leonardo drew with charles schultz – the brooklyn rail

7/24/2019 LEONARDO DREW with Charles Schultz – The Brooklyn Rail

https://brooklynrail.org/2019/07/art/LEONARDO-DREW-with-Charles-Schultz 1/19

ArtINCONVERSATION

LEONARDODREWwithCharlesSchultz

“Wearethenatureofnature”

JUL-AUG2019

PortraitofLeonardoDrew.PencilonPaperbyPhongBui.

NewYork

GalerieLelong&Co.May16–August2,2019

NewYork

MadisonSquareParkJune3–December15,2019

LeonardoDrew(b.1961)considershimselfanelderstatesmanoftheartworld.Inhisfirstexhibition,atage13,heshowedalargerthanlifepaintingofCaptainAmerica.Hisnaturaltalent



fordraftsmanshipearnedhimearlyopportunitiestoworkatprestigiouscomicbookpublisherslikeMarvelandDCComics,butDrewwasaftersomethingmoreelusive.IntheconversationthatfollowsDrewtalksaboutthechoiceshemadethatenabledhimtobeginearnestlycreatingart,theexperiencesandcollaboratorswhowereformativeinhisdevelopmentasanartist,andtheinfluenceoftravelonhislifeandhispractice.

ThissummerDrewisexhibitinghisfirstoutdoorsculpture,CityintheGrass,inMadisonSquareParkwhileasoloshowofDrew’snewworkisonviewatGalerieLelonginChelsea.WemetonasunnymorninginearlyJuneandspokeforanhourbesideDrew’sroom-sizesculpture,Number215.



LeonardoDrew,Number215,2019,Wood,paint,andsand.DimensionsVariable.Installationview:LeonardoDrew,GalerieLelong&Co.,NewYork,2019.©LeonardoDrew.CourtesyGalerieLelong&Co.

CharlesSchultz(Rail):IcountedNumber211to218inthisexhibition.Whathappenedtonumbers213and216?

LeonardoDrew:[Laughs]I’mwellknownforcannibalizingmyownwork.Ifyouweretocounttheearlyworks,Number8iskey,themotherpiecetoalltheworks.IstartwithNumber8,soyouaskwhatbecameofNumber1through7,wellthey’repartofNumber8(1988)actually.ThathasbecomeacontinuumofhowIapproachthings,howIrealizethings.Nothingissacredinthisstudio.I’malwaystakingbitsofthistomakethat,andrealizingthateachpiecehassomethingtosay.Whenitcomestolayeringandbecomingasolidifiedsituationoralife,youneedtohaveexperiences,andeachworkactuallyhasalevelofselfandexperiencethatcanassisttheothers,andthemoreyoubringtheseelementstogethertheybecomewiser,theybecomelarger,theytakeonthislargessethatyoucan’tdeny.Eventhethingsthatyouwouldconsiderfailures—thingsthatI'vegottenbackfromexhibitionsandstuff—Itakethemapartandtheyjustinevitablybecomebetter,becausethey’rejustlayeredwithlife.

Rail:That’sastrangethingtobeawareof,asaviewer.Lookingat,say,Number212(2018),andwonderingifitwillremainNumber212orifitwillbesubsumedbyalaterwork.Howdoyoumakethosekindsofchoices?



Drew:Wellit’stheresponsibilityofhavinganexhibition,workhastoleave.Collectorsmakechoices,andtheworksgetpulledaway.Sothatisactually,alotoftime,whatsavesalotofthesepieces.

Rail:ThatremindsmeofsomethingIreadelsewhere,aboutyourphilosophyoftheviewer:howtheviewercompletestheworkwhentheworkbecomesamirrorfortheviewer.Howtheworkoperatesonmoreenergiesthanjustyourown—



LeonardoDrew,Number212,2018,Woodandpaint,125x132x56inches.©LeonardoDrew.CourtesyGalerieLelong&Co.

Drew:Yes,theviewerisabsolutelycomplicitinrealizingthework.I’vealwaystakenthatonasaphilosophy,thatit’snotjustmyjourneybutacollectiveone.AsImoveforwardandcreate,I’malsolearning.Imeanit’snotthiskindofvacuumwhereI’mall-knowing,thatwouldberidiculous,andIthinkthatasyouallowfortheseotherexperiences—otherpeople’sexperiences—tobecomeyours,theworkbecomesricher,wiser.

Inumbertheworksforthatverysamereason,becauseifIgaveyouahintofwhatI’mthinking,youmightjusttakeitandrunwithit,andthatwouldjustcompletelywipeoutyourexperience.Youknow?Andyouneedtohavethat—Iwantyoutohavethatexperience,asaviewer.Forme,that’sthemostimportantthing.

Ihadthisoneexperienceactually,attheHirshhornMuseum,thatisagreatexample.Wehadthismonstrosityofapiecethattookonthewholeinteriorofthisroom,andthesecurityguard,hehadtoprettymuchhavethisthinginhisfaceallthewhile,soitwasdrivinghimcrazybuthestartedtosortofseethings,andwhoeverwalkedinthatroom,couldbeatourorsomething,he’dtakeituponhimselftotellthemwhatthisworkisabout.[Laughter]

Rail:Whatsortofthingsdidhesay?

Drew:WellIhappenedtobeintheroomwhenitwashappeningoneday,andmyfriendwaslike,“Youhavetostophim!He’sjustlikesayinganything!”AndIsaid,“No,we’regonnalearnsomethingnow.”SointheendIsteppeduptohimandasked,“Where’dyougetallthat?”andhesays,“Theartisttoldme.”[Laughter]

Rail:That’sgreat.

Drew:Maybethiswastrue,ifhe’sstandinginfrontofthepiecetothepointwhereheabsolutelybelievesthatwhatheissayingiswhatthispieceisabout,youknow?Anditwasinterestingbecausepeoplewerechallenginghimtoo,they’dask“Sowhatisthis?”and“Whatdoesthismeanthen?”and“Idon’tthinkthat’sit.”Itwasabeautifulexperiencewatchingthattrade-offbetweenpeoplewhofeltverystrongly.ifIhadtoldthosepeoplewhattothinktheywouldhavestoppedrightthere,andsothisiswhatit’sallaboutforme.



Rail:I’vegotaquestion,ormaybemoreofanobservationreally,aboutthisworkthatwe’resittingbeside[Number215,(2019)].Itseemsfasterthaneverythingelse.Imean,I’vealwaysthoughtofyourprocessasslow,meticulous,andyourworkasanexpressionofthatkindoflabor.Thispiecefeelsdifferent.Maybeit’sthedebrisyouleftonthefloor,orthefactthatIcanseetheheadsofthenailsthatareholdingsomeofthesesmallerbitstothewall,andbecauseofthosenailheadsIthinkofthatsingular,fastaction—drivinghomethenail—anditjustfeels,well,fasterforlackofabetterword.

Drew:Absolutely.

Rail:Canyoutalkaboutwhat’sdifferentforyou,inthispiece?

Drew:First,I’malive,soI’mtakingonallthesedifferentexperiences.I’vespentalotoftimeduringthepastfouryearsinChina,aplacecalledJingdezhen.China’sabsolutelyanotherplanet.Theyhaveavery,verydifferentapproachtohowtheygetthingsdone,howtheycometogethercollectively.Ihadafullonexperienceworkingwiththisfoundrywhereweweremakingporcelain,andfollowingatraditionthatwasover1,000yearsold.Imeanthisisgroundzeroforporcelain,glazing,ImeanitisChina!andhereIam,droppedintothisplace,justbecauseofonejourneyofwalkingthrough.

Rail:How?Why?

Drew:YougottaunderstandthatImovearoundalot,justtogroundmyselfinthesekindsofplaces.Ibecomeasortofantennareceivinginformationliterallyfromthesoil.LimainPeruisoneoftheseplacesItraveledtojusttoseetheNazcaLines,andjustsortofstudyandtouchthesecradlesofcivilization.Justbybeingthere,I’mtakinginwhateverthatplacehastooffer.IfIwasamusician,Iwouldbemakingmusicaboutit;ifIwasapoetI’dbewritingaboutit,butI’manartistandsoI’mvisual,andIthinkthatabsolutelywouldbethewayI'dgiveitback.Iwouldabstractit,ofcourse,becauseyouhavetodigest,ithastogothroughyourbodyandnothavetohanditbacktoyou.So,whenIplacedmyselfinChinaIknewthatitwouldbereallyashattering—ashaking—andIwouldbebroughtinandturnedupsidedown.Andthat’sexactlywhathappened,thekindofworkthatI’mproducingnowhaseverythingtodowiththatexperience,itwasfullon.IwassetintothisfoundryafterIdidmyexplorationofChina,whichwaslike,actuallygoingtotheGreatWall,ForbiddenCity,alloftheseplacesyouneedtosortofsee.



LeonardoDrew,Number215(detail),2019.Wood,paint,andsand.DimensionsVariable.©LeonardoDrew.CourtesyGalerieLelong&Co.

Rail:JingdezhenisintheSouth.Theseareinthenorth,indifferentprovinces.



Drew:Iwasmovingallarounddifferentprovinces.IthoughtthatIwantedtoworkwithporcelain,becauseitissofarremovedfromthekindsofmaterialsIusuallyworkwith,soIsaid“Okay,whatwouldhappenifIcommittedtothissituation?”So,firstthingisIneedtoknowwhatitwouldentail.Imeanhowdoesakilnwork?howdoesglazingwork?thattypeofthing.SoIhadtomovearounddifferentprovinces,andinthatprocessIwenttodifferentfoundriesandunderstoodthatdependingonwhereyouweretheearthitself—theactualdirt,whichiswhattheclayismadefrominordertomakeporcelain—itdiffersdependingonwhatprovinceyou’rein.Soyou’regonnagetadifferentpiecejustbasedonhowthecolorglazesaffectorareaffectedbytheearthyou’reworkingwith,theclay.

Rail:CanyoutellmemoreaboutthecoloringandthepatterninginNumber215?BecauseafterseeingthisandthengoingtoseeyournewinstallationatMadisonSquarePark,Inoticedthatthecolorsandthetextureshaveacertainkinship.



LeonardoDrew,CityintheGrass,2019,InstallationviewinMadisonSquarePark,NewYork.Aluminum,sand,wood,cottonandmastic.102x32feet.Collectiontheartist,courtesyTalleyDunnGallery,GalerieLelongandAnthonyMeierFineArts.Photo:HunterCanning.CourtesyMadisonSquareParkConservancy.

Drew:Wellthepieceintheparkcamefirst.

Rail:Really?

Drew:Yes,215interceptedthepieceintheparkbecauseitwaslike“Okay,youneedtodoanexhibition!”Intheendthecolors,theyarenowmine,andmyapproach,eventhecutcarpetpatternsthatareinthatpiece.Colorhasabsolutelybeenaddedtomyvocabulary,it’spartofmylanguagenow.I’vebeeninthestudioworkingthesethingsthrough,andthisismeactuallyallowingsomethingoutofthestudio.Ithasacommittedapproachtocolor,andcompositionallyspeakingandalsophysically,Ithinkit’sjustlimitless.Soyou’recatchingmeatamomentwhereI’mliftingandreachingagain.Yeah,“reaching”Icallit.

Rail:Howdoesthatfeel?

Drew:[Laughs]Youknow,Ithinkthebestpossibleplacethatanartistcanfindhimselfisaplacewherehedoesn’tknow,andIcontinuetodothat.ThisisjustanothersituationwhereI'minaplacewhereIdon’tknow,andit’sthebestpossiblepositionyoucanbein.

Rail:IlikeyouruseofnegativespaceintheMadisonSquareParkinstallation.Ilikehowitletsthegrassthroughbutalsothemetaphoricalsuggestionofatornorwornoutcarpet.ThataspectofbeingtornorrippedisalsopresentinNumber215—

Drew:Itwasattacked.[Laughter]

Rail:Itlooksthatway.Maybethat’swhatIwasregisteringwhenItalkingaboutitfeeling“faster”thanyourotherwork.Eventhoughit’sobviouslyabuiltthing,itputsofftheenergyofsomethingcomingapart,orexploding,orshattering,whereastherestoftheworkfeelsmoreevidentlyaccumulativeand“built,”andnotsothrashed.

Drew:Thatwasbefore,andthisisafter.Rememberwhatweweresayingabouttheviewerbeingcomplicit?Thepieceintheparkactuallyputsthatphilosophytothetest.Thatpieceallowsyoutostandonit,walkonit,climbit—youcanbetheweather.Youcanbeatransformativevehicleforthispiecetoreachitsnextformofself,andItrustthatasameansofreachingthenextspiritualrealizationofthatpiece.

YesterdaywhenitopenedIsawkidspullingatthetowersandtheywereabletoyankoffsomeofthelittlesquaresandtheyweretossingthem,andIthought,“thisisbeautiful,”becausethispieceisgonnabecomethiswholeotherbeing.Thepieceneedstofindthat,thisideaoftakingsomethingthat’sbrandnewandactuallybecomingweather.Wearenotseparatefromnaturalforces.Wearethenatureofnature,sothereshouldbenoseparation.I'vealwaysunderstoodthisconcept,butthispiecerepresentstheonetimewhentheactualpublic—whenIsaythey’recomplicit,thisiswhenthey’reabsolutelyapartofthecreativeprocess,andinthatwayIthinkit’sreallyalearningexperienceforme.

Rail:Whydidyoutitlethatpiece?



LeonardoDrew,CityintheGrass,2019,InstallationviewinMadisonSquarePark,NewYork.Aluminum,sand,wood,cottonandmastic.102x32feet.Collectiontheartist,courtesyTalleyDunnGallery,GalerieLelongandAnthonyMeierFineArts.Photo:HunterCanning.CourtesyMadisonSquareParkConservancy.

Drew:[Laughs]BecauseofmyloveforBrookeRapaport,whoisthecurator,shegrabbedaholdofthattitle.Itwasaworkingtitleinthestudiobecauseinthestudiotherearenonumbers.Ihavetobeabletopointandsay“weneedtohavethe1-2-3,”or“theblackparagraph,”or“cityinthegrass,”weneedtobeworkingonthistoday.It’sjustsignifiers.Wedon’tworkwithnumbersbecausethenumbersareforcataloging,really.AndsoBrookecaughtholdofthatworkingtitleandeventhoughIdon’ttitlethingsinthiscaseIalloweditbecauseofher.

Soitwaslikeokay,CityintheGrass,thisisgonnabethefirstiterationofthispiece;it’sgonnabethisundulating,woodencarpet,thatisgonnatakeonthecenterofthepark.AndasIwentforward,Iwaslikeokay,IamgoingtoChina,colorishappening,soallofasuddentheworkbecomesinvadedbyallthesenewthingsthatareoccuring,soitjustmakessensetobringthatintothework.Ialreadyhadtheideathatthiswasasortofundulatingcarpetinmyhead,butitwaslikeokay,Persianrugs,andthenalsothekidswhoplayoutsideofmystudio,theyalwayspointatmypieceswhenthey’reonthefloor,theylooklikecityscapes.Ijustkeptgrabbingatallofthesethingsthatwerehappening;likeIsaid,I'malive—I'mnotmakingartinavacuum—soallthesethingsareinfluencinghowI'mperceivingnextiterationsofselfandthenextbodyofwork.

LivinginthetypeofneighborhoodthatIlivein,movingaroundChina,beingopentosuggestion,andknowingthatyou’renotgonnanecessarilyparkitandsay“thisismysignature”—I'mopentoallthesethingsthatareoccurringaroundme,andtheywillabsolutelyinvadeandbecomepartofthework.WhenIsawthepieceintheparkforthefirsttimewiththepublicactuallyinteractingwithit,itwasreallybeautiful.

Rail:Whatothertimesinyourpracticehaveyouhadanexperiencelikethis?

Drew:Likethis?Never.[Laughs]

Rail:Really?

Drew:No.IthoughttheexperienceIhadattheHirshhornwiththesecurityguardandknowingthatyou’reallowingpeopletofindthemselvesinthework,that’sallabeautifulartspeak,buttoactuallyhavesomeonewalkontopofit,climbit—thathappensinthestudio.ThepiecethattheMetowns—thatpieceactuallyhasafootprintyoucansee,andIknowwhy,Iknowhowthatfootprinthappened:Iworkonthefloor.

Rail:Inoticedthefootprintsinthispiecetoo.[Laughs]

Drew:Yes,thesethingsaremadeonthefloorandI’mwalkingacrossthemtogettothispartofitorthatpartofit,andhavingthatkindofapproachtomakingthings—realizingthatnothingissacred—allthesethingsarejustapartoflife,thenyeah,indeed,itsetsyouupforsomethingthat’sinthepark.ThatkindofexperiencewasalreadyembeddedinhowIapproachmywork,itisabsolutelyalive.Andit’sawelcomeintotheworldthatIjustdragorpullbythenose,youneedtosortoflikebringitin,andithastogetdirty.

Rail:Thatsoundslikehowalotofartistsgetintroducedtoart,justsortofpulledbythenose,gettingdirty.[Laughter].Howaboutyou?YouwenttoCooper[Union]inthe’80s.Whatwasthatlike?

Drew:Well,Imean,you’vegottoimaginewhatNewYorkwaslikeinthe’80s.TheEastSidewasprettymuchaburnt-outshell.Youlookatanyofthemovies,whicharekindoftimecapsulesofthatperiod,likeDowntown81withJean-MichelBasquiat.Imean,listen,themusicscenewas



p qhappening,MuddClub,itwasreallypopping.ItwasNewYorkwithteeth,andforastudent,movingaroundNewYork,prettymuchbuttnakedfromBridgeport,Connecticut,havingthiskindofexperienceinthemostexcitingbutdangerouscity,itwasdangerousthen.IfyoustraytoofarintotheEastSideyougetbeatup,ifyoustraytoofarintotheWestSide,you’dgetmolested—andallthesethingsthatI'mdescribingarethingsthatactuallyhappened,soImeanitwas,gettingonthetrainwasalwaysdicey.

Rail:Whatwasyourcommute?

Drew:WellIwaslivinginWashingtonHeights,whichiswayuptown.YoucouldseetheBronx,andthatwasanotherburnt-outshell.Allthesethingsandplaceshavebeengentrified.NewYork’sbeenscrubbedclean,butitwasanexcitingplacetobeifyouwerecreative.LikeIsaid,themusicscenewaspopping,artwaspopping—thekindofartthatfollowedafterthisperiodwherecollectorscouldnotreallyfindthingsthatwerecollectible,likeSmithsonduringthe’70s,youcan’tcollectthat,youknowwhatImean?

Therewasalotofgreatarthappeningatthattimeandthoseartistsweremakingtheseinterestingstatements,butithadverylittletodowithcollecting.Sowhatinevitablyendeduphappeningwasthatwhenthe’80shit,therewasthisrawhungerforartworkthatyoucouldcollect.SopeoplelikeLeoCastelliandMaryBoonecameinwithanarmyofartistslikeSchnabel,DavidSalle,KeithHaring,Jean-MichelBasquiat.Itwasanexcitingtime,andalotofthesecollectorsendedupgettingthatart,andmanymuseumsactuallysortofrefusedtoacceptitasart,whichissortofinterestingnowthatthingshaveshifted,butalotoftheartthatIsawbackthenyoucan’tevenseeinmuseums,butcollectorshaveit.Therewasalotofgreatstuffhappening.Itwasmyintroductiontowhatartlookedlike—whereitwasheaded.

IknewpeoplelikeRobertLongoandhewasalwaystellingme,“Yougottacomeout,yougottacomeout,”andyouknowIlookedatwhatIwasmaking,andwhatwasactuallybeingcreatedatthattime,andIknewthatitwasnotmymoment.Iwasworkingwithcarcassesanddeadanimals,youknow,tiedintothethings,anditwaskindofoutthere.

Rail:ButyoustartedatParsons,right?HowdidyouendupswitchingtoCooper?

Drew:IdidtwoyearsatParsons.MyreasonforcomingtoNewYorkwasactuallytoexplorefineart,butwhatParsonswasreallygoodatwasillustration,graphicdesign,andsoIjustwentintothatdepartmentbecauseIhadthatfacility.EarlieronIwasaskedbyDCandMarvelComicstoworkforthem,thatwasinlike’77orsomethinglikethat,twoyearsbeforeIdecidedthatIwouldgoontoschool.

Therewasanumberofteachersthatwerereallywonderful,butintheend,IneededtobesomewherewhereIwasgoingtoreallylearn,andsoIheardaboutthisschool,CooperUnion,whereifyougotin,it’sfree.SoIthought,okay,Ihavetogooverandtrytogetin.AndIrememberdoingthatapplication,Ididitovernight.Ididn’tspendanytimeshowingoffmyfacilitybecauseIhadafriendthattriedtogetintheyearbeforeandcouldn’tgetin.Heusedallhisfacility!Imeanhewasextremelytalented,butheonlyshowedhecoulddrawreallywell,paintreallywell.Andhedidn’tgetin.SoIsaidwell,youknow,Icantellthatthat’snotthedirectionIshouldgoin,andsowhatIdidwasIwentallovertheplace,Ididthisandthisandthatandjustwentallin.[Laughter]

ThatwashowIgotintoCooperUnionandthatwastheframingofwhat,youknow,NewYorkwaslikeatthattime,wasthemostexcitingplacetobe,andbeingatCooperUnionandthekindofteachersthatwerethere—JulioMitchel,JackWhitten,HansHaacke—therewerejustamazingteachers.Ihadthepleasureandalsothehonorofbeingapartofthatschoolatthattime.Itwasreallyabeautifultime.

Rail:JackWhittenisanartistwhoserelationshipIwantedtolearnmoreabout.



Drew:WellImeanJack,hetookapersonalinterest.HeintroducedmetoartistslikeRomareBearden,JacobLewis,MelvinEdwards,andJoeOverstreet.Iwasintroducedtoaworldofartiststhatlooklikeme.They’reBlackartists,buthonestlytheywereunderthecouch,theywereabstractartists,theywerenotacceptedintothemainstream.Surethey’relovednow,butbackthen—itwasashame—butwekindofalmostacceptedthatthiswasjustourlives,thatwecreateandintheendithasverylittletodowithanideaofsuccess.IhadsomeoneactuallycallmefromArtforumdoinganarticleonJackandaskedtheverysamequestionlike,“Ohwasn’titsomethingthatevenwithoutsuccesshewasmakinghiswork?”andIsaid,“Wellthathasverylittletodowithit;he’sanartistinanattic,hehastomakeart,”youknow,soreallyintheendasyousortofpushforward,artissomething,it’samonster,youhavetofeedit,ifyou’reanartistyouhavetofeedthatsideofyourself,otherwiseitbecomesacurse.Ithinkallartists,realartistsunderstandthis,ImeanJackabsolutelyunderstoodit.

Rail:AnothercollaborationthatIamcurioustolearnmoreaboutisyourworkwithMerceCunninghamin’95onGroundLevelOverlay.FromwhatI’vereadthatseemedlikeareallyimportantpieceforMerce.

Drew:Formealso!



LeonardoDrew,Number47,1995,Canvas,compressedpaper,feathers,paint,plastic,rope,straw,string,wire,andwood,96x120x12inches(243.8x304.8x30.5cm).Setdesignfor"GroundLevelOverlay",aproductionoftheMerceCunninghamDanceCompany,NewYork,NewYork(c)LeonardoDrew.CourtesyGalerieLelong&Co.

Rail:Whatwasthatlike?HowdidyougetinvolvedwithMerce?

Drew:Mercehadafriendwhoownedapieceofmineandhewouldmeditateinfrontofthispiece.It’stheverysamepiece,actually,thattheMetownsnow,agiganticpiecefromthatsame’92exhibition.

Rail:What’sthenumber,doyouremember?

Drew:Number24(1992),andit’sarustedcottonpiece,goingthroughoutthisrustedwallwiththesesortofcottonbunches.Merceusedtomeditateinfrontofthispiece.Andwhenitcametimeforhimtoselectanartisttoworkwithhesaid,“I’dliketoworkwithLeonardo.”SohecalledmeandtellsmethisstoryofhimmeditatinginfrontofthispieceandiswonderingifI’dbeinterestedinworkingwithhim,andIsay“Letmecallyouback,”youknow.Ididn’tknowwhothisguywas,itwasnotmyworld,soIhadtocallaroundandask“Who’sthisguyMerceCunningham?”Andpeoplesaid,“Man,hewantstoworkwithyou?Youdothat,youdothatshit,”Youknow,soIcalledbackandsaid,“Let’sdoitbaby.”

Hisformforworkingisthathe’llaskanartisttodotheirthing,Mercedoesthechoreography,thephrasing,andthenhe’llaskamusiciantomakethemusic—allseparatefromoneanother.Alltheseelementscometogetheropeningnightforthefirsttime.Soyou’reoffdoingyourthing,everybody’soffdoingtheirthing,andit’sjustchance.Iaskedhimwhathappensifit’saflop?Andhesaidwellyouknowthatdoeshappen,butit’shisfaith,youknow,thisideaofcreatingthesedifferentelementsseparatelyfromoneanother,thenbringingthemtogether.Iusethatverysameformulainmyownwork.Soindeed,IincorporatehisphilosophicalapproachintohowIapproachlife,andactuallythroughoutmycareerprocess.Beingaroundhimmeantgettinganideaonwhatitmeanstosacrifice,andalsoallowchancetobeapartoffindingoutwhat’sontheotherside.Intermsofmydevelopmenthewasoneofthekeyfigures,besidesJack.

Rail:Wellonethingthathasn’tchangedverymuchbetweenthe’90sandnowistheprocessorientationofyourwork.Atwhatpointinyourartisticlifedidyourealizethatyouwerehappyinthatzoneofhouruponhourofslow,almostmeditativework?

Drew:Growingupinthishouseholdoffivebrothers...

Rail:Whereareyouinthespread?

Drew:I’mthesecond,numbertwo.Weallsharedaroomandtheywereabletoleapovermebecauseitwasasmallroom.Sotheywerejumpingaroundmelikefleasonahotbrick,andI’mjustsortoflike,“I’mmakingwork,”andthey’rejustjumpingoverit,kickingthepaintbrushoutofmyhand,there’sallthisnoisehappeningaroundme.Eventothisday,Iactuallyhavetohavetelevisionsonallover.

Rail:Really?

Drew:Ohyeah,twotelevisionsoninthestudio,andupstairsit’salwaysontoo.Wehavetheguysmovingaroundthestudio,there’sconversationshappening,Ineedthatkindof—Iwouldn’tcallitwhitenoise—it’sactuallylikeacatalyst,anenergizer.Ineedtohavethosekindsofthingsaroundme,butwithinthatIamliketheIsleofSanityinaseaofchaos.Sothat’showthatis,andthat’swhatit’salwaysbeen.

Ineedtobeabletonavigatethroughthis,likeacalmwithinastorm.Ineedtobeabletomakesenseofallthatandbeabletobringitintothework.InordertodothatIneedtobefocused,



sothatprocess—thisisthefirsttimeI’veactuallytalkedaboutit,butIknowthatitistrue—it’sjusttheIliveandthewayIcreate.

Rail:What’syourrelationshiplikewiththecommunitiesyouengagewiththroughyourwork?

Drew:Myrelationshipwithcommunities?Iembedmyself.I’malwaysincommunitiesthataremadeupofregularfolks.Inmyneighborhoodnowtheydon’tknowwhoIam.I'mtheguythatmakestheskatingrampsforthekids,givesoutboxingglovessotheycangetoutandfighteachother.I’malsothedangerousguybecausethey’llaskforthingslikeropes,andthey’llsay“Wewannatieourbikestogetherlikeatrainandpullthemalong,”I’mtheguythatsays,“Letmegetyouarope!”[Laughs]

Somyassistantswillsay“That’sabadidea!You’remakingrampsforthekids!”Andthekidsarelike,“Okay,Leonardo,couldyoumakeusaramp?Becausewewannajumpourbikesonthisramp,”andsoImakethemaramp,andthenIgooutsideandthereareabunchofkidsdownontheground,andthey’retryingtojumpoverthemwiththeramp,andI’mtheguythatsays,“Letmegetthecamera,I’llberightback!”I’mthatguyintheneighborhood.

There’sneveramomentwhereI’mnotaliveenoughtounderstandthatpeoplearelivingthistypeoflife,I’mlivingthistypeoflife,andthere’sthistradeoff—thissynergy—betweenbodiesandexperiences.Idon’tneedtotellthemwhoIamtohavethisfullonlifeexperiencewiththepeopleinmyneighborhood.There’sdefinitelyabeautyinthat,andIcanjustliveakindoflifethat,forme,isgroundedinrealstuff,andthenIcangointhestudioandit’slikeIborrowfromallofthat.

Rail:Whenyousay“realstuff,”whatdoyoumeanbythat?

Drew:Well,IthinkIkindofhoveroverstuff.I’makindofetherealpersonwhomovesaroundalot.I’veneverbeenmarried,Idon’thavechildren,I’mnotconventional,butI’malive.AndI’mbringingallthisinformation,mybodygetsupandmovesaroundwheneveritneedstoinordertogatherinformation.It’salifethat’scommitted,veryfocused,butatthesametimeIknowwhoIaminthispicture.IfyouweretopointIwouldsaythat’sme,andthat’ssomethingelse,soinunderstandingthat,Icanactuallyhaveanhonestpushforwardinordertocreateandtakeininformation,bringit,abstractit,andthenhanditbacktoyou,butIhavetounderstandwhoIaminthatpicturethough.

Rail:Doyoufeelanycompulsiontobeateacheroramentor?

Drew:Ithinkmakingworkisit.Imean,I’vebeengivenagiftandI’mhandingitback.Teachingwouldbesomethingelse,butthisisprobablythebestiterationofwhatIcanactuallyhandover.[Laughs]

Rail:Maybe,tobemoreclear,whatI’mwonderingiswhethersomeonelikeyourselfwho’sbeenactivelyinvolvedintheartworldforlikefourdecades,ifyougainaperceptionofartwork,ofyoungartists—ofanyartists—andanabilitytorecognizeakinshipwithsomeonewhoisjuststartingout,maybeyourecognizetheirenergy,ortheirconfusion.Doesthateverhappen?

Drew:ThathappensbecauseofhowImovearound,that’sapartofmylifethat’sbeenacontinuum.Notintheclassroom,ofcourse,butjustinthatI'mmeetingpeople,peopleconnectthemselvestoyou.ReallyatthispointI’manelderstatesman,sotheywillfindme.I’mnotamystery.Iamfindable.



LeonardoDrew,Untitled,BassickHighSchool,Bridgeport,Connecticut.Courtesytheartist.

Actually,Ihadaninterestingexperiencewithmyoldhighschoolbecauseofsocialmedia.Thekidsareabletofindwhoyouare,whowenttothisschoolorwhatever,andtheyknewwhoIwas—we’retalking35yearslater.Sothesekidswereaskingmetocomebacktotheschool,tocomebacktoBridgeport,Connecticut,whichisalwaysbankrupt,andtheschoolsarejustfallingapart.Sothekidswerelike“Okay,canyoucomeandactuallytalktous?”SoIsaid,“Yeah,Icandothat,”andIdid.Isaid,“Actually,Iwanttomakeapiece,”whichwasthisgigantictreepiece—awallpiecethat’sintheshapeofatree—andbroughtthatwithme.Itwascarvedoutonplywood,andverydetailed,andItoldthem,“Youcanaddtothispiece.Youcanwriteyourdreams,yourhopes,writethemonleaves,”whichweaddedtothebranches.



Rail:Whatbecameofthistreepiece?

Drew:It’sstillthereattheschool,theyownthepiece.Sothenewgenerationofkidswhoarecomingthrough,theycandothatverysamething.They’rejustaddingtheirideasandtheirdreamstothispiece.

Rail:Speakingofideasanddreams,youmaybeanelderstatesmanbutyoustillhavealotofyoungenergy.Whatareyourhopesanddreams?

Drew:Me?Justtokeepliving.I’llkeepaddingnewthings,andkeepplacingmyselfinpositionswhereIdon’tknow,whereit’sgonnabeamystery,whereit’sgonnabeasurprise.I'mnottryingtofigureoutanythingwithanysortofexactitude.I'mfullonalive.

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CharlesSchultz

CharlesSchultzisManagingEditoroftheBrooklynRail.

leonardo drew with charles schultz – the brooklyn rail

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