Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Council

THURSDAY, 23 OCTOBER 1919

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

1518 Resignation of Mr. Hunter. [COUNCIL.] Seajorth Estate Hill.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

THURSDAY, 23 OCTOBER, 1919.

The PRESIDEKT (Hon. W. Hamilton) took the chair at half-past 3 o'clock p.m.

PAPERS.

The following paper was laid on the table, and ordered to be printed:-

Sewnth report of the Public Service Superannuation Board.

The following papers were laid on the table:-

Statements of Yarious companies under the Life Assnranco Companies Act of 1901.

CO:'\STITVTIO:--J ACT AME:--JDMENT BILL, No. 2.

THIRD READIKG.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES (Hon. A. J. Jones): I beg to move-That the Bil1 be now read a third time.

Hox. P. J. LEAHY: It is not usual to ·<lobate Bills on the motion for the third reading, but en:n at this stage l wish to 0ntcr a protest against the passing of this Bill and tho manner in \Yhich it has been forced through the Council, .and to protest against Parliatncnt Yoting rnoncy in this way without consulting the people. I do not se& n1uch use in calling for a division, because \.Ve arc in the sarno position as "\VC \Vere last night.

Question put and passed. The Dill was pac wd, and ordered to be

returned to the Assembly by message in the usual form.

SEAFORTH REPURCHASED ESTATE BILL.

THIRD READDfG. On the motion of the SECRETARY FOR

MI2\IES, the Bill was roa·d a third time.

TITLE.

The SECRETARY FOR ;\liNES moved that the title of the Bill be-

,, A Bill to omtblc the Soaforth Estate, acquired under tlw Agricultural Lands Purchase Act of 1894. to be dealt with as Crown land under and subject to the Land Act·,, 1910 to 1918.'.

Hox. A. G. C, HA WTHOR::'-1: Last night the Minieter ga vc us rather a silly answer to a question that I put with reference to the po1-vcr of the 'I'reasurcr to take any proceeds. of the sa le of this land and put them to any account he chooS0 '. I would like to know whether the Minister has considemd the matter since he gave that ans\Ycr, and whether he can g"iYe us any more definite information as to wlnt the last two lines of the proviso in clau;;;e 2 actually rnean?

The SECRETARY FOR MI:--JES: I have nothing to add to the Ycry lucid explanation I gave last night. I got the information

Succession Act, Etc., Bill. [23 OcTOBER.] Savings Bank Act, Etc., Bal. 1519

from the Treasurer, but I have not inquired f-urther into the matter, as I understood last night that the hon. gentleman was quite satisfied.

Hon. A. G. C. HAWTHORN: I withdrew the idea of n1oving an amendrncnt, but I was not satisfied, and I thoug.ht that possiblv to-day you would have obtained some more definite information on the point.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: The elause is quite clear. It provides that the moneys received from time to time shall be placed to the credit of the Closer Settlement Acts Trust Account (Seaforth Estate) in the books of the Treasury.

Hon. A. G. C. HAW'l'HORN: But v:hat do the last two lines of the proviso say ?

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: The Treasurer informed me last night that those two lines were inserted so that it would be possible to trace all the moneys obtained from the sale of the land from time to time_

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: It is really to emible the Treasurer to put the money into the consolidated rovonuo instead of reducing the debt on the estate.

The SRCRETARY FOR MINES: The hon. gentleman is not correct in that assump­tion. Ho must know that the Seaforth Estah' has been a very ba-d bargain, and that no intcn •t has been debited to the account since tho year 1910. That in itself explains the reason for tho last two lines of the pnn·iso. The object of the Bill is to get the land settled as quickly as possible, and to provide that any moneys received shall be paid to the credit of the Seaforth Estate Account.

Hon. A. G. C. HAWTHORN: It does not say so.

'l'he SECRETARY FOR MI~ES: "Cnloss the Governor in Council otherwise directs later on.

Hon. I'. J. LEAHY: \Yhich he is sure to do.

The SECHETARY FOR MINES: I think that tho clause is self-explanatory, and tlHJ hon. gentleman should be satisfied with tho information I gave him 1 ast night.

The PRESIDE:.JT: I would like to draw the attention of the Council to the fact that the question ha<'< boon raised at the wrong time. I did not want to prevent the Hon. Mr. Hawthorn obtaining the information, hut the question has nothing whatcyer to do with the title of the Bill. It should have boon asked on the motion for the third reading of the Bill. It is quite out of ordpr to raise any such question on the motion for the title.

Question put and passed. The Bill was ordered to be returned to the

Assembly by message in the usual form.

SUCCESSION ACT OF 1906 DECLARA­TORY BILL.

CO:.VDUTTEE.

(H10n. 11'. F. Taylor ln the chair.)

Clauses 1 and 2 put and passed. The Council resumed. The CHAIR~IAN

reported the Bill without amendment; and the report was adopted.

The third reading of the Bill was made an Order of the Day for the next sitting day.

QUEENSLA:"<D GOVER:.Jl\1ENT SAVINGS BA"'K ACT AMENDMENT BILL.

CONTDfGE:<IT MOTION-A:.VIENDMENT Ol!' SECTION 16.

On the Or,dcr of the Day being called for the consideration of this Bill in Committee,

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES said: I beg to lYlOVe~

" That it be an instruction to the Com­mittee that thoy have power to amend section 16 of the principal Act, by pro­vi cling that notice, as far as practicable, be given to depositors of unclaimed deposits above the value of two pounds or otherwise as to this Council may seem fit."

I think the Minister will probably have no objc>etion whatever to the course I propose. If the Committee ,arc allowed to do as I propose, they will have an opportunity of inserting a very yaluable, and I hope usefnl, provision in the Savings Bank Act, at the Barnc tin1c as we arc arnending it in another direction.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: I have not ha-d time to consider the instruction moved by the Hon. Mr. Fowlcs, notice of which >~as given yesterday; nor have I had time to consult the leader of the Government and the Treasurer. I understand that the motion is that it be an instruction to the Committee to amend the Bill in a direction which woLrld otherwise be outside the scope of the Bill, and is necessary in order that the hon. gentleman may have an opportunity of insertiug his amendment in the Bill. I cannot, of course, anticipate the amendment which is to be propose-d, but, judging from the speech of the hon. gentleman last night, I understand that it will interfere with a money section in the principal Act.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: Nonsense; this does not deal with a rnoncy provision.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: I only :mticipato that it will deal with a money s0etion, and if such a clause is proposed I shall ask the ruling of the Chairman as to whether it will be competent for this House to interfere with the present Act by altering the rate of interest.

l-Ion_ P. J. LEAHY: The amendment does not mean that.

The SECHETARY FOR MINES: I have not risen to oppose the motion at this parti­ctrlar stage. Had I wished to oppose the motion, I would have opposed it last night. However, we shall be able to judge of the rncrits of the arrwndrnont vvhcn it cornes before us in Committee.

Question put and passed.

CO'\DJJT1'EE, (Hon. W. P. 'l.'aylor in the chai•·.)

Clause 1-" Short title and construction of .ilct"-put and passed.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES moved the inser­tion, after clause 1, of the following new clause:-

" The following amendments are made in section sixteen of the principal Act:-

" (i.) In subsection (2) the words 'three pounds' are repealed and the words 'one pound' arc inserted in lieu thereof.

Hon. E. W. H. Fowles.]

Que( tsland G01·emrnent Savin~·" [COUNCIL.] Bank Act Amendment Bill.

pay nn:v

m but

of tho on the list.

or had be that thcv

of pounds ilr to keep their have forgotten

or it might be to a happi-e1· very clear in

only defect in waf} not to thnt only upwards were

arncndrnont as shou]J make the

nwtter of faf-t,

period of fonrb'on yoa.rs bcinc: satisi\cd that special

for the allowance of tho mnc'IHlnlent he pror1oscd n1ight

cou:e in cx<.:ec~ding-ly handy in the ( 'tso of the 46,000 rnen 'vho ]nuJ gone across to the other sidC', or to tho::;c dorv)ndcnt~, if ihoso 1:~1011 hnr1 left sn1a1l a.rnounts in th8 G:overn-

S<lYings Bank. 1 1he \Yills of soldiers sailors ''Tore n1ade in a hurried fashion,

nmn who had left Queensland might the ti1n0 any small bank bala,nce lw.vc had before he left thn State.

gcntlPn1f'u would look at the list thev sec 1t was fairly con1plcte.

The 8EORETARY FOR 1\lrxES: \Vhat is the number in the last list?

Hox. E. vY. H. FOWLES: It appeared in the "Government Gazette," No. 151, volume (Xi ii.

The SECRETARY FOR ii!IINES: Is it very lrcngthy.

HoK. R W. H. FOWLES: No; four pages. He thought tho hon. gentleman would see

[Hon. E. W. H. Fowles.

uc;oful

The FOE 1\lE\lES : He ''""''tc•d in view of tbe fact that

rcforcnco to the hon. pcnnission to rnovo an tlw scope of tho Bill, that

ho clid nnt receive ULlmJdnlP~Jt, othPrw1~e he \Yould

cnn'-idcn'cl the n1atter. 1n the short at his dispoS<d, he ha.d not bP en able

v"ry much thought to it. He had hint a. lung list of thA na,nles and

of depo.,itors holding unclaimed The ouly dangr>r he savv vvas that

list -would be considorablv increased if reduced tho arnount. ,

\\'. : It. would bo very thP list to each

wiped out in s1x

t:INES: He direct "av of

information his credit than by

a long in the '' G-overnn1ont The amounL in thf) list which he

all o\·r:r £3, in accordance with the

A. G. C. li:,'v'rHORN: What is the a.n1ount?

It is there-that (Laughter.)

FOR IYII-='ES: Some 1'i'Ofl'Y as Inuch n,bout £1

He could not say amonnt of work and unncccssarv

t,ho an1endn1cnt nllF!,'ht iuvolvc th~ in. Apart from the objections

raised, the amendment did not seem to bfc unrcos'ntable. He did not intend to

fnrther objection to it, but would to go to the mbiy. where the

n1lght see in somo -~-irtue v .. -hich not.

Ho:--;. G. PAGE-HA""\IFY: He wn,s clis­appointcrl th.tt tlw Hon. Mr. Fowlcs did not giv tho Council morP information, He thought .. when he took it upon himself to brlng forward a matter of this sort, he would have consnlted the Commissioner of tho GoYen1n1cmt Savings Bank.

Hon. P .• T. LEAHY: He would not give the information.

Stock Foods Bill. [23 OcTOBER.] Populnr Initiatit·e, Etc., Bill. ] 521

Hox. G. PAGE-HANIFY: Yes, he would. The hon. gentleman would have been able to give the• Council some idea as to what cost would be involved, and members would have been in a position to know whether it was worth while. Another thing which had occurred to him was that the Act provided for notice being published seven times. Did the hon. gentleman mean to suggest that it was necessary to post to the last known address seven times? It looked as though the thing had been very hastily decided, and that very little consideration had been given to it. He would suggest that the Hon. Mr. Fowles should obtain a little mora information as to the probable cost and -effect.

Ho:.r. A. G. C. HAWTHORN thought the amendment might reasonably be made, and, as the l\fm1stcr suggested, it could go to the Assembly. Meantime, an estimate of the cost would verv likeh be made. It seemed to him to be. a reasonable thing to ask. The Hon. Mr. Groom had told him on the previous day, when this Bill vvas nnder dis­cussion, that the "Toowoomba Chronicle" ~dvortisod the .name~ of those persons living m the d1stnct m wh1ch that paper circulated v,-ho wore affected. The result was that on several occasions the attention of people resi­dent in the district had been drawn to the fact that their names were included in the list and they had been able to recover monev they had either forgotten all about or in some way had not been in touch vYith. That showed that publicity was good.

Hon .. W. H. DEMAINE : If they forgot all about It, they ought to lose it.

Hox. A. G. C. HA WTHOR:'i' did not \hink so. How many people wer~ there who read the " Gazette," or even knew that one was publi~hed" This sort of thing ought to have pub!Jcatwn. If It were not prohibitive by reason of 1 ts cost, ho thought the proposi­tiOn ought to be adopted. The Hon. Mr. Page-Hanify had drawn attention to the fact that the notice was published seven times in the "Gazette." There was no need t~ :Jo that. ~\n amendment could be made that 1t be posted only once.

"'ew clause put and passed.

Clause 2 put and passed.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: The necessarv <:onscquential amendment should be made in the title. He therefore moved the omission ""f the word "section" in the title with a \-iew to inserting the words ''section sixteen and."

Amendment agreed to_

Title, ae amended, put and passed.

The Council resumed. The CHAIRMAN reported the Bill with an amendment and an amended ti tie. The report was adopted.

The third reading of the Bill was made an Order of the Day for Tuesday next.

STOCK FOODS BILL.

FIRST READING.

On the motion of the SECRETARY FOR MINES. this Bill, received by message from the Ass('mbly, was road a first time.

The second reading of the Bi 11 was made an Order of the Day for Tuesday next.

1919-5 \

POPULAR INITIATIVE AJ'\D REFEREX­DGJ\1 BILL.

SECOND READING-HESUMPTION OF DEBATE.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: This is a familiar friend that has been before this Council on u1any occasions, and ha3 been discuesod very ably from a number of angles .. and in regard to which a largo a.moullt of valuable information has come to light. It has also been discussed fully and frankly in another place, and hon. rnc1nbers, 110 doubt, have made themselves well acquainted with the various sections of the mca.sure. One looks in vain for any alteration in them; they seem to be pretty much the same as before.

Hon. G. PAGE-HANIFY: That shows the consistency of the Government.

HoN. E. W. I-I. FO\VLES: That shows that the Labour party are willing to leam nothing fro1n a progre~,sive tin1e. Consis~ tcncy is the idol of small rniuds, and, if a man is content to live always in the same narrow gaspipc, it shows that there is not much progress in him, mentally or physically. We all grow day by day, aud every Bill that cmncs frorn another place ought to be an improven1cnt on the~ ono brought 111 yesterday.

The SECHE'l'ARY FOR MIXES: This Bill pro­poses_ to alter the existing order of thmgs and provide an entirely new form of govern­lncnt. Therefore it is an adva..nce.

liON. E. W. H. FOWLES : Tho hon. mem­ber says it is an entirely now forn1 of government. I would refer the hon. member to l)ope's lines-

" For forms of government let fools contest,

\Yhatc'or is best administered is best."

The SEC'HETAHY FOR 1lr:-;Es : I think I quoted that on one occasion.

Ho:-;. K W. I-I. FO\YLES: It comes in v-ery aptly in reply to the hon. member now, Fo that whateYer is best administered, a.fter all, is best. However, it is no wonder that those who are gettiug tired of the pariia.­mcntary machine should seek to put up sotne other idol before the people.

Hon. R. SvM:-IER: Do vou want 6 o'clock closing put to the pcopl~ '!

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: Yes. I do not know that they would be content with 6 o'clock closing at the preseut time. I think that three-quarters of the people of Queens­land at the present time are disgusted with the mountain of promises that have been put before them in the last four years. The Government have been in office for four and a-half years, and have done nothing. At ~\ny rutP, Governtncnts that were in power before the present Government ha,·c put liquor laws on the statute-book, and have to a certain extent regulated the liquor traffic.

An HoxOURABLE :!\1E1TBER: \V ere you satis­fied with the work they did?

HoN. E. W. H. FO\YLES: It was as far e.s the conscience of the pc•ople forced them to go up to that time.

Hon. G. PAGE-HAl\'IFY: Forced?

Hon. E. W. H. Fowles.]

1522 Popular Initiative [COUNCIL.] and Referendum Bill.

HoN. E. W. H. FO\VLES: Yes. Very few politicians move unless the people force them tu rnove.

Hon. T. NEVITT: That is why we want the initiative and referendurn.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: If the hon. member wants to depend on the will of the people, why did he not support the amend­ment to put the Members' Salaries Bill before them!

Hon. G. PAGE-HAKIFY: \Vhy do you not pass this Bill?

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: We do not know what the voting will be on this Bill yet, but we do know that the Government have attempted to hide liquor reform behind an Initiative and Referendum Bill.

Hon. G. PAGE-HANIFY: You are t>tlking nonsense.

Hox. E. W. H. FOWLES: The hon. mem­ber has for four and a-half Y''ar· supported a Government who have not raised one finger or done one thing in the direction of tem­rwrance reform. HtJ may talk round about that until the stroke of doom, and he will not persuad,, the people of Queensland that this Government have clone anything. We might throw dust in the eyes of the electors. Let us not throw dust in our own eyes, at anv rate. Across the floor of the Chamber I ~ek the hon. nwm ber if the Government whom he mpporh have done anything to reduce the hours of the sale of liquor?

Hon. T. NEVITT: They have tried to.

Hoc-;. E. W. H. FOWLES : I do not count trials in this c>tse for anything. If they want to raise their salaries they do it-~they do not try.

Hon. \V. J. RIOHDAX: You have given a hancl to raise salaries. \Vill you give a ha.nd to pa.--, this Bill'?

Hox. E. W. H. FOWLES: Where there is a will there is a way; and wh .. re ther~ is a will not to do there is generally a way not to do. I did not intend to touch on the liquor question.

Hon. T. KEVITT: Impossible! (Laughter.)

Hox. E. \Y. I-I. FOWLES: Not so early. !Laughter.) Dealing with the general ques­tion, I would like to point out that the Hon. Mr. Leahy gave hon. memb<'rs an oppor­tunity upon the question sP!tkd by this Council not long ago. of saying whether they were sincere or not in the matter. but thev refused to put that question to a referendum.

An l-IOKOT'RABLE ME:VTBER: Th<:>v wore not afraid to put the aholition of the. Council to the people.

HoN. E. W. H. FO\YLES: They w0re not, and the people of Qwwnsland were not afraid to give a thundering reply to that quc~tiolL

Hon. P. J. LE .. \HY: And they will do it again.

Ho;.;. E. W. H. FOWLES: And they will de' it again. Every day that pas .. ,es only si rengthens the position of this Council in the eyes of all sane people in Quf'ensland. It would b" a happv dav if some hon. mem­},ers of this Council who arc opposing me just on thie point could learn a single trnth­i·hat is, that the majority are not always right. and, if we depended upon the majority to settle all things in the world we would be a very poor case. If the Hon. l\Ir.

[Hon. E. W. H. Fowles.

Pagc-Hanify were suffering from appendicitis -he looks well, and I hope he will continue well for the rest of his life-whom would he choose to eo m<' to his aid? Would he take a majority of the people in Queen street or would he go to the most expert doctor whose serviceo, he could command? If a school­master wants to know whether bovs want a holiday or not is he going to take 'a. referen­dum of them on the question?

Hon. W. J. RIORDAN: That is the best thing to do if he wants to find out.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: With regard to. raising the salaries of the employees in any indusfry in Queensland, w<mld you take a. referendum of the employees on the matter? No; we have established a court to do it. \Vo believe in the same principle that the referendum is not to be employed except in YC>ry exceptional cases. That is the principle which has come to be the crystalised wisdom of the world to-day.

Hon. R Sm1XER: What about self-deter­mination in the League of Nations?

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: That is not a majoritv matter. It is a matter for the majority of the representatives of the league. If the hon. gentleman carried his argument. to its logical conclusion he would give to the 300,000.000 in India sixty times the voting pow-er of Australia. Is he prepared to go on the platform and advocate that doctrine?

Hon. W. H. DE:vrAINE: It would be all right for them.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: That is majority rule. Everv onf' of the people of India is a human br·other. Are we going to let the world be ruled hy the 400,000,000 Chinese and 300.000,000 Indians-700,000,000 out of 1,600.000,000 people in the world? The pcorle of Asia are actually a. majority of the people of the world.

Hon. G. PAGE-HANIFY: That is a.n extreme case. That is not the suggestion here.

HoN. E. vY. H. FOWLES: The suggestion hero is to hand over the reins of government and the making of laws to the majority of the people. The underlying prindple is rule by majority and direct action by the 1najorit:.r.

lion. R. SUMNER: In Queensland.

Ho:-;:. E. W. H. FOWLES: Well, if it is good for Queensland, why shouJd it not be good for New South Wales? Why should 1t not be rrood for Australia? Why should it not be good for the British Empire? Why should it not be a goo-d thmg for the brother­hood of man, if there is such a thing?

Hon. W. J. RIORDA:-i: Why did you a-dvo­cate the rpferendum last night in connection ' ith the M0mbers' Salaries Bill and oppose ilo in connection with this Bill'?

HoK. E. \V. H. FOWLES: The people of Queensland are asking to-day what is the t(sc of the Legislative Assembly, and they are n1aking up their minds.

Hon. vY. J. RIORDAN: You want to put it back on the people.

HoK. E. W. H. FOWLES: Under this Bill the Government want to evade their parliamentary responsibilities.

Hon. T. NEVITT: Just the reverse.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: As soon as Parliament has to face a prickly-pear· qu<'stion-as soon as they arc confronted with something that is difficult to handle-they

Popular Initiative [23 OCTOBER.] an-1 Referen-lwn Bill. 1523-

want to wash their han<ls of it, and to hand it over to the people to .decide, regardless of the fact that it involves an expenditure every time of something like £14,000 to submit a question to a referendum. Ostensibly, the people have scut n•1n:oseutatives to .Parlia­ment to legislate for them.

Hon. \V. H. DEliiAINE: If you arc going to allow the people to decide the liquor question they could decide the prickly-pear question just as easily. ·

HoN. K W. H. FOWLES: Why should legislators. who arc now to be paid £500 per annum to legislate for the people, dodge their duties and responsibilities? Why should thev sa v. ·' K o. we will not tackle this subject, ~we -,vill have a referendum on it?"

Hon. ,V. J. RlORDAN: You preached the doctrirw of the refenmdum on the question of mombm·s' salaries last night.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: That was a verv proper thing to do. (Laughter.) The rer'erendum is useful for large questions, but not for everything.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: If the Govern­ment "·ioh to submit oyerything to a rcferen­,durn tlwY can do so at once vv·lthout anv Act of J0 arlianH'nt at all. The>ro is th~ Parliamentary Bills Referendum Act on the statut<,-book, which this Government conYenient]y forgot or ignore.

Hon. G. PAGE-HANIFY: This Bill is to give the· initiative to the people.

Hon. \V. H. RroRDAN: What is your obj cot ion to this Bill?

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: I have 1,000 objections to it, and probably I will mention 900 of them before I have finished.

Hon. W. H. DE:V!AINE: Y~u have said all this before. Why not cut it out?

The PRESIDENT: Order !

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: I have some­thing altogethe·r new to say on this occasion. I intend to quote from "vVeeklv Notes" for 12th July, 1919. I know that 'this Govern­ment can ride roughshod over Privy Council decisions and trifles like that, but I have here a Privy Council decision which bears directly upon this question.

Hon. T. NEVI'fT: Give· us an instance where the Government have ridden rough­shod over a Privy Council decision.

HoN. E. W. I-I. FOWLES: This Bill is on, instance. The "Weekly Notes" of 12th July contain a report of the decision of the Privy Council in a Canadian case. The full report only came to hand this week, and I have not got a copy of it yet.

Hon. G. PAGE-HANIFY: There was a different point at issue altogether in the Canadian case.

HoN. E. W. I-I. FOWLES: The hon. gentleman will find that the points at issue are identical. The case was brought before the Privy Council on 3rd July. It referred to the Initiative and Referendum Bill, which it was proposed to pass in the• province of Manitoba on precisely the same lines as this Bill.

Hon. G. PAGE-HANIFY: the same lines.

Not on precisely

Ho". E. W. H. FOWLES: The hon. gentleman will find that the cases are abso­lutely parallel. Of course, I do not say that if he puts th<;J microscope on them he will

not discover some minor points of difference, but, speaking generally, they are the same· in e-ssence. Let me read the report of the case-

" JuDICIAL Co>n!ITTEE OF THE PRIVY CouNcn,.

"J.C. July 3. "IN RE THE INITIATIVE AND REFERENDUM;

AC1'.

"Canada (Manitoba)-Manitoba Statute -Invaliditv·--Powers of Lioutonant­Governor--.:'British North America Act, 1867 (30 and 31 V ict. c. 3), ss. 66, 92.

"Appeal by special leave from a judg­ment of the· Court of Appeal of Manitoba. " By an Order in Council made under

RS. Man., 1913, c. 38, the Lieutenant­Governor referred to the Court of King's Bench for Manitoba the question whether the Legislature- of that Province had jurisdiction to enact the Initiative and Referendum Act (6 Geo. 5, c. 59, Man.), and a further question whether there was jurisdiction to enact specified sections of that Act.

" The· Act in question contained elabo­rate provisions by which, shortly stated, it was provided that laws might be made and rt'pPaled by the direct votes of the­electors of the Province.

"The consideration of the que-stions came before lYiathers, C..J. By consent there was no argument, and the learned judge answerod both questions in the affirmative. The Court of Appeal unani­mously answered both q11estions in the negative.

" Special leave to appeal to His Majesty in Council was granted.

"May 15, 16. Maugham, K.C., and Horaco Douglas for the appellant, the Attorne·y-General for Manitoba.

"Sir John Sirnon, K.C., and Hon. M. Macnaghten, K.C., for the respondents."

They considered the case so important that they retained Sir John Simon, K.C., an ex-Solicitor-General for England--

,, Hon. F. Russe.Jl, K.C., and T. Mathew for the Attorney-Ge-neral for Canada, intervenant.

"July 3. The Judicial Committee (constituted as above stated) dismissed the appeal."

The members of the Judicial Committee we-re Viscount I-Ialdane, Lord Buokmaster, Lord Dunedin, Lord Shaw of Dunfermline, and Lord Scott-Dickson. I would just say, at this stage, that there is this difference· between the Canadian Bill and this Bill­the Canadian Bill contains no provision dealing with 6 o'clock closing. Canada had the good sense to go in for prohibition without refe-rring the matter to the people under a Bill of this kind. It is only in benighted Queensland that it has been found necessary to refer that question to the people. This is the gist of the decision-

" Viscount I-Ialdane, in delivering the judgment of their lordships, said that the language of the Act could not be construed otherwise than as intended seriously to affect the position of the Lieutenant-Governor as an integral part of the Legislature under the British North America Act. Further, it was

Hon. E. W. H. Fowles.]

1524 Popular Initiative [COUNCIL.] and Referendum Bill.

doubtful w hcther, under section 92 of that Act, a provincial Legislature could create and endow with its own capacity a new lcg·islative power not created by the Act."

Hon. G. PAGE-HANIFY: But this is not a ~rovincial Legislature.

Hox. E. W. H. FOWLES: Everyone knows that they call them Provinces in Canada and we call them States here.

Hon. \V. H. DEMAINE: But a State is quite different to a Province.

HoN. K \V. H. FOWLES: The analogy betwee-n the two is perfect except that, in forming the Australian Commonwealth, we n tainccl for t' e States all the powers that we did not expresd:: gi vc to the Common­wealth. whereas the Provinces of Canada rota in the powers specif-ically set out in the British :"\ orth American Act, and all the rest of the· pO\YCl'S go to the Dominion of Canada. There is no question of conflict with Fede-ral powers in this rnatter; it is a qu<.~stion of whethcr Parliament, which has been entrusted with the duty of le-gislation, has the power to dele-gate that power of leg·islation to other hands.

Hon. R. SPMNER: vVe have already delegated the abolition of this Council to the pcoplt'.

Hox. E. W. H. FOWLES: Not at all. \\' e c:c11 take a referendum on the question, and then Parliame-nt can pass a law in consonance with the result of that referendum. But it is not the referendum that makes the law. That only gauges tho feeling of the poople- on the que,tion. This Bill practically proYides that a majority of the people can make law at once by direct action.

Hon. \V. H. DEiiiAINE: So they ought. Hon. E. B. PuRXELL: \Vhat you arc up

a~ainst is the initiative. HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: No. There

;s something vastly more in it than that. Hon. R. Su:~rKER : Y on only believe in the

referendum on one question.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: Not at all. If the hon. gentleman will turn up the records with regard to the Provinces in Canada. he will f1nd that the r.efe·rendum is only used on moral qnestions. The people will not trouble to take a referendum on any other kind of question.

Hon. G. PAGE-HANIFY: Probably that might be so here.

Hon. \Y. H. DE}!AINE: In Oregon the·y have the initiative, and they have taken over forty referenda in three years.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: That was when it was a new toy. If I were the hon. ge-ntle­man I would not refer to that, because it has become so utterly discredited as a political weapon that its use is being abandoned in America.

Hon. T. NEVITT: There• have been over 1,500 referenda in America.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: It has become utterly discredited.

Hon. vV. H. DEJ\IAINE :, So discredited that nearly all the States have adopted it.

Hox. E. W. H. FOWLES: It is verv little used except on moral questions. Before I leave the constitutional aspect of the question I will just refer to the fact that in conm'ction with the Legislative Council abolition case the Privy Council said, in effect, " Before

[lion. E. W. H. Fowles.

we can allow vou to introduce a sweeping alteration like" that in one State we must hear the Yiows of all the States in the British Empire, because the propocal cuts at the root of the system of gove-rnment which is extant throughout the whole British Empire."

Hon. G. PAGE-HANIFY: You know that the two positions are not on all-fours at alL

HoN. E. \Y. H. FOWLES : What difference there is is absolutely in my favour. The full report of the Co~Jnc!l abolition case will only strengthen my position. The· decision has just come to hand this week in the "Law Times." If we look at the Bill itself we find that~-

An HoNOC'RABLE MEMBER: It is the same old Bill.

Ho:--r. E. W. H. FOWLES: Yes, it is the same old BilL and wo find that some of the blots on the Bill 'I hi eh were pointed out in previous debates have not been rcrnoved, or altered, or mitigated in any rc.opect. It may \vell be asked \; hy do not the party bringing in this Bill, if they bcline in the principle of the initiatiYe and rcfcrendnm. trust the people wholly with regard to that principle? They say. "VVe "\vill gin? you the referendurn on certain questions, but \Yhen it .corncs to recall o£ rHembcrs, and "-hen it con1cs to rnattf~rs dealing with rno11ey, we will not givo you the refc,rendum."

Hon. R SUMXER: I believe in the recall.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: The party to which the hon. gentleman belongs do not hclicve in it, and they have cut it out of th1s Bill clelil>eratelY. The people of Queensland can .conre to th~ir own conclusions as to \Vhy the Governmt'nt haYc cut out that principle from this Bill.

Hon. \V. H. DEJIIAIXE : It was not put in. Hon. P. J. LEAIIY: 'l'he Council pnt it in

last year. HoN. K vY. H. FOWLES: Yes, it was put

in last Year, and it was not a very acceptable dish to 'another place.

Hon. G. PAGE-H ANIFY: It was [lllC in to kill the Bill, <md it did kill it.

Hox. E. W. H. FO\'\'LES: The om1sswn of such a JWovision sho\YS in a clear lig·ht the inconeistent position taken up by the advo­cates of this BilL On the one hand they shout out loudly. "We will give the people the rcfcron(lun1," hut they put a stnng. to that referendum. and say, "vVe will not gtve them the referendum with reg·ard to money matters." That is the one thing which is of yital inter0st to Queensland at the pre,ent time. Yet this Bill expressly cuts ont finance from the subjects which may be referred to the people, and sa;~:s. "The people are. not to haYC U. single YOICC 111 the 1t11pmnt1011 ?f taxation, in the spending of mo1wy, Oi In the raising of loaus." The prople have, only to be the poor people who find the money. The GO\'ernrnent do not trnst the people to the extent of referring the spending cf money to them, but they trust the people to find the moncv. <tnd tlwn they will spend 1t. That 1s the attitude taken uj-, by the Government in this BilL

Hon. G. PAGE-HANIFY: You know that what you suggest is not practicable.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLRS: Fancy any Labour member suggesting that 'Such a thing is not practica.ble ! I thought the word "impossible" \Yas not in their dictionary.

Several members interjecting,

Popular Initiative [23 OcTOBER.] and Referendum Bill.

The PRESIDEKT said: Order ' These interjections aro too frequent, and they will have to cease. I hope that the hon. gentle­man who is a·ddressing the Council will not bo led off tho track, but de<il with the subject­matter of the Bill.

Ho;o;;. E. W. H. FOWLES: I was just about to refer to subclause (3) of clause 4 of the Bill, ,-hich says-

" Provided that it shall not be la•vful to present any petition for a referendum O.fl--

(a) Any Act or cnactmcnts of any Act the soh' purpose whereof is the appropl'iation of revenue or n1oncy;:; for the ordinary annual services of the Government:''

Surelv that should be the first matter in which the Government should take the people• into their confidr•ncl'! \Vho finds the money? Members of Parliament or the voters? The voters find the money-the taxpayers. the fathers and mother•·, the workers, m1mtal and manna!, find the money: and yet they are not to have any Yoice in the spending of that money. 'What a huge monument of political hypocrisy is contained in that prm·ision. lt further say" that it shall not be 1-a\\"ful to presont a petition for a rdcrondum on-

.. (b) Any proposed law, \Yhcther set out in detail or not, which appropriate'· revenue or money."

No loan proposal, which is a most important thing. can be submitted to the people hy way of referendum under this Bill. \Vhcn Sir Samuel Griffith was borrowing £10.000.000, would that not have been a splendid oppor­tunitv for the Government to ha vc taken a rf'ferEmdum of the people of Qnecnsland as to whether that monev should be borro\\"ed or not? ·

Hon. G. PAGE-HANIFY: Thcv would vote for it every time. •

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: They might vote for it sometimes, but. surelv, there are level-headed people in the. comm;:,nity, apart from the hon. gentleman. \Vith regard to loans, I contend that we might submit ID a referendum the question of whether the Government should go to the American market to borrow rnon<•y at 6~ per cent., but a question of th<l! kind is cut out of the Bill. Perhaps hon. gentlemen will expect me to deal for a minute O'' two with clause 6 of this Bill. which relates to the submission of a proposed petition to the :Minister. and action thereon. In connection with this provision we harl that 3-feot petition, which will probably be the epitaph or tomheto1w of the prPRent Government. \Vithont having any official information on the subject. <>nd on lv fro.m reading "1-I.ansard,n th0 position with rcrrrtrd to that pntition, aR far afl one can gather, seems to be that we have a pro­vision in this Bill which must nece,ssarily be inoperative. 'rhis provision must surely be nuga.tor,- or futile.

Hon. W. H. DEMAIKE: Why?

Rox. E. W. H. FOWLES: Because no petition. so the Gm-ernmcnt sa,·. has been prescnkct. and there is no time to present a petition no\v.

Hen. G. PAGE-HAKIFY: Is that the fault of the Government?

RoK. E. W. H. FOWLES: The Govern­ment ha.Ye brought in the Bill which con­tains t.his provision, and it is their fault that that provision is inserted in the Bill.

I havP. no doubt they cannot go to sleep at night without seeing that petition in front of them in letter.s of living fire on the wall. and feeling what fools thcj" have made of themselves by inst>rting that provision in the Bill.

Hon. G. I'AGE-HAKIFY: \Vhy not cut it out?

Hox. E. W. H. FOWLES: The hon. gentleman may moYe that it be cut out, and he may get supporters for such an amendment. J3nt we must remember that m tlns case there \vas a petition containing ~6,000 na~1_es. When I had the honour to be President of thE:' Six o'Clock Clo~iug Lcngue the nutnber of names to that nctition had rea- hcd 26,000, and they were stiil mounting up.

Hon. \Y. H. D>~MAIKf~: Did you see it, or is it a myth'!

Hox. E. W. H. FOWLES: I ha Ye seen 3 feet of it.

Hon. G. l'AGE-HA)!IJIY: \Vhat did you do with it?

Hox. E. W. H. FOWLES: It was not in mv care at all. According to "Hansard," th-;, late Home S~cretary ·himself admitted that he ha-d recciwcl the petition. Later on he said ho was under the impr~ssion that he had recei.-cd it. Ko hon. member here will think that thE' Home Secretary would make a deliberato misstate>ment with regard to the matter; but evidc'ntly one of two things is true-either he did receive the petition and was quite right in thinking. that he ~ad done so or he was nndcr a rrusa pprchen..:non •vith rc~ard to it, and really did not receive the petition. I do not place f_aith in any, of the manY rumours that arc gomg about w1th regard £o the petition.

Hon. G. PAGE-HANIFY: Do you know where the petition is?

Hon. A. G. C. HAWTHORN: \Ye may get some information about the matter when the Hon: Mr. Page-Hanify is speaking.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: Tho Hon. Mr. Page-Hanify may know a great deal more about the petition than he cares to tell the Council. 'The hon. gentleman kno>' s. that the petition was probably sent along \Vlth a deputation to the Chief Secretary's oflice.

Hon. G. PAGE-HA;o;;rFY: Then yo"U should be able to prmo that.

Ho)!. E. W. H. FOWLES: It remained in the Chief Secretary's office for some time, and \Hts then tr~nsferre.d to the Hon;e Secretary's office. We have it reported m "Hansa~·d" that tho petition ',,as carefully sc-rutinised bv rcpresentatiYes of the Licensed Vict.n:tllcrs' ·Association. The Minister says that in that respect he did not refer to the petition in question, but to a local optwn petition.

Hon. T . .J. O'SHEA: Do you suggeet that the Hon. Mr. Pagc-Hanify has got it?

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: I do not know whether the hon. gentleman has it concealed about. his pe,rson or not.

Hon. G. PAGE-HAKIFY: You should know to whom it was presented, and when.

HoK. E. W. H. FOWLES: I have no doubt that the hon. gentleman does not wish tc have any complicity with the petition: he wants to gd his own Government out of a very difficult position.

Hon. G. PAGE-HA;o;;IFY: I decline to have anv association with the league or the ag{tation.

Hon. E. W. H Fowles.l

1526 Popular Initiative [COUNCIL.] and Referendum Bill.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: I do not say the hon. gent-leman is against 6 o'clock clos­ing; but, if we are to draw deductions from what ho says, it is hard to think that he is in favour of 6 o'clock closing. In a matter of this kind we must move with the general mass of the people, and the people must be educated to a certain extent. At the present time tlwv are educated bevond 6 o'clock clos­ing. and. if a vot<c for prohibition was taken I do not know how it would go. But I do know that this Government will take precious good care that there is no referendum taken on 6 o'clock closing.

Hon. V\7• H. DEMAIKE: Are you inclined

to bet on it? HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: Yes-£5 5s. to

the Children's Hospital or to the Nurses' Fund, for 'l'hich this Government cannot find money. although they can spend £14,000 a ynar jn increasing the salaries of members of the Assembly. 'rhey can do that, but they leave the poor nurses to sweat.

Hon. R. SuMNER: They ar~ in a better position to-day than they were under the late Government.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: However, this matter has no connection with the Bill. I have referred to the provision in clause 6 of th~ Bill with regard to a certain petition. V,That is the value of that provision? The

·Government are on the horns of a dilemma; they do not know what to do. On the one hand, they say that no petition has been presented. If that be true, why fool the people with this provision in clause 6? On the other hand, if the petition has been presented, whe•re is it?

Hon. T. NEviTT: I thought you could throw some light on the subject.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: I know that there is a rumour that it has been burnt in the Home Secretary's office-I do not say deliberately burnt.

Hon. A. G. C. HAWTHORN: The Hon. Mr. Page-Hanify was secretary at that time, was he not?

Hon. G. PAGE-HANIFY: Why do you make statements like that, which you know are untrue?

Hox. E. W. H. FOWLES: I believe that the Hon. :\1r. Pago~Hanify was not secretary at that time.

Hon. A. G. C. HAWTHORN: Then I with­draw rr1y remark.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: There is a rumour that the PGtition was bnrnt at the Homo Secretan·'s office. probably accident­ally. I know that they have a cleaning up there sometimes, and it may have been that this petition was accidentally destroved in Bnch a cl~aning up. V

Hon. G. PAGE· I-T .\c.;IFY: That is a very Sf rious statement for you to make.

HoK. E. W. H. FOWLES: I understand that the petition was probably taken up to the llomc Secretary's office on 8th Sep­t<·mlwr, after I ceased to be President on the 30th June. I was not an ofiicial at the time. not at the deputation. I got a little of the limelight. became a good dcul of capital \Yas made of the statement that

I bolongN] to n certain narty in [5 p.m.] Parliament. and it was believed

that probably i: I were net so TH'On1innnt 1n tcrnp0-rancf' reforrn, th1s Govern~ nwnt rnight roncoJP a litth' in the way of a n•duction of hours. This 'va::' mnde a live

[Hon. E. W. H. Fowles.

subject all over Queensland, and the people were very much disgusted at not being given an opportunity of expressing their will. Dr. ,J a<'bon took my position as president after a.n interval, during which I think the league was run bv an executive and a SFcrctary ·who was. I bciicve, the RPv. G. H. Saunders. I thi11k he i~ now at Ntlmbour, and has b::'en conununiratcd with alreadv. Thoro arc cer­tain nnnours currt~nt with regard to the petition. One ls that it was burnt-acci­dentally or dclibl'rately-in the Home Sccre~ tar.v' .. ofhce-not by the lion1e Secretary. I do not sa v that for one moment. The other rumour i~ that t.hP ]cayes" Ol~f~ bv ono. blew out of the window-accidentally." E,·idcntly the petition was spirited away.

The SECHETARY EOR MIKES: You ought to be able to tell us what became of the petition.

HoN. E. \Y. H. FOWLES : I ask the hon. gentleman what bc>camc of it. He was Acting Home Secretary for some time.

The SECRETARY FOR MIXES : I take this opportunity of saying that the petition I dealt with, and which was in the office, was the petition to take a poll under the Local Authorities Act. That was the petition that was scrutinised by the licensed victuallers.

HoK. E. W. H. FOWLES: The Home Secretary at the time-the Hon. J. Huxham -referred to this petition, and thought that it was before the Government. The Premier at that time also referred to it. If they had not received the petition, why is clause 10 put in the Bill ? The Bill condemns them.

Hon. 1\7• H. DEMAINE: There never was

any such petition. This was the one which vvas n1istaken for it.

I-IoK. E. W. H. FOWLES: Well, it is the Govenunent's 1nistake.

The Sr.CRETARY FOR MIKES: The deputation said they were presenting a petition, and we assumed that they had presented it at the Home office.

HoN. E. W. H. FO\YLES: That is rather a weak defence of the Government. They build an Act of Parliament on a gratuitous assumption.

'The SECRETARY FOR 1\1INES: I was the Acting Home Secretary who took the stand that the opponents of the petition had no right to scrutinise it.

HoN. E. W. II. FOWLES: The hon. gentleman hin1self, in introducing this Bill. referred to the petition as though it had been presented al t"eady. I have no doubt that he was under the impression that it had been presented.

The SECHETARY FOR MIKES: I was.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: No other inter­pretation can be pla.ced on their r<:Inarks. The pet.ition may be in the Temperance H,d!, or on its way to the Government, or locked <t\\'ay in a UoYornu1ent oifice, or dis~ipated jnto thin air. At a\1 eveuts, it ls quite clear that the Go,·ornment have built up a clause purpol'ti ug to giYc the lJOoplP a referendum on 6 o'clock dosing. deliberately knowing-for tlH'Y mu::.t know--that the TH~opl!~ cannot ava..il thernsclves of that clans~. Will the hon. gentlPrna.n shcnv ltH' hcnv they (an avail thcrn:3e1vc:-; of that clause?

The SF.CRETARY FOH 1\IrxEs: If the petition i' in the hanc13 of the temperance people and they 'arc to prcsPnt it. it will be taken as a petition under this Bill.

Popular InitiatiL·e [23 OCTOBER.] and Referendum Bill. 1527

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: The hon. gentlmnan knows that this refers to the petition ''received."

Tho SECRETARY FOR MINES: It devolves on you people now to present that petition.

HoN. E. \V. H. FOWLES: It devolves upon the Go,-ernrnont to explain to the people of Queensland why they ha vo put -clause 10 in the Bill.

Hon. A. SKIRVING: Surely, if you \Yere worrvwg over It you would find out from the Rev. Saunders at what time it was presented 1

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: I am not worrying over it. I know that if 46 000 petitions Wl'rt~ prE'~{'nted to the Govcrn~eEt it would make not the slightest difference. I would put my money on the present Government for dodgiug liquor reform for the rest of my "natural," and I \vould win.

Hon. G. l'AGE-HANIFY: You would lose your n1oncy.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: No; I will give £5 .5s. to the Children's Hospital if there is a smgle hour cut off the liquor trade by this 'Government.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : You will Jose your seat if you bet.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: Let it be put on record. Does the hon. g(lntleman accept the proposal? I have faith in the clever­I1e's of this Government absolutely to dodge bquor reform for the next eighteen months. They will laugh at the hon. gentleman in caucus as they have done for the last four and a-half years.

Hon. A. SKIRVING: It Is easy to make assertions.

He.,"· E. W. H. FOWLES: We deduce the future from the past. ·what have they done for the last four and a-half years "xcept bluff? Can the hon. gentleman point to one hour having been cut off? Can he point to one single bit of liquor reform? Can he point to anything except broken promises? He cannot point to a single thing. The Hon. Mr. Page-Hanify knows that. It will go on for another year and a-half and then the people of Queensland will ~peak and they will " out" them. The hon. gen­tleman made me deal with clause 10.

Hon. G. PAGE-HANIFY: You have not dealt with it very satisfactorily. You have told us nothing.

HoN. K W. H. FOWLES: I have told the hon. gentleman nothing which he liked to hear. Cl a uses 10 and 6 are pretty well linked together. Clause 6 is a submission of pro­posed petition to Minister and action thereon. Claus~ 10 relates to special provisions as to petitions for closing hours of licensed premises. In connection with that it is inter­<>sting to note one or two facts showing the nece,sity for the most scrupulous care in dealing with those portions of the Bill. I refcrr~d to a petition which was taken over in British Columhia. Much has been written about t.he alleged failure of prohibition in British Columbia. where a vote was taken under an Initiative and RDferendum Act containing precisely similar clausqs to those now being dealt with in this Bill. On 14th September, 1916. the ci,-ilians of British l:olumLia, under an Initiative and RL~fer­endnm Act, votPd out the liquor traffic under a clause contaiuing similar electoral pro­visions to that which we ar~ .asked to pass

under this Bill. The soldiers' votes in all the Canadian camps. in England and France, were taken upon this matter on dates in August and up to 14th September of that year. The final result was that prohibition was carried in British Columbia by a majority of nearly 6,000 votes of the civilian popu­lation. Provision was then made by a special Act of Parliamcnttl allo\\1ing any soldiers in England or France who had not voted up to 14th September to record their votes up to 31st December of that year. That was after the civilian vote] had decided, by a majority of 6.000 votes, that liquor reform was to be brought about in British Columbia. vVhat was the re,ult? The announced result of this vote wiped out the 6,000 majority and showed prohibition to be defeated by 800. The final count of the votes in that last post-mortem vote gave the result-for pro­hibition 832, against prohibition 7,456. This Jesult so staggered the people of British c,lumbia that thev did nothing for a few days except wipe "th~ir brows .and wonder what ~1ad happened. Then they got to work. The w•.·men got to work in the matter first, as thev do in most social reforms. They l:w·ciege"d the British Columbia Governmm;t, who had lA., appoint three members of Parlia­ment as a Commission to go to London and investigate.

Hon. A. SKIRVIXG: You got the same in the last Federal election with the soldiers' vote.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: The hon. gen­tleman is interested in this and will be gla-d to hear it. A London accountant (Mr. A. E. Helrnorc) was engaged to make a compari­son of the names of sol-diers appearing in the poll books as having voted, with the Canadian Army records. The result of that accountant's investigation showed that the nam~s of alleged voters voting between 14~h September and 31st December were giVen In the military records as follm\·s: Out of the 7,456 voters' who were supposed to have voted against prohibition. fifty-~ight wer<; ~illed or missing. 750 were duplicates or tnphcates -bv t,ha t I mean thev voted twice or three tim'es-878 were abse"ntees from the place whore thP. poll was taken. and 2,389 never had their names on the records at all

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: They must have had very bad machinery.

HoN. K W. H. FOWLES : That machinery would win any election in Queensland.

Hon. G. PAGE-HANIFY: That could not happen under this Bill.

HoN. E. \V. H. FOWLES: What! With 32 000 more names on the roll than there w~ro electors at the last election in Queens­lane!; with ono of the Ministers in another plac<' sa:ving that it is far better to allow 100 l)C'Oplc who ha vc not a vote to get a voto than that one person with a vote should be dopriYed of it!

Hon. A. SKTRVIliG: He did not say it was better thcv shoul,J gf't the vote. but that it was bette1: they should remain on the roll.

HoN. E. W. H FOWLES: Does a man want to remain on the roll simply because his name appears in an illnminatC'd address? \Vhat is the idea of remaining on the roll except tn be of use in an emergency?

The PRESIDEI\T: Order ! Order !

Hox. E. \Y. H. FOWLES: I was drawn off the subject of my remarks, and I will

Hon. E. W. H. Fowles.]

1528 Popular Initiative [COUNCIL.] and Referendum Bill.

not pursue that any further. Thf)se are the remaining flgures regarding the vote of the soldiers: :\'on-resid<mts of British Columbia, 848: total invalid votes, 4.923; balance, some of w.hich are posRihl)' correct, 3,565.

Hon. G. PAGE-HAK1F> : That is no argument against this BilL

Hox. E. W. H. FOWLES: Look at the loose provisions of this Bill. Under clause 6 tho l\:inister can do anything. He is an ?.utocrat. It says, "Upon being so satisfied, the MinistN shall--"

Tho SECRETARY FOR :\liNES : That is as applied to a petition. There is a similar cl a use in the Local Authorities Act.

Hor;. E. \Y. H. FOWLES: You must have 10.000 names undPr this Bill. vVe do not say that every Minister would be corrupt, of cour"'. but thoro is room in the looseness of clauses 6 and 10 for anv amount of cornqltion-for so much corruption as would make the British Columbia incident look like righteou2ne~s it.;;clf !

The SECRETARY FOR MIKES : Did you not objPct to the licensed victuallers scrutinising the petition'

Hox. E. W. H. FOWLES: Not in the slightest.

The SECRETAHY FOR YJ:IXES : Jf the Minister is sati· ficd, it should be sufficient.

Hox. E. \V. H. FOWLES: A returned soldier told me that he had signed one peti cion seYentcen times. He did not tell me he got a boor for every time he signed it.

The SECHETARY FOR MIKES : It is not fair 'o say that.

Hox. K W. H. FOWLES : Oh, yes ! I could have signed it myself for a beer. A great deal has been made of the fact that Switzerland has a system of referendum and a few other countries-benighted countries­have these methods of government established -for instance, the Unitod States. The United States of America is a land of cxperi­m,ents, and. boiled -down, it comes to this­that there the initiative an-d referendum are used on moral and religious questions, but on no other questions whatever. The case of Switzerland is not analol{ous-a land of just a few cantons and a closely-packed popu­lation where they must have the initiative in order to give them a grip of the Govern­ment. Hero we have all the machinery for giving the people a free han-d. It is only the Government themseh·es here who Jag behind public feeling. If the Government wished to have a referendum on the liquor traffic, thev could have it to-morrow in the same way a' they forced a rpferendum for the abolition of the Council down the throats of the electors two years ago. If they want a rdercndum on any question. they can easily have it without this Bill. Tho machinery is already on the statute-book-the Parlia­rr•.entary Bills Referendum Act of 1908.

Hon. H. LLEWELYK: Do you not think the citizens should have the power to initiate?

HoK. E. W. H. FOWLF:S: Thoro is a good den! to be sai-d in regard to that; but have not the people, at tlw present time, ample means of expressing themselves through the Press of Queensland? There are ninety live newspapers in Qncensland. If a man wishes to express himself, h< can take up his pen and write.

Hon. H. LLEWELYK: How many? Hox. F:. W. H. FOWLES: A good many.

The Hon. Mr. Lcahy, I am sure, will oblige

[Hon. B. W. H. Fowles.

a large number in that respect. And have they not the opportunity of getting on a fru~t box? Market Square is always open. If a man wants to speak, he can walk round Queensland and get a welcome.

.\n. HoxoCRABW MEJHBER: Have you tried it?

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES : I have tried it, and a man gets a welcome if he speaks the truth and is in earnest. He can soon create a public opinion that will make itself felt upon any Government that has a tender conscience, or is susceptible to the real will of the people. There is no need to get up a petition, deposit £100, and all the rest of it.

Hon. H. LLEWELYN: A public meeting is not always a test of public feeling.

Hox. E. W. H. FOWLES: The newspapers provide a groat vent for public feeling. Thesn arc two very fair vents of e'<pression.

Hon. G. PAGE-HAKIFY: You know they are not cffecti ve.

HoN. E. \V. II. FOWLF:S : Surely the " Standard " i~ son10"\vhat effective !

Hon. G. PAGE-HANIFY: How effective in the matter vou arc dealing with?

HoN. E. \Y. H. FOWLES: I say, without the slightest desire of hedging in any way, that, unfortunately, a large number of news­papers in Queensland, however good they may be in other directions, do not like to ]o,e liquor advertisements; but I quite s~e the time is rapidly coming when there wdl not be in Australia a newspaper that w1ll consent to defile its columns with liquor adYertisements.

Hon. A. SKIRVIKG : Do you expect to see that?

Ho:x. E. W. H. FOWLES : Yes. I have lived to see it in the United States, where, I think, 1,156 of the daily newspa pors have rdused to have anything to do with liquor advertisements.

Hon. A. SKIRVIKG : They started the agitation there long before you were born.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: I -do not think so. They are reaping the fruits of it now. I think Kansas " went dry" thirty-four years ago.

Hon. A. SKIRVING : It was in 1854 that they started.

HoK. K W. H. FOWLES: We started it some time ago here,. It is about time we caught up to it. The people want it. I refer now to "The Argonaut," of San Fran­cisco. 30th August. page 132, where reference io made to those politicians who think they ·will, by brinc~ing in ~orr1e ncrw-fanglcd measure and dangling it before tho eyes of the ckctors. do something great in the govc>rnment of the people wh:n, as_ a matter of fact, all that is needed lS plam honest admini,tration of the laws already on the statute-book. and also a plain translation of the v·ishes of the people into Acts of Parliament.

Hon. G. PAGE-HANIFY: Is not this Bill introduc<•d for the purpose of ascertaining the wishes of the people'

HoN. E. W. II. FOWLES: I ask my hon. friend do the people of Queensland not want a further measure of liquor reform at the present time?

I-T on. G. PAGE- HAKTFY : I bel icvo they do; but how can vy·c prov{~ it?

l!ox. E. W. IL FOWLES : Why -do not yonr Govenunent translate that wish into

Populw· Initiative, Etc., Bill. [23 0CTOBErt.J Questions. 152!1

legislation? vVhy ·do not your Government giyc the people a chance 't However, this article ~avs-

" rr'he resourc0 of manv of those in authoritv in a situation fike this is to try to satisfy public demand by imme­diate and drastic ;_,:·tion of sou1e sort. This looks vcrv \vel!; it fills the. nmvs­]mpcrs; it tickles the ears of the ground­ling;-;: it nud\:0'' an i1npro:;;sion of groat activity; but, gentlemen, the2e inexorable ('C'L·nomic laws \Yhich a.re not subject to ainPndillClit and re• pea 1 by congresses and prtr1ianlents and leg-islatui'es~ these inex­orable oconomic lll\YS arc going their wav behind the scenes while the dema­r;ogucc:: ho\Yl and rage and rallt all over thf"·c·C Yariou~ countries ·with their forrnulas and th<'ir n1axirns and their methods of immediate solution."

That is a C'OinplPtr-. S\\"Cf~IJing conde1nnation of those persons I have mentioned.

Hon. G. l'.IGE-HANJFY; Just an agglomera­tion of words.

Hox. E. \Y. H. FOWLES; If the hon. member cannot unrler,tand them. he will be ahll' to re~H-1 thcrn i11 '' Ifansard.'' and he will sec that they jL!St fit the situation. That is just about all the platform of the Labour partv has come to---an agglomeration of words instead of deei!s.

IIon. A. SKIR\'ING; If -.-ou were smcere 111

liquor reform you would- be supporting this Bill.

I-Iox. E. vV. II. FOWLES; I am absolutely sincere in liquor rC'form. l\!Iake this refer to liquor reform alone, and I would pass it at once. and so would everY honest. !oval hon­G'<-:::::·:lLlc n~c~:abG· in this Cvuaci~. Tl~i::1 SL:tle is ages behind the times.

The PRESIDE:\'T: Or·der! About four­tenths of the hon. member's speech deals with the Bill, and six-tenths with prohibition. This is not a Prohibition Bill.

HoN. E. W. H. FO\YLES; I apolog·is9 for being carried away by so many interjections with regard to it.

Hon. G. PAGE-HANIFY ; You arc a .-ery enthusiastic prohibitionist-! don't think.

Hox. E. W. H. FOWLES; I certainly am. The PRESIDEXT; Order !

Hox. E. W. H. FOWLES; The usual drag­net clauses appear in this Bill. and we should also not forget the fact that it would make an unnecessary call cm the Trcasurv in a time 1\ hen ec-onom.- should be the "watch­\vord. I do not thit;k that in Qut'Pllsland ,;-e could takr• a rdNenclum for le•s than £14,000 -it mjght be taken on sorue c·lection day, so that the coct would be minimised a little bit--and in tin1cs calling for c~conomy wo should cerk-inl,, stut)y these matters. Tho GoY{~l'lln1ent of the country. instead of having to be pushc>d into action--bayondted into action--by a petition frorn voters \Vho cannot control their feelings any longer, should be in the van of progre ·S, and give to the people­what t.hey 'vant in the form of a statute. The~- >hould not wait to bP prodded into doing their cluty hv people who ha.-e g;-own resentful at receiving pro1niscs instead of performances.

HoN. G. PAGE-IL\.KTFY; I beg to move the adjournment of the debate.

Question put and passed.

The recumption of thP debate was made an Order of the Day for Tuesday next.

ADJOUK\'ME::'-JT. The SECRETARY FOR MINES; I beg to

move--That the Council do now adjourn. The first business on Tue-da y next will be the third reading of the Snccccsion Act of 1906 Declaratory Bill and the third reading ,,f the Qucensla{](l Government Savings Bm1k Act Amendment Bill. to be followed by the resumption of the debate on the second reading· of the Popular Initiative and HcfN(•ndurn Bill. the sPcmtd reading of tho Stock Foods Bill, the second reading of the Constitution Act Amendment Bill, end the resumption of the debate on the second read­ing- of thP Electiom Act Amendment Bill. I think that, if we get throug·h that programme on Tuesday. we might be able to adjourn tontil tho f;,llo\Ying w~!ck.

Question put and passed.

Tlw Council adjourned at half-past 5 o'clock p.m.