Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

WEDNESDAY, 10 SEPTEMBER 1930

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

858 Crown .Remedies, Etc., Bill, [ASSEMBI .. Y.] Quzs-tions.

WEDNESDAY, 10 SEPTEMBER, 1930.

The SPE.\KEH (Hon. C. Taylor, Windsor! took the chair at 2.30 p.m.

QUESTIO.:\S.

LA:'-:D ALIEXA"2ED OR l:'-1 PROCESS OF ALIE:>fATIOl' 1929-30.

Mr. BULCOCK (!Jarcoo) asked the Secre­tary for Public Lands-

,, vVhat total :trea of land unalienated at 1st July, 1929, is now alienated or in process of alienation?

"2. Into what, categories arc thesE lunch divided?

" \Vhat is the area of c~tch group 9 "

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS (Hon. \Y. A. Deacon, Cunningham) replied-

" 1 to 3. The abovomentioncd area is Jividcd into the following categories, the ar(;a in c~tch ea, .e being as indicated:-

(1) Ag-ricultural farms Area in Acres .

. . 1,054,565 632,553 (2) Prickly-pear selections

(3J Cmwn lands purchased at auction

(.;) _\rea of Crown lands rnadc fr ()ho 1d from 1st ,J u!y, 1929, to date", in­clndin,:· lands purchased at auction and n1iscel-

9,830

lancous grants 4,382

Tobl . 1, 701,330 "

TRADE APPRE"!TICES INDENT"CRED TO DEPART­MEXT OF PLBLIC vVORKS.

]\fr. DASH ( >funrlingburra) asked the Secretary for Public Works-

" 1. \Yhat was the number of traue apprentices indentured to the Publio \Vorks Department and employed in each respective trade (specifying the trades) as at 31st May, 1929?

"2. (u) I-Iow rrwny of such apprentices referred to in (1) have been transferred to the l\1astcr Builders' or Master Plumbers' Associations in accordance with the agreement entered into between the Government and the association&

Questions. [10 SEPTEMBER.] Questions. 859

under which it was agreed that the building trade apprenticcc vould all be absorbed by the a'Sociations in question following unon the introduction of the contract ,,_vstem in respect to public works' activities? (b) "What was the number of the apprentices referred to in (1) who completed their indentures with the department?

" 3. How many of tho apprentices (excludin:{ building trade anprentices) rderrcd to in (1) have been transferred to other organisations or cn1plo;uers?

•' 4. How many of the apprentices referFd to in (1) are still attached to the Works Department awaiting transfer, and when are they likely be absorbed?"

The TREASURER (Hon. W. H. Barnes. lVynnum), for the SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS (Hon. R. :u. King, Logan), replied-

" 1. Appn·ntice­Diacksmith r,ricldavers Carpent';,rs Elocrricians .Toiners Painters Plash•rcrs Plumbers Polislwr

Total

1 5

29 7 4 7 3

15 1

72

"2. la) Ma"tcr Builders' Associalion or rnrrnbers­

CarpPnters Plumber ... Phlstcrel'5 Bricklayers

5 1 4 2

-12 :\faster Plumbers' o\ssc.cia-

tiun CJr IncmlY'1'3 . . . . . . 1 }If aster Joiners' ... 4..ssocia-

tion or rne1nbcrs . . . ... 3 },Inster Paintces' ..::-\~socia­

tion or members

(lii -17

22 '3. Hlacbrllith

Elr 0irician l 1

4. \pprc·nticc-, now in lhe om­p!o,· of y, orks I'epart:mrm 27

~ \ ppn"'ttt:-fcPs now in the cnl­ploy of Labour and lndLu-tr.r Dcpru ~nlC::..lt 1

2

-- 28 [uc1,'-''-Jtur( ·s cancelled

rnutc d co:J _•nt hy

3 -72

,; .He.~nrdi~1~F tl:e inquil'y in (4) abovc, the \Vnd.:s Dr-partmont has for some timo hecn ~n t:)nlnlunicPtion \Yith the }lastor Bnildc'r"' _\,wc-iDtjon in rf'g..trd to the rnuit( r rcff'rrcd to."

PRODCCE A:.:n ExPE:<rDrTFRE, Ho1nc HILL STATE F.\RM.

l\Ir. BULCOCK (JJarcoo) a ked the Secre­tary for A2"riculturc-

" 1. \l.'lwt v: ts the value of (a) produce sold and (IJ) produc0 used on the farm at Horn' Hill State Farm for c.ach of the p;1st :"t1 ven ~,·oars covering the period ender! on 30th June, 1930?

"2. vVhat was the actual expenditure incurred in connc~ction with the main­tcr a nee of the farm for each period referr,,d to in (1) ?"

The SECRli:TARY FOR AGRICULTURE (Hon. H. l<'. vValker, Cooroora) replied-

.. 1. (([) The receipts for the produce ~old for tho la ,,t ~Pvcn years were as follow,,

l 923-24 1924-25 1925-26 1926-2'7 1927-28 1928-29 . 1929,30

£ s. d. 1.823 9 8 1,943 19 3 1,214 18 7 2,096 6 7 1,800 18 1 1,804 9 6 2,562 12 1

(b) ;'\;o precise information is avail­able, but the market value of the pro­duce uscrl on the farm was unimport­ant. "2.--,.-.

1923-24 1924-25 ... 1925-26 1926-27 1927-28 1928-29 ... 1929-30

£ s. d. 2,940 12 8 2,847 14 6 2,733 11 7 3,194 18 10 2.748 15 2 2,964 4 2 3,044 8 5"

MINING OPERATIONS, WALSH AND TINAROO DISTRICT, 1912 A:.:D 1929.

Mr. HILL (Kelvin Grorc) asked the Secre-tary for Mines- .

" 1. ·what was the value of mme.ral won in the Walsh and Tinaroo mimng district during the year 1912?

"2. vYhat was the value of mineral won in the same district during last year?

" 3. What "as the local value of the following minerals during 1912 and 1929 :-Tiu (75 per cent. metal), wolfram (per unit), copper (per".ton), srlver (per oz.), lead (per ton), ancunony (per ton), and molybdenito (per ton)?

'' 4. l'.'h _,t was tho population of the ramc district in the years 1912 and 1929?

.. 5. How rnanv battcrie·; ancl smelters \YC"C wot· 1:cillg ii1 the ~an1o district in 1912 ·;

"6. I-!o\. n1i:tllV batteries and srneiters \Vrrc working in 'the sarno di2r rict during 1929, a1Hl l1ow nwJly battcrif',\ have boen dismrrntlPcl since 1912; al!Cl what wou~d it cost to n-strrrt rt!l battonos not m y,~orkin~ orclcr to· Ja,y ':

·' '/. \Yl:··t were tho rates o£ '' .ge, paid in the lnin1n!!, indu,,Crv ln the above­nJ,~:lticJtlPd district in 1912 and 1929 ?"

The SECRETAHY FOR MI:\ES (Hon. E. A. Atherton, Chiil<IIJOc) r·cpii0cl-

" 1 to 7. Thcl infonna!ion is being obt1incd.:'

Eroxo),IIC PROPO~.'-L':; FOR \YonKI::-.IG TRAINS DE':''' LEx BcxrnBT~RG :\ND GY::HPIE.

1\lr. BAHBER (I!undab, rg) asked the SccrC't,arv fol· }{ailwa'\'-~-

" in connectio~1 ,1,·ith the. co1nbined deputation of raihvay ernployccs and rnombcrs of the chamber of commerce that waited on him during his visit to

860 Questions. [ASSEMBLY.] Questions.

Bundaberg during March last and out­lined certain economic proposals for the working of trains between Bundaberg and Gympic, will he state-

" 1. What was the tenor of the report of the railw<ty experts reg<trding the pro­po,,als of the representatives of the drivers. firemen, and guards?

" 2. As he promised the deputation that they would be advised of the experts' recommendations and findings, will he state whv such information has not been supplied 1

"3. Are the trains, now being worked on a through basis by Bundaberg and G;ympie mC'n, less expensive than those worked by the 1Y1aryborough men on the ~avne sroction '!

" 4. \Vill he give thL• information show­ing the comparative costs of the workings 1nentioncd ?"

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS (Hon. Godfrey :Morgan, Jaurilla) replied-

" 1. The l'eports obtained showed that the proposals submitted by the repre­sentatives of Bundaberg did not consti­tute an improvement on the prevailing practice.

" 2. The promise made was that the matter \Yould be investigated in an unbiassed n1anner.

"3. 'l'herc is no nc~essary relationship between the costs, because the most economicfll working of trainrnen on these section,, is dependent upon the variation in traffic from day to day.

'· 4. Sec answer to No. 3."

DEPunnox oF RAILWAY UxroNs IK FAvouR OF SuPERAXX"GATION ScHE).IE.

Mr. DU'\LOP (lloekharnpton) asked the Secretary for Railways-

" \Vith rdcr0nco to the statement attributed to him in the ' Dailv Mail ' of 4th September, 1930, to the effect that-

.... A deputation of all the craft unions in the railway service, apart from tho Queensland branch of the Auotrali<tn Railways Union, had sug­gested that the scheme of super­annuation shonld Do brought into operation-

will he please say-1. \Vho received the deputation ro­

fen·ed to? 2. On what date was it received? 3. \Vho were tho persons con1prising

the deputation, and what unions were represented thereon 't"

The SECRETAHY FOH H.AILWAYS (Hon. Godfr<'c' l\Iorga::1, Jlurillu) replied-

" 1 to 3. I am not responsible for anv report that 1nay appear in tho press, and do not knm,· where thev reccivcd their inforrnation." ·

CLASSIFir'·\TIOx HELD BV l\Ins. CHAPPLE IK RAILWAY GE:-<EHAL STOHEKEEPER'S OFFICE, BRISBA:O:E.

.Mr. D"CNLOP (Rockluunpton) asked the SPcretary for Raih,ays- ·

"1. Vl'hat io the classification held by a "Mrs. Chapple who is employed in the General Storekeeper's Office in Brisbane?

" 2. On what date was she appointed to that position, and on what salary?

"3. V\'hat salary is she in receipt of at present'?

"4. ·what position did she formerly occupy in the service?

'' 5. What are the details of the duties now being performed by her?

"6. How many male clerks have been retrenched, or given notice of their retTenchment, from the General Store­keeper's Office in Brisbane since Mrs. Chapple's appointment was made?

"7. How many years of service as a c!Prk had they each to their credit at the time of their retrenchment or when notice 'vas served on them?"

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS (Hon. Godfrey Mm·gan, Murilla) ;cplied-

" 1. Clerk. ·' 2. 11th March, 1926. s~lary, £221

per J,nnurn.

" 3. £231, less 6 per cent. " 4. Various positions. " 5. Clerical duties. "6. Four. " 7. 2 years 3 months, 14 years g

months, 15 years 3 months, and 15 years 5 months."

PnosECt'TTOKS AT Sr. LAWREKOE FOR PossEs­SIO:-; OF UKTAKKED OPOSSiii\1 SKINS.

:'vh·. BOYD (flurnctt) asked the Secretary for Agriculture-

•· 1. ls he aware that, as a result of the prosC'cution of two offenders at St. La wren eo re" t~ntly for having untanned opo.:3t.Ull1 skin~ in their possession, a plea of guilty was entered and a fine of £1 and 3s. 6d. costs of court was im­}wscd in each case 't

'' 2. Does he consider these penalties adequate in view of the difficulties experi­' need by the police in securing evidence .against these offenders?

"3. If· not. will he take suitable action to afford greater protection to the legi­timate trapper who obsenes the law?"

Th, SEf'HETARY FOR AGRICULTURE (Hon. H. F. Walhr, Cooroora) replied-

" 1. Yes. "2. In view of the work performed by

the police in these cases, I am of opinion t.lw penalty was inadequate.

'· 3. Provision is t:drcaJ~,. made in exist­ing kgisla.tion for a mO:ximum fine for the fil ,t off once of £10 and for each sub­sequent offence of £5, or not less than 10s. for each untanned skin found in the pos~ession of the offender."

LEOAL Assl ,rAxcE TO UNE~IPLOYED PuRCHASERS o;.· HoMEH ON TEn>rs.

:\lr. HA'\'LO:\ (lthaca) asked tho Pre­nner-

" L Is he aware that (a) owing to unetnploymcnt a large number of citizens are unable to keep up payments on homes purchased on terms; (b) the con­tract of sale entered into by purchasers (often in ignorance of the conditions) gives to the purchaser no protection

Federal A,id Roads, Etc., Bi'1. [ll1 SEPTE~IBER.j Seoo Carriugr of Goods, Et·, Bill. 861

uncl~r such cit:curnstances; {c) unscl'u­pulon~ vendor . .:; haYo thus a golden oppor­tunit:.· to prolitcer at the exponso of the sufierers fron1 uncn1ploynlent '?

"2. \V ill ho take steps, by lcgiolation if lWCc,3arv, to thwart thP·e modern Shylock~, \~·ho seek to rob l itizens . of th• ir homes, the power to do 30 bemg-• in the bond'?

" 3 . .i\s two such c .. 1ses hnso con:l•C under rnv notice this ·week, ·in which parchasc·r· haYc each paid £262 of prin· cipal and £120 interest on homes bought for £525. nnd \vho arc ouh ten or tvvelvf' \V,_'cks behind in their payn1euts~ and have nDw recei\·ed noti.c-:: frorn ,1 solicitor to­Yacatc th0ir homes within ten days, will ho treat this n1atter as urgent?

"4 .. As people affected arc not in a position to pay for legal assistance, 1viH he instn1ct the Public Curator or an oiiiccr of ihe Cro"'ll Law Ofrlcc to advise and defend them gratis?"

The PRE~'IIER (Hon. A. E. Mooro. Aubiuny) replied-

" 1 to 4. o,·.·ing to the legal considera­tions im·oh·od, these questions should be di,rccled to the Honourable the AttorneY· Gennra J. I h-~vo no doubt that if prec~~o particulars were supplied to him of the spef'ific c2 -r:s mcnboncd th:-y 1vould rocoivo his full consideration."

PRIMARY PRODUCERS' ORGANISA· TIO='f AKD MARKETI?\G. FRUIT MARKETE\G OHGANISATIO~.

WHEAT POOL. Al\D DISEASES I~ PL '1.1'\T;:, ACTS A::YIEl'\D::YIENT BILL.

I~ITIATION.

Th SECRETARY FOR "\.GRTCULTURE (Hon. H. F. 'Nalkcr, Cooroom): I beg to move-

" That the House will, at its next sittiug, re olYe itself into a Committee of the \Yhole to consider of the desire· ablencss of inhoducing a Bill to amend the Prinutry ProduccrJ' Organisation and Marketing Acts, the Fruit JY1arkcting Organisation Acts, the 'Wheat Pool Acts, ard tht• in Plants 1.'\_cts, in cer­tain

Question put and passed.

FEDERAL AID lWADS AGREEMENT M'l'H.O\ .\L .\CT (VARIATION OF AGREEME:\'T) APPROVAL BILL.

INITIATION.

The SECRETARY .FOR HAlLWAYS (Hon. Godfr·:Y Morgan, Murilla): I beg to rnovc-

" That the House will, at its next sitting-, re,olvc itsplf into a Committee of the \\'ltolP to consid~·r of .-!w dt•_lr­ablences of introducing a. Bill to approve, adopt, authorise, and ratify a further ag1·eeE1ent made betvveen the Comrnon­woaith of Au .iralia and the :·;t .t of QnePnsland in relation to tl1c construc-1,ion and rcrcnf',lruction of Fcdl't'u 1 n.id roads in ihc State of Quccns!a!l'l."

Question put and passed.

CROWN' Rm.umms ACT AMENDMENT BILL.

TmRD RK,DING.

The ATTORN.EY-GE:'\IERAL (Hon. N . .F. :\laegroarty, South lJri· banc): I beg to lnOYC-

'' That the Bill be now read a third tin1c.''

Question put; and the House divided:­AYES,., 35

l\'fr. Annand Atberton Barnes, G. P. BarnH, \V. H. Blaf'kle,~ Boyd · llntler Clayton co~iello Daniel Deacon Duffy Ed\vards Grin1stone Hill Kelso Kenny Kerr

~rr-. Longman l\fr. ::'vi:.~cgroarty

Mahr:· Maxwell ::=oore M organ Nirr·mo Roberts Hn"·;ell, H. M. Russell, W. A. Sizer Svrayne Tedman 'I'ozer Walker, H. F. \VnJker, J. E. Warren

Tellers : ~Ir. nlackle:< and Mr. Clayton.

NOES, 25. Mr. Barber Jone ;, A. J.

BRdford Kirwan llow :l!ullan Brr,'--c;ington O'K•>fe Bruce Pease Bulcock Pollock Cooper Smith Da"h Stopford nunlop 'Wellington Hanlon \.YiPnflolt Ifancon 'l,Vilson Hynes Winstanley .lone', A.

'l1e~lers; :JJr. llynes and 1\Ir. A. Jonc:,.

An·:e. ~lr. Drnnd

KjJg

PATHS. t\or:s.

".fr. Cenroy Collins

H,(' ,olv ~d in the affirmative.

SEA C \.RRIAGE OF GOODS (STATE) BILL.

INITIATIO~ IN Co~nUTTEE.

(Jlr. Jlo '>erts, East Toou:oomba, in the chair.)

The ~"'REASURER (Hon. W. H. Barnos, 1rynnum): I beg to mo,·c-

" That it is dr ·.irable that a Bill be introduced relating to the sea carriage of goods from any port in the State of Quc•om-l; ncl to au:: other port in the said State."

As the wotion indicates, the Bill has to do wit.h goods that are shipped irom any port in Quecneland to any other port wit:tin the State. The Commonwealth has an Act -,o:rnc­w·hat ~irnilar in nature and New South \V ~les and Western Australia aloo have somewhat :sin1ilar IHC,"' c,urcs.

l\Ir. PoLLOCK: Is tho 13Jll being introduc0d to 0nab!c a Royal Comm; ,sicn tu bo allpointcd?

The TRl~ASURER: :'-:o. I am sorry to haYC to tell the hon. gontlcn,,,n tLat there is no cbn.nte of a 1toval ·Comrni.~-.:ion. The object of the Bill is to a><i '.t the intrastate f'W1 c"~rringe of goods. It is being intro­duced for that purpose, and for no' hing 0lse. It is based upon the n: ague rnlos recommended by the Law Association in

Ilon. 1V. H. Barnes.]

862 Sea Carriage of [ASSEMBLY.] Goods (State) Bill.

1921, which "as amencJr.cl ]aLe· by an inLr· national confcrcncr- a,l_ Bru~·--,d~ in 1922 and further an1cnded the following year. ' Tht> Ha~uc r_ulP~ \Verp c ,tabli ,heel upon a nnifonn b~~I~ W1t_}1 l'PRIH'Ct to responsibilities. lja­bihties. nghrs. i1nmunitii ", ctc of carriao·p under bills of ladin,c;. Th0 C~mmon•Yealth Act, 'vhi0h follows th·,, Imperial ,\et, applic" to tho Austl'a.lJrLn tradl' ~·30 far as tlw Fed(1 ral Constitution "·ill allow. it being· dcfinitd,­si::Lted in section 4 (21 that ihe Act will no.t ~tpply to, the carriage of goods fron1 a port 111 ~ny 8tatP to an:T other 1wrt in thC' sam(' State. As I have alrcacL indi< atcd, 1\e·;~ South "\Yalcs ancl \Yesterit Anetralia han• follo'"' ed y, itl1 BOl11C'\vhat si1nilnr lt:~{isla6on.

Mr. \V. FoRGA;r S}HTH: \Yhat is to b<• aceomplishcd h· the Bill·:

The THEA:':il'HEE: Protection will be afi:'ordt~d to tho~P _ 'vho are shivpiug fron1 one JlOrt m Qucenslaud to anothn pore in Queen·~land. 1l'lti:; is beinn· \·erv r~tronO'lr recommended by the Br1:--b~uo <}hcuubcl· b ~f Commerce.

Mr. \Y. FORGAC\ SMITH (.11acl.ay): So far as 1 could gather frmH thP somc\vhat, n_·;;tricted rharactor of the rcrn .1rks of the' 'J'reasurcr, the Bill will be alou;; lines similar to legislauoH pa:-;scd in the Stat.(::; of ::\ew South \Yale,. anJ \Ve,tern ~\uotralia. He also announced that in re:_rard to intPrstatP trade the ConllllOJnvcalt.h --Govcnunent pro­posed to introducp ]co·islation of a si1nilar character. o

ThP THEAS-CHER: The Connnon\YPalth Go­vcrnnlLnt have legislation of a sirnilar character jn operation.

Mr. W. FOHGAX S:\IITU: So far as I can unders~and, the Bill is ono to givr the Cro\Vn authontv to control tho :._;arria,.,..c of o·ood.;: in tl:e int~'~htate tracl~ and to pro~~._·ct co~ui~l~Ol'S of gooas from pon to port an<l otherw1sc to rcgulat~ the sc•a carriagP ot goods in that \Vay. rrlw T·rcasurer ha:-:; lJot ~6vcu u::; anv intimation .as to \Yhcthcr the""-" Govennucu't propose to control frcig}Jt rates 01~ to take vowcr to coutrul condiiions of shinping. llo"",, e\rer, \\-o l::ihall gPt more inforrnation \Yhe1~ .-we ha ye the opportunity of rc.-:~di11g tht~ B1ll OUl'·Ol~~e·". Thcre is 011(' thiug Vv'(\

eau ahvays say 111 regard to a Bill introduced Ly the Tn J.~urc1·. V\~hatPYl'l' he ruid1t ornit ou the intl'Oductory stages of a Bill will bo revealed in due course when rhP Bill is brought before the Hou,e.

. .lVh;., POLLOCK (Grcuory): I ,JJuuld like the lreasun~r to g'lYO us sornc infonnation a~ to the nature of tbe Bill and what it seck,.; 10 ~!0. S~) far h_' hrt~3 HOt. giYl'll US that infOl'­llHtl.iOll. _j__Jy thts resolution \Ve arc asked to agt·oe that it is advisable that a Dill be intro;Iuc;:_~l fo~· ~this purpooc.~. For what pur­PO'C . 1 hn I rcasure-r has not made the purpose of the Bill dcr:tr.

llo-:-.L:::;: 6ECHETAHY: You ncYcT made a clear on ihc introductory stage.

:'vir. POLLOCK: I ha,;e never introduced a Bill, ~o how coulJ I make it clear. . Mr. \Y. :Fm:G:\C'\ S}IITH: I always gan' the fullest 1nfornwtton. I alY. ays took the I-Iouse into my confcdeucc. ·

::'vir. POLLOCK: The people of We,tem Qwwn~]and a·rc Yitallv intcrestPd in the question of transport-both sea transport and land transport. Does the Treasurer propose to do anythmg ll1 the way of fixcctiou of freight rates, or does he 'seek to control

[Hon. W. H. Ban1es.

fix_ati~>n of freight rates in tho event of the­~Inpping- cornpani(1 S increasing them unduly?

If it is proposed by the Treasurer to com­lllanc1c,er ships i_n the event of the shipping con1parncs rcfus1ng to carry goods then w·e -hall know what we arc Yoting fm:. At the Jn·os8nt rnomont none of us has any more i<lc·c of '."hat \Ye are asked to vote for than lwfore the Treasurer moved for leave to int rocluce the Bill. He has giYen the Com­mittec no information whatever as to the nature of the proposals which arc to be embodied in the Bill. VVe ce<nnot be expected \o record an intelligent vote on the desir­e bleness of the introduction of a Bill such a> this unless we know what it is all about.

\Vc in vVc,tern Queensland are having a considerable amount of trouble in regard to transport gmwrally. H the Treasurer does not propose to do anything in the matter of freight,;, "'" m<'c' be able to broaden the "'ope of the Bill so as to provide for people -ending goods from the \V est, and for people who are getting goods from Townsville, Rockhampton, and other ports being able to do so at more equitable rates than are charged at the• pr<'scnt time. It is a very important subject, and, if the Treasurer has no intention of introducing a 1neasure to deal ' ith freighb. then, perhaps, we• could broaclt'n the discussion by moYing an amend­ment providing that thP TreasurN should :Llso include land freights as well as .'.ea freights. There is abundant argument in fa-..-our of that.

All of our pPoplc of \Y estcru Queensland arc on the border line of starvation because of the drought Man:v of them are in the Jifi1cult position of having to send wool away to Yarious n1arkets and receive less than cost prict' for ir. One diffiL_1lt, in their 1vay is. the rajlway and stearnPr fn1 ights. Unless something is clone hy tho ·Government to !-(iYo the 'e people relief, they will not only 'ull'et· a di,advantagc in that direction, but they will a loo be suffering a disadvantage in the m a ttor of gC"tting foodstuffs out there. 'J'hne are hundn,cls of people in \Vinton, llughenden, Longreach, and other towns further \vest. 1.d1o arc in n, difficult and unen­Yiablc position to-da_.· becausco they are faced wi1-l1 strtrYation, :.tnd, unless. something is dollc to ensure that the.' can o;et goods from tJw seaporb ovPr the railways at a reason­able price. they ,.,-ill haYe a difficulty in < arryin;; on. In fact, there \Yill be a further n:odLtS from the \Yestern districts to the coastal diotrictr .. which ce1nnot support the country people who haYe already been forced oft' thoir lancl into the < -mstal areas. It is t.inlP Parliament con.sldcrcd the quC>stion of freig·hts-not only coastal se:t freights, but a],o land frcights-aud obi,ainNl some idea of tlw police· of the GoYernmont in regard thPrcto. To-dav there arc hundreds of men i;, r.hc \Vest. who haYO bNm thrown out of IYol'l;;:, who, during- thP time 1vhp:r._ there was p1Pniy of employnwnt, when wool was a g-ood pric ~. wcrP ab1P to sPcnrc a decent living. Thn matter of railway freights was 11ct a matter of great conrcrn to then1 then; hnl. to-clay. with no employment, and when it i,; almo:;t impracticable for them to secure

job in W r•tern Queensland, railway freights hon·c h,,,ome the greatest and most difficult o;:stado thev ha n• to facP. While Wf' are <'Ot"idcring -the question of the carriage of goo(l., from port to vort. I argue that we ,ltonld nlso take into consideration the ques­tion of the carriage of goods from town to,

Sea Ga, r{age of [10 SEPTEMBER.] Goods (Statr) Bill. 863

•own within the State. If the public are to be prot"cted in the matter of freights from port to port, why sho•1ld the public not a! o be protected in the muttnr of freights from town to town'! Why should the ports and people living on the coast have all the advantaal'S of a propo~al such as this·: Surolv the Treasurer will see that there is a real necessity for wmcthing to be done by the Government ! Even if the Government cannot reduce freights on prirnary produce coming from \Vestorn Queensland because of the financial position, that is no ·v\ arrant why they should not pay re;;ard to those who an' dependent on the price and carriage of goods for an ordinary meal.

[3 p.m.] hope that h0forc this Bill goe~ through Treasurer wiJl [l:'i\7 0 us ::;omp idea. as to

rt--' scopE'. as to hov~~ far ho propo~1'S to go. a to what lw mea.ns by "'ying that he proposes to inuoduco "a Bill relating to the ~~e~t carriugo ot r-oods fro1n any port in thP Stat" to any other port within the said ~tah''--in short. that he will give us an :,1ra of th<> dctailo of th0 m •c ,nre that he propose·' to inhodt!C\'. 'I'o ask this Com­mitte<' to rcc·orrl an intelligent .-ot" on this {tJPstion without letting ue know the details c:: tho provisions of the Bill is an outragf· 1Jrl parlianlenL'Jry gov'-'r11n1r~nt. aud I protest ~n,:st strongly against it.

:'.Ir. HY'\'ES (Town;.,illr): I would like to a,·-.f'rtuin fron1 the- Trcu;;;urr1· tvlwtlwr anv proyjsion is n1adp in this Bill to pcnn{t harbour boards to :recO\"Cr darnagrs frorn ;-:hips which have dan1a gcd their harbour v.rorks.

The TuE.bl'HER: There is anothe>r Bill deal­in: -,·ith t 11 't.

:\Ir. STOPFOHD (Jlou,lf Jiorgun): I e'C­PL·rt the Trea,,urcr 1vill make d1e cxcu::,e that fu-. really clo •::; not kno1v tho Bill, becausP ·hat h" diJ ttdl us he road from a piece of

pn.pPr which \Vas, !lo donbt, prcpan)d by one -,f his oflicc>-s.

The TRE.\~;cRER: Tl!o~- :~, not so.

:\fr. STOPFOHD : \Y c m-o in the po, 1hon dHlt, if the Bill p;'s~vs this s~--lgc, we cannot alter il. I do net kn Jw rcallv what lhc Bill "''HJia::lls. DoeG ilw Bill in an~v wav intt'rfere with th(' cob::1itions of 1vages o~r holus of 1nen wol'king on Rhips? I aw afraid that there is somethinc; of that nnturo in it, judging hom the attiluc',e of the Treasurer.

The T!r~.\SCR·R: 1.-C.Ll aro a bad gue,·3er.

~.Ir. STOPFORD: I a-k the 'J'recsurcr to r.k'lay this Bill, seeing that possibly at a lJ,ter stag0 he n1rry know sorne'Lhing about it :lnd. givo the Connnittec sorno inforrnation.

l\ir. \Y. FORGAN S:'.1T'I'U (Jiackay): in lnformat ion lHcS b:.~cn askLd for frena

>.id~~ <.,£ the Chan1b 'r that thP Corntnittec i:~ entitled to got. I kno1·.' tl.at rnen1bers of t:hP Coy'"nnucllt have a c,·nical [end con­tl·mptnou disrcgrtrd for i''arliament--(Go­V('l'Jl111ent Lug-hter)--·-anl ha.-o indicated that

their method of introducing Bills. \'Vhilst may fUit their irnme·diai-e supporters in

this Chamb~~·r. it suits 11either TI1Yst lf nor rolleagLF'S on this side. \Vc U:re asked

;1t this stag0 of the proccedin£;s to affirrn tho dc;;;irability of ccrta.in things.

Before th-. is a resolut-ion, general in -cl-:aracb•r, dL~aiing v>.:ith the carriage of goods

- between one port and another in the State. Thf' 'rrcasurcr has n1ade no attempt what~ PYI'i' to tell us what form of control is

i .. '"Hlcd to bA exorcised. It may be only a control liJuii"t~:d to tlw harbour authorities in tL:" Yarious p -.rh of the State. On the other hand, it nul v ~):o ful'tht>r and control the couclitlons o( -:!Jipping, and 1nay prescribl' l,·.mdition as to ho-w goo·ds '·hall be tendered for tra:J·it, undc:.- y·hat conditions they shall be u.cceptcd hy ~-,hjppin-:· r,"cnp_.ui''"· and the rc:Lz' of freight i.h<:t· rnay be (hargPd for the C·<.~rriage of Ynriou.:J type~~ of goodf:. All the~c thinr!'s rnav be consiclt>red \\ ithin the li1cauin·2,· of this. n . .;olution; but tho Trea­surPr h:L"' nw .. de no attcrnpt v·hatO\'er to tell n- v.-hat i; i1tt·endcd by the Bill. The hon. gont len_an HH n·ly Jl1{)YC, a :.. solution, and g-iYt'-3 nu infor1nation at all. I protest very strongly ag,inst the attitude oi the Trea­sur( r, who 1s neither acting in accordance 'I\ ith the Jignity of his posirioH nur giving Pcn·1ia.nlf'\1t the l~1funnntion 1vhich. in com­DH.lll fairne.·,· llr.' should givo as to the ·dt·~jrability or othenvise of hls proposal.

Mr. COOPER (Brernu) : There is a dis­tinct reason for the House going into Com­mittee to consider the desirableness of intro­ducing this measure; and that purpose is th>Lt the Committee may discuss fully the gf'neral principk;s in the moasul'e, and then report to the House whether it is desirable that the measure shall be introduced, or whctkr it is desirable that additional things shall be done. It is not the function of the Committee to discuss the details of the mea­sure, a~ that. js reserved for the l-Iouse; but it is the function of this Committee to <''Camine thoroughly the principles of the rne<-'.sure; ~tnd the Treasure1· h. s fa.ilcll, inso­far as he has not indicated clearly how far the Bill propoo.cs to go. I hope the Treasurer will see that time is being wasted, and, in ful'lhNance of the economy campaign which he i,s pursuing, I would suggest to hin1 that this Parliament costs something- liko £70 an hour, and he would probably ,avu £60 or ;o by explaining what the measure proposes to do and what it does not propose to do ..

The THEASURER (Hon. W. H. Barnes. TT'ynrwm): Hon. members opposite seem to be very mur h concet·ncrl about exercising e oHomy, and I can join with them there.

First of all, lot me reply to the hon. mem­ber for Townsville. This Bill has nothing whatever to do r. ith the snbjC>ct he men­tioned. Thrtt qtwstion is provided for in another Bill already lictcd on the business· paper.

Mr. POLLOCK: What other Bill is listed?

The TREASURER: The Navigation Acts Amcndm(mt Bill. The hon. member for Mount i\Iorn;an asked wheth<or tlw Bill pro­vided for rates of wages and that kind of thing. rrhat rnattLT is not included in the Bill in anv way. It has primarily to do with ,,-hat 1 said prm-iously. It is a short Bill of eight clauses, and has to do \\'ith the sea carriage of goods end bills of lading.

Mr. POLLOCK: In what way?

The TREASURER: The- hon. member is very impetuous. It provide, that, when a bill of lading is issued, the proper proceed­ings 1nust be undertaken. Supposing the hon. member put goods on board a vessel and afterwards it was found that the ve'·sel was unseaworthy, as shipper of the goods, he would not be liable because of the unsea­worthiness of the ship. This Bill is bringing the law in that regard into line with that of the Commonwealth. As I have already

Hon. W. H. Barnes.]

864 Land Tax Act [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

stated, it was considered necesmry to intro­duce similar measures in Now South vVales and in Western Australia,, and, in the interests of commerce and as the commercial community are urging it, we think it is one of those things that will be of a distinct advantage to the country.

Mr. l'OLLOCK: Is that the only principle in the Bill?

The TRK\SURJ£R: That is all. It has nothing to do with anything else.

Question put and passed. Tho I-lousP re' urncd. Tho Cn ITIDL\" reported that the Committee

had come tJ a resolution. ltc;:;olution agreed to.

Fms·r READING.

The TREASURER (Hon. W. H. Barnes, Hynnum) prec;·,ntcd the Bill, and moved-

" That the Bill be now read a first time"

Question put and passed. Second Lacling of the Bill made an Order

o' the Da:, for to-morrow.

LAKD TA:'~ ACT A~!END~lE;\!T BILL.

IXTTHTrO" IN I'O:IDIITTEE.

(Mr. Robut lo'r:sl Too;"oomba, in th: chair.) The TRE '.SURER (l!on. \Y. II. Barnes,

H"' ynnum) : 1 beg to move~ "T~wt it i dt'sira blc that a Bill be

introduced to arn0nd ' The La,nd Tax ~-'~et of 1915 ' bv extending the operation of the ···.1per 'land tax until the close of the fi' tucial ycrn 0nding the 30th day of June, 1931; to fnrt her arncnd th8 aid Aci in certain parti 0 u]ars."

3/Ir. STOPFORD: DoPs the Brisbane Cham­ber of Cmnrnerco support you in this :1

The TREASURER : I \nmld like to repeat what was said by the l)rcrnicr ·when speaking the other day--namely. that one hr1s to admit that our 11artv were verv d0oirou -and in­deed went further than that-that this measure of taxation should not be re:lcwed--

:\1r. PoLLOCK : You are a bad prophet.

The TREASUHER: The hon. member is itl a quizzical n1ood. I want to say there are phase• of the rnrltter with "·hich I am quite R<H"8 hon. nwmbcrs oppc .ite will absolutely ag-ree. Th· Goyornmc·nt have had to tako certain action for the purpose of b.dcwcin~; the Budget.

I feel quite sure that if the Government had taken that action, but at the same time announced that they '"ere going to avoid reintroducing this form of taxation, they "\Vould h.tY? bee<l severely and, in n1y judg~ mcnt, justly criticised; they would have irnmcdiatcly been ~hargcd b1T hon. rnetnbe·rs on the other cide with caring only for the men who had mone-,- with which to pay taxrc­tion. The fact rPn~ains that, in view of the condition of thzc fmaneial world to-day, it is absolute!' nccessarv that this Bill should be inirodm -'·d and th~ tax reimposed. My own view is that the more taxation we have the loss monev there will be for employment ; that the 'more inroads we make on the resource,, of people-the more money wo take from them-the less money there is to invest in industry. But the position to-day is such that we cannot refrain from doing it.

[Hon. W. H. Barnes.

AnothPr W'rv important proposal in the Hill to whieh I must rnako reference arises from a case which hon. members may remember caone before the Full Court of Queensland by way of appeal in connection -,-rith a land tu··( ea· t-3Ic0coch v. the Corn­m:c· ioner of Taxes. The court in delivering it3 cleci~ion \Yas not unanimous. Land had b< n taken up, part of which was covered with prickly pear. The Commissioner of Taxes took the view that the value of the lnnd was the Yaluc at which it was taken up: but the court, by a rnajority, tho Chief J ustico dissenting-, held that the impr,JVe­!nentQ inclucl.od th0 clearing of pear, and const:tutnd part of the land value at its inc, 'Jtion. lf that decision is not altered very. heavy loss ·;:ill be incurred.

:Vk. IV. FoRGAN S}IITH: You are not going back?

The TREAS'CRER: Xo. We may have our own doubts as to whether the decision V1'US correct. but one 1nay not speak of a j udpnent of the court, and we are taking steps to have the matt-er made clear. It is not being n1adB in any way retro:;pective. 'vYr• propose to make the law perfectly clear, so that in future the Commissioner of Taxes will know exactlY hero he is. It will not affect por~ous \"\ ho have paid money unde,r the conditions as they existed previously, end it \vill not affect anv case now under t(~yiew. I do 110t know o( any such case, but if rhcrc: arc any the amendment will not appl,\~ to them.

:\J:r. PoLLOCK: But you are reimposing the mpcr land tax.

The THEAS'CRER: Yes; and perhaps thn hon. rncnber may have so1nething to con­Hibnt" under 1t. f do not know whether he wilL but I do know that >omo hon. members on that side have fortunately been in that po.,ltio11. (L<~ug·hicr.) ~

~J~·. J?t'LLOCK: l?"ou will haYe to give me the land fir;t.

:1Ir. \Y. FORGAN 8'\TITH {,l!rtrkap): Taking all thP circurnstanccs into rcvjcw. thr 'l'J·oasurc· would bn w01l advised to place tbi~ InC'a'-tUC' }J"'rmancntly upon the d.atute­ll~Jok. and tln:t~> do av:ay ·with thr nC'Cc'ssity

ncl the Dpprtr0':lt nbsu'rdity of re-enacting nH~~UUl'C C":Ch year.

'r1F· THt\_~JlTRF.R: \Y c have followr-d the cxarnplc of your Government.

C\Ir. W. FORGAN S:\UTH: I ha Ye always tc\cn that Yicw. Had r been Treasurer in th:- ]a:'t OoYC'rnnlrnt. that is exactly \Yhat l \'OC~ld hl\·o ·rlono v ith t·ho measure. How­C'""C'1'. tl1, t iE~, a rnath'r for t h0 11inhtcr in

of tl1t' rl0partrnent. It does rtppcar to JllC b-, fnrcicnl for a Treasurer, ·wh'1--..:vcr h:~ nu1v b-·. frmn i'in1c to tln10 to come Hckn11~fy along each yr>ar aJking Parliame-nt tr_· rc-cnart the ramc mea:3urc.

The Trca-un~r mcntionPd that the Govern­r iC'nt. nr <Lt 1ca-...-· thr GovPrnrrlr_'nt I")artv. ;n·or- ··.eel to abolish thi· form of taxation. \Y\ kn0w that that is lmfHl~~iblr>; nnd those o/ lH who haYP studied this question kilO\V

t:;at Hl"l'P i3 ]ittlc or no rrosprct in the innn0dinh-:.. futnre cf a rl'mission r~£ t.axati~nL Ti -,~ is n ··c::-rctta blo fact. All forms of t<txat.ion ha· P --omo obnoxious featurf's. Thf'rn Cf'Yl be n{l doubt that, if we wer" in a. pr)s1tion to do away with taxation nlto­c;dhr•r, the action would be hailed with {idirious D''lig-ht bv all conecrno·d. So long as \'VC have a~n org'anised State with certain

cb~ign,tio 1s State. ta· b<-:- lrYicd in Ycric'd

r~

Land Ta:c Act

paid that a anal> . .si:" tl-10 in( onu: will ~indirrte r ty incorrw a{t. ,.

The TREI';·URE'"':: I am vt -ry consciou~~ of it.

\Y FOP.CL\:-J S21ITTII: The.,:=_ r0marks bv T1 at pu;;·c 1809 of ·Haw1rd·'

Trr~-:.\SrRE:a: The Government out th •ir pulic. in other

. i:t this rC'"'tH~rt, b:v Tdlson .ab--oh't'' fnih.In' in ~oun.fl ftn"~nce

prcYion:> Go\'C'r~~nwuL thf'~V aro · for an C'Xt'"Lsion o( this tax

Ju11o nc::·d; nt -J they believe rc'sult ~hc1 r efforts and· their

·,ill be ·blc to do lr1ie GoYcrnrr1o:1t W"'~rc

n (0~ ;><"ition intcrjcc-tior '.)

" Th~ CII.\IK\IAX : Order ! " Th0 T:aE.\Sl'R ~H: I \Ynnt

th:•t one of thP strono-est conf1dl'n :0 Df the peOple 111, is the alllOUnt of rnollC"'7 that is

OYE'l' rho counter and the amount rowin>r the Sayings Bank.

nf'c b11s restored becau;o;;e the prc-;eut Go\·cnnn(~nt know th-2ir job and nre do1ng it. The aln1 of thid Govern· ment v;ill b~~ to lighton taxation. Thev lHno alrPo dy done. a gT<'ct deal in that direction nncl the~T arQ going to do a great ITI01'G jn the days to corne."

It is quite true that they have done a groat d('al since then. r:rhey haYC not in a!lJ \Va,y reduced the incidence of taxation-rather have they incroa od it-and thAy have lwonght within the ambit of t'n:rttion n!l s0ction,-1 of ro1n1nunit:,, even tho,~0 'rho c rn 3s. 6d. t ho course of the veaL Fur-thcnnOl'C, thr' Treasurer has alrCad~- given an iudication t!1at he intends to jncrea-:-c t·)xation in other directions. I--Ie propo3-CS to l'Pdure the exen1ption on jncomo ta--r, and, so far as I }Htvc been rtble to a11a1ys.o the f't:-:ttcrncnts rnnc1o bv the Prc1nicr on this matt.er, he intend~- to inl}l0,3C additional burdens on people cut-side the taxation arena at the pn•,;e.;t t;nw. His pl'O'>osel, genern llv speaking. is to hnpoEe ar1dJtionrt1 buL dcn~s on people whose incomes fall below £1,000 prr annum. H·o,scvcr, 1.ve shall doal ~vith that question when we come to it.

It is inter<; ting to note that the Premier recognises r1ow that his election promises

1930-3 H

865

' wnot be fnlfillcd. rcgrcttablo ~t ·i' of afirri1 that, \VlJCn i ho pro, 1 i::;c's , , .'re those cmJccr;lC'd \vPrB uot c--nlsefous of the of the situation. l\Tr. n 11 ('X~Mi1::~:tc _, of ;::, Nationa-list \:"i .. toria, \>Titino;- in ono of of 'l.u tr~lic, just

dE~aling: l.Yith this said that, anyone who

ta:~Gltion is either icnorant of or is ~;·ilfullv

Treasurer and his f'ollr:<lguf ;, prorniscd to ren1·;t taxation. Thcv no· admit th<'V cnnnct do that. It i,; a rc']'rcttablc fact th~t the conditions of the countr:y under tllt:ir regin1e have gone from bad to ·c-.: or-e; und, lnstead of rcmi:;;-;;;ion of

\YG han; thi~ tu.x bPin~~ rc·;n1poscd ftnt l;nr taxn tion fore ,hq do\YC'd. Those

arc conditions, which caHnot be rr--:r-ardcd ,._ ith cquanimitv, and indicate that the Go­vornrncnt polic:v is not in any way having the rondt which \Yas anti, ipated by their supporters

?\o doubt the Bill will be cartied. The Trea, :ucr requires the money which will be bron~ht in b~v D1C<Hts of the n1easure; but ho \\ill be \veil adviseJ to adopt the logical cocn'se anJ ,,miJodv this form of taxation in th _, st 'tu to la \n oi tlw State. If at a later

the ftnanclal position of the country a rcmi'~.,ion in gr~ncral taxation, an

atnending Art ctJn be brought :in rcvie··w.ing the whole po· ition.

Mr. BEDFORD (1Farrrgo): One mu;t S-yntpathi:-'c \\·ith the Treasurer's position, in bi~ bl'ing forceJ to do violence to his dc-tr de~ires a.!ld noble aspirutio· s for lo\v tn:-:ntion on the \\ ·~althy clas~JC''·',, and his tremendOUCJ, ideals for the puritY of the life of t· . ., com­r·unitv by +he (~JiiniLation of gambling. "\T('Stt:rdav he l>LJ~ forced to sas to :-t d0pUt::1-tion that, unfortunately, the " Golden Ca3kct '' \VOuld havt~ to stav on for thi., year_ \Ye know vcr-· well that tho ''Golden C'a ket" will n~t be removed-that it will stay on for this year and the follo'?cing vear, if jt is O\·er rcrnovrd. Rcn1en1b8ring· v~·hat the TrE'1snrcr has ,aid in tho past a.bout the evib of this supc·r t Lx--of it.;; < ,tns­ing grentcr discomfort and being an obstacle to the introduction of capital for industry, --one 1nnst put hi!.l in the po ition of a con3ciprtiow~ bnrgla!' yvho ru:1y be 1·epent·1nt. 011 ~uurla but i~ forced bv the { CODO!Illr;

Ul'g"C to t_~O 1 to bc11F': a bu rglal' frorn ::,londay tiJJ Saturday uighL

[3.30 p.m.J I-Io\. ever, the rrrea ~iUrC'r ha~ R\Vallowcd tho

L..x. tic is s·d allowing it pi cc IUf .d. it y{_ ::tl' b, *·pi}', in~~"cad of in one

ha-; swaJlo"'· cd thu " U-oldcJt " if not. for<'Yct~. 1-hen for

h>1s s ~-allowed tbe :1n:ing ·nncthing

'Jlnv be H.nd

\,-u

1l<l11 h, method of

lie ·

'rlt ci1c:tr ' and unemr loy-1o~ical t\~ lottPrv

· to th.e ht~n. '.:!,'('Iltl('tnan gnnn

loft the nand u£ Hone: n!ld ,,-ill f!O further, rrnd ck j--lo

the alkg-cd Yice.~ -of m, n La. Ye g-old~n lii'inr.; to tlH"rn-a. lin1ng·

l-:0 dor,.;; not he~it~tte to u;:: ~. ~-

::Ir, COOPE!t (E. I "'"' g·o=ng to f.Hggc"t to the Trc a curer if hn doe>-~ not ca;-e to accept the recommendation of tht-

J11r. C,· oper.]

SG(i Land 'l'a.:' Act, Etc., Ei/1. [ASSEJ\'l:BLY.] D~famation Law, Etc., Bill.

Lead, r of the Oppoc.!tion to put this measure on tho :'ta.tutc-buok p0rrnanently, at least he should amend it and substitute the vear 1932 for the year 1131 at pros(•lll, shm.r~ in thP rrJotion. I ~ugg-cc.:t th _t bt!causc that \'{ill prob3 bl_y SC0 the r_l'rcasurcr OVCl' hi:-:. difficnl­ti(:::; a" Trc ':lsurer. (Opposit1on laughter.) Of coun;e. if 1932 l;:ill not ,do that, then pro­l bl,- 1934 would. iHonc>YPcl lau.;,:hter.) As an effort in tho JnatJ-,~r of r·'::·ouon1y and to

:-1ve thf~ ti ~e of !JarUanH•nt next )-:Par, thP Tt·r tsnrer rnight be~ '-ell advisc•d to adopt rny '"nggc::;t.ion.

It is t.irrw thnt o.-orneonc b1·ok0 a lance vvith the Tr-:usurer OYt'l' thr -c evil:- of taxation of \Yhicl1 speak:::. 'l~<Jxation i" by no lTif L!b

~u~. ; i~ is a ..-cry ncccssar> tiling. 'fa,::a-tion d,_.>f·-· net rnean that ruJnoy i::; \vasted. \s a m;;tLr of f et, taxation. very often

tllf'"llS that 1nonoy is spent to much better advant <:J~. and that on 1nany occasions good .3Crvic(" arr rend1'red by 1H011f'Y obtained por rneditnn of tuxation tl~at woul(l otherwise ,,et be rendered. Our education sPrviez,. an' maintajned by taxation, our police force~ are sin1iiarl:.~ ma·inLtinfxL and n .any other instrumcntalities of the Stato are kept up by rnoney recei\ 2-d fron1 taxatiou-rnoney that would not othNwisc have been spent in those directions.

'"fh0 TREASCRER: Such as State stution 1••

Mr. \Y. FOI<GAo; S:mTH: And S>:iift's meat­works.

'l'he CH.AIR:\IX:'>: : Order !

Mr. COOP:U:H : I might remind thA Trea­·UrPr al:'o th_ t. low frui-g·ht on rail1sa-, s aro kc·pt going b~.- taxation ,vhcn people ar~~ allo,-,·cd to carry their oth(•r goods by n1oans of m~tor traffic. That is alw k('pt up b0· taxatwn, as the Treasnrer probably knov>o fror:a his position. It frequently happens that money raiccd by taxation has a !&rgcr spread; ,.nd, by re:Fon of the fact that it is spent by pcoplr in 111ll.C'h poorer circt'illl­stances th. n 1 hm 2 froru "',rhonl the n1oncv 1

talc;n, :it goe8 in the rv"stuin:ing of nocosSar~· indnstrics, ,,-hcrca~, if it v·erc not taken by rneans of taxation, it would go in other aYenuos--;_ s, for example, ra'-es, race.Jourses. .. GoldPn Caskl·t~," ~-upcrior hotels. de lux~ Yc·:r:ch, _te. 1'o sav tLat taxation is a vcr­\' rong thing and ~that th0 sooner y-e ca~t "'ivipe. it ot~t the better-the Treasurer's point of VlOY-1~> v.TOD~3"· I achnit thai. probably ·when the ;::-,tat,:• i~ wis0 onouuh tu find soah' other n1t J·hocl of finan-ci11g tn{Clertakiucrs than ibc pre·<·nt cnrnbc•rson1c n1r~hods taxation 1 ill {_E,.~tpprar; but that "?~-ill onh' he vvhcn the l"cople general!:·. re 1.1: ;e that the State is theirs, thnt the -.. calth of the State is theirs. anc~ that !t i~ their duty to take that portion o: tbe wealth ·h·hich they require first anll foremo< bdore any other person handles it.

The 'l'REASUHER (Hon. W. lL Barm"'• 1l"ynnu H): It is all YCr'; '::ell for some hon . .l11CL bers oppo3ito to talk .about burglary and th · t kind o£ 1 hing·. It is Yery '~·usy for ~<1n1eont~ \~ h_ J c .n cxprcs3 himself pretty free!:·, c ,pccml!y sou cone who knoY. about Carrington and other such things. \Ve can easil.r undPrst ·ncl r01narks fro·m such a ner­-on. One has a verv YiYid rPcollcctioll of so~me of tbc tr.:_n~c ~ bapprmjn_gs associated w1th the n;Jrne of '' Carrington. ))

The CHAIR:\L'!.N : Order ~

Tho TREASURER: You .are perfectl:· right in callin~: n1c to ordcT, ~:Ir. Robert:;. but it is rem·trlmblc what tmnspires wnr;n the name " Carrington " is mentioned.

[Jlb·. Cooper.

The hon. member for Brcmcr talks about alt<'rimr the Bill to make it mad " 1932 " instead' of " 1931." Ile mnst know what a Yer}· foolish Ruggestion that is, coming from au lion. nH'Inbur \t"ho has been in the Iiouse so ]c~lg. Doe~ he not know that a message is rcrcivecl from His Excellency, and that th,, t rnf -:,;;; 1 :e <:oYcrs a certain pe·riod?

J\1 ~·. POLLOCK : You could get a rnessage to eo n' r two years.

The THE.\SUREH: I could do a lot of thi11 _ '· io oblige thP hon. InCnlbC'r, but I arn 1101 t!I.-posC'd to clo much this afternoon. It is no ll''' den;. ing the fact-I say it with very gTC''lt rPgTPt-that the position of Australia lu :-: dta21g·•d YC}q,¥ matcriallH in the last

:~!unths. ls therr· anY hon. member who one rr1o1nh'1t will s~av that twelve Jnonth::) ago mJy one of u~ ai1ticlpatcd the t n:nd of thjn·g-s as \l•;c find H to--day, espe­ci all,. from the fmancial side?

The Go~;crnrnent arc criticised; but, n lthough we are crit·.icised, .at least we are l>tcing the position. vY e have had no hesita­tion ::bout facing it. Uur job is to do our rlnty h thic great State; but, as the Leader ,,r the Ft•deral Opposition has said, there is a biggPr job P-von than that, illd that is to realitJe that SOlHC'tin1DS it is ncce1sary to put 0~1 one ~ide all part.Y considerations and say .,,." ure going to do the very best in the jr::tcre~ts of the whole eountr.-. VVo must admit that the conditions" to-day are ( ".::ceptlonal. ·

M l'. PoLLOC ; : \Yhcu are you going- to get tlwL "'onc·y that you )og.ned to the other ;·;tatcs?

TJ1e TltE!cSUHEH: The hoE. member will gc~ :111 an::-1., er in due course. \Vh·~11 the due d,~tc arriVL'S ho \'ill prob~~ bly get an answer. 'rlH' fin a ne~" are being run satisfactorily, and ·will be ruu in the s.1me 't':ay in the futur"""'. ·

Qucst1on vut a:nd passed. 'I he lieu,. e rcsunwd. ThF CILUll'L\X reported that tlk Corn1nittee

l1r,d (·onlG to a resolution. llc)solution agreed to .

FIRST HE \DIXC'·

Tlt<> THE"\Sl,RER (Hon. vY. ll. Barnes ll'ynn u.m) prc.' cnted the Bill, and moved-

"' Thut th,, Hill be now read a first Lu11F'.n

Que -lion put and passed. Sf·,~oDd r2adir!g- of the BjJl rnade an Order

oi the Day for to-morrow.

llEFA:-.1XL'IOX LAW OF C,'UEEC\SLAc\D '~:\U:ND:\IEl\T JHLL.

CJ1I::.:ITTEE.

(_"itr. Robe ts, £/'3' Toowoon'l)(J, ;nth-· cha,:r.)

Clau ·J 1-" 5'/i.ort t/tfc and con:-;truction" --agrcc,l to.

Clause 2-'· Lr'D.IJ oj d nnag" ..:, etc., by 2Jluintijf obtain,·r·; ju-'gmcnl "-

rrhe ,~\TTOR~E\:-GENEH.\L (l-Ion. N. F. )Iacgro~u· ~,', South Bri,.,bant.): l b,_.g to rnove the following an1erHhneJJt.: --

" On page 2. after liiic :CO. in .crt the follo·win:; fJroviso :--

'Provided that the plaill'.ift in whose faYOU" judgmcm is givcu shall be re­quired under his writ of execution to

Defamation Law of Quemsland [10 SEPTEMBER.] Arn,·rulment Bill.

levy the dan1a~e~. penc, 1* ,Y, and cos~'3 "ut o: the property of the defendant, in the first in-;tancc; and if the property of .iuch dcfcnciant i:;; found in~uHiciPnt to s ,ti:'·{v such darnages, pcufllty, al!d costs, the plaintiff concerned, in the n<..:t instD.l!C!', F·~lall lovv the roinuindo1· cf sueD. (]_arna,;;c"i, ptY:l:dty, and costs out of the l~;bcle of the: t:ypes. prc~scs, or printinl2,' 1 1 tcrird~ in which the defendant h;: cl any br~rwUc:al use or iHt(~n .t .at or sub~ ~C}ll~nt to tho rirne of tlJ' printing of the s::tid dcfa1natory rna~ ,~e;·; aud~ if then such j udgn1cnt is nr~t fully sa: i'"ficd. the plalnriff con­cenwd, in the final instance, shall levy, after the leY.:· in the pro· .::din'_{ t ;vo :in~~afl('CS as :1Jorc'·aitl, tht remainder of Ruc:h t~<unag- s, pc1, ,.~,l<\·, and costs out of the wholt~ of the types. prc&',,cs. or printin~: nlDtcrials -in vvhich any per..;on vvh:J, by hiln-~eH, h1s ser\ ants, or ::tgcmts. printed the said d0famatory rnatter had anv b:•neficial us~ or int"n' t at or .,;bsequont to thr, time of the printing o£ the said dehmatory Inatter, to 1VhonlsOe"",-er th~ ~:1.1118 rnay beJong at the tjrno of the levy.' ''

Sr1ortiv. thr~ <tD1C'lldrn0nt rncans that the pcr:-,ou" 1vho js entitled to rcc>n·0r damages or co>ts must hcyc recourse first to the defl''l'd~ ant. an cl, fa,iling- iho cl• fntd tn1, thou to thn lJ!'i!ltin::r pn:_~-- that rLl~.~ be D _ hir _·,-purchase agref'•ucnt with hil!'L ._\Jtnr ;~iyinc the n1att-~r c littlP furtLer con5iden:d ion. I think that js :t reasonable fllnondrnPnt I lnuy say that I think it is de'<irablt• a l·.o to a.1ncnd ':The Prinh'rs an cl Ne Vi v LpC'·r~; Act of :914," \dH rcby prillh•r;;; ant.1 publislH~rs cf n '' ·­papCl':'i -;honh1 be cal10(l upon to enLr into a bonc1, :s they fonn<'rly h rl to do befor0 1914. \Vith h, ' snrPtio·. In 1923 an Act "·~ls p·1s~:0d in \7ictori,~ under which a ::-i1nil<Jr bc<id ·v afi required ~o be entered into. I thi1d-:: :it is d0sirable that·, i·1 the jntrrc~ts of t Le- dc£an1ution law, that should be done.

Mr. Brrworm: Thcoe bonds arc est rea table to the Grown : they are not estreatablc to the per :m libelled.

Th NfTORXEY~GKNERAL: They can }J._, ordered to gi \ e consideration to riving the <hma!'es to the defamed person. I think the .tllnf'ndnH•nt a rcaso1w ble one,

::\1r. 1\. FORGAK f'-::\UTH (Hachy): Unfortunately, I went down to mv room to a t mv CO'lV of the BilL and there­fcrc~ did n·ot h<;a·r the whole of the' AttorneY­General's rc-nuuk in f.a·vJur of th"' an1cnd­rrwnt; but tho hon. gentleman \Yas good

101.1gh to send ;:_~ copy of tho atnendrnent io-(1 H\', and. as ac; I could follO'I\r the~ iLtnli-ion of the nn1crrlrncnt, jt is sornc i1roprov 'nwnt on the· Biil zen0rnlhT a" it ctands-that is to sav, so far"' I can follo.v 1' ,, amcndm,,nt, it· pro\·idcs that where a \'erdict has been giYcn ag inst the defendant JW·' cpapPr tbJ verdict ccn be satisfied first of all--

The ATTOEXEY-Gr:xETLiL: "i\.fust bc"-not '' (' lTl.'

Mr. W. FORGAX S:'i11TH: B" any 1nor:r s ln the po-, -cssio;·t of the defendant '" prnp. rty held by him, provided that, if

thE- rnone:v or othel~ prop''l'ty at hi::< di::~posal i < not su!ficicnt to eati f:: the verdict, then that· can be satisfied by the print'inrr plant fo the ext. nt of his equitY in it. That is the Bill: hut this amer'dm0nt provides. further. that, if his equity in the machinery sold or

purchased u1·(~ T a hirc-purrh:;s0 ngr(~Cincnt i~ l!Ot ~4uf-ticic.r:t to rnu~t d1c ,~crdict, then it i~ leviable ag~1 ir·~t 1 ~f' Vll1Jlc of th~' plant in thC' ra·inring e·~tabll~hn1CIIt.

Tl"'~ _',.T':-ORX' ·-Gr::xERAL: l~o:

~\Ir. W. FORGAN S:HrrH: I \\as not qlJ]o to follow tho Attornev-General clearh. f;upposc, for cxarnple, a ~ Ycrdict is giYCn agaill-,G the o··_\'IH'f oi a ncvvspapcr \Yho pub~ lishes a libel. Then the plaintifl' procr:eds to ~atl~fy his jurlgrncnt. Suppose it is fo1 £1,000. The defendant has not got £1,000; but tho defendant rnay levy against any property he h:c;, includin,; his equity in the nw.chinery?

The ATTORXEY-GEXER\L: In any machinery.

:Y1r. W. FORGAN S:\liTII: Yes, or any other property; but, if the nm\Spaper has been printed by machinery which is being purch~"sed under a hire-purchase agrecrnent or a.Ly of tbos~"' instruments which are used at the present time and which constitute one of the eYils of modern 'OCietc·, so that it is worth con,.idering y,,hether we should not l<'gislate to dNl with them-·,ve can debate that later~-th(m the verdict can be satisfied again~~ any rnachinory in the printing estab­lishment \<herein the libel was priut;'d and pul1\i;rhed.

'l'he ~:i....TrVRNEY-GE:.'\ER\L: That is correct.

Mr. W. HORGAX SMITH: But the law is alhr8d to this extent-that, if the verdict is not satisfied then to the full, nu remc,dy lies against the wpplier'' of tile machinery. That is the position we have arrived at uow ><·ith the Bill and the amendment.

The :\'ITOR:XEY-GEXEilAL: That is so.

111r. \Y. FORGAN SMITH: 'The amend~ rnent is to :-:orno extent an improycment on !he Bill; but there is a ueccssity-wl1ich the Attornc:y~GC'ncral recogni~cs-for a further altc:r~:~tion of the law to deal with that indi~ vidual whom I dcscTibed on the second re ,,cling. While '' c >111 believe in a free prec·o, that cloP' not mean that people should have a Jiccn~e to abuse otlwr people or tc' pubiish lies about them or otherwi e injure them in their reputation. If thLo libel laws arc watered down to anv considerable extent ancluo liabilitJ is imposed on the machiw ry, there is often a danger that rnon of straw will become u'~ publishers of newspapers for a period for specific propaganda pur­posb. They will be able to print anything they like, and di'""O'ninate it in certain areas of the State. \Yl10n proceedings are taken againsc them, the7 ''ill be found to be m on of straw, a~ainst whom no verdict can be satisfied. I:J ome cases they may be merely tho nominee' of other ncrsons in the back~ ground ' ho arc finan~iallv men of sub~ stance. Ae it is not closirabl~ that that stab of afl'airs should be encm>ra<;ed, in this or om0 other la" we c hould provide some pro~

fcction again that type of indiYiduaL I haY(' SC'C'll rons 111 Her ci rcnla ted fron1

time to time without the imprint of any r0cognised printi11g establishment, for the deliberate plll'posc of injuring an individual or an orgPnisation "~ithout any justification in the sense that it is in the public interest or serves any good purpose. There should be some power to deal with a publication of that kind. I feel that, instead of taking this line in this Bill, the better course to pursue would be to amend the other Act mentioned by the Attorney-General with a view to

Mr. Smith.]

868 Dcfanuticn Law o.fQueensl·md [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

providing a fund against which tho verdict could be sati Ee.,-:1.

ing that I \vas tho agent of a certain firrn, LliH1 an indivjdual ap­

lllC' 1vith a vie\, to ~>ccurirlg so1no upon \vhich ho paid a small reinaining in::;tah110nts to be pa.id

a p ::1od of rnonths or years, there bt_' .::;o:r1o lia~ility upon 1no t·) see to 1hat i1Jclividurtl intends to en.=,agc in

cnL rpri:·.c. Why shou!d the encourage the hi rG-purchaso

agTcerut•nt s~-stc~In La 2·iven the in1n1unity or ·on th.<>t the:: at present enjoy' Ono

the d.i£r1culti• ' that ,.ome people fmd them-in to-da;, i that tbcv have purchased

good9 undcx the hire-purchase agreement systeL'l. T~u: of tho s.,' ~tern is to induce peop!o to live ond their moans. In tho <'V''flt of 1-ho i; cll\·iclual not bning able to continUL' to pay the remaining iiJstalments the vendor can secure rcpOSf'C ,si on of the goods, arl ic1cs, or rnachincry sold.

..\fr. Cc ,TELLO: \Vithout any gre.J.t expense.

..\Ir. \V. F,JRGA::'-J S:\1ITH: Yes. There havo bee 1 ("tC,'S where a r·onsiderable portion of the mane y hrH been paid. and upon default tlw vendor has re-entered into por·scs­sion and a 'crtt•d his rights.

The lcnY rc~cnil.v pa;;:scd by the Pu-rlian1ent of th2 South ~-1fri~. tn Un.lon is an jmportant d·:p .,rtmc: in that respect. It pro.-icles that 'v here anything has been pur-chased under the hir.:-nurchase the Yondor shall rank ~ lh· with creditors in the en'nt ·pu·rclws.•r not being· able to 1ncct his ics. At the pr(>Cr:t time tho ycndor under the hire-purcha~c agrccn1ent ha~ rn·;orit:~. If the JYfiList0r lookC'd up th•_:: re ,orc!.s of the cl'partmcnt of the State Ad-

Corporation, he would find th t invc,_ ''Cro made with rc•;ard to people

kPd fot a, rPrn]ssion of int~~rr -,r pa.v­rnPnt.s or fol' an t -;.;::tension cf t:jnre in which !o JHt.T. thn Y~ arnounts. l-lo \vill ~eo tl:at thP 1llV~~:-:.tJg-atlOD8 made by the departmental officers bOmetime:s rcvc.J,xl thut tho money that sho:_dd h2.ve been T)rtid to the State Y:a;:; utili:;:~c: to pLty in" uln~(·nb; u.pon smrwthing­pnrf'hi13C'r1 nn0.cr the hire-r vrcha2e agree­rnent s :. stern. The extent to ,vhich this :;;vstCln h 2.s pcn1ea tee! the life of the co·nmm1';ty is con~~d ·;_·u ble, and the law in rcL1tion to the so matters : worthy of comidera,;on. I advise the AttoTncy-Gcncral to lank up thr: rec nt /~.et p ssed hy the South _._\.frican Padian1cnt de:lin'J.; with th:+ rnattcr ·with a Yiow to C'hcckii1g V\ hat they regarded as an evil.

The \TTOr<':EY-Gn; EAL: I ha>e had rr,Jro­sPHtations DLtde to rne iE con::l~_.ctton with 'the hirc-purclu:.t5'-B agreen1cnt sy ::tcn1.

It is \YOrth rrlO\ ed bv

Dill L,Ss fir:'t instance,

- x:t -nt protfx:_) litigants 'Who ;,,fnl vc;:dlct.

1T·r. BEDFORD I Uif'agrcc with the id a tbat the n1akc's th~? Bill any clearer. The law would have rcrrwira<1 rl< ,::_r hurl Gtrn:nnw:nt not sought to ob~curc the by introduring this .:.mt,Hc~ing Biil. The A ttorney-C eucral mi~ht b<'Ec.-e. ancl I bclie.-c he doe, believe, that it is an injust.icc that ),~ec.:·)r;. Edwitrds, Dunlon, and Co., for inshncc. should suffer because of the fnct that they allowed a plant to get into improper and irresponsible hands.

[Mr. Smith.

Ho ;ecks to palliate that injustice to a citi­zen who is protected by tltc- prcc•nt Act by now bringing iu <"tlJ amcnJ_;_n_;;-d: \Vhich. after a11. ntctns Ycry litt}P t.han had in i'l1e Bill. It the provision' of

EvervlJOdy knows that in the case of n. rep uta Gle r'te\Y~paper~and evPn in cas"s ~f par "•rs which ;ful but not reputoble -there is r:o in gciLin~~ d.:nicLgeg after a libel. Hut cverv n1Jn kno\Ys that on rc plant ,,,J,ich h~s ~ost £15 any lihel factory c. n pcint a million pound,, y, ')l'th of libel within a very few days.

It is wise to con~·,idcr this arncnrlment and the Bill itself from the vicwpomt only of that which prmnptccl it. ·rhi is a case in \Yhich the chamb of con1Incrce~\vhich can­not he libclied-oue cannot say anything too bad aCvut i~ to illjuro it-~cn(: a ~1r. Epsie, the villa;:e "'John I\ or toP " of Uharlcville, approached the Attorney"G 'nor'd for an amcnclmon! o£ the prcc,cnt hw. This amowl· Hll nt and the Bill itself is l<1rgely permiulug ,'c r Espie to go on YYith the job that ha wiiS doing 1vbcn hJ was sudden!:~ stopped by the sccoll(J .-erdict I obtained. Since ihi'l Dill has been introduced, :\ic>,rs. Ed,vatd8, })ul_llop, and Cornpu.n~- have con3cntt._d i? ~·~11 t0 f._!r. Espic~ aLother plant on prolnls:'ory JtoL ·;. ~,\-hi le the old _.:\et rornajncd as it was, they had decided to 'ell nothing- to him

for CCJSh. r_r.~w IJC iti011 j, 1·~H1t nO\V able l ibd fr. ,_,tor,'', hLYing

o;: prornissory noics., o£ d1ffi(;l,lh'r' Ly

who into hjs take £5 y orth

·\\-hat for ? To he 1 p Parlicuncnt.

The hislor.\ of this oaper is funny. It is a comic: thi."~· \~,~Ith Epsiu \.a-; nsso­ciated th<' SLlprcme Court lailiJf c,[ Charle­viJJe-one Dun \Vright-an an1atcur journnlist ''. ho supplic largo quantities of rnisinforn1a­tion to the "Dail-· 11ail." 1-io i-; the (;Lhcr g ,larantOl'. ESpir Y, as rc:.:pousiLie for onl: a £.,;,: pounds, the "boob/' of the country --the ::lt'1cctors nnd othoro-puttln,_~ up the rnoru.•.: for the purpose: of a 1"i.::;tins }-lr. Espie in his Jesire to enter Parliament-1. hi eh he will nov ~r rcv,eh. At the beginnin~; they conld not their \Vagl, in full, aud they still o·.·:c ThQy haYe applied to hwe them as debts on tho liquioation no\ in the lt>enth of the P,tblic Cu,::,tOl·

tlwv st<E'ted this paper, they decidetl th' jjrst bnsinC··~ \\ ._L3 to libel illC; SO

they a 1nnn who u 0d to sit on the Lubotlt· of tho l-Iousc~a goHti\'Inn .. ll nan1cd L_euna,-to vn:itc a libcJ, >,vhich Vv as ·rewarded wi"h a Ycrdirt for £5JO damages ancl costs. \\-o kn~;w well that the..:.o

diJ not h- vc mone.v, and that ·q·orc una Llc to p.:1 y wa ·:~ 2-s. ~.lcssrs

.::, D·u1it•p. and Cornpan;r', un.dt:>t' the "'~··, 1\. Jl'D 1 prop dy danwgcd fv.~.· hav-

ing ziv('It lo irrcspOE'>iblo P' J~j~·~ tlh~ chance oi nutking a liLol on a fairly deccEt citizen.

[4 p.m.] Then thl'\ got on to the second libeL

Th1~ libel vas'_ :t up :·nd corrected In proof 011 ?~th Jnnc. On 1st July Me'Srs. Edwards. Dunlop. and Company, apparently kno·,,,ing that tho libel was there or that some such

on, <1 c·cided to cali this hire agree­and replace it ·with prorni:::sory

tho "\\ c-tcrn Snn" c;uarantced \Vright, nnd r<t the -sa1no .tirne

,·ards, Dunlop, and Compan got f:;_·,·,rn thr "\Ye -.trrn Sun~'

}~~pie and vVright for the and the costs which were still

. this paper that could not pay rh way. On 3rcl ,July tho hbel was published; bu~ I bc!ieYc that it is ;sood law to think that, as the type was used in scttirw it up and the galley press was used 111 ·• pulling" the proof on 30th June. tlu.:J· arc stilt liable. IiaYing got the yerdict -and_ t 1

1i:" i- \Yh ·t. this an1c1drncnt is ~::oing to do wit it ho hac got a verdict~,-, o I he:~ got of tlw court and proJeodod un.lc·•· '"t to se] I the plant; and tlw tcnvl1 was JHo-vidt·rl. by one of th·• 1< • ,--:\Ir. JJaniel Wright, one of the nf the .. h :Lice Dcp.utmcnt~in his

us sheriff, hQ,ving to seizP- his O\Vn

:- lJ it. fur us-(laughtPr)-wh~ch, "njoym• nt ti:Je greater. But \Yithin t .n rnjnutes

Court injL:u1ction Sf'~u1·c·d. The company and Thlr. Jnstico \\ebb. in the libel case, ruled

ll<cing in liquidation, we plant~that, although the

g_c YC us the O"'.Yncrship by ~ ' crclict .. '· c could not \o::ll

and Hnt \Ve rnust rank as ordinarv It wn' clnother Gilbcrtian touch

rlr rn.rr::r(' aud co:::ts I rceeiYcd in lihol o.ci'io:t wore attempiPd to be

as. c~·cdit ~r.: in thu sccor1d liquida­That Ln duoalod itself. Of course,

~ho,ru arc :n~Jf n.any P'-1 ople in Charlevill0, a':'a r:etural1y tbne are not mary people o£ tlns ''""; ,, ' that, ·,,,hen there wore half a dozou dirty joh to be done in that plac(\ there~ \Y(l'C onlv t\VO pcr~oncl to do tht n1---E

1syic_ f nd Vt. ri.s;ht. So Espio then

bf•cam nqmcLtor of the compccny. Finding lh·1t he --wa:-; continning to dissirmte our as::;cts bv <"Jntinuing to produce this " rag- " which harl bc..n iPsolvcnt from it-., hirth. we bad the Public Cur,<tor appointed as liqui­dator, smzcd th., )llant, and, to add to the gawt~· of nc.tions. it <Yas installed in the office of a frionrl of ours~the rival news­papPI'. IJ~hu~ a y._Tdict is given--a verdict by a. jnry whicl1 that under the C'xist-mr: le.w · ou ;n:ty thnt plant and you :may nl o go tnto Edward.:'. ])unlop, nnd Comp.1ny's . and seize the plant th•ro. Tne. vercbct of the jury says that :,·o.u < ·1n so, .. , the gmlty plant. Th0n, by th1s_ s(_ra\v C'Jn1pG.ny E?ing into liquidat~on, ~ hqurdntnr ('an o·;ernJe the verdict of the JUr.v and make the libelled pr1rty~t!18 man vvho h~l'· been [.pvcn a venlict-rank onlv as an ord::nar.v creditor jn a pl'<.~ctic.CJJly jn,ol;,.ent <:Ol ..._,~rn. rrh• ..._:lttorney-Gencral ls rnaki11t,. tlFt.t easier-- "'

'fhc ATTO:i~XEY-GE:,H:R.\L: ~~·o

I\:[r. BEDFORD: I will show the hon. geutlrrnan ho1v.

The ATTcn:;.;EY·CE~EHAL: ~-.-ou baYc been in {_·ompani·.:; iha.t haYo gone into liquidaLion.

Mt'. Bi·;DFORD: Quite eo; but I did not also have a \'Prclict for damages against the whole of the pror 'rt.J of a company and then have to rank H:-'1 an ordinary creditor.

The SECRET.\llY FOR l'cBLIC LANDS: Do you want io have a prior right?

Anv ndmcnt Bill. 869

Mr. BEDFORD: Certainlv, because the JUry ga\ (' :mu 1:_1nor rights. 'The jur·y gaye 111" n \ 0rdlct under a. la\.- v,rhich gave mo lhP plant. Then by this stmw company going into liquidation 1ny verdict \vas tr,kell c' ay, and this arn0ndrnent d the Attorney­Gcmera~ :i~ o-oliE' to rnake it lnn·al and rc6ular. In c tbc ._,firs-t pla , a v;1~ict for dnnHtgcr; L.:, obtained. Then. under the nrncndn1ent, ou n1u·· t flrst levy on the goods or rn,moy of the offending party. The offending party in this case is a r-Lra\Y con1pany \Vithout a penny ln the v,'odd. Then you go hack on to its plnnt~ and in the meantime, \'chile you have been trying to di ,,rov·-'r that-it \Yould take you F:Orno t~mn to di ·"OYer whether the\" have any other as c·ts or not~thcy go into liquida­tion, and tllo vcrd · ,,t of th0 jury also goes into liqnidation, [:.nd you rank as an Ol'dina.ry crbditor.

The Attornec·-Gen<Tn] suggests some altera­tion of ''The Prlnters and Ne\Y~paners l1..et of 1'"'.14'' to put tho law back: ,~-hrrr' it was hefor;. a 1d whPre it exisL in P\'cry other State of Au-trali,t and in every other British Dorni!lion and in the United S<atc-. of

It is to be put back to make a or publisher subject to bonds to

g-uarani-e·:; the corn:nn::nity against libPllous, blw pherr:.ous, and seditious stat0n1ent-;·. 1'\obod;, know, what blasphemy is. I believe the general idea is that blaephmny is that lor <vhich you un be punished if you are found guilty of bcir-:r bla~phc:nou~. It is the ::;niiH~ \v:th ~: ·dition. Sl'dition is that for vvhich yon can be punished if you aro found guilty of bci11g l'ditious. I1l any caS(', thcs bonds arP to b0 forfP:itab1P to th·: Crown. The arn -:ndrnent ncnv proposed b~v t h~ _\ttornoy­Gc .tt'ral i" n0t in forr--~ anvw~1crc els0 that I kno\'\ ( f in t}H- C~Ol11lTIOD\Yt~a1th. _.::1.._s R matter of fact. h opens th(• door to ill"t ... ,:hat has lncn done. and the A+t:1Tncv-Goneral's •rh-i ·. 1'.' mnst h >Ye boon promnt£rl from out. side. ·

Tlw ATTORXEY-G E!o:ERAL: Neither is the old la;,,- in force an:. where else in AUstralia.

:i\Ir. BEDFORD: But it was in force in Nev; South \Vales until New South \Vales it.self grew bevond it. It was in force in ='Jew South \Vales when New South Wales had less Lhan tlw population of Queens­land. and when there was a village "John Norton '' in alrnost ovc: \' rura] town .an 1 it ':·1, nC'r ._. _ar)~ to pl~otPct the citizens against such wild and irresponsible persons. As settlement incrc cscd in ::"'ie1v South Wales, thev found le .. s IBcossib- for it, and wiped it out; hu: we• have proved the nccc,:;sity for its existence hero. Here is the force of HH~ [Hnrndnl· nt: In ihe first plaC'C~ on get­ting :vonr verdict you attempt to levy on th" ordiretrv gcod· .. -on the money, land, and propc:·ty o( the offending person. That will t ~_ke vou -0111, time. bY \Yhich time a stra\v r-o111pan, c:->n go into ~liquidation; and the Pl·'ll who hns been offended and maligned i:3 left to rank a an ordinary creditor against a cc!nlpalJ~' vi·hich is probabl:v insolvent. I eh !JC.t kno'' '' hf'ther the .\ttorne\ -General lw tho:L ht. of thoct fact· ; but I 'am abso­lutolv c:'rtain that tlw new B'TWndrnent h" groY,:ll 0~1t of th~~ very happening ·which re .-ultcd in n1:_c second verdict for darnages_

The ATTOR="Ji~Y-GENERAL (Hon. N. F. li'IrLcgro •rty, South Brisbane) : I listened with a good de~! of intcroc;t to the hon. member for vVetrrcgo, and I sympathise with him in not boeing able to get his just rights,

Hon. N. P. IIIacgroarty.J

870 Art Union R'']ulation Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Art U!<ion RcJuldion Bill.

but, i!l :s1)Jt-2 of \\hat he sa-·e<, I cannot see that tl<.tt lHts anythin • to do with the sup­pUrr of tJw pnnt1ng pn_~s outside the prjnt­i:ag prc acLu:dly u~ed. The su~-gcstion 1nadc Ly t.hc hon. 111Cn1bcr in no way· applie9 to 1ny mncrHiment. Before a verdict is obtained the defendant can go into liquida-1 :an. Anybody ho w ,,nts to defeat his f, cdit-:>rs. ar..-1 \Yho ha., ju~~ an ordinary jndg1nc;;t t rnav find \Vn-vs ttncl meallH to so if ·, ants to be dishonest about thP matt• r. I am suro the hon. mem­b~r for \Yarrc'ro rC'a,ll·.~ ;_,grccs ·v. ith me in his brut th; t tlw cupplirr of a printing press >ho··ld J:ot, ]y liable outside the printing press it• elf.

)Jr. : •,•:, ' i!l le t1·e that out; but ·our tnakcs .it wol~se.

Tltc .•\ TTOR:-:-EY-GENERAL: I do not a,!.!,TeP ···i~h the hon. n1:..>1nbcr.

\Vith re ·:ad to the "'l;.mested alteratiou in co11ncchon '-' it-h bonds, I am quite pre­pared to hen· \Yhat anv hon. mornber has t~) sa~- < 1ncurning -,\·hct\or it is to h~ the Crown o;· otherwise which is to have the r-i·.;ht t-J 0nforc0 thcrn. ~T,,: des:iro is to pro­tect pcoDln 2-gainst lib---L and to improve the law of defamation. I am not out to do anv inj cm· t a an yon c be this Bill. I n ~lly feel thet it i> a j'.: t amendment, and that it is for the lwndit of QucetJsLwcl that it should be ;:gTC'l'd Lo. I arn qu1te prepared, rs I said, to h('3_r the ""~;:ic' ·:: of the hon. rnembcr for \Varre~o in TCf.!<Hd to the rnanner in "--hich the ben cl should t '• intr ,cJuood-not in this Bill, but in an arncndrncnt of "Tbe Printers and ?\eY S)O.]Wrs Act of 1914."

J\fr. ::YluLLAX: Have you given any con­~idPrnt"on u; to ho·,y sections 661 nnd 667 of th~ Cri::1inal Code will b drcctcd by this?

The \TTOI~XEY-GE:~~ERAL: I have. It Is e, matter which I do not 'hink should bo

l.!nr1 r~r this Bill. I an1 ~cin:; to ~~,hethnr thn Criminal Code can bo

R1Tit ndc•fl i:a thrlt lT p ·et. l\Yr. :\lc;Lr '": At prcc,cnt?

The ATTOR::\EY-GE::\ERAL: I ill look into thRt ~..:1ath)r IJOW.

·'~ nh_:ndr:~ ~nt (JI r. JI ar·gronrty) agreed to.

C'lau.~~· 2, as a.rnenclcd, <-<g"-~~:ed to.

The I-Tru"c ·rc.sULH:d.

Th0 c;- \Hn.L\X rctHJrh c1 th 2 Bill \":ith an HLtr·ndrncnt.

Tilird rcac1i~J·?' of of the D·1y for Tuc·

Bill rruJ.do an Order next.

8Eco:~n RrL\DIXG-RESU:\IPTION OP DEBATE.

l\Ir. POLL(;CK (Urr(Jory): \Yhcn th' second Tr _1.ding drbuic ;-,a:'i adjourned bYo or thrc0 \Yeek5 <1q;o, I ·, -s explnininf; to the 1--Iou~e tho unfainJ< ~ .... o£ prohib~ting all tbosC' gamblilJrr ~;ho11 .J ,,-hich gi'. ~ tL:? pubEc an

dwnco of sure· ::::s .;ith tl1c opera-to unde-r the guise

1ho ,' }n vvhir1l th~~ ha.Yc no chance Ltc,~er against the

r_rc rator. I 1' <-~t~__·hed one gan1e particularly which was played in !lvc or eix dificrent quart 0 r:._; on the Exhi~ ition r;round 'l at the last shcnv. It 1 played under tlw gui~~c of a side-show, \YOuld no doubt bo call0d a ga,rne of skill. I watched that game for an hour in one particular place. There was an average of sixteen players gathered

[Hon. N. P lffacgroarty.

round th<"so celiuloid ball', which cost very· little. playing this game. They were con­tribntjng sjxpcnce each a time, so that out of H1eir custom the operator of this turn­out \\ ould receive C:, overv time those balls we-re blm;n into the air. Anybody who was able to get four or more of these balls into a not w .• s entitled to a box of chocolates costlng ls. or 1H. 6d. at the outside whole­Pale. 'rhree tin1es out of four somebody got four of thO' e balls into a net. Thoro were sixteen r)layors, arJd there were occasions when nobody got the ,four balls in a net; w i hat. for € very 32s. in.-estcd by the public who were playing on thee,~ n1achines the prb­nrictors paid out not more than 4s. 6d. There v.-~rc four garr1e'.· or runs every fifteen minutes, so that in every fifteen minutes thr, m .• de , net profit of 27c_ 6d. '!.'he capi­t,al invesied in the \vhole turnout might be £15 io £20 at the v-ery outside, although from what I ~ould see it vmuld not bo worth unything like th~t. When I mentioned this game to the Attorney-General, he said that it was r~ gJ,rne of skill. It may be a game of skill. There mav be some element of slzill in it. I have hoard some people say that '' two-up " is a game of skill. I think it is-if a man can handle a double-beaded Jl<'Itlly propnly. But that is not the point. Tho point is that the odds arre very greatly against tht· public in the gan1e referred to.

I am not c1 ,:,IJ:1lai:Iing of the gener:ol side­shm' , ' hc're the proprietor shows some novelt,. or gjve the public some value for­its mon• --. l am spc •king· of this b.:ll game and maw others, cuch ns the type of game vyith v·oodcn boJj hcin.o· rolled into hole's, :~~re th0 chance::;:> again·t the· pnbl1c :--1.rP nt 1oDst twenty to one. Their object is to appeal to tho pcoJlle by m.1kin-, thern believe thev hav0 a ch~l_nce of getting sor!JethinG.5· for lF)tting. The.--e things a re opcratinn all round the country to-\vns~ \Vr· arc led to bdicv-c that those towns can­not clo without side-sho1NR. r~Phe Country Part.'~ ought to ha vo something to say about 1 ho c~uc tion. JJ.,•cuu~:-; the farmer~. their e:n1pJoyces. and ('VfT_yono else. arc h::;ing mis­haJJdled bv the thil vc..-" and "crooks" \vho, lo 1 ver_y~ br:J cxl,:::nt running thosr:-dnvict ',. I c,Jn1d :not outside this liou·e. T woulcl not dare do so; but I hont -tl,y b0Ecvc thrtt a pcrr~·Jtage o.~: Hw '~'Foplo \Vl1o lTtll an1c-:-:, partly (;£ .:::kill atld fJ~-:rtl:v of chance, at conntry

" croo' " ln shape o1~ T n•t!l.v ··t the p'.lblic

Ar; ,in, I rm;uinc side­

ilr>Gni~e to th.:! public

\Ye~·~· (, fr~tit n1a( 1 ~inc:-: ., tonp 'd? 1 mue to ')£ ga1nbljn~.

to c : ... :1pl1< -· ,o El v say th<1t they 1YcL·e stO]lpcd 1\'"'i'.dJ~; \ RS reco-~n-;spd hv the GoYc>rlrt;f'n~. u.nr1or cxtrc:nc ~pubEc Outcry and b'. """of pnblic Ln 'UJ'C, tb ~the p:Jb­Fc h~-.d na rhanrc ''+ 1evcr against the operator of the r- 11aeh inc:;. I know one <·<J,.:' iu \'~,Tt'stcl·n Queen~18nd wh0re a man

<.:d a fruit n1nrhino from America a rost of £110; :md he ad m ittcd to me

that he paid for it inside a fortnight out of l ,-ofit,-. It i ·. obyioas that the public harl no chaneo against hin1 and, thcre­for0, if i h( ~,• rnachin .: 1v,....r J c;:;topped because t J1n pab1ic had no chance but were being robbd, "·hieh is probably the most correct,

Art ['nio:c Reg;t/ation Hill. [10 SEPTEJ\IBER.] Art l'n 'on Regul"tion BJ'. 1<71

if blunt, way of putting it, obviously these other gan1e'· p11\ycd beside side-shows ought to be blocked also.

I \Yould not obje:·t if the mone,- obtained by the opera tors of the ',e contri;ances \vas going to charity. \Ve have admitted that pTinciplc in this House~ before to-day-in the " Golden c·osket " and oth~r forms of gan1bling-nnd, once \VO adrnit the p1·inciple of ga.n1bling for charitv7

' it n1atters Ycr;· Jittl(' ~vhat fo,·n1 _the gan1bling takrq, so long as lt 1S for chant able ]lllrpos'"; bnt I Jo object to. tho public being robbed by thcoe COil­

trivanccs purely for priYatc gain. and n1ost:)' by a cl a'S of person who is of vnv little use to the cc-::~nununity. ~

J ha VC' bet>n reading- a VPl'\7 intcrestinr.~ hork in thr~. Parliarnentary Ljhr~ry c:dled ''Look ac Chl~Clgo," bv Eclward D. Sullivan. He lJa:-> taken on hir:nself to cxpo:c:o the garllblin ~. !he FUnl~I'iH~ning, t}-.'C bootlegging-, the hi,,.h­pckl_nr,; .. ana dl the other c\·ils j bat y:o with }Jroh;blt.Jon and the attempt to secure slv grog for the public ut"{·'r prohibition. Tin,; ,, -r1te1·. Rlat"s ,, cry definitely that thf-·W gan1Ll1ng 111 (:hlnE'': were the Yery fir t thi11!r ns(d in Chi( <:·;·n when the gali::st-Prs u1a(f~ wur on Oll_::', ~tnot1H'r in the boodct:,!~ing- that went Oil. l:.::ft says~

"D0vc•r had raiJcd a.ll types of ,-ice Jo/' 1 t 10-~.". 2"an1hling hclls, and drinkjng reso1~ts, and Thomp.son, \>:ho had t•.vice pre\-lOU ,ly ~'t rve l us l\Iayor o£ Chic .tt;o,

a dc·liber[:Jl'· can1ppjgn appeal to nnden odd. lie prmniscd a 1\·ide­

o:-wn Unvn. and a rnonth <~ft0r his c1ec­twn all th" elements that Devcr had (:rro~·cd ere having hio·h ctrnival. Gamblinr:; machines, contrc';'lled bv Ca-

'•"L'f(_ placed CYPn in drug Storct'. ::t~~c~1n •s. speHing qnnetcrs out

at ra rr~· 1ntcr\ a1 . crrn b0 . dju: h· ·.l to rn tkP th0 pla:7 p:~ rnore and more foolish. At 1·.-,.;t the dnncr~. are thirtv to o-:-:u against. the\ fC'llow bucking th0" n:Htchinc. It wa • n "trw golclcn flood for tlw c-:~tpono fo1'Ct.:s. ::\1cttn\Yhile, affa1rs in Lh;c ,go ],.c] to a polit'cal In

bomb-

nll ecuntf'Et:'!lec it, and f'YC'11

the church. :sup­n and ar-., thut

i~ js aL·):ishcd-~

J\h. C'C·"n~Lo: He' c'. pcrsonrrlly.

r;.ot support it

He ;aid th"t he would that it ., ould bo abolished, .:un1

Wr.Y little hopo that it odd

The ATTOE~EY-C · '\~HAL: -)_ ou arc not hold­ing tha~ a · j11st hirr1?

~Jr. POLLOCK: I think hie attitude ;,, clue to forn of circumstances. I think that many another good man has gone wrong in

;:ir:nila1· circnlnstanc0s. \Ye hax0 not te1k0n a l1i;:,h rno al f'tand in regard to garnbling.

[ repent ,vhat I ~<Lid at thP opening of Pl.V r.:mark· -that \Ye con1J nen:r agrt~'.: to allo1~, thi', Bill to go t.hrongh this .House i1' , \VC'l'C ag- inst tht; vrinciplC' of g,'~llnbling ---if \YC harl anv n '.;.,rd foi· h;~h tnorals and hig·h pt~]cs. in tllr'<~ }·eg~rcL "\\:, l1aY0 ::t~ln:lttr~~

)>l'mcrp!t, \ntn b!C Golden C ''·ket.' ('V( :vOill' of U:) is to son1o extent :.:.

·::":11Ller;" 1Yllf ther '"- e bt• garnblers in ono Jornl oL· ;_:nntltc•r rnnttc•t \"Pl'V little-the

i., th- ~a1n' ILt\·j~1g ~tdrnitt~d t}>c o£ t~aiubling, it ~hould be our

~C'·' that only dc·Prving bodies are to 11~e -:. rnbling deYicc"·. It ought

our :·im lO f..l'C that garnbling i:3 con· :ts f·lt' as ))Ossiblc, to ~haritabJc pur~

pc_.:('"', Hncl that the proceeds go for chari­Iabl(' purpo·.P~'). If the public ure to be r:Jhbc'd at all, \VC can :-:_,l.lnJ our e:u:nscicnco only b,v Jll'Ov1Jing that the proceeds of the 1 olJb 'ry arc to go to eh"- rit,v. or to educa­tional, nat!'iotlc, or otltcr in~titut:.)nS, \vhith

ill ju:-'t.if: onr 1Jcrrnitting this evil tu exist at all.

J lln.Yf' YPrv little £urtl1(~r to ~:-ty in regard tC) the mc:ti,;r. [ reqret th t tho Attornoy­c;onc'r-11 has ,{_rn iit~ to rule out of court i h:, Eight-hvur Day art union. I regret

hE' hns rul0d out in ono i!JJtance n. fo;· trades hall, and that hG

to gr,nn: a pern1it for gvrnb1ing £or purpo~c \',·hiht at the ~,rrn1o tin10 grant­

IH'rr1it" to other clcsclTing institutions. Permit~ al'c gl,·cn by the hon. gcntlen1an to tlh' CmJntr·' \Y01ncn's .Association. Ko doubt that a~·oc{ation hns clone Ycry good ·work fqr country wornen; I arn JYit denying that.

Tb0 ~\TT:JH.\"' Y~CEXEH.-iL: }f that ·~,,ocia~ 1 :ou 1 ot ( ou1o , i:. hin the regulation:~, tf:~ll cannot gPi a pern1it.

or auv t ~·a de,

POLLOCK: \Yhctlwr an art union in ('i~liL-lJOLH~ LlOYC:n1e::_1t or in aid

fund o:.· library fund for a '>'.ithia the st lpe of the

ol.' 11ot, the fatt remains ~ t : c ·\viH Hot giYc thern

·', lllistcr 111, t he h ·.:: p ·rmit-

1 it i~ U1l·ci~e and r"~'lfa:ir to allo , to bo 2,·ivcu for g:1mbling for .'<'ne c._:Lu·n.tional purposes and not for o' hcl'i'. 'J'lut is tho bono of my contention. I 1JOP~' ti:at ..._:\ttornl'Y-Ceucral vvill recon-:--:dc_ t lw tl he lu~s arrived 8t on this '.alter. n ill treat all educational 1_:1 r_ · 1 ,:;; on t[H ::'.!l!llL L-:'1 ·s. :~:any unionists

1Y~l0:;1 1vhcn \Vcrking \·c·r~Y htrcl at ork £or my living

ft._._o Jil-,ral·ic~ at son1e of the in \\~ t -:t('rll Qnc~nf'ln.nd. They

re ci1 eel ::-nl fro1u the Go-vcrnn1r.:nt. Tlw libr:u·ic·s wcro as t=:;ooc1 a.s n1ost priva.te l-ii;rarir . 'l 1:: r;.;·2 ntunLer of c ~tizens-;-;or:~c of 11 tll'C .___no~: in Parll<lDlent-

a 1o~ of inf0rmation fro1n those ;u d a~- rC'sult hn.>:o able to

n;ained fron1 soui'CCB

in th;s and other Parl:a­'l'qncntly. it would bo unfair to

all Trades Hall libraries and all HlOYl~.l:;. cnt-q frorn pnrticiprrting in the

b0ncfit of pcrrnits in Yie'v of the fnct lhri t c; p:::r1nits ar ''~'iYcn for other purposes nuL~7 not be so desirabl(\.

}lr. KERR (Enoggera): This Bill is d' signed to make better provision for the conduct and control of lotteries, art unions. and raffles. It has been generally recognised

Mr. Kerr.]

Ari Union Rcgu'ation Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] A1·t Union Rcgulat1:on Bill.

during the lrst few years that log;slation ,-:long· the-e lines is absolutely egr;ential. Thi, is not a g~mhling Bill. It simply sEeks to ·Htrol art unions and similar matters,

in doing so 1vill serve a. very useful pur-Vu. fc,, pc·Jple in this community

a word to '"",~-7 against art unions they recogni -e they serve a very

n: purpos '. Sorr18 eight or ten years ago I a~ked -~ qu-:-'"tit-n in t:his 1-Iouse with respect to the num·0~e of art unions then being held in Qur .mlnnd. I found that the number was 432. In i.h~ f<•w short i!ltervening ye ocrs that HllU1 1· 'l' }w:-; g~'O'.',·n LO 0\~Cr 1,200.

1\Lr. PE.\' E: Shockiilg 1

is not shocking to my way but art unions have grov: n

that legislation is ncces­thcln and define exacthT under

a pPrmit shall bo granted. d(nn1 the only conditions upon ·"

1Hdl be granted. _\rt unions be he> Id for ot he. than charitable

and educational purpose~"· I disagree with the co~:..t:::·ntlon that an art union should be hold £or an, political purpose. For ins:- ,nee no one can argue tl1at thD Eight.

Art Cnion or the ·'Golden oth·~r than n,n illegal })Urpos .....

The 1wn. member for Grcgory referred to Jibr,nies attached Lo shearing sheds. I have no doubt t-lwt if a bod>- of m~,n in a shearing shcL. applied for pern1i:.sion to conduct an art uniOn for the pu·rposes of supplen1ent.ing the cont:::nts of thC' !ibr<:H)7 thf' Attorney­General, if satisfi,,d with tbe application, would grant it.

[4.30 p.m.]

Unquc,:ionably tb0 ex-Attorney-General ~~ho;v .d a trmnc•u.._-mlt3 arnount of cliscrimina­tim ... in rJlation t0 nrt unions .and raffle.:>, but thoro was no "ell-doflnrd line of nction esta1>lished.

Nir. ~11:JLLAN: D1d I ever turn you down in c,JJu.tect.ion with <t, legitirnato application?

:\ir. KERR: I will not agree with the bon. m'Ombcr's definition of the word '· legibrnatc." The hon. member refused· my :<pr'~c:~tion in soP1C instances, althou:?'h he granted it in others. I do not say for a moment that the• Government will depart from sorno of the rulings given by the hon. men1ber vdwn he was Attorney-General; but I do ac- that the_. late Government did not J :1 Ye pr,oper control in this rnattcr.

J\'Ir. J111..'LL.\K: ri his is going much further.

:'Ir. KF:RR: TJw Bill ,,;]l merely carry out nH'_n_v of the ruling-s n11dc by the ox­d'\ttorney-Gl·ncraL 1vhll~t at the same time {

1 LJnring that thC' in:-:tructions 1vhich are i ···trod with each permit ~hall bo complied \V7th. _"'..lthongh tltc ex-,\.ttorney-Gcncral tni~ht stipnlato Yvhcn permits were issued for :crt unions and r.dfles that a balance-sheet would be mppli~d, he had no authority by dcfinit·· action to doa] with non-compliance with <he im-d·nctionc. There was absolutely 110 cbeck, as I shall prove from remarks wade by the hon. nwmber for Flinders when he occupied the po;;ition of Attornev-GeneraL In 1922. when the hon. member wa·, asked a queshon in rcgnd to the distribution of prizes in a certain .art union, he replied, "I have no reason to believe that the proceeds were not allocated in ac,ordanco with the permit."

[Jlr. Kerr.

\!though the hon. member may have had. no r,,o -on to bel: eve the t tho proceed'' wore

allo,,utcd in nccorrlance with the permit, fact that hP had no facts in his

office to , the allocation was n1ade in tcrm•1 of tho in·.tructions issued. Had the hon. mcn1 Lor inquired into ~uch a c~se as the IV nmum c.csc. to which reference was made c ,;·Ler in the.debatc. he would have known how unsatiofactory bhe position was.

;, n'rv little in this Bill to which can ·b" takPn; indeed, it is the

type of Bill which the hem. member for J.lindcrs would have had pleasure in intro­c~uciPg hims~lf. In 192~, vdwn the hon. llH ·, brr for Log,m, who is now Secretary for I?u blic Instruction, asked tho r\..ttorney­CL ·lcLJ \vh, th~r t.hor\ .. ' v. ,tS any supervision

to ensure that the aliocation of connection with art unions '\vas

to, the ox-Attorney-General empha­that he ·.,as in the hopch -s pos1t10n of

no authority to enforce his decisions.

~ Lr. :\ll'LLAX : \Yhat did I ,ay?

T\{r . .:CERH.: The hon. n1en1b"r's answer IY< C"-ccedincrlv unsati·,fuctor and evasive, nnd sho\':cJ

0

tho holplc· s pC-.ition of his dcpartn1cnt jn this InattGr. J give the hon. ,~LlDLWl' credit for i ~:..utng a circular sLtting forth tlY conditions under which permits for art nnions .. cte., \Yould be granted, and in which reference w.:- made to the necessity for '' list of prizes being stated and a balance­sh,et submitt·'d later. The trouble was that the hon. member could not enforce those conditions; ancl it is to ovorcon1e that diffi­culty and to plRL' the whole watter on a proper bac·is that this Bill is introduced.

I say dc:·mitoly that I am not again·>,t art nnions. If a r0lig-ious, educational, or chari­table lnstitution require:; funds, the \ery ;Jest vv,:y of raising then1 is to have an art nnion sanctioned b> the Attorney-General, SI) that c".-cryonc will contribute his quota and in th ot v, ::ty the institution will got a lnrgcr arnou:nt of rnone,'--. A number of institut'ons of bP'lelit to this country are cnaL!ccl to curry on their undertaking~ by ,-irtuc of the funds rcccin'd from art umons. The Gov .crnmcnt arc not an,·so to those art unions; but vv-e an' avorso to art unions bring· -indiocriminately carried out without the sanction of the Attorney-General. We must bn ve authority to s~e that, when a permit is gntntod, the conditions laid dow_n in the pPrmit arc carried out; and th1s legislation will give the Government power to enforce those conditions. The ex-Attorney­Uenr•ml knows. and the present Attorney­General v.-ill boar me out when I say, that to-da:- it is not possible to enforce those condlt~ons.

The next question that a.risos in connection •· ith this Bill is that of foro. It will be acblittcd that, when we have some 1,200 .art unions a year, they cost a good doal in the '""" of adminioJtration: and under this Bill the cost will be a good dert! more. If an in"titution wants tho Government to do a certain thing for it, it is only reasonable that the people who are getting the benefit should pa:.- so"nething towards the cost of the ad.rniui- tra tion.

Mr. I-lAKLOK: This is just another tax.

'-Vlr. KERR: It is not a question of taxing th< oe people. It will be a nominal foe. If there were no Department of Justice, and permits were to be given for charitable and educational institutions to hold art

Art Union Regulat1:on Rill. [10 SEPTEMBER.] Art Union Regulation Lill. 873

;mions. dm, the hon. mcml•er think it would be the. function of the Government to estab­lish a burcatt and employ clerks, t~·pists, auc:ito1 ", a.nd others to run tho Lureau? Does tho hon. rr::en1ber not think that the pcop:o who get the bonPlit should pay the cost of athnini~trcttion.

:i'llr. for the

You do not charge pcoplo rendered by the police.

Mr. KERn: Th::tt is dono in a hunured rliJtercnt \nt· s. Go to the Titk~ Utlice, the Stamp Duties Oftice, or the lncomo Tax Oftico-tho people have to pay for the serYio••s rondel'ccl. Uur trouble in the past has been that '' 0 ha Ye been too gt:;_nel'ous in providing ser, ice, '' itbout cool to the people. The co.-:..t of adn~ini~tcrir1g art union~ is trcrnon­douc, and fo•.;s are justified. It is not a <JlW<tion of compulsion. If the people do not ·wu.ut a pC'nnit) they arc not unnpellcd to lake one. It is purcl:, a voluniai·y applica­tion, unJ, if they arc not 111'21. trcd to pay ~onlothin&.;· tovvan1s the cost of adrrLin1sL.ering tho Ad., then they should not h:ne the privilege of the· d art union:::. I ;:nn q11ite convinced that the Governments of Australia ~~nd oCnf'r 1: ountrirs have bt en too generous in the n1atter of tloing work for uothing.

If \VC go to a doctor, la1vyer, or any other pcr.son iu the r:::nnn1unity to get hirn to do something for us, we have to pay hiru. If we go to buy so1ncthing in a shop, overhead oxponses have to be incurred by the pro­prietor to cover the wages of thoF!'' -,.vho arc eervine;. lf the administration of certain thing:::; costs money, is it not logical and just that the people who go in for thu.e things should P"-"' for it c The AtLomey-General has told us what a great a1nount of admini:'3-trativo vYork is involved in connection \Yith the 1natter.

:i'lh. MULL.,;.; interje< ted

Mr. KERR: There is no parallel between the granting of permits for the holding of art union, and the auditing of the accounts of the " Golden Casket " bv the Auditor­General's Department. I have dealt with the various arguments of hon. memuers oppo­site and also with the principle of the Bill with regard to the payment of a fee for permits,

I now come to the question of lotteries. The way in which lotteries at the various side-show,.: ha.-c been conducted has been one o£ the most scandalous things I know in the State.

The position up to the present in con­nection \· ith the administration of side-shows and tho granting of perrnits in connection the rev. ith throug bout Queensland as well as at the Kational As.,;ociation Show in Bris­bane has been very unsatisfactory. A man may be operating here r<nd then travel to :mother town in Quc<?nsland, where he may find himself brought up bdorc tlw police court for not conforming to requirements, but gets off on payment of a fine of £5. He then goes to another town and operates without anything being said to him. He then tra.-cls 30 or 40 miles, and again finds J.imself brought up before the police court. vVe should be able to define clearlv what is a game of skill or a game of chance. One 0f the duties of the Attorney-General under this Bill will be to say what games can oo lawfully played and permits issued, so that, when a man goes in for a side-show, he will know just where he is. If he does not go to the Attorney-General or the Commis-

sioner of Police and get a permit to operate t.hro<lghout the >Vhole of Queensland, he will be b1·eaking tho lav· and can be brought befor0 the court. The position to-cla>- is absolutely intolerable. The better cl as~ of sho,;vn1en is now derna.nding that smncthing shall be done in this direction.

Mr. l'EAtE: All Fhowmcn are not gamblers, then 1

:Mr. KE.RR: :Xo, they are not gamblers; they aro out to make a living. Some of the 8-hoYn:ncn are VEry decent indeed, as I can pi'Ove by a letter which I shall read before I cit clown. ln 1926 I asked the then Home Seer< tary this question-

" Are all the showmen operating with garnt:.'S of chance or skill at various annual shows in Qucenshmd issued with any licenses or permits?''

The Home Secretary replied-" The police issue no license or pennit

in 8uch cases." That infers that men have travelled from all tb0 other Statec of Australia into Queensland. They huYo opt•ratcd in this State without licens.es or pcnnitf. Ther(~ is an overlapping of authority between the Police Department and the local authorities. The local authori­t~cs in va1·ious areas have different regula­twns, so that men >Yho are legitimately earning their living in this way do not kno\Y where they ttre. VVhcn thev make inqniries to see whether they will "be per­mitted to operate their shov. J, the local n utboritics, if they choose, can refuse to allow them to oporatu, and the result is r.h,;t these men do not know where they are. These shows are so1no of the n1ost attractive fcaturn in a cmmtn· town, It would be a tragedy. particularly" for children in country tmcns, if Uwse shows wore wiped out.

~1r. I--i.Y~~!-3: The shell and pea rnan?

~I r. J\.: ERR : The hon. nH~mber, of course, hn, somP knorlcdc:c of that. I have not. Hc'ccntly I had tho pleasure of going to Gatton with the hon. rncmber for Lockyer, and I took particular notice of the sideshows d <'J'C. l scty, witlwut hesitation, that some of t ho1n VY~)re n1agnif-icent I took particular no~ ice of th o people running them, and thev st·f'!llcd to br: a good class of people and verY wr!l bc!Jaycd, and their ;hows were attended by 1mws hundreds of persons. The point I y.,-a nt tn urge js th::tt these people arc con1ing from thr' other State, to Queensland, and tbcv ha Ye to fiHd out bv side door methods whether. for instance;, they can operate a p·.-nne f'uch as the fruit~n1achine game bcfora th·'y can pitch their tents. This Bill is 'Jlr•eiallv designed to help those men-not to \Yipr them out. The object is that the Attoruey-Gc•neral ~hall have control, and that no sl10wmnn v,;ill be .ab1o to opC'ratc in

unlc -)S he po~ >csses a permit. vviH be no going round the corner to

sec wfwther the chairman of the shire council \Yill lc~t hi1n operate in the town, and no gc.ing round a not her corner to sec whether th{ ~Prgeant of police will object, because he will have a definite permit,

AIL 0PPOSITJOX MnmER: Just what do you m an b; thn.t?

?dr. KEH.R: I am not casting any reflection 01 nnvbor1v. I am not suggesting anything such ns the hon. member appears to have _in h;,_ mind; but I say that there is a confl_ICt n; authority. The hon, member's suggestwn is an e;·il' suggestion; and I say that, if

Mr. Kerr.]

87-~ Art Union Regula!1·on Bill. [ASSEJ\IIBLY.] Art Fnion Rr;;ulotion B1:ll.

th~se shownwn are inyjtc.d to corn(' here, tht<l they ar entitled to Go-vcrnn18llt protection Ul_!dor lcgi ,lation. rfhese nL n aru entitled tc 0arn Hw1r li \·ing. They are givi~1g plensuru tn the public, ,~J.nd the ~-\ttonJcy-Gcncral diOu!d d1·aw up " fchcclule so that. \>hen

nh n conH' jnto Q1u•e nsla-.-- d1

they will able L) ask for a pcrn1it io operate on tho

raymcnt of " fnc, and tlwn they will be ablEJ t.n tl·-:Ycl and g·-iv{' t'hc•ir r-how~ in uny part of the State. A]l thosP sidc-shovi.r'o and ga!nes ar,, nut le' tcrir '· bL!t l think theY ~houlcl b3 p1nperly c mtrullcd. rrh(~ sholllJlCn ·who .are tnlY!•llin'.~ ;-trounrl (~U< ;-:_n~·larh1 ~houid bo

n.nd. if th('Y aro to bl' !icensc:L1, thc•n f~:e shr;uld bn charged.

-, 'r. II.\~~r.o~.;: Ah, the fee i;:; th~? thing!

lVIr. l(~Cl~R: l ran glve this as-,urancc­thnt I n P1 sure. tl1"1.t tho Qoyonnncnt a1·o not (nJ io 1 1:1 kc Lwney out of thi", BilL \Ve rn:u·ht 1 H kc an tlrt union such as the \.n"1bubnc.: Jirigade ~\rt ·union.

":r. D·'nl: .. \re you spcakjn3· for the G-•ycrrnuc, tt ~

.?--lr. lCEUU: Xo--for 111ysolf. ~Icn aro being pa~d a {a]r HIEOtlnt of r:noney in con­rocctio:J vYith ~': IHC' c£ these· art vnioL:L l-Ion. r'r'mbns ot'.d [:, surprised if they knew hoW n:uch thC'\" c~et. . \ Elan l kno~-,r \YhO j_, :--e-ll] n c; tickets_:__ l think h1 front of the Royal Ba' k-told me the other <lcw that he has rnade a~ rnulh as £1 a. da"V. 'rton. Jnembors nrust achnjt thnt, if these a~rt unions .are able t'r~> pay f'Tnploye·· £1 n day and oth-:r cx­pen:-::p:-:;, th0;,· are aLlc to pay for rhr--, udminis~ rr tiou of tho }\d. l think that is logical and fair.

H.'XLOX; Is that not tirkcL for tlw Lirnbh ,,

L"nio:1?

-~r. KERH: I think he i,.

111an ~:dw Jldiors' Art

:\Lr. 1L-\:~LOX: Is it a f2ir thing to a~k thorn to P<Y a ft~v; ·~bob" for a. fee?

2dr. K:Fl11{: I havo no hesitation in ~1ying t.hat ,u1 art u·1ion that is running like that <Juc, and i~ co·,ting tho Go"",'ernnH_ nt nroncy f:.n· adrnl.·i::·tration. should pay a snutll fr<.~. h: rna · be tl<'j·-ned that in onG cJ.se it \-vas li·dlculnu.; to ,cl\'l1l'1 IH1 a f:•e; but it n1ust bo rr'tnf'nlberod tbat thcr~; nre r.noro instances tf. n orw.

}Jr. I:hxLo:~: ).1 ·,ny perso11S who are appro<:-.-chcct b:v that individual nlaco 6d. in the llox without asking for a tid:ct.

J.\1r. KEJJR: rrhat js quite so. The publi(' nre ·y.-ry generous. and in that connection I think I shculd indicate the ps~chologi<' !I outlook of the public in general. This indi· vi dun l lr.fcnncd nL that i£ ho <a me upon his :,and \Yell circ:;· _.ed ho fonntl Jt vcrv difflcu:t sell tha ticket~, bnt if he can1e i~1 an old the people Wf'rc gcn( i·ous, nnd he rnade as niu·rh ~s £1 a dav. Ono \Vould be astnni ·hod to h_ Jrn tho Um.ount o£ nrofit cleriv<•cl b:· thH contrivances that provide chocolates a·- }Jriz,..,s. I have in m~- posslss:lon ~ornc corrc::pond:nce fro1n a certain indi­vidual Y r'i it"n horn Sydney, but I do not propc ,o to nH ntion his name. IIc came to Brisbane in rhar~'"c of a b~1lloon g-an1c, and can1c to S(.-:3 mr•. Ho l1ad been the m<:1nage·r of one of the lar::;est chocol·to factories in South AustraJi,,, rhcre he drew a salary in the virinitv of £800 a year. He rtscertained that tlw showmen in charge of show,; that tendered chocolates as prizes '"ere able to make over £1,000 a year, and he concluded

[;11r. ]{en·.

that if theso people could purchase choco· latrs h·orn hjs factory and rnakc that sun1 of mone.y lw could rdinquish his position and incl'easo that arnc~nlt for hhnscl£. J--Ie de<jdcd to relinquish his position, and with his wife traw•JI,,d t<> Queensland with a !Jal1oon ga:r1c. I-lc \Vas a very re:', pcctablL' man. He to 'l'Ocl the s•·ate and mad(' £2,500 a ,.c u by t.bis business. lie toured the who!,, of A mtralia. lf he is not in a position to pay a inr the ri<rht to operate a balloon g_::unr', I do not knc,·~v '·-ho js in a posi-tlon to puy. J-Ic c:-tn1c 'o Qucrnsland, and JH'OC'cPdocl to Ip~wlch, ''"h,•re he v;·as allowed to op~'rate. I-le told me ~ ,~rtain things th<1t I do no~ ~ to n1enLion. lie Droeceded np rl1c Coa.;;;t line a~ far aS G:y_rnpie, \Yhere 1v~ found hirnself in court, and was lined £10 for operating the balloon ga.me, lie tourc'd a f(- \V rnoro toY:ns in Queeru;land, and he informed me that ho then commuJC'ld to do what other people had been doing 'nnt:nuouslv, and no fnrther trouble t-;, L ~ltuatPd."

l\Tr. HA~LOX: You are insinuating dis­honC'st:;' .

Mr. KEIUt: lie ·rent clown to Coolangatta, v:h(~'ro ho \Vas look\ d at aJkP~nCt:. I-Ie \Vas

told, '· ·You cannot ope,rate her.~'." l-Ie close~i up his c l10w. took it over the !Jorclor fence. and •cl it in :\'cw South \Vales. These

e:onunon 1vith other rncmbers of ~-, ar,, jw~:tified in eal'ning their

living. r:Che fairnC"·~·. or otherwise of thf'· garne is a 111ai·trr for the oxr,crts of the Police Departtnent oporatin6 in conjuncbon ·with the Justice DcpGrtment. It is for them to ,a >vhetha a gomo shall or shall not be ~dlo1Ycd, .xnd 1crhcther or 11ot it is a game of 'kill or , gamo of chance. The Attorney­G,:nna! :Luu[d have the prn·:cr to say whether a ,·,•rmit shall bo i9suec1 or not. The imlividue 1- to whom I have re fened had toured the •\ hole of .Australia, !m:. upon 1ea ·n~ng ·t, ct·fL.}n p;:rt of Qu0.ensland he

a}]o--;--:·r>cl to op0ratc, and he could not thD position. The game was

elcev;hern as a fair game. If that 1111.n ccn10~ to Qu0enslancl and 1s able, by the

of a certain ff'e, to secure a license· rl··n lk y;i]] l:e able to tour th<e

--~'( .u1 the f et of his having been cl in Hr isle me v,ives to him a greater

u1r ,.sure ol security. I -xnnt to rcncl nart of a second letter

>Yhich I r:•cci,~ccJ from this man. I did not kno\Y hin1 <Jt all in the fir~t iuc\ UlCC. This letter ~,'. r·! in rcp]y to one ~.rh1ch I sent to him in rep!:' his firot letl:.r. In t!Jat lett,. :· ho made I threw that. Jc ~t· r c.n-;-Dv, I not thin:.: it \Yas irnportr_nt ~'Eou;h to : but in ln-- rcpl: I told biru that, if be could crn1)0c1)- the f')tat 1nade in jn a, :nvnrn u-ffidavit, then I he to i:1flucnc~ the Go-

Ye i:h~n1 invt •Jtigated. In the ho said-

" I n ·kno\~:lodge "\Yith thanks :·ours of the 19i·h ultimo, togeLh"r with parlia~ 7ncntary report. I quite realiPc what you 1,ay rcw-1nling affid':vits, but there is ~ n ,t difik-dty ln gPtting Eho:nnen to artuallv "toe the 1nark." I bavo no c1m- 1 ~t ~ 1d1 -·t0YC'r 1hat. if ~urKPn< 0d. I conlcl find Cibundant evidence to make an inouirv JncL,t i1"·er0sting, apart fron1 ITIV O\~·n 'and rny v.~ife's Statem::nts on oath."

He goes o" to repeat the statements for which I could not get affidavits, in which he

Art Union Regulation Bill. [10 SEPTEMBER.] Art Union Regulation Bill 875

alleo-ed that discrimination hnd taken place in the gr~nting of permits. I believed, and still believe that discrimination had been shown in that particular case, and u:1justly so.

Mr. HA::i"LON: Did you investigate his story about being the manager of a chocolate factory?

Mr. KERR: I confirmed his whole story. I admit that there was a little more in the severance of his connection with the choco­late factorv than I mentioned. His wife was not in .. good health, and it was to her benefit that she should travel.

I am very glad indeed that the Attorney­General has seen fit to make some attempt to control the granting of permits to art unions and like matters. This is not an attempt to impose additional taxation, as the small fee to be imposed will merely cover administrative charges.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: VY e might haYO to appoint inspectors.

Mr. KERR: Art unions to-day require to be closely scrutinised. Dozens of appli­cations to hold and conduct art unions, lotteries, and raffies are granted; but a par­ticipator very often cannot obtain any infor­mation as to the results of the distribution.

The ATTQRc-;EY-GEL«:AL: You cannot com­pel thorn to giyo you a result.

Mr. KERR : That is so ; they will not supply results to those participating until the law compels them to do so.

[5 p.m.]

Apart from already given, f-actor which n1ust

admit the Exhibi-

ptti'rons of the garnbl1ng activities were juveniles. Those arc the gambling activities which this Bill seeks to protect.

Another obnoxious part of the Bill is that 1-vhich sr::eks to raise money from gambling. 'When Yce consider the indignation which has been expressed in the past by the Trea­

the hon. member for Enoggora, and hon. members who are to-day sitting

the Government, who criticised the Administration for not taking action

up the system of gambling and to gambling generally, it is difficult to

these hon. members can reconcile ~peecbes then \Yith their support of the

before the House. The collection from gambling is a bad principle.

The Attornev-GeneraL in an endeavour to justify it. st"ates that a certain amount of expense 1vil] be incurred by the Government 1n Elin1ini~tering this legislation; but that is no justification for the collection of fees from this form of gambling. Fut·ther, if there is any justif,cation in allowing art unions or raffies to be held for charitable pnrposes, it is a rather mean and despicable thing to endeavour to participate in money which has been collected for the specific object for which the art union or raffie was held by imposing a fee.

I would also like to rder to the malicious in which the Eight-hour unions have

dt.acked by the present Administration convection with the T41111ing of thejr

particular art unions.

Th0 SPEAKER: Ord0r ! The hnn. mem­ber is not in order in using the word '" 1nalicious.''

HYNES: I withdraw that. I had to interview the Attonwv-Gcmeral

connortion with a pcrrnit fo1· tb~:? To\vns-Labour Council, who desirous of

r"nning their annual art; the proceeds of which 1-vent towards expenses of a picnic for tbe Townsvillo orpha:1s. and also for the establishment of a scholarship for the children of in Townsville. 'rho said

permit object.

the

Gcyernrnenh; the':'"!,\ b0cEcs to enablo

1 LC':~o to build Tra·de:-: 1In lJs. thC'rc:by that thev were sorncthing for &n:d ndvnncernent tbe 1l1P,s:;es of the

onn f:tiLs to undorstand h:::nv tht: Conc;:mnont can the antipathy

which thev ar0 now towards the Ei!!ht-hoa/ Art Unions m Queensland.

Mr. Hynes.]

876 Art Union Reguh:ion Bili. [ASSEMBLY.~ Art Un·ion Rcuulnti< J1 TiU.

I nho '"i::.h to st_d.1 tha: th:s pnrticular art u1.iun \vit.h which I wns associated has been allo\Yf'd o go on for the last hYcnty 2Ta~·s in

The proceeds of that art union gn tcv~ :trds g1ying the orph~t;l cLildren a day out, n:-Hl sornctimcs nvo days out., in the ·vear The children arc taken from ~hG ~)rphana.-·-e under the control of tho matron, and <:HY tak:Y .l ont into the country and given e. picnic. 'They also havG sports to amuse the children during the day. 'The result of tJ, .• \ttorn•_y-Gencral's action i;1 rcfu,ing to gi\·o thcnl pe::Tnission to conduct an art union th1s year \Vas that these unfortunate children were dcHicd the little pleasure they uoed to ha Ye once in the year.

The . \ TTORXEY-GENERAL: Do ;, JU s.ty that T rc{u Prl th: m a pcrrnit '?

~I:r. IIYNE.-o: Yes. Thtl hon. gnntloman ju:poscd ccrt.~in restrictions \vhich m-1,do it impo,sible for them to hold an art union. Th~ hun. gentleman said thc.t every penny ml!edccl would have to be devoted. towar-ds that object.

Tho \_TTO:a~EY-GF.XERAL: \Vhat is wrong with th"t? You sai-d I rdmocl a permit.

c Tr. liYNES: In this n;l! provision is n:u.rlc thnt h_<:·itinuttr- rxpcnses in the cJnduct ut thes" art unions 1nas be dcdu.ctcd h JITl the procc;,ds of the art u tton. Wn• did the hou. ~',:._IltlcrnuYl not do the dcc(~IJ.t thing alld tdl thos'~ PL'Oplc that thev could do that too'! \Vol'ki!_;_fr rncn con::;t~rqt0 th~ To\Ynsville .Lnbom· ,-_-:ouncil, ;,nd th• y shoukl not be asked tn be~r thP c:p~'nf-l-C of inauguratin~~ and con-

ing Pli art union for the purpose of tlw orphan children a day out.

They should not ha vc to put their hands into their pockds to do this; but they were infonn<'d that they would have to do it. They would not only have thfl trouble of organising­aJ!d. f"'Ondu,~ting the art union, but would aiw have to pa:, for the printing of the ticko~-, and Dny other incidental expenses attache ; to the conduct of the art union. 'l'hc ~'\ttor:ncy-General makes provision in tbi.; Bill for thc .. e legitinwtG c 'Cpenses to be deducted from the pmcceds; and that is wnwti1ing which he denied to the 'Town·- -ille Lal'our Council. thereby making it impos· sible for them to go on \rith the project.

The ATTORKEY-GE;;ERAL: You said that I refused a permit.

il1r. liY:?\ES : The J1on. gentleman refused thG privilege which they enjoyed in previous :years.

'l'he ATTORx,:v-GENEr:AL : Kot at all-I granted it.

ML HY:\ES: The hon. gentleman admits th • t ho gr:wtccl it subject to these condi­timJ

is another a'pcct of the matter to \V ant ro refer. Thero has been so1ne

r '2.TC>JCH:mt cnt.,-,red into between the Govcru­nt and the Ernployers' F0dcration. I-Iow

c"mc into the question I do not under­star,d. 1 Y. ich to quo' the following COl're· ~pondence~ ,vhich took plncr, Let\Ycen the Attorncy-Generar~'- Der1a1·tm<~nt and the C:.!ll(:Cll~~and An1bnlanc8 Transport JJrigado JiJXCCUtiVO~

" Department of Justice, "Drisl cne, 14th ?\oYember. 1929.

·' Sir,-With reference to vour letter of 13th Xov0mbor, asking fo.J: prrn1ission to conduct an art union at Townsville on 21st December in aid of the funds of

[lllr. llynes.

the TownS\·ill" ambulancn. I have the to infonn vou that in accordance

agreomon-1: (•ntcrf'd into ,,-ith the OuC'cndnnd Ernploycrs' Associa­

pcnnls~ion \Vill not Lo granted to horn 'Townsvil!o for the hoid-

i n c~ of 1·affies, art unions. or guessing colT1petii1ons during tl1o 1nonth of De­ccn~bcr, 1929.

" -Yours obediently, "(Signed) G. CARTER,

"Under Secretary. ''The G0neral Secretary,

"(~.A.T.B. Execntive, Brisbane."

of the general sccrctur~: of tbe \mbnbn<'e Trnn -port Brigade

follo1\·ing effect:-

"15th November, 1929. Th0 tJndcr Secrctarv,

;, ~Jn~ticc Df'partrri.'ent, " Brisbane.

"Dear Sir,--I have to aclmo·:-!odge rec ·ipt of your ]Qt,j 'l' of the 13th instant, ~H 1 \"islng th:1t, in accordance \Vith an al rcomellt: entered into with the Korth \ acc-J.sJunrl .Ernplo: crs' Association, per­m: ion wiil not be grantr·d for the hold­ing of rafJ-lcs at. Townsvillc durieg the

.onth of Dccewb,·r, 1929. ~,hall Lo glad if yoG will advise

" in n1aking thjs agreement the (_ l;:jEls of the Qu0cnslancl Arnbu]ance Tr:tn !JO.!'t l1rigadr, \Yho hold an annual art U11lon {Juring Dcccrnber in To\als­Y-i1lc, \YC .. 'C considered. 1 a1n under tho i~1prossion ihat the Empio:ycrs' . Fcdera­iwn would not oppo;e the granting of -1 ..

pciT-~it to the arnbulance."

.Jn.:ct ir~.·;·su1o the Queensland :bnbulance Trrrnsport- Brigade. which i' a. charitable institution and ha· been allowed to hold art ,-nions periodically through the year, having to ~;o to tho Employers' Federation f~r a p·rmit to hold an art union in Townsnlle! To mv mind that shows that the Attorncy­c;, ncr;tl in his administration is g-oing out­side his dt~parbuent and allovYing other infiU,TtOPS to obtrude thernselvos in connec­tion ;,ith thi, matter; und tlwt is not a fair thin~. That is the position obtaining in T-Jw~IsYillP, a.nd I take it that the san1o posi­tion o!Jt.nins in other towns throughout the Si ab. \Vh 'n w0 consider that the Eight-Hour Da·· C8mmittcc has always had the privilege of conducting art union~, for tho purpose of engagjng in educational propaganda. and looking after the wellbeing of the workers of this Sta~e. we cannot understand the attitude of the Go-;rernrn·- 1t in doing a'vay with thc•so permits. It shows that they are only onl. to endeavour to hamstring any in titutio.1 which has for its object the benefit nud th·' nd\-ancenwnt of the int0rcsts of the \\·orkjn:r claf:-:c-s of Queensland.

I do not wish to detain the House .at any r;•·eat >r length other than to say thttt thPo,o h' , pernicious principle; in the Bill are o1-1nox!ous to every rlght-thinki_:;~I n1an 1n l)u.een;,lrrnd.

I do Hot think it is .a fair thing for any Government to le;-y a tax on th< se illegal gEmes, or for the ~\ttorney-Gencral to take unto himself the po yer under this Bill to suspend sections 234 and 235 of the Criminal C'ode; but that is the power which he is taking, in order to allow these illf•gal games to be indulged in-these illegal forms of gambling which, as I have pointed out, are

Art Union Regulation Bill. [10 SEPTEMBER.] Art Union Regulation Bill. 877

patronised by the juveniles in the corn rr1unity-a class whom the Government are under " duty to protect.

:;1;1r. BRASSIKGTON (Balonne): Every fair-minded person will agree with the neces­sity for the exercise of efficient supervision of art union. end lotteries in the Stelte. It is cs-.cntial that the general public should be protectc'c], because on every hand wo see evjdcnco that these G.rt unionR and lottcrita aro b0in~· conducted. On nearl~.~ every ~t1. eet cornc r in ibe city ono is approached by persons who '\\ant to sell art union tickets. All the e things suggest to us the neces-,ity for supcrv' ·-ion. I. know, too, that the Department of J usticc grants the necessary permits; and, of course, to that extent these art unimJH n.rc all right; nevertheless there " proof that intelligent supervision is neces­sary.

I listened very closely to the remarks of the Attornev-Gcneral on this Bill and also those of ot];,,r hon. members; and I must confcs' that, while the 'l.ttorney-General clain1s that it is the intention of the Govern­ment to n1ove in a certain direction i.n order to giYc protection to the pPople, nev8rthelcss his claims in that direction arc not sub­Etantiatccl b. the prm·isions of the Bill. I think that hon. members will agree -,, ith me when I sa: that an examination of this measure rc,·cals the fact the t the intention of the Govet'llment is not altogether to pro­tect the general public. but is moro in the direction of passing a Bill which will ham­string the Labour lllOvcnlont bv taking aw(:V jts rjght to organis0 alL unioils or lotterie;, I claim that tho I__..~abour movernPnt is as rnuch entitled to run art unions and lotteries as. a, .y othc·r .'3C'ction of the corrnnnnity, and shol'ld lH' able to exercise that right In pre­ference to the large nnn1ber of advE:~nturers vrc: m0ct fl'Oln ~ir_n~~ to time running ehows at fmrs. and cxh1fntwns and conducting very qu~ ~tl~,n.able rr:ethods of " getting rich qurck. There '' no doubt that the real pur­pose of thi' Bill is the continuation of the vendetta svvorn b~,' tho Government agajnst the Labour movement and all it stands for. The rnain proYision is thrrt 1vhich denies to t~e Labour-Da3· celebrations committees the nght to organise art unions and thcrebv raise funrk I endorse what the hon. men:i­ber for Tovros,;illc has said-that for rnanv years that right was giw·n to these com'­:rn 1ttcr . 2.nd it has remained for the mo:::t onc-s]dcd, r0ar>tionary GovernnlCnt vvhich 9ueenslan~ hes over known to, take it a·.' ay Jn t for 1 ·;r sake of persecutm~ the party which enjoyed it. ~

The Attorncy-Gc n0ral laid dowa as the foundation for his reasons in introdncinrr this rnca;;ure something thnt orcurrcd at \Vyr~nu:m. The hon. gm1tlcman claimed that. un~l<'r the COYC'r of privil0;~c. the secrctJ,ry of the Aus­tralian I .ct'_:-onr Pnrty in that tCnvn bad used n rC'rtni!: b; ncl organi :ation to secure DPr­n1i"'c;ion to run nn art union ancl conduct raffles for the pnrpose of raising funds for th" \nstrrrlian Labour Party in that centre. !he hon. gentleman did not noint out the Hnportnnt fact that an honoln·able undor­ctanding- e·.,j,,ted bohl'een the band committee and Hw Vv'\nnum _\_nstraHan Labour Partv to run art unjons r.nd so forth ·for the pul:­pose of ra.isil!g fund~.

If thP band committee had not had t·l1o ro-opaation of tho '\Yvnnum Australian Labour Party· in the ra.isin'l' of fnnds on behalf of that organisation, the attempt would

ha vo failed, or. if it had not failed, at least ~ lrrrgo sum of n1onoy would have been paid a\,ay to P- r,ons to af:siA the cotnmittee to Inake a succc 3 of the carnival. The ~~rrangen1cnt between the \Vynnum Aus­tralian Labour Partv and the band com-

wau honoura.blo, fair, and above­and the ,_._ction in that case does no·G a sound and subTLantial reason why

Go~.-err;_mcnt should pursue their present Yendetta a,....ainst the Labour 1novement.

rrho .i\.'.I'TOR:\EY-GE~EH:\.L: \\Thy \Vas there SO mucL secrecy if it was aboveboard?

~,Ir. BR.~<. SSI:\GTOl'\: Evidently those. con­-ccrnccl W('f(:' aiY~-:..ro tlut thr,re was a Govern­ment in pm' Cl' that would persecut" them on e,-cry po 'iblc occasion. and they did not feel cbspcs~J to talw any risk.

In this connect} on, I de "ire to raise a very interesting point for considera­tion. On the one hand, the Australian LJ bour Party organisations aro refused the right to raise nccussary funds; hut, on Lhe other hand, privata individuals n rt: g:·anted pcnnisJion to conduct lotteries fc" eh( ir OW!C por"onal gain. I have in rn~- poqc;sioll a very interesting poster \vhich nppearod :in 1nany shop windo\v; throu _dwut the city, and had reference to the snlu of fresh Yolarbon rabbits. This poster "fl)Warcrl in the ·"hop window of the Fresh Food and Ic0 Company, Edwltrd street, Brisbane-

" Stlf>POHT QUEE::·'")L..:\.:\D INDUSTRY.

'. I":P.ESH YELARilO~~ RABBITS.

"Rabbit Comp,·tition, " Every pul'chac-cr of a rabbit will be

gi•, f'n a ticket ith a chaucc of wi,lning the kllowing monthly prize distribu­tion;

First prize Second prize

. Third prize

£5 £2 £1

" Vvinncrs will be anounced in the 'Courier.' the ' .il1ail,' and the ''l'cle­(~-raph' of .Jul.v 3, August 4, and Scptern­bcr 3, :tnd prize, handed over at Head Oftico. Fresh Food and Ice Compa.1y, I,td .• 511 Stanlcy street, South Brisbane.

"FnE3H FooD A'II.ID IcE Co1-IPAKY, LTD., V\' HOLESALE DISTRIBUTORS.

"1Lk for yo·:tr T:obbit ticket." (Opposition laughtet.) There is evi-dence that private incliYicluals and private cntorprisu < -ln conduct lottcrir·s for private gain.

An 0PPO~c:_JTOX l\IEJIE-:-'R: V\ ho is ac;-:;ociat.--d with the suppl.- of fr~ h Yelarbon r,,bbits '!

J.Ir. BR \ SS:;NG'rOX: If hor. men1bC'r:-: de. :ire to know the nL1ne of the pe1 ,on behind thP ~ni._ution conduct.1ng this parl ~cular

thc·n I can inform them that hu };.· a supporLT of the presc~nt Govcr11nv nt, :~nd a r.:ncrnber of this 1Iousc.

1\Ir. Pou.oc": \Yho is he?

J\Ir. BRASSI::\'"G'IOX: The hon. n1crnher for Ro 3" md. I have no cbjc 'tion lo that lwn. ge·1tlL'Dlnn orr;o..nising nnd adverti.:>ing l1i:- btr,iiH _; a~ muc~l as poss1bl8; but I do object to il-lf' Covrrnrncnt. Rllowin,' any indi­vidual or bnsjncss or _:;·!lli'"L~tion to have t:1e right to on:-anisc a lO~tcry for pri~ at0 gain, ';~·hi I-t ~~t th(~ san10 tirnc n?fusing the right' to oth0r sef'tlo:r.P of the communib·.

The ATTOnL-;EY-GLXERAL: Y.Ou know tb<:t that was stopp··d.

!'fr. BR \SSIJ\'GTON: The Govcncn:w 1t allo\ved this con1potltion to cont·inuo lor

Mr. Brassington.]

S78 Art Umon 1-legul,ztion fl,:l!. [ASSEMBLY.] A•l Cnion Reyulat~c.n B~ll•

SL\~eral Wf'z ks, and duri::.1g that time it repre­sent,'d nothing better than ~hop bettinJ·· Shop bettiug IS supposl'd tu be illegal; but hon. member~ opposit'c stand for the C-tJll­

tUluation of thj.3 pract.ice throughout the city. I rai ,e the Inattcr for this rca:-un : The Attorn· y-Gec,ural hus sai(l fro1n rirnc to tinll' that· the L.abour IDOY· r.cr.t ha·. nn right to rai~ ~ fu·Jds b)~ cr:nducting art uliions, {~tc. \Yba~eYe~· fur. 1s arc rai~ed br tht~ l_..,_~bour Part-...7 in thi::; eonne·:t)on are lltiE "'d in the in teres's of the people; but in thi: pm·ticular caso the funds obtaiHed by the individuab c:.r:'err\\d arn u~ed for the private gain of thosP icJdi,·idunlc, and do not benefit the people directly.

The Attoi-nl'y-Gener .. -.J might explain how i;· happens that a permit can be granted for this nbbit competition, especially seeing that it is a distinct infringexneut of the lTgu]a­tions undc1' '· hiC'h such perrnit '· a,re :;,ranted. and that pl'nnlts are refused for -workers' eJucational purposes.

The A'r-ron~n-GE"ERAL: J'\o permit was granted. 'l'hoy wont on without a pnrmit. The competition \\ ;ts stopped immediately it ·was started.

Mr. Por,LOCE: ·why didn't you g~ol the hon. member for Rosewood?

Mr. BRASSI:\GTON: I approach the subject from the viewpoint th<et thc•e people had a permit; if they had 110 permit l want to know why the Attorney·General pol'mitted them to cany on the competition so long?

The ATTOR:.iEY·GEXERAL: How long did thc:.7 carry on for?

Mr. BRASSI.:\GTO~: I have been going into a <.;erta.in shop for a nu1nber oi ·weeks, and l htwe read the poster in the shop windoYv every 'seek. That shows that favours aro granted ~o friends aucl supporters of the Government. It also shov, s that the Go­vernment ilave one la\V to e1forco against the Labour movement, and >tnother law for their o1vn supporters. In this va,rticuldr case a conc'('Ssion IYas gr<::,ntcd to the rabbiters, whilst the Labour n1overncnt 1vas dealt ·what is kno\\11 as a '"rabbi;., punch ;'--a very questionable blow, indeed.

This Bill cmpo\\ers the Govennnent to in1pose special tees for tho cond:wt of art un1ons, lotteries, rallies, antl so forth. Tl1e position of the Government is certainly des· perote when it is forced into the position of exploring ovcry a venue of taxation and tax­ing every pcr1ny of incorne that is ea.rned. I object to the principle of taxing ho .pitals, arubularwe.:., siek people, and people \d10 are unfortunate tmd clown on their luck. The Govcrnme.nt stand up dishonoured as being a Governnwnt which resorts to the question­able practice of taxing Jll'Ople \\ho are badly iu need of as:-5is: ancP,

::Vlr. BL.\CKLEY: \Yore yon not taxing them throuc:h the ··Golden c-. .,ket "?

:'vir. BRASSI:\'GTO:'.J: I am pleRccd to notice that, de· pitc what the Trc-lsur'-'r has said in thi;.:; I-lou,.j for n1any Ycart:l a~"'·ainst the " Goldl'n Cnd):ct, '' he and his supp'Orters s)nco their to poY .. er have carried oll the '·Golden " I predict thr·t th<'y have no of aboiishing it.

The Attorney-General .. tated that neithe, .. Austr~Jian Labour Parties nor anv othe1· branch of th<> Labo1tr mov('Jnc:nt \V~uld be granted perrnission to rais~ funds under the variom methods set out in this Bill. The Labour rnoYC'nient to-da:.r is dependent finan-

[.ilfr. Bmssington.

cially u11 the subscriptions of unionists. The Labour rnovoment will find itself hard put to cany on \\ ithout the financial support n'tf'i\·rd iu thi~ direction in the past. Not '0 with holl. members oppC'Jit". They have 1 he undivided supper~. of big Lmsiness iut·cr: thl'oug-hout the State, and plenty of ruon('y ,·]]! he forthcoming from those int"re:t~ io fig·ht every election with. I '11' m ion t h t to illustrate the me· an political adv·' ntag-e "'\\hi eh the Govcrnrnent are taking of their opponrnts bv denying then1 a righG to 1·.hich tlll'Y arc ju~tly entitled.

:\Ir. EUV't'A::_:n:..: Y~ou are p:etting 1110re vin­dicti\C' CYCI"y clay.

:\fr. BHASSI::'\GTOX: I intend to be so uutil the Uov0rnrnent are ron1ovcd from oilit·e. \\hich will not b,· long.

The mo> t 2crious aspect of this Bill is the un liu1jtcd power conferred on the :Nlinister who is to dc·cicle who shall and who shall not bo giYcn permits. I object to that principle L·causo I belieyc that power should not be given to any :iYfiaicter at all.

[5.30 p.m.] This Bill ohould htc' down definitely the

cla .,oc .. of IPmcs for which permits will be o·n~Htcd and the circun1stances under which ;he<~ IJtdnits c.c;ill be iFoncd. To substantiate th1~; ar~_urncut I raise a very jmportant point, . ne! I 1vaut hon. members to understand that I clo nu: do so with the intention of making a;1~~ unfair suggestion. I r,'fE'r to the opera­tio~ns of "fruit rnachint~-," in this city for ~;01111: lnonths. The Attorney-Grmeral on sc-ycraJ occusions has informed this House tl1at the department considers these machines to be ill1•gal. My point is thic: As the cl~;partnwnt betel reached a decision to that r·fh·ct, \vhy .n•re thec0 machines allowed to ope:;_·a~:: for r•o lon[ ~ I have had some CXJL'l'iencc of thcsC' nlachit ... ee-; indoed, I undertook a practical demonstration one uighl when I inserted tweivo di ·CS into a '· fruit 1:nachine "-tho discs aro , inserted, "'"!. if "UU arc lucky. you draw a prize­but I was J,Jt ouccessful in obtaining a prize. I m told th.1t the odds against a person dra \vin0 a prize in that type of nutchine are t',' cnt , -five to one. Furthur, I \Yas inforn1ed Olo good authority by a man conducting a. hotul that, whilst those "fruit machines" we re irc'itallocl in the hotel. the takings increased by 40 per cei1t. Seeing that tha.t. is the positiou, it is up to the Government to gin~ 11'"· an explanation as to \Vhy those •'fruit rn 1.:chincs" were pel~mitted to run so long.

Tbc ..-\TTORNEY-GENTRAL: IIo\v long?

Mr. Bll.A S;::,I:\GTOX: For months. The hon. gPntlcman 1aised the point that he took tinE' to inyestig[.,tc whether those n'lachines \IT L'P fai1· or not t0 the general publjc.

'r}w ATTORXEY·lXENERAL: Don't y011 think L}ut {::; l'Ollln1011 SCD"C?

:Jlr. BHASSIXGTOX: I am of the opinion r'L. t officpr of the Department of Justice or of i'oiice Department could have t ,t,,d tho ' machines in twenty-four hours

decidrd that thev were not in the best ; of t.he pu"tilic. The Gorcrnment explain wh:, ihe Crov;:n Law I)epart­

ment :1llowed those 1nachinr"J to be continued so long and then suddenly r:oke up to fact tlmt the:;· should be stopped when

--,~1. nwrnber,,, Oll this side of the House "'"' ,ed the quntion. Had the question not ber 1 :ntist'd by eoTtain hon. mon1bcr3, it was t l-e int~nhon, I was told by a person con, ducting ~otnu of those machines, that they

ATt Union Regulation Bill. [10 SEPTEMBEl~ ~ A_rt l.-rv'i.Orl l.'eu·uiot·ion !;1"1.'. S79

\·:1ould be in operation over the Exhibition nflriod fur the berw':it. no doubt, of country vrortors, "·\ ho \\ ould have been induced to spend their hard-carnQd n1oncy' at those tnnchincs.

Another point is that those machines were allo'' <·d to b" conduct0d by certam persons, whilst I know of people in· the hotel bu,,;nes,, who '' anted to in:::tal these nlachinPs and. wen-' prPYentcd frotn doing so. All the~e ft- a tu res suggest to us that it is absolutely nL'C< c sary that this Bill should definitely prc­"'-'ibe cc list of the games in respect of which pe-rmit' will be grant< J and also to \vhorn lJl'nnits arc to be granted. I prote,.t against n ''-Iinister having cornph to po-.,yer tu differentiate bctv1veen certain games and certain pcr':on::;. It is only fair aHcl rea~·Jn­able in ibo inten :t~, not only of ilh! pubEe gcnorall=.· but of the people who .. _.re running dwso games and of the Government of the State, that tlw Act :;hould bo P-landator,; in this matter. and that deflnito provisions should be stipulated.

:\lr. STOPFORD (Jiount Jloryan): Those w~·o have b,~tcrwd to th8 debate Gln arriYe at no other conclL<sion than that the Attorney­General is totally unfit to be given such llO',-·'er as he is ask:ing under this Bill, -.pecialh· vchcn we consider his attitude

toward::; c 'rtnin (~·.tahljshod institutions that h.;.vo exi:~tPd in Queensland even under the old Tor:.· dicb_ud consorvative GoYornments.

\Yo have the spectacle of a pormit being rf'fusecl t.o an art union that has been in 0xistonc0 for thirty years, run b:: a bod/ that has been reco-;ni sod as a body free from ; >Ol itical thought-a body that has been given a froo grant of land on v.hich to build a hall bY a Governmcmt not Labour in any

av-bc.·au,:e thov beli<vecl that, if thev coUld houso the' work:er;; together in a com~­mon meeting-place, they would have a better {'hance of deft'\ating any oxtrcrne elen1ont and arriving· at conclusions which would be of bcne;it to the State. The Attornev­{~enural, ·with the power contained in th1s Rill. has die;Jcose:;secl the<e men of a right t'1ey h.1<l. and the oul_y explar:ation he has to offpr is that he considers they are a political body. The ~\ttorncy-Gerwrd ;as very badly informed if ho thin\ s the Trad0s and Labour Council or tho bodies that meet at the TradPs Hall arc supporters of the Lnbour Party. A fair pcreentoge of thorn may be; bu< them <ll'O rnanv unionists in this State who are in no \\ay" affected with politics, and many unioni_~ts who do not a'.,'30<'i'""'tc wlth t~1:: rccognis.ed Labour movcn1eni ':'.

To-day we find the came people who would not grant a continuation of the practice 1vhich has been rOC'O'!lliscd bv C\ ,;r- GoYcrn­mcnt. no matter of • .. hat sli'adc of politic.: l thought they may be, "ppoaling to the head of the Emnlovers' Federatio-n of ::'\orth Que:mslancl as "to whether thev would rive a permit for an nrt nnion to the ambulance brip~a.de. Ca:1 anyone ~<ly that the .. A._ttc.rucy­Goncral, aftnr thC" : h;,-o nction~. is a flt and propPr person to be givc'n control in ronnce­tion with '~Rlncs of chancP V.'hich in the past hrrYc been under the control of the police? Fune the hon. gf'ntlernnn exru;;;ir,g h-is atti­tude towa1·d:::, the 1~1zht-hour l)nicn~ here- and_ lJaYlng a communic Jtion vjth thP Employer;-' }:j1ederation of l'Jort.h Queensland before he would allo";; an art union to be held in Tow'11Svillc by thG ambulance brigade :

The ATTOilKEY-GEKERAI,: Don't take his word. Here are the papNs.

IIr. STOPFOL{D: lf the hon. 12'"ntleman can show th. t a !PttPr igned by Mr. Carter, his Lnclcr Secretary, is a forgery, t.hen ho eau dispute our '1sc. All we ha.-c to work on is this fact~that au ofiicial communica­tion signed IJ:v the Und~e Secretary of the Department of ,Jus Lice ,,-as sr-nt to the ambul­'mcr brigade telling them that. under an agrcerriPnt 1.virh the Emplo~ ers' Federation, it was not po"'ible to grant thorn an art unjon in the n)onth of Dcccn1ber. One has on]y to wJ..lk round Brisbane and round the ho1i. g0ntlon1an's o\vn electorate acros~ the brid~e to sec> what is taking place. When "\Y0 vyert' in charge of the Gov-crrnnent. hon. mcmbc ·s oppositE' said that we should stop all the,,o form< of gambling; but ever since the" have been in office a "liberty fair" has~ been running acres~ the river, ''"here they- play every game of chance known. I ha ye soon " :;;et rich quick" played there. rrlw hon. gcntlelnan say') that certain ordin­ances under the Greater Brisbane ~4.ct pre­v-ent hi1n fron1 interfering; but there is nothing in this Bill dealing with games of chnuce that I am talking about,

The hon. member for Enoggera told the Attorney-General to-d.1y that a game which \Yas pcnnittcd in Brisbane w~s prohibited in Gympie hPcause the police, who had sole control uf thc,·e games under the Government, rf'gardcd it in G:.Tnpio as a game of chance. ~rhis genile-rnan cam(~ to sec me, and rnade all sorts of wild chcrgos about "graft" amongst the police, and said that he was not allo C'd to ccnr. on his game because he wonlcl not pay. I treated him with the con· t<"' vt that his st;'tcmcnt deserved. I told him thnt I \YaS not the judge as to what w ,s a game of ch,mcc-that the police had to dccid(' that---~nd that if the garnf' were cllowcd either in Rockhampton or Towns­Yille it hetd nothing to do vvith rn('. There is eo ordinance framed under "The City of Brisbane Act of 1924" which can override an Act pv.:"~cd by this Tim_1sc. Th:,lt Act, "\vhich I pa,sed throngh thi.::; Charnb·~r, contained a provi,;ion that uothing contained in the m·din­<HlU'.s of the council should override an _t\ct of ParliaE1cnt; vet we have the Attornev· General co!ning ·in "·ith a rnoc:,,~uro of th'is clc~cription, under \Yhith h- takf's powor to raise funds b~· rnt'nns of uTt. unions. raffics. and oHwr appl'on::-d mcnr .,, w.hich means any­thing und('r th0 snn. lie hrrs not realised v;hat tlw effect of the a rncnrlmcnt would b2 and the tnubic he is making. He has a cer­tain nrnount of conrarre in doin"' thi;,, but ,,-it 1Jin t"\ve]vc montbs he ,.,, ill firld .1 great difficulty in administ0ring this measure. I orn talking: from experience. I never had thaJ 'lJower, and I defy any policeman in the State 1o sav that I ever asked him to inter­fcrt' in Rll)~ '\·ny, b0yond do5n.e: his duty, in conne ·tion \Yith any games of cha.nco that mi:. ht be o;wra1ing in any of the "Libert,7 Fairs " in this .8tat0. In the old days thf) Attorn0~·-G~ncra 1 g-a vo permits for art llnions and rn:ffic..;:. but nothing more. I am not go1ng to sny that games of chance \~tere w1t played. They were played. but the nolice i< ,,;., the rr,nonsihility of that, and not the :Jiilli'-tf'r. rrht: po}ice Wf:rC rCS)JOllSib}P, and if the:· wcr0 not faithfnl to that responsi­hilitv thov faikd in their dntv, I had occa­sion. to dr·1.~.~7 the attention Of th8 Con1mis­sioner of Police to the fact that illegal games 'n ''" being pla,·cd; and the Commissioner had t~ocn to take the responsibility of seeing i hat tho:,r rra1ncs ;yerA stopped. Now thB hon. gentlcmun is going to legalise tho:J{>

31r. Stop ford.]

880 Art Union Rr]ulation Bill. [ASSE:MBLY.] Art Union Regulation Bill.

garncJ, Lccnuse he is bringing in a Bill merply to cieal with art unions and roffieo. How can he keep check of these thin,Q's? The other 11ight I \VC'nt over to \Voolloongabba and played " ifousey-Housey" and ,. GPt Hich Quick." In fact, I pla "'Cd every game.

TlH"' ATIOIL'>IEY-G:::-:-;:ERAL: \_ ou rnust not for 4

get tha'- I arn 110t adn1inistcrjng it yet.

~h. STOP FORD: Any Minister who takes the po>~·cr sought under this Bill is looking for troublo; and although, like C:-,c.sa,r'G -wife, he may L~ above suspic1on, ho \vill get accu­::3at.1ons t.hr(nrn agai11st him. The proper authorit,.. to ndn1inister this busint!,,S is tho polic", o_nd -ve ohould lrt them take the responsibility. IIon. n1en1bers opposite raise their· Yoicc~ again.- b tho scandals in connec­tion with g-ambling, yet to-daJ they are legal­ising tho ,,,ont forn1 of 5-a1nbling-a form of gan1bling which is specially alluring to youngsters. \Y o qui to realise that certain policl~HH?n nw~ be blind to certain occur­rences, but 1/0 never gave them Governrnent approval, \.hi eh is what the hon. gentleman is doing.

The hon. member for Enoggera referred t.o tho nHtnagor of a chocolate factory in South .. ·" ustrn.lia \\·ho, at a titnc 1vhen we "'''"t mo!h'Y to r,-o into industry, threw up his job, at v.hich ho was serving a. useful purpose, and toured Auc"trdict carrying on a Lalloon garno and 1naking £2.500 per annuuL I-Ie operated in Quce1:sland, no doubt. I n1ct hin1. The Corrln1issionEn· of l'olicc met him, and told him that the game "ould not Lr- allo•., ed here. Ho was stopped at Gyrupic, and thr_ hon. n1crnber fol' Enog­gent told us this afternoon that he should h1\·o been ullo~-\ od to go on, and that, if this measure is pa _J ~:~cl, so far as tht~ hon. rnclnbcr for Enoggera i~ concerned, he is ~oiug to see that he get:3 hjs rights <?.'3 a citizen and is allowed to plr1y that game. I admit that some uniform method should bo adopted. I du not think it is right tlmt at tho :\ ational Show j:n Brisbane gan1t~s such a" chocolate wb-. eis should be allowed to Le played. and that, when the showman shifts to Toowoomba, ho it prc\.·entcd frorn operating there because the policeman there <:Iiffer'- from his fellow in Dri.,,Lano. Action should be taken to lay down some uniform, standard instructions to the poLco. It is very difficult to do; but prior to the ach·ont of this Government it was clone bocftusc we had not the JJepart­ntcnt of .] ustlco and tho I-IOJ·ne Departn1ent in c:)nflict in the administration of tho Iu·,,.

The Attorncy-Gcncral has ample power under the Criminal CoJo to deal with anv­thing in iho nature of a garnc of chance, a~d 1 submit that tlw proper authority to dotcr-tuiuc \Yhat is of ch<UlC'! }s the })olice Departn;,·nt. head ofiice he, e should dct-:nuine what con1cs \\ ithin thl~ d•iii~ltion of a game of skill; and tbat dcci >ion chould opE'ratu rjght throughout tho t)tate and the l\linistcr i:j buying a lot o_;_ trouble taking IAJlio hin1·elf the ri_)1t to \Vho shall pluy this oe that garne uEd shall not play it. H there n1·e no m a gaml', "h: not .dlow c·:crybody l'o play it'! lf thNL' arc o ·ils in the playing of tho game, ,;hy JJOt exl-, rrninato it'! Gan1( -, of chance Rhouicl not be tolerated unlcos for purely charitable pm-pm''· If ;.e lay it down ddiniLdy th.t they may be pla.ved for purely charitable purpose,·., -v,c 1nay grant pern1its 1o conduct h .rmloss garner, for that purpose; bul, \Vbr:n you alloY\t the own or of a game

[Mr. S!o{J[ord.

ue of " permit by the aml allow that clement of to crenp into the c·y .• tern, you

to something that will Lo dic~..:t--tno Lu·~roaching for to controL

Th ATTORREY-GEXERAL: How do you pro­po,oo to do it'

STOPFORD: I have been thoro. The should L1c the authol"it''· The Govcrn­

ncnt do not cay that evcrv.body should be ~1 onp 1 from pln:.,iug gamr s of chance, but in the brief period dnring which thc.v ha~.-e OPen i~l po\vcr the---~ have refused

to the Trades and Labour Council, it is politic.tl; rend they ha Ye bum to b r' tho Emi1loYcrs' Federation as

to g1 nnti!-1g of a per~ it for an art union [H'OlJOoed to Le held b) thG ambulance brigade ·in Town viilu. which has been held :tnnually be· them for 3 cars past.

The ATTCRXEY-GENERAL: That is a deliber­ate Inis;:;tatcnlcllt on your part.

7.,Ir. STOPFOHD: If the hon. gentleman sa V6 tlLLt the statcrnent is not correct, the caJ~ic-.t 1\'a~ fot 1nP to reply is that I a1n ·w;ng on " letter read by the hou. member tor ·_rownsvil! \vho is -a men1ber of the n1nbul8.n-re cxccutiYc. He road

ono of y:hich \vas 'vriitcn by U nrler Se~retar in reply

to a reqne t to gi re thcn1 a pei:·rnit for an art lHl!On. I saw the letter before it \vent to " llnn·ard."

The ATTORNEY-GBK!:llAL' It was the result of repiYS~'u: 'ltiOL'-· by ~tol'ckce11('rs ~:nd caJe ptOj_)r~ct,__rs.

i;Ir. STOPFOH.D: The hon. member for rfOWihYiJle ~~10\.VCd the letter to me, and fC'aJ it, and it will appear in "£Iansard." The bon. member c!clmitelv stated that an agree­mcmt had been entel·ed into between the department and the Employers' Federation that no ncrmit '"'as to be issued in the month of JJece;nber. I have no desire to l.cLour this quc,tion. The Government are hard­pressed indeed hen they ha;-c to resort to this method of raising a few " bob " to tide them over the present period. If gamb­ling is to exist, then why do the Govern~ tnent noJ· lr>gaEse it and make it part of their policy 1 It is ;vrong for them to takn pmnr to let loose upon the commumty any ndventurcr ho !nay con1e along wiih a political guarantee from another State to go through the country '" lth aJl sorts of

ernes of cha1<c>-'. I an1 sure that hoa. men1-0jlJ1vSitc will Garn a r- buke from their

. upp0ctcr outside this Home £or introduc­ing this Bill.

Mr. BAR BEE (B'tnd'tberg): I bavo road th1s l3iU Yery carefully, and it appears to :me to be on a nar \vith tJ1e other rnc:1·-urPs introduced bv tfw Attornev-General thic; se'­

is ,}either fish, fl( <h, nor go0d red Eiihc'r a. thing j right Ol' it is

the prote.<tations of the Dnd the mem!Jf'rs of the t.'lCv desire to aboli_ch :·he

in thi; State, I do not think ls !foing to a.-::complish any good.

fir.-t thing I ha\·c to ask myself is: "\YL 1t ~s gambling?" I think you wi1l

::\Ir. SpC'akcr, that when a general is held. thcrP is a largo element

of gambling about that-whether Barber gets in or Bro ·.n gets in. I think, l\1r. Sp: akcr, you will agree that thoro is a large

Art Union R 'fuhtic.rL B,'/i, [10 SEPTEMBER.] Art Unio," Rc•;u[,,t:on Bill. 881

eh~1ncnt of ga~Lling \vhen the i ~.rson pa:r' h1s shilling to sP:' the tattooed 1 /0ma~l 1n the t a_;:_, the ~how. That is less

b"r::w" · the fellow m rcr ·,xilJ s~:c lT!.Orc tat-th;uJ t.hC' fe1lo1v j·u~t

1 • the

a.rt• a thou: rtnrl and one trungs that seun to bo more or lc~s a g,-mblc.

Th8 question of r':Yc:luc haY cropp cl up in this matkr: but ;t is comin::· clm'.·n to ;' vep~ lo1v leYcl when the T\·easurC'r finas hinise1f ~o H etonv-broko " that ho has to rclv upon the aclditional fees received in resPt ~t- of r,_,gistratiC'ns or permits grar:tecl by the Attorney-General to '•oable art unwns to be conducted. I can rnako a very hnp;Jy suggestion to the Attore8y-Gcneral v;hc;:cbv the reyc-;mno of the SL:DB can be increased and th-j Treasurer assisted to a greater extent. What would be wrong ·with commercialising a life-sized statue of the Attorney General himself? EFer since he has entered this House he has been considered a person who uses irresnonsible langun =:"C in a lutppy, rol­lickinr: ~arc-free way. and particuhrly is that se: in connection with this Bill. I would suggest. and I s0,:-- gTCd_t poF<,-;ib:Jit.ic~ in tl?e idea tha.t the Government should obtam t.he ~t ~·vices of an en1incnt sculptot--fay, Sir Brxtnnn '\Inrkenna1-to mflku a life-sized statue of the hon. genileman in the character­istic, irrP'-'ponsiblo mood that -\vo ee_ hirn in in this Chamber. Tlnt shtuc rmght be affixed to u pedc··tal and placed at Cape Moreton.

The :O.T'lO:.\ KER: Order! to do with the Bill.

This has noth1ng

-~Vfr. D \I:BEl-1: It ~"' n TYJ1-;1i nld t1~(' c( :c·rnrnC'nL fina~Jf'ial dif!if'uitles. T},.

~-.r(-·c:;p:;:ti!n y;hid1 to OVC'l'"Ol11C t'heir

~ t'Lorn,. .,_ .. -G 0neral :in h-;-; ch-n:c­rnc 1i·1g- ··lH!

"1...-oung

can be> d 1. b:

teri:- · ic n ir:r;

ci:1g· the I "'n . ,,.c i h~t rho r•-c.b], ~" of tlw

'l1 r •n.~lP'f''' 1 ill b(' lan:;<'l""· c•.-c'·{ nv-:·-!(' )f this is dopt• d ... (:_nd Lt!nj~Jt" 1 1'0 l~upli-

a 1-i,

b•.· thf' la tio•1

~tatue so!'l h:v th0 Go\-f'l'l11nent.

of \Yhrthf'.. 'n1bl;1~::_-.. s1Iotdd ( r r:ot s hnu~d tak'"'n out of

0f thr pnlieP Our lP<;i;.;-sl!t ·dd Ycrv ,..-.lN1rh .. lav

d to bo :1v Si:->rions I'·, ('f O~lr

In .} un(' \a 1- I had co-:-1 dc-,nnr:tory

rn·1ni 1[{ a that they

st:1t· 1nrnts. , l'C net

side-show !1('rn1;ttinp;

' thnt i he f\11> of pennis-sidc- :hoY\ <.1!1onlrl not b·~ ll·ft

tho nolicc br< nt all. ·r of .:pcrrin :_ol-rinlitt'-"·Y;

d th r sports rP i-··.ucd. nn

wou1<1 be alLnvprl [l.t t~'" ~nm+-:. I cn1nc on tc: Bri.)banP, anJ, nf-lrr co<l·-~c:l'r-1blc cor:"flSllO''d0JlCO n'ld prnt0~r..:: tt ')"'~~ inst 111C' art1on o£ t11" Go--;rornment -~-for b,.-.,tting- at ~PO''t' mPi ting-" h ts b0'Jn a Pf'V'<'d fC'r a Ltn:nbf'r of vcars-~ I int ~rvicnvc~d th0 Tr:':1· ~lr."r. Tn ~~1rJny C:lse;;:; ·"portirr.· bodir:s lwd forrrJuJab:"d th::>jr progrnmrrws 011 the as~Hmptif'~1 .._r1~•t hc,tting- \v0uld b~ ;,llowr·;l. Hnd w<~rn in thi, \\'a v fl blr.c ro ofr'.---..r splendid crc;;h prizt'e in the belief that they would

1930--3 I

~'C'C'OUp th· n1 lvc,:;; f1 ;:rn tlw bnokm.1

d t'lc fees obtained l wait.Pd or.. the

~1 111e that he was at su<:h meeting·

other pwp~sal s of cl1ar:H ·-·1. keel hi1n not to

to operate tlti cil Jst July. enabled not only the

L -, bm1r ~no~·ts connnittce but other sportin!.! bo.dlc s" to' run their programmes. The Trc<-:~urcr told 1nP that, so far

"' lw was concerned-and I [7 p.m.] >tclmired the attitude he adopted

-ht• ccnld not <1greo to it. but that thQ lnttHcr wou1cl bo dealt with by Cabi~:e~ \v-ithin the next ,{ay or two. A \Y(':k or t~ n d~ -s ;:;ftcr\v::trds a telegram

jn a Bund.::tb,:rg n '"·spaper to the that thn embaq·o had bcee1 lifted, and the secretary f;f the Dallarnil sports

corn1nitt -n hnd received a telegram f:~onl th(~ rncrnbcr for Burrun1 saying that things , nulc1 b:' allo,ved to continue as they had fo~· .;;orr , car:3. That permission w~s e:ith~r ric;ht or ' ; 11ncl. if the Cabrn~t did t 1 ,oir dutv nc;t]v to the commumty, I v:ould ~t iH_1 h> the Trc2.surcr a!ld say,," St'?P i~ [1Ln.r0ther. n11d not leave It to tne dis­crr1ion Gf thl• lHini:--tcr." I cons_u1ted ~ l\Ii,1ic:-t(~r, a11d ~10 told rno thn.t· Cab1nct. had dr·cidcd that b--t". :ng \Yas to be permitted · nkss ~ ttentlou 1~.:as called to it.

The T"r~ • '-T_T\1 R: I \vas not the :11inistcr \rho V'a~~ cnr. ulL"-l.

~:·1·. I.: \PBEJl: I havt~ alrC"~tdy give"'"! tho lt m·_n cru1~t for shtEding pat on

der·id"rl to do; hnt the hon. gentle-" Of o, if Cabind decides

;,,,, I by the 'er·dict of the '' if; ....-j,.;,~n to ~tHe','

at: sn-ortin 7 meetings, shou]d. be generaL It

ci-rt:~1nl, shonid JJ-,t b_~ n.JlowPd for o;w ) ... F:lr1

rl-1 ro-,tiLtt' d t~w next Y'~ar, arod l8VIYCd tho f .lkwing yc-rn·.

DiU.

A ttorno, -General ehould pm­of tliat char~ctcr in this

sboulcl tnke the sta.ncl tha~ per­to 1 nt at the cc enmts c,ho'llll bo

l r>- .rr<-nrr<:ll or /ot nt a11. rl,his m~r;{lit .. v palh on the co"l'!'unity Smnc ho-:-1. nlf'tn bers opposite { •...:t

p]atforn1 .and tn!k ·1}Jout the a\-,'fnl thrt 1s bC'ing ex:f'rCiscd by garn!1~

linr:: liU' I th:nk, :\!r. SrcakN, you 'Y_Ill w··rcc -:ith that in mo t puts of !no

of all legisL.ttio:L gamblmg on to -orne extent. I re­

IncrnhPr so1nc Eoul't·-rm yf'nrs n'TO I made a tJ;P thronv,h t.tO t_;pncr Burnctt. nnd I ca_1ne acro5s 1. l0d:,· of r:-:.:·n one Rurda:~ morn1nt--r 1,-vho hnd a \"cry ~Inn pony and sulky turnout. 'j'hcY clrovc a 1j;-i'1ch stc 1 bolt i'l ihc post of thr ·'heel of t.ho hotel. took off ono of the allky wheels and hurc- it on the bolt. t·hen put up nnnll·.,~rs and s1:un the wheel round at a "bob " a. t1inc. (L:tlE{ht~r.) So, \Yhatcvr:-:· lC'r"1dution \VC pDss. the cro;vd will have their little ga.n1bling in one fonn or ,:-·Pother.

A GOHRNj;E:'T ME~\lllER: Did you join in'!

Tlh. BARn ··:R: I nndidly admit t~nt I h~d mv " bob" on ii·, the same as I drd at fon1P of the f;de-shovls whjch were allo\vcd to

,,,, the Brisbane Exhibition. As 11ointe~~ ant b:v hon. ID'"":mbers,

g-n.,11~b1ing of n rnost ininuitou: char,:tctcr -.,\'a~ allowed cat th0 l:•et Brisbane sho•·c. I ha•l a " bob " or two on, and won a largo box

Mr. Barber . .]

Art L'rion R yu\otion Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Ad [ ,, on Regulaho.' Pif/.

of cho..;olat('S. ;lL. l I rt;cr:ivcd ihe applause of 111v fan1ih· ·-,dv..:n 1 nrti \·cd ho1no with the l)o:~ ~of ch{);·o1alo, {Laught _r.) Crunbling 1., right or it is ,.:;·ong.

i wi:·~h to refer llO'iY to that }JaN alrc;_uh· lJeen

::_r< J in tht' . CUl'lC:'IJt

out

!111 advertisement rnentloned <vlnch

,s :stating that connection vvitb

tlln t is arnh · lint;, and it ::cc.r;..: the n1n1'"1 1"ll0

huys t!lC nw.-,~ 1no-t tickc:!ts llld cUll cL the uf winning the prize. 1 notice tLe lwn. n1en1bL)r for Hcs ·­" ood is looking at me, 1nd I Y\ou!d like to a-·l: ,-drcthcT he :4·ot. pennis:::1on in that i11stance. AJ h·ay.;_; ·vdH'H l look at the horl. L<ernber, ·with hi-~ aug·r,lic ~Jnlle, I think oi tl1at charr.liug po~·ru-

" Bve, Baby Bunting 1

D -~ddy's gone a-hunting 'ro get a rabbit skin To ,,-rap up Baby Bunting in."

ha,·c had occasion to bring a few matter,, under tho notice of the Attorney-General. At tho recent Bunda.:)erg sho1v, in common with otLer Ehovrs, a lot of concerns were run that wc,te simply "rooking'' the public-to put 1t a;; gently as possible. Two ;\'ew Zealand gentlerrH!ll were running sho\YS. I say ·· gcntlcrncn," because tbo .articles thov werP disposing of 'vcre, in 1ny opinion, u worth "very cent they wei'e charging for them. One of thorn "as selling a too_! very much usnd in the c..tnecutt.ing districts-a special file for shat'pcning cane knives. I think the other man was selling thho files at 2s. 6d. each. I can assure hon. member,; that, from rn: exa1nination of thP f-iles. they wen' \Yorlh all that the men demanded for them. One of the men was running a chair in which people could get weighed. I was approached by these men to introduce them a,< a deputation to the ~'.ttorney-Goneral. to \thorn I subrnittcd certain rLconllnenclatiOns. I think that the hall. gentleman ha;; to sornc extent covered the rcque'l;ts rnade in dame 16 of the Bill, but I do not think he h<ts donll all that we want. ln order to ]Jrotect the pub] ic it should he necessarv before a side, ,how is allowed to operate a:t a fair that tho><' concerned should submit the principles of their games to the Attornev­C:enoral or one of his staff. The,,o men informed me that before am·ono is allowed to start a side-,show in New South ·wales he hns to giYe a dcrnonstratiOll of the u·arrlt' which he purpo'''-'S pla::ing ~ and, if'' th<' official of the department is sati,,fied that i:- is a '• ~traight go," he has to pay a fc-: ot P bout £2 2s,, and he is then a'llowed to 'y.'l tP, But side b:· side' in a public place he .r~lll~'t firs~ cxhib1t in large t"vp,' the c ·1·t1fv'lte wlnch he has rc~PiYcd frorn tlw d(•]Hnt.ntcnt for pPnni·,.. ,ion to play, and <1loug::-Hlc of that Lnlst al o be f'Xllibited in !arg·p t~·pc: a l ,)py of tlw rnlcs of the ganH',

1 that ihc puLlic or any polieP officer on dnt:.~. IYill be' able to see if the 8how is being l'Uil lll HC(Ol'dallCO wlth tb~ rule:~. rrhc.;O IDC'.i

farther said that, as ho~1e·~t ll'~;dtiJnate sho\Y-thc:7 thought an,;· lllan who~ like them­

-\ .. s pluyjug- a straight: and fair gaH!P

. ~t!pp1ying to the comn1nnit.Y an article for t110 full Ynlue for the price dc·rnttndcd wou1c1 b preror rl io pa,, a fee of £5 5s. to thu Dcpartrncnt of J usticc o:~ th'~ Trt.1 asurer for pennits to run t 1rc garncs or sell the articl( '). r.rheir suggestion Vi.'Ould provid much n1 Jro ITVf'nn0 to tho Treasurer than '' '''ems to rno hP is likc! v to obtain under 1 ilis Dill '" it stanck l, do not think the

[Jir. Barim'.

AttonH'~·-GeneraL when 1'pf..1king on the ~Pcood n actin';, rn·~·ntioned -~ hLth:.•r he had

iilat id1 ,, in the Bill. I am if what I ha vc indic<1ted numLrr of these

would hi, wip< d hJ t!h' L~' t

cuc:n1unit'·, and ho;:u'-.;t ' able to ~·t a 11!' ,_·1: lJcttPt' re< llrn £or and di"jl")· .' o[ a 1arg·:r quuutity of his \Vl.res.

l ,' ll]lJlO' c that v;hat the Attornev-Generai h··-; inrorpnratcd in this Bill .is tile recorn~ mcndation :,f the Cabinet that tho Australian L:dJour Pan y and other Labour bodies are nut to h. 'llo-.,reJ tu obtain pPnnit.:t to run art unions. Tn -con11retion with thu Trades <1iH1 L··.b-:;nr 'Lor.ncil in Buudd:;;rg there is ft Y~ r.v ~~Jocl library~ ('Ollt.: ining ;~ large num­b r of houkJ 011 SL'ic~ntifl(', hi·! orical, and literary subjects. whirh ·arc purely educa-1 innal. a1od, in 1ny opinion, it would be far l1cttcr for the CO!l1l11Uniiy if our people ,;tudic>d the> questiotJs with witich thc;;c books deal. I thillk that in cases like that, where Labour bodif•s or anv other bodieS desire to bnild up librarics-:_which is a vcrv fine thing for any community-the Attorney­GenPral ghonld grant permits for art unions. 1 he object bt>ing to rai~e .tnoney to purchase literature of the das, to '.dtich I have n•fcrrecl.

I hope that in Committee the Opposition will be able to show the Attornev-Gerwral thE' absolute necessity for granting· permits in aid of librarips and things of that kind.

Mr. MAIIER (llosrn'ood): Duri11g the cour"' of the dc·batc this aftPrnoon I under· stand that. y~;hi!:st I was absent from the Chamber, the hon. member for Balormo made certain staternf'nt:-:; alleging. fir~t. that my firm, ;\fc··"·s. WilkiHoon and Mahor o£ Yelar­l,on, had conducted a competition in the• saie of their products; and, secondly. that '"Y firm had applied to the Attorney-General for a pcrrrrit to couduct :-;uclt lotterv or conl­pdition. I wish to say most definitely in 1 his House that neither the firm with which 1 am a•·,ociated noJ· mysc•lf personally has condt~eted anv computition in the sale of rrrbbits in this city: and. s!'condly, I did not apply to the Attorney-General fo'' permission 10 retail our goods jn this n1anncr. \\"c sell our rctbbiis to whole< a le- cl ea lb ,, or distri­butor~ in the clty, and they pay us cash for dH• n:ouds we f;f'1L \Yhai 1lwc· do after the:," go Lout of our po~:;c•··· inn i:"- i1o concern cf rnine or of mv firn1. :;\I or .:0Y0T, neither :my fHin nor my.,e.Jf contribut::'d one penny of the prize l>loncy allotted for that competition.

An OPPOf!TfOX ME}IBER: \Yho said yoa cl id?

:'.1r. JHAHEE: ThP hon. me ,nber for B:' lonnc. I can only add tlwt politic.·, hn ., JT 1cbed a Ycry Jo\\~ ebb, and i he standard of c:ebato in this House has rca"hocl a vcrv lov: lcYcl iudeccL \Yhe;l one n1Pmber cai1 rd1oct on the crPdiJ- and honour cf another n1C'.~.Jber of this Parlianwnt ,,.,ithout any f'Yidoncc.

Mr. HA '\LO:\ (Jt!,rtcrt): Th0 "\tiorney­Gt';lt•ral. in reply t.o hotJ. 111{ 1nbcr~ on this ~id(' of tlH~ C:hn,mbr'r. hac: H1fH]P the clai1n t1w'- this TiiH i:s necessary 1d prot,·ct the pnblic. and po:nrrcl out partiouLtrly- what he consid0red an D bunc of pcrn1iL"- to conduct n rt unions. In H1:V~ opinion. the only reason foi' ,,hich pormission should be giv0n for :tn art union or lottery i;; that the proceeds shall be devoted (o some puhiic purpow. I am not

Art U:,ion Regulation Bill. [10 SEPTE}IBER.] Art T..:n-·on Regu/.,:ion Bill. 883

-.;;o IDU{'h conccn1ecl about ·what tha1: purposf:; i~ ~o Jong as it i~ houc.t and decent; but thPre should Ll1 a distinct under~tanding that, iu. the <1 YPnt of r1 pcrn1it. br-"ing grDnted, no pnvatc pcr~on Rhould dcr1vo any profit fron1 Ib conduct. ::\o ono should be entitled to uHtkc a liviDg by pron1oti11g art unions, as i) su~·gestr:d in thi., Bill, which giYPS iho ~-\.ttornf'y-G('IH ral po\ver t_l fix: the conditions nndL•r ·which arL uLiOllS rnav Le ,_oaducted c,nd r.hr- fee, ur rev;ards v-rhiZ.h n1ay be paid lO per:-;ou~ \Yho protnot art uniow.:. I defi­JJitely ::oty that no fee or r~ward !:'hould be JH~id to auybody '\-d10 i~ a prornote•· of au '.rt unio11.

The ATTOHXEY-GE;;ERAL: I agree \rith you.

.:Vlr. HA~LO?\: The Bill gives the Attor­. ~1(;'~\·-Gcllcral that power.

Tbo ATTOHXEY-GEXEHAL: That was the h"is of the complaint by the hem. member fo1· Townsrillc. I wouid not permit that.

:11r. IIAl\LO::\: I -do not think there is 'llY gn'at concern iu the minds of the public ~o long us tlF_· proC'eeds of the lottery or art unwn arc devoted to the purpose stated. whcth?~J· tl1ey go to a p~litical, roligiouil, o1· ~11y otncr purpose, prov1ded that no perso11 '' allowed to ob!ain a private profit fror,, -them. The drawback to all these functions i- that the people complain that the money contributed tmvards a lottery or art union i~' not devoted to the purpose set out, and if th?J ,1r0 not SO devoted then a wrong is bemg clone. In the event of monev bein" <ocUl:ecl from the public for any honest and legitimate> pubhc purpose then the rnonev should be devoted entirely to that purpose, and 1f that 1s clone thc·re is no need for the Gon·rnrneni. to interfere or for the public to Jun-e any alann.

Tlwre is no doubt that art unions may be oyerdonr. There is no doubt that for some years aftct· t-he war people were rather inun­dated with books of art union tickets. Not only. \VC!'P art unions conducted with the per­m!oswn of the State Government, but I know thct my own letter-box frequently contained hooks of art union tickets from X ew South \Y ales aud Victoria. l\l ill ions of tickets were pri-:1tcd and sent oui on a gigantic scale, and Jn thosf' eas<.o tho>e concerned did not take rdequatC' caro that the money subscribed w<'nt towanls the pnrposc for which it was ,,I;;,('ribcd. V\hen H!l art. union is conducted on such a giga:.tic sca1f', and books of tinkets are s• ni all over the Commonwealth of Aus­rra]i,,, it is impossible for the committee con­trolling- that art union to keep trace of all rh; books sent out. Tho pconle who recPivc t-ho boo~~s an~ in no W'lf ,Lresponsiblo for thern; thC'y a.re not con1p(:llPd, nor can they l>t• f~xperted, r,o pay- the po -tarro or v1aste th.e . nnr·. pn ticularly iu the en-/] ;;f busy business people, of f( ddrC."'>ing th~ books of tickets bark to the Yaricvs Parh of th" Con1n1on­" oaHh from "hich they come. In those Z"a'"es it is possible for bOoks of tickets sent ~wt in th}~ loose rnanncr to .rret into the !1ands of children or unscrup~lous people who conlcl dispose of the tickets, kc~p the procr~ds. ancl not return the butts. That dangf'r has ahvay:.; ::truck 1nc in connection v;li-h the large dist·ribution of art union tickets all over the Commonwealth. It struck cw· that the monf'y contributed bv those rnr,:hasing the tickets vvas not· being r(•turncd to the people who promoted the art umon. and the procedure uncloubtcdlv needs checking. This Bill does not in ai~y way

th 'L. It dor'· 1101 in rny \Vay interfere \\ anv of ti11.: cY-ib \vhirh vxist in ihc con­dnct of. art n11ion::-< or lottcric.:5: it r-hccks no t>vl.i wlu-!':cYt'l'. TlH• u:rt u.:.1lorl bn~incss \va.s o\·prdone (r,ving mainly to !he fact tbat dur­in·• tlu: v r vcriod cvvr./ ru;:.. ihh excuse 1-vas ~al\:l'll aJ out of the vcople for \-;_:·ion~ p oilv1· lllll'po;;;,c;;:;. During-t h. VI<'., not a, ic>'Sll or a

tlw Cc.HtllllOnc,.tJalth too SIIH' ll to for t..iu; assistance- of rcturnc,J

1'0 'lcl c:mnforts to returned ~. or to l'l'licYC the star\ ing l)eople of

lki'.::itnn, J<:n~.Jand. or -whateYel' pr"1rt of the nrld iJJ"-'!' \Vt'n: ink'l'i ;:;tcd in. Consequently.

th '·t' nxt nu io- -.. bcc:.t.rnc n:>r;v p0}1ulr.r during : 1w'· period. and formed the ha bite that later lwe[l111P, I· rhap::;, a h~tndi(J __ p to thi,~ rountry . 1~ Ionnrd tlw bad habit of extravagant ~pendlug. froEl \Y' ich pcrl1aps the country suffered laiPr OIL Xo IUattcr what the pur­po;..;e of th(' art 11nion was it was pa·rticularly Hoticeabie that then' '--'·as a distinct appetite created n mongst the people for art union tickc,. }1onoy was plentiful. and they were cnjo:,ing good c::>ndit1ons. Consequently, art unions wL·nt off \ c'rY well. The result was that 'omc peo;J!e g<;t the idea that if they found it nec£'.3:-;ar,, to raise funds for any pur­JlO'fl they l!Ct'd only obtain permission to con­duct an art union. Later on the people had a surfojt of art union tickets, and in tnany eases art unions were allowed to be conducted b~, the then Attorne~--Gcneral for legitimate purposes: but. on the conclusion of tho art union, it was discovered that, ·although hundreds of pounds had been subscribed. --ufficicnt had not been contrilmh'cl to pay for 1 he priz"' or the con dud of the art nnion. Tlwrc also g-rPw up the e.-il of professional promotNs. who were paid out of the art u11ion fund' for promotieg and conducting art unions. As the pvil grew there was forced upon the Attonwy-Gcncral of the day the nccc::-,sit:v to formulate sornC' regulations in order that some cont-rol might be exercised on'r tlw conduct of art unions. At that timo lw issued instructions ]a~·ing clown the pur­poses for which all permits for art unions would be grantt'd. He also laid clown cnrtain conditions which \Yere to be fulfilled if the permit were granted.

About the s.auH· tirr_c the " Golden Ca:-:kPt" \\" .. :.;; c·.tnbii~·hrd. To rr1·v n1i:ncl. the cstabli;:.;h­lJF'nt of tiw '' f~oldPn ~Casket" wa~ a Yery

moYf' hY 1 ~~P then Govcrnrncn t.. Monev \' .. L-. pl0ntifLll during th.?.t period, and ail incrf':;.-•ing Lrnde J1ad ·rrovn1 up in this Stat:~ i.~ t-icket~, £ol' the t'arnons "'J.latrcrs.all'·"'' lott'cT~v.

1 !lu~ "'D}ount of rnon~'Y going .out

t-• th t 1otrcry ( J.\ _l Yt. .1r \Yai" ratncr alarr:rung. The. propriotOr~. 1n ·TasnH1ni3, securcJ a VFTY

le; I I' "rak0-oH·" as profit in each lott,~ry. It ·.as rip·ht -and j u;.;i for t~1c CoYC'lT!lllC ·1t. of i'w ·da:: tC) pt;d( .~-your to stop rnoncy go1ng io !hat l--!'''17 for the benefit of priY.'t'' n· oplc, when it could bn ns•'d in this State for public pnrpo'-'S. Th• . .Y did tht' on!~, thing po lble in that connection by establi,hing tho ·· Ca~kct" in order that the profits

eo to oubllc S~"rvic- .,, Th, Gc·vern~ mcnt th~n sPct{rerl the bulk of the moncv sub­scribc.d in Queensland for lottery pm·-po.,PS, and the nrofit~ -wC'rc dlv0rtcd to hospitals, ba bv clinics. aud the ecta blishment of mater-n1h; hnn1' That in itself '\Vas a very desir-able policv. Th8 establisl11ncnt of tho •' (iolclen Casket'' was abcolutoly justifi,•d. noh ·ithst nding that the! Go.-ernmcnt werJ rot too keen on giving an ''open go'' to garnbling.

2vlr. Hanlon.]

Art C:nion R""ctulation Bili" [ASSEMBLY.] ~1rt <Jnion Regu'ai~on Bil'"

Thi, 1)!11 strikr~s .a bloYr at thn industrial l:ll;ur 1110 nen._, ...._\.irno~t sine~ Quc~:uslnnd

Ll'c'11 Stet( pC'rnlits ha ye bPC'U gJ anted to the indu.~:trial Labotu:

a E't unidn in con­j)a,· cclebm·

tl!c shilling f<lr that purpo.3o ~-- a:3 \Yrong-fullv

haYD nuver he. ard the Attornev­~my hon. lllCL;ber slUing ou thlit Housu suggc"·L that the rnoncy

in this mannn by the Labour Day Conlntittcn was '- rongfnlly used.

ays dovotc·d to the purpose for \Ya-. =-·aised During the period

rnoucv· ·.";a-, rai·~.cd in this n1anner ev-_n tho mo"t ~HtT"Olv-rninl~ed person in the con1munity did not objc·ct to a permit being :"ranted to tlw L~boul' De"y Celebration Committc•o for raising· funds 1n this ruanncr. The proplo 'vho bought the tickets wcro never dissatis· fied. Tid.a_,ts \)Pre bou;rht. not only by activo suppnrtcrs o£ unionism, but by people oppo,ed to the party in politics. They cheerfully snb>cribed their shilling. knowing the odu­c tional value which would he ·derived from th~ proceeds. There has been no public demand for the termination of the permit granted annually for the Labour D.,y Ccle· bration Comrnittce to conduct an art union. We can onlv attribute the introduction of this Bill to a ,:cry noticeable desire on the pflrt of tho ~\dn1inistration to do anything wi~hin their pow··r to injure their political oppo­ncmt~. En•1-y avfLilable opportunit.· has been seized by them to .ti·iko a blow, fair or foul. al their political opponents.

TJ· _• Bill it ·lf is both cumb0rsomc and fc ~fusinf!'. Th~re is not 1 be sliq;ht( ~,t doubt tlHl_ pcoph~; after reading the Bill, will b8 lc·ft in th~: g-~·catbst euufnsion a01 to tho mar.:_ncr of obi:ll1ning pcrn1it~ aud cr;nducting r<I'! unions. One varagraph of clause ~ corifers upon the l\Iinlster to f-ant p( ·Tni ; r this Bill for educrrtio,1al, r-L !Tlt, blt_', or rcligiou purpo:~c.s, and-

Rl1\ purpo--.. ~ ,,,hich in the di~ctcbon (!f ::\_tini·_t~~i· it is cnn~!dered de~irt'.ble,

to .-:uch con.iiition. as 1TI<1v b; fl'C' ::;rjlJr-d, eitlH'r 7011erally Or in~ any p<! rti- a~ae ea·~·-·, that a p, nnit should bo granL•rl.''

That gin:>s the Minister C'cactl;c tiP power which h(~ i~; cx0rci~:ing to-duy. lie lHls tho povvcr il 1 J1is fEscr~tion to grant a pern1it for the c"ndnct of an n.rt "nion or lottery for any purpose ho thinks right. and he can lav down anv conditions which he thinks nccc"'"7· I( ihe Mini tor wants to lcv,aliso a prae!Hc. which he 'Lt· -; ic only being­done hy regulation at the pre· ent time. then

n 11 he he s to do is to introduce [7.30 1l.m.] the small subclauso to which I

referred--clause 5 (1) (d)-inst"ad of introducing this great. cumbersome, and confu:3ing rneasure in order to legalise the powers he has now. In thi- Dill the J\1inister is tnkiwc exactly the same poF<'r>' as he has at the pr<''-cnt time. The Dill in no way limits the purposes for which a permit for an art nnion shall be granted. Und.er this Bill the Attorney-General has power to g-rant. a permit to the Queensland Turf Club or to the Brisbane Amateur Turf Club to conduct an art union in aid of its funds. At his discretion, the Attorney-General has power to grant a permit for an art union in respect of any purpose, so that the Bill in no wn.y narrows thB po\Y·er nor widens the power which the Minister presently has.

[Mr. Hanlon.

The Bill leans matters as t.hev are at the present tin.· :;et t!1e hon. g-entleman intro­dure;:; thi. c-.Irnbcr~on1e measure full of con­traclietorv clausf·c which will confuse the mi;,d of 'the public. proving- that the whole thing 1~ a 1m:. of ,,ordy camouflage to dis­f"Uiso the desire of tha Gover11rncnt to injure {ho Labour nlovf:n1ent ii1 the raising of its fundc. The whole Bill reeks of that political patrmnge which soc,-ns to bB char:,cteristic of the present Administration. The JHinister takes the power to refuse or to grant a nermit to anyone he thinks fit; and he goes further than the previous Administration oYer ··.-ent in that he takes to himself the right to tax whom he thinks f1t. .\t the ab>olute discretion of the Minister, it is left to the hon. gentleman to say, " I will give you a prrmi't. hut vou must pay a tax on every ticket you sell."

The ATTORXEY-GENERAL: That is not true.

:'.1r. IIANLON: The power is in thB BilL

The ATIORO!EY-GE!-IERAL: Nothing of the sort.

::V1r. IIANLO::\': At the introductory stage of -this Bill. when I asked the Attorney· General if he would tax tickets of an art union ·,,-hich "as recently conducted in my district for the b'mefit of an incapacitated ,y·orkrnan~ the hon. gent.leman said, "No, certainlv not." Then I aekcd the hon. gBntle­n1n.n W·);11d he tnx the tickets jn an art union ''OPclnctecl for the school of arto in my dis­t.ri~t., a1~d the hon. gt~ntlcn1an sai?., "Yes:~' Can t ';c hon. g-entleman show me m ~he B1ll that th' ·e matters are not left. enbrely t:o hi <}·; crC'tion "? Thcr0 is nothing 1n th1s nlPL~lll"f~ to .t ,. '"':hat rharit:v or pnhlic pur­no~e is to be ~ubjcet to tnxr.~/~ion, nnd. what is not" to bl :;;ubjc:t to L•,xahon. .Tt 1~ left entirr1-, nt the di~C'rPtion of the J\linistc~, r.) t.hat'. jf J· 1w r ;opl(' \~1ph inp; for the permit nx0 of his prrrti~:~lar 1?oEtir·"11 colour, ,~e can hl,v t,) tll<:'In, '' \"\'e \Ytll not tax you.

The ATTOROJEY-GEXEI<AL: W1.ero is that in tho Bill?

::\Ir. IIAXLO'i: Surolv the :Minister does r-ot. '-L~ that the pOwer of taxation is 1'( lr J) hl di:~~:rcLion! It is a dangerou:-. prr>c j, nt. for Pa.rllnrncnt to gi.vc J.JO\Vel: to a 7lfini .fer to entircl::, at hi:, dlRcrction. \Vo have lwcord a lately as to the tendency o[ GoverllDJC'Pts tak r·owcr by revulalwn (o do n 1l oorte of ; hut. I do nut think th0r0 t~rn lnonv in the British Emnirc 1vhcrc a- ),_rinister t~kes pO\Yer to tax at his di: /_:rct:on.

a Mr. }J~,"\LON: I have the Bill before me.

anrl perb:tps in th~ Committee sta~·n ~he lliinister 'Xill point out the clause wh1ch fixes the po--·or to tax. The remarks of the Attorn a, -Goner• I nt the introductory stages of the Bill are in "Hancard''; and it can be ~cnn where tlw hon. g-entleman told me that in ecl'tain c"1,es he \YOuld not tax and in other cases he would. Power is being taken un,]c:- this Bill for the Minister to make himself a ta·mtion authority, and, further­mow, to g1·aduato the tax to suit himself. Is there anything to say that the Minister will tax at the rate of 2\ per cent. or at 20 per cent? There is no limit laid down.

The ATTORNEY--GENERAL : It has to be· limited in the rules.

, Att Uni·m Reguiu'ic,n Bin. [10 SEP1'E!>IBI'R.] A1·t c:nion Bccrulation E:'/1. 0S5

:"vh. HA~"LO"': The rules wiil be framed by the Iv.1i~~~stcr.

'The A.,l,_TTOIC~EY~GE}JER_\L: Do vou ","ant to make then1? ~

:,Ir. liANLO>T: The :\Iinister is taking pO\YCl' u<Jder this Bill to do tho taxing. He can tn.x one citizen and not tax another si1nply at his discretion; and, furthermore. he {'an tnx on ,Lny scale he likes. He can ~,ay to one n1an, " You rnu.,t pay one penny in' Uw shilling on your ar~ union funds," and to anotho1· n1an, '' You n1ust pay three­pence in the shillinrr, on your art union." Th ~re is not the 3li· htest doubt that in the per:od the l1on. g-'ltlmnall~ has bc,~n adn1inis­tcr~11g hi."i Lkpa,.t·tnu;nt he h~ts displayed a vd·u grLat gift for cl1anging his rnind. The public cannvt sa~, that this rneas~re i;:; giYjllg thC'nl any control, any protection, or any Lnowh•dge whatG\ er as to how they are go1ng to g:'t an art union. No comrnitteo thr_t desires io raise funds for .any charitable fllll'pO ;tnd decides to approach the Govern­rneLt ,·oe pern1ission to run an art union y~ill bo able to say before consulting the Mini,ter how much taxation it will have to pa.J ; and no committee will be able to say what the prospects are of .a return from ;;.;uch urt union, because it does not know 'vhcthcr it is going to be taxed 2~ per Ct"nt., 10 per cent., 50 per cont., or lOO per cent. Tho Attorney-General will have power to fix the rate. It is a most dangerous practice, and one that is to be deplored. Thorr is no doubt that the criticism levelled at tlw Government in regard to legislation by regu· lation is fully justified; but to impose a tax by regulation is the dizzy limit. If .any taxing is to be done under this n1easure, this i' the place where the rate of tax should b<~' fixed; and this is the place where the ciass in the community which is to be taxed or exempted should also be laid down.

The principle of taxing funds raised foJ' public charities is a bad one, and there can be no justification for it. Will the :\linistor say that the cost of a clerk in the Treasury writing a p8nnit ticket for an art uniou justifies him in taxing the money subscribed for charities or for religious purposes? Thero is no justiftcation for it. There are countle"·' things which the Government have to do and services which they haYe to render to the "'ommunity which they cannot retail. The {}ovennnent cannot retail all services to the community. ·we do not retail our educa­tion; we do not reb"il our police protectimt t0 the communitv. This afternoon the A ttorney-Gcneral ni'entioned that the Auditor­Genera.l's bCrYiccs to th,_· comtnunitv wore not retailed d so much a vard or so much an hour. Those services ~re rendered in bulk to the community; and the community n1u::>t pay for them through the ord-inary clw nnch of taxation; and, if this control of charitable funds is to he taken at all it i., one of t 1wse scn-ice·s which should be paid fo:r through ordinary t<1: ·i:ation. There is no j nsti{ication for retailing this protection to the public. any more than there is for rctailiwr the police protection which is pro­':ided in our street, It is a bad principle ir deed; and jt shows the Government to be in a 1110~t parlou~ condition indeed ·when til8:: ha v:, to dc'f,end to the taxation of tbo threepenc:,s and sixpcncc,, subscribed by the citizr"'' of this State for charitable purposes.

Incidcntollv it must be borne in mind that the bulk of the moncv raised throu•rh the,,e art unions is raised fi~oln the poore~ classes m the community. There is not the slightest

\Yorking pc~plc. in the to charjtablo and n~1igions

thi'Ollf,h the 0 art union . rrhcso PL'?plc· ca11not givP their half guinea or

the church, ho'·tJital, 01~ as people in ruore for~ can do; and they haYG

r~n o£ l'l ·"ldcring- so.Lno a:· "jstanc·J to ir "titntions by purch ~i~g a 1 ic\rt annual art union. For the _._\tt.):._lley-Gc·ncral to say that h0 j~ going to C1kc a share of these procPcds 1s, to my rn:nd, the of 1ncanncss. _._\nother hnn. ~p~aking this afternoon

ar~ un;on ~for tlw bcnPiit of .1p \cit··ted _ oldicrs, and ho said ho would

< h, ,,rfnliy tax ,he proceeds of tlut art union. Ir is ihc cs~encP of lneannc:-s to endcayour tv take " " cnt " out of the money sub­ocribcd fo>: iHcapacitated soldiers.

Snrely the _~\ttorncy-General cannot justify the takin•, of a share of the money sub· ,cribed for thc"e pnrposc; instead of putting "" ('Xt.ra frauion of a penn:: in the £1 on the iuco:rne tax of peoplr with higher incomes ! \Y{' know that t.he GovornmE~ni!'s taxation pro:;nun1ne includes the lov,,oring of the <'xunption in ,regard to income tax. By that me~ns the GO\·ernmeut hope to hav" an inereasP in the income tax receipts.

'l'he SPEAK. ER: Order!

:\Ir. lLL\J,OX: I submit that this Bill inflicts a tax on the comn1unity.

The SPEAKEU: Order! The discussion of the polio,:~ of the Government with regard ! o income tax is not in order.

"Ylr. HA::\LO::\: I am illustrating; tlte point 1 ha1 the Coyernrnent arc not going to tax people who can well afford to pay for these sc<rviccs through the ordinary tax-paying channels, and f1lll pointing out that the income tax proposal only affects people with inconH~" over ;i-J250, who will thus get off. Some hon. members may try to justify thi, taxation of the proceeds of art unions by •aying; that the previous Government levied a tax -on " Golden Casket " art union tickets. Tlw distinction must b" borne in mind. There i,; 110 analogy bctwc<'ll the " Golden Cask0t" art union ·and such art unions as >tre n [)o,vccl for the raising of funds for pnblie purposes.

The }sroRXEY-GEXERAL: vVhy?

:\h. lL\:'\iLOI'\: For the ro..1.s0n th<tt the .. (-;olden Casket" art union provides as a prizL a b~J "'UDl of n1oney. and it is the tn~g­nitude of the sum offered for the first pnze in tln; dr~twing whjch rnakos the sale of •· G-olden Casket " tickets so succ-.:ssful. The m:u1 who gPts the first prize is very fortunate. The dnun'·t' of a first or any other prize in a ': (}olden {'ask et" art union \vas at first compelled to pac· income trrx .o~l.the amo~nt d1'a\Yl1, nnd thorn ;,vas no po:<>""!b1hty of nvold­ine; that, and no de ir: on the put of the GoY0rnntent to allow people y;}w- won £5,000 in ih~ '' Goldrn C tsket" to t;v.=;do paying ine-JIYJC t:tx on thnt rnonc.v: but, in order to <11ak1; the pri7.DS as attnwtiv,~ as possible. it was d('cidf'cl to ~hare the incon1e tax among the 100.,000 sul"cribcrs to the "Golden ca,kct" art. union. ancl that is the present lll'acticc. There i, no roo,emblance at all hehve0n i he winning of a cash prize in a " Golden Casket" arc union and the winning of ,ume otlwr prize or trophy in an ordinary 11rt union. 1\'o inNnne tax woulrl be payablf\ fnr inst'1nce. L~v a pen.on who won a goose 1!1

Mr. Hanlon.]

nn art un}ou. It \vouhl not be returned as of 1.iJ inc:onw. There is no analogv,

het~, 0en pr·oplo wbo ,vin prizes in urt 11Eio11~ or rcftl.c" and the "Golden

( ·a~kl t " pri~.::: -\Yinners.

\\" c h, ar·d L Clll the Lon. IYH,'Xnb r for Eno.:;·­of pn0ple \".-ho f·trow

u u of £c,OJ a year and can·_, dl~.- on ::;idc-:--ho·1· O\ving to

uJllGdltt c~ !Hone~~ ·hich is n1ade ;l'Y:l L:tc._,l. lf the hon. 1ncrnbcr "\Vants to t( ... th .. tl:: theory, l '.ould advi.,.,e hin1 to take a tl··:) throug:; Lite countl·y with a siclc-sho"\v d11riug· 1 LP next J'C'CCS::> to find out ho',Y hard ::t. i, to 1n1I...:c 1ucncv. Saute of tho s:de-show

n1al;:l' <: (>-~ nt ljying, but a lot of Tll'' re is not rnuch lllOlli)' in it,

.:1 t tb2 pn_ .;cnt tin1f', \,hen things The ruajn rca:)on wh-/ I refer to

cf th<' hon. P.H'JU'uc1· fo:- Enop:gera l."') lw an'-e I think it wns rathe~· an unv:ar­r:lH1,_.d ii ult to the 11olico of this State for th( ho11. IW.:rnbcr to f- v that it -,vas necessarv for oid0--hcw p<•ople 'in every tmvn to go t'OUild bank door a lid SOO the local polic.L · man thev coulu sho\',-. I do not bc•li< Ye thut for ~ woment. l thiuk the hon. PH)11lh(:r \\as rlra\Yln3" a long btnv in his story 11bout th0 f.l:.~Antjc profits n1adC' and the m;nmt'l' in vd11ch the police were OlJCH to the Li'lltlc art of pcr~uasion.

1 \YUnt to say, iu C'Otlclusiou, that hon. n:cntbcr::; opposlto arc not th0 Simo.1 Pure~ tlwy pOf'C a~ in rP~_"ard to ga1nbling. \Ve haYo had an il!uetraiion since thcv have been in no\\er tlwt. when e;~nnhling ~nits hon. mcm­h(•r::; o:1posite. it is uJl 1·ight. Th -~ Govern­:nent !'L'f'cntly rcfu_3ed or- 'vithdrcw pern1is­sion fnr bookmakers to fwlcl Rt coursing n1cNinFs. That pc>rnli;:--,;;;ion has been in uperatio·! for n1any ·ye:1rs, and boolnnakers tr1Y0 ficldPJ at- coursing n1c0tings. So1nc people hold that the permission should not l~c' given. l am not greatly concerned as to c- hether they got a permit to field or not. I arn not a ;,n :1t believer in the servicr: rendered to tho ::-.t<tb by tr11ining a dog to chase, a hare; but tho point i, that the pcrrnis~ior1 was withdra\vn bv the Govern-JrJC'nt. -

T[w ~\TTORXEY-Grxc RAL: Thc·y no,-er had a permit.

:\I1·. IL\1'\LOX: cl'lw Government pro­hibited them fl·ont fiol.ding- at coursjng n11'-~et­in:;s. <l11Ll for ''OITlO considerable tirnc thon~ \\as quitP a ~ensntion in sportin~~ circles. I knew a bookmaker. who told me that. if thw- fwld •cl, thcv did it at their 0'\n risk. I I<no·" that rncentlv it has happened that

PJ~1n1pton cour -in Incetings bookmakers bf',"'n allo 1scd to Lc1 ·1; and 1 know' that r~_~"InhPl~'-' nppo.;;ite rc~prr- ('llt cJ "C~_oratcs

\Yhcro Phnnpton cours1ng is yerv popular. T lw-;-c no rr•ason to Joubt H1at thcv: iuterostc,d tfJf\lTI'~ jn tlw ~,at{.cr. I <.nn ilot qnarrel-lin'l· that. 'I'he point i' that the Go-\'ennnc'nt arc 12ot the Sin1on Pures in this m 1.ttr·· that tlwv ,-,i,h the ·mblic to believe. r:r~hPy an• no rn(~re keen on -~uppr1 ..;sjng gmn­hling th~m any other s0ciion of the cc;m­~nnnit,Y. Tho £art rcmainR that, so long a~ It pleases hon. members on the other sirlc, g-arnbhnr:; can ~o on just as frocly as t:p:dPr any other Govf~rnn1cnt: and I tun not going­to >ay that this Bill will m an the curtailin:C of the is~ue of pcnnits jn a·1y y;ay, b··e1:tusc, so long as the granting of permits is at the disposal of the Minister, and an applicant can make out a good case, he will get a permit. The Bill leaves no doubt about the fact that,

[Mr. llanlon.

~c loP:_ af' people "\Yho apply for an art UJ11 ull i:l re: < ('C'Cptd11e to tho :JI.inistcr a nO.

goc r_l the pennit \Yill be any unfor~11nate being

or having vot::-.--l fm_~ the of bcins an active n1ember

applir,-' fol" a pcnnit for :1 1 rt u.:1wn for any pnr~o--::.c• \Yh ''ever ·while t 1-w -G l_lcrol has tho po'Y _:r he i . .,

Ill ke o- t ntr•d.

JS

this BiJl !

~,:l'. C('OPrR nu ) : I arr1 not Yery :ltt·,·l! l'JJ<lnlYJ.ecd 1 g'c1IlJbling frou1 any p'.l.r-t 11l.ar i ar;dpc int. I arn not going to deaJ ~.,c;i h the qn.c-.:t ion ;11 a gc"eeni \\~ay; but I t]link rn(HC' than one 1ni : i.:, lv:ing rnaCh~ in th'' Dill bc_~f 1L u.s. J 1nain pur-.,o fur wh~r;:l J;.:>rn1i;t.:.. rna b8 i:::sucd arc _1igiou::;, ch:;ritabh, anJ. CLtU' atjonal; and

, j,o one z u1 quan·cl v~~r ... 1nuch with bciu~ ~:r;1 an teLl to people interested

tlw .. e three thinr;s. Probably tho .... \ttornoy­Gn c·r:1l \YOu~J f(',t hin1~C'If n. -..-cry difficult iL~ .k if h·.: ur!dcrtonk to Hnswer the quc<::.tion,

iYhat i., " r cligious, what is a charitable, and v;hn.t is an 1--:luc,ttjonal pErpose?" I lc~lYl"' hi1n to grapple with the question as to ,,hat i; a. religious or a charibble pur-­pose ; but I Y:ould like to pa :: some attention ir) the cti1er query-as to_ \vhnt is an cduc<;­tional plnpo~,~-~. Education, of course, 1s b:owledge. hrorrdening of the intellect, special ""dv in anv p: .. rticular line. anything that u·ndS to widen knowledge. r:l'here is not the sll~hte··; doubt about that. 11oreover, cduca­ti~n i· not always o general matter. We c.::nEot ronfinc tho tcrrn to a matter of general knowkd. ''· There arc people like thP Attorne.---Gc;wr.'l, who arc lc..trned. in the law, and prc~ba bly have no knowledge whatever of nll'dicin•'. Still. that does not say that the study thc, hon. gentleman ha~ undertaken j.-} r,_t ,,,.w --:.ional. Education IS not solely confi_,erl to what ha Ye bec:n termed the three '' R's.'' 1t has a n1uch wider significance than that. c\ny movement or anything at all tL·,.t broadens tho outlook and tends to th'· gonu ,tl bott0rmcnt of the community is an educational effort.

In that regard I want to draw the par­ticular attention of the Attorney-General to trade unionicnL which I believe he pro­poeccs to exclude f om tho provisions of this Bill on the '"round that it is not an ecluca­t.ional movCI;ent. I contend that it is a great, cJucatlonal moYement. It has dono a great d0al t.o broaden the outlook of the world o·enerallv. 'I'hc hietorv of trftdo unionism fs w well known that- I have no need to mention it h<>re. All tlHt I need say is that therr- is not on~ n1an in this Assembly, no matter on which eide of tho House he sits. \Yho ·wi1l OJ)P~1ly ::tntc that he is opposed to trade unior{j;.:m. It is a forre th··,t has ,,·on its wav throup;hout tho leng-th and bn'arlth of the ... c~vi1i:-,•d wor~d hy the sheer vvcight of tho just1ce of its position. It has grOIY:r: by the ju~ticc of 1b clairn~ unaided by anvthinQ' ds0: and jt has y, on it.::: way b~-- tlwt justic••. which is deeply loved in the -nHlHl by nll 1nankind. UnJike n1any otl.1cr things in tho comrnunity, it has in the p1st depended upon itsdf. There arc many othm· things that, while very f":ne in llntn,oe, do 110t depend Upon them­,_]ves eutirel::, and which would come within the s0ope: of the measure no1v before lV.~. Kot\'1 ithsianding "\7ha.t other forC('~ hav, don~, probably no material force in this world has done so much for the general

(•t1ucation nf Inankind as tl1c trade union rnovf'rd -nt. On that ground. and on that r..;rOU!Hl a ]ouc, lhc )~tlorn0y-Gcll\ ra] should ,-on~lclcr that tl1P tr:: d~ Enioll lHOYCLJont

com~ :3 ,-vithin tlH' four eorncl'ti of the h--nn "ednr:-ttion; l." Ilis 01-)jrction to it, I bel icYP i 1 ~,at jt is in _o:rnP for:n or oth£r political. I ,,-·•nt to dra-,- his attention to the fact thut eYcr~~ great n10VCl1~ •nt is 1nore Oi' le :j 110l~tif'aL Tlu~ cdw~ational lnOYerrlLtlt of this State :cnc1 the '" educot.;o,,.l lllUYC-

HH' -t of 1s a sense political iu this it is 1 ccc· -·arv to nsc the

conutrv fo ·, -.tab1i· h thf' things that arc d0-:irc;:-1. ~T1w tr:~dc union rno,-rnlPnt. n~e..; pollti( _, for 110 othet· ~-han to gPt, 1r the YOiC'f\ of the p00jllc. things that it h. lie\~C's sbonld be f'St:J.bllslH-'d. 'The .\ttorncY-Ge:::H~l·al doPR not ren1C'mbcr the vcnr 1E90~th:• i,inw of t.h0 ~~TP·tt 1nar-ititne ;111hc ,,Ya1 in ~T 'W South \Y'alc~s-\, h -,n, by direct <tdinn, the w11ole o£ the SttJtc of Xew Sonth \Vales and much of the Sbto of (~u£cemln'lr' ".-Ols laid iJlo be- !he mariti1:10 ~trikt•, 1J-,- tho she-arers' ~trike, and bv the

atc,,sidO \"."orkr'r'·-' strike'. \Vhat w;.{s the advice giTcn to the. tra(1L~ unionists of that dav? It v.r1s thnt tlwir remedv >eas the ballot, and that thev should use 'the ballot­box to achieve the reforms they desired.

Th(' SPEAKER: Order! The hon. mem­ber is gf?:ting a\-,'ay fro1n the Bill.

:Ylr. COOPER: I dispute that, ::VIr. Speaker. I am pointinr, out that thesP, men were advised that, if thcv desired to obtain what they 1v·i~h~ d to a,chie,-e, then they should use the ballot-hox. If the·: desired to obtain anv reform, rh,_ v \\C're ~dvi:;;cd to achieve tluit end throu~h their politico! bodiE's. Every t haritable iHstitution ha ;ing a charter granted bv Parliament is political in the ~cn~·O that t1ll"~ trade union n1ovement is politi­caL and in no other scnR0. Surelv t.here is nothing wrong with any organi~ation, no matter what it is. attempting to get by force of the law of lhn land th<' things that it believes t.o be ri!l'ht fllld just! There is nothing more or le,,s in the politics of the trade union movement than that. That is _j] that tb, tr;· 1t' union n10VE'lnent has ever •ttempted to do L~· le[iislation--to get fixed in law tho"" things th.1t it beliew's should h• there.

ThP SPEAKER: Order~ I ;.hall be com­pelled to ask the hc1tl. mcntbcr to diseontinuf" his spuch if h<l doh 11ot obcv my <'all to order. ·

:\h. CO<: PER: l:'robabl: • 1'Ir. Spnkcr. I ma-.· not bu ahlc +o work it round as quiekl.v

.on LHt·· ,]c,irc. );cvertheless. I contend tt_.j , ~iD il·D_dr_• union nl:OYclnr-lt is an C'duc"".­t.io1Jn.l ITlOV('lll<'~lt, and thnt it ij v .::_•ll within t!-•0 rank<; of nn cdn{'ational ITIO\'Cn1E:mt. I .;m \\'Cl! within bounds m saying tlut, as an crL,t ·ttional force, it 1~ ::ts lllltch (•ntitled to n:- the po1iiic-Jl rnachino a\ any othPr fotTe in the land.

1fr. 2'\r.:,~:,;o · It n~f's it for prop'"~ganda.

:\1r. COOP1<:R: \'\'hen all 1" eR id and •1on''. w1; ·rt j,, propaganda? The old lady who dci'iYed such comfort from that blessed \\'Ord " ~'fr '',0110+ ,•.!Hi a n "~-: :-< ihc Vf'l'V anti­thesis of the hon. member,; on th0 other :::·i.Jc, ,, l10 n ~·ri-,-0 such violent shoeks from the word "pmpaganda": but probably thev arc just as much in the dark as to the mcaninc,- and 1ccJ 1·cason of the 'word as the old lady referred to.

\rhiln th trrrde 11nion r1oYont0nt T0tnain·· nn cducationa1 there is no _jll-·tification on tho nnrt the ...\7-tornc'--GenPral to c :clud0 it fro1.n the onorations .. of this Inca-

I hi~-.1 to~ in hi~ reply just hil·· r<,;ard. J want

it i.;; <-tn cducatimud fore,:. I \ 1 nt th·A t it ln.s lJpf>n a g!'cn t. fol'Cc f01· np1ift only for the people with 1 • hon1 it is intinuth:lv C0!1Ct:rn ·cl but for all (;tLcL .:<L·:tic,r of the" <-vinn1nniiy.

It di~·~clnirah•:-; lnal1r1ous pro-

The hem. r<1cmber for 1hfli the tr1ck union movc:n1r·nt

h or lees than a means for the of pcn11C'1ons prOl)a_?:ancl.a.

Tl11t shovi'S the hon. nH'n1be1·'s lack of r:dnca­tion. It is <. Y('1'/ l'P~ rr'ti-ablt~ thing that in 1 he YC.tr of g-race 1930 there can be fonnd. in n dC'Eb--rativ(• a .,,emblY uch as 1 his an hon. nH~mbPr ,~-ho \YOuld 'give Yoicc to ~uch belic1~. Tradn unionis1n 110t onl \' L nef:h tL,J pconle jntintatclv concerned in_ tlJ0 tradp HPion .ltlOYC'lllCUt btlt (~·cry '<~Ction of tho corr1n1unity.

The SECRET.mY FOR Lmrn-R .\XD I:,D-cSTRY: Your trade unions carnot h0lp their n1eTnbcn: l•) ~:'cnr,_· cmployn1ent just nu\v.

1Ir. COOPER : Trrtch> un;onism does not profc3s to haYo as its sole or 1nain object l hc ability to so h-e unemployment; but it doPs claim to ha.-e as irs main object the ((• noral 11plift of tho people. It is and ha·, b 0 C'D an educational force in the com­nlunjty.

The SECHETARY FOR LABOl-R AXD Ixm.'E·TRY: Tt; hr.s not any ain1.

:VIr. COOPER: The Secretary for Labour c,nd Industrv would like to draw me off the tmck; but· opportunity will come to mt before this se'· ion is ovr r to point out again rh ·t the trade union moYcment generally has done more to "" ist un0mploym0nt than 1 he hon. gentleman has done.

The SPEAKER : Order ! ~\Ir. COOPER: I think. }lr. Spca ker, thut

I : m entitled to rcpl:· to an interjection made by the :\Iinist.. r.

The RPEAK!.:R: Ot'dcr ~ I have already called the LDn. lHCniht>r to order. He :s ,;ot dco ling 'vith tho BilL

:\fr. COOPER: I intc•nd to obey your call to order, but I contend that I am entitled to "t'pl_y i o nn)r i!ltcrject1on n1ade from the t :oYcrnn1ent benches.

The SPEAKER. : Order ! :\Ir. COOPER.: C:nless you, ~Ir. 8~1eaker,

c 11 the hon. gentleman to order for inter­.iectim", I considtT !hat I am entitled to rL.ply to him.

The SPEA.KER : I did not hear what the Yiinister said.

)'fr. COOPEH: I cannot understand. Sir. 1 ':hT· vou could hear nr.~ remark and vet t'Ot;ld ·not hear the intcf,iect.ion to which I replied.

Tho 8PE.c'\l(ER : Order~ :\1r. COOPER: I just ''· :wt to conclude my

'P' ech by saying that the .. .\ttorney-G" neral has .. et to show~and I ':ill go over the gro~1nd again by re ,son of the jnt.erjection made~that trade unionism is not an educa­tional force.

Mr. Coope1·.]

S88 Art Union Re:Ju[a'.:on Bill. [.1.SSEMBLY.] ATt Unio;t Rcr;u!c~iun Bill.

:'.Ir. KEI .o: FaH your speech is made by ir~tcrjcction.

COOPJ~H : The hon. ~~f,:1tleman is .shov. Untt, in excluding the" trade union !llOVl .. ncnt fL'OHJ this Bill on tho ground that it if; 11ct an educational fore·~', he is defying

a mass of evidence hich can be [8 run.] uroup:ht Lef,Jre him-evidence

11. hjch h0 c<M1 soa·rch for and very rrhe trade union rnovcment in

·I done mLICh ~:·ood. In the past on efforts such as those mcn­

}lill for ,he ;;n cttcr p~rt cf its me cmpha.ise that thue funds

ha vo b'2{'D de oted to a very genL'ral and a \·er:: 7,00d purpose. The trade union move~ m.ci:t tws bui!t hulls, libraries, and, generally speaking2 lL.s a,~-.istcd its n1ernbers, and if there i anything wrong \Yith that-if that i~ a rnl~appropriation or a n1isdirection of funds-·then I fuil entirelv to see it. As a 1nuttcr of f<~ct, when _vou cLome to analyse the t:xclwsion of tho trade union moverncnt from participation in art unions, you corne peril­omly near something in the nature of clas·~ 1egi. lation, the like of which has never been att.ompted before in this Hou-e. The Attornry-Gcneral is not i1nprov-ing his posi­tion, and, in the main, he will not do a very great injury to the t'l·ade union movement. If the hon. gentleman thinks he is going to suppress that movement--

The ATTORKEY~GEKERAL: I am not trying to suppress any movement.

Mr. COOPER: Anybody who professes to h;tve any views in the direction of educating people .,, ill always try to broaden the views of others who are nanow in their outlook, and my little effort to-night is merely to endea.-our to get the Attorney.General to see another phase of this question.

The SECRE'rARY FOR MINES : If that is your best effort then it is very poor.

Mr. COOPER: There are judges and judges, and if I were to search for a judge I would not select the Secretar1 for J\'lines in that regard. ·

The SEORBJ'ARY FOR JY'IIXES : That shows your bad judgment.

l\Jr. COOPEH. : Then we are on common ground in that ,regard, although I am sorry to think that the hon. gentleman should class me in the same category as himself. The activitic9 of 1he trade union movement for the last th irtv years stand as a monument that cannot be cq~-alled by any othe·r body of a flin1ilar nature.

The ATTORKEY-GEKERAL: Where is it'

:!Hr. COOPEH: Throuc:hout the length and brc ~dth of this land. It is to be found in tho fact that children are better educc"ted. that familid lut\·o batter opportunities for enjo2ing Jife--

J\fr. ::IIAX'>'- ELL: You are not claiming that?

:VIr. COOl'EH: \Vc are. \Ye are claiming lhat the imdo union movement has raised the standard of living, and that people enjoy for their children a much better education than 1vaq possibh; before the trade union rnOYC"lnent can10 into E'xistence.

:Mr. KELSO: And out of that money you pay agitators to go round.

[])[r. Coope1·.

~~'lr. COOPER: Con'-!doring t'w n1a::·nitude of the trade~ 1r1ion 1llOVC'rtlcrri:, it hns very few 1wid oflicial~~. I \ ant to rerniud the hon. 1ncu;bcr LJr XuJH1; lt that the sbgrna 1vhich :'_t ono tinu nita<'hcd to the ·,1.'ord '' agitator"

.,, orld is full of e,gitators, hr.s only progressed because

c: ,, ho are rclly educator> in that di~c~...tion. is because they arc in1bued with the ch'sire to educate Hwt they are agi­tators. I Jll'ed not rernind the ho11. rncmber for Nucl,''l.h that in His day the Great Master w.l;:; look[d upon us an agitator. I-Ie was l'(:g:nded al:i a so\V'~r of di~scHsion arnong the

jn ·which Ile Eved, although He was grC'at educator of I-Iis d.~.:v, and I-Ie was

as much aboYu the intellect of the people of that tlrnt. 1R thC' average trade unionist is ahc~o,d of t~w hon. rneruber for N undah, :tlthough pro}·~tbly l arn boating the wind i~ tryjng to convince the hen. mcrnbcr what the great trade union n1oven1ont has done.

Mr. KELSO: The ho11. member for Nundah i..-, ,·baking you up.

::\l[r. COOP E-H: If the hon. member for ::\undah could only shake himself down there is not the slightest doubt he would be doing some good. It is a crying shame that in this vc·ar of grace thoro can be fonnd a

1.arty ,,hich believes that a~ry reputable body of men who bind themse1ve' together for general advancement, and use every force that thr State permits them to use, ev~n to the pascing of 1egislati~n .for the beneht of themselves and the benefit of therr kmd gene· rally, should because of. that be excluded from the operations of tlus Brll. It rs a m;y­ing shame, and onL' that will yet fall hea vrly u::>on the heads of those people who have b:·ought E·uch a measure into this Chamber.

Mr. DASH (111'undingburra): Under this measure the Attorney·General mtends to legalise what at present are illegal games under different Acts. It has been pomted out thal various lotteries which are no\~ made illegal under various Acts ?f Parliament are now to be legalised, provrded tpose con­ducting them receive a permit t:om the Attoruey·General. 'I'he . Act;; mentwnecl m this Bill make the followmg 1llegal:-

'' Sale, gift, disposal, or distribution of uny property depending upon or to be determined by lot or chance whether by throwing or casting of dice."

The SPF.\KE-R : Order !

:Mr. D \.SH : I am reading the Criminal Code nnd l take it that I am in order . m reading something that is not in the BilL It goes on to ... ay-

" Drawing of tickets, cards, lot;;, num­bers or Jigures, or by means of a wheel or trained animals or otherwise how­soever.

" All illegal games or devicPs under the Gaming Act may Le put into use provided a permit is first obtained from the I\1inister."

If it ha,, bo.;n the law of the land for years to prohibit the e games of chance or lot­teric 3 why is the A ttorneJ ·General endea­vouri~o- t"O rnake thorn l£gal now·? For year. bpeople havo been prohibited from carrying· on those devices without a permit,

Ari Un£on Regulation BW. [10 SEPTEMBER.] Art Union Regulation 'Bill. 889

,.nd IJOIY the Go'-'7 ernment, \vho talk so much about prcvr,nting gan1bling, arc endeavouring to 1n.akt;" g·nnbling le~al !

1'\o do •bt the permit that will be received from the Attorney-General will state th<tt cer!·::tin game,) <>hall not be played. rrhen the l]UCc·tion arise• : vVhat will be prohibited under the Act, and wh.-t will not b0 pro­hibited! ·when it is co>1sidcred that four or fi,vo diffc_re:at \:Ltming -\eJs arc -cnPrz~ionc(~; tne quc,·t1on ansos as to \vnether thl· tote comes , __ ·ithin the definition o£ the Act men­tioned, and it ·will be po,·>iblc, "·hen a Jlermlt :., gr _Lntc'd for an rut nnion or a fair. for the pror.1otors to c:>tablish a '·tote." Every day the police arc arreStinr;" p~...-oplc in Bris­bane for illes·al betting and so on ; and now thn Govtrnmcnt propose to place a n1ea­sure on the statute-book mr\-king this bw;i­ncss leg,"tl. If a per,,on or a corn1nittce get,.-, a pcrrr1it to conduct an art union or a rn.ffle, and these ga1nes arc penrj_itted, vohat js wrong with thc'm employing people in the hotels iu the citv to .run " tot"'"? In that ,_,,e, how are the police to know whether these men are carryjng on legally under a permit. or whether they are nctiEg illegall? under the Gaming Act or undor the Criminai Code? That is a verv serious matte!', and one which th.; Attornev-Ucnerrd should <Jxplain when he replies. '

'\Vlwn the hon. member for Ithaca was speaking. the question of fees was men­tioned. Clause 18 of the Bill makes it quite dear that the Attorney-General can fix any fee that he chooees. He can fix the basis on which he proposes to g-rant a permit. \Vhy is one person or one committec to he treated differently from anotber person or another committee? Whv not fix the fee in the Bill oo that anyon'e wbo applies for a permit will know exactly what the position is? 1\' o doubt the Attorney-General will say that he will fix the fee in the regulations; but we have no idea what the regulations will be. All we know is what appears in the Bill now before the House.

If it was the intention of the Attorney­General to o:empt an amount up to £100, why v. as it not placed in the Bill or notice given of a propoeed amendment in that direction? vV8 can only take what is placed before us.

The ~\ttomcv-General a !so strtted that no one will bo able to ea rrv on a show at a fair unless he is s~ttisfied that such side-show i-; fair and square and abov0boarcL I would -ugg-cst to the hon. gentleman that, instead of charf!ing ver:v7 high fc{;s, or anv fees at all, for i·aff!cs, ho shoHld mention' a dav on wbich all the side-show people shail be required to exhibit themselves bt'foro,him. I \I'Ould suggest that he hire the stadium and chargo a fee, as that would be a good place for the snake eharn1or, the L•t le.dy, the swoi·cl swallower, and other show people to exhihit themselves. He may get sufficient money out of that to help the Govcrnn1'~nt in thP present finan­cial stress, instead of taxing the con1munity Ill conncctic n with permits under this Bill.

The Attornoy-GcnE'!'al said tha,t ho was goinf~ to reply to tho statement of the hon. member for Townsville in regard to the 1'rades and Labomr Council there. I might state that the T!·arles and Labour Council in TownsYillo ha< nove1· mad' nny profit 1mrth speaking of out of their Eig-ht-hour ,.rt union demonstration. Very substantial

prizes arc offered out of the n1oncy received from tlw scle of tickets. They have a picnic,

t which they give orphan children a trcr.t; they run a sport.' programma; and all the lnOIWY required con1c out of the ticket money P.:'CC~n~d.

The ATro:c·;-.;EY -G EKERAL interjected.

D \SH : I am referring to the art )11~- lv~1d up to the tin10 the hon. gentle­

refns0d n pern1it to the Trades and our ComKiJ at rrol,,_:n:;villc. They ran

nort.s and looked upon the <by as one on ,\,hich' unionist,, could trtkc their farnilios out for .a picnic and thoro'Jgb1v enjoy thorn­sc!Yn. The ''hole of tlw e;(pensc, including t ho prize money of the children, for the ~rod and the variou j a~,sistance rend ere~ in connection therewith was defrayed out of l11n fnncls collcctc;d by the sale of art union tidn ts. There we.s \"Cry little profit made; and I do not remember any instance where ir has ever gone iiJto the _\.ustrallan Labour 1'artv's fumb. Thev han1 used it for pay­ing ·~eeni of halls for union n1oet~ngs, the "-'':..:rcLlrial \.York necc-;sary thorew1th, rent of officcfl, stati.oncry, starnps, _tolegra1ns, ~nd m forth. If the trade uniomsts are demed th<; right of entert~tining th0ir families-not at the expense o£ thr capitalists, but at their mo n expelhc--then no other person has a right to a )Wrmit. The ticlwts are sold for ls. each, !tnd tlw workers buy them in the hope that they will be able to haYe one day out < .\Ch year at very little expense to tbem­·elves. The Attorney-General wjll say that there is nothing in the Bill to prevent a trade union from getting a permit from the officer in charge of the admjnistration when the measure conws into operation.

:i''io doubt when the La.bour Party get back into ofHce the·,· will be able under this

· Bill to grant )Jermits to Labour unions to conduct art unions and raffies; but the statement of the Attorney-General to the ,,ffoct that he is going to discriminate between 11ersons and persons and societies and oeieties is very unfair and unjust. No

harm has been done to the trade union movement in connection with their adminis­tration of this business. The whole of Bris­bane appea,rs to turn out 'on May Day to see the Eight-hour procession and take part in the programme inaugurated on that day. Can anyone sa~· that any harm is being done in this reg•ll'd '? lf the m one~· is not used -or an iller;-al purpose, what is wrong in giving a permit? It is better to grant pc'rmit> to a Trade's and Labour Council than to legalise gambling in any other affair which may t~tke place in the community. It is far bcttl'l' to grant permits to these bodies than to legalise games that have been c!cbnrrod foe· years; but by ono simple clause in this measure thr Attorney-Genera! seeks to Jr,galise all the games · that previous (}oyornments right up to tho present have banned ancl prohibited.

I haYe no \Yish to say any mDrc. I think the flTOund hao been well covered by hon. nwmhel·' on this si do; and I have no desire h curtail the time in which the Attorney­Ccnera! may 1·eplv. No doubt we shall be able to •zct from him a fuil explanation as tn why he is refusill'T permits to the trade uHion n1ovcn1cnt in (~uecnsl.and.

:\Ir. O'KEEFF, (Cairm): I would like to bdieYe that it is the pmposc of the Attorney­General b :;et a better control of g-ambling dcyicc·s in this State; but it is well kno;,vn, not only to members in this Chamber, but

llir. O'Keefe.]

890 Art C~nz"on R,gHla'ion Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] A·rt Union Regulation Bill.

:t!so to tho general pubiic. thnt his intention i:1 this Bill is to cripple trade uaion funds b 0· ..;t,;pping those organi~J tions frOin p~nticip d­ln,·: in nrt unions so th;t th0y n1ay bui!d up d:t·ir rf'soure''" .for th0ir ow~ iudu~trial pu;·-

If the Attorne:,T-Grn(•ral \Yl r t;;cnuine 1vant ing to f?-/~t better coutrol of p:r:_m bli1.g.

it is strange that hr; did not t·1kc actiou "ooncr th::tn he {lid in rr~fpn·nc t) the g'P.Hl-b1ing doYic- kno\vn as "fruit nwchin~>.;;,·· Y'hiC'h 1n hoJ·eL:. Thi~ !1Httt0r was brought hi:;; notic0 from tin1c to tinH· by me by v1 ay of question in this Chatnbcr; bu: I did P 1t gd an:· rep!;·. Thr c\ttornoy· Gcn0ral ovarh•d one· of n1v our~tiolls in n c::pcct a Rockhmnpton ,e~: Und ll hP kLJY ~ it. }lf' absolutely cd his eye.;; tu the facts.

Tho A'I'TOR:;\EY-GE)Ji·~':.\L: That' is uot trLH.'.

.\ft. O'I(J(EFE: It J~ true, a :d '"ell hP­knows it. Xot )or a moment clo I support these d<>vices. bocauso t'wy rob the public and lake tlw mone0· of the pcoplo without ;'L:V rhar.cn c,£ rraill to theln. Bnt. while the Mini:ter a1Jowe{l thorn to continur in th.' cji.y of Brisba!H.', in my 0lectorato in thr> :\orth !10 lnd thn polic-e. forbidclinsr thteir use. H<· should Ln·,, taken action long befnre he did. 2'\m· lw i,, trying· to hoodwink rho public into hclieYing ·thnt he is honestly try· ing to rontrol p;an1bling- de\?ices throur::·hout the Statn. To ~how how unfair tho GoYern· 1,1ont have been. lot me tell hon. members that by :\Iay last the Cairns Ambulance Briga·dc had gone to yr,ry heavy r·xponse in organisin~ a week's carn}ya,J. Tlwy then appliPd for pern1i~sion for boolnnah::ers to operate at that carnival. They applied to rhc· Secretnrv for Mines and to the Premier himself. the- roa,on tlwy · ur~·cd being that permis ion should be ;:rranted in this special case beoau.>e the Order in Council prohibiting thP operations of bookmakers at such gather· i1,gs had. not Leon issued until lst ::Vfay-lomr a.ftrr they l1ad coiTID1C'l1cf'd the organisation of t'hejr 1<trnival. :;\Iorcovcr, prior to thE iosue of that Order in Council, I think the police had stopped bookmaker,: from cperat· ing at a sporb m•,cting at Inccham, wlwrcas u few 't,vt<"k~ afterwards. :in the clectol'ate of t.hf' hon. lllf'n1b0r for· Chillago<~. the S0crptary for Mines, et Hcrberton, in the "Back to I-lorberton" w0ek, \vhich the~ l\finj~ter hirn­sol£ attended. thev ere aduallv a!lowr·1 to np0r2te on tlw spOrts :rround. ~i\.. wcE'k or so ::•ftcrwnrd~. on the other hetncL perrnis~ion was ;·efused to 0nable thr•11 to operate at the carnival at Cairns organieoed by the ambu· lan('o briQ:acle. I say that was an :injustirc. bcJ;ause ihPy hJ,cl been orgaLising for a long tlinc, and had ~one to expense in bringing the b;ct altrrrctions from the muthcrn por· tions of t'he Stat~; and the result of tlw .'lction of t·h:..~ Govc~rnmer1t was that. after a whole wePk's carnival, thoy rcalis0d on1y £10. thving- put their' foot down at Ingham, the Government should have continued the sam< policy. l hope, nt any rate. that the AHornc:v·Gcncral will administer this Bill in " manner diil"erPnt from that in which he has adrniuisb,rcd thn present la\Y.

The Bill h[h been introduced for no other purpose than to cripple trad0 unionism. and well hon. member. opposite know it. I hope tha.t the Mini::<t,er \vill in futuro .0-top all gambling clevicc,,, :tnd that he will not tax art unions. raffiPs, etc., conducted for the benefit of hospitals and ambulance bri­gades. The Attorne~,·General said that he rlid not know anything about a prosecution launched in Rockhampton as a test case to

[:Mr. O'Keefe.

decide whether ~' fruit machines " would ho permitted in that cit:. _'l!l of a sudden ,omc action by the Government allo ;·. ed th1~ . cace to fa I! through ; but thG " fruit EJachinos"' W< allo,.ed in the city of Brie· bu.~!O. ]Tor rf'ason? It ·was because somebody who wa, involved in the trouble hHl wffieioHt influenrn. and the l\ilinist0r allowed them to r;o ccot-fl'ec. The Attorney· Gen8ral will be in charge of the achninis­t.ration of this law, a·1d I hope th Jt in tlw futuro h(' ·vril1 glve n1oro consideration to ':he majorit:" of the pcop!C' than ho has clone in tho past.

::\Ir. \rr::--:STANLEY (Quccnton): I do not 1 hink that all has been said that could be ><<lid, nor h s all that ought to be eaid been c.1id on this subject. I listened to the "\linistcr "\Yht,'l introducing the Bill, a:~d I paiJ :lttcntioa to his so-called l'C 1 .,on for it-., introcluctioH. I cnrhinly felt that he had made no case to justify the action of the Goyernment in introducing the Bill. Hon. lll< mbers oppooito have oftontimcs told us that it is the function of n Government to gon.'rn Rnd not to trade; but it is also an axiom that it is the functjon of a Governn1ent to make it Pasy to do right and d iffi.cult to do wrong; hut this Bill is reversing ihe,c particular axiom. ·what has been somewhat difficult to do in tlw past is going to b· 1nadc t~a3v to do: and, inftead of curtailing­and rcstr.icting the gambling spirit and the o-amblin.O" instinct the Government are doing ;omethiJ~" that ,~·ill foster it and make it wore pre~·a!Pnt than it has been in the past. That is something very much to bo regretted from m>'.ny points of yiew from both sides of this Chamber. The Criminal Code lays it down clcndv and distinctly that the things that are to" be legislated for to·night are wrong. It. sets out a long list of thinr;s that are comidored to be wrong; but it also savs ihat thcv shall not be permitted except wi"th the sanction of an officer of the Crown. 'I'he Attorno.v.Gcneral might think that it. is well. but I think that it is ill. I cannot for the life of m" understand whatever pos· ses od anvbodv to put things like that in the Criminal "codE' and immediately make provision for the Code to be eYaded. The Criminal Code distinctly points out tha• < crtain things a1"e wrong, but immediately provision i" made to enable people to do those thinr;s. Of emus~, I can quite see that therP might haYe b0en a pandering to some extent to the gambiinr; spirit; but I think it wrrs a. wrong- thing to do, and it v:as 'vrong to place thut r0spon,ibi!ity upon the Attorney~ General. It v. as a \rrong thing. in the very 1;rst plac0. to place that power in the hands ')f anv _.\ ttorJle-v-Gcnera.J. \Ve haY0 for 1nanv ~vcn rs-prohablv thir(v-i.o1crated the J10:'liiloiJ, or put np ~vith it. :.:aying, " It is. not. rj,g .. hi. bnt in certain circumstances it mav be allo·,·ed"-on the principle that the cnci jcrst.ific,d tho JLcccns; bnt the principle ;1tas a rotten one, and things haYe been allowed to go on. This Dill propose' to 1r::ra1ise thmn: and that legal standing 1s

gi\rf'll to therr1 b:t tbr~ seal and sjgn of th(· Go1·ornmcnt. This measure will place them on a different footing altogether fl·orn what thev hayo ever l ,,en before. It is a very sad .. and grav:> n1ist.~kc. If something ·were done to curtail gambling and make it more difficult to em;age in gambling, the Govern· mcnt would ha Ye been commendcd.

It does sc"rn an incongruity and somewhat of a reflection on a Loasted civiliration that

Art Un.'on Regulatio~o Bill. [10 SEPTEMBER.] Art Union Rcu 1lotion Bill. 801

!3uch things as education. ('hrtrit.i, patrioti~rn, and rcli[ion-foul' of the lln(~st things we ha\·e in our civili;-;:_Ltion-haYc to be bol,tered up and supported b·.·, to put it mildly, ihn le~s noble 1 bing;;; of hun1a=1it:,·. \\-ho cun ho11, tl :;x that thc,·o thiug;-; shou.ld r:.ot be sup'/10rtr:d strt1ic c1t out ai1d that thcr·3 sh~nld bo 110 attGlnpt to rai~e any revenue by or to appeal to the people's br ;er to get this monPy' It is t1 ~·-ad rnflt1 ciio:l t1nt these thing·! f'O doo;;erving ancl orth:. \Yhid1 fonn ~ueh t1 fiHe part of our life, · l1onlcl be emu polled to adopt the<~ Inethod~, to obtain tl~" uc<::cs.-::.c< ry revenue to contjnuc. Thn trouble is that, when these perlllit.. arc g<r:•ted it will be clearly and distinetlv h_id duwn what tlE' holders are Pntitl~cl-h c!o. The dcp.;rtmcnt will nt1tur­·dly expect that the pc oplo who get the per­mit ••ill oh0rvo it. }Iost people know that when sumo pt:1plc arc givPn an inch the.v take a :,~arcl. Pcr1;1itJ are usually given for certain specific things, but it often occurs hat othe1· things far beyond tho e specified

in the permit nre practised. Whrn permits arc granted to such people it has been the practice fot· the police to br notified: then thev would have (o turn their blind cvr· and deaf ecr to tlwsc <lttractions. Th<1t 'is "n unsatisfactory state of affairs, because the re are people in the community who, if they think thcv can get an advantage or score a point, will not hesitate to attempt to do so.

\Vhat perturbs me more than anything else in connection with art unions and other things mentioned in this Bi!l is the motive which prompts the application and the spirit which is behind it. Does it not show that everybody is \vanting· to get son1ething for nothing? The idea is abroad that the only way a rnan can becsnnc rich qu_ick is by win­ning the "Golden Casket," u .. Tattersall's" swoep, or oo:ndhing elso otlwr than by hone.st work. Ono of tho causos winch has put us 1ll

the position \Ye arc in ut the prcsont tirue in Australia-Governnlcnts. organisations. institntionP, and inclividu'lh --is the fo1lowing out of this spirit and the belief that Govorn­nu_'nts can g(A sorncthing for nothing--that they can borrow money and SJWnd jt with­out baYing to rep:oty it. For that rc,ason, if for no oth0r reason, \YC f'Tlonlcl not provide facilities for g-;1 ~ubl1ng. Tho Ycry opposit0 should take place. The "\tto,·nc:.--Gcncral takPs n:> tho attitude that the Eight Hour art nn1on. trade nnio11~~ a ud other org:,nir~a~ tions conduct art un1ons for tbo purpo;;.:o of obtc_1,ininc-: fands for c<:pcndlturo on political purpof-:_··s.

It ha" !wen demon •tratcd yen- cloarh- that quite a nu1r·1.JC'l' of thf''1C a,rt · unions' hfi-VC litt lP, if anythin.g-. t n do with politic::d orga­ni~atiOJlfl. I kno\v qnitt> a llUtnbcr of thf•nl ·which ::;·1cnd the rrwrr'v iu oth"r wavs. A.t Chartf'r~ To'scr. th0y. h.· ,-c 1uL~ ~'i)lcndicl lihr.··-·i,"'· :t -1 run s:-:~,r-r;.; for <'hildit~n ag a rP"tdt r·f m0ncvs oh, lined frcnt art unions. These ohjPcts coultl not be enpportcd othe~·­wisc. It is (1uit.c true that :·omc of th1s nloncY is :::p0n1- in connPctjon \Yith trade union ccluct;tion and the study of economics.

f8.3D p.rn.·! H ihPrc is one thiug on .,-hich the rank

and fi'c rt•quirc to he cclncatNl, it is the f·tH tion of Pconomic::_, bec1UE'C one of tho r

1

r,·\~O~H \vhv we arc in tht~ p1~es0nt unsatis~ faciorv position is that. both individually and collccti,·ely, we have not practised economics.

In 0110 respect the Minister is ado)1ting a f.Lculiar attitude. It has bcpn said that the

rc~l on v:h\~ the "Golden Ca·.ket" \vas r··cutecl \Ya.s tbat the p0oplP •,. anted it; a:1cl that rea;" ning is put for\varJ as a justifi­cation for this n1r' bure. It is difficntt to

[trr:a ~. attention to that rea :.D11ing. see~ l!Jat people vmnt a lot of other things

\Yllich are Lot q;ood for tho.:11. For exan1ple, t·hc-r"~ arn ywop'lc \Yho T·; u11t opium, cocaine, and qnit:: <t lot of oth··r things the unre­.-:tricte(; t' ; ' of •: ~1ich ,-vould prove nJost l1an11ful ~ . tlLlt th;:- r~ublic h;.:n·C to bo p~o-_ !pctccl , c','alll'·t tht'lllSC'lYP~, .n~ was so aoly

b:-; th; hon. nH'r.,_her for Cn'jory on particular point.

that flt the prc~ent ti1ne " niuch too prc>vlllellt in Queens­

a ~rcat dc .. d of n1oney 1::3 lwlu => ·a j in thut dir0ction. ;,.Iy conl­p!uint doe~ not cc1nc frotn 1 he Council ef C'1hurchcs or h·orn tlw '' \\'0-.·.sers~'' but fron1 .\u~tealinn L,LLour l")arty branches, \Vho illforrn IIIC' ilwt rnan·~ you!'lg n1en earnint-. rrood <l'U:.·· fritter a\V<lv' their n1onc' at g-cilnbling ,chools. If tho "money that is now :;;pent in gan1bling were nti.lif't"d in in~us~ t.ial cntcrpro,L·-in producmg somethmg worth whik to meN the needs of tho people­dwn there would bn Io-s nrwmployment tht1n I hr•ro is 't the prt"·ont time. I strongly nrgo that jJoop]P in the position of the Attorr><•v-UcnNal and the rest of the hon. JHt'tul:or~-.; \vho compose the Government "houlrl bp leaders rather than followers, and th,.,- should emulate the man who said, ·· 'l'hcsc al t' my people; I am their leader; the\ 1nn~t folio,; rnc."

n.v gi\·ing a legal ~>·an<:tion lo garrlbling­a c:-,uJction '· hich it ha') never had before­the UovcrJunent are n1aking a sad mistake~ and I am quite' snro that many of their ow!' supporter, will not thank them for thm oction. It was statPd by an hon. member that little f'xccpt.ion Pould be taken by t·IJUrdws ;1lJd similt1r bodies, as they, too. indulged in thc"c gambling practices. 1 kHO\V, ho,Yevc•r, that quite a number of chnn·]w, forbid it. and will not permit the g-cunblin~· ele!ncnt . t? enter . ir~to. ch~1rch ba:.-:aars, L'tc., rccogrntnng that It Js Infinitely better to "i.-o full .-alue for money they rect,iYG rnth<'r than indulge in guessing a.nd (Ji her tpunhlin~.{ eon1p;:t_itions.. I I?a.ke . a strong point 01 the S[llrlt bohmd this leg:ts­lation-Llw idea that peopln can get nch l_).Y g~n1iJUnrs .. ,vh1ch is one of th0- greatest fallacll; Imagmablc. Assuredly tho Govern­n;cnt ·will Hot 5et tiw connrwndat:ion of an.v

for thi~ ll1P<l-illl'0, \vhich~ instead of gambling, will have the rcycr e {':':..pecss ·p.1rticular rcgn-:-t that a~

a, tinlP wh0n i"-O ntanv more inn1ortant l"·uhlc•w. t",•quiro adjustment the . Govern-

shordd introduce paltr:, and petb­l,·~·isl.ttion, of which this Bill is an

The ATTOR'-iEY-GEJ'i"ERAL (Ilon. ~. F. =\ 1 ~wg-roart?. /)'wuth liri:;bcnt·), in reply: I do not inte!,d to devote much time to my reply. althou!.!h jt 1s neccE:::ary that I should ans\ver :->{·me of tho n1is~tatcffient~ which have been n.•adP b"';- hon. nu'tubers oppo ,itc. \vho appear t•> tbinlc that we are introducing this Bill lwc :n:-;e \YC~ arn opposc{l to art unions con­ciuet,-d fnr E1s-ht~hour Day movcrncnt~, etc. I ha Ye to ,, lhnini,ter t.hc .\et accordmg to tl- ~ regulation~ 1airl d(Y;~·n by the previous GoYnllrnent: 'incl I tn- to admini,ter those r-: ~nlation ln thl"' S}Jirit .in which they \Yere fl·omerl.

If anY Labour union or L1.bour Council is able to' convirrcu llle of the justness of its.

Hon. 1Y. P. Jiacgroarty.]

892 Art Cnion Regulrdion Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Art Union Regulation Bill.

elai1n fu1· arr unron, I wi] l ha Ye no h( itatioll gT'-"nting· it. Th,Jy vvere not ablr to l.)uYinN~ rne in a nun1bcr of instancEJ \

71hlch I nF;ntioncd when speaking on this 13ill One in tan cc that I montiouod

a Labour Council which \\Tote -~ penni<::-::.lon to hold an art union,

that the proceeds wcro to go librarv of the Trades Hall. At

san1c iimc th~ y :::0ut rue tir1zcts ~,,·hich tJtL'Y propo"nd to j---~UC 7 on \vhich it was dis~ tir:ctly Ahted that the procc2d, >Yere to go v-· lhC J Jabour Da v Co1ebratjon Comrnittec. I could not reconCile the two, and I re-ally bcli<1v< d that t]yy did not know what the:,· \Ynnted their fn.1cb for. They saicl the fund~

one thing, aucl ih tichyt el~P. I \LlS not ~ahs­

rpfu~ed tl1c pennit. I have hon. nH'rnbL•r, cf the- inst.anrt'

corn1"ctiou lth tht' -"--\_n,tralic~n Labour Partv ut \Yvrl'lum wlwro we found that. v·:lH'rl thPY 1o'st Inol~('Y 1n one in~tancP, they were abl(• tu get it.L out of the art. uniou granted for th0 hnnd throurh some ~ecret rneans and the funds did not go towards the purpo~c for tvhich _l grantt d Hw !Jern1it.

'l'ho object of this Bill is to take control o£ art unions and fairs of that bnd and to regulate them propc•rly. . The Opposition a pp( 1r to object to req·ulahng thf'3U th1ngs; but I am the Mini,str:r in chrage of the department, and, whether they like it or not. I .am going to regulate theru, ,'nd tlw Act ic going to contain provisions whereby peoplP who do not comply with the conditions that the· dopartmeut lays down will be punished. I think that is vorv desirable, and I think rt will be very effective, and that art uniom will bo properly conducted. \Vo shall know where the moncv goes, and lmm1 that. in the m:1in it will ·go towards the charitable, edue~tional, or religious purpose for which it was proposed to hold the art union.

The hon. m~mber for TownsYillo stated that I had acted in a rnalicious n1anncr towards the Labour unions, and you, Mr. Speaker, promptlv made him withdraw the remark; but he ·,,-ont on to illustrate how malicious I was to the Labom· Counril by actually s>wing· that I refused the Townsville Labour C~unCil a peru:1it fo1~ an art union to raise funds to take orphan children on a picnic. I interjoetod that that was not correct, and the hon. member said, " Yes; you did grant a pe,rmit, but you made the conditions impos­sible!' Let me give Hw hon. member the facts of the case. Mr. I vett, the secretary of the Townsville Labour Council, wrote on 24t!1 Fc•bruary asking for a permit for an art l1Dl011--

'' In support of this appl1cttjon I rnay sav it is for educational purposes­minwly. to provide a sclrolarslrip out of t!w proceeds for some child who has not gained the required pass and whose par011t, ar0 !~ot in a position to pay for further cduc~tion. The council has t::teh Year entertained the orphan children of Townsville at their annual picnic-this. a::; vou know. at consi·dPr.ablP cost. An ncki10wledP.·mPnt i;:; ahvay~ received by t ho council from the State Children Depn rtmont.''

M 8.39 p.m., The l'nHR:I!AS OF Co:~rl\TI'fTEES (:\Ir. Roborts.

Farl '/'oo7toom ba) reljeved the Speaker jn thP ehair.

Tlw .\ TTORNBY-G BNERAL: I had a liitle bit of trouble to reconcile that with the

[Hon. } ' P. J!l acgroarty.

idn r!,-,t some child did not haYe the re­ouircd nass and had to b.c, educated. How­t~YCT, thn hon. rrw1nbcr for Townsvillo sent that .appErntiou along on 27tll F::_•bruary with 1lw following lc<·ter :-

'' \Vi th further r<?fcrence to n1y con­\~er~mtion '·,·ith you n'<'arding n request from the 'I'own.'ville Labour Council for Dcrrni . .-;;;;ion to conduct an art union, pro­~c-.cL of which arc to go to educational ar.d charit tble purposes, I now enclose an application from the secretary of th_o council in which he makes formal appli­cation for the ncc0s:-:ary pE:~rmit ."

1 cnnsid n'rl it, and I said to my"' If, " \Yell. it 1~ a. rca!'onablc thing for me to grant a lH r-n1it," and I issued the pC'rmit on these: tenus~

"A .cholarship for some child who has noc · aincd the required pass and whose narf'nts are not in a lJof..ition to pay for further education, and to provide a fund for the annual picnic of the orphan children of Townsvillc.

* * ".\ balance-sheet of receipts and ex·

]wnditurc and a sl'at<ement showing the dispo;;a[ of the proc•,eds must bo for­warded to this d<'partmcnt when the art union is finalised."

That is no innovation on my part. I also wrote to the Secretary, Mr. Ivett,

on 5th March-" Referring to yonr letter of 27th

February. I have gra.ntecl permission to secretarv, TovdJsville Labour Council, corner IJcnham and Sturt streets, Towns­ville to conduct an art, union on or before 31st 'Ma;v, 1930, in aid of a sci:olarship for som<' child who has not gamed the required pass and whose parents are not in a position to pay for further educa­tion--

That •v-ill show how' far I was prepared to go~

" and to provide a fund for the annual picnic of the orphan children of Towns­villa."

]\ o rEw,trictions or conditions-there is a clear permit; but the hon. member. said that I first of all refused that permit. Then he said I made conditions. Where were the conditions? That u balance-shoot should be furnished. There is the correspondence in the dcpartmonL

Mr. llYXES: You have not shown all­there is sorne n1ore.

The ATTOR:'\IEY-GTNERAL: I have got a telegram ctddrcssed to the hon. member for Townsville from Mr. I vett, the secretary of the Town<ville Trade and Labour Council. The hon. member for Townsville gave me this himself.

l\1r. HYNE!i: I gave it to your Man Friday.

Th0 ATTORNEY-GEI\ERAL: No; the hon. member gave it to me. He came into 1ny roon1, uccmnpanied by ~nether gcn.tle­nH1n -whose nan1c I ·:1IT1 not go1ng to mention. 'rhjs is the telegran1. delivered to--

" ::Vlr. IIvnu, M.L.A. ·· Parliamont I-Iouf_,t',

··Brisbane. " Queensland.

"Could any surplus obtained in art union proceeds be used for any other purpos<' by Labour Council than that stated."

1Ir. IIYXES: That means to Bxpensr of printing the tickets. rncnt laughter.)

Thn ATTOHN.El-GEKERAI~-

cover the (Govern-

" Authority states groH rec,~ipts be held in trust for purpose "tated.

i\Ir. IIYKES: Gross receipts-that IS the point.

The ATTORKEY-GEc•.JERAL-"Do you think it would benefit COU!l­

cil fina.nciallv under these conditions to proceed with the art union?"

i\lr. HYXFS: Thov would have to pay the cost of printing the tickets and other expendi­ture.

The ATTOR='JEY-GE~ERAL-" If so, would like authoritv to he

altered drawing to take plane 2oth July and not 31st May."

Mr. HYKES: \Yhat is wrong with that?

The ATTOR~EY-GENERAL: This is what is wrong with that ! The poor unfor­tunate scholars and the orphans mentioned were going to be called upon to /-;ive so:ne of tile nroeceds to bc1wht thP lmnl:,nl!e Trade rll1d Labour Cnmcil financially. That is the n ason why I heel a g;oocl deal of douht about the bona fides of the Labour Counc;] in regard to the application for cL

permit for an art union; and I think J was justified in rn, attitude when I hund that kind of th~llC \Yas g01ng on. l granted tho t permit for a g0orl purpo~P, as I thour ht. · lmt I faun cl tlnlt the TO\YllSYille Tracft'-, '::tnd Labotcr Co:1ncil wanted to berwfit finmocielh-. 1 asked th'' hon. !liCmber for To1Vl18\·illc t;.,-nigh+. :111d l CJ'_.k hiu1 D·"·~ain Virht'ther they pror :.:'(·d('d \Yith that art Ul1I0:1,

o:· abaJC.do'Jed it b:caus~ they could Hot b('ncfit financi;: lly?

Mr. Hn; s : I will answer you. They abandoned it b,- reason of thP fact that you ex pc_ -tcd ih:'ln. t"o. find frorn _their_ 0\Yll finarc.cs the c,c~, of pnntwg art umon t1ckets.

The ATTOR='JEY-GE~ErtAL: I venture to saY the,. were frightpned that they would ha Ye" to p1·odn< e a balance-sheet. The hon. mcmbc•r for TownsYillc could have told them that there is nothing; in the lrrw to compel thern 1 o 11rocluce a ba l an er" ~hc0t; but, "\Yhcn this Bill goes through, I shall be able to require it; and the per~on ,vho ?o('·~, not furni•;h a balanc0-sheet wtll bo pumshed. I think that is ju tc••cd.

Ut r seeing the hon. member for Towns­ville I wrote him the following letter dakd 25th :viarch ;-

" In rep!:, to the attached telegram left hv you vcstcrday, I haYe no obJcc­t:on to the datce for 'the dra·,,-ing· of this art union boinP' .dtercd from 31st :;\lay to 26th .J ul:-, 1830, if you so desire."

Still nropared to go on and give them their permit-

" It would, however. appear from this tc\c<rram that the Trades and Labour Cou~ci,l, expect to bonotit from this art u-nion.

Mr. HYxES: _\s a matter of fact, you told me you would grant it.

The c\TTORXEY-GENERAL:

" I thm•<ihl I hrrd me.do it perfectly clear to vou that I will not allow any political ·party to benefit by art union

fund•, and I must insist that ,_ll moneys coilectod arc placed in trnst for the pur­lK>>e sp .. cified in your application."

Ivir. I-IYXI:s: ('All rnoncys."

Th ATTOR)JEY-GENERAL: -~ny rea­"onablo cxpl'nSC"', would hano be"n dlowed.

::Clr. HYK•"o: That is the point. You did uot s,ty that.

The ATTORXEY-GE='!ER.iL: With re­ga1·cl to what the hon. n1en1bcr for Gregory :-;aid about different gan1cs of chance, ·"".re ,hall regulate these matters, and decide what h·ames of chance will be allowed. He spoke particularh about a game placed with cellu­loiu balls. I also w.ttched that game, and sa~' people catchinc, the balls in the nets: and it seenlcd to me to be fairly conducted; but if that net is not big enough, we will Inai;;:n the o;vncr.'.J proYidc a biggel' one. (( )pposition laughter.) \Ye will regulate it propi<;dy. Tir>gulations will be issued whereby 110 game ,,-ill be uiJfairly conductod-(Oppo­f,~tlon inteiTuptjon)-and no garno of chance will be allowed under anv conditions in v~hich money will be won. ii'hcse things can bo properly regulated.

•• Fruit nuwhjncs;' ~unongst other nuttters~ lu1v0 been dealt with in tho past by the police. The police clo not come under my dcp,utment; but the '' fruit machines" were brought ycry forcibly under my notice, and I went out of my way to sec the Commis­sioner or Police, and they were stopped in a, \"cry n-a.sonable tirnc. They w£~re not going vcr~,- long in Brisbane. to n1y know­!t ]go; and they w re dfcctivoly stovped so ·r)OJl 8S it 1,\'as establidl-H!d to the satio:Jfa-ction o£ the Con1m i1"3sioncr of Police that tbPy were 1a:fair, or that evcr;ylhing· .. ,., ::ts not above­board. (Opposition in<crruption. 1

Tbc hon. n1cJ,,bne for C\1irns refcrrC'd to tho 1n1:,? in ·,,·hi~;h '·fruit 1nauitinc~." had : c ~~.n stopped in That indicate, that the policn in v • .-~re Yorv adiYc. und :tnljpcJ thern quickly. To n~y kncnVlcdgc t h, polic in Hockhampton-and I have had

d0al of iuqui~y 1nadc about this topped thun very ~cffectiYoly there.

Th'. POLLOCK: Wh:· were they allowed to eo on in Bri-,banc, thc11?

The \.TTORXEY-GENEH ·lL: The police· -in Bri:::.banc were i1Li:ructed to go ronnel ancl f;nd OUt how the- ... · \V('l'O bc:ing operated and 1. Le re thPy \·ere Lcing used, and ur.dcr ''hat conditions, and th·"':!. rcpon:; frmn the police· on!=· < ,me in just a little \'hi le bcfor they ,,., f'ro stop::).cd. '\s a 1nzlttcr ot (·Oinlnon ,·en.···~, hon. 1YL'n1bers will undc•r::-tand that ., lF'n polic· .·re in~trnctP.f to make inv(' ti­gations as to 1vhid1 persons a.rc operahng nch things as " fruit rnachincs, n und

1.~ndcr wlw,t conditions the:· arc being opcrat~d, .}t t.:k;-6 Ron1o time to g;~ . a. eeport. 'I nf' pul1cc wc:nt all round L.~rr·­banc and ruac1c inquiries and reported a.,. to 1·ow thrv \Vf'l't bt•ir~1 11:": cl in the Y,1rious

hotels, and then tho Government took the nutter in hand ancl caid that the practice VIaS to be Rtopped, and it ;,.vas stoppc':"l.

Mr. HYNES: Thcv :;ave them three weeks' ~""~''o after the report wns made.

At 3.50 p.m., The SPEAKER resumed the chair.

The ATTORNEY-GE='!ERAL: The hon. memb+>r for Townsville also sai cl that I had !o comult the Employc,rs' Federation at Townsvillo before I c:ranted a perm1t.

Mr. PEASE: Didn't you?

Hon. 1Y. Jt', lllacgroar'ty.]

391 Art Union R ;ulation Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Art Union Re9ulaticn Bill.

The ATTOENEY-GEXEHAL: Nothing of the sort. In the month of October la "t I l"'CC'tYod, through tho Korth Queensland Employer:-;' .r\._:;;sociation, a petition signed by sixtf'en siJOpkcepcrs in tlw heart of the cit~­of Towmsillo a,king that for the month of D·"C'elnL 1·--th0 Chrisilnas sr 1son at len.st­perniit" Jwu1d not be grantr"cl for art unions for the di,poR,ll of cho· olatc.s and other things in To'", n -.·;illc·. They adYanccd vcr. good argutncnts '"h:...__h I do Hot 11ropose to read. Th••y pointed out ihat it co't thorn a good cl< .. d to pa_• tlwir rent: ihat 1t cost d10111 a. good t

1 (''ll to :::tack their premises; and th0y ex.pccted to L1e allo-wed to rrtakc rc.tson­ablc sLles during the Christn1a~ season. They asb•d if I would kindlv consid, ,. their jlC'tition and 1nt gr"nt an:,' ·permit·, for art nnions in the month of Dccemher. I hold their petition in rny hand. I considered it. and ce,me to the concltFion that. as there \H:re eh.•Ycn rnont.hs in the year du1·ing which art unions could br> conducted. ih0ir requt-st was a reasonable one. They pointed out that they had to pay their employees, and that things w>:re not as good as the\· harl been.

M·r. HYKLS: Did you get a similar request fmm any other place?

The ATTOHNTIY-GE:\'ERAL: :\o. If I got a similar request from any other place it will be considered on its merits, too. After giving the rnattr•r due consideration I decided not to grant permits for art unions in Towns­ville during the month of Decembe·r. I con­sider that a reasonable thing to do. Hon. members opposite probably know a number of the signatories. and possibly agre<' that the request was a reasonable one.

The hon. member for Balonne referred to a rabbit consultation. prizr•, or hatcver hP tPrmed it. That matter c.nne under the notice of the police. and I know that they prevented that competition. Hon. members opposite know that tlw police do not come under me· control at all. but I keep my ec·cs open in connection \vith thesf' matters. This rabbit comnetition. or whaten•r it was, was ,topped by the police.

1\1 r. BRcCE: \V >ts the hem. member for Host> wood interested?

'l'hc ATTORXEY-GE::'\ERAL: Hon. mcm­bero have heard the reply of th•· hon. member for Hosewood, and I ltave no intention of .doi:'g other than acceptinp; what he said.

Tho hon. member for Mount ::\ll:organ said i:hat I rcfusPcl n pcrrn1t for an art union for the Labour Dav Celebration Committee. Ho

nntonded tha·t it should not haYc been n fused. bPcanso thr cr_lc~;ration cornmittC'o

as not Labour. because it bclievf'd in hrvr­monv in ilw State. All thot I have to sav i. th.,t I a~.rce with the hon. mcmb<'r. ·

:\fr. l'OLLOCK: He did not say that at all.

The ATTOH:\EY-GEXEUAL: IJc c~id ll· 't distilldly. I iook it down.

Mr. PoLLOCK: He would not be ,o -iily a to ::-;nv that.

Tlw ATTOR:\'EY-GEKERAL: The hon. member for Bundaberg referred to the quos­: ion of cl10wmon. I hold tl1e opinion that ~ir:c-:d1o1' s Dpcrat inp: at the Exblbit.ion an cl nthcr plarr-. should b' contro!lLd. I had a 1 Jn\ ~:rsabon wjth the hen. mcmb"r foT Bun­(i;-o.bcrg, who also wroto 1110 on the 1natter of i·C~'1trolling side-shcP-\ ..;_ .... ~gri~~ultura] sho\'v~ canJJnt b-e e~_~-1ducted ~uccP.s~fulh in anv tovrn i :1 Onccn~!and unless sidPsh01vs arO Pf'r­rnittcd. It i~~ def)irahle, as the hon. mc111ber

[Hon. N. P. J!acgroarty.

pointed oul. that the side-shows shonlcl be controlled hv the icsucs of license Onlv the· c contl'oflc J by rc:tJutable persons should h1_· pc•nu:t1ed, ;JlH-~ th, Govprrnucui will rcgu.-

:u~attcr i:1 ~·mch a nwu:ner a to uud·, intblt) PL'01Jlo. The hon. IIH'nl­

Hu- .drtbcrg al~o sugrTc~.tcd that thoy l .lp Ued to denlO .. '::ltrnJ:.~ t.heir

is only a co":rnon-scnse thing thaL <;:,hou!d be do11c. Before

is i-',;1cd to an applic.'.llt he will upou to explr!,in full:y to us or

give· U r tratio:1 of his dcYiCC. :'-lr. PoLLOCK: \V ill you personally inspect

thern:

The ATTORl\'EY-GK\fERAL: What is t '1e {'OI:~lllOn-sense ans\vcr to the l1on. mornber for GrPgory? This ls u n1atter -which will be deputed to a deptntmcntal officer to inYeati­gate and r,'I,ort; anLl upon that report a: permit will or will not be issl!ed. If I ltavc the time, I certainly wiil interest myself anJ 1nakc insp<>c1ions.

The hon. member for Ithaca said that I was going to tax the people, and that I would &a,. to some, "I will tax you," and that I would say to others, " I will not tax you." That is not so. I distinctly told this House that the fees payable for permits under this Bill will be set out in a regulation which will be issued, and that no fee will apply with respect to any amounts under £100. That is to say, if an art union or lottery raises less than £100, no fee veil! be charged for the permit. I do not think that any hon. member will accept the statement ·of the Jwn. member for Ithaca. I am not going to say to one po1·son, " You are going to be taxed,'' and to another person, "You are not.''

Mr POLLOCK: The hon. member said that you ;~ill have the povter to do that.

Tlw ATTORNEY-GENERAL: The hon. m• mber said that I would not only have the power, but that I would use it that way.

:\lr. O'KEEFE: He must know you.

The ATTOH:\EY-GE='JERAL: He does not know me. I haye no intention of doing any such thing. The regulations will pre· scribe the fee, and they will apply to every· bodv. That is the common-sense way of look· in_g ~at the. athninistration of a reSponsible, sf'l£-ru~pectlng department .

ThE, hon. member also stated that this tax will be imposed by me on charity. I would ask him. '' \Yhat about the circumstances in connection with the permit obtained by the Townsville Labour { 'ounci! for the purpose of poor orphan~. '\Yhirh 1vas used b,· council to fttt'lncia~lv benefit itself'(" \\'hat. is the differenc~ in the matter'!

Nir. Ih:c;Es: You arc deliberately placing a rotten con:::trnct1on on that. That is a dj::-~hone:-;t construction.

The ATTORc-JEY-GE:\ERAL: The Tmnl'·ville Labour Council took advanhge c:: , ll art nnim1 to benefit. itccl£ financially undPr the gnisc of as~.ist:ing orphans.

TlL SI:CRETAHY FOR i\llXES: They ought to hang their heads in shame•.

The· ATTORNEY-GE:\ERAL: I proved on the occasion of the last debate that an art union granted for educational purposes WAs utilised bY a branch of the Australian L :bour Part;;· for the purpose of financing an C' lection.

:\Ir. O'K!mFE: That is misrepresentation.

Applinnts und~T Reiicf Srheme. [ll SEPTEMBER.] Abattoirs Agre.ment, Etc., Bill. 8!)5

The ATTOH.::'\EY-GENERAL: Did I not pwduco the balancc-sh.·nt of the very Aus­tralian Lauonr Party showi11g that the mane~· it receiYed for a specific purpcso 'vas utilised in another nwntllT, by pavinv. £20 into tlw Srat<' Pkc: ion fund and £10 into the Federal election fund,

~.lr. POLLOCK: \Vi!! you !BC that single in~tanc ,J E~s an argun1ent to deprive similar bodies of pcnnits?

The ATTOR:'\BY-GE)!ERAL: If hon. r11embors oppo:.ito c ~n show rnrr that the prO· c 0ds \\ill be uso<l for religiou,, charitable, )l' educational purpo,es, a permit will be granted. .Holl. l11Cinbers can also see how 1 _tsilv I v.-as convinced Lv the hon. rnember ;:or TownsYill and grantOd his reque~t, and l!Ow I \Yas treated sub:t•'{uently.

:\Ir. HY:NES (1'ou·ns·zlle): ]'.1r. Speaker, I ri•·"' to a point of order. Th<l hon. member j, deliberately misrepresenting what I said to him, and is misinterpreting correc,pond­ence. I-Ie is guilty of dishonest advocacy, 1nd of "snide" lawyer tactics.

The SPEAKEH : Order ! ::\1r. MAXWELL: Ho has got you in the bag,

wyhow. He has expo,ed your tactics. [9 p.m.]

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I want tu reit0ratc that, in my opinion and in the <'pinion of the Government, this matter must be properly controlled. No machinery exists aL present to enable that control to be exer­-cised ; but the terms and conditions of thi.3 Bill arc such as will enable art unions, etc., Ll be controlled properly.

Question-" That the Bill be now read a ,. cond time"-put and passed.

l'onsideration of the Bill in Committee . Pade an Order of the Day for to-morrow.

The Hon•,c adjourned at 9.1 p.nL