Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

THURSDAY, 9 SEPTEMBER 1965

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

370 Address in Reply [ASSEMBLY) Questions

THURSDAY, 9 SEPTEMBER, 1965

Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. D. E. Nicholson, Murrumba) read prayers and took the chair at 11 a.m.

ADDRESS IN REPLY

PRESENTATION

Mr. SPEAKER: I have to inform the House that I propose to present to His Excellency the Administrator. at Government

House, on Tuesday morning next at 10 o'clock, the Address in Reply to His Exceilency's Opening Speech agreed to on 7 September, and I shall be glad to be accompanied by the mover and the seconder and such other hon. members as care to be present.

QUESTIONS

THURSDAY ISLAND WATER SUPPLY.-Mr. Duggan, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Local Government,-

( 1) Has Thursday Island been without adequate water supplies for some months?

(2) From September 6 has water been running waste from the reservoir for alleged cleaning purposes?

( 3) Is a more acute water shortage likely? If so, can immediate steps be taken to remedy the position, what action is contemplated and when will it be effected?

Answers:-( I) "No." (2) "It is understood that a quantity

of water was lost through accident." (3) "Unless rain falls within the catch­

ment area it follows that the quantity of water stored will be reduced."

SALE OF SURPLUS RAILWAY STORES.­Mr. Aikens, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Transport,-

(!) Does the Railway Department se11 surplus or worn~out stores, equipment or other materials to the public and, if so, are there restrictions on the sale of any particular unwanted articles?

(2) If not, can condemned 26 inch by 12 inch air reservoirs (or receivers) be sold to the public at TownsviUe and under what terms or conditions?

Answers:-(!) "Yes. The Railway Department

does sell surplus or worn out stores and equipment to the public. Obsolete materials and scrap can also be purchased by employees, but in such cases the employee is required to make written application stating the price offered."

(2) "Condemned air reservoirs from steam locomotives have been sold only to employees who are fully aware of the reservoirs• condition in relation to require~ ments for pressure results. Enquiries reveal that there are no reservoirs of the various sizes available for sale at present. There is no reservoir of the size 26 inches by 12 inches. The size probably referred to is 2 feet 6 inches by 12 inches."

Questions (9 SEPTEMBER] Questions 371

VENEREAL DISEASE.-Mr. Aikens, pur~ suant to notice, asked The Minister for Health,-

In view of the many conflicting opinions expressed and the resultant confusion in the minds of the people on the subject, can venereal disease in any form be contracted in any other manner than by sexual inter~ course and, if so, what form or forms and in what other manner?

Answer:-"The main method of spread of syphilis

is by direct contact, that is, by sexual intercourse and occasionally kissing during the primary and secondary stages. Pre­natal infection may occur after the fourth month of pregnancy through placental transfer of the infectious agent while it has been known to occur occasionally through blood transfusion, Transmission through indirect contact with contaminated articles has been reported but this method is of little significance. Gonorrhoea is transmitted almost wholly by sexual inter­course. Gonococcal infection of the eye acquired during birth may occur in the newborn."

MOTOR VEHICLE DRIVING INSTRUCTION IN HIGH SCHOOLS.-Mr. Sherrington, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Educa~ tion,-

(1) Has his attention been directed to an article in the current issue of the Aus­tralian Road Safety Council magazine Report in which under the heading "Trained Drivers More Responsible" it claims that a New York study has con~ firmed that young drivers who took high school driver-education courses were more responsible than those who had not?

(2) Has any investigation been carried out as to whether it is possible to include driver-training as part of the curriculum of high schools or as an after-school course of instruction? If so, what are the diffi­culties or otherwise of its introduction? If not, has any serious thought been given to this question?

Answers:-(!) "Yes." (2) "Yes. As the Honourable Member

for Nudgee was informed in reply to a Question on September 1, 1965, my department is willing to co-operate with any organisation which is prepared to provide driver instruction outside normal school hours. With reference to the article in Report, it should be remembered that in several American States, including New York, the school leaving age is eighteen years. In Australia, where the leaving age is lower, large numbers of students leave school before attaining the minimum age for the issue of a driver's licence. In Queensland high schools only one in ten of the seventeen year age group and one in thirty of the eighteen year age group are still in attendance at school."

HOUSING CoMMISSION MAINTENANCE DEPOT, CARINA.-Mr. Newton, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Works,-

( 1) What is the number of employees attached to the Carina Queensland Housing Commission maintenance depot and what are their classifications?

(2) What is the number and the names of the projects maintained by this depot on the Southside?

( 3) What officers on these projects are responsible to receive complaints regarding general maintenance works such as elec­trical, drainage, repairs, &c.?

( 4) How often are State rental houses inspected either by estate officers or inspectors in order to see what maintenance is required on such houses?

Answers:-(1) "Foreman, 1; carpenters, 16;

plumbers, 5 (including 2 apprentices); builders' labourers, 2; clerks, 2. This depot is also the headquarters for certain plumbers, painters, drainers and builders' labourers who are engaged on new con­struction or maintenance in areas through­out Brisbane as the work requires from time to time."

(2) "Holland Park, Coorparoo, Mt. Gravatt, Acacia Ridge, Coopers Plains, Salisbury, Moorooka, Rocklea, Yeronga, Tarragindi, Ekibin, Wellers Hill, Carina. Belmont, Camp Hill, Seven Hills, Cannon Hill, Morningside, Murarrie, Wynnurn, Manly."

( 3) "Estate officers at Acacia Ridge, Carina, Mt. Gravatt and Holland Park; tenants may also report items requiring attention direct to the Maintenance Depot, Carina, or to the Commission's Head Office."

( 4) "Under his tenancy agreement it is the responsibility of each tenant to notify the Commission in writing of any repairs he considers necessarY. and inspec­tion is then made, A deta1Ied construc­tional inspection is made prior to repainting. Tenancy inspections are made periodically by estate officers as considered necessary."

SAND MINING OPERATIONS ON MORETON ISLAND.-Mr. Newton, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Mines,-

(!) Has the New South Wales Mineral Sands Company applied for a further lease of 510 acres on the Southern end of Moreton Island?

(2) If so, what k being done to (a) protect the forty residential sites already purchased from the Lands Department on which a number of houses have been con~ structed and other sites that may be released in this area, (b) see that the fishing g"rounds in this area are not inter­fered with in any way which could affect the livelihood of fishermen and (c) protect

372 Questions [ASSEMBLY] Questions

the beaches on this end of the Island which are used by fishing clubs and people who have an interest in this Section?

Answ£'rs:-(1) "N.S.W. Ruti1e Mining Company

Pty. Ltd. has so applied."

(2) .. (a) Residential sites are protected by section 10 of "The Mining on Private Land Acts, 1909 to !965." (b) and (c) The Governor in Council has power to set condiiions on all mineral leases, and these matters will be taken into consideration when such conditions are being considered."

SAFETY STANDARDS IN COAL MINING !NDUSTR'i{.-1\fr. Lickiss, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Mines,-

In view of recent fatal and serious acci~ dents in the underground coal mining .industry, particularly in mechanised mines, and in view of the high noise level associated with mechanised mining, is any review of safety standards contemplated to determine whether or not existing safe­guards for workers in this hazardous and essential industry are adequate?

Answer.·-

''AU underground coal mining accidents have been investigated and in no case has it been found that the noise associated with mechanised mining has prevented action being taken to avoid injuries incurred. It is considered the present rules under ~e Coal Mining Acts give adequate protection to persons working in coal mines. However, if at any time they are con­sidered deficient immediate action will be taken.''

ROAD\\.ORTHINESS CERTIFICATES FOR MoTOR VEHICLEs.-Mr. Melloy, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Labour and Industry,-

In view of the expressed opinion that many road accidents are due to mechanical faults and structural weaknesses of cars, will he consider the introduction of road­worthiness certificates for all cars, par* ticulariy those classed as used or second­band cars?

Answer:-"Quarterly statlstics for Queensland

issued by the Bureau of Census and Statistics indicate that the proportion of traffic accidents, which can be positively related to mechanical defects, varies between six (6) and seven (7) per cent. There is considerable conflict of opinion regarding the issue of roadworthiness cer­tificates for motor vehicles. Comprehensive investigations being carried out at present by the Chief Inspector of Machinery and Scaffolding and Weights and Measures, Mr. Hilless, have revealed that at least one major State in the Unite-d States of America has informed him that the method

of issuing such certificates must be the subject of the closest investigation. There had been instances where the application for a certificate of roadworthiness had been forwarded to the garage or the inspecting authority concerned by post, without presentation of the vehicle, and. further, there were also instances where graft had played a prominent part. In carrying out this comprehensive and inten­sive review, Mr. Hilless, who is also the Chief Safety Engineer for the State, is collating and examining a tremendous amount of data from the United Kingdom, United States of America, as well as Canada, and other States of Australia. It will take a considerable amount of time before Mr. Hilless can furnish me with a considered report. It is obvious from a cursory examination of the data being furnished that the most effective manner in which this problem can be approached is worrying all countries. In the meantime, however, Mr. Hilless is continuing to implement, to the greatest degree prac­ticable, snap inspections by his officers of used car dealers' premises, and it is known that the Police are continuing to maintain and, where possible, improve their snap inspections of motor vehicles on the road. The Honourable Member can rest assured that, in so far as this Government is concerned, all action pos­sible and practicable will be, and continue to be, taken to reduce the tragic toll of the road. As soon as I receive the considered comprehensive report from Mr. Hilless, the matter will receive nw immediate attention."

USE OF UNCLAIMED TA.B. DIVIDENDS. -Mr. Melloy, pursuant to notice, asked The Treasurer,-

As the Government receives unclaimed T.A.B. dividends which on the expiration of the required time limit for collection are paid into consolidated revenue, will he consider the suggestion by delegates to the Queensland Pensioners' League conference that portion of these unclaimed moneys be distributed to the Pensioners' League and other organisations of hard~pressed and under~privileged sections of the community?

Answer:-"Apart from what I have read in the

Press, I know of no such request. If it has been made as alleged, it has not come to my notice. However, I remind the Honourable Gentleman that old and invalid pensions are the responsibility of the Commonwealth Government. We do offer some aid in the provision and conduct of homes for aged persons and in rail con~ cessions. What we are doing at present would outweigh the amount of forfeited T.A.B. dividends many times. I can see no way in which the- Government can afford to add to what it is presently doing."

Questions [9 SEPTEMBER} Questions 373

APPO!NT\IE).IT OF ACTING SUPREME CouRT JuooE.-Mr. Bennett, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Justice,-

As the absence due to illness of the Acting Chief Justice may be for a pro­tracted period, wi11 he appoint an acting judge before the pressure of work causes further iliness among the members of the Supreme Court?

Answer:-''The answer is 'No'."

ALLEGATI0:-.1 OF EMBEZZLEMENT, MT. ISA STRIKE FUND.-Mr. Bennett, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Education,-

( 1) Has his attention been drawn to the claim made in Parliament yesterday by the Honourable Member for Aspley, Mr. Campbeil, to the effect that £6,000 had been embezzled by Pat Mackie from the Mt. Isa Strike Fund?

(2) Has this allegation ever been brought to the notice of the Company Squad or any other branch of the Police Department? If so, what action has the Police Commissioner taken to investigate the aUe2:ation and has Pat Mackie himself been interrogated? If not, why not?

(3) If the matter has not been brought to the notice of the Police Department, will he find out the sources of the Honourabie Member's information so that the allegation can be investigated?

( 4) What is the name -of the "certain" solicitor referred to?

(5) Is it suggested that lJe is in uny way involved?

Answers:-( 1) "I am aware of the speech made

by the Honourable Member for Aspley, Mr. Campbell, in the House on Tuesday last. I regard the Honourable Member for Aspley as a very responsible person, who informed the House as he did out of a sense of duty and in the public interest.''

(2) "Apart from the publicity given to the speech of the Honourable Member, the allegation has not been brought to the notice of the Company Squad or any other branch of the Police Department, so far as I am aware."

(3 to 5) "The Honourable Member can rest assured that this matter will not be allowed to remain in abeyance."

AUTHORITIES TO PROSPECT FOR COAL.­Mr. Donald, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Mines,-

(1) How many authorities to prospect for coal have been issued under Clause 33F of "The Coal Mining Acts, 1925 to 1964," since the Amending Act of 1964 came into operation on April 16, 1964?

(2) What are the names of persons or companies to whom such authorities have been granted showing (a) the areas within the terms of each authority, (b) the rental. terms and conditions of each authority; and (c) the periods during which each authority shall be in force?

Answers:-(!) "Fifteen."

(2) "The holders of these authorities are as follows:-lC.-The Barrier Reef Mineral Export Company Pty, Limited. ':'2C.-The Broken Hill Proprietary Corn~ pany Limited. 3C.-Thiess Peabody Mitsui Coal Pty. Ltd. *4C.-The Broken Hill Proprietary Company Limited. '"'5C.-Mount Morgan Limited. 6C.-Utah Development Company. ,;'7C.-C.R.A. Exploration Pty. Limited. *8C.-Mount Morgan Limited and Coal and Allied Industries Limited. 9C.-Thiess Bros. Pty. Limited. 10C.-Thiess Bros. Pty. Limited. llC.-Thiess Bros. Pty. Limited. 12C.­The Broken Hill Proprietary Company Limited. 13C.-Clntha Development Pty. Limited. 14C.-Clutha Development Pty. Limited. 15C.-Morgan Mining & Indus­trial Company Pty. Limited. Conditions of Authorities to Prospect are confidential and are therefore not published. I have here for the information of Members a map showing the areas held. (*No longer current.)"

UNPAID OVERTIME IN DEPARTMENTS.-Mr. Donald, notice, asked The Premier,-

GovERNMENT pursuant to

( 1) Has his attention been drawn to the statement which appeared in the official organ of the Queensland State Service Union headed "The Death Knell of Work­ing Conditions," stating that the attention of the union office has been drawn to the rather rampant use of unpaid overtime in many Government offices?

(2) If the union's contention is correct, will he take the necessary action to see that the pernicious practice is discontinued?

Answers:­(!) "Yes." (2) "I would like to make. it quite

clear that this Government does not countenance the working of unpaid over­time by any employee of a Government Department. The permanent heads charged with departmental administration are well aware of this attitude adopted by my Government"

ACCOMMODATION FOR .RAILWAY EMPLOYEES, HUGHENDEN.-Mr. Lonergan, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Transport,-

( 1) Is he aware that the cluster of sub­standard buildings now being used in Hugbenden as train-men's quarters are no longer acceptable by today's standards?

374 Questions [ASSEMBLY] Questions

( 2) In view of the Government's policy to improve the standard of accommodation for its employees, will he give an assurance that new quarters will be provided for train-men at Hughenden at an early date?

Answer:-( 1 and 2) "Consideration is at present

being given to the design of new quarters for train-men at Hughenden, and when such is settled plans and specifications will be prepared and the work put in hand."

WATERING FACILITIES, CHARTERS TOWERS TRUCKING YARDS.-Mr. Lonergan, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Lands,­

(1) Is he aware there is no watering facility in close proximity to the Charters Towers trucking yards?

(2) In view of the increasing importance of Charters Towers as a cattle-selling centre, will he provide this facility without any undue delay?

Answers:­(!) "Yes."

(2) "Because of the recent development of Charters Towers as a cattle-selling centre the Dalrymple Shire Council has arranged to discuss with the Superintendent of Stock Routes in the next few days the matter of the provision of a stock route watering facility at Charters Towers."

0EATU DUTIES ASSESSMENT BILL.-Mr. Murray, pursuant to notice, asked The Treasurer,-

( 1) Is he aware of a statement alleged to have been made by the Premier in the daily press to the effect that the Death Duties Assessment Bill is being redrafted and that the redrafted Bill will satisfy the many objections raised against the present proposal introduced in last Session '1

(2) Is this controversial Bill being redrafted?

(3) Who are the officers responsible for its redrafting and will he ensure if a redrafted Bill is introduced that sufficient time is allowed for the legal profession to study the new proposal prior to any Second reading Debate?

Answers:­(!) "Yes."

(2) "In the sense that there will be several amendments, yes."

(3) "All Parliamentary drafting is done by or under the supervision of the Parlia­mentary Draftsman, Mr. Seymour. How­ever, I remind the Honourable Gentleman that the procedure of introducing the Bill in the 1964-1965 session was to allow the public generally, including the legal profession, to study its proposals. They

did so and a great number of suggestions were received and studied. Arising from those suggestions, a number of amendments will be incorporated. Representations were received from three members of the Law Society, appointed by that Society to make submissions on behalf of that body. There were separate submissions from at least three other practising lawyers. I don't think it desirable to publish their names. As the amendments are reflective of representations which were made, I see no case for major delay but I would hope that the preparation and submission of the Bill will be possible in sufficient time to allow a good opportunity for study before its later stages."

HOUSING COMMISSION HOUSES, ROCK­HAMPTON.-Mr. Thackeray, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Works,-

( 1) How many Housing Commission homes at Rockhampton were (a) built for rental and (b) sold during each year from 1957 to 1965?

(2) How many applications are there for rental homes at Rockhampton and what are the points rating?

(3) How many successful applicants have obtained rental homes at Rockhamp­ton during the last financial year and what was the average waiting time and points rating of each applicant?

( 4) When will rental homes at Rock­hampton be constructed?

Answers:-(!)-

"Year Houses Houses New Houses Completed Sold Rented

1957-1958 .. 42 33 9 1958-1959 .. 47 47 .. 1959-1960 ..

3i 4 . i 1960-1961 .. 30

1961-1962 .. 25 30 .. 1962-1963 .. 7 10 .. 1963-1964 .. 15 19 .. 1964-1965 .. 11 19 ..

Totals .. 178 192 10 ''

(2) "Five with 100 points; three with 80 points; two with 60 points; thirty-one with 40 points and 145 of nil priority."

(3) "Sixteen applicants; the average time from lodgment of application was 22± months; three at 100 points, two at 80 points, three at 60 points, eight with 40 points.''

r 4} "A current contract provides for ten houSeS' Under guaranteed rental arrange­ments with the employer concerned."

DEVELOPMENT OF TOURIST RESORT, RABBIT IsLAND.-Mr. Graham, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Lands,-

Regarding the Special Lease . that has been granted to A. E. Armstrong for the development of Rabbit Island as a tourist

Questions [9 SEPTEMBER] Questions 375

resort, are the terms of lease being fulfilled and, if not, will he take such action as will allow other interested bodies to undertake the development of the area?

Answer:-"The special lease held by Alexander

Ewan Armstrong over part of Rabbit Island requires, inter alia, that before the end of this year, a tourist resort to the standards specified in the conditions of lease, be established and maintained on the leased land. Arising out of an official inspection carried out early this year, the lessee was given a final extension of time until the 31st December next, to corn~ mence construction. A further inspection will be made at the end of the year when consideration will be given as to what action should then be taken in the light of circumstances obtaining at that time."

REMUNBRATION PAYMENTS TO PRISONERS ON WACOL PRISON CONSTRUCTION.-Mr. Bromley, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Health,-

( I) Will he detail the schedule of gratuity payments credited to qualifying prisoners working on earthworks and con~ struction projects at Wacol including the security patients hospital for mentally-ill prisoners?

(2) Apart from the treatment of mentally-ill prisoners to be treated at Wacol, what other purpose will the hospital serve?

( 3) How many discharged prisoners who have worked on jail building projects have received gratuity payments since the initiation of the scheme?

Answers:-(1) "The remuneration payments credited

to prisoners working on earth works and construction projects at Wacol, including the Security Patients' Hospital, range from 3s. 6d. per day for leading hand tradesmen down to 1s. per day for learner-labourers in all classes."

(2) "Only prisoners requiring psychiatric treatment will be accommodated in the Wacol Security Patients' Hospital. Thls hospital is designed specially for the treat­ment of mentally ill prisoners in all phases of their illness, and provision is made for appropriate security."

(3) "The Comptroller-General of Prisons has advised me that the numbers are:-Brisbane Prison, 100 approximately; Wacol Prison, 52; Townsville Prison, 8."

EXPENDITIJRE ON EAST BRISBANE AND "BURANDA STATE SCHOOLS.-Mr. Bromley, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Education,-

How much money has been spent on (a) East Brisbane, (b) Buranda boys' and (c) Buranda girls' and infants' State schools in the financial year 1964-1965?

Answer:-"Details respecting expenditure at any

particular school during the 1964~1965 financial year are not readily available at present and it will be some time before these statistics can be furnished. However, if required, information regarding expendi~ ture during any previous financial period could be supplied.''

EDUCATION STANDARD AT MITCHELL RIVER MISSION SCHOOL.-Mr. Wallis-Sroith, pur~ suant to notice, asked The Minister for Education,-

( 1 ) What grades are being taught at the Mitchell River Mission school?

(2) How many children attend it?

( 3) Does he intend to take over educa­tion at the Mission as previously requested by the Mission authorities? If not, will he consider making recommendations with a view to progressively improving the stan~ dard of education in Mission schools?

Answers:-( 1) "Five grades are taught in the

Mitchell River Mission school, designated as Kindergarten and Grades I to IV, with Domestic Science tuition also."

(2) "Latest available figures as at June 30, 1965, are 121 children in the Kinder~ garten and graded classes."

(3) "Recently the Bishop of Carpentaria indicated a desire to retain control of the Anglican Mission in his diocese, and I feel everything possible at present is being done by the Mission authorities to provide for the educational and material well-being of the people consistent with their progressive development. However, the position will be reviewed regularly and the Government, in close co-operation with Mission authoriM ties, will continue to observe progress closely and provide for improving standards as circumstances, from time to time, warrant or permit."

SIXMDAY MILK DELIVERY, CAIRNS AREA.­Mr. R. Jones, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Primary Industries,-

( 1) As a 99 · 5 per centum poll was returned by the milk consuming public of Cairns for the provision of a six-day delivery. will he seek the co-operation of the Atherton Tableland Butter Association ( Malanda Milk) with the Queensland retail Milk Vendors Association in order to meet the demand of the customers as expediti­ously as possible?

(2) If the co-operation is not forth­coming, will he take the necessary steps to have an Order in Council invoked so as to ensure that the wishes of the milk con­sumers in the Cairns area are met?

376 Form of Questions [ASSEMBLY] Personal Explanations

Answers:-(1) "I am aware of the situation which

exists regarding the desire of the Retail Milk Vendors Association for a six~day milk delivery in Cairns. Now that the consumers' position has been made clear, the matter is one which should be worked out through co~operation between the sup~ plying factory and the milk vendors. I will certainly use my best offices in an endeavour to ensure that an acceptable solution is reached."

(2) "Any necessity for further action should not arise if the parties concerned adopt a reasonable approach to the problem."

RESIDENT MEDICAL OFFICERS, CAIRNS BAsE HosPITAL.-Mr. R. Jones, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Health,-

( 1) How many days per week are resi~ dent medical officers at the Cairns Base Hospital rostered off duty and clear to leave hospital precincts?

(2) Does a seven-day week roster operate for resident medical officers at present?

(3) Are doctors required to remain "on call" for all five sections of the Cairns Base Hospital at twenty-four hour stretches at least four times per week'?

Answers:-(! and 2) "At present, on an average,

each resident medical officer has one half-day off per week, plus three week-ends off in every five."

(3) "No."

PAPER The following paper was laid on the

table:-Order in Council under The State Develop­

ment and Public Works Organisation Acts, 1938 to 1964.

FORM OF QUESTIONS

Mr. AIKENS (Townsville South) having given notice of a question-

Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The latter part of the hon. member's question is grossly out of order; it seeks an expression of opinion.

Mr. BR0l\1LEY (Norman) proceeding to give notice of a question-

:Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The hon. member has no occasion to preface his question with a comment. If he persists in that practice I shall disallow the question.

M:r. :SRO:MLEY: I was only following Murray's dirty question.

Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I did not hear the hon. member's remark. I have asked him not to comment when asking a question. If he wishes to ask a question, he should do so without other comment; otherwise, I shaH disallow the question.

PERSONAL EXPLANATIONS

Mr. llENNI!lTT (South Brisbane) (11.39 a.m.), by leave: During the course of yester­day's debate on on-the-spot traffic fines the hon. member fo-r Nundah said-

"! have only to look at the 1960 debate to find that the hon. member for South Brisbane spoke in favour of the principle­involved in on-the-spot fines. At page 1910 of 'Hansard' he said-

'I should say it is not unusual to see 40 traffic policemen hanging round out­side the Traffic Court-against their will, incidentally-waiting for their cases to be dealt with. o-r to be referred to. or to be called On in court.' .,

The hon. member went on to say, "He was in favour of the system on that occasion.''

At that stage, Mr. Speaker. you will remember that I rose to a point of order and objected to the hon. member's remarks because the claim that I supported the principle was no-t true. After you had accepted my explanation, the hon. member retorted-

" I do not accept the explanation give·n by the hon. member. I do not intend to quote him in full, but he was in favour of the principle on the ground that it would release policemen for other duties. The hon. member for South Brisbane has not spoken in this debate. I do not know whether he intends to do so.''

So that this House will not be misled or deceived, I think it is only fair that when reference is made to a previous speech the full reference should be given. The speech referred to by the hon. member for Nundah is cont-ained--

Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I trust that the hon. member is not going to read his whole speech but merely the relevant portion.

Mr. BENNETT: Just the relevant portion. It appears in "Hansard'', Vol. 228, at page 1910, 29 November, 1960. I went on to say-

"The Minister may say that that is the purpose of the amendment in adopting the system of owner-onus-pay-as-you-go. as it were-that the amendme·nt will relieve them of the obligation to appear in court. To that extent the argument is plausible, but I feel that even for trivial offence·s the owner-onus system is not a good thing. What is more, it does not apprehend the persistent offender. If there is a persistent offender even in trivial offences, he should be dealt with suitably in a court of law; he should be given the opportunity of putting his case to the court and then, depending on what the court thinks after having heard the evidence from both sides, properly dealt with.

"The persistent offender under the propose'(} Bill-and in this it is somewhat unusual-will be around daily to :fl·out the

Personal Explanations (9 SEPTEMBER) Personal Explanations 377

law and pay a £1 fine, or perhaps a £2 fine, and it should not be forgotten that some people who are endowed with much of this world's goods will not regard a £1 or £2 fine as anything worth worrying about. They will say, 'It is worth the risk; on many occasions we won't be caught, so we: will endeavour to defeat the law know~ ing that we will never be dealt with as persistent offenders.'

"In effect, this provision puts the power of the court in the hands -of the police. I feel that in many ways the Minister is look~ ing upon the proposed amendment as a cheap form of taxation. As the hon. mem-ber for Brisbane has said, people have already become accustomed ~o receiving their £1 tickets for parking~meter offences and it is, unobtrusively and quietly returning hundreds of thousands of pounds annually. If the system is extended to moving vehicles, the fortune that will be obtained by the Traffic Branch from on~the~road fines will be tremendous.

"Experience has proved that, if tempta~ tion is placed in the way of certain people, a proportion, perhaps a small proportion, will succumb to it. In other places and other countries of the world an iniquitous practice has crept in with the introduction of the system of owne·r~onus or highway fines."

Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I think the hon. member for South Brisbane has made the point of his objection. I do Dot want him to read any more.

Mr. BENNETT: I accept your ruling, Mr. Speaker. I think you have been perfectly reasonable and fair. I will not read any further. I will conclude with the final observation that it is easy to misrepresent a person by quoting one sentence out of a speech. It was completely wrong, dishonest and improper for the hon. member to claim that I supported· the principle when my speech obviously indicated that I did not. I feel that the hon. member for Nundah plumbed the depths of dishonesty in saying--

Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The hon. member is not in order in referring to the hon. member for N undah as dishonest. I ask him to withdraw that remark.

Mr. BENNETT: I did not say he was dis­honest. I said that in that claim he was plumbing the depths of dishonesty. However, if it is regarded as offensive-! should say it is only proper that the hon. member should quote me accurately.

Mr. AIKENS: I ask leave of the House to make a personal explanation.

Mr. SPEAKER! Order! Before seeking leave of the House for the hon. member to make a personal explanation, I must comment that it would appear that when one hon. member seeks leave to make a personal explanation it results in a chain reaction.

Mr. AIKENS: This is an entirely different matter.

Mr. SPEAKER: I was going to warn the hon. member that If it is associated with the other two or three personal explanations that have been made I shall rule it out of order on the ground that it is prosecuting a quarrel.

Mr. AIKENS (Townsville South) (11.45 a.m.), by leave: I assure you, Mr. Speaker, that this has nothing to do with anything that has been said by any other hon. member in the form of a personal explanation. To be quite candid, I would not pay those other hon. members that compliment.

Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The bon. member has a personal explanation?

Mr. AIKENS: In the Minister's answer to my question this morning with regard to the sale of air reservoirs and containers by the Railway Department--

Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The hon. member is debating a question, which is out of order.

Mr. Bennett: Why don't you learn the rules?

Mr. SPEAKER: Order!

Mr. AIKENS: Fancy that coming from him, of all people!

The Minister's answer cast a very grave reflection on me both as a member of Parliament and as a former engineman of considerable experience and outstanding ability. (Laughter.)

Mr. SPEAKER: Order!

Mr. AIKENS~ The Minister said, "There is no reservoir of the size 26 inches by 12 inches."

Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The hon. member is again commencing to debate a question.

.Mr. AIKENS: I will quote now from a letter written on 7 January, 1965, by the General Manager of the Railway Depart· ment at Townsville.

Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I cannot allow the hon. member to quote from a letter.

Mr. AIKENS: The General Manager specifically said--

lVIr. SPEAKER: Orderl The hon member is not making a personal explanation. He is attempting to quote from a letter in support of his argument against an answer to a question. He is therefore debating the question.

Mr. AIKENS: I conclude by saying that the advisers to the Minister for Transport do not know what they are talking a'bout. As a former engine-man--

Mr. SPEAKER: Order!

Mr. CHALK: I ask leave of the House to make a personal explanation.

378 Beef Roads Scheme [ASSEMBLY] Beef Roads Scheme

Mr. SPEAKER: Order! If it relates to the argument just advanced by the hon. member for Townsville South, I do not believe that matter requires any further explanation.

Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr. SPEAKER: Order! Once again, it will be prosecuting a quarrel. It will also be debating a question furth-er, which is entirely out of order.

BEEF ROADS SCHEME

Mr. RAE (Gregory) (11.47 a.m.): I move-''That this Parliament acknowledges witrh

gratitude the financial and advisory assist­ance rendered by the Commonwealth Government to the implementation of the Beef Roads Scheme in Queensland and, recognising the benefits derived by the pastoral industry from such roads either completed or under construction, urges upon the Commonwealth continued support of the Queensland Government's intention to provide further all·road transportation for the quick and safe movement of cattle from isolated regions to railhead, market and fattening areas."

I am quite certain that all hon. mem'bers in the Assembly will agree that over the years we have had ample evidence to indicate that there have been royal commissions, sub­missions, recommendatiDns and various schemes, all endeavouring to have the Federal authorities and our own people join hands in some responsible way to implement a roads scheme to open up Queensland. However it was no-t until 5 April, 1961, that ou; Co-ordinator-General of Public Works, Sir James Holt, and the Commissioner for Main Roads Mr. Barton, met men of authority in Canberra to discuss a proposed programme for beef cattle roads in Queensland. They formed a plan which they thought might be of interest to the State House for the develop­ment of the State generally. As a result of these discussions the State was requested to determine-

(!) the roads which should be developed and their relative priorities;

{2) The approximate costs;

{3) The stage of plan·ning;

(4) How quickly the work could commence;

(5) The standards of construction;

(6) The rates of expenditures.

Further discussions surrounding this project between State and Commonwealth repre~ sentatives were held in Brisbane on 22 May, 1961, and it was agreed that priority should be given to the roads in the Gulf and Channel Country areas, and that first priority should be given to the Julia Creek-Normanton road and the Georgetown-Mt. Surprise road. Those two roads will be discussed in more detail by my colieague the hon. member for Flinders, who wiH second this motion. He

knows that area very well, and realises what a tremendous step in the right direction these roads are for the handling of stock and the development of that part of the State.

I shall confin·e my remarks to the Channel Country and the roads from Quilpie to Windorah, Winton to Boulia, Boulia to Dajarra, and Dajarra to Mt. Isa. Unless we can colUlect those roads, the Beef Roads Scheme will possibly not be the success it should be.

The Beef Cattle Roads Agreement Act of 1962, which was subsequently approved by the Queensland Parliament, combined the £5,000,000 grant and the £3,300,000 loan and provided that the Commonwealth would make available £8,300,000 for beef roads­£1,700,000 to be a free grant and the balance of £6,600,000 a loan, one half of which would be repayable by the State over 15 years. This approach, I might add, greatly simplified the accounting procedures for the State as we had then arranged for funds running into £9,366,000 to construct these mads.

These figures are rather interesting. I shall refer firstly to the Dajarra-Boulia road. I have driven over it and have seen it for myself. It is an excellent job. Unfortunately, the contractors who built it suffered financial losses.

Mr. Hanson: They were not given a fair go.

Mr. RAE; There would be no way in the world that they would not be given a fair go. We have eminent consulting engineers who survey these matters, and they go into a full consideration of all matters to establish that the roads can be built at a certain price, or at a reasonable tender. If, according to their statements, those tremendous losses are being incurred, theTe is obviously something; wrong with those people and the way theY handle their affairs.

It is not for me to say where the blame lies, but I would suggest a lack of knowledge of the area for a start. I do not think they would have carried out a careful and thorough research into the area in which this job was to be carried out. Another possible reason is the lack of engineers trained for this type of country. They are all very important points. The Main Roads Department and its employees have done a remarkably good job under the Beef Roads Scheme. In Winton recently Mr. Kevin Kerr. the District Engineer, Mr. John Hill and I discussed the whole Beef Roads Scheme. I had them to help and advise me, and I should like to record my appreciation of their interest in the entire project. I was ahle to see it for myself and learn from them at first hand what is required, how the money is being spent, and how progress is being made along lines that we aJI hope will result in tremendous savings to the people in western areas.

One of the first questions that I asked these men concerned labour. I asked where they obtained workers and if they were hard

Beef Roads Scheme [9 SEPTEMBER] Beef Roads Scheme 379

to get. I was told that at times there are up to 100 men employed, and at other times 20, or even fewer. Fortunately they have a hard core of competent, practical men, such as grader drivers and bulldozer and machinery operators, to rely on. The first 7 miles of the road from Winton to Boulia was completed for a little over £10,000 a mile, which is a very low figure. I mentioned that point in speaking to Mr. Lowe, Deputy Commissioner of Main Roads, and he was inclined to query it, but from the figures supplied to me I understand that that was the actual cost. I have reason to believe that possibly it did not include expenditure on bridges and culverts. It is quite clear to most of us who have lived in this area and made some study of the Beef Roads Scheme that the costs involved will be considerably higher than the original figures.

Mr. Bennett: Don't you agree that Mr. McEwen claims most of the credit for the Beef Roads Scheme?

Mr. RAE: Yes, and he has done a very fine job.

In the first stages an expenditure of £22,000,000 was expected. Already about 300 miles have been completed and sealed and an expenditure of approximately £3,000,000 has been incurred in this area alone. This demonstrates that big money is involved in a project that will be rewarding in many ways to the State and the people who live there.

I should now like to discuss the conditions under which work is being carried out by the Main Roads Department in the Winton area. The road itself is quite good, being 12 feet wide and sealed. In the early stages it was reasonably easy to obtain the gravel, screenings, and other material required for good road construction. The soil lends itself to compaction, and the road has extended approximately 51 miles towards Middleton. One thing that attracted my attention on the job was the hous­ing provided for employees of the Main Roads Department and that made avail­able by K.L.K. Constructions Ltd. and possibly other contractors, although I saw only that of K.LK. The quarters of Main Roads Department employees are prefabricated cottages which are quite comfortable and of a satisfactory standard. A form of flyscreening has been provided recently, which will make a very big difference to the comfort of the employees in what is a rather hot part of Queens~ land. I noticed, too, that every second day a rations lorry had to go into Winton for food and vegetables because no refrigeration was available at the camp. With the summer coming, I think the Minister could well consider providing refrigeration for the men working on the construction of the Winton~Boulia Road, or for that matter any other road in that part of Queensland. In this time and age refrigeration is essential.

I then went to see the accommodation provided by K.L.K., which is a fairly active firm and has some really remarkable equipment. Its employees are all housed in caravans, and electric light and sewe•rage are provided. In fact, the difference between the facilities provided by K.L.K. Construc­tions Limited and those provided by the Main Roads Department is rather startling. K.L.K's. employees are provided with hot and cold water, and the set·up for over­hauling the firm's lorries and tractors has to be seen to be believed. Its top engineers and mechanics working on the job are very highly paid and very skilful. and it is possible for them to overhaul on the spot any of the machinery used in construction work. That seemed to me to be a great advantage, because repairs of any significance to machinery owned by the Main Roads Depart­ment have to be effected in Winton, and if a complete overha~1l is required the work has to be done in Rockhampton. I am not going to enter into an argument about which way it should be done, because, while the Main Roads Department is building roads at a reasonable price, private contractors who are providing additional amenities for their employees contend that they are losing a good deal of money.

I cannot comprehend how a company can afford to lose £100,000, £200,000, or £300,000, as A. H. Hodge & Sons and K.L.K. Constructions Limited say they have, and still continue in business. No matter from whom I inquired, no·one could tell me just how the money was lost. Some said, "We didn't tender sufficiently high"; others said, "Our equipment is not up to standard", or, "We have too far to go for our gravel", or, "We have water problems." It seems to me that £300,000 is a tremendous amount of money for companies to lose on sealing roads. Lightheartedly, one engineer said to me, "What we lose on this one we pick up on the next." I hope they do, because they could not go on losing money at that rate and stay in business.

Mr. Waliis-Smith: Do they provide refrigeration?

Mr. RAE: Yes, they provide refrigeration. They have an excellent set-up, and they look after their employees very well.

Mr. Tucker: Would there not be a depart­mental estimate against which their tender price could be checked?

Mr. RAE: I believe they are negotiating with the department and discussing the matter in an attempt to iron out some of their problems. It is quite obvious to me-and to them, I am sure-that the reason for it has been scanty knowledge of the area in the first place. When they really investigated the area and discovered where the screenings and gravel were, they had more idea of costs before submitting their tenders. That trouble arose as a result of some lack of knowledge by their engineers in these areas.

380 Beef Roads Scheme [ASSEMBLY] Beef Roads Scheme

:Mr. Tucker: Couldn't this do us some damage with other contractors if these huge losses were reported?

Mr. RAE: It possibly would, but 1 can assure the hon. member that such a thing will not be happening again, because research and the positive knowledge they are acquiring of these areas before tendering make·s them au fait with the job and they will not again be submitting such low tenders.

This matter has 'been worrying Main Roads Department officials, because they have had to re-estimate all the jobs. Where they had plans in the first place for an overall £9,000,000 job, it is now up to £13,500,000, an extra £4,500,000. Taking into consideration the present spiral that seems to be associated with the cost of road building generally, mainly through the cost of machinery and wages, it is expected that it will be a good deal more than that in the future. However, I am not coming into that argument except to say that it must be a tremendous worry to the Main Roads Department, and its officers are constantly watching and checking on it.

Now Jet us look at the tremendous benefits that can be derived from the building of these roads. I should say that anybody who knows -the Channel Country or has any idea of that vast area, which goes under water at times of good flood, would know that nowhere else in the world can it be matched as a natural fattening area for stock. It is quite reliable and the various grasses it grows have exceptional nutritional qualities. No-one can cultivate grasses today thaJt will give the same result over a given period as the natural grasses on this country in a good season. There is native sorghum, pepper and Flinders grass, Mitchell grass, as well as herbage such as tah vine and potato vine, and, in extra good seasons, there is clover, which Js excellent, as is also the yellowtop. It is truly remarkable how quickly cattle can be turned off these areas. Droving, which has been part of the re-stock­ing plan of that area for so long, is fading from the scene.

Today, with the new concept of moving stock, we are able to bring cattle down 400 to 500 miles from the Gulf, but whereas they used to be on the road for weeks and months on end, today they are brought down in a matter of days. When they get into this natural fattening Channel Country it is now only a matter o-f five to se·ven months before they are prime fat cattle and can be sent away to market. That is because they are not weary from walking, their hooves are in good condition and they can get straight into feeding and putting on condition. In the old days, through long walks, they became very tired. Even if the country was lush, the grass green and all other conditions favourable, the cattle

were so tired that they did not start to put on condition for maybe three to five months after being let go in the Channel Country.

I could be wrong, but I have the idea that the new method of transporting stock in the Channel Country was first introduced by the Collins White Company who O'iYn Marion Downs and Monkira.

Mr. Duggan: They discussed TOJ.d trains with me many years ago.

Mr. RAE: I have seen their wad trains in operation. It is a remarkable set-up. This new system of transporting stock has to be seen to be believed. In the old days drovers had very slow~mo-ving plant. Time was really no object With this modem method of ge-tting the job done up to 100 head of catt'le can be transported in one lorry train. These men can shift 14 K. wagons at a time, which is a tremendous achievement. They transport cattle from Marion Downs into Quilpie or Winton-wherever the market attracts-in 26 to 28 hours.

Mr. Hughes: What would you say this has meant to the economy of the country?

Mr. RAE: I do not think it could be accurately valued. It must be a tremendous lift. When the Marion Downs Pastoral Company first used this mode of transporting stock, the manager, Mr. Ma:guire, whom I know quite well, fought very strongly against it. He said that in all his time as a cattle man he had never heard of anybody making a success of handling large mobs by lorries. I understand that he fought his directors over the wisdom of the idea and against the heavy expenditure that was necessary for the purchase of the lorries. However, they won the day. In Mr. Maguire we ·have a practical man who now says that no other method of trans~ porting stock is even consirlered by the Collins White company. The idea has snow~ balled throughout many other companies in the area. It certainly sounded the death kndl of the droving of large mobs. I venture to say that that is now a thing of the past.

Many people in the natural fattening areas of the Channel Country have been running breeders as well as bullocks. I feel that that area should be kept for fattening bullocks, not that I should interfere with their manage~ ment. We should encourage people in the North to provide store cattle for fattening in the Channel Country. the brigalow areas and other parts of Queensland which are developing so rapidly. Because of our need to get store bullocks some encouragement should be given to the men who are breeding them. To that end I would suggest that the Commonwealth Government allow, say, a

Beef Roads Scheme {9 SEPTEMBER] Beef Roads Scheme 381

5 per cent. tax concession on the sale of all male cattle from an area bounded by a fixed latitude and longi-tude. Even today there are many 1arrge properties from which, because of the retarding effect of taxation, only a certain number of cattle are sold. If an incentive were given to encourage the turn·off of male store cattle, I am sure it would be of great benefit to the industry generally. There is a world shortage of beef. If anything, the demand will increase rather than decrease because of the increasing popu­lation and the fact that people are becoming more beef minded. There is certainly a tremendous future for the sale of beef.

Mr. Hugbes: Do you think they should put these tax rebates back into their properties?

Mr. RAE: Yes. I think they should be encouraged in some way to manage their proper.ties so that they turn off lar_ge numbers of male cattle. That is the important point. At present, it costs 6s. a K·wagon mile to freight cattle from this area. That is a very reasonable rate; it works out at 3-td. a head, per mile, for an average mob,

Even in this adverse year 37,000 head of cattle have passed through Winton and about 45,000 head through Quilpie. In some good years the number has been as high as 70,000 for Winton and about the same for Quilpie. A mad scheme will enable the people in these areas to avail themselves of three selling points, namely, Townsville, Rockhampton and Brisbane. It would be quite wrong to say to them, "You cannot sell in other places." These men must have the right to sell anywhere. Someone suggested to me that our cattle might go over the border. I think ~hat even now about 80,000 head go to New South Wales every year. That wiU always be the case, and many of our Queensland cattle go to Victoria. That should not worry us at alL The important factor is that these roads wan provide ~he means to open up all this country. They Wtll provide far grea.ter competition from buyers and meatworks representatives who will be able to avail themselves of the southern markets. People from tile South will offer rates equally as attractive as those offered by the buyers from Rockhampton, Townsville and Brisbane. You cannot beat competition.

It was deplorable for me to read that a man representing the Townsville Chamber of Commerce-! think his name was Jacobs­wrote to Mr. Adermann registering his disapproval of the Beef Roads Scheme. He seemed to think that if it was proceeded with it would take away all the cattle from Townsville, Rockhampton and Brisbane. Surely if we have any method of supplying topMquality beef direct to any of those points the prices will be paid and everybody benefits: especially people at those particular points. Once there is mention of the development of the Far West, there are claims by many commercial organisations in the large coastal towns that section 92 of the Commonwealth Constitution will permit more interstate

trading. I do not think that has any relevant bearing on the problem, and I do not think it would worry them very much.

Mr. Campbell: They would not worry about the inland road through Bourke.

Mr. UAE: No. I do not thin..!{ there will be any great wony at alL If the market is better in the South, go then.~; if it is good enough in Queensland, stay here. Nobody can convince me that there will not continue to be the same 2.mount of interstate trading from our northern or coastal markets.

This is a tremendous scheme. It is the greatest single incentive that has been offered to development in this State. I am certain that I am joined in that regard by many people who have given full consideration to and have studied the scheme. There is no other way in which we could do as much for the development of the West.

Mr. CampbeJJ: It has already produced dramatic results.

Mr. RAE: It has indeed, and K can assure the House that if we have a favourable season there will be a tremendous movement of cattle.

I have here a map provided by the Deputy Commissioner of Main Roads, whom I thank for his interest. We already have a road from Quilpie to Windorah. That is shown in red on the map. 1t is a completed road, 157 miles long. The road has been surveyed between Windorah and Currawilla; the line along which it will go has been established. I have not been there. Spelling yards, trucking yards, and water facilities for handling cattle are already established at Currawilla. The scheme is to cross the Diamantina River and proceed to Bedourie, then north on the western side of the Georgina River, across the Georgina River, and up to Boulia. I cannot see the sense in that particular move because at Boulia there is already a magnificent crossing over the Burke River.

Work will be carried out on the Boulia·Winton road, and a first--class crossing of the Hamilton River is already established on that road. I suggest that the road leave the Boulia-Winton road and proceed to Slashers Creek on the eastern side of the Hamilton River, then to Springvale Station, or close to it, and then cut across the Diamantina River at the best possible point, namely, Diamantina Lakes. At the point suggested, farther down and west of CurraM willa, the river is up to 30 miles wide in big floods, and I cannot imagine any manner of road construction to cope with that. At Diamantina Lakes, even at its worst it could be crossed. That is a practical crossing place at Diamantina Lakes and then the road would have to go to a point somewhere well east of the Diarnantina. The country along the river is so flat that there would

382 Beef Roads Scheme [ASSEMBLY] Beef Roads Scheme

be great difficulties in obtaining gravel and screenings for road construction. I cannot see why a road should be put around as planned which would be, as it were, a perimeter road because there are few cattle there. Kameron Downs would be about the last property west of that route. By this route that I now indicate the road would pass through the centre of the country where all the cattle are. Davenport Downs, Marion Downs, Coorabulka, Ciuny, Tanbar and Monkira, are all in that area.

I suggest that another set of yards be established at Diamantina Lakes and, with yards at CurrawilJa and Diamantina Lakes, the council would be able to build a road which would be the ordinary graded road. I feel that that would do much to reduce the expenditure that will be involved. Following the route that I suggest would mean that the road would be. 40 miles shorter which, at £17,000 a mde, would effect the considerable saving of over £600,000.

(Time, on motion of Mr. V. E. Jones, extended.)

Mr. RAE: I thank the hon. member for Ca11ide for making extra time available to !Tie to CO!ltinue _with my story, because it 1s a very mterestmg one.

Whilst I still have my map before me­

M:r. Bennett: Did you draw it yourself?

Mr. RAE: Yes. I bet it is more than the hon. member for South Bdsbane could do.

Here is another important part of this roa?s scheme. Quit~ a number of large statwns-Airoy, Headmgly, A van, Alexandria and Rockhampton Downs-extend from the ~rea that I now indicate to the Gulf and mto the Northern Territory. Already they are ma!drw use of this formed road, which makes 1t Important that the Mt. Isa-Dajarra sec~ion be completed. Such a recommen­datiOn would have a lot of merit and I earn~stly . ask t~e Minister t9 give full con.sideratwn to It. I would disregard this penmeter set-up completely; I feel that it is a tremendous waste of money.

.Here we have another problem, which brmgs me to the Boulia-Winton road. The solid red line indicates the portion that has been completed and bitumen-sealed. It is 12 feet wide, and is a perfect road as is the road from Quilpie to Windorah. 'The dotted red lines indicate portions of the road that wilJ be completed in the next six to 12 months.

There are very big problems to be faced from the boundary of "Lucknow" to Boulia. According to t11e engineers with whom I dis­~ussed the matter, one of the main problems 1s that no gravel or screenings are readily available and they will have to be carted for many miles-up to 20 or 25 mlles. In addition, no water is available, and the prob­lem is so acute that K.L.K. Constructions

Limited have had to bring water through a 3-inch pipe up to 9 or 10 miles along the roads. The cost of doing this is very high, because large quantities of water are needed. If the work is to be carried out properly, I believe that the Co-ordinating Board­and the Government generally-will have to give special consideration to providing bores at one or two points.

I draw the attention of hon. members to Woodstock on this map. Although the remainder of the road is relatively flat, in the Woodstock area there are very deep gullies and sharp twists and turns. The men who are using the road for the transport of cattle say that this very rough portion is responsible for the large amount of bruising that is found on the cattle. Bruising is a matter of great importance, and, as hon. members can imagine, it was even more prevalent before the beef roads were built. I should not like to say what the percentage was previously, but it is estimated that it has been reduced by 15 per cent. with the introduction of road transport. It is claimed that if the Woodstock portion of the road was completed, bruising would be reduced to about 8 or 9 per cent. The cattle in the area are fatte-ned naturally and the meat is of the high quality that is attractive to markets overseas. This fact supports the contention that the completion of the Wood­stock section of the road is important.

Mr. Wallis..Smith: What percentage of bruising would there be in other parts of that country?

Mr. RAE: I understand that it was a little over 15 per cent. The percentage would be similar. That figure was given to me by men who use the road to transport cattle. It was supplied to them, I imagine, by the meat buyers.

It is necessary, too, to provide spe1ling areas. It has been established that cattle should travel for no more than 12 or 15 hours at a stretch without being spelled.

Mr. Armstrong: How many miles would that be?

Mr. RAE: It all depends on the type of road. On some roads one could travel hundreds of miles in that time. I should say that cattle would be brought in non-stop from Mar,ion Downs to Quilpie, which is 234 miles. As I have said, a great deal of trouble has been experienced with the Woodstock crossing. That is due to the very sharp gulleys on these roads, which tend to throw cattle down. But they travel e'Xtremely well and at fast speeds.

I have been asked by way of interjection how many miles of the Beef Roads Scheme have already been completed in my area. 'J1here are over 300 miles biturninised at present and it is very heartening to know that Cabinet and the Government of Queens­land are keenly backing the scheme and that plans are in hand for another 300 miles.

Beef Roads Scheme [9 SEPTEMBER] Beef Roads Scheme 383

1 ms knowledge must have a tremendously uplifting effect on the people living in these parts of the State. I do not know of any scheme that has done more for Queensland than has this Beef Roads plan.

Mr. Aikens: The scheme wiiJ add tre­mendously to the national wealth.

1\:lr. RAE: I quite agree. I was very pleased that the Premier,

wishing to see the scheme and discuss it ;vith the personnel associated with it, came out to the area with me. He had a very informative tour and learned quite a lot .about the movement of cattle in the area and the men who work them. The authorities have been very generous with funds for this excellent scheme but I urge them to keep on with the idea until its final conclusion because I am certain that no other undertaking in Australia will be nearly as beneficial.

1 feel that I have dwelt on the matter long enough and I ask my colleague the hon. member for Flinders to support me. Mr. l..onergan knows much of this area and T 2m certain he will have an interesting story to tell.

:\lr. LO:\IERGAN (Flinders) (12.38 p.m.): I am very happy to second the motion moved so ably by the hon. member for Gregory. He is very capable, and there would not be one member of this House with a greater knowledge of the Outback. He is very keen and has been all over the area, and I .commend him for the manner in which he dealt with his subject. I am quite sure his remarks were listened to with keen interest by everyone.

The hon. member inc-orporated in his motion that this Parliament acknowledges with gratitude the financial and advisory assistance rendered by the Commonwealth Government to the implementation of the Beef Roads Scheme in Queensland, but not -only the Parliament of Queensland appre~ c:iates the action of the Federal Government. Everybody who takes an interest in Queens~ Jand must appreciate what the Federal Government, working in co-operation with the State Government, has done for the Out­tack.

I can speak with some knowledge of this subject. I am fortunate in having about 90 miles of beef roads in my area-part of the road between Julia Creek and NormanM ton. Already these roads have made a big impact on the towns they feed into. Possibly Dne reason could be that there are so many men working on the beef roads, bllt the main factor is that there are now a couple of large haulier organisations that are kept busy moving stock along the road. It is \VOrth going a long way to see their modern units.

I comn1end the FederaJ Government for what it has done. Let us cast our minds back and ask what the Australian Labour Party did when it was in power.

1\:Ir. Bennett: Don't start getting dirty.

Mr. LONERGAN: I am not getting dirty. We have been wrongly accused of not being interested in the people of the Outback. Both the Federal Government and this Government have proved their interest in ~hose people. But for the beef roads, losses m the present drought would have been astronomical. It is not uncommon to travel 60 miles without seeing any grass at all. Imagine sheep or cattle travelling on foot in that country!

Mr. Bennett: Why hasn't the Railway Department done something about it?

Mr. LONERGAN: These are. feeder roads, feeding in to the railway.

When the scheme was first mooted it attracted a great deal of criticism. Even people of the political colour of hon. mem­bers opposite now readily admit that they made a mistake. Even some of the local people who said they hoped they would never see the day when road transport would dis~ place the old system of moving stock have reluctantly admitted that the system of carrying stock in big transports on modern roads is one of the greatest boons to Queens· land in recent years.

As the hon. member for Gregofy pointed out, road·building in the Outback is very costly. \Vhen metal is easily obtainable it usually works out at between £8,000 and £9,000 a mile but in that area, where gravel is not readily available, the costs are con­siderably higher. Up to the end of June the cost of completing a little over 200 miles between J ulia Creek and Normanton \Vas £2,539,000. However, it is money well spent, money that will be repaid over and over &gain because of the stock that will be saved nnd the benefits that will accrue to the small towns. Julia Creek, for example, has expanded so much that it has become neces~ sary to shift the cattle trucking yards. There was some reluctance on the part of the Minister for Transport to bear the total cost of this work. I give the local council full credit for making a substantial contribution to the cost of removing the yards to a site further out of town. They were enlarged to cope with the cattle coming in from outside areas.

There are a number of areas that neeJ beef roads. I should like to see a network of them throughout the length and breadth of Queensland. In this way we would revive-if that is the con·ect term-the beef cattle industry, although it is really on the up and up. On today's prices I wonder where it will end. Never in the history of the industry have the catllemen in rny are;l received so much from the sale of their stock.

The other roads that I think could be usefully built would be, first the section from Richmond to Georgetown, which would connect with the Georgetown-Mt. Surprise road, leading to the Kennedy Developmental Road. This road carries a large number of cattle. It could then continue from Charters

384 Beef Roads Scheme [ASSEMBLY] Beef Roads Scheme

Towers to Clermont, a distance of 232 miles. We would then tap another large reservoir of cattle.

The traffic on the Charters Towers~ Clermont road is heavy because of the Pentland meatworks. It is so heavy on the formed road that the. road is break,ing up and bridges are collapsing. This is causing concern to the councils involved, and also the hauliers. The sealing o-f the road and the renewing of the bridges would provide another 232 miles of beef road, which w~..1uld benefit everyone. The Julia Creek road would connect with the Landsborough Highway if a beef road was built from J ulia Creek to Kynuna. The Landsborough Highway is the main arterial road from Mt. Isa to Brisbane. I submit that there are excellent reasons for continuing with the construction o£ these badly needed roads.

The hon. member for Gregory said that the overall cost of the schemes would be roughly £22,000,000. Judging from our experience, on the cost of metal and so on I think it could be higher than that. We cannot deny that these roads will have a great impact on the development of Western Queensland. They will benefit not just one electorate, but the whole of the back country. I commend the Government for what has been done. I do not wish to score off the A.L.P. in this matter, but prior to elections the A.L.P. made many wild promises. However, even in their wildest flights of imagination, at no time did they conceive such a colossal plan as this.

Mr. Aikens: They did not realise the tremendous loss of weight suffered by a bullock brought in on the hoof.

Mr. LONERGAN: That is so. This was positive thinking by both Governments. No promises were made; there was no fanfare of trumpets about what was to be done, it was done quietly. Today it is a reality. We know who decided where the roads should go, and although the scheme has worked out quite well, the people in the area engaged in this industry should have been consulted. I do not say, of course, that they would have altered the plan in any way.

Quite recently a party from New South Wales suggested the construction of a road from Dubbo to Julia Creek. Imagine my surprise when I discovered that some Westerners were very much opposed to it on the ground that it would channel trade out of Queensland and into New South Wales.

Mr .. Aikens: Wouldn't it do that?

Mr. LONERGAN: To only a small degree. The man on the land should be given the right to sell his cattle or sheep where he can get the most for them. If he can sell them profitably in Sydney after pay­ing high charges, he is being exploited at present. The people of the Outback are being exploited in many ways.

Mr. Aikens: Don't you think that such a road would eventually force the northern rneatworks to close?

Mr. LONERGAN: I do not know. lf it did, it would prove that the northern meat­works has been exploiting the cattle men. That is what is being done today; make no mistake about it.

I hope that in the not too far distant future more meatworks will be established in Queensland, particularly on the Burdekin, where there is ample water, sufficient land~ and all the other facilities required for meat processing. The manpower is available in Charters Towers, and there would be no difficulty moving stock in and out of the town. In contrast, there is trouble in Towns­ville in that regard. Meatworks should be established on the Burdekin, and beef roads should lead into them. Then there would be an incentive for people to come to the North and establish the industries that are so badly needed there.

Mr. Aikens: There was one on th.: Burdekin. Why was it closed down and dis­mantled?

Mr. LONERGAN: I do not know the reason. The hon. member for Townsville South probably does.

I commend the Government for the assistance It ts giving the people in North Queensland in this regard. It might be a little misleading to refer to them as beef roads, because many people get the idea that they are only for the movement of beef cattle. This causes unnecessary resent­ment because the roads are also giving to the people in the Outback all-weather roads, which they have not previously enjoyed. Good roads give to the man with a wife and family in a remote area a feeling of security, as he knows that if anything goes wrong he will be able to get to the nearest town and obtain medical assistance. This adds to the protection already afforded by the Royal Flying Doctor Service when it is impossible to get the patient to a town.

In times of drought sheep can be moved on these roads, as is happening now. I do not know what the position would now be if the roads were not available. It was said that their construction would not result in the turning-off of one extra beast. How wrong that has been proved to be! They have been used to bring to market thousands of cattle that, although not in prime condi~ tion, would have died had they remained on properties. This has created work at meatworks, and the cattle arrive in better condition because they are no longer thrown about in transit by vehicles having to cross steep gullies and negotiate sharp corners. Anyone seeing what is happening now and comparing it with the situation 15 or 20 years ago must marvel at the progress made.

Petroleum Products [9 SEPTEMBER] Subsidy Bill 385

I hope that when new roads are being considered those between Lynd and Charters Towers, Clermont and Charters Towers, Julia Creek and Kynuna, and Richmond and Georgetown are kept in mind. They would greatly stimulate the cattle industry in North­west and Central Queensland.

Mr. Davies: How much money has been spent on beef roads?

Mr. LONERGAN: £7,060,238.

Mr. Sullivan: Members of the Opposition, particularly new members, might ask why previous Lallour Governments did not do a thing about this before.

Mr. LONERGAN: I have already com-mented on that point. This scheme was beyond their imagination.

I welcome this opportunity of supporting my friend the hon. member for Gregory and thanking him for the manner in which he has dealt with this subject. Even if these roads do not carry one extra beast they wili have provided the people of the West with roads, and I am all for imp-roving the lot of those who live in that part of Queensland. I am sure that all hon. members will agree with me on that point.

I conclude my remarks by comroending both governments on what they are doing in this worth-while venture.

Mr. Low: These roads also have a defence value.

Mr. LONERGAN: That is so.

[Sitting suspended from 1 to 2.15 p.m.]

In accordance with Sessional Order, the House proceeded with Government business.

PETROLEUM PRODUCTS SUBSIDY BILL

SECOND READING

Hon. T. A. HILEY (Chatsworth­Treasurer) (2.15 p.m.): I move-

"That the Bill be now read a second time."

A study of the Bill will have made it clear that it is a simple measure designed to allow the State to act as agent for the Common­wealth for purposes that have been deter­mined basically in the Commonwealth's own legislation and which are incapable of influence in this Parliament. I cannot think of anything that I wish to add to the wide debate that took place at the introductory stage.

Mr. DUGGAN (Toowoomba West­Leader of the Opposition) (2.16 p.m.): The Opposition does not wish to take up the time of the House at the second-reading stage on a measure that, as the Treasurer has indi­cated, is really an enabling Bill. The

13

introductory stage gave us an oppor­tunity to engage in a comprehensive discus­sion of the circumstances surrounding the proposal that the price of petrol in country centres should be not more than 4d. a gallon higher than the price in the cities. The sooner the Commonwealth can be advised that the appropriate steps have been taken by this Parliament, the better. Accordingly, the Opposition welcomes the Bill and supports it.

Mr. W ALSH (Bundaberg) (2, 17 p.m.): As the Treasurer has pointed out, this is an enabling Bill to allow the State to undertake the distribution of certain moneys that are to be paid to it by the Commonwealth for the purpose of subsidising the price of petrol purchased in certain areas of the State. Although we cannot go into the question here of the total cost over the whole of Australia, I think we are at least entitled, as a Parlia­ment, to some information from the Treasurer as to its effect on the citizens of Queensland. Although the Treasurer has all the schedules and figures relating, or likely to relate, to the effect of the legislation on consumers of petrol in Queensland, he has, for reasons best known to himself, not given the House any information about the matter. As mem­bers of this Assembly, we should at least have something before us that will enable us to make up our minds as to whether or not the proposal is justified. Consequently, I again offer the comment, as I did at the introductory stage, that this is merely a political stunt on the part of a Government that wants to attract the votes of certain types of electors.

It is well known that people who live in the areas that will derive most benefit from the measure already enjoy a concession for income~tax purposes because they live there. In addition, I believe that the people who buy most petrol in those areas would be justified in claiming as a deduction for income-tax purposes the amount they spend on petrol that they use to earn the income that they show in their income-tax returns. It is now proposed that this Parliament should agree to enabling legislation that will give effect to a taxation proposal already agreed to by the Federal Parliament.

I do not like quoting figures unless I can do so with the firm convict·ion that they are correct. I do not know whether the Treasurer is able to indicate to the House the amount that is likely to be disbursed under this heading, but I recently saw a Press report which indicated that the Commonwealth Government will already have collected and held in reserve approximately £80,000,000 by the imposition of the additional tax before it pays any moneys out under this legislation.

Mr. Hiley: Are you referring to the 3d.?

Mr. WALSH: I think the Treasurer will agree that, up to the present, all that has been announced is that an additional tax has been imposed on petrol. The only justification given for this legislation, so far as I can

386 Petroleum Products [ASSEMBLY) Subsidy Bill

see, is that it will provide some assistance to the consumers of petrol in remote or sparsely populated areas. That assistance may take only ld. or 2d., or it may take the whole of the 3d. I do not know, and I would only be guessing if I said I did. But those are the things we should know before we commit ourselves to assisting any other Government to extract from the resi· dents of this State, by way of tax, money for use under that or any other heading.

I know the Treasurer will be well acquainted with the statistics that are being issued from one source or another but I have here a very useful pamphlet, or brochure-call it what you like-that has 'been forwarded to hon. members by Thomas Nationwide Transport. It contains a map of Australia and shows the distribution and concentration of population within particular areas in every State-the lightly-populated areas and the sparsely-populated areas.

The Treasurer will agree wU.h the point I made at the introductory stage that the difference between the price of petrol in Brisbane and the price in Cairns, Townsville and various other ports would be very small, if there is any, as each of those places has its own oil terminal. Within a radius of, say, 30 miles of those ports the people would be getting the benefit of the prices charged wit·hin the particular centres, and they con­stitute by far the largest proportion of our population. They would constitute, again, the largest number of motor vehicle owners, whether they be private or commercial vehicles, and consequently they would be the greatest consumers of petrol.

It Js interesting to note on this map that 84 per cent. of Australians live in 40 dis­tricts in 4 per cent. of the total area o.f Australia and that approximately 8 per cent. of the total poulation of Australia lives in 90 per cent. of the area. If one looks at the white spaces on this map, which indicate the sparsely populated areas, one will realise the very small population and therefore the small number of consumers of petrol who are likely to benefit in those areas.

I again emphasise that these people have already had concessions under two headings. Firstly, they have a concession by virtue of the fact that they live in certain zones in which income tax concessions operate and the other is that they are able to claim as a deduction for income tax purposes the cost of petrol used in earning in-come shown in their returns. Side by side with that-1 cannot argue these things; I am only airing them for the purposes of comparison-if any~ one considers the whole· coastal area and the principal cities and calculates the number of pensioners in those areas who own motor­cars and who will pay an additional tax to enahle people in the outback areas to get this concession on top of the many other concessions they are getting already, he will see the point I am making. I know there would be difficulties in bringing it about, but if anyone should be getting any concessions

in this matter, either by way of reduced registration fees or as a subsidy on petrol, it should be the pensioners.

Mr. Campbell: You might be able to after the next e•lection.

Mr. W ALSH: One never knows. The hon. member might be in his grave by then. Do not let us gamble on it. I am not a gambler.

Mr. CampbeU: You are in a position to qualify for a pension.

Mr. WALSH: I know I am. The hon. member for Aspley is going to get his pound of flesh from his 20 hens.

The firm concerned is to be compli­mented on the compilation of this docu~ ment. On the back of it, in which it refers to as "The Facts of Life", is a rearrange­ment of official statistics as at 30th June, 1964. Eight districts are listed in Queens~ land. Having regard to the concentration of the population, and looking at this map from Cairns to the Queensland border, and what is shown in South Australia, Victoria and New South Wales-there are only two little red dots in Western Australia-New South Wales and Victoria, both in relation to remoteness and lightly populated areas, could benefit very much more under this legislation than Queensland will.

Mr. Hiley: Victoria and New South Wales could?

Mr. WALSH: I am only pointing out what this map shows. No doubt it was prepared in a fairly skilful way. It cer~ tainly shows to my eyes larger pink areas in those two States than in Queensland. I am only taking the area into consideration, and the pink denotes the lightly populated areas. The Treasurer may argue, as Victoria has argued for so long, that because of the high proportion of vehi'c'le ownership in that State and its very small area, until recent years, anyhow, a very large proportion of the petrol tax has been going to Queensland and Western Australia. In the meantime, we have nothing before us to indicate how much is coming into the fund that is to be established in the Treasury, whether it will be in keeping with the tax that is imposed on the consumers of petrol or whether the money going into that fund will be in keeping with the amount collected for the special purpose. Obviously there can be paid out by way of subsidy only the amount that is claimed under and in strict accord with the legislation as passed. I realise that, but the Treasurer can show us nothing in the Bill to indicate that the Government will pay out the total amount collected by it for the special purpose for which it will be paid into the fund. The figures I gave-84 per cent. of the people living in 4 per cent. of the area-are very interesting. Of the total population of Australia of 11,135,509, there

Petroleum Products [9 SEPTEMBER] Subsidy Bill 387

are 9,392,504 living in the closely settled areas. Eighty-four per cent. of the total population live in the 40 districts named. In the lightly populated areas 895,329 people, representing 8 per cent. of the popu­lation, live in 6 per cent. of the total area of Australia. In the sparsely populated areas, 847,676 people, again equal to 8 per cent of the total population, live in 90 per cent. of the total area. These figures give only some idea of the very small number living in such an extensive area, whether in Queensland and Western Australia particu­larly, or, to a lesser extent, South Australia.

I said at the introductory stage that I am not opposed to a uniform price if it is introduced on a proper basis. I do not see why the man on a wage or salary, living in a remote area, should not get his butter, cheese or any other necessity of life at a uniform price. If the Treasurer indicates to us that those in the areas who are to benefit by this legislation constitute a substantial number of wage and salary earners-even though they may be Jiving in zones where they get income tax concessions­there should not be any opposition to the proposal. However, if this benefit is to be given to people who are earning substantial incomes and getting concessions under different other headings, it is pretty hard to justify.

At the previous stage the Treasurer made many pleas when he drew our attention to the drought and how these people have been suffering. Of course they are suffering. However, I am sure that there are many people who are making use of the drought to serve their own ends, whether they be in politics or elsewhere. I can get people south of Gladstone who will say that their stock are in first-class condition, but the same people would not have said that in 1946 or 1952, when the drought was more widespread. There is no doubt that, from a crop and water point of view, the difficulties of the people on the land are great in many districts.

I remind the Treasurer that this State depends in many ways on a work force which has to move about in the course of employment. During the slack season in the sugar industry hundreds of workers are on social service-and live in cities. Included in the price of the petrol they use is a tax which will benefit those who, over a period of years, are far better off than they are. When we assess the situation we find that this tax is to be imposed on a large body of family men Jiving in city areas who own cars and possibly use them only at the week-end for trips to the South Coast, or to resorts outside Bundaberg, Maryborough, Rockhampton, or elsewhere. They are the people who will be paying the increased imposition.

The Treasurer might tell me-and I am quite entitled to assume he will be correct­that included in this tax. will be some money for the beef roads and other schemes. This

could happen, but as far as we are concerned the Treasurer has said nothing to indicate whether the Commonwealth will say, "Spend this money in a rightful way." The Treasurer, of course, could very well say that that has nothing to do with me. That is true, but it does not stop me from making the observation. The Treasurer knows that there has been strong agitation from various associations that represent the motor-owner interests for the whole of the petrol tax to be returned to the States. They are like the people who talk about parliamentary salariesi they do not know what they are talking about, because Queensland gets a large proportion back. I am more concerned that the Commonwealth has asked the States to act as the medium of the Commonwealth's becoming justified in imposing a tax for the purpose of handing it out to one section of the community on the one hand, and, on the other hand, taking no cognizance of the basic~wage earner, the family man, the pensioner, and others who are entitled to a concession.

Hon. T. A. HILEY (Chatsworth­Treasurer) (2.36 p.m.), in reply: It is clear that the House generally accepts this legis­lation as being of benefit to a section of the people of Queensland who can certainly do with it. However, some of the obser­vatior s of the hon. member for Bundaberg prompt me to say a few things in reply.

First of aU, let us be clear about it. Because of the distances in Queensland and the percentage of people who live well back from our ports of entry, this State, which has less than 15 per cent. of Australia's population, will receive almost 25 per cent. of the total cheques drawn by the Commonwealth.

Mr. Walsb: That is interesting, but it will stiii go to the graziers and the pastoralists.

Mr. HILEY: I shall have a look at that last statement in a moment.

The hon. member rather spoilt his argument when he tried to imply that this will be of particular benefit to Victoria and New South Wales.

:Mr. Walsh: I used this coloured map.

Mr. HILEY: The hon. member used a poor authority, because the Ministers repre­senting New South Wales and Victoria were under no such illusion. It was all we could do to get the Victorian Minister to attend the conference because he thought there was nothing in the proposal for Victoria. That becomes evident if one ponders over the distances from the ports of entry to inland towns in Victoria.

There may be something in the hon. member's argument if there was no 4d. differential. It is not until it is over 4d. that the benefit starts to accrue, and a fair distance must be travelled before the 4d. is exceeded. Almost every resident in

388 Petroleum Products [ASSEMBLY] Subsidy Bill

Victoria is within the 4d. differential. Victoria's share will be below its population percentage whereas our share will be 1 t times our population percentage, thanks to the fact that we have usable lands well back from the coast.

The hon. member chose to suggest that this was a political stunt. Then he presented figures which give the lie to his own argument, because he suggested that 92 per cent. of the people of Australia will be bearing an extra burden so that 8 per cent. of the people of Australia can benefit. If that is a political stunt, it is a pretty poor one.

1\ir. Walsb: They have not woken up.

Mr. IDLEY: I am glad to say that in this measure there is a recognition in the Commonwealth Parliament of the hardships of the man who lives in the Far West and the Far North.

Mr. Duggan: That was recognised by both sides of the House.

Mr. HILEY: That is correct. If one inference is to be drawn from the figures on the map the hon. member presented, :t is that it is high time the governments in Australia realised that we have carried this 92 per cent. of the people in Australia on 4 per cent. of the land altogether too far.

Mr. Walsh: You will agree that the consumer of meat here has to pay freight on the bullock that comes down?

Mr. HILEY: We are not talking about meat; we are talking about a commodity which can only be distributed from the seaboard and which is used not in equal quantities, but in far greater quantities by the man in the West who has to use his car more. The hon. member referred to the bad roads and bogs and such matters and acknowledged the hardships suffered by the man in the West. However, his heart is closed to that man's problems; he is not interested in them at an.

Mr. Walsh: He has his income~tax deductions.

Mr. HILEY: But what if he loses?

Mr. Walsh: What about the fellow who is out of work in the city?

Mr. HILEY: No-one who wants to work is out of work today.

Mr. Walsh: Probably not at the moment.

:Mr. HILEY: But there are some people in the West who this yea·r wHl have losses that it will take years to recover, and anything that can be done to lighten the burden of distance on those who are forced, by the sheer size of the land mass of Australia. to carry on their affairs weU bac:k from tihe ports deserves the support and acclamation of every thinking person in every Parliament in Australia.

The hon. member used the argument that this expense is largely deductible. If his earnings are good, a person gains a rebate, but, because of it, he loses some of his tax deductions. If he has a loss, then he has a real saving that comes to him at the time when he needs it most, and when he has to turn over every pound and look at it twice before spending it. That is the time when he needs it most desperately and When it will be of real value to him.

All the hon. member's argument was presented on the assumption that the increase of 3d. a gallon in customs duty was directly related to the rebate.

Mr. Walsh: No, it was not.

Mr. HILEY: Yes, it was. The hon. mem­ber asked why I had not presented it on an arithmetical basis. The increase of 3d. was imposed by the Commonwealth Government as a straight-out revenue producer. It becomes an indistinguisha!ble part of Corn~ monwealth revenue. The rebate is paid irrespective of the cost. It is payable where the re'bate is less than the product of 3d., where it is equal to the product of 3d., and where it is more than the product of 3d. The increase of 3d. does not go into a trust fund. There is no suggestion that there will be a profit taken out of it. My opinion, from the aritlhmetic of it, is that overatl the Common­wealth Government will ga·in more in revenue by the increase of 3d. a gallon than it will pay out in rebates, but that is quite irrelevant. The imposition of the increase of 3d. was a general revenue measure no different from increases in income tax or anything else.

I repeat that the Government-and, I think, both sides of the House___,has accepted, not for a few years but for many years, the desirability of doing all possi<ble to decen~ tralise activities in this vast State and, as a conscious effort towards decentralisation. to lighten the cost burden on those in the West and North of the State. Far from supporting his argument, the figures presented by the hon. mern:ber for Bundaberg provide the best argument in support of the Bill. The Commonwealth Government will pay the excess over 4d., no matter what it costs. That i.s their hazard.

I am sorry to say that during the hon. member's speech I could not help feeling that he approached the whole matter on this basis: "I have to do something to stop graziers getting anything out of this." I think it would be a sorry day in this House if responsible members ever took a particular calling in the community and made it the target of blind and unreasoning class hatred.

Mr. Walsh: Is that why you put a tax on unearned income?

Mr. HILEY: Yes, and rhe Iron. member did not disagree with that.

Mr. Walsh: No, I did not.

Petroleum Products [9 SEPTEMBER] Subsidy Bill 389

Mr. HILEY: The Bill will benefit every user of petrol in the areas affected. It will apply to every car~owner, no matter what his occupation, according to the extent of his use of motor or aviation spirit. A pensioner at Longreach who operates a motor car wiil receive the benefit, just as will a pensioner in any other part of the benefited tenitory. I cannot understand why any reasoning man should examine the measure through the narrow eyes of class hatred because, for some mysterious reason, he seems to have towards one group in the community a phorbia of discontent and jealousy.

The Hill will provide signa'l benefits. Its basic purpose is to ease the physical and financial difficulties of those living in the Far West and Far North. The help that will be given to them is too 1·eal and valuable for us to spurn. I do not spurn it: I welcome it.

Motion (Mr. Hiley) agreed to.

COMMITTEE

(fhe Chairman of Committees, Mr. Hooper, Greenslopes, in the chair)

Clauses 1 and 2, as read, agreed to. Clause 3-Calculation of Subsidy-

Mr. DUGGAN (foowoomba West­Leader of the Opposition) (2.46 p.m.): I speak on this clause only because I wish to comment generally on one or two matters that have been raised and so that I can make clear the attitude of the Opposition on this matter.

On the question of the calculation of the subsidy to be paid, we say, as I said at the introductory stage-it is in "Hansard" for everyone to read-that this proposal fol­lowed a policy promise made by the leader of the Federal Parliamentary Labour Party, Mr. Calwell, that, if elected, he was pre­pared to introduce a scheme that would provide a uniform price for petrol through­out Australia. That proposal was met in part by the Prime Minister, who promised to introduce an arrangement of differential formulas. As the Prime Minister, Sir Robert Menzies, was returned to office fol­lowing the making of that promise, the responsibility fell on him to implement this proposal, and conferences of Ministers and officers were held to work out the details. I do not think the Prime Minister appre­ciated the difficulties that bad to be overcome.

The hon. member for Bundaberg has made certain remarks about the proposal, and I wish to make the attitude of the A.L.P. quite clear. We could not subscribe to the views that the hon. member expressed, because if Mr. Calwell's proposal had been implemented, the people who are reaping the benefit of this proposal would have reaped an even greater benefit. In the Federal Par­Iiament-1 have read the "Hansard" reports

of the debate there-all A.L.P. speakers sup~ ported the proposal. The only criticism they had to offer was the one that I and other hon. members on this side of the Chamber offered-that those who were not in close proximity to a wholesaler should be given a rebate representing the difference between the metropolitan price and the differential of 4d. a gallon.

A claim by shearers for very substantial increases in shearing rates is now before the Industrial Commission, and the argument of the employers is that, because of the drought and the decrease in wool prices, the industry cannot afford to meet their demands. That is a matter for the Commission to deter~ mine in due course, but I point out that, in addition to the graziers. there are a number of shearers who, because of the nature of their work, are obliged to travel considerable distances and who will also reap the benefit.

Mr. Aikens: I think we would like to see a uniform price, but this is the best we can get at the moment.

Mr. DUGGAN: That is the attitude that I have adopted here on behalf of the Opposition.

It seems that the implementation of the proposal wi11 not affect State finances very greatly. I asked the Treasurer· what the cost to the State would be if it administered the proposal on behalf of the Common~ wealth Government because that Govern­ment lacked the constitutional power to do so. He said that the cost of administration, which would be comparatively small, would be the only cost incurred by the State. Therefore, if we had any opposition to the proposal, it would be only to the extent that Queensland has some obligations under the scheme.

People living in cities along the seaboard are near the source of supply and benefit as a result; but I should be foolish to oppose the proposal, because in Toowoomba, a city of 50,000 people in which I live, there will be a benefit of 1 td. a gallon, and large populations in Dalby and Roma will benefit to an even greater extent. There would not be any benefit if this proposal was not imple~ mented. I am not defending the Treasurer's view, but if there had been no intention to introduce this proposal it would not have meant that the pensioner or anybody else would have got cheaper petrol. The charges would have remained exactly as they are had they not been covered by this rebate system. If the price is too high in the metro~ politan area, that wil1 not be affected. The only way that can be changed is by deter­mination by the Prices Commissioners in those States where control is exercised over petroleum products.

I think that I and others on this side of the Chamber have already argued that when this benefit is passed on to mail contractors and others we should do an we possibly can

390 Petroleum Products Subsidy Bill [ASSEMBLY] Children's Services Bill

to ensure that it is also passed on to those living in the areas who, because of the price of petrol, have to pay high prices for the commodities they use. Another matter I mentioned was how far we should go in providing uniform prices to establish uni­formity in the cost of living in those areas. I pointed out that it costs more for a house in inland areas than in the metropolitan area but the ordinary person buying an allotment in, say, Longreach, would not have to pay the same as tthe average wage~earner would be obliged to pay in Brisbane and other more populous parts of the State.

I agree that it might be a point on which one has to argue on the one hand for a greater share of responsibility for uniform prices throughout the Commonwealt!h being borne by metropolitan people or that the entire cost of living should be made uniform throughout the country. People living in the cities. for instance, pay high fares to and from work which people in other parts of the State are not obliged ·to pay.

Mr. Houghton interjected.

Mr~ DUGGAN: I suppose it would amount to 15s. or £1 a week on an average. The person living in, say, Hughenden, would not have to pay that. Against that, he would be pay[ng more for clothing, -timber for home building, and certain other necessities for a home and family.

The point I want to make is that the various aspects were covered by A.L..P. speakers and they represent a unanimity of opinion with our friends in the A.L.P. in the Commonwealth Parliament. We are of the opinion that, although it fulfils the election promise, it does not go far enough; it should have gone so far as providing for a uniform price. However, in the circumstances, no opposition could increase the measure of benefit provided in the Bill. All we could do would be to oppose it if we had sufficient numbers, but we cannot increase the benefit. We know it was a matching proposal to offset the appeal that Sir Robert Menzies felt lay in the Federal A.L.P. proposal, conse~ quently all we can do is to avoid looking a gift horse in the mouth.

I think I have been in order, Mr. Hooper. I think you wiii agree with me that this clause is the only one on which I could make this observation without being ruled out of order. I think the other points the Treasurer made dealt with the objections raised.

Mr. W ALSH (Bundaberg) (2.54 p.m.): The Treasurer need not think that the remarks he made disturbed me in any way. I am not going to sit quietly in this Chamber and see measures being brought down wifu little or no explanation or with little or no opposition coming from A.L.P. members. As the official Opposition, they have a jdb oto do. If they feel that they can support this proposal­'Vhey have said so--and that there is justifi.ca~ tion for it because their Federal counterparts have approved of it in some sort of way, that

does not necessarily mean that I have to follow them. There may be many things done in the Federal Parliament, both by .the Menzies Government and the A.L.P., with Which I do not a-gree.

The Treasurer came in with a plausible argument about shearers. I know there are she·arers. I have travelled the roads in the West. When I was out there campaigning 26 years ago I could travel muoh quicker on the road between Winton and Longreach than I could between Sarina and Carmila. It took me the same time to travel 40 miles in that area as it would take to cover the 125 miles from Longreach to Winton. If the Treasurer talks about how much petrol the shearer uses, and relate·s that to the con­cession he will get, I ask him to line it up with 1he enormous amount of petrol used by those who own the properties. I have no particular feelings against graziers as such but I have never been in favour of spoon~feeding one section of the community at the' expense of another. Even if people live in the cities I have always taken the view that they should accept their respon~ sibilities for the things that are required to bring about an improved way of living. I cannot see any justification for asking the basic~wage earner and the family man in the dty who has to meet the ever~increasing costs for commodities from country areas, which will enjoy this concession, to contribute again to the cost of these items by way of a subsidy on petrol.

As I say, this Bill goes only halfway. It helps only one section. The Treasurer can talk till doomsday, but the people who wil1 benefit from this legislation are not the small people. They could be the Southport graziers--

The CHAmMAN: Order! I remind the hon. member that clause 3 deals with the calculation of suibsidy.

Mr. W ALSH: That is perfectly true. I listened carefully to what the Leader of the Opposition said so that I would not go ·beyond what he was referring to. I do not want to prolong the argume.J!t any fll1'ther. I have made my points on this question.

Clause 3, as read, agreed to. Clauses 4 to 17, both inclusive, as read,

agreed to. Bill reported, without amendment.

THIRD READING

B:HI, on motion of Mr. Hiley, by leave, read a third time.

CHILDREN'S SERVICES BILL INITIATION IN COMMfiTEE

(The Chairman of Committees, Mr. Hooper, Greenslopes, in the chair)

Hon. J, D. HERBERT (Sherwood­Minister for Labour and Industry) (3.1 p.m.): I move-

"That a Bill be introduced to promote, safeguard and protect the we1l~being of

Children's Services Bill [9 SEPTEMBER] Children's Services Bill 391

the children and youth of the State through a comprehensive and co-ordinated pro~ gramme of child and family welfare and to amend the Adoption of Children Act of 1964, in certain particulars."

There is no need for me to stress the importance of the measure which I am about to introduce, dealing as it does with the wel­fare of children and young people and their place within the family and the community. The Bill has been prepared after a con~ siderable amount of thought by widely ex­perienced people from many professions. all we11 qualified to give advice. They were not only from within the Public Service but also from professional and other organisa­tions vitally interested in the welfare of children. I feel sure hon. members will agree that it is the type of measure that should be dealt with frankly and fully, and on a non~political basis.

Our late colleague, Dr. Noble, realised the need to improve the children's services of this State and to bring our law into line with the latest concepts of children's rights and welfare. In September, 1961) as the then Minister in charge of the State Children Department, he set up a committee under the chairmanship of my colleague the Hon. A. T. Dewar to review existing child welfare legislation and to make recommendations on which to base a comprehensive modern law relating to children. In addition to Mr. Dewar, the committee comprised Dr. B. F. R. Stafford, Director of Psychiatric Services, Dr. B. J. Phillips, Senior Medical Director of the Welfare and Guidance Division of the Department of Health, Mr. R. T. Matthews, who was then Assistant Under Secretary of the Justice Department but who is now the Metropolitan Children's Court Magistrate, Miss M. K. Whiley, Senior Social Worker of the Department of Health, and Mr. C. A. P. Clark, Director of the State Children Department.

The committee made a very detailed study of the various local problems in addition to a study of the situation in other States and overseas countries, particularly Britain; whose Jaws have been subject to a similar review by a committee under the chairman­ship of Viscount Ingleby.

As many, and as wide, opinions as possible were sought and the committee asked organi­sations and persons interested in the welfare of children to examine the question and make submissions. Twenty organisations and 10 individuals came forward with submissions, and 38 representatives of these appeared personally before the committee to elaborate their views and answer questions. Some of the submissions were lengthy documents running into between I 00 and 200 pages. Hon. members will appreciate the breadth of opinion when I name some of these organisations-the Vice Chancellor's Com­mittee on Child Welfare of the University of Queensland, the Queensland Branch of the Australian Medical Association, the Queensland Group of the British Psycho­logical Society, the Queensland Law Society,

the Creche and Kindergarten Association, the Queensland Housewives Association, all denominational bodies working in child wel­fare, the Australian Association of Social Workers, the Children's Homes Superintend­ents and Matrons' Association, and the Council of Social Service.

I must express the appreciation of the Government to those organisations and people who made submissions to, or gave evidence before, the committee. Their contribution was extremely valuable and gave not only a very wide community view but also expert thinking on this vital subject.

The late Dr. Noble, accompanied by the Director of the State Children Department, Mr. Clark, visited North America, Britain and Europe in 1962 for the purpose of studying not only the laws relating to child welfare but also the programmes being implemented in those countries. Dr. Noble, in addition to other duties and interests, devoted considerable time to the study of child welfare matters. The information obtained by this visit was invaluable to the committee, and many features have been incorporated in the proposed legislation.

The committee presented its report in July, 1963, and it was tabled in October of that year so that hon. members would have time to read and study the report, on which this Bill has now been based.

The committee then devoted its attention to assisting with the preparation of the Bill, but at this stage my colleague Hon. A. T. Dewar was elevated to the Ministry and his place as chairman of the committee was taken by Hon. S. D. Tooth, ML.A., who is now my colleague the Minister for Health. Child Welfare activities were transferred from the portfolio of the Minister for Health to that of the Minister for Labour and Industry, and Mr. C. L. Johnson, Assistant Under Secretary of the Department of Labour and Industry, was added to the committee. _Upon Mr. Tooth's being elevated to Cabinet rank, the committee carried on its work under the Deputy Chairman, Mr. Clark, Director of the State Children Department.

I mention also that the committee, in addition to devoting its attention to the preparation of the BiU, made a comprehen­sive survey into the economic aspects of the legislation to guide the Government in its financial programme to meet the new concepts which the Bill will introduce.

Hon. members will therefore appreciate that this Bill, particularly its new features, has a very sound substance.

On behalf of the Government, I express sincere appreciation to the members of the committee. I know there was much reading and study to be done apart from their regular meetjngs, of which there were 89, aDd a good deal of this was done in their own personal time.

The history of child welfare in this State commenced soon after Separation in 1859. but the first legislation was not introduced

392 Children's Services Bill [ASSEMBLY] Children's Services Bill

until 1879 with the passing of the Orphanage Act. This Act was the basis of child-welfare administration until 1911 when the State Children Act was passc;:d. The 1911 Act :represented a big step forward in the care of socially deprived children but it did not by any means remove aU the attitudes of the Victorian era towards them. This, of course·. is understandable because it takes long years for pu•blic attitudes and social conditions to change.

As the report indicated, the 1911 Act and its subsequent amendments were sufficiently flexible to enable much of the practice of the State Children Department to keep pace with modern concepts of child welfare. Much criHcism of the child welfare services of this State has, howerver, arisen from persons who have read the law only and have not inquired into it's administration. This criticism has been accentuated by the fact that during the long years of Labour Government little attention was given to the needs of the child~welfare services; in fact, it is common knowledge that through this period the State Children Department fell into a backwater and was regarded as the Cinderella of Government departments. It was housed in old and unattractive accommodation in William Street, its staffing was inadequate, and its institutions feU into a state of neglect. A tribute, however, must be paid to the officers who have served in the department over these years. With heavy caseloads and difficult problems and con~ ditions they had to carry on doing the best they could for the children coming into care. They had to live down the attitudes of the past towards neglected, socially deprived, and illegitimate children, accentu~ ated by the neglect of the governments of the day. These officers achieved much against a background of criticism by per~ fectionists and people who did not truly understand the difficulties of the situation.

n was not until 1957 and the coming of this Government that any true realisation of the importance of the work came )nto evidence. I know full well the legacy that this Government inherited, and since occupy~ ing the Treasury benches it has had a positive policy to improve progressively chi'ld-welfare services to a standard compara·ble at least to t·hose in other parts of Australia.

Mr. Davies: You said it was to be non~ political and you have made: it political straight away.

The CHAIRMAN: Order! I remind the hon. member for Maryborough that he knows the Standing Orders of the House, and that persistent interjecting will not be permitted.

Mr. HERBERT: Family relations have always presented problems for child welfare authorities, but, with the tempo of modern Jiving and its influence on the family, it is a field requiring more and more attention. It is a field for intensive research. Social

work must now be regarded as a profession; no longer can it be left to untrained persons motivated only by good intentions. Complex personal situations are involved, and skill, patience, and human understanding are required to preserve the family unit and protect the children.

The 1911 Act has, in general, served well to enable help to be given to socially deprived children and families as well as children who find themselves involved in anti~social behaviour. However, the com­mittee found the time had arrived for the law to be strengthened and brought into line with modern concepts. This applies also to other laws associated with children, such as the Infant Life Protection Acts, the Children's Protection Acts, the Children's Courts Acts, and the Guardianship and Custody of Infants Acts.

I shall outline to hon. members some of the features of existing law which are not in line with modern principles and which will be remedied in the Bill.

Firstly, there is discrimination. Although the department has been making every endeavour to avoid discrimination between children in its care and other children in the community, the present Act does work against this policy. We are all aware of the public attitude towards children in the care of the department generally and the stigma that has been placed on them over the years by the use of such terms as "State children"-or, colloquially, ~'State kids"-and even by the name of the department. Some sections of the community reject these children and there are others who are inclined to over-indulge them. Neither is in their interests. They have had disturbances in their young lives affecting, in many instances, their emotions and stability. These children need help to overcome the effects of these disturbances, and they need skilled care in order that they can surmount their difficulties and grow into good, stable citizens. They are no different from other children except that they have had their Jives jeopardised by unsatisfactory situations within their family environment.

Every child needs a good home and good parents. It needs love and security in its formative years. It must be taught right from wrong; it must have education and learn to follow accepted social standards. This involves discipline, and recognition of and respect for the rights of others. It is, however, unfortunate that some parents have failings and inadequacies reflecting on the well-being of their children. It is these children in whom we are interested and whom we seek to protect.

People once had a very real fear of the State Children Department, a fear arising a good deal from the workhouse attitudes of the last century. They distrusted the department and its officers as well as their intentions. Some people still imagine the department as having a cold, unsympathetic

Children's Services Bill [9 SEPTEMBER] Children's Services Bill 393

approach, delighting in taking children away from parents. Hon. members will know that this is wrong. The department is humane and sympathetic. Its officers strenuously endeavour to keep children with their parents, and it accepts children o-nly when it is detrimental for them to remain in their own family units.

It is only those people who have neglected their children or who have jeopardised their welfare who may have unpleasant dealings with the department, because the department will always intervene to protect a child, and rightly so.

There is a power in the State Children Act enabling the Director to take away from its mother any child for whom the department has been paying assistance. Here is another example where the Act is out of step with practice. This power has not been exercised for over 30 years, and it will not be re~enacted by the BilL If it is in the interests of a child that it should be removed from its home, then the department acts through the Children's Court unless, of course, the parent is prepared to release the child to the department voluntarily.

Then, again, there is the erroneous impres­sion that the department places children in large denominational homes and forgets them. For many years the department has been following a policy of making every endeavour to ensure that all avenues are explored before a child is taken away from its own home environment, and even when this has to be done, the department then works to have the child returned to its home if this is possible.

Of course, many of these home environ­ments are very unsuitable, and in other cases the homes have disintegrated and mother and father have parted without any hope of reconciliation. It is in these circumstances that the department looks for foster place­ment, giving the child a good, stable home and family environment. Its work in this direction has been intensified in recent years, as will be seen from the Director's annual reports. Each year has shown a growth in its foster~home programme, and there are now 809 children living in foster homes. Foster placement is not a simple process suitable for all children. It requires care~ ful selection of parents and careful place­ment of the child to ensure that there will be compatibility between the foster parents and the child. The work of the department in this respect has been successful over the years, and it will continue its policy of giving a high priority to foster placements.

Amongst the many deficiencies in the existing Act, no section requires amend­m~nt more than that which makes it obliga­tory on a mother to forfeit guardianship of her children in order to receive financial assistance from the department. This has done much to make rnotherR reluctant to approach the department for help because

of the fear that they might lose their children. This is too great a demand to make on any mother to enable her to receive financial assistance.

However, I am happy to say that for many years it has been treated as much as possible as a formality. and here is a further example of the Act being out of step with practice. It is one of the relics of past attitudes that if financial help was paid to a family, the State should have complete control of the children. The Bill provides for the abolition of this requirement. Welfare officers will still visit families receiving financial assist­ance because in many instances mothers wel­come advice and help in bringing up their children, particularly the older boys and girls. The department is always willing to assist and provide guidance. It encourages children to proceed with their education and helps them to obtain suitable employ­ment. Visits by welfare officers will also be necessary in some cases to ensure that moneys are being properly spent on the children and to check that payment of assistance is still justified.

As I said previously, the classification of children under the present Act is another feature that has branded children placed in the care of the department. Whether they come into care through no fault of their own or because they are uncontrollable or commit an offence, it makes no difference­they are all "State children". Hon. members only have to look at the present definition of a neglected child to see the manner in which the Act groups chlldren together­good, bad, or otherwise. It is not that I favour discrimination by separating the good and the bad; the principle is that children need different types of care, and the Bill will clearly define this.

Homes and services are provided for children who have come into the care of the department through no fault of their own, but they, of course, do not require the environment necessary for uncontrollable children or for children who have been involved in crime. Each of these categories is a different proposition and requires the utilisation of different services and care available to the department.

Hon. members will agree that the present situation, which labe1s all children associated with the department as "wards of the State" or "State children" needs rectification-not to the extent that it will brand the recalcitrant. only to the extent that it will ensure that cor­rect services for the child's well-being are utilised.

Children for whom financial assistance only is paid to their mothers or relatives will not be regarded as children in care. It will be only those children who are placed in the care of the Director, either by courts or on voluntary application, who wili be regarded as children in care.

394 Children's Services Bill [ASSEMBLY] Children's Services Bill

To achieve a suitable classification to ensure the correct application of services, children in care will come into two groups, namely, children in need of care and pro tee~ tion, and children in need of care and control. The first group will comprise children who are in the care of the depart­ment through no fault of their own but because they have some disturbance in their lives making it necessary for them to leave their families, such as death of parents, deser~ tion, divorce. Those in need of care and control will comprise the uncontrollable children and young people who have been in conflict with the law.

I have given this matter much thought and I feel that the principles are sound and that the proposed classification of children for the purposes of the law will not give rise to the use by people generally of distinguish­ing names such as those that have emanated from the present Act.

As I said previously. even the name of the department has helped place a stigma on children in its care. This feature was one of the first aspects considered by the committee, and it was firmly of the opinion that the name "State Children Department" should be replaced. Considerable thought was given to the matter and the name recom­mended by the committee has been adopted and included in the Bill, namely, the Depart­ment of Children's Services. I know that there are other services not under the control of the department dealing with children, such as the Education Department and the Maternal and Child Welfare Division of the Department of Health, but to find a suitable name describing precisely the functions of the department and one which will not mark the child is almost impossible. I am sure the new name will soon become related to the work of the department and will not give rise to stigma or discrimination.

The present law restricts the manner in which a child who has committed an offence or is uncontrollable may be dealt with by a court. Furthermore, it does not provide adequate ways and means by which parents can be involved in order to secure the rehabili­tation of the child, nor is there any power to require parents to work with the department. The Children's Court Acts and the State Children Acts give courts little scope outside of admonishing and discharging a child, placing a child on probation and placing a child in the care of the department for deten­tion purposes; in fact, the power to admonish and discharge applies only to Children's Courts and it is not available to District or higher courts.

There is no doubt that there is a need for wider powers to deal with a child, par­ticularly in the case of children in employ­ment where fines could be imposed and restitution ordered. I am firmly of the opinion that people who illegally use and damage the property of others or commit acts of vandalism should be compelled to make good the damage. If these acts arise from parental neglect or for other reasons

involving the parent, then the parent should be joined in the restitution. I feel this is quite feasible today when young people are earning reasonable wages and should be able to provide for their own needs without illegally using other people's property, such as motor vehicles. They must be taught that they have to work honestly to gain their own needs. They will then take pride in obtaining their own possessions and they will care for them and not use other people's.

I am in agreement generally with the principle that the cure for delinquency is not detention. There are of course some young people who, in the public interest, must be detained. There are others for whom a short period of detention is necessary in their own interests and for their rehabilita~ tion. A short, sharp shock can often bring young people to their senses. I do, however, feel that more can be done by the use of probation or, as it is intended to describe it in the Bill, supervision. The use of the term "supervision" will distinguish children's services from adult probation services and, furthermore, it is consistent with the descrip~ tion of this particular work in other parts of the world.

Supervisory services, to be effective, must have teeth. They must be able to help and guide, using compulsion where necessary, but without taking the child out of the general community. He must be educated to live as a good citizen and this can be done effec~ tively only if he still lives in the community. The Bill will provide for a more effective supervisory system in which the parent as well as the child can be involved. This is one of the major faults in our present arrangements because a parent is an import~ ant unit in the success of supervisory work. Most parents are anxious to co~operate, but there are others who will not.

Provision will therefore be made in the Bill that if a parent fails to co-operate it will be an offence, and the pare'Ilt can be •brought before the court and punished. Such a power is not, in my opinion, drastic; if we are to tackle delinquency then the depart­ment must be given authority to work with the family and the family with the depart­ment. It is the only way to improve unsatis~ factory home environments and to remove features of family life which have given rise to delinquent behaviour in a child. This, too, is preventive work because it can help to check other children in the family from becoming involved with the law.

When the 18'te Dr. Noble and Mr. Clark were overseas in 1962 they spent some time in observing the working of periodic deten­tion units or, as they are known generally, attendance centres. This is a facility which can be interposed between supervision and detention and, in fact, made part of super~ vision. It is a method by which yourig people involved in anti~social behaviour are required to spend portion of their free time each week at an attendance centre. These centres, in addition to being disciplinary with a degree

Children's Services Bill [9 SEPTEMBER] Children's Services Bill 395

of punishment, are, in the main, rehabilitative. They provide training in useful projects and show young people how to occupy their leisure time. They endeavour to engage their interests in sporting activities and, in short, educate young people in how to use their time beneficially instead of standing on street corners, or in undesirable rendezvous.

When young people are unoccupied, it is then that they get into mischief and become involved in anti~social behaviour. I am convinced that if we can educate them in ways of profitably using their spare time a valu­able contribution can be made to reducing the incidence of delinquency in this State. Young delinquents are not usually welcome in youth clubs, nor have they any interest in being members, except perhaps to disrupt and cause trouble.

In Britain, attendance centres are· con­ducte-d in conjunction with the Police Depart~ ment. In the United States, they are con­ducted 'by service organisations or juvenile court services. The Director of the State Children Department, Mr. Clark, was par~ ticularly jmpressed with an attendance centre he saw in Boston. This centre was originally estab-lished by Rotary with juvenile court services in the background. From my dis~ cussions and study of the Boston scheme, I am convinced that there is considerable benefit in using a service agency such as Rotary because of the fact that young people going to the centre will gain furthe'l' by meeting reputable citizens who have estab, lished themselves in the community and who are in a position to help them. The Bill will provide for the operation of attendance centres, and it is intended to have one of these units operating in Brisbane with the co~operation of a service agency as quickly as possible. In fact, prelimina·ry discussions have taken place with Brisbane Rotary and that organisation has exp-ressed its keen interest.

This will bring a new feature to the services of the State for the rehabilitation of young people in conflict with -the law. I am sure hon. members will agree that it is a service well worth trying, particularly as it tends towards preventive work in that young people can be directed to such centres before they become involved in major crime.

Another important principle recommended by the committee which has been accepted relates to increased jurisdiction for the Children's Court. Children's Courts are now courts of summary jurisdiction, requiring indictable Offences to be referred to District or higher courts. New South Wa:les and other States have already extended the juris­diction of their Children's C-ourts, and this principle has also been applied in Britain. In fact, further changes have been fore­shadowed in Britain but their intentions are not clear enough to assess t-heir value.

The committee's recommendation was that the jurisdiction of the Children's C-ourt should be extended to enable it to deal with all offences

committed by children except those involving life· imprisonment, such as murder, attempted murder, rape or arson, but at the same time preserving the riglrt of a child to be tried before judge and jury if the child or its parents so desire.

The right of a magistrate to refer a case to a higher jurisdiction should also be pre­served, and there should be a right of appeal to higher courts against any decision of a children's court. It is the function of a children's court to direct greater attention to rehabilitation than to punishment, and to give to the agency that is to carry out or supervise the rehabilitation of the child the legal authority to do so. Our concept of the Children's Court is that it is not in itself a rehabilitative service, as it is in the United States, but it is, as I said previously, the medium to give social agencies the requisite legal authority to carry out their work. Its function is the administration of justice. The actual work of rehabilitation is the function of the department. If the juris~ diction of the Children's Court is extended as suggested, it will not only bring Queens* land into line with other States and with present arrangements in Britain, but as in those places, it will also offer protection and justice to the child by not permitting it to avoid the law and the consequences of its actions. At the same time, it will give the child every opportunity to do the right thing in the future.

The Children's Court will continue to be a closed court, as it is at present. I know there is a body of opinion that says that young offenders should have the full flare of publicity thrown on them. but on the other hand this destroys a deal of the opportunity for their rehabilitation. They become known and they are shunned by society. This is not the way to help young people. Furthermore, there are some young folk who thrive on publicity; it builds them up in their gang and they become heroes. Some young people in this State have kept newspaper cuttings of their appearances in the higher courts, using the publicity to boost their ego. This leads them into further crime. In British communities, children's courts are closed courts or there is definite restriction of publication of proceedings. The same posi­tion exists generally in the United States, except in one or two instances.

Under the present Act the Director has very wide powers to deal with children who come into the care of the department, and I agree that he must have these powers if the welfare of children is to be safeguarded. However, there is one aspect to which I would refer, and that is the power of the Director to refuse to discharge a child from the care of the department when the child has come into the department's care on the voluntary application of its parents or guardian. I am not saying that this power has been abused in the past; in fact, the contrary is the case, but I do feel that there should be some way in which parents' rights

396 Children's Services Bill [ASSEMBLY] Children's Services Bill

can be protected, particularly when the child is placed in the care of the department voluntarily.

Directors have always acted in the interests of the child but, at the same time, awkward situations have arisen in so far as the depart­ment and the Director are concerned. He and his officers have been subject to abuse and aggressive attitudes, even to the extent of aggrieved persons interfering with the private home life of these officers. The com­mittee closely examined this situation and recommended a variation of this power to provide that if a parent has voluntarily placed a child in the care .of the department and desires its discharge, the parent should make application to the Director. The Director could grant the application or, if he considered that it was not in the interests of the child, he could make application to a children's court for an order placing the child in care and protection. If the Director has not made such an application within one month the child is discharged automatically.

In this procedure, the Director will, of course, have to present his case and the reasons why he considers the application should not be granted. On the other hand, the parents will have an equal right to place their case before the Children's Court and contest the Director's application.

The situation will be somewhat the same with regard to committed children and the Bi11 will give the parents the right to approach the court making the committal order for a variation or the revocation of such order. In these circumstances, the Director will, of course, state his case should he consider that the order should not be varied or revoked.

The opportunity has also been taken to modernise the law with regard to the pro~ tection of children, and penalties for offences involving cruelty or i11~treatment of children will be increased. The age at which a per· son, not being a parent, guardian, or relative, can have a child in his home without the permission of the department will be raised from under six to under 10, and the wide cover of the present law will be modified to exempt as far as possible arrangements involv­ing friends helping one another in temporary absences of parents. The extension of the ages from six to 10 is considered necessary in order that there should be some control over private fostering. Just as children are placed in institutions and forgotten, so child~ ren can be placed in private homes and for­gotten. It is a far more difficult task to police and control private fostering than fostering in institutions.

The foundation of family life is the respon­sibility of parents to each other and to their children. The legal basis of parent-child relations is expressed in our Guardianship and Custody of Infants Act originally passed in 1891, and follows the pattern which has come down to us over the centuries forming our way of life. It is a law that must be

part of any children's code and, although its principles are sound, there are certain aspects which require consideration, particu­larly jurisdiction.

Jurisdiction in relation to guardianship and custody has been vested inherently in the Supreme Court, and it is agreed that this must be preserved. However, Supreme Court procedures are costly and the time of the court is taxed. Not all guardianship and custody cases are complex. There are some, particularly those not involving property, that could, without risk, be determined by a lower court. Magistrates already have some aspects of custody jurisdiction under the Mainten­ance Act, and I do not see that it would be unreasonable to give to lower courts limited jurisdiction under the Guardianship and Custody of Infants Acts.

There are known cases of children's wel~ fare being jeopardised because parents have not the financial resources to take legal pro­ceedings to determine matters of custody. The Director of State Children is quite often placed in a situation where he is the centre of dispute between parents. The Director is thereby placed in awkward situations in endeavouring to be fair to all parties but at the same time acting in the best interests of the child.

The committee went very carefully into this phase of children's welfare, and it recom­mended limited jurisdiction for Children's Courts along the lines of the 1925 amend­ment of the British Guardianship and Custody of Infants Act.

This recommendation has been very care­fully examined by the Government and by its legal advisers, and it has been decided to follow in general the British amending Act of 1925, and give Children's Courts, constituted by magistrates and not justices of the peace, limited jurisdiction in guardian­ship and custody in respect of children under 17 years of age, excluding cases involving property, and preserving the overall jurisdic­tion of the Supreme Court.

I feel that the relevant provision in the Bill will prove to be in the interests of any child concerned in a guardianship or custody difficulty. These provisions will not endanger the basic principles of guardianship and custody and the rights of the Supreme Court. However, they will be helpful to the depart~ ment in overcoming some of the awkward situations involving custody which arise from time to time.

Another feature of the care of children to which my attention has been directed is the operation of day-care centres, and there have been strong recommendations from organisations, such as the Creche and Kinder­garten Association, for some form of control over these centres, particularly when they are not conducted by trained people. As hon. members know, day~care centres have mushroomed throughout the State and in many instances people conducting them have no qualifications. They are required to comply only with the by-laws of local

Children's Services Bill [9 SEPTEMBER) Children's Services Bill 397

authorities regarding housing and sanitation. Apart from that, there are no other requirements.

The committee, after going fully into this matter, recommended that standards should be laid down for day-care centres. Such centres in New South Wales must register with the Child Welfare Department and, in view of this and the representations which have been made to me, provision will be made in the Bill for power to regulate the operation of day-care centres and to lay down standards on a State-wide basis. Responsibility for administering these regula­tions will remain, as at present, with the local authority.

If this principle is accepted, it is my intention to have discussions with the Creche and Kindergarten Association and kindred bodies as well as with local authorities in regard to the drafting of regulations. It is not a matter, in a State of Queensland's dimensions, that can be handled from a central State department, although this is the case in New South Wales. I am informed that that State is experiencing difficulties because of the volume of work, which has involved the setting up of facilities to register and police the regulations. It is in my opinion a local responsibility, and I am quite con­fident that if the matter is left with local authorities they will see that the standards are maintained and there will be dayMcare centres in which the public can have every confidence.

I have endeavoured to outline the reasons for the introduction of the Bill and the main features that it wili cover. There is a con­siderable amount of detail contained in it, and it is my intention to give hon. members as much time as possible to study its contents before the second reading.

I take much pride in presenting the Bill because an objective has been achieved and a measure presented that will give this State a code of children's care and rights in line with modern principles and equal to that of any country in the world.

Like the Adoption of Children Act, 1 do not consider that this Bill involves political issues. It is a Bill on which there should be a full and frank discussion. As hon. members wiiJ appreciate, in a task of this nature, par­ticularly as it embodies new and wider features of child care, experience and changing circumstances will no doubt from time to time necessitate variations and amendments.

The Bill recognises the child as a citizen, giving it protection within its own family and rights shou:Id its welfare be endangered by its parents or within its family environment. H will place a very heavy responsibility on the department, particularly its Director. It will place also a heavy responsibility on the Courts, particularly the ChHdren's Courts, and magistrate·s will need to gain a very deep understanding of children. I am confident,

however, that the powers given to the courts and the Director will be used with care and discretion and in the interests of the children.

•I therefore commend the Bill to the Committee.

Mr. HOUSTON (Bulim<ba) (3.42 p.m.): The Opposition will natural!Iy be very pleased to give the Bill its full and earnest con­sideration. In the firs-t place, I should like to apologise for the absence of the Leader of the Opposition. Unfortunately he is not here to reply to the Minister, as he is attending to official matters elsewhere. He will, of course, take his place in the debate at the second~reading stage.

I believe that this is the first Bill presented by the Minister. Naturally he has our congratulations on his elevation to the Ministry.

The policy of the Australian Labour Party has always revolved round the family and the welfare of the people, so that when legis­lation designed to improve the lot of young people in our community is introduced, the Labour Party is intere·sted and wHI give full co-operation and assistance. In the course of the debate, contdbutions from this side of the Chamber wili be made with a view to improving the legislation rather than endeavouring to criticise the Government.

Mr. Davies: We were just as interested before 1957, too.

Mr. HOUSTON: That is quite true. I regret that the Minister in his introductory speech saw fit to indicate that if hon. members opposite had not become the Government no action would have been taken to improve the lot of the children. The Minister began by saying that this matter should -be approached on a non-party basis. I do not think anyone on either side of the Chamber would suggest that a matter as important as this should be approached on a political basis. Although the Minister suggested that it should not he dealt with as a political matter, I feel that he must have had in his mind a wish to approach it politicaJly. He said that prior to the GovernM ment's coming to office little was done for the beneft of the children, and he went on to say that the previous Government allowed the State Children Department to get into a very sorry state. It is rather strange to find on reading the annual reports of the then Director in 1957 and 1958 that no criticism was made of the Government's administra­tion of the department. Those reports di-d not offe-r any important suggestions for the improvement of the department other than those that were necessary because of the passing of time.

When the late Dr. Noble p-resented his departmental Estimates in this Chamber for the first time, in the session of 1958, he did not even mention the State Children Department.

398 Children's Services Bill [ASSEMBLY] Children's Services Bill

:Mr. Ramsden: He was a very charitable man. He could not find anything good to say about it.

Mr. HOUSTON: If the hon. gentleman had had any reason to criticise the former Labour Government, which had then been out of office for only 12 months, he would have taken the opportunity to do so and probably rightly so. Although Dr. Noble ~ad much to say about his ideas for improvM mg other sectiOns of the portfolio under his control, he did not say one word for or again~t the State Children Department. I take It from that that he was quite happy with the way in which the department had been administered, at both the ministerial and departmental levels.

Mr. Ramsden: He did not have unlimited time to talk about all the faults of hon. members opposite.

Mr. HOUSTON: I am sorry that the hon. member for Merthyr has made that ridicul­ous statement. He knows, as any hon. member who takes an interest in the affairs of this Chamber knows, that a Minister has as much time as he wants and can enter the debate at any time. The hon. member's interjection makes it obvious why he gained Liberal Party selection to contest Merthyr only by the skin of his teeth and why so many others wanted to unseat him.

I should be failing in my duty as a mem­ber of this Assembly and as a person who has had some dealings with the State Child­ren Department if I did not pay a tribute to the wonderful work of the officers of that department over the eight years that I have had the privilege of being in touch with them. I do not know of any other Govern­ment department in which there are officers who are so understanding and so willing to assist not only members of Parliament but also those who are in need of assistance. I can say with all sincerity that, thanks to their efforts. the Act has been administered with understanding. The men in the department have a fatherly outlook; the women under­stand the point of view of other women.

It must be made clear that~ under the proposed Bill, the State Children Department will cover two entirely different types of young people. First, there are the young people who require assistance through no fault of their own, and it is these for whom I have the greatest sympathy. Some children have had the misfortune to lose their father and have had to rely entirely on their mother's income and on her ability to provide for them. Naturally, children such as that are under a great handicap, and my exper~ ience is that they have been treated very humanely by the department. However I think that, over the years, greater finan;ial assistance could have been provided for them, and I shall probably have more to say on that subject at the second·reading stage. Also in this category are children both of whose parents are alive, and who, therefore, have not lost parental Jove but have to receive State aid because the father

is an invalid who cannot work or an older person who is on the pension. These child­ren also are in a category that has to be helped.

I do not agree with the Minister that there has. been, in later years at any rate, any looking down the nose, as it were at children who receive aid from the s'tate and who attend our schools. I know quite a number of them and I feel that their fellow children accept them without any thought that they are State children. I think that any stigma attaching to a State child has almost disappeared as the years have gone by. I hope it vanishes completely in time because I do not think we can afford to have any sections of our community segregated by terminology.

The Minister also criticises the previous administration for its lack of progress. It seems strange to me that although this inquiry was commenced in 1961 under the chairmanship of Mr. Dewar and brought down a report in July. 1963, it has taken until September, 1965, for the Government to do anything about it. That should not have been the case if things were as bad as the Minister has painted them. I regret that the Minister has tried to do some window­dressing in his introduction of this legislation.

Mr. Hanlon: It has been tossed about by three Ministers, too.

Mr. HOUSTON: That is so. I can assure the Minister that he need not worry. The Opposition will not take advantage of his political thoughts in its attitude to this Bill.

The other group of children we have to consider are those who have had the misfor­tune to come into conflict with the law through some action on their part. Over the years these children have been a problem. They are a problem, not only under Labour Governments, but under this Government and those in other States and countries. I trust and hope-I am sure the whole of the Opposition does-that this Bill, through its legislative power, will overcome some of these problems. I hope we will be able to find in the Bill an answer to the problem posed by these young people who have gone outside of the law and who are misfits in our community. I trust that, as a result of it, they will be brought back to being useful citizens. These young people are the parents of tomorrow, and unless their weaknesses are corrected they will be bad examples to their own children and we will again have the vicious circle of problem parents having problem children because they themelves do not know how to overcome their own weaknesses. I trust that the Department of Children's Services, as it will be known, will function in such a way as to overcome these problems.

The Minister said that acts of vandalism will be covered by the Bill in such a way that the young person who commits such an act will be required to pay something in restitution. This is a matter that has been exercising the minds of many citizens

Children's Services Bill [9 SEPTEMBER] Children's Services Bill 399

for a long time and the Opposition will look at the provision very closely to see how it will operate. Motor vehicles have been mentioned, so I will take them as an example. We all realise that when young people take a motor vehicle and do untold damage to it the owner has bitherto, in many cases, borne the whole of the loss.

Mr. Aikens: I hope this does not apply only to cars.

Mr. HOUSTON: I hope not. In his speech the Minister mentioned cars. I take it that he was giving a typical example of an object of high value that could be substantially damaged in a short time.

The supervisory system mentioned by the Minister is very important. In choosing supervisom I hope not only academics are selected. A very important feature of look~ ing after and caring for young people is to have understanding. Although a certain amount of academic knowledge is required to make a person proficient in looking after young people, it is even more important that he have understanding and can win their confidence. Unless he can do that, they will not accept his help.

Why do so many young people go wrong? Many young people who require assistance would rather hang around corners or outside fish bars than take part in organised or any other sort of active sport. Many of them would rather go for a ride in a stolen motor car than attend a school to learn a craft or trade. Why are they made that way? I have read many books on the subject and heard many ideas put forward. Unfortunately, even though these ideas are put into practice, the problem never seems to be solved. Indeed, in many countries of the world the problem is becoming more difficult.

I often wonder whether the problem goes back to primary education. I do not intend to use this debate to be critical of the system of education here. Going back over the years, irrespective of the Government, I feel that some teachers have classed some children as failures because they did not display academic ability in their early years. Conse~ quently they allowed them merely to drift along, with the result that when they were 14 or 15 years of age, when they should be highly receptive to academic studies at high­school level, all they wanted to do was to leave school.

Many factors enter into it, including lack of encouragement in the home by parents or ~uardians, lack of understanding by the teacher in the child's earlier years at school and, perhaps more important, the large num­ber of children in lower classes resulting in teachers not having sufficient time to analyse each child properly or understand it suffici­ently to make it receptive to instruction.

Even at a very early age there are children who are considered to be academically behind their fellow pupils, and as time goes by they fall further and further behind. If they ~annot shine academically, quite often they

have not the physical capacity to shine in the sporting world. It requires a lot of initiative to become efficient in the various sports and they lose initiative, but they feel that they must become proficient in some field and, unfortunately, too often it is in the leadership of others of a similar type. No matter how hard one may try to get them interested in sport they do not want to be involved. One lad admitted to me that he was frightened to join a local sports club which I had suggested to him. He said, "If I go there I will not be nearly as good as the others." He was afraid to take his part in the organisation.

I hope that those who take over the handling of these young people will be able to get through to them that they can still enjoy life and be an asset to themselves and the community without being leaders. In any community it is only the very few who are privileged to lead; the great majority have to be part of the team. Many of our young people are not prepared to accept the idea that it is necessary to be part of a team. If this Bill ensures that young people who have broken the law conform to the way of life that we have established, it will do some good.

We must look for the causes at the early stages. I suggest we should examine the number of pupils in classes at primary schools and reduce class sizes so that the teachers may get to know the children indi~ vidually and understand them, and thus help them in that way.

The proposed increased jurisdiction of the Children's Court should be investigated. I agree with the Minister that some young people love publicity. If they see their names or actions in print they think they have achieved something. I take it that it is intended that, except in certain circumstances details of proceedings in the Children's Court will not be published. 1 regret that the Press in this State, particularly in Brisbane, publicise the misdeeds of our young people far more than they publicise their good deeds. We know that for every bad youth, or problem youth. there are 500 or 600 good ones about whom we hear nothing. When we pick up a newspaper we very rarely see anything about the sporting activities of school foot­ball, cricket and tennis clubs, and girls' clubs.

If one is interested in the schools, how often can one find in the Thursday papers the results of the various school fixtures? How often can we read about our young people who have done something worth while? We hear about it only through some­one who happens to know of the circurn~ stances. With any Bill that is designed to look after our young people it is necessary for the community as a whole, particularly the newspapers and other news media to co-operate much more fully than in the Past They can publicise the good things our young people do, and those who have not done well can be dealt with through the various channels that are provided.

400 Children's Services Bill [ASSEMBLY] Children's Services Bill

At present, no action can be taken to make a parent who leaves a child to the care of the other parent or of someone else accept his responsibilities. Hon. members who have come into contact with broken families have found that if one parent, par.ticularly the father, has deserted the famHy, the hardships suffered by those deserted are such that they would wonder whether the deserting party can be human. Any action that can be taken to bring such a person to justice and make him accept his responsibilities, both financial and moral, would be welcomed.

The Opposition will be pleased to examine the legislation and give it earnest consideration.

Mr. AIKENS (Townsville South) (4.7 p.m.): It is indeed unfortunate that all the laws relating to the care and welfare of adopted children and what, up to the pas~ sage of this Bill, have been known as State children, are not incorporated in the one Act because we have to look at several Acts of Parliament to see whether children are protected in one way or another. Parliament will soon deal with a Bill to amend the Succession and Probate Duties Act, one of the provisions of which is to protect the succession rights of an adopted child in an intestacy or as a beneficiary under a will.

If a child under a certain age-I think it is 17-is brought before any court, his name cannot be published until he is brought before the Supreme Court. In that respect I remind the Committee of a case in North Queensland some years ago when a six-year~ old girl, going home from school, was hideously and diabolically murdered by a boy of 16 years. The case came before the stipendiary magistrate at Bowen. While the State Children Act prevented publication of the name of the boy who horribly murdered and mutilated that little girl, the name of the innocent victim was plastered and broadcast all over Australia. There was no protection in the law against the publication of the name of the victim, but there was protec~ tion in the law against the publication of the name of the criminal. That restriction existed until the case went to the Supreme Court. If the case had never gone to the Supreme Court-if, for instance, the magis~ trate had found that a prima-facie case had not been established and the alleged criminal bad been discharged-his name would never have been disclosed, and it would have been quite right not to disclose it in those circumstances. But the name of the six-year-old victim could have been, and indeed was, broadcast over the air, through the Press, and on television throughout the length and breadth of Australia, because of the shocking nature of her murder.

The Minister for Labour and Industry, who is introducing this Bill, the Minister for Justice, and other Ministers should look at the relevant legislation to see that not only

the alleged criminal under young victim shall be unnecessary publicity.

17 but also the protected from

Never at any time should the natural parents of an adopted child know the names of those who adopt it. That is why I believe that the State Children Department should be the sole adopting authority in the State. I know of two heart-rending cases where the opposite applied. One is the case of a young girl who during the war had an illegitimate child in Townsville and voluntarily had it adopted by a very reputable couple in that city.

Later the girl married a very fine young man. In the meantime the couple who had adopted the little boy, who grew up to be a very lovely lad, moved to Brisbane. The mother, who was still in Townsville and married, kept writing to the people who had adopted her boy asking them to send him back to her to have a holiday of six weeks or a month two or three times a year. They agreed to the request, and, knowing I was returning to Townsville on the same plane, they brought the boy to Eagle Farm so that I could look after him on the trip. The little boy was heartbroken. He did not know his mother in Townsville; he knew only the loving couple who had adopted him as a babe in arms. He cried pitifully. I took him aboard the plane, and by the time we got going he brightened up and I was able to comfort him a little.

When we reached Townsvil1e there was a much more heart-rending scene. There was the mother, who was a good woman, waiting with her husband on the tarmac at Garbutt airfield, and the little boy held on to my arm and would not let go. He knew me because I had known him in Townsville when he was a little boy. There was his mother and little Tommy-he had the same name as I have--crying and not wanting to go to his natural mother. Finally I prevailed upon him to do so and, because his mother loved him, I suppose he had a pleasant holiday with her.

On my return to Brisbane from Townsville I got in touch with the people who had adopted him and said, "Don't ever let little Tommy go back again. A couple more trips like that and he will be a nervous and emotional wreck." That was a case in which the mother is a good woman and those who adopted the child are good people. In spite of that, the child became, as it were, the emotional rope in a tug of war between the two parties.

On another occasion a young woman in Townsville gave birth to an illegitimate child, and the child was adopted by a very reputable couple in Townsville. In this case, the natural mother turned out to be a no-hoper. Every time she got drunk she would go round to the house occupied by the couPle who had adopted her child and put on a "tragedy queen" act. She would start crying in the taxi before she arrived and would weep and wail from the front gate

Children·s Services Bill [9 SEPTEMBER] Children's Services Bill 40L

to the front steps, and the little child would run in terror from her and hide under the bed. Finally the child's adopted father had to resign from a perfectly good job in Towns­ville and the family had to move to a southern State to get away from the unwel­come attentions of the drunken natural mother of the child.

I could quote dozens of similar cases, as I suppose every hon. member could. My experience has led me to believe very strongly that the natural parents of children who are adopted should have no knowledge of who have adopted them. It is, I suppose, known to the Minister and all others inter­ested in State children as we know them that most of them are illegitimate. Their mothers have had them and are sometimes only too pleased to get rid of them. They hand them over to the State Children Department and they are adopted.

I am not playing politics on this subject. I have directed attention to this matter on several occasions, and other hon. members have done likewise. It is to the credit of the Government that when an illegitimate child grows up and obtains a birth certificate no longer is the word "illegitimate" splashed right across it. I was astonished that this was allowed to remain in force for so long­again I am not playing politics-because we had a Government here that was, I suppose, to the best of its endeavours, representing the working class, and in nine cases out of ten it is working~class girls who have illegitimate children.

Of course, we have a certain wowseristic section in our community, the type of people who were responsible for banning the African ballet because the performers wanted to dance bare from the midriff up--those who are referred to as the frustrates and wowsers -who believe that the illegitimate child's mother should be punished and who also believe-to their disgrace, I should say­that the innocent child should be punished. I do not care what views they have about the mother or the father of an illegitimate child, but I do not believe that the sins of the parents should be visited on the children. Unfortunately, the sins of the parents-if they are sins-were visited on the children to the extent that every time a child went to the Registrar*General's office to get a birth certificate, the word "illegitimate" was splashed right across it for the whole world to read.

I did not agree with the Minister's state~ ment that there is a certain amount of dis­crimination or prejudice against State chil­dren. I know that when they go to school some of the other children might regard them with prejudice, but children are naturally cruel. If a sick child or a mentally deficient child goes to school, some of the other chil­dren will turn against it in the same way­anyone who knows anything about the animal world will know this-as healthy animals will turn against a sick animal or healthy birds will turn against a sick bird.

It seems to be one of the animalistic traits that civilisation, unfortunately, has not been able to eradicate from human beings.

Mr. Ramsden: It is very like being in here --dog eat dog.

Mr. AIKENS: Anyone who tried to eat the hon. member for Merthyr would have to be a good old bone chewer, because there is not much meat on the hon. member's bones.

Apart from the small wowseristic section of the community to which I have referred, I have never known anyone to have any prejudice against a State child. In fact, when the big trade unions hold their annual pic­nics, as nearly all of them do, or various other organisations hold public functions, or anything of that nature is on in Townsville, arrangements are made to take the crippled children, the sub~normal children and the orphan children and give them the day of their lives. Rather than there being a pre­judice against State children, I have found in my adult life and my public life that there is a prejudice in favour of them.

I wish to pay a tribute to the officers of the State Children Department. I have worked with them for many years. As a matter of fact, I came in touch with the State Children Department over 50 years ago, when I attended one of the first four State high schools that were established in Queens­land, and when, indeed, I created a little bit of history by being the first pupil enrolled at the Charters Towers High SchooL I could not have continued with my studies at the high school if my mother had not received assistance from the State Children Depart* ment in connection with the books that I required for my education there. It was just a matter of my getting a note from the head­master and taking it along to Wilmetts, the big stationery store in Gill Street, Charters Towers, and I got not only an the books I required but also all the pencils, pens, rub* hers, and everything else.

As I said, my association with the State Children Department goes back over 50 years. and I know that the officers of the department are often, if I may say so, the meat in the sandwich between two warring parents. They must not only have a know­ledge of the law; they must also have a very profound knowledge of human nature and a wisdom that is not possessed, perhaps, by many other bureaucrats. I remember the time when a dirty old homosexual who was a fairly prominent man-sometimes promi­nent men in the community are the worst homosexuals-asked me to assist him in securing the adoption of a young boy he had picked up in the street at Charters Towers. I did not know at that time that he was a "homo". I knew him only as one of our prominent and leading citizens. I went along to have a look at the flat he was occupying with the young boy. I saw as I walked through it that there was only one bed in it, and it was a double bed. I called on the then Director of the State Children Department and asked him

402 Children's Services Bill [ASSEMBLY] Children's Services Bill

about it. He waited for me to talk and I waited for him, and he told me that the State Children Department knew all about this old homosexual and had no intention of allowing him to adopt that young boy. I told the Director of the State Children Depart­ment what I knew. So, as I 'Said, the officers of the department need to have a Proven knowledge of human nature.

a parent who has a motor car. I really think there is justification for aid in some cases in which the State Children Department has declined aid to a parent or to children because the parent has a motor car. The a~titude of both the previous Government and this Government is that State aid is granted only so that the children can enjoy a reasonable standard of living and a reason­able standard of education. To use the language of the ordinary man in the street, State aid should the put either into the belly of the child onto the back of the child, or into the 'mind of the child. It should not be used ·to put petrol and oil into or tyres onto a motor car for driving around the town. Consequently, if any parent ca.n afford to run a motor car-and I doubt 1f the oldest "bomtb" can be run for less than £4 or £5 a week-the State Children Depart­ment has always considered that the parent or parents do not need State aid and has not provided it. But, as I have said, I know of cases where perhaps it was necessary for a mother to have a motor car because of the illness of one child or for some other reason, but the State Children Department _has refused to ch~nge its attitude and admittedly, as I say, m a general sense I ~an see some justification for it.

On the other hand, there are irresponsible parents who are only too happy to have their children taken over by the State Children Department. It was a joke around the town some time ago when a certain incident occurred within the hearing of quite a number of people in Townsville. It con~ cerns a couple in Townsville. I do not know how many children they have now, but at the t•ime of which I speak I think they had nine, and seven of them had been taken over by the State Children Department. . I was talking to a numtber of people outstde the Regent Theatre one Sunday night. We were just waiting to go into one of m~ famous Sunday nioht Regent Theatre meetmgs, and this father ~ode past on his bike. Incidentally, he had no light on the bike, but that did not worry him. He sang out in a loud voice so that a couple of hundred people could hear "Tom they took another one of my kids' last week, but it doesn't matter; there are plenty more where he came from."

That is the attitude of irresponsible parents who are quite happy to see the St~te Ch~l~r.en Department relieve them of the responstb-1hty of rearing and caring for their children. There are not many of those parents in the community. Nevertheless, there are some. Of course; the State Children Department must get used to them just as they must get used to all the other problems that con­front them.

As happens to me, I suppose it happens to other members of Parliament that they have people coming to t~em ~nd asking them. to get State aid for their children. We question them and they tell us their circumstances, and we are able to go to the local Director of State Children and ask that assistance be rendered to them. They come along and say, "I have been told that I am entitled to State aid," and we have to tell them that they are not. A person is not entitled t~ State aid as a right. We have to explain that State aid is a concessional grant from the Government to assist a parent to rear children in at least a reasonable standard of comfort and to give them a reasonable education. Then, invariably they say, "I have been to the State Children Department and they won't give me State aid because I have a motor car."

We have then to tell them that that was the policy of the previous Government and it is the policy of this Govefnmen t. I concede that, but there are some cases put forward for State aid in which I consider there is some justification for State aid for

The Minister said that when there was a dispute over a child the matter could be referred to the Magistrates Court. I think I can speak now from the viewpoint of every hon. member. How often have we seen parents who have been irreconcilably separated-when there has been no possible chance of ever bringing them together again? There is an old saying, "Heav'n has no rage like love to hatred turn'd." How often have we seen the case of two people who once loved each other and who went before the altar, the C.P .S., or somewhere else and swore eternal vows of mutual love, friendship and affection and who now regard each other with an undying hate? ~nfortunately .the children become the meat m the sandwich. Unfortunately, too, we find that when the childen have been handed over to the State Children Department the Director becomes the punchinr:r bag for both parents. There is a case in Townsville now where the children of a marriage have been well looked after by the State Children Department for some years. The father, who has tak~n up with another woman, wants the children handed over to him. The mother, who is living and working in Townsville-a very respectable woman in a very good position­objects to the chi1dren being handed over to the father. Here again there is what I always regard as a rather deplorable aspect, because religion has become an issue in this case. The Director of the State Children Department is trying to act as Solomon. He is trying to solve the whole problem to the satisfaction of both parents, knowing that he cannot possibly do so. He knows that if he gives the children to the mother he fails out

Children's Services Bill [9 SEPTEMBER] Children's Services Bill 403

with the father; if he gives them to the father he falls out with the mother. If he retains the children in the care of the St3.ie Children Department he falls out with both the mother and the father.

1\'lr. Bennett: A good lawyer would reconcile the parents.

:Mr. AIKENS: Unfortunately we have no good lawyers in the Chamber. I know one lawyer who would not hesitate to rob the parents-legally rob them, of course.

The 1EMPORARY CHAlRMAN: (Mr. Carnpbell): Order!

Mr. AIKENS: Let us not have any flippancy or facetiousness about this. I should not like to be the Director of the State Children Department. I should not like to try to solve some of the problems that are put before him. In all seriousness, I am sure that neither the hon. member for South Brisbane nor the hon. member for Windsor would like to be in his position when some of these involved family problems are laid on his desk and he has to do the best he possibly can about them.

It is a pity that the whole Jaw covering State children has not been consolidated and put into one Act so that when Parliament is dealing with State children I could go down to the shed where I keep all my statutes and look at just one instead of having to look at half a dozen to find out which applies to the State child. I hope that will come soon. If it does, and if we can simplify the laws dealing with State children, most of our lawyers will go out of business, which will be a very good thing for the State and its citizens.

I commend the Minister for having brought down this legislation. I assure him that I have the interests of the children at heart. Again I think I can speak for every member of Parliament. We find it difficult to impress upon parents that the only concern of the State Children Department is the best interests of the child. Rightly, it is not concerned with the interests of the mother, the father, or anybody else. The State Children Department always has acted-in my knowledge and experience, at any rate-and I hope always will act, in the best interests of the child.

I had a case recently following the death of a man who was killed at work. There was no doubt that he was killed at work and that his widow was entitled to compen~ sation. When she came to me it was a rel~tively simple matter to fix up the compen­satwn for her. Then, of course, the Treasurer or the General Manager of the State Govern­ment Insurance Office wrote and told the widow that she would get portion of the compensation but the remainder of it would be placed in trust for the use and benefit of the children. I then had the widow's

father-in-law ranting and raving on my door­step, wanting to know why the widow did not get the lot. He said it was her money, that she was the lawful widow of the deceased, and consequently the money should be paid to her so that she could pay off the house and not have a debt around her neck, and so that she could rear the children in comfort and convenience. I suggested that, being a young and attractive woman and the biological urge being what it is. it was more than likely that she would marry again. Then, having married again, she would have children to her second husband; if she died, her second husband. undoubtedly, would inherit the house and whatever was left of the deceased husband's compensation payment.

Mr. Bennett: That does not follow.

Mr. AIKENS: I am saying that it could follow. I am sure that the hon. member will agree that it could happen.

I then said, "How would the children of the man who was killed at work be placed? Their equity in his compensation payment would have disappeared entirely." To the credit of the widow, when I explained it to her, she said, "I can now see the sense in the long letter that the Treasurer wrote to you, and that you sent on to me." However, the father-in-law could not be convinced that it was right. I discovered later why he could not be convinced. He wanted to take the widow out to Cluden-he was a punting maniac-to blow all the compensation pay~ ment on the racehorses.

Mr. Bennctt: Doesn't the father·in-1aw vote for you?

Mr. AIKENS: I do not know whether he votes for me or not but, being that type of man, I should expect him not only to vote for the A.L.P. but also to be a prominent member of it.

(Time expired.)

Mr. MELLOY (Nudgee) (4.32 p.m.): As this Bill purports to promote the welfare of the young people of this State, it is one of the most important Bills to come before us. I am sure that members of the Opposition will view it in that light. I have no doubt that during the second8 reading stage it wi11 receive the attention it deserves from most members of the Opposition and, perhaps, numerous members of the Government.

Before getting on to what I have to say, I should like to refer to a statement made by the hon. member for Townsville Sou!h· .App~rently he is about 30 years behmd m h1s knowledge of certain things. because he said that the imprint of illegitimacy on birth certificates was only recently removed. This imprint was removed from birth certificates in 1935, under a Labour Government.

1\tr. Aikens: No fear it wasn't.

404 Children's Services Bill [ASSEMBLY] Children's Services Bill

Mr. MELLOY: I have checked on the hon. member's statement and it is up to him to check on mine if he does not agree with it.

We appreciate the need for a good Bill to cater for our young people. Firstly, I should like to pay a compliment to Mr. Cl ark and Mr. Butler, and the officers of their department. I have had a good deal of experience of the tremendous job they undertake. They do an excellent job within the limits of their powers.

I have had numerous cases in which parents, particularly widows~ have considered it to be a stigma for their children to become State children. When I have suggested to them that they should seek the aid of the department in having a dependent child made a ward of the State, they have been very reluctant to do so despite all the benefits that accrue. In some cases they have refused to take action purely because of the fear of a stigma attaching to the child. It is difficult to convince some young mothers who have been deserted by their husbands of the advantages and assistance they would receive if their children were made wards of the State.

Mr. Ramsden: A good deal of fear has been caused by the wording of the application form.

1\'Ir. MELLOY: That could create the fear that they would lose their children. The Minister could investigate that matter. Possibly there could be a variety of forms for different categories of children. It might induce more parents to seek the assistance of the department.

RecentlY I visited the Magistrates Court on a few mornings to observe the proceedings. I saw young people who were to ail intents and purposes ordinary children. Obviously their upbringing had gone amiss over the years and at 19 to 20 years of age they found themselves facing charges in court. To a great extent we are all born alike, and it is perhaps only environment that leads us along different paths. The economic position of the parents also has a great deal to do with what happens to the children as they grow up. If both parents are working there is no control over the child. In many cases it is necessary for a young wife to continue working, and when children come along there is a temptation for her to continue working and to put the children into a child~minding centre or kindergarten. In many cases that is how the damage is done. The Government should consider some form of assistance to young mothers.

Mr. Smith: Don't you think it is fantastic to claim that because the mother works the child becomes a delinquent?

Mr. MELLOY: I suggest that until the children are past the baby stage there is a temptation for the mother to continue working in order to get extra money. In

different child-minding centres I have seen many children of two, three, and four years of age whose mothers were working.

I recently visited a number of child-minding centres. I was making a survey because we were considering the establishment of a child-minding centre or kindergarten at Banyo and I wanted information on the running of them. I found that many working mothers put their children into these centres. Those controlled by private individuals were con­ducted under conditions that were absolutely unbelievable. They were poorly supervised, inadequately staffed, and inadequately equipped. The children at one centre that I visited were allowed to roam outside its confines. The big gate was wide open and about three or four children rushed out to meet me as I arrived. There was one woman in charge of about 30 children whose ages ranged from one to four years. She had to pay particular attention to the very young ones, and consequently those a little older were free to run wild round the area and even out onto the road if they wished.

On speaking to the person in charge I found that some of the children came from as far away as Kelvin Grove and other places on the other side of Brisbane because fathers find that they are unable to get accommoda­tion for their children in their own districts. So great is the demand for child-minding centres that this is happening in Brisbane today.

As long as centres are privately owned and run for profit I think these conditions wiU continue. I may say that the child­minding centres conducted by various organisations and local committees are a different proposition. They are well run, and in most cases have adequate trained staff. I do not think that those run for profit similar to the ones to which I have referred are very desirable in the community. I am not con­demning all privately conducted child-minding centres because I know of some that are well administered. I believe, however, that until some way is found of providing Government­controlled child-minding centres undesirable ones will remain. I should hate to see any child of mine left in the care of some of those that I have seen.

I should now like to say a few words con­cerning kindergartens and child-care centres. I know of some cases in which child-care centres are conducted by organisations that also conduct kindergartens. To conform to the requirements of the Creche and Kinder­garten Association, there has to be a sub­stantial dividing fence between the two parts of a combined centre, and the internal por­tions have also to be satisfactorily separated, with no connection between them

I wish to deal mainly with the need for kindergartens in the community and the high cost of establishing them. The need for them appears to be greatest in the poorer sections of the community. In the initial stages, at any rate, the money necessary for

Children's Services Bill [9 SEPTEMBER] Children's Services Bill 405

the establishment of a kindergarten in most cases has to be provided by the community, and if it cannot afford to erect a kindergarten to the required standard there is very little possibility of its becoming a reality. Con~ trol by the Creche and Kindergarten Asso­ciation is very desirable, but conditions rather hard to meet are imposed and a con­siderable amount of expenditure is required to meet the association's standards.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. Campbell): Order! The question of kinder­gartens is really a matter coming under the Education portfolio. I should like the hon. member to hring his remarks more into line with the outline of the proposed Bill given by the Minister in his introductory speech.

Mr. MELLOY: As pointed out by the hon. member for Belmont, the Minister did link the question of rehabilitation centres with the Bill. The notice of motion says that the Bill is designed to "safeguard and protect the well~being of the children and youth of the State through a comprehensive and coMordinated programme of child and family welfare.'' That covers quite an extensive field, and I should say that kindergartens are an essential element in the welfare of our children, particularly the very young children. At this stage kindergartens are controlled by the community, and organisations set up by the parents themselves care for the children. I am dealing with the cost to parents of the care and we·lfare of their children.

Subsidies certainly are paid by the Govern­ment to kindergartens, but they are paid only through the Creche and Kindergarten Association. Although this may be desirable be·cause of ·the conditions laid down by that association, a number of kindergartens may not wish to affiliate with it. In my op-inion, the department should lay down certain con­ditions for kindergartens and allow subsidies to be paid directly to them as long as the conditions are fulfilled. Some kindergartens are somewhat resentful at having to affiliate with the Creche and Kindergarten Associa­tion, as I said; but they are more or less force-d to because they cannot obtain the subsidy unless they do.

,Let me now turn to homes for children and pay a tribute to the two with which I am associated-the Tufnell Home, Nundah, and St. Vincent's Home, Nudgee. I do not wish to overlook the work done by the Salvation Army and other church bodies, but I have personal knowledge of the two institutions that I have mentioned. They have both done excellent work, and I know children from those homes who have become an asset to society and who, had it not been for the -dedicated work of those in charge of the homes and those who work in them, may have been a burden on society. The sisters at Tufnell Home and St. Vincent's Home are doing a wonderful jo'b under very

difficult circumstances. I know that St. Vincent's Home is about to promote an appeal for £20,000 to provide assistance for its work.

The work of youth clubs also plays a part in the weUare of the youth of the State. Youth clubs in Brisbane are having great difficulty in obtaining finance, and they are not getting the financial assistance from the Government that they deserve. This is in contrast with what is being done in southern States, particularly Victoria. In addition to Commonwealth assistance, the Victorian Government contributes over £100,000 a year to youth organisations in that State. We in Queensland apparently do not see the need for that, but the need is there and I think the Government should give consideration to the question of increasing assistance to youth clubs in this State.

I notice that you are shaking your head at me, Mr. Hooper, but 1 think this is relevant to the Bill. I know you have in mind that the predominating factor in the Bill is State children but I do not think the Minister takes that view.

We must give consideration to sporting bodies in the State, particularly as they affect the young people. Youth clubs sponsor all forms of sport, and when one takes into consideration the cost of sporting equipment, uniforms such as guernseys, trousers, shorts, boots and things of that nature, one can realise the tremendous burden it is for parents. If additional, or any, financial assistance is given to these youth associations, it will be money well spent. I commend to the Minister that he give consideration to the matter of giving greater financial assist­ance to the youth clubs of Queensland.

Ml'. HUGHES (Kurilpa) (4.52 p.m.): At the outset, I should like to congratulate the Minister and the officers of the department on being able to bring down a Bill which appears not only to meet a real need in our society today but tackles in a realistic manner some of the problems besetting the community generally. Some of those problems are vexed ones and the question is a personal one where the humanitarian aspect is pre­dominant. Because of that, it will at all times touch the hearts not only of those affected but of all people who have a love for their fellow men and for children.

The tenor of the discussion on this Bill will no doubt show that men in public places, including members of Parliament, have a sincere desire to serve the community in a way which reflects not only their feelings towards their fellow men but their affection for children.

I have on many ocGasions been involved in dealings with Mr. Clark and other officers of this department and I appreciate, as I am sure many other people do, their courtesy and conduct. Gone are the days when a stigma is applied to the State Children Department and State children. Today, because of a rather personal and humanitarian approach by Ministers of this

406 Children's Services Bill [ASSEMBLY] Children's Services Bill

Government and officers of the department, a personal and enlightened service has been introduced. Because of this attitude we have in our Child Welfare Department one that has the confidence and respect of the community. We must have this confidence and respect in the department~ and the State must do its job for the children in our midst in the most humanitarian manner possible.

I feel it would be wrong for me at this stage to canvass all aspects of this Bill because it has been brought about by the effiuxion of time and by hastening slowly. It has its genesis back in the days when the late Dr. Noble, Mr. Clark and others went overseas. If any trip brought results I believe this trip did, even though some mem~ bers of the Opposition do not agree that our responsible officers should go overseas.

Mr. Newton: No~one over here said that.

Mr. HUGHES: I accept the hon. member's assurance that it is a desirable practice. Unless we send people overseas we are not able to make comparisons or introduce new concepts.

By hastening slowly, the Government has been able to introduce a Bill which will have wide ramifications and desirable effects for generations to come. In these circum­stances, it wil1 be wise for me to select only one or two points in which I am interested and leave it until a later stage to go into the Bill in greater detail.

I should like to take up the plight of those who, through force of circumstances, have their children taken from them as neglected children. Generally speaking, this is against the concept of parenthood as we know it but, by the same rule, it happens quite frequently in the interests of the child. Up to this stage, if rehabilitated parents have gone to the State Children Department and made out a case for the return of their child the departmental officer has based his judg~ ment on what he has believed to be proper and humanitarian grounds. We are all individuals; we are all capable of making mistakes; we are not infallible. There could be occasions when parents feel that the deci­sion of the departmental officer is not justi­fied. Until now parents have had no redress. Under this Bill, for the first time parents will have a right of appeal against the deci­sion of these public servants. That is a good thing. If the Director thinks his decision is wise he will say, "No, it is in the interests of the child that we continue to care for it." But if the parent feels that such a decision is not justified he will have the right to be heard by an impartial and independent arbiter. That is a good thing in the interests of both the department and the child.

The operation of childhcare centres has come under discussion in the introduction of the Bill. Having been associated for so long with the Kuriipa Child Care Centre I have a very real and personal interest in this subject. I am one of the two trustees

of that care centre. I remember when it was commenced some years ago because of the need of the many working mothers around West End. The centre was established in the South Brisbane School of Arts building, but it was outmoded and was not a fit and proper place in which to continue to conduct the centre. A fund-raising campaign was launched. It was due to the realistic attitude and the help of this Government in granting a subsidy to that centre that we were able to get our plans brought to fntition. Prior to that there was no subsidy for the administra­tion and conduct of childhwelfare centres. We were able to put a case to the Government based on the fact that there were so many working mothe1·s and deserted wives in the area who, of necessity, had to earn a living for themselves and their children and who bad to have their children looked after some­where. The only place where it was possible for them to have their children cared for from early morning until their return from woPk was at the Kurilpa Child Care Centre.

Mr. Houston interjected.

Mr. HUGHES: We put in a return each month and a subsidy is paid according to the number of children in the centre.

Mr. Houston: That is still applying today?

Mr. HUGHES: Yes, we get it every month.

Mr. Houston: Does that apply to aH registered child~minding centres?

l\1r. HUGHES: I do not know that it does. We get it at Kurilpa because we put up a case which was recognised. It is recognised as a subsidy to assist us to continue to conduct the centre for the children of deserted or work­ing mothers. We can get up to £2,500 a year. With this subsidy we were able to apply to a bank for a loan to meet our costs of •building. It suited our needs at the time but we find now that we are turning people away. Mrs. Midwinter does a magnificent job. She is dedicated to her work. She and the members of the committee are terribly distressed when they have to turn people away, but there is a limit to the number of children they can accept. There must be a limit, because we do not want the centre overcrowded. Official standards are set by the department and we have to comply with them. We may have to look into the matter further in the future. I do not think this problem relates solely to West End. It could relate to areas repre­sented by the hon. member for Bulimba and other areas with similar problems.

Ther{l is a great problem with deserted wives, working mothers, deserted fathers. and unmarried mothers. We have some very peculiar and distressing cases. This is where the Federal Government and the State Government must get together. When a wife is deserted she must wait a statutory period before receiving social service benefits. She must first take action in court to get main~ tenance for herself and her children. This is only part of the problem. Many deserted

Children's Services Bill [9 SEPTEMBER] Children's Services Bill 407

wives really suffer, for winning the mainten­ance case is only half the battle. Even though they win the case it does not mean that the husband will pay. If the husband deserts the wife and does not pay maintenance through the court as ordered, the wife has to wait for social service payments. The husband may make some payments not on the scale prescribed, and the wife's social service pay­ments are reduced in proportion. In some cases virtually the entire social service pay­ment is lost because the husband may make a payment today and then make another payment after weeks or months. This creates terrible hardships, as sometimes a woman cannot go to work because of family circumstances.

This problem may not be entirely within the ambit of the department, but it relates to children and the department may have to give specific consideration to approaching the Federal Government to try to alleviate their terrible plight. Most mothers who work do not do so because they have a real desire to work. They work of necessity, in the family interest. I should say that 90 per cent. of working mothers work for their families. Probably a minority of 10 per cent. work for selfish motives, and there we find the neg~ lected children. I have no brief for people who work to keep up with the J oneses, or to get a better car, and so on, but I do have heartfelt concern for the genuine case-the deserted wife or unmarried mother, or the deserted father.

This Bill will help the child·care centres. We will be able to help the committees that run the centres, which in turn help the work~ ing mothers. I repeat that most mothers work not for luxuries but for necessaries.

Mr. Houston: The child is neglected because the mother has to go to work.

Mr. HUGHES: In some cases, that is so. Mr. Clark says that this happens frequently when both parents are working, and in some cases, from sheer neglect when the father is working and the mother is at home.

Many child~care centres are not conducted by trained people. After a detailed reading of the Bill, I shall deal with many other matters which could amount to criminal negligence. Some of the places being run privately as child~care centres are little better than Belsen, but because of necessity mothers who are desperate have to put their children there.

This does not apply only to Brisbane. I could quote similar instances at Mt. Isa and other places where the people conducting these centres cannot speak English. They have no real concern for safety, hygiene, or feeding. They have control of the children at an age when they can be affected by certain aspects of their care. There can be problems of a psychiatric nature, distress problems. or illness amongst the children. We need centres of a proper type, registered according to standards to be laid down, and

properly conducted with adequate safeguards against fire and accident, and isolation wards for sick children. The provision of such centres is a tremendous drain on the resources of local committees, which some­times cannot get the capital required for their building programmes. The Government will have to assist them. Mothers put their children into unauthorised, unregistered, backyard child-care centres because they are deserted and desperate, and must work.

The local authorities have fallen down badly on the job. They have authority at the moment to register these centres but they have no set standards. I do not know whether they think it is politically unpopular to step in--

Mr. Sherrington: It would be very difficult to police the unregistered ones.

Mr. HUGHES: I admit it would be hard to police every one of them. Complaints have been made to certain people in local authorities yet there has been no realistic approach to the problem by them. They adopt the attitude that the centres are better than none at aU, but I question the wisdom of that.

The Government will have to subsidise these centres. We need more of them. That would be a great step forward in assisting deserted wives and mothers and, in some cases, fathers. We would get a higher standard of centre.

As a result of this Bill. regulations will be laid down setting standards that the local authority will administer. This will be an incentive to local authorities, and I express the hope that having got the incentive and guidance, they will do the job properly. The Government must assist the committees if they can show that a centre is serving a real and worth~while need in the community. Many parents cannot afford to pay very much to have their children cared for, and I know only too well that it costs a lot of money to run these centres. There are people who pay up to £2 a week a child for this service, and there are many who, because of high rents and the high cost of living, are really battling to make ends meet on their take-home pay. They need assistance by the payment of subsidies to these centres.

This is a social problem and requires sympathetic consideration. I support the Minister and his officers and feel that at the second-reading stage other detailed aspects of the Bill can be more appropriately discussed. I feel that the Bill will have the wholehearted support of all hon. members and the general public.

Progress reported.

The House adjourned at 5.12 p.m.