Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

WEDNESDAY, 1 OCTOBER 1919

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

1064 Que~tions. [ASSEJ.\IBL Y.] Questions.

WEDNESDAY, 1 OCTOBER, 1919.

The SPEAKER (Hon. W. Lennon, Herbert) took the chaie at half-past 3 o'clock p.m.

QUESTIO~S.

FARMS FOR SOLDIER SETTLERS. 1\fr. l\10RGAN (Murilla) in the absence of

Mr. Corser, asked the Acting Premier-" 1. \Vhat is the total number of farms

transferred from the Agricultural Bank Act and Savings Bank Act to the Soldier Settlement Act of 1917?

'' 2. \Vhat is the total amount in­volved?"

The ACTING PREMIER (Hon. E. G. Theodore, Uhillagoe) replied­

.. 1. Fifty-one. "2. £10,542 Os. 9d."

Mt:NITION \VORKERS AS LAND SETTLERS.

Mr. MORGAN, in the absence of Mr. Corser, asked the Acting Premier-

,, 1. Has the Government been informed that the Commonwealth Government is prepared to advance the money required to munition and other war workers for 'cttlement on the land?

" 2. Has the State Government replied declining to include munition and other wae workers in its land settlement scheme, and for what reason?"

The ACTIXG PREMIER replied­.. 1. Yes. " 2. Ye'; not recommended by the

Land Settlement Committee. Further consideration is, however, being given to this matter."

GOYERNMENT'S LAND POLICY REGARDING MUNITION \YORKERS.

::\fr. PETRIE (1'oom bul), in the absence of Mr. Sizer. asked the Minister in Charge of Soldiers' Settlements-

" In furtherance of my question of 18th September, and his reply of 19th Sep­tember. to the effect that consideration was being given to the question of extend­ing to returned munition workers, and other war workers, the benefits of the Discharged Soldiers' Settlement Act, are the following answers given by Mr. Po:vnton to JI.'Ir. Mackay, member. for Lilley, in the Federal Parliament on 18th September, 1919, correct:-

1. Whether all the State Govern­ments have been informed that the Commonwealth Government is prepared to advance the money required to muni­tion and other war workers for settle­ment on the land ?

2. If so, has any reply been received from the Queensland Government, and what is the nature of the same?

Mr. Poynton : The answers to the hon. member's questions are as fol­low:--

1. Yes. 2. A reply has been received from the

Queensland Government declining to include munition and other war workers in its land settlement schemes."

The ACTI~G PREMIER replied-" I ref0r the hon. gentleman to the

answe1· given to question No. 2. That answer applies also to this question."

.WAGES FOR SUGAR-MILL WORKERS.

::\lr. G1JN=" (Carnart•on). in the absence of ::\lr. Swayne, asked the Treasurer-

" 1. Is it a fact that, notwithstanding the award of the court had placed it in the Central Division, the Bureau of Cen­tral Sugar-mills agreed to the wages and conditions awarded for the Northern Division being applied to. the employees in the Proserpine Mill?

" 2. If so, will not the increased cost of manufacture resulting from this con· cession to the Australian Workers' Union mean an increase in the cost of manu­facture. and a decrease in the money available to pay the grower for his cane?

" 3. Is it not reasonable to suppose that this yielding on the part of the bureau last 'season encouraged the Australiarr \Vorkers' 1Jnion to make a similar de­mand on the farmers this crushing, the giving way to \vhich) under an accom­panying threat of strike if not granted, means again a further increase in work­ing costs to be borne by the producer~"

The TREASURER (Hon. E. G. Theodme, Uhillagoe) replied-

" 1. Yes. "2 and 3. No such results are appre­

hended. The general manager of Goveril­ment central sugar-mills is of opinion that the concession will ensure industrial peace. and the economical working of the rnill in consequence."

ScHOLARSHIP ALLOWANCE.

l\ll'. O'SULLIVA~ (K en111rdy) asked the 80er<>tary for Public Instruction-

" In view of the increased cost of liYing, will the Government take into favourable consideration the question of granting the scholarship allowance to parents who'e incom<> is in excess of £156 per annum?"

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STR1JCTIO~ (Hon. J. Huxham, Buranda) replied-

" Tlw matter is being considered in connection with the framing of the Esti· mates for the current financial year."

PROTECTION OF ~ ATIVE BEARS AND 0POSSG:\!S.

Mr. GUN~ asked the Secretary for AgJi­culture and Stock-

" Considering that native bem·s and opossums are in many districts aln"os& extinct, will he take action to pre' ent the extermination of these very inte·est· ing anin1als? "

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTCBE replied-

"Ye~.''

CoxsTRUCTIOK oF SoLDIERS' Hmns.

Mr. KIRWAN (Brisbane) asked the Acting Premier-

" 1. Has his attention been c1lled T<) the following paragraph appear'ng in n Southern journal, namely:-

Questions. [l OCTOBER.] Questions. 1065

The Toronto correspondent of the ' Times' mentions, in the trade supple­ment of 14th June, that quotations have been asked by the Australian Soldiers' Housing Department for 60,000 doors, 120,000 sashes, .and 70,000,000 feet of flooring, within one year, with a similar quantity in the following four years, and a similar quantity of linings. These quotations are in competition with those from Scandinavia and the United States? "2. Will he inquire if the foreg·oing

statements are correct' " 3. W'ill he also make strong repre­

wntations to the Federal Government, and urge the necessitv of the construction of sol·diers' homes 'under the Federal housing scheme from Australian mate­rials, so that Australian industries mav be encouraged and employment found for Australians? " ·

The ACTING PRE~1IER replieJ­

" 1. Yes. ''2. Yes. "3. Yes."

RUXNING OF \VESTERN ~lAIL TRAIN.

::'.Ir. MORGAN asked the S<>cretarv for Railways- ·

" Owing to the continued late arrival of the \V estern mail in Brisbane. will he run the train express from Toowoomb[L, in order to provide reasonable travelling facilities for the \Vestern public? "

The SECRETARY FOR RAIL\VAYS replied-

" The late running of trains is caused by engines becoming defective through using b[Ld water. The \Ve•·tern train,; are not the only ones .affected. and to run the trains expre"s from Toowoomba would require engines which are not available at present."

'CSE OF TIVOLI COAL BY RAILWAY DEPART>!ENr.

Mr. PETRIE, in the !J-bsence of Mr. Sizer. asked the Secretary for Railways-

" 1. As the result of the recommenda­tion of the members of the Railway Royal Commission (Messrs. Dean. Kir­w~n, _and Cooper), was the supplying of T1voh coal to the Railwav Department stopped for a time? ·

"2. If so, has the supplying of coal now been resumed?

"3. Upon whose representation, and upon whose recommendation was such resu1n ption n1ade ? '' '

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS replied-

" 1. Yes. "2. Yes, but in considerably less quan·

tities. "3. Representations made by Colliery

Employees' Union to Premier on 7th :c\ov<•,11ber, 1918, and to Acting Minister on 25th February, 1919, who both agreed, m order to prevent 100 men being thrown out of employment. to continue order' until the men could be absorbed else­·where."

BORI~G FOR OIL AT ROMA.

Mr. 1100RE IAubigny), in the absence oi Mr. Elphinstonc', asked the Minister repr,,. senting the Secretary for Mines-

,, 1. Has the obstruction -been removed from the Roma oil bore?

'' 2. If not, what efforts arc being made to do ,;o?

" 3. \Vhat is the cost per week of the, present operations?

" 4. Seeing that British experts wil! shortly be co-operating in New Guinea with the Federal authorities on oil matters, will he consider the advisability of suspending the present operations, and the attendant expense, until sueh time ;,s the British experts' opinions may b_e obtained on the whole prospects of o1l Ooring at Roma? "

The ACTI:--.JG PREMIER replied­" No. "2. Efforts have been made, but so far

without success; further efforts are being made.

"3. Approximately, £10. "4. \V ill receive consideration."

CEXSORSHIP OF 110VI~G PICTURE FILM8.

::VIr. :YIOORE. in the absence of Mr. Elphin. stone, asked thP Home Secretary-

,, 1. In view of the fact that many undesirable moving pictures are screened in Qu<'cnsland. in spite of the fact that there is a Commonwealth censor of films, will he tak'!l into consideration the advisability of appointing a State board of censors. such as has been found neces­Farv in other State~?

,; 2. If such a board is formed, will he giye rt•presentation thereon to \vomen? n

The Hm.m SECRETARY (Hon. \Y. :!\J«Cormack, Cairns) replied-

.. 1 and 2. ::\1a ttcr will receive con­sid('ration.''

ScN~YBA~K SoLDIERS' SETTLEMENT.

:Mr. ~IOORE, in the absence of M:. ElphinstonP. asked the Secretary for Public I~ands-

" In reference to the soldiers' sett_le· ment at Sunnybank, in connection w1th which a large amount of voluntary labour was expended some two years ago to help to dear the land, will he state what are the intentions of the Govern mPnt with regard to- .

1. The erection of further houses? 2. The clearing and making of xoads.

etc.? 3. The laying on of water? 4. Generallv making the project a

model s<>ttlement, as originally in: tended?"

The ACTI:;\!G PRE::'.IIER replied-" 1. The erection of further houses is

being proct•cded with. '' 2 to 4. These matters are now receiv­

ing consideration."

Mr. SMITH (Mackay), without notice, asked the Acting Premier-

" Has his attention been directed to a paragraph appearing in last , week's

1066 Election~ Act [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

· vVorkBr,' and repub]i:;hed in yesteeday's ·Daily Standard,' in whit h it was stated that the Government of the Commonwealth 1vcre opening letter:-:; of pron1incnt Labour m"mbers? If so, will hP make a strong protest against ~uch an interfPrence \vith the corresponden<Je of citizens of this St<tte? "

'l'h<' ACTING PREMIER repliNl-" My attention has not bPeu called to

rhe matter, but, of eoursP. appropriat<' inquiries \vill he tnad('."

PAPER.

Thn following paper, laid on the table, was ordered to be printetl :-

="'inth annual report of the lJniversity of Queensland for the year 1918.

ORDERS FOR RETURKS. DATES OF TABLING.

:\1r. PETRIE (Toombul), without notice, asked the Home Secretary-

" \Vhen may I expect the return I called for with regard to discharged nrisoners to be laid on the table of. the House?"

Tlw HOME SECRETARY rcplied­"At an early date."

:\Ir. PETRIE, without notice, asked the Ao>'istant Minister for Justice-

,, ·when may I expect the return of fees paid to barristers and solicitors to be laid on the table· of the House? "

Ho'c. J. LARCOMBE (Keppel) replied­" The return is in course of prepara­

tion."

ELECTIONS ACT AMEl\'Dl\IEl\'T BILL. RESUMPTION OF Cmn'IITTEE.

(Mr. Bertram, llfaree, in the chai1·.)

Clause 5-"Amendment of ,,ection 9 "­

:\Ir. VOWLES (DalbJJ) : I did not have the plensuro of being here yesterday afternoon to hear the learned arguments advanced in favour of the reduction of the age entitling persons to the franchise from twenty-one to <•ightNm, but I am told by some· of my col­leagues that the hon. member for Rock­hampton rather misquoted me, unintention­ally, no doubt; that he said that I expressed ll)Y opinion that if I had the opportunity of altering the age I would make· it fifty-five.

:.VIr. FORDE: Twenty-five. :\lr. VOWLES: I stand corrected. I think

that I expressed the opinion. as a result of my personal experience, that very few per­>'ons, including my"elf-(laughter)-were fit t·'l huve a vote until they were twenty-five years of age; and I am still of that opinion. It >eems to me rather a stupid thing that we .-hould be wasting our time considering such '-' proposition as this.

:\1r. WHITFORD: Why waste the time of the· House, then?

:\fr. VOWLES : Simply because it is neces­"uy. Simply because there are so many men on the other side who are prepared to advocate such a stupid clause as this, it becumes ne-cessary for the Opposition to ex· <·xposo. what such legislation would result in.

[Mr. Vowles.

It i' funnv to consider the tactics and the legislation 'of the• present Government. Very <·arly in their history they seemed to have a very 'trong feeling for all the persons ex­eluded from thc- franchise-thl) wife-beater, th" criminal-everybody excluded under the old Act of 1885 or subsequent Acts-with a vie". perhap:;, of trying to induce them to oupport them.

Mr. PET!:RSON: Give- us the name of one wife-beater you kept off.

Ml'. \"0\VLES: I do not associate with them. Probably hon. members opposite do, and that is why they were so fervent in their desire to give them the right to vote·. After dealing with all these classes of criminals and semi-criminals, they seem to come down to the people in the lowest stage of mental tlevelopment-thQ juveniles-and try to in­clude them.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE : Do voti associate the juveniles with criminals? ·

Mr. YOWLES: I do not. I associate them with the Government, not with the criminals. I associate them with the Govern­ment, who seer11 to be their particular friends, and appear to be out on every occasion to do the best thev can for them. The Govern­ment go to the lowest form of mentality, and try to cater for the juveniles, whose minds are not formed so that they are able to cast au int<'lligent vote on matters of public importance. \Ve do not want to arrive at the position where Parliame-nt is going to be ruled, where electorates may be ruled, where this Chamber may be ruled, by the vote:- of irresponsible· persons. Cases have been brought forwal'd of intellectual freaks, persons who have achieved at eighteen years of age greater brain power than many other men would achieve in a lifetime; but when you &um them up they are a very small pPrcPntag·e of manhood. You cannot judge anything by its exceptions. and such an argu­mPnt i' a fallacy. The fact that a boy or girl is Pntitled to select land at the age of ><ixtPcn has be-en advanced as a reason why that person should be entrusted with a vote.

Mr. HARTLEY: You were prepared to con­'cript them at eighteen.

:\Ir. YOvYLES: I was not; that is another fallacy. The hon. member knows that under our military laws, adopte-d by a Labour Go\·c·rmnent. the principle has been estab­lished that boys can be conscripted for home service in Australia. \V hat is conscription? Conscription is compelling a person to do something in a military line against his will. Fnder the law passed by a Labour Gove-rn­ment certain pNsons are compelled to go into a training camp, but they are not con­scripted, as we know very well, for no person undergoing such training can be sent out of Australia under our military laws for any military purpose·. It is generally ad­mitted that during the war extraordinary eonditions prm·aile-d, and that extraordinary lPgislation must naturally follow. But the war time is over, and we are getting back to a normal condition of affairs, and we should try to bring our minds back to that position. Would it be reasonable to ask an ordinary boy leaving school, who has never had any­thing to do with political matters, to e-xer­cise the yote in ·respect of a matter of which !Je has no knowledge?

Hon. J. LARCO:UBE : \V'hy should they be .asked to fight for their country?

Elections Act [l OCTOBER.) Amendment Bm. 1067

:'llr. VOWLES : They are not ask~d to figh~ for th~ir country.

Hon. J. LARCOliiBE: Yes, they are.

Mr. VOWLES: Under ~what Act'? Hon. J. LARCOC\'!BE: Under the Defence

Act.

Mr. VOWLES: Under that Act they may be asked to fight in defence of their country, but not to go outside the Commonwealth to !ic:ht. and that Act was passed by a Labour Government .. A boy at eighteen years o£ ap;e may be physically developed and capahle of undergoing rrdlitary training·~ and after three y<'ar;; of such training he may be fit for mili­tary se nice; but can you say that a boy with three years of political training will be able to exercise the franchise intelligently?

Mr. HARTLEY: You do not know the De­fence Act, or you would know that a boy is call..d out for military training at fourteen years of age.

Mr. VOWLES: Then, if the hon. member is consistent, he mu,t say that a boy of four­teen years of age should also be entitled to a vote. Does the hon. member say that·;

Mr. HARTLEY: Yes.

Mr. VOWLES: Then, the hon. member :'hould move an amendment providing that " boy of fourteen years of age shall be given a vote. But I contend that a boy of eighteen years of age, who has just left school, has not the mental development that is required to engage in the serious affairs of life. We all recognise that after his term at school is finished he goes out into the world to get that training which is necessary to make him ready for a political career. Boys will not improve much politically if they are going to start their political career at the coge of eighteen years. In this amending we;;sure we arc dealing with a very serious ,,,atter, and I am surprised at the levity with which the Government treat the matter. It is all very well to bring forward a subject for academic discussion. but it is another matter to bring forward the same subject for lc<;·islation. \Vc want hon. members oppo­site to give us some sound reason why thoro ,,hould be an alteration in the franchise in tlw respect proposed in this BilL

Hon. J. LARCO;)!BE: They were givPn yes­tcn·day, and you wore not here.

Mr. VOWLES: I was, unfortunately. awav, and did not hear the learned speech <Jf thP hon. gentleman and his supporters, n<Jr have I had an oppm·tunity of rca·ding the "' Hansard" report of those speeches. I "·hall probably have the misfortune to have read them to-morrow, but I do not suppose I will g<'t very much infonnation from thf'm. \V t' are going to roYolutioniso our Constitu­tion by amplifying the voting power and -t"'rf'ating a number of llC\V voters, and sound reawm should be given for the proposed c·hauge. Some of the reasons which have llePn- giYPn I arn asharned to refer to. I heard tlw ~Iinister say that one reasDn why wc ·~hould give a vote to women at eighteen Vl'ars of agf' was that the age of consent for a vrornan is seventeen years.

Box. J. LARGO MBE: I rise to a point of Drdcr. The hon. member is rnisrepresent­itw what I said. I am quit<' prepared to own ur7 to what I did say, but I certainly object to the hDn. member misquoting my remarks.

Mr. VO\VLES : I was not referring to the hon. gentleman as the Minister in this case.

When this Bill was initiated thNe ~was another Minister in charge of it.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: \Vhy didn't you say so?

M1·. VOWLES: I ne,·er thought for the moment that it was necessary to explain th<1t fact. If the hon. member will refer tD "Hansard," lw will see that the J\Iinister then in charge of the Bill raised th0 stupid ar.rument I have mentioned-namelY. that th~re are plenty of instances in which girls have been mothers of ehildren before tlwv were sixteen years Df ·agP, and I would sajr even before they had r0achecl the age of fourteen y<'aP'. Then, applying the argu­ment used by the hon. gentleman. we should sav that everv such girl, whether married or' otlwrwise ·should be cnti tied to a vote. That is one 'of the reasons which have been given in favour of the reduction of the age for the franchise from twenty-one vears t£J eighteen vears. Another r~ason which has been offe.red is that certain freaks have occurred in human history. Some members have mentioned poets who had ·died young­most of them morphia-eaters-and th<JY have mentioned that Pitt achieved the highest distinction any man in this world can achi(we before he was twenty-one years of ::go. ~ut Pitt was ono of the glorious exceptwns w1th regard to the ment<J.! eapac1ty of young people. Then, under the Land Act, we haYe nlaclt• djstinctions \Vith regard to mC'n and women oyer sixteen years of age who select land.

J\;lr. J,DIES: A girl can sdect for her father.

Mr. GFKX: She cannot select till she is twent v-one.

Mr." VO\YLES: She cannot St'lect for ~or father if she selects honestly. What I vy1sh to point out is that it has be-rm recogmsed that. under the Lan-d Act. a person can do certain things which no other person_ can do at that agf'. They can transfer the1r selec­tions, or mortgage them undet· a spemal pro­Yision ins(•rted in the Act by the Den?am Government. 'r'hose advantages wm·e giV~n so that they coul.d carry out work _on thmr lands and make them reproductive .. and right!,- so. But because pt'rsons are cnt1tled to hold a piece of land at that age, and to mortgage and eell, as the case may be. does that put cwerybody on the plane, at twenty­one , ears of age, of having a full knowle·c;!ge of ail the affairs of the State, and of bemg able to cast an intellig'>nt Yote '!

Mr. J HIES : Are you serious in saying that? You do not mean to say ~hat 90 per cent. of the people have an intelhgent grasp of the Yote they give ?

:\Ir. VOWLES: I sa:-· that, according to mv political kno·xledg-e. at twenty~five ~·ears 0 ( age yery few people apply an mtelhg~nt knowledge in their YotP. but the proportiOn is coneiderabl~· Ices at twenty-one, and 1t would bf' more so at eighteen. Thn'' should be a uniform standard. \\'h_,- should we ha Yf' a different age of yoting in the State and the Commonwealth?

J\Ir. JlARTLEY : \Vh r did the Common· w0alth fix thP age at ·eighteen oversea, and not allow it here Y

::VIr" VOWLES: \Ye get ba<:k to the same old que,tion of conscripti<Jn. \Ve are ~up­posed to have umformlty as _far as posstl!le. and should we not be gmded m yotml;' mattPrs by the Commonwealth, fm: a. start! Should \VC not have the same pnnc1ple of

Mr. Vowles.J

1068 Elections Act [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

voting? The first thing should be uniformity of age. There should be the s.ame qualifica­tion and the same disqualification throughout <·very State.

Mr. HARTLEY: \Vhy do you not carry out uniformity of ago'! You give a vote at eighteen on the conscription question over­~ea, but you are refusing to giYe a vote here at eight·,en.

)lr. VO\VLES: \\'e approvc.d of the dis­tinction that everv man who wont to thll war 'hould bo entitlecl to the franchise, and that those who did not go· should not be entitled. \Vlwn you come down to bedrock, thoro are very few who will Le> excluded, becauso a boy who volunteered at eighteen is probably twenty-ono now. There may be a very small perc0ntage of others who volunteered who would not come within it one way or the other. \Vhv should a man who did his duty and proved his manhood, and who is Pntitl<>d to a vote in that respect, carry on his shoulder' every other man of a similar ag<' who rDfusoo to do the same thing?

::Yir. HARTLEY: Because military service is not the• te't of citizenship.

Mr. VOWLES: If that was good enough during war time, why should it not continue for all time?

::Yir. liARTLEY: It was not good enough in war time. and it was never endorsed by this party.

Mr. VO\VLES : This Government never supported anyone who went to the war. (Gov<'rnment interruption.)

}Jr. HARTLEY: Yes, it did. The CHAIRMAK : Order ! Order !

1lr. VOWLES: Is not intellect the test of qualification, and should not a man be at the age wh0n he is generally regarded in business and other directions as fitted for a vote. A man cannot make a will under eighteen, except he is a soldier on the field. A man can do no legal act under the age of twenty-one. If you are going to alter the ago with regard to tlw exercise of the franchise, you should do it in every other direction. Why should a man h:JYe the right to commit his country to certain action, and yet not he able. to raise his own private funds Y \Vhy should he come into this House -as lw eventually wi]] if you are going to carry out this principle-at the age of nine­teen or twenty-one, as a member and com­mit people generally to certain acts, when he cannot commit himself or his private fortune before he is twenty-one? Our (ionstitution will not permit of it.

Hon. J. LARCO)IBE interjected. ::Yir. VOWLES: We know they have people

in the House of Lords under twenty-one years of age, but no one can be in the Com­monw<'alth or State Parliaments under that age. The whole thing boiled down amounts to this-that this is not brought forward genuinely, because, if it was brought forward in a genuine spirit. it would not simply be done with the desire to gain votes but to enable every minor of the age of eighteen to do what he liked. If you made it genNal it would not be favouring anyone.

Mr. J.DiES: Would you support it? Mr. VO\VLES: No, I would not. We can

read between the lines and see that it is to favour a coratin class.

Mr. F. A. COOPER : Are you afraid of them?

[Mr. Vmoles.

:Yir. VO\YLES: I am not afraid of them. This io electione-ering pure and simple. If the Governnwnt cannot obtain them votes nmY, at any rate they can turn round, and when they become of age, tell them, "\Ve would have been your friends and given you the franchise, but the Opposition were against it.'' The GoYernment are bringing this forward now in the hope that it will be knocked out, so that they will be able to tell these young people when they become twenty­one :l'<mrs of age. "You would have had the Yote before now. but the Opposition refused to give it." If the Government were sincere, they would not worry about the eleetoral franchise, but would give every youth of eighteen, with a war record, full legal right in every ·direction: but they will not do that. If they bring legislation forward in that direction it will be consistent, but until they do it, it is a sham and electioneering.

Mr. SMITH (.llacka11): It appears to me that the opposition to the extension of the franchise to persons of eighteen is pretty much the same as that which members oppo­site have directed against any extension of the franchise. \V e know that in the past the basis of franchise was not manhood suf­frage or common humanity, but property and land. When the agitation sprung up, as' the result of education, and the workers desired a say in framing the legislation unde1· which they lived, hon. members opposite-or their political representatives at that time­said that unless a man had responsibility and a stake in the country, or owned property, he> would not have sufficient r~sponsibility or love for his country to cast an intelligent vote. However, they were defeated on that occasion. Then, again, when the agitation ;;;prang np in connection with woman suf­frage, w~ were met with the same argument. The Opposition then stat-ed that women haLl not the necessary knowledge; that they would not be able to exercise that nice dis­crimination necessary in dealing with poli­tical problP.ms; or that they would be largely guided by their husbands and fathers, and "0 on. \V e find that all the progress that has been made in any country is the r<>sult of the extension of the franchise; and it is simplv because the Opposition have fail<;d to progress with the times, that they have failed to take heed of what is going on in the community, that they are opposing this proposal to-day. We must recognise that at eight~en years of age a man or a wom!'n has pretty well decided what course of life they shall pursue. In the case of males they have decided what occupa'tion they are likely to follow in after y~ars ; they have gone. to considerable length in their appren­ticeship, if they are followin_g skilled trade~. And bear in mind that at mghteen years of age the needs of these people are as great a:; they are at a later date. Their feelings are the same, and, in addition to that, it is the experience of every country that, wher~ responsibility is placed on. shoulders, the average man or woman rises to that re­sponsibility. It has been the tendency of people in the past to pooh-pooh the ideas of the young; to t<;ll them to wait until they arP consid~rably older and then,. perhaps, they will be consider:'d. But that Is not t_he attitude of men of mtelllgenee. We desrre to bring out our young people, to consider their ideas. and, if they arf) good, to adopt them beca.use they are the people who are going to carry on the work of civilisati.on; and it is a good time to bring them mto

[l OCTOBER.] Amendment Bill. 1069

the full Dperations of citizenship, so that they will realis~ their responsibility at an early date. and take the part in the life of the oom­munity that they should take. 'This is pretty well recognised by all thinking people at the present time. \V e know, for examplq, that the British Government have been com­pelled to pay a certain amount of unem­ployment allowance since the c~ssation of the war. and that unempiDyment allowance is paid in full to males and females of eighteen years of age, thereby recognising that the needs of persons eighteen years old are just as groat as those of persons of more mature years. So it is with regard to othel­things. In regard to intelligence, the ques­tion Df age does not enter into the mattQr a; all. We have heard a great deal from hon. members opposite about age bringing more mature judgment and more mature wisdom; but we find that that is not always tlw case. If people as they grew older invariably grew wis!'r and more democratic. then we would find that the ancients in another Chamber, instead of being opponents of Labqur, would be oupporting measures of a Labour and socialistic nature. But we find quite the contrarc- ; WfC find that those peopiP are out to oppose everything of a progrc.s<ive nature. The hon. member for Dalby can never deal with any quC'ition without taking the political aspect into con­'id<cration. Here we find a man belonging t; the legal profe,sion, who is supposed to have a trained mind and to be capable of dealing logically with first principles; but, instead of considering in the abstract the likely effect on the civilisation and culture of the community of th'l enfranchisement of person;; of eighteen years of age, we find him eonsiclering the question from the point of view of how many votes he is likely to gain or lose at an election conducted on this fran­chisP,. That is very wrong. We should deal with the question from the point of view of justice; and, if we do that, there can be little doubt as to the amendment being carried. As bearing on this question I have rather an interP,sting quotation which seems to me to hit off the whole situation. It is from an article by a person writing under the name of "Jl,fark Tyme" in one of the Scottish Labour papers. He is dealing with progressive thought, and he goes on to say-

" Som~ men only speak with the authority of many years. Age does not always bring wisdom. Some men in travelling life's road gather only years, straw and stubble; their heads are bald both in and out. Their p<carls are only paste. All they have creat<ccl out of their life's building materials is a wall of prejudice to shut out the truth: yet they sit in judgment on every new idea."

It is persons animated with such views who aro opposing this measure. They are not prepared to deal with it in a broad, liberal­minded way. They are viewing it with pre­judice and with bias. and from the point of view of how it will affect them in their constitutencies. I believe that the amend­ment, when carried, will be of considerable advantage. We know that the trend of Pducation at the present time is to give young people a knowledge of history and economics. We desire that progress shall be ma.cle in the future so that we shall be able to build up a civilisation free from the evils which dis­figure every country at the present clay. As a result, our school curricula are directed to g;ive the pupils that knowledge. And if we

desire to instil a knowledge of the duties of citizenship into the minds of the young people of this country, what better method can we adopt than by giving them a good education in the schools, teaching them the facts of life as we know them, teaching them the lines along which progress has been made in the past, and indicating the lines that must be pursued in the future? By so doing we will bring those young people to a knowledge of the responsibilities and duties of citizenship, and the result to the <'ommunitv will be of considerable advan-tage. -

Mr. F. A. COOPER (Bremer) : It is well known that there are no stones within a. hundred miles of the town of W algett, in ;\Jew South Wales. Upon one occasion there was a number of water hens taken there by the municipal council. ·water hens need a certain number of rushes and stones to build their nests: and tlie residents during a period of drought, when there were no rushes, and when there were certainly no stones, used to spend interesting Sunday a.fternoons watching the dilemma of those water hens in attempting to form nests. I was there once, and I spent a delightful quarter of an hour in watching those birds; and I never was so forcibly reminded of them as I was this afternoon when I saw the deputy leader of the Opposition scratching round for some sort of an argument to put up against this propo;;al. (Government laughter.) It was one of the most remark­able scratching matches that I have ever seen. He scratched all round the compass for arguments, and he found nothing. The men who fished by night found nothing, .and the hon. member did precisely the same. He fell back in the end upon the old, old argu­ment of the irresponsibility of the eighteen­year-older. According to him, they ha.ve no responsibility, they are at school right up to their eighteenth birthday, and then they pass from school straight into the world, and then he says they should be given three years in which to learn the ways of the world and become wise.

The S'ECRETARY FOR PuBLIC INSTRUCTION : They are treated as adult prisoners at eighteen.

Mr. F. A. COOPER : I know they are. I know they are treated as adults at' the age of fourteen years, so far as work is con­cerned. 'rhe majority of boys are taken from school at the age of fourteen, and they ha vo to scratch for four years until they arc eighteen; and, if that does not give them a knowledge of the ways of the world, I am sure nothing will. One of the favourite argumm1ts of the Opposition is, " Give responsibility. That is the thing to steady people." They tell you over and over again that there is nothing like responsibility to steady a man or a community, and I say that, if to give the boys and girls of eighteen the responsibility of a vote will steady them, then by all means give them. a vote. They will feel it is absolutely their duty to study i·hc questions, and they will study them·. The Opposition arc everlastingly fond of falling behind the bo:;-s of tender years when anythir.g happens. ·when the pitched battle of " Merivale'b was fought, what did the Opposition say? They said, " It wam't us. It was not our barrackers. It was a few irresponsible youths of eighteen years of age." 'They are everlastingly fond of throwing the responsibility upon the young

M'l'. F. A. Cooper.]

1070 Elections Act [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

when anything goes wrong. They say, " It was the irresponsible mob again." The hon. member for Maekay referred to times gone past, when members aEsociated with the party that stands for stagnation opposed the extension of the franchise. He said the arguments were the same then as they are to-day. They are, practically. To show the great similarity between the arguments of the old, old troglodytes and their present-day representatives, I will read one or two pas­sages from a most interesting volume entitled, " Queensland Parliamentary Debates" vol. lxxiii., 1895, page 364. The Secretary for Lands as speaking. I believe he was a gentleman b-, the name of Barlow at the time. Ho said-

" I shall never profess to believe in a proposal so illogical, so tyrannical, and so utterly non,ensical as the statement that all men, whatever may be their posi­tion, whatever may be their stake in the country--"

The dear old "stake"-" \Vhatcver may be their intelligence,

whatever may be their thrift, and what­ever their ability-that they are all to be put upon one miserable dead level. There is no mistake about my position. I do not want to be at all offensive, but take the case of the preo.cnt Premier of New Sonth Wales--"

He· was Sir Ge01·ge Reid, then Mr. Reid--" Anyone who knows anything about

tho electorate that he has been returned for, knows that it contains probably one­fourth of the real property of the city oi Sydney, and over a quarter of the mercantile interests of the city. Yet by whom has Mr. Reid been returned? The persons--"

Observe the term "per"'mY;." You know, it refers to the lower order.

Mr. lVIoRGAN: Did you say "parsons"?

Mr. F. A. COOPER: No. I said the lower ordc·r. If I were a " parson" I would be '' pa.c,in'" you out. (Loud laughter.) It says-

" The persons who have a:J that immense interest in the city of Sydney have not had one single word or vote in deciding who should represent them in the great division of King. The persons who attend to the caretaking and the sweeping of the warehouses and shops in the district are the persons who have returned him. I do not for ono moment contend that those persons should not havo votes. I think thev should." ·

But not, of course, in the proportion of the gentlemen who own the bricks and mortar. who sit upon the very highly-valued land that forms the electorate of King. '.rhen, later on. another gentleman spoke. This was the Hon. J. R. Dickson.

Mr. MoRGAX : You are quoting the dead.

Mr. F. A. COOPER: There are other people besides th<'<,e gentlemen who are dead. It does not say because they are dead that their opinions cease to be. Their repre­sentatives live on the other side, and God grant they may ever continue to live on the other side of the Chamber; we never want to see them on this side. (Hear, hear !)

Mr. MoRGAN : Why do not you quote the speeches of live men?

[Mr. F . .A. Cooper.

Mr. F. A. COOPER: There is no life on the Op]>osition side. Politically, they a.re all dead, because their ideas died 300 years ago. This is what the Hon. J. R: Dickso11: said, at page 372 of the same volume ol " H ansanr '-

'' l thNcfor<>. consider that Lord Salis­hur/ who, a short time ago. had occasion to meet a deputation urging on him the a<lvisability of a change in the elector~! s,-stcm of Great Britain, when he said that the property vote was the bulwark of the British Constitution, conveyed a verv clear idea of the respect wo ought to ~ttach to the property vote, which has for so many centuries been the verv safeguard of political institutions in Great Britain."

Now, I think that if hon. members of the Opposition want any solid reasons why per­sons of the ago of 0ighteen should ~e. giVen a vote, they should study the positiOn of persons of eighteen 3 cars of ago. The great majority of them to-day have to leave school at the ao-o of fourteen years. They are faced with all"'the responsibilities with which adults of the age of twenty-one are faced. They have to born· the same burdens as anybody dse. and I am convinced that at that time of their lives it is very necessary that they should be brought to consider the economic Ponditions that surround them, and the very best means of bringing them to consider that position is to give them the vo.te. I w_ant to remind hon. members opposite, partiCu­lady the hon. member for Bulimba, that this giving of the vote to persons of the age of eighteen will entitle them to vote upon all questions that are brought befm-e the electors. For instance, persons of the age of eighteen will have a _vote on 1:eferendums taken in connection with the liquor laws. Does anyone me'ln to tell me that boys and girls of eighteen years of. age are not interested in that great questiOn? Have not hundreds and thousands of them known. the bitterness and the sorrow of homes _nu_ned in that direction, and are thP): to sit Idly by for three vcars until such time as hon. gentlemen on' th0 other side of the FJ;o?-so desire to allow them to express an opmwn upon that question? I a~ surprised that a. man who stands for social rdorm, as the hem. member for Bulimba alleges _he does, should be so backward in recogm.-~ng the absolut0 necessitv of an amendment such as this. I trust th~ Committee will not worr_Y any further about the matter, but that this d~use will be put through without any further debate.

At half-past 4 o'clock p.m., Mr. FOLEY relieved the Chairman m the

chair. Mr. O'SULLIVAN: I notice the hon.

memb~r for Dalby is very loth to give the vouth of eighteen a vote. It must be remem­bered that the Prince of Wales comes of ag~ at eighteen and I do not see that he has any greater kn'owledge of life than have our voung workers at the ag~ of eighteen ye':rs. It is alwavs the way when we want anythmg of a progressive na:ture done. 0~1r opponents are always up agamst us. I behev~ a c:ou~g lad at eighteen years ?f age to-day IC, m social matters, far supenor to what his father 01 his grandfather was at the age of tWP,>;Ity­one. He has the greater means of ed~catwn. Boys and girls of the past generatiOn left school, the majority of them·, at the tender

Elections Act [! OCTOBER.] Amendment Bill. 1071

ages of ~!even and twelve. Now the school age is kept up to fourteen years-a very low age I admit, but still, greatm· than it was in past days. Therefore, the boys and girl< of to-da v are more fitted to Pxereise th<> vot<>. to enter into the life of a Government: t0 consider the social conditions in which they are living, and to better those S{)cial con­ditions for th~mse!Yes. If you give· them the r<>sponsibility of voting at eighteen they will exercise it ; they will be looking forward to that time when they will have the right to vote, and they will fit themselv.;s to do so in as good a- manner as the past generation diJ when the voting age was twenty-one years. I will give an instance to the hon. member for Dalby of what is going on in the old~r countries. In those places which are talring a plebiscite under the League of Nations agreement, the voting age has been reduced to twenty. I believ~ we of the British race adhere to the {)Id idea of twenty-one simply because it has h<•en handed down from time immemorial. 'Then• are other parts of the world where men i·each a state of manhood at a lesser ago than tw<>nty-one-in some places as low as eighteen. I do not sec that we sh{)uld be altogether g-uided by that. Let us go on and consider what are the best interests of our own coun­try for the betterment and the uplifting of th'" social wellbeing of the masses. who un­doubtedly are to-day in the position t{) exer­cise a greater judgment on things political than were those people of the past genera­tion. The past generation has Jone very little for the country. We would not be in the position we are to-day had the parents of the younger people of to-day exercised their vott:s intelligently. I believe that we will be in a bett_er position twenty years hr,nce, With the assistance of the vouth of the country, than we are to-day, because the youth of the country are always buoyant,

they always lopk {)n the bright [4.30 p.m.] sidQ of things, and to infuse

that spirit into the wh{)le body politic will be of advantage to the community and great assistance in bringing about re­form. The Opposition never object to any­one being placed in a high p{)sition when under the age of twenty-on~. Look at the late Queen Victoria. She sat on the throne or Britain when only eighteen years of age, and with all due respect to her, I do not think that h~r mentality was any greater than that of an ordinary working-class woman whom we meet here and whom they ITHJet i~ the old country. A woman of eighteen years of age who has had to work from girlhood has a greater knowledge of life than on~ born in a high place, and one who has had everything made smo{)th for her. It has often been shown that motherhood comes to a woman at an age less than eighteen, and what greater thing can come tr, anv woman than motherhood? Should she n,";t have th<J right to exercise .her judg­ment in the framing {)f the laws that will affect the bringing up of her child or chil­dren? The Opposition are always against any thing progressive. They opposed adt~lt suffrage; they opposed every step onward m the franchise.

Mr. MoRGAN: That is absolutely untrue.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN: It is just as untrue to say that the sun did not shine yesterday because there was a bit of a cloud over it. The Opposition have always opposed the progress of the franchise, because the idea at the back of their minds always was a

propPrty qnalilica.tion. Did we not hear the IPader of the Opposition the other night "llOaking about votes being given to persons of thirtv vears of age? I interjected that it was mere class legislation, and so it is, because many a man of thirty is in a. better monl'tary position than he was at twenty-one. and, therefore, will exercise his franchise 1nore fronl a class-conscious point of vie1v than he would at twenty-one. My idea, and the idea of the Governm<•nt here, is that we 'hould aim at what I might term a better l'l'a than we have had in the past and give our youth the opportunity of exercising a vote. because they have to obey the laws at <'ightecn and they should have some right directing what !aw3 shall be placed on the statute-book.

Mr. BEBBIJ:\iGTON (Drayton): I am rather amused to think that hon. members on the other side, according to their own confpesions, are in a very backward state of mind. They have hardly emerged into civilisation. The hon. member for Mackay said that it was their intention to teach the young people in their schools how to vote and exercise the principles of manhood. Wha.t have they done in the past? How <hd they attempt to deal with this question in the sehools? In the first place, they tried to Prase the name of God, and everything else in r<>lation to an Eternal Being from our school books, and then, only the other day, we had a deputation of members on the other side to the Minister for Education and the Under Secretary, who wanted to pre­vent anything appearing in our school books in recognition of our grand lads who have fought for our freedom and their freedom­for without them they would not be here.

::Ylr. S'\IITH: What has that got to do with· the amendment?

Mr. BEBBINGTON: It has everything to do with it. The hon. member sai·d that thev were going to teach the youths in our schools. Not so long ago they brought up a gentleman from thP South, under the auspices of the \Yorkc>rs' Educational Association. Let us see what he said in the Domain-

" Speaking in the Domain, Mr. E. J udd, of Sydney, the one big union organiser and propagandist, urged the reduction of working hours."

Mr. CARTER: What has that to do with the amendment?

Mr. BEBBINGTO:"o!: It has everything to do with it. Members talk about educating people in the right paths, and this is the kind of person they bring up to Q.o it. I prcsum.e that I have a right to read this extract, another hon. member having men­tioned that they will instruct the young people how to educate themselves.

" Speaking in the Domain, Mr. E. J udJ, 9f Sydney, the one big union organiser and propagandist, urged the reduction of working hours."

GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: What has that got to do with the question?

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: I rise to a point of order.

:i\1r. BEBBINGTON : You d{) not want to hear it, do you ? But you are going to hear it whether you want to hear it or not, with the permisoion of the Chairman.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: have no objection to hearing it.

Mr. BEBBINGTON: Well, then, sit down I

Hon. J. A. Fihelly.]

1072 Elections Act [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: ::l·fr. Chairman, I rise to a point of order­that :-;·ou will prevent the hon. member for Drayton from bringing up a matter which is quito out of order. It doeR not deal with d10 · matter under discussion. It has no reference to it, and cannot in anv way be connected with it. "

:YI:r. BEBBINGTON : Do you not like the truth''

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: I do not mind it a bit.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: I would like to point out to the hon. member that the question under discussion is the reduction of the age of voters from twenty­one to eighteen, and unless the hon. member .ean connect the paragraph which he wishP< to read with this particular clause, he is ·l"'rf<·.ctly out of order.

. :\h. BEBBINGTON: Certainly, I connect lt w1th the clause. The hon. member for :\1:aokay was allowed to proceed on the •:1uestion of education, and this is the opinion ·of a gentleman whom they have brought all the "ay from Sydney to educate them. Surely, when the quP•.tion of educating the young people has been brought forward, I shall be allowed to show their manner of educating them, and the principles in which they intend to educate them. I maintain that tho Minister has no need to get up. vV e know. what we are doing, and the matter is in y<•ur hands, and not in the hands of the :VIinistcc for Railwavs. He had better mind hi' own business. \Vith your permission, I will go on and read it.

Tlw SECRETARY FOR RAIL\VAYS: ~1r. Chairman, I rise to a point of order. I am going to insist that my point shall bp consid<w?d by you in regard to that particular matter mtroduced by th<> hon. member for Drayton.

Mr. MORGAN: He has already considered it.

:Mr. BEBBINGTON: I quite understand that you have given your ruling that there is no point of order. I have something here that the Minister does not want to hear; and does not want to get into '' I-!ansard.''

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: I told the hon. member that unless he connects his remarks with the question under discussion, h<' could not read the extracts.

:VIr. BEBBINGTON: So I \Yill, with your p<lrmis~;ion. This is a matter of education; this matter of voting at eighteen is a matter of education, and I want to show the kind of persons they bring up to educate the young people. They have tried to block <'very reference in our school books to the boys who fought for us.

The TEMPORARY OHAIRMA::-.J: I \vant the hon. member to understand that the quc~tion is not the one he is <](•bating at all. lt is the question of at what age a person "hall be allowed to vote.

:!\ir. BEBBINGTON: Quite so-it is a matter of intelligence. 'The Minister for Railways thinks that everyone is as unintelli­gcnt as he is himself, and, therefore, he dops not want to hear what I am going to :•ay. The idea of thB other side is to block ik being put into "Hansard."

Mr. CARTER: That is an awful quibble.

[Hon. J. A. Fihelly.

Mr. BEBBINGTOX: It is awful for hon. members to have to hear it. They are afraid of the teachers. they arc bringing up from the South. This IS what he gaid--

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! Order!

'I'hP SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: I rise to a point of order.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: The · hon. member is certainly reading a para­graph that has nothing to do with the ques­tion, and I must rule him out of order.

Tho SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: I wish also to bring under your notice that the !wn. _me~ber for Drayton endeavours to get m h:s Jrrel<;vant matter by shouting out, notwithstandmg your repeated cdlls to order-showing great disrespect to the Chair. (Hear, hear!)

Mr. MORGA::'IJ: Mr. Chairman, I rise to a point of order. You ruled that if the hon. member for Drayton connects .his remarks wit-h the> question before the Committee he will be in order, and now you are asked to rule, before you know what his remarks are, that he is out of order.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: As far as I can follow the remarks of the hon. member for Drayton, they have no connec­tion with the question before the Committee.

Mr. BEBBINGTON : Hon. members oppo­site were allowed to quote whole paragraphs and long letters in support of their argu­ments, and I claim the same privilege, and I am sure that you will give it to me. GovER~MENT ::WE~IBERS : Order ! Order !

Chair ! Chair ! The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: I am

not dealing with what other members have done or said. While I am in the chair I shall rule what L think is right in any case that is brought before me, .and I certainly think the hon. membei" is not in order in dealing with a matter which is not connected with the amendment at all.

Hon. Vi'. EL BAR~ES : He is showing that the matter he wishes to quote has a distinct connection with the proposal to give the vote to persons of eighteen years of age.

Mr. BEBBINGTON: I say this paragraph has a distinct connection with the proposal to give a vote to young people of eighteen years of age.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! vYill the hon. member show the Committee where the man he wishes to quote said any­thing about a vote to young people of eighteen years of age?

Mr. BEBBINGTON: He implied it, if he did not say it. (Government laughter.) In fact, he was brought . up here to support this verv proposal, and to educate the people on thoRo lines. All his expenses from Sydney to Brisbane had to be paid, and I wish to show the Committee the kind of man that members opposite wish to educate the people in regard to this particular proposal, and, with your permission, I 'shall read the paragraph.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: I again rise to a point of order. May I men­tion for the information of the Committee that the clause we are discussing is clause 5, which provides-

" In section nine of the principal Act,

Elections Act [l OcTOBER.] Amendment Bill. 1073

the -words 'bventy-one years are re­pealed, and ~he words ' eighteen years ' are inserted 1n lieu thereof."

If the hon. member for Dravton still con­tinues to disregard your ruling, I think the Committee should tuke wme action in the matter.

Mr. VOWLES: I object to the Minister for Railways telling the Chairman what he should do. If the hon. gentleman has a point of order, let him state that point of order, but he should not direct the Chairman.

The SECRE'rARY FOR RAILWAYS: 'l'he hon. member was out of the House when I raised my point of order.

Mr. VowLES: I heard it.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: I may explain to him that my point of order was that the hon. memher for Drayton was entirely out of order in quoting a matter which has no reference to the question under discussion. The Chairman upheld my point of order, and I think he should now confine the member to the amendment before the Committee.

Mr. BEBBINGTO)!: As showing what is the idea of hon. members opposite with regard to education, I may suy that this man said: "If he thought there was a Supreme Being--"

The TE:'viPORARY CHAIR~IAN: Order! The hon. member will not be in order in quoting any further from that report.

Mr. BEBBINGTON: I ·am sure vou will agree with me, :Mr. Chairman, that a man who is brought up to educate our youth for the purpose of a Bill lik<> this, under which youths of eighteen years of age are going to get the franchise, which is ilw most impor­tant thing· we can give them, should endeavour to educate them on proper lines.

At fiftee.n minutes to 5 o'clock p.m., The CHAIRMA>r resumed the chair. ::11r. BEBBIXGTON: This man said: ''If

he thought there was a Supreme Being" : and he also said that he hoped "the snows of Russia. would entomb the allied army'' .. -that the nllied armies would be defeated.

The CHAIRiYIAN: Order! I aek the hon. member to keep to the question before the Committee.

Mr. BEBBINGTO::'-J : Yes. This is a matter of educating our youth, and I wish to bhow the class of man which members oppo site bring up here to educate our young people.

The CHAIRMAN: Order ! The hon. mem­ber is wandering away from the question before the Committee.

Mr. B:BJBBINGTON: 'l'his man said he wished that the Bolsheviks would overthrow the allied armies, and that the snows of Russia would entomb them there. And that is the kind of man that members opposite bring up here from Sy·dney, paying his expenses to Brisbane, to educate our youth.

The CHAIRMAN : Order ! Order !

Mr. BEBBI)!GTON: I agree with your ruling. Mr. Chairman. (Laughter.) Passing from this point, I wish to say that the fre.n­ohise is the greate<t gift we can bestow upon our young people, and that we should give the matter every consideration; but when you get a man like that up from Sydney to

1919-3 w

prea<~h such doctrineB, I say the lc,,,s \Ve have of that kind of education for our young people the better.

Mr. CARTER (Port Curtis): One almost exJJects to hear inconsistencies frorn members on- the other side of the Chamber, but I must confes·> that I have been amused at their attitude with regard to this Bill. . Dur­ing the time the Bill has been before the House, there have been constant references of a snet'ring character in the daily Press to what thPy term "flappers "-young ladie<; of ···:ghteen years of age-and also refer­encps ·to voung men bc'tween eighteen and twenty-one that were not at all creditable. Hon. nwmbers opposite have gone out of their way to malign both the young ludies and the young mc•n under the age of twenty­one years, and have spoken of them as lack­ing in intelligence. Yet ye,terday we had the hon. member for :Murilla and several other hon. members opposite intimating that while thc'y were prepared to refuse a vote to young men and young 'yomen under the <l(ff" of twentv-one years, thev were at the same time an:X:.ious to give a v·ote to aboriginals.

Mr. :!\!:ORGAN : \Vho fought for you and me.

Mr. CARTER: I am not talking about what they may have done. I am referring to the desire on the part of members on that side of the Chamber to give aboriginals, no matter what they may have done, a vote in preference to white men and white women und,•r the age of twenty-one years. ·while refusing to give a vote to white men and women, who in all probability have had a good education and an excellent training, and mix with people of the highest grade of thou \\·ht, they are prepared to go into the abonginal camp-because the hon. member for JYlurilla said he ,,-ent into the camp at 'l'aroom and Barambah--

JY1r. ;\!I oRGAN : I did not say anything of lhe sort. I did not go il}to the camp.

Mr. CARTER: The hon. member said they r>'cruited from those camps. He would lead us to believe that it is better to give the vote to men rear0·d under the worst con­ditions, of the very lo'' est class of human beings, in preference to cultured. well­educat.,d white people reared under the very best conditione. Yet hon. members opposite call themselves con·ist.ent. Why do thev propose to give it to the aboriginals? It is supr1osed that because a man has been to the war it better fits him to become an elector than if he had not been to the war. If a man has bmm to the war. or has been at some employment, we should recompense him in some proper way; but we should not say that, because a man is physically fit and ~as gone to the war, he should have a vote, while a man who has not gone to the war is not fit to have on<>. If a man at eighteen is physically fit during the period between 1915 and 1918 to defend his country, and became of that fact should have a right to a vote, then I say that the man betwe<'n 1919 and any oth<>r period. at the age of eighteen, who is physically fit, is equally justified in claiming a vote. I cannot see rhat a man who between 1915 and 1918, when tlw war happened to be on, had an oppor­tunity offered to him of doing something in the war, is better fitted to exercise a vote than a man at that age at any other period of history would be. It seems to me that some of the arguments used are lacking in common sense. Of course, one would expect

Mr. Carter.]

:!.074 Elections Act [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

arguments lacking in common sense to come from the opposite side of the Chamber.

.Mr. M ORGAN: Don't cry over it. (Laugh­ter.)

Mr. CARTER: I am not crvim;. The hon. member is. constantly crying: HP is .so constantly whmmg that I have to .dub h1m a second Jeremiah. If a man is fit to earn a living at eighteen, and to defend his country at that age, I am satisfied, judging by the many young men I have seen at <'ighteen, that they study these questions very carefully. For many years I was a bookseller, and I am prepared to say that amongst the best students of economics and scientific subjects who came to m1· shop were men between sixteen and twenty-'one.

Mr. M oRGAN: And for a number of years you were a beerseller.

:\fr. CARTER: We had an experience on different sides of the counter. Mine was on the right side, and the hon. member's was on the wrong side.

The CHAIRMAN: Order! Order ! . Mr: C~R'I'ER: I was only replying to an mterJectron. It does not matter what occu­pation I follow. The hon. member's col­league, the hon. member for Nanango, was also a beerseller. The hon. member for Dxley tried to become the secretary of the heersellers. The hon. member's friends are amongst them. I wanted to draw attention to the sneers he was making.

'l'he CHAIRMAN : Order ! Order ! :&Ir. CARTER : I was going to say that

no matter what their vocation may be if they can carry arms at eighteen or 'are students, they may be just as 'fitted to <'X·ercise a vote a• a man at eighty-four years {)f age. I am satisfied that there would be less prejudice in their vote, because at the age of eighteen they would have no business to take care of. Most men at eighteen are much more studious than men at the age of .fifty or sixty, and are, therefore, better fitted for the franchise. They become less studious about that :oeriod. We know that when men get business cares they have lees {)pportunipy for study, and they become more conservative. A man with a busim,·<;s or other occupation is inclined to exercise his vote in defence of that particular business and not to study the welfare of the countrv and to legislate in the direction of his ow~ narrow little property interesh. That is what is occurri-ng to-day. \Ve find gentlemen in another place eighty years of age-some of .them legislating entirely in defence of the1r property. \Ve know that claims were made for a property vote in preference to a hun:an vote. Many of those gentlemen are busmess men who desire to protect their interests by legislation. If they happen to be profi.teers, thoy are going to defend profiteermg. If they have interests in insur­ance companies they are going to protect those insurance companies. \Ve know these vast institutions have subscribed enormons sums of money for the purpose of getting peop.Je return0d to Parliament. Young men at e1ghteen years of age having no business to defend, with their whole life in front of t_~e!n, are <!esirous of getting the best con­dltwns poos1ble for men in their generation. Therefore, the person with the greatest claim to vote is th'" man who has just stepped on to the threshhold of manhood and has to fight his way in the world. If, 'as hon. mem­bers opposite wish, black men are to be

[Mr. Carter.

given the franchise because they are eighteen years of age and can carry arms, then, surely, no sane man is going to refuse the franchise to intelligent whit" men and women over the age of eighteen, who have been reared under the very best conditions? \Ve were told by some hon. members opposite that it was only young men of eighteen or nineteen who ,disturhed meetings. I was at a number of m<·dings in the town here when the Pre­mier, the present Acting Premier, and the ::\finister for Education wei-.e disturbed by grandmotherly old gentlemen and old ladies. (Opposition laughter.) Yes, grandmotherly old gentlemen. who with other ladies went out of their way to disturb the meetings. I ad.dressed a meeting myself during the conscription campaign. and I was disturbed, not by youths, but by old people. I was rather nleased, because it reminded me of being in this Chamber and looking at the other side. (Laughter.) Meetings are not disturbed by young people, but by silly people, and chiefly by silly people who oppose progressive people's thought. During the Tory regime of Government, the black population of Tasmania was absolutely wiped out of existence in seventy years, and we now have this solicitude to give blackfellows votes at eighteen. Talk about insincerity! It is the very acme of insincerity. Hon. members who are the descendants of people who wiped out the black population of Tas­mania in seventy years want to give Yotes to blackfellows.

The CHAIRMAN : Order ! I would point out that the hon. member is now dealing with the proposal to give a vote to abori­ginals, which was rejected yesterday.

Mr. GU~N (Garnarvon): I rise to a point of order. Is the hon. member in order in stating that members on this side wiped out the aboriginals of Tasmania?

Mr. CARTER: I did not say that. I said that they are the descendants of the people who wiped them out. I was only

referring to the arguments used [5 p.m.] by hon. members opposite. They

say that political meetings have been disturbed by youths, and I have been showing who were the people who were guilty of such conduct. I am satisfied that, if there is· anyone who has a claim to a vote, it is the young man and the young woman of the age of eighteen, as against the aboriginal over eighteen years of age being given a vote because he happened to go to the war.

Mr. MORGAN: We have just listened to one of the most insincere speeches that has ever been delivered in this Chamber. The hon. member should be ashamed to talk about old age as he did, because he himself is no " flapper." (Laughter.) He should show some respect for old age. We are all getting on in years, and many of us are more or lees grey ; and if we a,re reaching the age of maturity that is no reason why we should be insulting t<l each other. Because I supportPd the giving of a vote to aboriginals who fought for Australia; the hon. member argues that that is a good reason why we should give votes to white people of eighteen. I certainlv think that I was doing very much more good in endeavouring to gd a .-ote for aboriginals who fought for Australia.

The CHAIRMAN : Order ! The hon. m'ember is now referring to- a matter that was dealt with yesterday.

Elections Act l"l OcTOBER.] Amendment Bill. 1075

Mr. M ORGAN: I think it i> generally recognised as fair that, if one hon. member makPs an accusation, the Chairman should allow another hon. member the right of reply.

The CHAIRMAN : Order ' Order !

Mr. MORGAN: I would sooner be em­ploved in advocating votes for those who foug·ht for Australia than I would be employed, as the hon. member was employed not long ago, in advocating votP>' for disloyal Germans.

The CHAIR::VIAN: Order ! Order ! The hon. member must withdraw that exprer.;;ion.

Mr. M ORGAN: I am only refNring to what is a fact.

The CHAIRMA~: Order ! Order! Mr. MORGAN: I am only referring to

what took place in this Chamber only a few weeks ago.

The CHAIRMAN: The hon. member accused the hon. member for Port Curtis of having attempted to gi' e votes to disloyal Germans. He rr.ust withdraw that state­ment.

Mr. MORGAN: If there is anything unpar­liamentary in the statement, I am prepared -to withdraw it, but I think you ohould allow me to connect my remarks.

'!:.he CHAIRMAN : The hon. member knows that it is a reflection on the hon. member for Port Curtis.

Mr. MORGAN: I think you ought to allow me t<l> connect my remarks.

The CHAIRMAN: The hon. member must withdraw.

Mr. MORGAN: I withdraw. Evidently, we are not all treated alike.

GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Order! Order! Chair ! Chair !

The CHAIRMAN : Order ! The hon. mew·­ber must withdraw that.

Mr. MORGAN: I withdraw; but, all the same, it is my opinion. I desire to point oqt some of the inconsistencies of hon. mem­bers opposite in their speeches, and I think I am absolutely in order when I am answer­ing criticisms that have been levelled by hon. members opposite at hon. members on this side in connection with this clause. The hon. member for Port Ourtis stated that hon. members on this side were not rrspon­sible for giving votes to all adults, and the same remark was made by other hon. mem­bers. Now, it was a Liberal Government that granted adult suffrage and it was aho a Libe·rai Government that gave a vote to the women; so that the accusation of hon, members opposite falls to the ground. In my opinion, the Government are anxious to pass this clause because they see the writing on the wall. They are endeavouring to gerrymander the elections, because they know what judgment the people are likely to pass upon their administration during the last four years. The Auditor-Ge-neral's report has just been presented to Parliament, and the information contained in that report is very alarming to hon. members opposite, who are now looking for some way of evad­ing the troqble that confronts them. They know it is unsafe to rely upon their adminis­trati?n to return them to power at the next electiOns. They know that it is no use point­ing to the wa.y in which they have kept the promiws they ma·de to the electors of

QuePn"land. This i~ thr· on!;~· wa.1: in whi<.ll tlH'Y antieit>ate they eau aga111 SP('ure po,~sc~sion of th{' Treasury b~nc·hPR. But ev<:'rv Govermn<:'nt that has attempted to r··err;,uwnder an election has fail<>cl; and this (;uy0rrllll-Pllt are going to fail rni~f~rably in this attempt. \Y·e have been tokl that young pc•opl0 of eighteen must look out for ther;t· 'elves and that thev are f ~king then part m busin<: ·S and in oth'i>r occupatiom. The hon. 111embeJ· for Port Curtis c,nid that, when a. busirH'HS 1nau Lecorncs snceessful, he be('on1es <.:ons0rvative. and has no time to devote to nolitical qu0stions. 'l'hat is mo;·e str!kingly illustrat,,d in tho casE' of a boy of mghteen "Yho is endeavouring to gain a e0_rtain. stan~­ing, and who is c>ngagcd in learnmg h1s busi­ness or his profession. He is engaged at work that will not enable him to gin' hi·, time to politiPal studir>', and it is not right that he should. At that par'ticular .age-h·om e-io-hl<'<'ll to twenty·one-he should be devot­ing the whole of his time and attention to the occupation he intends to follow through­out life. During those years he is fitting himself to become an efficient workman in connection with any occupation he may be <'ngag<·:l in. Anything that. will take . his attention from that, and wlll deflect mto other channels his thoughts and his .energies, would, in my opinion, prove injurious event!-1-allv to the State of Queensland and Australia generallv. We send our boys to school up to a certain age, becaqse we recognise that during those years they will learn more from an educational point of view than at any other period of their lives. We expect them to devote the whole of their time and atten­tion to their studies. It may not affect one party mbre than the other. The hon. mem­ber referr<>d to environment, and spoke- very detrimentally of the aboriginals of Australia.

Mr. MOORE: They have not got a vote, that is why.

Mr. MORGAN: Yes, that is so. If the argument used by the hon. member for Port Ourtis is carried to its logical conclusion­i: it is a question of the way in which a person has been rear~-those who happen to be fortunate enough to have been reared under the best conditions are more entitled to vote than those who were unfortunate enough to have been reared in slums. Is that democratic? The hon. member will be hauled over the coals by his party at next caucus or he will alter his remarks in " Han­sard."' He certainly made a most undemo­cratic remark, and one which, I feel sur{l, would not be ,-ndorsE'd by the hon. member for Maryborough, who is everlastingly re­ferring to the fact that he believes in one class only. Th.;n we have the hon. member for Mackav speaking in a most contemptuous manner-and I think his action cannot be endorsed bv m'embers of this House-refer­ring to the-speechc,; of dead men. I remem­ber th\l other night, when the hon. member for Bulimba happened to mention the name of the late Hon. Mr. Bowman, there was an outcry from the other side of the House, and 'the hon. member for Flinders (Mr. J\1ullan), by interjection, abused the hon. member for Bulimba.

Mr. MuLLAN: And justly so.

Mr. M ORGAN: The hon. member for Bulimba referred in a manner that was in evt>ry way complimentary to the late Mr. Bowman.

Mr. MuLLAN : Nothing of bhe kind. It was a sneering reference.

Mr. M organ.]

1076 Elections A et [ARS!<iMBLY.] Amendment. Bill.

:.\1r. MORGA~: Tht: hon. memb<;r for Bremer to-day read speeches of dead men. I withdraw my remarks in that re5pect from t.he hon. member for Mackay. I say it wa,, a most contemptuous thing, and was not fa,ir. If he or any other hon. member wishes to bac·k U}l his argunHlHt. why is it n~ces­sary to go back twl'nty or thirty 0 ears and refer to speeches of dead men '! 'I'here should be somebody alive whose speeches could be quoted in that dir<}ction. \Ve can accuse the Commonwealth Labour Govern­mf'nt of introducing conscription of those under a certain age. If we were to accuse the hon. member of being in favour of that, becaus.; he is part and parcel of the Labour party, and to say he had to carry the burdens of all those Labour men, I feel sure the hon. member would not be prepared to carry those burdens, and would not in any way associate himself with many of the things don<z by them. Hon. members cannot deny the fact that it was the Labour Government which introduced conscription into Australia. Jf they do deny it they will be talking about something of which they arc most ignorant, or they wish in some way to mis!Pad thn country.

Mr. O'Ser.LIVAN: The ~ational Government tried to introduc<z conscription for oversea service.

Mr. MORGAN: The only conscription we have had in Australia was introduced by th<· Labour party. We do not "ish to plac€' the responsibility of that upon members of the present Labour Government. \Ve are here purely and simply to carry the burdens W'J have imposed upon ourselves. vVe do not wish to carry the burdens of any other g<:peration. We are quite prepared to resist this par­ticular mattPr to the greatest extent that is possible by an Opposition which has only a small number of votes. \Ve take all tho r,e,pon~<ibility, at this or any other pericd, in connection with the vote we are going to give. \V e recognise that this has not breen asked for, it is not a mandate from the people, it was never placed before the electors Pighteen months ago. The Go\ ern­ment never on any occasion that I sa"' in the Press eta tcd their intention of introducing this particular matter. Now, owing to th<' fact that they are fearful of th<z results at the next election, they are looking for " mode of getting out of the difficulty. They know the present opinions of the people who have a vot<z, and in the expectation that the> will be able to get the votes of these youths and girls from eighteen to twenty-one years of age they are anxious to have this particular am~ndment carried. Th'l only altBrn,tivn made in the Act during the past four years has been one giving votes to criminals who were debarred under previous Acts. It is an extraordinary thing that the Govern­ment did not think it was necessary, prior to· the last election, to include children from eighteen to twenty-one year, of age within the scope of the Elections Act.

Mr. S)IITH: \Ve cannot do everything in one Parliament; we progr<•ss as we go along.

Mr. MORG AN : \V e progress aef'ording to the political situation.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: That. '' where you did not progr<'ss.

Mr. MORGAN: The Government now at''."

endeavouring to progress by alterin~ the Elections Act with a view to getting a further tenurf' of office. They know perfect!~ wc·ll that they cannot appeal to the country in

[Mr. M organ.

;<rE'''ent cireu!nst:tnce.:. rJlhey know th0y lllU:;t

go do,,;Yn. "The writing is On the 'vall," anci th0 Government are doomed. (Government laughter.) The fir:·t sign that a ship is sinking is that the rats start to disappear. Tha.t occur" long before the crew, or thos<? of t•xperienco, know anything ,about the ship bPing in a ,;inking condition. In this casP, the rats arc disappearing in the manner indiratod in connection with the sinking ship. Practically the whole of the reforms­that is, all the sensible reforms-that hav• been given to th<> peopl0 during the pa.st fifty vears eanH' from Liberal Government8. and ~vo are in the position HOW of having ab·,,olutely one of the finest franchise.> in any part of tlh world ; in fact. a franchise almost as good as it is po'"sible to have. 'fo intr(c· duce this pxtn--'nlP reforrn is unnf~Cf'Sf<:t..ry, The fact that tlwrc may have bc<on, perhaps, ono JWrson in ev<>n' 5,000,000 or 6,000,000 who has rnaelwd a ·eertain prominent posi­tion when under the age of twenty-one is no arguuwnt in favour of this altE>r:a~ion. I think that will be admitted by the Mrmster for Ra.ilwa;s. If this amendment is made, to be consistent, the Government would ha'o to amend tlw Act which provides that can­didat.c; for Parlianwnt mav not oo nominated until thC'V a.re twPnty-onc: years of age and ev--ry otl;er statutP where a similar limita.· tion is imposed. So far as the argument. gm's, that because youths of eighteen are eomnelled to abide bv the law they should h>.vf~ a say in making the law, that would appiJ. to a perwn of any age.

'rhe S'ECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION: ThPy come before the Childrt-n's Court wht-n und ''~' the ag<; of eighteen.

]\fr. MORGAN: But it is a mattc'r of punishment, nevertheless. And very often a. man between f'ightof'n and twenty-one who cornmits a. crime gets more lenient treatmt-nt than a person eharged in the Children's Court. bec,use he g<•ts th•~ lwnefit of the first offen dcr\; Rt..)etions, and probably goes scot fref', wh<>n.lH in tlw Children's Court a defendant is gen•'rally ~<'nt. to a rcformato;y for two ur thn'e years. The onlv c0nclu~Ion \Ve can arrive at' i~ tha.t the ,~·hole n1ea.sure is a. vuto-eatching nH'asure, or· one which t1H Labour party anticipate wi!l be a vote>· <'atching measure. They thmk that ver:v, likely there will be a greater number o! those betWPI'n the age of eighk·en and twentv-orH' whose parents are supporter" ot thq Labour party than there will be of _thos•' whose parent- are supporters of the Lrberal party, lwcause, when alf is said e.nd don~· per::;on::J b<'tween eighteen and t\ve-nt~y-one, 111

90 pd c,mt. of cases, will vote in accordan<·•' with the. way in which their parents v~t<·. It practically gives the fatlwr of a fannly. ' or the mother, as the case may be, the oppor· tunity of inf!U<mcing one· or two more v?t'''; I have three children who would be ent1tlecl to a •wte under this clause, and I feel sure that mv children are just as intelligem as the children of the average man. Per· haps, being the children of a :nember ?f Parlianwnt, they take more m~erest n~ politic, than other children. Possrbly, that holds good in respect to the childrt-n of uthPr nwmbers. Yet mv children would, n<> doubt, ask me how to voh•, and when election time came would vote according to my instructions'-in accordance with my wish.

Mr. GLEDSON : Do thev ever ask you why· you are on the wrong side of the House?

.Elections A et [l Om_•omm.] Amendment Bill. 1077

Mr. MORGAN: No, but they do ask me when I am going to get on to the Government side, and I alwavs give them i;he same reply-that is, after the. next dection. (Laughter.) The Labour party have rliscovcred that there are so many thousands of persons between eighteen and twc-nty-onP. and they anticipate they will bo able to get "' majority of those votes. That is the reason for this amendment, which must be treated purely and simply as a political dodge 1·o ~cc·uro vote-s, because thP GovernnlPnt know, and the people of Queensland kno"ii, that thc•y aro gradually drifting on to th" toeks.

Mr. WHITFORD (Burrum): After hear­ing 'omo tripe and piffie and blathr rskik rr-om mf'mbors on the other sid,>- --

::\Ir_ 1\lORGAN: I rise to a point of order, I think therr? 'hould be no rH'"on fn · P n·· fnf'n)b•r to do so, but whPn Illl'nlbers. n'fP.r io other nwmbers as having talked piffir•. blathc>rskite. and tripe, I think it is tcmr· '-'m1e exception ''as taken to it.

ThP CHAIRMA=": I do Hot tl:nk r.fmt 'h~-- languag-e is parlian1entary.

l\lr. \VHITFORD: I do not int<"Hd '" ''"ult !ton. mf'mbcr;; on th• other ,id•·. but. .nr•vPrthelest~, I f'till have 1ny opinion in con­nn·tion with thr> matti•r. ThP hon. uH-mber f?r Ilalby oaid that bctwPPn tlw aw•s of mghteen and twenty-one thP pcopl0 should have all the time po-sible to fit the•11selves for their· futurp life. I venturp to >-av that both thP hon, member for Dalbv aiid the hon. mPmber for Drayton, if they had the opportunity, would havp people working ,.ix­h•en hours a dav so that they would not havt• thn ovportunit•_;: to fit th<:'nl'l'V]ps for t]wj,_­futnre Jifp_

l'vlr. YOWLER: Is it- not a hrua!'h ,_,f th·· L~,ws to make peoplP 'vork ~.dxtPf':n hour~ day?

Mr. \VHI'l'FORD: It was not al on<:· tirn+•, .tnd well you know it.

GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

:2\Ir. VOWLES : But you said wf' ould do it. I rise to a point of order. The hon. niemb<?r has said that if I had my way I would make people commit a brPaeh of the law.

Mr. WHI1'FORD: I did not ,;ay that. -:\lr. VOWLES: You did. I want to kn,3w

vchether the hon. member is m order. '!'he CHAIRMAX : So far as J ean eee.

hert> is no point of order. Mr. VOWLES: He is practically eharging­

mP >>ith committing the offencp of workin,f! p- cop lP over eight hours a da.'.

Mr. WHITFORD : What I said was that. if somp pPop]p had their ways, through le-gislation the people would be working six­h,en hours a dav-which has been done in thl' pa8t, Thanks to the Labour party, that ha" bet•n altered, and it has mad<' it possible for people to live. GOYER~MENT JI.1E>IBERS: Hear. lwar: Mr. WHI'l'FORD: :'-Jot so VPry loll!{ ago

h<m. members, and people in otlwr 'parts nf Australia of the same kidncv, wtmt on tht' husting,; and advocated that youths of eightPen years of agp should go to thn war.

Mr. ClUNN: I ri>oe to a point of order. 1 never advocated that vonths of ei o-hteen -<hould go to the war and nobody _,~J:,e on this side did.

The CHAIRJ\!IAX: Order! J a·•k hon. mPmbers to refrain from raising frivolous points of ordPr. There is nothing in the point the hon. member for Carnarvon has just raised.

Mr. Ut-~~: l do not think it is frivolous. l nevPr oaid that.

Tht~ CHAIRMAN : The hon. member did not at;t'l!H' thP hon. member for Carnarvon nf dl,ing so.

Mr. \'owr.E,;: HP a('eused evervone on this 'ido. ·

Mr. WHIT FORD: tionwbod, must have -~. guilty conscience.

Th'' CHAIRMAX: Order ! I ask the hon. member to l·onfino his remarks to clause 5 nf tht' Rill.

Mr .. \VHITFORD: I elaim that if la·cls of <'i!!;hh"'-n vears of age should go to the war. tl\cy .-hn~ld lHLYO a voice in the affairs of tht: eountrv. and I also think that lads of t•ight-P n y(·;,rs of age who wQre mainta!ning the home' of widowed mothers, of sisters :tnd broihcr', Fhould haYc a vote, too. (Hear, hear !l \Vith reg-ard to conferring the fran­ehisP ·on young peoplP of eighte-en years of <H.<;t·, l should like to read a passage from

· a spPech dt>livere-d by Captain [5.30 p.nJ.l Elliot, a Conservative Unionist,

~ a rPturned fioldi('l' r~prescnting L1.!1ark in thP Home of Commons. This speech WO'S delivered on the 27th February <>f this :;·par. Captain Elliot- said-

" 'l'h0 Bill proposed to enfranchise the y,nmg pf'ople of. the country, If th<;re wa, any cl as:; whwh shoul-d have a voice iu government, it was the young people who had suffQred from the blindness and incompetence of their e-Iders. Men had suffNf'd in blood, and women in tears, becausP hoarv antcdiJuvians who go­verned in Parliament, had been unable to "''" what was as clearly be-fore them as the> noses on t-heir face~. (Laughter.) Time and again they had shied off from taking decisions because they were afraid. If thPTe wao one thing which charac­te-rised tlw politics and philosophy of the leadPrs of t-hP Victorian era, which he might say all ,.ucceeding !frmerations •vould spit upon-(laughter)-It was the fact that their politics were governed by hot heads and cold feet. (Laughter.) These were thE' old people who let the present. Q'l'UNation in for the war with Germanv, who led them up to it, and then said, " Go on, you gallant fello~s, we don't want io lose you, but we thmk you ought to go," (Laug~ter.) The malr- si'ction of the cnmmumt.. between <'ightPl'll and thirty had been "decimated in. this war. because of the lack of clear t-hinking of their AlderE<. The tragedy of this war was not the tragedy of the :;·oung m••n who had falli.'n in th,~ flush nf battlP. but the tragedy was 1n the lives of the women wasted because of those· men who hacl died. If tht•re was one' H'dion of the community that we uoul<l trnst to defend us against tho sense­lr,ss anan·hv of Bolshevism, it was the young wm;Ic-n betwc•en eighteen and thirtv who had se-en most of their natu~~l protectors and mates slaughtered in the fid-ds of France and Flanders, and who had no wish to see the small re­HLlinder killed in the streets of London and Glasgow: (Cheers.)''

'l'hE' men who have had the courage to go

Mr. Whitford.}

1078 Elections Act [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

to the front, and the men who stayed behind. arp <'qually entitled to a voice in the govern­ment of this country. The hon. member for Mm·illa ~ays that the Governme-nt can see tht· writing on the wall. I should like to remind the hon. member with regard to that that much stronger politicians than he have been defeated after se-eing "the writing on the wall." I intend to support the Bill through all its 6tage,s, because it is onh- a democratic mt~asure for which this Gov~rn­mPnt stands. (Hear, hear !)

'\1r. GC~:';': I am interested to know how this· Bill wa~ born, and where it was born. At the last election there was no call for an alteration of the> franchise in this direc­tivn. It is only lately that it has been sug­g, ·t< ·I b~- the Trades Hall that this alteration should hP made in the franchise and the:v have sent instructions to the Gov~rnment to bring in this Bill. That is whe-re this Bill h'" corm• from. It seems t<J me that thE\ Government of the dav have seen "the writing on the wall," 'and that they are grasping at anything they can lay hold of in order to keep in powe·r. Tlwy are pander­ing to the people who are in gaol-in fact thPy have practieally let them out of gaol: so that tlw;.· can give them their votes. They ha' e pandere-d to alnwst every evildoer in order to get pe<Jple to exercise franchise in their favo11r, and now they are looking round to "'"" what otht'rs they can give the fran­<:his' to. This whole measure from beginning to <'nd is n<Jthing but a vote-catching Bill. If the Government wanted to do justice to the vot<:rs of Queensland, why did they not gn·e the samP value to votes in the Toombul f"'Pdorate as is given to votes in the Chil­lagoe. or sonw other elect<Jrate where one man has just as much voting p~wer as five and a-half men in the Toombul electorate?

H!~T!. ,,~_ H. B~':.R:-~ES: "\Ylr.at about Buiirnba 'r Mr. GrN~: The position is worse in

Bulimba. We know that the Premier is thi~king of leaving the Ministry, and that varwus other members are thinking of leav­ing the Ministry, and this measure may b" n·garded as th.; forlorn hope by which th" Government hope to retain their seats on the Treasury benches. '.rhose seats thev do not !.old by a ~-E;ry large majority of th'e people. Th.; Opposition represent 45 rwr ct'nt. of tlw p<'ople of Qu<'ensland.

The CHAIRMAN : Order ! I remind t!w hon. mt>mbt'r that we are discussing clause 5. , Mr. GUNX: I bow to your ruling, Mr.

Chauman. One hon. member, I think it was the Assistant Minist~r for Justice, made reference last night to poets who are dead and gone, and said they had matured verv quickly. Yes_, theJ! matured very quickly, but my cxper!cnce IB that all po<;ts are more or less lunatics. (Laughter.) Between the ages of eighteen and twenty-one, when a man thinks it is necessary to write to his b<;st girl. he invariably tries to do it in poetry.

Mr. S~nur: Ar<' you speaking from ex­perience?

Mr. GUNN: People of that age have no thought of politics at all. Their thoughts are all about spooning, going to balls, to parties, and to picture shows-their troubles about legislating for the country ! The hon. g"ntleman also mentioned the poet Cowper, and said he matured verv early in life. But it was not very long ,;:fterwards before hP tri0d to commit suicidt', and latE>r on he

[Mr. WMtford.

did commit sui,ide. I do not think that is any qualification for a man J:<l ex~rc!se the franchise. (Laught.;r.) I thmk It IB also this poet that the story is told of how he went to his study and found that he had left rho cat outside, that he cut a hole in thf• door, and then discovered that he had for­gotten that there was also a kitten. Most s~nsible people would have thought that the kitten could have got through the hole made for the cat, but this clever poet cut ":nother ],o]o for the kitten. (Laughter.) 'l'h!S may ha w• beeu very clever on th.; part ?f th~ poet, but it does not show any qualificatiOn to hecomc a voter in the State of Queensland. (RenE>wed laughter.) \Ye can apply the sam<) argument in another way. Plant a row of crcbbagcs anywhere, and you will find that wmo will m·ature quickly while some are verv backward. Those that mature quickly die- quickly. It is the same with human beings.

Mr. \V. COOPER: It took you a long timL to mature.

Mr. GUNN: I may have taken a long time to mature, but I do not think I am any the worse on that account. If you alter the franchis0 in the way proposed, the next ste.p will be to alter the law in many other ft'spects. because as the law now stands, rwrents have power to refuse consent to the marriage of a daughter or son until she or hL has attain"d the age of twenty-<me years. If you are going to give them the vote that will be broken down. That is a very neces­sary provision. It often happens tha~ a youth at that spoony age has not sufficient N.periPnce to be abl<: to choose a proper partner for life. (Laughter.) It often happc·ns that somebody makes a 15ift to your ehild of a freehold, and a mmor cannot transfpr it till he reaches the age '?f t_w!Znty~ ~~rrl. :!":1 s~:r:.:',,,, cr.c0n.y moment un 1nd1v::.dual may give it away to his best girl, and i~ ma,y tnrn out she is the wrong pernon to give It ro; wher.t•a>. the law now protects that vonth. and he is not allow~d to transfer the \n·opertv until he is twenty-one. After hundre-ds <Jf vears of experience it has been laid down that twenty-one is the proper age at. which to have control of your prop<;rty and have a vote. It is the proper age of discretion. 'l'hcn we on this side have been aecused of dl'manding that eighteen-year-old people should go to the front. Nothing of the sort. Eighteen-y<;ar-old people _may be asked to be trained, but I am agau;Ist an_y man going into the fighting line until he '" twenty-one years of ag.e. The. Fisher Labour (;ovqrnment brought 111 a Bill for c_ompul­sorv training at eight<>en, and this IS on_ly earrying out the same lines. '.rhe only dif­ference is that, under the Labour Govern­ment's Bill, you could compel every!:'ody, even at eight.;:en years of age, to fight 111 Queens· land or Australia, but you could not maB;e them go across the water. In the late war It was better for 'us to fight across the water than to wait till an enemy came to our short''· Then, again, is it advisable for the sake of peac<} to give yout~ a vote? . I notice that whenever a vote IS taken !VIth regard to a strike it is always the Irre­sponsible youths whb #vote for a strike. They arE' the ones who always want to do. t'!:~ fight­ing. '.rh<]y have not the responsibility or experience which comes with age. It was the young m'en under twenty-one who wanted to go to the war. How many parel!ts have had to restrain their boys from gomg? I have often se"n youths of eighteen--Jlome of

Elections Act [l OCTOBER.] Amendment Bill. 1079-

my own connections-who have gone to the war. Their parents did not want them to go, but after repeated requests allowed them to go. If we allow this amendm<;nt, should it come to a question of whether we should fight or not, you would find all the youths would vote in favour of a war, because they' have not got the experience which olde1· peopl<; have.

Mr. SMITH: It is the other way about. "'Iany young nwn voted against conScription. Some people did not want to go to the war. but wanted to send young men to the war.

Mr. GDNN: It is the younger members of the unions who vote for strikes-members who are not matured, and who have not got any re,;ponsibilities. If the youths of Au'­tralia had a vote. and vou had to take a rderendum to-morrow, they are the poop],. who would vote for war. I do not know whv it ;,, but all the youths want to bP piratP·­or bushrangers. (Laughter.) En•ry youth goes through that 1wriod, and you will find it the same in this ca&e. If I thought thi~ measure would he for the benefit of Queens­land, I would vote for it to-morrov:; but I think that the more experience 1wople hav<' bE>fore they get the vote the better it is for the State. It is all Y£rv well to sav that tlw young people have had a hNter ·,,ducr1tion than the old people, but that defect will b<• cured in time wlwn the youths grow up. I think if we pass this Bill it will be found tu be to the detrimE>nt of Queensland, and I an1, therefore, g·oing to voh:. against it.

::Ylr. :MOORE (.1ubigny): I would lih to 'ay a few words in opposition to this ridicu­lous; proposal. Onf' of thP strongc~t reason!­against it is, in my opinion, fhe absolute• impo•sibility of gPtting the State and Federal rolls uniform if we adopt it. \YP want to get the income tax, the land tax. and the Federal rolls all on one plan<'. "' tlut we will know when' wP are.

1>11-. SMITH: You oppoeed the Yahwtion of Land Hill.

Mr. MOORE: It is not a question of oppo>­ing thf> Valuation of Land Bill. I will oppose any Bill which does not contain fair provisions. We hear a lot of argument about the better education of the pPoplP at tlw present ·day on~bling tlwm to give un intelli­gent votP. It IS onlv Iweessarv to read thP advertisements in the' paper to rPfute that. or to go to any agrieultural show to see thP tents of palmist;, soothsay<•rs, clairvoyants, and crystal gazers- --everything that ·pander> to the ignorant--·who arp making their living· at the present day. The;~- used to burn witches, but now we find that these bUper­stitions reign throughout Australia. All these people arc fatt<>ning on the ignoranc(• of our population. \Yhut impertinence to say that the education of the present day i" BO much suporiol' to what it was t1Jat it entitles young people to a votP !

Mr. SMITH: Very few people of c>ightePn patronise palmists.

Mr. MOORE: You hav<> only to go to shows where clairvoyants are practising to Bee the queue of young girl::-; who -,vant to ~PP who they are going to marry.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUC'riOK : There are some of the old ones there, too. (Laughter.)

Mr. MOORE: Some of the old om'' who go there have made a mistakB in their youth. and they, perhaps, think then' will be a. chancf> of remf>dying it later on. (Laughter. i

Th<'v do not want to make the same mistake­again. The fact that these people are mak­ing a living in the State to-day shows thR ignorance which is rampant. Is it going to bo for the benefit of ;l'oung people under twenty-one to have a vote? There was ,_, great talk aboub soldiers having a vote. I quite agree with it. \Vhen a man went t.o the war, and had his mind enlarged by the C'<:pl'riences hP went throng h, he became better qualified to exercise a vote than one who st,aved at home. The hon. member for Port Cui,tis said that if a man was physieally f!t it did not matter whether he went to the war or not. but I say that a man who "as physically and mentally fit, and realised '"hat his obligations were, is better qualified th·1n onP who was physically fit but not rnentally Gr. \Ve haYe to recognise that. if we extf'nd t hiB provi,ion, and it operate• in the way antieipat<>d, there will be about 40.000 extra vol • , nut on the roll in Queen6land. IB it going- to be to th<• advantage of any particular part,-? I suppose the present U<n c>rmn •nt think it is going to be' to their· advantagt~; oth(,rwiRP. thr•y would not ha Ye hrong-ht it in.

The .\.cn:-w l'RE~llER: \Vhat do you tltink ':

~h. ,\100RE : I think it will mah a dif­f•·rc•n<·e in the fir,;t eh,ction. bPeause thoB<' who e.re young are naturally h•d away Inore J,y JH'omises by <1 party who otate on tlll' platform that- they are goir:g t~ take monPy away from somebody and grYe 1t to someor:P <'hP. Tht> platform of the Labour party u no <!ouht attractiYP to ,.o1mg people, but the old"r tlll'~· get and the 1nore ('Xpf'riPnf'e tlwv obtain. the mor<· thev will rPalisP ihe· rni;1 akP:-: the>y In£Hle in theii· youth.

,\fr. GLEI>~oo;: Art> you prepared to takl' ... ul:nt•thing {nvay frorn thP workPrs arHl g-ive it to "Oln<>one ebP?

::VIr. ::VIOORE: Thl' poliey of the La bout· partv i:-:; to talul sornething away fron1 s.ontPfi ho<h: who lws workPd and saved it, and givn it- t~> .;omebodv who will not work to-dav. Thosp are th<' .promise\ which t-hev makP on the Jllatform, which the young people <11'<' lik<•lv to be gulled bv. and find later on that tlwv'haY<.' made u rrtistake. I do not think thi~ proposal is a fair thing- or for the b<enefit uf tlw State>. Ko argument has been adduced by an~· hon. member opposite to show that t,hr vote of young 1nen and 1von1en under twC>ntv-onp i,, likely to bt• of advantage to Quem;slaml. It has· been argued that, beeum< someone wa6 ex<'<>ptionally brilliant, or be­{_·aus.l1 son1e girl at eighteen \vas a 1notht=>r. a vote shouhl be given at that age. But no n- awn has been given to show that the averag~ intf'lligenco . o~ the persons of c•ightec>n vears of age 1s likely to get a hE>tter dass of inan into Parliament, or is likely in do am·thino· that will bem,fit the StatP as a whole>: \\1.len a, measure like this is brought forward, some rea~on should he given for it-< introduction. Some better reason ohould be gh·en than that youths of eighteen an· included in awar·ds giv.~n b;~· the Inch'"­trial Arbitration Court.

::Vlt. O'SFLLIYAX: It is broug-ht in becaw<c \\" :HP prt'pared to trust the people.

'Mr. ::VlOORE : The Government are pre­pared to trubt the people to such a limited C!Xtent that on practically every Bill brought­in one ::V1inister or another has to cleoid<• ; very qu0stion. TIH'Y are not prepare<_f t<> trust the people at all. How many tmlPS havp '\VP ~cen thf\ pre,pnt Govf~rnment refuse'"'

Mr. Moore.]

1080 Ei""ctions Act [ASSE:.VIBLY.] Amendmen~ Bill.

to allow matter, to b" rPfened to a poll by loeal authoriti<!S?

The CIIAIRMA='i : Ord<.>r ~

Mr. MOORE: How many times bavo we '""'''n where a poll has been tak<•n and thc> Government have over-ridden the decision of the people? Not one sound argument has lwen adduced on the other side in supp•Jl't of this proposal. 'rho othPr night the hon. nwmher for Lockyer c.aid that he thought only about 25 per <'ent. of the people at an <>rdinary p]eetion gave an intelligent vote, and vw have to recognise that the Govern­mPnt art' once more bringing forward th•• Popular fnitiativc and Refe,·Pndum Bill. under whieh n1ost eotnplex quPstion:-: an_~ going to be subn1itted to a referendu1n of thP ]Ko]lit•. lf, in an ordinary <•lection, only 25 rwr ctmt. of tlw pPople arP eapable of g-iviH;r an intelligent votD, what vvill be the vor.ition \Vht'n eornplPx queBtions arP f'ubrnitted to a referm1chun at ,rhirh young people of eighteen ar<' to haY~ a votP? A few pro­digies-a few prer.o..,ious youths-n1ay bP qualified, but the aYerag<' run of young peoplE> of eight<Jon will not be quali!it•d to vote on ;;uch difficult mattPr;; as refPrc·nda Jn·oposa1s. \Vht?n we 'vere- discussing th(' Popular Iuitiativ<• aud RPferc>ndum Bill ill prPv-ious session~, we w,•rp told that quPstion' that would he submittNl to the people undnr that m<"asur« would require· a great deal of knowkdg" and explanation beforf' thn elPe­tors could giv0 an intelligent YOtr>. h it likely that, by reducing the age• for voting, WP an" going to get a. Illlh.>.h tnore i11te1ljgf'Ht. \ t}t{\ ': If W~" are going to have a ref.PrPudurn on <·tcrtain Iuoral and o;,.ocial qutw,tions, i~ it likely that th,w• young peoplP arP going to give a mon• intelligent voh•, and a vot.• more ealculat<•d to benefit tlw eommunity, than thn oldP!' peopl<l 'I ·

~Ir. S~!!TH: An intc>lligPut ~"Outh <'aJl givt• .a better voh• than a erazy old man.

i\Ir. MOOHE: Th" historY of thP world up to the present proves th~t experienee is one of the best teacehrs you can have, and that all the theory that youth can learn from books is likely to be corrected by experience in latE'r life•; and I do not think it is likely that the youthful voter in a referendum is going to vote in a way thaJ will be fm· the advancement of the com­munity. I can imaginP many instances in which they >Yill not.

1fr. s~nTH: Youth i, generally animatP<l b;~· idE-ab. old age by personal consideration>.

Mr. MOO RE: According to my exporiencP, vouth is g<•n<:>rally infhwnced by the person who makes the most promises; and there is no question that the Labour party will promise anything. They realise that the youthful voter is mar<• likely to be takt·n in by ]Jromis<•s than the experieilC'ed man, who is guided by the knowledge of what has gone bPfore. A youth who goes to hear a. Labour Drator for the first time on a plat­form is vNv often carried awav. I havE' f\YC'll :St>en a;1 ol<l fannf'r going fn listen to ]\,fr. Holman on the wheat question in I\cw South \Vales who ca_me awav and said: ''There is no doubt the Lal;our party is 1·ight in this mattPr." Probably, in three months, he would discow•r, after thinking the matter ov<·r, that hE' had been carried away by :Mr. Holman's eloquence. V>'e have> to guard against that kind of thing. I do not wish to make it appear that I consider

[M,r • . Moore.

tlH' youthful membPrs of Bociety are not intelligent; but I say they have not got nxperi<'nce and they art:' likely to be led astray. \\' o know that in factories, and in eonn,:ction with industrial life, it is the young pPople who are the extremists, as a rule, and

·we know how the Labour party pandc>r to the extremists. I do not suppose that th0 Government would have brought in this amendmDnt of t.he Elections Act if they had not thom;ht it would gain them mon• votl>s. Tlwv thi-nk they are going to seeuw mort' vott,':4. by HlJlH'a ling to the int~xperlenc~ uf tlH-' youthful yoter. Is not that a reasonablr• ~upposition Y P<'rsonally, I think it . is .a mistaken policv. It should be thn desire of eYerv hon. mc:mbe1· at the present time to reLh;ee ,·xpf•nditure, and one way in which <'xpcditurc might be reduced would be b.y haYing uniform dedoral rolls; but there IS

no l"''"ihle chanee of getting a uniform ro}l if this propoeal is c:trri<•d, because ther<' 1R

110t tlw slight!'st chanc<> of the Federal Go,~t\rnnlt•nt b0ing so silly as t<> n1akP a ~iruibu· altrration in thP franchiRn.

Tlw SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: That would not prPV<•nt uniforn1 rollH.

Hon. J. (j-oyprnnH•nt principll'.

LARC'O:IIBE : The C'ommouwealth han• already acceptPd thr•

::'vh. ::'viOORE: They wen• prepared to giYP a YOtt' to thP young men who \Ve!lt to the war bccaus;• thev were not only physically Jit bnt mentally fit, and reeognised their rP''l >on~ibilit~v.

Hon. J. L\Rl'O\!BF.: Th<'Y introduc'''l thi' principlP.

1lr. }lOO HE: The principle thPy . in!ro duced was ypry different to the prmciple JHOJ>O"'d in this Bill; and the hon. gentlem':n krHnv' that th<' Commonwealth proposa.l will terminate bv effiuxion of time in about two years. but this proposal is to be permanent. it is to apply to all young pe~sons as they n'ach thr• agP of eig-hteen. J'\ot one ho:1. m<'mhcr opposite has shown any way m which this is likely to be for the betterment of th" StatP. 'l'hey have really not advanced arguments at all ; they have only made excuses for advocating .a bad eause.

Hon. J. LARCmiBE: Do you know that th<• Brisbanp "Courier" supports this principle?

~Ir. C.IOORE: It does not matter to me what t!JP Brisbane "Courier" supports, or wha.t the ''Daily Mail" supports, or ""hat the ·' Dailv Standard" supports. Those things do ;lOt wor.ry me Jn the :e!'y least. \Vhat I am objectmg to 1s thfl g1nng of a vott' to youths of eighteen.

(Sitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7 p.m.)

Mr PETRIE : I did not have the oppor­tu;it.~ when the second reading of this Bill was o;,, of saying anything either in fav~ur of it or against it, and I would now hke to sav a few words on the clause which we ha YP 'been discussing all the afternoon. One thin"' which I regret very much indc0d is that "wme members on the oposite side of the HousP, in debating questions, not only as far as this Bill is concerned. but in regard to othPrs, are in the habit of indulging very much in personalities and "mud-slinging." If this Chamber took the stand of upholding the dignitv of the Chair and of the Chamber, the debates would be somewhat altered.

Elections Act [1 0CTOBER.l Amendment Bill. 1081

The CHAIRMA~ : Order ! The hon. membet· must deal with the clause before th,_· Committee.

:VIr. PETRIE : I am going to deal with the elause. ·what we are discussing is that the age should be reduced from twenty-one to ,,evente0n, (Laughter.) I should have said ••ight0en-it was just a slip. It amounts to the same thing; the year does not make

<'ry much difference. I do not know that any arguments have been adduced by nwmbers on the opposite side to prove thf nece,sity for the reduction of the ago to .-,ighteen. Thnre is no doubt, a3 has been pointPd out by members on the other side, that there are plenty of intelligent young -nPn and young women of the age of eighteen. l would also like to S"-Y they have now arlnmiages of education that their parent> did not. hav0 in their time. But be, ause therf' am a few who have this intelligence is not , rutson why >ve shonld reduce' the age. I

:._now a case of intdligence with a boy six­'CN·n yl'ar·• of age. If I may hP permitted to l,p]] the ·-tory to the Home, I would like to Rav it was the casp of a. Gern1nn who had an cnily child. The father was ver:; proud of this boy; he thought he was a den•r boy, and when the boy was twelve ,·earc of ago he wa' watehing him to know in which way his mind was bent. YVhon the bov arrived

,i,d<>en years of age the father (:ould not :ontain himsP!f any longer and ho said, "Xow, I must test that boy. When he is nnt of his room to-morrow, on his table I VI ill put a sovereign, a bottle of whisky, a'ld a Biblo. 'When that boy COIJltS in, if ho takes that money he will be a bw,ine,s man; if ho takes the whiskv, he will be a drunkard and will not be any' good ; and, if he takes -th<> Bible, he will be a preacher." (Laughter.) The old gentleman orried out his intention nn the following day, and hid himself behind " curtain in his bov' s room. Soon after-

ards tho boy came in, his hands in his IJOok<>t, whistling. He wont to the table, c;TabbC'd the sov<>reign and put it in his J!Ocket, took the cork out of the bottle of whisky and had a good swig, put the bottle down on the table, took up the Bible and put it under his arm. 'rho father got very excit_ed. stuck his head out and said, " My g-racwus goodness, that boy will be a politi­cian." (Loud laughter.) I may say the f!'thcr of this boy was a socialist, and very hkely the boy may have followed in his footsteps. Because the father proved him to b<• a clever lad in that he took the lot it does not follow that it would be safe' to give that boy a vote at eighteen "ears of age, Some members on the other side have l'e~erred t'? members on. this side as always bcmg agamst an extension of the franchise. It was pointed out by one or two members last night that the adult suffrage was given by the Liberal Governnient.

Mr. FoLEY: What !

:\-lr. PETRIE : Yes, it "ae. I do not soo how we can be accused of anything in that direction. Aecording to some hon. members opposito, we on this side arf' everything that is bad.

rt'he CHAIRMAl'< : Order ! Ordr,r •

Mr. PETRIE : They ;;an see no g·ood in any member of the Opposition. The hon. member for Burrum said that if we had our wav we would make mem work sixteen hours a day.

The CHAIRMAN: Order! I have alreadv called the hon. member to ordor. '

Mr. PETRIE: Yes, perhaps I am digress­in~<. Hon. members opposite have ,been talking so much round the subject this after­noon that I want to reply to a few of thes& littl" criticisms.

The CHAIRMA~ : Order ! I called the hon. member for Burrum to order because he "as digr·essing in the ••ame manner.

Mr. PETRIE: All I wish to sa:v is that I was insT"run1ental in starting eight hours a day in the building trade in Queensland.

0PFOSITIOX l\1E:J:BERS: Hear, hear! ·

Mr. PETRIE : It appears to me that every llPW Government that corn.e into power-I ouppc·e in a way I cannot blame them-have a new Elections Act. This Government brought in one, in 1915. Now they come along with aJHJtlwr, the whole crux of which i,; the reduction of the age from twcnty-om•

· to <>ightccn years. \Yhat their object is in having this rE'duction I do not know. I suppose, should thi-< become law and the age b" rf'dm:ed, VI'(' will get a good number of vote' on this ,ide of the House from young Int:n and younv. 1YOinen of eighteen years of age. Onf' hon. membcr-I think on the othc·r si de of the l-Ious.,-said there was only about 25 p0r cent. of the electors who had any intelligence.

l\lr. F. A. CoOPER: Seventy-five per c~nt.

Mr. PETRIE: If that is so. when this Bill i, pasoPd I do 1:ot know that that position "ill not be very much worse.

Mr. RIORDAC>;: ·what merr_.1ber ,,aid that 1 l\lr. PETRIE : A member on the hon.

nwmber's side of the House. I think it was thc' hem. membPr for the Logan.

Mr .. JA~!ES : I never said that. Mr. PI~TRIE: If the hon. memhf'r did

not ilay it, I apologise to him. Although thr>rP have bf'l--'ll geninRt?S at ages ranging from eightPen to twenty-one years, that is no reason whv the fram·hise should be extended to include pcoplf' between those ages. I think twenty-one is quite young enough, and I hope the good sense of this Chamb<'r will soe that no alteration i:~ made. Of oourse, on this side we ha vc no possible hope of earr~-ing anything; even if we move-d an amendment on this ))articular clause or tried to &ecure the deletion of it altogether, we would be just in the same position as we were when we statted. A lot has been said with regard to educating the young people. I believe to-day the women are taking a. keen interest in politics, and are {'ducating them­selves in that regard as fast as they can. I do not think the Government are in earne't with r<'gard to this production, be-cause I believe that the older members of the party are not in favour of it at all. They have in their ranks a lot of rising young members who are anxious to do all oorts of things; but let me point out that young h,~,ds arP all the better for having ol-der headB to guide them. \Ve han; seen in business that ·-ons have followed their fathers 01nd wanted to take things all their mHl wav. Sometimes the result has been disastrmis, wher-eas, if they had listened to tlw advice of their father-c., probably things would not ha.-e lwen as bad as they were. 'l'lw same thing applies to this nKcasure. If thl' Gov-ernment are going to rush into it simply because a lot of members on the other side think that they will gain votes by it, they may fall in, because young people­or some of them-get so enamoured of them· selves. get so conceited, that they think

Mr. P·-tri,• J

1082 Elections _' et [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

nobody el;e knows anything. Some reflection' hav<:) been cast on older men by some mem­bers on that side of the House. We should respect age>, and very often advice from our elders would be to our advantage if we took it. I hope that the little adyiee I have given regarding debates will be taken in the 6pirit in which it is meant. I haYe just had handed to me a copy of ·• Hansard," from which I notice that it was Mr. Butler. the hon. member for Lockyer, who said- ·

"I am ypry pleased to know that some hon. members opposite--"

The CI-IAIRMAX : Ord<'r l The hon. m;:mbcr i,; out of order in quoting from a speech of t)w l1r<' ·"nt session.

:!\Ir. PETRIF.: The effect of his rPmarks, at all ey€_nts, was that he did not b?lievo that 75 per cent. of the electors of (~ueens­land, or Australia, or of any part of the world, h"d a thorough knowledge of the qunt.ions upon which they voted at the ballot-box. So that I was wrong in attribut­ing the remarks to the hon. member for Logan, . and I apologise tQ hi111. I think that our Elections Act, passed by th_P present Go,-ernm<'nt, could be amendPd m many directions. \Vhat we want wlwn fighting an election is to have a fair and ~quare deal for both sides, and, unfortunately, WP did not get that at the last election.

The CHAIRMA:\' : Order ! Order ! Mr. PETRIE: We want to purify our

rolls-probably we shall haye an opportunity of •·aying something on that later on.

Th0 CHAIRMAX: Order! OrdPr:

Mr. PETRIE: I r<•gret that the nece,sity has a,ri~en from the point of view of the Government and their followers to reduce the :1ge ham twenty-one to eighteen. The a "e of twenty-onP is quite young e1_10ugh. A lot of young people do not know then own mindc. ThPv have to be guided bv "·hat their parent; or others tell ·them, ar1'd it is far lwttcr to let the matter rest where it is.

Mr. GLEDSOX (Jps11'ich): I was hoping that this olause would go through without so much discussion-(Hear, hear !).-because I thought that all members would recognise that the boy« and girls of yesterday are the men an-cl women of to-dav. I think that that is the attitude we nee-d "to adopt in looking at this matter. The young peoplP who have heen ealled various names by the Opposition. from " flappers" upwards or downwards, irresponsible boys and girls who do not know what th0y are doing, and so on, will be th;: men and women of to-morrow. And th06c' are the people for whom we are legislating, not for those whose time has almost run. I would like to point out also that it is not propooed to giyo every young man and woman of eighteen a vote, but it is pro­posed to enable them to put in their claims and get on the roll, which is quite a different matter. 'fhe hon. member for Carnaryon said that he did not want to take boys of eighteen and send them to the front, but he did want to take boys of eighteen and train them so that when they were fit and ready they oould go away to the slaughter a.t the front. The chan~es are that many young men _or women will be twenty years of age and m some' cases nearly twenty-one before they are called upon to exercise their rights.

Mr. SIZER: What if an election took plac.e a "eek after they were enrolled?

[Mr. Pt'-trie.

::llr. GLEDf:lOX: They would be entitle-d to a vote, but an election is not going to take IJlacc every week, whereas names are· being placed on th« rolls, and young m.en and women ar<> reaching the age of eighteen cv<:>ry week. An election takes place every three years when the Labour party is in power, but the Opposition, if by some chance they we"c able t,, obtain the reins of govern­mellt, would introduce a measure for five­year Parliamel!ts, as they foreshadowed, which woukl nwan that there would be five vear~ befm"' there· was another election. I \vas plc• a sed to hear the hon. member for :Vhuilla mend hi' ways and practically teach t 11e Opposition a lesson. Instead of calling the comi1w women of eightee-n "Happen," b; term0d them "young ladies." (Laughter.) I think lw ha•, "een the "writing on the wall," aud knows that this Bill is going to lwcomc law, oo that at the next e-lection h.­will be able to get on the stump, turn up his "Han,;ard" and read out how he referred to the "young ladiec: of eighteen," and then t< ll them, "The Parliament of Queensland, and I wa' ono of them''-sticking out his chest in a n1anly way-" gave you vot.es." !Laughter.) Another point I want to empha­,isc' io that in manv of our industries lads arc JookE•d Upon as rnen-get men's pay and are c·alled upon to ·clo men's work. So, too, :·oung women arP called l!pon to do women's work wh,•n eighteen :years of age, and they arc• quite' capable-in fact, far more capable than oonw members who have reached gre-ater ages than eighteen. It is not a question of age in en·r;: n•c•, and the members of the CioY...rnna·nt bide have not in any of thGir remarl" cast. any disparagement upon age.

:.VIr. VoWLES: Did you hear what the hon. member for Port Curtis said?

ML GLEDSO;'\[: Yes. He oaid nothing <lisparaging about the older men and women of the State. HP certainly said that the older people were not any better able to perform hw duties of electors than young men and women of e-ighteen. \Vith rega!'d to mem­hor' of thr: Opposition advocating that the age •.hould be raised t{) twenty-five years, I would point out that as men and women g'et older thc·ir jnterests in life become less, while the younp: people have more at stake. I hope that the clause will go through, and that the Oppo•ition will assist us to place the Bill on the statute-book, because we know that, if they issue the edict that the Bill is not to go through, they have a majority in the Upp~r Houec•, and can block the passage of the Bill.

Mr. SW A Y:\E: I do not wish to chrtrge the hon. member who has just rooumed his ,eat with wilful misrepresentation, but cer­tainly he misrepresented the meaning of this amendment when he said it did not give a Yote to young people of eighteen years of age, but simply provided for the training of young people to exercise the franchise. The proposal in the clause is to gjve a vote to every person of the age of .eighteen years. S'eetion 9 at the Elections Act deals with the qualifications of persons entitled to votfl, and Bays-

" Suhject to the disqualifications herein­after set out, all persons not under twenty-one years of age, whether male or female, married or unmarried--"

who h.as resided for >1 certain period in

Elections Act [l OcTOBER.] Amendment Bill. 10b3

Queensland, and who is a natural-born or naturalised subject of the King-

" shall bC' qualifiod as an elector under this Act."

Th<> amendment proposes to omit the wo1xls " twenty-one," and insert in lieu thereof the word " eighteen." In the face of that, how can the hon. membe·r say that the intention of the amendment is not to give a vote to young people of eighteen years of age? It may be 8aid that in some c!tses persons of that ago who are, enrolled Will not have an opportunity of voting until they are twenty­one years of age, but I would remind hon. membc•rs that there are four or five by­elections which are likely to come on ve·ry soon, and in any case the general elec­tions will come on in less than two years. I suppo,e the idea is to give boys and girls of the age of r·ighteen years a vote at those Plections. Underlying the whole pro­posal i.< the idea that a young person of twenty-one years of age-and I do not wish to say anything derogatory of those young people-will be more susceptible to the in­fluencP of sentinwnt and impube than persons of older ;-ears. I think one has onlv to read the report of the Auditor-Geneni:I, which came into our hands to-day, to realise that we have too much of the feeling of altruism in Queensland, and that we· should do wrong in bringing more sentiment and impulse into public life, as it is likely to lead us to national bankruptcy. We know that the management of big businesses-and what busine's is larger or more important than the business of the State-is not given to young people. During the debate we have had mentioned instances of infant prodigies to show that some young people are bette·r e·ducatcd than men of mor·e mature years; but, in considering a matter of this kind, we have to take the average ability and edu­cation of the persons concerned. We know that when we get older we get more knowledge and read more. \V e also know that young persons of the age of eighteen years arc mort' lik0lv to be lPd awav bv those socialistic i·dPals which are dangled ·b,•fore them than are peoph"' of 1nore rnature years, because as people become older they know that many of the- things proposed are impracticable. As a person gets older his reading shows him that where experiments have been tried in socialism the'· have resulted in failure and disappointmei'1t. Howe·ver, I do not propose to continu<' the discussion further on that point. There are one or two poinh which, it appears to me, have been missed during the debate. One is that at the pre·sent time under our liquor law no person under the age of twenty-one years can be served with grog. But when once such a person becomes an elector, you surely cannot refuse to allow him to be served with liquor. This means that th~ Liquor Act, as well as many other Acts, will have to be amended. The-re is anothE>r phase of the question which appears to have been overlooked, and that is, that the Government propose to make the· par­liamentary franchise the municipal franchise, iio that, if this amendment is carried, the young people will have the righl; to take part in the c·lection of aldermen and shire councillors. With all due respect to the young people, I ask, how can we expect them to be unbiassed in their votes when there are dangled before them proposals for free picture shows, free theatres, and so .on, all at the expense of the thrifty people who

own their own allotments? We· should look at this matter in a level-headed and fair manner. Young people are more prone to pleasure and more regardless of consequences, and not so apt to peer into the future and consider what their action may mean as are persons of more mature years. Is it fair, then, to place· such an important power in the hands of young people as giving. th(~ securitv of the whole of the property m a municipality or shire for the purpose of securing a loan to advance any of the pro­jects I have indicated? With re·gard to the personal abuse which has been levelled at members on this side of the House, I !!la)' sa' that there are membe-rs on the other side who are incapable of making a speech with­out 1naking lJE'rsonal reflections upon mem­bers of the Opposition. I think good reasons have been given by membe·rs on this side of the House why the amendment should not be adopted, an'd I hope the Government 'will withdraw the proposal. It l1as been argued that young people are better educated now than thev were in the past, but I would remind hon." members that the questions we have to deal with are far more complex than -'the questions we had to deal with some years ago. At any rate, .-iewing the whole of the· discussion, I think the arguments are in favour of having men of greater experi­ence in public affairs. I have even heard it suggested that there should be some qualifying examination passed before a person is given the right to vote. If hon. nwmbers opposite are sincere in this pro­posal, then they should go further and give to parents and guardians of young peopl( under eighteen years of age the right to votec on behalf of those young people.

Ho!i'. J. LAROOMBE : I should like t< say a few words on this clause. Ther~ has been a dPliberate attempt to misconstrue and

distort the real purpose and [7.30 p.m.] object of the proposed amend-

ment. Hon. memb~rs opposite can see the black hand of unfairness and di~honesty in every proposal submitted wit.hin the four corners of this Bill.

~Ir. SWAYXE: \Yhere does dishonesty com,, jn ,,

HoN. J. LARCOMBE: The suggestion of dishonesty comes in when hon. membe·rs oppo­site say we have introduced this clause in order to secure political support. There i~ no dishonesty whate.-er. The Labour Go­vernment stand on the bedrock of sound electoral ethics, and say that there are certain outstanding principles which justify thic amendment. I would like to emphasise them without unnecessarily arguing them. In the first place, the Defence Act of Australia compeis all young men of eigh­t€'en years of age to ddend their country. A young man places everything he h~s at the disposal of his country. If that IS se, can we logically argue that he is not entitled to the full rights of citizqnship? That is the broad basis on which we are putting forward this proposal. The hon. member for Murilla. who says he is not prepared to give the young white men and women a vote at eighteen, yesterday said that he was P::E-­pared to give the aboriginal a vote at slx­t<'en years of age.

The CHAIRMAN : Order ! Order ! HoN. J. LARCOMBE: The amendmeni

oubmitted bv the hon. memb.;r for lVIurilla contained a proYiso which would have enabled

Hon . .T. Larcombe.]

1084 Elections Act [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

an aboriginal, if h~ fought for his country, to have a vote at s1xteen years of age.

Mr. MoRGAK: That is ab<solutely wrong. HoN .. J. LARCOMBE : The hon. member

apologises. Mr. MORGA:-1: I do not intend to apolo­

gisE;. HoN. J. LARCOMBE: Can the hon.

n,ember deny the force of my argument? I <Jan read the amendment to him. It includes the right of an aboriginal sixteen years of age to vote1 yet the h?n. mt;:mber is refusing the same nght to wh1te men and women at eighteen years of age. .Where is the con­sistency in such an argument?

Mr. MoRGAN: It is an absolute distortion. Ho:-~. J. LARCOMBE: It is not a distor­

tion. ThQ amendment is there, and the hon. member lmwNs that he wished to confer on the aboriginals of Queensland who fotwht for t)wir country full rights of voting i;;_·e­spechve of age. The hon. member will no't concede the €ame right to .,,hitc; men and women.

Mr. nTOR~A':s: 'rhat is a distorte·d state­ment--an absolntP mi~.,<tat"ment. (G,?vern­I!l('nt i11terruption.)

The CIIAIR:\IAK: Order! I point out that the amendment of the hon. member for Murilla has been dealt with. -

Hox .. L L.ARCO::\iBE: The hon. member f'?r Murilla says I am ming an unfair and Lhshonest argument.

::Vir. ELPHI!\STO!\E: Accept the ruling. The CHAIR:\ lA:\" : Order l Order : I~oN. J. LARCOMBE : I bow to your

rulmg, but the amendment contains the in­formation and the fact that I referred to. The bon. member for ::\-Iurilla wants to deprive white men and women of Queensland of a right which lw would concede to the aboriginals.

Mr. MoRGA!\: It is absolutely false. HoN. J. LARCOJ\IBE: 'rhe broad basis of

our amendment is that men of eighteen years of age have to fight for their countrv in time of war, and are thereforE; entitled to the fullest rights of citizenship. When the con­,;cription proclamation came out, it empow­ered, if carried. the Government to take men between the ages of eighteen and sixty-it compelled the men of Australia of those ages to shoulder the responsibility. For­tc.nately for Australia, conscription was not carried, bnt if it had been carried hon. mem­bers opro•ite who support th{) conscription of men m Queensland between eighteen and s1xty would have been conscripted for oversea :;e~vicc. If that is so, they havt;: a right to enJoy tlw electoral advantages of th'e State and th<' nation.

:\1r. SrzER: But the people would not give that pOWPr.

HoN. J. LARCO:;~i:lBE: Hon. members oppos_ite would have given it, and thl;)y are SG unJust as to refuse to those men the rights of citizenship. This proposal does not as hon. members opposite contend, confer' on .' cung meJ?- and women of eighteen yl;)ars of age the nght to order the de3tinies of the State. 1 pointPd out that tlwrP would onlv b,• 10 1'cr c<>nt.. if tlw new roll io frame(l on tlw ha>is of the propos,•d amendment. between the ages of eighteen and twenty-one ; and, therefore, vou have a harmonious blend­ing. You have '10 per cent. between eighteen and tw.;nty-one years of age, and 90 per cent. ~-t other ages; there is the necessary power

[Hon. J. Larcombe.

to bring about ( nergy and <Jtability in go'\ el'lnnent. You have the energ·v of the young and the wisdom of the old-a har­n onions, satisfactory, and beautiful blend­ing. which is justified by every sound con­cc·ption of electoral ethics and citizenship. Again I want to emphasise the important point that the "Brisbane Courier," the lead­ing Tory organ of this city, supported thi$ proposal.

.\n OPPOSITION MEMBER : vVe do not go by the " Couri(!r. ~'

HoN .• J. LARCOMBE: It was referred to last night. and is contained in "Hansard." Hon. members opposite have spent nearly a whole day in denouncing a proposal ·which "·aB advocated last vear bv the "Brisbane Courier,'· which hon. members opposit() take their main views from. (Opposition dis­S(·nt.) \Ve know quite well that they bor­rr,wed their policy from the "Courier," and thHc can be nothing unsafe, dangerous, or nvolutionRry about a proposal which comes fro111 th0 ·· Bri>hanp Coul'it>r," because it iR ncarlv alwavs about 300 vears behind the time< yet 'it supports such a sound argu­lnent as this. and says that, if a man is mature enough to fight for his countrv, he is D'ature enough to vot(' for it. That expresS(l_S nll that hon. mpmbers on this side are con tending for.

Mr. VOWLES: That is exactly what "e say. Ho!>. ,J. LARCOMBE : The party respon-.

sible for the introduction of this principle is the party opposite. In the FQderal sphere t!Ky introduced, through their representa-· tives, this principle, and now they object to it here as a Labour proposal. It was intro­duced in the Federal spherQ on the basis that it was a reward for services rendered. The franchise' must be considered as a re­\>ard for services rend~red. Bravery cannot be considered as the basis or foundation of eiectoral franchise or citizenship. If we go back in history we find that many of the bravest men w~re the most fiendish and bloodthirsty, and least capable of exercising the franchise. We find, also, that Cicero was mentally qualified, but he was not a brave man. In certain stages of his career he showed cowardice, but he was politically gifted and a great statesman. Yet hon. members opposite would have doprivoo Cicero of a vote because he showed timidity at certain stages of his career. Courag~ and bravery are matters of dqgree and kind. There is braYery and courage shown in everY­day life by men and women in Que~nsland and Australia. which, to my mind, is greater tLan the heroism shown upon the battlefield.

GOVERN:\!E!\T MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Ho;,;. J. LARCOMBE: I;, the poems of

Henry Lawson, he describes the sufferings and bravery shown by th., men and women o11tback, which occur day after day, without the stimulus or excitement of war. These men and women show a bravery and couragp which entitle them to the franchise equally with the men who hav(l gone to the war. I do not say this to secure political kudos, as I would not for a moment reflect on those who m~nt to the front. I have the highest a'dmiration for them, but I am certain they themselves would not say that bravery should b.; the basis of the franchise. The Duke of Wellington was a very brave man, but he was not noted for his political sagacity or parliamentary talent.

Mr. ELPHINSTONE: \\'hat about Bill Adams? (LaughtL'r.)

Eiections Act [l OcToBER.] Amendment Bill. 1085

Hox. J. LARC0::\1BE: The less the hon. member says about failures the better for himself.

JVIr. ELPHIXSTONE: Don't study me; you oan say what you like.

Ho!>!. J. LARCO.i'dBE: I do not intend to deseencl to peroonalitie,. I contend that the party opposite are responsible, in th<> fi'rst place, for this amendment, and they cannot justify their attitude in opposing it from the viewpoint of bravery at a.ll, be­cause the heroism shown in private life would justify many a young fellow of eighteen being granted the franchise equally with those who donnecl the uniform. If bravery is to be the main consideration, then you will have to set up a board to travel all over Queensland to ascertain who arc> brave enough to have the vote; and you will not confine vour operations to those who have perforn!ed military service. \V e know that the medal of the Roval Humane Soci<>ty has be<>n given to many young fellows under the age of twenty-one years. Are you gom.g to give them the vote because of the1r braverv? It is a. well known fact that some of the "most heroic things done in the history of Queensland have been done by men ·who have never had any military service.

Mr. MORGAX: \Vhy are you stonewalling vour own Bill ? • Hox. J. LARCOMBE: I am not stone­walling the Bill. I have sat here for a da v listening to the per,istent distortion of· facts, and misrepresentation of hon. members opposite; and I am not going to allow them to continue their distortion and mi'"representation without replying to them. (Hear, hear!) In conclusion, le.t n;e emphasise that the age of matunty m QuePnsland a.nd Australia is very low, while the intelligence of the young people of the country is very high. Our fine system. of education leads our young people to cons1der the political questions that are agitating the public mind, and qualifies them to give a sound judgm<'nt and to cast a vote frequently more satisfactorily than that given by older people. It is we:l known that the young men and voung women of to-day are taking a much more artivo and serious interest in politics than was the case fifteen years ago. John Stuart Mill pointed out many ye·ars ago. tlw way to confer responsibility is to give people the vote. He used the argument in connection with woman suffrage. and the opponents of woman suffrage in those days used the same arguments as hon. members opposite use now. They said that women were too frivolous and too irresponsible, and that they did not want the vote; but we know that since the franchise has been con­ceded to women there l1as been a higher standard of progress and prosperity tha.n ever before. The Labo11r party owe thCir position to~day to the intelligent votes of the women.

GOVERN>!ENT ME'l!BERS: Hear, hear! Mr. SIZER. Urundah): The ::Ylinister has

accused hon. members on this side of mis­representation. but I am inclined to think that his speech has been a splendid example of misrepre"entation. He has attributed to the hen. member for Murilla a desire to give the franchise to aboriginals when he would deny it to white men and women. The hon. gentleman knows that that is a .(leliberate misstatement.

The CHAIRMAN: Order ! Order !

:Mr. SIZER: The amendment of the hon. memb<:'r for ::\Iurilla proposed that only those <'cloured people who joined the Australian Imperial Forces should. be given. the fran­chis<', and. if any white man ]Omed the Australian Imperial Forces at the age of eighteen, he \Yas to be giYen the same privilPge. H was never proposed by the hon. member's amendment to give the fran­chise to <'oloured aliens and not to peoplE> of our own race. Let me quote from the "Dailv Standard" of to-dav to show that the Minister misrepresented the effect of the amendment of the hon. member for Murilla. The ''Daily Standard" sa:s-

'· lVIr. ::VIorgan moved an amendment providing for the extension of the fran­chise to coloured people who had served in the Australian Imp<>rial Forces, and all males and females between the ages of ei.,.htee'n and twenty-one years. Per­haps" there is no genuine objection to aborigines having a vote-this is their country, and they're entitled to a say in its government."

I admit that it makes this proviso-" But to e:X:tend the franchise to

Chinese, Hindoos, Japs, or other aliens "·ho may have served with the Austr!L­lian Imperial Forces opens up a b1g question.''

\Vith that proviso I quite agree, but the quotation, as a whole, give;; the lie ab~olutely direct to the Minister's attempt to misrepre­sent this si-de of the Chamber.

::\Ir. ::\1oRGA;;;: His own paper convicts him.

::VIr. SIZER: The whole tenor of the hon. gentleman's speech was that, as we wero prepared to give a vote to every young man of eighteen who went to the front, that was a justification for the introduction of this proposal. Yd the hon. gentleman, in his la>t speech, said tha.t tht> mNe fact of a voung man going to the war when he was eighteen vears of age did not entitle him to ail the rights and privileges of citizenship. The hon. gentleman's speech destroyed the very a.rgument which he endeavoured to pro­pound this evening. It cut the whole ground from under his own feet. I admit that military sen·ice should not be the sole ground upon whieh the franchise should be granted; but the hon. gentleman made that excuse for introducing this propo,al. He sav that the Government have followed the load of the Federal Government. but he has given not one genuine reason for introducing this proposa-l.

Hon. J. LARCQ)JBE: What about tho Defence Act?

:Mr. SIZER : The hon. member for Fitzroy referred to the fact that males between the ag<'o of fourteen and twcJnty-one had to do militarv training but they have no voice in the go-vernment of the country. I admit that. But the hon. member evidently inferred that, because they had to undergo military training, they were entitled to a vote. If that be so, why does the hon. member stop at eighteen years of age? \Vhy does he not go the whole way and say that every boy of fourteen should have a vote because he is liable to military training?

Hon. J. LARCO~IBE: Because they are not called upon to defend their country at the age of fourteen years.

Mr. Sizer.]

1086 Elections Act [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

Mr. SIZER: If a man's house- was nu fire, would he refrain from calling in the assistance of his familv? Of course he would not. Let me now refer to another misrepre­.<entation of the hon. gentleman. He said that young people between the ages of eighteen and twenty-one years would only represent 10 per cent. of the number of •Jlectors on the roll, and, not being a majority, they could not do anything. But suppose thE' fate of the Government depended upon a majority of only 2 per cent. or 3 per cent. of the number of electors on the roll, then the 10 per cent. represented by the young people would be able to keep the Governnmnt in power or to turn them out of office. 'Gnder such circumstances, it is quite absurd to say that their votes would have no Bffect. I would like to reply to the argu­ments of the hon. member for Ipswich when he referred to the fact that the boys and "l'irls of to-day will be the men and women of to-morrow, and it is for those we are legislating. That is quite so, but it is no argument. Go back further. Could you not go back to the age of ten and twelve and say they will be the men and women of to­morrow and should be entitled to a vote. Jf you used that argument you could almost go back to the time a person is born. The argument is certainly an absurd one. Then, a further argument was used by the hon. member for Ipswich. I sympathise with him and with the Government when they are forced to make apologies. He made the rather lame apology that, after all this did not entail their voting at the age of eighteen, it only meant that they were <mrolled at that age. That is almost crying to the people to excuse them for their action and saying " the dangPr may not be so great." Is it not a fact that if a person became enrolled at the age of eighteen and an election took place the next week, he Would have to vote? Why attempt to camouflage it in that way? It is pure·ly and simply an apologetic argument for the most weak case one could possibly have. One of the strongest arguments against this proposal has been used by the hon. member for Lockyer. I give him cre·dit for his honesty in daring to express his opinion. Those opinions, I admit, are a slander on the people of Queensland, when he said that 75 per cent. of the people of Queensland di·d not know what they were voting about. I happened to interject at the time "That is a slander on the people," and the hon. gentleman confirmed it by say­ing " It is true." If we now have such a pBrcentage as 75 per cent. who do not under­stand what they are yoting about, and we intend to lower the age to eighteen, I think anyone\ without the slightest stretch of imagination, cm judge what the result would be. I would like to <·arry that a little further and say we on this side of the House have a far better opinion of the intelligence of the people of Queensland.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Than they have of you.

Mr. SIZER: That may be so. There are always little things that happen at election time which one cannot explain. That is why we are here to-day. The fact remains, we ha.-e sufficient confidence in the people of Queensland, despite the hon. gentleman's slander, that the next time they get the opportunity they will tell the hon. member for Lockycr and the Government that they do understand what they are voting for, and

[Mr. Sizer.

this side of the House will be on that side. As the Government have stonewalled their measure, I quite realise they are not anxious to push on with business. In all probability they are trying to hang the measure out until the Premier comes back, and charge the Opposition with stonewalling. .\t any rate, I think hon. gentlemen on that side of the House have failed to put forward one sound argument in support of this proposal. I think if we knew their inmost minds not one ·of them would have introduced this measure had it been left to their own initia­tive. It has been forced on them by the junta outside. (Ironical Government laughter.) That is the only thing which explains their attitude. I am quite convinced that that is a. true summing up of the reason for the introduction of this particular measure. I intend to vote against this clause.

Mr. ELPHI~STONE: When the prede­cessor of the present Minister introduced this Bill originally he made a kind of apologetic utterance which ,hawed that though enrol­ment. was going to date from eighteen years of age they probably would not be called upon to exercise the franchise until they werp older. Following that line of argument, the hon. member for Ipswich has tl],\l:en up the same attitude. Listening to the recent speech b1: the Minister now in charge of this Bill, one can see that the argument he is depending on to bolster up his case is not at all a sound one, and it makes one doubt whether the Government feel at all happy in this proposal to reduce the age from twent-1·-one to eighteen. The Minister b].l.ilds his case round the statement that because a man has shouldered arms-as one might say -at eighteen years of age, he should of necessity be given a vote in the condl\Ct of the affairs of the countrv. He has tried to bring us into that argument by saying we endeavoured to obtain the vote for a man who was fighting for his country, although he be only eighteen years of age. He has also referred to a passage from a statem'ent in the " Courier" some time previously where something of a similar nature was made use of. There is a verv big difference between hi·· arg-ument and ours. Our .argument is that when a man has fought for his country, when he has gone abroad, ·when he has seen the world, when he has gone through suffering and endurance, that very process has broadened his mind and made him older than his actual years. Therefore, he is a fit and proper subject to be trusted with a vote earlier than his actual age of twenty-one. That is the argument which I think the " Courier" made use of, and which the hon. membm· has misquoted. Because certain men, by going through ordeals, have quali­fied themselves for a vote, that is no argu­ment at all why those who have not gone through the necessary experience to qualify them should have the same privilege.

Hon. J. LAROOMBE: What about the Defence Act?

Mr. ELPHI~STONE : I will come to the Defence Act in a minute. In listening to the remarks of the hon. member for Ipswich, it was rather amusing to h<·ar him trying to bolster up their case bv saying that, although a boy or a girl was 'ymt on the roll at the <lge 'of eighteen, they would probably be twenty-one years of age before they would exercise the vote. That may apply to a per­son who enters on the roll the day after an election. But what about tho"e who are put on the rolls immediately on their attaining

Election" Act [1 OCTOBER.) Ame,;dment Bill. 1087

Hight''<'ll vears of age a few da?S before the election 1 It is obvious there must be thou­sands of boy~ and girls at eighteen years of agD, once this becomes law, if it ever does who will be called upon to exercise that vote>: There is no gainfiayjng that. To use an argu­ment such as that is, of course, futile. Let us understand this. \Ye all appreciate that the boys of to-day are to be the men of to­morrow. Everyone of us in C1is House will und<>rstand and appreciate that. On the way we treat the boy of to-day will depend the manhood of to-morrow. There is no getting !1-Way from that. ::viy argument is that, msteo;d of thrusting upon tlwm responsibili­ties for which thev are not lookinrr and which their experier1ce does not cntitl~' them to enjoy, we should see that they spend their younger da,·s in educating themselves and equipping themselvee for the battle of life. We _believe in kee]Jing a ~1oy as young as possible for as long as possible. I am quite <..ertain, if we can trace back our own fe~lings in the matter, we will appreciate this-that our young days were the brst days of our lives, because we did not have responsibilities thrust upon us. It is when we get responsi­bilitic' that grey hairs step in. I believe in letting the young fellow and the young girl enjoy themselves while they are young, be­cau"e, when all is said and <lone, the time at their disposal is very short. and instead of thrusting responsibilities upon the~1 before they are fit to take them on, they should be allowed to enjoy their ,:outh as long as pos­sible. One argument which I have not heard the Minister deal with in his reply to the criticism of this Bill is the effect it is going to have upon the Uommonwe<llth roll. \Ve have seen bv the Labour ~onference which took place in Sydney recently that a plank was introduced into their platform which made it obligatory, as soon a' possible, to bring State and Fed<>ral rolls into linP. The Minister i~ going exaetly contrary to that direction when he is introducing <l measure to make these rolls le<s anwnable to on<> another than they are at the present moment. It seems to me thet whatever comparison one> could draw between the two rolls at the present moment is going to be entirely killed by putting on the rolls ~ome thousands of bovs and g·irls ·who are under twenty·one

· years of age. I think that his [8 p.m.J time would be very much better

spent in an endee vour to bring the two rolls into line, which woul·d help to purify them and assist in the conduct of both State' and Federal elections. I do not want to refDr in detail to a later amen<lm ent under the Minister's own direction, but it h. obvious what the intention is going to he under this particular clause when we see that in clause 8 the Minister pronoses to alnend linBs ~7 and 49 ~o {]~ to bring sehoolbo: ,, and students into it. 'That exactly exemplifies onr point that the Gm-ernmcnt are really making pro­visions for bringing studenh and schoolbov'· under the Electoral Ad. Our contention 'is ~hat their time would bo hE>tter spent in equipping them~clves for after life than in endeavouring to unravel the problems put br,fore this House.

Ilon. members opposite ha;·e drawn atten­tion onee more to tho freaks-if I may use th,, sonwwhat unkind dc,.cription-·and pro­digi.Ps of which we have had Pxamples in our history. "' e see childrPn of five, six, and seven who are wonderful pianists, who have most extraordinary devBlopme>nts in certain

directions. but if you are going to base your argument. on prodigies of that description there is going to be no end to it. 'l'he privilege proposed to be confBrred by thiS clause is not only for those pereons who have giwn proof of extraordinary inh,lligence; it is for the masses. I repeat that if any member wants anv evidence of the average responsibilitY of boy" and girls of eighteen, Jet him go "about the streets with his eyes op-en. Please let it be understood that I have the greo1test a<lmiration for youth just as I have the highest respect for old age, but I do not believe in giving responsibility to ,·outh before it is prepared to take it. Following out that argument, th<cre are seventv-two members here who can be taken as bei{1g averag,- sample~ of ma.nhood .. Are there any evidences of any particular development at eighteen which would cause us to be referred to as having been prodigies? I ·do not think so. We can be taken as the ordinarv samples of intelli­g<'nce; so far as I have heard or seen I do not know anvone who would be roferred to in after life "as a prodigy, as an argument for trusting u' with a. vote at eighteen.

The hon. member in charge of the Bill has repeatedly r<>ferred to the question of c'?n-6cription. As one who was connected With recruiting, I can say that the whole int.ention of conscription and the whole intent10n of recruiting was to keep every young man out of the firing line until he got as nearly as possible to twenty-one years of age.

Hon. J. LARCG:l1BE: That was not in the proclamation.

Mr. ELPHINSTONE : There was no intention to put any boy into thB firing line before he was twenty-one. And, let me say again, that if every member of the House had done his duty in that time of crisis there wou1d have been no need to enlist bovs of eighteen. (Government inter­j cctions. )" I knew that would raise a fuss, but I intended to repeat it.

Mr. CARTER: A peace soldier! Mr. ELPHINSTO='JE: The s.cction of the

Defence Act to which the Minister has r<'ferred is in my judgment a provision to determine the age when a youth should start to train to be a soldier.

Hon. J. LARCO:l!IBE: No. You are quite wrong.

Mr. ELPIIINS'I'ONE: A boy joins the citizen forces when be is eighteen year:, of agE'. The intention i,,, not to make him fight for his country or defend his country . at eighteen. He must have some age at which to start to qualify and that age has been fixed at eighteen. From that ag,e to twenty­one hD can qualifv to be a soldier, so that from twentv-one upwards he will be fully qualifie>d to" fight for his country. He must start somewhere, and what better time than eighteen, befm·<' he settles down to )lis pro­fession or calling? That is the view the Defence Department had, and I can say with some knowlc•dge of the subject that that w:as the idea of those in charge of the conscnp­tion campaign. We all know that it takes some time to make a soldier, and the intun­tion has been put into force as far as. possibl.e of keeping youths out of the firmg !me until thev reach manhood. \Ye contend that a vouth does not reach manhood for coldiering lll!rposcs until he is twenty-one years of agB any more than he does for the purpose of exercising the franchise.

Mr. Elphinstone.]

1088 Ele~tiom Act [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

That is the most important feature of thi~ Bill, although not th' only important one, and I want to take thr opportunity on<·e more of impressing on the ~Iinister tht' necessitv of taking advantage of the power that exists to call for the date of birth in enrolments. For some r<'ason that date of birth has been eliminated. with the result that the rolls cannot be kent as clear as they might be. I know th~1t ~·on might take exception to my introducing this matter now, but even in conneetion .. vvith :detern1ining tho voting ago at eighteen it is v<'ry important, because unlci'• there is some evidence of birth dearly and fully to detcrmin€ tho age of the applicant, there is no limit. You could go to sixteen, to fifteen, even to fourteen, and I cannot for the life of me see why the date of birth is not insi:·;tcd upon. The Minister does not require an anwnding Act. All that is needed is a regulation under the machinery which exists.

Mr. HARTLEY (Fit:·roy): Sonw queer arguments have been rai6ed by the Opposi. tion as to why this age of eighteen should not be introduced into the Elections Act, but the hon. member who has just spoken seems to have picked out one of the queerest­that is, he based the right to a vote at eighteen years, as far as the eighteen-year ladc overseas were concerned, on the fact that th<; voter had been through an ordeal of suffering and endurance. That is rather a queer basis on which to claim the fran­chise. It is queerer stili when it comes from the hon. member, who said that if members on this side had done th~ir duty the1·e would have been no need for con· scription-because that gentleman allowed the period of the r<'alisation of his duty to tarry so long that it was possible for him to a1Jpear in unifonn on only on0 occasjon, and that wa,, at the peaee celebration.

The CHAIRMAX : Order :

~fr. liARTLEY: It is just as "dl to r"' all that fact when we hear the hon. mr,mbf>J" talking in th(~ tna.nner h(_• has don0.

i\lr. ~IACARTXEY: lie i:-:. a Ularri{•-d lllUH with responsibiliti<"·:.

:Mr. IL\RTLEY: \Veil, there are men OY<·:· eighteen yearN of a.~e who arP not nuuTir~d to whom that argument can also he ap]died. Th<>re were also men who "ere 1i:arried a.nd had responsibilities who carried out the duty thE>-: thought they owN! to th~ country and to thE' flag. It was a mattE>r for each man's oonscicnC'e to reYie,Y his o'vn cireun1stancr..: before' he took any step in the mattPr. If you uru going to hasp a. claim for a vote to youths and girls of eighteen years of age on the argument that they must hav€ gonL' through a period of endurance and suff<'ring, then I would point out that during the pa 't four years they haY€' gone through a pNiod of endurance and suffE'ring in Qnr·cnsland­a pPriod of poverty and want of work, rendered morE' acute: bv the remors<>le:Js and relentless!~ 5elfish profite<:ring which hon. members opposite tiupport.

Nlr. J\fACAR'DiEY : YOU IWYC'r lost a. feed through the war, anyhow.

Mr. HARTLEY: I haw bePn in thr' fortunatu position of being able to get a ff.'Cd wh<'n I wanted it, but, unfortunatPiy, ma.ny workers between eightePn and twenty· <>ne years of age have not been in that

(Mr. Elphinstone.

position, and that is oue reason why they should have a vote, so as to assist in mou]d .. in" th<> ckstiniu3 of the country and pr<>vent suZh a thing n~curring. There is one thing that l \•:ish to correct, as far as the hon. member for Xundah and the hon. member for Oxlcv ar•J concerned. It would be to the ·advar1tag<' of both those hon. memberiJ if they studied th•' Commonwealth Defence Act and saw what are the ages for trammg a.nd tlw ages fm service. 'IVhen I mention~'{] to the hm1. member for Dalb.r that the ago of traiuing was fourteen year~J, it was merely to draw his att<•ntion to the fact that eighteen 'r ar,; is not the initial age for training. :Junior cadds start physical training a.t twelve years of age, and senior cadets start military training at fourteen year,; of age. Then, at eighteen years of a.ge the <;o~nmon­wealth authorities enforee the trammg of soldiers. and at that age they are liable to be called upon for service nnder the Ac;t, as citizen soldiers, and to he called out m time of war in Australia. In answer to the hon. member for Nundah, it would not be reasonable to assuwe that becanse of prepara­tol'Y military phy,ical training the vo~in_g age should be reduced to fourteen, but 1t !S logical to say that, when a lad enters. on h1s term of training as a soldier at e1ghteen years, he ehould have a vote. If a man is of sufficient maturity of judgment ancl physical development to be called upon for military s0rvice at that age, I hold that he is also suf!icicnth capable at that age to east a vote. to say 'whether he is in favour of laws of that nature being made. That IS all I wish to ,ay on this question, but I will certainly r<'COmmend the hon. nwmber for Oxlev and the hon. member for Nundah to stndv' th0 Defenc·e Act and see what its provisions r0ally are.

Mr. ~L\ YLOH: I should like to say a few words more on this particular amendment before it goes to a vote. \Ye have heen dis­cussing the matter a.II the afternoon, ar:d I do not think we have got very much enhghten· 1111'nt from the Government as to the reasons which have actuai.<'d them in bringing in this lllllemlnw::tt. Jf I understood Nw ~linis­ter correctly to-night. his main argument in favour of introducing this amendment was based on the fact that legislation in con· nection with tlw DdPnce Act ca.lls upon all yonng fellows of eighte~n years to. undNg_o training. I do not tlnnk the :Mm1ster IS

quite sincere in that argument. . I do not bPliev<' that is his reason for introducing tho a,mendmcnt. I do not profess to know what is his real reason, hut I do not think that is his real reason for introducing the amend· ment. It has- bu0n said during the com·so of the discussion that hon. members on thi' sido have been opposc•d to every atton;pt at clcctr>rai reform. All I can say w1tht regard to that is, that any man in this Uhambf'r "he has the slightest knowledge of the evolution which has taken pla.co with regard to electoral reform throughout .~us­tralia during the last twenty-five or thirty years, must know that the foremost democrat in Victoria. Alfred Deakin-he was the fore· most of democrats in Australia, and one of the kaders of the reform for giving votes to men at twentv·one years of age-never made any mch pr-;,posal as that contained in this Bill. I remember. too, that Dr. Beva.n, a Congregational minister in Melbourne, always maintained that a man, no matt• r

Electioru Act [l OcTOBER.] Amendment Bill. 1089

what he was-even if he was in the gutter­was worth more than a banking account and more than a building; and he always advo­cated electoral reform, and urged that the age at which a person should be given the franchise should be twenty-one lfars. I fail to see any necessity for this anHmdment. \Ve have had no request and no demand for it from the young people. It has been stated here to-night that because young peopl<' have to conform to certain laws they 1ihould be consulted in the. matter. If you ctre going to carry out that argument to its logical conclusion, then you must ask the sanction of children to their being kept at sc·hool till the age of fourteen years. \Ve have to fix the age limit for the €Xercise of the franchise, and it has been the custom in most ch-ilised countries of the world to fix that age at twenty-one year•. That is the furthest that most countries have gone; but in some ca·•es, at the prc·sent time, the age is fixed at twenty-five years. and there is also a property qualification in cbnnection with the franchise. Kow -the Government propose to depart from what has been proved to hE> a .afeguard, so far as legislation of this kind is concerned. vVe are indebted to th<' hon. member for Mirani for raising the point that no person under the age of twenty­one years is allowed to go into any liquor bar and be served with liquor. Here we have legislation introduced which propose·,. that the rights of citizenship shall be given to any young man or young woman of eighteen years of age. You will have to pull down the three years, and allow them to go to the liquor bar and get what liquor they want at that particular age, if you pass this clause. Does any father of a family. ur anv man who has the best interests of Queensland at heart, think it would be a good thing to allow young people at eighteen years of age to go into liquor bars without any restriction?

The CHAIRMAN : Order ! member is not in order.

The hon.

Mr. TAYLOR: I wish to keep within the clause, but the point was mentioned by the hon. member for Mirani. We are going to place r~sponsibilities upon young people of eighteen years of age, which thev would be better without for another thre-e years of their lives. The period of young life is all too short at the prE)sent tim·e. Quite a number of the arguments adduced as to why the vote should be extended to those e.1ghteen years of age are entirely irr(llevant. We have to consider the national welfare of this country, and we ought to be guided by past experiencE) as to what is the best for the future, and if we continue the pre­sent franchise it will be the best for the country. Statements have been madE) with regard to disproportion of numbers in many electorates, but this amendment will increase that disproportion, more particularly in the city electorates. It will, perhaps, add 1,500 or 2,000 voters to an electorate like Bulimba, but in the far Northern electoratE)s it may orly a-dd 100 or 200, and the disproportion will be greater in future than it is at the present time. There is no doubt that the Government intend that this am<Jndment must go through, but I think a great mistake is Leing made. There is no demand for this extension of the franchise. and it is not in the interests of Queensland nor of the young pE)ople whom it is proposed to enfranchise.

1919-3 X

Question-That clause 5, as read, stand part of the Bill-put; and the Committee divided:-

AYES, 30. Mr. Armfield

, Carter ,. Cooper, F. A. ,, Cooper, \V.

Dunstan , Fihelly , Foley , Fo•·de , Free

. Tames , Gilday , G!edson ,. Hardacre , Hartley

Mr. Larcombe , I.loyd , McCormack ,, McLachlan

Mullan , O'Sullivan , PaJne , Riordun , Ryan, D • , R 0an, H. J

Smith , Theodore , Wellington

Whitford ,. Winstanley ,. Huxham

Tellers: Mr. F. A. Cooper and Mr. G!edson.

Mr. Barnes, G. P. , Barnes, W. H. , Bayley , Bebbington

Bell ., Elphinstone ., Gunn ,, Macartney

NoEs, 16. Mr. Moore

,. Morgan , Petrie , Sizer

Swayne Taylor VowlP-a Warren

Tellers: Mr. Sizer and Mr. Warren. Resolved in the affirmative.

On clause 6-" Resident.~ outside Queens­land, n·hen to disqualify"-

Mr. VOWLES: I move the deletion after the word "has," on line 26, of the word " permanently." I think it would be better i: that word were left out altogether. It is open to a peculiar construction-to say if a man has " permanently" left. It is a ques­tJon as to wh~re his domicile is-as to what his int<mtion was when he went away. To my mind, it would defeat the objector re­ferred to in the latter portion of section 32 of the principal Act when he comes to lodge :>tn objection. Th.;t section says-

" An objection on the ground that a person ·does not live in a district for which he is enrolled shall be deemed not to be good unless it a!leges that the person objectE)cl to-

(a) Does not live in the district, and does not live in Queensland ; or

(b) Does not live in the district, and has obtained enrolment for some other district."

There seems to be a good deal embodie-d in this subclause. There is an intention to make the whole thing watertight. If you object to a certain class of workers who come to Queensland to take part in seasonal occupa­tions, you are bound to show, b~fore you object to their names being erased from the roll, that they have " permanently" left the district. That is almost an impossibility. If you can prove that a man has left a dis­trict and is out of Queen;;land, under section 32 of the principal Act, the electoral regis­trar is entitled to have that man's name erased from the roll. But the Minister now proposes to make it not six months, but twelve m·onths. How are you going to clean your roll? Not only the seasonal worker, but the casual shearer who comes into the \V est ern districts from New South Wales, wili probably be on the New South Wales roll as well as the Queensland rolL We have no hope in the world of every gP,tting him off the roll once he gets his name on.

Mr. SMITH: That is your trouble.

Mr. Vowles.]

1090 Elections Act [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

Mr. VOWLES: That is not our trouble. Our trouble is that the roll should be an honest roll, that facilities should be given for those who are entitlod to be enrolle·d to get their names on the roll, and that equal facilities should be provided to strike off those who are not entitled to be on the roll­that is what I am after; but the intention is to make it impossible to get a man's name off, once it is put on the roll. I can under­stand the hon. member for Mackay being incensed at my remarks, because there is a considerable nqmber of seasonal workers in his electorate.

Mr. SmTH : And very good men, too.

Mr. VOWLES: Many of them come from the Southern States, and their domicile is not in Queensland. If we leave the wor<l " permanently" in, they can claim that their home is in this S'tate. I want to see the roils

clean, and not as they were at [8.30 p.m.] the last election, vfue·n there were

several thousand more names on the electoral rolls than there were adults in Queensland. We know the unholy sights that were to be seen in Sydney on our last election day, when large numbers of men claimed the right to vote for electorates in Norbern Queensland, and no one was in a position to decide whether they were genuine voters or whether they wem impersonators. We want to have the opportunity of allowing those entitled to be on the roll to vote, and of preventing the dummy or the man who has no right to be on the roll from voting.

Mr. HARTLEY: You could not have decided whether those men were entitled to vote i£ they had voted in Queensland.

Mr. VOWLES: We would have• had an opportunity of appointing some person who would have been able to block impersona­tion-someone who knew them. How many cases of impersonation there were at the last elections we do not know. As soon as the elections were over, and complaints were made of all sorts of breaches of the Act, the whole thing was stifled by letters sent round to all the returning oflicB·rs telling them not to worry about the matter. They were told not to worry about offences requiring prose­cution under the Act. If the word " per­manently" is struck out, we also intend to object to increasing the period from six months to twelve months. Of course, we know that it is hopeh·'s to expect to succeed in our desires. All we can do is to place our protest on record in the hope that justice will prevail in " another place," and that the Government will be compelled to do the correct thing. We have to look to another Chamber to secure honest dealing for us. If loopholes are going to be provided whereby imper·"onation may take place, and if we are going to have thousands more electors on t'.e roll than there are adults in the State, then it is very easy for the party opposite to remain in possession, of the Treasury benches. The machinery clause enables an obje-ctor to object to names on the roll on two grounds. One is that the person objected to has left Ql!eensland, and the other is that he has removed to another electorate for which he· is enrolled. We on this side have complained ever since the present Act was placed on the statute-book that it is not a fair Act, and that it was specially designed to defeat justice; and the amendments which are being brought

[Mr. Vowles.

furwar.d now ar-e dosigned to make the whole thing watertight, and to make it impossible to clarify tho rolls. It is being done with the deliborate intention of keeping the pre­se·nt Government on the Treasury benches. If there is any honour in the party opposite, they will not force these unjust amendments through. If there is to be a fair election, and the party returned to power is to be returned bv a fair vote of the majority of the electors, then these amendments will not be insisted upon; but. as the position stands, we cannot hope for that.

Hox. J. LARCOMBE: I do not intend to accept the amendment-- .

Mr. VowLES: I did not suppose you would.

HoN. J. LARCOMBE: Because the ques­tion o£ permanency will probably be deter­mined by a person's enrolment in anothel' State.

Mr. MORGAX: How will you know that he is enrolled in another S'tate?

HoN. J. LARCOMBE: You have the rolls o'f the other States at your disposal.

Mr. M ORGAN : That is a silly argument.

HoN. J. LARCOMBE: It may be silly from the point of view of the hen. mmnber, who expect~ every amendment that he moves or supports to be accented. There is no necessity for the amendment, hBcause the question of permanency will be decided generally by the <'lector's enrolment in .another State.

:i1r. M oRGAN: How can we discover that?

l-IoN. J. LARCOMBE: By an examination of the rolls in the other States.

Mr. MoRGAN: Have you instructed your electoral registrars to inspect the rolls of the other States?

HoN. J. LARCOMBE: Without this pro­tection there would be a serious risk of an elector beinP" struck off the roll if he left the electorate.

Mr. M ORGAN : You were out of the State for six months yourself.

HoN. J. LARCOMBE: Take the case of the Prime Minister of Australia, who was absent from Australia for about nine months. According to this amendment he wouJd be liable to be struck off the Federal roll. although he was attending to the· interests of Australia in the old country.

Mr BEBBINGTON : Where does he make his home.? Does not the Act provide that his name cannot be struck off if he intends to come back?

The CHAIRMAN : Order ! Order !

HoN. J. L.\RCOMBE: If a similar pro­vision found a place in the Commonwealth Act, if the word " permanently" were omitted the Prime Minister could have been struck ~ff the roll.

Mr. ELPHINSTONE: What odds?

HoN. .J. LARCOMBE : Does the hon. member for Oxley grasp the meaning of the amendment?

::\fr. ELPHINSTONE : I do.

HoN. J. LARCOMBE: Then the hen. member considers it would be quite proper to strike the Prime Minister off the Fe<leral

Elections Act [l OcTOBER.] Amendment Bill. 109!

roll, although he was away on Australian business?

Mr. ELPHINSTONE : He could be re-enrolled when he came back.

Ho". J. LARCO::YIBE: But he would have lost his qualification to be Prime ::Yfinister of Australia.

Mr. MoRGA]'(: He got leave of absence before he went away.

HoN. J. LARCOMB:E:: Once he lost his qualification as an elector, he would lose his qualification to hold the position which he secured as an elector.

Mr. MORGAN: Not at all.

HoN. J. LARCOMBE: Absolutely. A man can only sit in Parliament if he is an elector or if he is qualified to be an elector.

Mr. VOWLES: He would be qualifi<>d to be an elector.

HoN. J. LARCOMBE: He would not be qualified to be an elector if he were struck off the roll on the ground of absence from the State.

Mr. VoWLES: If he were abs<mt on busi­nese, he would not be struck off the roll.

HoN. J. LARCOMBE: According to the hon. member for Oxley, the Prime Minister could be struck off the roll while he was away in England attending to Common­wealth business. In the same wav the Pr·e­mier of l:;lueensland could have &:en struck off the roll during his trin to the old country in the interests of this State.

Mr. ELPHINSTONE : \Vhat odds? I would have no objection. (Laughter.)

HoN. J. LARCO::y[BE: That strengthens my argument. That seems to be the cal­culated object of this amendment. The hon. member for Oxley admits the truth of my argument that the amendment of the hon. member for Dalby would enable the Premi<>r of the State to be struck off the roll while he was away in England on State business. Could any more absurd and ridiculous amendment be submitted to this Committee.

Mr. ELPHINSTONE: \Vhat about the other si·de of it?

Ho:.;. J. LARCOMBE: I will let well alone. I think the interiection is sufficient to show the absurdity and the dangerous nature of the amendment. I do not think any argument is needed from me to buttress the interjection of the hon. member for Oxley against the proposed amendment.

Mr. MACAR'I'NEY: The argument of the Minister is based on what the meaning of the word " left" would be. If the word " left" means a mere going to Sydney or the old countrv on a. matt·er of business or for a holiday, 'perhaps the contention of the hon. member might be justified; but if the meaning of that word is that the man had left the State with the intention of leaving the State permanently, the position is entirely different. The use .of the word " per­manently" may have a tendency to make the mattPr ·clearer, but if it leads to other some­what extraordinary results, we have to look for another way of amending it. It is a per­fect absurdity to suggest that the Prime ;yrinister of Australia or the Premier of Que('nsland would be struck gff the rolls by an oflioer who was aware that they were away on the country'.s business. Has official­dom in Queensland come to such an absurd

condition as would nermit of a resnonsible officer doing a thing -of that kind? -

Hon. J. LARCOMBE: That would be the effect of it.

~vir. MACARTNEY: The hon. gentleman must know perfectly well that the Electoral Registrar is s,npposed to ha,, e a certain amount of common sense. The inclusion of this word " permanently" leads to another result. It shows to what extent the party in power are pr·epared to go in order to main­tain office. They are prepared to allow people who have permant'ntly left Queens­laud-that is to say, left Quec)nsland without the intention of returning-to vote for an Plection in Queensland, not only for six month;; after they had permanently left the State, but for. a period of twelve months. They are prepared to hand over the destinies of Queensland to men whose interests are in another State, and who are residing in another State.

The ACTING PREMIER: That is a gross exaggeration.

Mr. MACARTNEY: It is nothing of the sort. 'rhe hon. gentleman knows that elec­tions may be so close that there is only one member separating the predominant party and the minority, and even one vote may produce that one member. The hon. gentle­ma.n knows that. How often in the history of Queensland have elections been won by three or four votes?

The ACTING PRE3IIER: That is not likely to occur again.

Mr. MACARTNEY: It is quite a common occurrence in Queensland. Hon. gentlemen on the other side have no sense whatever of r'"'ponsibility, but they have a gr·eat amount of sense when it comes to a matter of self. ·when it becomes a matter of party pre­dominance, apparently they ar·e prepared to go to any length.

1'he AcTING PREMIER : I hope we will never exploit the electoral situation as vou used to do when you were in office. '

Mr. MACARTNEY: I nf)ver did exploit ihe electoral situation. I am not aware that: I have ever taken a big hand in it. The hon. gentleman himself, I know, takes a v«ry keen intere«t, and his young colleague is probably a v~ry apt pupil. Our friends on the Government side are prepared to hand the government of this country over to kids of eighteen, and they are prepared to hand it over to the nomadic worker who come<> from Victoria, 1'asmania, or. New South V\T ales, and whose movements the electoral rPgistrars of this State find it particularly difficult to trace. They are the class of men who are known under different names on -different occasions. ·

1\Ir. HARTLEY : That is a libel on the workers of Queensland.

Mr. MACARTNEY: I think the common sense of the people is such that they will be able 'to appraise the Government at their true vdue when they endeavour to bolster up l'lle electoral laws by the inclusion of people of that kind. The hon. member for Dalby said all we want is a fair thing. Let us have on the roll every man who is honestly entitled to a vote, and let us have off the roll the names of every person who is not Enti tied to vote. Let us have our own affairs governed by our own people, and leave these tiddlywinking little tricks of party politics out of it altogethe~·. I think

Mr. M acartne:y.]

1092 Elections Act [ ASSE1VIBL Y.] A mendrnent Bill.

the matter might be considered from the point of view of substituting some other more suitable word or other amendment for the word" permanently." •

Mr. SMITH: It is quite clear to me that ;t is the intention of th~ Opposition to give every facility possible to strike people off the roll. It is well to bear in mind-in considering this Electoral Bill, and particu­larly having regard to the amendment­t~at it is the intention of this part3 and this GovPrnment to secure, as far as is humanlv possible, the rights of every citizen in the State; that is to say, it is of absolute importance that every citizen of Queensland shall have the right to vote for some elec-torate within the State. -

Mr. MoRGAN : And some citizens of other States.

Mr. SMITH: Let us sec, for a moment, khat the methods were of hon. members opposite, and their particular kind of elec­toral machinery, and what they would like to see introduced into this Bill. We will remember that in the past, under tht:ir elec­toral laws, a tent, which was the habitation of a railway construction worker, was not a residence. As a consequence, they struck off the roll many nomadic workers in the State, the men who were building the rail­way> of this State and making it possible to develop its great resources.

Mr. MACARTNEY: Try and say something near the truth.

Mr. SMI'rH : It is no good the hon. member becoming in any way excited in this n.atter. He knows that what I am saying is corr~ct. He knows a good deal about gerrymandering during election times.

The CHAIRMAN : Order ! Order ! Mr. SMITH : If he starts to be nasty

with me, I can retaliate.

The CHAIRMAN : Order ! Order ! Mr. MACARTNEY: I asked him to stick to

the common truth. Mr. SMITH : We know it has been the

method in the past, when hon. members opposite had control of the administration, to make it easy to strike men off the roll. IIJi various parts of Queensland, particularly those which are chiefly serv(!d by <>teamer, it is quite easy for the Liberal leagues-or whatever name they may be masquerading under for the time being-to s()cure a pas­senger list. That was the method continu­ally adopted by the opponents of Labour in the past. It was their custom to secure the passenger list at all the ports of Northern Qu<)ensland, and when a certain space of time had elapsed, to go to 'the electoral registrar and lodge an objection to those names.

Mr. MACARTXEY : It is done by the Labour party to-day.

The CHAIRMAN : Order ! Order! Mr. SMITH : I remember a case very

clearly where 500 names were objeeted to by hon. members opposite. It is their desire, by moving amendments in this Bill, to per­petuate a system whereby it is easy to remove men from the rolL It is my idea-and I think that it is the idea of this Government -that every facility should be given for people to be on some roll within the State, and to ha vc the right to record the vote, which is the badge of their c-itizenship. After all, what does it matiPr for what

[1lfr. 1lfacartney.

electorat" a man votes, if he exercises a vote for a constituenc-y in Queensland? It is much better to have a name inadvertently on the roll than to have the position that per,sons should be on the roll whose names eannot be found there. In my own district in the 1915 election. and in the 1912 election, and in .B'ederal elections also, I have known c,"es of people who had gone for a trip to New South \Vales, or New Zca.land, or somewhf're else to recuperate their health. They have been away so long as to enable others to object tu their names being on the rolls, and. an election taking place almost immediate!,· on their return, they have been deprh-ed of their rights of citizenship. Hon. members opposite want ·to make it easy to strike men off the rolL They recognise that a limited franchise and a small roll are in their interests. It is the working classes who, in their search for employment, have to move from place to place, and it is they whom hon. members opposite desire to have the opportunity of removing from the roll. Take, for example, the citizen of Townsville who has become unemployed. He travels into ,the Bowen electorate. from there to Charters Tow<>rs, from there to the Flindere. Under the system advocated by hon. mem­bers opposite that man would be struck off the roll and, an election intervening, he would not have the right to assert his citizen­ship. It should be the object of Parliament -it should be the purport of any electoral Act-to secure for every citizen, so far as humanly possible, the right of recording a vote.

Yrr. MORGAN: WB quite expected that thf' hon. member would oppose this amend­ment. I do not think he thoroughly under­stands what we are talking about, because it refers to those who leave the State, not to those who leave one electorate and go to anoth<'l' within the State. That is the ques­tion the hon. member has been dealing with .-:,the case of a man who left Townsville and went to Bowen, and so on, and was away six or seven months. The hon. member has spent his time in letting off so much hot air and not dealing with the amendment in any shape or form. The hon. member may have been rccsponsible in caucus for getting the Minister to circulate the amendment, so that the period for which voters could be out of the State might be twelve months instPad of onlv six months. He comes from an elec­torate where a great many voters are only present three or four months of the year. Their wives and families live in Victoria or New South \Vales or some other State, and they go up to thB canecutting or othm­seasonal work. ThPy go a,way with their big cheques.

Mr. WHITFORD: And work hard for them.

Mr. MORGAN: I admit they work hard for them, and I am not objecting to their coming from the Southern States and engaging in that work. They take their money away with them, as they are cntitl~ to do, and live in other States. They get on the roll in Queensland, and thev cannot oo struck off unless they apply to' have their names placed on another roll in Queensland. 'fhe Minister made what everyone will recognise was a sill) remark when he was asked: " How will they prove that the man was permanently away?" and hB said: "When he applies to get on the roll in another State." Hayp imtrudion~< been

Elections Act [l OCTOBER.] Amendment Bill. 1093

i>sued to the electoral registrars to go through the rolls in Southern States? It would be an a.bsolute impossibility. We know perfectly well that a great number of the men who voted in Sydney at the last election, and, perhaps, in Melbourne, still have. their name~ on the rolls of some State electorates in Queensland. I have. an exampLe from my own electora.te of what is po&sible. A man in Miles, whom I knew perfectly well, sold his business and went back to New South \V ales, where he entered into business again. On the day of the last election he happened to be visiting his brother in Miles, and although h0 had been a\\ ay for two years, his name was still on the roll, because he had not applied to have it placed on another roll in Queensland, although he had tpplied to have it placed on a roll in New South \V ales.

Mr. \VHITFORD : If he had been a. Labour supporter, you would haYe struck him off the roll.

::\1r: MORGAN: We could not get him struck off the roll. If I go to the Registrar and say " Here is a list of twenty names of men 'who are outside Queensland." He sayR., " I cannot rmnove their na1ues because they have not applied to be placed on any other roll in Queensland." That man walked up to the polling-place and-I do not know for whom he vot<>d-the scrutineer of the Labour candidate challenged his vote. The scrutineers knew him M well as I did, becausE' in the country we all know each other by the name of " Tom " or " Bill " or '' .Jim,." as the case ma:y be: The Labo~r scrutineeJ," thought he was going to record his vote for me, and said, " This man has been out of the State for two years." The r~turning officer said, "I cannot object to him; his name is on the roll, and he has the right to vote." I do not think we need anything more than that. We want to sC'e that every man and woman who is pntitled to a vote should haYe it, but those who are not resident in Queensland should not record votes. Those sugar-workers and others who spend only a few months in Queensland out of the year should not be able to record their votes unless they are in Queensland, and likewise be able to record votes in the Southern State in which they happen to live. Yet that has happened every time there has been an election. Why was it necessary in New South Wales and Victoria to provide a special place for recording votes, where it had not be.:;n previously done? I had no objection to it personally-it gave visitors the opportunity to vote-but we found there was no opportunity of checking the persons who were recording their votes, and ascertaining whether they were entitled to do so. They may have been personating other individuals whom they knew to be on the roll in Queensland. I think that members on both sides will admit that the arrange­ments in Sydney were disgraceful. With

regard to the illustration given [9 p.m.] by the hon. member for Mackay

respecting electors leaving his district and going to another State for health reasons. I think that in such cases the removal of the names of those persons from the electoral roll will not be likely to inter­fere with the hon. member's prospects of election. Something should certainly be done in the direction indicated by the amendment. We on this side admit that every person should have a :vote, but we object to those

individuals who are in Queensland only for a short period being able to record their votes for members of the Queensland Legis­lative Assembly. The individual I referred to just now as recording his vote at Miles at the last election is still on the roll, although he has gone· back to New South \Y ales. I admit that some provision is to be madP to deal with such cases, but in my .iudgment the time fixed is not long enough. ·we are quite prqpared to meet the Govern­ment on fair grounds, but so far as clean rolls are concerned--

Mr. CARTER: The cleanest and best rolls Queensland ever had.

Mr. M ORGAN: I contend that the rolls in Queensland were never in a more filthy condition than they are at the present moment. The rolls of this State are a dis­grac~ to the Government.

Hon. J. LARCO:MBE: That is a reflection on the Electoral Registrar.

Mr. MORGAN: No, it is a reflection on the Act, not on the Electoral Registrar. I hope that the Minister will accept the amend­ment, or, if he disapproves of one portion of it. that he will introduce such amendment· as tnay be neoessury to carry out the views of the ·committee. ·

Mr. BEBBINGTON : There are several electorates in ~orth Queensland which are practically controlled by men outside Queens­land. \V e can scarcely say that the hon. member for Mackay represents people in Queensland, because his majority was made up of men living outside Queensland.

The CHA lRMAN : Order ! The hon. mem.ber must .deal with the clause.

Mr. BEBBINGTON: I say that the word' " permanently" is a blot on the clause. How are we going to prove that a man ha& " permanently'' left Queensland? The fact that that worrl is retained in the clause will mean that members will sit in this House· because thev represent, not Queensland electors, but" people who live in Sydney, Then, we know that it is a regular practi'!e for people living on the border to have thmr

, names on the electoral rolls for two States. They live for a timo in a paddock in Queens­land, and then have their names inserted on the Queensland electoral roll. Then they carrv on some business in the sister State, and 'get their names inserted in an electoral roll for that State. There should be some means of compelling- a person to choose· between the citizenship of one State and the· citizenship of another

The CHAIRMAN : Order ! The hon. mem­ber is not dealing with thA clauso

Mr. BEBBI::"<GTON: I think the matter I have referred to is one that should receive· serious consideration, and I have much pleasure in supporting the amendment.

Mr. GUN::'<: I underst~nd that one of the­planks of the Labour party's platform wa& one adult one vote, but this provision will not act that way. I represent a bor~e1· electorate and I know that there are qmte· a numhm: of people who live on the New E'outh Wales side who come into Queenslard to do some work, and who get their names on the Queensland electoral roll, so that they are on the rolls for both States at the same time. and there is no way of preventing­that. Some method should be devised for dealing with such eases, and probably a.

Mr. Gunn.]

1094 Elections Act [ASSEMBLY.]

.'atisfactory method would be to have the one Commonwealth roll for all the States.

Amendment (J[r. 3Iorgan's) put and nega­tived.

Hm;-. J. LARCOMBE : I move-That the word " six " be omitted with the view of .inserting thE) word " twelve," on line 28.

At twenty minutes after 9 o'clock p.m., Mr. FoLEY, one of the T-emporary Chair­en, relieved the Chairman in the chair. Mr. SWA YNE : This is another instance

in which the party opposite are breaking away from thE) platform they were so loud 1n supporting in years past. They said then that they stood for electoral purity. •We know that electoral purity consists of two things; first of all

1 that everybody who

is entitled to a vote snould be on the roll, end also that those who are not entitled to .a vote should, in justice to those who are en­titled, be removed from the roll. It is difficult now to get a man off the roll, no r:~atter how justifiable it may be that he sl-·ould be removed, and this Bill is obviously intended to increase that injustice. We havQ had an amendment carried which makes it almost impossible to get anyone off the roll, and increases the difficulty that has existed ·since 1915 by providing a t<;:rm of twelve months before anything in the way of re­moval can be done. At certain times of thE' _year we have thousands of workers from other States in our northern districts. I have nothing to say against thes€ men. They are industrious and estimable citizens, but they are not Queenslanders. They are simply birds •of passage, and, as the law stands, they can g-et on the roll after three months' residence in QueE)nsland; and once having got on the roll, if they leave Queensland to permanently settle in the other States, you cannot remove them from the roll for twelve months. Th<'y will become electors of the other States-probably they would never haYe lost their enfranchisement there and still retain their votes in this-and we shall have the spectacle of ::\lew South ·wales men, Victorians, and Tasmanians voting in Queens­land and ·turning thP. tide at election time. N~- one can say that that is fair or just. The policy of the party opposite is to place tlw destiny of the permanent residents who htwe stood by their district;;. in good and bad years, and spent their lives in building up the countr.r. in the hands of those who have. only been here for three or four months. 'They cannot describe that as political purity, and yet, who mouth€d political purity so loudly as they did before th.;y got into office, and who have departed from it as much as they have since? It shows the insincerity of hon. members opposite. I hope the amendment will not be carri(ld. 'The Bill, as introduced, provides for six months' ab·ence, which I think is. quite <mough. A man who has been away for six months, unlt'"<> he retains a home here, is not <;:ntitled to vote at Queensland elections. As it is, he may corn<;: in August or Sep­·tember and remain till the end of the year, and go back without any intention of return­ing, and yet he may still remain on the roll for the whole of the following year. By m<;:ans of the facilities provided for absentees to vote in the Southern towns and cities, these people can vote and turn the result of ·Queensland elections.

Question-That the word proposed to be <:,mitted (Hon. J. Larcombe's amendment) .stand part of the clause-put and negatived.

[2llr. Gunn.

Question-That the word proposed to be inserted, be so inserted-put--

Mr. VOWLES: I think twelve months is too big a period. To my mind six months i'> bad enough, and therE) is no reason shown for extending it to twelve months. When the Bill was framed, it would appear that it was thought that six months' permanent absence from Queensland would be reason­able e:nough to disfranchis<;: a pei'tlOn. What is the object of making it twelve months? It seems to me that it is to make it almost an impossibility to get any man off the roll. If a seasonal or nomadic worker who goes from one State to another happened to be in Queensland for only one day in twelve months that would be sufficient to entitle him to' remain on the roll, notwithstanding that he might be on the New South Wal~s und even the Tasmanian roll. This is not done for the purpose of protecting the bona fide worker.

Hon. J. LARCOMBE: What about the sugar­\vorker? He works in the industry six months of the year.

Mr. VOWLES: Wh.;re do<s he live 1 Where are his wife and children?

Hon. J. LARCOMBE: He has to go away to seek for employment.

Mr. VOWLES: We know that there is an influx from New South \Vales and other States during the season. Unless ~ p<;)rs'?n is domiciled here, he is not a resident m Queensland. My reading of the clause is that a man who has permanently left Queens­land is one who does not intend to come back ; but -if a man ldt his home behind him, no one could say t<hat he has left Queensland, because he will only be .away· tpmporarily. But a man whose home IS not here would he on the New South Wal<;:s roll, a.s w'ell as the Queensland roll, if he had been long enough here, and _JOU could_ never get him off. No man shomd be entitkd to be en two State rolls and the Commomvealth roll.

Mr. JAMES: A me~:pbcr of the National party was in two Parliaments at th<; same time. It shows the political morahty on this side. (Laughter.)

Mr. VOWLES: I do not know that t?ei:e is any political morality on that side-;-It IS

the fir;;t time I havp evPr heard about it. ~t appears to me that the intention of th1s amE'ndment i;; to make it hopeless, under the objecting section of the principal Act, to get a certain cla<Ss of man of\ the roll. I can understand th<:re may be some sense ?r reason in asking for the time to be SiX months, but not to make it twelve mot:tths. I hope the Minister :rill tell us 'vhy it 1s desire-d to alter the time to twPlve montho. becausE' I have another amendment to move on the-same clause a little later on, ~ealing with another class of worker withm the State. They have the right, so far as the Commonwealth is conenned, . to vote. any­whcr<; in the CommonwE'alth, nrespeckye of where they live; but we should not legisl>:te so that any petson will have the opportu_mty of being on two State rolls at the same ti'me.

HoN. J. LARCO;',iBE: The balance nf argument is in favour of the amcnd~lE'nL the obje<'t of which is to protcc·t the _ngh_t•·. of a certn in cl ass of worker'< "Vho reside . m Queensland but have to leave temporanly and go to another State in search of work. Unrler the original clause, if a man lived

Elections Act [l OCTOBER.] Amendment Bill. 1095

·outside the State for six months, he could he struck off the roll. That seemed to be an unreaBonable proposition.

~r. VowLEs: How could he be <'truck nff '!

HoN. J. LARCO:MBE: Under the clause as originally drafted, if he permanently left Queensland and lived outside of Queensland for a continuous period of six months, he would not be entitled to vote.

::Yir. VOWLES: But he could only be struck off under the procedure laid down in section 32 of the Principal Act.

HoN. J. LARCOMBE: This clause pro­,·ides an additional ground of disqualifica­tion.

:'\Ir. ELPHINSTONE : If his home were hf're, he could not br· struck off.

HoN. J. LARCO:YlBE: Objection could be taken on the ground that his home was not here, and, if he wore outside the State for ,i~ .months and a day, according to the ongma] clause he would not be entitled to Yote.

Mr. ELPHINSTONE: You cited the case of a man ~.:eking work in another State. It could not be successfuiiy argued that he had per­manE'ntly left Queensland if his home were .in this State.

HoN. J. LARC01IBE: In many cases he would be a smgle man. But even in the ca'e of a married man, if th~ clause were passed in its present form, there would be c. grBat danger of his being struck off the roil because he was outside th0 State for more than six months.

::\Ir. VOWLES: But you are amendin~ eec· tion 32 to bring it into line with that. "

HoN. J. LARCO::YIBE: This is adding to the grounds of disqualification.

::Ylr. VoWLES: You would have to object to h1m, and you would have to ta,ke certain procedure.

Ho~. J. LARCOMBE.': If it were prayed in court that he was away from the State for six months, you would have proved your ground of objection, and he must he struck off. That would be an un­fair provision, because frequently men havB to leave Queensland, and they might be Hruck off the Queensland roll without having qualified for enrolment in :Now South \Vales. If they earn more than £200 per annum in t~ueensland, they are liable to pay income tax here, and, on the ground that ther<' ·honld he no taxation without representation we should retain their names on the roll. '

Hon. \V. H. BARNES: Are you not going tu allow such men to have votes in two Sta tos under this amendment?

HoN. J. LARCO::YIBE: J'\o.

Hon. W. H. BARNES: Of course you are!

HoN. J. LARCO::YIBE: We will do nothing <>f the kind. If a man's name is on another State roll, that .would h• a. very strong ground for ob]0d10n to the retention of his name on a Que<ensland roll.

Hon. \Y. H. B.m~ES: How are you going to fmtl ont that he is on the roil of anotlwr State'?

Ho~. J. LARCOMBE: By an insp.,ction of the rolls of the other States. Unless this amendment is agreed to, men may go away to work for six months, and then be struck off the roll. and they will be disqualifiBd every year in the same way.

Hon. \Y. H. BARNES: The amendment is intended to give a 1nan a Yote in Tasmania or in :New South \Vales as well as in Que<en·­land.

HoN. J. LARCO:MBE: It is not intBnded to do anything of the sort. It is no concern of this Government whether a man votes in l\'ew South \Vale,, or Tasmania, or anywhere <:'lsc. All we are concerned about is that the wealth-producers of Queensland-the men who pay the taxation of the country-shall have their full legal rights, and shall be protected. I think that is a reasonable pro­position. I have a vivid recoiiection of how. when this party sat in opposition, hon. mem­bers opposite, who are now plea·ding pathetically for consideration, denied us any rights. The hon. member for Bulimba then usrd to tell us that he was going to govBrn and not the Opposition. To-night we hear these pathetic appeals for consideration from the men who time and again refused to accept amendments moved by this sid0 to give the workers of Queensland their political rights. I moved many an amendment, .and always met with the same fate. On the merits of the question, we must protBct men who mav be away from the State for a, period of six months.

Mr. VOWLES: Irrespective of where their hornes are?

Box. J. LARCOMBE: It is a reasonable ''·'sumption that they are residents in this ~late if thev work h0re for six months in the year. "

}Ir. VOWLES: But their homos are where thPir wivBs and families are.

Hox. J. LARCOMBE: If they come hBre to earn a livelihood and have tp go to another State when the season ends, hon. members oppo .. ite want to oo able to strike their name~ off the roll. Yet we find that Mr. Ryan, the hon. mem~er for Essende;n, in Victoria was able to wm the seat whtle a member 'of the South Australian Parliament. That shows the insincerity and humbug of a:nti·Labour supporters when they condone that sort of thing in other State,,

1'Ir. RLPHINSTONE: '\Ve arc only concerned about Queensland affairs.

HoN. J. LARCOMBE : But you are part and parcel of the Nationalist party in Aus­tralia. (Opposition laughter.) I think the balance of argument is strongly in favour of the amendment, because without it thousands of electors might be disfranchisffi.

Mr. MORGAN: A person who leaves Queensland and r~sides in another State cannot be struck off the roil until it has been proved tbat he is enrolled in another State. \Ve on this side are of opinion that six months is a reasonabJ.e period : but si nu> the Bill was circulated the caucus has evidently rr,et, or perhaps a request has come from the Trad0S Hall to the Minister that th0 period of absenc·e should be extended to tweh·e months. If the six months were re­tained we• woul·d accept that, as we think

Mr. Mc"·~·wn.]

1096 Elections Act [ASSEJ\lBLY.] Amendment Bill.

six months is a fair thing. The principal Act dof"i not provide for a man who leaves th, State being struck off the roll at all.

Hon. J. L mcmrBE: Yes; look at section 32. Mr. MORGAN: ::'\o time is mentioned in

the principal Act at all. No doubt there are hundreds of cases in which men have been away from .the State for two or three years,

and the Electoral Registmr has [9.30 p.m.] no means of discovering whether

those men have been out of the State or whether they are Btill in the Stat<'. The original prnposal to have the period six months was an .accAptable o.ne. Is it right that men should have a vote in more than one State? The Minister cannot lav on the anti-Labour party the blame for the' position which existed in South Australia to wJ.ich he referred. Labour Governments have been in power in South Australia, and they did not remedy that position. It was a wrong thing for a member of Parliament to repre­sent two electorates in different Stutes. It takes a member all his time to represent one electorate.

Hon. J. LAROOMBE: He represents only one State now. He resigned in South Australia.

Mr. M ORGAN: I think if the :Minister will leave the clause as it is there will be very little objection offered by this side of the House.

Mr. BEBBINGTON: I am sorrv the Min­ister has not left the word "six "'in instead of trying to make it "twelve." We will have a certain number of workers coming-to the ="forth especially-every year. Some of them will go back to New South Wales, Vic­toria, and Tasmania. A certain number will return to Queens] and next yoor, but a por­tion will not. After a few years there will be on the rolls .a sufficient number of those who do not return, and httve no interest in Queensland, to turn a majority in any elec­torate. I contend that it is not fair to the farmers and those who live in the electorate to be outvnted by men who have no interest whatever in Queensland. Who is going to say that "John Smith," who is on a ::\'ew South Wales roll, is the same man as the "John Smith" who appears on a Queens­land roll? I remember on one occasion it was supposed that a party had voted three times in my electorate. When it came to be summed up it was found that three persons had voted under the one name. There was only one name on the roll. Each of the three persons had the right, and they all claimed that that name was theirs. It is a useless pursuit to try and follow people on to the electoral rolls of New South Wales or any other State.

Mr. ELPHINSTONE: I should like to put a position to the Minister and get his ;;iew upon it. What about the pastoral men who snend three or four weeks in Queensland and the rest of their lives and money in the Southern States? What about the business rnen. who are on the rolls in Queensland, go aown to New South Wales and Victoria, and reside there, and make a 1;'earlv visit to Quoensland? Does it mean that they are to permanently remain on the roll ? I put the reverse argument to the hon. gentleman, be­cause the argument so far has be.,n built up around the itiner":nt worker, It is going to apply pretty forcrbly to thrs other class of voter.

Hon. J. LAROOMBE : That shows we are not attempting to take any political advantage.

fMr. Morgan.

Mr. ELPHINSTONE: I am not .dealing­with that point at .all. I want to ascertain rhe exact position. Is that the position?

Hon. J. LAROO~IBE: If he only came for a fortnight's trip, he could not qualify. He would have to be here for a specified period.

A GoVERNMENT MEMBER: He has to be three months in Queensland and one month in the electorate.

Mr. ELPHINSTONE: There is another ouestion I want to put to the Minister. It must be u·dmitted, if the principle is adopted, that there will be certain electors on rolls in New South .Wales, Victoria, and Queensland. If his partv are going to adept the Common­wealth roll-and I preuume it is their inten­tion to a·dopt it as soon as possible-how is he going to redress the position which is created?

Hon. J. LAROOMBE: It is a very simple adjustment.

Mr. ELPHINSTONE : Why perpetuate the trouble? When a man has his ho-me in New South Wales, and comes to Queensland' for nomadic work, it stands to reason that he will be on the Queensland roll as well as the New South Wales roll, and he remains on those two rolls permanently. The Minister is perpetuating· the state of affairs which exists in QueenRlttnd to-?ay : he is gi;;ing m~n two votes just as certam electorates have sr:-;­vote;; com'pared with only one vote by others.

1\fr. MAC'ARTNEY: I can hardly con ceivo nf the Minister proceeding with thi;; amendment; it :'eems to be so absolutely ridiculous and so opposite to what ought to be the svstem in the State. Personally, I think th~t extending the vote to the young· people is only just a little bit of political flag-flying, and that the r!'al purpose o~ the Bill lies in the alteratiOn of machmery clauses. This proposal is going to assist in the manipulation of the electorates. It has been stated by hon. members on the oth~'' side of the House that as long as a man rs in Queensland it does not matter what elec­torate he votes in respect of. Surely, that principle is not consonant with the electoral principles which the Lttbour party !_la ve ad_vo­cated in days gone ):>y,_ and IS not m ~eeP_mg with the general prmcrples of our legrslatron. Under this proposed amendment-;-! am referring now to the amE>ndment whrch the Bill before the Chamber provides-you can­not o-et a man off the roll until he is six months-now it is proposed to be extended to twelve months-absent from Queensland. Surely there is no f<>irness, no common sense attach~d to that ! There i£ no protection so fttr as the interests of any ;;otere in the State are concerned. It is simply an extension of the svstem which permits men who have absolutely no mterest whatever in the affairs of the State to remain on the rolls and to vote in an election affecting the interests of the State: to vote in districts in which they have no interests whatever.

Can it be said that that is fair or reason­able or a bona fide protection of the interests of any man? Since the Labour party have been in power the electoral law has been altered twice, and the whole operation of e·very amendment has been to keep people on the rolls who are not entitled to vote and put a difficulty in the way· of getting such people off the rolls. It is not the idea of this side to get men off the roll, so long as they have any right to be there. We want only what

ElectionB Act [i OCTOBER.) Amendutent Bill. 1097

is fair as between the political parties, hav­ing regar·d to the interests of Queensland. This Bill is being pressed forward on the eve of several by-elections, if not on the eve of a greater appeal to the people, and I think it is, perhaps, just as well that the people of Queensland should understand the nature of the· manipulation that is being attempted. I would like to know what citi­zen outside of this House-outside the mere conflict of party politics-would say that it is a fair and reasonable proposition that a man who has actually permanently left Queensland should have a voice• in the repre­sentation of this State? It is too absurd to think that it has the support of the people. I trust that the hon. member will see the absurdity of it; and I propose to call atten­tion to every clause in connection with which this principle is attempted to be introduced, by division if need be.

Mr. SW A YNE : I do not think the Minis­ter has given us any reason for his changed attitude in this regard. We have here the amending Bill drawn up in accordance with his wishes or the wishes of his predecessor, in which six months is provided. .Now, with­out giving any particular reason, he asks us to alter it to twelve months. We know that rhe party opposite arc dominated by out­side organisations-that they are merely th• mouthpiece of people outside. Is it poe'>ible that instructions have be·en received from out­eide that the six months will not s<:>rve their purpose, and that anybody who has live·d in C{ueensland for three months, and has left Queensland without any intention of coming back, shall have a control of Queensland affairs for twelve months afterward!'? The thing is manifestly unfair and unjust to the residents of Qu·ecnsland. It is a vital departure from the electoral purity about which hon. members opposite talked when in opposition.

Question-That the word proposed to be omitted (J1r. Larcombe's amendment on clause 6) stand part of the clause-put; and the Committee divided:-

Jlir. Armfield Barber Carter

, Cooper, F. A. , Cooper, W. , Dnnstan

Forde Free

,, Gledson Hardacre Hartley Hunter Huxham

,, Larcombe Tellers: llir. F.

Mr. Barnes, G. P. , Barnes, W. H.

Bayley , Bebbington , Bell

Blphinstone ,, Gunn ,, ::\Iacartney ,, Moore

AYES, 27. Mr. ~fcCormack

, McLachlan O'Sul!ivan

, rayne , lliordan , Ryan, D. , Hyan, H. J.

Fmith ,. Stopford

Theodore , Wellington , Whitford

Winstanley

A. Cooper and Mr. Gledson. NoEs, 17.

Mr. Morgan ,_ Petr1e

Sizer ,, Rwayne ,, Taylor , Yowles

Walker , Warren

Tellers: Mr. Bayley and Mr. Sizer.

Resolved in the affirmative; and amend­ment agreed to.

Mr. VOWLES : I move the addition of the following proviso to follow line 33, page 2 :­

" Provide·d that sqch person shall have been resident for a continuous period of

six months within such electoral district immediately preceding the date of such election."

I propose that it should follow the saving clause-

" But, save as last afore·said, and sub­ject to the disqualifications set out in the last preceding section hereof, ,every per­son who is enrolled for an electoral district shall be entitled to vote at any election for that district."

Provided that he shall have resided in that district for six months immediate!~ preceding the election. The present trouble under the Elections Act is that once a man gets on the roll, nothing, not even a charge of dynamite, can shift him.

All we want is that there shall be no duplication of votes. I know that . in my own district many shearers-and I thmk the same thing appli()s_ to .workers on the wharv_es in the Northern d1str1ct-a:oe enrolled on dif­ferent rolls in different name,. They will tell you that their reason for assuming dif­ferent names is that they are blacklisted, but the fact remains that they travel about under different names and get enrolled for more than one electorate. This clause gives a fine opportunity for such men to get their names on different electoral rolls, and men who do that will not be above recor·ding more than one vote if they think the occnsion requir~s it. \Ve know that such men congregate m Brisban<> and that they can vote for ev.::ry electorate in Queensland, as the opportumty is given for the duplication of votes. Every Electoral Registrar should have the oppor­tunity to object to the name of any perwn being retained on a roll if he has ceased to reside in the electorate for six months. When an elector leaves one district for another, the dutv is imposed upon him to make..­applicatlon for enrolment in the _ne:v district to which he has removed, and If It can be proved that a man has left an electorate for six months prior to an election. he should not be entitled to vote. Following the pro­vision made in the amendment just passed, dealing with electors who have left Queens­la.nd permanently for twelve months, I should make the period in this amendment twelve months, instead of six months. As I have said accordino· to the Act an elector has imp~sed upon him the obligation of applying for fresh enrolment when he has removed from one district to another district; and, if he does not do that, he is committing a brE)ach of the Act. Why, then, should he not be penalis<>d? We can only assume that there is a reason for not carrying out the provisions of the Act. There are, in these days, very few cases in which men. have lived in a district for six months Without getting on ~he electoral_ roll. I know of one case in whiCh a man m my electorate has been away two years, and though the Elec­toral Registrar has written to him about th" matter, his name has never been removed from the roll. The man travel> about under an assumed name, and he may be on another electoral roll under that assumed name. \Vhy should any elector be in the poc.-ition to be­able to enrol himself on two or three rolls? If you look at section 32. of. the A?t, you will find that the only obJeCtiOn whiCh can be made to that ma.n's name being retained 'on the roll is that he has left the district and has claimed enrolment for some other

Mr. Vowles.]

10\JS Elections Act [ASSRlVIBLY.] Amendment Bill

<listrir:t. If he does not claim that enrolment in his own name, what remedy have ~e '? Surelv to goodne<s I, or my committee, should have the right to object to his name being retained on the roll when he has been <tbsent from the electorate for two vears. When men do that sort of thing· they generally do it for a purpose.

JYlr. PAYNE: You won't find 2 per cent. o{ thG men changing their names.

Mr. VOWLES: Two per cent. in an eJec. tor ate may be .<:mough to decide the dection. The shipping companies will tell you that men wo1·k on one wharf under one name and on another wharf under anothr·r na.me. \Yhy : For th<> purpose of evading the inco1ne· ta~'.::.

.Hr. \YrNST.\XLEY: How it is they are not prosecuted';

Mr. VO\VLES: Because we have a Labour Governn1ent in power. (Gov0rrnncnt laugh­ter.)

Mr. \VINSTANLEY: \\'hat about the Com· llH il''<'f·alth income tax·:

:\It-. VO\VLES : I do not kno,,·. but I know that, :t': far as shearers are concerned, they openl:y roast about working under different name.-:.

At five minutes to 10 o'clock p.m., Th<> CHAIR3IAN r~sumed the chair.

:\Ir. PAYNE: I cannot sit quiet and ht .,r the hon. member who has just a.ddre,oed the Hous"' libel the best men in the communitv. (Hear, hear!) I can prove in t\vo word~ that what he says is absolutely incorred. The hon. member says that a great majority of the men in the W'est work at this shed under one nam<: and at another shed under another name. As a matter of fact, in almost every shearing shed in the Central di~;;trict, a man who is a shea-rer has to pn ''·nt his union ticket. According to thf' argument of the hon. member. a shearer would require to have half a dozen different tick<:•ts. But the hon. member's statement is absolutely incorrect. The men in the \Vest Rl'C '"ore honourable than the men in th<> cit~-.

The CHAIRMAN : Order t As the hon. member for Mundingburra has left the chair, I will. restate, the question. The ques­

tiOn was-That clause 6, as [10 p.m.] amended, stand part of the Bill.

since which it has been proposed to further amend the clause by adding, after hue 33, the word;;-

" Provided such person shall have been '!'sident for a continuous period of six months within such electoral district i.m:­mediately preceding the date of such election.''

The questior, now is-" That the words proposed to be added

be w added."

:Mr. PAYNE: Whatever reason hon. members on the other side may have for abusing shearers, I think they are about the best men in the community. If I wanted t,, find an honourable man, I would not go about' the citii0J to find the man I wanted to trust. I do not think the hon. member for Da}b:;· is playing the part of a man \>hen he oaid what he did. The shearers have to pro­duce their union ticket in every shed. That

[llfr. Vowles.

upsets his whole argument. There was a time, very many years ago, when the most honourabie men in the community had to change their names, or they would have got no employment. Anyone who. to~k a promin­ent part in Labour orgamsatwn had to change his name, or he would get no employ· ment

Mr YowLES: You admit that it is true?

}lr. PAY::'\E: Xo, that is thirty years ago.

}Jr. VowLES: And it exists to-day.

}Ir. PAY::\E: I resent the imputation very much. I am not one who likes to see the name of a man on the roll which should not be there. A nian may have his name on the Mitchcll roll, and no one may know where he is for twelve months-whether he is out of the State or not-and there is noth­ing wrong in allowing that man twelve r.tonths, unless it is proved that he ha.« permanently left the State.

Mr. VoWLES: I think you do not know what vou are dealing with. What is the amendment?

}Ir. P A YXE : That you reduce the period to six months. (Opposition laughter.) The hon. member is not playing the part of a man in placing a stigma on the best men in the community.

The CHAIRMA);: Order! Order!

Hox. J. LARCOMBE : It is obvious th>;t the amendment cannot be accepted, as It would destroY the whole principle of the present Act. 'At present, if a man .resid<;s in an electoral district one month he IS entitl~d to vote. but the hon. member for.Dalby wan~s to provide that he shall be. resident for si.x months preceding an electwn before he IS

entitled to exercise a vote.

Mr. VoWLES: If he has been a month in an electorate he makes a claim.

HoN. J. LARCOMBE: The hon. member was chiding the hon. member for Mitchell a moment ago, but he himself is not quite seized of the effect of what he has movecl. The amendment would make the Bill the nwst conservative measure in Australia, At present a men from another Stltte can get on the 'roll after he has been in an electoral district for three months, and if he comes from outside Australia he is entitled to be enrolled after six months. But the hon. m<>mber wants to strike off the roll men work­ing on the railways or in seasonal industries, nwn who have to go' from place to place to secure a livelihood.

::\lr. VOWLES: Nonsense!

Hox. J. LARCO;>IBE: The clause reads-" But sa>e as last aforesaid and sub­

ject to' the disqualific.ttions set out in the last preceding section hereof, every person who is enrolled for an electoral district shall be emitled to vote at any election for that district."

The hon. member for Dalby wants to make it so that a man is not entitled to vote except he has resided there f'!r six months continuously_ That would strike thousands of men off th<> roll who have to move a bout to secure employment in seasonal industries. The arguments of the hon. mem­ber for Dalby are more imaginary than real,

Elections Act [l OCTOBER.] Amendment Bill. 1099

lwcause the Electoral Registrar points on• that the roll is up-to-date, and he has furnished information, which I have sup­plied to the hon. member for Oxley, which indicates that on the basis of the Federal roll there i i no such evil or weaknece as th;• hon. member thinks. The effect of the amendment would be that an elector wmnld have to reside ,six months in an electoral district before he would be entitled to exer­··ise the franchise.

Amendment U'"fr. Vowles's) put and nega­tived.

Question-That clause 6, as amended, stand part of the Bill-put; and the Committee divided:-

c,r, .b·mfield Carter

,, Cooper, F. A. Cooper, W. Dunstan Foley Forde Free Gledson Hardacre Hartley Hunter Hnxham Larcumbc Lloyd

AYES, 29.

Mr. McCormack McLachbn

, Mullan O'Sullivan Payne Riordan R;yan, D. Ryan, H. J.

, Smith Rtopford Theodore Wellington Whitford Winstanley

Teller.<: :CIIr. Forde and Mr. H. J. Ryan.

"\lr. Barnes, G. P. Barnes, \N. H. Bayley Behbington

.. Bell Elphinstonp Gunn

):facartnPy

NoEs, 16.

l\Ir. :Moore , :Morgan

Petrie Sizer

, Swayne , Taylor

Vowles Walker

Telltf1'8: Mr. Bayley and Mr. Sizer.

Resolved in the affirmative.

Clause 7-" Amendment of section 1}/'­

"\fr. MACARTNEY: The clause alters the date for the is-,ue of the annual roll, and, as no explanation was given on the second read­ing. I would ask the Minister if he will tell '"~~vhy the chang.:· is being made.

HoN. J. LARCOMBE: The amendment is being made in accordance with the request of the Principal Electoral Officer. It will have the effect of bringing out the annual roll in January instead of in March. This will eJ.able hon. members to have an up-to-date rnll at the commencement of the year instead nf having to wait until March for it.

Clause put and passed. Clause 8-"Amenrlment of section 19 "­HoN. J. LARCOMBE: I move the omis-

'ion of lines 47 to 49, page 2, and line·s 1 to 4. page 3, with a view to inserting the ·i•Jllowing :-

" (iii.) A person who-(a) While a student in any college,

school, or other educational institution, lodges in such college, school, or insti­tution, or at some place near the-reto; or

(b) While a trainee for the calling of registered nurse, lodges at a hospi­tal or at some place near thereto ; or

(c) Become• a patie-nt in any hospi­tal; or

(d) Dwells in any encampment; shall be deemed for the pqrposes of this Act to live in the electoral district in which he or she lived or was enrolled immediately prior to residence under any of the conditions aforesaid."

The object of the amendment is to bring the clause into line with the section of the Act which provideq that the inmates of Dunwich shall be enrolled for the electorate from which they came• rather than for the electorate in which they reside.

Mr. MACARTNEY: The hon. gentleman sotvs that the object of the amendment is to bring the clause into conformity with ot):ler pl·ovisions containe_d in the Act,. ~nd 01~es the case of Dumnch as the gmdmg pnn­ciple; but I would like to point out that a great question of controversy for many years past has been the right of a working man tv vote at the place where he is working, irrespective of his domicile or home. As I enderstand the Act as it stands now, a worker whose home is in Paddington, and whose wife and family live in Paddington, is entitled to votE' either in respect of Pad· dington or in respect of ~he ele_ctorate i_n

.which he works for the tJme bQmg. This 2.mendment is entirely inconsistent wi_t;h that principle so that it cannot be moved JUSt for the pnrp~se of bringing the clause into line with other parts of the Act. So far as _concP,rns. r•ortion of the w;:>rd:; propos(;!d to ~e mserted, they are not obJectwnable, assummg we are 1erepared to extend the franchise to children of eighteen years of age. I do not se" any provision made here for young people. who are at school in other States. I take 1~ the idea of the Bill is to proYide the machm~ry to carry out ev0ry alterat·ion. in the Ac;t. That appPars to ha--:e bee:" omitted. It Will

,sist the person resident m some other part of the State, who will be deemed .to be lH'ing at home and will have a vote m t~e eit1.1ation of the home. However, that JS neither here nor there. The argument that it brings it into line with other principles of the Bill does not seem to hold much water.

Amendment. agreed to : and cl a use 8, as omended, put and passed.

On clause 9-'' Amendment of section 21"­Mr. MORGAJ\' : I would like the. Minister

to give some explanation about this .. I see that the words '' who shall record hJS elec· torat<J after his name" are to be repealed, and the words " or any person guahfied to become an elector" are to be mserted in I:eu thereof. I think that is rather vague.

Hon. J. L<RCmiBE : It is bringing it into conformity with the F.;:deral Act.

Mr. MORGAK: It may be; _but I think the Minister will admit there JS reaso;t to doubt whether certain persons are qnahfied, and until a person fills in a form and makes aJ' application we do not know whether he is qualified or not.

Hon. J. LARCOMBE: You want uniformity. and this is providing for it.

Mr. MORGAN: The unfortunat0; pa~·t _is that the Minioter is prepared to give Jt m one direction and not in another. If the Act w<>re uniform. we wou!d not ha':e. the alteration in th<;: age. I thi_nk the Mimster ought to explain it a httle more .. It f<.ppears to me to be open to corrupt10n.

Mr. Morgan.]

1100 Elections Act [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

Under the Act at present a person who witnesses a claim has to be an elector. He can b., traced much more easily than the ntan who is only qualified to become an elector.

Hon. J. LARCOMBE : This will enable the person who possesses the residential quali­fication to witness a claim.

Mr. MORGAN: When a form is put in it now must be signed by a person who is on the roll. The Electoral Registrar can discover whether that person is on the roll, and he has something to guide him. There is some­thing genuine about it. The person who witnesses that signature can be traced in cases o£ forg~ry or trickery, because his name is on the electoral roll. If this alteration is made, it gives th~ opportunity for forms to be witnessed bv those who cannot be traced at all. I thin"k it is opening the door for bogus claims to be made, and there is no way of tracing the person who witnesses the signature of the applicant. I do not think it is advisable.

Hon. J. LARCOC\IBE: The Federal authori­ties found no weaknees in it.

Mr. MORGAN: Never mind about the. Federal authorities. I think we are going too far in that direction.

Mr. GARTER: Personally, I cannot s~e rcny weakness in this. The hon. member has failed to point out any. It has been in q!eration for very many years in connection with Federal enrolm<'nt. Personally, I can­not see any advantag~ in having anyone at all witnessing it. A man is responsible for his own acts If he sends to a merchant for goods, he does not get someone to witness hi>' order. If he does something wrong, he will be punished. Lots of persons witness names of persons they are satisfied have lived in the particular district. A man might know a person for six or eight months in a place, anJ yet that person might be living tmder an alias. He witneR·,es the signature m good faith. Why should not th~ hon. member for Murilla and his wife witness each other's application if they are both eligible to go on the roll?

Mr. VOWLES: I do not think we can be too particular in this matter. There should b" some check on applications for registra­tion or transfP,r. The present restriction is not confined to an elector of the same dis­trict. As long as he is an elector for some electoral district in Queensland it is suf­ficient. That being so, there is no hardship on any person. If a man can get close enough to get an electoral claim form or a t.J·ansfer form, he should be able to to get an <'lector to witness his signature.

Mr. CARTER: They may be posted to him.

Mr. VOWLES: What remote places are there in Queensland wh~re he could not get some other elector of the State of Queens­land within a reasonable time?

Mr. CARTER : Thne are many places in my Piectorate from which they send for the form. There might not be an elector handy.

Mr. VO\VLES : People do not drop down in the \vilderness and decide that thev want to get on the electoral roll. They na"turally come from some populated area, where they have had the opportunity of becoming enrolled. We have not to deal with imagin­ary cases. Supposing I sent to any hon.

[Mr. M organ ..

member's district and said I wanted h transfer some person off the roll on to another, what check has the Electoral Regis­trar got? He has not even the original application form for the purpose of com­parison of signatures. That has gone· to Brisbane. He take' it in good faith. Surely there should be some guarantee of the bona. fides of the application or the transfer-and that is the fact that it is witnessed by a person who is an elector and not by a. person who is qualified to be an elector. We are

making this thing more open to [10.30 p.m.] fraud every time. At first cer-

tain prescribed persons had to witness the claim ; then it was provided that an elector might do so, and now it is to be any person who is entitled to be enrolled. Who is to decide whether he is entitled or not? How is the Registrar to decide that it is witnessed by a puson who is entitled to be <'nrolled if he does not know who on earth he is?

Hon. J. LARCOC\!BE: Qualified to be an elector.

11r. VOWLES: It is the same thing. An alien or a person under the age of twenty-one may witne''l the claim. How is he to know·:

Mr. c,RTER: How do thev know that any of them are corr<'rt ? ·

11r. VO\VLES: He r·igns his name a.' an elector of a particular district.

Mr. CARTER: That is no guarantee.

Mr. VOWLES: It is no absolute guarante<>. If a man signs "John Smith, J.P.," there is no guarantee that he is a justice, of th<' peace', or that he is really the John Smith. but a person who is an elector can be traced. You can find the witnes~ just the same as in any other legal document, and, aft~r all, it is a legal document, and a very important on•·. too. I can picture many eases where such a proyision as is proposed might be used to get persons off the roll. A person might write in and e1av that so and so has left thc­district and wants to be transferred. Any­bodv at all can witness it; he simply state·. on the face of it that he is a person qua!ifi0d to be an elector.

Mr. J\h:LLAX: \Vould not his signature' b:' on his original application?

Mr. VOWLES: That is not lodged with the clerk of petty sessions.

Mr. McLLA~: But before he is transferred here in Brisbane?

Mr. VOWLES: I do not know. I know of manv ca·•.Cs where thev had to hunt up and were not able to find 'the original claim. Nearly the whole of the Dalby original claims were lost track of by a careless clerk of petty sessions. The fact remains that it is open to abuse, and when you have a means of checking that abuse, that means should be adopted.

Queo,tion put and passed. The House resumed. The CHAIRMAN

rC'ported progress. The further C"onsideration of the Bill in

Committee was made a.n Order of th"' Day for to-morrow.

The House adjourned at twenty-fiv0 minutes to 11 o'clock p.m.