james interview
DESCRIPTION
Kentucky civil rights interviewTRANSCRIPT
20 B 19
Kentucky Civil Rights Oral History Project
Interview with Daisy James
May 5, 1999
Conducted by Betsy Brinson
Kentucky Oral History Commission Kentucky Historical Society
20 B 19
Use and Quotation Policy
Authorization must be granted by the Kentucky Historical Society/Kentucky Oral History Commission to
use or publish by any means any archival material to which the Society holds copyright. To obtain
authorization, users will submit a completed Use Agreement to the Kentucky Oral History
Commission/Kentucky Historical Society Special Collections & Archives.
Users may not alter, distort, or change in any way the text or the audio to be used, unless otherwise
authorized by the Society/Commission. Researchers are responsible for obtaining permission to publish
by any means any material held at KOHC and the Society but to which the KHS does not hold copyright.
The Society is not responsible for any copyright infringement.
Users will not quote or otherwise reproduce in part or in whole any archival material, without citing the
“Kentucky Oral History Commission,” and without giving explicit written acknowledgement of the
collection from which it was obtained, as designated by the Society.
Users will present to the Kentucky Oral History Commission/Kentucky Historical Society Special
Collections & Archives one (1) copy of any publication using materials held by the Society or will
provide any other proof of appropriate acknowledgment and citation as the Society will designate.
The Society reserves the right to withhold permission for the reproduction of any material involving
unusual difficulty or great risk to the original.
For use and quotation inquiries:
The Kentucky Oral History Commission
Kentucky Historical Society
100 W. Broadway
Frankfort, KY 40601
(502) 564-1792
Quotation of materials from this transcript should be corroborated with the original audio recording if possible.
20 B 19
1
BETSY BRINSON: This is an interview with Daisy James on May 5, 1999, it takes place in
home in Owensboro and the interviewer is Betsy Brinson.
BRINSON: Thank you Daisy for being willing to talk with me today. Can we begin, please,
would you tell me your birth date, and your birth place, and a little bit about your family growing
up?
DAISY JAMES: Okay. My birth place is here in Owensboro, and, uh, I was borned on
December 24th, Christmas Eve, 1939. And, uh, I’ve lived in Owensboro all of my life with the
exception of three and a half years. My parents, uh, both parents, uh—I grew up in a home with
both parents, which at that time, was not unusual, but today it is. Uh, my dad died in 1993 and
my mother is still living and she’s ninety years old and still lives independently. I mean, she still
lives alone in her apartment with support and assistance from, uh—I’m her primary caregiver. I
have one brother who is still living and I have a sister—well, I had a sister who, uh, died, uh, in
1996 at the age of forty-five from Lupus, complications from lupus. And, uh, she’ll be dead
three years on June the 9th. So there were only three of us and, uh . . .
BRINSON: Where do you fall in the order?
JAMES: Uh, first-born.
BRINSON: You’re the oldest.
JAMES: I’m the oldest and my brother is second-born, and my sister was the baby.
BRINSON: What brought your family to Owensboro? Did your parents come here or do
you, in fact, have grandparents who were here earlier?
JAMES: Uh, my mother is from Tennessee and my dad was born out from Logan County,
Adairville, which is right outside of Logan County, uh, which is here in Kentucky. My parents
came to Owensboro, uh, I guess, by way of work that was going on during that time. And my
20 B 19
2
dad started out as somewhat of a, I guess, would be a helper in construction. I remember sitting
and listening to him talk about some of the things that he did when he was younger, and of
course, I wasn’t born, wasn’t thought of at that time . . . but helping to build Owensboro High
School and, uh, helping to build Frederica Street. And I thought, “Oh, this is wild,” you know,
helping to build those streets. But, anyway, there was a hotel here in Owensboro called The
Owensboro Hotel, I believe, and then later it became Owensboro Motor Inn and, uh, there—we
have a picture somewhere of my dad helping to build, uh, that hotel which was the only and
probably the first hotel in Owensboro. You’d probably have to talk to some other people that are
a lot older than I am, but I remember hearing Dad talk about that. Uh, my grandmother, uh, my
paternal grandmother, uh, I only knew her from living here in, in Owensboro, and I was named
after her. Her name was Daisy and I was named after her and I was named by my dad, Daisy
Mae, M-a-e, and, uh, Bryant, B-r-y-a-n-t. And then, uh, my maternal grandmother was, uh,
borned in the South in the Huntsville, Alabama area. I remember Mother taking us there as
children, uh, in the summer, my brother and I. And I remember hearing my grandmother speak
of working at the Redstone Arsenal where they built bombs or weapons for the war, I guess,
back during World War II, and I thought that was very interesting. But, uh, that’s mainly how
we came to Owensboro.
BRINSON: Let me back up because I’m not sure I understood. You said your paternal
grandmother was here in Owensboro. Did she grow up in Owensboro or . . .?
JAMES: Uh, as far as I know, evidently not. I think they all came from the Logan County
area, you know, from that area.
BRINSON: I see. Okay.
JAMES: But I only knew her from living here in Owensboro.
20 B 19
3
BRINSON: Okay.
JAMES: But, uh, we called her Granny and, uh, Granny had a large influence, I guess, in my
life. She always thought by me being the first grandchild—my dad had one brother and he was
younger. And my mother had two brothers and my mother was the oldest of those two, three of
them but she was the oldest. One of my mother’s brothers was, uh, blind. I think he was blind
from youth for, from some reason I don’t know. But I remember Uncle Mike and, uh, he used to
baby-sit us. I mean, I don’t know how he baby-sat us but he--we thought he could see [laughing]
because he just knew what we were doing at all times. And then I never knew my mother’s baby
brother who was Uncle J. D., and I think he died at a very young age when he was a child.
BRINSON: Tell me about your education here in Owensboro.
JAMES: My education in Owensboro. Uh, I went to a school called, uh, grade school, which
was called Paul Lawrence Dunbar School, or we broke it down and called it Dunbar School.
That school has since been torn down. It was located, oh, I guess probably in the 700 block of
Jackson Street here in Owensboro. And, uh, there was a schoolteacher by the name of Emma
Edwards and, uh, we called her Miss Emma. And Miss Emma was the principal of that school
plus she also taught, uh, I believe it was sixth grade, uh, at, at the school. And what I remember
so much about my grade school was the teachers were more like a parent away from home. And,
uh, [little laugh] I remember one year I won the good citizenship award, and it was a $25.00--I
think it was a savings bond or a check for $25.00 for being a good citizen. I think I received that
when I was in the sixth grade and that was for, uh, being a good citizen and what they said had
the potential of contributing to the community and doing all those things. Evidently, that
probably had some influence.
BRINSON: And this was an all-black school?
20 B 19
4
JAMES: Yes, it was an all-black school at that time. And then, uh, when you got to the sixth
grade and you went into the seventh grade, uh, you went to a school known as Western High
School. And it was like a junior high and a high school, and you finished your education there.
And that, too, was an all-black school. And, at the time of my senior year, uh, I guess it was
when school integration started and . . .
BRINSON: You graduated which year?
JAMES: Uh, 1959-60, that, that era.
BRINSON: Okay.
JAMES: And, uh, before, uh, I graduated from high school, during my senior year, for some
reason or other, I was chosen as one of very few students to go to Owensboro High School to
take a class. And we were allowed to take any class that we chose, uh, and I chose something
that we were not offered at our, at our school and I took Latin, uh, as one of my classes there. I
can’t remember taking anything else. I think some of the guys—there were one or two guys in
my class and, uh, they chose to, uh, take ROTC because we didn’t have that at our school.
BRINSON: Okay. I’m, uh, looking at an article that was done here about desegregation of
the Owensboro schools, uh, and published in the Daviess County Historical Society magazine
and that—in ’55 I believe it was, the Owensboro Board of Education did exactly what you said.
As sort of a transition period, they said to the black students: If we don’t offer a course in your
school, you can come to the white school to do that. That’s very interesting. That wasn’t very,
didn’t happen like that in many other places, uh, to provide that kind of transition. Uh, I wonder
how many students would you estimate took advantage of that? And what other kinds of courses
besides those that you identified you took do you recall students took?
20 B 19
5
JAMES: Oh, gosh. I can’t remember exactly how many, but it was very few. And I think we
were chosen to go there because they felt that we would adjust better. Uh, we were classified as
students being in the top ten of our class, and I guess they felt that academically we were
prepared somewhat to transition and not, you know—they said what I guess at that time, and I’m
kind of reluctant to say this because I didn’t feel that way and I still don’t feel that way: students
were selected that they felt would excel and be able to, uh, meet the grades, you know, make the
grades that . . .
BRINSON: How was that experience for you? Was this the first time—because now you
were probably a minority in the new school setting where you’d been the majority before. How
was that for you?
JAMES: To me, it was—it wasn’t—I didn’t feel different because, maybe, it was where I
grew up. I spent a great deal of time literally living in one of the homes. At the age of twelve I
had a job, supposedly “a job,” and lived in one of the most affluent neighborhoods in Owensboro
on Griffith Avenue. And I worked for a Jewish family, the Levis, and my job was just to make
sure that the children did not get into any mischief and sort of entertain them. I was a child
myself and there was probably maybe three or four, no more than four years probably, difference
in our ages. So, I had had exposure to the white race. And then across the street from us—we
lived in a real poor neighborhood. As a matter of fact, J.R. Miller Boulevard, where it runs
through the center of Owensboro, used to be the L & N Railroad track. And I lived on the east
side of the railroad track, and there were white children that lived on the other side of the railroad
track and we played together. I mean, it was just a small pocket of, of black families that lived
within maybe two or three block, four-block area. And, uh, we lived on what was called Lewis
Street at that time so I didn’t feel uncomfortable around white children, you know, in that time.
20 B 19
6
BRINSON: Growing up in a segregated South, were you aware of that segregation in any
way?
JAMES: There again, [clears throat] my exposure, I guess, growing up and probably some of
the things that our parents taught us which was: you can do anything if you apply yourself. And
even some of the things that some of the older teachers in the black schools—I never will forget,
there was a, there was a math teacher, well, he was my algebra teacher, and there was a poem
and it’s always been somewhat of my motto. And he said, “If a task is once begun, never leave it
till it’s done. Be the label great or small, do it well or not at all.” So, I kind of like grew up that
way. And my father always said that we could do anything that anybody else could do, and they
encouraged us to do our best in whatever we did and that we first had to respect ourselves in
order for others to respect us. And my parents were not educated but these were some things that
just came natural to them and, uh, they really demanded that we used, that manners—I mean
even sitting down to dinner, or supper as we called it then, you did not get up and reach across
the table. You sat at the table, you put one hand in your lap, and you ate with one hand. If you
wanted something passed to you, you would ask that it be passed to you. Very strict parents, uh,
parenting, I guess. They demanded a lot. And honesty, uh, was high priority. I was a Brownie
Scout and a Girl Scout. They believed in those types of organizations, uh . . .
BRINSON: Real core values.
JAMES: Right. Very strong.
BRINSON: Was your family active in a church?
JAMES: My grandmother was. Mom and Dad were really not. They encouraged us to go to
church, and there were certain things that we could not do if we didn’t go to church. Like, we
20 B 19
7
liked to go to the movies on Sunday afternoons, but if we didn’t go to church then movies were
out.
BRINSON: Which church did you go to?
JAMES: I went to Tenth Street Baptist Church, uh, which is still here in Owensboro. They
have a new church now. But my grandmother took me there; that was her church.
BRINSON: Tenth Street?
JAMES: Yes, Tenth Street. And my, uh, grandmother sang in the choir, and I got to sit in the
choir-stand right next to her, had my books and sang and—well, stood up when she stood up, and
I was so naïve. I just cannot believe—I always get goose pimples when I think about it, but I
guess she taught me also that I could do anything, you know. And I remember one Sunday
morning--she evidently told the minister that I was going to sing a song, a solo in church--and I
was maybe about four or five. And I hopped down out of that choir-stand and went down and
sang her favorite song. [laughing] And I even--I still cannot believe I did this. I cannot play a
piano; I’m not musically inclined. Now, I can--I know harmony, you know, and I love to sing.
As a matter of fact, I’m president of my church choir now, so it’s kind of, that kind of stuck, but,
uh . . . they said I was going to sing and play the piano, and I, as a child, went down, got up on
the piano stool and banged on the piano, ‘cause I know I could not play, and sang, I’ll Fly Away -
-it’s an old gospel hymn. And I sang that song and my grandmother came home and she told my
parents, “Oh, you would have been so proud of Daisy Mae.” All of the older people, they put
both names together, first and middle name. And, uh, said, “Daisy Mae, she sang, oh, she sang
and, oh, played that piano.” I thought, “Oh, my goodness.” I mean, at that time I really thought
it was hot stuff but it wasn’t.
20 B 19
8
BRINSON: Well, growing up, though, in Owensboro, which did have its segregated places,
uh, I understand there were restaurants that refused to serve African Americans, movie theaters .
. .
JAMES: Uh-huh. They were segregated.
BRINSON: . . . local transportation, uh, parks and swimming pools . . .
JAMES: Uh-huh, that’s true.
BRINSON: Were you—did you ever experience that segregation in a personal instance that
you can recall, feeling that this is not right?
JAMES: Well, I guess, perhaps, maybe there is a point in your life when you’re so naïve it’s
as though it’s a natural thing. But as I grew older I could see injustices and I started to question
why. Why do we have to go to, uh, it used to be called Douglass Park, I believe, to that
swimming pool? Why can’t we go to the Sports Center swimming pool? Because at that time
there was a swimming pool at the Sports Center. Why can’t we go to that pool? Uh, I remember
there was--my mother’s uncle was, I guess at that time they called them a porter, on the L & N
Railroad. And I remember the train station, which it’s still here, the old L & N depot which
they’ve made office spaces out of, and it’s been used as a restaurant and all of those things.
They had a black waiting area for the train and a white waiting area. And they had white
restrooms and water fountains even in there, and then the blacks had their part. And I remember
when Mother would take us to Alabama or down to Chattanooga, Tennessee that, uh, you know,
we boarded the train from that area. And I guess we probably sat in a segregated part of the
train. I don’t remember too much about buses, you know, city buses being a part of segregation
there but, as a child, but I guess you’re so naïve it all seems a part of just being a natural thing.
20 B 19
9
And then, like I said, when you’re older--and I guess my first experience of what I considered
real segregation are, was when my husband was in the Air Force. And it was in maybe about
’66, ’65, somewhere in that area, we went to Texas, Laredo, Texas. And it was our first time
ever being away from home, and, uh, they sent us to an apartment complex, uh, to apply for an
apartment. The military sent us. And when we got there, uh, the lady told us—and she was
about seventy years old—she said, “I’m sorry I don’t have a place for you to stay.” Well, we
told them, told her that the Air Force had sent us there and she said, “Well, I’m sorry. I don’t
have a place.” So, we left and went back to the Air Force base and we told them she didn’t have
a place for us to stay; and I guess we wanted them to give us a list of some other places to go. So
they said, “She almost always has a place.” So they telephoned and then they sent us back over
there. And when we went back, she made the comment that, “I have a place, but if I let you all
have this place, I do not tolerate cussing and getting drunk and fighting and that type of thing.”
And we looked at her, you know, and I said, “Well, I don’t like that either.” And, uh, I said,
“We didn’t grow up like that.” And, uh, I decided that woman did not want us there, [clears
throat] and, but we had no other choice, you know, but to live there. But I thought, “Well, if she
feels that way, she won’t have to worry about us. I mean, we’ll just mind our own business and
just live here.” Well, the apartment was right next to hers and for some reason or another she
just fell in love with us; and she became our mother away from home. And she was the first
cousin to President Johnson, at that time. So that was kind of [clears throat] neat, and the
apartment that we lived in was, uh, the apartment that James Stewart, Jimmy Stewart the actor,
had lived in back during World War I, I believe it was. So that was kind of neat and different.
But that was my first real experience which is coming head-on with, you know--this person is
20 B 19
10
going to deny you a place to live because of the color of your skin and because of stereotyping
of, of color, you know.
BRINSON: So that was an instance where you recognized discrimination. So, so many
people that I talk with tell me that they grew up in a segregated society, and they recognized that
that was just the way it was. There didn’t seem to be a way to challenge it until a particular point
in time, and that they lived within their community which was by and large their school which
very frequently functioned as the community center for the black . . .
JAMES: Exactly.
BRINSON: . . . population. Their church, their own little business district . . .
JAMES: Uh-huh, which was the West Fifth Street area and we, we were not allowed to go on
Fifth Street. I mean, we didn’t grow up in that end of town . . .
BRINSON: Your parents didn’t allow you, is that . . .?
JAMES: Right. Our parents did not allow us and that was a large community of black
people. And there was the H. L. Neblett Center, which is still there, and it’s called the H. L.
Neblett Community Center, uh, named after a doctor, a black doctor. And his wife organized
that, uh, which was an old tobacco warehouse and we used to go roller skating down there. And
that was the only place that we could go . . . well, the park. Sometimes we could go to the park,
but it was very rare because they had a lot of people that drank and cussed and, you know, they
would fight and they would have shootings and actual killings, you know, on West Fifth Street.
And it was a way of our parents protecting us from that type of environment. And even in the
neighborhood that I grew up in, there were people that would fight and they would get drunk and
really hurt, or try to hurt, each other. And I remember my mom and dad, they would say, “You
all have to come inside now.” They’d never let us stay outside. [laughing] We wanted to stay
20 B 19
11
outside and see what was going on, but they did not want us to be exposed. But they didn’t have
money enough for us to live anyplace else, you know, and we had no other choices but to live
there. And I remember some of the well- to-do people that my parents worked for, uh, my dad
worked for some doctors. My mom worked . . .
BRINSON: This was different from his construction . . .
JAMES: Right. I mean, because when they were bringing us up, after Dad and my mom got
married, uh, they started doing what is called domestic work. And they worked for some very,
very wealthy people here in Owensboro so we got kind of like, uh--what would you say? Nice
books, you know, they would send books, you know, nice story books and things. Nice toys,
you know, that their children no longer used or wanted, and even some of their children’s
clothes, you know, we got. And we were so happy with those types of things. And they would
say, “We don’t know how in the world that you were able to, or that you can bring your children
up, in this type of neighborhood, and they’re such well-mannered children.” But we didn’t say,
“Yeah” and . . . you know. We were taught to say, “Yes ma’am.” Black or white. “No,
ma’am.” “Yes, sir.” and “No, sir.” It did not matter whether you were black or white, but that
was considered good manners and . . .
BRINSON: I believe you told me when we talked on the phone that your . . .
END OF TAPE ONE, SIDE ONE
20 B 19
12
BEGIN TAPE ONE, SIDE TWO
JAMES: . . . in some instances, yes. In some instances, uh--there is a well-known family
here in Owensboro, uh, Flynns, and my dad worked for them and then my mother worked for
them. But she may have worked, you know, like maybe for one of the daughters of the family;
and then my, uh, dad may have worked, you know, doing what they called “heavy” housework.
Now I don’t think my mother worked for Dr. Wofolk but she worked for—Dr. Wofolk was a
eye, ear, nose and throat specialist, and that was wonderful because I had terrible earaches when
I was a child so, I mean, Dr. Wofolk took care of me. My mother worked for, uh, I guess what
you would call a family doctor at that time, Dr. Fred C. Reynolds, and he’s dead. Of course, Dr.
Wofolk is dead. Then the Field Packing House people, uh, that family that organized the Field
Packing House, which they have all kinds of bacon and hot dogs and all of that. And it’s since
been sold but they kept the name. Uh, my mother worked for them also. She also worked for
the Hagers--well, I guess Mrs. Fuqua was a part of the newspaper people that had the Messenger
and Inquirer . She worked for that family so, you know, it was through those—and it is so . . . I
guess only in America this could happen. Don’t you know that there are people—we haven’t
lived in this neighborhood but about two years, a little bit over two years, and it’s only in
America and through an act of God that this could happen. There are people that live on this
next street over here that knew my mother, and my mother helped to raise them, and worked in
their families and where else? I mean, here I am--my mother worked for them, and here I am a
black person living in this neighborhood. The Hagers lived back here. The bridge that goes over
from Third Street here in Owensboro, over to Indiana, the Carys--it’s called the Glover Cary
Bridge; they live right almost exactly behind us. And they knew my mother when I was just a
little baby, you know, growing up. And to live in a neighborhood like this--but I believe that
20 B 19
13
people should be able to live, to work, uh, to do anything that anybody else should do. I didn’t
feel that just because that the color of your skin—it had nothing to do with it. It had nothing to
do with it. Now, don’t get me wrong. I was exposed to name calling, you know, here in
Owensboro, but we would get upset and, you know, maybe go home and cry. Or someone
would pass on the street and call us nigger and that type of thing. But my parents had a way of
saying, “you know, those are the type of people that act a certain way, and your name is Daisy
James; it’s not nigger. And you don’t—it’s, you know, a nigger acts a certain way. You don’t
act that way, you know. And because someone calls you a name, it doesn’t, it doesn’t do
anything, you know, it doesn’t matter.”
BRINSON: Were there, uh, family or friends or, uh, in the black community whom you
recall were victimized in some way because of race?
JAMES: Oh, as it relates to . . . anything in particular. Let me think. I was trying to think of
how I got into, you know, positions that I did. Uh, I guess probably from just speaking out and
being level-headed in what I felt, um, not—to look at things from a persuasive standpoint,
reasoning with people, uh, why can’t this person have a job? Why can’t these people be able to
go to certain schools? Why can’t these people be able to live in certain neighborhoods? I guess
I was the first black apartment manager, uh, which it was an outside company. No one from
Owensboro gave me the opportunity. It was the Kentucky Limited partnership. I don’t know
how I was recommended for that job. Then again, it goes back to a former mayor here in
Owensboro; his name was Whiteman Taylor and, as a matter of fact, city hall is named after him.
Uh, very influential person and my dad worked for his, for Whiteman’s mother- in-law; he
worked for that family, let’s put it that way. And that was how, uh, I met Whiteman, and
Whiteman got me on at General Electric. That was my first quote real job.
20 B 19
14
BRINSON: And that would have been about when?
JAMES: Uh, that would have been in 1962-63, somewhere. Almost out of high school.
Right out of high school. And I worked there until my husband went into service, and my
husband was working there also.
BRINSON: Okay. So, did you know your husband growing up?
JAMES: Yes! Yes, I did. We went to the same church. My parents let—after my
grandmother got sick—she had a stroke—and she came to live with us, and lived in our home
and I was in the ninth grade when she died. I never will forget. They called me and said, “You
need to come home.” And we walked home and, uh . . . but, anyway, my grandmother, after she
died, my parents let us go to any church we wanted to. We went to, we went to the—we didn’t
go to the Seventh Day Adventist Church. We went to the Jehovah Witness; we went to
Pentecostal churches. My mother was a Methodist; my daddy was a Baptist so we went to the
Methodist Church, we went to the Baptist churches before we actually joined church, you know,
became Christians, and, uh, I chose Sweeny Street Baptist Church. That’s where I go to church
now and that’s where I met my husband. He sang in the junior choir there plus he went to the
same schools that I went to which was Dunbar School and also Western.
BRINSON: In your graduating class then—and that was 1960, did you say?
JAMES: Well, ’59, ’60.
BRINSON: Okay. How many students were there? I’m just trying to get a sense of the size
of the high school.
JAMES: Let me think. Somewhere around here I have my high school yearbooks [laughing]
if you can believe that, uh, or either they’re at Mother’s. I would say there were probably maybe
forty-five, fifty students. It wasn’t—that was a big class when you compare that this was a
20 B 19
15
school that went from seventh all the way to the twelfth grade, you know. So it was about
maybe fifty students or something like that, somewhere in that neighborhood that graduated in
my class.
BRINSON: In a number of Kentucky communities, um, I’ve talked to individuals who
attended all-black schools or maybe were teachers in all-black schools, and they tell me that even
now, you know, years after integration that these schools have reunions.
JAMES: They do.
BRINSON: And I wonder if that might be true for, for your school.
JAMES: True. But they more or less combine classes, you know, now; and there’s people
there that graduated years before we did, but they went to that same school. And every year in
July is when they have—it’s around the Fourth of July that they have the, well, they call it a
reunion. Western High School Reunion.
BRINSON: Do they hold it here in Owensboro?
JAMES: Yes, they do and individuals come from--I have classmates that live in California
and Connecticut, places like that, and they all come back.
BRINSON: Are any of the teachers still living and do they participate?
JAMES: Yes, there are some teachers that are still living. Um, um, Harry Fields is still
living, and I don’t know if he was from Owensboro or not, but I know that he was a teacher at
Western. Still very active. Sometimes I see him at the symphony because he went to some of
the symphony performances. Uh, who else? Oh, about a couple of or three weeks ago, we went
to a little community called Maceo and there was a church, there is a church up there—it was
one hundred twenty-nine--twenty-seven; one hundred twenty-seven; one hundred twenty nine
years old--and they had a church anniversary and our church was invited to go. And I saw one of
20 B 19
16
the teachers that taught me at Paul Lawrence Dunbar School. Her name is Theodora Jackson
Smith, and she lives out in the Pleasant Ridge area. And she remembered me, and I was so
thrilled to see her. I had not seen her forever. So she was very, very . . .
BRINSON: That’s neat.
JAMES: It was. It really was. She had someone with her that assisted her and she was on a
walker. But I remember her.
BRINSON: And eventually the, the crowd is going to get smaller and smaller . . .
JAMES: Oh, it does because . . .
BRINSON: . . . in time, as people begin to die off.
JAMES: I’ve had several classmates to, to die, uh, you know, for, you know, illnesses or
things of that . . . nothing violent, you know. It was just different illnesses and things like that.
BRINSON: Well, that—talking about violence . . . listen to the thunder . . .
JAMES: I know.
BRINSON: . . . makes me think—in some of the Kentucky history books about Owensboro
you read about episodes of racial violence, and I think the most recent one actually was like in
1938 before you were born where there was a . . .
JAMES: A hanging.
BRINSON: . . . a hanging.
JAMES: My mother, my mother and father told me about that. They remembered that, and
my mother probably still remembers that.
BRINSON: A man who was actually taken out of jail . . .
JAMES: And hanged.
20 B 19
17
BRINSON: . . . against the protests of the sheriff, and I think the sheriff lost his life in all of
that, and then, obviously, so did the man. They hung him.
JAMES: Right. They hung him at the courthouse Mom and Dad said. And it was, it was a
racially motivated thing. Supposedly, he had—I don’t know if he raped, or was accused of
raping . . .
BRINSON: He was accused.
JAMES: . . . accused of raping a white woman and they hung him and it was the last public
hanging, I believe, in the United States.
BRINSON: That’s . . . I’ve read that, too.
JAMES: Uh-hmm.
BRINSON: Uh, were—why in Owensboro though? Was that sort of racial violence here in
some way or was it just that it was everywhere?
JAMES: I guess it was everywhere and it was so strange that, you know, that--maybe it was
here in Owensboro. I guess if you would say the South; Kentucky would be probably the
northern most state, uh, of the South, and I think, if history serves me well, it was like a division.
Kentucky was divided between the North and the South as it related to the Civil War because
part of Kentucky was, was Confederate and—as a matter of fact, there may be a Confederate
soldier that’s a statue on the courthouse lawn here in Owensboro.
BRINSON: Uh, I’ve heard Governor Patton talk about the history of the Civil War and he
always says, you know, talks about, just as you’re saying, that there were both supporters for the
Union and supporters for the Confederacy. And he says after the war, though, the South—
Kentucky went with the South. It sort of cast its lot with the region, and that that, in his mind
20 B 19
18
anyway, meant that the state didn’t progress in some ways as well as it should have. Uh, I
wonder, though, Daisy, what happened to you when you finished high school?
JAMES: When I finished high school? I received a scholastic scholarship to Kentucky State,
which was an all-black college, and, uh, at that time, and it was a four-year scholarship. And I
could go and do anything I wanted, you know. But my dad was ill and with my mother not
having very much education, little or no education--I think my dad may have had a ninth grade
education but . . . gosh, Daddy was smart to have only had a ninth grade education, you know.
Uh, but anyway, Mother couldn’t read or write, and I just thought with Daddy being sick and,
you know, Mother just could not handle it, you know. And so I turned down the scholarship to
stay here, you know. And then later, uh, Mrs. Brannon, who was one of the people that my dad
worked for, she thought that I needed to go to school. I mean, I needed to go to college, so she
took me to Brescia College, took me in and introduced me to the nuns and [laughing] and says,
“I want her to go to school here’, and registered me into college, and I started taking some
classes there. And I first wanted to be, uh, elementary school teacher, uh, working with
exceptional children, you know, very, very bright children. And I took a lot of the psychology
for exceptional children and a lot of those courses and then, later on, I decided—I got married
and everything was just like, oh, I think it rearranged my priorities. And I thought, I can’t work
and be married and go to school at the same time, and I was just kind of really feeling at that
time, didn’t realize—stress was not the common word that we use now so loosely. But I just felt
I couldn’t handle everything so I dropped out of school. Then, later on, I decided that I would go
back to school but it was years later, you know. And . . .
BRINSON: And then what did you study when you went back?
20 B 19
19
JAMES: I decided that it was—there was such a deficiency among black people about
business. They didn’t and they still don’t—and especially if they’re older people—they don’t
know business, you know. I mean they don’t know about leases, you know, if you rent a place
and you sign your name on something what that really means, you know, what you’re actually
committing to. Uh, they just did not know business, and everything has to be run like a business.
I mean, business is there. So I chose to study business, so I lack nine hours of having my degree
in business administration, so that’s my dream one day is to go back and finish that.
BRINSON: You will.
JAMES: And, uh, the reason why I didn’t finish was I became the primary caregiver of my
sister who had lupus for about fifteen years, and there were periods of time when she was really,
really bad. And, uh, my dad was very ill with diabetes—as a matter of fact, he died from
complications from diabetes—and Mother just, she just could not handle everything. She took
care of Dad the best she could. I took care of the major things that needed to be taken care of.
BRINSON: [thunder] And you work for the Health Department now I believe.
JAMES: I do. I do.
BRINSON: How did that come about?
JAMES: Uh, my job at the Health Department—I first worked for a community action
agency. And when I worked for the community action agency they, uh, gave me the assigned
duty as the Equal Opportunity Officer. So that meant that I monitored all of the affirmative
action, uh, any grievances that dealt with unequal treatment of employees and keeping the
agency straight and in line as far—and that, that was something that I thought was quite unique.
Me, doing that? But I was brave enough to do it, but I was the Equal Opportunity Officer there.
And, uh, this was at ( ) Community Services, plus I also was the area services coordinator for a
20 B 19
20
seven-county area, and I coordinated staff and services for those persons aged sixty and over.
So, for the senior citizens, and those services ranged from outreach services to—I even had the
senior employment program too. I think they refer to it now as Green Thumb and Title V, and
you know, all these government titles, and I coordinated that to where we gave older workers an
opportunity to work. And I was the 504 handicap coordinator, but they’ve got a different name
for that, too, now.
BRINSON: Right. I want to go back to the early sixties in Owensboro because, um, I know
that primarily out of the local NAACP chapter there were some sit- ins, some demonstrations.
Um, I don’t know that they got a lot publicity or a lot of attention.
JAMES: Uh-hmm.
BRINSON: Do you have any recollection of those at all? Did you know anybody who
participated or . . . ?
JAMES: I, I was a member once of the NAACP and I can remember maybe not only being a
member of the NAACP, but also a part of what at one time was called the Mayor’s Human
Relations Commission. I was on that. And I can remember cases where that there was police
brutality, or accusations of police brutality, uh, that was inflicted upon blacks. And I can
remember demanding that we meet with the police chief, and going in and—when I say
demanding, not in a demonstration-type thing but calling and saying, “We’ve got to meet. We
cannot tolerate this.” You know. “We’ve got to sit down and talk. These officers need to be
disciplined or there needs to be a change.” And this type of thing. And not only saying, there
has to be a solution. We had some options that we wanted them to explore, such as sensitivity
training and that type of thing. And we were actually involved in things like that.
BRINSON: That would have been about what time period, do you recall?
20 B 19
21
JAMES: That would have had to have been maybe in the seventies, somewhere in that area.
BRINSON: Okay.
JAMES: And we even . . .
BRINSON: Go ahead.
JAMES: We even met and talked about issues of the park, uh, which was the black park, and
issues that came out of that even though it was a black, primarily black park, but it was run by
the city. Uh, there was a lot of inappropriate behavior that was going on in the park by adults,
you know, drinking and gambling and this type of thing. There were small children that played
in that park, and it was not right for those children to have to be exposed to that. And we called
for a meeting one time with city officials, the mayor and those individuals. We sat down and
made some changes there, told them they had to get rid of that type of thing in the park. What
were the rules of the city parks? Quote. They said, “The parks closed at ten-o’clock; they did
not allow drinking in the parks.” My question to them, and I mean I sat up on the edge of my
chair and asked them, “Well, why do we tolerate this type of action in the black park, you know,
or the park where the blacks go? Those children, those little children, they do not need to be
exposed to that. If you don’t allow drinking and gambling and that type of thing in the other
parks, and if those other parks close at ten o’clock, that park should close at ten o’clock.” So it
was those types of approaches behind closed doors, you know, where we would get together and
get in and we would hammer out these things, you know. That was my way and my solution. I
mean, it wasn’t, it wasn’t okay just because it was a black park, you know, to let these people do
this thing because it was not, quote, their park. It was a park in a black community that was paid
for by taxpayers’ dollars. There were little children that were growing up in that neighborhood.
They did not have the right—they should not have been exposed to that.
20 B 19
22
BRINSON: Uh . . .
JAMES: That’s where? I came from and the kind of, the ways that I . . .
BRINSON: Very important question. I’m going to ask you about the period when you were
a member of the NAACP here and a little bit about the NAACP. If you can recall approximately
how many members were there? How many came to meetings or . . . ?
JAMES: Oh, at one time I believe they had anywhere from, oh gosh, maybe seventy to
seventy-five members. It was a large group because it was the only black group like that where
you paid a membership.
BRINSON: Was there a youth chapter?
JAMES: Yes, they had a youth chapter also. I did not participate in that part. I participated
in the adult part of it.
BRINSON: Can, can you think about, uh, the members at that point. Would you say there
were more men than women, more women than men, maybe an equal balance?
JAMES: If I think about it, there may have been slightly more women. Women seem to be
more active as it relates to leadership, uh, membership drives, you know, that type of thing.
They were the ones that went out and, you know, encouraged individuals to become members.
Uh, I remember there was a group that was formed, and I believe they still have it. Oh gosh, I
can’t think of the name of it, but it’s where that, they go out and solicit from, I guess, businesses
here in Owensboro. And they’ve set up a scholarship fund and it’s where that they give a
scholarship away every year to . . . oh, I’m trying to think. I can’t remember the name of the
group, but it’s a part of the NAACP; and it’s where they encourage young people to go on to
school and, by doing that, they give them scholarships.
20 B 19
23
BRINSON: When you look at the leadership of the NAACP, have there been women who
were an officer?
JAMES: President of NAACP? Yes, there was some women that have been. There have
been men, uh, that have been president. Ministers, black ministers that have been president.
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE B
20 B 19
24
BEGIN TAPE TWO, SIDE ONE
BRINSON: I wonder particularly . . . again, back during the time, both locally and nationally,
of the sit- ins and Martin Luther King’s march on Washington and whatnot, were the local
ministers involved in any of that that you’re aware of?
JAMES: I could not—I’m sure that they were, but I could not give you anything in particular
that, you know, any one particular minister or ministers that may have participated in that. Uh . .
BRINSON: Okay. In 1968 I understand that there was a, a race riot here, that . . . around an
ice cream store, uh, and that’s, that’s all I know about that. Do you recall anything as to why that
happened or . . .?
JAMES: Uh, at that time we, we lived in Texas, but we did hear about it, as a matter of fact.
It was on the news and that was during the time also that they had the big Democratic National
Convention and things were going on in Chicago at that time. And we were reading and hearing
everything that was going on. And, of course, our families kept us informed of what was going
on, but we were not actually living in Owensboro at that—that was during the time that we were
living in Texas, in ’68.
BRINSON: Okay. Who were your civil rights heroes in the sixties?
JAMES: Ooh. I loved, uh, Julian Bond, um, Andrew Young, uh, those people. And prior to
that, uh, of course, everybody—I mean he just made you feel wonderful and it was kind of based
on the way I grew up, of course, Martin Luther King. The other thing, the other person that
was—of course, the Kennedys, Bobby Kennedy and John F. Kennedy. I mean, these were all
people that said, “Hey,” you know, “we need to recognize these individuals. There should not
be any difference.” You know. Those were some of my civil rights heroes. The Kennedys and
Martin Luther King, Jr. and those individuals.
20 B 19
25
BRINSON: Okay. So you, you were out of the state and then when did you actually return to
Owensboro?
JAMES: In 1970.
BRINSON: Okay.
JAMES: We came back in 1970, ’70, ’71, somewhere in that area.
BRINSON: Um, in, in the time that you came back, did you notice any differences in the
community in terms of race relations from when you’d left?
JAMES: No. That was so disappointing because we thought that things would have changed.
But maybe it took us going away in order to come back to see that things had not changed, you
know, as it related to acceptance of black people and appointments of black people . . . is it
getting wild out there? Is that just . . . I think it’s just a car. [thunder]
BRINSON: It is lightning . . . yeah, it is . . . lightning and thunder but . . .
JAMES: Just need to make sure if we need to fly to the coop, we’ll, we’ll go. [laughing]
But, anyway, uh, when, when I came back, I thought this is just, you know--nothing’s changed
and it was so disappointing. And I think during that time was when I decided that I need to
become involved, you know. I need to, to get involved and there’s got to be somebody out there,
or individuals out there that will listen to reason and say, you know, “This is what needs to be
done.” You know. You know, why should we make a difference, you know. So . . .
BRINSON: And how did you decide to do that? You joined the NAACP?
JAMES: Well, yes, and then I guess through some channels and talking to people that I felt
had some influence and that would listen. And that’s how I became involved. I need to check
the shutter. [interruption]
20 B 19
26
BRINSON: Uh, so you, you shared some examples of how you, uh, were a very skillful
negotiator, I imagine, on some of these issues, both through the NAACP and the Commission on
Human Relations. Uh, were there any other ways that you sought to address these issues?
JAMES: Um, that was when I guess I decided that I needed to run for public office and . . .
which I, which I did. I guess I was the first black, uh, first black female, first black period, to run
for city commission, and there were some very, very strong candidates. It was more women than
ever before in the history of Owensboro that ran. And I survived the May primary and made the
cut and I almost won. I missed the last position by 500 votes. And, uh, that was in 1991 and, uh,
that somewhat paved the way, um, because it let other blacks know that they could run and make
a difference. Oh, the light’s going to go out.
BRINSON: I think it’s important that we enter into the transcript that we’re sitting here in a,
a very bad storm the day after the tornadoes in Oklahoma, and there is indeed a tornado warning
up in western Kentucky.
JAMES: Yes.
BRINSON: So. Otherwise, anyone who is reading the transcript will wonder what in the
world we’re talking about.
JAMES: Yes, and all of the noise. But I ran for city commission and then after I lost,
evidently someone felt, or they felt that I had made quite an impact, and they felt that I needed to
be in a position where that I could influence and even get the experience to run again. But not
the next time, you know, because they said if you run twice—these were seasoned people—that
if you run twice, and you know, if you lose the second time, you should forget it, you know, or
you might as well forget it, that type of thing. But anyway, that was when I was appointed as the
first black to the powerful Utility Commission here, with assets in excess of five hundred million
20 B 19
27
dollars, and I served a record thirteen years on that commission. Very, very influential
commission and they had no blacks employed, and uh, before I left there we had made some
dramatic changes in trying to get minorities hired as, in meaningful positions. I think they may
have had like janitors that were older people that swept the floors and that type of thing, you
know. Probably were not even under civil service—these were civil service positions, you
know. Very, very good paying jobs, but no blacks. And no one could pass the test. That was
what was the story. Nobody could pass the test. If we could get them here, they could pass the
test, there’s got to be—I said we’ve got to have, I mean, we can get you somebody. So we
formed a coalition which was very, very, uh, it was a very good group. Schoolteachers, uh—we
had to have those educators because there were black teachers in the Owensboro school system,
and we wanted those people on there and some other community leaders that were black. And
we sent them out to recruit—I mean that was one of my goals was to get some blacks on it,
Owensboro Municipal Utilities. And we sent them out to go and find some people to take these
tests. Well, we had some that took tests, made a hundred on it, still did not get positions. Well,
they had to answer to me after that because—I believe they became disenchanted because they
just kind of, you know, “They don’t want us and they’re not going to hire us,” you know. And I
really felt bad about that, but what we ended up doing was—they said there were others that—
how did they have it? Said that they, there were others that were before them because they
made like a hundred and three point five and—I said, “How could that be, you know? How
could they make more than a hundred?” But it had something to do with points—if you were in
the military and if you made a hundred . . .
BRINSON: Right. You get extra points.
JAMES: You get extra points, and I thought this is not a level playing field, you know.
20 B 19
28
BRINSON: I remember when that worked against women, uh, as well as minorities seeking
jobs . . .
JAMES: Right.
BRINSON: . . . because of those extra points.
JAMES: Right. And my, my speech was not just for minorities but also for women to be
placed in nontraditional roles with Owensboro Municipal Utilities because they had—and I guess
the first thing that we did that was different was . . . [interruption]
BRINSON: Excuse me. We’re being a little distracted here with the weather a little bit, too.
So we were talking about the Public Utility Commission and your efforts to open up
nontraditional jobs for . . .
JAMES: Women
BRINSON: . . . women and minorities.
JAMES: Exactly. The first thing, I guess the first step was to go through all of the job
descriptions and change them from, rather than lineman to line technicians. You know, all of the
job descriptions. This was my pushing, you know, where they cannot be gender, you know.
They have to be across the board, I mean, where it could be anybody. Then, that was one of the
first steps, and then the second step was, after we had done everything that we possibly could,
uh, locally I said, “There’s got to be a way. There has got to be a way.” So they came up with
the idea—I said, “You all bring me something. Bring me something. Let’s put some proposals
on the table. We’ve got to do this. We’ve got to get some minorities on.” So, uh, what we
ended up doing was, they, we hired a technician—not a technician, a consulting firm out of
Chicago because they laid it on the Civil Service Commission. They said, “The civil service
commission,’ uh, ‘says this is the way the testing has to be done.” And we were not sure. I
20 B 19
29
didn’t see the test. We didn’t know if the tests were validated tests, you know, if the tests were
job-related, that type of thing. We wanted an outside company to come in and, and tell us how to
get around the civil service thing. And I think we paid—we okayed up to five thousand dollars
to bring in consultants. They came in and they went through, uh, this with us. And they came up
with the idea of what they called banning, meaning that they would go through the first group,
and they would go down to the second group and even down to a third group until they found a
female or a minority in that group. Well, it, it did work for a little while. And then we asked
them if they would do special testing, but we knew that we couldn’t do the special testing, you
know, like prep tests where they would come in and—this is what to expect: we’re going to have
positions for meter readers, you know. This is how you read a meter, you know, and this is what
we’re going to be looking for and that kind of thing. But we could not have these tests and could
not advertise these tests and say, “These are only for women” or, “These are only for minorities”
because that wasn’t right either. So when the announcements went out, they mainly went out—
there were some white males that came, but for the most part, you know, it was done mainly
through the black churches in announcements. And then we made them even send out for every
job, uh, that was—this is recent, though, and I still get these—uh, it was where they send and
they tell us what positions were available and . . . so that we can the word out, you know, that
these positions are available and, uh, try to get people in there. So those were some of the things
that we tried.
BRINSON: Did you ever run for office again?
JAMES: No, but I’m going to. But I couldn’t, uh, again--and there’s a lot of people that still
remember. They say, “When are you going to run again?” You know. “We, we voted for you.”
I mean, people will walk up even now and say that, but . . .
20 B 19
30
BRINSON: Do you have a specific office and . . ?.
JAMES: Oh, if I run again, I’m not going to run for city commission. I’m running for mayor.
[laughter] I’m going to the top.
BRINSON: Okay.
JAMES: So, I mean, you know, you’ve got to move up. We opened up the door. We have,
right now we have a black female city commissioner. I believe she’s in her second term. And
prior to that it was, uh, a minister, a black minister here in Owensboro. He was the first black
elected and he actually got in. And so we’ve accomplished that, but we’ve never had a black
mayor nor have we had a female mayor so it’s about time. Even Henderson, Kentucky, which is
a smaller community, they have a female mayor. So it’s time, it’s Owensboro’s time. I haven’t
publicized that too much. I don’t want to give anybody else any ideas. But my hands are tied
now because I work for the health department. We’re under the state through, oh, it’s under the
state merit system and you got all these rules and things about—even though it’s a nonpartisan
thing, rather than the health department having to make a decision on partisan politics they just
go with a blanket statement that they prefer that we don’t get involved. So it’s about time for me
to, uh, move on to a second career so I think, you know . . .
BRINSON: Maybe as mayor.
JAMES: Yes. [laughing]
BRINSON: Uh, do you have children?
JAMES: No, no children.
BRINSON: I want to tell you what I’m finding as I interview primarily women right now
and, and have you react to it because, interestingly enough, most of the women that I’m
interviewing, who’ve been active either out front or behind the scenes even, do not have
20 B 19
31
children. And even back in the fifties and the sixties . . . some of them were newly married, they
were young, they or they stayed single throughout their life . . .
JAMES: That’s interesting.
BRINSON: . . . but there were no children. And as I think about that, it’s surprising to me a
little bit. But I guess it makes sense that it’s the women who may have a husband, um, to pay
some attention to, but, uh, that’s not as demanding as having small children to have to take care
of; and, therefore, they’ve had maybe the time, or they’ve found the time in a way they couldn’t
with small children or even larger children, you know, to be as involved.
JAMES: You know, perhaps, you may be right about that. I had no idea but, you know, my
husband is very supportive, uh, of me. And I remember when I received the Humanitarianism
Award, and that is a very prestigious award that is given to people that have gotten out there on
the front lines and look at what is right, you know, for everybody . . .
BRINSON: Is that a local award here in Owensboro?
JAMES: Yes, uh-hmm. I have that plaque downstairs. It’s a very nice plaque. But, anyway,
I remember thanking my husband because he was there and saying to him that he was the wind
beneath my wings because, I mean, he always stood in the background and just let me go. And,
uh, he has been probably as much a part—I mean, he wasn’t there saying, “Go, Daisy, go! Go,
Daisy, go!” but by allowing me to spread my wings, you know, and get out there and to get
involved, you know. And there have been times I would just really get so wrapped up in projects
or something was going on and I would have all these night meetings. And sometimes it would
be a whole week of night meetings, you know, just night after night. And just working and
coming in and getting dinner and then heading out, you know, and just hammering out until
about ten o’clock at night. Those were long days and he would say, “Now, Daisy, I think you
20 B 19
32
need to slow down a little bit.” You know. Telling me I was getting a little bit too much
involved, you know. Not saying, “Drop it” but, “Just draw back a little bit, take a breath.”
BRINSON: Take care of yourself.
JAMES: Right. Because once--if I make a commitment, if I tell you I’m going to do
something, I’m going to do it or I’m going to die trying, you know. Um, I believe if I tell you
something, you’re expecting that out of me and I’m going to do it.
BRINSON: Well, uh, I still have a number of other women yet to interview so I don’t know
how accurate this is going to turn out to be, but it’s just been very interesting to me, you know,
as I listen to women tell their stories that this is the case for most of them. But . . .
JAMES: It’s very interesting.
BRINSON: Well, is there anything else you’d like to share about this whole topic that we’ve
been talking about tonight to—I guess in a very broad sense, how would you evaluate the
movement during the fifties and the sixties? Did we succeed? Do we still have a way to go?
JAMES: I think we succeeded in some areas, but we still have a way to go. We still have a
way to go. We’re just not there yet. We have come a long way but, in my opinion, we still have
quite a way to go, and when, when we arrive—I don’t think we would even have to sit and talk
about, you know, black and white. It will be Daisy James; it will be, uh, Betsy. And that’s,
that’s my dream, you know, that—and I remember, I used to get so upset--and they would do
newspaper articles about different stories on things we were doing in the community. And I
hated it when they called me a black leader, you know. I hated that. Or if I--if you came into
town and somebody said, “Oh, have you met Daisy James? She’s that black lady that . . .” you
know? I hated that. I hated that because I felt that—but, I mean, I didn’t lose it over it, but I
always felt in my heart when are we ever going to say a community leader--not a black
20 B 19
33
community leader, but a community leader--made this statement or this quote. Or, “Do you
know Daisy James? She works for the Green River District Health Department.” Or, “She lives
out on Wesleyan Place.” You know. That type of thing. When we do that, that’s when we’ve
arrived. That is when we’ve arrived is when we look at people and we don’t have to tag them by
race. I think we have arrived when we reach that point.
BRINSON: Okay. Thank you very much.
JAMES: I’ve enjoyed talking to you.
BRINSON: I’ve enjoyed . . .
END OF INTERVIEW