- 7936 -

would not "be an exaggeration to say that Mr. Carneson became somewhat excited ? — Nee.

Is it correct that there were a number of books which had just been returned to Mr. Carneson from a pre-vious search ? — Ek het nie die boeke op daardie geleent-heid teruggegee nie, ek het net daarop beslag gele, maar ek het dieselfde dag dit aan hom teruggegee, nog by sy huis.

Butisn't it correct, books which had previously been taken from him were still tied up in parcels or in files after having only just been returned to him ?— Nee,

die boeke was in rakke en op verskillende plekke in die huis gewees, dit was nie in bondels vasgevind nie.

Yes, but you knew perfectly well that these were books, or some of them were books that had recently been returned to him by the police ? — Ek het nie geweet by daar-die tyd nie.

Oh, didn't you? Didn't Mr. Carneson tell you that ? — Ja, hy het.

And notwithstanding that you took them again ? — Ja.fl

And you took a short story that he had written ? — Ja.l

And you endeavoured to take his wizeLess set ? — Yes. But Mr. Carneson, I won't say resisted you, but

suggested to you that you would be overstepping your rights if you did so, because it wasn't included in your warrant ? — Ja.

Don't you think that Mr. Carneson had some reason for becoming excited on this occasion Mr. Vlok ? — Ek sou so veronderstel.

Don't you think he may have felt that he was under-going persecution at the hands of the Security Branch of

- 7937 -

the Police ? — Nee, ek sal nie dit se nie. Don't you think he may have had reason for feeling

that ? — Ek het hom al die kanse gegee, ons het iemand anders gekry om te kyk na die draadloos.

I don't want to hear what you gave him. I want your answer to my question, don't you think that he may have had some reason for feeling that ? — Dit is moontlik, ek weet nie wat hy voel nie.

What did you want his wireless set for ? — Ek was onder die ondruk dat dit 'n sender is.

Oh, were you. ? — Yes. Did you investigate the matter further ? — Ja, ek

het. Did you rush away and get a further warrant to

seize the set ? — Nee. What did you do, how did you investigate the matter

further ? — Ek het 'n tegniese persoon geskakel en hy het die stel kom ondersoek.

And it turned out to he an ordinary receiver ? — Ja,

The point I really want to get from you, Mr. Vlok, and I think I have got it is this, that Mr. Carneson was in a considerable state of excitement at the time he used the words which you have now described to us ? — Hy was opge-wonde, ja.

Very excited ? — Baie, ja. And it was not surprising to you that he was thus

excited ? — Wei, enige persoon word opgewonde. (No further questions) MR. SLOVO: NO QUESTIONS: NO RE-EXAMINATION:

- 7938 -

EDWARD MOTHABENG, duly sworn, (Interpreter J. Mkuhlane) (P.P.: MR. VAN PER WALT) CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. COAKER:

MothaTseng, what is your language ? — Sesotho. Is that the language you ordinarily speak ? — Yes. And do you speak Zulu ? — No, I have never been to

Zululand. Can you speak Xosa ?— Yes, I speak Xosa with the

Xosas, Do you consider yourself to be an expert in Xosa

? — No, I speak Xosa but I would not consider myself an ex-pert in the language.

Are there some things that people say in Xosa that you may have difficulty in following ? — No.

Then although you don't speak the language, you understand it, is that what you say ? — Yes.

And in English, what is your level ofattainment in the English language ? — Std. VI.

When did you leave school ? — 1936. Is this the only meeting, this meeting on 30th

January, 1955, at which you have ever made notes ? — No, it is not the only meeting.

Were you at one time attached to the Security Branch ? — Yes.

For how long ? — No, I was not really a member of the Security Branch.

Why did you say you were ? — I did not understand well.

I take it you'll agree that at a meeting it is im-possible to take down every word that the speaker says ? — Yes, you just note down important words,

You leave out the more unimportant words do you ? — Yes.

- 7939 -

And you sometimes leave out whole sentences as well ? — No, not so.

So you get down a part of every sentence do you ? — Yes, when a speaker uses important words.

Do you take down every sentence used hy the speaker, or do you not ? — Yes,

Leaving out those words which you regard as unimpor-tant ? — Yes. That is according to my instructions, I was told not to note down unimportant words.

And were you told what was important ? — Yes, some-thing that speaks ill about the Government.

Anything that speaks ill about the Government is important ? — Yes.

And were you told that any mention of violence was important ? — No, I wouldn't say that was important, that is left to the Government to decide whether it is or not.

I don't follow you ? — I say if a word like violence is used, it is not for me to decide whether it is important or not important; it is for the Government. I just write down.

And how would you decide whether to write it down or to leave it out ? — It was said that where it is ̂>oken about boycott and the Government, must write down those things.

Were you told to take down anything that had to do with communism ? — Yes.

Were you told to take down anything that had to do with peacefulness and passiveness ? — No, I was not told anything about peaceful matters, I was told about things that pertain to fighting.

Anything that pertains to peaceful methods and passiveness you would leave out ? — Yes, those are useless.

Quite so. Useless for your purpose, as that it ? —

- 7940 -

Yes.

Can you yourself always understand what you write down in your notes ? — Yes, what I have written down I understand.

I would be grateful if you would look at your notes of the speech of W. Mini. Towards the end of it you will find that you have a note which starts: "They will all be shifted ?-- Yes.

Now, tell me, does your note read like this: "They will all be shifted 1953 A.N.C. have certain amendments that we must all be assembled at this country perhaps some of you have heard of 1910 when the white people have assem-bled." Is that correct so far ?— No, you did not put it the way we are putting it.

Well, will you read it please. Start from"they will all be shifted." ? — (Witness reads through notes.)

Don't read it through and study the thing, just read ' t

it out, see what it means ? — (Still no reply) Will you read it aloud please, how long have I got

to wait for you ? — I have not found the placeyet. Well, give me your notes please, and I will find it

for you. (Handed to Mr. Coaker.) ? — Did you ask me to read from there?

I want you to read from the sentence "They will all be shifted, 1953, A.N.C " and so on?-- "They will all be shifted. 1953 A.N.C. had certain amendments that we must all be assembled at this country. Perhaps some of you have heard of 1910 when the white people have assembled. The Dutch people were called by the Englishmen that they must have promise that they will be friends and the Dutch people will be made foremen. We must all be united and when we get our holidays we must go and see our original people and have

- 7941 -

decisions with them about this treatment. In next month we'll expecting a big trouble. What happened in Kenya will never be happened in this country. They always say "Jou moet slaan die kaffer voor hy slaan jou."

Now, just tell me what you understand by"1953 A.N.C. had certain amendments that we must all be assembled at this country" ? —

Do you understand what the speaker was talking about ? — Yes.

Well, what was he saying ? — He said they should meet in 1953 in this country.

Who should meet ? — They. Did he then say "Perhaps some of you have heard of

1910 when the white people had assembled." ? — Yes. And did he go on and say "The Dutch people were

called by the Englishmen that they must have promise that they will be friends, and the Dutch people will be made fore-men." ? — Yes.

What was he saying, what was he trying to convey, put it in your own language ? — He was trying to say that English people wanted the Dutch people to come to them so that they could make them foreman.«

Make them foremen, in factories, and so on, do you mean ? — No, I cannot say where. I just took down what he said.

And then put it into your own brand of English ? — Yes.

So you contend that the speaker was saying that the Dutch people were called by the English so that they would promise to be friends in order that they might be made fore-men, is that it? Is that what the speaker said and what you understood him to say ? — Yes, I wrote it down the way he put

- 7942 -

it, I do not know how he said it. You don't remember any more what he meant, do you

? — No, I just wrote down. And apart from your notes, you can't remember anything

about what he said ? — This was in 1955, I can now not remem-"ber.

We have had much older speeches than 1955, but is that right. You can't remember what Xosa words he used ? — The words he used are the ones I have written down.

May I suggest to you that that is impossible, that what you have written down here cannot be a correct transla-tion of exactly what he said ? — You were not there, I was present. As far as he spoke, as he spoke I wrote it down.

Will you repeat that answer please ? — I say you cannot find fault with these words because you were not pre-sent, I was present and I am the person who wrote down what he said.

It is as simple as that is it. Well, write out for me in Xosa what he said in regard to that sentence, when he the speaker said the Dutch people were called by the English-men that they will be friends and the Dutch people will be made foremen ? — I +Mnk you heard, I said I could speak Xosa but I did not say that I can write Xosa,

You can't write Xosa ? — I write my language. Yes, but not Xosa ? — But not Xosa. Do you dispute that the words you have got there in

English make nonsense ? — You say so, I'm not saying so. Do you dispute it is my question ? — I say the words

I have written down here are the words that the speaker used, now it is for you to make out whether they make sense or not.

No, Constable,.it is for you to make out, amongst others, will you please tell me what you understand by these

- 7943 -

words ? — BY THE COURT; I wonder, Mr. Coaker, whether you ought to ask the witness to explain what he understands. He says he wrote down what the speaker said, and it is for somebody else to decide whether thatis nonsense or not. BY MR. COAKER: Well, I can't extract from him an answer as to whether he thinks itJs nonsense or whether he doesn't think it is nonsense. BY THE COURT: Well, is it the witness' function to say so. If he says that he wrote down what was said, then it is rather the function of the Court to decide whether it is possible the speaker could have said such a thing. BY MR. COAKER: I respectfully differ, Your Worship, because I am entitled to put to the witness, or to ask the witness whether he remembers the speaker having spoken nonsense at any stage, but before I can put that, I've got to extract from him whether he thinks it is nonsensical or otherwise. So far he has declined to answer that question. BY THE COURT: Yes, but he has been asked to explain what is said there, and he has tried to explain. BY MR. COAKER: Yes, by repeating the words. BY THE COURT: And apparently he doesn't consider it to be nonsense. BY MR. COAKER: Well, will Your Worship allow me to put it him once again, and we will try and be satisfied with what-ever his answer may be. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. COAKER CONTD.:

When you read this sentence that you have written down, that is the one I have read to you a numberof times, when you read it yourself, do you understand it to make sense or to make nonsense ? — If the speaker puts it in a nonsensi-cal manner, then it stands as such.

I wish you'd answer my question, Constable. When you read thc.t sentence to you does it make sense or nonsense ? — No, it does not make nonsense to me.

You understand it, do you ? — I do. (No further questions) MR. SLOVO: NO QUESTIONS: NO RE-EXAMINATION;

WYNAND JACOBUS WP""ELS, duly sworn, EXAMINED BY P.P. (MR. VAN NIEKERK)

You are a detective sergeant, S.A.Police, stationed at Vereeniging ? — Yes.

Do you know a person Joseph Molefe ? — Yes. Can you identify him ? — Yes. Please do so ? — (Witness leaves "box and identifies

Accused No. 43.) What do you know about that person ? — I know that

Joseph Molefe is a member of the African National Congress, and that he was acting as the secretary of the African National Congress at Evaton.

How do you know that ? — At meetings of the African National Congress he was introduced, he was acting as sec retary by the chairman,

What do youmean he was acting as secretary ? — When speakers at the meeting were introduced to the public, the persons who attended the meeting, he introduced them, and that is always the duty of the secretary. BY THE COURT: Do you mean to say that he performed the func tions of the secretary at the meeting ? — That is what I mean. EXAMINATION BY P.P. CONTD. :

And you say he is a member of the African National Congress ? — Yes.

- 7945 -

How do you know that ? — During the bus boycott at Evaton I asked him what the African National Congress has

/

got to do with the "boycott, and I asked him "You are a mem-ber of the African National Congress?" and he admitted he is a member of the African National Congress.

Do you know anybody else by that name of Molefe who is active in the Svaton district ? — No.

In African National Congress matters ? — No. Do you know Suliman Mohamed Nathie ? — Yes. Can you identify him .?— Yes. (Witness leaves box

and identifies Accused No. 50.) What do you know about this person ? — I know that

Suliman Nathie is the chairman of the Transvaal Indian Con-gress at Evaton.

How do you know that ? — He was introduced at Afri-can National Congress meetings, as the chairman of the Trans vaal Indian Congress Evaton branch.

Did he speak at those meetings ? — Yes. Do you know anything about the Evaton People's

Transport Council ? — Yes, he attended meetings and addres-sed meetings of the Evaton People's Transport Council.

Do you know any other person by that name who had taken part in the activities of the Transvaal Indian Con-gress or the African National Congress, or the Evaton People's Transport Council ? — No.

Do you know Gert Sibande ? — Yes. Can you identify him ? — Yes. (Witness leaves box

and identifies Accused No. 71.) What do you know about this person ? — I know that

he is a member of the African National Congress. This he admitted to me. That is all I know about him.

Do you know whether he held any executive position

- 7946 -

?— He told me that he was serving on the Executive Committee of the African National Congress, Transvaal Executive Com-mittee .

Did he attend any meetings to your knowledge ? — Yes.

Any meetings of any other organisations ?— No, only the African National Congress.

Did you attend !:he Conference at Kliptown ? — Yes. When was that ? — That was during June 1956. Yes ?— He addressed the Congress of the People

meeting there. Where ? — At Kliptown, ^hen was that do you say ? — That was during June

1956. Jo you know what conference that was ? — That was

the Congress of the People meeting. What Congress of the People meeting ? — The meeting

was known as the Congress of the People. Do you know how many Congress of the People meetings

were held in Kliptown ? — That was the second one. Do you know any other person "by that name who has

taken part in the activities of the Congress of the People or the African National Congress ? — No.

Do you know Mahomed Asmal ? — Yes. Do you kn<~>w whether or not he was one of the Accused

? — Yes, he was, (Accused No, 2.) Did you know anything about him ? — He was a member

of the Transvaal Indian Congress and he was also a member of the Evatci Peoples Transport Council.

How io you know that he is a member of the Trans-vaal Indian Congress ? — He admitted that to me.

Have you seen him addressing or attending meetings

- 7947 -

?— Yes. What meetings ? — Meetings of the Evaton Peoples

Transport Council. Do you know any other person by that name who is

active in the Transvaal Indian Congress ? — No. Or the Transport Council at Evaton ?— No, Do you know Joseph Kumalo ? — Yes. Do you know whether or not he is one of the origi-

nal Accused ? — Yes. (No. 19) What do you know about him ? — I know he was the

chairman of the African National Congress at Evaton, How do you know that ? — He addressed meetings of

the African iTafcicnal Congress at Evaton. He was perform-ing the duties of a chairman at Evaton.

Do you know any other person "by that name who takes an active part in the activities of the African National Congress at Evaton ? — No.

Do you know V. Make ? — Yes. Do you know whether or not he was one of the origi-

nal Accused ? — He was one of the original Accused. (No.25) Do you know anything about him ? — Yes, he was a

member of the African National Congress and chairman of the Evaton People's Transport Council.

Did he address any meetings ? — He addressed meet-ings of the Evaton People's Transport Council.

Any other meetings ? — No, not that I know of. Do you know anybody else by that name who takes an

active part in the activities at Evaton ? — No. (No further questions) NO CROSS-EX, .MI NAT I ON: COURT ADJOUINS:

Collection: 1956 Treason Trial Collection number: AD1812

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