20 SCIENCE REPORTER April 2017

IN CONVERSATION

Dr. Rohini Godbole is a professor at the Centre for High Energy Physics, Indian Institute of Science, Bengaluru. She has worked on different aspects of particle phenomenology over the past three decades.

OUR appointment with Prof. Godbole was at 4:00 p.m. at Centre for High Energy

Physics, IISc. Half an hour early waiting for S.K. (one with the camera) to come, Hema, Karthik, Srinath and I started discussing the sequence of questions to be asked. And when we went to her offi ce a smiling face peeped at us saying, “Hello! Come inside.” “Are there enough chairs for all of you?” she asked and gently pushed her own chair towards us to make us comfortable.

Apart from connecting the dots of particle physics, Prof. Godbole is a member of the International Detector Advisory Group (IDAG) for International Linear Collider, CERN. She is an active member of the Women in Science initiative of the Indian Academy of Science (IAS). She is recipient of various prestigious awards and fellowships including Satyendranath Bose Medal (2009), Fellowship of National Academy of Sciences (2007), and Fellowship of Academy of Sciences of Developing World, TWAS (2009).

Physicist’s World Prof. Rohini Godbole in one sentence is an “elegant amalgam of knowledge, futuristic vision, and experience”. Explaining her journey from an all-girl school in Pune to Lilavati’s Daughter, Professor Godbole describes herself as a “scientist who just happens to be a woman”.

Born in 1952, Prof. Godbole has the essence of “Poor India” when education was a luxury and not every sector of the society could have it. Rohini was a student of an all-girl school where science was not even in the syllabus. She appeared for the exam for the state scholarship in the 4th grade but did not get it. Determined to get it next time (7th grade) young Rohini stumped on the fact that there will be a full-fl edged paper on science in the scholarship exam. But thanks to her teachers who taught her science after school hours she ended up getting the scholarship and became the fi rst girl student to get it (“clearly because science was not taught in our school that time” she exclaims).

Impressed by her alacrity and determination, one of her teachers whose husband was a renowned science expert offered her to come by to her house and learn science from her

“I am a “I am a Scientist Scientist Who Just Who Just happens happens To Be A To Be A Woman”Woman”

21 SCIENCE REPORTER April 2017

husband. Professor Godbole emphasises that he was one of the best teachers of her life. “He used to take us for star readings, collecting plant leaves, make us read Marathi magazines of science,” she recalls. Around him, she realised that science helps one to understand why and how of things. Slowly and steadily Rohini started to feel, “This is what I want in my life” (to pursue science).

Unveiling TalentProf. Godbole’s offi cial induction in research happened when she got the National Science Talent Scholarship. As a young student, Rohini got exposure to different standards of life and research. She felt that a lot of things are there to aspire for rather than just getting good marks in school exams.

The desire to understand things beyond what is given in a book, and thinking out of the box came to her when she started interacting with people and visited different places. She describes this period as the “awesome” three years of her life. These interactions, exposures paved her way towards research and became the building blocks of her transformation from a “student” into a “researcher”.

Dual-Degree Uncertainty! A meritorious student in both mathematics and science, Prof. Rohini almost did a double-degree in her undergraduate course. But in the end, she dropped the idea (“some sanity prevailed”, she chuckles) and went forward with physics. She gave the examination coming out as the university topper!

Being the alumnus of IIT Bombay, Prof. Godbole has many experiences and memories to share. To let us know about the less number of girls in the college she recounts that there were 27 rooms in the women’s hostel and not all were occupied. There were 17 students in her class out of which only three were women and as a surprise for everyone all three were in top fi ve of the class.

Perspiration and Inspiration Prof. Godbole has been the recipient of Distinguished Alumnus Award of IIT Bombay. Since her college days, IIT Bombay has given nearly 75-80 of those awards, out of which fi ve have been awarded to women alumni. Intellectual ability alone can’t be the reason behind one’s achievement. Prof. Godbole infers that women who initially came into science and climbed up the ladder were highly driven, who overcame the society barriers and pushed their limits.

“Drop Out & Justify” “Leaky Pipelines” is a metaphor used to describe the continuous loss of women in STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics). If water (young girls) is poured into one side of a pipe which is leaking throughout its length (women leave at various stages), very little water (women in higher order of the chain) is seen emerging out of the pipe. In science courses there are 35%, 10% in faculty positions when it gets to research institutes, the number grows lesser, and even lesser at managerial levels.

Discussing the factors behind this leak, Prof. Godbole pointed out that

support from family and understanding of the immediate society matters but unfortunately for a woman in our society things are not so simple, society is all about “drop out” and then “justify it”. A woman in research has aims and aspirations, she works hard but if something comes down the line of life she “gives it all up” mostly because it is “expected” from her. Prof. Godbole strongly feels that women in research should take decisions as per their evaluation and own thought process and not what they are “expected” to decide or what is mentally forced on them.

“It takes a big chunk of luck for a woman to be a good scientist, have a happy marriage and a happy family together,” she says. In our society, the defi nition of research is not clear up to a great extent. If a woman who is a doctor goes to hospital in the middle of night for emergency case, nobody around her will object as it is the part and parcel of the job but if a woman who is a scientist has to go for taking a reading or to perform an experiment at the same time, people won’t understand the need.

Acceptance of the fact that science is important and requires equally demanding life as other professions will encourage women to come out and perform better. With the changes in society, acceptance of women scientists has increased but holistic support from men to their wives is still ambiguous. Emotional support and encouragement from spouse undeniably plays an important role.

“Perception” Prof. Godbole recalls that her young colleagues used to ask her, “Oh! Now you have a student?” Her own female students sometimes surprisingly used to say, “Ma’am, we feel so good that being a woman you can talk science just like the male faculty.” She would reply: “What difference does it make when it comes to science? I study the same science as they do, if I understand it more I can speak better.”

Science is not gender-biased; it’s us who make it that way, she says.

Prof. Godbole recounts that after her talk women came to her and appreciated her saying, “When you were speaking we sort of felt connected that if you with your circumstances can do it then we can also do it. But with women from western universities, it felt like they have different standards and situation from us.”

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DiscriminationOf course, discrimination happens. The Faculty Report of MIT in 1999 shows differential treatment of women faculties in terms of salary, space, awards, resources, etc. The United States National Academy of Sciences in 2006 came across the fact that women in science and engineering are impeded by biased institutional structure in academia.

All these are examples of what Prof. Godbole calls “explicit obvious discrimination” but luckily in India we don’t see such differential treatment, here the scientifi c society indulges in “subtle discrimination”. For example, if in a conference a speaker has to be decided panel members do not come up with names of women scientists on their own. She talks of instances where for presenting a collaborative work the male researcher was preferred over the female.

Prof. Godbole shares that she has seen good mentors suggesting their female PhD students to join some soft-money research position or some long-term post-doc so that they can look after their family and husband. This, according to her, is the beginning of the second lane of science where growth of a scientist stops after which a woman cannot change gear and come back to the main road where Bhatnagar Award and Swarnajayanti Fellowships are offered. Answer to the question, “Why don’t we have higher women fraction in recipients of prestigious awards?” is because “we already lost them fi ve years back!”

Various institutes provide crèches for children but only when there is a certain percentage of women in the campus. Prof. Godbole says, “It should be made compulsory to have a good crèche in every science institute – not just where women are working. Don’t the men scientists have children? The need for a crèche is gender-neutral. Circumstances should be created to make working easier for a woman scientist. After all, science benefi ts from diversity.”

Condescending AttitudeThe Government has many schemes for women who took a career break but the attitude is a bit condescending (“poor women, they need help”). For example, Knowledge Involvement in Research Advancement through Nurturing (KIRAN) scheme of government emphasises helping those women scientists who are facing diffi culties because of “transfer of husband to other location”. “Come on! Seriously?” she exclaims. “Women scientists can also have transfers irrespective of their husbands’ transfer; does it mean that those husbands also need a KIRAN scheme to help them in relocation? No, that will be too bold to say! There should be a gender-neutral scheme helping them both, either of them can have job transfer and should receive government support simultaneously.”

“Lilavati’s Daughters” Prof. Godbole’s words about the book: “I am very proud of it and very glad that we did it.”

Lilavati refers to the twelfth century in which mathematician Bhaskaracharya talks about a number of problems with his daughter, Lilavati. Lilavati was never married but her intellectual legacy lives on in the form of her daughters – the women scientists of India.

Initially, Prof. Godbole recalls that as a scientist she never looked at women in science as an explicit issue (not because it was not important but somehow she was too busy doing science).

In 2001, she was invited to Paris to give a talk at Women in Physics Conference (International Union of Pure and Applied Physics) about related experiences and obstacles faced by women in pursuing physics. She recalls that nearly 10 people from different parts of the world were invited to deliver the talks; from Western universities, Japan, Science Minister from China and one woman scientist from Egypt. IUPAP being a big organization, people from all over the world attended it. Prof. Godbole recounts that after her talk women came to her and appreciated her saying, “When you were speaking we sort of felt connected that if you with your circumstances can do it then we

Prof. Godbole says, “If things were that bad and women overcame those diffi culties, we are in a better place and can achieve a lot. So, let’s hope for the best and keep working hard. Let’s wish that after some time such discussions would not be required and we all will be seen as scientists who happen to be women.”

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can also do it. But with women from western universities, it felt like they have different standards and situation from us.”

This idea appealed to Prof. Godbole – if you need to inspire people you need the examples from next door. Soon, a Women in Science Committee was formed in the Indian Academy of Science. Prof. Godbole says, “If you ask any person walking on the road to name fi ve scientists of India, answers will be A.P.J. Abdul Kalam, C.V. Raman, C.N.R. Rao but no names of women scientists of India (they may say Madam Curie!). The reason is not that there are no women scientists from this country, the reason is that we don’t know them.”

This scenario propelled Prof. Godbole to write about Indian women scientists of modern India. She shares her own experience of 1984 when she came to Bangalore to deliver a lecture and stood star-struck on seeing Sulochana Gadgil, a highly acclaimed Indian meteorologist. She told herself, “if she can do it so can I”.

Prof. Godbole feels a great sense of gratifi cation when young women mail her telling about themselves, how they decided to move forward with their research after they thought of giving it up.

Bringing Women to Science Support from family and spouse: Lilavati’s Daughters is about 100 women scientists with one thing in common: “support from family either from parents or spouse”. This factor accounts in a great way in a woman’s career and life.

Reservation is not the Solution: Prof. Godbole feels that for bringing women in science reserving seats for them is not the solution. In a survey when she interacted with women from different parts of the country, they strongly opined that they want to work in research institutes because of their ability not because they are given a seat.

Preference to Scientifi c Age over Physical Age with gender-neutrality: Out of two people applying for the same post-doc, with the same qualifi cations (a) 32 years old (without any career-break) and (b) 35 years old (with 3 years career-break), the applicant with no break is preferred. Prof. Godbole says, “Selection criteria should be based on scientifi c age not physical age and it should be gender-neutral, i.e. if a woman/man, who has taken a career-break after PhD, his/her scientifi c age should be taken into account. How many years he/she has done science after their PhD is relevant.”

Gender Audit: In order to keep in check the dynamics of changes in the number of women doing PhD and the number of women in faculty positions, all academic institutes according to

Prof. Godbole should conduct a gender audit over a certain period of time. This will make pro-active understanding of gender balance in institutes and will help to take necessary measures for reducing the gender gap.

Gender-Neutrality: Prof. Godbole says, “I am not a feminist, I am a humanist. In a society we cannot have extremities; it always harms the balance. It’s not women’s science or men’s science, it is just science. Participation and representation should be from all over the society.”

Prof. Godbole narrates the story of Anandi Gopal, a young girl from Kalyan who got married at the age of 9 to Gopalrao 20 years elder to her. Gopalrao helped her through studies despite social resistance. Anandi eventually became the “fi rst” lady doctor of India.

Prof. Godbole says, “If things were that bad and women overcame those diffi culties, we are in a better place and can achieve a lot. So, let’s hope for the best and keep working hard. Let’s wish that after some time such discussions would not be required and we all will be seen as scientists who happen to be women.”

With this hope and positivity exuding, Professor Rohini Godbole wished us all the very best.

Ms Khushboo Pandey is a PhD Student at the Interdisciplinary Center for Energy Research (ICER), Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore- 560012; Email: 009khushboo@gmail.com

Acceptance of the fact that

science is important and

requires equally demanding

life as other professions will

encourage women to come

out and perform better.