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HOW TO HAVE A BREAKTHROUGH WITH REFERRALS 1 Robert Middleton Interviews Duncan MacPherson

Copyright ©2009 Robert Middleton, Action Plan Marketing - www.actionplan.com

Robert: Hi. This is Robert Middleton of Action Plan Marketing and the Action Plan Marketing Club. Today, I’m interviewing Duncan MacPherson, who is the author of Breakthrough Business Development. The interview is “How to Have a Breakthrough With Referrals From Existing Clients.”

Welcome to the call, Duncan.

Duncan: Thank you very much, Robert. I’ve been looking forward to chatting with you.

Robert: I have as well. I’ve been looking over your book. I haven’t read the whole thing, but it’s very impressive. There are a ton of very practical, hands-on ideas. I always want to interview experts who really know what they’re doing and have practiced it in their business. I think this is going to be a perfect fit.

Before we get into the interview, I want to give everyone a brief background about you.

Duncan MacPherson is co-founder and co-CEO of Pareto Systems and Pareto Platform, an industry leading business development firm and ASP (Application Service Provider) dedicated to the elite professionals and companies within the financial services sector.

Duncan and his team of consultants are in constant demand for speaking engagements and for assisting Financial Services Professionals create predictable, sustainable, and duplicable businesses. Pareto Systems is well known for its approach, which is based on best practices and for its focus on implementation.

Duncan's expertise in demystifying business development and marketing in the financial world has universal appeal;



from the high-level advisor to the successful wholesaler, to corporate financial institutions.

Duncan is an industry author and has written the best- selling books: Breakthrough Business Development, Take Your Business to THE NEXT LEVEL and The Promise of the Future: A Financial Advisor's Guide to Effective Marketing.

Let’s get right into it, Duncan. Why are referrals so important to a business, and what percentage of a business ideally ought to be referral business, in your opinion?

Duncan: Well, working backwards, the ideal is that all new clients are acquired through some form of endorsement, whether that’s from an existing client or from a strategic influencer, another business professional with whom you collaborate.

Now, that’s not always the case. I’d say for probably 50% of our clients that we work with, that is achieved. For the other 50%, they still have to engage in some classic sort of target marketing and prospecting marketing.

But that is the ideal, that at least a majority, if not all, of your new clients come to you via that endorsement.

The other question is why are referrals so important? Dave and I, my partner, when we wrote the book, what was interesting is the entire process and philosophy stems from our ongoing interaction with our clients.

We are like broken records continually reminding people, business professionals, that the value of their business has nothing to do with how many clients they have. It’s in how



many advocates they have. This is just an extension of the loyalty ladder.

There’s actually three types of clients. There’s customers, clients and advocates. A customer gives you some business, but they deal with another of your competitors. They don’t empower you fully. A client empowers you fully, but they don’t send referrals.

An advocate is the dream client. They’re a joy to work with, they’re fiercely loyal, and they empower you fully. Every single need that they have that you can fulfill, they empower you. Best of all, they brag about you to anybody who will listen.

The beauty of an advocate is, again in addition to being competitor-proofed and empowering you fully, is that they bring so much personal fulfillment to your business. There’s a practical side, and then there’s that fulfillment side. That is the ultimate objective as to why advocacy is so important and why referrals are so critical.

Robert: Obviously, you don’t just teach a system of what to say and how to ask to get clients. You put a lot of attention with your clients on building these advocates, right?

Duncan: Well, yeah. We break it down into helping our clients understand what we call “the why, the who and the how.” They “why is” the purpose. In other words, why should a client refer a friend or a business associate to you? Then of course, why don’t they? There’s that issue.

Then, of course, “who”. Do they even know who to introduce to you? Do they think of you as a specialist or a



generalist, and do they introduce people to you who meet your ideal-client profile?

Then, of course, “how”, meaning the process. Do they have a process to follow that’s very professional and predictable in terms of how to actually introduce you?

When we walked our clients through that process of “why, who, how,” it becomes very, very entrenched, and the traction is very, very rapid.

Robert: I want to get into a lot more detail about all these steps. Before that, it sounds like, from what you’re saying, that most professional service businesses really don’t have a system to get referrals. Do you find that’s the case?

Duncan: Yeah, there’s no doubt. Some people, it’s not even anywhere in their approach because they don’t like to nag their clients, so referrals are somewhat accidental.

Robert: I think people pray for referrals.

Duncan: That’s well-said. Exactly. They pray for a referral.

Robert: They do a good job and pray for referrals. That’s their marketing plan.

Duncan: Right. It’s fine because they obviously don’t want to offend anybody. They don’t want to lean on their clients. They want to just nurture things along and just hope for the best. Then you have the people who kind of dabble at it and, in some situations, actually do more harm than good.

Then you have the others who have figured out, again, the why, the who, and the how. They have a very predictable,



methodical process. They understand that attracting a steady stream of referrals is a process, and it becomes the lifeblood of their business.

Robert: You’re speaking my language. I talk a lot about process, step-by-step things that you actually do. You do it consistently, fine-tune it, make it work and produce results.

Can we get more into your methodology? What is the best way? What is your methodology with this who, how and why? Tell me more about this whole methodology of how to start introducing your clients, introducing your service to their associates.

Duncan: Let’s start with the why because everybody wants to know the how, but if you think of the why as the purpose and the how as the process, purpose is just as important as process. In fact, I was taught a long time ago that when the why is clear, the how gets easy. Let’s talk about the why.

So, I ask our clients. I’ll say, “So why don’t you get referrals?” and we’ll have this exchange. Generally, what it comes down to is the way they position referrals.

Here’s how I’ll just frame it with a very simple question for your audience. That is, and I’d like them to just sort of kick their own tires and scrutinize their own approach, when you talk about referrals with a client or a strategic partner or influencer, do you position it as a service you’re providing or as a favor you’re requesting of them?



Most people, even unconsciously, they don’t even realize it, but they are positioning it as a favor they’re requesting of their clients or their partners.

Robert: I’d say 99%.

Duncan: Well, yeah. And you’re probably not that far off. The fundamental flaw with that is that it makes you look needy.

Robert: It feels like you’re begging.

Duncan: And you cannot bring your needs to your clients, and here’s why: because it’s not attractive. There’s a difference between salesmanship and stewardship. A salesperson chases. A professional consultant attracts. The process of asking for a referral and looking needy is not attractive.

You have to remember something, Robert. It’s not what you say. It’s what they hear. If you’re my client and I say to you, “Robert, I’m trying to grow my business. I’m looking for new clients,” what does that say? I’m positioning it as a favor. I’m looking needy. It’s not attractive.

Robert: It’s looking like work on my part, and if they need clients, then maybe their services aren’t as good as I think they are. All kinds of stuff comes up around that.

Duncan: Absolutely. You’re bang-on. It starts to undermine my relationship with you.

Now, on that topic, when I’ll talk to one of our clients and I’ll say, “Have you ever thought for a second about what is undermining your referability? Why don’t your clients refer?” All roads typically lead to this key point, and that



is: Do your clients know with absolute certainty how an endorsement will ultimately come back to reflect on them?

You’ve heard the old saying that “no good deed goes unpunished,” right?

Robert: Yes.

Duncan: As easy as it is for me to refer a friend or a business associate or a client to you, it’s easier not to. Maybe I just don’t want to go there because I don’t want my friend to come back to me and say, “Oh man! That did not work out,” or whatever. So unless I know with certainty that you’re going to make me look good, then I’m probably not going to go there.

So when a business professional can master these core components:

1. Position it as a service they’re providing, and

2. Ensure and communicate with absolute clarity how the endorsement will reflect on the client or the person making the endorsement,

Your referability goes through the roof when that is accomplished.

Robert: Can you give us a little scripting or words about what you would say to actually do this?

Duncan: Absolutely. The one I’m going to use now is mainly because it’s very topical, but also because it’s fresh because I had a conversation with a very high-caliber financial consultant.



This is counter-intuitive, but I said to him, “You’re at your highest level of referability right now, primarily because money is so topical, and also because there’s so much doubt. People have so much doubt for their current financial provider.”

As I said to him, I said, “What does your client say when a friend asks them about you? Is it a knee-jerk reaction that they very professionally and calmly and persuasively start waving your flag?” Of course, you can imagine how that conversation went.

But this is basically what I said to him in terms of specific phraseology. Again, remember what we said in terms of the core tenets, in terms of:

1. Don’t look needy.

2. Understand how it reflects on them.

3. Be professional.

4. Make it clear, based on why, who, how.

So Robert, let’s say you’re my client and I’m your financial consultant, and we’re having an interesting conversation. Just indulge me as I go through the process.

Robert: Sure.

Duncan: It’s very Socratic. You have to remember, permission marketing is when you ask questions, you’re in essence getting permission to go deeper with your track.

Here’s the first question I would ask you. I’d say, “Robert, how are your friends and family members coping with this



period of financial turbulence? Are they looking to the future with anticipation or apprehension?”

You would respond, and I’d say, “Okay, Robert, if you don’t mind me asking, when you talk about me with a business associate or a friend, how do you describe me? What do you say?” By the way, that question is very powerful, and you had better brace yourself because you’re probably not going to like the description.

Robert: “Oh, I just say that you’re a financial planner I’m working with, or something like that,” and you think, “Oh my god! He’s not a very good salesperson for me.”

Duncan: And this is what your audience really has to lock in is that when you ask your clients, “How do you describe me?” it really opens up the opportunity for you to fill in those blanks.

Robert: By the way, for whoever is listening to this call, you have to adapt that first question to your particular situation. It’s not too hard to script that. “How are your associates dealing with X right now?” and that kind of thing. The second question is pretty much the same no matter who you’re talking to. (Okay, Robert, if you don’t mind me asking, when you talk about me with a business associate or a friend, how do you describe me? What do you say?)

Duncan: If I could add to that, actually, that’s a very good point, and I’ll get to the scripting in a moment. A really good acronym to remember in a conversation with a client is the acronym F.O.R.M.

F.O.R.M. represents the four key components to a meaningful conversation and a great relationship. These



are the things you talk about with your clients and your business partners and associates. You talk about their Family, you talk about their Occupation, you talk about their Recreational interests, and you talk about your Message, which is the products or services you provide.

In that conversation, I used family as the entrée or stepping stone in, but you’re absolutely right. You can ask them a question about their business, and of course just link it in with the economic chaos that’s going on out there. So you’re right. That’s a very good point, so just remember F.O.R.M. It’s a great little framework.

I used that as a stepping stone to then say, “Well, if you don’t mind me asking, when you talk about me with an associate or a business professional or a client, what do you say? How do you describe me?” Then we have that conversation.

Then I say this. I say, “Well, Robert, the reason I’m asking you these questions is I want to remind you of a value-added service that I offer my clients that they really find to be of value, especially now. That is, I make myself available to act as a sounding board for friends and family members and associates of my clients.”

I’ll just stop there for a second, Robert, because that is how you open up the conversation. You notice that I use the word “sounding board.” That distinction is key because a lot of business professionals use the phraseology of “second opinion” or something like that. The problem with that is it’s so overdone that people see right through it.



When you say “sounding board,” it has a fresh flavor or feel to it. It’s very, phonetically even, appealing. That’s the entry point. I’ll just carry on.

This is a very important point too. I’d say, “Now, Robert, please understand. I’m not asking you to think of anyone right now. This is simply for down the road.”

Robert: It takes the pressure off.

Duncan: It’s very disarming. I’m not looking needy. Then I just walk in and explain my why, who, how, and I let the conversation naturally unfold.

I just simply say to you, “Robert, I’m not asking you to think of anyone right now, but I’m just wanting to remind you that if someone ever asks you about me, or you feel compelled to introduce a client or a business associate or a friend to me, please understand that my objective, and I don’t want to claim miracles, will occur which is I will make myself available.

“One of two things usually happens. Either I validate for your client or your friend that their current approach is fundamentally solid, or I’ll reveal a few minor flaws that they might want to consider adjusting. But as you know, minor adjustments can often lead to major improvements down the road.

“Either way, if they’re a client of yours, I will make myself available. Please understand. Anyone you introduce to me does not need to become a client to take advantage of this service.”



That is so important because I don’t want you to think that if you introduce someone to me, I’m going to try to sell them on becoming a client. The last thing you want is your friend to go back to you a month later and say, “Well, thanks for introducing me to Duncan. He was quite a salesman!” To validate our relationship, that’s not a strong reflection.

That’s how you enter into the conversation. Now, one of two things will occur there. They’ll either sort of brush it off and say, “Well, that’s good to know. I’ll keep that in mind,” or they will give you permission to go deeper. They’ll say something like, “Well, I didn’t even know you did that,” or “I didn’t even know you were accepting new clients,” or something like that.

It gives you the opportunity to explain why you do this, and the best way to describe why you do this is because it’s very fulfilling, that the most fulfilling part of what you do is helping people make informed decisions. That’s your why.

Then you can do your who. Your who can be basically a description of your ideal client profile. You just simply say, and this language is so important, “Look. I don’t try to be all things to all people. I’m all things to some people. I’m a specialist, not a generalist. Let me explain to you who I work with.”

You can then go and describe your ideal client to give your client the clarity to ensure that they’re introducing people to you who come close to meeting that profile. See, what this also does is it enables you to project scarcity, and



scarcity is an important component to attracting a steady stream of good-quality referrals.

Robert: Also, if you just say, “Well, anybody who has some money in the bank,” you’re not going to get the right people. It’s going to be a waste of time.

Duncan: That’s a very interesting point. Most people we talk to about referrals, literally 50% of the people who get referred to them don’t even come close to meeting their ideal-client profile, but they taken them on as a client because they don’t want to offend the person who made the endorsement.

Obviously, there’s flaws there, but you have to convey to your clients that it’s not like you’re trying to just take anybody with a pulse, anybody who can fog a mirror, you’d grab their business. No, no, no! You want to project scarcity. Simply say, “I’m not all things to all people. I’m all things to some people. Let me explain to you who those people are,” and describe your ideal-client profile.

Then you can finish it off by simply saying this very powerful statement. So, Robert, if you and I are discussing this as a client and a vendor, I would wrap this up by saying, “Robert, there is a process in place that my clients use for making introductions.”

That statement is very powerful because it’s professional, it’s forthright, it’s established, and it’s something that they can start to get their head around.

Now, most people say to their clients or their partners, “If someone asks you about me, or you feel compelled to make an introduction, have your friend call me.” Some



people will give their clients a little stack of business cards on the bizarre chance that they’re going to carry these things around with them everywhere they go, failing to realize that the degree of neediness they’re projecting is in direct correlation to the thickness of the stack of cards they’re giving them.

Robert: I always find that kind of funny. “Here’s half a dozen cards. Spread them out to your friends.”

Duncan: Here’s also the fundamental flaw there.

Robert: It’s funny. I have to say this, Duncan. The things that don’t work are the things that everyone does. It’s the things that really do work that take some refinement, like we’re talking about.

Duncan: It’s like we often say, “Common sense is not a common practice.” There’s a lot of flawed selling and salesmanship gambits out there that occasionally work, but people fail to recognize the collateral damage that they may cause.

If I tell you, Robert, if I say, “If someone asks you about me or you feel compelled to introduce a friend to me, have them call me,” you have to remember the Law of Diminishing Intent. If a month later, you’re having a conversation with a friend and you tell your friend to call me, what’s the likelihood he’ll ever call me? There’s no relationship. There’s no trust or rapport.

It’s a fleeting endorsement, and then the Law of Diminishing Intent kicks in. A couple of days later, he forgets he even had that conversation with you.



Robert: If there was a real pressing need at the moment, sometimes they’ll call, but it’s fairly rare. People are afraid to call professionals. God knows what’s going to happen.

Duncan: So with that said, the key is to coach your clients to be that rainmaker, to come to the rescue, by simply saying, “Robert, there’s a process in place that my clients use for making introductions. If someone asks you about me or you feel compelled to introduce someone to me, call me. Get the wheels in motion. Tell me about your friend.

“I’ll send out an introductory kit explaining our approach. I’ll make the time to be that sounding board, and you hold me accountable. They’ll be afforded the same level of professionalism and confidentiality that you receive.”

When I frame it that way, now I want their kneejerk reaction to be to call me. To put it in a scenario, you’re talking to a friend. Your friend sort of opens the door for you to endorse me. You endorse me, and you say, “You have to talk to Duncan.” You go on and describe me in a very persuasive way.

Then you say, “He’s a very professional guy. He makes himself available to act as a sounding board. Do you want me to make a call?” The likelihood your friend’s going to say, “That would be great” is very high.

Robert: You’re taking them by the hand. You’re doing them a favor. You’re helping them out. That’s less pressure on him than, “Here’s his card. You call him.”

Duncan: That’s exactly it. You might have noticed a little bit of language in there, like we actually tell our clients to take the word “referral” out of the lexicon, out of the



vocabulary, and replace it with the word “introduce.” There’s little subtleties like that. “Referral” sounds very salesy. “Introduce” is just an activity.

Instead of creating an issue regarding any productivity, you’re just speaking to a very subtle activity. That, in and of itself, adds to your referability. There’s other aspects as well, phraseology like “value” and “process” and “service” and “introduce.” That language is very low-key, very forthright and very professional.

Robert: Right. Now, just to go back to what you’re actually offering, we have something in our marketing system that is similar. I call it a “strategy session.” It’s a bit like your sounding board session, if someone’s interested and they need assistance.

“I’d be happy to talk to your friend and offer them a marketing strategy session. It’s a complementary session in which we explore a little bit about their situation, goals, etc., and we act as a sounding board, give some ideas, and so on.”

That’s very similar to what you’re offering there. In other words, you’re not selling your services, and you’re not jumping into it. You’re offering a sample, a complementary time with you over the phone.

Duncan: That’s a good point because it takes the abstract of what happens in a referral encounter down to something that they can envision and conceptualize in their minds. It essentially invites them to raise their hand and opt in in a very nonthreatening way, and just evaluate you on the merit of what you deliver there. Yeah, it’s a very similar approach.



Robert: Of course, every business is going to offer a different kind of session. Can you tell me a little bit more what you cover in the session? I know primarily you work with financial consultants, advisors, planners, etc., so it’s not going to be the same necessarily for a consultant (or coach or other service professional), but I’m sure there are some parallels that people can make.

Duncan: What everybody has to remember is that in any form of marketing, you’re really positioning yourself as number two. The prospective client, the friend or the business associate of the person introducing that person to you is already doing business in some way, shape or form with somebody like you. In other words, your competitor.

They’re obviously disillusioned with that provider, or they have a new need that has presented itself that has prompted them to want to learn about you or the space you’re in. The key here to remember is contrast. They’re either going to contrast you to your competitors that they’re also going to look at, or they’re contrasting you to the person who’s currently working with them.

What you’re starting to do is to obviously stand out and differentiate yourself and elevate and let them come to their own conclusions that, “Wow! This guy is far superior.”

The calls to action to your point about the strategy session or the sounding board is very, very key because it prompts a degree of self-motivation because it’s easy to start that contrast-building process.

I’m not even sure if I answered your question there, but these are very key points to keep in mind.



Robert: Can you give me an outline of what that process might look like? When you meet the friend of the client, what are the basic steps that you generally go through?

Duncan: Let’s talk about what they aren’t, and let’s talk about what they are. Again, like you said, everybody’s business is different, so they can just sort of use this to contrast to their own current approach.

The first thing you want to do is remember what your objective is. Your goal is not to try to sell this person using a sales process. You have three goals when you meet with someone who’s been introduced to you by a client or a partner. Here are your three goals:

Goal 1: Validation.

What I mean by that is your worst-case scenario is you want that person to go back to the person who made that introduction and say to that person, “Thank you for introducing me to your management consultant” or whatever the case may be.

That validation takes the mystery away in terms of how the endorsement’s going to reflect on your client. It makes you more referable to that client. That’s Goal 1.

Goal 2: Contrast.

As you are meeting with this person, they are contrasting your approach to that of their current provider or anybody else they’ve met in your space. The more favorable you contrast yourself, it prompts them to the third and most important goal.

Goal 3: Self- motivation.



This means they come to their own conclusions. You see, in a sales process, I’m motivating you to take action. And the problem with external motivation is it has the lasting value of a caffeine rush.

Robert: It doesn’t last long. It’s exciting in the moment.

Duncan: Have you ever been to a timeshare sales pitch before?

Robert: Not only have I been to one, but I bought one.

Duncan: Was there any buyer’s remorse tied to that?

Robert: There wasn’t. It was brilliant.

Duncan: Well, fair enough.

Robert: I think it followed this format in a way. They educated us a lot. We said we’d have to think about it. They said, “That’s not a problem. You’re going to be in town for a few days anyway.” It was great. The property sold itself, really, in that manner. It was unexpected.

Duncan: Fair enough. In most selling encounters where the salesperson is selling the prospective client, there’s a high degree of anticlimax and buyer’s remorse.

See, here’s the question I ask when I talk to any form of consultant. It could be an accountant. It could be any knowledge-for-profit professional, anybody who thinks for a living. I’ll say this to him or her. I’ll say, “Look. Do you project scarcity in your approach?” They’ll sort of fumble around with the answer. Then I’ll say this.

I’ll say, “Look. Who views it as an accomplishment when you bring on a new client? Is it you for closing them, or them for qualifying?” As you can imagine, Robert, nine of



the 10 business professionals nowhere in their approach does a prospective client need to convince them there’s a good fit. It’s the person who’s doing all the convincing. It actually undermines your referability.

Now, let me take and give you some context to this. Let’s say you and I have never met. You’ve been referred to me by a really important strategic influencer or business professional with whom we collaborate on a regular basis. So, you’re his client. He and I work really well together, but you and I have never met.

He’s introduced you to me. You’re coming to my office for the first time. My first question is this: Are you coming to my meeting with anticipation or apprehension? Which one?

Robert: Anticipation.

Duncan: There’s probably a little bit of both. There’s some anticipation because we had a good chat, you had a great endorsement from your friend, and you’re looking forward to this. There is also some apprehension. Why is there apprehension?

Robert: Actually, I was thinking from the other person’s point of view. I’m sorry. I mixed up the people.

Duncan: No problem. So, you’re the prospective client coming into my office.

Robert: Definitely, there’s going to be apprehension.

Duncan: And here’s why there’s apprehension. You’re guarded because you think I’m going to try to sell you.



Robert: Exactly.

Duncan: I tell our clients, “Look. When you meet with a prospective client who’s been introduced to you by a partner or client, always use an agenda and have no hidden agenda.”

Here’s how it works. You and I walk in, we pump hands, we exchange the pleasantries, and the first thing I do as we segue into the formal part of the meeting is I slide an agenda across the table. It has your name, the date and time of the meeting, and a series of bullets, a track of items that I want to cover in this meeting.

I can see your apprehension start to melt away. I can see the validation and the contrast and the self-motivation building. As you’re looking at the agenda, I say to you, “Robert, right up front, I really appreciate you making the time to be here. I know you’re a busy guy, and there’s a lot you could be doing right now instead of meeting with me, and I never take that lightly.

“I know you came here to get to know me and to learn about my company and assess our credentials and skill set. That’s what I want to convey in this initial meeting. I wanted to meet with you to get to know you, to be your sounding board, and to help determine if I think we would have good chemistry and compatibility over what could be a very long-term relationship.

“Because this kind of thing is so important to both of us, just so you know, at the end of this meeting, nobody has to make any decisions or commitments. When we’re done, we’ll both step back. I’ll meet with my team, and we’ll discuss your situation. You can take some time to digest



what we’ve covered. I’ll contact you in 48 hours to help determine if I think we’re a good fit for each other. Is that fair?”

Robert: That’s great. That takes off all the pressure. Now the apprehension has dropped, and I’m all ears.

Duncan: You’re a lot more open and receptive audience. You’re far more engaged. You’re not anywhere near as defensive. You have a track to follow in the meeting. There’s no mystery. I’m not going to spring anything on you. That is the difference between chasing and attracting.

Robert: By the way, this can be done over the telephone. You simply email them the agenda, right?

Duncan: Absolutely. Not to oversimplify it, there are some adjustments, but for the most part it’s very, very similar.

It’s an incredibly powerful approach and process and one that is a refreshing departure from what that person was expecting and what they’re used to based on other encounters.

Robert: This can really work for all kinds of professional services. “We want you to think about it. We want you to reflect on it. I’m going to be thinking about it, and then we’re going to be talking again in a couple of days.” That way, you think, “Okay. I’m not going to feel any pressure whatsoever.” Fantastic!

Duncan: You’d be shocked how many times people will call us up and say, “I followed your process, and at the end of the meeting, the prospective client tried to close me.”



Robert: This is good news! In your model, you don’t even let people say, “Let’s go ahead.” By the time you talk to them in two days, they’ll probably be even more ready.

Duncan: Well, if you said to me, in our little encounter there, “You know what, Duncan? I don’t need to think about this. I’m going out of town tomorrow. I’m a busy guy. I’m done with my current provider. He’s really dropped the ball and let us down. I want to get started right now. Everything my friend’s told me about you is bang-on. I really want to get started.”

I have to be consistent. I can’t deviate. If I say, “All right, come on,” then I have no integrity. I have no congruency or consistency. I have to say to you, “Robert, I appreciate your enthusiasm. It means a lot. If that’s how you feel, that’s not going to change in a couple of days. Please, this is a process that we follow. I’ll work around your schedule, but let me follow this process.”

Robert: I like that. Now tell me more about the rest of the interview. What are some of the spaces that you cover, now that you’ve handled the first part? What do you call that first part?

Duncan: Well, that’s basically the promise statement to basically help you understand my philosophy and my approach. It’s using the agenda, having no hidden agenda, and then just allowing the meeting to very comfortably unfold throughout that encounter.

Then, whatever the nature of the business is, I have bullet points that enable me to walk through the track I want to go through with the prospective client.



Robert: Can you give me a general outline of some of those points that you might cover with potential clients at that point?

Duncan: Well, a sample agenda would be, again as I said, you name, the date and time of the meeting, and then a series of bullets, such as:

Bullet 1: An introduction to my firm.

Bullet 2: An overview of my credentials.

Bullet 3: An approach.

Bullet 4: What’s important to you.

Bullet 5: The uniqueness of my approach.

Some people use testimonials or they’ll have other points. The last bullet, of course, is:

Bullet X: Is there a fit?

It’s the point where you say, “Okay. Let’s both step back, digest what we’ve covered and then come back together.”

Robert: Given that this is, say, a financial service, how much time do you spend finding out about their current finances, where their investments are, what’s working and what’s not working? How deep do you go into that in this meeting?

Duncan: Again, a lot of our clients use a bullet on the agenda called “Getting to Know Each Other.” Our clients, again, would use F.O.R.M. as the framework, so they’d ask questions about their occupation and just let natural things uncover regarding family and recreational issues, and of course tie that in, where possible, with message based on how the



individual presents features, benefits, services, solutions and so on.

Robert: What do you find the length of that session is typically?

Duncan: A typical first meeting with a prospective client is in the vicinity of 45 to 75 minutes long.

Robert: I think that’s important, that you have to give enough time here. Often, people say, “Well, I can fit this in in 20 minutes,” and that’s not very realistic.

Duncan: You see, there’s a chemistry component that is very, very important. I just don’t think 20 minutes is enough time to establish that.

Robert: There’s a lot of back and forth. You’re telling them about your approach. You’re finding out about their situation and what their needs are. You’re finding out something about their financial goals, I would assume, and things like that.

Duncan: The bullet points on the agenda of what’s important to you and getting to know each other are nice, gentle triggers to open up those conversations.

Robert: The thing I found is that when you establish that rapport and people trust you, and all of that is there, people just tend to open up to you. When people open up to you, you can ask just about anything and people are happy to tell you in a conversational sort of atmosphere.

Duncan: That brings up a really key point because you said the word and the word is “trust.” Trust is not just an accident. It’s not just about something that might happen. It is earned and developed based on how you conduct yourself.



We break trust down into what we call the four C’s. The four C’s are:

1. Consistency.

You and your team are unwaveringly consistent in terms of how you interact and conduct yourself with your clients.

2. Credentials.

Whatever space you’re in, you constantly strive to be as good or better than anybody in that space.

3. Congruency.

Congruency means you do what you say.

4. Chemistry.

It’s interesting. You look at F.O.R.M. The products and services you provide, that’s your message, but you are the messenger. Just doing a good job in terms of what you provide, that’s what’s expected, but going above and beyond that, that’s where the leadership and that’s where the real professionalism and the chemistry is developed.

I’ll tell you, the best seminar I’ve ever seen on leadership was Norman Schwarzkopf’s. He said, “When it comes to leadership, people always follow character first and strategy second.”

I’ll never trivialize a business professional’s strategy, but remember, you want your clients to follow you and trust you, and it comes from the character. The character comes from to what extent you connect and develop that chemistry. That’s why these points are so critical.



Robert: That makes sense.

Let’s move to the next step, and then I want to come back to how to create advocates, which I think is a big part of this. What do you do in that second meeting, the follow-up meeting, typically?

Duncan: Let’s assume that after the meeting, I call you up 48 hours later, and I say, “Robert, I met with my team. We’ve discussed your situation. You perfectly meet our ideal-client profile. We think there’s a great fit. We’d like to move forward.” You say, “That’s great! I’ve been looking forward to this call. I want to get started.” So off we go.

I say, “Great!” I say, “My assistant’s going to contact you, set up our next meeting and tell you what to bring. Until then, I look forward to seeing you. Take it easy.”

We fast-forward to what is referred to as the “signing ceremony.” There’s an agenda, we meet, and I put you on to my advocate process, which is my process for fast-tracking you to advocate status.

Again, every business is different in terms of the actual deliverable and how it’s fulfilled, but you basically lay out the parameters, you take care of business, you explain how you’re going to work together and interact, you lay out your plan, and away you go.

Again, I don’t want to oversimplify it, but you follow the agenda. Use a process. Don’t just wing it. Coach that client how to become an advocate using what is called that “advocate process.”



Robert: I want to get more into that, but before we do, I have a reminder. If you’re a coach or consultant, this follow-up process is going to be different. In some cases, you might have to do a proposal, if it’s for a consulting project for a big business.

Essentially, you’re taking the position of, “Yes, we’d like to accept you as a client,” which is such a different mindset than saying, “Will you accept us as your consultant or service provider.” You’re playing a little bit hard-to-get and a little bit scarcity, in a sense, but it’s sincere. After all, you don’t want to work with everyone, and you want to really think through, “Is this someone we can help?”

Does that fit with your model here?

Duncan: It definitely fits with our model. If that’s your model, then you have to consistently deploy that model in all your interactions.

Robert: Again, you have to do a little customization here in finding out how to do that. I think the big point you’re making in this whole referral process is that you’re never shoving anything down anyone’s throat, which is why people hate selling. That’s what they equate with selling, right?

Duncan: We say to our clients, “Look. Your clients aren’t buying something from you. They’re buying into a relationship with you.” There’s a big distinction there in terms of a transaction versus moving that client up the ladder from customer to client to advocate. If they’re buying in to a meaningful relationship based on advocacy, you have to treat them accordingly.



Robert: Exactly. After all, if they don’t trust you in that process, they’re never going to trust you as someone working with them. There’s this professional respect that keeps coming from you in this whole process of holding them as someone who deserves to be treated well, treated with respect, listened to and understood. Then, again, that chemistry comes out of that kind of interaction. That’s very powerful.

Duncan: If you don’t do that, then you’re just trading your time for money.

Robert: It’s easy to fall into that. “I have to close this deal. I have to get this client. I have to do that.” There’s a certain truth to that. If we don’t get clients, we’re in trouble, but we’ve shifted the paradigm, in a way, of the whole way we think about it.

It takes a lot of the pressure off of everybody. With a lack of pressure but a lot of value, it’s a natural thing to want to move forward. A lot of this is context, not just the process, yet the process is very important.

Duncan: Exactly. Obviously, you have to be practical and continually develop your business, but bringing on a new client, in and of itself, is no reason to celebrate. It is just the beginning.

When you focus on advocacy and say, “Okay. My objective is to competitor-proof this client, ensure that the client will empower me fully over the lifetime of the relationship, and coach him or her to become an advocate of mine,” then you transform your business.



Let’s say I meet somebody and they’ve got 200 clients or 100 clients or whatever the case may be, typically what they’ll have is 20 or 30 customers, 60 or 70 clients, and about 10 advocates. I say to them, “Look. Our goal is in the next three to six months to have a business consisting of 50 advocates. What would that do for you?”

When you have 50 people or 100 people out there waving your flag, they become a sales force for you, and ironically, their loyalty strengthens as well.

Robert: Then you keep getting these calls from these advocates saying, “Hey! I have another person who I think would like to talk with you,” and you’re off and running.

Duncan: Well, that’s just it. That’s the difference between classic prospecting. I talked to a client the other day, and we were talking about cold calling. He was going to engage in some cold calling. I said, “You know, that’s like ‘spray and pray.’” To me, that’s about as effective as cutting down a tree with a hammer.

Robert: I know. It’s also one reason why, when financial people call me on the phone, I don’t talk to them. It just doesn’t work. You don’t know who they are, where they came from, what they’re about or what they’re selling. There’s no affiliation and no connection.

Duncan: Exactly. You’re thinking, “How did you even get my name?” Ultimately, more importantly, from their perspective, it’s like, “What would you rather do? Spend all your time trying to convince new people? Why wouldn’t you just work with the people who are already convinced and then show them how to convince people on



your behalf? And you know what? They’ll do a way better job than you will anyway.”

Robert: That’s brilliant.

Duncan: The problem with that is that’s not consistent or conducive to instant gratification. It takes a bit of time to get to that point, but once you’re there, wow! The degree of fulfillment in your business just goes through the roof.

Robert: Duncan, tell me some of the specific activities, other than this whole initial process, that one can do to build those advocates. Take that example of the client you said who has few customers, some clients and a few advocates. What are the kinds of activities that you’re going to go about doing to turn some of those customers and clients into advocates, and then all future clients of course?

Duncan: Fair enough. There’s both proactive and reactive deliverables, but I want to back up first because there’s an important distinction based on time efficiencies and cause and effect.

As you know, just by going through our book, our entire approach is rooted in immutable laws and principles that are universal to all of us in business. One of them is the Pareto principle, which is also known as the 80/20 rule.

Robert: That’s also the name of your company, the Pareto Platform.

Duncan: Yeah, our CRM is called the Pareto Platform, and our consulting company is called Pareto Systems. It’s because of the Pareto principle, also known as the 80/20 rule. Of course, most people know about 80% of their business



comes from about 20% of their clients, and about 20% of their business comes from about 80% of their clients. That varies based on the nature of the business.

Here’s what’s interesting. It goes deeper than that. First of all, 80% of your productivity stems from about 20% of your activity, which means you make about 80% of your income every day in about an hour.

Robert: That’s interesting.

Duncan: It’s a collection of things that are real defining moments of truth in your business every day. You’re spending an hour with me on the phone. This is an important hour for you. It’s an important hour for me. There’s other things you can be doing, but this is important.

As it relates to client development, we tell our clients, “Look. You have to be consistently investing 80% of your time on the 20% of your clients who generate 80% of your business.”

Let’s come back to our initial point where we said that common sense isn’t a common practice. That sounds so obvious, but very few people do it. Most people end up spending 80% of their time on the 80% of their clients who generate just 20% of the business.

Robert: Another thing in marketing is that we go chasing a lot of people and putting a lot of time into it instead of nurturing existing clients who could bring us more business and more referrals.

Duncan: That’s a very good observation as well. A lot of business professionals will leave their clients twisting in the wind



as they strive to bring on new clients rather than, as you said, nurturing those existing relationships and moving them up the loyalty ladder to that advocate status.

Robert: That’s from the mindset of, “This is a transaction. I got the client. I got the money. On to the next.” That way, they stay customers and clients but never really advocates.

Duncan: That’s exactly it. So, every business professional needs to have a service matrix, which is a listing of their service deliverables, tied to their client classification.

Your triple-A clients, the clients who take great action with you, who have a great attitude about your relationship and who are advocates now, are the most deserving.

Double-A clients who maybe take good action and have a good attitude but have no history of advocacy, they deserve a lot of your time.

With a single-A client who takes good action but maybe has a bad attitude and no advocacy, you live by the rules you set there. Then you go to B, C, D clients. You cannot be spending time with a B client at the expense of an A, double-A or triple-A client. You just can’t. They don’t deserve the same level of service. Otherwise, you’re just diluting yourself trying to be all things to all people. It’s just not in your enlightened self-interest.

We’re not trying to be elitist or disrespectful. It’s just you’re trying to clone and replicate your favorite clients. They are the most deserving.



Robert: There’s something here I’d like to interject. Some people are probably saying, “I’m a coach. I work with a client. I get paid $X and hour. They’re all kind of the same to me. I’m working with them all.”

I have a different model. I work with 16 clients in a year with one program that lasts a year. Therefore, I’m not thinking of hours. I’m thinking of assisting them, my relationship with them, being available to them, giving them useful stuff.

Some models work a lot better for this than, “I’m just trying to get my hours in with a particular client.” When you’re a financial advisor, you’re thinking through scenarios, where to invest the money and all that kind of thing, right? That’s where you’re putting in the extra time.

Duncan: There’s no question that the aspiration level of the business professional, their capacity, there’s a lot of different factors. See, there’s two different approaches. There’s the person who’s trying to see how big they can get, and then there’s the other who’s trying to see how small they can stay.

Obviously, the service matrix to the small individual is not nearly as relevant as the person who’s obviously continually striving to grow their business. That’s where the dilution really lives and the problems occur is for the person who has that aspirational element.

Robert: To continue to offer the kind of level of service, they need to bring in other people or do a lot of different things than just a one-person shop.

Duncan: That’s exactly it.



Robert: Let me ask a quick question of your book. Is most of what we’ve talked about today in Breakthrough Business Development?

Duncan: Well, that book is our manifesto stemming from years of working with a variety of different knowledge-for-profit professionals, accountants, lawyers, consultants, financial advisors and planners, wholesalers, so there’s no question that that is a reflection of what we have been telling them to do over the years.

It’s not theoretical. It’s not on trial. It is framed in the form of a very methodical and sequential process that can be replicated.

Robert: Well, you’re speaking my language. That’s what I’m writing about all the time. I looked over the book and I’m going to read it in more detail, but it’s impressive. The process is there and the principles are there. I think for everyone on this call, this is a book you should definitely pick up. We’ll put a link to it at Amazon. We’ll also put a link to your site.

Duncan, before we go, there’s one other area here that I think is important, and that is building a cadre, so to speak, of professional referrers, other people who are not your clients, but they could also become advocates.

These, for you, could be people like accountants or other business professionals who would love to have a good source for a service like yours and would happily refer, but it just doesn’t happen by sitting down with someone, handing them a brochure and saying, “Just send me referrals.”



Tell me a little bit about how you find and nurture those kinds of relationships.

Duncan: Not to oversimplify this either, but it really comes down to just a commitment to very clear communication. When your philosophy is solid and your vision is solid, what you have to do is communicate that to as many people as you can in a way that’s positioned as value and as a service and a benefit to them and the people they know.

Ultimately, you have to execute. When that first endorsement happens, the world has to stop. It’s like there’s a red phone under a glass jar on your desk, the bat line. The world stops because you know that that can become a pattern in time.

You will have seen this too, Robert, over the years that how many times have you talked to somebody who you give them a good idea and they say, “Oh, yeah. I used to do that. It really worked”? In essence, “It worked so well I stopped.”

Robert: It’s funny that that happens, but it does.

Duncan: That’s what separates the best from the rest. The best identify what works. They also identify what doesn’t. And they constantly repeat and refine and reflect on what works over the long haul. That’s how you get in a groove. That’s how you have that breakthrough.

Robert: Exactly.

When one of these professionals refers you to someone, or calls you or connects in whatever way, how do you reward them?



Duncan: That’s a good point. Let’s create a scenario here. You’ve just become a client of mine. I have a service matrix, an advocate process, for fast-tracking you to advocate status very, very quickly.

It begins with then sending out a thank-you card. I mean, literally, you’re not even out the door and I’m already writing out that card. I don’t wait. I don’t let the Law of Diminishing Intent kick it. I view this as important.

First of all, you have to do this because this is a moment of truth, and not paying tribute to these moments is like not feeding the goose that lays the golden eggs. But the key is in how you say thanks, because you can’t look needy. You have to basically project to your clients that, “I don’t need the money. I’m in this business because I love this business.”

Don’t say thanks for the productivity. Don’t say thanks for the business. That’s what a lot of people do. They say, “Dear Robert. Thanks for the business.” I mean, it just conjures up this image of me running around my office getting high fives.

Robert: (Laugher) Yes!

Duncan: So, if you don’t pay tribute to the productivity, you pay tribute to the activity. In other words, I would say, “Robert, I really enjoyed meeting with you today. I’m looking forward to a great relationship. I loved hearing about your new boat. Welcome aboard!”

In other words, I go right back to F.O.R.M. It’s something you said to me about your life. I downplay the business and up-play the chemistry and the relationship.



Now, the person who referred you to me, I’m going to send him a card, but I’m not going to say, “Thanks for the referral.” I’m going to send him a card, and I’m going to say, “You know what? Thanks for introducing Robert to me. We had a great meeting. It’s obvious why you two get along so well. Hopefully, at some point in the future I can take both of you out for lunch.” Or something like that, where I’m downplaying the business and really playing up the rapport and the chemistry and the relationship.

Sometimes, if you’re fortunate enough to get these sort of serial referrers, these people who send a lot of people to you, sometimes you might even want to send a gift. I’m not saying to get into the gift-giving business, but always be thinking about the impact and the shelf life of what you send. The impact is, “Is it speaking to them based on F.O.R.M.?” Don’t just go through the motions.

Let’s say, Robert, that you introduce someone to me, and then you introduce someone else to me, and I remember in a conversation you told me that you love fine wine. So, I might send you a one-year subscription to a fantastic wine magazine.

Robert: That’s better than a bottle of wine because it has more shelf life.

Duncan: Shelf life is every month for a year, and the impact is fantastic. It’s better than me sending you a gift card to a restaurant or, like you said, a bottle of wine. Maybe you’ll lay that bottle down and have it later, but you know what I’m saying. You get the gist.

There are other moments of truth, too, that are F.O.R.M.-related. You might tell me about something that



happened. Let’s say one of your kids gets accepted to a great college, or you might tell me that something not-so-nice happened.

I was talking to a client not long ago, and his client kind of bared her soul about something that went on in her life and wasn’t pleasant. I said, as I’ve said several times before, to my client, “You’ve got to send your client something.”

I told him to send the book When Bad Things Happen to Good People. It’s a really good little book. Every client who’s done that has gotten such a nice touching response because it’s such a meaningful connection. It just basically says, “Look. I’m thinking about you, and you matter to me.”

Robert: It also showed you were really listening, were really present in that conversation and cared enough to reflect that.

Duncan: Absolutely.

Robert: That’s very powerful.

Duncan, this has been one of the most valuable interviews. I interview a lot of people and they’re all great, but you really know your stuff. You have a real depth to this.

The whole thing is really about relationships. It’s taking care of people. It’s making a difference, and then structuring your whole process to reflect that. That’s what we’re really looking for. It’s not just another little strategy, another little tip. It’s a system. It’s a process. It takes time,



work and some investment on your part, but the payoff is immeasurable.

I really want to thank you for that.

Duncan: I love talking about this because the bottom line is I run my own business. This is a lot easier to talk about than it is to do. I know we all have a tendency to drift and get lured down certain paths based on opportunity and issue avoidance and so on. I just want to remind everybody that “done” is better than “perfect.”

Just get some things done. Take it up. Elevate. Raise the bar just even a little bit. Make some adjustments and refinements, especially in this economy that we’re in. You’ll find yourself moving in the direction to a breakthrough, and it will rejuvenate your whole enthusiasm about your business.

I really appreciate being invited on. Hopefully we get a chance to do it again.

Robert: Thank you very much, Duncan. What’s the best website to visit for you?

Duncan: www.ParetoSystems.com is a good place to start. We have another site. It’s called www.BreakthroughBusinessDevelopment.com. That’s a companion to that book, Breakthrough Business Development. There’s recordings like this one and various calls I’ve had with coaches. There’s some good actionable tools and some articles on there. It’s just a nice little support tool for business people to use as they try to move their business forward.



Robert: That’s fantastic. Duncan, thank you very much. I’ve really appreciated the time you’ve taken to do this.

Duncan: My pleasure, and right back at you, Robert. I appreciate your time, too.

Robert: Great.

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