HO!"!F_.�.:.!.r_,,_ ;-_. • ..,_\· o·_.-? . . :\L liT"'.' '.t.•o;;_y. >.�QO,J"•',t!'L, (I> 1 J � -·J • , - \oc_w�•toP md�h eo��;·:mnit.v 192.'·=··1975)

Intorvlm-ree �H�a�n�o�n�a4n�d��A�n�n�B�P.�r�g�e�r�--------�--------�-----��--------�

Intorvic-;-r(;1r Bonnie ffantor -----------------

Da to ( s ) of . in tervi ril-;__,..A_,_11'"t'g'r"'�""'' ..._J t...._ ..... l.,.5'"',---�Jl...:9;�..,7r-7t---------�----·-------.-' · Sotting. (pln.ce of' int8rvieH, people present, :tmorossions)

The interview took place. in the .Berger's li vingroom qn -E _s.pl-a:nade .D�iv�. The sessibn· preceded uninterrupted�_wit� no one �lse · pr�sent. · Mr. Berger; though ve�y �illing .t6-�o �he interview�

.was not andeasy subject. His an�wers were � ften abrupt and he seem.ed reluctant to discuss mat�er.s -in depth. M�s·�·: Berger , �as a bit more ill at ease, but-mo�e willtng·tb.delv�·into matters�

- ·

l?ackgro"Lmd · of' intervie"t-re e

M�. Bieger wa� born in. �oche�ter in 1919 and �rew up ib brighton; After attending Cornell and working in the· .arrriy, he returned to the. family wholesale grocery .business which has expanded many times stnc.e that time. Mrs. Berger was bo rn �."n Cologgne Germany in 1919 .and remained in .·Ge !r'rnany uhtil 1938 �vhen she· .. c�me to New York • . She came to Rochester with her ��sban� in 1946 . . . Since that<time, she hAs b �come- rn6�e-and more �ctiv�

·

.within. the Jewi�h community . . Df special·intere st·ia· her rQl� · . ·. in the. women's diRision of th e tFed e ra tion ·and her role in·

I . 0 . � .L .... tJuelr lntJ eri' a l I1 group. . · .

· n-cervJ.eN· a.os vrac... · · . ·

·

Discussed in depth ·are Mrs. Berger's life· �h· and de��rture fro� Germ any, their feelings and opini.o.ns abo"ut the-necessity and/or lack of rieces�itj- for Jewi�h education, ·th� cha�ge� in the . Jewish community of Roche·ster and their ins:ti tutiohal affiliations·. wi'thin the organized .:[ewis.h co"mmuni.ty. Of. spe·cial inte

.rest

is. Mrs.· Berger's. work _in .the Interfaith ·counc"il. ·

Intervie·:-r index (corresponding to tape nurnbers, . sides -of' tape_,· a...'Yld cassatt recorder n"l,lr:lbe:l."'s)

xSocial history - .

x Demogranhic/residenti�l - . ·-· .

':'-. -_�cononu,e

X Poli ticnl/civic

�Zioni sra/I :::racJ.

Intervio�-r lo�--

. X Je�·Ti sh COl'1!11U.ni ty

. :.:_co!.r:n.lL.'1ity rel2.tions

x JeHish edu.cation

x Anti-serr:i tis:.1

\

) COY•-r,.. · ""'o ...... -1l·n,... t '- '·' n' ,...,} ,.,.- s •·J·a�'"'s or- '- · n""' ...; n··� C'"''""C'"',_i- l"'""··· --c"•"r .,.... a . -· t..:J_., �•··· . , o t·::\Y.•� :..1 • . J.,r , ..:. .. ,, .. l-·.1 ·� 7 .. . ··-�-,�·t· t. v ._ .•. o:r. l� ·�: b) ·'inc)'J····--r r ,.. .r-.,.,.. ,.,nc , . .... 0 O.._,n...,.,.,,. -·,n ?·� .-:.. Por-1-,"'c•.._·.,.r co·�··nLlnl"•·-.­-�.. . t . L '. J . .. !�.... ·--' .. t .. _ '-... �a·J t," v_ ..:. .. ... .. , _4 v., . ..:.. _L ......... _, .. .;:) v�.. ··""· ... •�J

Mr. and Mrs. Hanan Berger p. 1

THE LAST TWO SIDES OF THE TAPES DID NOT RECORD SO THAT THE

MATERIAL REMAINING FROM THE INTERVIEW IS SCANT AND CAN BE

FOUND ONLY ON SIDE 1 OF THE FIRST TAPE�

TAFEl SIDE A

Biographical data Mrs. Berger--born in Cologne Germany in 1919,

Family was very reform ahd was never affiliated with a temple .. She fled Germany in 1938 and came to NY. She came to Rochester with her husband in 1946

Mr. Berger-- Born in Rarihester in 1919 Attended n0mber 20 school, lived on Grant St. Family moved to Brighton in 1929, attended Brighton High School

·

Attended Cornell, Entered Army in 1942 and returned to Rochester in 1946 As a child belonged to the Big Shul, then Temple Beth El Aaron Soloman as teacher . Attended Talmud Torah and then hebrew school at Beth El

Occupation--Mr. Berger entered the family business a whole-sale grocery which has since diversified. .

They now have nursing homes, beer distributorships and other enterprises

Demographic--Settled on Dar+.mouth St. in 1946, moved to Varina Dr. in Brighton and then to Esplanade, also in Brighton.

Mrs. Bergers early perceptions .of Rochester

Joined Brith Kodesh because Rabbi Bernstein had married them in New York

Activities--Support the cult�ral community--RPO, Art gallery, Community 0hest

Strong all�gience to the Jewish community Active in the Federation, family service, Welfare fund, Home and Infirmary,and JCC

Changes in the organized Jewish community

Split between the German and East European Jews,

Importance of Israel for community here

JCC--its move, effect on the Irondequiot community, relation between the Federation and the JCC, move to make it more Jewish

Jewish education in Rochester Reform vs. Orthodox Judiasm Changes in Reform Judiasm--split within the congrpgation over it

becoming more traditional.

- ,l

t'

-· ·

Department of History

i!1.t:. Ui'ILV.t'...t<0L".L'X Ul'- J<.UCttt;:i'l't;.t{ River Campus Station

Rochester, Ne�v York · 14627

This recording of oral history interviews may be used by research�rs in accordance with procedures established by the University of Rochester librari It is understood that the following provisions apply during your lifetime. tnitia l those that apply and cross out those that do not.

The recording may be used only w·i th my Hri t·ten permission.

The recording may be cited or quoted only with my written permission.

This tape may be reproduced in vlhole or in part only by my wri·tten permission.

Understood and �greed to

�/; ·tcUdM { intervie\ver) I

- ·

..

/J-v;r,f' Be,. 1--� 3-er)

s_�

'1 � ) I I

/

?-----._,

�I

.,

�nte�v�ew w�th HANON AND ANNE BERGER August 15, 1977 Bonnie Kantor

Interview I Tape I Side A

Page 1

Q. I'd like to begin with just some basic biographical data, where each of you

were born, when, and we can get into a little of your family situation, when

you were growing up, where your parents are from, this kind of thing.

Would you like to begin Mrs. Berger?

AB. All right. I was born in Cologne, Germany, and that was in 1919. I lived

there, I lived in Cologne until I was close to 18 years old. And, I grew

up in the Hitler era, and quit school very early because it was impossible

for me to stay in high school. And, I then, since I was under age, I was

an apprentice in a ready-to-wear store in Germany, Nobody can work unless

they're an apprentice until you are sixteen or eighteen, I've even forgotten.

So, I went • • • I was an apprentice, you also have go through trade school,

the state sends you to a trade school when you're under age. And, then I

came to this country, and lived in New York. My first job •

Q. I'd like to backtrack just a minute,

AB. Yea, sure, all right.

Q. In Germany, were your family an Orthodox Jewish • • •

AB. No. Very normal, Reformed. Very Reformed. Actually, we were not • . • I can

never remember their being affiliated with a Temple. My mother came from a

more traditional home, my father didn't. Although, my father was Bar Mitzvahed.

And, the family was always Jewish, but we didn't belong to a Temple. And, the

only religious instructions I had was private lessons at home. I never went to

a Sunday school or anythnng like that. A woman came to the house and she

taught me a little Hebrew and a little Jewish history, of which I've forgotten

Interview with Hanan and Anne Berger �age 2

�.

Q.

�.

Q.

(Continued) everything. And, anything else you1d like to know?

What was your economic situation?

I'd say we were upper middle class.

And, why did you stay that long in Germany, you stayed till 137?

�. Yea, I came over in 138 , Well, frankly, I didn't have anybody • • , You have

to have a visa in order to emigrate to any country, and there was nobody to

give me a visa. We didn't have any relatives who, you know, lived in America

or England you couldn't get a work permit, if you would go to England, you

couldn't work at all. And, also when you live in that situation, for some

reason, actually it took that long to get a visa from the • , . it took a

couple of years to get it all processed and • • , it wasn't very easy to

leave Germany. They made it very difficult, and whatever you took out, you

had to pay that kind of money, the same amount to the German government and

money was very, very tight at that point, because my parents had lost every­

thing, business, everything. And, at that point already, it was difficult,

with housing, people lost their apartments and moved in with another family.

And, I left and all kinds of friends and family living with my folks, while

they still had a little place.

Q. Did you come over alone?

�. I came over alone, yes. I had a sister who emigrated a year before I did,

and she • . , actually she married in Germany, in Cologne, and through her

husband's family she got out and I got out, They, in turn, gave me an

affidavit which wasn't too hard to come by because I was young and healthy and

they didn't have to • , . it was easier for me to get an affidavit than for

my parents. So, l came alone and luckily, in the early 1940's I did get my

parents out, I never thought that, you know, I actually said good-bye and

that was forever. I was lucky to get them out.

�nterv�ew with Uanon and Anne Berger

Q. Was America the country you wanted to come to?

Page 3

AE. I think so, yes. I think so at that point. It's very difficult when you're

young and never really thought much about it, you know. And I had a life in

Germany and America seemed very far away and • • • I had absolutely no con­

ception of what it could be like here, only what I'd seen in the movies.

Q. Did you have a conception of what it might be like?

AB. Very little. Very little, frankly. I was amazed to see, when I came to

New York I figured that's all concrete, and I was amazed to see that there

were parks and you could drive, you know, for a half hour and be out in the

country. I just never thought of that. Thought it was all concrete.

Q. Did you speak English when you came?

AB. Yes, to a certain extent. I had English in school and also took private

lessons when I knew that I was going to emigrate. But, I used the Oxford

English, I was taught by English-speaking, English, you know • • •

Q. Uh, huh.

AB. And for that reason, when I first came over here, it took me about three days

to really understand anybody. I couldn't understand anybody, everybody was

talking so fast and pronounced words entirely different than I was taught.

So, it took a little while, but I did have a background.

Q. Did you continue to speak German in your home?

AB. No. When I came to this country, I made it my business only to speak English.

Q. And, you went and you lived with your sister and her husband?

AB. Only for about three days, and then I was able to get a job at the time as a

baby nurse, and I lived with the family. So, this way, I didn't need too much

English and this woman had a little knowledge of German. And, I brought up a

little boy there, so for three years I was that. Doing this until I felt safe

enough to go out and try to earn a living a different way.

�nterv�ew w�th H�non �nd Anne Berger

Q. What brought you to Rochester?

Page 4

AB. Well, I met my husband in New York and that brought me to Rochester. He, at

that time was in the Army, and was stationed in New York at the time when we

met. And, we married in New York, and when he came out of the Army, he went

back to his home town, and took me along as his wife. That's the way I came

here.

Q. I guess that brings us directly into your early history, Mr. Berger.

HB. I was born in Rochester. My father, I think he came to Rochester in about 1911,

and I was born in 1919. I have two older brothers and two older sisters. My

mother died when I was born, my father remarried and I was brought up from

about the age of two within the family. Before that, I was farmed out to,

I suppose, a wet nurse someone who could care for me. But, I've lived in

Rochester all of my life. Schooled at Number 20 School.

Q. Well, where did you live when you were growing up?

HB. Grant Street is the first street I can remember, I think my family lived on

Kelly Street when I was born.

Q. Was this in the Park Avenue area?

HB. No. No, just over off Joseph Avenue.

Q. Joseph Avenue.

HB. And, from Grant Street we moved out to Brighton when I was about 10. And,

fifth grade, I think, I entered Brighton and I went there through high school.

On to Cornell. Graduated from there in 1940 and went into the Army in '42.

Got out in '46, I think, and came back to Rochester to work and live.

Q. That was a very early time for a Jewish family to be living in Brighton, wasn't

it?

HB. Yes, there weren't • • • there weren't many Jewish classmates of mine in

Brighton.

lnterv�ew w�th Hanan and Anne Berger Page 5

Q. Why did your family move then. • • Was Brighton the place to move to?

HB. Yes. Upward mobility. Certainly much nicer than Grant Street.

Q. OK. What business was your father in?

HB. He was a wholesale grocer. When he carne to this country, I think, he carne to

New York and left for • . • became a peddler in the south. And, was in

Louisiana around New Orleans • • • carrying, I suppose, drygoods out of a

wagon, bartering for butter, eggs, and cheese and bringing them into the city,

and • • . Let's see. Carne to Rochester, I'm not certain whether his wife's family

was here in Rochester, or what brought him to Rochester. I think it might have

been that because he wanted to move in with his brother-in-law in the butter

and egg wholesale business. And eventually became a wholesale grocer.

Q. Is the business still, .

HB. No. We've been out now for probably 20 years.

Q. And, did you belong to a Temple in Rochester? Your family belong?

HB. Well, as a child we belonged to the Big Shul. Then we moved to Brighton, my

father joined Beth El.

Q. What do you mean by the Big Shul?

HB. You're not • . . You haven't been around very long?

Q. No.

HB. There was a Big Shul. Rabbi Karp will know, everyone will know where the

Big Shul was. On Ormond Street.

Q. OK.

AB. Is that the landmark?

HB. I think. I don't know whether Beth-Harnedresh Hachodosh is the successor to it,

but that may very well be.

Q. Is this an Orthodox shul?

HB. Yes.

lnte�v�ew w�th H�non �nd Anne Berger

Q. Why did they change to Beth El then? Because of locality?

Page 6

HB. Yes. Because moving into Brighton, it wasn't easy to get down to Ormond Street.

anymore. It was a lot easier to get to Beth El.

Q. This was a change in affiliations from Orthodox to Conservative?

HB. Yea, I don't think the affiliation was important to my father, and it certainly

wasn't to his children.

Q. Did you go to Hebrew School?

HB. Yea, I went to Talmud Torah. In the beginning, and then went to Hebrew School

at Beth El. I was Bar Mitzvahed at Beth El.

Q. I heard a story from one person who lived in Brighton. • • it was a little later

than this . • . They used to send a taxi cab from Beth El to pick the children up

in Brighton there were so few of them. Is that your experience, also?

HB. No, it wasn't. However, . . •

AB. Walk, huh?

HB. No. No. I really can't remember how I got to Beth El, I think I probably took

a bus down Monroe Avenue, but my father picked me up after classes, I would go

to the Park Avenue Library and wait and when he finished his day, which was

kind of late, 6 or 6:15, he'd pick me up at the library, brought me back home,

Q. Do you have any recollections of Hebrew School?

HB. Sure,

Q. Pleasant?

HB. Mixed, I guess. No, I think • • , well, I don't know, probably more on the

pleasant side than unpleasant. There was a little grocery store across the

street from Beth El where we got hard rolls and pickles, pickle sandwiches.

There w�s a nice group of classmates, I don't have any bad recollections of

the Hebrew School. Mr. Emanuel was one of our teachers. Rabbi Solomon. Not

the one who's presently at Beth El, but Aaron Solomon who is over on

Xnterv�ew w�th Hanon and Anne Berger Page 7

HB. (Continued) Joseph Avenue somewhere or St. Paul . • . he's a teacher there

now.

Q. Was your family religious at home?

HB. Not very observant, no. I think my stepmother's lit candles on Friday nights,

but I don't think we . • I don't recall keeping a kosher home. I don't recall

attending Friday evening services on any regular basis, and certainly not daily

services.

Q. And, when you said you attended Cornell, what business did you go into from

that? Did you start • • •

HB. The family business, which was wholesale groceries. And so went on to other

things, but . . • that was it.

Q. Oh, I see. And, when you came back to Rochester, where did you settle?

HB. First, while I was

AB. Dartmouth Street.

HB. Dartmouth Street.

AB. A furnished apartment, and we after we live here two weeks, our first son was

born. So, all of our children were born in Rochester ,

Q. Oh.

AB. And, then after that we lived on Varinna Drive in Brighton and then in this

house. That's it.

Q. How many children do you have?

AB. Three.

Q. You have a daughter, I know that.

AB. We have two grown sons. The oldest son is 31, the second one is 28, and our

daughter is 18.

Q. Do they live in Rochester?

Xnterv�ew w�th Hanan and Anne Berger Page 8

AB. One son lives in Rochester, the middle son. And, the older one lives in

Denver.

Q. Are you in close contact with • . •

AB. Mmm hmm . Yea.

Q. Are they married?

AB. The older son is married and is a lawyer out in Denver. And, the second son

is not married, but he lives in Rochester. And Lisa is just going off to

Michigan.

Q. Are you going to be lonely?

AB. Yes, yes.

Q. When you moved to • • . Or, when you lived on Dartmouth Street, did you move [.)

there • • • when you moved there, was the fact that that was a Jewish community

have any bearing on your decision. Or, was it a Jewish community?

AB. Yes, that's • it was a mixed community. At the time when we came to

Rochester, it was very difficult to get housing in a hurry, especially a

furnished apartment, which we needed at the time. Because we came, my husband

was discharged from the Army, and we decided instead of having that baby in

New York, we better come because he had to go to work and we may as well be

a family in Rochester. And, so everything was done in a great hurry. And,

we were lucky to be able to get a place for the time being until we kind of

got settled and felt that we could look for a home.

Q. What were your impressions of Rochester, never having been here?

AB. Well, at first I was quite apprehensive because I always lived in a very large

city, Cologne is a much larger city and I lived in New York for five years • • •

six years actually. And I was just a little, I was a little afraid that this

may be too small a town for me. But, I changed my mind very rapidly, and I

Interv�ew w�th Hanan and Anne Berger Page 9

AB. (Continued) think of Rochester as my home, and it would be the only

place I would call home. And, I love it here. I think it's a wonderful

city.

Q. Did you join Beth El as soon as you came?

HB. No. When we decided to get married, we were in New York. I was in the

service, stationed in New York. And, through the Army, I made contact with

a chaplain, who was, I think, the closest chaplain was at, I believe, was at

Fort Ogden, which is at the far end of Long Island. Who was willing to marry

us, was willing to come in or to have us come out there to get married, but

it was . . • we were negotiating, communicating via telephone. And, then

we learned that Rabbi Bernstein was in New York, in his capacity as head of

Chaplains, and contacted him and he was happy to marry us, Because he married

us, when we came to Rochester, we felt that we wanted to belong to his

congregation, and so we were affiliated there. By that time, I think one of

my brothers was already a member of B1rith Kodesh, the rest of the family

stayed at Beth El.

Q. And, did you remain at B1rith Kodesh?

AB. Yes. Yup. We're still members.

Q. So, do you consider yourselves Reform Jews?

AB. Yes.

HB. Yes.

AB. Definitely.

Q. Did coming to America effect your Judaism at all?

AB. Very much so, yes. When I grew up in Germany, I really • • • I knew I was

Jewish, and my family was always, . . , I can't recall anybody in the family

who wasn't Jewish, but it was • • • I didn't have that much schooling for two

reasons, because I • well I guess I just • • • I had • • • just didn't

lnterview with Hanon and Anne Berger Page 10

AB. (Continued) practice it that much • • • and • • • so I didn't really know

much about it. And, I felt actually Orthodox poeple • • • I felt kind of

uncomfortable with in Germany because they were rather foreign to me. And,

when I . then I . . . when I had to quit school my friends were not

Jewish and although many couldn't speak to me anymore because I was Jewish,

and before we were the dearest friends, and I realized, you know, that I was

completely alone and I had no friends. I didn't feel comfortable with the

Jewish people, I didn't know anyone, And, the others didn't want me anymore,

you know, and that was a very difficult time to grow up in, when you're a

teenager. And, when I came to this country, I think they, • • the thing I

remember most is that the first time I could say openly that I was Jewish,

without cringing, that was a very large accomplishment, of which shouldn't

now be proud, and from that time on, I got to be a very. , • I would say a

very concerned Jew.

Q. Did you ever give up belief in Judaism for any time?

AB. No.

Q. When you were leaving Germany?

AB. Never. We always knew that we were Jewish, and we had instructions at home,

but my parents didn't choose to belong to a synagogue and I think my mother

and my father were rather • • • they felt Jewish, but it almost bordered on

atheism. And, I've really gotten my strong Jewish feeling after I came to

Rochester, and through my husband and through his family. Not that they

were so religious • • • they weren't that observant, but they were very,

very conscious of their duties and the concerns towards their faith, and

really that's why I was taught,

Interv�ew w�th Hanan and Anne Berger Page 11

Q. Just to backtrack a bit, about your business • • . it was a wholesale grocery?

HB. Yes.

Q. And, where were you located?

HB. In the public market.

Q. I see.

HB. And, when that closed, why then we were into other things. Refrigerator

warehouses, and we had a wholesale beer business, and now we're in nursing

homes. We operate nursing homes in New York State.

Q. Do you operate any in Rochester?

H�, Right now we do, yes.

Q. That's interesting. You kept with the same people, your brother?

HB. Mmm, hmm . Most of these are family businesses. In the nursing homes, we

have other partners, all the family are involved.

Q. That's very interesting. Have you ever been involved with unions, then? In

your nursing home work? Local 99?

HB. Sure. Yes.

Q. Have you ever run into any trouble?

HB. Trouble? We've had organizing efforts that we have opposed and in only one

instance have we gone to an election, and we beat the union in that election.

Q. So, there's no unions?

HB. None in the nursing homes, no. In our other businesses, grocery business, we

dealt·with the Teamsters and the refrigerator warehouse, we deal with the

Teamsters Union, the Engineers Union.

Q. Have you ever had any strikes?

HB. When I was a child, when we organized the grocery business, there were strikes.

There haven't been any since.

�nte�v�ew w�th Hanon and Anne Berger

Q. And, have you �un �nto any difficulty now in the nursing homes?

Page 12

HB. Sure, like everyone else, we have difficulties. We've been audited and

investigated and that's all behind us, I think.

Q, Obviously, you're in a lot of different businesses. Do you belong to any

civic or political organizations?

HB. No. I've been active in business organizations. In the beer business, I

was active in the New York State Wholesale Beer Association. I was President

of that. In the nursing home business, I've been active in a group called

the Long-Term Care Adm�nistrators of New York State. I'm interested in that,

In local, civic enterprises outside the Jewish community, I haven't been

active.

AB. Not active, but you certainly support other, you know, causes,

HB. That's �ight. Community Chest, not much.

AB. Well, like the music association, RPO, art galle�y • • •

HB. Not actively.

Q. I see what you're saying, Do you see a need for an expansion of the nursing

home business?

HB. I assume so, certainly. I think this area probably should increase us and

there is a need.

Q. Are you running at full capacity in your nursing homes?

HB. Yes.

Q. And, what's the wait. to get into one these homes?

HB. I don't that there is a . there isn't a wait really, our beds are almost

always full, but there's a constant turnover and when a bed becomes available,

then some people from the hospital generally enter the home. Less often from

their own home into a nursing home.

Inte�view w�th Hanan and Anne Berge� Page 13

Q. And, Mrs. Berger, do you belong to any civic or political organizations?

AB. No. Also, just as a member we sort of support all the obvious organizatonns

in town.

Q. Right, I see.

AB. And, politically, also, I don't really do anything in the Democratic Pa�ty,

but I am affiliated with it.

Q. But, you do belong to the Philharmonic.

AB. Yes, everything just about, museums, art gallery, GEVA, what else can we • • •

the library, all those . • . yes.

Q. And, just a general question leading into your affiliations in the Jewish

community • • . Do you both feel a special allegiance to the Jewish community?

Is it important to you?

AB. Yes.

HB. Yes.

Q. Has that been a constant or when did that develop?

HB. I think it's been constant. I think I've been active in the Welfare Fund

since I • • • since we came back to Rochester. And, through the Welfare Fund

and our Temples, and the Family Service and the Jewish Home & Infirmary and

the Jewish Community Center. Just about everything that's active in the

Jewish community. We've participated either as Board members or officers.

Q. Have you seen any changes in the Jewish • • • the organized Jewish community

over this time?

HB. Yea, obvious ones. I think our initial exposure in the Jewish community

organizations, the split between the German Jewish community and the Eastern

European community was quite evident, certainly that has changed, We haven't

been active long enough to remember when there were two orphan asylums or that

kind of thing, but certainly we were aware of the differences of the different

�nte�v�ew w�th Hanon and Anne Berger

HB. (Continued) attitudes. And, that's pretty much past,

Q. I see. Do you • . • have you seen any other changes, Mrs. Berger?

Page 14

AB. Yes. I've seen them in the • • • I find the Jewish community is much stronger

than it used to be. I think we attract many more people to . • , I think the

change came with the need for Israel, when Israel came into being, I think that

has been a tremendous change. And, I can see over the years that we attract

an entirely different type of person now. We attract a lot of young, intelligent

people who have a great commitment towards the Jewish community here at home

and in Israel and anyplace. And, who give a great deal of their time and

talents. And, I think years ago that wasn't there. There was a rather small

group who supported these causes.

Q. Do you think this is directly related to Israel?

AB. I think so. I think Israel, when Israel came into being, that kind of

strengthened the Jewish community. And that the need in Israel made us all

work that much harder because we all realized that without Israel, if Israel

should not be there anymore, there is not much hope for the rest of the Jews.

And, I think most Jews feel that strongly about that so that they are giving

more support. By giving more support to Israel, they're also learning about

the support which is needed in their own community and nationally. And the

more, there is much more education now. I think people aren't asked just to

join and to give money, they are taught why this money is needed so that

people get much more involved. And, I find a tremendous change is still

going on and, frankly, I am very proud of us.

Q, You are?

AB. A good community, yes,

Q. You mentioned that you belonged to the JCC, do you support it financially.

HB. Yes.

lnte�v�ew w�th Hanon and Anne Berger

AB. Yes.

Q. Did you approve of its move from Andrews Street?

HB. Surely.

Page 15

AB. I didn't; I didn't approve of the move. I didn't approve necessarily. , • I

mean I know. , , I could see that there had to be a move, and at the time I

felt very strongly that it was a dangerous thing to move into one area,

although I could see no solution, because you had to move someplace, and

somebody was going to get short-changed in the community. And Irondequoit is

the one who got short-changed, Also, I didn't approve of such an elegant

building at the time. I'm always very conservative, but it's here and we've

got to support it.

Q. Do you think they will be able to get out of the financial bind that they're

in?

AB. Well, I think of course with the help of the Federation, they can't do it

alone, and at the moment there's a fund-raising effort going on to wipe out

their debt, and I've got to be optimistic about it.

Q. Has their relationship to the Federation changed?

AB. Yes, very much so.

Q. Because of their financial problems?

HB. Yes.

AB. I think so, because of that and also because of leadership. I think many

people who are active at the Center also are active at the Federation. so

now it is much more , , . people wear several hats and therefore have a

broader feeling for different agencies. And, before, people sort of just .

either you work for the Center or you worked for the Federation or the

Jewish Home o� whatever it was, and the�e1s a great effort at the , , ,

�nte�y�ew w�th H�non and Anne Berger Page 16

AB. (Continued) well, for the last couple of years already, to combine, to

make everybody feel we're all Jews and we have one community which has all

these problems. Have to iron it out together, you know.

Q. Do you think if it wasn't for their financial bind they would have tried to

remain autonomous?

HB. I think so.

AB. I think so, yes, I think they had always. , , always had , , , you can't. , ,

if you can't make it by yourself, on your own, well you're just not

independent anymore.

Q. Do you wish it had. Do you wish there were any changes in the JCC as far as

what's accomplished there and what their priorities are?

HB. I can't speak for it because I haven't . I've been off the Board for a

long time and I don't know really what their priorities are, , •

AB. Well, I can speak on it, to a certain extent because I am on the Board there

now, And, I have been active, mainly in the arts field at the Center, And,

my personal feeling is that there's a great drive to make it a very Jewish­

oriented agency, And, the�e1s a tremendous drive in bringing Jewish programming

and to expose the community to their roots, actually. And, but that goes into

almost a more Orthodox feeling, a great emphasis is put on making people

proud of their Yiddish language, if that's their background, even if it isn't,

you know and so on. I find that part a little difficult for me because I1m

not that much of an observant Jew, I'm a very concerned Jew, like I told you

before, but that part of �t for my own use, I could do with a little less of

that influence, I don't have to constantly be reminded that I'm Jewish, I

feel that I know that and I would prefer a more, I don't know, freer atmosphere.

That it wasn't so very much one-sided, I can see the direction, it's going

�nte�y�ew w�th Ranon and Anne Berger Page 17

AB. (Continued) more and more • • , you know, they're going more and more

into that direction because for many people feel so very strongly that unless

we teach our children a good foundation of Judaism, that we lose them. And

that, I think, is the feeling.

Q. Do you feel differently than that?

AB. Yes, I do. I don't feel that you , , , I feel you, • , things have to come

natural, I feel that if you • • • if it isn't in you to have a very observant

home, and if you do it because of something you were told to do, then it

isn't going to come out good, you know. It has to have a real feeling for it.

And, I don't know what the answer it. I have seen children who come from very

observant homes who were very rebellious, and I have seen some who were very

lucky with their children and who, you know, sort of conformed and carried on

exactly the way they were taught, taught by their home atmosphere.

Q. What kind of Jewish education did you want, for example, for your children?

AB. Well, our children had all the obvious Jewish education, went to religious

school at B'rith Kodesh, went to • • . they all were Bat and Bar Mitzvahed.

They were confirmed, and actually I felt very strongly about it that they

should have much more of a background than I have. And, then they could do

whatever they want at that point. They were adults. And, the result of it

is that all our children feel very Jewish, but they're not very observant,

although the youngest one, I think has a little stronger feeling than her

brothers had. Although that has to be seen now that she's going away to

college, what her direction takes. I think once a young person goes away

from the home, it all depends which she goes then,

Q, Do you feel the same way, Mr. Berger, about Jewish education?

�nte�v�ew w�th Ranon and Anne Berger Page 18

HB. Yea, pretty much. I'm not sure what • • • I'm certainly convinced that

Orthodox Jews are not better Jews than Reform Jews, I'm satisfied that

the religious education that our children got at B1rith Kodesh was as much

as I cared, as I felt was necessary for them to have. I don't think you can

prove any point about it by saying that they are not now, the boys are not

now observant Jews. They certainly identify as Jews, and I think that our

daughter who has had the same kind of education will be much more observant

than they were for whatever reasons. I don't think the school has changed

that much. So I'm satisfied that for my children and given my choice, B1rith

Kodesh provides an adequate Jewish religious background.

Q. If, as it seems to be doing . • • the enrollment in B1ri�h Kodesh, as well as

the other temples, in their education program is going down, rapidly, • ,

HB. What do you mean by that?

Q. Well, from what I've been told, the steady decline in the number of students

enrolled is. • .

HB. Considering the declining population , that isn't • • ,

AB. Gee, I • . ,

Q, Proportionately enrolled, • ,

AB. I can't • • •

HB. I'm not aware of that , • •

AB. Because I think that these, my daughter's class, was certainly very large,

much larger than her brothers, and the next year they anticipate a much

larger class. And, I think it

HB. No, enrollment in the B'rith Kodesh school is going down, dear, There isn't

any question that we have fewer children enrolled in the school this year than

a year ago, and a year ago. , •

lnte�v�ew w�th Hanan and Anne Berger

AB. Well, that's because of the war babies then, right?

Q. Do you think it's just the population?

HB. Yea, I think it's . . •

AB. Yea.

HB. numbers, I don't think it's lack of interest.

AB. Actually, the • , .

HB, Hillel is certainly grow·ing.

Page 19

AB. Yea. And, I think B'rith Kodesh claims that the education is better, the

Jewish education is better than it used to be, and the results seem to be

better than . • . • they feel is better than . the children retain more

of what they're learning. And, because of new methods, which are being

used, I think like everything else they're learning what the needs are, and

how. , , what young people best react to, and I think our daughter had a very

happy experience, Religious education more so than her brothers.

Q, Do you think there's a intimate connection between what a child gets out of

their Sunday school or Hebrew school education and the response of the

parents at horne and their observances at horne • . • how they report Judaism and

how observant they are in some respect? What I'm saying is if you do not

have anything at horne and you send the child for six hours, what is it

going to do?

AB. Well, our children were always exposed to a Jewish horne, and we observed the

holidays. We observe Friday nights, I'd say, loosely. Not, not the way it

should be done because we're not always horne on Friday night, you know. But,

I think it's probably of a great help to a child if it's an observant horne,

but, nevertheless, I think the kind of Jewish horne we have provided for our

children, especially now with our daughter, it's easier to remember you know,

lnte�v�ew w�th Ranon and Anne Berger Page 20

AB. (Continued) because it's just • • • she just growing up • • • and she

felt very secure with us. Our feeling towards the temple and she got lots

out of it. And, it depends on a child, too. And, it depends very much on

the teacher. If, like the last year she had a marvelous teacher and I think

that teacher probably laid a marvelous foundation for her.

Q. Have you seen any changes, well in specifically B1rith Kodesh, more generally

in Reform Judaism?

AB. Yes. Yes, I would say there's a great change to more traditional. There's

much more Hebrew offered in the services and the children are, I think,

using much more Hebrew. And, many more.

put on holiday celebrations.

Q. Is this what the congregation wanted?

there's much more emphasis on • • •

AB. I think there's two sides to that. There are people who want it, and there

are people who are not happy with it. I think B'�ith Kodesh has, like most

congregations, has two elements there, who are not always seeing eye-to-eye.

Q. Does the change towards traditionalism have anything to do with the changing

of our lives?

HB. I don't think so. I think it's change in the congregational attitudes and

it may not be, it may not reflect weight of numbers, but loud voices, or

people who are . • . who care more about what they get from their temple.

I think that • . . I don't care about seeing it become more traditional. I

don't want to see yamulkees and taliffs in temple--and I don't care about

having more Hebrew in the service, aside from the fact that Rabbi Bernstein

married us, one of the things I enjoyed about B1rith Kodesh was being able to

understand the service. And, I don't care about sitting through long pasaages

of Hebrew that I don't understand. But, the people who want it are more

�nte�y�ew w�th Hanan and Anne Berger Page 21

HB. (Continued) vocal about it than I am, and they're having their way.

I don't think that the Rabbi could have led us any differently, and I

think, well, we • • • Philip Bernstein did. the change started to

take place when Philip Bernstein was the rabbi. And, the point that you

asked about earlier about observant homes. Well, I'm not sure that you

asked it that way, about the support a child gets from the home. I am

satisfied that the support we offered was a strong identification of

being Jewish, and I couldn't offer a strong observant 'identification

because I don't feel it. Putting on a show, it wasn't anything that we

wanted to do or one that would be productive.

Q . . So you think that the temple is moving more towards Conservative Judaism?

HB. Yes, although I'm sure that they'll maintain whatever the technical differences

between Reform and Conservative Judaism, whether everything was revealed at

one time from the Bible, or it's still being revealed. If that's the key

point of the difference, I'm not sure that it is. (Some laughter)

Q. Do you belong to a country club?

HB. We belong to Irondequoit Country Club. Yes.

Q. So, is your affiliation with the Community Center more supporting it, while

you use the facilities at Irondequoit Country Club?

HB. Mine is. Anne uses the Center a great deal more than I do.

AB. I don't use the country club, you know, unless a social gathering, � do • • •

END OF SIDE A, TAPE I

I I