general topics :: joel osteen doesnt believe john 14:6

General Topics :: Joel Osteen doesnt believe John 14:6

Joel Osteen doesnt believe John 14:6, on: 2005/7/8 8:10In a June 20th interview on the international cable television program Larry King Live, the pastor of one of America'slargest churches said that he does not know who goes to heaven or who goes to hell.

When asked if atheists go to heaven, Joel Osteen of Lakewood Church in Houston, Texas, replied, "I'm going to let Godbe the judge of who goes to heaven and hell" (Charismanow.com, June 30). When asked where Jews or Muslims go if they don't accept Jesus Christ, Osteen replied, "You know, I'm very careful about saying who would and wouldn't go to heaven; I don't know."

In a letter posted to his web site, Osteen later apologized for being "unclear on the very thing in which I have dedicated my life." He said: "In my desire not to alienate the people that Jesus came to save, I did not clearly communicate the convictions that I hold so precious."

In fact, in his statements on Larry King Live Osteen was indeed communicating the core conviction of his church-growthphilosophy, which is to preach "positive truth." He has not drawn a crowd of tens of thousands by preaching clearly on eternal Hell as the Lord Jesus Christ did, and even in his "apology" Osteen did not plainly state that those outside of Christ go to an eternal fiery Hell.

When Osteen packed out the Coliseum in Charlotte, North Carolina, in March of this year, a local news reporter enthused, "Osteen doesn't rail against gays or thump a Bible, like so many others do" ("Evangelist: Don't Worry, Be Happy," TheCharlotte Observer, March 8, p. E1). Osteen's message was, "Make a decision before you leave this place, you're going to get happy where you are."

This is a direct fulfillment of 2 Timothy 4:3-4: "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears, and they shall turn away their ears from the truth and shall be turned unto fables."

Beware of ear tickling preachers who are willing to give a wicked, apostate generation a soft, new kind of Christianity that we do not see in Scripture.

Krispy

Re: Joel Osteen: Liar, Deciever, Wimp ... or all of the above?, on: 2005/7/8 8:32By the way... Larry King asks these same questions to every single Christian "leader" he has on his show. He's done it for years. Only Jerry Falwell had the ... well... guts... to answer correctly. The Grahams, Rick Warren, Pat Robertson, etc all squirmed over the years and would not give the Truth that is found in scripture.

If these jokers arent prepared to answer this question that King asks of all of them... then they need to avoid going on that show.

It's a disgrace.

Krispy

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Re: - posted by Eli_Barnabas (), on: 2005/7/8 8:43One day we all will be interviewed by the KING of kings.

Re: Joel Osteen: Liar, Deciever, Wimp ... or all of the above? - posted by Joshua99 (), on: 2005/7/8 8:46Yes, I agree! I stand with you with this new "Fear of man, rather than God" gospel. We don't want to preach and teach the Truth because we will become outcasts, loose members of our churches, have problems within our leadership over doctrine. If we are called to be God's "Spokeman" for the Truth and defend it, and don't??? Woe unto us! You see, I'm rightin the middle of this problem in my church, where I'm a worship leader/guitarist and teacher. The teaching of God's Wordis poor at best! In a spirit-filled church at that! I been asked not to make waves by some brothers, I may be asked to leave the church, as a result of pointing out hypocrisy in the leadership and pulpit. The fear of man, dominates the American church today, lets only preach the positive word!, I'll over-look your sin, if you will over-look my sin mentality! Rubbish!

Re: Joel Osteen: Liar, Deciever, Wimp ... or all of the above? - posted by crsschk (), on: 2005/7/8 10:28Is this necessary? Is there no tact left among us?

This tendency to drag this forum down into the gutter with these kinds of things. Though many would surely agree withthe problems inherent within the context here, the ease of character assassination and slander despite all that. Who is itthat we think we are and Who is it that we belong to?

Luk 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

Forget the defenses and the 'offending', that's not the issue. Just think about what this looks like to the rest here and to those outside coming to this site. And take a look inside as well. Is it worth it, are you grieved or feeling a bit smug and superior over all this, it certainly gives off that impression. Think about it.

Re: - posted by earnestlycontend (), on: 2005/7/8 13:17I'm usually with you Crosscheck, and yes, I'm tired of all the bickering on this site too. It's not very spiritually edifying, but I do think it has its place. We may give it more of a place than it deserves, though.

There is a time to point out those that are propagating falsehood in the church.

Paul even called them by name and warned the church of them:

1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: 1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

2Th 3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

Kendal

Re: - posted by sermonindex (), on: 2005/7/8 13:35

Quote:-------------------------One day we all will be interviewed by the KING of kings.-------------------------

VERY good brother Eli.

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Re: Osteen - posted by moreofHim (), on: 2005/7/8 13:43I agree that we should not "name call" and we do have to be careful about our wording here.

But, the Lord seems to be laying it on my heart very heavily that we must not be afraid to take a stand against what is false and what is being toted as "gospel" today. When there is no mention of the cross, of repentance- there is no gospel.

Thousands are flocking to this easy believism, "just say and it and believe it", motivational, "what can I get from God" gospel.

After some of the persecution I have faced about my own stand in the faith, i am at the point where I either have to standfor what is truly right or just sit on the fence. And i am not about to sit on the fence after what i have been through.

When we start to reject what is toted as "christianity" today and is selling like hotcakes, we will offend (though we will notdo so purposely- and we don't need to).

Thank the Lord that He will still bring people to Himself whether they are following Joel Osteen or not.

By the way, I have his book (Your Best life Now) and at one time I prayed "Lord, why can't it be so for me? Why can't it be this easy for me?" It sure looks and tastes good, but unfortunately, it is not the truth.

In Christ, Chanin

Re:, on: 2005/7/8 16:31Sorry Mike... but I call it as I see it. I can take this thread to another site if you wish, but I think everyone here is mature enough to handle the truth, my brother. I dont think calling Osteen a liar, deciever and a wimp is out of line. He did what he did publicly... and should be held accountable publicly.

If you really have an issue with this thread... so be it. I'll stick to more soft issues and avoid the truth... like Osteen. I learned a couple months ago that this site does not belong to me. I'll submit to the powers that be here. Just let me know.

Krispy

Re: - posted by KingJimmy (), on: 2005/7/8 16:46I spoke somewhat on this issue recently in a sermon at my church (if anybody wants it, I can provide it) called "Band-AidReligion" based on Jeremiah 6:13-14 about how the priest and the prophet alike superficially heal the wounds of people,all in the name of gain. All these 40 days with Jesus, and 7 steps to Joy type books only superficially deal with the deep spiritual problems people face, and as a result, only make matters for people worse. They teach that you can have joy and salvation, yet keep your sin. But because they fail to deal with the sin issue, they only give people a superficial joy and salvation. Jesus has been baptized into Dr Phil these days.

I'll never forget the only official sermon I preached at my last church, and how my pastor who reviewed my notes (I was an intern) asked me to take talk about hell out of my sermon.... in a Pentecostal (Assemblies of God) Church at that!

Re: - posted by Joshua99 (), on: 2005/7/8 19:12I do want to be clear, my post here is not intended to slam another ministry or pastor, proclaiming the Gospel. My stand is to be obedient first to the Lord and contend for the faith, that was given to His Church! If we do not speak out against the false doctrine in a proper attitude, of the Spirit, we may find our hands bloody from the innocent and the decieved. I believe in these last days, even a precious brother, Oswald Chambers would not put up with much of what has been excepted as Truth.

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Re: - posted by tinluke (), on: 2005/7/8 19:35I just have to respond to this. I'd like to share a conversation that I recently had with my mom about Joel Osteen.

My mom recently gave her life to Christ and she bought Joel's best-selling book "your best life now". Well a few weeksago she called me and said "Tina, It's so strange. I've been reading Joel's book and reading the book you gave me and they seem like they are representing two different Gods. Joel's book tells me I can be successful, have a big house, promotoins, to think possitive and I will have it all. On the other hand your book tells me to give it all to God. To live 100% for HIM and to not worry about the rest. I'm confused, it's like i'm getting mixed messages."

Here is my mother a "baby christian" and she's confused by Joel's message, It has become a stumbling block to her. She is single, lives on a fixed income, doesn't have a fancy house, job or car. She's content and has peace with her life...that is until she starts reading Joel's book. She's feeling like a failure, like she doesn't have enough faith or isn't positive enough to receive God's best for her life. Now I have not read the book, but this what my mom got from it.

Re: - posted by MrBillPro (), on: 2005/7/8 20:32Everything happens for a reason as God is involved in His kids lives all the time. God had a reason for having Pastor Joel on this talk show and I have my opinion as to why, but my opinion does not count this time. God is in the process of purifying saints, myself being at the top of His list, and He does it in ways we can't even imagine or understand. He constantly refines us to clean out the things that do not magnify Jesus. He has to clean up His church (us) first, before he canattract the world of the lost. Get ready for pruning brother because some of it is going to hurt. Ouch! Did you feel that?.:-P

A friend of mine called me right before the show was starting and told me to watch it, but I told him I was not going to because I did not feel that I should. Sure enough, after what was discussed, I was glad that God kept me from watching the program. ;-)

Re:, on: 2005/7/9 6:30Y'all... I changed the title of the thread because it was a little too controversial. I think this title is still controversial... but very very true.

Krispy

Re: Who can we watch?, on: 2005/7/9 7:56How about watching the leading Holy Spirit?

I would say the vast majority of posters here would refer to themselves as mature Christians. I would agree with that as well. Is it not time for us to be preachers and teachers?

I know there must be somebody on TV who is preaching led by the Holy Spirit. Many on TV started that way. But big business has lured them into modifying the truth of God's Word.

Folks, these TV preachers need prayer.

I visited Lakewood Church.......once. Once was enough. I just did not feel right in the place. So who am I to matter if I feel right in a place or not? Well, it's probably not important to you at all. But it is very important to me.

Jesus said, "My sheep know my voice". Those who continually feed on spiritual pablum are seeking what satisfies the flesh, not the spirit.

I think the bible refers to it as the "apostacy". It looks good and tastes good, but it does not satisfy where it counts. That is why the carnal minded keep flocking to this mess, and worse yet, funding it's continuation. The horrible part about it is that millions will show up at Heaven's Gate and think they have "made it" only to hear Jesus tell them to depart, for He never knew them. Instead of refering to what Jesus said, they will refer to what their preacher said and Jesus will have no choice but to deny them.

It is the Holy Spirit Who leads and guides into all truth. Yes, He often uses others to "feed us" until we can "feed ourselv

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es". But once we begin to mature, books, tapes, and video about the bible should pale at the desire for the Book of Books. Our "need" to listen to others should fade and our hunger should be for the meat of the Gospel. Our feet should begin to realize that we are now standing....on the Rock of our salvation.

Saints, there will be apostate preachers and teachers until Jesus comes again. We are to place all our hope, not in man,but in the Good Shephard, Jesus Christ. When "men" get in public places and cowar at the truth, this should not surpriseus. They are proclaiming the truth of God's Word because He warned us this would happen.

Jesus said, "If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me. Not the Holy Spirit lifted up. Not the big name preacher lifted up.Jesus. Where the Spirit of God is, Jesus will be gloried. It's not about Joel Osteen, or you, or me. It's all about Jesus. Heis the author and the finisher of our faith. He has more delightful truth for anyone who will take Him at His Word, than all the preachers in this world combined.

What makes people like Tozer, Ravenhill, and so many more such memorable figures on this site is because these men were worshippers. They spent time with God. God and His Messiah was the passion of their lives. Their ministry was what spilled out of an overflowing life in Christ Jesus. That is why His Word flows so sweetly from them. It is Life, because itis inspired by God. Sadly, men like this have fallen by the way side for a substitute. Satan is in the "substitute business", has been from the beginning. What we see all around us today is inspired by personal gain more than anything else, gain and control. Big kingdoms are hard to manage..by yourself.

God said, "I set before you life and death, choose life". The life is in the blood. The blood had better be that of Jesus Christ and no other. Our righteousness and holiness had better be imputed to us by Him, or it will never stand in the presence of the Father. If you are not immersed in Christ, you are lost. Turn off the "tv man", and turn to Jesus. Immerse yourself in His life, and you will have plenty to talk about, plenty to share. Not only will you be alive in Christ, but from your belly shall flow rivers of living water. To God be the glory, now and forever amen.

at peace with God through Jesus Christ my Lord,

Lahry

Re: amen Lahry - posted by moreofHim (), on: 2005/7/9 8:24Lahry,

amen to your post! Apostacy is the first word that comes to my mind as well when it comes to this kind of easy/sweet gospel. It concerns me and yes, we need to stand up and offer the real thing. We need to be bold about proclaiming the real gospel which is to not only believe on Him, but if we are to be His disciples we must deny ourselves, pick up our crossand follow after Him.

'"If any of you wants to be my follower," he told them, "you must put aside your selfish ambition, shoulder your cross, and follow me.' Mark 8:34

In Christ, Chanin

Re:, on: 2005/7/9 8:44Narrow is the road and few are those who find it... and anytime something comes along that is incredible popular I am immediately suspect of it. I think the whole Purpose Driven phenom is the best example of this. It's just amazing that so many people who call themselves believers bite on these things. It used to be the devil had to use fancy fishing lures and spinner baits... but anymore it seems he can just use a hook with nothing on it at all.

Simply amazing.

hmmm... the weather is nice and my analogy put the thought in my head to go fishing. I think I'll be out on the lake the rest of the day!

Later y'all!

Krispy

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Re: - posted by MrBillPro (), on: 2005/7/9 8:47

Quote:-------------------------KrispyKrittr wrote:something comes along that is incredible popular I am immediately suspect of it. Krispy-------------------------

I think Jesus fit that catagorie when he was born, and I guess many were suspect of him. :-)

Re: - posted by Spitfire, on: 2005/7/9 15:02

Quote:-------------------------By the way... Larry King asks these same questions to every single Christian "leader" he has on his show. He's done it for years.-------------------------

Since reading this, I have received an email from Joyce Meyer Ministries to view the video of her appearance on Larry King Live. I just wanted to see what she had to say in answer to those questions. It was really good. She did not sidestep Larry King at all. I'm not sure what the locals here think of Joyce Meyer, but you have to admit she knows her Bible real well, and she ain't skeerd to tell the truth. Here's the link if anyone would like to listen. Love, Dian.http://www.joycemeyer.org/projects/lkl_replay/LKL_replay.php

Re: - posted by ChrisL, on: 2005/7/9 15:50Spitfire, Here is a link to an article you might be interested in. In His peace, Chrishttp://www.afcministry.com/Joyce_Meyers.htm

Re: Joyce Meyer - posted by moreofHim (), on: 2005/7/9 19:27Dian,

I actually enjoyed that interview with Joyce Meyer. Kind of refreshing. :-)

I may not agree with every word she says but I thought she did a pretty good job at answering his questions.. and I havebeen dealing with "approval addiction" myself these past few years.

much love in Christ, Chanin

Re: - posted by Nellie, on: 2005/7/9 19:37 All I can say to your post, Brother Lahry, is Amen, and Amen.God Bless youTo God be all Glory, Honor, and Praise.Nellie :-)

Re: Thank you so much Nellie., on: 2005/7/9 19:47Yes, yes, to God be the glory, I just operate the keys. Christian hugs to you. I hope you have a blessed Sunday, beloved.

In His mercy and grace,

Lahry

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Re:, on: 2005/7/10 6:56Joyce is bold, no doubt. For that, I am glad and thankful.

I do not subscribe to her Word of Faith heresies at all, so I do not want anyone on here to think I support her... I do not.

But in this particular case she was bold.

Krispy

Re:, on: 2005/7/10 6:57Lahry... kudo's my bro. You are one of the wisest among us. I respect you.

Krispy

Amen...but where to from here, for us? - posted by ZekeO (), on: 2005/7/10 8:06

Quote:-------------------------Lahry wrote:

It is the Holy Spirit Who leads and guides into all truth. Yes, He often uses others to "feed us" until we can "feed ourselves". But once we begin to mature, books, tapes, and video about the bible should pale at the desire for the Book of Books. -------------------------Amen!

The thing is that people are sheep, it blows my brain that folks cannot think for themselves. The scary truth is someone is always following someone else. There are those that lead and those that follow, I say that now having searched for any scriptural backing, but just observing where I live. That places an enormous amount of responsibility on those that lead, and this case Mr Osteen. It sobers me, that those that lead and feed Gods sheep will have to give an account for the things that they have allowed in the church of the living God, which is the pillar and foundation of all truth. Sobering... :-(

Re: Amen...but where to from here, for us?, on: 2005/7/10 14:53I thought this thread was quite interestings. I never knew Joel would do such a thing, ya he is an encourager. But at thesame time, my eyes didnt wanna see this. I dont worship or revere Joel, but i thought he was great, and after hearing allthis. Shame is all i can say...shame on him.

Why have we let leaven ruin the whole loaf? (retorical, dont answer...plz dont..lol)


Quote:-------------------------YeshuaIsMyGd wrote:Why have we let leaven ruin the whole loaf? (retorical, dont answer...plz dont..lol)-------------------------

Heck, I am a ruined loaf myself but I can't help it I was made that way from day one but one day when I meet my maker Iwill be a brand new fresh loaf. Maybe someday the critics here can become a pastor and can be scrutinized as they have done and you can bet someone will don't we reap what we sow? I don't have a problem with some that feel they should expose the wicked or liars or etc. my problem is that how long do we continue to beat the dead horse? we all here know that the bad has already been brought out if not you wouldn't know right? unless your a fly on the wall everywhere they go, so what are we doing by continuing to bring it up? I just can seem to see any message there after the fact but I am still in the oven. :-P

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Re: Amen...but where to from here, for us?, on: 2005/7/10 18:09

Quote:-------------------------The thing is that people are sheep, it blows my brain that folks cannot think for themselves. -------------------------ZekeO

They can. That is simultaneously part of the problem and part of the solution. Submission to eldership works really well in one situation only - when the eldership is submitted to the Lord. You'd think that goes without saying, but, to suggest a sheep can think for himself, is simultaneously to suggest that he might need to break away, for the sake of truth - which might cast doubt on an elder's capability to lead. Ideally, his elder will be open to meet him swiftly and will either be able to justify his stance or agree to go look at the topic again.

In the situation which started this thread - a TV interview - it is far easier to point out faulty doctrine and make a stand against it, than the same concerns would be to tackle in a local church.

Re: Joel Osteen doesnt believe John 14:6 - posted by ellie, on: 2005/7/10 18:14Well I have read many of the threads and have found them interesting. I did not know that Men of God were watering down the meaning in the Gospel.I personally read the King James Version which talks boldly, I also have a NKJV.

Our hearing comes from God and it is the Holy Spirit that points out errors.It is difficult, not to listen, to what the Spirit says even though it can put us in a position of having to respond.

This is why we need to talk to, and pray to, God. To ask God to prepare the ground we would walk on. To prepare our heart. For the right utterences, at the right moment, with all love in our heart.

Where we cannot change a situation God can, so we must lean on him.

Amen

ellie

Re: - posted by MrBillPro (), on: 2005/7/10 19:20You know I bet the atheists Love it when we tear down each other, it's funny only if we could stick together like they do, and they do it without Christ makes you wonder sometimes why do we build up such a Christ only to tear down, everyone believer here has a mission of their own and the only reasons our flaws or imperfections during our mission are not exposed is because were not on TV or exposed in a higher fashion and I bet everyone of us here could say "THANK GOD"for that. :-)

Re: Joel Olsteen, on: 2005/7/10 19:37

Quote:-------------------------we could stick together like they do, and they do it without Christ-------------------------If I could just mention, they were born with that disposition. We all did it effortlessly, once. But, it takes a live fish to swim against the stream and that's only one reason Christians can seem disunited. The only place we are one, is in Him, having been made to drink into one Spirit.

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Re: - posted by MrBillPro (), on: 2005/7/10 19:49Dr. Neil T. Anderson once said:

PeoplesÂ’ lives are governed by what they have chosen to believe. That is why an unshakable faith in God and an uncompromising belief in His Word is the only foundation for Christian living. The ChristianÂ’s calling is to walk by faith according to what God says is true. The Word of God is to be lived, not just intellectually discussed. Our credibility does not hinge upon our ability to argue, nor does it depend upon our ability to convince others that we are right and therefore they must be wrong.

We will be deemed credible only when we live what we profess to believe. We best defend the faith when we glorify Godin our bodies. In this way we manifest His presence in the world. Jesus said, "You will know them by their fruits" (Matt. 7:20). I would take that to mean the fruit of reproduction, as well as the fruit of the Spirit. Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control are the measure of a Spirit-filled Christian. "By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another" (Jn. 13:35).

Re: - posted by roman, on: 2005/7/12 2:22

Quote:-------------------------2 Timothy 4:7

-------------------------I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. (NKJV)-------------------------

Christianity is not just fighting "a good fight" but also fighting "the good fight." As Paul had defended the faith from all false teaching, so must we as an instrument of God to save our brothers & sisters from going to the wrong path.

BUT . . .

Quote:-------------------------Jude 1:9Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" (NKJV)-------------------------

. . . we must speak with no slandering. Let gentleness be in our mouth. Let's be objective and not subjective or else, I believe, we will be guilty of judging them.

In Christ,Roman

Re: - posted by ravin, on: 2005/7/12 2:30One must test the spirit,If you don't stand for something you'll fall for anything.One must have an answer as to their hope. One who is a leader is expected to lead. A leader must know which way is up.

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Re:, on: 2005/7/12 6:08

Quote:-------------------------. . . we must speak with no slandering. Let gentleness be in our mouth. Let's be objective and not subjective or else, I believe, we will be guilty of judging them.-------------------------

That is an excellent point... and you're correct. As I admitted yesterday, I was not as objective or subjective with the words I used at the origin of the thread on Osteen.

I've always strived to stick with the issue of doctrine when talking about different church "leaders". Everyone has to admit that I have been very easy on Benny Hinn as a person... even tho he is an easy target. His doctrine and teachings are just devilish, but I have not talked about him as a person.

I think we would all do well to heed the quote that I put at the top of this post.

Krispy

Re: - posted by sermonindex (), on: 2005/7/18 2:42Here is a letter written by Joel Osteen on his website in regards to the Larry King Interview:

Dear Friend,

Many of you have called, written or e-mailed regarding my recent appearance on Larry King Live. I appreciate your comments and value your words of correction and encouragement.

It was never my desire or intention to leave any doubt as to what I believe and Whom I serve. I believe with all my heart that it is only through Christ that we have hope in eternal life. I regret and sincerely apologize that I was unclear on the very thing in which I have dedicated my life.

Jesus declared in John 14; I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me. I believe that Jesus Christ alone is the only way to salvation. However, it wasnÂ’t until I had the opportunity to review the transcript of the interview that I realize I had not clearly stated that having a personal relationship with Jesus is the only way to heaven. ItÂ’s about the individualÂ’s choice to follow Him.

God has given me a platform to present the Gospel to a very diverse audience. In my desire not to alienate the people that Jesus came to save, I did not clearly communicate the convictions that I hold so precious.

I will use this as a learning experience and believe that God will ultimately use it for my good and His glory. I am comforted by the fact that He sees my heart and knows my intentions. I am so thankful that I have friends, like you, who are willing to share their concerns with me.

Thank you again to those who have written. I hope that you accept my deepest apology and see it in your heart to extend to me grace and forgiveness.

As always, I covet your prayers and I am believing for GodÂ’s best in your life

Joel OsteenPastor - Lakewood Church

here is a link to an real media recording of him publically repenting of the comments:http://boss.streamos.com/real/lakewood/lakeupload/real_2_min_500k.ram

Here also is a Belief system for his church and ministry:

WE BELIEVEÂ…the entire Bible is inspired by God, without error and the authority on which we base our faith, conduct and doctrine.

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WE BELIEVEÂ…in one God who exists in three distinct persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God who came to this earth as Savior of the world.

WE BELIEVEÂ…Jesus died on the cross and shed His blood for our sins. We believe Jesus rose from the dead and is coming again. We believe that eternal salvation is found only by placing our faith in Jesus Christ and what he did for us on the cross.

WE BELIEVEÂ…water baptism is a symbol of the cleansing power of the blood of Christ and an outward testimony to our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

WE BELIEVEÂ…in the regular taking of Communion as an act of remembering what the Lord Jesus did for us on the cross.

WE BELIEVEÂ…every believer should be in a growing relationship with Jesus by obeying GodÂ’s Word, yielding to the Holy Spirit and by being conformed to the image of Christ.

WE BELIEVEÂ…as children of God, we are overcomers and more than conquerors and God intends for each of us to experience the abundant life He has in store for us.

Re:, on: 2005/7/18 6:51Fair enough. While I disagree with a lot of his teachings, this apology for his statements on Larry King Live shows that he espouses that Christ is the only way to salvation. I only wish that the millions of people who saw him on LKL would also see his apology...

Krispy

Re: - posted by JaySaved, on: 2005/7/18 16:52Mr. Osteen can apoligize all he wants to, but he knew what he was saying and this is what he TRULY believes:

(transcript from Larry King interview)

KING: How about issues that the church has feelings about? Abortion? Same-sex marriages?

OSTEEN: Yeah. You know what, Larry? I don't go there. I just ...

KING: You have thoughts, though.

OSTEEN: I have thoughts. I just, you know, I don't think that a same-sex marriage is the way God intended it to be. I don't think abortion is the best. I think there are other, you know, a better way to live your life. But I'm not going to condemn those people. I tell them all the time our church is open for everybody.

KING: You don't call them sinners?

OSTEEN: I don't.

KING: Is that a word you don't use?

OSTEEN: I don't use it. I never thought about it. But I probably don't. But most people already know what they're doing wrong. When I get them to church I want to tell them that you can change. There can be a difference in your life. So I don'tgo down the road of condemning.

How is he going to preach that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God", if he will not use the word 'SINNER'?

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Re: Joel Osteen on Larry King - posted by Manfred, on: 2005/7/18 18:39The interview has 9866 words.

JO said "Jesus" 8 times--------"Christ" 3 times--------"I don't know" 50 times

The New Testament:

"Jesus" 942 verses"Christ" 532 verses"I don't know" 0 verses

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternallife, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." 1 John 5:13

Lord Jesus, on: 2005/7/18 19:02Lord, please God, can you now make this thread die? In Your High and Holy Name I pray ...amen.

Re: - posted by MrBillPro (), on: 2005/7/18 19:14Boy aren't we quick to point out others faults! Well he is my Pastor and I am proud of him and all I can say is learn to useyour remote if you don't enjoy listening to someone.

I am assuming some have the perfect pastor think God I don't attend a church were the pastor is perfect because no one would have any room to grow, and I have said "I don't know" a lot more than 50 times in my life, yea I am little upset because I personally know Joel and I know were his heart is "just like Jesus does" find me the perfect pastor that says all the right things and I will be more skeptical of him than one that will at least admit his mistakes.

I would imagine forgiving him would be totally out of the question for some so that groups you with him would be my guess. an unforgiving spirit the tragedy of all this is the bondage people find themselves in when they do not grasp the immensity of God's forgiveness. It is a bondage that stifles their ability to love and accept those they know in their hearts mostdeserve their love. It is a bondage that cripples marriages from their outset. It is a bondage that is often passed from generation to generation. It is a bondage that chokes out the abundant life Christ promised to those who would believe....

Re: Lord Jesus - posted by MrBillPro (), on: 2005/7/18 19:18

Quote:-------------------------Neilgin1 wrote:Lord, please God, can you now make this thread die? In Your High and Holy Name I pray ...amen.-------------------------

I would like for it to end but we have to remember the devil come to kill,steal and destroy and that is his job and he will continue to do his job until Jesus comes back to rescue us from him, we must remember the devil is the God of this worldso we will have to continue to deal with this until Jesus return "come on Jesus" ;-)

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Re:, on: 2005/7/19 6:41group hug everyone... kiss kiss

c'mon... y'all.

Krispy

Re: What I believe, on: 2005/7/19 8:35For what ever it's worth, this is what I believe about Joel Osteen.

I've often said that I rarely watch tv preachers. I have watched Joel on a couple occasions. My wife was a huge fan of his father.

I visited Lakewood Church in Houston once. At the time I was really frustrated with big churches and their constant guilt trips about money. I can't remember if John was still alive then, but it was a Sunday night. John's daughter went to the pulpit and began to pitch money. Actually, it was more like shaving the backs of the sheep, hide and all, and I just got up and walked out. But I have watched Joel a time or two since. This is what I discern in my spirit. Joel is a very nice, clean living and very loving person. From all I can gather, he is an example of being a good christian husband and father. He is a very fluent preacher. I believe Joel is in harmony with basic evangelical tenets of Faith with all of us.

Pastoring a large church and keeping the Holy Spirit in the midst is very difficult to do, no doubt. Budget and power are very seductive. It is difficult to shephard such huge flocks and not everyone is able to empower and release others to help.

But I'm certain that after a time, someone like Joel who grew up in church would feel very comfortable before the body atLakewood. Not so when invited to appear on one of the most highly visible talk shows in america today. This is a whole new ball of wax and a completely different format. His audience is unseen. I'm certian that this would probably make anyone a bit uncomfortable. I do believe that above all, Joel would want to represent His Savior as our God of love. I believe that Joel would want others to identify the love of God within himself for God and for God's people.

So answering questions off the cuff is very difficult, as this is not his usual ministry. I can understand how he would be so reluctant to give a clear answer and yet try to move through the question in love.

I thank God for Joel. I do believe that he is one of the very few on tv worth watching. I'm glad he posted an apology on his web site. We all make mistakes. To err is human. To admit error is noble. Let us use a very short measure to appraisehis mistake, you know, the same one God will use to measure us?

In praise of the King (Who's first name is not Larry),

Lahry

Re: - posted by JaySaved, on: 2005/7/19 9:53I love Joel Osteen as a fellow Christian brother. I pray for him as I do for many other people. God knows his heart, as he knows my heart.

I have read some of his book and he talks about "enlarging your vision". He uses an example of a man seeing this greathouse and thinking, "I couldn't imagine living in a place like that." Then this voice comes to him and says, "Of course you can't, not with that attitude!". He gave a story that consisted of coveting!!I think we should look into the Bible to see if they preached a "prosperity gospel":

1 Timothy 6:7-137 For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out. 8 But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with these. 9 But those who want to be rich fall into temptation, a trap, and many foolish and harmful desires, which plunge people into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, and by craving it, some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pains. 11 Now you, man of God, run from these thin

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gs; but pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance, and gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight for the faith; take hold of eternal life, to which you were called and have made a good confession before many witnesses. 13 In the presence of God, who gives life to all, and before Christ Jesus, who gave a good confession before Pontius Pilate, I charge you.

I don't write this post to start trouble. I just think that we need to call a spade a spade and if someone is talking about worldly riches and not using the word, "sinner" there is a problem.

Re:, on: 2005/7/19 10:50Good post, Jay...

One of the problems with WOF (which Osteen is part of) is that they claim the conditional promises God made to Israelin the OT for the church today. This finds it's root in "replacement theology", meaning that God abandoned Israel, andthe Church is now Israel and therefore the promises He gave to Israel are now ours.

God's promises were conditional to Israel... If you follow Me, I will do such and such... If You obey my Law, I will expand your whatever... etc etc. This is found throughout the OT.

However, and this is WOF misses it, the NT says... IF you follow Me, you will suffer. The NT speaks of suffering and material poverty, and actually gives many warnings of the spiritual dangers faced by those who are rich with earthly things.

Stark contrast to what we hear from WOF'ers, if you ask me.

Interesting to note that there is very little suffering in the American and Western churches... in fact, we're very plush and rich. Makes me wonder if we're really follow Jesus as we should. If we were, it seems we'd be suffering a little more. Sure, we get called names sometimes, and made fun of in movies... but thats hardly nothing compared to Christians in China. I think it's one reason why we're not seeing many true converts. We entertain the masses, and tell them Jesus has a wonderful plan for your life. We never tell them the truth... that wonderful plan will include suffering.

And I am writing this to me as well... I don't suffer for him. I get tongue lashed, even by some on here... but it's hardly suffering. Just once I'd like to here a WOF'er preach on 2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Dont hold your breath.

Krispy


Quote:-------------------------JaySaved wrote:I don't write this post to start trouble. I just think that we need to call a spade a spade and if someone is talking about worldly riches and not using the word, "sinner" there is a problem.-------------------------

Well I am a spade been one since day one but God is still working on me how about you?Sorry he "is" my pastor and I do Love and respect my pastor very much and I am not going to lay back and be timid like some Christians would when someone talking about my pastor as I would hope not many else would do either, and I a sure those that can talk about him have the perfect pastor and live the perfect little Christian life "yea right" My whole family has givin their life to the Lord through lakewood since the early 90's I am proud to be a member of Lakewood Church and proud to call my Pastor Joel Osteen 'A SINNER AS WE ALL ARE SAVED BY GRACE" And you can post all the scriptures you want to justify your opinion of someone else but if you yourself are not walking the walk of all the scriptures in the word, I sure would not be posting any in reference to someone else's walk.God's Word says "by every word you shall be justified or condemned."

;-)

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Re:, on: 2005/7/19 12:17Bill... you are one of the few people on here that opposes me on a regular basis who has ALSO taken the initiative to getto know me a little more as a person. So I hope that you receive this in the spirit that it is intended.

I can understand your reaction to this post. You have an intimate tie to Osteen's ministry. Let me assure you that I haveno problem with Osteen as a person. He is very likable, and seems to be a very pleasant person. I believe that hesincerely loves God. I also believe that people are saved thru his ministry. So I for one am NOT in any way judging hiswalk with the Lord.

But we are exhorted in scripture to #1 weigh all things (and that especially includes teachings) with scripture and hold tothe good... and #2 to earnestly contend for the faith. So when I hear a teaching that is unscriptural, I have a right and an obligation as a child of God to speak up. Why? Not for my own satisfaction... but so that others will be aware, and perhaps prevent someone from being deceived.

I believe someone can be saved, and be a false teacher. But I also believe that someone can be decieved and find themselves lost and condemned when they meet Jesus because of false teaching. One false teaching leads to another leads to another... and so on and so forth.

Contrary to what some believe, I am not motivated by a "see, I told you so" spirit. I am motivated by a burden on my heart for truth, and not to see anyone decieved.

Does this mean I have a corner on truth? No... no one does. There are many non-essentials out there that you never hear me comment on. But I sincerely believe with all my heart that WOF is a dangerous doctrine, and leads to the ship wrecking of many people's faith in God.

It's not a personal attack on Osteen. It's not a personal attack on Rodney H-B... or even Benny Hinn.

I wish there was a way you could step back from your emotional ties to Osteen and take an objective look at what WOF as a whole teaches.

Defending your pastor is fine. But to defend him without defending his teachings (which I havent seen you do yet) seemsa little out of balance. To defend the man and dismiss any questions some have about what he teaches sounds a littlle...well... cultish. I know you're not cultish... just trying to explain how it sounds.

You know I love you, Bill. You're an Earnhardt fan, how could I not love you?? All that I have said comes from a place of compassion and friendship... hope you understand that.

Krispy

Re: - posted by JaySaved, on: 2005/7/19 12:21My feelings have been made know.

Dear Lord, I love you and I hope that all men/women come to a knowledge of the truth, that truth is that your son Jesus came into this world as an atonement for our sins.

God Bless all of you.

Re: - posted by todd, on: 2005/7/19 13:39Lahry,

What a refreshing, insightful, and wise post. I was very blessed to read it.

You wrote:"To err is human. To admit error is noble."

That's awesome! I'm going to remember that one. How true.

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Re: Krispy - posted by MrBillPro (), on: 2005/7/19 13:52I am one that totally understands you and I am in no way "mad" at anyone here, if I am deceivedas we "all" are in some way deceived by something or someone anyway so I am in good company, God will led me away from his ministry. As for as his teachings they are subject to change if God see fit as we all are subject to change if God is working in our lives. But I will ask again as I have before, were is the perfect Pastor or Church so I can go and join and make it imperfect.I will say this, it would be very dangerous to condemn anyone that has been saved and the Holy Spirit resides in them on the things they say or do unless you totally understand Gods ways, the Bible I read from states firmly his ways are not our ways so how can we even begin to condemn without seeing the Gods big picture? Tunnel vision can lead one astrayas it has many, for me I will give God time and Pastor Joel has only had a very few years, Lordy it even took the almighty 6 days to complete the earth. :-(

Re:, on: 2005/7/19 14:12Bill... no one is condemning Osteen. I am judging his teachings and his words to scripture. "Judge not and ye shall not be judged" is NOT referring to this type of judgement. God bless Joel Osteen... but his public teachings are open to publicdissection and scrutiny... and that's black and white scripture. It's what we are commanded to do. I dont know why that itis so hard for some to understand.

Krispy


Quote:-------------------------KrispyKrittr wrote:but his public teachings are open to public dissection and scrutiny... Krispy-------------------------

Heck my whole life is open to public dissection and scrutiny, just read the responses to my posts. :-P

Were is the perfect Pastor or Church so I can go and join, why can I get an answer to my question? I am willing to relocate if someone can find me this place, hopefully it will be close to a NASCAR track. :-?

Re: - posted by JaySaved, on: 2005/7/19 14:27You are right. There is no perfect pastor or church. Every pastor sins and every member of every church is a sinner.

But that in no way condones a preacher REFUSING to say the word "Sinner". If a preacher will not preach on sin, he will not preach on forgiveness of sin, if there is no forgiveness of sin, there is no salvation from sin. If there is no salvation from sin, there is death apart from Christ.

Let me ask you a question, if Joel does not call someone a sinner, does he at least say that God calls them a sinner?

Re: osteen - posted by moreofHim (), on: 2005/7/19 14:29I don't know if anyone has thought of this but the teachings of Osteen and others like it is completely opposed to the majority of sermons that are offered on Sermonindex. The beliefs and teachings are completely opposite of that of Ten Shekels and a Shirt(Reidhead)- which this site downloads the most and has changed many lives and opened many eyes and hearts.

I do have to ask if those who listen to Osteen and believe that what he is preaching is ok, if they have listened to Ten Shekels and Shirt or 'Another Gospel', or any of Tozer's or Art Katz' sermons? They are so obviously opposed.

I know that when I read and listened to Ten Shekels and A Shirt, it changed the way i looked at everything. It is all for God's glory and not about us in any way shape or form. It is not about being happy or having a carefree/enjoying life, or having our best life. It is about us serving Him, loving Him, obeying Him.... why? not because life will be better for us, or that we will get something out of it- it is because HE IS WORTHY of our love and obedience.

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Our joy comes from peace. Peace with God. Knowing that we are completely surrendered to Him in all things.

In His love, chanin


Quote:-------------------------JaySaved wrote:Let me ask you a question, if Joel does not call someone a sinner, does he at least say that God calls them a sinner?-------------------------

Just human nature to take one line on national TV and run with it!, Yes he talks about sin and sinners at church all the time you should come and see for yourself don't take my word for it, if he did not talk about sin or sinners there would be no alter call now would there. :-(

Re: - posted by JaySaved, on: 2005/7/19 14:36

Quote:-------------------------Yes he talks about sin and sinners at church all the time-------------------------

Good. I am glad you said that.

Re:, on: 2005/7/19 14:40

Quote:-------------------------hopefully it will be close to a NASCAR track. -------------------------

Come to my church... Bristol Motor Speedway is only 90 minutes away, up in Tennessee.

Krispy

Found this on another site Wow! this should really bring out the beast in some Lol! - posted by MrBillPro (), on: 2005/7/19 14:43Ministries like Lakewood and Copeland are very balanced. They teach the importance of peoples holiness walk and theirevery day walk in obedience and the consequences of not living in God's ways. But they equally teach the blessings of living an obedient life. That always seems to upset the religious people who do not have a personal relationship of their own with God. Anyone who has actually read the whole Bible can see for themselves that when you live in obedience youwill be blessed in every area of your life like protection, healing, and prosperity. These ministries teach that if we do our part, God always does His. The trouble with Christians like you is that you would rather believe the messes in your life are part of God's plan instead of acknowledging it is because of lack of obedience and lack of faith in what the Bible says. We have personally been living with no sickness and no lack financially and peace since we have been applying the teachings of these ministries, because their teachings are very Biblical and when you take the Bible for what it says and nottry to change the Scriptures meanings to justify why your life is not whole in every area of your life you will be able to livein protection and health and with no lack financially. God wants us blessed so we can bless others and His work. Peoplewho are not Christians are not moved by sick poverty stricken Christians who have one tragedy after another with no victory. That does not show how wonderful and powerful and loving God really is. Those things are the fruit of Satan. Satan came to kill steal and destroy. Jesus came so we could have life and have it more ABUNDANTLY in every area of our lives.

It would do you good to get into the scriptures and see that God always came through for the obedient and blessed themmore than they were before. Picking up our cross and suffering and follow Him simply means live your life His way, do th

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ings His way, treat people His way even when we do not feel like it. It does not mean to live a miserable defeated life. Jesus took all our sicknesses and diseases and iniquities and bore them on the cross so we could live free from them. Jesus died for the whole world and paid the price for everyone, so whoever accepts Jesus will be saved. People choose to go to hell by not accepting Jesus. Jesus does not make that choice for them. He would want everyone to accept Him. But He loves us so much He gave us free will instead of making us mindless robots. I pray that some day you will be open to the Spirit and see God for who He really is and how blessed He wants your life to be. These ministries gives Christiansopportunities to seed into God's work, so God will be able to bless them and multiply their seed. The fruit of it is prosperity not just for the ministry but for the people who seed the money. Personally we prosper more every year as we keep onseeding and so does everyone else who seeds into God's work. I thank God for the opportunity these kinds if ministries give us. That is why Satan has people like you persecute ministries like these, he wants to keep God's people sick and poor and defeated. You should think about the consequences in persecuting God's people who are trying to show people how to live in God's best. It will come back on you and you will find your life cursed with lack and sickness and tragedies with no victorious outcome. For your sake I hope you repent so you can receive God's best!

Re: Found this on another site Wow! this should really bring out the beast in some Lo - posted by moreofHim (), on: 2005/7/19 15:01I once believed this also (that if you obey the Lord and live accordingly that everything would be blessed and wonderful.)

But I am here as a witness that as I have grown in my faith and dug deeper and tried to be more obedient, I have had much suffering and many more trials.

Just for example, just in the last 10 months or so I found out I had malignant melanoma, then during my treatment, etc...my christian husband had an affair. Because of the affair, he could lose his business. Then my mother decided that I amdecieved and am a religious wacko and really does not want anything to do with me unless i see her point of view. Now my 6 yr. old daughter has signs of Tourett's Syndrome and must go to a neurologist. My life this past year has been a living nightmare.

I did not expect this much suffering because, after all I had already surrendered everything over to the Lord, why would He allow all of this. It looked as if I was better off and more "blessed" when I was jsut a lukewarm christian, playing the christian game. I didn't have this kind of trials or suffering.

But He doesn't promise us a "good life". He promises us that He will be with us and that we can and should trust Him. and that is what I am doing.

If I thought I was supposed to be blessed or expected it as a growing christian, then I would have left the faith long ago.

Now in light of all these trials, I can still look deep and see blessings anyway. I can see my wonderful children and how they laugh and smile with me. How my marriage can still flourish and my family can still flourish with God's amazing grace and help. I am much more thankful for the little things now -which i would have never been before.

From watching and reading the storys of great men and women of God in the past, their lives were full of trials, suffering and hardships. That is what produced endurance and perseverance in them. They abandoned all for Him. They gave away their rights, their comforts, everything and anything that was required.

In Him, Chanin

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Re: - posted by lasersmiledr, on: 2005/7/19 15:04If I am not mistaken, we are to restore in love. I sense some heart problems here. We were also instructed to Love God with all our heart, soul and mind and Love our neighbor as ourselves. Where is the love in personal attacks? We must seperate sin and the sinner. Jesus came for the lost. That is us folks!

I pray we all have the strength to stand for truth ( point well taken) and work for the unity Christ prayed for, and be a lightto the lost by our love.

My Savior, came to die, for me... what did yours do?

Re: Found this on another site Wow! this should really bring out the beast in some Lo - posted by JaySaved, on: 2005/7/19 15:05

Quote:-------------------------Anyone who has actually read the whole Bible can see for themselves that when you live in obedience you will be blessed in every area of your life like protection, healing, and prosperity.-------------------------

By "whole Bible" are you including:-Acts 7:54-60 (Stoning of Steven)-2 Corinthians 12:7-10 (God's power perfected by weakness)-Matthew 14 (John the Baptist Beheaded)

What about James 1:2-3:

"Consider it pure joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance"

2 Corinthians 11:22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? So am I. 23 Are they servants of Christ? I'm talking like a madman--I'm a better one: with far more labors, many more imprisonments, far worse beatings, near death many times. 24 Five times I received from the Jews 40 lashes minus one. 25 Three times I was beatenwith rods. Once I was stoned. Three times I was shipwrecked. I have spent a night and a day in the depths of the sea. 26 On frequent journeys, I faced dangers from rivers, dangers from robbers, dangers from my own people, dangers from the Gentiles, dangers in the city, dangers in the open country, dangers on the sea, and dangers among false brothers; 27labor and hardship, many sleepless nights, hunger and thirst, often without food, cold, and lacking clothing. 28 Not to mention other things, there is the daily pressure on me: my care for all the churches. 29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is made to stumble, and I do not burn with indignation? 30 If boasting is necessary, I will boast about my weaknesses. 31 The eternally blessed One, the God and Father of the Lord Jesus, knows I am not lying. 32 In Damascus, the governor under King Aretas guarded the city of the Damascenes in order to arrest me, 33 so I was let down in a basket through a window in the wall and escaped his hands.

But I will defer to you on this subject:

Quote:-------------------------The trouble with Christians like you is that you would rather believe the messes in your life are part of God's plan instead of acknowledging it is because of lack of obedience and lack of faith in what the Bible says.-------------------------

Paul had plenty of Â“messesÂ” in his life.

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Re: Found this on another site Wow! this should really bring out the beast in some Lo, on: 2005/7/19 15:07This is good stuff, Bill. Can you start a new thread leading off with this?? I dont want to see this get lost in the shuffle...

Krispy

Re:, on: 2005/7/19 15:09

Quote:-------------------------Where is the love in personal attacks?-------------------------

Where are the personal attacks?? I havent seen any. Do you read all the posts? If you did you will see that we ARE seperating the sin (doctrine) from the sinner (teacher).

Unity means nothing if it isnt based on truth.

Krispy

Re: - posted by JaySaved, on: 2005/7/19 15:12I am not personally attacking anyone. I apoligize if anyone thinks that I am.

I am enjoying this conversation because it is bringing me into the word of God. Anything that brings you to God's word is for our own benefit.

(I hope this doesn't sound cheesy)I love all of you guys!!!!!

Chanin, on: 2005/7/19 15:13Dear sister, God bless you for sharing your life like that, you KNOW that I will redouble my prayers for you and your family. If you can, could you pray for your humble servant on two counts, on returning to Chicago to read my new play. .....and two, for God to give me the impetus to resume my Korean language studies, pray to God that I am allowed someday to preach theriches of Christ in a free North Korea......in the mean, I shall pray for shalom on your dear dear family.

Your brother in Christ, Neil

Re:, on: 2005/7/19 15:15

Quote:-------------------------(I hope this doesn't sound cheesy-------------------------

love is never cheesy...remember God is love, he who lives in love lives in God and God in him.

Re:, on: 2005/7/19 15:16Bill... just in case you dont start a new thread with this article, would you answer me one question please...

Where is this taught in the NT? Where is heal and riches promised?

Paul had an affliction. Some believe it was either malaria (spelling) or a condition of the eyes. Why werent any of the apostles rich? If anyone followed Jesus in obedience it was those fellas...

Show me one single verse where Paul ever taught any of this, much less lived it out in his own life.

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The person who wrote this article... someday they will die. If it is an accident, what happened to their protection? If they die of natural causes... thats still "illness". What happened to their health?

Can this theology be preached in a poverty stricken village in Africa where 75% of the people there are dying of AIDS? Where is the promise of health and wealth there?

I love ya Bill... but I doubt you can defend this. Please try tho. I would like to think that you can defend what you say you believe.

Krispy


Quote:-------------------------KrispyKrittr wrote:This is good stuff, Bill. Can you start a new thread leading off with this?? I dont want to see this get lost in the shuffle...Krispy-------------------------

Were should I start? :-P

I dont want to get lost in the shuffle Like Jeff Gordon did Sunday? he should have taken his car to Midas brakes.:-P :-?

Re:, on: 2005/7/19 15:18

Quote:-------------------------That always seems to upset the religious people who do not have a personal relationship of their own with God. -------------------------

This line really blows my mind... talk about personal attacks, snooty, uppity, prideful and judgemental...

You really know how to breathe new life into an old thread, dont ya Bill! :-P

Krispy

Re:, on: 2005/7/19 15:19Ya had to bring Gordon into this, didnt you.

Krispy

Re: - posted by MrBillPro (), on: 2005/7/19 15:21That always seems to upset the religious people who do not have a personal relationship of their own with God.

Sure am gald I did not write that I just shared it, though it might break up the monotony on this post looks like it did the trick.


Quote:-------------------------KrispyKrittr wrote:I love ya Bill... but I doubt you can defend this. Please try tho. I would like to think that you can defend what you say you believe.Krispy-------------------------

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Hard for me to defend anyones writings but the jews that wrote "all" of the Bible.

Re:, on: 2005/7/19 15:26If you cant defend what you post... why post it? Even if it is from someone else. You posted it like it was something that supported what you believe... whats the deal?

Krispy

Re: Where is this taught in the NT? Where is heal and riches promised?, on: 2005/7/19 15:30

Quote:-------------------------Where is this taught in the NT? Where is heal and riches promised?-------------------------

"I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in My Name". John 16:23b

The things I ask God for, veer very very far from material stuff. I don't mean that in spiritual arrogance, but it just aint me.I ask for God to deliver souls, and transform lives to walk in wholeness and peace, if some guys need caddilacs, SUVs, air conditioning, lots of money, so be it....Bless God, ain't me.......but you see, Christ is working towards a co-laboring aspect with His friends, when He makes Himself vulnerable by saying, "Whatever you ask"......

God wants co-laborer's whose hearts are aligned WITH WHAT HE WANTS....if you "wants", Gold caddilac's, silver pistols, air conditioning and a pocket full of green, it's probably a safe bet you heart ISN'T aligned with His.....

If you want and pray for the Wind of the Spirit to blow thru yielded open hearts, and a multitude to come to Christ....if thats what you pray for, if thats what you labor for........it's a safe bet that you are a worm of Christ

Glory!!

but there's the verse for you Krispy...

ps. btw, I'm anti-air conditioning ...lol....number one freon ruins the atmosphere, and number two it makes good Christians unfit for the mission field...lol, I'm half serious.....well all the way serious.


Quote:-------------------------KrispyKrittr wrote:If you cant defend what you post... why post it? Even if it is from someone else. You posted it like it was something that supported what you believe... whats the deal?Krispy-------------------------

though it might break up the monotony on this post looks like it did the trick, can I please be forgiven?

If you cant defend what you post... why post it? Well heck there goes my imperfection again, I sure wished I could be perfect, I am working on it though so stay tuned.

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Re: - posted by MrBillPro (), on: 2005/7/19 15:41Ps 26:2 Test me, O LORD, and try me, examine my heart and my mind;

Luke 24:38 He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds?

Rom 8:6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace;

Col 3:2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things.

The devil certainly does not want you to gear up your mind to accomplish the sincere works of God. He wants to keep us so distracted by unruly thoughts that we will never see our way to get serious with God as an individual or as a church family. This is why Peter says in 1 Pet 1:13-15, Â“Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed. As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do.Â” Let me ask you this? What kind of church would it be if your family life and your thought life was the pattern from which it took its example? Would there be any kind of worship in that church? Would there be mutual care one for another? Would there be any kind of evangelistic out reach? Would it have qualified leaders in place? Would there be any sort of discipleship program in place? This is why God brings us together as families. There is not a perfect family. There is not a person alive who thinks perfect thoughts. But at least we can strive in our family and in our private thought lives to be like Christ, and when we come together as the Church more and more of the image of Christ will be seen in this place.

Here's why I against air-conditioning for Christians!!!!!, on: 2005/7/19 15:48Because it's ruining the enviroment thru release of freon, AND thru higher consumption of electricity, which is largely produced thru the burning of coal, a 19th century fuel.

Furthermore (arrrgh) it makes Christians soft, meaning we should be preparing to go into the wide open harvest fields, much of which is hot humid poor and without air-con.

TURN THOSE INFERNAL MACHINES OFF!!!!

and tarnation, get rid of that worldy heavy metal music, it will stumble you!!!!

Re:, on: 2005/7/19 16:00

Quote:-------------------------but there's the verse for you Krispy...-------------------------

My my... how we do wrest the Word at times.

Paul asked 3 times for his infirmity to be relieved. God said No. Apparently Paul missed that verse you quoted.

This is not a health and wealth verse.

Krispy

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Re:, on: 2005/7/19 16:04"whatever you ask" sounds pretty clear to me.

Whats the problem?

need a q-tip?

Re: Here's why I against air-conditioning for Christians!!!!!, on: 2005/7/19 16:07

Quote:-------------------------Furthermore (arrrgh) it makes Christians soft, meaning we should be preparing to go into the wide open harvest fields, much of which is hot humid poor and without air-con.-------------------------

Well heck, Neil... get out there to these people and convert them, then teach them health & wealth doctrine... that way God can bless them with A/C in their huts and can trade their donkey in for an Escalade... Oh, and they'll all be healed of AIDS.

Saying it all with a smile. :-D

Krispy

Re:, on: 2005/7/19 16:10

Quote:-------------------------"whatever you ask" sounds pretty clear to me.-------------------------

The exegesis is commical around here at times. :-P

Krispy

Re:, on: 2005/7/19 16:11On second thought... it's kinda scarey...

Krispy

Re:, on: 2005/7/19 16:13

Quote:-------------------------The exegesis is commical around here at times.-------------------------

nice fruit.

correct spelling is "comical"......and "whatever you ask" is abundantly clear.

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Re:, on: 2005/7/19 16:18I'm trying to keep this on the light side, Neil... nice fruit? I'm sorry I chuckled over your interpretation of scripture.

You cant just yank one proof verse out and say "see... there it is!" Thats frightful. In the light of the WHOLE councel of God, you cant interpret that verse that way.

Krispy

Re:, on: 2005/7/19 16:23

Quote:-------------------------You cant just yank one proof verse out and say "see... there it is!" Thats frightful-------------------------

who says? some feller on the internet named Krispy, seems to me, the apostles and those entrusted with canon did it allthe time in the New Testament.

You just don't like it coz it lays to waste your whole argument against something you don't agree with. One verse.

and I did NOT use that verse NON-contextually.

Pride my man, it's gonna kill you and your walk.

Die to self, before it's too late.

and ps...I'm outta here for the day, our Father told me "enuf"...I want to write a teaching on "heroes of revival", I wannna be productive for the Kingdom, instead of fussing on the net all day long......get the hint?

Re:, on: 2005/7/19 16:27

Quote:-------------------------Pride my man, it's gonna kill you and your walk.-------------------------

Now you're judging my heart?

Krispy

PS I'm not your man...

Re: ok, on: 2005/7/19 16:28Pride Krispy, it's gonna kill you and your walk.

NOW I'm gone for the day.

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Re:, on: 2005/7/19 16:41Somedays I wonder why I come to this website. I'm a glutton for abuse I guess...

Krispy

Re:, on: 2005/7/19 16:53

Quote:-------------------------who says? some feller on the internet named Krispy, seems to me, the apostles and those entrusted with canon did it all the time in the New Testament.-------------------------

HERMANUETICS... look the word up sometime, Neil. ;-)

Krispy

Re: - posted by MrBillPro (), on: 2005/7/19 17:32Has the fat lady sung on this thread? :-P

Re:, on: 2005/7/19 21:01It took me probly about 10 mins to catch up on this thread.

It's filled with knifes of the tounge. Everyone cutting each other.

The purpose of this thread, was to 'back thing up'. And when it wasn't, someone's character was judged in 'defense'.

Then, later it was 'mockery' and more bashing. Then stating a truth 'id rather write something edifying then bash oneanother' when that person in itself was doing so.

I'm not pointing a finger, im pointing them all. Everyone of you have been unfruitful in this conversation in the past fewpages.

This thread was to 'bring to light, a brother's teaching'. And discuss it further. But instead mockery and things hurtfulhave been sad.

I ask, that everyone of you, ask each other for forgiveness (on your own time, not on this thread). Then ask the Lord. Your sin can spread like wildfire, and actually has within the past few pages.

I ask, if these actions aren't taken, then i ask for this thread to be closed and deleted. No need to keep sin 'closed' but instead be burned and forgoten.

I love you all brethren, but let's please stay on topic and encourage one another. And test everything.

YeshuaIsMyGod, on: 2005/7/19 21:12I'm sorry brother, I didn't mean to offend you with this. Frankly, this whole thread had its genesis in diviseness and judgement, and I too am totally sick of it all. I am so sick of those within the Body just sniping and calling that "truth" and "contending for the faith", it stinks and its rotten fruit.

I remember yesterday (I think) I prayed to God that this thread would end, and I repent for my role in keeping this beast alive. Pray to God a moderator would lock it up, so it dies the death it so richly deserves.

I'm sorry brother, Neil

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Re: YeshuaIsMyGod, on: 2005/7/19 21:35

Quote:-------------------------this whole thread had its genesis in diviseness and judgement-------------------------

Thats a misrepresentation... and a judgement on me. I will apologize if I came off as mocking someone, but I will not apologize for standing for truth... even if someone else misinterprets it as something that it is not.

So to those who believe I mocked them, please know that I am sorry.

For those offended by truth... I offer no apology.

Krispy

Re: - posted by sermonindex (), on: 2005/7/19 21:49The conversation here with Neil and Krispy speak of their lack of maturity. BROTHERS! I hate to put my foot down evento brothers that are possibly older in the faith then me but these forums are for solid well-thought out conversations,edification! They are NOT for small few liner quibbling and backbiting. This is very silly and immature and please findanother forum to post on if this is the way you are going to post and interact on this site.

I do think people need to pray and make more well thought out posts on subjects and not get rash posting what fleshlythoughts are on the top of their head.

Reading this thread at the end makes me think of other mundane christian forums on the web that I feel its shameful that they bear the name Christian! come on! lets be sincere and those of us that know how to express ourselves do it patiently, with well-thought out phrases and comments. Even prayerfully post!

This thread is being locked

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