fort simpson, n.w.t. september 9, 1975. volume 26 ft simpson... · 2015. 1. 29. · fort simpson,...

MACKENZIE VALLEY PIPELINE INQUIRY

IN THE MATTER OF THE APPLICATIONS BY EACH OF

(a) CANADIAN ARCTIC GAS PIPELINE LIMITED FOR ARIGHT-OF-WAY THAT MIGHT BE GRANTED ACROSS

CROWN LANDS WITHIN THE YUKON TERRITORY ANDTHE NORTHWEST TERRITORIES, and

(b) FOOTHILLS PIPE LINES LTD. FOR A RIGHT-OF-WAYTHAT MIGHT BE GRANTED ACROSS CROWN LANDS

WITHIN THE NORTHWEST TERRITORIESFOR THE PURPOSE OF A PROPOSED MACKENZIE VALLEY PIPELINE

and

IN THE MATTER OF THE SOCIAL, ENVIRONMENTALAND ECONOMIC IMPACT REGIONALLY OF THE CONSTRUCTION,OPERATION AND SUBSEQUENT ABANDONMENT OF THE ABOVE

PROPOSED PIPELINE

(Before the Honourable Mr. Justice Berger, Commissioner)

Fort Simpson, N.W.T.September 9, 1975.

PROCEEDINGS AT COMMUNITY HEARING

Volume 26

The 2003 electronic version prepared from the original transcripts byAllwest Reporting Ltd.

Vancouver, B.C. V6B 3A7 CanadaPh: 604-683-4774 Fax: 604-683-9378

www.allwestbc.com

APPEARANCES

Prof. Michael Jackson for Mackenzie ValleyPipeline Inquiry;

Mr. Darryl CarterMr. A. Workman for Canadian Arctic

Gas Pipeline Lim-ited;

Mr. John EllwoodMr. R. Rutherford For Foothills Pipe

Line Ltd.

Mr. Russell Anthony For Canadian ArcticResources Committee

WITNESSES:Chief James ANTOINE 2614Daniel MODESTE 2629James SANQUEZ 2631Miss Violet CLI 2633Leo NORWEGIAN 2634,2673Bill LAFFERTY 2636Francois PAULLETTE 2648Mrs. Theresa VILLENEUVE 2654Miss Phoebe NAHANNI 2657Miss Betty MENICOCHE 2663Gerald ANTOINE 2569Charlie CHOLO 2676Miss Lorayne MENICOCHE 2676Rene LAMOTHE 2680Alfred NAHANNI 2712Lester ANTOINE 2718

EXHIBITS:C-194 Submission by Theresa Villeneuve 2656C-195. Submission by Phoebe Nahanni 2661C-196 Submission by Betty Menicoche 2669C-197 Submission by Gerald Antoine 2672C-l98 Submission by Lorayne Menicoche 2680C-199 Submission by Rene Lamothe 2712C-200 Submission by Lester Antoine 2719

Fort Simpson, N.W.T.September 9, 1975.

(PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)THE COMMISSIONER: We'll call

the hearing to order this afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.Mr. Bonnetrouge, I understand

you are going to be our interpreter today. Would youswear Mr. Bonnetrouge in as our interpreter? JOACHUM BONNETROUGE sworn as interpreter: THE COMMISSIONER: Chief Antoine, Iunderstand you and the members of the Band Council willbe speaking this afternoon. Could we swear you in thenbefore we begin? CHIEF ANTOINE, resumed: BAND COUNCIL sworn:

THE COMMISSIONER: You mighttranslate what I'm about to say, Mr. Bonnetrouge.

Ladies and gentlemen, some ofyou may not have been at the hearing we held in theCommunity Hall yesterday, so I will tell you that I amJudge Berger and we are here to consider what you haveto say about the proposals that have been made to builda pipeline up the Mackenzie Valley.

The representatives of thepipeline companies are her today because I have invitedthem to come to listen to what you have to say, and sothat you can ask them any questions that you want to.

These ladies seated here aresimply recording everything that is said today, so thatthere will be a permanent written record of thishearing at LaPointe Hall today.

Allwest Reporting Ltd.Burnaby, B.C. 2613

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These gentlemen up on thestage are with the C.B.C. and they broadcast in Englishand the native languages over the Northern Network eachday; the other people you see over there arerepresentatives of the press from Southern Canada andthey are here to listen to what you have to say as well.

The hearing here therefore isto allow me to know what you think about the proposalto build a pipeline through the Mackenzie Valley.That's why I am here, to listen to you.

CHIEF JAMES ANTOINE, resumed:THE COMMISSIONER: Chief

Antoine, if you wish to begin you may.THE WITNESS: Yes, first of

all I'd like to thank you, Mr. Justice Berger forcoming here to Simpson to listen the and especially tocome here today to listen to our version of how wethink about the pipeline and everything else that'srelated to the pipeline. I'd also like to comment thatwe as Dene people from Simpson haven't been heard byanybody else except for the last few months, and Ithink this is the first and last time that a hearing ofthis sort is going to happen to us. So we are going tobe speaking to you today about how we feel about thepipeline and other related problems that come through,the pipeline.

This seems to be our one andonly chance to speak out, so we'll try to tell you the


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best way we can about how we feel. I don't have anyfancy speeches or anything like that because what I'mgoing to say is what's inside of me and what's insidemy head and also what's inside my person, what Ibelieve in and how I see the situation. Other membersof the Band will also be speaking to you and see fewsituations.

To being with, I'd like toask the oil companies, Foothills' representative andGas Arctic representative to explain again what theyexplained yesterday, this time with an interpreter.

THE COMMISSIONER: Allright. That's a good idea. Mr. Workman, do you wantto take that seat there where Mr. Jackson is sitting?Three's a microphone there.

MR. WORKMAN: Canadian ArcticGas has put forth a proposal to transport gas from theArctic to the south. The gas that we are looking at isAmerican gas that has been discovered in Alaska andCanadian gas in the delta. The American gas fromAlaska would join with the Canadian gas from the deltaat a point, you see on the map just south of Inuvik,the combined gases would go up the Mackenzie Valley onthe east side of the Mackenzie River through a 48-inch-- that's a 4-foot diameter -- pipeline to a point justabout six miles upstream of Fort Simpson, where itwould cross the Mackenzie to continue down intoAlberta, at which point it would be divided, part goingwest and part going east, and part going to the states;American gas going to the States, the Canadian gas


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going to Eastern Canada.Now, I'd like to make sure

that everybody understands that when we talk about gaswe don't mean gasoline. It's not the gas that you putin your automobiles, in your kickers -- this is a gasthat's something like the air, it blows through thepipeline like the wind would blow through the pipe. Itis not a liquid. I hope I'm making this clear it's nota liquid like gasoline, it's a vapor just like the air,a vapor that burns.

Now the pipeline that wepropose to build would go through a lot of country, thatis frozen as permafrost. This is sort of criticalmaterial to build a pipeline in, in that if thepermafrost were to be allowed to thaw out, there could beproblems with the land moving and so or, problems n atI'm sure you are well aware of in your experience withpermafrost. To make sure that this doesn't happen withthe pipeline, the gas will be refrigerated after everystation where it's compressed, every pumping station,every place where we push the gas along we willrefrigerate the gas, we'll cool it so that it will not beof a temperature that will affect the permafrost.

The pipe carrying this gaswill be buried under the ground so that when construc-tion is completed there will be no pipe visible exceptfor these compressor stations which will be spaced aboutevery 50 miles. There will be one compressor stationabout six miles from the other side of the river here atFort Simpson. The rest of the line between these


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compressor stations will be completely covered over, re-seeded, and probably would make this almost a roadwaybut with vegetation growing on it.

When construction is finishedand we start moving gas through line, it will have adistrict office located in Fort Simpson which will lookafter the operating of the line from somewhere aroundWrigley down to the 60th Parallel. This office willemploy eventually about 60 or 70 people. There will bemore than that initially, but after all the equipmentgets working properly there will probably be 65 peopleemployed directly on the line in Fort Simpson. Thesewill all be northerners if at all possible; we will, infact we are at this moment through the Nortran TrainingProgram training northerners to take over all functionsin the operating of these stations and if they are notcompletely trained by the time it comes on-stream,training will continue so that all positions can befilled by northerners.

If there are any otherquestions regarding the Canadian Arctic Gas proposalI'm sure there will be an opportunity later for anyoneto delve into that area. In the meantime I think maybeFoothills should have an opportunity to describe theirproject.

MR. ELLWOOD: My name is JohnEllwood and I am representing Foothills Pipe Lines.

The project which we haveapplied to build here would be a 42-inch pipelinerunning from the Mackenzie Delta to the Alberta-B.C.


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boundary where it would connect with the existingpipeline facilities in Alberta and British Columbia.Our proposal does not include any prevision to ship gasfrom the American fields in Prudhoe Bay.

In addition to that mainpipeline to ship the delta gas to markets in EasternCanada we have included in our proposal a series ofsmaller lateral lines to bring the natural gas into 11different communities in the Mackenzie Valley and GreatSlave area for use as a home heating fuel.

The pipeline which we haveproposed is similar to what Mr. Workman has described inthat it is an all-buried pipeline, the only parts thatare above-ground are in the compressor station yard.There will be 17 of these compressors located along theline, they are spaced approximately 50 miles apart.

The gas in our pipeline wouldalso be chilled or refrigerated to prevent melting thepermafrost in the northern sections of the line.

This project would require a3-year construction schedule, the first year beinginvolved in activities such the opening of the gravelborrow sources, construction of some access roads,clearing of the line; the second and third years ofconstruction would be the actual laying of the pipelinethe ground.

We are proposing to have amajor district operations office here in Fort Simpson.This office would employ 91 people on a fulltime basisand those personnel would be built up over a six-year


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period starting from when the pipeline is in operation.As Mr. Workman mentioned we

are currently training northern people to fill thesepositions through the Nortran program, of which we areone of the sponsoring companies.

That is a very briefdescription of our project, and I'll be happy to answerany other questions you may have.

CHIEF ANTOINE: Thank you.Now I'd like to tell you

about a brief history, the Dene version of a briefhistory of Fort Simpson.

Before 1921 people used tolive off the land along the rivers and if you go alongthe river you'll still see cabins, and people are stillusing these cabins today and this is where the peopleused to live. Life was hard but it was healthy and itwas good and clean. There were many hardships that myforefathers encountered at that time. The people werehonest, respectful of one another, and they treatedeach other with respect. My people at that time were anation. They had their own leaders, they had elderswho gave direction, they had learned men who knew howto cure people, and give good directions to thepeople, so that they could continue living off theland.

There was game and fish, plantsand berries as food to make the people grow, and lifewas good, and only the strong and the smart survived. Ifeel that my people were a nation at that time and


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today we're still saying that we're a nation. We'rethe Dene nation. We are the Slavey people here andwe're part of this nation. I think we were a nationat the time because the country of Canada in 1921signed a peace treaty with us, Treaty 11, and thereare still old members of my Band today who were aliveat that time and who are still alive today, who tellme that that first treaty was a peace treaty, and nowthe government is saying that the land was ceded overto the Crown as the result of the signing of thetreaty, But I say that the government is lying and thegovernment has cheated the people, and now they'restealing the land. We all feel as Dene people thatthis land is still our land, and since 1921 as Chiefand Band Council we speak for the people, the treatypeople, and a lot of the non-status and Metis, becausethey are our relatives, they are our brothers and oursisters. So it doesn't matter if there are 1,500 inthis town, the majority of the people who I think Ispeak for are the permanent residents of thiscommunity, not somebody who has just been here twoyears, three years, looking to make a fast buck andthen going home.

The treaty was signed 54years ago, and on the Dene side we respected andhonored this treaty. That is why there are so manywhite people here today, because we respected andhonored that treaty, But it's like a history that younever hear of or read in the history book.

The older members of my Band


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are telling me that the government is cheating, theysay the white man is lying and he's cheating. That ishow come we're so poor. That was 54 years ago that thetreaty was signed, and since that time there are moreand more white people coming in; but until this last10-15 years in my own life-span, I'm a young man, thatwithin my own life-span I've seen a lot of changeshappen in Simpson, and these changes maybe were goodfor the white man, but they were not good for Indianpeople.

Members of the white, communityyesterday said this town is frustrated and they had a lotof fancy words, but we feel that we're more frustratedthan anybody else in this town because we've been kickedaround, discriminated against, and treated -- mistreated,and as leader of my people when I speak out in this townI get personally attacked at public meetings. They don'tseem to know that I'm speaking for my people.

For a long time Indian peoplein Simpson haven't been speaking up but since last yeara few of us realized that we're going to have to startspeaking up, otherwise I don't know what's going tohappen to us here in Simpson.

But like I said, within thelast 10-15 years things really started happening andthings were really changing, and a lot of peoplesuffered as a result of this changing, and the onlypeople who were suffering were the Indian peoplebecause we're born here, we live here and this is wherewe're going to die. The invaders who are coming into


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the town are from the south, they've got their homesdown south, they've got their families down south, andthey come here for two or three years, they get on theVillage Council and every time us Indian people want todo something for ourselves, they expect us to run tothem for their stamp of approval. I don't think it'sthat. By rights, since this is our land, and we stillconsider ourselves nations, and the Chief and the BandCouncil is recognized officially, by rights what thesewhite people should be doing is coming to the Chief andBand Council and telling us the things like whatthey're doing in town and what they hope to set up.

When I say "the white people"I don't talk about any individuals, I'm talking aboutthe white people in terms of representing the whitesociety, because that's what's happening.

I've been chief for about ayear, and along with my councillors we recognize thatwe have problems, we have hundreds and hundreds ofproblems as a result of what I've just explained toyou. Yesterday somebody with a fancy speech had allthe plans worked out for the Indian people for thepipeline, and that was a good speech, but we as Indianpeople, we think we're smart enough and intelligentenough and we know what's going on around us now, weare becoming aware of what really the white man is allabout and I don't think -- I think we could decide forourselves how we want the future to be for ourselves,and for the young ones and the generations that are yetto come. We have to decide for ourselves as Indian


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people to go ahead and do what we want. There's manythings that have been going on, have been going on inSimpson that Indian people disapproved of, but thewhite people in town here just went ahead and did it,but nobody spoke out because there's too much confusionamong the Indian people within the last ten years whenwhite man's development and progress has come in.

This development and progressto me is a white man's term, and the way I see progressand development, it's just destruction of the nativepeople's way of life, and it's destroying us as a people.We realize all this. These are problems for Indianpeople to recognize and face, and deal with ourselves.

I think this is where thepipeline fits in, because I understand that the twocompanies are going to go ahead if they get the licencewith not regard to the Dene people's request for a landsettlement before pipeline. I don't want to agree withthat. I think that the pipeline companies should waitand respect the wishes of the people, the wishes of usDene people who live here on this land, and what yourprogress and development will bring with this pipelineis more destruction. It's going to cause a lot moreproblems for Indian people.

First of all, before we evenaccept it, we have to have a land claims, we have to havea land settlement to settle this question of who reallyowns the land, and to find out that the government islying, to see if the land is really ceded over to theCrown. That is the first thing that has to happen before


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we even think about accepting this pipeline. I'm notworried about the money or the jobs that this pipeline isgoing to give because as Indian people we don't thinkabout the money. We think about the lives of the peoplehere because the way I see it, if this pipeline goesahead, it's just going to destroy a lot of people, it'sgoing to kill a lot of people indirectly, it's going toturn -- as it is it's a real problem, and I just don'tthink about what would happen with the pipeline. All I'msaying is I don't want the pipeline to come in herebecause with the highway coming in in the last 5-6 years,it has changed Simpson altogether, and a lot of problemsarose out of this highway. If this pipeline comesthrough, it's going to cause problems to be a hundredfoldmore. We're the people who live here and we're thepeople who are gong going to suffer. I think that mypeople are suffering enough without the pipeline.

Fort Simpson is a town whichis about half native and half white, and it's a townthat has a lot of tension, racial tension -- well, theway I see it as a leader, and the tension seems to betaken out on me every time I speak out. What I havesaid is really heavy words, but that's the way I feel.I'm not afraid of speaking out for my people. what I'msaying is from what members of my Band have told me,and a few older people I know are more strong in wordsabout what's going on now, a lot of them are but theway this town is, and they have to live here, I don'tthink any of them would be speaking out in this tone.

But I'm not afraid of the


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consequences because I really feel that what's going onall around us as the native people in the north has tochange. A lot of things have to change for us because,for example, over the year as Chief I have tried a numberof things and I found out a number of things about thegovernment and how it works; and every time we try to dosomething, within the system, the white democraticsystem, it don't seem to work for us, as Indian people.We tried it, we tried to use it, it don't work for us.

The reason why I soundbitter is because I've experienced this, and because ofmy efforts I'm attacked by the non-native. we've triedthe system and we're getting really frustrated. We'regoing to keep on trying to use the system until, we getfrustrated enough that we're going to try changing it.I think that's' where it's directed, that's where it'sgoing. I would stand with my brother from Good Hopethat he would lay down his life for what he believesin, and I feel the same way. There's a lot of us youngpeople who feel the same way.

This is what I wanted to sayabout what has gone on in the past and what is going ontoday; but then we also think, and I've talked withpeople about the future and right now the way it'sgoing, like I said, it doesn't look too good. But thenwe have to think of our young people and what we'retrying to do today is always with that thought in mindso that the future would be a lot better for the youngpeople than it is for us here today.

But to build a pipeline and the


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social destruction it's going to cause among my people,and I can't agree with that pipeline. Environmentallytoo, I can't see how it's going to work, because who arebetter environmentalists than Indian people who have usethe land all their lives? The people tell me what'sgoing to happen in the muskeg and the river crossings,and things like this, and the power of the ice on theriver, and the power of the water itself. It's strongand I don't see how environmentally it's going to be goodfor the environment. I just could only see it destroyingthe environment. I'm concerned about the environment,too, because a lot of Indian people in the NorthwestTerritories live off the land and if something happensthat it doesn't work out according to the paper that thegas companies done immense study on, it's going todestroy the way of life, the livelihoods of a lot ofpeople all over this north country, say if it broke aboutsix miles from here on the river.

During the construction of thepipeline, too, I see it destroying a lot of things, alot of destruction to the steams and to the environmentitself, and on the land; and the noise pollution which Ithink is going to drive the animals a lot further awayfrom the along the river. Since the highway come inthere is hardly any game along the highway route, andwith all this other exploration and things like that, itjust drives the game away from the noise, and withthese compressor stations, I understand they make alot of noise, high-pitched noise, and this woulddrive the game away from the line, too. So I disagree


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with it on the environmental basis too.They say in Alaska where

they're building an oil pipeline right now thatconditions in the towns along the route, the socialconditions are really bad. Like the prices haveskyrocketed, there is one place where the kids have togo to school hours a day in two shifts, and they sayclose to here they're going to have 34,000 men, That's atwo or three year job so they're going to be bringing intheir families. That would increase the population by5,000, 6,000 people, and this would be good for thebusiness men in this town because they would make moneyon these people but it would not be good for the Indianpeople who live here, because like I said, there's a lotof problems as it is and the whole situation in thistown would change, too, and this would cause a lot moreproblems for Indian People. It's hard for an Indianperson in this town. There's a few lucky ones, luckynative people, a lot of Dene people who have some sortof education and who are holding down jobs in the whitesociety. These are the few lucky people. But thenthere is the majority of them who haven't gone to schooland we used to live off the land until the changesstarted happening, and because of that they can't goback on the land because the prices are high as it is toobtain supplies to go in the bush, and the Hudson's Baydoesn't even have some of the supplies that they used tohave in the past for native people to go in the bush.

So in this way the conditionsare all against native people to turn back to the land.


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There used to be a lot of dogs in this town, a lot ofsled dogs, and in the last few years the R.C.M.P. andpeople who shoot dogs have wiped out all the sled dogpopulation in this town because maybe the trapperwanted to try the wage economy and left the dogs tiedup, and get loose, and then they shoot them, don't evenput them in the pound. I know for a fact when lastyear a g dog was shot in somebody's yard by theR.C.M.P. Things like that has been going on, but asthe sled dog to return back to the land, there's hardlyany left in Simpson because of the people who wereupholding the white man's law of killing dogs.

As it is, the Town of Simpsonsplit in half of white and Dene, and the first time Ithink in the history of Simpson, two weeks ago, I satdown with the Chairman of Village Council and Presidentof the Chamber of Commerce and this is the first time Iever heard of it happening at Simpson, were the leadersof the white H community, and myself as leader of treatyIndians, sit down and really talk about working together,of co-operating. I think it's a good idea because Ithink the white people are here to stay. But then wehave to co-operate if they're going to stay, but thenit's going to have to be a mutual co-operation, I think,Before that ever happens I think all this prejudice anddiscrimination has to be settled by recognizing the dif-ferences and respecting that difference, and treatingeach other as equals. But then they have to understandnative people. What I'm saying here, I think, this isthe first time it's ever been brought out in public about


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what I've said. That is all I have to say, so I thankyou for listening. The members of our Council I thinkare going to say a few words, and different members ofthe Band.

(WITNESS ASIDE)

DANIEL MODESTE, sworn:THE COMMISSIONER: Your name,

sir?THE WITNESS: Daniel Modeste.THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

Go ahead, sir.THE INTERPRETER: I will talk

a little bit about the treaty and what happened at thefirst treaty here around Fort Simpson. I wasapproximately years old at the time, and the treatyparty landed in a scow. At the time there was nokickers, so they were using oars and paddles. We wereliving in tents at the time and I remembered AlbertNorwegian's dad or Albert Norwegian's grandfather beinginvited to come down to see the treaty party. Thetreaty party had along an interpreter by the name ofJimmy Sibbeston, and the party said, "We want to giveyou money," and the old man said, "What for?" I thinkif I can interpret right, he said, "We want to help youfix up your land and we'll give you things so that yourlife could be better." By things he probably meantsupplies yearly.

To this day I have seen nosupplies come in that is going to be of benefit to the


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Indian, and to this day you don't see an Indian try topull something like that on anybody. We see a lot offreight come down by barge, referring to N.T.C.L.,Kap's Transport. You don't see any Indian name on theamount of freight that comes in, the tonnages, youdon't see an Indian name written on the crate. Thatsort of thing you don't see an Indian do, that istrying to fool somebody else.

At the first encounter withthe treaty party they wanted to give him money, but theold man, Norwegian and the old man, Antoine, refused;but after a few days they accepted the money.

Then according to DanielModeste, he thinks that old man Modeste and old manAntoine did not receive did not accept the moneybecause they didn't understand what the treaty partywas all about, But he feels and thinks that somebodyelse did accept treaty money, or made treaty.

The first treaty party promisea lot of things and to this day I have seen with my owntwo eyes the neglect or the -- there was just no helpgiven to the Indians, and through his experiences, Iguess, he saw how the government refused to help out thepoor. So he's referring to the poor getting poorer, andall of this he has heard being talked about at the firsttreaty, and to this day he has seen a lot of promisesbroken when they had that first treaty.

Referring to the promises andthe broken promises to this day, when is this going toend, because with my own eyes and through my experiences


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I have seen where the Indian people have been neglectedbecause there was no help or assistance given to them bythe government; and I've seen two young able men killthemselves, actually they're dead now because they hadno jobs and they didn't have anything to eat or theywere very poor, so they did go to the government -- he'sprobably referring to a social welfare worker and he wastold, "You're able bodied so there's nothing we can dofor you," and in that sort of a way I've seen two youngmen kill themselves.

The white man always mademoney on this land and after they've made their moneyyou don't see them, you don't hear about them any morebecause they're not here any more. While they aremaking or once they have started making money and aregoing good, they forget who helped them make that moneyand that's forgetting the poor Indian people, I guess,

(WITNESS ASIDE)JAMES SANQUEZ, sworn:THE COMMISSIONER: What's

your name to begin with?THE INTERPRETER: Jimmy

SanquezTHE COMMISSIONER: Go ahead,

sir.THE INTERPRETER: Referring to

the past and the treaties and the conditions, he sayssince recently with some education the younger peoplehave begun to work and have begun to fulfil some of theneeds of the Indian people. A long time ago when


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treaties and promises were made, the white man probablydestroyed the papers that were signed and in that senseit wasn't interpreted correctly to them so that theycould understand, and at that time the older people sincethey were considered real bushmen, didn't understand thewhite man's theories and ways of manipulating, I guess,He says the papers that were signed and that wereinterpreted were probably burned, probably torn apart andburned by the treaty party at the time. But these daysthings are getting a little bit better, the youngerones are getting more educated and they're learningmore about the white man's ways, so things recently havebegun to be a little have begun to get a little bitbetter.

But we still have onedifficulty because these younger people that have learnedsome of the white man's ways are not being listened to.

As far as the pipeline isconcerned, we are worried because a. lot of us still;live off the land and when you talk about technologyand pipeline, we don't know too much about it becausewe are worried about the animals, because the animalslive directly off the land -- its plants, lichen, andother materials that they lire off, and that sortof a way, it's sort of a cycle that the Indians liveoff the land and the animals live directly off the land,that is why we are worried and want protection for ourland.

Referring to the pipelineriver crossings, we are worried about that, too, about


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the river and its magnificence and power, I guess everyspringtime when the ice goes, and also in the summertimewhen we have forest fires. What would happen if we had abig forest fire and the pipeline was only a few feetunderneath it? That's all I have to say or now.

(WITNESS ASIDE)THE COMMISSIONER: I think

maybe we'll take a 10-minute adjournment and then comeback. We can adjourn for ten minutes and have a cup ofcoffee and stretch our legs, and then we'll come backagain.(PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)(PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, ladiesand gentlemen, we'll call our hearing to order again andhear from the other members of the Council and fromothers.

MRS. VIOLET CLI sworn:THE WITNESS: My name is Violet

Cli.THE COMMISSIONER: Excuse me,

Mrs. Cli.Mr. Scott, would you see if you

can persuade the children to keep the noise down? Sorry,go ahead.

THE INTERPRETER: My name isViolet Cli. I can speak English quite well but I'lladdress you in Slavey.

Ever since I was a child I


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have I heard many things, particularly when mygrandfather spoke to us, he spoke of white man's comingand their promises and what they had aid to us, and Isee that they come for meetings, promise a lot ofthings, go back, go back to where they came from andsend letters and letters, but to this day things haven'tmaterialized yet, Ever since I was a child I havetravelled and learned a lot from my parents. They tookus in the bush and taught us a lot of things about theland. They taught us the way to live and the way to actin the bush ways. I will say only so much for now,since I'm a bit shaky.

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank youWell, feel free later on to say anything you wish to.

(WITNESS ASIDE)

LEO NORWEGIAN, sworn:THE WITNESS: My name is Leo

Norwegian of Fort Simpson. All my life I live Indian, soI live like white man too; but to make my story short theworst problem of this pipeline, they want to push thepipeline through pipeline company I mean I should say andus natives, we figure this is our land.

As soon -- we've beendiscriminated one another between pipeline outfit andnative, but it's not us who are doing it; it's our govern-ment. As soon as we get our land settlement -- I'm notspeaking very good English -- and we can go to the pipelinepeople and say, "Sure we build a pipeline because it's mostimportant to somebody else in the south," I seen that.


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I been working on a lot ofconstruction in my time and I know what this means to a lotof people. It's not only native, it's going to beimportant to everybody's benefit. But we must respect forone another between white man and native. That's the mostimportant thing.

At the same time right now Igot a program going, we got some money from who did weget money from? Alcoholic Education, and I was electedpresident to go in the bush and train at least kids ayear to live, how to live off the land, and we got to goback. My time is running out, not only me but thepeople the same age as me, our time is going to run out.Like the fine ones here sitting beside me, if our timeran out we'll forget all these people, how they used tolive when we were young. So what we trying to do, JimmySanquez and I, we trying to go out and take a bunch ofkids and show them how our old people used to live. Atthe same time, all discriminated between pipeline andthe native, it's not that, it's the government thatsince 1921 what they promise us, and never was correct.

If I owe somebody, I'll go tohim and pay my debt back; but they never did, so that'swhat we're waiting for. As long as they. pay us ourdebt, what they told our grandfather, our father,-ourmother, our grandmother, everything is going to be happybut at the same time we got to respect for one another,that's the only thing.

Everybody criticizing one another-- they criticize Liquor Store, bar, it's not that, I The


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people got to live with it, and we got to learn tounderstand one another. Many people, they criticize whiteman, Indian criticize white man and white man criticizeIndian. But it's not that, we got to understand oneanother and how to live together. We've got to livetogether. The white man's not going to go back outside andthe Indian's going to go back north. No way, We got tolive together. Thank you.

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you,,sir.

(WITNESS ASIDE)

BILL LAFFERTY sworn:THE WITNESS: I'm Bill

Lafferty, a member of the Territorial Council, bornhere at Fort Simpson, and I am presently residenthere.

I have on many occasionslooked upon the Inquiries and I have kept up to it fornot only political interests on behalf of theconstituency which I represent, but rather for my ownpersonal interests and for the benefit of many peoplewho have made their homes here, have taken root, andwho have re-generated themselves in the history of theNorthwest Territories. I am particularly concernedabout those of us who are Metis people. I am a Metis,in spite of whatever you may call inc. You may referto me as an Indian, a native, or any other thing, butlet me tell you my side of the story.

I rather enjoyed what Mr. Leo


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Norwegian had said, the brief remarks that he made; thesimple fact remains that it's true, what he said, andthat's all that's important.

I think in many instances manyof us people in the north here that are reaching ourmiddle years will honestly tell you that we did live a,multicultural society here in the Northwest Territories,particularly here in Fort Simpson, which is the home ofmany of the Metis people in the Pacific Northwest, in thatthere were many white people that migrated here many, manyyears ago dating back as long as 200 years. Of course,many of these people have taken Indian wives, for domesticand biological reasons, and in most instances they didn'tjust take just -- as Leo pointed out and somebody elsepointed out -- the weak, they picked out the better of thecrop, and this is being continued today.

By the same token, on the otherside of the coin the white men that came to this countrywere not the scum of the earth, as the types that come intoday, but rather the hardy and good people. Many of usin this Fort Simpson area that are Metis are descendantsof the inter-action of people, whether they b be calledFrench, Irish, or whatever they may be, or Slavey Indian.Of course, we have another thing that's happening today,that we are deteriorating in many ways -- socially,economically, and so on.

I am not speaking to you today:,Mr. Berger, in my official capacity, nor for politicalreasons. I am merely speaking to you as an individual'person who regards himself to be Metis, and who takes


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deep pride in the convictions of the people who Irepresent. We have a history in the Northwest Territoriesthat are founded in the history books of Canada. We havea way of life that is not Indian or white. We have manythings about us that is unique in Canadian society. Manyof us people in the Northwest Territories have given upour lives to help not only the white man but the Indianalso.

Of course, we talk about theHalf-Breed Commission of 1921, which includes the treatyIndian people, We talk about a Dene nation in referenceto Indian people; but really the term "Dene" in Slavelanguage, as I speak it, does not mean "Indian people",It means "any human being". "Monia Dene", that means awhite man.

Looking back at the historicside of the people, you will find that it is not only theSlavey Indian people or the people in the NorthwestTerritories that refer to themselves as "the people", youwill find the same terms applied to all native Indianpeople in America, particularly those Navajo Indians whorefer to themselves as Dene, the same terminology orphraseology, whichever way you put it.

We talk about education fornative people. I for one have a reasonable education. Ihave attended many years of-studies. I have travelledaround the world, there are only about a dozen countriesthat I haven't seen in the world. I have worked with theArab people, in all Arabian countries, I've beenthroughout Algeria right into Greece, I've known men such


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as Mr. Arafat who is a P.L.O. leader today, and men likethat, of that nature, and I am a native boy here. I canpitch my wits up against any white man that comes hereand I could probably show him a thing or two for thatmatter many people.

But I as a native person in mycommunity am disregarded by my own people as to beinferior to the white intelligence. If there isanything! that makes me angry, it's a few recentimmigrants here telling us how to run our own lives. Weare the people that originated here.

But in spite of my emotionalfeelings toward social conditions, I have enoughexperience to realize that we must work together, livetogether, and if we have to die together, we must. Whatwe are really doing here is we are creating a littleracial war something like Ireland. Fortunately, it's notreligious, in some cases; in some instances I have mydoubts.

Really what we are talkingabout is economics. It's really not a land question.Let me talk to you about my own viewpoints on thepipeline. I don't think that the pipeline is going totake too much land. I have personally guarded pipelinesacross the Sinai Desert and into Saudi Arabia from theCity of Tripoli and Lebanon, and I have never yet to seepipelines taking any more than a few feet of land. Theamount of land-required for the pipeline, as I considerit, is not as much as the land required by the fewfarmers in this area alone.


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Again if we go back into thehistory of the pipelines, I remember when I was at theArmy Engineer's Camp in Chilliwack, the controversy overthe natural gas pipeline from Fort St. John to Fort GoodHope -- or to hope, B.C., and all this scare and all thathad been created by the ecologists as to the land am, andtoday we find there are more animals in these regionswhere the pipeline has gone through, and farm haveflourished. So in that experience I over-rule he factthat the pipeline will not do that much ecologicaldamage.

Secondly, the damage of peoplecoming in and what social impact this would have, I thinkthe damage has been done already, and it is time to dorepairs and to take further -- to take action that wouldprevent further deterioration of a way of life that manypeople seem to be concerned about. That is the Indianand Metis way of life, and they both must be protected,they both cannot be merged or assimilated, Just as muchas the Indian people cannot be assimilated in a whitecommunity, I believe it is just as wrong for the Metis tobe assimilated in an Indian community simply because manyof us people that are Metis consider ourselves to beCanadian, and as a Canadian I wore the uniforms of thiscountry, I am a decorated man, a veteran, and I did notdo this for Indian people, I did this for. the love ofmy country as a Canadian person.

We look at -- I look upon thepipeline as an economic factor in our native society herein Fort Simpson, and when I say 'native" I mean all those


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kids who are supposedly white that are born here andtheir future. It would secure the kind of futuredevelopment for our Community of Fort Simpson, which isin some instances called the "axle", but I look uponSimpson as being more than the axle, I look at FortSimpson as the key to northern development.

We talk about the spin-offeffects of the pipeline at Fort Simpson and othercommunities. Well, perhaps Simpson would benefit morefrom the spin-off, I don't know. I'm not an economist, Ican't tell you; but I do know that if Fort Simpson grows,the surrounding communities of Fort Liard, Nahanni Butte,Trout Lake, Jean Marie River, Providence, Fort Wrigley,all these little communities will benefit from FortSimpson's industrialization, and perhaps even furtherdown the Mackenzie River.

Of course, we have apopulation increase here among the native Indian andMetis people. I am a man in my early 40's, and in myshort lifetime I have seen the native population in FortSimpson increase from a mere 100 to several hundreds.All these young people today, and there are many sittinghere, in the next few years will he married off and theyin turn will have their families. Presently our nativepopulation in the Northwest Territories has expanded toa point where it can no longer be sustained by atrapping and hunting economy, lest we kill off allthe animals; and of course, what are the ecologistsgoing to say then? We would have to implement lawsor legislate laws to keep the Indian from hunting


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in order to preserve wildlife.The social impact of the

pipeline is simply, it can be controlled. Policing can beinstituted here in the Northwest Territories, educationalmeasures can be taken to educate the native people towarddefending themselves and to partake in the development.I personally see a great potential in the pipeline.

The danger presently is thatwe have too many people coming in the north, recentarrivals who in most instances are not resident of the Inorth but speaking on behalf of the native people,confusing much of the Indian interest.

Then the fact that environmentalchanges are always automatic even with a local increasein population, and we experienced this right here in FortSimpson. We are so concerned about the environmentaldamages that are distant from Fort Simpson, we are nottalking about Fort Simpson, Look at the damage' in FortSimpson, I have to live in this community. On a dry dayI can't walk without getting home and having to I wash myhair because it's so dusty. I cannot walk the streets ona rainy day without having to wear my rubber . boots. Icannot take a drink down below on the river withouthaving to be concerned about raw sewerage from FortSimpson being pumped into the river. These are thethings that are created by the local people, and theseare the things that we should be contending with at home.I don't care what they do to Nahanni Mountains up here,they can rip it all down, I don't live there. I livehere in Simpson. So these changes are automatic


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and they happen here at home.To prevent furthering this kind

of damages, we should be seeking ways and means toeducate our local population, and that includes thetreaty Indian people, and that includes the Metis people,and that includes the white members of the community. Wehave one total community of Fort Simpson.

I imagine if we were to controlthe environmental damages in our community andsurrounding, it would be difficult to say to the BandCouncil, "You look after the environmental damage for theIndian people, and we'll look after the ones for thewhites," and then where am I going to go? I'm a Metis,I'm a member of this community, I don't know where to go.I don't want to join the white world. I don't want tojoin the Indian world either. Where do I go? I'm aCanadian, I'd have to go back out somewhere in the cityand find myself a place where I could be comfortable.

First of all, health problemsare mutual.

Secondly, the water we drink isnot any different than the water white people drink.

Thirdly, if I had tuberculosisI don't think that whites get any different tuberculosisthan I do.

Then we talk about social impact,drunkenness and so on that's mentioned here, I personallydon't think that white drunks are any better than Indiandrunks, For that matter, I don't think that an Indiandrunk is any stupider than a white drunk. They're all the


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same.So with that I'll go back to

the history of Fort Simpson, and many of you know mehere. Many of you are my relations. I knew some ofthese people that are talking here when they werechildren in diapers and probably packed them around.

Fort Simpson, as I remember itas a teenager here going to school, and there's a coupleof priests sitting back here and they'll probably tellyou the same unless their records are incorrect, but Ican honestly tell you in the presence of my God thatthere was only one treaty Indian family living in FortSimpson. The Indian, as Leo mentioned, and the chieflived by family by family from Fort Providence right onto Fort Simpson, up the Liard River and down the LiardRiver between their communities. At the time I was yearsold, Fort Simpson only had about seven or eight whitefamilies that were resident here, The rest were ArmySignal staff and the R.C.M.P., and they were not verymany.

The Indians came to this villagein the summer months, and since they were individualpeople, they were not tribal people, they chose to livein their own selected areas in the community. The peoplefrom the Liard River lived out there on the flats forfour miles, and the people from up the Mackenzie liveddown here on the flats, in one corner of the flats, whilethe people from down the Mackenzie River would live alongthe river banks up to the mission, and that included oneof the greatest chiefs we had, and it was this girl's


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grandfather, old Chief Cli, a man to this day I stillrespect, am people were controlled. The discipline washarsh in that if 'you didn't live according to thecustoms of the family, you were banned from the family.There was not very many jailbirds in those days. Thecommunity was predominantly Metis people, Many of themleft Fort Simpson, my age group. We are spread outtoday, you'll find Metis people from Fort Simpson inAlberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, the State of Minnesota,British Columbia; name it and you'll find a Metis personfrom Fort Simpson -- the Plakett's, Lameur's, and manyothers I can name you, the McGern's, Coopers,Whitelock's, and there are many.

What happened, as I understand?In 1954 for educational reasons the anthropologists; thatcam to this country and the sociologists with thedevelopment of social development incited the Indianpeople to come in to live in the communities. That onlyled to the disillusionment of these people, andbewilderment to a point where they are today floundering.There is no direction.

The economy of hunting andtrap-, ping began to deteriorate in 1947 when I was stilla child here in Fort Simpson, My father will tell you.My uncles will tell you, Mr. Tringle will tell you, andmany others, Mr. McPherson and many others will tellyou.' The fur prices dropped to nil in 1947, there wasnothing, 1949 it came back up, but even then people hadto leave Fort Simpson to Hay River, Yellowknife, NormanWells, wherever they could find jobs.


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But then the native people thatcame from Fort Simpson, Providence and these areas tomove into Hay River in the fishing industry were mergedwith the incoming Metis people from Northern Manitoba andSaskatchewan. The commercial fishermen flocked in therefrom eastern provinces, absorbing what native People wehad left, and that left Fort Simpson defenceless withoutfoundation of any kind of economics, and it just sat.Some do-gooder came here and they were going to build anempire here, I suppose; it didn't happen.

Of course , with a large numberof people coming in employed by the government, many ofthem being single, and the exploration work by themineral interested people we found every generation ofpeople,, as I said earlier. We are not coming out with arace of Indians, but we are coming out with a realCanadian people, northerners. Many of these people havesettled here to take root, and greatly to the benefit ofthe Indian people because they have found security incommunity living. At least they could get welfare, getmedical care, better education for the children, and manyof them have personally expressed to me they see a hopein their children.

Recently I've been hearingstatements at different meetings in reference to 'thetreaties, and that it is a peace treaty. I agree totallywith that peace treaty. I support the treaty totally.The fact remains that that treaty is being threatenedpresently, not from outside but from internal forces.

Of course there have been many


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promises made that even I remember in my youth. Iremember one time interpreting for an Indian agent here,promising the Indians what he would provide for them ifthey would bring their children in; but fortunately ;that Indian was a little too wise, he didn't bring hischildren in, but they were definitely promises that were- never kept. Today the expectation that these promisesare at a point where they are almost fulfilled is causinga lot of disturbances in our community, not a racialthing but rather hatred. Hatred not only toward thewhite man but hatred among ourselves, and there is a lotof hatred.

As I said earlier, I am aMetis, a native to this community and to this land, and Iwalk down the street being glared at by my own nativecousins who asked me for my support, and how can I supportsomebody or something that hates me, that will not speakto me? How do I begin to understand or learn when - thereis no dialogue? How can I understand the white man if hedoesn't talk to me? Fortunately, I have found a littlecourage within myself to speak honestly,, truthfully,fully, and I never speak from a prepared speech becauseI don't want to be accused of anyone saying that it hadbeen prepared for me. I speak from the bottom of myheart and the top of my head, as I see things. I workthe same way in legislation, and I hope that if I wasable to make any contribution here, these are my personalviews, it is not in the capacity of a Territorialcouncillor or representative person, but rather a personalviewpoint as a native person in this country, born here


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at Fort Simpson, all my relatives including Leo Norwegianhere who is a distant relation of mine, and many of hisnephews including the chief, these people are all relatedto me, and I speak simply as I have found things and as Ihave experienced it.

I have worked with many men inthis world. I have worked personally with Major GeneralBurns, many of you heard of him, and in my officialcapacity in the Northwest Territories I've filled as amember of the Board of Directors of the water, and my ownpolitical position is quite strong. But these thingsdon't mean a darn thing to me if I cannot be happy in myown environment, and that is at home in Fort Simpson,Thank you very much.

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you,Mr. Lafferty.

(WITNESS ASIDE)THE INTERPRETER: I guess I'll

have to interpret that, eh?THE COMMISSIONER: Well yes, I

want you to interpret it as best you can. I think youtook notes as you went along so try to repeat the pointsthat Mr. Lafferty made.

(INTERPRETER COMPLIES)

FRANCOIS PAULETTE, affirmed:THE WITNESS: My name is Francois

Paullette. I am a Dene of the Chipewyan tribe, which ispart of the Dene nation in the Northwest Territories.


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Mr. Berger, I'd like to expressmy views, my opinions, my expression towards the MackenzieValley Pipeline hearings, and the economic development ingeneral in the Territories.

Mr. Berger, I would like toexpress a brief history on the turnover and therecession', of the Indian people from the past to todayin the Fort Smith area where I'm originally from.

I belong to a tribe of over 200Chipewyan. We were originally from Alberta, and hack inthe litter part of the '50's the Indian Affairs at thattime were referred to as Indian agents. They told thechief -- at that time my father was the chief -- and toldhim that one day we shall move you to Fort Smith, asettlement just north of the settlement I was living in.

At that time the Indian peoplelived very peacefully with the land, lived off the landtrapping, fishing and hunting. Each year as I grew up asa child I saw the trappers coming in from their huntinggrounds and along the river as they came, they put uptheir tents, their teepees, and those days were reallygood because of the peacefulness and the respect for theland, and there were just one white person who was theBay manager, and there were no police.

We were very proud people atthat time, and then the Indian agent came back infollowing years telling my father and the people, "We aregoing to move you to Fort Smith. We are going to buildyou new homes there. We are going to give you jobs, andwe are going to build you homes with water, sewer, so


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you can live a good life, white man's way of life."So my father took that in

regards that these things were going to happen, and overthree years the people moved to Smith. Yeah, they giveus homes -- no water, no sewer, the houses weren'tfinished, we had to start a new way of life which wasforeign and alien to the Indian way of life.

As those years went by afterthe move I seen my father, my people move back into the Icountry the first year the whole crew of them, back I tothe land, through the same route that they had to . gothrough in Alberta again. The following year not verymany people went, and it went on and on, where today noone goes back to the land. Today white man's society,his establishment, his system have corrupted the Indianpeople and raped them of their pride, and today they liveas people call them in ghettos and living in shacks,drinking with no pride or identity as an Indian. Todaythis is what's happening in the Territories.

They have stripped us of ourpride, our way of life, and tried to change us in thewhite system which as I said, is foreign, we cannot adaptto the white system, lack of education, but never theless this is the white man's way of exploiting the so-called explorer, and their aggression -- and theprogression of development in the Territories,

Years went by and I becamethe chief. I was young, and I looked hack into the pastand getting information and looking for why the white mandid that. Today they talk of building a dam before


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Fort Smith on the Slave River. This the white manplanned 10-20 years ahead, today they're talking ofbuilding a darn. They have conned the Indians andstripped them of their culture, tradition, and bring theminto a white man's way of life; and today I do not likethis, what is happening to the Indian people.

Today the white man and thegovernment build highways, and today people talk ofpipeline. If you think, very many people look - verymany white people they look, but very few see what theyhave done to the Indian.

I'll just give you anexample. Today it's happening in the Territories. Isthis the white man's pride of understanding in tryingto respect the Indian's way of life, thinking?Presently today and future pipeline, I am opposed tothe pipeline just for the mere fact that it'scorruption for the Dene. people. Today the Indianpeople are getting educated. Their knowledge of thewhite man's system, today there is the Dene people areclaiming land in the Territories that is rightfullyours which we are part of culturally, traditionally,and spiritually, and the government is still deprivingus of our rights. In July the Dene people declared aDene nation, and lots of white men see that as threatto their government. That is not a threat. We want tolive and let live as Indian people, and as Dene, andthey still don't see, that.

In the past when the white mancame here to this continent he saw the red man. The


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white man started taking their land. The red man foughtback, he fought fierce. They called the Indian savages,pagan; and today the Indian people are standing up andspeaking for their rights for which is rightfully theirs,their land, their way of life. In the newspapers, in themedia we are called and we are referred to as militants,and again the white man has ignored to see.

I was talking, I've travelledin the south and I've met a lot of elders, nativemedicine people, spiritual leaders, and they speak to mein their own way, and there is one particular person,he's a I spiritual leader, he talks of the white mancoming to this land and how they exploited and exploredand raped the Indian to extinction, and stripped them oftheir rights, and today the Indians are speaking forthemselves: and they don't want to get rid of the whiteman but he goes on to say, he says, "Today the only wayto get rid of a white man or halt them 'to get rid ofthem is to build a big rocket ship so they can go findsome other life and leave us alone."

But again the white man is likethe mountain. Re is here to stay, so we have to put upwith their system; but before we can do that we are goingto have to get into their system.

I am presently working for theTerritorial Government in the Department of EconomicDevelopment, and today, three weeks ago the TerritorialGovernment has deprived me of my rights. The philosophyof the Territorial Government is to encourage nativepeople to work within their system, and I, I am one of


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those people working in that system and as I said, theyhave deprived me of my rights. They said I waspolitically involved with the native organizations. I ampart of the native organizations, I'm a Dene, and Isupport the whole concept of what is happening today, andthey turn around and they shaft me because I'm workingfor the people.

To keep me away from my peopleand to keep me under surveillance and shut me up they'regoing to transfer me from out of this community away fromthe Dene people; and they gave me another option. "Youcan remove yourself from the organization." Again thegovernment has failed to keep up to what they're saying.There's a trail of broken treaties, lies, and today it'sstill going on. Is the white man in the government proudof their system, their establishment?

I resigned as the chief a yearago, because I couldn't handle it all the corruption, andI told myself at that time, to my friends that I won't getinvolved that politically; but when the government turnedaround and told me that, told me this a few weeks ago,that has inspired me, it has encouraged me more to be backin the political arena, to fight and speak as a Dene.

I would like to finish off bysaying that the land settlement, this land claim that theIndian people are striving for in the Territories, thatis a base for our economics, and a way of life for thefuture. Until that day that we are back and be part ofthat land, I do not like to see major developments asgas pipeline, oil pipelines to go ahead. In this way


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the Indian people can start with their land and how tocontrol that land, the economical way, culturally,traditionally, environmentally, socially; and as I said,we speak for our rights and we are called militants.

Today has been a good day for agood talk. Thank you very much.

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you,Mr. Paullette.

(WITNESS ASIDE)THE COMMISSIONER: I think we

might stop now for supper. You're certainly next, ma'am.Are you able to come back after supper? Would that be allright with you.

MRS. VILLENEUVE: It's not verylong.

THE COMMISSIONER: All right,well let's go ahead, maybe you could give us your nameand be sworn in then.

THERESA VILLENEUVE sworn:THE WITNESS: My name is Theresa

Villeneuve and I was born in Nahannie Butte, and as far asI remember, even so I was just a little kid, I remember weuse to travel in the mountains all winter long and dad wasa smart man, and lucky in hunting and trapping. At thattime we never see can meat like Prem or vegetable soup.We only live on dry meat, rabbits, wild chicken. Iremember we even stayed in Rabbitkettle, oh, maybe a fewweeks. I cannot show you on the map where we been


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but if we were travelling on the land I could show youwhere we went. Anyway just before spring I think inMarch, we start moving back to Nahanni Butte, and when weget back to Nahanni Butte my dad use to come to FortSimpson to sell his fur, that is the only time we getour supplies from the white people. Us young childrenwe use to travel with our parents. Dad use to take usaround on dog teams and in the summertime we never evencome to town because when we were in Nahanni Butte therewas somebody running a little store. Somebody by thename of Jack Lafleur, that's where we use to get oursupplies from.

But then in 1940 my dad tooksick and my brother-in-law, my mom and all of us kidstook him to town by Liard River, My dad then passed awayin St. Margaret Hospital, Then the mission sent us tothe Providence School, that's where I learned to read andwrite.

Two years later my father died,my morn passed away. So six to years of age I've been inschool at that time. At that time there was no formaleducation but I still learned a little.

Another thing, from 1965 peoplehere in Simpson were doing very good in their hunting andfishing trips. It was so nice to see people going up theriver -- to boats going up the river on fishing trips.That's on weekends, but then in 1968 since the LiquorStore and highway opened, the native people seemed tohave lost their interest in hunting and fishing.

I'm not talking about only other


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people, I'm also talking about myself. Anyway in 1968just a few Indian people had boats because most of theDene people sold their kickers and boats for booze.

Since 1968 things have beenhappening too fast, and people cannot put up with them,The Dene people are not involved in what things arehappening, They have never helped in planning for futuredevelopment, such as the Village Council, because Denedon't think like the white man. That's it.

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you,very much. After your statement has been translated,would you let us keep it so that it can he marked' s anexhibit and form a part of the record ?

A O.K.THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you

very much,(SUBMISSION BY THERESA VILLENEUVE MARKED EXHIBIT C-194)

(WITNESS ASIDE)THE COMMISSIONER: We've had a

very worthwhile afternoon, and I think that everybodywould like to have something to eat, so we'll stop nowand come back at eight o'clock tonight. I invite you allto come back then and we'll hear from the others who wishto speak.(PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO 8 P.M.)(PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, ladiesand gentlemen, we'll call the hearing to order thisevening, to give those who wish to speak an opportunity


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to do so.PHOEBE NAHANNI resumed:THE COMMISSIONER: I should saythat Phoebe Nahanni was sworn

at the hearing at Nahanni Butte so she doesn't have to besworn again.

THE WITNESS: First of all Iwould like to make a verbal presentation and thenafterwards explain the map which is behind you. O.K.?

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, that's O.K.THE WITNESS: I would like to

begin with a statement of support to the Chief and BandCouncillors as leaders of the Fort Simpson Band. I'm amember of this Band , This Band is one of the foundationof the Dene nation, It is also one of the foundation ofthe Indian Brotherhood of the Northwest Territories, andI am employed by this organization.

THE COMMISSIONER: Excuse me aminute. I can hear what is being said, notwithstandingthe children playing outside. Do you want to --

PROF. JACKSON: Shut them up?THE COMMISSIONER: Well do

whatever it is that might --THE WITNESS: As Chief Jim

Antoine said we may not have a chance to speak our mindlike this again, so I would like to inject a bit of myexperiences in this so-called progress. When I was born,my parents were living in Jean Marie Community. Then mymother passed away and my sister and I were sent to aConvent School in Fort Providence. I was four years old


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at the time, I was with a group of girls from down theMackenzie River, We were indoctrinated with the RomanCatholic religion and it left a deep scar in my thinkingfor a long, long time. I spent six years, six winterswith only two months of the year it Simpson with my dadand my relatives. During these six years I remember,some of the nuns for what they did and what they said tous. One of their sayings was that those people,referring to the Dene in Providence like me , outside theconvent fence were poor people, and that we wouldn't wantto be like them. I wondered about that for a long, longtime.

Then I went to other schools inI Fort Smith and in Yellowknife, where there were manywhite people. In Yellowknife I met many students fromdown the river as well, and these years were fun, butthere were also many serious moments. I rebelled againstwhat I called at the time autocratic condescendingsupervision It was stifling. This realization has sinceleft me with a very dim view of education. Some girlsthey might have had their own reasons, I remember some ofthem ran away just so they could be sent home. I wasgoing to fight it out.

Now I look back only to analyzeall that I've experienced, and I can see a continuity inthis conspiracy, as I call it, to destroy us Dene, todestroy what we do and what we believe, our values. Tome the monla education system in more than one way is adead-end street. It creates dependency, it isunscrupulous, particularly when it comes in the form of


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competition. I had to experience an internal revolutionto take myself out of it, if you know what I mean, toexamine it from a distance.

My involvement in the movementbegan about ten years ago when I had more energy and I twas restless with ignorant monla. The way someindividuals spoke to us yesterday made me cringe. Theuse of phrases such as "alcohol culture, idleness, andthe punctuality, moping over brew, little employment" arenegative, superficial, and quickly drawn conclusions.That kind of talk sets back mutual understanding between,Dene and monla by ten years. Ugly remarks like this hasdriven many creative people away from Fort Simpson.

But the time has come andnahin, us Dene know it is time to speak because the so-called progress and proposed developments have gone toofar for some of us Dene to understand and to tolerate.

We have to put a stop to thisdestruction of our people. The monla thinking is asinking ship, it is a paper ship, it may be colorful andelaborate, but it is only paper like their money.

The monla education has been afailure in preparing students for responsibility and realpositive economic political change.

The monla technology hasdemonstrated its absolute disregard for values, personal,social, and natural.

The monla economics ismotivated by profit at the expense of the consumer. InSimpson half the population of consumers are Dene.


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We can and we have shown thatwe can play along with the monla ways in his politics andhis economic. But for many of us it has gone too far,particularly on the very subject of a proposed MackenzieValley Pipeline, If the pipeline is constructed, it willbe to the destruction of the Dene ways, the values, theculture. It is unrealistic to think that our culturewill survive after we have seen and have heard what theAlaskan natives are experiencing. There is no way I canreconcile a pipeline development to determine my futureactivities, nor my children's.

I agree that land claims mustbe settled and I agree with some of those who have saidyesterday that there must be lead time. A lot of peoplewould like to know what constitutes a land settlement.

In this hearing it is notwithin this hearing to say what will constitute a landsettlement because that is still being worked out.

In regards to the pipelineagain, I have heard notable people say that Canadian gasis not needed now. There is no need for delta gas andthere is no proof of sufficient reserve of gas. The bestoffer to Canadian consumers was made in August by theAlberta Government which agreed to make its reservesavailable, leaving us off the hook for ten years. If thepipeline goes ahead it will not -- it willingly go aheadfor the satisfaction of Americans at the expense of theCanadian people, and certainly the people in theNorthwest Territories; and this to me will be criminal.That's my submission.


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THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.I wonder if we could have that written statement afterits been translated.(SUBMISSION BY PHOEBE NAHANNI MARKED EXHIBIT C-195)

THE WITNESS: The map yousee on the wall there is one of the sets of maps thatrepresents five trappers. It is very incomplete.The interviewing conditions in Simpson was such thatit was very difficult to interview anyone extensivelybecause the trappers were either not here or theywere here and they had just left. There was a lot ofproblems.

But so far we have a total of20 incomplete interviews. There was, from what the fieldworkers have estimated, about 90 trappers, those whotrap, who used to trap, those who trap now in Simpson andJean Marie. This map shows the trapline routes and thetravel routes -- it doesn't show all the trapline routes'but it shows the main travelling routes either by dogteam, by plane, or car, vehicle, skidoo. It isincomplete insofar as it also doesn't show the permanentand the temporary camps, and also the fur-bearing animalsthat were trapped, the fish lakes, and the large mammalsthat were hunted. It doesn't show the seasons when theseroutes were used, and I would like to present a morecomplete map later on in the hearing. I'm not sure when,but it will be done.

Q All right. I take it thisis Simpson and Jean Marie, is it?

A Yes, that's correct.


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I could point out the major land marks.Q Go ahead.A This is where Nahanni Butte

is situated. Those who live here know where the placesare. For those who don't live here, Trout Lake Communityis situated here. Fort Liard, Nahanni Butte, Fisherman'sLake, Sibbesta Lake, Antoine Lake, Simpson, and furtherup there is Wrigley, way up there, the little black dotat the top. This is Jean Marie. Mills Lake and thenProvidence is further up the mouth of the Great Slave,and the Horn Mountain or the Horn Plateau -- that area isknown to have a lot of fur-bearing animals, Bolmer Lake,the big lake that's right up there. and Little Doctor,Cli Lake. This is the South Nahanni River, and thetrappers, the travel routes of the trappers from TroutLake and Liard overlap in this area, and it overlaps withthe Simpson in this area, overlaps the Trout Laketrappers' routes overlaps with the people from Kakisa.Over there the Dene from Rae, Lac LeMarte and Rae lakesgo in this area. The Dene from Wrigley go on both sidesof the river. The Dene from Franklin go pretty farsouth. That's Keller Lake way on top of there, and theirarea overlaps with the Dogrib nation as well.

Does that give enoughinformation?

THE COMMISSIONER: That's fine.What can you do with that, Mr. Interpreter?

MR. BONNETROUGE: Could you tryand explain a little bit?(WITNESS INTERPRETS IN NATIVE LANGUAGE)


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(WITNESS ASIDE)BETTY MENICOCHE resumed:THE WITNESS: Mr. Berger, I'm

Betty Menicoche. I'm also of the Fort Simpson Bands I'llbegin with my strong support and belief in the land claimsettlement before a pipeline.

Mr. Berger, we are regardingthe pipeline application with as much importance as ourforefathers did at the signing of the peace treaty in1921, Dene people who witnessed that event relate thatour people signed the treaty on the agreement that thetreaty will be good as long as the sun rises in the eastand goes down in the west; and as long as the MackenzieRiver flows south to north.

As an analogy, the MackenzieRiver will reverse its flow once this pipe is laid andgas and oil begins flowing south. Then the treaty of1921 will no longer be valid. That's in my eyes.

Therefore your Inquiry into theMackenzie Valley Pipeline applications should he of equalimportance as the 1921 treaty.

I have learned through years ofeducation that Canada has a democratic system -- has ademocratic government, that democracy is government forthe people, by the people, and for all the people. Alsothat we all have a freedom of speech. But by experienceI learned that democracy is really government by and forthe rich and selected few, with the excuse of it beingfor all the people. Is this theory of democracy reallypracticed?


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All we ask for is a share ofthis democratic system through control over our lives andland through what we call the Dene nation concept.

It is with the intellectualskills we have acquired through our years of educationthat have helped us voice our opinions and experiencesin; view of the pipeline.

At this point in time we arenot prepared to handle any large construction event. Weare not saying we don't want to be involved in aneconomic base or development.

Fort Simpson has beenfrequently used by other communities as an example ofwhat they don't want to become.

That statement always puzzled me.After closely reviewing my past life and experience to dateI now understand what they really mean by this, because Ihave been raised here and will probably die here.

We now have social and economicproblems that are the direct results of the changes froma traditional and cultural way of life to one of aneconomic base of life.

The transition into a newlifestyle, new types of housing, a foreign method ofeducation, and a different government system caused thevery breakdown of the Dene people in fort Simpson. To easethe breakdown, heavy drinking and alcohol abuse has becomea part of life in Simpson. Breakdown of the traditionalfamily unit -- once that occurred there was an increasein juvenile delinquency, social and moral degradation


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of all our people -- from the drinking abuse of childrenas young as to adults receiving Old Age Pension, increasein child welfare. Finally there was a time when ourpeople, when they had no interest in their own survivalthrough controlling themselves.

Mr. Berger, that was only ashort time ago, about at least within the last fiveyears, about five years ago. It is through a restorationof our Chief and Band Council that we have been to ableto isolate our problems, and are just beginning to take astand for our rights.

Judge Berger, I am now going totell you a personal story of a once proud Dene familythat survived and experienced the changes of Fort Simpsonfor years, until five years ago.

I am using my own personalstory as an example of what other people in othercommunities mean when they say, "We don't want to becomeq another Fort Simpson."

It begins with my parents whowere both raised in the traditional way of life, and Ischooled in the ways of the land, and with very minimaleducation, After some time on the land they moved andsettled in Simpson with life based on earning a wage. Myfather built our home first by himself, then fed andclothed the family through working. He also supp1ementedour food through hunting, fishing and trapping when therewas no work in Simpson.

I recall my mother doing houseo chores and sewing handicrafts for white residents to


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supplement my father's minimal earnings, and it wasbeginning to be hard to survive in the town.

Yes, there were times when wedid receive rations, as welfare was called then, from theIndian agents.

I recall going to day schoolwhile other friends and relatives went away to conventsfor schooling in Providence.

By 1963, after the flood inFort Simpson, and the relocation of Indian people fromthe flats to the site now where the people are living at,life had become harder. So my parents decided to go backto the old way of life, a life of trapping, hunting. Myparents did that from 1963 to '70, a total of sevenyears.

They went in early Septemberand came out two times for Christmas and Easter, andreturned to town in June. These were the only times mybrothers and sisters saw my parents. The sad part ofthis seven years' experience is that the main theme wasmoney, to make money to survive in the Town of Simpsonfrom June to September. The other price to pay was thebreakup of a home, because all during those years sixchildren of seven children of our family were raised inhostels and attended school for seven years, with onlysummer months left with your parents, to understand yourparents, to get to know the ways of your parents.

Seven summer vacations withparents that never found time for their children becausethey were again too busy earning a wage economy to


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survive I the summer and make enough money to buy thewinter's trapping supplies.

Mr. Berger, I am not knockingthe education system, as I realize we benefitted and itis now useful to our very existence today. The point isthat this transition caused a strain on family units.There were countless other native families thatexperienced a similar experience.

By the time I completed HighSchool in 1967 I wanted to go out with my parents inthe bush , but was told it was a hard way of life. Mydesire then was to learn, but again wasn't given theopportunity, as one did listen to parents' decision then.However, my parents did instill a love for the land andriver through frequent weekend trips up the Mackenzie andfishing and berry picking.

By 1970 things in Simpson hadreached a point of social disorder and ultimately abreakdown in a cultural value system. The scene inSimpson for natives was one of excitement, and one waythey began enjoying this fun was through alcohol, and abeginning misuse through misunderstanding. I knowbecause I myself experienced it, and it tookapproximately five years to overcome these badexperiences. It has been since 1970 that I found thebreakdown -- it was since 1970 that I found the breakdownof our family as the result of alcohol, stress and straincreated by this need to achieve through an economic base,a wage economy.

Judge Berger, it was


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at this time that my family experienced this biggestsocial disaster. Some of my brothers and sisters havenot quite overcome the experience today, and that was theultimate breakdown of my mother, she who kept our familygoing despite the thin threads of the family.

The strain of trying to tie twoways of life into one another was too much to bear, andthe medical cry for help by my mother fell on deaf earsbecause no one else could hear her, as they, too, werecaught right in the middle of the breakdown. All thefrustrations and the difficulty of coping with this 1:1transition is easily remedied by the bottle. That wasthe final breakdown of a once solid family. When mothercould no longer cope, she turned to alcohol, but to anexcess. As a result she took her frustration out onpeople here in town -- took her frustrations out, andpeople here in town labelled her crazy. But my motheris not crazy when she did all those things then fiveyears ago. She realized what was happening to the Denepeople.

When I look at her experiencesand at what I now know and experience through theBrotherhood movement, and our Chief and Band Council,I realize this women experience the very things thatthe native people through native organizations nowhave to deal with, and this is the housing situation andthe inadequacies of it. The moral and social degradationof our people, young and old, only accelerated more bythe use and abuse of alcohol, the strain towards alife-style based on the wage economy when so few are


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qualified for jobs and wage-earning. All this furtherall this is further ridiculed by the backlash ofmisunderstanding of the few white citizens.

We have been accused of beingyoung radical Indians, only repeating what leftwingpeople -- only repeating ideas of left-wing people.These are just a few examples of what has occurred inSimpson. Further social and economic injustices will beexperienced if the pipeline goes through.

Tell me, is it wrong to beginstanding on two feet and vocalizing what you yourself andyour people have truly experienced? Is that not ademocratic system of doing things? Is it wrong to notwant the pipeline because you understand and look at thisenormous project through two views -that as a Deneconcerned for the land, and for the people, and as awhite through an intellectual wisdom?

That's all I have to say.THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you

very much. Could we have your written statement so itcan be marked as an exhibit, please?(SUBMISSION BY BETTY MENICOCHE MARKED EXHIBIT C-196)

(WITNESS ASIDE)

GERALD ANTOINE sworn:THE WITNESS: Mr. Berger,

fellow residents and visitors, I am Gerald Antoine, oneof two fortunate natives from the Northwest Territoriesto attend one of the three United World Colleges, theLester B. Pearson College of the Pacific.


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This college is located 20miles west of Victoria on Vancouver Island, Besides thetwo of us, there are students from 35 differentcountries. attending also. Last year there were 100students enrolled, and this year they're hoping to be 100students.

The concept of the college isnot to think only of oneself, but of others; to shareone's abilities and wisdoms in order to depend upon oneanother. We have to understand each other's abilities andalso our own weaknesses. We have to consider that theother person also talks, breathes, etc., and accept him orher as a human being, not to be called in a vulgarlanguage, because each of us is a part of the whole world.

The first day when the studentswere together we were all friends; but I predict that ifwe do not cure our defects, we are going to graduate asgroups of friends from the college, and not as the wholegroup as planned, stepping in the world ready to bringpeace and unity to all. This concept that is beingtaught by the college is a concept that is known to theDene people.

Before the invasion of ourEuropean neighbors, we, the Dene, lived in harmony withour surroundings, trust everything, happy and contentedwe were sharing everything, distributing the meat fromthe hunting, in fact we still do. We were neither richnor poor, prejudiced nor ignorant. We gave each otherfreedom, which gives equality. Therefore we were notthen striving for high ideals.


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Then came the invasion withskin of paler color than ours, bringing the many diseasesthat destroyed lot of Dene people, In my native languagewe called the people with the disease "melah", As timewent on it gradually changed to the word "monla", nowused as the name of all white men. It seems that we areit seems that they are destroying what they really don'tknow, even themself. So I must assume that they don'tknow themself.

They say that they do, but dothey really? They destroy not only themselves but thethings around them.

I think this question should bedirected to the companies. Is there already the lack ofgas and oil in Canada, enough to give blood for it? Ifnot, then please consider the lives of the Dene and Inuitpeople that are already in this disastrous situation, theexposure to another culture or society.

Since you already have a notionthat there is some indication of gas in the Arctic,continue on your surveying but please don't push us,there is time for everything. The time of the siphoningof the natural resources of the north has not come yet.Why? Because the people that are beside or along theroute towards it have problems that you do not consideryour responsibility or your wrong-doings. We, the peopleare confused. Is that why you figure to push thepipeline down our throats?

As I have said before, there'sa time for everything, it is time the southerners, the


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business men, the companies to hear the voice of the Denepeople, You may have destroyed smaller aboriginal nationsbut now I think that you have bitten more than you canchew. I have a lot of questions in mind and I would liketo share them with you people, so please for your owngood think it over. I repeat again, for your own goodthink it over.

Will you people ever putconcern for your neighbor ahead of your selfish desires?Can we stop looking to government, schools and otherorganizations to create a better life and begin withourself? Can we practice kindness first to one person,and then two, and then three, then four and so on? Canyou put ideas and thoughts and love ahead of materialgain? Is there anything more important than living inharmony with people, nature, and your God? Do we taketime to truly care about each person we meet?

In present society, can we keepa hand on the hammer and the sythe, plow and the spinningwheel? ,As a native of this land, I respect you due tothe fact of your background, as a lawyer and a judge. Ithank you for coming and being the one to hear ouropinions and views. Thank you. Mussi.

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you,Mr. Antoine. May I have your written statement, please,so that it can be marked as an exhibit? Thank you, Mr.Antoine.(SUBMISSION BY GERALD ANTOINE MARKED EXHIBIT C-197)

(WITNESS ASIDE)


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LEO NORWEGIAN resumed:THE WITNESS: Mr. Berger, I

thank you for being present with us tonight. All thepeople that gave you their view, I got different feeling.In some way somehow we've got to get along with eachother, between the white and native. We must understand,some way we have to meet each other. We only have onecountry. I, Leo Norwegian, of Fort Simpson, I'll say andI'll repeat my word again, how come we don't get along?There must be a way. We got to find a way of doing it.We are only one Canadian who must meet each other, but Ihear the word time after time, they say, "Native,""Metis", and "white", Where are we going to go? We've gotto get along. Maybe I'm going to make a lot of badfriend tonight, but that's the way of my views.

We got to meet each other, wegot to work together with our government. I repeat mywords again once more, between the pipeline people andnative, we're discriminating each other. We shouldn't dothat. We should get along and do away -- you know, we'renative, we should know that where our country should beharmed and pipeline people should get along with us, andour government, the land settlement, I repeat that oncemore, why? They owe us money. They stole our land. Wegot to settle that first, and then pipeline people and I-- by "I" I say Indian -- we be happy and O.K., pipelinepeople, you make us a deal. O.K., Indian make a deal,O.K., I think we be very happy.

Another thing. Discriminatedabout white man bring liquor into our country; it's up


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to us, if we want to drink we'll drink; if we want tokill ourselves, O.K. But we must know how much we take,how we do it, and develop a people -- they know how touse their liquor, we could do that, too. Not me, I'dprobably kill myself; but in the future, kids, we got tolearn how to use our liquor and a lot of people figure,"Well, O.K., white man bring the liquor here and allIndians want to die." It's not that. We got to learn howto live with civilization.

White people, they're not goingto go back where they come from. We got to learn how tolive together. Where are we going to go? We're not goingto go back in the bush. We've got to live off the land,live like white man or -- all the way.

My friend here, he want to goback in the bush. He wants to learn kids how to live inthe bush. That's what we plan on doing, and what I heardfrom the kids, my chief and all these people in theaudience, maybe they disagree with me but we got to learnhow to live with one another.

The pipeline people, they want toput a pipeline in. Sure, no problem. But us Indian, wewant our lands settled now, not tomorrow. Now, nottomorrow, and then we'll talk to the pipeline people, sure,after that Mr. White Man, you want to put your pipelinesure, we'll come and shake hands with you.That's the way my feeling. I don't know about all thesepeople behind me, but that's the way it should be. There'sonly one way. Pipeline people, they want to put thepipeline ahead, southern people they want the pipeline,


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they want some gas, but what we want, we want our landsettled first. Government stole our land, eh? We want toget paid for it, not tomorrow, now. The majority. ofpeople maybe they don't agree with me, but that's the waymy own feeling. Pipeline people over here, me over here,and government right in the middle. Something is stoppingus to make agreement. I want they make agreement. Irepeat my word again, if I owe him $2., I'll pay him; butwe think if government stole our land, we want to get paidfor it first. We want to get paid first before we make adeal with these people like him. I know he got a lot ofmoney to go south, but -- right? I'm a bad man, you know,right?

But me, I want to get paidfirst. How's that, before you come across my land.Supposing now you got a piece of land, eh, I'm notletting nobody go put a road through it, eh? I think it'smy land, even I don't use it, because it belong to me,eh? I'm not going to let him walk across my propertyand put a road through, eh? That's the way we feel. I'mnot treaty, I'm native. But I speak for every Indian inthe Northwest Territories. I don't want to break yourheart, and I don't want to break his heart either.That's about all I can say.

Good night.THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you

very much, Mr. Norwegian.I think you can summarize that.(INTERPRETER COMPLIES)(WITNESS ASIDE)


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CHARLIE CHOLO, sworn:THE COMMISSIONER: Could you

give us the witness' name to begin with?THE INTERPRETER: Charlie

Cholo, C-H-O-L-O.He says I've been around when

the first treaties were signed and given out in 1921, andever since that date I have taken note of everything thathas happened, and is happening, even at the proceedingstoday and yesterday. I was born here at Fort Simpson andthis is my home, this is my native home.

To this day I have noticed thatpromises have not been followed. Nobody keeps their wordany more. Where do we go from here? Mistrust has beenbrought in by the white man, and repeating, nobody keepstheir word any more.

THE WITNESS: I'm not afraid totalk to anybody in this town, in this house here.There's a lot of things that they've been doing, theydon't keep their promise and that's what I hate, andthat's all I've got to say.

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank youvery much , Mr. Cholo.

Do you want to translate thelast few sentences into Slavey?(INTERPRETER COMPLIES) (WITNESS ASIDE)

THE COMMISSIONER: Just wait amoment, Miss.

LORAYNE MENICOCHE, sworn:THE WITNESS: Miss Lorayne


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Menicoche and I'm from Fort Simpson. I just wanted tosay a few things here.

When I was taught in schoolthat all people were equal in this democratic society,but when I left school I realized that the Dene peopleweren't really all equal with the white people. Ifound out that they were poorer and things like this,but then I didn't realize it then. I got into a circlewhere I went drinking every night, going on parties,and things like this; but just recently that's when Istarted getting involved in what was happening to mypeople.

Before, all I cared for wasabout the fun part and not what was happening to mypeople; but then I started opening my eyes and lookingaround me, and finding out the conditions about what mypeople are in. I really realized how poor my peoplewere, and there were no doors of opportunity open tothem, even though the white people say they are open. Iknow it isn't because we all know that.

Then the white people came uphere and they are always talking for the people, as ifthe 91 people themselves told them what to say.

What they said was their ownidea even if the people wanted something different.

I wanted to say something aboutwhat I have written here.

A little over five years agothe government set up a Village Council in Fort Simpson.The positions were filled by the white transients who


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have been here for about two or three years. They havesaid that the Village Council represents all the peopleof Fort Simpson, but the way I see it, the VillageCouncil is for the white people and. the Band Council isthe representative of the Dene people. At differentpublic meetings the white people are always jumping upand saying that the Village Council is the representativeof all the people. They say this, but this is not whatthe Dene think. The Village Council is for the whitepeople who have moved here for just a little while. InFort Simpson there are all these committees which haveall the same people from that one little group on thecommittees, they are on these committees to help oneanother and yet they say that they would help a Denestart up a business, which we all know is bullshit.

When a Dene wants to set up abusiness, the government always steps in like theparental figure that they have always been, and thereforein the long run the business doesn't get anywhere. TheVillage Council has people in positions who want to getthemselves all set up in businesses, therefore they allhelp one another with money and getting land to starttheir businesses on.

There has been very hard timesfor the Dene ever since the white man came here. When wefinally speak up about the things that have happened tous, they call us militant. We have never publicized whathas been happening to us, but over the past few years wefinally are speaking up and they don't like the truthbeing exposed, so they try their best to cut us down.


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They want to remain the parental figure that they havealways been ever since they moved here, and took over ourland. But now we have finally spoken up and we want tostart on our own, but they will not let us go. They keepimposing their values on us. I am not trying to say thatsome of it hasn't rubbed off on us.

The white people who have comeup here and consider themselves superiors over the Denepeople are nobody in the white society down southprobably the social rejects. They come up here and Ifigure that they could rule over us and make decisions onour lives. On top of everything else, they call usdrunks and alcoholics. We may be heavy drinkers, butthey are the alcoholics. They can't and won't face thetruth, and it is a lot easier for them to take out theirfrustrations on the Dene people. The people are verypoor in Simpson, they have poor jobs, poor housingwithout running water and other facilities that the whitepeople have in their homes. Also we are not being paidfor living in the north. If the pipeline is built, whatis going to happen to us? We will be worse off than weare now, What I am saying is, what is the Dene peoplegoing to benefit from this pipeline? We will get nothingfrom it. It will be the government and will be given thescraps as we have always been getting. The welfare,which everyone knows about, to me welfare is just a smallpayment back to the Dene for the resources which theyhave taken from our land -- the gold, oil, and otherminerals.

The Dene are here permanently,


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and the white man, if they fail they could easily go backto where they come from; but us, we are going to livewith the destruction and the ruins.

That's all I have to say.THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you

very much. May we have the written statement that youmade, Miss Menicoche, and have it marked as an exhibit?(SUBMISSION BY MISS LORAYNE MENICOCHE MARKEDEXHIBIT C-l98)

(WITNESS ASIDE)MR. LAMOTHE: I was sworn in

yesterday.RENE LAMOTHE resumed:THE WITNESS: Yesterday was --

I've been fidgeting with this all day long -- yesterdaywas in many ways a reaction and an attempt to establishan alternative view to many ideas that were madeyesterday. I assumed that probably that kind of asituation would exist again today.

Today I would like to attemptto make a positive active rather than reactionarystatement, a statement that grows from the mind ofmyself.

While I'm speaking in thecourse of this speech, in the course of the presentationI will identify a little hit of my background to help youunderstand the things that I will say further on in thespeech.

Yesterday I touched on thediscipline and psyche of the people. Today I would like


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elaborate a little on how this reality comes about.If you would draw a chart in

your mind, and across the top put the words:"Industrial, Athapaskan, and Cree,"

and down the side of the chart put the words:"Economic, political, social and cultural "

THE COMMISSIONER: Would youmind just repeating that? I'll do it in my mind but youhave to give me another chance.

A O.K., well I'm going to gothrough it again and I'll elaborate it as I go through.

Q O.K.A O.K., you have -- what I'm

trying to do is place in a chart form, to juxtapose, toset side by side and to attempt to demonstrate to acertain extent the differences and the similaritiesbetween the economy, the politics, the society, and themind expressions of three basic ways of life, and thecomparative way to help to understand, to see a betterpicture of really what kind of things contribute towardsmaking the people live the way they do, think the waythey do, and these kind of things.

So basically in that chart theindustrial economy is based on the idea of extracting rawmaterials, producing something from those raw materials,trading, selling this product, and consuming. The basic politic of the industrial societyis the industrial state, the industrial family, citystate and regionalism, according to economics. In otherwords, politics is directly related to the economy.


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The society of the industrialcommunity is based primarily on peer groups whichexpress themselves in the form of clubs, and the mindexpression of the industrial society is individual in avery new society with much confusion.

The industrial society is very,very new in terms of human development in the world, itis so new that it hasn't yet developed its own set ofnorms; it is working from agrarian norms, it is workingfrom medieval norms, it is working from norms that are inthe background of the peoples who have moved into theindustrial society, whether they be Japanese or French orGerman or British; and in part and to a great extent thenorms of those peoples' backgrounds, when they were inthe feudal systems and the agricultural systems and inthe tribal systems, don't fit into the industrialeconomy, don't fit into the industrial world. and in partit's that reality that causes a lot of the gaps, a lot ofthe confusion, a lot of the frustrations within theindustrial world itself.

Maybe if we shut the windowsit would warm up a bit.

Q Oh, warm up a bit, yes.A To go on then, in a

traditional Cree economy, you lived basically on thehunt. The Cree way of life was developed before horseswere introduced into North America. The hunt wasbuffalo, primarily buffalo, but other game animals thatlived on the prairies, and what was hunted, what waskilled or caught was consumed. So again you have seek


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raw material, produce something from it and consume it,very similar to the industrial economy.

The politic of the Cree wastribal, and again the reason for this is economic. 51,Before horses came into North America, Cree people had towork together, they had to really learn how to structuretheir lives into large communities in order s to hunt thebuffalo. They would stampede them by foot, on foot theywould stampede a large herd of buffalo over a cliff andthat would produce enough food, hides for clothing andtents and that kind of thing to last them for the wholeyear.

Because and as a direct resultof that, the society of the Cree was based on a societyof need. In other words, there were societies formedaccording to the needs that had to be met and these needswere educational, they were initiation into adulthood,they re for council, they were for war, they were forpolicing within the community, policing outside thecommunity, all these things there were societies for eachand every one of these needs.

The mind expression of the Creefrom all of this was one of conformity. Very strict andconservative conformity to a structured and integraltribal life, to the extent the tribe took precedent overindividuals. The survival of the tribe took precedentover the survival of the individual.

In the Athapaskan society theeconomy is based on the hunt of moose and other animalsin forested areas. What is hunted is consumed, again


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produced from raw material and consumed . Again thepolitic of the Athapaskan and the social structure of theAthapaskan are directly related to the basic economy ofthe geography that the geography permitted. TheAthapaskan people are a woodland people, they live in thebush, and they lived off the animals that the bush wasable to provide, and the bush was able to provide animalsthat lived alone, like the moose. Very seldom thewoodland caribou is not as numerous as the barren landcaribou, is what I'm trying to say. The barren cariboualmost prevented the Dogrib people from forming intotribal communities -- not quite, but just about. Thewoodland caribou that the Athapaskan -- I'm talking nowspecifically about the Slavey, a distinction, the Dene aspronounced by the Slavey, and Dene as pronounce by theDogrib -- the Dene people lived politically in huntingfamilies. The family was extended, grandparents, auntsand uncles, niece and nephews, brothers, sisters,children. The whole social structure of the people, thesocial inter-action, the society of the people was alsofamily, it was the very same thing. The politicalinstitution and the social institution of the Athapaskanpeople traditionally was the family.

The mind expression of this washighly individualized, and when you live in closeproximity of contact with Athapaskan people you find thatthere are a lot of good characters, there's nothing blandabout them, they don't all fade into each other, verydistinct in characteristic. The individuality in thissociety, however, as opposed to the individuality in the


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industrial economy or society, the Athapaskanindividuality is attuned to an old, a very old andancient well established order. It has existed longenough to permit the people, in other words, to formulatetheir norms, to formulate their values, theirorientation, their interactions, all of these things, inall circumstances. There is no confusion. Each of theseways of life then has a mind prepared by that way oflife, and which prepares the young to survive in that wayof life.

It must be recognized, however;not to its discredit, but just as a fact of reality, afact of history, that the industrial way being theyoungest way of life, has the least experience.

Q Being the what?A The industrial --Q As being what?A The industrial way of life

being the youngest of the three types of lives, way oflife, it's just newly developing, it has the leastexperience. It hasn't experienced enough yet, in otherwords, in teaching its young how to cope with life, within its own system. It's system in fact isn't even yetcompletely developed.

The way that a peoplediscipline their children is one of the strongest forcesby which children learn the way of life of the people.Now some of these things I'm going to be getting intomight be disjointed to a certain extent, and to reallyget into that area I spent months on it with a class of


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about ill 45 students between the ages of and 55, allCree people living in an Athapaskan geographicalsituation, confronted with an industrial thing, and Ihave drawn from that that experience.

Q Well, take your time, I'dlike to listen to what you have to say. I don't knowwhat Mr. Bonnetrouge is going to do with all this whenyou're finished, and I understand the local radio stationis providing the whole village with a live broadcast ofwhat is being said here so we may take a coffee break,and let you, after Mr. Lamothe is finished, and let youdecide what you're going to how you're going to wrestlewith this. But carry on and take your time.

A Well, I've tried to bringthe major points to bear to outline -- to give you anoutline, at least, of some of the things that have tobe considered when you are dealing with peopleconfronted with alternative ways of life, and from thoseoutlines perhaps I could send you something in writinglater.

Q Carry on.A I'll just go as it is,

disjointed, then.Stemming directly from the way

of life is the wisdom that way of life, its experiences,often force on a people. What that implies is thatpeople don't change unless they're forced to. Theydon't learn an alternative way unless they're forcedto. The thing that forces people to learn a new way oflife is the experiences with survival, and you could


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carry that a little further and say perhaps a little moreexperience on the part of the industrial people, withtheir approach to life will force them to have to change.The centre of New York City is being used as a garbagedump. The Hudson River has almost stopped flowingbecause it's so stagnant. The Great Lakes, massivebodies of water, and many of them you can't drink thewater out of.

This wisdom has a way ofknowing and doing, living so as to survive. Within thiscode of wisdom, this philosophy of life the people adhereto values and it is in this area of human endeavor, theadherence or lack of adherence to values, in which wefind much cause of the frustration, the dilemmas, theanger, irrational and unreasonable outlets to an happarently impossible situation.

The ability or inability ofpeople to live as they know they should is directlyrelated to their self-image, self-motivation, and abilityto live with themselves and others. This is crucial, Abecause the hunting economy permitted a man to support anextended family; whereas the wage economy does notadequately support an immediate family within theexpectations that the industrial economy raises. Weshould 51, always be buying something else, buyingsomething new, don't watch T.V., it's bad for your soul.I'm hooked on it.

We have elders alive now whoin their youth supported up to 40 people, Etoli, anold man living in the hospital right now, in his youth


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supported up to 40 people by hunting. Who of us with oursalaries today can support ten?

Etoli is living in the hospitalhere because primarily the expectations of ourselves, hisrelatives, have been changed by education, the churches,the industrial economy; and secondly because the wageeconomy as we are into it, also because of expectations,it's because of expectations that we are hooked on thewage economy, does not generate enough cash to supportmore than one family as understood, nuclear family --father, mother, and children.

Nevertheless, young women areraised among the Dene people to expect specific benefitsfrom a husband. However, these benefits are found in ahunting economy, not in a wage-earning economy. Youngmen are raised to believe that to be a man one mustprovide these benefits, and again these benefits are notfound in the wage-earning economy.

The industrial economy cannotprovide the benefits, it is not geared to provide thebenefits. The benefits are self-image, esteem, self-esteem, esteem of others, respect, self-respect, respectof others. The capability to provide a standardcomparable to the rest of society, we are brought intothe world in our families with tools to handle a huntingsituation and we are forced by history and the situationas it exists to cope with a wage-earning economy. Ourminds are one place and we're hooked on something elsebecause of expectations.

In other words then, we are a


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people caught in an industrial economy with a mindprepared for a hunting economy. I've said that. Theexpectations women have of their men, the self-expectations of the men of the women not being realizedin everyday life results in frustrations, confusions,misunderstandings, and anger that net broken homes. Wehad a very moving example from Betty earlier this eveningof how this happens on a personal level.

The contacts of the young Denepeople raised to one psychological and philosophical wayof life, view of realities, with a way of life whichdemands a different discipline for survivals, thesecontacts are confusing, unsettling, they raise defensivemechanisms making it difficult to communicate ideas, andin many cases totally unacceptable to the manyindividuals who have a hard time to cope, and so we havedropouts from school and from life.

Mr. Berger, today you havewitnessed before you. Some Dene people who have perhaps,from your view, come through beautifully these confusingexperiences. Perhaps a more emphatic statement to you todemonstrate the reality of this situation I have Ioutlined here would be to take you through thecommunities of the north and introduce you to the many,many, many of us who haven't. Confront these youngpeople now with the elders who have not lost touch withwho they are, and the expectations these elders have inthe mind view of the-world and its realities to the Dene,remembering the place and role of the elders in thepeople's mind view of the world, remembering also the


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place and role the elders have and the beliefs of thepeople and you can see why we have many young peoplesuffering.

These realities exist as adirect result to the experiences in the immediate past.They are some of the causes of many symptoms like risinglevels of crime, broken homes, alcoholism, etc.

But these realities are notculture. Neither are the symptoms culture. At best theyare a ploughed field. The French expression generates abetter picture, laborieux; because laborieux hasconnotations of to be in labor, as to give birth. Theconfusion is like a ploughed field, it's like a fieldready to give birth. To carry this analogy then, cultureis the living process of cultivating the soil, the plant,and the flower. Right now we have some beautiful plantsand flowers, but they are out in the bush. You have toseek them out. Even seven years ago we had some here onthe island, but the industrial development plans in viewof the pipeline started coming in and the ExperimentalFarm is now a barren trailer court, even barren oftrailers.

It seems that torn land is themark of the industrial culture. What I am saying is thatconfusion, alcoholism, frustrations, gaps like generationgaps, economic gaps, social gaps, these are more thecultural product of the industrial world and not of thenative world.

The reason they are the productof the industrial world is because the industrial world


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is so young. It hasn't yet formulated its being. Anyman of the industrial world who is a man of integrity isa man of integrity primarily because he lives accordingto an agrarian value system.

The sociology of knowledge andthe sociology of music substantiate this. I'm not aprofessional in this area. I've studied it to a certainextent, but from what I have seen and from how I look atit, it is my impression that the music of rhythm,harmony, order and concord was created prior to theindustrial revolution. Or it was created early into theindustrial revolution by minds who were the product of anearlier age. In my opinion the predominant character ofthe industrial age music is dissonance. Music isbecoming identified now very strongly with the soulexpression of the people's culture. The people's cultureexpressed in its soul, and if the soul of the industrialworld is one of dissonance, then we can understand theconfusion in Fort Simpson.

It is not by accident, forexample, that the Fifth Movement of the SymphonyFantastic by Berlioz plays on dissonance, and is a take-off from the tract of the mass of the Dead, "Dies Irae"the days of wrath and sorrow.

Further, another piece ofmusic, In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida by the Iron butterfly, thoughfollowing movements similar to symphonies, isexistentialistic and identifies absurdity in the extreme.It's a negation of all that's beautiful and yet itfascinates like hypnotism from a snake.


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With this mind the industrialpeople have come. I don't mean to identify a lot ofpeople in Fort Simpson this way, a lot of non-nativepeople. There are many very good non-native people inFort Simpson, There are many very good people working forArctic Gas and Foothills too, I'm sure who are not awareof a lot of these things, who as Gerry said earlier,don't know what they're doing. Another Man said that2,000 years ago, too.

With a different mind, confusedperhaps, but closer to the roots of the past than are theindustrial people, the Dene are working here now throughthe Koe Go Cho Society to gather and strengthen theirlives, to face the future. The Koe Go Cho Society isadministering this building right now and we are working,some of the things we want to do I will briefly outline.I will quickly read to give you an idea.

What the total mind of thecommunity needs in mind, the Society sees the developmentof a Community Resource Centre servicing the educationalcultural and social needs of the native people asnecessary! to their development and growth into a placeof maturity, respect, and dignity in the north. Withthis more encompassing view of the development necessaryamong their people, the Koe Go Cho Society looksconstantly towards the development of strong integralfamilies. This overview has been uppermost in the mindsof the executive of the Society in the past years.

THE COMMISSIONER: I think, Mr.Lamothe, since you're beginning a discussion of the


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objects of the Society and we've been carrying on for acouple of hours, maybe you wouldn't mind if we take afive or ten-minute break, and then you can just carry onwhen we resume. If that's all right then we'll just --(PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)(PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, ladiesand gentlemen, we'll carry on now. Just before Mr.Lamothe begins again, I should say that I understandthere are a number of people who wish to speak tonight sowhat we will do is we will carry on tonight for some timeuntil we decide that we're too tired to continue, andthen we will, come back here at 9:30 tomorrow morning andcarry on till about noon, and that should give everyonewho wishes to speak a chance to do so, and then tomorrowafternoon I will, I think, be leaving for Wrigley. But Ithink in that way we should be able to hear everyone whowishes to speak and I hope that will be satisfactory.Maybe you'd just translate that before we carry on.

(INTERPRETER COMPLIES)

RENE LAMOTHE, resumed:THE WITNESS: I was just going

to go through very quickly and was told to slow down someof the things that the Society, the Koe Go Cho Societywishes to do here in Simpson.

Perhaps I should explain thatKoe Go Cho in Dene means "a large home". This is theinterpretation that the Chairman of the Board has givenme.


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I guess the reason I want to dothis, the reason I want to expose some of these things isto identify to you, Mr. Berger, and to the Government ofCanada that in spite of a lot of views, a lot ofopinions, the Dene people here are committed to a veryhealthy way of life, and are actively seeking the ways inwhich to ensure that this thing can continue, thathealthy way of life in a family context can continue. SoI'll begin again and I 'm not going through everythingthat we have verbalized, but I'll take out some keypoints to help you see these things.

So with the total imagine ofthe community's needs in mind, the Society sees thedevelopment of a Community Resource Centre servicing theeducational, cultural, and social needs of the nativepeople as necessary to their development and growth into,a place of maturity, respect and dignity in the north.With this more-encompassing view of the developmentnecessary among their people, Koe Go Cho looks constantlytowards the development of strong integral families, andthis overview has been uppermost in the minds of theexecutive of the Society in the past year.

With this overview still inmind, the Society looks towards a more complete serviceto its people so as to use the (1) strength of thetraditional family, the extended family, to build familiesof integrity to meet present demands; (2) to build strongfamilies to meet present demands by working towardscreating a more healthy social milieu, by providingyouth recreational services, alcohol rehabilitation


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services, specialized child care service for delinquentsand abandoned children, and information services; (3) alsoin the light of this overview of the community comes thearea of adult education recognized as a very I necessarypart in the overall development of the people.

With the foregoing in mind, theexecutive directors of the Koe Go Cho Society, inconsultation with the members of the Band Council andtheir Chiefs in Fort Simpson, Jean Marie River, FortWrigley, Fort Liard, Nahanni Butte, Trout Lake, themembers of the Society are hereby seeking funding tooperate the following programs: Student residence, we areoperating now; we have a budget for 48 children and wehave 54; an alcohol rehabilitation and preventativeservice; the approval for this proposal was given lastFriday here. We are seeking also adult education, specialchild care services, research centre, an ambulatory SeniorCitizens Home, and a Youth Recreation Friendship Centre.In many ways the Society administering this building rightnow is providing the service required as far as aFriendship Centre and a Youth Centre is concerned, becausethe building is open, the recreational facilitiesavailable to students in the residence are available tothe young people in the community and intransient peoplewho are having a hard time to find a place, if the hotelsare full or what have you -- often come here and find aplace to stay.

Within the complex are dailyopportunities for mutual contact among staff, seniorcitizens, those participating in programs and resident


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students, program inter-action and co-operation, theSociety is confident that this more complete approach tohuman development will be of benefit not only to thenative people --

Q Could you just slow down abit?

A Sorry. Within the complexwith daily opportunities for mutual contact among staff,senior citizens, those participating in programs andresident students, program inter-action and co-operation,the Society is confident that this more complete approachto human development will be of benefit to not only thenative people of the region, but to the community atlarge.

With the community at large inmind, the Society realizes that all people have needs tobe met, but wish to develop these programs as it isnative people in the majority who require these servicesThe Society does not look only at Fort Simpson butrepresents the communities that I outlined above.

One of the programs that we areseeking funding for, we call simply a Research Centre.I'll give you some of the rationale for a Research Centrethat we have formulated. This program will act as aResource Centre for adult education, co-curricularactivities, cultural inclusion for student residents,an Alcohol Rehabilitation Centre, it will be a resourceto all of these things. It will be a resource tospecial child care services, a resource to culturalactivities related to all programs, as well as for


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recreational and other leisure time activities.The Research Centre will

provide facilities for the production and packaging ofmaterials related to the native life in the north.Further, it will provide facilities within the complexfor meetings of groups interested in learning about thenative culture. Some areas of immediate concern aregathering, coding, indexing of materials, and thehistory, the culture, and present development of thepeople to be made available for study. This materialcould be obtained maintained in the Community Library,which will also be housed in this building.

The project would attempt tocarry out a grass-roots research into specific andcurrent educational needs and interests of the nativepeople which will provide the basis for morecomprehensive and specific programs in the future. Theprogram would build up a library of books, magazines,audiovisual packages, audio packages, and it would helprecord music, language, legends and life experiences ofthe people in the land.

This Program Centre by theabove activities will help promote or foster culturalactivities, inter-cultural activities, communicationsamong people and between the people, meaning Dene andnon-Dene, a greater awareness in the non-native communityof the culture and the needs of the native people, a newsense of self-awareness and self-reliance among thenative people, and the use of moral reinforcementfound in the extended family to reinforce motives for


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advancement of all active in the operation of the centre.I should add that paralleling

this Research Centre and in co-operation with an AdultEducation centre we would like to set up an InformationCentre which would provide these types of informationabout the industrial and the government and the non-Deneway of life to the Dene, and in this way it would alsocreate a greater sense of awareness in the nativecommunity of the non-native way. Hopefully, therefore,by information bridging gaps, helping people tounderstand each other.

One of the crucial parts ofrealizing these objectives is the necessity of having oldpeople live in this centre with the young people.

Q Is that going on now?A This is going on now.

Another part of the program would be an ambulatory SeniorCitizens' Home, and one of the functions of the SeniorCitizens' Home or perhaps the function that is mostimportant to the growth of the people as a whole is theSenior Citizens' Home. We don't look at Senior Citizens'Home as they are looked at in the south or by theindustrial economy. I'll just briefly read this.

The reason for having seniorcitizens here is a service to them, of course. If theychoose to come there would be no charge to them. Wewould ask them to come as leaders of the people, aspeople who have the knowledge of the ways of life of thepeople to teach to the young here. They would come notas people who have no further productive reality in the


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existence of the people, but as the crucial element, theage which passes on the life to the young. One of theperspectives of life that is lacking in the industrialeconomy which is a very real thing in the Indian movementor in the Indian world is the fact that we are born everyday, and that every little bit of information that welearn is a birth. As we learn the way of life from theold, as we get older we understand different things, wehear a legend, we hear it again, we hear it again, wehear it again and every time at a given age this legendtakes on new meaning.

So the senior citizens by-their presence, their knowledge of the past, oflanguage, of songs and dances, of the legends, thematerial aspects of their culture such as the buildingof canoes, snowshoes, this kind of thing, will be veryinstrumental in creating the spirit, the atmosphere inwhich a culture thrives. The senior citizens will bepresent to give moral support to the adults in alcoholrehabilitation. They will be present to assist theresearch and information crew to build a library ofnative folklore. Their presence in the educationalsystem as it is developing will make it possible forthem to take up their rightful and ancestral role asteachers of their people.

To go on then with thepresentation, as I would like to indicate the native cul-ture is not dead, and yet we are trapped. We are trappedby the past where people were forced into this system,and by the present, by the expectations that experience


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has raised. I don't know that it's necessary toelaborate on the idea that in the past children wereremoved from their families and sent to residentialschools and this kind of thing. You have in the memoirsof Bishop Gruard, a statement, just to paraphrase it, wehave lived among the native people for 75 years and wesee them once every two years, and we haven't got thepeople to send out in the land with them, so he andBishop Clute, Bishop Grandez, made a proposal to theFederal Government that residential schools be institutedand that the children be removed from their parents, theauthority of the child be placed in the residence.

Q Authority over the child?A Over the child, that the

service of the R.C.M.P, would be used to bring thechildren, if necessary, into the residence where thechild would be Christianized and taught an agriculturalway of life, would be made sedentary and economical andviable units in the structure of Canada. It's on thisbasis that the residential schools got started in WesternCanada. It's based with all good intention. These threebishops were all from France where the churches had setup since the Middle Ages orphanages because of the manywars in Europe, many kids were left orphan and thechurches took care of them. You know, that was thethinking and it grew from that, Socially it was adisaster.

Q When did the three bishopsmake that proposal to the Federal Government?

A That was in the late 1800's,


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He went on further and said that."It is estimated that within three generationsthe total native population will be Christian,agrarian, and viable economic units in thestructure of Canada."

These are his words paraphrased.Looking at that fact, 75 some

years down the road, the bishops of Northern Canada,both Anglican and Catholic, have come to the conclusionand looking at the presence of native people in theirchurches that the residential school was not a viablealternative to Christianize the people and that's whythey have -- one of the reasons, I think, have withdrawnfrom residential schools. There's only one left up inInuvik being administered by the Catholic Church.

Native people are not going tothe church. Many adhere to the Christian beliefs but itdidn't bring them into the churches.

So there are still peopleliving on the land, the culture is not dead. There arepeople who come and go, who work a while in the wageearning economy, who go out to the land for a while, whostay in town maybe a few years, will go out on the landfor a few months or for a year, and the industrialencroachment would seriously hinder continuation of thatlife.

As an example, the cut line, asimple cut line moving down from the Horn Plateau --

Q Seismic?A -- seismic line from the


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Horn Plateau to out towards the Mackenzie there nearRabbitskin, crosses the Rabbitskin, I think it's times,and every place that it crosses you know the Rabbitskintwists and turns and every place it crosses theRabbitskin the washout from: Spring runoff has taken thetopsoil away right down to bedrock, and maybe that'smeaningless to us but to the family that lives there andhunts there it meant on one occasion -- well, the firsttime that the man went. up that way after this washouthad happened, he planned to be gone for four days, to befor three of those days on the Horn Plateau, and it tookhim almost hours to get up to the Horn Plateau the firsttime, lie had to cut a new trail all the way from theMackenzie up to the Horn Plateau, because this washouthad washed out his trail 16 times.

The industrial encroachmentwould seriously hinder the continuation of that life.And they ask, "Will that life die, because a rose petalputs up very little resistance to a bulldozer."

Mr. Berger, you have heard theposition taken consistently by the native people alongthe Mackenzie Corridor, and you have heard today we aremuch of the same mind here. Some of the reasons why weare of the same mind is because we have had the sameexperiences. I'll give you an example.

A few years ago Imperial Oilwas looking for a site to set up their bulk plant here inSimpson, and this was when shipping to Simpson was byriver.

Q Pardon?


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A This was when shipping toSimpson was by river, so they wanted to have their bulkplant near the water where they could just fill theirstorage tanks from the barges. So there's an old coupledown the river here, their name is Lafferty, it's theuncle of Bill, and it's Mr. Lafferty who told me thisstory when I was on Village Council, he told it to me tosee if I could try and move the bulk plant. I brought itup once at the Village Council but with not too muchsuccess.

First a couple of tanks wentup, and the Laffertys said, "Well, that's what weexpected," you know, and that was all right. But nowthey can't see up-town for storage tanks, fuel tanks, andtheir fear is that if one of those tanks gets on fire,their house is so close to it it's going to burn.

When this situation happened inYellowknife, enough pressure was made by the Community ofYellowknife that the storage tanks were moved.Originally storage tanks were always beside the river orI beside the lake, as in the case in Yellowknife; butafter the highways came in, as they did in Yellowknife,they moved the storage tanks out onto the highway in anisolated spot where there is no residential area, andthis was basically the request that we made here too, andthe request was made by Mr. Lafferty. He told me anumber of times through different bulk agents anddifferent agents that worked for Imperial oil, and toVillage Council, and he says, "All I get is a shrug." Soagain it's the age-old story of the servant taking


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over the master's house.There is a situation that you

must be aware of. The communities in Canada are uniquein Northern Canada. I mean, They're not like thecommunities that grew from the agricultural or theindustrial complex in the south. They're unique in thisway, they're based on a service to native people. Togive you an example, again I'm under oath to speak thetruth so I'll tell you a story. I don't know if this istrue but it identifies a reality that does exist. Thereality of these communities exists in this way.

This one maybe exaggerates,accentuates the reality. There was a community a fewyears ago in the Central Arctic anyway, about 300 Eskimopeople, Inuit people who were totally self-sufficient,they were living on the land in the old traditional way,and social development in the Territorial Government wasbeing started at that time and they hired a couple ofpeople from the University of Alberta, and these peoplewent into that community, just out of university, oneweek orientation in Yellowknife, straight into CentralArctic, traditional Inuit community, and they werefloored. People living in skin tents in the summer inthe 20th century in Canada? It's unthinkable. So theywent back to Yellowknife and they really raised a storm,and they insisted on having housing, having schools, onhaving everything that goes with it.

So they went back in with abig team and they went in with housing and they broughtin the school, and D.P.W. went in to build the school,


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and D.P.W. people, and school people had to haverecreational facilities, so a recreational facility wentin. That meant a bar, and a Community Hall, and so --well, you've got to travel back and forth and so youneed some roads, and so you need some maintenance peoplefor the roads and you need a garage to maintain thevehicles, and so you need a store to maintain the peopleand so you've got this spin-off effect all based on theidea that we have to help these Indian people, theseInuit people. Pretty soon you've got a whole community,based on a completely artificial reality. These peoplewere taking care of themselves. Apparently the netresult, according to this story of this situation in theI Central Arctic was that in a period of 4 1/2 years, orfive; years, that community was moved from a completelyself-sufficient, strong community, a way of life thathad permitted them to survive for generations in thearea into a subservient community with about 90% of themon welfare, and alcoholic, apparently.

You have a similar situation onthe reverse of that coin happened in Good Hope lastwinter when the Chief told all his people, "Look, we'removing into the bush," and he told me when he was here atthe Dene assembly that they had about Civil Servants inFort Good Hope all winter who didn't know what they werethere for.

So we have a very strangesituation happening here economical1y. The economy ofthis land is based on its geography, and that geography


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on the surface is woodland, barren land, its game ani-mals, its fish, and in very few parts it is potentiallyagricultural. In the resource area, that economy mustalso produce for itself because as Civil Servants aredraining the treasury of untold tax dollars to serve acommunity that doesn't need their service, as the goldmines in Yellowknife have drained untold wealth with verylittle return benefit to it, as Pointed Mountain gasfields near Liard have drained with no taxes coming backto the Territories, as Pine Point has existed for I don'tknow how many years and only last year began paying in-come tax, a resource should exist to serve the people ofthe area primarily, as did the bush and the game and thefish serve the Dene for generations prior to the indus-trial world coming into here.

A drainage type economy,whether it's draining the treasury to finance CivilServants to provide a superficial service, or apipeline to drain a resource, a drainage type economycreates inflation. It does not create a viableproductive vigorous realistic human condition of life.

THE COMMISSIONER: Just beforewe move on -- have you finished, Mr. Lamothe?

A NoTHE COMMISSIONER: We will come

to you in a moment, sir.A So in the light of a lot

of these things a question is in order then: What wouldhappen? And I think the reality exists, the possibilityof it exists, should the inflationary and necessary


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moves that are happening in the world right now becomeoutright depression and the Territorial Governmentemployees get cut back to two or three, as they were onlyabout years ago, we have about 3,000 Territorialemployees right now; about years ago there were two. Wewonder what causes inflation.

O.K., I'm not born to the Denepeople. My grandfather was a young man in 1885, and hisolder brother was one of five Metis killed defendingBatoche. These men died at the hands of Canadiansoldiers because they wanted to be citizens at par withEastern Canadians. This can be substantiated. It's inthe Sessional Papers and in the Archives of many CanadianArchives. These people died so that Canada wouldrecognize their right to a piece of land from which tomake a living. At Batoche the people white, Metis andtreaty sent petitions twice a year for years to theCanadian Government to have title to their lands, just,you know, a quarter-section of land. All they wanted wastitle to it, and for years their petitions were ignored.Now some few years later, however, in parts of Canadasuch as Alberta, Canada has recognized that right. InAlberta there are Metis colonies, The administration ofMetis colonies is similar to the administration ofreserves, only the administration of the colony is donefrom the provincial rather than the Federal Governmentlevel.

But this recognition came onlyafter World War II when Canada had a strong peacekeepingforce, a railroad to move troops if necessary,


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agricultural sales. These realities were within thescope of Canada's plans from the time of Sir John A,Macdonald when he said, "The Indians and Metis of theNorthwest will be held down with a firm hand till thewest is over-run and controlled by white settlers, in aletter to a friend of his by the name of Rose, alsocontained in the Sessional Papers and the Archives.

Throughout this time and forgenerations before, the Metis had a love for the landthat gave them the strength to die for it. That's wherethey wanted to live, and they were going to e run off andthey said, "No, we're not going to run again."

Following generations,including my own, progressively lost this love to theextent that the Metis people as a people, when I wasgrowing up, were very bland. I am married now into afamily of the Dene people for close to five years. Inthose five years I have witnessed numerous examples ofthe love that the Dene have for this land. At first Ididn't understand, just as many non-Dene people heretoday did not understand Jim's stand on this issue:but as I came to know the people's ways, perceptionsof themselves and their land and to understand withinthat context, within their context, within their viewof the world, within their view of the land, as mycapacity to love grew for my wife and children Ibegan to acquire a capacity to love other things. Ibegan to understand these examples I have witnessedof the love of the Dene for the land. I know thatthis piece of information I'm giving you here right


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now must seem obtuse at best, hard to under-stand, perhaps, or perceive or see through. But it issomething that is very real, and it's in situationslike this, it's in these kind of areas where thecommunication stops, where the idea that I am tryingto put across to you doesn't fit within your scope,within your view, within your experiences, within yourbackground -- not only you, but many people in Canada,in the world. And it's because of this that we havemisunderstanding.

But we have to be able to cometo understand, to see through these things and to be ableto communicate these things. Maybe you should haveMarshall McLuhan travelling with you. If we are going tobe able to live together here, if the pipeline people aregoing to be able to understand the Dene people, they aregoing to have to come to understand what I have said, andwhat many people here, Dene people, have said even ifit's hard for them to understand they are going to haveto make that move. I have spoken to you now for almost45 minutes, and only in this last 5-10 minutes have Ilost you, some of you, because in the first part of it Iwas speaking from your context, from your understanding,from your words, from your background, and now I'm askingyou to understand me from mine.

If you don't want to make thateffort, then in fact you don't mean it when you say, "Wehave to live together, we have to work together," becausewe have to, but to do it you have to come, you have tocome too, you have to understand me as much as expect me


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111 to want to understand you.The love of the Dene for the

land is in their tone of voice, a touch, the care forplants, the life of the people and their knowledge thatthat life as a people stems directly from the land. Theland is seen, as mother because she gives life, becauseshe is the provider, the protector, the comforter. Sheis constant in a changing world, yet changing in regularcycles. She is a story-teller, a listener, a traveller,yet she is still, and when she suffers we all suffer withher; and very often in many parts of the world whetherthey believe this or not, many people suffer because theyhave abused their land. She is a teacher, a teacher whopunishes swiftly when we err, yet a benefactress whoblesses abundantly when we live with integrity, respecther, and love the life she gives.We cannot stand on her with integrity and respect andclaim to love the life she gives and allow her to beravaged.

These are not threats. Thepeople have not threatened violence. We are reactingto daily violence against us and our beliefs, and tothreats of an ultimate act of violence from the south,an act so violent that experiencing the results of thepetty violence which has been till now; it might besafe to say that a war of genocide by Canada against uswould be less violent in terms of the next two to sixgenerations.

There are many ideas and wecan't express them all, and yet we want to impress you


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with an attitude to create an atmosphere, to leave youwith more than a few intellectual facts. I feel thatperhaps Earl's approach with a poem yesterday did thisbetter than other presentations. It did for me, and so Ihave another one for you. I'd like to introduce this bysaying something that has really hit me in the last twodays. Many of us have been saying, you know, "We have toreturn to the spirit as native people."

The thing that hit me is thatthe spirit has to cane to us. I didn't discuss withFrancis what he said about nobody is threateningviolence, we want to live and let live. So who taughthim that and who taught me that, and we have bot said it?I didn't discuss with Phoebe what she said about beingpaper people, so who taught her that? Who taught me that?I'm going to say it.

"paper men, paper men, paper men blooowpaper men, paper men, paper men sew sew sewpaper men, paper men, paper men blow

hanging from strings they giggle and dancehanging from strings they squiggle and prancehanging from strings they do not control theyrustle to silence the voices of

people men, people men, people men crypeople men, people men, people men die


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people men, people men, people menwhy do the strings of the paper menjail you out, jail you in, jail you frompeople, people who weeppeople, people who laughpeople, people who live and diein hunger, in hunger, in hunger of lovein hunger of food, in hunger of people,people, people, people, people, people"

Our God is not dead. Our spirit lives and it isn't in-stitutionalized. We are a people of people, not of pa-per, not of corporation; we are people of people and wemust be respected in our right to pursue out life withinthis standard. I thank you.

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank youvery much, Mr. Lamothe. We should like to have yourwritten material, if you would let us keep it so that itcan be marked as an exhibit. (WITNESS ASIDE) (SUBMISSION BY RENE LAMOTHE MARKED EXHIBIT C-199)

Mr. Bonnetrouge, I understandyou willing, in a few sentences, to sum up in Slavey whatMr. Lamothe said. You told re that at coffee. I'm notembarrassing you, am I?

THE INTERPRETER: I'll try toexplain what he is talking about and sort of compare --(INTERPRETER COMPLIES) THE COMMISSIONER: Well, sir--Iwonder I if you'd swear in this witness?

ALFRED NAHANNI sworn:THE INTERPRETER: He's Alfred Nahanni THE COMMISSIONER: Go ahead, sir.


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THE INTERPRETER: AlfredNahanni, I am a trapper ever since I can remember, livingin the bush, and just the last summer I did a little bitof work in town, but I still do quite a bit of trappingand still live in the bush in a little cabin. One of mymain concerns tonight would be in the form of a question,because I heard of the pipeline starting pretty soon, andit will be - somebody told me it's going to be near myhome, so I'd like to direct a couple of questions to thepipeline companies.

Where would that pipelineright-of-way be? Where would that pipe be? How far awayor how near to my cabin or my home would the pipe belaid, and also he wants to ask a question about the sizeof the pipe, and when he mentions the size of the pipe hesays there is always bush fires in the summertime, and ifthey made the pipe too big or too near the surface of theground the fire will destroy and burn my land. Once thefire gets at the gas in the pipe, it would destroy thewhole Mackenzie Valley, so no pipeline is better for us,and when he says "us", he talks about himself as anIndian, and he talks and he says I speak for a lot of myfriends when I say, "No pipeline is better for us."

We need to know who isproposing this pipeline, and what's going to be in it andwho is going to be the actual benefit -- who is actuallygoing to benefit from the pipeline? We need to know moreabout the pipeline and when he talks that way I -- hesays I mean we want to know more about the pipelinebecause what we do not know, we are scared of and we


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don't want because we do not know anything about it.Long ago we have been always

from the land and traditionally we have been poor, andthe introduction of the white man's ways have made things-- it was for a time a bit better than the old times, butnow things have deteriorated again. The way they'regoing right now we may have to return to the bow andarrow days to subsist or just to breathe, I guess,instead of dying off.

Referring to the high cost ofliving, and he refers to the inflation of all differentthings that he himself sees, and grocery bills going up,and he talks about the introduction of more steel 1.4products around him in stores, machinery, equipment, andhe might even be referring to this microphone, steel. Hesays up here in the cold, in the north steel destroys alot of things because in the cold steel cannot be used,and with more introduction or with more incoming steelproducts up here in the north, we will eventually diebecause we will be overpowered by something that doesn'tfeel the cold. That will be the eventual destruction ofthe Indian people of the north.

He refers to the steel productsthat are still coming in by barge, road, or whatever.Who is doing this? He'd like to know. He doesn't feel.It's actually the government, or maybe the governmentdoesn't even know because according to him with inflationand all, monetary values and whatnot, steel prices aregoing down so that steel is cheap today and it's going tobe scattered all over the north. If that happens,


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something will have to give, it will have to be the landand its animals and eventually its people who wouldstarve, who would die of starvation if this trend isgoing to keep on.

He refers to water andpollution. He says every morning you get up, the firstthing that you reach for is a tin cup for something thatwill get you -- something to drink:, it's water andthat's survival and that's every morning when you get up.With pollution you can poison yourself.

We need more information aboutthis pipeline and more what the people call dialogue, Iguess, or, consultation because in the past the white mantalks to us or proposes in idea, and we keep our headdown and nod, but today it is not like that. We areasking questions or beginning to ask. questions atleast, and he keeps referring to steel products which arein store, warehouses, Hudson's Bay Stores and whatnot.This keeps on and the pipeline will a part of this trendto bring more steel, it's going to be a steel pipeline,and he says when I think of that we are better offwithout the pipeline.

He is talking about an idea andI think his daughter, Phoebe, can interpret better than Ican. I just can't express it in English

THE COMMISSIONER: We'll just--

MISS NAHANNI: There's a numberof interpretations here.

CHIEF ANTOINE: I'm going to


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attempt to interpret what he's saying.The reason why we're confused

here is because what he's saying is like a vision, in away like a prediction of how he sees things, and how hesee what's going to happen in the future to us people,including the non-native as well as native.

What he's saying is that themoney is getting scarce, there's hardly money around, andthe prices are going higher, the prices in the stores andthings like that are going higher. It's like that allover the place, and there's more and more stuff coming inbut there's no money, and it's going to keep on going.There's a lot of things taken out of the north and it'sthe money value on it is going down south: and it's useddown south probably to -- for -- and he says that allthis money is going down south, there's nothing left inreturn of the natural resources, that is being exploited;that is taken out of the north. This is why there's nomoney up here, yet there's more and more products comingup here from natural resources. If this continues,there's going to be a lot of problems in the north, andthe ultimate -- the final result will be there will bedeath and it is going to destroy everybody up here.People are going to die off and even the young peoplewill, die off because of that, and if the money for thenatural resources aren't returned to the north,, youknow, this is going to happen, there's going to bedestruction; but if the money is. returned, maybe thingswill be a lot better up here.

He's saying that there's lots


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of money that has been taken out of here already, andit's not returned. This is what's causing the situationthat I just explained.

I think that's the way Iinterpret that.

MISS NAHANNI: My interpretationis based on other discussions that my father and I hadabout Dene, and what we understand about what's happeningaround us, and I have tried to come to grips with tryingto explain some of his symbolic descriptions of how hesees what is going on, and actually my older sister cando better than I can; but basically what I understandwhat he's saying and it may have a lot of bearing on howI see things as well -- for what it's worth, here is myinterpretation. He is asking a question of an economicnature, how come the value of the dollar -- when he saysthat it's really not steel, but it's money he's talkingabout -- the value of the money or the dollar is goingdown and the government has spent a lot of money up here,and yet the money value is going down. How come? We'dlike to get some hint on an answer.

In relation to -- he's thinkingpossibly that the value of the money has a relationshipwith the wars that have been going on in the world, andthat the value of the money, or the money spent on warhas been so much that if the natural resources up herewere used and depleted, the money that is spent on wars,we would have to get. some kind of return over andbeyond the amount of money spent on wars. That's myinterpretation of it.


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THE COMMISSIONER: Thank youvery much, Mr. Nahanni.

(WITNESS ASIDE)CHIEF ANTOINE: I think there

is just one speaker and I'd like to speak again and thenmaybe we could call it off.

THE COMMISSIONER: Excuse me,Before we leave tonight, Mr. Ellwood and Mr. Workman,when we adjourn after this gentlemen has spoken, maybeyou would go with Mr. Nahanni and Phoebe Nahanni to thatwall and he could point out his cabin and you couldexplain where your pipelines are going in relation to thecabin. Do that after we adjourn, yes sir?

LESTER ANTOINE sworn:THE WITNESS: Mr. Berger, I am

Lester Antoine, a native of the Fort Simpson Band.I strongly support the land

claim, since it was the first problem to have come upbefore the pipeline.

I say to you settle the landclaim so we the people can have a base to work on from,and then we can be ready for other problems to come.

Another thing, I was taught tolive off the land by an old man in Jean Marie and livingoff the land I like a lot, and I still go out to hunt andtrap, and to breathe the fresh air.

Before I close there is oneother thing. If we put some bannock in a packsack and


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send a white man in the bush for two or three days, hewould hardly survive. Thank you.

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you,Maybe we could keep your statement, if you would let ushave it, please. Thank you.(SUBMISSION BY LESTER ANTOINE MARKED EXHIBIT C-20)

(WITNESS ASIDE)CHIEF ANTOINE: Mr. Berger, I

think this is about all the people that we have thatwant to speak on the native viewpoint, and I'd like tothank you once again for coming and listening to what wehave to say. I'd also like to thank the rest of thepeople that travel with you, news people and Whit Fraserfor coming here.

What we have said today is --we have talked among ourselves. Some of the people Inever talked to who spoke out, and the view that wasbrought to you today is what we really feel. I guess youcould tell, and the way we see what's happening arounduse I only hope that things get better for the Denepeople in Simpson, and we're going to try to work outthese problems ourselves, and I understand this is goingto be going on tomorrow again but as the Chief I speakfor the Indian people, I don't speak for white people.So maybe tomorrow you might hear some things against whatwe said today but that is the common thing for us inSimpson.

I didn't come here to debate oranything like that about anything, and I think weexpressed ourselves quite clearly, the way we see things.


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So, once again I'd just likethank you. Mussi.

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, thankyou, Chief, and I want to thank all of you who spoke thisafternoon and this evening. An Inquiry like this, is anopportunity for us to stop and think about where we aregoing and it is clear to me from what I heard yesterdayat the Community Hall and today here at the LaPointe Hallthat the people of Fort Simpson have been thinking andwhat you've said was very useful to me, I mean thatbecause I feel that I can learn from each one of you. Sothank you for the contributions you have made yesterdayand today, and I should remind you again that everythingyou say has been taken down, it is printed, and I have --it gives me a chance to read; and re-read what you havesaid, even after I have left is Fort Simpson, so thatwhat you said yesterday and today 1911 will remain withme.

So we will -- perhaps you wouldtranslate that, Mr. Bonnetrouge.

(INTERPRETER COMPLIES)THE COMMISSIONER: We'll

adjourn until 9:30 tomorrow morning.(PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO SEPTEMBER 10, 1975)


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fort simpson, n.w.t. september 9, 1975. volume 26 ft simpson... · 2015. 1. 29. · fort simpson,...

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