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F I LED IN THE UNITlm STATES DISTHICT COU 'r DISTRICT OF NEBRASKA

A~ M.

FOR THE DISTRICT OF NEBRASKA . JUL 1 6 1980-~ .

William L. Olson, Clerk

ERNEST CHAMBERS; CV '79-L-294 J-A.

Plaintiff,

vs. DEPOSITION TAKEN IN

, FRANK MAHSH, STATE TREASURER BEHALF OF PLAINTIFF

et al., , I

Defendants.

DEPOSITION OF: R9bert Palmer

DATE: ,May 27, 1980

TIME: 1,:40 p.m.

PLACE: 633 S. 9th, Suiti 300, Lincoln, Nebraska

APPEARANCES:

Mr. Herbert J. Friedman Attorney at Law 633 S. 9th, SuLte 300' Lincoln, ,Nebraska

Mr. Shanler D. Cronk Assistant Attorney G~neral 2115 State Capitol' Lincoln, Nebraska

for Plaintiff

for Defe'ndants

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1 S-T-I-P-U-L-A-T-I-O-N-S

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3 !t is hereby stipulated and agreed by and between·

4 'the parties that:

5 ' Notice of taking ~aid d~position is waived; ,notice

6 of filing said deposition is waived;

7. Presence of the witness, during the transcription of

8 the stenotype notes is waived;

9 All obj~ctions ar~ reser~ed until time of trial

10 except those relating to form and foundation of the

11 question and responsiveness of the answer.

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Of lawful age, being first duly c~utioned'and solemnly sworn as hereinafter certified, was examined and test~fied as follows:

17 BY MR. FRIEDMAN: !

18

19 A.

20 Q.

Would you state your name, please I and address? '\

Rqbe~t Palmer, 1035 Fall' Creek Road, in Lincoln

Reverend Palmer, my name is Herb Friedman. I'm here

21· today ~eprisenting Senator Chambers. I'm going to ask y6u

22 some questions ~oncerning the'case that=s been filed in the )

23 United States District cotirt., And if at any time you don't '

24 unders~and my questions, plea~e ask me and I will try and

25 rephrase them. Fair enough?

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1 A. Fair.

2 Q. Okay. You have been the Chaplain of the Legislature

3 since 1965, is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. All right. Can you tell me the mechanism by which you

6 were elected or sele..eted to be Chaplain of the Legislature?

7 A. I believe it was generally .known, certainly through the

8 press, that the previous Chaplain died while in office.

9 Q. Who was that?

10 A. 15 years ago. I never knew the man.

11 Q. Okay. How did you get in the picture?

12 A. Along with many other clergy persons, I met with the

'I c) , .......... 13 Executive Council, I believe, ~nd was interviewed by them .

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14 Q. All right.

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15 A. And on the ~asis of their deliberations, ~ was selected. I !

16 Q. What demoni~ation do'you belong to?

i I 17 A. Presbyterian Church.

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I 18 Q. Do you know th~ d~nomVnatibns of any of the other people

19 that were interviewed?,

20 A. It would be unfair for me to say. There must have been

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21 many. 15 people, perhaps.

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15 years ago, back in 1955, was this a paid position?, Q.

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1 23 .A. I don't honestly remember whether there was salary

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24 initially. If there was, it was a smaller amount than there

25 is now.

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1 Q. All right. And what is the salary now?

2 A. I don't really know. I've never been told. And I've

3 never been told how it was raised.

4 Q. All rignt. It.lhen you say how it was rai sed? what do you

5 mean by thai?

6 A. I know it's more now ihan it was 15 years ag~. I ve I

7,nev~r made salaiy a point of my being asked to be Chaplain.

8 Q~ Do you get the salary?

9 A. _ I receive a chec~during the course of the Legislature

10 only, of course. Approximately a monthly basis.

11 Q. But the check does go to you person~llYl it doesn't go

12 to your church?

13 N. It goes -- it'~ made out to me.

14 Q. Now, when you, when the ~egislature first hired you or

15 certain ,Senators of the Legislature hired you, vIas there any

16 con~ersation as to the context of the prayers or how your

17 services would be performed?

18 A. You say the context of the prayers?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. At the 'opening of ~each session.

21 Q. Ani comments by the legisl,ative officers as to whether ;

22 or not those prayers should be Christian in denomination or

23 nonsectar ian or was anything ever mentioned about it?

24 A. I don't know what you mean by nonsectarian 1 but nothing

25 was ever mentioned •

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Q. When I say nonsectarian I guess not referting to any

particular religious faith.

A. Nothing was ever said.

Q. All right. Did you ever ask?

A. Oh, yes, on a number of 'occasions.

Q. What did .you ask?

A.. I asked concerning the content o( the prayers. I've ,

never given a sectarian prayer :in the tegislature, ever, in

15 years.

Q. Wh~t do yoU mean by a sectarian -- maybe we ought to

just, since y~ulve -- .

A. ~hat!s yoUr phrase, not mine.

Q. Yeah. Pardon?

A. Sectarian was your phrase.

Q. Yeah. What do you mean by you 1 ve never given a sectarian -

A. You1re th~ lawyer. What does a s~ctarian mean to you?

Q. Doctor, I don't mean to quarrel, but I am taking the

deposi tion. Whydonrt you' tell me --I .

A. A sectarian is on~ that denotes a particular cult or

sect.

Q. You don't believe yout~e ever --

A. Never. A particUlar cult or sect. I believe my prayers

have been in the mainstream of the Judeo-Christian tradition.

Q. Well

A. Wellt now, some, of course, re~lect more of the Jewish

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1 tradition, som~ .reflect more of the Christian tradition. ~y

2 sectarian I mean a prayer which, promotes some particular-

3 .demonination.

4 Q. All right. Doctor, I'm handing you -..,. you've got these I

5 documents which are going to be offered into evidence, I

6 assume. Why don t we mark these?

(Exhibits 1-3 marked

8 for identification.)

9 Q. (By Mr. Friedman Now, Doctor, Il~ like you to refer to --.-

10 MR_ FRIEDMAN: I'm going to offer into

11 evidence. now Exhibits I, 2, and 3.

12 Q • (By "Me Friedtncim) Exhibit No.1 is a prayer book for the . ' . /

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13 84th Legislative Session,' 1975 •. Is that correct?

14 A. Appears to be.

15 Q. Okay. Now, I wonder if you I d go through there and tell

16 me which of those prayers reflect the Judeo, Jewish doctrine

17 and which of them refer to the Christian doctrine?

18 A. It would take me a long time to do that.

19 Q. I Well--

20 A. These are the prayers for an entire "session.

21 Q. Well, I know. But you h~~e told me that many of those

22 prayers reflect the Jewish doctrine. And I'd kind of like to

23 know which of those prayers reflect the Jewish doctrine.

24 A. I said the Judeo-Christian tradition.

25 Q.' All right. Tell me wh ich of them: re f1 ect the

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1 Judeo-'Christian tradition. Directing your attention to

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January 13, 1975, on page one.

A. I was reading, f6r example, the first;one in the bbok.

Q.Okay.

A. And I frankly f~el th,is is the kind of prayer which

reflects almost what I would call the American civil religion, ,

just as when you, I was ,asked if I promised to tell the truth

so help me God. I don I t th ink that was a sec tar ian comment

that I made when I said I would tell the truth so help me God.

I don't think ~there's' anything sectarian in January 8th,

which is as far as I've read, for example.

Q. Let's go down to January 13th.

A. All right. Well, I would say except for the la~t

14 sentence, it reflects the -- well, I'd say the entire prayer

. 15 reflects the J'udeo-CQristian tradition. The only point that

( . 16 is specifically Christian is the last sentence. The rest I

17 regard a~ frankly the kind of a prayer th~t could have been

ll~ offered by a religi~us persbn of an~ faith.

19;Q. The last sentence', what does -the last sentence say?

20A. In the n~me of Christ Our, Lord.

21 Q. You'd a~ree, I assume, that --

22 A.' It's a Christian.

23 Q. Narrows it down to a Christian prayer?

24 A. I wciuldn't say ~ectarian, but lId say ChrJstian.

25 ) Q. Perhaps we ought to deffne bur terms so we are not going

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1 t6 quibbleabout semantics. When I say sectarian I'm

2 referring to some sect, some relig~ous sect. Now, is that

'3 wh~t you under~tand.that to mean?

4 IA. A sect,Itm not certain what you mean by sect.

5 Q. Some part icular relig ion.

6 A.' A sect is not a religion. To me it. would be a gross . 7 inj ust ice to mill ions of people around the wo rId were I to

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8 say that Islam is a sect or the Jewish faith i~ a sect or the

9 Christiati faith is a sect. In no way is that a sect by any

1,0 stretch of my imagination or by any jumbl'e of semantics I can

11 . imag ine.

12 Q. What, does nonsectarian me-an?

13 A. Nonsectarian is one that does not promote the /

. 14 furtherance of any specific group, cult or division of the

15 Judeo-Christian faith.

16 Q. Mov ing on to January 14, 1975, aga in you refer red to

11 through Jesus Christ"Our Lord.

18 A. Uh-huh.

19 Q. And the next t'ime you pr ayed was January 20 I 1975. f

20 A. I mentioned Jesus' name there, yes.

21 . Q. That's right. And then June, January 21st,' 1975, again

22 A. You will find Jesus! name throughout th~se prayers.

23 Q. I --

24 A. Not in all of them.

.25 Q.. Now, were you aware that there were other members of .i;:he .

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1 ,Legislature who were not Christian?

2 A. I have been made aware. There have not always been

.3 othets. And I've talked with some of them, a~ a matter' of

4 fact.

5 Q •. Okay. You knew that Senator Chambers w~s a member of

6 the Legislature?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. t10fhen did Senator Chambersfi'rst. become a member? Do you

9. remember? ,

10 A. I would have t6 ~e1y upon memory. It could be as long

11 as 10 years ago.

12 Q. At any rate, wer~ you aware of the fact that Senator

13 Chambers was not a Christian?

14 . A. I knew.that he was, I was told hewa.s the son of a

15 Baptist preache!.

16 Q. But were you aw~re of the fact that he him~elf was not a

17 Chri'stian?

18 A. Not personally. r kne~'he was the son of a Baptist

19 pr~acher, or I was "told that.

20 Q'. Are y6u aware now that he is not a Christian?

21 A. I read that in the newspaper.

22 Q. Do you know, you now kriow he"s not a/Christian, I take

23 it?

24 A. NO f I don't know that. I would never make that, judgment

2,5 about another human be ing. Never. That I s not my pI ace to

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1 judge.

2 Q. Okay.

3 A. Really, that would be the most blatant thing I cou~d

4 ever say was, to declare someone was not a Christian or not a

5 Jew. I would never declare that.

6 Q. Can you tell me why you frequ~ntly use the words Jesus

7 anq Christ"in your prayers?

8 A. It strikes m~ that Jesus is a major figure in the

9 Judeo-Christian heritage!

10 Q. I understad that. But why did you use them in your

11 prayers?

12 A. Why do I use quotations from the Psalms or Moses or

13 Abraham? Because this aountry is a country that recognizes

14 the Bible.

15 Q.'" Are you wi lling to concede tha t your praye r s we r e, fo r

the most .part, Christian in tone, at least?

17 A. I would not say that. I would say they use the name of

18 Jesus some times at the very end .. But· I would say that by I (

19 and large they could 'be delivered by someone of any faith, by

20 and large.

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Q. Except fdr the references to Jesus?

A. Well, you see, Jesus i~ recognized by most Jews that I

know as a great teacher, even a prophet. And by all ,Muslims I

that I know as that and more.

Q. All right. (

Has anyone at the L~gislature ever suggested

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1 that your prayers be:6ore a session or ,at the begin~ing of f3

2 session be, have no reference to any religious figure?

3 A. Someone·made a comment this year that they would pTefer

4 th~t Jesus specifically not be so prominent in the prayers.

5 And if you will check my prayers this year, Jesus has not

6 been mentioned.

7 Q. Since this lawsuiti I take it, then \.

8 A. No. Not since the la~suit. Someone mentioned it to me

9 this year.

10 Q. l,980?

11 A. Vh-huh.

12 Q. I take it the lawsuit had nothing to do with it then?

13 A. This was a matter/of personal privilege that someone

14 asked me as a personal friend, in confidence. And I said I

15 respect that. And I have not used that reference this year,

16 to my knowledge.

17 Q. Someone from the Legislature?

18' A. I believe it was someorie on the floor this year.

19 Q. Wasn't anybody --

20 A. It' could have b~en off. the floor. It ,was not Senator

21 Chambers, if that's what you're referring to. ,

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Q" This was a legislative --

A. Actually it was not m~d, to me directly. It came to me

thi rd hand. And out of defe rence to tha t person! s reI ig io US

procli~ities I have not used that reference since then.

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1 That person, I take it, was not a Christian, is that,

2 right?

3 A. I don't know. Since it was third hand, i'd hate tb say.

4 Butrout of deference to his religious sensitivities, or his I

5 irreligious sensitivitie~ or religious insensiti~ities I

6 chose not to.

7 Q. Would you agree that your services, that your prayerd,

8 at, least, ·because of the frequent reference to Jesus, add a

9 uniquely Christian flavor to your prayers?

10 A. I'd say by and large they're not Christian prayers. Not

11 the kind Iw()u1d ev)er offer tn church, no, No f they,' re not

12 specifically Christian' prayers. There' are references to Jesus,

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to be Sure. But there ar~ equal referen~es to the Old

Testament. As ,a matter,of fact --

Q. Would you, care to point out some of these prayers? )

A. If the truth were known f thele are many secular

references as well.

Q. Would you care to point out in those prayers which of f

those are secular and which

A. And which are wha't? ;.

Q. Just which are secular and which are nonchristian?

A. Well, I don't accept those as two categories, mut~a1ly

23 exclusive. I think that both the Judeo and the Christian

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he~itage have inf1ue~ced the sectilar heritage immensely. And

25 contrary-wise the secular heritage has influenced the Judaism

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herit~ge. At times it's hard to separate the two. But there

are many thirigs you and I talked about in conversation that

have'the flare of Judaism heritage.

Q •. I suppose the ~uestion"Doctor Palmer, would you care to -

A. You asked about a sectar ian reference. 11m just read i~<J

the first page, which is far as I hav~ gotte,n.

Q. Where have you gone now? Which exhibit?,

A. The only exhibit lIve opened so for, which is first

session 1975, the Nebraska Unicameral 84th Legislature.

All right. If I may just say something here I'm

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talking in the very se,cond paragraph, some oId faces are gone

fiom this chamber. That is not Chrlstian or nonchristian,

it'S just a comment abdut life. ,I don1t see that there'S

anything religio~s or ir~eligious.

I talk about the invigorating climate of freedom. traIt< , , ,

about fr ankness, fo rti tude, I fa i t'hfulness. In the very next

prayer I talk about plunging into the duties of this day's

sessions.

Q. And you say, 0 Lord, our God.

A. As I did when I ~as asked to ,tell the truth today, so 'j

help me God. Yes. that's the God I~m taiking about. The same

one you asked me to talk about when I promised to tell the

truth.

Q. I guess the question is

A. There's only one God.

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1 Q. Not your religion or my religion --

2 A. No.

3 Q. My question is, are the prayers you offer up for the.

4 m6~t part Christian in fla~or?

5 A-. All right. Going on to the next one here. No. They

6 are not. The very next one here, the whole paragraph I speak ,

7 about silence in the senate chamber. I say, may no short

8 cirGuits be ma~e by our lack of faith, our high professions

9 joiried to low attain~ents.

10 Q. Fai th in what?

11 A. Well, that's up to the individual Senator to decide, not

12 for me to propose my religious convictions. I have 'never,

() 13 never should~ never wduld, never will, never have infused my

14 particular religious convictions into the minds of the

15 Senators.

16 My point has beenr t have used words as our constitution

17 has used wo rds and as the Ptes idents of the Un! ted Sta tes for

18 200 years have used words into which the individual .citizens.

19 may infuse their own meaning~.

20 For example, I'm still on the first pager may no ~hort

21 circuits be ma~e by our lack of faith. Our faith in America.!

22 Our high profes'sions. Our profession to be a good Senator ~ ..

23 Joined to l~w attaihment. A low attainment is not being a

c) 24, good Senator. Our fine words. I ~ee nothing Christian or

2~ unchristian or Jewigh or unchristian about the word word.

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1 Hiding shabby thought~. Shabby, I never saw that word in tne

2 Bible. Friendly faces masking cold hearts. That's the kind

3 of thing, you could read in this morning I s newspaper.

4 SOr you know, when you talk about these t ba~i~ally there

5 or basically that, if they are anything they are basically

6 not religious. ,They ar~ of t'he stuff of life.

7 . Q. The second paragraph on the prayer of January 9, 1975.

8 A. Uh-hUh.

9 Q. That's in quotes. It says, I'what we know not, teach uSr "

10 et cetera.

11 A. Uh-huh.

12 Q. Where does that come from?

13 A. I have an ext~nsive file of secular writings. And it's

14 just out of that file. I didn't think it would be

15 appropriate to say as I read ih the New York Times last

16 Sunday, dated such and such and place such and such. This

17 could have come out bf any place.

18 I don I t know. It certainly did not come out of any

19 r,eligious writing. So I '.d say lin a sense that is, you asked

20 abou~ an eKample of secularism r tha~'s secularism.

21 Q. Now, let's move on down to the 13th of January where we

22 talk about -- and l'~ really primarily' concerned aboui the

23 fact that you mentioned Our Heavenly Father many times. You

24 mention God many tim~s. You mention Christ our Lord many

25 times ..

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1 A. At the beginning of each prayer and at the end of each ( .: '-.,--.J 2 ,prayer there are from tirne to time references to deity. And

3 ~ think that seems to be what concerns you the most. Oh the J

'4 other hand, ,I donltknow if a prayer would be a prayer if I

5 sa~d, 0 Statehouse hear us. Is not a prayer by definition a

6 desire to involve deity? That force which created our world

7, and gave this country freedom somehow or other to find some

8 relev~nbe for those 49 men and women standin~ on the floor I I, 9 and for those assisting them roundabout so that they may find

10 some contact with this deity, whatever their religious or \

11 irreligious persua$ion pr lack of persuasion may be. I -

That,

12 to me, is one of the functions,of a Chaplain. ,

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q. Are you aware of the fact that --you're now aware of

the fact, I take it, that Senator Chambers is an atheist?

15 A. The only indication I have o~ that is your telling me

16 that today and some ,references I have seen in the newspaper

I 17 and $O,me references in some papers that I bel ieve that I was

18 served with. Apart f~om that I have no indication that he is. I

19 As a matter of fact, in many ways I hear him speaking

20 out of th. Hebrew Christian tradition. As a matter of fact,

21 I would go so' f~r ~s to say th~t he often speaks out of the

22 Hebrew Christian tradition. So for that man to be identified ..

23 among the 6ther 48, as the atheist, frankl~, is aurprising to

24 me.

25 Q. Well, now, let's go back and

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1 A. Frankly is very surprising to me.

2 Q .• Well, let's go back and talk about the flavor that these

3 prayers portray.

4 A. The flavor?

5 Q. The flavor. Would you say that they're Christian

6 prayers, at least in the s~nsethat you use the word Jesu~

·7 and Chr.i'st? Would· tha;t be fa'ir to say?

8 A. No, that wouldn't b~ fair to say <;it all. I have my

9 specific reference poi,nts, as you do. The majority of the

10 prayers are not Jewish, not Christian, not Islamic. And I

,11 could ',go 'on mentioning other faiths, which I think would be

12 poihtless. I'

13 The majority of the prayers reflect more of what I don't

14 like to use as'a phrase, but I will, to clarify thingsr just

15 pivil religion in American. The kind of religious

16 .expressions that are common to the vast, ov~rwhelming

17 majority of most all Americans.'

18 Q. What do you mean by civil religion?

19 A. . By civil religion I mean a re~igion that reflects the

20 thinking, of most Americans. And is not sectarian in any , '

21 sense at all.

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Q. Now, are you saying that these prayers that you've

of fer ed to the Leg i slature are for the most part deal ing in

civil religion?

A. I think'they are for the most part dealing with

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1 humankind's most basic needs to connect with the divinity.

2 And they reflect something of the divil religion tha,t I

3 mentioned before.

4 Q. I take it the civil religion doesn':t have any particular

5 brand?

6 A. The only brand I would ever. label it with is U. S. A •.

7 Q. It I s the Amer ica~, reI ig ion?

8 A. It'~ a religi~n that chara6terizes the thinking of a

9 vast majority of Ameri~ans.

10 Q. Okay. Christian Americans? Jewish Americans?

11 A. Americans. Americans period.

12 Q. Just any kind of Americans?

i -j () 13 A. Any kind of Amer icans . ,

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Q. And I take it, then; you believe that the prayers that

youhve offered to the Legislature belong to this kind of

16 American religion?

17 A. I say they partake of that as much or more than any

18 other particular~ as YdU use th~ word, flavor. You see, if n

19 you put --

20 Q. I ask the questions, Doctor. NOw, when you use the term

21 Our Father, are you r~ferr ing to God?

22 A. I am referring as a Muslim, as a Jew, as a Christian, as

,23 any religious person in the history of the world would refer

() 24 to the supreme being, of the universe.

. 25 Q. You're referring, though, to a religious connotation?

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I A. No, I'm not referring to religion at all. That's my

2 precise point. It has nothing to do with religion. It has

~- to do with reality. It's an acknowledgment that we are.

4 creatures of a divine being and we did not create ourselves.

5 Q. You don't b~lieve that has anything to do with religion?

6 A. It has to do with reality. I .

7 Q. If you're religious it h~k to do with r~ality; dpesn't

8 it?

9 A. No. To me religiori Is the performance of certain

10 sectarian acts, deeds, liturgies, books, assemblies, days,

11 observances. I don't rega~d ·these as religious. I think this

12 is an acknowledgment of reality.

13 Q. When you say Our Father, that simply means reality?

14 A. Real i ty. It.' s ~ phrase that I picked up f rom my

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readings in Islam, in Judaism, in Christianity and every

16 other major reI ig ion of modern wo rld and -anc i ent wo rId.

17 Q~ What about, through Jesus Christ our Lord?

18 A. You seem hung up on,that particu1ai phrase.

19 Q. Well, I'm not bung up on it.

20 A. .It keeps recurr ing, ev,en though I only use it '\ .

21 selective~y.

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23

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Q. It keeps recurring in your prayers.

A. Until it's pointed out to me third hand that someone

raised questions ,b~ut it, arid I have not ysed it since then.

Q. When did you stop using it?

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1 A.' When someone mentioned that it was, for them, you kno~.

2 ~ess than the very best way by which they may be led into the

3 presenge of the divine. My purpose there is, during a -few I 4 moments, to enable the Senators and those around them to

5 pause for a moment and reflect upon the divine significance

6 6f their daily doing~.

7 Q. And I take it that you don't believe that these prayers

8 where you mention, through Jesus Christ our Lord, th~t's on

9. January 21st, 1975, for Jesus' sake on January 20, 1975

10 through Jesus Ch~ist our Lord, on JanuaJY 14, 1975, and in

11 the name of Christ our Lord, January 13, 1975, to pick out

12 just four random days, you don't believe that that makes

13 i

theseprayer~ flavored in the Christian doctrine?

14 A. If I were preparing.a pot of soup and I wanted that soup

15 to have a religious flavor, I would put in ,some religious

,16 ingredients. If I wanted it to have an irreligious flavor I

17 would put in irreligious ingredients, whatever they might be.

18 'rhere are on the f1oo~ of the r.eg i slature I among the 49 I

19 Senators, I know, a pr~ponderance of people who are of the

20 Judea-Christian heritage.

/ 21 'Q. ;

What ~o you ~ean by the Judeo-Christian heritaie? I

22 A. I mean that heritage which reflects the story of

23 humankind's search for the Almighty in the pages, of .the Bible

24 that has been, in eSSence, the herjtage which is the founding

25 of America's heritage as a nation which calls itself a

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1 religious natfon.

2 Q. Where does it say in the constitution that we are a

3 religious nation?

4 A. Well, you asked me, as an American citizen, to say so \,

'5 help me God. That's where it says something about it.

6 Q. Again, perhaps ~e're belaboring the poinL There's

7 really no trick question about this. I simply want to know,

~ in ydur opinion, do these prayers reflect a Christian flavor?

9 I take it you I',re tellofng me' they 'don! t?

10 A.What I sai~ was they reflect the kind of flav6r that

11 reflects American beliefs. And by American beliefs I mean ,

12 the beliefs of a majority of American people. And, I might

13 say, a majority of the Senators on the floor of the

14 Legislature.

15 If the truth were known, I would suspect that the

.16 overwh~lming m~jority of th~ Senators, whatever their

17 religious persuasions might be, would wish that I had far

18 more elements of the Judea-Christian heritage in my prayers. I

19 Because I know most of th~m ta be God loving, serving, men

20 and women.

21 And I meeb with them in prayer at their request from

22 time to time informally. And invariably when.I hear them

23 pray, their prayers hd~e much more flavor of ' the Jewish

24 Chr i stian her i tager tha~ mine ever do. And why? Beca use they

25 are speaking personally and I'm not.

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1 Q .• Directing your attention to January 30, 1975, you

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2 mention, 0 Lord and Saviour of us all.

A. Uh-huh •.

4 Q. What do you mean by that?

5 A. I bel ieve that the Almighty wi shes to rec,ieem and save

6 his whole wo·r1d. And he does it by lovLng us and c~11ing us

7 to 10v.e one another in a common service of him.

8 Q. So·I take it:"' ...

9 A. That's what's the Senators are about f trying to save our

10 country.

11 Q. So I take it when you saYI 0 Lord and Saviour of us alII

~2 you're referring to what you call the Judeo-Christian

13 heritage?

14 A. That's what's I am saying.

15 Q. And w~en you are talking about I in all these other

16 prayers when you refer to God and Jesus you're basically

17 referring to the Judeo-Chrisd.ahheritagEjl?

18 A. If there were Islamic Senators standing on the floor I r I

19 would use the phrase Allah.

20 Q. Well j let 1 s just leave it at what you mean when you talk

21. about God and Jes us.

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A. I mean --

Q. You haven 1 t talked about Allah f you've talked about God

and Jes us.

A. Th. reason I did was becau~e I was doing my very honest

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1 best to represent all. the people of Nebraska and the

2 convictions of all the Senators as best I knew them in making

3 these prayers as general as possible so as noi to offenH one I ,

4 soul. But rather to lift every soul closer to who they are

5,

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as human befngs, to be more sensitive to all th~ people they /

serve and to the God whom the? str ive to honor> ('.,

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Q. Well,~I take it you would at least agree that these

8 pr~yers are religious in nature, then?

9 A. I quite donlt ~nderstand that question. I, it seems to

10 me a contradiction in terms. Are these prayers religious?

11 Is the ~unshine weather? The.sunshine is weather. The

12 clouds are weather.

13 Q.. Well; are yo,u answering the question yes? The prayers

14 are religious?

15 A. I'm answering it by saying people are religious. The

16 things people do are religious. I was asked today to tell

17 the truth, ~hat was religious.

18 Q. All right, Doctor --

19 A. So I don't know \Vha t you mean. by reI ig ious in tha t

20 narrow sense.

21 Q. Are these prayers reI igi.ous in any sense of the word at

22' all?

23 They'~e not irreligious.

24 Q. Are they religious?

25 A. In a very limited sense that some people might choose to

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1 define them as religious. I would not choose to define them.

2 Q. You don't choose to define them as religious but some

3 people would define them as religious?

4 A. I am sure they ,would. 'Fa r me eating food is a relig ious

5 act. washing hands is a religious -act. A good Jew knows,

6 that.

7 Q. Tell me, Dbc~or, moving on to February 12, 1975, just to

8, pick up a date, again you say, we .ask for this In the name of

9 thy loving son, Christ our Lord. How does that -particular

10 phrase, A, deal wi~h the Judeo-Christian heritage, and Bf

11 wi th 't-he Amer ican reI ig ious Chr ist i an her i tage?

12 A. The reason I d idn I t pick up my prayer book to :hook at i t ~

13 because I had the feeling you were going to make a reference

14 to s-omething like that. And so 1'm not looking at the book.

15 But if I were to say, as David the ~reat King said, that does

16 not denigrate the'Christian heritage. It reflects the best

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17 of the Hebrew heritage, the Jewish' heritage. And 11m

18 . thankful for that. I think I am reflecting the best of the

19 Christian herita~e in u~i~g that phrase.

20 Q. I think you are too. Now the questlon is, isn't that a

21 Christian prayer?

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23

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25 -

That phrase comes out 'of the Christian tradition.

Q. That's right.' But if you look at the entire prayer you

cannot call that entirely a Christian prayer.

Q. Does it have anything to do with the Jewish religion?

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1 A. 'Parts of that prayer do.

2 Q. Would you'agree with the fact that the last sentence of

3 it re,ally adds a Christian flavor to it?

4 A. I would say that 'mong the many elements that. that

5 p.rayer reflect,s, that particular phrase ""hich you chose does

~ reflect the Christian heritage. However, if I give an ,}

7 invocation at a Rotary meeting and I ask for Jesus' blessing I

ra that doesn't mean that e~erything that's said and done t~ere,

9 and ~aten_and consummed and drunk there is a Christian

10 meeti ng •

11 Q. The prayer, though, becomes a Christian pra~eri though,

12 doesn't it?

13 A.) It has an ~lement6f the Christian heritage in it.

14 Q. You ar~ a Christian clergy man?

15 A. I personally ~egard.myself as not only a clergy man but

16 ~s a Christian.

17 Q. All right. You are aC~ristian and you are a Christian

18 clergy man?

19 A. I know 11m a clergy m~n. I hope I'm a Christian.

20 Q. I think the answer to the question is yes.

21 A. In many ways I'~ not a Christian. In many ways I!m not'

22, ' a Christian.,

23 Q. How are y,ou not a Christian?

24 A. Many thoughts, actions, deeds, that do not reflect the , '

25 Christian ideals.

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1 Q. Would you care ~o elaborate on that?

2 ~ A. I don't think of anything offhand. But I have not

3 always been the b~st person I coul~ be.

4 Q. /

Now, would you agree that these prayers -- first of all,

5 would you agree what you say beforehand is a prayer? /

6 A. There are many definitions of a ptayer. Now, I don't

7 know what you mean by a prayer.

8 Q. Let's talk about what you mean by a prayer,

9 A. If I wake up in the mornirig and see a glorious sunrise,

10 I say, oh, beautiful; that's a prayer. If I go to sleep at

11 night and just say, thanks for a good day; that's a prayer.

12 Q. Wha t about wha t you say to the Leg i sl ature befo re they

13 open up? Is that a prayer?

14 \ .

A. I would say that I strive to relate the Senators and

15 their helpers to th,e divine. And if that is a prayer r , then

16 I'm offering a prayer. ,

~7 Q. Okay. Would you agree that a fair statement, then l

18 would be that what you say prior to the opening of ea6h

19 session is, in fact, a prayer?

20 A. First of all, I'm not certain it's prior to the opening. )

21 I understand there's been some question about whether it 1 s

22 before it opens or after it opens. So I don't know what that

23 ' means. ,

Q. Why don't we just say whatever you say?

25 A. Whatever I say.

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1 Q. When you say on any day, particular day, March 7, 1975,

when you say f 0 Lord help us to see the world in tr,ue

3 perspective, et cetera~ et cetera.

4 A. uh-huh.

5 Q. We pray Thee r restore to us the far look and the /

, . 6, confident fai th.

7 A. Yes.

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Q. Would you agree that those words are, in fact,. a prayer?

A~ cThey are a prayer only if an individual Senator make~

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them a prayer. Otherwis7 . they are not anything more than

printed words on api ec:e of paper. They I re not a prayer at

12 all. Prayets only ari~e from the heart.

() 13 Q. How about for you?

14 A. For me it's a prayer"

15 Q. All right. So for YOUr when you say the.word~f they're

16 intended to be a prayer?

17 They're intended to capture the ima-gination of those

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Senators who wish to acknowledge the divine in their day's

dealings.

Q. All right. wnen you

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A. They're not even for me. Oh, no. I'm even going a step

beyond that. I'm not to inflict my convictions upon anyone in' I

23 the Statehouse. No, they are not a prayer.

o 24 \

Y9u see, my prayers are said when I'm all alone. away ,

25 f rom the, Sta tehouse. Or, perhaps" on some pI ace other than

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1 the floor. When 11m on the floor of the Legislature I am

2 merely an instrument of the divine which provides a few

3 seconds each morning during the c'ourse of which time th('ough

4 words that are said or silences that are given, individual

5 Senators may wish to pray.

6 But I do not pray~ I simplY g~ve them an opportunity by

7 using suggestions through my words or silences.

8 Q. I take it, then, on March .13, 1975 r when you gave a " ,

9 rather lengthy, I would call, a prayer, maybe.you don't, then

10 you concluded by saying, therefore, we praYr Almighty God,

11 , that, you 'will ccintinue so to renew these Senators wi th a

12 sense of humaneness and a sen~e of humor; you don't consider

13 that a prayer, when you say, therefore we pray?

. 14 A. No more. than I

15 Q. You don't really mean that?

16 A. Oh E yes, I mean it personally.

17 Q. You just don 1 t know vlhether the othe r

18 A. I led in ,the pledge of the allegiance at the memorial

19 service y.sterday~ I said, we pledge allegiance. How do I

20 know whether a soldier standing in front of me pledges

21 allegi~rice?

It's up to them to pledge allegiance. If they don't

23 ~ledge, it ain't pl~dged.

24 Q.

25 A.

Down on March17,l97~, five St. Patrick's days ago.

Uh-huh.

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I Q. When you say, have you ever wondered why we hold, we ,

2 fold our hands whEm we pray? May I suggest the reason: We

3 fold our hands when we pray. The right and the left of' us. I

I 4 'rhe best and the worst in us. Heaven and earth about us.

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Would you agree that that's kind of reI ig fous? ..

A. It is for the persons who fold their hands ano lift

I 7 theiihearts to God's. particulaily f6r the Irish men that

8 dqy.

9 Q. And then you say, our crosses and the cross. The cross

10 is capital i zed, all aware together 'when we fold our hands and

11 pray. From the folded hands from the heart within. From the ( .

12 God above, from the cross of Chiist: love - forgiveness -,

10 13 peace all bles.s together when we fold our hands and pray.

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A. That was st. Patrick's Day, wa~ it not?

Q. . It was. ,

16 That is indigenous to the Irish culture. That's an

17 Irish prayer.

18 Q. It's a Catholic prayer, isn1b it?

i9 A. Oh, I don't know that I'd say that. I have no

20 indication that-it was. By that you. mean Roman Catholic?

21 Q. I guess, so. Ho'w about Irish Catholic?

22 A. That's Roman Catholic. I would suspects that during the

23 last 15 years on most St. Patrick's Days I have not prayed,

24 but tha t some of the. Senato rs who ar e of the Roman Ca thol ic '

u 25 persuasion have asked that their clergy persons offer the

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1 prayer instead of me.

2 And I've always, without exception r whether the person

3 be of one persuas ion or another, consented y' wi thout fa i'lur,e I

4 in 15 years, to yi eld the floor fo r any r to any Senato r who

5 ~ishes their cl$rgy person to be represented on the floor on

6 any given d~y, at ani time theylve asked, without exception,

7 Q. Now, I guess I didnlt~et the answer t6 my questioh.

8 But was the'prayer -:--

9 A. Would you repe~t the question?

10 Q. Was the prayer ori March 17, 1975, Christian in nature?

11 A. ItJhich part ar!=! you speaking of? I was trying to reflect

12 sQmething of th~ Irish heritage for t~e sake 6f the Irish

13 Senators who were th~re. -Jus~ as I would for Senator Chambers

14 if he had something he :wanted reflected on a morning.

15 In fact, I flave, mor'e often than I suspect Senator

16 Chambe~s may realIze, striven to express something of his

17 feelings in my prayers or the -prayers that are offered for

18 the Senat~rs to use ~s their prayers.

19 Q. \

On March 19th, you talk about the season of Lent now

20 advancing towards Easter.

21 That's because most of the senators observe Lent and

22 Easter ~. I acknowledge that just 'as ,I would the Fourth 0 f'

23 July or Memorial Day or S,t. Patrick's Day.

24 Q. How about Passover?

25 Or Passover, for th~t matter. Yes.

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1 Q. Is there anything in these prayers --

2 A. As you know, Passover's a part of Lent.

3 Q. I know. Is there anything in these prayers that refl/ect I

4 Passover?

5 A~ There have been many things in the prayers. I can't say

6 any particular year when they did. But I -- yes.

7 Q. Would you point out s?mething for me?

8 A.' Well f here aga in, if you want me to start read ing the

9 prayer book I will.

10 Q. I think you can limit it to the'spring of the years,

11. , ') -

which only takes about -- Passover is about eight days.

12 A. Yes. But there's a preparation period.

13 Q. For Pqssover?

14 A. Among the ~ewish friends I have there is, yes. There's

15 an anticipation of it and a celebration of it and a

16 rememberance of it that's just beautiful. Uh-huh.

17 Q. Is there anything in the prayers that deal with Passover?

18 A. I haven't read this particular book, which goes back

19 (

five years. If ·,you want I I can take the time to read it.

20 Q. Well, I've just sort of been glancing (through March, I

21 suppose, if you read M~rch and' April, 1975, you'd find out,

22 we could. determine whether there was anything deal ing wi th

23 Passover in there.

24 A. Of coorse, one of the -- I'haven't looked yet, but I

25 know that one ~f the pro.blems, whether i,t be so-called Hqly I

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1 Week of the Christian heritage or Passover of the Hebrew

2 her i t'ag e I oftef;l the Legislature does not meet dur ing tha t

3 time. So you will find no specific references to many bf the

4 Holy Days of Christianity simply because they don't meet

5 during that time.

6 If you want to give me some dates I'll be glad to look

7 them up and read them for you.

Q. I thi I)k i fyou hit Easter each of those year Sf chances

9 are you'd probably hit Passov~r too.

10 A. I happened to open up'Ma~ch II, 1975. I'm not

11 acquainted, however; going back five years; as you\know,

12 that's a moveable feast like ~aster. It can pop up in Mardh,

13 pop up in ApriL

14 Q • rfh at! sri g h t.

15 A. I'm reading the first player I lo~ked at.

16 I go from Thy Spirit and whither shall I go from Thy presence,

17 ~md whither shall I flee from Thy Spirit? If I ascend up

18 into Heaven Thou art there; if I make my bed in. the grave,

19 behold Thou art theia; if I take the wings of the morning- and

20 dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, eve~ there shall Th~

21 hand lead me and Thy right hand shall hold me. If I say

22 surely the darkness shall cover me, even the night is 'become

23 light about me. The darkness hideth not from Tbee but the

24 night shineth as the day. . .,.

The darkness and the llght are

2~ both alike to Thee ..

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1 I have a son who has a very good friend in the Hebre~

2 fa i th and we worshipped in Lincoln this last year. And if , \

311m not mistaken, something either that ~r very akin to' that

4 was read in the Temple during Passover. That to me is of the

5 very heart of the Hebrew faith, that kind of a prayer.

6 Q. You dod't mention Passover specifically F thou9-h I do you?

7 A. I don't know that I men~ion Christmas either or Good

8 Friday.

9 Q. You do mention --

10 A. Or Maundy Thursday, for that matter.

11 Q. You do mention Easter,r don't you?

12 A. You have one of 15 years. I suspect in one year I

13 mention one thing and another year another thing so I can

14 demonstrate that I am eclectic.

15 Q. Well, let's take a look at 1979.

16 A~ I'm sorry we don't(ha~e all 15 years here. so we could

" 17 look r~presentatively of these.

18 Q. We tried to get them, Doctor, but they didn't have them.

19 A. They were not printed"

20 Q. They didn't h~ve them.

21 A. No, it's not that they didn't have them. It's that they

22 were not printed. I dould go into my file and perhaps bring

23 something out for you. But, you see, it's ohly been in

24 recent years that the Senators asked that these be printed

25 for their own use~.

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1 Q. Do I understand that you havej your files have copies· of

2 these prayers? .

3 A. Well, I hav~ prayer files, you know. And some of these

4 were used durin~ the Legislature, some of them would be used

5 for my.own personal use. But ~h~ylre not organized like this,

6 oh, no.

7 Q. In othe.r words, you don't go back to 1965 and know what

8 prayers that you gave?

9 A. 1 can't tell you what was offered any given day.

10 Q. Are these things written out in advance or were these

11 th~ngs that you just said extemporaneously?

12 They are both. You see, originally I was told that the I

• ! () 13 prayers were offered and they were for my own files use. No

14 one eise has any use for them. And then when Senator

15 Carpenter asked that the~ be recorded in the journal they

16 have, I won't say alwaysl but at least usually been recorded

17 in the journal since then.

18 However, if the afternoon or the night before the

19 Legislature meets I write out a prayer -- and the only way it

20 can be recorded in the journal is if I write it out and hand

21 \ it to the clerl<, or to somebody there who can include it in

22 the journal, I would say that at least half of the time, /

, 23 maybe three-fourths o~ the time~ the prayers are radically

24 altered because of what I see on television or read about

u 25 what has happened so that they can be more appropriate for

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1 the Senators. Often the prayer is derived from something.

2 that I hear on the floor 9f the Legislature when I arrive in

3 the mornin9~

4 Q. All right.

5 A. And th~se ar~ never printed in the journal. Be~ause

6 there's no facility for doing it.

7 Q. All right. To kind of sum up, would it be accurate to 7 /

8 state that your prayers are civil religious, in your opinion?

A. They part~keof the elements of the American civil

10 religion, if that's a fair ,phrase to use.

11 Q. Well, that's the phrase (

used. didn't it. rou I use

12 A. I don't like to use it because it's a mislead ing phrase.

() 13 Q. We want this to be your testimony and I want you to tell

14 me how you would descr:ibe these prayers. If you don't think

15 they' re'Christian, what are they?

;1.6 A. I didn't say they were unchristian.

17 Q. I didn't/s.ay they were unchristian .. I said are they

18 Christian?

I 19 A. ·1 would say they have elem~nts of the Judeo-Christian

20 . her i tage and they have el ements of Amer ican c iv i1 reI ig ion in

21 them.

22 Q... All right. Would you stay that they are religious in

23 n~ture?

A. They are if the S'enat017S choose to use them as such.

25 Q. Well, are they religious as far ~syou're concerned?

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1 You're the one ~hat's using the words. 1. am --

2 A. 11m ~he one using the words, oh, of ~ourse, 11m the one

3 using the words. But as far as 11m concerned r they are

4 religious only if the Senators choose to use them as such.

5 Q. Are they reI ig ious intents as far. as you I re concerned?

6 A. If by' religious you mean enabling the Senators to

7 contemplate the divine bef6re they begin their dayls d~ings,

8 I nope they would dotha;t.

9 Q. And they specifica~ly deal with, in your opinion" the

10 divine, which means, I assume, reference to God?

11 A. Referehce to the supreme being of the univer.se. ~owever

12 that may be understood or he may be understood Dr she m~y be

13 understand or they may be understood by any individual

14 S~nator.1

15 Q. Do the prayers basically refer to what we normally refer

16 to as G'od?

17 A. If . you heard the prayer you would assume that it would

18 refer to God as you normally understand him. I'f a person who

19 had no concepts of God at all .. I suspect that person would

20 refer tb wh~tever he thought the ultimate reality of the

21 universe was, or she.

Q. Would you continue giving the prayers if you weren t

23 . pa id?

24 A. Of course.

25 Q. That has nothing do with it as far as you are concerned?

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1 A. I never said that has nothing do with it as far as I'm

2 concerned. I was asked to offer prayers.' I was not told by

(3 anyhodyat any time about any compensation that would come of

4 any definite amount.'

• 5 Q. The question is, if you ,w~re no longer paid would you I

6 still continue being the Chaplain of the Legislature?

7 A., That would be in thi hands of the Legislature.

8 Q~ No. I'm asking you.

9 A. If the Legislature chose to ask me?

10 Q. Yes.

11 Yes.

12 Q. So that has nothirg to do with it as far as you're

13 concerned, tpe compensation has nothing to do with it?

14 A. That is not the reason why I offer these prayers.

Q. What is the reason that y06 offer the prayers?

16 A. I f~el that I'm serving the people of Nebraska by doing

17 so.

18 Q. Are you servfng thos~ people who do not follow the

19 JUdeo-:-Christ.fan tradition by doing'so also?

20 A. Oh, definitely. Definitely. I think that any Senator

-21 that's lifted closer to t,he divine during the course of a

22 moment in the morning is serving all the people in a better

23 way.

24, Q.' The question was f are you serving all these people? I , ,

25 think that's what you said.' That you\"ere serving' them.

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1 A. It's my illtent.

2 Q. You're'serving all the people of Nebraska?

3 A. I hopef~lly am.

4 Q. Even' those who don I t follow the Judeo-ehr istian doctr i ne?

5 A • IfsomeoDe does not believe ih the law of gravity and I

. 6 suggest .they not jump off a 10 story building~ I think 11m

7 serv l'ng the i r best interests. Whether they bel ieve in the

8 law of gravity or no.

9 I And I don't know that I'm any less effective or any more

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effective any more than you are as an attorney by being pai4

11 or not.

12 Q. We're not. talking about being paid right now. We've

13 passed that subj ect and now we I r,e' mov ing on to another one.

14 The subject we're moving on to ndw is are you ser~ing

f

15 the interests of tho~e Nebraskans who a~e neither Christians

16 nor Jews.'

17 A. Yes, definitely, vBry definitely.

18 Q. By offeri~9, 4P prayers that have a certain Christian

19 meaning to them?

20 . A. By offering up prayers that reflect the religious ,

21 proclivities of the people of Nebraska. ·1 don't use dumb

22 bells eveiy morning to exercise my muscles. But that doesn't

23 mean that I think Ernie Chambers is makin~ a mistake b~

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exercising. I think he is. He's making himself more

physic,ally fit and th,ereby helping the people of Nebraska who

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1 never exercise.

2 Q. You think that you're helping Senator Chambers by

3 del'ivering these prayers?

4 A. r would hope so.

5 Q., He doesn~t seem to think that you are helping him.

6 A. I remember as a child someone told me they were praying

7 for me and .1 didn't partic~larly appreciate that. But ip ·the

8 long run I see th~t they were r~ndering a service for me. ,

9 Q. So you feel that you are, would it be accurate to state

10 that you feel you are praying for Senator Chamb'ers?

11 A. I did not say that. I simply said tha.t there's a very

12 real possibility that the sourc~ of all realiiy, in which I

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13' suspect Senator Chambers believes"as you and I do might

14 becdme more acc~ssible to Senator Chamber~ because there is

15 ~n act of prayer day by day.

16 .r know that Sen~tor CHambers frequently draws on the ,

17 insights ~f the Hebrew Christian heritage. It'~ obvious from

18 his statements. And I think he himself would be the first to

19 admit that fact.

20 Q. ,Do you, feel that your prayers add a Judeo-Christian

21 flavor, then, to the Leg i slat ure f at least to the open Ing 0 f

22 the Legislature?

23 A.

24 Q.

25 A.

\

I'd say some parts of the prayers do, some parts do not. , Well, I sUppose yo~ can take anyfhing out'of context.

Uh-huh. Veryr~adily.

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1 Q. I don't want to do that.

2 A .• Nor do I.

3 Q. I just want to find out whether in you):' opinion th,ese

4 . prayers really are Jude'o-Christian in natu're.

5 A. There are many things in nature. They are sin.cere in

6 nature, I' 11 say that,.

Q. No one's doubting your s~,nceritYI Doctor. What we're

8 really trylng to establish is whether they're ,Judeo-Christian

9 prayers or whether they're just Christian prayers or whether

10 they'~e pray~rs at all. Th~i, seems to be a doubt in your

11 mind whether they're even prayers.

12 A. They're prayers only if the Senators choose to utilize . ,

13 them.

14 Q. Are they Judeo-Chr ist i an only if the Senato rs choose to

15 make they Judea-Christian?

16 A. I suspect if a Senator were Jewish they would become a

17 Jewish prayer; If they were Islamic they would become

18 Islamic. If they were Christian --,

19 Q. I 'take it then, I don't mean to bel abor the po int" but

20 you're not suggesting that a prayer that ends tn Jesus'name

21 can somehow become Jewish?

22 A. I!~ suggesting, 0 Lord if I make my bed in hell even

23 then Thou art there. That's Jewish. I think a Christian can

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use that and firid himself or herself closer to God.

Q. These are the prayers, at least the prayers ~hatyou

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1 have offered up, are at;. least religiously oriented, they'r~

2 not irreligious, would you go that far with me?

3 A. If I wer.e offer ing prayers before a Spanish speaking

4. Legislature I wo~ld do my best to learn Spanis~. I offer the

5 prayers ~efor,e ~n English speaking Legislature 50 they're

6 English. But so that they ~i9ht be flavored in such a way , .

7 b-hat they would have greater meaning for the Senators, I use /

8 those elements in their speech and thought patterns which I

9 tbink will be most helpful to them in communi~ating with, the

10 Oivine.

11 Q. And· that which YOUr those phrases, which you use, are

12 they Christian phrases?

13 'A. Some are i some are not"

14 Q. Would you agree that in your judgment most of the 49

15 Senator.s are Ch'ristian?

16 A. All I can say is that each year in the Lincoln newspaper!

17 and in the Omaha newspaper there is a brief biography of all

18 49 Senators. And if\ve may take those biographies at face

19 valuei then the newspapers teil me that a majority of the

20 S,nators are of the,Chiistian persuasion.

21 Q. 'Do you have any --

22 A. And the newspapers are not just making this up. I

23 suspect that's founded on what the Senators have told them.

24 Q. In the last session of the Legislature~ how many of the

25 Senators, in your judgment, were Christian?

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A. I've ma~e it a very specific point never to count.

Because that might point me in a certain direction and give

me a certain bias that would not be fair to those who ace not

of the majority persuasion. I have never counted. I do not

now know. I never have. Because I'm not offering pr~yers

because they are ChrIstian or Jewish or Muslim or atheist. ~

Q~ Did you ever ask, the rionchristian members of the

Leg i-slature whether references t6the Christian deity, to

Jesus, was offensive to them?

A. I have never gone to ,any Senator and said, is my pray~r ,

offensive? I have talked with Senators about the prayers.

And 'they have, through the nuances of speech and the look of

their~ace -,and so on, indicated that certain things are more

or less helpful. And I've tried to reflect these feelings in

my prayers.

MR. FRIEDMAN: Would you read the last

question back?

(Pertinent question read by the reporter",)

Q. (By Mr. Friedmari) Is the answer no? "

A. I may have, I don't recall. I may have, may very well

have. BecauSe I've ~poken about the r~ligious sensitivities

that peopl e have. Ai a m~atter of fac t i many of the pa rts of

my prayers reflect the religious con~iciions of the Senators.

Because they've to,ld me 'certain things that become a part of

my prayers. And some of the 'thi ngs ,they I ve told me hav~

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1 nothing to do with prayer or the Judeo-Christian heritage but

2 simply their own convictions abo~t the good of the people or

3 the workings of the Legislature.

4 Q. April 30, 1975, you closed by saying, we ask this in the

5 name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

6 A. That I S for those wh.o regard him as their Lord.

7 Q. You wereaddr.~ssing the Legisla'ture at that time, were

8 you not?

9 A. Oh, perhaps I was addressing deity.

10 You were delivering this, whatever you call it, prayer,

11 prior to the, at the beginning of the legislative session on

12 April 30, 1975.

13 A. All right.

14 Q. When you say our Lord, who besides you are you referring'

15 to?

16 ;A, • Any who choose God as the ~ r God and the i r Lo rd. The

17 word- Lord is something which appears in all the great ,

18 religions of the world. ~ '.

19 Q. This was the Lord Jesus Christ.

20 A. Some choose to call him the Lord, others cal+ed him the

21 Lor~ God Jehovah. But the word Lord is common to them all.

22 Q .•

23 A.

24 Q.

25. A.

But what you were referring to was Lord Jesus Christ. ,

Yes.

Would you consider that Christian in nature?

That was an element of the Christian faith in that \

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1 prayer.

2 Q. You started out with the fi rst sentence, you say, 0 God,

3 Our Father, may these Thy servants commuri icate truth anti 1 i fe

4 as did Jesus Christ Our Lord.

5 A. Uh-huh.

6 Q. And you open up the prayer' wi th the referenc.e to Jesus

7 Christ and you close it some, 13., IS, 20 sentences, lines

8 later.

A. Uh-huh.

10 Q. Wouldn't you agree that that particular prayer was

11 Christian in nature?

12 A • Th,at had Christian ~lement::s, to be sure.

13 Q. Opened Christian, closed Christian?

.~4 A. Uh-huh. I'm not lc;>oking at it. I don't know \vhat's in

15 between.

16 Q. Why don't you look at it?

17 A. What's tqe date again?

18 Q.Page 23,1975. April 30, 1975.

19 A. April 30th?

20 Q. Yeah.

21 A. lId say it's got, I don't know r eight or 10 words that

22 could be regarded, out of, 1 don't know, what are there, 20,.

23 25 lines, as ~ords referring to'Christian values. The rest

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of them are values, I suspect, that would be held by most

people walking down 9th Street he.re l of a' good mind and a

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1 high purpose. Ilm talking about patience., human need f

2 compassion toward the weak. That's as much out of an~

3 religion I know. ,

4 Q. You do admit that these are religious r that this

5 particular ~rayer is religious in nature?

6 A. There are religious words in it.

7 - Q. What·do you mean by r~ligion?-

8. A. Religion is whateve~ any person, any Senator! chooses to

9 regard as religious.

10 Q. What do you mean by it?

11 A; Religious is anything that draws me clos~r t~ the divine.

12 A painting, a sun set, a cloud, a smile, a flag, a pledge of

13 allegiance. [But, for other people these things may not be

14 religious.

15 MR. FRIEDro1AN: I bel ieve tha t s al,l the

16 questions I have, Doctor Palmer.

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20 too.

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23 things.

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THE vHTNESS:. Thank you very much.

MR. CRONK: I just have a couple.

MR~ FRIEDMAN: He has a right to ask questions

THE WITNESS: By all means.

MR. CRONK: I've got to clear up a c60ple of

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1 CROSS-EXAMINATION

2 BY MR. CRONK:

3 Q. I wdnder if you might explain, as you perqeive it,. on

4 the basis bf whatyaur experience has been, what the

, 5 expectations have been e~plained to you t6 be, if there have

& been an1, about what yourfundtion as Legislative Chaplain is?

7 Desc.ribe your functi.9n~ your role.

8 A. I ~uspect ,that my best unqeistanding of that, in' a

9 narrower'sense r is that I was told by the persO'ns.who made

10 t~e decision and yoted on me initially, tha.t I was to offer a

11 pr~yir at the beginning of each day's sessiQn~ I think that

12 was the intent of those who asked me.

13 Q. Okay. I want to try and come at this from a little bit

14 different angle and maybe it will help round out the )

15 diff'iculty in the characterizat,ion, which is what we have

16 been through. What would you say the purpose I what purpose /

17 are you trying to acco~plish? What is your mission in ,

18 del iver ing every morn i ng of the Leg i slature that thing {

19 whateve.r it is, we "might call it?

20 A. I supp6se my pur~ose is to provide an opportunity for . '\ .

21, Senators to be drawn closer to their understanding of God as,

22 they unde'rstand God. In o;.d~r that the divine wisdom might

23 be theirs as they conduct their business for the day.

24 ,Q. Is there a I ink between the praye,rthat is given and the

25 Legislators functioning as Legislators later that ftay? I

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mean is there a causal --

A. I see a relationship, I see.a relationshi~ between the

\ two. I would hope that a decision made or a prayer offered

I by a Senator in the morning might car~y throughout the day in

their making a decision thatwould be more in line with their

best selves. /

Q. What does the label invocation mean to you as compared

to prayer?

A. The word irivocatiol1, I suspect, is one of these words

sometimes regarded as religious in which people assume they

may invoke God's presence a~ a meeting. The truth of the

matter is God's already there. So ~hat they're really

invoking is their perception of the divine at that meeting.

Q. Okay. For what it is that' you are do ing ~very morning,

is there any distinctiofi that you feel is meaningful between .) .

labeling that as a prayer or an invoca~ion?

A. I would be just as 'happy to call ita prayer ,as an

invocation.

Q~ Okay. So there is no --

A. No.

I Q. -- meaningful distinction? I believe you mentioned

before, and I just want to clarify this, that there have been

occasions in the past throughout your tenure as Chaplain, to

yield the floor to other clergy persons?

A. Whenever and every-time I'm asked to do so.

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Q. Do you have any idea about, in a typical year, how many

times tha~ might happen?

A. I would suspect that it has happened less, recentl~,

simply because prevlous,ly' I ,went out and solicited people to

offer prayers. Anybody regarded as a person of religious

qualifi~ation.

Q. ~ou had a higher return Iflhen you did that?

A. I had a higher ~eturn., And the reason the teturn is not

so h,igh, is they found 'out" I found they thought they were

doing a favor for me when they w~re doing this. I was not

trying to ask them to do a favor for me. I was trying to ~et

a more complete representation of the various religious

beliefs of the entlre L~gislature. ,

The average clergy person, whatever, is a very busy

person. And they could find it as an intrusion on their time. /

The general assumption was it was a real sacrifice for them

to ~ome,'not just a minute or two, driving to the place, \

finding a parking place, preparing it. And so I realized it

was an i~position on th~ir time.

Q .' Ha'sthere been some reluctance I when approached, on the ! '

part of, other clergy persons to fill in?

A. ,Yes. Genuine 'reluctance, particularly if I asked them

for the second time. And in all frankness, most clergy

persons do not live in Lincoln who represent these Senators. I

And I would, say more often than not when 1- m aS,ked by a

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Senator, quite often Omaha Senators but others too, may my.

priest. my rabbi, my ministers, wh~t~ver, give a prayer on

such and ,such a day? I always say yes. And I would say most

of the time they don~~ come because something com~s up in

- the ir sclYedule. It means a r'eal commi tment of gasol ine to

come here today. r,

Q. In view of what you just mentioned or just stated to be

the purpose or what it is that your role is in delivering the

morning prayer or in\1ocation r 'fs r at all involved in that

purpose the promotion oradvanc~ment of any particular

religion, any particular s~ct or religion generally versus

nonreligion?

A. Never. That has not been my intention nor has it ever

been the result. In 15 years of serving as a Chaplain no

Senator has ever joined Westminster Church. Nor haver ever

asked or would I ever have thought of anyone to do so. I

think that would be an intrusion upon their personal Uves.

As a result, however, I have b~en asked to speak at Roman

Catholic and, at Jewish services of worship that I ~ould not

I have otherwi se, i ncl ud ing preach ing in a Jewish Temple tha t I

would riot have been otharwise.

Q. Okay. I'just want one more time again, and not to

, belabor the point, this is the last tfme ~e we"ll mention it.

I wonder if you just might,; r 1m going to ask you to

I

characterize the nature of the content and its intended

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purpose in your morn ing of fer ings be fore the Leg isla ture 1 j n

your own words.

A. I've tried to draw upon the best that I know in th'e

·Judeo-Christian tradition and the religious sensitivities of

the Senators wh~ are present, as well as in their common

thinking, and general values ~ those concepts, those wo rds r

those phrases., those mean~ngs, which would give a heal thy

. flavor to their being b,rought cl.oser· to an understanding of

. what God may want them to do thatdayo

MR. CRONK: Okay. That's all I have.

MR. FRIEDMAN: want to ask him about s'ignature?

He has a right to waive his signature.,

MR. CRONK: We talked about that and I did not

. mention this to you. If you would like, you have the right

,

the go ahead an~ view the transcription and check it over

before it is certified, and i~ there's any particular remark !

that. didn't convey -\vhat you we.re trying to relate, you have

the opportunity to pencil those in. You can waive that if you , .'

wiSh.

'I'HE WITNESS: Did you have any sugges,tion? J

MR. CRONK: Really whatever you wish. I don't.

THE WITNESS: I have no feeling whatsoever

about tnat. I spoke out of my heart in a moment and I see no

reason why I need to g? back ~nd check it.

(Whereupon ,3: 22 P .. m. , deposition concluded.)

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STATE OF NEBRASKA

COUNTY OF LANCASTER

C-E-R-T-t-F-I-C-A~T-E

55.

~. -

I, Gary d. Latimer, be~eral Notary Public in and for I.

the Sta'te of Nebraska I do hereby certi fy that ROBERT PALMER

was by' me duly sworn to testify the truth, the whole

truth and nothing but the truth, and that the deposition

by him as above set forth was -reduced to writing by me.

That the wi thin and forego ing deposition was taken by

.me at the time and place herein specified and in accord'ance

with the within stipulations; \ the reading and signins of

the witness to his deposition having been waived.

That I am not counsel, attorneYr or relative of either

party or otherwise interested in the event of this suit.

IN TESTIMONY WHEREOF, I have placed my han~ and

notar ial seal this cJSMday of June I 1930.

h (l iZ:L-__ . ____ .LJ~-.A~-.,-- .. ~: '--"-

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1982