Yesterday, 07:25 PM

icewolf64

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Quote:

Originally Posted by icewolf64

ISA is pretty cool, I wrote them to ask if there was a Swiss made version of the ISA 8176/2050. I wrote the e-

mail to them last night and received a response today it is as follows

Yes, there is a SWISS MADE version for movement 8176.

Claude RECEVEUR

Sales and Marketing Director

Sorry if this was not real clear but from the e-mail that I received the two movements in my watch are not swiss

movements but that ISA does make a swiss version of this movement.

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#352

Yesterday, 07:28 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Argabright

Any purchaser of a watch improperly marked SWISS would have standing for such a claim...

They could file as an individual without a doubt, but no class action can be filed by anyone until a court

certifies the class beforehand.

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#353

Yesterday, 07:30 PM

chitown

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If it says Swiss and it isn't Swiss Made should be fraud period. At the very least fales advertising and

something should be done. Or more MISTAKES WILL ACCIDENTLY BE MADE. BS

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#354

Yesterday, 07:30 PM

timeman

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I had a feeling this was going to happen. The ShopNBC video of Eyal saying the Invicta Quinotaur in question

J176920 was "ALL SWISS" is no longer there. It was removed by ShopNBC. Check for yourself.

http://www.shopnbc.com/PRODUCT/?trac...h-_-family-_-N

I was going to ask someone then to YouTube it in my original post #172 but didn't. What other evidence is

going to disappear?

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#355

Yesterday, 07:33 PM

Flyback Senior

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Quote:

Originally Posted by timeman

I had a feeling this was going to happen. The ShopNBC video of Eyal saying the Invicta Quinotaur in

question J176920 was "ALL SWISS" is no longer there. It was removed by ShopNBC. Check for yourself.

http://www.shopnbc.com/PRODUCT/?trac...h-_-family-_-N

I was going to ask someone then to YouTube it in my original post #172 but didn't. What other evidence is

going to disappear?

The whatever number of thousands of Chinese movements in Invicta watches labeled Swiss won't disappear.

That's for sure.

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#356

Yesterday, 07:34 PM

Kahuna Cowboy

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Quote:

Originally Posted by MREXE

Kahuana!!!! dude! you are correct too!!! youve just won my phoney "part swiss, part cow pucky" russian

""jiver"""........ok, I bought two.........purple and burnt burnt orange....luv 'em

Really? I won a Russian inspired designed watch labeled "Swiss" that is made in China and sold in the USA?

Those watches should earn some frequent flyer miles.

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#357

Yesterday, 07:34 PM

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No responses yet, huh? I can't wait to hear

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#358

Yesterday, 07:36 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by timeman

I had a feeling this was going to happen. The ShopNBC video of Eyal saying the Invicta Quinotaur in

question J176920 was "ALL SWISS" is no longer there. It was removed by ShopNBC. Check for yourself.

http://www.shopnbc.com/PRODUCT/?trac...h-_-family-_-N

I was going to ask someone then to YouTube it in my original post #172 but didn't. What other evidence is

going to disappear?

Was that the statement from ShopNBC that you were waiting for?

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#359

Yesterday, 07:36 PM

icewolf64

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Quote:

Originally Posted by timeman

I had a feeling this was going to happen. The ShopNBC video of Eyal saying the Invicta Quinotaur in

question J176920 was "ALL SWISS" is no longer there. It was removed by ShopNBC. Check for yourself.

http://www.shopnbc.com/PRODUCT/?trac...h-_-family-_-N

I was going to ask someone then to YouTube it in my original post #172 but didn't. What other evidence is

going to disappear?

I figured that would happen too, but this means that this thread has been seen by their eyes.

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#360

Yesterday, 07:37 PM

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Does Invicta claim that their "Swiss" watches are the same as "Swiss Made" watches?

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilco

Unfortunately, with Michael being the "Technical Brand Manager" there is some basis for Michael knowing

a little more than just what he is being "told" by Invicta.

When I bought up that Michael was knowledgable but not really a super technical saavy/watch maker trained

technical expert....Michael seemed to get sort of miffed at my observation in the following reply in the

following thread: http://watchgeeks.net/showthread.php...10#post1619710 (DD Speedway -Just

wondering Where is Eyal and Mike ?)

"...Well sir...I will tell you this. If you care to call my "technical chops" into question, then you can contact

two of my good friends, who happen to be my competitors, into this.

Am I am watch maker? No. I am not. Never claimed to be. However, if you want to question my technical

knowledge, then do me a favor...contact two of my competitors who happen to know me on a personal level

and know the depth and effort that I put into every show that I do and every watch that I present...that would

be Larry Magen with SO and Wing Liang with Android. I could add more to the list, but my two competitors

and friends will suffice. Other than that, I am done with this thread. "

In reality, Michael cannot have it both ways depending on how the wind blows.

When it gets hot in the kitchen, Michael seems to get very defensive bordering on abrasive. Yet, When there

are questions such as in this thread of a technical nature....why no "technical" reply on a technical question

of manufacturing if he has such "technical chops" on Invicta products?

And, I am not bashing the job Michael does nor the knowledge which Michael possesses on Invicta products

just as I was not bashing him in the previous thread (I was actually defending him in reference to not being

expected to know the technical reason why the DD Speedways were failing). At which point Michael replies

that his "technical chops" are not to be questioned. Ok, so be it from the experts mouth.

So, again, we have an issue that requires some knowledge which to me would be the kind of issue a

"Technical Expert" or "Brand Manager" might be expected to know or at least follow up on and respond to.

This time it is not a trouble shooting kind of mechanical solution to the problems with the DD Speedways

which I didnt expect Michael to be knowledgable about in the first place. This time it is just a question on the

manufacturing practices of Invicta in their "swiss" and "Swiss Made" timepieces. Fairly simple question, isnt

it?

And, now, we get a response that "I don't open the watches and I don't work on the watches. I can only

present the information that I have been given."

What about the "technical chops" and how about a "I will get an answer for you on this" in this thread which

would be nice?

Wilco, I agree with you 100%. You asked Michael a simple question that deserves a simple answer. Yes or no.

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#361

Yesterday, 07:38 PM

timeman

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyback

The whatever number of thousands of Chinese movements in Invicta watches labeled Swiss won't disappear.

That's for sure.

The same thing was done by Nixon. He tried a cover-up, and it was the cover-up that destroyed him. If he just

came clean and told the truth he would have finished out his term. We need a Deep Throat informant to get to

the bottom of this.

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#362

Yesterday, 07:44 PM

timeman

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Time Bandit

It was there this morning, I checked.

I was trying to save it, but the app that I use (Flashgot) won't save the flash movies from Shopnbc.

I was going to try to get another app before it's disappearance.

Darnit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was going to PM you to do it, knowing your computer ability.

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#363

Yesterday, 07:45 PM

icewolf64

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Maybe Shopnbc is going through all there video's to make sure of no new discoveries. I could figure out how to

save it before it disappeared.

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#364

Yesterday, 07:45 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by timeman

The same thing was done by Nixon. He tried a cover-up, and it was the cover-up that destroyed him. If he just

came clean and told the truth he would have finished out his term. We need a Deep Throat informant to get to

the bottom of this.

I can already see it... Eyal waving tearfully as he boards a giant yellow helicopter to fly off into the sunset...

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#365

Yesterday, 07:52 PM

timeman

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Why can't they just give us the truth, so we all can move on?

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#366

Yesterday, 07:55 PM

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The new Reserve SAS Mid-size just says "SWISS", 'ABOVE' the 6:00 hour

marker.......hmmmmmmmmmm.......I wonder if they put a chineese Ronda 515.24H movement in it.....This is

the first SAS i've seen that doesn't say "Swiss Made" at the 6:00 position.....

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#367

Yesterday, 07:58 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by GeorgeTheWatchGuy

This thread will remain open...

Thank you, George.

I've learned alot about watches since I joined WG, and am learning more every day.

I don't understand why anyone would want to hinder seeking the truth.

As has been stated all we're asking for is a reponse, from the top, to this

thread. We, as loyal buyers of Invicta, deserve no less. If we eventually

receive the response, I think we are all capable of determining if it is a whitewash. Many of us were born at

night, but not last night.

THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE!!!

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#368

Yesterday, 08:06 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by KMC1212

The new Reserve SAS Mid-size just says "SWISS" above the 6:00 hour marker.......hmmmmmmmmmm.......I

wonder if they put a chineese Ronda 515 42H movement in it.....This is the first SAS i've seen that doesn't say

"Swiss Made" at the 6:00 position.....

No mention by Mike or Tim about it's origin...

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#369

Yesterday, 08:06 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by KMC1212

The new Reserve SAS Mid-size just says "SWISS" above the 6:00 hour marker.......hmmmmmmmmmm.......I

wonder if they put a chineese Ronda 515 42H movement in it.....This is the first SAS i've seen that doesn't say

"Swiss Made" at the 6:00 position.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argabright

No mention by Mike or Tim about it's origin...

I know where I'd put my money on this bet.

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#370

Yesterday, 08:07 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by timeman

I had a feeling this was going to happen. The ShopNBC video of Eyal saying the Invicta Quinotaur in

question J176920 was "ALL SWISS" is no longer there. It was removed by ShopNBC. Check for yourself.

http://www.shopnbc.com/PRODUCT/?trac...h-_-family-_-N

I was going to ask someone then to YouTube it in my original post #172 but didn't. What other evidence is

going to disappear?

They don't remove video's just because an item is sold out.

This video was removed for other reasons.

I watched the video this morning.

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#371

Yesterday, 08:14 PM

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I recorded the video before it dissapeared.

Quote:

Originally Posted by icewolf64

I figured that would happen too, but this means that this thread has been seen by their eyes.

That's OK, I recorded it for educational purposes.

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#372

Yesterday, 08:16 PM

kless13

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Not to Worry

Quote:

Originally Posted by timeman

I had a feeling this was going to happen. The ShopNBC video of Eyal saying the Invicta Quinotaur in

question J176920 was "ALL SWISS" is no longer there. It was removed by ShopNBC. Check for yourself.

http://www.shopnbc.com/PRODUCT/?trac...h-_-family-_-N

I was going to ask someone then to YouTube it in my original post #172 but didn't. What other evidence is

going to disappear?

Not to worry, I have a recording.

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#373

Yesterday, 08:44 PM

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Wow, not only are they ignoring this thread, they are now trying to cover it up!

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#374

Yesterday, 09:20 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by wilco

Unfortunately, with Michael being the "Technical Brand Manager" there is some basis for Michael knowing

a little more than just what he is being "told" by Invicta.

When I bought up that Michael was knowledgable but not really a super technical saavy/watch maker trained

technical expert....Michael seemed to get sort of miffed at my observation in the following reply in the

following thread: http://watchgeeks.net/showthread.php...10#post1619710 (DD Speedway -Just

wondering Where is Eyal and Mike ?)

"...Well sir...I will tell you this. If you care to call my "technical chops" into question, then you can contact

two of my good friends, who happen to be my competitors, into this.

Am I am watch maker? No. I am not. Never claimed to be. However, if you want to question my technical

knowledge, then do me a favor...contact two of my competitors who happen to know me on a personal level

and know the depth and effort that I put into every show that I do and every watch that I present...that would

be Larry Magen with SO and Wing Liang with Android. I could add more to the list, but my two competitors

and friends will suffice. Other than that, I am done with this thread. "

In reality, Michael cannot have it both ways depending on how the wind blows.

When it gets hot in the kitchen, Michael seems to get very defensive bordering on abrasive. Yet, When there

are questions such as in this thread of a technical nature....why no "technical" reply on a technical question

of manufacturing if he has such "technical chops" on Invicta products?

And, I am not bashing the job Michael does nor the knowledge which Michael possesses on Invicta products

just as I was not bashing him in the previous thread (I was actually defending him in reference to not being

expected to know the technical reason why the DD Speedways were failing). At which point Michael replies

that his "technical chops" are not to be questioned. Ok, so be it from the experts mouth.

So, again, we have an issue that requires some knowledge which to me would be the kind of issue a

"Technical Expert" or "Brand Manager" might be expected to know or at least follow up on and respond to.

This time it is not a trouble shooting kind of mechanical solution to the problems with the DD Speedways

which I didnt expect Michael to be knowledgable about in the first place. This time it is just a question on the

manufacturing practices of Invicta in their "swiss" and "Swiss Made" timepieces. Fairly simple question, isnt

it?

And, now, we get a response that "I don't open the watches and I don't work on the watches. I can only

present the information that I have been given."

What about the "technical chops" and how about a "I will get an answer for you on this" in this thread which

would be nice?

Extremely well stated.

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#375

Yesterday, 09:52 PM

Evil Empire

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Just tell the truth

I would be happy if they would just tell the truth ,and stop saying swiss made and swiss mean the same thing

every time they say it it pushes me further away from the reserve watches im normally buying.

Today, 02:19 AM

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I wasn't able to watch all of the Invicta shows last night. The Invicta Reserve Mid-Size Specialty Subaqua Swiss

GMT Stainless Steel Watch - J179565 was presented. As far as I know, this is the first Invicta "Reserve" that

doesn't have "Swiss Made" at the 6 o'clock hour marker, but only 'Swiss." Was there any mention if this watch

was "Swiss Made" and any discussion about the Swiss movement?

The movement in this watch is the Ronda 515.24H and is produced in two versions, one "Swiss Made" the other

"Swiss Parts." Could it be this "Reserve" Invicta has the "Swiss Parts" movement, so the reason for not putting

"Swiss Made" on the dial? It always was mentioned that the "Reserve" line were all "Swiss Made." Could it be

this is no longer the case?

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#377

Today, 03:12 AM

emathieu

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Wow. Removing the video discussed but no one posting anything in this thread says a lot in my opinion.

Of course, there are still many other videos still on ShopNBC where watches labeled simply as "Swiss" are

described as "Swiss Made" - and I'm willing to bet that as we begin popping open these other "Swiss" labeled

pieces we'll find that they also have Chinese movements... I just took a quick look, and found three videos

where it is explicitly stated that these pieces are "Swiss Made" - including another RD where "Swiss" is at the 3

o'clock position. It is definitely being used as a selling point, otherwise it wouldn't be mentioned as often as it

is.

Someone (preferably Eyal) really needs to step in and attempt to explain this situation. Although I really don't

know what explanation he can have other than they "accidentally" misrepresented the origins of these watches.

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#378

Today, 04:21 AM

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So what do you want Invicta to do? My guess even it they come out and say "Swiss" means "Swiss made", some of you would not believe it anyway. So why bother. This has turned into one of those just keep piling it on kinda thread. If you don't feel the Swiss means Swiss made....and it bothers you this much, just don't buy the product. I am waiting for someone to post "Getta a rope......." __________________

Hey, does anyone have the time?

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#379

Today, 04:45 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by StephenC

So what do you want Invicta to do? My guess even it they come out and say "Swiss" means "Swiss made", some of you would not believe it anyway. So why bother. This has turned into one of those just keep piling it on kinda thread. If you don't feel the Swiss means Swiss made....and it bothers you this much, just don't buy the product. I am waiting for someone to post "Getta a rope......."

Did you read the thread?...or even look at the pictures? Invicta has said (in this thread) Swiss equals Swiss

Made. The pictures have China movements in Swiss watches.

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#380

Today, 04:53 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bigjimzlll

Did you read the thread?...or even look at the pictures? Invicta has said (in this thread) Swiss equals Swiss

Made. The pictures have China movements in Swiss watches.

Like I said, If it really bothers you all this much just don't buy the product. I sould not have posted in this thread....bad judgement call on my part....sorry... __________________

Hey, does anyone have the time?

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#381

Today, 04:54 AM

emathieu

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Quote:

Originally Posted by StephenC

So what do you want Invicta to do? My guess even it they come out and say "Swiss" means "Swiss made", some of you would not believe it anyway. So why bother. This has turned into one of those just keep piling it on kinda thread. If you don't feel the Swiss means Swiss made....and it bothers you this much, just don't buy the product. I am waiting for someone to post "Getta a rope......."

Please read the whole thread before posting responses - it's a best practice anyway, but really vital on these 10+

page threads. This is not a "piling it on" thread - the issue is that Invicta has said that, but the reality is that a

watch labeled "Swiss" has a Chinese movement. Look at the pics...

Everyone who has spent a lot of money on Invicta timepieces wants an explanation as to how something like

this can happen.

As for just not buying the product, the problem is that people already have purchased them...

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#382

Today, 05:08 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by timeman

I wasn't able to watch all of the Invicta shows last night. The Invicta Reserve Mid-Size Specialty Subaqua

Swiss GMT Stainless Steel Watch - J179565 was presented. As far as I know, this is the first Invicta

"Reserve" that doesn't have "Swiss Made" at the 6 o'clock hour marker, but only 'Swiss." Was there any

mention if this watch was "Swiss Made" and any discussion about the Swiss movement?

The movement in this watch is the Ronda 515.24H and is produced in two versions, one "Swiss Made" the

other "Swiss Parts." Could it be this "Reserve" Invicta has the "Swiss Parts" movement, so the reason for not

putting "Swiss Made" on the dial? It always was mentioned that the "Reserve" line were all "Swiss Made."

Could it be this is no longer the case?

I do not think those watches are listed in there Reserve Line catalog and the model numbers do not come up in

there search feature either. The model numbers have been used to designate there Reserve Signature Collection

that was being sold on Amazon in the past.

Take it for what its worth but if ya likes it gets it but if your looking for a guarantee its "Swiss Made" I would

have some concerns about that.

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#383

Today, 05:33 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by meijin

...snip... I can only present the information that I have been given. However, when I believe this information

to be wrong, I will state as much. Some may not like that, but it is the only fair and honorable way that I

know to do things....snip...

Fair enough.

Do you still believe Invicta follows the Swiss Federation guidelines for the watches they produce that are

marked Swiss?

I noticed you had time to post a lenghthy statement in the thread were folks were praising you.

What about this one?

You say some may not like it if you tell the truth but it is the honorable thing to do. Does the "some" include

Eyal Lalo?

We want to hear from you. You have referred to people in the past who brought this issue up as crazy

conspiracy theorists. I understand you have a job you want to keep but at the least you owe us an apology.

I say again I have an Invicta watch marked Swiss on the dial with a Swiss Parts movement.

D

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#384

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My guess is the Swiss Federation would not accept Invicta as a member due to these type of stunts. What an

incredibly interesting and informative thread this has become, it would be a total disgrace to close it. I guess

20k + Watchgeeks are seeing that you get what you pay for and as far as Invicta is concerned $100 watch

marked Swiss is not equal to a $300 watch marked Swiss Made. Doesn't this bring the "reserve" line's hand

built all swiss made claims into question?

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#385

Today, 06:02 AM

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Alright now ... lets not be a lynch mob.

You present as to what you are told to present and present it as you are told to present it. You take it as to how

it is given to you. Unless he physically opened the cases to look and see it is what it is how would he know.

Yes he might question it, yes he might think differently but he does what he is told to do and does it how he is

told to do it ... so why are some trying to lynch Mr Davis or even Mr Skelton in this matter?

It is Eyal Lalo who really needs to answer the questions at hand or at least that is who I thought made the

decisions at Invicta Watch or has something changed. Nobody can speak for him and if he asks for somebody

to speak for him regarding the questions at hand I would hope they respectfully say no and do not allow

themselves to be put into the middle of this. Yes Mike could speak for Invicta in this matter and if Eyal tells

him to than I am sure he will but currently I honestly do not think he has been given the green light to speak for

Invicta and is smarter than you realize by keeping his nose out of this topic at this time.

So lets not be a lynch mob on this. If you purchase a watch and think it is not what you think it was presented

as open it and if its not what it was than send it back to ShopNBC and tell them it was not what they sold it as.

If this happens enough times than ShopNBC will begin to also question what your questioning and get to the

bottom of this as well but lets NOT turn into a lynch mob looking for blood when all you want is answers to the

questions.

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#386

Today, 06:29 AM

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edited double post. D

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#387

Today, 06:31 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by X-James

Alright now ... lets not be a lynch mob.

...snip...lets NOT turn into a lynch mob looking for blood when all you want is answers to the questions.

Lynch mob? Don't be so dramatic. We are just waiting for an explanation.

Michael Davis is an authorized spokesperson for Invicta.

He and JSkelton have said repeatedly said over the years that when Invicta puts Swiss on a watch it meets the

Swiss Federation guidelines for a Swiss Made watch. Swiss = Swiss Made, nuff said is how I saw it put on

more than one occassion.

They even took a step farther and questioned the sanity of those who expressed doubt in their claims.

Now their claim that with Invicta Swiss=Swiss Made has been blown out of the water.

Michael Davis is a grown man he will do just fine without you defending him.

D

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#388

Today, 06:51 AM

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This is all quite interesting in a very negative way. I'm wearing one of my two Venom's purchased from

Amazon that says only SWISS at 6:00. I was always led to believe that SWISS does equal SWISS MADE. Are

these primarily Chinese watches? Sounds like it. Would I have paid $385 per watch if I knew they were not

SWISS MADE, no I would not have. I would have purchased one of the many other Venom models available

that do say SWISS MADE. I can see why everyone is so upset, I know I am.

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#389

Today, 06:54 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DIAMANTE

Michael Davis is a grown man he will do just fine without you defending him.D

I am not defending him, not at all. He and Mr Skelton made some bold statements in regards to this topic but

unless they actually popped open cases they were just going by what they were told and what they believe as

well.

I just think that your kind of demands in wanting them to step forward and answer for the crimes(?) there being

accused/convicted of ... is kind of like a lynch mob mentality way of demanding answers.

Trust me I'm not defending them and I would like to see them speak on this topic as well but they are not the

ones that caused the questions to be asked in the first place.

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#390

Today, 06:55 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by StephenC

So what do you want Invicta to do? My guess even it they come out and say "Swiss" means "Swiss made", some of you would not believe it anyway. So why bother. This has turned into one of those just keep piling it on kinda thread. If you don't feel the Swiss means Swiss made....and it bothers you this much, just don't buy the product. I am waiting for someone to post "Getta a rope......."

Really? Thanks for the sage like advice there!

Tell me Stephen, what about all of us who have hundreds and thousands of dollars worth of these "Swiss =

Swiss Made" watches that are packing cheap dime store Chinese movements? You know, those of us who have

got taken and want an explanation?

So in your mind we are owed nothing? Just let it go huh? Not going to happen.

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#391

Today, 06:57 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by sandman20

This is all quite interesting in a very negative way. I'm wearing one of my two Venom's purchased from

Amazon that says only SWISS at 6:00. I was always led to believe that SWISS does equal SWISS MADE. Are

these primarily Chinese watches? Sounds like it. Would I have paid $385 per watch if I knew they were not

SWISS MADE, no I would not have. I would have purchased one of the many other Venom models available

that do say SWISS MADE. I can see why everyone is so upset, I know I am.

It would be interesting to know what exactly is in that Venom. What is the model number shown on the

caseback and does it say "Reserve Signature Collection" on the caseback as well?

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#392

Today, 07:03 AM

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On the back of the watch it says INVICTA RESERVE in the middle and RESERVE COLLECTION at the

bottom. The model # is F0003. I thought all Reserve's (other than the Lupah) had to be SWISS MADE. So

maybe it is, who knows?

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#393

Today, 07:06 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Kahuna Cowboy

Really? Thanks for the sage like advice there!

Tell me Stephen, what about all of us who have hundreds and thousands of dollars worth of these "Swiss =

Swiss Made" watches that are packing cheap dime store Chinese movements? You know, those of us who

have got taken and want an explanation?

So in your mind we are owed nothing? Just let it go huh? Not going to happen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by StephenC

I sould not have posted in this thread....bad judgement call on my part....sorry...

..

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#394

Today, 07:20 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by sandman20

On the back of the watch it says INVICTA RESERVE in the middle and RESERVE COLLECTION at the

bottom. The model # is F0003. I thought all Reserve's (other than the Lupah) had to be SWISS MADE. So

maybe it is, who knows?

It might be interesting to see if that particular model number is listed on the Invicta site in reserve catalog or

even listed in any collection at all.

I would also like to correct myself. That particular watch is from the "Exclusive" Reserve Collection. If I can

go out on a limb on this I think there used to be an "Exclusive" collection of various Invicta's available thru

Amazon and just recently have been popping up at other internet sources.

It was originally, I think at least it was originally the Russian Divers in these collections at Amazon being just

marked "Swiss" that originally brought this whole "Swiss" vs "Swiss Made" topic up.

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#395

Today, 07:26 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by StephenC

So what do you want Invicta to do? My guess even it they come out and say "Swiss" means "Swiss made", some of you would not believe it anyway. So why bother. This has turned into one of those just keep piling it on kinda thread. If you don't feel the Swiss means Swiss made....and it bothers you this much, just don't buy the product. I am waiting for someone to post "Getta a rope......."

Can people stop posting in this thread without even reading it!!!!

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#396

Today, 07:29 AM

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I can't believe this thread has gone on for a couple of days now and no one from Invicta or Shop has stepped up

to the plate. All we are is asking is what does "Swiss" on the dial mean. I know what Michael has said (I have a

Tivo'd version of a show) and he said "Swiss=Swiss Made". I don't care if he says he made a mistake or what,

just want someone to step up and address the issue. I will not buy another Invicta until I get an answer and I

will advise others of the same.

In full disclosure I bought my wife an Invicta Diver strap watch that says "Swiss Movt" on the dial and I have

no problems with that as I know what I am getting - a Chinese watch with a swiss parts movement.

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#397

Today, 07:36 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by StephenC

My guess even it they come out and say "Swiss" means "Swiss made", some of you would not believe it anyway.

You have apparently unwittingly defined this whole thread in that one statement. Had Invicta/Shop NOT said

that, this thread would not be needed. But in fact they said just that, and we are seeing proof that it appears

"Swiss" means at least partly parts from or made in China. I have seen nothing official to address this which of

course leads to more skepticisim. If that video was deleted, when others are not, that is also disturbing unless

accompanied by an explanation. If anyone feels we don't need an explantion for this type of issue, I believe sale

numbers from the hardcore buyers will speak volumes in the future.

I do want to add, at least the thread is being allowed to proceed, and I hope we can keep it civil so that it does

live.

I also echo the post above this one. I already stated it isn't so much that the watch isn't what most would

consider "Swiss Made", but rather specifically being told it is, when it appears it is not. Just tell us the truth, I

can then decide if the price of a watch is what I am willing to pay based on fact. Having parts from China in a

watch I like at a good price is ok. (And I own a couple of automatic Chinese made movement watches) Having

a watch that is supposed to be "Swiss Made" and a price higher than I might like, but buy because it is "Swiss

Made" is not ok.

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#398

Today, 07:42 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Kahuna Cowboy

I have wondered the same thing. If true it is pretty shady from my point of view.

Are you implying that Invicta is shady? (sarcasm)

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#399

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How about leaving StephenC alone already, can't you see where he apologized and said he shouldn't have

posted!

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#400

Today, 07:52 AM

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I just have to ask, since proof is already here of misleading consumers, where does the truth end with Invicta?

Why think that all the watches marked as "Swiss Made" are the real deal?

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Statement - by Eyal

I have been asked to personally clarify the confusion with the markings on the watches. I

feel I have a confident and open enough relationship with our customers to make a clear

statement and get this matter clarified once and for all. While I know that it is impossible

to satisfy everyone, it is our commitment to keep a top level relationship with our very

loyal customer base.

There is a definite gray area in the use of the words Swiss•, Swiss Made•, Swiss

Movements•, Swiss Parts•, Swiss Components•, and Swiss Registration•. The fact of

the matter is that, like in many multiple-componentproducts, where the country of origin

adds value to the product, we tend to highlight that.

A perfect example is the auto industry. You might buy a Mercedes that is manufactured in

Mexico using German engineering, some German parts, etc. The brand focuses on

highlighting their Germanstandards. Much in the same way, the watch industry does

when Swiss is present. Without mentioning brands, it is important to understand that

Switzerland almost produces NO watch components except parts associated with the

movements, and assembly. What this means is that if you bought a $6000.00 Swiss Made

Chronograph from Brand X•, what you are likely buying is a watch that houses a Swiss

Made movement (And even the movement components themselves have their own

complicated breakdown value. For instance, even if a movement is Swiss Made•, it does

not mean every part in the movement was made in Switzerland, only a given percentage of

that ) and the watch was assembled and tested in Switzerland. We do the same, and

hopefully that brings clarity to everyone that when we mark a watch Swiss Made•, you

are buying a Swiss Made watch with a Swiss made movement, that is assembled in

Switzerland.

Then we get into the way we use the word SWISS. The the word Swisswas used on

watches as a description for a watch using a movement with Swiss part Origins. This

includes movements that are bought from SWISS COMPANIES, with SWISS

ENGENEERING, that are tested in Switzerland, but has components that are sent off to

the Far East for cost purposes to be assembled. Examples of these are ETA, Ronda, ISA,

Far East versions•. They were developed to assist in delivering the consumer more value,

on an otherwise identical item. Today, the word Swiss is used on watches that are very

inexpensive, because the brand used a Swiss Movement Far East assembly version. Yes as

companies we do call more attention to this than the fact that the movement is assembled

in China, but that is marketing.

Then there is the talk about the Swiss Federation. I cannot speak too much into the Swiss

Federation standard because it is a private foreign entity, not a law dictating body, and we

do not belong to it for a variety of reasons I prefer not to go into. I respect companies

developing a stamp of approval and charging for it, such as COSC, but to be part of a

group that develops standards on watches based on the direction of the big playersin the

watch industry, and attempting to apply them to smaller companies without giving them a

fair chance, is a monopoly, and I am strongly against that.

I make this statement on a personal level, and hope that it can bring some level of clarity

to this discussion.

Sincerely,

Eyal

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#402

Today, 07:59 AM

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Eyal,

Was Michael Davis repeating what you told him about "Swiss" being the same as "SWISS MADE", or was that

an assumption that he made on his own?

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#403

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So what's the difference between "Swiss" and "Swiss Parts Movement"?

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#404

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So if I am reading correctly in Eyal post Swiss DOES NOT = Swiss Made, correct?

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#405

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That is what I got from it.

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#406

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Finally, the truth, as we have previously discussed in this thread! I hope there is no more "bobing and weaving"

this story on air anymore........the word "swiss" by itself is meaningless.............and "swiss made" is almost as

useless..........they need to change the law!!!!!

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#407

Today, 08:16 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by TeamInvicta

Without mentioning brands, it is important to understand that Switzerland almost produces NO watch

components except parts associated with the movements, and assembly. What this means is that if you bought

a $6000.00 Swiss Made Chronograph from Brand X•, what you are likely buying is a watch that houses a

Swiss Made movement (And even the movement components themselves have their own complicated

breakdown value. For instance, even if a movement is Swiss Made•, it does not mean every part in the

movement was made in Switzerland, only a given percentage of that ) and the watch was assembled and

tested in Switzerland. We do the same, and hopefully that brings clarity to everyone that when we mark a

watch Swiss Made•, you are buying a Swiss Made watch with a Swiss made movement, that is assembled in

Switzerland.

So what your saying is even if you have "Swiss Made" on a watch that it might not actually all be "Swiss

Made"???

Also since you wanted to bring the auto industry into this as a reference you might consider doing the same

thing they do. On the window of a new car they list what % of the car parts came from what countries and

exactly where the car was assembled. Since you mentioned car parts and new cars maybe you could do as they

and list where parts came from and where they were assembled ... just a thought.

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#408

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Eyal, thank you for your response.

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#409

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Thank you to Eyal for addressing this. I appreciate it.

It is what I thought it was.

I'll keep sticking with the Swiss Made products.

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#410

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Eyal's response is welcome and appreciated...how often would a CEO of a company reply on a forum to this

type of subject matter - Not often, if ever. That being said, there were a lot of inferences made by himself and

others on TV about watches being "entirely" swiss made, and so on and so forth. I guess you guys that bought

the "chinese" versions will have to decide the ultimate outcome in this matter. To buy, or not to buy, is the

future question...

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#411

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Thank you Eyal for clarifying the situation. It is what had been said in this thread but it good to hear it from the

Owner.

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#412

Today, 09:07 AM

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I read Invicta's above statementt. I don't care if the watch has Swiss parts, if a watch company puts "Swiss" on

the dial it needs at least a "Swiss Made" movement period, that's the law according to the U.S. Custom

regulations. So if you are going to use Chinese movements with Swiss parts take "Swiss" off the dial, and state

the watch has a Swiss parts movement.

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#413

Today, 09:09 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by 2010gt

Eyal's response is welcome and appreciated...how often would a CEO of a company reply on a forum to this

type of subject matter - Not often, if ever. That being said, there were a lot of inferences made by himself and

others on TV about watches being "entirely" swiss made, and so on and so forth. I guess you guys that bought

the "chinese" versions will have to decide the ultimate outcome in this matter. To buy, or not to buy, is the

future question...

You have a very good point in stating that it is up to the consumer now on whether to buy or not to buy, but the

question that each consumer who is now aware of this is whether they still have any trust left on what they are

buying and who they are buying from. If they are going to do what they did in the past and only rather fess up

when caught what else could they or still be doing. Its not only an issue of knowing what your buying but it is

also an issue of trusting the people your buying from and it sounds like some knowingly might have put that

trust in jeapordy to make a dollar.

On a side note I wonder what this, can we call it misrepresentations does with the relationship of Invicta and

ShopNBC? It would be interesting to know how ShopNBC feels about this whole matter of misrepresentation

since it was done on there channel.

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#414

Today, 09:09 AM

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To the OP, possibly you should add to the title- "Response from Eyal, post #401"

I can honestly say I'm very disappointed with Eyal's answer as I just found out my Venom's marked SWISS are

not SWISS MADE as I thought they were. I am appreciative that Eyal did come forward and clarify.

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#415

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I am still some what confused on the issue, not that I care where the parts are made, as long as the watch works

well for a very long time is my only major concern...But! I like others have seen and heard on shop shows that

Swiss and Swiss made are the same thing, guess not! and all those guys that buy the high priced autos like the

7750, 7751 may not even have a complete movt. of swiss parts. I guess that lets some of the hot air out of the

balloon for the purist type collector. Not that it would make a bit of diff. to me but some may be chapped

about that, as they have collected on the fact that there auto movt's were made a 100% in Switzerland.

So what about swiss movt. I would imagine that some of the movt. is made from some swiss parts and the

remainder is made elsewhere, and the building of the watch is elsewhere also!

Looks to me like no matter what, Swiss Made is only a percentage and that means movt. also. I could care less

as long as the watch looks good, wears good and runs good for a long time...I am fine!!

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#416

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Here is a video from Shop that is going to air the RQ 12 am ET tonight with the SWISS at the 3 position and

Michael says that there wasn't enough room to put the SWISS designation at the 6, so they put it at the 3, but

that it is still "SWISS MADE"! This has to stop!

http://www.shopnbc.com/Invicta_Men_s...aspx?storeid=1

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#417

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Kinda like Toto discovering that the Wizard of Oz was behind the curtain........anyone need some more egg on

thier faces? It comes as no surprize to me.......sad it took so long..........They (Invicta) make a great product, I

knew when I read the Swiss law years ago that it was all smoke and mirrors. that said........I continued to buy

thier product and will.........in the future.......I'm just glad that Shop and Invicta "bellied up to the bar". maybe

some labeling changes will take place due to this......at least I feel a little vendicated.

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#418

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Like beatin a dead horse, been discussed many many times before!

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#419

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Quote:

Originally Posted by timeman

I read Invicta's above statementt. I don't care if the watch has Swiss parts, if a watch company puts "Swiss"

on the dial it needs at least a "Swiss Made" movement period, that's the law according to the U.S. Custom

regulations. So if you are going to use Chinese movements with Swiss parts take "Swiss off the dial, and state

the watch has a Swiss parts movement.

"Just a fact to remember when purchasing an Invicta if it doesn't say Swiss Made on the dial then you have an

Asian assembled movement inside. Only the watches Marked Swiss Made from Invicta have a Swiss

assembled movement inside. It makes you wonder is there anything else that we are being mislead and just

haven't uncovered the truth yet".

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#420

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Well, its being discussed again! and rightly so!!

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#421

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Quote:

Originally Posted by MREXE

Kinda like Toto discovering that the Wizard of Oz was behind the curtain........anyone need some more egg on

thier faces? It comes as no surprize to me.......sad it took so long..........They (Invicta) make a great product, I

knew when I read the Swiss law years ago that it was all smoke and mirrors. that said........I continued to buy

thier product and will.........in the future.......I'm just glad that Shop and Invicta "bellied up to the bar". maybe

some labeling changes will take place due to this......at least I feel a little vendicated.

I feel very little vindicated to say the least.

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#422

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bhar21

Like beatin a dead horse, been discussed many many times before!

Not this time. This time we got the answer from the horses mouth.

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#423

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Originally Posted by watchluv

Not this time. This time we got the answer from the horses mouth.

You got that right, plus 1 here!!

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#424

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To Everyone -----

First, a big Thank-you to Eyal for addressing this issue here with us.

Second, I beg everyone to carefully read the reply and let it sink in. If you have read my posts I am in no way

an appologist. But I can now see another side to this whole story, and to me Eyal was very honest with us, more

than many CEO's would be.

It can be argued, by putting just the word "Swiss" on the watches instead of "Swiss Made", Invicta was actually

being honest in that the watch is being produced differently. Further, I am reading it is the postion of Invicta

that they feel justified in calling it the same as "Swiss Made" in that the movements are Swiss movements,

from Swiss companies, but now being assembled in China. You may agree with or disagree with their

conclusion, but I feel better hearing the explanation, together with not continuing to use "Swiss Made" on these

watches. Maybe a little better explanation should have come our way sooner of what Mike meant, but we now

have it and I for one am glad it came, and feel better about the whole thing.

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#425

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Argabright

If a company can label a watch SWISS that contains a Chinese movement, how much of the other claims they

make about their products can you trust?

Just sayin'

That is the whole point!

The other point is with Invicta claiming to build so many watches in Switzerland with Swiss factories

supposedly producing them the fact that they do not belong to the Swiss Federation just "smells" bad to me.

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What bother's me about Eyal's response is he doesn't comment on the Invicta examples shown in this thread

where the watch was clearly marked as Swiss Made, yet it contains a BRANDLESS, made in china

movement. Even if that movement was a Rhonda movement, assembled in China from swiss engineered and

swiss made Rhonda parts, how do we know that's true, when the movement isn't even branded with the

Rhonda name. It makes you wonder whether it is really a cheap Chinese knock-off of a Rhonda movement,

made of inferior chinese made parts that were assembled completely in China.

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#427

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So then, the bottom line is that all of the many times Invicta sellers on Shop have stated on air that Swiss on the

dial equals Swiss Made, they were not telling the truth.

The truth is that Swiss on an Invicta dial can mean that only Swiss parts are used in the movement, a far cry

from their Swiss Made claim.

Eyal, and all Invicta sellers, from this point on you should all be extremely careful to not make statements

about your watches that are not true. It seriously damages your credibility.

And worse, making false statements to modivate your potential customers to purchase your products is at best

unethical, and at worst illegal.

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#428

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Quote:

Originally Posted by kless13

Here is a video from Shop that is going to air the RQ 12 am ET tonight with the SWISS at the 3 position and

Michael says that there wasn't enough room to put the SWISS designation at the 6, so they put it at the 3, but

that it is still "SWISS MADE"! This has to stop!

http://www.shopnbc.com/Invicta_Men_s...aspx?storeid=1

You better watch the video now, because I'm sure it will be removed by ShopNBC shortly.

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#429

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Quote:

Originally Posted by TeamInvicta

I have been asked to personally clarify the confusion with the markings on the watches. ...

Thanks for the honesty.

Awesome posting.

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#430

Today, 09:54 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlieB

So then, the bottom line is that all of the many times Invicta sellers on Shop have stated on air that Swiss on

the dial equals Swiss Made, they were not telling the truth...

Perhaps they were either misinformed or poorly educated, versus intentionally lying...

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#431

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Quote:

Originally Posted by TeamInvicta

I have been asked to personally clarify the confusion with the markings on the watches. I feel I have a

confident and open enough relationship with our customers to make a clear statement and get this matter

clarified once and for all. While I know that it is impossible to satisfy everyone, it is our commitment to keep

a top level relationship with our very loyal customer base.

There is a definite gray area in the use of the words Swiss•, Swiss Made•, Swiss Movements•, Swiss

Parts•, Swiss Components•, and Swiss Registration•. The fact of the matter is that, like in many multiple-

componentproducts, where the country of origin adds value to the product, we tend to highlight that.

A perfect example is the auto industry. You might buy a Mercedes that is manufactured in Mexico using

German engineering, some German parts, etc. The brand focuses on highlighting their Germanstandards.

Much in the same way, the watch industry does when Swiss is present. Without mentioning brands, it is

important to understand that Switzerland almost produces NO watch components except parts associated

with the movements, and assembly. What this means is that if you bought a $6000.00 Swiss Made

Chronograph from Brand X•, what you are likely buying is a watch that houses a Swiss Made movement

(And even the movement components themselves have their own complicated breakdown value. For instance,

even if a movement is Swiss Made•, it does not mean every part in the movement was made in Switzerland,

only a given percentage of that ) and the watch was assembled and tested in Switzerland. We do the same,

and hopefully that brings clarity to everyone that when we mark a watch Swiss Made•, you are buying a

Swiss Made watch with a Swiss made movement, that is assembled in Switzerland.

Then we get into the way we use the word SWISS•. The the word Swisswas used on watches as a description

for a watch using a movement with Swiss part Origins. This includes movements that are bought from SWISS

COMPANIES, with SWISS ENGENEERING, that are tested in Switzerland, but has components that are sent

off to the Far East for cost purposes to be assembled. Examples of these are ETA, Ronda, ISA, Far East

versions•. They were developed to assist in delivering the consumer more value, on an otherwise identical

item. Today, the word Swiss is used on watches that are very inexpensive, because the brand used a Swiss

Movement Far East assembly version. Yes as companies we do call more attention to this than the fact that

the movement is assembled in China, but that™s marketing.

Then there is the talk about the Swiss Federation. I cannot speak too much into the Swiss Federation

standard because it is a private foreign entity, not a law dictating body, and we do not belong to it for a

variety of reasons I prefer not to go into. I respect companies developing a stamp of approval and charging

for it, such as COSC, but to be part of a group that develops standards on watches based on the direction of

the big playersin the watch industry, and attempting to apply them to smaller companies without giving them

a fair chance, is a monopoly, and I am strongly against that.

I make this statement on a personal level, and hope that it can bring some level of clarity to this discussion.

Sincerely,

Eyal

Thanks Eyal. As I thought this is more of a Swiss Industry issue/trend than anything nefarious by Invicta. No, I

am not defending Invicta and I have slammed them in the past when I had issues, but as I stated prior this is

more marketing than anything else.

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#432

Today, 09:57 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by timeman

You better watch the video now, because I'm sure it will be removed by ShopNBC shortly.

Thanks, I watched and I'm sure it will be removed after someone reads this thread. He did clearly say it is

Swiss Made which as we now know for sure just isn't so.

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#433

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This speaks to the future values of all the lines, not just the "lower end" products. Reputation DOES affect

market value, this is why very few Invictas hold any value except amongst collectors. I still love my SANIV, I

will just avoid bragging about its heritage and quality because I don't like to be made to look foolish. I now

look at these watches more as just fashionable sport watches, rather than collectibles.

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#434

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Personally, I couldn't care less if a watch (or it's movement) are made in Switzerland, China, Japan, or New

Jersey (Ok. Maybe not New Jersey LOL). As long as it works and keeps good time, that's good enough for me.

That being so stated, it would be nice if the sellers were more up front and accurate in describing the origins for

those who it does matter to. It's just not right to use these terms loosely in order to boost sales. I'm not saying

that anyone is lying. I know that this is common practice in sales. I just think that it would be nice if they were

more truthfull with their information.

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#435

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Quote:

Originally Posted by tampa8

To Everyone -----

First, a big Thank-you to Eyal for addressing this issue here with us.

Second, I beg everyone to carefully read the reply and let it sink in. If you have read my posts I am in no way

an appologist. But I can now see another side to this whole story, and to me Eyal was very honest with us,

more than many CEO's would be.

It can be argued, by putting just the word "Swiss" on the watches instead of "Swiss Made", Invicta was

actually being honest in that the watch is being produced differently. Further, I am reading it is the postion of

Invicta that they feel justified in calling it the same as "Swiss Made" in that the movements are Swiss

movements, from Swiss companies, but now being assembled in China. You may agree with or disagree with

their conclusion, but I feel better hearing the explanation, together with not continuing to use "Swiss Made"

on these watches. Maybe a little better explanation should have come our way sooner of what Mike meant,

but we now have it and I for one am glad it came, and feel better about the whole thing.

Tampa, I didn't take it that Eyal feels justified calling Swiss and Swiss Made the same in that post. Eyal says

"Today, the word Swiss is used on watches that are very inexpensive, because the brand used a Swiss

Movement Far East assembly version". I don't think he also feels that a "Swiss Made" watch is also generally a

very inexpensive watch. And in this post, I do feel that Eyal relays the message that Swiss doesn't equal Swiss

Made. Maybe I misunderstood the article. If so please chime in.

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#436

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I'm really not sure why anyone is surprised.

Any company's advertising/marketing hype is the worst place to be educated about a product.

Seems a bit like the self-imposed illusion has been stripped away and some aren't happy that the Emperor is

actually naked.

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#437

Today, 10:11 AM

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I guess I am confused. It's great the issue was addressed, somewhat. But how does it answer the other raging

question in the thread?

What is the explanation on the repeated claims when presenting watches labeld SWISS that they were Swiss

Made (see vidoes in thread)? This was done many, many times, from all personnel from top down.

From the response, it is clear that they KNOW that when they label an item as SWISS that is not Swiss Made.

Yet they made the claims on air anyway....

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#438

Today, 10:15 AM

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Well, this confirms what i suspected all along. If you read any of flybacks post in this very long thread, you

will see that Swiss on the dial, if you are not a member of the federation means nothing.

This issue was that , Invicta claimed that if one of their watches says swiss on the dial, it means swiss made.

That is obviously a lie, as supported by Eyal himslef here, and they use it as marketing, plain and simple.

Member of federation or not, if you sell a watch in the US, and mark it swiss made, it has to meet the guidlines

of the swiss federation to be marked as such, so of course a watch with the words Swiss on it, is not the same, If

you could have labled it swiss made, you would have.

So, anyone , if you dont care about movement, or origins of it, etc, keep buying. If swiss made is important to

you , do not buy a watch from Invicta marked Swiss, because it is not the same.

I dont really think much else can be said on this topic, it has been covered, and what we have found out is that,

they were using nothing else but a marketing tactic, and because the word Swiss on the dial is not regulated

unless your a member of the federation, it can be grey area all day, because they have done nothing legally

wrong, just ethically wrong, and lied to the customers. Where you spend your money on watches in the future,

is up to you.

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#439

Today, 10:19 AM

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A controversy that will never be settled to everyone's satisfaction.

But interesting reading...

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#440

Today, 10:25 AM

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Eyal's statement: "Today, the word Swiss is used on watches that are very inexpensive, because the brand used

a Swiss Movement Far East assembly version. Yes as companies we do call more attention to this than the

fact that the movement is assembled in China, but that™s marketing."

I don't know about everyone else, but I don't call not emphasizing the whole truth as marketing. I call that

deceit to make a buck. I appreciate Eyal's honesty with his statement here. I don't appreciate his company's

dishonesty with the way they have been marketing their watches. The fact that other watch companies say the

same "now you see it (Swiss Made on the dial), and now you don't ( made in China on the movement)", doesn't

excuse any of them.

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#441

Today, 10:28 AM

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So Invicta is knowingly and willfully DECEIVING customers by labeling watches "Swiss" instead of "Swiss

Parts Movement"

WTFFFFF

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#442

Today, 10:36 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by BabyDoc

Eyal's statement: "Today, the word Swiss is used on watches that are very inexpensive, because the brand

used a Swiss Movement Far East assembly version. Yes as companies we do call more attention to this than

the fact that the movement is assembled in China, but that™s marketing."

I don't know about everyone else, but I don't call not emphasizing the whole true as marketing. I call that

deceit to make a buck. I appreciate Eyal's honesty with his statement here. I don't appreciate his companies

dishonesty with the way they have been marketing their watches. The fact that other watch companies say the

same "now you see it (Swiss Made on the dial), now you don't ( made in China on the movement)", doesn't

excuse any of them.

I agree with you Bill. We'll just have to see if they continue to call Swiss and Swiss Made the same. I don't

think they will from this point on.

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#443

Today, 10:40 AM

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What next Invicta?

This is not a trend that assures me that my dollars are well spent with you. Why was the deception necessary?

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#444

Today, 10:45 AM

kless13

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Quote:

Originally Posted by InvictaValjoux

What next Invicta?

This is not a trend that assures me that my dollars are well spent with you. Why was the deception necessary?

To sell massive amounts of watches! It's good that this thread came about, or Invicta would never have come

clean.

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#445

Today, 10:48 AM

Time Bandit

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Eyal,

I have read your statement.

The Statement confirms the subject of what this thread is pertaining to, and for you to personally respond -

speaks volumes.

To recap, "Swiss ≠Swiss Made".

Quote:

Originally Posted by TeamInvicta

.....Today, the word Swiss is used on watches that are very inexpensive, because the brand used a Swiss

Movement Far East assembly version.

(Question)Will you and your team continue, in the future, to verbally market your watches as "Swiss Made" if

the item(s) have been marked with the word "Swiss" on the dial?

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#446

Today, 11:00 AM

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Just something for all to think about ...

Would Invicta now have had to come clean on the deception of it all if they had not tried to deceive you in the

first place?

I just dont get all the back patting praise for coming clean on this when if they had just been honest from the

start this would never be what it is now.

I truly wonder how long it would have gone on if they had not been caught in the deception ... probably for a

long long time.

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#447

Today, 11:11 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by rudayo

I guess I am confused. It's great the issue was addressed, somewhat. But how does it answer the other raging

question in the thread?

What is the explanation on the repeated claims when presenting watches labeld SWISS that they were Swiss

Made (see vidoes in thread)? This was done many, many times, from all personnel from top down.

From the response, it is clear that they KNOW that when they label an item as SWISS that is not Swiss Made.

Yet they made the claims on air anyway....

Eyal didn't say that they were going to stop representing watches just labeled "SWISS" as Swiss Made......

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#448

Today, 11:13 AM

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The real problem here, as I have been trying to drive home for a long time,it's the Swiss watch law that

ALLOWS watch makers to make such Claims........I think the U.S. Customs office in Florida would be

interested in this thread......or maybe not, the way government is being run these days......

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#449

Today, 11:14 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Time Bandit

Eyal,

I have read your statement.

The Statement confirms the subject of what this thread is pertaining to, and for you to personally respond -

speaks volumes.

To recap, "Swiss ≠Swiss Made".

(Question)Will you and your team continue, in the future, to verbally market your watches as "Swiss Made"

if the item(s) have been marked with the word "Swiss" on the dial?

Why aren't those watches labeled "Swiss Parts Movement" in the first place?!?!?!

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#450

Today, 11:15 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by MREXE

The real problem here, as I have been trying to drive home for a long time,it's the Swiss watch law that

ALLOWS watch makers to make such Claims........I think the U.S. Customs office in Florida would be

interested in this thread......or maybe not, the way government is being run these days......

Yes, it is an industry issue.

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Originally Posted by kless13

I agree with you Bill. We'll just have to see if they continue to call Swiss and Swiss Made the same. I don't

think they will from this point on.

I really doubt that anything will change. When you read Eyal's statement, do you read anything that sounds the

least bit apologetic? I don't.

In so many words, he states that all the watch companies are engaged in the same misrepresentations and "that's

marketing". With that kind of rationalization for what they are doing to increase their profits, do you really

expect them to change?

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#452

Today, 11:24 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by vbobdriveguy

Personally, I couldn't care less if a watch (or it's movement) are made in Switzerland, China, Japan, or New

Jersey (Ok. Maybe not New Jersey LOL). As long as it works and keeps good time, that's good enough for

me.

That being so stated, it would be nice if the sellers were more up front and accurate in describing the origins

for those who it does matter to. It's just not right to use these terms loosely in order to boost sales. I'm not

saying that anyone is lying. I know that this is common practice in sales. I just think that it would be nice if

they were more truthfull with their information.

Could not have said it any better myself...except for that New Jersey thing. Love all my watches...their

birth and raising from all parts of the world! Hosts/Sellers, please focus on the quality of the

timepiece...not the marketing!

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#453

Today, 11:26 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by samuelrz

Yes, it is an industry issue.

And maybe an ethics issue as well! Except maybe US marketing & ethics...oxymoron!

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#454

Today, 11:29 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by samuelrz

Yes, it is an industry issue.

Not really. It's a U.S. Customs country of origin labeling issue.

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#455

Today, 11:36 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyback

Not really. It's a U.S. Customs country of origin labeling issue.

Then it's not an Invicta issue, it's an Industry issue since they don't have control beyond a certain point.

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#456

Today, 11:38 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by X-James

So what your saying is even if you have "Swiss Made" on a watch that it might not actually all be "Swiss

Made"???

Also since you wanted to bring the auto industry into this as a reference you might consider doing the same

thing they do. On the window of a new car they list what % of the car parts came from what countries and

exactly where the car was assembled. Since you mentioned car parts and new cars maybe you could do as

they and list where parts came from and where they were assembled ... just a thought.

Well the upside with "Swiss Made" is you can count on 4 things.

1: A true Swiss movement

2: Minimum 51% of the components of the watch are Swiss Origin

3: Assembled in Switzerland

4: Final QC inspection was carried out in Switzerland

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#457

Today, 11:38 AM

Time Bandit

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Quote:

Originally Posted by GeorgeTheWatchGuy

This thread will remain open...

Thanks George,

I'm hoping it will remain open to allow followup Q&A

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#458

Today, 11:40 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by samuelrz

Then it's not an Invicta issue, it's an Industry issue since they don't have control beyond a certain point.

They have control over following or not following the country of origin labeling regulations.

U.S. Customs Regulations, 19 CFR Part 177

Chapter 91, Additional U.S. Note 4, Harmonized Tariff Schedule of the United States, sets forth special

marking requirements for watches and clocks:

(a) Watch movements shall be marked on one or more of the bridges or top plates to show:

(i) the name of the country of manufacture,

(ii) the name of the manufacturer or purchaser, and

(iii) in words, the number of jewels, if any, serving a mechanical purpose as frictional bearings.

(c) Watch cases shall be marked on the inside or outside of the back to show:

(i) the name of the country of manufacture, and

(ii) the name of the manufacturer or purchaser.

The above movements and cases must be conspicuously and indelibly marked by cutting, die-sinking,

engraving, stamping (including by means of indelible ink), or mold-marking. Movements with opto-electronic

display only and cases designed for use therewith, whether entered as separate articles or as components of

assembled watches or clocks, are excepted from these special marking requirements.

Watches and clocks are also subject to the normal country of origin marking requirements of 19 U.S.C. 1304,

and under these requirements, the movement™s country of origin should appear conspicuously and legibly

on the dial face or on the outside of the back. In addition, watchbands should be marked with the country of

manufacture of the band, unless the watchband is attached in the country where the watch was produced.

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#459

Today, 11:40 AM

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Ok everyone... We have received a reply from Eyal... So lets keep this theme on his reply... All this other stuff has been addressed here in this thread many, many times...

Thank you.. __________________

"There are Two Types of Pain in this World: The Temporary Pain of Discipline, or the Permanent Pain of

Regret"... GTWG

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#460

Today, 11:46 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by BabyDoc

I really doubt that anything will change. When you read Eyal's statement, do you read anything that sounds

the least bit apologetic? I don't.

In so many words, he states that all the watch companies are engaged in the same misrepresentations and

"that's marketing". With that kind of rationalization for what they are doing to increase their profits, do you

really expect them to change?

I'm still finding it hard to believe that in the future, Eyal would say that Swiss and Swiss Made are equal, when

he just told us in his post that Swiss labeled watches are very inexpensive.

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#461

Today, 11:48 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by samuelrz

Then it's not an Invicta issue, it's an Industry issue since they don't have control beyond a certain point.

While true the industry does love to put the word "Swiss" on the dial and add some qualifier next to give the

impression the watch is more than what it really is, this however was flat out misrepresentation and it went on

for years.

This is now the 2nd time I have witnessed a Shop NBC brand get caught in misrepresenting their watches as

meeting the benchmarks of Swiss Made when they never were.

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#462

Today, 11:49 AM

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A mens clothing company up this way had a advertising slogan -- "An educated consumer is our best customer"

Just want to know the facts about what I am purchasing. Then its up to me to make a decision.

For me anyway the issue is now clear (I think, unless I missed something else in this thread, which I probably

did). "Swiss Made" is Swiss made and "Swiss" is not Swiss made. I like my few watches that are labeled

"Swiss" and would consider buying others in the future.

Just as long as I know what I'm I am buying, and the vendors are up front about it.

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#463

Today, 11:50 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by kless13

I'm still finding it hard to believe that in the future, Eyal would say that Swiss and Swiss Made are equal,

when he just told us in his post that Swiss labeled watches are very inexpensive.

I think he might hold off saying that for a while then start right back again. Remember we at WG's are a small #

in Invicta's customer base.

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#464

Today, 11:54 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by watchluv

I think he might hold off saying that for a while then start right back again. Remember we at WG's are a

small # in Invicta's customer base.

Nope. Don't underestimate the geeks. If we were so insignificant we would have not gotten a lengthy reply

from the CEO himself, and Invicta would not sponsor the Watchgeeks and help foot the bills here.

Geeks are the ones who have 10, 20, 50, 100+ Invicta's. Geeks are strong on repeat business and Invicta knows

that.

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#465

Today, 12:00 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by emathieu

True, a lot of us purchase more watches in 2 months than non-geeks do in two years.

Exactly. I mean what does the normal person buy? Maybe one new watch a year, maybe? Plus they probably

try to stay under $150'ish.

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#466

Today, 12:01 PM

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Please stay ON TOPIC , Thanks

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#467

Today, 12:10 PM

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Were Jim and Michael basing their knowledge strictly on what Invicta told them? If so, unfortunate.

Eyal said this-'the new revelation': "Then we get into the way we use the word SWISS•. The the word

Swisswas used on watches as a description for a watch using a movement with Swiss part Origins. This

includes movements that are bought from SWISS COMPANIES, with SWISS ENGENEERING, that are tested

in Switzerland, but has components that are sent off to the Far East for cost purposes to be assembled."

Jim said this: "When you buy an Invicta that says "Swiss" or "Swiss Made" you get precisely that, so don't feel

like you are being misled. If you have any question in the future, ask me... I'll always shoot it straight"

Also Jim said this: "If it does not say Swiss Made or Swiss at the 6 position... then it is not Swiss made. Simple

as that. If it says anything about Swiss Movement, it has a Swiss movement. If it says Swiss parts Movement,

then it uses a Swiss ebauche (Swiss parts) and is built outside of Switzerland."

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#468

Today, 12:11 PM

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I am glad Eyal posted a response. It confirms what I and many others have known for some time, educates

others who didn't know about it until now, and strengthens my resolve to buy only Invictas with Swiss Made on

the dial.

Unfortunately it also leaves several unanswered questions centering around ethics and responsibility, and

definitely encourages me to make my next few purchases from other brands on my Want List besides Invicta.

But I'll be back. Invicta watches are too cool to ignore.

By the way, I am wearing my midsize SAS today and loving it. As I have stated many times in my nearly 2,000

posts here, Invicta is great if you educate yourself and keep in mind what you are buying. I do not have any

non-Swiss Made Invictas because I knew all along that "Swiss" or any other dial marking does not mean Swiss

at all, and is only a cheesy attempt to imply Swiss origin.

Does Swissness (to use Michael's great new word) matter that much? Not really. I highly respect watches like

Seiko, Android, Deep Blue to name a few. These brands do not allow the customer to believe they are Swiss

when they are not. It's the misleading marketing that turns me off to non-Swiss Made Invictas. If Asian Invictas

simply said nothing on the dial, I would consider buying them.

The disturbing trend I see now is that more and more non-Swiss Made Invictas are being sold on ShopNBC,

even Reserve pieces like the new SAS models. Since I am not interested in non-Swiss Made Invictas, I fear this

trend will limit my choices in the future.

I believe nothing will change after this thread, except that a few more collectors know a little more about

Invicta's product offerings. What will change is that ShopNBC hosts will stop blatantly saying Swiss = Swiss

Made. But that is all. We will continue to see more and more non-Swiss Made Invictas on Shop because the

realities of the industry will not change because a few collectors on a web forum somewhere feel a little

slighted by misleading marketing tactics.

Eric.

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#469

Today, 12:13 PM

CharlieB

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bluloo

Perhaps they were either misinformed or poorly educated, versus intentionally lying...

I didn't say they were lying, I said they were not telling the truth. To say something that is not true is to not tell

the truth.

To intentionally not tell the truth is to lie. I don't know that it was intentional, so I never used the word lie.

However, the excuse of being mis-informed can not be used as an excuse. Eyal heads the company, and when

he goes on Shop and says without doubt or equivocation that Swiss is the same as Swiss Made when on an

Invicta dial, it is his responsibility to know for an absolute fact that that is true, that this information is 100%

correct.

The same holds for a person with the title of Technical Brand Manager, that title implies he has the technical

knowledge to be correct when he states Swiss equals Swiss Made.

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#470

Today, 12:14 PM

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I think Invicta cares very much about how we feel and what our concerns are. We might be a small percentage of the customer base but we buy many watches because we are collectors so one of us can account for 100 watches where as a regular every day person buys one watch. No they care about our opinion. In as far as Eyal coming on here and posting I give him credit because he told the truth and if you do not like what he said well that is your choice however we now know exactly what Invicta means when they write SWISS or SWISS MADE on the watches. Each of us from this point on will draw their own conclusions and that is your right ,I for one still love this company and the product they put out . I always go back to what Eyal said a long time ago, he can make a watch and charge as much money as all these big companies do but he prides himself in making a good watch made just as well as those other companies with one difference - THE PRICE and that still holds true no matter what is written on the dial and that is what I care about.

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#471

Today, 12:17 PM

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All I can add is while I have several Invictas now and I will continue to wear them however I will not be

buying anymore anytime soon.This is not only an Invicta credibility issue but a Shop NBC issue also.The old

stereotype of false advertising on a shopping channel has come into question.I really feel bad for Jim and MD

because they were duped just like the rest of us were.I had high hopes for Invicta and have defended them in

the past but now I just dont know what to ever believe from their company.

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#472

Today, 12:22 PM

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It,s time to stop all of this and let us know if the watch is turly swiss made or not. We will still buy them but

enough with the games

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#473

Today, 12:25 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by samuelrz

OMG, are you still debating this? If it's not AOSC then at best it's 51% Swiss. Now please LET THIS

THREAD DIE! Someone please Godwin this thread so it gets closed.

You know when I see a thread still open that Im tired of and people still posting AND especially when they are

waiting for a response, I JUST DONT COME BACK!! LMAO why not just quit coming to this thread and the

IT IS OVER for you! LOL!

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#474

Today, 12:25 PM

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As I've stated before, if I want a watch with an Asian movement,

or assembled in the Orient, I'll stick to Android, Stuhrling, Casio,

and Seiko, to name a few. Wing and Larry appear to be honorable

men, and are passonate about their product. I own several of their

watches.

I think I'm going to steer away from Invicta, for awhile, at least until

they change their practices.

I own too many of their overpriced Chinese watches, marked "Swiss"

already.

If Invicta sales are not damaged by what has come to light in this

thread, I wouldn't be surprised if everthing stays the same. The

bottom line are sales figures.

"GOOD" MARKETING PRACTICES and TRUTH IN ADVERTISING

ARE NOT THE SAME!!!

FOOL ME ONCE.......etc. etc. etc.

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#475

Today, 12:34 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by BabyDoc

I really doubt that anything will change. When you read Eyal's statement, do you read anything that sounds

the least bit apologetic? I don't.

In so many words, he states that all the watch companies are engaged in the same misrepresentations and

"that's marketing". With that kind of rationalization for what they are doing to increase their profits, do you

really expect them to change?

I am not a marketing major, but I have taken quite a few marketing and business classes during college; and I

can agree with Eyal 100%. Most companies do highlight the GOOD in their product. Almost no one mentions

the bad.

This is not very deceitful, it is MARKETING! That is why most people do research to buy things, because if

every one believed advertisements then they would always be disappointed in everything they buy. This is true

for almost all products marketed today. The deceit, IMO, comes from the fact that the 'misunderstanding' of this

was perpetuated on shopnbc and other sources this whole time. Yes, that is not OUR fault and it is quite un-

nerving. In Michael's defense, just because someone works for a company does not make them an expert in all

areas, so give Michael a break. I am sure he did not lie, but had an unintentional misunderstanding. I work in

Nuclear Power and you would be surprised at the stuff that most people just take 'other peoples word for it' and

that comes the new standard knowledge even when completely false. Stuff like this happens, and luckily we

had Eyal Step in and set it straight.

Don't get me wrong, sometimes marketing can get a little unethical such as drug companies. However, in some

cases such as prescription drug ads, they are required (by law?) to list good AND bad parts/side effects of their

product. This is the exception, as most people do not. Just like my Acer Timeline Laptop battery that was

supposed to last 8+ hours. It lasts maybe 3 to 4 hours MAX brand new; however I am not calling shenanigans

on Acer here.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike_NavyNuke

Just like my Acer Timeline Laptop battery that was supposed to last 8+ hours. It lasts maybe 3 to 4 hours

MAX brand new; however I am not calling shenanigans on Acer here.

Yeah, but notice that the Acer Timeline materials has a huge asterisk next to the 8+ hour claim that states

actual time will vary due to configuration and/or type of laptop usage.

I don't see an asterisk next to "Swiss", and didn't hear a really quick disclaimer (think car dealership

commercials) being played after people stated on air that "Swiss" on these pieces = "Swiss Made".

Big difference between what has happened with these watches and your Acer example.

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#477

Today, 12:42 PM

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Chief68, ya said it BEST.........I am so glad we are now "upfront" with what I've known for along time........

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#478

Today, 12:53 PM

KMC1212

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Wouldn't it be simpler if Invicta put "Swiss Made" on the watches that "are" Swiss made and didn't put

anything on the dials that aren't Swiss made? They could just mark on the case back "Swiss parts movement"

and leave the dial alone......

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#479

Today, 12:57 PM

samuelrz

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Quote:

Originally Posted by erictrumpet

I believe nothing will change after this thread, except that a few more collectors know a little more about

Invicta's product offerings. What will change is that ShopNBC hosts will stop blatantly saying Swiss = Swiss

Made. But that is all. We will continue to see more and more non-Swiss Made Invictas on Shop because the

realities of the industry will not change because a few collectors on a web forum somewhere feel a little

slighted by misleading marketing tactics.

Eric.

I agree. This isn't a new issue. If I owned Invicta and was making money hand over fist I would do nothing

different. I wouldn't change my QC, I wouldn't make ANY change until it actually affected sales. The "Spring

Forward Event" proved people will continue to buy regardless as long as they feel they are getting a good value

for the money.

The oldest thread that I've found where someone questions Invicta's QC is almost 10 years old. You could

change the model number and insert it into this forum and you wouldn't be able to tell.

We got a response from the CEO of a company which is more than I expect from any industry. This is just my

opinion and I know, I know, Swiss is not equal to Swiss Made. My point is nothing will change except the

marketing lingo.

I will keep buying cool looking watches from Invicta regardless.

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#480

Today, 12:58 PM

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Im going to say this, and this will be the last time i comment on this issue, but just want to put

in a couple more cents.

I could care less if the watch movement is made in Asia, China, Mexico, Guatamala, Indonesia,

or Switzerland. If its a well made watch, with good quality and looks, and meets what i want as

far as case design, fit and finish, etc, and keeps good time, i could care less where it was made.

BUT, I dont want to be mislead. If its chinese, say its chinese. No offense, Eyal made a nice

post, and what he said was true, he said its a grey area, that swiss on the dial does not mean

swiss made, and that is marketing. Do me a favor, dont market me a watch, tell me what it is

and I will buy it , based on facts, not marketing and fiction. Guess Im a dummy, but if you tell

me Swiss means the same as Swiss made by the swiss federation guidelines, I beleive it. But in

the end , you were lying, plain and simple. Ive been wanting to use this for a long time

so do me a favor DONT TELL ME SWISS IS SWISSMADE, WHEN ITS REALLY CHINESE.

THANKS.

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#481

Today, 12:59 PM

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I do not trust invicta. I thought they were honest and also thought Jim would have opened some of his Invictas'.

Please Jim Give us a response!!!

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#482

Today, 01:07 PM

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If I had ever actually bought into the hard line pro Invicta mindset, I would certainly feel a little "used". The

phrase "Seduced and abandoned" comes to mind. As it is though, this is about what I expected and have made

my Invicta purchases accordingly. As always, "Caveat emptor". Neither wishing nor bashing will make it any

different. Smell blood in the water?

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#483

Today, 01:12 PM

krayziehustler

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how is this any worse than Lior shouting (and even in print ads) saying he uses 100% Swiss Movement talking

about CL888

also, only a handfull of companies make a 100% swiss watch, even Rolex's are not 100%, even its its just the

gear or the gasket, or the ruby or even the screw, they outsource some things

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#484

Today, 01:13 PM

Time Bandit

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Quote:

Originally Posted by samuelrz

My point is nothing will change except the marketing lingo.

You don't think that "marketing lingo" being changed is a very big deal?

I think that it is a big deal if it is changed because of this thread.

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#485

Today, 01:16 PM

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What I think is apparent in this thread is that WG's are reasonable people who appreciate an answer when an

issue arises. We saw it with the Renato limited edition thread and Daniel's response and we see it here. It is

impressive that once the answer is given, that at least WG's show some appreciation, respect, and even a degree

of understanding in getting a response. It does not minimize the situation, but Eyal's response certainly goes a

long way in spreading some good will to a fan base who I truly believe "wants" to purchase Invicta time pieces.

In the final analysis, consumers want answers to their questions and want the knowledge to make the best

buying decision for them. Just a thought...

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#486

Today, 01:16 PM

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Im glad we got an explanation from Eyal. I dont care where the Movmnt is made from, AS LONG AS I

KNOW BEFORE I BUY! I just dont wanna be lied to or mislead. Especially since I woulda bought the watch

anyway, as long as its well built. Yeah some watches I buy I want them to be Swiss Made, because of price

etc... but some watches I really like and it doesnt matter to me as much, I JUST WANNA KNOW WHAT IM

BUYING AHEAD OF TIME!

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#487

Today, 01:17 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyjay616

Why aren't those watches labeled "Swiss Parts Movement" in the first place?!?!?!

Because it's better marketing to have "Swiss" on the dial that will sell more watches.

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#488

Today, 01:31 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Kahuna Cowboy

Nope. Don't underestimate the geeks. If we were so insignificant we would have not gotten a lengthy reply

from the CEO himself, and Invicta would not sponsor the Watchgeeks and help foot the bills here.

Geeks are the ones who have 10, 20, 50, 100+ Invicta's. Geeks are strong on repeat business and Invicta

knows that.

Geeks are only 5,000 + or - strong here and not all buy Invicta's. SNBC has millions of customers. That is

where Invicta gets most of their money from the SNBC customers. Also Invicta has many other vendor's selling

their products that have not even heard of WG's another customer base. Eyal spoke because maybe Jim and

Mike possibly ask him to address this on their Forum.

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#489

Today, 01:37 PM

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I have and will continue to have great respect for Eyal. It is great that he took the time to try to answer some of

the concerns posted here. However, I feel that he did not address the core concern of this thread. Invicta saying,

that Swiss means the same as Swiss Made when used on Invicta watches, on National Television and in writing

on this Forum. Possibly he missed this when reading the thread.

A simple, "sorry we confused people, while trying to explain the differences between the terms we use on our

watches". That, "the terms themselves are confusing and that there was no intent at deception". "We will make

sure this doesn't happen again".

Something like this should satisfy most geeks.

Eyal, keep making those great watches. Most geeks don't really care where they are made. We will buy them.

Just explain those "grey area terms" with precision so that we can understand their true meaning as it relates to

their use on Invicta watches!

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#490

Today, 01:39 PM

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I think what a lot of members/Invicta fans are looking for is a little accountability. After reading post 401, all I

saw was an explanantion of what the different "swiss" terms meant and some token car analogy. Nothing to the

fact that they went on-air and said Swiss is the same as Swiss Made. Maybe there are some legal ramifications

if anything more than that is said. And I do appreciate Eyal coming on here and posting his statement.

To be honest, I am not upset about that. I knew along time ago that swiss wasn't the same as swiss made

(regarding Invicta's watches). Call it common sense, but when there is plenty of room on the dial to put swiss

made and it isn't on there...it should raise a red flag.

My issue is in the pricing of some of these "Swiss" timepieces marketed as Swiss Made. To the people that

have no issue with this whole situation, consider the following. Russian Divers labeled Swiss (and marketed as

Swiss Made) have sold between $200-$300. Some for more, and some for less (there is a RD for $145 this

week) but that is the average price range. Then a Russian Diver that is a Swiss Parts Movt is sold for around

$100. When in essence there should not be that big of a price difference. I guess the best thing to do is speak

with your wallet. I will still buy Invicta's, but will continue to stick with the Swiss Made products.

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#491

Today, 01:46 PM

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Called snbc and they are not aware of any problems and asked that I give item numbers. LET THE BUYER

BEWare on SNBC!

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#492

Today, 01:58 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by emathieu

Yeah, but notice that the Acer Timeline materials has a huge asterisk next to the 8+ hour claim that states

actual time will vary due to configuration and/or type of laptop usage.

I don't see an asterisk next to "Swiss", and didn't hear a really quick disclaimer (think car dealership

commercials) being played after people stated on air that "Swiss" on these pieces = "Swiss Made".

Big difference between what has happened with these watches and your Acer example.

That is a good point too. At least from NOW ON we have the knowledge to make any future purchase

decisions. I for one, always beleived that the 'swiss' invictas were not swiss made. I only own one 'Swiss'

invicta that I paid 60 bucks for.

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#493

Today, 02:00 PM

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Christ, I've read all of this thread and I am more confluckted than ever.

WTF does Swiss mean if it's not even a Swiss movt? Swiss parts made in China?

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#494

Today, 02:03 PM

timeman

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Reading Eyal's post I found nothing indicating that Invicta believes they did anything wrong. Eyal's post

offered no apologies or admits any wrong doing for misrepresenting their watches as "Swiss Made", when they

weren't. I read nothing stating Invicta will stop the practice of placing "Swiss" on the dial for watches with

Swiss parts and assembled in the Far East. So it appears nothing has changed.

To repeat, as per U.S. Customs a watch that has "Swiss" on the dial or case back MUST have at least a "Swiss

Made" movement, and not one with Swiss parts assembled in the Far east, even if it sounds better for marketing

reasons.

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#495

Today, 02:04 PM

crazyjay616

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Nasty

Christ, I've read all of this thread and I am more confluckted than ever.

WTF does Swiss mean if it's not even a Swiss movt? Swiss parts made in China?

"Swiss" mean "Swiss Parts Movement assembled in China" apparently.

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#496

Today, 02:05 PM

kless13

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bamind

I think what a lot of members/Invicta fans are looking for is a little accountability. After reading post 401, all

I saw was an explanantion of what the different "swiss" terms meant and some token car analogy. Nothing to

the fact that they went on-air and said Swiss is the same as Swiss Made. Maybe there are some legal

ramifications if anything more than that is said. And I do appreciate Eyal coming on here and posting his

statement.

To be honest, I am not upset about that. I knew along time ago that swiss wasn't the same as swiss made

(regarding Invicta's watches). Call it common sense, but when there is plenty of room on the dial to put swiss

made and it isn't on there...it should raise a red flag.

My issue is in the pricing of some of these "Swiss" timepieces marketed as Swiss Made. To the people that

have no issue with this whole situation, consider the following. Russian Divers labeled Swiss (and marketed

as Swiss Made) have sold between $200-$300. Some for more, and some for less (there is a RD for $145 this

week) but that is the average price range. Then a Russian Diver that is a Swiss Parts Movt is sold for around

$100. When in essence there should not be that big of a price difference. I guess the best thing to do is speak

with your wallet. I will still buy Invicta's, but will continue to stick with the Swiss Made products.

Yes, I agree, Eyal never addressed the issue of why he has been saying that "Swiss" labeled watches are the

same as "Swiss Made" labeled watches. That is the main point and he circumvented it.

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#497

Today, 02:06 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyjay616

"Swiss" mean "Swiss Parts Movement assembled in China" apparently.

Wow... That really is the exact opposite of what was said on air.

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#498

Today, 02:07 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Nasty

Christ, I've read all of this thread and I am more confluckted than ever.

WTF does Swiss mean if it's not even a Swiss movt? Swiss parts made in China?

SWISS means: If we told you what it REALLY is, we don't think you'll buy it.

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#499

Today, 02:09 PM

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I feel as if I was taken buy SNBC, they should have explained the differnce or did they.

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#500

Today, 02:11 PM

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Maybe we should put this to rest? Just saying with over 500 posts, I think its done.

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I think Eyal is providing us with cool looking watches at affordable prices regardless of where they are mostly

manufactured. I like Invicta and I will continue to purchase them. Thank you Eyal for your honest and lucid

post on this issue.

R

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#502

Today, 02:12 PM

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While I enjoy my Invictas and respect the leadership at Invicta... as some folks might say, let™s not get it all

twisted up in here•. There was not any official company response to the madness until the 400 thread post

mark and after a response had been solicited by most likely a company insider. And while I™m appreciative

for the response of sorts¦any fairly intelligent company leader (and sponsor of a product-oriented forum) would

attempt to do some damage control. Its called engaged sustainability of the overall marketing plan. I will

continue to buy Invicta if I see something I like...as always with any timpiece.

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#503

Today, 02:18 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike_NavyNuke

I am not a marketing major, but I have taken quite a few marketing and business classes during college; and

I can agree with Eyal 100%. Most companies do highlight the GOOD in their product. Almost no one

mentions the bad.

This is not very deceitful, it is MARKETING! That is why most people do research to buy things, because if

every one believed advertisements then they would always be disappointed in everything they buy. This is

true for almost all products marketed today. The deceit, IMO, comes from the fact that the 'misunderstanding'

of this was perpetuated on shopnbc and other sources this whole time. Yes, that is not OUR fault and it is

quite un-nerving. In Michael's defense, just because someone works for a company does not make them an

expert in all areas, so give Michael a break. I am sure he did not lie, but had an unintentional

misunderstanding. I work in Nuclear Power and you would be surprised at the stuff that most people just take

'other peoples word for it' and that comes the new standard knowledge even when completely false. Stuff like

this happens, and luckily we had Eyal Step in and set it straight.

Don't get me wrong, sometimes marketing can get a little unethical such as drug companies. However, in

some cases such as prescription drug ads, they are required (by law?) to list good AND bad parts/side effects

of their product. This is the exception, as most people do not. Just like my Acer Timeline Laptop battery that

was supposed to last 8+ hours. It lasts maybe 3 to 4 hours MAX brand new; however I am not calling

shenanigans on Acer here.

What you are saying about marketing may be true, that businesses often emphasize the positive and mininimize

the negative, but I don't think that's the case here. When Invicta knowingly attempts to enhance the perceived

value of a product by telling people their watch is Swiss, when it is not, they are misinforming people, plain

and simple. They aren't just promoting a good point and avoiding telling people about a bad point. Instead, they

are saying this watch has a good point that it doesn't possess. In my book, that's deceit.

If it were merely honest marketing, they wouldn't mention anything about where the non swiss watch was

made, and point out, instead, all of the other virtues of the watch. That's what Sturhling does. They mention it

has a swiss movement when it does. However, when it has a chinese made movement, they rarely mention

where it was made and instead, talk about its other qualities.

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#504

Today, 02:19 PM

heavyjumbo

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Quote:

Originally Posted by BabyDoc

I really doubt that anything will change. When you read Eyal's statement, do you read anything that sounds

the least bit apologetic? I don't.

In so many words, he states that all the watch companies are engaged in the same misrepresentations and

"that's marketing". With that kind of rationalization for what they are doing to increase their profits, do you

really expect them to change?

Eyal simply explained the differences between Swiss Made and Swiss and further added that watch companies,

such as Invicta, use the word Swiss as a marketing tool because the Asian movements are made or modeled

after Swiss watch engineering. Eyal did not comment on or address the statements made by Invicta

employes/representatives on ShopNBC live television which equate a "Swiss" marked watch as Swiss Made;

therefore, no apology was made.

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#505

Today, 02:25 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Nasty

Wow... That really is the exact opposite of what was said on air.

And it was repeated so many times for so long, that I highly doubt that Eyal did not know what was going on.

In fact he never corrected the misrepresentation and let the hosts continue say "Swiss" = "Swiss Made"

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#506

Today, 02:29 PM

VegasLee

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It is a watch. You like it, buy it, you don't, don't!

Is this anything like most AMERICAN MADE cars are mostly parts from other counties and many are not even

assembled in the U.S?

My nice American made Ford van has a nice sticker hidden on it stating it was built in Canada. Why was that

not printed on the window sticker?

I don't think anyone is trying to deceive or lie. It is just like most anything else in this country. Non Disclosure

is not lying. If that was the case pretty much everyone in this country would be lairs.

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#507

Today, 02:32 PM

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Swiss Court Interpretation of "SWISS MADE"

50% portion is not the sole criterion for determining the Swiss origin of a product. The origin of the essential

components and the manufacturing process through which a product obtains its characteristic features, and “ in

borderline or doubtful cases “ the origin of the intellectual property embodied in the

product and the special circumstances in the respective industry must also be taken into due

consideration.•

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#508

Today, 02:40 PM

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Eyal's reply confirms that Reserve timepieces marked 'Swiss' are not Swiss Made and do not case a Swiss

movement. So Reserve pieces no longer guarantee that the watch is Swiss Made. That is pretty sad in my book

as I am an Invicta supporter and love their watches.

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#509

Today, 02:40 PM

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Well now that that has been explained in detail,Why do I get the vibe that many people feel the Asian

versions are of inferior quality?

Are there quantifiable differences in the same movement manufactured in two different countries?

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#510

Today, 02:43 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by tampa8

To Everyone -----

First, a big Thank-you to Eyal for addressing this issue here with us.

Second, I beg everyone to carefully read the reply and let it sink in. If you have read my posts I am in no way

an appologist. But I can now see another side to this whole story, and to me Eyal was very honest with us,

more than many CEO's would be.

It can be argued, by putting just the word "Swiss" on the watches instead of "Swiss Made", Invicta was

actually being honest in that the watch is being produced differently. Further, I am reading it is the postion of

Invicta that they feel justified in calling it the same as "Swiss Made" in that the movements are Swiss

movements, from Swiss companies, but now being assembled in China. You may agree with or disagree with

their conclusion, but I feel better hearing the explanation, together with not continuing to use "Swiss Made"

on these watches. Maybe a little better explanation should have come our way sooner of what Mike meant,

but we now have it and I for one am glad it came, and feel better about the whole thing.

What you say makes sense PROVIDED that people stop making statements on air, on websites, or wherever

else that claim that "Swiss" means the same thing as "Swiss Made."

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#511

Today, 02:46 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Avery

Well now that that has been explained in detail,Why do I get the vibe that many people feel the Asian

versions are of inferior quality?

Are there quantifiable differences in the same movement manufactured in two different countries?

I don't know if I feel that the Asian versions are necessarily inferior. However, since the primary reason for

switching production to Asia tends to be cost reduction, one must evaluate how much an Asian produced watch

is worth relative to one produced in higher-cost Switzerland. For sure, I have no problem at all spending $700

for a Chinese tourbillon because there's no way I could afford a Swiss one of similar quality. So, IF the quality

is as good or bettter AND the cost savings are passed on, AND it is made perfectly clear what one is buying,

then I might be OK with it.

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#512

Today, 02:49 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by abduksion

Maybe we should put this to rest? Just saying with over 500 posts, I think its done.

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#513

Today, 02:49 PM

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Thank you for the reply Eyal.

I feel so much better. I no longer feel mislead. Knowing you made Mr. Davis say Swiss is the same as Swiss

Made is a relief. The rest of the ShopNBC staff can/should not be held at all responsible. Their job is to SELL

the product you supply.

You on the other hand will be held to a higher standard. (the buck stops with you)

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#514

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As I see it..........Most of the watches we purchase from Invicta are in the $75 to $2,000.00 range. The watches

are well made and worth the price. For me I like to know what the movement is and where it was made. I do

not not expect any of the Invicta's that I purchase (I own close to 100) to ever be auctioned at Christies so

keeping that in mind, knowing what I spent, I don't care where it was assembled! I know I'm going to get hit

with.....your missing the point!!! Perhaps I am! What I do ask...is any watch that sells for lets say $10,000.00

really worth the price because it is Swiss made????? That may also beg the same question, IS IT REALLY

SWISS MADE!!?? I give up!!! PS.....Is Swiss cheese only made in Switzerland??

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#515

Today, 03:17 PM

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Thanks Eyal. You have to read it a few time, but it becomes clearer with every reading.

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#516

Today, 03:33 PM

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Wow!!.. I watched the video. I would love to think it was just a mistake, but to have a reason that they could

not fit it in the six o'clock area and that it means swiss made seems a tad pemeditated. Not sure what to believe

on this one!

I could care less about Swiss Made. I think NFW makes one of the best watches around and they have the

Asian movts. and I never had a problem with an Asian movt. NFW all the way down to Casio. I am just a little

miffed to say the least about this entire fiasco. Mainly I am shocked that Swiss Made may not be 100% Swiss

Made Movt's and to claim that Swiss is the Same as Swiss made, right on a video at shop, and by the way, it's

not the first time I have heard that on a show from the hosts.

Shame...Shame...Shame!! If it was dishonesty, Shame, Shame, Shame if it was a mistake, the face of Invicta

should know the diff between Swiss and Swiss Made and where it fits!....Sorry!!

I am thankful to Eayl for the education and the truth!

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#517

Today, 03:45 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by timeman

I read Invicta's above statementt. I don't care if the watch has Swiss parts, if a watch company puts "Swiss"

on the dial it needs at least a "Swiss Made" movement period, that's the law according to the U.S. Custom

regulations. So if you are going to use Chinese movements with Swiss parts take "Swiss" off the dial, and

state the watch has a Swiss parts movement.

Agreed!

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#518

Today, 03:47 PM

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I just look at it like this... If it doesn't say SWISS MADE, it ain't. Period.

Everything else is semantics.

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#519

Today, 03:52 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlieB

I didn't say they were lying, I said they were not telling the truth. To say something that is not true is to not

tell the truth.

To intentionally not tell the truth is to lie. I don't know that it was intentional, so I never used the word lie.

However, the excuse of being mis-informed can not be used as an excuse. Eyal heads the company, and when

he goes on Shop and says without doubt or equivocation that Swiss is the same as Swiss Made when on an

Invicta dial, it is his responsibility to know for an absolute fact that that is true, that this information is 100%

correct.

The same holds for a person with the title of Technical Brand Manager, that title implies he has the technical

knowledge to be correct when he states Swiss equals Swiss Made.

I was merely asking a question, not acusing you (or anyone else) of anything.

On the original topic, at least some of us are partially to blame for "educating" ourselves at the company

trough. Again, I'm a bit surprised that much of this is news.

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#520

Today, 04:07 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Quickfeet Iv

Thanks Eyal. You have to read it a few time, but it becomes clearer with every reading.

Yes, it is crystal clear to me. Every time Eyal said that "Swiss" is the same as "Swiss Made" on SHOP NBC,

most likely was a deceitful, boldface lie.

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#521

Today, 04:13 PM

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Unless you have any further questions for Eyal, please do not post here...

Thank you... __________________

"There are Two Types of Pain in this World: The Temporary Pain of Discipline, or the Permanent Pain of

Regret"... GTWG

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#522

Today, 04:13 PM

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All I care about is that my watch has a creative unique design and bulit to a reliable standard. I would like it to

be Swiss Made but if not there is no deal breaker. I care more about the quality of the customer service rather

than if the movment was assembled in "Far East". Trust me I understand that many feel the exact oppsite so

please don't jump down my throat on this, I'm just stating how I feel.

I am greatful for the response from Eyal and glad that there is better clairity on this matter, do I think it is

crystal clear yet...No but better. I hope that the bigger picture can be addressed with Invicta and that is creating

better Customer Service and improving their quality control. I feel that improvements in those two areas will

retain and gain more customers. JMO!

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#523

Today, 04:14 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by GeorgeTheWatchGuy

Unless you have any further questions for Eyal, please do not post here...

Thank you... Sorry I have been reading the thread and didn't see your post.

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#524

Today, 04:18 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by GeorgeTheWatchGuy

Unless you have any further questions for Eyal, please do not post here...

Thank you... Eyal can you answer this question:

When Invicta has Swiss on the dial is it marketing hype to give the uniformed the impression the watch is

Swiss made or has a Swiss made movement; when in fact it has a Swiss parts movement assembled in China?

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#525

Today, 04:19 PM

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Yikes!

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I want to thank Eyal for posting on the topic it was above and beyond what I expected.

I love my Invicta watches I will continue to buy more, I have never purchased a watch with Swiss on the dial,

all of my Invicta's are Swiss Made and that's how I like it. I had a feeling this was the case the first time I saw

Swiss on the dial, I thought Why?

Now I think how they are labeled is WRONG if you are a trusting person you are getting taken and that is true

with lots of industries. It's not right but to many people's surprise we are not the biggest victim of all this! The

biggest victim is Jim He is a honest person he is on this forum constantly tirelessly answering questions, When

Jim tells me something I know it is true and some people might not think like that any more. (not me I would

bet anything he did not know and was going on the info provided by the MFG)

As for Mike well you would think that a Technical Brand Manager would know what movement was in what

watch, and as stated in another thread you must not question the scope of His knowledge on the Invicta

products.

Well one thing is true this argument did indeed reveal the truth!

Sorry George I was typing this while you posted your request.

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#527

Today, 04:39 PM

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It's like everything else that he constantly chants when he's on the air. Platinum waranty (forgets to mention

you pay for the priviledge or the extremely long wait), hand assembled (yeah right) and now Swiss made

(China). Mike and Jim are now having to answer for this guy as he gives us a lame answer without a hint of an

apology. BTW I have 2 of those Swiss watches with the Chinese movement. I just feel stupid even wearing

them now!

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#528

Today, 04:59 PM

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When I started this post I did not expect it to go on this long and elicit a direct response from Eyal Lalo.

I want to express my thanks to everyone who supported this thread, remained civil, and sought the truth.

I also have to give credit to the owners of the forum for letting us speak our mind eventhough it was probably

uncomfortable for them.

Here is my take, regarding Eyal Lalo's response:

Like someone earlier in the thread he tried to make the analogy with automobiles being manufactured all over

the world with parts from all over the world. As I stated previously that analogy is perfect for explaining the

difficulty of assigning country or origin to products produced in today's globalized marketplace.

But it has no bearing the issue at hand. In the case under discussion we are talking about certain guidelines that

must be met in order to label a watch Swiss or Swiss Made.

Invicta, Eyal Lalo, Jim Skelton, and Mike Davis claimed, and as far as I can tell, continue to claim that Invicta

watches marked Swiss meet the guidelines to be labeled Swiss Made.

I don't think anyone at this point can deny that their statements are false.

I didn't see anything in Eyal's statement that contradicted this - and I didn't get the idea after reading it that they

are going to stop making that claim.

What irritates me the most about all of this is the way those of us were treated when we raised this issue

previously. Michael Davis, on more than one occassion, alluded to us as conspiracy theorists who saw black

helicopters everywhere. He once wrote that we should make sure and wear our tin foil hats.

Most of us learned when we were young if you get caught in a lie its best to just fess up and tell the truth. If you

try and lie your way out of it you just end up telling more lies, losing your credibility, and saying really dumb

things.

For example:

Quote:

Originally Posted by meijin

....snip....I am not a salesman....snip

Quote:

Originally Posted by meijin

...snip...I am there and paid to be there as someone who can lend technical insight into a product that is

being sold by someone else.....snip...

Quote:

Originally Posted by meijin

..snip...At the end of the day, if I don't know something or I feel something is not correct (in regards to the

information that I have been given), I am going to tell you this....snip....

The statements above appear to be made someone in an attempt to distance themselves from a situation in

which they would probably be found liable for defrauding thousands of consumers of millions of dollars.

Some geeks appear to be of the mind that its no big deal - its just a watch afterall. I can assure you however, it

is no joking matter.

So the original question is still there.

Do the Invicta Reserve models now marked simply Swiss have movements assembled in Asia?

I suspect they do. This means that the Reserve Models touted as Swiss Made are probably 100% made in Asia

(China).

It is very shortsighted for Invicta to keep this up.

D

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#529

Today, 05:09 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Avery

Well now that that has been explained in detail,Why do I get the vibe that many people feel the Asian

versions are of inferior quality?

Are there quantifiable differences in the same movement manufactured in two different countries?

Actually China has come a long way and I have nothing against Chinese and Japanese movements whatsoever.

I have many of them and will continue to buy them in watches I desire. However, I knew when I buying them

what I was paying for and I knew going in they had these orient produced movements.

My "Swiss" Invicta's labeled as such I was told over and over were Swiss Made timepieces meeting the Swiss

Federation guidelines of Swiss Made, which include a Swiss movement as one of those benchmarks. I

remember asking Jim why did the Russian Diver's move away from the Swiss Made on the dial and just start

using Swiss, I figured they were no longer Swiss Made but at least still had a true Swiss movement in them at a

minimum. I was reassured all Russian Divers were Swiss Made (pre-costco sales) and should have searched

before hand because he has explained time and time again Swiss = Swiss Made when it comes to Invicta.

I am disgusted with this.

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#530

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It's also interesting to note that of the current vendors on SNBC, only Invicta touts Swiss made product. Wing,

Larry and Daniel have never made that a selling point because they're honest about it. Even Daniel, who's

creditability has been questioned in the past, has never passed off his watches as Swiss made.

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#531

Today, 05:32 PM

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Wow, I did not read all the post, but still feel dirty some how.

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#532

Today, 05:34 PM

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Question to Eyal, how much of the rest of the watch, beside the movement is swiss manufactured?

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#533

Today, 05:35 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by glasgow32

Wow, I did not read all the post, but still feel dirty some how.

im with you!

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#534

Today, 05:35 PM

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Thanks for the clarification

Quote:

Originally Posted by TeamInvicta

I have been asked to personally clarify the confusion with the markings on the watches. I feel I have a

confident and open enough relationship with our customers to make a clear statement and get this matter

clarified once and for all. While I know that it is impossible to satisfy everyone, it is our commitment to keep

a top level relationship with our very loyal customer base.

There is a definite gray area in the use of the words Swiss•, Swiss Made•, Swiss Movements•, Swiss

Parts•, Swiss Components•, and Swiss Registration•. The fact of the matter is that, like in many multiple-

componentproducts, where the country of origin adds value to the product, we tend to highlight that.

A perfect example is the auto industry. You might buy a Mercedes that is manufactured in Mexico using

German engineering, some German parts, etc. The brand focuses on highlighting their Germanstandards.

Much in the same way, the watch industry does when Swiss is present. Without mentioning brands, it is

important to understand that Switzerland almost produces NO watch components except parts associated

with the movements, and assembly. What this means is that if you bought a $6000.00 Swiss Made

Chronograph from Brand X•, what you are likely buying is a watch that houses a Swiss Made movement

(And even the movement components themselves have their own complicated breakdown value. For instance,

even if a movement is Swiss Made•, it does not mean every part in the movement was made in Switzerland,

only a given percentage of that ) and the watch was assembled and tested in Switzerland. We do the same,

and hopefully that brings clarity to everyone that when we mark a watch Swiss Made•, you are buying a

Swiss Made watch with a Swiss made movement, that is assembled in Switzerland.

Then we get into the way we use the word SWISS•. The the word Swisswas used on watches as a description

for a watch using a movement with Swiss part Origins. This includes movements that are bought from SWISS

COMPANIES, with SWISS ENGENEERING, that are tested in Switzerland, but has components that are sent

off to the Far East for cost purposes to be assembled. Examples of these are ETA, Ronda, ISA, Far East

versions•. They were developed to assist in delivering the consumer more value, on an otherwise identical

item. Today, the word Swiss is used on watches that are very inexpensive, because the brand used a Swiss

Movement Far East assembly version. Yes as companies we do call more attention to this than the fact that

the movement is assembled in China, but that™s marketing.

Then there is the talk about the Swiss Federation. I cannot speak too much into the Swiss Federation

standard because it is a private foreign entity, not a law dictating body, and we do not belong to it for a

variety of reasons I prefer not to go into. I respect companies developing a stamp of approval and charging

for it, such as COSC, but to be part of a group that develops standards on watches based on the direction of

the big playersin the watch industry, and attempting to apply them to smaller companies without giving them

a fair chance, is a monopoly, and I am strongly against that.

I make this statement on a personal level, and hope that it can bring some level of clarity to this discussion.

Sincerely,

Eyal

Eyal, thanks for the clarification and education. Some may still have issues but at least we know where you're

coming from. For the record, I wore a quartz S/N III into a high line jewelry store yesterday and following a

thorough inspection they thought I paid at least $3k. That's the real point of delivering unsurpassed value

regardless of where the watch is made or how it is labeled...provided we Geeks understand the nuances of the

labeling issue so thanks again for explaining.

The Menace

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#535

Today, 06:03 PM

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Questions for Eyal,

#1 What is the difference between Swiss parts movement and Swiss on a watch other than more sales for your

company.

#2 Why is the Technical Brand manager saying things on Shopnbc like there is no difference in the Swissness

of a watch that is labeled Swiss. Or you put the Swiss name at the 3 o'clock position instead of the 6 o'clock

position on a Russian diver because there is no room at the 6 o'clock position. NO ROOM! Give me a break it

is the largest faced Invicta watch out there you managed to squeeze the whole word swiss made on my Ocean

reef on either side of the 6.

Personally I will not by one of your watches that say Swiss on them and am thinking of persuing a refund on a

watch that I bought almost a year ago from Shopnbc that was misrepresented by yourself who said on national

air that the RD in question was all swiss.

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#536

Today, 06:16 PM

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Does the old saying, "Don't **** on my back and tell me it's raining" mean anything to anyone other than me?

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#537

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Eyal, thanks for your detailed explanation.

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#538

Today, 06:36 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Tempestx

Eyal, thanks for your detailed explanation.

Yeah, thanks for letting me know that my "Swiss Made" Pro Diver with diamonds is really a Chinese made

watch.

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#539

Today, 06:39 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by icewolf64

Questions for Eyal,

#1 What is the difference between Swiss parts movement and Swiss on a watch other than more sales for your

company.

#2 Why is the Technical Brand manager saying things on Shopnbc like there is no difference in the Swissness

of a watch that is labeled Swiss. Or you put the Swiss name at the 3 o'clock position instead of the 6 o'clock

position on a Russian diver because there is no room at the 6 o'clock position. NO ROOM! Give me a break

it is the largest faced Invicta watch out there you managed to squeeze the whole word swiss made on my

Ocean reef on either side of the 6.

Personally I will not by one of your watches that say Swiss on them and am thinking of persuing a refund on

a watch that I bought almost a year ago from Shopnbc that was misrepresented by yourself who said on

national air that the RD in question was all swiss.

AMEN!!! Enough with the misrepresentations about "SWISS" If it's not "Swiss made" don't put ANYTHING

on the dial

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#540

Today, 06:46 PM

MessalineApghar

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Tampa, I didn't take it that Eyal feels justified calling Swiss and Swiss Made the same in that post. Eyal says

"Today, the word Swiss is used on watches that are very inexpensive, because the brand used a Swiss

Movement Far East assembly version". I don't think he also feels that a "Swiss Made" watch is also generally

a very inexpensive watch. And in this post, I do feel that Eyal relays the message that Swiss doesn't equal

Swiss Made. Maybe I misunderstood the article. If so please chime in.

Kless,

I ABSOLUTELY agree with your assessment, And to

Eyal,

Thank you for responding personally to this thread, with candor & clarity.

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#541

Today, 06:50 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by WingMaster

Yeah, thanks for letting me know that my "Swiss Made" Pro Diver with diamonds is really a Chinese made

watch.

You're good. Invicta's labeled Swiss Made were not in question, they meet the Swiss Federation guidelines.

Just the Invicta's labeled Swiss being advertised, billed, and sold under the guise that they too are Swiss Made

is where the wheels fell off the wagon.

Enjoy your Pro-Diver.

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#542

Today, 06:54 PM

MessalineApghar

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Quote:

Originally Posted by icewolf64

Questions for Eyal,

#1 What is the difference between Swiss parts movement and Swiss on a watch other than more sales for your

company.

#2 Why is the Technical Brand manager saying things on Shopnbc like there is no difference in the Swissness

of a watch that is labeled Swiss. Or you put the Swiss name at the 3 o'clock position instead of the 6 o'clock

position on a Russian diver because there is no room at the 6 o'clock position. NO ROOM! Give me a break

it is the largest faced Invicta watch out there you managed to squeeze the whole word swiss made on my

Ocean reef on either side of the 6.

Personally I will not by one of your watches that say Swiss on them and am thinking of persuing a refund on

a watch that I bought almost a year ago from Shopnbc that was misrepresented by yourself who said on

national air that the RD in question was all swiss.

The way I understand it, and it might be a flawed understanding;

Swiss Made is still the Hallmark, the watch receives >50% of it's parts from swiss factories, is assembled and

QC'd in Switzerland.

Swiss-Movement = an entire ready-to-run movement that qualifies for "Swiss Made" but where it's not

integrated into the watch in Switzerland.

Swiss-parts-movement = Movement parts are made in Switzerland, but not assembled there. again, assembly is

probably farmed out to low-wage countries.

Swiss = a certain percentage of the parts in the watch are manufactured in Switzerland, and the point of

assembly is unknown, usually low-wage areas. In this case, the Swiss parts may be movement or case or band

or whatever.

Thats my take on it.

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#543

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Advice to Eyal. Just a note as mentioned before. Try and follow behind the way Daniel, Wing, Larry, and Lior

(Swiss Legend). When they put a Chinese, Japanese, or Swiss Movement they let you know what is inside

because they know most of there customers don't open the case backs. They are honest, honesty is the policy. I

hope you read this and have a change of heart, then a change in company procedures. It's not all about money at

the end of the day, it's about a clear conscience and pease of mind. Loyalty to your customers. Good Luck.

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#544

Today, 07:03 PM

WingMaster

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Kahuna Cowboy

You're good. Invicta's labeled Swiss Made were not in question, they meet the Swiss Federation guidelines.

Just the Invicta's labeled Swiss being advertised, billed, and sold under the guise that they too are Swiss

Made is where the wheels fell off the wagon.

Enjoy your Pro-Diver.

Seriously? I guess I'll go back and try to make sense of all this. Thanks.

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#545

Today, 07:06 PM

tampa8

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Quote:

Originally Posted by kless13

Tampa, I didn't take it that Eyal feels justified calling Swiss and Swiss Made the same in that post. Eyal says

"Today, the word Swiss is used on watches that are very inexpensive, because the brand used a Swiss

Movement Far East assembly version". I don't think he also feels that a "Swiss Made" watch is also generally

a very inexpensive watch. And in this post, I do feel that Eyal relays the message that Swiss doesn't equal

Swiss Made. Maybe I misunderstood the article. If so please chime in.

Hey Kless, the part that I found most telling, the one where I believe Invicta feels justified is this; (bold and

underline is mine)

"This includes movements that are bought from SWISS COMPANIES, with SWISS ENGENEERING, that are

tested in Switzerland, but has components that are sent off to the Far East for cost purposes to be assembled.

Examples of these are ETA, Ronda, ISA, Far East versions•. They were developed to assist in delivering the

consumer more value, on an otherwise identical item.

To me this says it all. Their take is, they are for all intent swiss parts, from swiss companies, being assembled

in Asia, only to save money and thus lower the price. One of my original posts on all this was actually exactly

this point. "Here's the problem. First, what do they mean by swiss made. Is it swiss made, say as an Omega, or

is it swiss made by some other calculation/meaning."

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#546

Today, 07:07 PM

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the swiss law does not state 51% parts for the ENTIRE watch, only the movement, and the "value" of the total

watch must be 50% swiss........what the hell does that mean? Is the cost of the engineering and design part of

that???? I believe Jim addressed this, and said most watch companies outsource most of the watch, parts

shipped to Swissland and assembled and inspected........Ive heard rumors that the Swiss goverment is trying to

change the law to 80% across the board, but so far only a rumor.

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#547

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I'm old enough to remember the difficulty GM got into by putting Chevrolet engines into Buicks.

I won't buy an Invicta unless it says Swiss Made.

"Reserve For those who know Best"

SailRacer

Last edited by SailRacer; Today at 07:09 PM. Reason: Typos

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#548

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TIME TO LOCK THIS DOWN!

Seems some people cannot keep it civil.

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#549

Today, 07:14 PM

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Originally Posted by nycruza

TIME TO LOCK THIS DOWN!

Seems some people cannot keep it civil.

Huh?

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#550

Today, 07:18 PM

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Uh..who isn't being civil? In no way should this thread be closed...in no way.

So many excellent points are being brought up here. And it's necessary.

Not to mention vital.

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Seems civil to me all things considered...

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#552

Today, 07:20 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Bahoomba

Uh..who isn't being civil? In no way should this thread be closed...in no way.

So many excellent points are being brought up here. And it's necessary.

Not to mention vital.

I second that motion. Keep it open.

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#553

Today, 07:21 PM

MessalineApghar

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Quote:

Originally Posted by MREXE

the swiss law does not state 51% parts for the ENTIRE watch, only the movement, and the "value" of the total

watch must be 50% swiss........what the hell does that mean? Is the cost of the engineering and design part of

that???? I believe Jim addressed this, and said most watch companies outsource most of the watch, parts

shipped to Swissland and assembled and inspected........Ive heard rumors that the Swiss goverment is trying

to change the law to 80% across the board, but so far only a rumor.

it means if the watch has 100 parts in the movement

each part has a specific production cost and therefore "value"

if every part of this 100-part example movement, had an equal value of $1, on a $100 movement, 51 parts and

$51 would meet the "Swiss-Movement" criteria.

to meet swiss-made, 51% of the cost of the movement's parts have to be made in switzerland.

in some cases this might be met by 2 parts out of 100, and in some cases it might be 90 parts out of 100.

a watch-owner would have no way to know how many parts (By count) in the movement are valued as "Swiss-

Made" & "Switzerland Assembly" other then 51% or more of the cash value of the parts.

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#554

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Eyal's description of the issue is exactly what I have always known it to be. Im cool. I know the russian divers

that say swiss and cost $100 bucks were assembled in asia. I know the SAS that says swiss made and cost

$300+ was assembled in Switzerland.

How did this become a massive thread - this is nothing new folks.

I own a full range of invicta's and love every one. Especially my new SANIV 7750.

BTW - if they make a SANIV w/ a miyota assembled in Bangkok for $199 I'd buy 'em all.

And so would you.

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#555

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To those that choose to not be civil like the ones using the XL letters in their type please find another thread.

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#556

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MessalineApghar

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Because it's better marketing to have "Swiss" on the dial that will sell more watches.

no. Being marked "Swiss" is actually a LOWER requirement then "Swiss Parts Movement"

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#557

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tampa8

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TIME TO LOCK THIS DOWN!

Seems some people cannot keep it civil.

I don't understand, still one of the most civil threads I can remember for such a passionate subject...

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#558

Today, 07:26 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by GeorgeTheWatchGuy

Unless you have any further questions for Eyal, please do not post here...

Thank you... Is Eyal coming back to answer the questions posted thus far?

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#559

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MessalineApghar

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Is Eyal coming back to answer the questions posted thus far?

Just a guess, but I believe he's probably "subscribed" to a thread he answered personally.

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#560

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Quote:

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Advice to Eyal. Just a note as mentioned before. Try and follow behind the way Daniel, Wing, Larry, and

Lior (Swiss Legend). When they put a Chinese, Japanese, or Swiss Movement they let you know what is inside

because they know most of there customers don't open the case backs. They are honest, honesty is the policy.

I hope you read this and have a change of heart, then a change in company procedures. It's not all about

money at the end of the day, it's about a clear conscience and pease of mind. Loyalty to your customers.

Good Luck.

yeah use renato as an example, they are the epitome of honest.......

limited edition renato anyone?

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#561

Today, 07:31 PM

MessalineApghar

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Originally Posted by oshuwah

Eyal's description of the issue is exactly what I have always known it to be. Im cool. I know the russian divers

that say swiss and cost $100 bucks were assembled in asia. I know the SAS that says swiss made and cost

$300+ was assembled in Switzerland.

How did this become a massive thread - this is nothing new folks.

I own a full range of invicta's and love every one. Especially my new SANIV 7750.

BTW - if they make a SANIV w/ a miyota assembled in Bangkok for $199 I'd buy 'em all.

And so would you.

Absolutely.

I want my OS20 SAS. for $199.

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#562

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Question to Eyal. Is the 5040E movement all Swiss Made?

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#563

Today, 07:40 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by MessalineApghar

no. Being marked "Swiss" is actually a LOWER requirement then "Swiss Parts Movement"

According to WHOM? ShopNBC hosts and the Invicta Technical Brand Manager specifically and

REPEATEDLY stated that SWISS was the same as SWISS MADE.

Presumably this was with Eyal's blessing, if not at his direction. Now, of course, after photographic proof to the

contrary was posted, these new definitions are being offered.

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#564

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Absolutely.

I want my OS20 SAS. for $199.

Funny.

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#565

Today, 07:46 PM

MessalineApghar

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Argabright

According to WHOM? ShopNBC hosts and the Invicta Technical Brand Manager specifically and

REPEATEDLY stated that SWISS was the same as SWISS MADE.

Presumably this was with Eyal's blessing, if not at his direction. Now, of course, after photographic proof to

the contrary was posted, these new definitions are being offered.

The laws regarding Origin of watches & movements, are clear, and posted elsewhere on the site. US Customs

has laws regarding this, as does the Swiss Government.

While I can't and won't argue what was said, because obviously there were either mistakes or outright

misleading claims made, I can say that the watches themselves are in all probability, properly marked.

now for my education, Has Invicta ever marked a watch marked as "Swiss Movement" or "Swiss Parts

Movement" ? I know they have marketed both "Swiss" and "Swiss-Made", but have they used any of the in-

between gradings ?

Oh and BTW, I know there have been companies that label and market as "ALL Swiss Made" . without owning

one, I can say that I'm sure these are the Breitlings and Rolexs of the world.

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#566

Today, 07:57 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by MessalineApghar

no. Being marked "Swiss" is actually a LOWER requirement then "Swiss Parts Movement"

You have it wrong my friend. If a manufacture follows the Swiss Federation definition of a Swiss made watch,

"Swiss Made" is the same as "Swiss" at the 6 o'clock hour marker. Both terms mean a Swiss Made watch.

If a manufacture is following the U.S. Custom regulations, the word "Swiss" at the 6 o'clock hour marker mean

the watch has a Swiss Made Movement, meaning Swiss parts assembled in Switzerland.

A movement that has Swiss parts and assembled outside Switzerland is your Swiss parts movement.

A watch is considered the best if it's Swiss Made, followed by one with a Swiss Made movement, and then one

with a Swiss parts movement. The value of a watch follows this same order.

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#567

Today, 08:00 PM

MessalineApghar

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You have it wrong my friend. If a manufacture follows the Swiss Federation definition of a Swiss made watch,

"Swiss Made" is the same as "Swiss" at the 6 o'clock hour marker. Both terms mean a Swiss Made watch.

If a manufacture is following the U.S. Custom regulations, the word "Swiss" at the 6 o'clock hour marker

mean the watch has a Swiss Made Movement, meaning Swiss parts assembled in Switzerland.

A movement that has Swiss parts and assembled outside Switzerland is your Swiss parts movement.

A watch is considered the best if it's Swiss Made, followed by one with a Swiss Made movement, and then one

with a Swiss parts movement. The value of a watch follows this same order.

Honestly, no sarcasm, thank you for the correction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by timeman

...A watch is considered the best if it's Swiss Made, followed by one with a Swiss Made movement, and then

one with a Swiss parts movement. The value of a watch follows this same order.

<< I knew that the SM-SMM-SPM were staged like that, I had reason to believe "Swiss" was a lower spec, a

4th tier if you get me, below even swiss-parts-movement.

my apologies for confusing anyone.

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#568

Today, 08:01 PM

rjaybass

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I have heard Jim say that in order for a watch to be Swiss Made it must be at least %51 Swiss parts and

assembled and inspected in Switzerland. That leaves alot of non Swiss parts in there. So.... any other

designation MUST be taken with several grains of salt. This entire broo ha has been much about very little..

IMO

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#569

Today, 08:04 PM

timeman

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Quote:

Originally Posted by MessalineApghar

Honestly, no sarcasm, thank you for the correction.

<< I knew that the SM-SMM-SPM were staged like that, I had reason to believe "Swiss" was a lower spec, a

4th tier if you get me, below even swiss-parts-movement.

my apologies for confusing anyone.

No problem my friend.

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#570

Today, 08:07 PM

watchluv

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Quote:

Originally Posted by rjaybass

I have heard Jim say that in order for a watch to be Swiss Made it must be at least %51 Swiss parts and

assembled and inspected in Switzerland. That leaves alot of non Swiss parts in there. So.... any other

designation MUST be taken with several grains of salt. This entire broo ha has been much about very little..

IMO

You left out the most important. The movement must be Swiss Made.

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#571

Today, 08:19 PM

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We should have a "Look what I REALLY got" thread in which we pop open are casebacks to reveal what's

really in our new Invicta!!!

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#572

Today, 08:26 PM

GeorgeTheWatchGuy

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This thread will remain open, as long as you honor the request I made eariler... No

more evaluations of Eyal's responce... Only direct questions for Eyal... This rehashing, & rehashing, of all your evaluations, is not helping getting any further

responses from him...If I'm having a hard time keeping up with this thread, how do you think he or his team are doing???

Thank you again for the last time!

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#573

Today, 09:18 PM

Scout13

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George,

Your the man, thanks for keeping th thread open. This is what a forum is for, the good and the bad should be

able to be discussed openly. Old or new info, does not matter, many people are very concerned and it's good to

let it all hang out..

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#574

Today, 09:51 PM

buddah00

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WOW That was a long and interesting read. I am still processing it all. Invicta makes up the majority of my

collection several of them are in the $800-$1500 range. I appreciate Eyal posting a response and I understand

marketing and have no problem with a company highlighting the aspects of a product that appeals to

consumers.

I don't understand and would like to know why we were told that Swiss = Swiss Made, when that is not the

case.

I am happy with my Invictas, I am eagerly awaiting the two SAN IV's I bought this weekend. (One quartz, one

automatic)

I just want to know what I am purchasing.

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#575

Today, 09:53 PM

blduckhockey

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I have one watch that I know is pure swiss made. A rolex explorer. When it was cleaned and tuned up a bit after

6 years, I asked the technician more or less as a joke was it a fake. He explained no way--talked about serial

numbers, the mark inside the back of the cae with the manufacture date that match up, the seal etc. markings on

the rotor and on. I got an education by just joking if it was a fake. I guess it is real!!!

But I buy a watch because I like how it looks and runs. I like Invictas. I guess because I have a true bottom of

the line swiss rolex, I could care where my Invicta was made.

That said---just tell the truth---I would buy anyway if I like it---the bottom line to me.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by GeorgeTheWatchGuy

This thread will remain open, as long as you honor the request I made eariler... No

more evaluations of Eyal's responce... Only direct questions for Eyal... This rehashing, & rehashing, of all your evaluations, is not helping getting any further responses from him...If I'm having a hard time keeping up with this thread, how do you think he or his team are doing???

Thank you again for the last time!

You are a gentleman and a scholar. This thread has kept the moderators busy. I've learned a lot and you guys

have kept it civil. Cheers.

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#577

Today, 10:05 PM

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I dunno...I guess the definitions always seemed clear to me, and I appreciate Eyal's clarification. I knew my

"lower-end" Invictas (Sport Python and the like) were Swiss Parts. My SANIII, Swiss Made. Never for a

minute thought, for example, that my Sea Spider Sport could *possibly* have been Swiss Made for the

price...even *if* it said "Swiss" on the dial. At some point, simple common sense has to kick in, and that old

adage of "you get what you pay for" applies.

It's simple. I buy Invictas for *affordability*, and do my homework before jumping on the phone or on the

Shop to buy ASAP the minute I see the first presentation. If I've had a doubt, I don't buy. If I've had a doubt, I

check the threads here and see what's out there regarding my prospective purchase. Above all, I've *never*

expected to pay less than $350 on a *good* day for a "Swiss Made" Invicta. Again, I'm *never* going to be

one of those folks lucky enough to have $3k or up to buy one of the *major* brands. Like other posters have

said, I look for the value that Invicta offers...if that means I save up and drop $350 for a Swiss Made watch,

having done my *own* homework to make sure it *is* Swiss Made so be it. If I drop $125 and get what *I*

consider to be a steal on a "swiss parts" watch, and I *love* the watch, so be it.

Seriously folks...at the end of the day, you're buying an Invicta, on a TV shopping channel...never will be a

Tag, or a Breitling, Patek Phillipe, or anything else. Not meaning to downplay what I consider to be the *value*

of Invicta, as I've been nothing but happy thus far with my purchases...but it's called perspective, folks...and

why most of us won't *touch* an Invicta above the $350 sweet-spot, no matter how much we may drool over it.

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#578

Today, 10:54 PM

ranger1482

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I'm happy to be a better educated consumer after all of this, and while I don't really agree with everything that

has been said, I love that we all have a place to debate topics such as this one.

I really don't care where a watch was made or where the parts came from, I want to love the look of the watch

and I want it to work for a long time. However, I am seriously having a trust issue right now. I need to feel that

I can trust the company and the store that I am shopping with.

I think the burning question for me is, "What is invicta and shopnbc going to do to regain my trust after this?"

Coming out and finally clarifying the truth is a start, but I also need to see apologies.

Truth is, I would have bought each of the watches I bought whether they said made in china, swiss made or

made in the USA. However, either due to a mistake or an attempt to mislead me, the products I bought were in

some cases were misrepresented...and as the customer, I have the right to ask "why?"

If I like the answers and feel they come from a man/woman of integrity, then I can live with what happened. If

I don't, then the brand loyality of myself and my father will no longer exist. I'm not saying I would never buy a

watch from Invicta again, but I would be extremely careful.

I only ask that anyone who takes the time to read my post to please understand that for me this isn't a matter of

Swiss vs Swiss Made and what each means. Rather this is an issue of trusting the people I send my money to.

ps - Thank you Jim for giving us a place to discuss this issue, thank you moderators for allowing this thread to

continue, and thank you Eyal for taking your time set us all straight on the facts.

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#579

Today, 11:05 PM

nycruza

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Yes, an Asian Movement can still equal "Swiss Made" watch, unless I am misinterpreting the following:

"In the case of products that have been only partly manufactured in Switzerland, the rule applies that the Swiss

portion of the production cost (including basic materials, semi-finished products, accessories, wages and

production overhead excluding distribution costs) must be at least 50%.

The Swiss portion of the production cost must be at least 50%. ¢ The most important part of the manufacturing

process must have taken place in Switzerland. The most important part of the manufacturing processis that part

of the process that results in a completely new product. The determining factor here is that the original

characteristics of the goods are lost through the manufacturing process, and the possible application of the

goods is different from that of the basic materials of foreign origin used in their manufacture."

In a watch/timepiece the part that results in a "completely new product" deals with CASE, BEZEL, DIAL.

Movements do NOT result in a "completely new product".

Therefore, a watch that meets the criteria above with a movement from ANYWHERE may be labeled "Swiss

Made".

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