Examined Life

100:00:00,523 --> 00:00:08,557The unexamined lifeis not worth living. -Plato

200:01:48,623 --> 00:01:51,057EXAMINED LIFE

300:01:51,723 --> 00:01:57,457[Man] "The unexamined life is notworth living," Plato says inLine 38A of the Apology.

400:01:57,528 --> 00:02:00,554How do you examine yourself?What happens when youinterrogate yourself?

500:02:00,631 --> 00:02:03,828What happens when you beginto call into question...

600:02:03,901 --> 00:02:07,530your tacit assumptionsand unarticulated presuppositions,

700:02:07,605 --> 00:02:11,132and begin then to becomea different kind of person?

800:02:15,246 --> 00:02:17,908See, I put it this way.That for me,

900:02:17,982 --> 00:02:21,383

I mean, philosophyis fundamentally about...

1000:02:21,452 --> 00:02:24,114our finite situation.

1100:02:25,289 --> 00:02:28,918We can define that in terms ofwe're beings toward death,

1200:02:28,993 --> 00:02:32,793and we're featherless, two-legged,linguistically conscious creaturesborn between urine and feces...

1300:02:32,864 --> 00:02:36,322whose body will one daybe the culinary delightof terrestrial worms.

1400:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,460That's us.We're beings toward death.

1500:02:39,537 --> 00:02:44,736At the same time, we have desirewhile we are organismsin space and time,

1600:02:44,809 --> 00:02:47,141and so it's desirein the face of death.

1700:02:47,211 --> 00:02:51,875And then of course,you've got dogmatism,various attempts to hold on to certainty,

1800:02:51,949 --> 00:02:56,852various forms of idolatry,and you've got dialoguein the face of dogmatism.

1900:02:56,921 --> 00:03:00,220And then of course,structurally and institutionallyyou have domination...

2000:03:00,291 --> 00:03:02,156and you have democracy.

2100:03:02,226 --> 00:03:05,491You have attempts of peopletying to render accountable...

2200:03:05,563 --> 00:03:10,523elites, kings, queens, suzerians,corporate elites, politicians,

2300:03:10,601 --> 00:03:14,935trying to make these elitesaccountable to eveyday people.

2400:03:15,006 --> 00:03:17,804So philosophy itself becomes...

2500:03:17,875 --> 00:03:19,809a critical disposition...

2600:03:19,877 --> 00:03:22,209of wrestling with desirein the face of death,

2700:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,511

wrestling with dialoguein the face of- of dogmatism,

2800:03:25,583 --> 00:03:30,043and wrestling with democracy-trying to keep alive very fragiledemocratic experiments-

2900:03:30,121 --> 00:03:32,055in the face of structuresof domination;

3000:03:32,123 --> 00:03:35,456patriarchy, white supremacy,imperial power,

3100:03:35,526 --> 00:03:38,393um- uh, state power.

3200:03:38,462 --> 00:03:41,761All those concentrated formsof power...

3300:03:41,833 --> 00:03:46,202that are not accountable to peoplewho are affected by them.

3400:03:47,533 --> 00:03:55,340The first step towardsphilosophy is incredulity. -Diderot

3500:04:15,600 --> 00:04:17,830[Woman]So, can you hear me well?

3600:04:17,902 --> 00:04:20,928[Astra Taylor]

And you can speak to me, so-Good. Vey good.

3700:04:21,005 --> 00:04:24,168Wonderful. Okay.

3800:04:24,242 --> 00:04:28,838So I was trying to figure outwhat you were getting meinto here,

3900:04:29,981 --> 00:04:33,644and how we're implicatedin this walk.

4000:04:33,718 --> 00:04:38,678I was going to interview youand ask you what you thoughtyou were doing.

4100:04:38,756 --> 00:04:42,590I'm specifically thinking aboutthe challenge of making a filmabout philosophy,

4200:04:42,660 --> 00:04:46,926which, um, obviouslyhas a spoken element,

4300:04:46,998 --> 00:04:49,125but is typically written.

4400:04:49,200 --> 00:04:53,762And book form allows youto explore something so in-depth,

4500:04:53,838 --> 00:04:58,707

you know, 300, 400, 500 pagesexploring a single concept,

4600:04:58,776 --> 00:05:03,236whereas in a feature-length filmyou have 80 minutes...

4700:05:03,314 --> 00:05:05,782in the form of speechthat's been recorded.

4800:05:05,850 --> 00:05:08,318And in the case of this film,each person has 10 minutes.

4900:05:08,386 --> 00:05:10,320Yes, that is scandalous.

5000:05:10,388 --> 00:05:12,879I can understand that the otherswould have 10 minutes,

5100:05:12,957 --> 00:05:15,983but to- to bring me downto 10 minutes...

5200:05:16,060 --> 00:05:18,426is an outrage-there's no doubt about it.

5300:05:18,496 --> 00:05:23,399The thing is, we don't knowwhere this film is going to land,

5400:05:23,467 --> 00:05:26,561whom it's going to shake up,wake up,

5500:05:26,637 --> 00:05:29,697or freak out, or bore.

5600:05:29,774 --> 00:05:33,904But even boredom,as an offshoot of melancholy,would interest me...

5700:05:33,978 --> 00:05:39,109as a responseto these dazzling utterancesthat we're producing.

5800:05:39,183 --> 00:05:44,587But I- I would say that,even if philosophy-

5900:05:44,655 --> 00:05:48,614And don't forget that Heideggerditched philosophy for thinking,

6000:05:48,693 --> 00:05:50,888'cause he thought philosophyas such...

6100:05:50,962 --> 00:05:54,398was still too institutional,academic,

6200:05:54,465 --> 00:05:57,696too bound up in knowledgeand results,

6300:05:57,768 --> 00:06:00,601too cognitively inflected.

6400:06:00,671 --> 00:06:04,300So he asked the question,"What is called thinking?"

6500:06:04,375 --> 00:06:07,367And he had a lot to say about walks,

6600:06:07,445 --> 00:06:10,414about going on pathsthat lead nowhere.

6700:06:10,481 --> 00:06:13,348One of his important textsis called Holzwege,

6800:06:13,417 --> 00:06:15,977which means a paththat leads nowhere.

6900:06:16,053 --> 00:06:19,352In Greek, the word for pathis methodos.

7000:06:19,423 --> 00:06:21,414So we're on the path.

7100:06:26,964 --> 00:06:29,728[Astra Taylor]One thing I want to ask youabout is meaning.

7200:06:29,800 --> 00:06:33,065Is philosophy a search for meaning?

7300:06:33,137 --> 00:06:35,435[Ronell]

I'm very suspicious historically...

7400:06:35,506 --> 00:06:39,135and intellectuallyof the promise of meaning,

7500:06:39,210 --> 00:06:41,610because meaning...

7600:06:41,679 --> 00:06:45,274has often had very fascistoid,

7700:06:45,349 --> 00:06:47,977non-progressivist edges,

7800:06:48,052 --> 00:06:51,453if not a core of that sort of thing.

7900:06:51,522 --> 00:06:55,185Excuse me. Um-

8000:06:55,259 --> 00:06:57,284So that vey often,

8100:06:57,361 --> 00:07:00,592also the emergency suppliesof meaning...

8200:07:00,664 --> 00:07:05,294that are broughtto a given incident or structure...

8300:07:05,369 --> 00:07:08,964or theme in one's lifeare cover-ups,

8400:07:09,040 --> 00:07:13,477are a way of dressingthe wound of non-meaning.

8500:07:13,544 --> 00:07:17,036I think it's very hardto keep things...

8600:07:17,114 --> 00:07:21,016in the tensional structureof the openness,

8700:07:21,085 --> 00:07:26,022whether it's ecstatic or not,of non-meaning.

8800:07:26,090 --> 00:07:29,423That's very, very difficult,which is why there is then...

8900:07:29,493 --> 00:07:34,988the quick grasp fora transcendental signifier,

9000:07:35,066 --> 00:07:39,059for God, for nation, for patriotism.

9100:07:39,136 --> 00:07:42,594It's been very devastating,this, um-

9200:07:42,673 --> 00:07:44,664this craving for meaning,

9300:07:45,676 --> 00:07:49,874though it's something with which

we are in constant negotiation.

9400:07:49,947 --> 00:07:53,508Everyone wants somethinglike meaning.

9500:07:53,584 --> 00:07:56,553But when you see these dogs play,

9600:07:56,620 --> 00:07:58,986[Growling]why reduce it to meaning...

9700:07:59,056 --> 00:08:02,321rather than just seethe arbitrary eruption...

9800:08:02,393 --> 00:08:05,954of somethingthat can't be grasped or explicated,

9900:08:06,030 --> 00:08:07,964but it's just there...

10000:08:08,032 --> 00:08:11,524in this kind of absolutecontingency of being.

10100:08:14,672 --> 00:08:16,606To leave things open...

10200:08:16,674 --> 00:08:20,872and radically inappropriableand something-

10300:08:20,945 --> 00:08:24,346

and admittingwe haven't really understood...

10400:08:24,415 --> 00:08:28,647is much less satisfying,more frustrating,

10500:08:28,719 --> 00:08:31,187and more necessary,I think, you know.

10600:08:31,255 --> 00:08:33,815And that's whyI think a lot of people...

10700:08:33,891 --> 00:08:39,124have been fed and fueledby promises...

10800:08:39,196 --> 00:08:43,496of immediate gratificationin thought...

10900:08:43,567 --> 00:08:46,434and food and junk, and so on-

11000:08:46,504 --> 00:08:49,132junk thought, junk food,and so on.

11100:08:50,107 --> 00:08:52,234So the- the-

11200:08:52,309 --> 00:08:56,006There's a politics of refusingthat gratification.

11300:08:56,080 --> 00:09:00,949And I know that's crazy-making,but I think that's wherewe have to pull the brakes.

11400:09:11,795 --> 00:09:13,729[Astra Taylor]Some people might be troubled,or might wonder,

11500:09:13,797 --> 00:09:18,257how do you behave ethicallyif there's no ultimate meaning?

11600:09:18,335 --> 00:09:22,533Precisely where thereisn't guaranteed...

11700:09:22,606 --> 00:09:25,575or palpable meaning,

11800:09:25,643 --> 00:09:31,013you have to do a lot of workand you have to be mega-ethical,

11900:09:31,081 --> 00:09:34,482'cause it's much easierto live life and know...

12000:09:34,552 --> 00:09:38,955that well, that you shouldn't do,and this you should do,because someone said so.

12100:09:39,023 --> 00:09:42,584If we're not anxious,if we're okay with things,

12200:09:42,660 --> 00:09:45,754we're not trying to exploreor figure anything out.

12300:09:45,829 --> 00:09:48,992So anxiety is the mood,par excellence,

12400:09:49,066 --> 00:09:52,092of- of-

12500:09:52,169 --> 00:09:54,797of ethicity, I think, you know.

12600:09:54,872 --> 00:09:59,104Now, I'm not prescribinganxiety disorder for anyone.

12700:09:59,176 --> 00:10:02,839However, could you imagine Mr. Bush,who doesn't give a shit...

12800:10:02,913 --> 00:10:05,882when he sends everyoneto the gas chamber...

12900:10:05,950 --> 00:10:10,114or the, um, electric chair?

13000:10:10,187 --> 00:10:12,417He expresses no anxiety.

13100:10:12,489 --> 00:10:15,481And they're very proud of this.They don't lose a wink of sleep.

13200:10:15,559 --> 00:10:17,925They express no anxiety.

13300:10:19,797 --> 00:10:22,129This is somethingthat Derrida has taught.

13400:10:22,199 --> 00:10:26,499If you feel that you've acquittedyourself honorably,

13500:10:26,570 --> 00:10:28,504then you're not so ethical.

13600:10:28,572 --> 00:10:32,338If you have a good conscience,then you're kind of worthless.

13700:10:32,409 --> 00:10:35,742Like, if you think-"Oh, I gave this homeless personfive bucks.

13800:10:35,813 --> 00:10:38,680I'm great"-then you're irresponsible.

13900:10:38,749 --> 00:10:41,684The responsible beingis one who thinks...

14000:10:41,752 --> 00:10:44,414they've never beenresponsible enough.

141

00:10:44,488 --> 00:10:48,185They've never taken care enoughof the Other.

14200:10:48,259 --> 00:10:51,922The Other is so in excess...

14300:10:51,996 --> 00:10:56,558of anything you can understandor grasp or reduce.

14400:10:56,634 --> 00:11:00,263This in itself createsan ethical relatedness-

14500:11:00,337 --> 00:11:02,703a relation without relation,'cause you don't know-

14600:11:02,773 --> 00:11:05,537You can't presume to knowor grasp the Other.

14700:11:05,609 --> 00:11:09,773The minute you think you knowthe Other, you're ready to kill them.

14800:11:09,847 --> 00:11:11,815You think,"Oh, they're doing this or this.

14900:11:11,882 --> 00:11:16,080They're the axis of evil.Let's drop some bombs."

15000:11:16,153 --> 00:11:20,613But if you don't know,

you don't understand this alterity,

15100:11:20,691 --> 00:11:26,357it's so Other that you can't violate itwith your sense of understanding,

15200:11:26,430 --> 00:11:29,228then, um,

15300:11:29,300 --> 00:11:32,394you have to let it live,in a sense.

15400:12:05,803 --> 00:12:09,136This is the center of one ofthe world's richest countries...

15500:12:09,206 --> 00:12:11,140and one of the mostexpensive places there,

15600:12:11,208 --> 00:12:13,403and that raises an ethical issue.

15700:12:13,477 --> 00:12:16,844I mean, there are people who havethe money to buy at these stores...

15800:12:16,914 --> 00:12:21,613and who don't seem to see any kindof moral problem doing that.

15900:12:21,685 --> 00:12:26,179But what I want to ask is,well, shouldn't they see somesort of moral problem about that?

16000:12:26,256 --> 00:12:29,817Isn't there a question aboutwhat we should be spendingour money on?

16100:12:32,329 --> 00:12:37,596So we're outside Bergdorf Goodman,where they've got a displayof Dolce & Gabbana shoes.

16200:12:37,668 --> 00:12:41,263And it's kind of amusing to mebecause about 30 years ago,

16300:12:41,338 --> 00:12:44,398I wrote an article called"Famine, Affluence, and Morality"...

16400:12:44,475 --> 00:12:46,409in which I imagined...

16500:12:46,477 --> 00:12:49,105that you're walkingpast a shallow pond,

16600:12:49,179 --> 00:12:54,082and as you walk past ityou notice there's a small childwho's fallen into the pond...

16700:12:54,151 --> 00:12:56,085and seems to be in dangerof drowning,

16800:12:56,153 --> 00:12:59,748and you look around to seewhere the parents are,

and there's nobody in sight.

16900:12:59,823 --> 00:13:05,056You realize that unless you wadeinto this pond and pull the child out,

17000:13:05,129 --> 00:13:07,120the child is likely to drown.

17100:13:07,197 --> 00:13:10,655There's no danger to youbecause you know the pondis just a shallow one,

17200:13:10,734 --> 00:13:13,828but you are wearinga nice pair of shoes...

17300:13:13,904 --> 00:13:17,601and they're probablygonna get ruined if you wadeinto that shallow pond.

17400:13:17,674 --> 00:13:20,973So, of course, when I askpeople this, they always say,

17500:13:21,044 --> 00:13:26,380"Well, of course, forget aboutthe shoes. You've just got tosave the child. That's clear."

17600:13:26,450 --> 00:13:29,886And then I stop and say,"Okay, you know,I agree with you about that.

177

00:13:29,953 --> 00:13:32,786"But for the priceof a pair of shoes,

17800:13:32,856 --> 00:13:37,725"if you were to give thatto Oxfam or UNICEFor one of those organizations,

17900:13:37,795 --> 00:13:43,097"they could probably savethe life of a child, maybe morethan one child in a poor county,

18000:13:43,167 --> 00:13:46,068"where children are dying becausethey can't get basic medical care...

18100:13:46,136 --> 00:13:51,438to treat very basic diseases like diarrheaor whatever else it might be."

18200:13:51,508 --> 00:13:54,477And that's really one of the reasonswhy I think it's interesting...

18300:13:54,545 --> 00:13:58,311to be here on 5th Avenuetalking about ethics,

18400:13:58,382 --> 00:14:02,512because ethics is aboutthe basic choices that we oughtto make in our lives,

18500:14:02,586 --> 00:14:06,078and one of those choicesis how do we spend our money.

18600:14:50,701 --> 00:14:54,432[Singer]I started thinking aboutthese issues back in the 1970s...

18700:14:54,505 --> 00:14:57,872when, for one thing,there was the crisis in Bangladesh...

18800:14:57,941 --> 00:15:01,274where there were millions of peoplewho were in danger of starving...

18900:15:01,345 --> 00:15:06,715because of the repressionof the Bangladeshisby the Pakistani Army at the time.

19000:15:06,783 --> 00:15:11,811And that made me thinkabout our obligations to help peoplewho are in danger of starvation.

19100:15:11,889 --> 00:15:16,792Also around the same time,I happened to meet someonewho was a vegetarian,

19200:15:16,860 --> 00:15:21,490who, uh, got me asking myself about,

19300:15:21,565 --> 00:15:23,624am I justified in continuing to eat meat?

19400:15:23,700 --> 00:15:27,568What is it that gives us the right,

or that justifies us,

19500:15:27,638 --> 00:15:30,436in treating animalsthe way they get treated...

19600:15:30,507 --> 00:15:34,341before they end up on our lunchor dinner or whatever it might be?

19700:15:34,411 --> 00:15:38,347And I read a little bit aboutfactory farming,

19800:15:38,415 --> 00:15:40,542intensive farms,and the way they confine animals,

19900:15:40,617 --> 00:15:45,145which was somethingthat was really just gettinggoing at that stage.

20000:15:45,222 --> 00:15:48,658And I thought thatyou can't really justify this,

20100:15:48,725 --> 00:15:52,786that we've just takenfor granted the idea...

20200:15:52,863 --> 00:15:57,800that somehow humanshave the right to use animalswhichever way they want to.

20300:15:57,868 --> 00:16:01,668

And that isn't defensible.

20400:16:01,738 --> 00:16:05,970The boundary of speciesis not something that reallyis so morally significant...

20500:16:06,043 --> 00:16:08,637that it entitles usto take another sentient being...

20600:16:08,712 --> 00:16:10,873who can suffer or feel pain,

20700:16:10,948 --> 00:16:13,746and do as we wishwith that sentient being...

20800:16:13,817 --> 00:16:17,275just because we happen to likethe taste of its flesh.

20900:16:17,354 --> 00:16:21,757So these two issues really gotme thinking about Applied Ethics,

21000:16:21,825 --> 00:16:26,888which at this time in the beginningof the 1970s wasn't really a field.

21100:16:26,964 --> 00:16:32,163It wasn't really somethingthat philosophers thoughtwas properly philosophy.

21200:16:32,235 --> 00:16:35,363But I think it was a good time

to start thinking about these issues...

21300:16:35,439 --> 00:16:38,101because of the student movement,

21400:16:38,175 --> 00:16:41,008the radical movementof the '60s and early '70s...

21500:16:41,078 --> 00:16:45,742which had created a bit more interestin these issues and raised the question,

21600:16:45,816 --> 00:16:51,152can we make our academic studiesmore relevant to the importantquestions ofthe day?

21700:16:57,794 --> 00:17:00,228When you do apply ethics,

21800:17:00,297 --> 00:17:04,757you often find that thinking thingsthrough leads you to challengecommon-sense morality.

21900:17:04,835 --> 00:17:09,067And of course, this isconsistent with a very ancientphilosophical tradition.

22000:17:09,139 --> 00:17:12,165It's exactly what happenedwith Socrates...

22100:17:12,242 --> 00:17:15,575when he started asking people about,

"What is justice?"

22200:17:15,646 --> 00:17:18,012And they thoughtthey knew what justice is,

22300:17:18,081 --> 00:17:21,539and then they startedthinking about it,

22400:17:21,618 --> 00:17:23,643and they realizedthey didn't understand it.

22500:17:23,720 --> 00:17:28,885And of course,Socrates ended up having-being forced to drink the hemlock...

22600:17:28,959 --> 00:17:32,759because he was accusedof corrupting the moralsof the youth.

22700:17:32,829 --> 00:17:36,925Now, fortunately that doesn't happento philosophers today.

22800:17:37,000 --> 00:17:41,528But it could well be saidthat from a conservative point of view,

22900:17:41,605 --> 00:17:44,096Applied Ethics does corrupt morals-

23000:17:44,174 --> 00:17:48,770"Corrupt" is the wrong word.

But it certainly challenges morals...

23100:17:48,845 --> 00:17:52,008and might lead us to thinkdifferently about some things...

23200:17:52,082 --> 00:17:55,279that we have held very dearfor a long time.

23300:17:57,621 --> 00:18:00,351A lot of people think thatyou can only have ethical standards...

23400:18:00,424 --> 00:18:02,654if in some way you're religious,

23500:18:02,726 --> 00:18:06,127you believe that there's a godwho handed down some commandments...

23600:18:06,196 --> 00:18:10,292or inspired some scriptureswhich tell you what to do.

23700:18:10,367 --> 00:18:12,801I don't believe in any of that.

23800:18:12,869 --> 00:18:16,134I think ethicshas to come from ourselves,

23900:18:16,206 --> 00:18:18,766but that doesn't meanthat it's totally subjective,

240

00:18:18,842 --> 00:18:23,370that doesn't mean thatyou can think whatever you likeabout what's right or wrong.

24100:18:25,048 --> 00:18:27,949When you start to lookat issues ethically,

24200:18:28,018 --> 00:18:30,816you have to do more than just thinkabout your own interests.

24300:18:30,887 --> 00:18:35,221You have to ask yourself,how do I take into accountthe interests of others?

24400:18:35,292 --> 00:18:40,992What would I chooseif I were to be in their positionrather than in my position?

24500:18:58,448 --> 00:19:01,212One of the most obvious thingsthat emerges...

24600:19:01,284 --> 00:19:04,481when you put yourselfin the position of others...

24700:19:04,554 --> 00:19:09,514is the priority of reducingor preventing suffering,

24800:19:09,593 --> 00:19:12,926because ethics is not just about...

24900:19:12,996 --> 00:19:16,193what I actually doand the impact of that,

25000:19:16,266 --> 00:19:22,227but it's also about what I omit to do,what I decide not to do.

25100:19:22,305 --> 00:19:26,935And that's why, questions about-given that we all havea limited amount of money-

25200:19:27,010 --> 00:19:29,638questions about what you spendyour money on...

25300:19:29,713 --> 00:19:32,580are also questions aboutwhat you don't spend your money on,

25400:19:32,649 --> 00:19:35,948or what you don't useyour money to achieve.

25500:19:38,421 --> 00:19:40,821They just say,"Oh, well, I'm not harming anyone...

25600:19:40,891 --> 00:19:45,851if I go and spenda thousand dollars on a new suit."

25700:19:45,929 --> 00:19:50,662But, uh, in fact,given the opportunitiesthat we have to help...

25800:19:50,734 --> 00:19:52,668and given the way the world is,

25900:19:52,736 --> 00:19:56,297I think that quite oftenyou're actually...

26000:19:56,373 --> 00:19:59,137are failing to benefit someone,which you could be doing.

26100:19:59,209 --> 00:20:04,943I think we have moral obligationsto help just as we havemoral obligations not to harm.

26200:20:42,619 --> 00:20:46,578[Singer]Over the thousands of years of historyand development of philosophy,

26300:20:46,656 --> 00:20:50,217a lot of philosophers have asked,"Does life have a meaning?What is it?"

26400:20:50,293 --> 00:20:53,956And that's a question for whichI think we can give an answer.

26500:20:54,030 --> 00:20:57,329And I think the answer is,we make our lives most meaningful...

26600:20:57,400 --> 00:21:02,702when we connect ourselves

with some really important causesor issues.

26700:21:02,772 --> 00:21:05,639And we contribute to that,so that we feel that...

26800:21:05,709 --> 00:21:10,578because we lived,something has gone a little betterthan it would have otherwise.

26900:21:10,647 --> 00:21:15,141We've contributed,in however small a way,to making the world a better place.

27000:21:15,218 --> 00:21:20,246And I think it's hard to find anythingmore meaningful than doing that,

27100:21:20,323 --> 00:21:25,625than reducing the amountof unnecessary pain and sufferingthat there's been on this world,

27200:21:25,695 --> 00:21:30,394or making the world a little bitbetter for all of the beingswho are sharing it with us.

27300:22:20,517 --> 00:22:23,418[Appiah]I started thinking aboutthe difference between...

27400:22:23,486 --> 00:22:26,853the context in which

we evolved as a species...

27500:22:26,923 --> 00:22:30,882and the present, you know,in this age of globalization.

27600:22:30,961 --> 00:22:35,091And one way to think about thatis to notice that...

27700:22:35,165 --> 00:22:39,568if you live a modern life,if you're travelingthrough an airport,

27800:22:39,636 --> 00:22:41,934you're gonna be passinglots and lots of people,

27900:22:42,005 --> 00:22:46,032and within a few minutesyou'll have passed more people...

28000:22:46,109 --> 00:22:48,373than most of our remotehuman ancestors...

28100:22:48,445 --> 00:22:51,278would ever have seenin their entire lives.

28200:22:55,518 --> 00:23:00,649As an American, you existin this kind of virtual relationshipwith 300 million people.

28300:23:00,724 --> 00:23:05,127

If you're lucky enough to be Chinese,your virtual relationshipsare with, you know,

28400:23:05,195 --> 00:23:08,323soon, one and a half billion peopleor something like that.

28500:23:08,398 --> 00:23:12,095So I think that's-that's a way of dramatizing,

28600:23:12,168 --> 00:23:14,261I think, the challengethat we face.

28700:23:14,337 --> 00:23:18,273We're- We're good at small,face-to-face stuff.

28800:23:18,341 --> 00:23:20,275That's what we were made for.

28900:23:20,343 --> 00:23:23,938We know how to be responsiblefor children and parents...

29000:23:24,014 --> 00:23:26,710and cousins and friends.

29100:23:26,783 --> 00:23:30,048But we now have to be responsiblefor fellow citizens,

29200:23:30,120 --> 00:23:33,647both of our countryand fellow citizens of the world.

29300:23:33,723 --> 00:23:36,521And the question is,can we figure that out?

29400:23:48,371 --> 00:23:51,499which means citizen of the cosmos,of the world.

29500:23:51,574 --> 00:23:55,032And we need a notionof global citizenship.

29600:23:58,314 --> 00:24:01,806The cosmopolitan says,we have to begin by recognizingthat we're responsible...

29700:24:01,885 --> 00:24:04,649collectively, for each other,as citizens are.

29800:24:04,721 --> 00:24:06,518But second,

29900:24:06,589 --> 00:24:11,026cosmopolitans think that it'sokay for people to-to be different.

30000:24:11,094 --> 00:24:13,289That they care about everybody,

30100:24:13,363 --> 00:24:17,459but not in a way that meansthey want everybody to bethe same, or like them.

30200:24:17,534 --> 00:24:22,437Whereas, there's a certain kindof philosophical universalism,

30300:24:22,505 --> 00:24:26,464which is often associatedwith evangelizing religions, where,

30400:24:26,543 --> 00:24:29,979"Yeah, we love everybody,but we want them to become like us...

30500:24:30,046 --> 00:24:32,310in order to love them properly."

30600:24:32,382 --> 00:24:37,342There's a great German proverbwhich says-

30700:24:40,723 --> 00:24:44,853"If you don't want to be my brother,I'll bash your skull in."

30800:24:44,928 --> 00:24:47,954And that's- that's the oppositeof cosmopolitanism.

30900:24:48,031 --> 00:24:51,728It's the universalist who says,"Yeah, I want you to be my brother,but on my terms."

31000:24:55,605 --> 00:25:00,542Now, if you think that everybody'sentitled to be different, right,

31100:25:00,610 --> 00:25:04,341it can produce a kind of culturalrelativism, in which you say,

31200:25:04,414 --> 00:25:06,507"Whatever they want to do,that's fine.

31300:25:06,583 --> 00:25:10,644"There's no place for me standingoutside to make any moral judgments,

31400:25:10,720 --> 00:25:12,915any ethical judgments,about what they're up to."

31500:25:14,691 --> 00:25:18,491So that's kind of one positionthat I want to distinguish myself from.

31600:25:18,561 --> 00:25:20,791I think that it's very important...

31700:25:20,864 --> 00:25:26,166that in the global conversationof human beingsthat cosmopolitans recommend,

31800:25:26,236 --> 00:25:28,295one of the things we're doing...

31900:25:28,371 --> 00:25:30,464is exchanging ideas aboutwhat's right and wrong,

32000:25:30,540 --> 00:25:33,407

and that it's perfectlyappropriate to do so.

32100:25:44,587 --> 00:25:48,216I have this privilege of havinggrown up in a couple of places.

32200:25:48,291 --> 00:25:50,384My mother came from England.My father came from Ghana.

32300:25:50,460 --> 00:25:52,428And they would never,either of them,

32400:25:52,495 --> 00:25:56,556tell us exactly how they metor exactly what it wasthat drew them to each other,

32500:25:56,633 --> 00:26:01,866though my father always saidthat my mother hada splendidly un-English behind.

32600:26:01,938 --> 00:26:03,667That it was-

32700:26:03,740 --> 00:26:07,107She actually had a more African behindand he found that attractive.So I don't know.

32800:26:07,177 --> 00:26:11,546It happens that in the shantywhere I grew up, kinship-that is, the family-

32900:26:11,614 --> 00:26:14,777is organized in a very different wayfrom the way thatit's organized in England.

33000:26:14,851 --> 00:26:17,479We're what anthropologistscall matrilineal.

33100:26:17,554 --> 00:26:21,513That means that the mostimportant adult malein a child's life...

33200:26:21,591 --> 00:26:26,756isn't, um, his mother's husband,that is, his father.

33300:26:26,829 --> 00:26:29,798It's his mother's brother,his maternal uncle.

33400:26:29,866 --> 00:26:32,096There's a word for that; wofa.

33500:26:32,168 --> 00:26:37,231So I have, uh- uh,these eight people in the world,

33600:26:37,307 --> 00:26:39,867two- two young women...

33700:26:39,943 --> 00:26:42,571and six young menwho are my nephews and nieces.

338

00:26:42,645 --> 00:26:46,137I'm their wofa.And by our tradition, I'm-

33900:26:46,216 --> 00:26:48,650Since my sisters don't haveany other brothers,

34000:26:48,718 --> 00:26:51,346I'm the guy who's responsiblefor their education.

34100:26:51,421 --> 00:26:54,584If anything bad happens to them,I'm supposed to look after themand so on.

34200:26:54,657 --> 00:26:59,356Um, now of course, in England,if you have a father, that's his job.

34300:27:02,165 --> 00:27:04,861There's a certain kindof universalist who will say,

34400:27:04,934 --> 00:27:06,993"One of these has to be correct."

34500:27:07,070 --> 00:27:09,436But the cosmopolitan saysthese are two ways of doing it,

34600:27:09,505 --> 00:27:12,406and as long as they do the thingthey're supposed to do,

34700:27:12,475 --> 00:27:15,672

it seems to me absurd to suggestthat one has to be betterthan the other,

34800:27:15,745 --> 00:27:19,340or that one should be universalizedfor any reason.

34900:27:28,725 --> 00:27:33,719One thing that people talk aboutall the time these days is conflictsof values across cultures,

35000:27:33,796 --> 00:27:36,959and often people think they'rekind of inevitably irreconcilable...

35100:27:37,033 --> 00:27:39,866and that they're the root ofall the difficulties in the world.

35200:27:39,936 --> 00:27:41,870And I- The first way, I think,

35300:27:41,938 --> 00:27:47,240you need to work to disentangleall the problems of that way of thinking...

35400:27:47,310 --> 00:27:52,873is to recognize the huge diversityof values by which people are guided.

35500:27:56,552 --> 00:27:59,783We're different.The cosmopolitan thinkswe're entitled to be different,

356

00:27:59,856 --> 00:28:02,416and that it's permissible thatthere should be differencesin certain ways.

35700:28:02,492 --> 00:28:07,555But the cosmopolitan also assumesthe fact that there are allthese different kinds of values...

35800:28:07,630 --> 00:28:09,598and the fact thatwe can recognize so many of them...

35900:28:09,666 --> 00:28:13,067is a recollection of the factthat we're all human beings,

36000:28:13,136 --> 00:28:17,630that we share whatyou might call a moral nature.

36100:28:26,582 --> 00:28:30,916[Appiah] Our responsibilitiesaren't just to a hundred peoplewhom we can interact with and see.

36200:28:30,987 --> 00:28:32,750And that's, I think,the great challenge.

36300:28:32,822 --> 00:28:36,087Cosmopolitanism, for me,is meant to be an answerto that challenge.

36400:28:36,159 --> 00:28:38,627It's meant to say...

36500:28:38,695 --> 00:28:41,596you can't retreat to the hundred.

36600:28:41,664 --> 00:28:46,101You can't simply be partialto some tiny group...

36700:28:46,169 --> 00:28:48,660and simply live outyour moral life in that.

36800:28:48,738 --> 00:28:51,366That's not-That's not morally permissible.

36900:28:51,441 --> 00:28:55,741But you can't abandonyour local group either,

37000:28:55,812 --> 00:28:59,441because that wouldtake you too far away, I think,from your humanity.

37100:28:59,515 --> 00:29:03,110So what we have to dois to learn how to do both.

37200:29:54,771 --> 00:29:58,571[Nussbaum]Aristotle had the ingredientsof a theory of justice...

37300:29:58,641 --> 00:30:00,905that I think is very powerful.

37400:30:00,977 --> 00:30:04,504And that is that it's the job ofa good political arrangement...

37500:30:04,580 --> 00:30:07,515to provide eachand every person...

37600:30:07,583 --> 00:30:10,814with what they needto become capable...

37700:30:10,887 --> 00:30:14,015of living richand clourishing human lives.

37800:30:16,426 --> 00:30:18,485Now, of course,he didn't include all the people,

37900:30:18,561 --> 00:30:22,622but he at least had that ideaof supporting human capability...

38000:30:22,698 --> 00:30:25,360that's the foundationof my own approach.

38100:30:25,435 --> 00:30:29,030Now then, in the 17thand 18th centuries,

38200:30:29,105 --> 00:30:32,802a very powerful new approachcame on the scene,

383

00:30:32,875 --> 00:30:35,309and that wasthe social contract approach-

38400:30:35,378 --> 00:30:38,643Hobbes, Locke, Rousseau, Kant.

38500:30:38,714 --> 00:30:42,150The social contract approachwas inspired...

38600:30:42,218 --> 00:30:46,177by the background cultureof feudalism,

38700:30:46,255 --> 00:30:50,282where all opportunitieswere distributed unequally...

38800:30:50,359 --> 00:30:52,793to people according to their class,

38900:30:52,862 --> 00:30:56,093their inherited wealth,and their status.

39000:30:56,165 --> 00:31:01,000And so what these theorists said istry to imagine human beings...

39100:31:01,070 --> 00:31:04,233stripped of all thoseinherited advantages,

39200:31:04,307 --> 00:31:07,333placed in what they calledthe "state of nature,"

39300:31:07,410 --> 00:31:12,211where they had only their natural bodyand their physical advantages,

39400:31:12,281 --> 00:31:15,910and try to imaginewhat kind of arrangementsthe would actually make.

39500:31:23,159 --> 00:31:26,219The social contract tradition is,of course,

39600:31:26,295 --> 00:31:29,162an academic,philosophical tradition,

39700:31:29,232 --> 00:31:33,726but it also has tremendous influenceon popular culture...

39800:31:33,803 --> 00:31:36,601and our general public life.

39900:31:36,672 --> 00:31:39,937Because we-Every day we hear things like,

40000:31:40,009 --> 00:31:43,570"Oh, those peopledon't pay their own way."

40100:31:43,646 --> 00:31:46,615Or, supportingsome new group of people,

40200:31:46,682 --> 00:31:50,209"Well, they'll be a dragon our economy."

40300:31:50,286 --> 00:31:55,223So the idea that the good memberof society is a producer...

40400:31:55,291 --> 00:32:01,127who contributes advantageto everyone, that is very-a very live idea.

40500:32:01,197 --> 00:32:06,464And it lies behindthe decline of welfare programsin this county.

40600:32:06,536 --> 00:32:11,098I think it lies behind many Americans'skepticism about Europe,

40700:32:11,173 --> 00:32:13,266about European social democracy.

40800:32:13,342 --> 00:32:16,368You hear terms likethe "Nanny State,"

40900:32:16,445 --> 00:32:19,710as though there were something wrongwith the idea of maternal care...

41000:32:19,782 --> 00:32:23,513as a conception of what societyactually does.

41100:32:23,586 --> 00:32:28,683Um, we also see it in another wayin images of who the real man is.

41200:32:28,758 --> 00:32:33,218The real man is sort of like thesepeople in the state of nature.

41300:32:33,296 --> 00:32:35,321He doesn't deeply need anyone.

41400:32:35,398 --> 00:32:40,335He isn't bound to anyoneby ties of love and compassion.

41500:32:40,403 --> 00:32:43,463He's the loner who can gohis own way...

41600:32:43,539 --> 00:32:45,700and then out of advantage,

41700:32:45,775 --> 00:32:50,405he'll choose to have certain kindsof social arrangements.

41800:32:59,322 --> 00:33:04,726The theorists of the social contractmade certain assumptionsthat aren't always true.

41900:33:04,794 --> 00:33:07,160They assumed that the partiesto this contract...

42000:33:07,229 --> 00:33:11,962

really are roughly equalin physical and mental power.

42100:33:12,034 --> 00:33:14,127Now, that was fine...

42200:33:14,203 --> 00:33:19,402when you're thinking about adult menwith no disabilities,

42300:33:19,475 --> 00:33:22,740but as some of them alreadybegan to notice,

42400:33:22,812 --> 00:33:25,280it doesn't do so wellwhen you think about women,

42500:33:25,348 --> 00:33:30,217because women's oppressionhas always been partly occasioned...

42600:33:30,286 --> 00:33:32,982by their physical weakness,compared to men.

42700:33:33,055 --> 00:33:36,286And so if you leave outthat physical asymmetry,

42800:33:36,359 --> 00:33:40,420you may be leaving out a problemthat a theory of justicewill need to fix.

42900:33:40,496 --> 00:33:44,660But it certainly does not do well

when we think about justice...

43000:33:44,734 --> 00:33:49,194for people with serious physicaland mental disabilities.

43100:33:49,271 --> 00:33:51,967And in fact, some of the theoristswho noticed that said,

43200:33:52,041 --> 00:33:55,875"Well, this is a problem,but we'll just have to solve it later.

43300:33:55,945 --> 00:34:00,575We'll get the theory first,then we'll work on this problemat some other point."

43400:34:00,650 --> 00:34:05,451Well, my thought isthat this is not a small problem.

43500:34:05,521 --> 00:34:09,423There are a lot of people with seriousphysical and mental disabilities.

43600:34:09,492 --> 00:34:12,256But not only that,but it's all of us-

43700:34:12,328 --> 00:34:17,231when we're little childrenand as we age.

43800:34:17,299 --> 00:34:21,702How do you think about justice

when you're dealing with bodies...

43900:34:21,771 --> 00:34:26,435that are very, very unequalin their ability and their power?

44000:34:26,509 --> 00:34:28,568And perhaps even harder,

44100:34:28,644 --> 00:34:30,612how do you think about itwhen you're dealing with...

44200:34:30,680 --> 00:34:35,344mental powers that are very, veryunequal in their potential?

44300:34:35,418 --> 00:34:39,684And I think that this isa really serious political problem.

44400:34:39,755 --> 00:34:45,250We have only just beganto understand how to educatechildren with disabilities,

44500:34:45,327 --> 00:34:48,763how to think abouttheir political representation,

44600:34:48,831 --> 00:34:53,131how to design citiesthat are open to them.

44700:34:53,202 --> 00:34:57,866I mean, this bridge we walkedacross, a person in a wheelchair

can go over that bridge.

44800:34:57,940 --> 00:35:00,602But, you know, 50 years agothat would not have been the case.

44900:35:00,676 --> 00:35:05,875There would have been steps,and that person could not getto see this beautiful lakeshore.

45000:35:19,295 --> 00:35:23,425The capabilities approach,as I've developed itas a theory of justice,

45100:35:23,499 --> 00:35:26,764begins with the ideathat all human beings...

45200:35:26,836 --> 00:35:29,737have an inherent dignity...

45300:35:29,805 --> 00:35:32,433and require life circumstances...

45400:35:32,508 --> 00:35:36,171that are worthy of that dignity.

45500:35:38,080 --> 00:35:41,538The areas of life that seem to meparticularly important...

45600:35:41,617 --> 00:35:44,916when we thinkabout the capabilities are;

45700:35:44,987 --> 00:35:49,014of course lifeis the very most basic one;

45800:35:49,091 --> 00:35:52,891bodily health; bodily integrity;

45900:35:52,962 --> 00:35:57,524the development of the senses,imagination and thought;

46000:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,535the developmentof practical reasoning;

46100:36:00,603 --> 00:36:04,334the development of affiliations,both more informal,

46200:36:04,406 --> 00:36:09,070in the family and friendshipbut also in the political community;

46300:36:09,145 --> 00:36:12,546the developmentof the ability to play...

46400:36:12,615 --> 00:36:15,379and have recreational opportunities;

46500:36:15,451 --> 00:36:17,442the ability to have relationships...

46600:36:17,520 --> 00:36:22,924with other creaturesand the world of nature;

46700:36:22,992 --> 00:36:26,587developing emotional capabilities,

46800:36:26,662 --> 00:36:29,062because I think a lot of theoriesleave out the fact...

46900:36:29,131 --> 00:36:33,625that we don't want to have livesthat are filled with fear,for example.

47000:36:38,908 --> 00:36:42,708In my view, people get togetherto form a society...

47100:36:42,778 --> 00:36:45,440not because they're afraid...

47200:36:45,514 --> 00:36:48,449and they want to strike a dealfor mutual advantage,

47300:36:48,517 --> 00:36:52,749but it's much more out of love...

47400:36:52,822 --> 00:36:58,158that they want to join with othersin creating a worldthat's as good as it can be.

47500:37:15,811 --> 00:37:18,746[Astra Taylor]So, do you have to go to schoolto be a philosopher?

47600:37:18,814 --> 00:37:21,783[ West ]Oh, God, no. Thank Godyou don"t have to go to school.

47700:37:21,851 --> 00:37:24,786No. A philosopher is a loverof wisdom.

47800:37:24,854 --> 00:37:27,687It takes tremendous discipline,it takes tremendous courage...

47900:37:27,756 --> 00:37:29,747to think for yourself,to examine yourself.

48000:37:29,825 --> 00:37:33,022The Socratic imperative ofexamining yourself requires courage.

48100:37:33,095 --> 00:37:36,929William Butler Yeats used to sayit takes more courage...

48200:37:36,999 --> 00:37:41,800to examine the dark cornersof your own soul than it doesfor a soldier to fight on the battlefield.

48300:37:41,871 --> 00:37:44,465Courage to think critically.You can't talk-

48400:37:44,540 --> 00:37:47,805Courage is the enabling virtuefor any philosopher,

48500:37:47,877 --> 00:37:50,141for any human being,I think in the end.

48600:37:50,212 --> 00:37:52,271Courage to think,courage to love,courage to hope.

48700:37:57,653 --> 00:38:01,919Plato says philosophy is a meditationon and a preparation for death.

48800:38:01,991 --> 00:38:04,186And by death,what he means is not an event,

48900:38:04,260 --> 00:38:08,196but a death in lifebecause there's no rebirth,

49000:38:08,264 --> 00:38:11,665there's no change,there's no transformationwithout death.

49100:38:11,734 --> 00:38:15,101And therefore, the question becomes,how do you learn how to die?

49200:38:15,170 --> 00:38:17,968And of course, Montaigne talksabout that in his famous essay,

49300:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,736"To Philosophize Is to Learn

How to Die."

49400:38:20,809 --> 00:38:24,472You can't talk about truthwithout talking about learninghow to die.

49500:38:28,684 --> 00:38:31,551I believe that Theodor Adornowas right when he says...

49600:38:31,620 --> 00:38:35,488that the condition of truthis to allow suffering to speak.

49700:38:35,557 --> 00:38:40,221That gives itan existential emphasis, you see.

49800:38:40,296 --> 00:38:43,026So we're really talkingabout truth as a way of life...

49900:38:43,098 --> 00:38:45,692as opposed to simply truthas a set of propositions...

50000:38:45,768 --> 00:38:49,135that correspond to a setof things in the world.

50100:38:52,608 --> 00:38:54,838Human beings are unable...

50200:38:54,910 --> 00:38:58,869to ever gain any monopolyon Truth, capital "T"

50300:38:58,948 --> 00:39:02,850We might have access to truth,small "t," but they're fallibleclaims about truth.

50400:39:02,918 --> 00:39:06,445We could be wrong.We have to be opento revision and so on.

50500:39:06,522 --> 00:39:09,389So there is a certain kind of mysterythat goes hand-in-hand with truth.

50600:39:09,458 --> 00:39:13,895This is why so manyof the existential thinkers,be they religious,

50700:39:13,963 --> 00:39:17,023like Meister Eckhartor Paul Tillich,

50800:39:17,099 --> 00:39:20,933or be they secular,like Camus and Sartre,

50900:39:21,003 --> 00:39:25,702that they're accenting our finitudeand our inability to fully grasp...

51000:39:25,774 --> 00:39:28,834the ultimate nature of reality,the truth about things.

51100:39:28,911 --> 00:39:33,712

And therefore,there, you talk about truth...

51200:39:33,782 --> 00:39:36,342being tied to the way to truth,

51300:39:37,686 --> 00:39:40,587because once you give upon the notion...

51400:39:40,656 --> 00:39:44,592of fully graspingthe way the world is,

51500:39:44,660 --> 00:39:49,757you're gonna talk about what arethe ways in which I can sustainmy quest for truth.

51600:39:51,367 --> 00:39:54,996How do you sustain a journey,a path toward truth,the way to truth?

51700:39:55,070 --> 00:39:58,471So the truth talk goes hand-in-handwith talk about the way to truth.

51800:39:58,540 --> 00:40:00,599And scientists could talk about thisin terms of, you know,

51900:40:00,676 --> 00:40:04,544inducing evidenceand drawing reliable conclusionsand so forth and so on.

520

00:40:04,613 --> 00:40:07,173Religious folk could talk about thisin terms of...

52100:40:07,249 --> 00:40:10,309surrendering one's arroganceand pride...

52200:40:10,386 --> 00:40:13,617in the face of divine revelationand what have you.

52300:40:13,689 --> 00:40:17,648But they're always of acknowledgingour finitude and our fallibility.

52400:40:22,064 --> 00:40:26,125I want all of the rich,historical colorations...

52500:40:26,201 --> 00:40:30,228to be manifestin talking about our finitude.

52600:40:30,305 --> 00:40:33,331Being born of a woman...

52700:40:33,409 --> 00:40:38,346in stank and stench-what I call "funk."

52800:40:38,414 --> 00:40:41,042Being introduced to the funkof life in the womb...

52900:40:41,116 --> 00:40:43,983and the love-push that gets you out.

53000:40:44,053 --> 00:40:46,886Right? And then your bodyis not just death-

53100:40:46,955 --> 00:40:50,413The way Vico talks about it.And here Vico was so much betterthan Heidegger.

53200:40:50,492 --> 00:40:52,687Vico talks about itin terms of being a corpse.

53300:40:52,761 --> 00:40:54,820See, Heidegger didn't talkabout corpses.

53400:40:54,897 --> 00:40:58,628He talks about death.It's still too abstract.

53500:40:58,700 --> 00:41:00,964Absolutely. Read the poetryof John Donne.

53600:41:01,036 --> 00:41:04,665He'll tell you about corpsesthat decompose.

53700:41:04,740 --> 00:41:06,503Well, see, that's history.

53800:41:06,575 --> 00:41:10,033That's the raw funky,stanky stuff of life.

53900:41:10,112 --> 00:41:13,206That's what bluesmen do.See, that's what jazzmen do.

54000:41:17,719 --> 00:41:20,517See, I'm a bluesmanin the life of the mind.

54100:41:20,589 --> 00:41:24,252I'm a jazzmanin the world of ideas.Therefore for me, music is central.

54200:41:24,326 --> 00:41:26,590So when you're talking about poetry,for the most part,

54300:41:26,662 --> 00:41:30,792Plato was talking primarilyabout, uh, words,

54400:41:30,866 --> 00:41:35,235whereas I talk about notes,I talk about tone,I talk about timbre,

54500:41:35,304 --> 00:41:37,795I talk about rhythms.

54600:41:37,873 --> 00:41:40,740You see, for me,music is fundamental.

54700:41:40,809 --> 00:41:43,209Philosophy must go to schoolnot only with the poets.

54800:41:43,278 --> 00:41:46,611Philosophy needs to go to schoolwith the musicians.

54900:41:46,682 --> 00:41:51,210Keep in mind, Plato bansthe flute in the republicbut not the lyre.

55000:41:52,955 --> 00:41:55,389Why?Because the flute appeals...

55100:41:55,457 --> 00:41:57,982to all of these various sidesof who we are...

55200:41:58,060 --> 00:42:01,223given his tripartite conceptionof the soul;

55300:42:01,296 --> 00:42:04,732the rational and the spiritedand the appetitive.

55400:42:04,800 --> 00:42:08,531And the flute is- appealsto all three of those,

55500:42:08,604 --> 00:42:12,370where he thinks the lyreon one string, it only appeals to oneand therefore is permissible.

55600:42:12,441 --> 00:42:15,569Now of course, the irony iswhen Plato was on his deathbed,

what did he do?

55700:42:15,644 --> 00:42:19,944Well, he requested the Thracian girlto play music on the flute.

55800:42:24,319 --> 00:42:28,221I'm a Christian, but I'm not a puritan.I believe in pleasure.

55900:42:28,290 --> 00:42:33,455And orgiasmic pleasure has its place.Intellectual pleasure has its place.Social pleasure has its place.

56000:42:33,529 --> 00:42:37,522Televisual pleasure has its place.You know, I like certain TV shows.

56100:42:37,599 --> 00:42:40,261My God, when it comes to music- Oh!

56200:42:40,335 --> 00:42:45,136You know, Beethoven's32nd Sonata, Opus 111.

56300:42:45,207 --> 00:42:48,574Unbelievable aesthetic pleasure.

56400:42:48,644 --> 00:42:51,738The same would be true forCurtis Mayfield or the Beatlesor what have you.

56500:42:55,117 --> 00:43:00,487There's a certain pleasure of the lifeof the mind that cannot be denied.

56600:43:00,556 --> 00:43:02,990It's true that you might besocially isolated,

56700:43:03,058 --> 00:43:05,720because you're in the library,at home, and so on,

56800:43:05,794 --> 00:43:08,228but you're intensely alive.

56900:43:08,297 --> 00:43:10,458In fact, you're much more alivethan these folk...

57000:43:10,532 --> 00:43:13,092walking these streetsof New York in crowds...

57100:43:13,168 --> 00:43:18,800with just no intellectual interrogationand questioning going at all.

57200:43:18,874 --> 00:43:23,436But if you read, you know, JohnRuskin or you read a Mark Twain,

57300:43:23,512 --> 00:43:26,345or, my God, Herman Melville,

57400:43:26,415 --> 00:43:28,383you almost have to throw the bookagainst the wall...

57500:43:28,450 --> 00:43:32,944

because you're almostso intensely alivethat you need a break.

57600:43:33,021 --> 00:43:34,989[Astra Taylor]You get electrified.Exactly.

57700:43:35,057 --> 00:43:38,288It's time to take a break andget a little dullness in your life.

57800:43:38,360 --> 00:43:43,696Take Moby Dick, throw it againstthe wall the way Goethe threwvon Kleist's work against the wall.

57900:43:43,765 --> 00:43:46,290It was just too much.It made Goethe-

58000:43:46,368 --> 00:43:49,337It reminded Goethe ofthe darkness that he was escaping...

58100:43:49,404 --> 00:43:52,271after he overcamethose suicidal impulses...

58200:43:52,341 --> 00:43:54,502with Sorrows of Young Wertherin the 1770s...

58300:43:54,576 --> 00:43:58,410that made his move towardneoclassicism in Weimar.

58400:43:58,480 --> 00:44:02,246There are certain thingsthat make us too alive almost.

58500:44:02,317 --> 00:44:06,048It's almost like being too intenselyin love. You can't do anything.[Chuckles]

58600:44:06,121 --> 00:44:10,251It's hard to get back the Kronos.It's hard to get back the everyday life,you know what I mean?

58700:44:10,325 --> 00:44:13,886That chirotic dimension of beingin love with another person,

58800:44:13,962 --> 00:44:17,261everything is so meaningful,you want to sustain it.It's true.

58900:44:17,332 --> 00:44:20,768You can't just do it, you know.You gotta go to the bathroom,have a drink of water. Shit.

59000:45:21,296 --> 00:45:25,164For my generation in the mid-'80swhen I was in my 20s...

59100:45:25,233 --> 00:45:28,532just starting to do politicsin a serious way,

59200:45:28,603 --> 00:45:31,595

it seemed like the only way to-

59300:45:31,673 --> 00:45:34,437the only outlet for revolutionay desirewas to go to Central America...

59400:45:34,509 --> 00:45:39,412and to somehow participate in,or at least observe, their revolutions.

59500:45:39,481 --> 00:45:42,746I mean, so a lot of peoplewent to Nicaragua.

59600:45:42,818 --> 00:45:47,755I, with my friends, was mostlyinterested in El Salvador.

59700:45:47,823 --> 00:45:50,621But the, um- the thing I realizedat a certain point...

59800:45:50,692 --> 00:45:55,629was that all we could dois really observe whattheir revolutions were.

59900:45:55,697 --> 00:46:00,896And the defining moment for mecame in a meeting in El Salvador...

60000:46:00,969 --> 00:46:03,938with a group of, uh, studentsat the University of El Salvador.

60100:46:04,005 --> 00:46:07,532And at a certain point,

a friend there said,

60200:46:07,609 --> 00:46:10,806"Look, we're really gratefulfor these North American comradeswho come to help us,

60300:46:10,879 --> 00:46:13,814"but we really- what wouldbe really best for us...

60400:46:13,882 --> 00:46:16,908"is if you all would go homeand make revolution in the U.S.

60500:46:16,985 --> 00:46:19,453That would really be betterthan trying to come help us here."

60600:46:19,521 --> 00:46:23,719And it was true, of course.I don't think any of theseNorth Americans were particularly helpful...

60700:46:23,792 --> 00:46:25,919in Nicaragua and El Salvador, et cetera.

60800:46:25,994 --> 00:46:29,054Um, and- But I said at that point-

60900:46:29,131 --> 00:46:31,122"You know, Reagan's in the White House.

61000:46:31,199 --> 00:46:35,101I have no idea what it would meanto make revolution in the U.S.I just don't have any-"

61100:46:35,170 --> 00:46:37,263And then he said, "Look, don'tyou have mountains in the U.S.?"

61200:46:37,339 --> 00:46:39,773And I said, "Yeah. We have mountains."He says, "It's easy.

61300:46:39,841 --> 00:46:44,005"You go to the mountains.You start an armed cell.You make revolution."

61400:46:44,079 --> 00:46:46,172And I thought, "Oh, shit."You know.

61500:46:46,248 --> 00:46:49,183It just didn't correspondto my reality.

61600:46:49,251 --> 00:46:53,381Like those notions ofconstructing the armed cell,

61700:46:53,455 --> 00:46:57,789especially constructing the armed cellin the mountains and then sabotaging things.

61800:46:57,859 --> 00:47:02,558It didn't- It didn't make any sense at all,so we really had no idea how to do it.

61900:47:02,631 --> 00:47:04,997Um, not justwe didn't know practically-

62000:47:05,066 --> 00:47:08,627like we didn't know which riflesto take up into the mountains.

62100:47:08,703 --> 00:47:12,867It's-The whole ideaof what it involved was lacking,

62200:47:12,941 --> 00:47:17,173um, and requireda real conceptual rethinking.

62300:47:56,451 --> 00:48:00,888We're stuck conceptually, I think,between two almost cliche waysof thinking revolution today.

62400:48:00,956 --> 00:48:03,891On the one hand, we have...

62500:48:03,959 --> 00:48:06,928the notion of revolutionthat involves...

62600:48:06,995 --> 00:48:10,431the replacement of a ruling elite...

62700:48:10,499 --> 00:48:12,694with another...

62800:48:12,767 --> 00:48:15,031better, in many ways, ruling elite.

62900:48:15,103 --> 00:48:18,869And that's in fact the form

that many of the modernrevolutions have taken...

63000:48:18,940 --> 00:48:23,274and have posed great benefitsfor the people, et cetera,but they have not arrived at democracy.

63100:48:23,345 --> 00:48:27,748And so that notion of revolutionis really discredited,and I think rightly so.

63200:48:27,816 --> 00:48:31,149But opposed to thatis another notion of revolution,

63300:48:31,219 --> 00:48:34,313which I think is equallydiscredited from exactlythe opposite point of view,

63400:48:34,389 --> 00:48:38,553which is the notion of revolution-that, in fact hasn't been instituted-

63500:48:38,627 --> 00:48:42,119that thinks of revolutionas just the removal...

63600:48:42,197 --> 00:48:45,997of all of those forms of authority-

63700:48:46,067 --> 00:48:48,501state power, the power of capital-

63800:48:48,570 --> 00:48:52,666

that stop people from expressingtheir natural abilities to rule themselves.

63900:48:55,844 --> 00:48:59,644The question of human naturehas long been a thingof political philosophy.

64000:48:59,714 --> 00:49:04,981In fact, I'm sure everyone hadsome stupid evening in collegesmoking way too much and talking,

64100:49:05,053 --> 00:49:09,046where you end up in a discussionwhere, like, you decide youdisagree with your friend...

64200:49:09,124 --> 00:49:11,149because she thinksthat human nature's evil,

64300:49:11,226 --> 00:49:13,456you think human nature's good,and you can't get any further.

64400:49:13,528 --> 00:49:17,862I mean, this is- I thinkthat kind of stupidity, I think,

64500:49:17,933 --> 00:49:21,061has affected a lot of the historyof political philosophy.

64600:49:21,136 --> 00:49:24,299And I think the relevantfact for politics-

64700:49:28,743 --> 00:49:31,940Running aground.

64800:49:34,082 --> 00:49:36,016Shipwrecked.

64900:49:41,423 --> 00:49:44,688The relevant fact for politics isreally that human nature's changeable.

65000:49:44,759 --> 00:49:49,992Human nature isn't good or evil.Human nature is, uh, constituted.

65100:49:50,065 --> 00:49:52,590It's constitutedby how we act, how we-

65200:49:52,667 --> 00:49:57,536The history- Human nature is, in fact,the histoy of habits and practices...

65300:49:57,606 --> 00:50:00,370that are the resultof- of past struggles,

65400:50:00,442 --> 00:50:03,502of past hierarchies,of past victories and defeats.

65500:50:03,578 --> 00:50:06,069And so this is, I think, actually-

65600:50:06,147 --> 00:50:09,014The key to rethinking revolutionis to recognize...

65700:50:09,084 --> 00:50:11,848that revolution...

65800:50:11,920 --> 00:50:16,653is not just about...a transformation for democracy.

65900:50:16,725 --> 00:50:19,193It's really-Revolution really requires...

66000:50:19,260 --> 00:50:23,594a transformation of human natureso that people are capable of democracy.

66100:50:27,969 --> 00:50:31,029Democracy is one of those conceptsthat seems to me has been...

66200:50:31,106 --> 00:50:33,700almost completely corrupted today.

66300:50:33,775 --> 00:50:36,005In some cases,it's used to mean...

66400:50:36,077 --> 00:50:39,604simply periodic electionswith a limited choice of rulers.

66500:50:39,681 --> 00:50:43,708In other cases, when one thinksespecially in international affairs,

66600:50:43,785 --> 00:50:47,380

it often means following the willof the United States.

66700:50:47,455 --> 00:50:50,618But really, democracy meansthe rule of all by all.

66800:50:50,692 --> 00:50:55,288It means everybody involvedin collective self-rule.

66900:50:58,500 --> 00:51:00,593You see those turtles over there?

67000:51:08,810 --> 00:51:13,042How do you transform human natureso that people will be capableof democracy?

67100:51:13,114 --> 00:51:16,447Lenin's solution to this problemis a properly dialectical one.

67200:51:16,518 --> 00:51:20,045He thinks- and this is in large partwhat the Soviets enact-

67300:51:20,121 --> 00:51:23,249that there has to bea negation of democracy.

67400:51:23,324 --> 00:51:25,519Call it "dictatorship of the proletariat,"

67500:51:25,593 --> 00:51:30,326some sort of hegemonic statethat would then operate the transition,

67600:51:30,398 --> 00:51:32,389that would transform human nature,

67700:51:32,467 --> 00:51:37,234then to eventually arrive at the timewhen people are capable of democracy,

67800:51:37,305 --> 00:51:40,274the state's no longer necessary,et cetera.

67900:51:41,276 --> 00:51:45,542It's properly the dialectical natureof this that seems to me mistaken.

68000:51:45,613 --> 00:51:50,448How do people learn democracy?How does human nature changeto become capable of democracy?

68100:51:50,518 --> 00:51:52,486Not by its opposite.

68200:51:52,554 --> 00:51:57,184It can only be done in a sortof positive development by-

68300:51:57,258 --> 00:51:59,556You can only learn democracy by doing it.

68400:51:59,627 --> 00:52:04,087And so that that seems to me-the conception-

68500:52:04,165 --> 00:52:08,397

the only way it seems to me todayto be able to rehabilitate...

68600:52:09,404 --> 00:52:11,463the conception of revolution.

68700:52:13,441 --> 00:52:17,639Revolution then todayrefuses that dialecticbetween purgatory and paradise.

68800:52:17,712 --> 00:52:22,149It's rather instigatingutopia every day.

68900:52:26,421 --> 00:52:30,187There's something quite- that feelsimmediately quite inappropriate...

69000:52:30,258 --> 00:52:34,422about talkingabout revolution on such a-

69100:52:34,496 --> 00:52:39,456what would be sort of like...aristocratic almost.

69200:52:39,534 --> 00:52:41,866I mean not even bourgeois.Aristocratic location.

69300:52:41,936 --> 00:52:46,373You know, rowingon a beautiful pond in a park...

69400:52:46,441 --> 00:52:51,469with the rich of New York all around it,

it seems like kind of an absurdity.

69500:52:51,546 --> 00:52:55,175[Astra Taylor]Well, where would we pick thatwould be the revolutionary spot?

69600:52:55,250 --> 00:52:57,878But then thatwould be cliche already.

69700:52:57,952 --> 00:53:01,251Here, the cliche would bethat you'd choose as a visual site...

69800:53:01,322 --> 00:53:05,816either- either a scene of poverty...

69900:53:05,894 --> 00:53:08,226or a scene of labor and production.

70000:53:08,296 --> 00:53:09,957Um,

70100:53:11,666 --> 00:53:14,032because then you would show the oneswho would benefit from it,

70200:53:14,102 --> 00:53:18,869and even the subjects, you know,the actors that would- that would conduct it.

70300:53:18,940 --> 00:53:23,206But it strikes me in another waythat it might be appropriate to have-

704

00:53:25,113 --> 00:53:29,413to work against sucha conception of revolution...

70500:53:29,484 --> 00:53:31,918as, um-

70600:53:33,388 --> 00:53:35,379as loss and as deprivation.

70700:53:36,257 --> 00:53:40,990It makes little sense to meto say revolution can't be madein the United States...

70800:53:41,062 --> 00:53:43,553or revolution can't be made in New Yorkbecause everyone is too comfortable,

70900:53:43,631 --> 00:53:46,259because they have too muchto lose, et cetera.

71000:53:46,334 --> 00:53:49,565They too havean enormous amount to gain.

71100:53:49,637 --> 00:53:51,798When we say a better worldis possible,

71200:53:51,873 --> 00:53:55,900we don't just mean a better worldfor those who are least off today.

71300:53:55,977 --> 00:53:58,070We mean a better world for all of us.

71400:54:23,171 --> 00:54:27,437[Man]This is where we should startfeeling at home.

71500:54:30,111 --> 00:54:33,410Part of our daily perceptionof reality...

71600:54:33,481 --> 00:54:37,042is that this disappearsfrom our world.

71700:54:37,118 --> 00:54:42,055When you go to the toilet,shit disappears. You flush it.

71800:54:42,123 --> 00:54:46,526Of course rationally you knowit's there in canalization and so on,

71900:54:46,594 --> 00:54:49,893but at a certain level ofyour most elementay experience,

72000:54:49,964 --> 00:54:53,957it disappears from your world.

72100:54:56,037 --> 00:54:59,973But the problem is that trashdoesn't disappear.

72200:55:02,043 --> 00:55:04,034I think ecology-

723

00:55:04,112 --> 00:55:06,774The way we approachecological problematic...

72400:55:06,848 --> 00:55:11,217is maybe the crucial fieldof ideology today.

72500:55:11,286 --> 00:55:16,553And I use ideology in thetraditional sense of illusory

72600:55:16,624 --> 00:55:20,993wrong way of thinkingand perceiving reality.

72700:55:21,062 --> 00:55:24,725Why? Ideology is not simply dreaming...

72800:55:24,799 --> 00:55:27,666about false ideas and so on.

72900:55:27,735 --> 00:55:33,537Ideology addresses very real problems,but it mystifies them.

73000:55:33,608 --> 00:55:37,203One of the elementayideological mechanisms, I claim,

73100:55:37,278 --> 00:55:42,079is what I callthe temptation of meaning.

73200:55:42,150 --> 00:55:44,618When something horrible happens,

73300:55:44,686 --> 00:55:48,122our spontaneous tendencyis to search for a meaning.

73400:55:48,189 --> 00:55:52,125It must mean something.You know, like AIDS.It was a trauma.

73500:55:52,193 --> 00:55:55,390Then conservatives cameand said it's punishment...

73600:55:55,463 --> 00:55:58,762for our sinful ways of life,and so on and so on.

73700:55:58,833 --> 00:56:04,669Even if we interpret a catastropheas a punishment,

73800:56:04,739 --> 00:56:06,468it makes it easier in a way...

73900:56:06,541 --> 00:56:10,033because we know it's not justsome terrifying blind force.

74000:56:10,111 --> 00:56:11,635It has a meaning.

74100:56:11,713 --> 00:56:14,307It's better when you arein the middle of a catastrophe.

74200:56:14,382 --> 00:56:20,116

It's better to feel that God punished youthan to feel that it just happened.

74300:56:20,188 --> 00:56:24,124If God punished you,it's still a universe of meaning.

74400:56:24,192 --> 00:56:30,062And I think that that's whereecology as ideology enters.

74500:56:50,585 --> 00:56:53,952It's really the implicitpremise of ecology...

74600:56:54,022 --> 00:56:56,991that the existing world...

74700:56:57,058 --> 00:57:00,152is the best possible world,

74800:57:00,228 --> 00:57:03,629in the sense ofit's a balanced world...

74900:57:03,698 --> 00:57:07,361which is disturbedthrough human hubris.

75000:57:07,435 --> 00:57:10,097So why do I find this problematic?

75100:57:10,171 --> 00:57:14,073Because I thinkthat this notion of nature-

752

00:57:14,142 --> 00:57:19,239nature as a harmonious, organic,

75300:57:19,313 --> 00:57:24,182balanced, reproducing,almost living organism,

75400:57:24,252 --> 00:57:28,780which is then disturbed, perturbed,

75500:57:28,856 --> 00:57:32,849derailed through human hubris,technological exploitation and so on,

75600:57:32,927 --> 00:57:37,364is, I think, a secular versionof the religious story of the Fall.

75700:57:37,432 --> 00:57:42,665And the answer should be-not that there is no fall-that we are part of nature,

75800:57:42,737 --> 00:57:45,797but on the contrary,that there is no nature.

75900:57:45,873 --> 00:57:50,469Nature is not a balanced totalitywhich then we humans disturb.

76000:57:50,545 --> 00:57:52,843Nature is a big series...

76100:57:52,914 --> 00:57:55,212of unimaginable catastrophes.

76200:57:55,283 --> 00:57:59,686We profit from them.What's our main sourceof energy today? Oil.

76300:57:59,754 --> 00:58:02,188What are we aware- What is oil?

76400:58:02,256 --> 00:58:07,023Oil reserves beneath the earthare material remainders...

76500:58:07,095 --> 00:58:09,620of an unimaginable catastrophe.

76600:58:09,697 --> 00:58:13,758Are we aware-Because we all knowthat oil- oil- oil is-

76700:58:13,835 --> 00:58:17,635oil is composed of theremainders of animal life,

76800:58:17,705 --> 00:58:19,798plants and so on and so on.

76900:58:19,874 --> 00:58:23,935Can you imagine what kindof unthinkable catastrophe...

77000:58:24,011 --> 00:58:25,945had to occur on Earth?

77100:58:26,013 --> 00:58:27,947So that is good to remember.

77200:58:46,167 --> 00:58:49,034No. You call this porn? My God.

77300:58:55,109 --> 00:58:59,978You can have a half of a hamburger.There is some cheese sandwich.

77400:59:00,047 --> 00:59:03,244Then you can have a muffinand some juice.

77500:59:09,757 --> 00:59:13,955Ecology will slowly turn, maybe,

77600:59:14,028 --> 00:59:17,930into a new opium of the masses...

77700:59:17,999 --> 00:59:21,059the way, as we all know,Marx defined religion.

77800:59:22,003 --> 00:59:27,669What we expect from religionis a kind of an unquestionablehighest authority.

77900:59:27,742 --> 00:59:30,734It's God's word, so it is.You don't debate it.

78000:59:30,811 --> 00:59:32,745Today, I claim,

78100:59:32,813 --> 00:59:37,773ecology is more and more

taking over this role...

78200:59:37,852 --> 00:59:41,310of a conservative ideology.

78300:59:41,389 --> 00:59:45,985Whenever there isa new scientific breakthrough-biogenetic development, whatever-

78400:59:46,060 --> 00:59:48,392it is as if the voice...

78500:59:48,462 --> 00:59:53,092which warns us not to trespass,

78600:59:53,167 --> 00:59:55,465violate a certain invisible limit...

78700:59:55,536 --> 00:59:57,834like, "Don't do that.It would be too much."

78800:59:57,905 --> 01:00:02,638That voice is today moreand more the voice of ecology.

78901:00:02,710 --> 01:00:04,940Like, "Don't mess with D.N.A.

79001:00:05,012 --> 01:00:07,139Don't mess with nature.Don't do it"-

79101:00:07,215 --> 01:00:09,911this basic conservative...

79201:00:09,984 --> 01:00:15,047partly ideological mistrust of change.

79301:00:15,122 --> 01:00:17,090This is today ecology.

79401:00:19,026 --> 01:00:21,961Another mythwhich is popular about ecology-

79501:00:22,029 --> 01:00:25,760namely a spontaneous ideological myth-

79601:00:25,833 --> 01:00:30,031is the idea that we Western people...

79701:00:30,104 --> 01:00:33,267in our artificialtechnological environment...

79801:00:33,341 --> 01:00:38,904are alienated from immediatenatural environments-

79901:00:38,980 --> 01:00:40,914that we should not forget...

80001:00:40,982 --> 01:00:45,510that we humansare part of the living Earth.

80101:00:45,586 --> 01:00:50,353We should not forgetthat we are not abstract engineers,

80201:00:50,424 --> 01:00:53,018theorists who just exploit nature-

80301:00:53,094 --> 01:00:58,999that we are part of nature,that nature is our unfathomable,impenetrable background.

80401:00:59,066 --> 01:01:04,333I think that that preciselyis the greatest danger.

80501:01:04,405 --> 01:01:08,808Why? Think abouta certain obvious paradox.

80601:01:08,876 --> 01:01:13,040We all know in whatdanger we all are-

80701:01:13,114 --> 01:01:17,744global warming,possibility of other ecologicalcatastrophes and so on and so on.

80801:01:17,818 --> 01:01:21,276But why don't we do anything about it?

80901:01:21,355 --> 01:01:24,324It is, I think, a nice example...

81001:01:24,392 --> 01:01:29,261of what in psychoanalysiswe call disavowal.

81101:01:29,330 --> 01:01:32,299

The logic is that of,"I know very well,

81201:01:32,366 --> 01:01:36,234but I act as if I don't know."

81301:01:36,304 --> 01:01:38,602For example, precisely,

81401:01:38,673 --> 01:01:43,133in the case of ecology, I know verywell there may be global warming,

81501:01:43,210 --> 01:01:46,304everything will explode,be destroyed.

81601:01:46,380 --> 01:01:50,749But after reading a treatise on it,what do I do?

81701:01:50,818 --> 01:01:55,619I step out. I see- not thingsthat I see now behind me-

81801:01:55,690 --> 01:01:57,715that's a nice sight for me-

81901:01:57,792 --> 01:02:01,523I see nice trees, birds singing and so on.

82001:02:01,595 --> 01:02:05,656And even if I know rationallythis is all in danger,

82101:02:05,733 --> 01:02:10,670

I simply do not believethat this can be destroyed.

82201:02:10,738 --> 01:02:16,142That's the horror of visiting sitesof a catastrophe like Chernobyl.

82301:02:16,210 --> 01:02:19,441You- In a way,we are not evolutionarily-

82401:02:19,513 --> 01:02:22,778We are not wired to even imaginesomething like that.

82501:02:22,850 --> 01:02:24,841It's in a way unimaginable.

82601:02:24,919 --> 01:02:27,911So I thinkthat what we should do...

82701:02:27,988 --> 01:02:32,652to confront properly the threatof ecological catastrophe...

82801:02:32,727 --> 01:02:35,457is not all this New Age stuff...

82901:02:35,529 --> 01:02:39,363to break out of thistechnological manipulative mold...

83001:02:39,433 --> 01:02:42,266and to found our roots in nature,

831

01:02:42,336 --> 01:02:46,534but, on the contrary, to cut offeven more these roots in nature.

83201:02:56,150 --> 01:03:00,143We need more alienationfrom our life-world,

83301:03:00,221 --> 01:03:03,486from our, as it were,spontaneous nature.

83401:03:03,557 --> 01:03:06,549We should become more artificial.

83501:03:15,736 --> 01:03:20,366We should develop, I think,a much more terrifyingnew abstract materialism,

83601:03:20,441 --> 01:03:24,343a kind of a mathematical universewhere there is nothing.

83701:03:24,412 --> 01:03:28,041There are just formulas,technical forms and so on.

83801:03:28,115 --> 01:03:32,950And the difficult thingis to find poetry,

83901:03:33,020 --> 01:03:35,250spirituality,in this dimension...

84001:03:36,991 --> 01:03:40,586

to recreate-if not beauty-then aesthetic dimension...

84101:03:40,661 --> 01:03:43,892in things like this, in trash itself.

84201:03:43,964 --> 01:03:46,057That's the true love of the world.

84301:03:46,133 --> 01:03:49,500Because what is love?Love is not idealization.

84401:03:50,771 --> 01:03:55,970Every true lover knowsthat if you really love a woman or a man,

84501:03:57,478 --> 01:04:01,346that you don't idealize him or her.

84601:04:01,415 --> 01:04:04,646Love means that you accept a person...

84701:04:04,718 --> 01:04:08,654with all its failures,stupidities, ugly points.

84801:04:08,722 --> 01:04:13,216And nonetheless,the person's absolute for you.

84901:04:13,294 --> 01:04:16,752Everything life-that makes life worth living.

85001:04:16,831 --> 01:04:21,325

But you see perfectionin imperfection itself.

85101:04:21,402 --> 01:04:27,170And that's how we should learnto love the world.

85201:04:27,241 --> 01:04:30,472True ecologist loves all this.

85301:05:11,151 --> 01:05:14,052I thought we should takethis walk together.

85401:05:14,121 --> 01:05:16,180And, um-

85501:05:17,892 --> 01:05:22,454One of the things I wantedto talk about was what it meansfor us to take a walk together.

85601:05:30,538 --> 01:05:35,669When I first asked youabout this, um, you told meyou take walks, you take strolls.

85701:05:35,743 --> 01:05:38,837I do.And...

85801:05:38,913 --> 01:05:44,351can you say something about,um, what that is for you?

85901:05:44,418 --> 01:05:48,821When do you do it

and how do you do itand what words do you have for it?

86001:05:48,889 --> 01:05:52,848Well I think that I-I always go for a walk-Mm-hmm.

86101:05:52,927 --> 01:05:54,918Probably every day I go for a walk.Every day.

86201:05:54,995 --> 01:05:59,398Um, and I always tell peoplethat I'm going for walks.

86301:05:59,466 --> 01:06:01,400I use that word.

86401:06:01,468 --> 01:06:04,835And most of the disabled peoplewho I know use that term also.

86501:06:04,905 --> 01:06:09,137And which environments make itpossible for you to take a walk?

86601:06:09,209 --> 01:06:13,976I moved to San Franciscolargely because it's the mostaccessible place in the world.

86701:06:14,048 --> 01:06:16,039Yes.And part of what's so amazingto me about it...

868

01:06:16,116 --> 01:06:20,212is that the- the physical access-

86901:06:20,287 --> 01:06:22,414the fact that the public transportationis accessible,

87001:06:22,489 --> 01:06:24,923there's curb cuts most places.

87101:06:24,992 --> 01:06:29,292Almost most places I'll go,there's curb cuts.Buildings are accessible.

87201:06:29,363 --> 01:06:33,823And what this does isthat it also leadsto a social acceptability,

87301:06:33,901 --> 01:06:37,393that somehow because-because there's physical access,

87401:06:37,471 --> 01:06:40,372there're simply more disabled peopleout and about in the world.

87501:06:40,441 --> 01:06:44,434And so people have learnedhow to interact with them...

87601:06:44,511 --> 01:06:47,036and are used to themin this certain way.Yes.

877

01:06:47,114 --> 01:06:51,983And so the physical accessactually leads to, um,

87801:06:53,187 --> 01:06:55,553a social access, an acceptance.Yeah.

87901:06:55,623 --> 01:06:58,057It must be nice not to alwayshave to be the pioneer.

88001:06:58,125 --> 01:07:00,992Yes, definitely. Definitely.The very first one they meet...

88101:07:01,061 --> 01:07:03,825The first disabled personthey've ever seen.and having to explain.

88201:07:03,897 --> 01:07:06,127Yeah.And yes I do, you know, speak...

88301:07:06,200 --> 01:07:08,725and think and talkand move and enjoy life...Yes.

88401:07:08,802 --> 01:07:11,703and suffer many of the sameheartaches that you do.

88501:07:11,772 --> 01:07:13,706Anyway, um,

886

01:07:13,774 --> 01:07:18,643but what I'm wondering aboutis, um, moving in social space, right?

88701:07:18,712 --> 01:07:21,203Moving- all the movementsyou can do...

88801:07:21,281 --> 01:07:25,217and which help you liveand which express youin various ways.

88901:07:25,285 --> 01:07:31,053Um, do you feel free to movein all the ways you want to move?

89001:07:31,125 --> 01:07:36,392I can go into a coffee shopand actually pick up the cupwith my mouth...

89101:07:36,463 --> 01:07:38,397and carry it to my table.

89201:07:38,465 --> 01:07:42,629But then that-that becomes almost more difficult...

89301:07:42,703 --> 01:07:46,036because of the-

89401:07:46,106 --> 01:07:48,540just the normalizing standardsof our movements...Yes.

895

01:07:48,609 --> 01:07:52,010and the discomfortthat that causes...

89601:07:52,079 --> 01:07:55,310when I do things with body parts...

89701:07:55,382 --> 01:07:59,751that aren't necessarilywhat we assume that they're for.

89801:07:59,820 --> 01:08:04,280That seems to be even more, um,

89901:08:06,160 --> 01:08:08,355hard for people to deal with.

90001:08:09,963 --> 01:08:11,988Is that somebody's shoe?Someone's shoe.

90101:08:12,066 --> 01:08:15,900I wonderif they can walk without it.Yeah.

90201:08:15,969 --> 01:08:20,565I'm just thinking that nobodytakes a walk without there beinga technique of walking.

90301:08:20,641 --> 01:08:22,575Yeah.Nobody goes for a walk...

90401:08:22,643 --> 01:08:27,342without there being something

that supports that walk,uh, outside of ourselves.

90501:08:27,414 --> 01:08:33,114Mm-hmm.Um, and that maybewe have a false idea,

90601:08:33,187 --> 01:08:38,215um, that the able-bodied personis somehow radicallyself-sufficient.

90701:08:38,292 --> 01:08:40,283[Sunaura Taylor]Yeah.

90801:08:43,197 --> 01:08:48,533It wasn't until I wasin my early 20s, about 20 or 21,

90901:08:48,602 --> 01:08:53,335that I became awareof disability...

91001:08:53,407 --> 01:08:55,341as a political issue.

91101:08:55,409 --> 01:08:59,743Um, and that happenedlargely through discoveringthe social model of disability...

91201:08:59,813 --> 01:09:01,906which is basically-

91301:09:01,982 --> 01:09:04,143

In disability studies,they have a distinction...

91401:09:04,218 --> 01:09:06,277between disabilityand impairment.Yeah.

91501:09:06,353 --> 01:09:11,222So impairment would bemy- my body, my embodimentright now.

91601:09:11,291 --> 01:09:14,488The fact that I was bornwith arthrogyposis,

91701:09:14,561 --> 01:09:20,022which affects- whatthe medical world has labeledas arthrogyposis-

91801:09:20,100 --> 01:09:25,333Um, but basically that my jointsare-are-are-are fused.

91901:09:25,405 --> 01:09:29,535My muscles are weaker.I can't move in certain ways.

92001:09:29,610 --> 01:09:35,207And this does affect my lifein all sorts of situations.Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

92101:09:35,282 --> 01:09:38,547For instance, you know,there's a plum tree in my backyard.

92201:09:38,619 --> 01:09:40,883I can't pick the plumsoff the plum tree.

92301:09:40,954 --> 01:09:42,945I have to wait for themto drop or whatever.

92401:09:43,023 --> 01:09:47,426Um, but then-And so there's that-there's that embodiment,

92501:09:47,494 --> 01:09:50,327um, our own unique embodiments.

92601:09:50,397 --> 01:09:55,266And then there's disabilitywhich is basically the-

92701:09:55,335 --> 01:10:00,967the... social repressionof disabled people.

92801:10:01,041 --> 01:10:04,875The fact that disabled peoplehave limited housing options.

92901:10:04,945 --> 01:10:07,038We don't have career opportunities.

93001:10:07,114 --> 01:10:10,345Um, we're socially isolated.

93101:10:10,417 --> 01:10:12,351

We're, um-

93201:10:12,419 --> 01:10:15,616You know, in many ways,there's a cultural aversionto disabled people.

93301:10:15,689 --> 01:10:19,887So would disabilitybe the social organizationof impairment?

93401:10:19,960 --> 01:10:22,485The disabling effects,basically, of society.

93501:10:27,334 --> 01:10:30,667What happened?Did you come in contactwith disability activists?

93601:10:30,737 --> 01:10:34,696Or did you read certain things?I read a book review actually.

93701:10:34,775 --> 01:10:37,505Oh, really?Yeah, I just read a book review.

93801:10:37,578 --> 01:10:39,569And when that happened,I lived in Brooklyn.

93901:10:39,646 --> 01:10:44,583And I would- I would really tryto make myself go out...

940

01:10:44,651 --> 01:10:46,949and just order a coffeeby myself.Yes.

94101:10:47,020 --> 01:10:50,183And I would sit for hoursbeforehand in the park...

94201:10:50,257 --> 01:10:52,691just trying to get up the nerveto do that.Oh.

94301:10:52,759 --> 01:10:56,251In a way, it's a political protestfor me to go in...

94401:10:56,330 --> 01:10:58,798and order a coffeeand demand help...

94501:10:58,866 --> 01:11:02,597simply because in my opinion,help is something that we all need.

94601:11:02,669 --> 01:11:06,901Yes.And it's something that is-is, you know, looked down upon...

94701:11:06,974 --> 01:11:11,434and... not really taken care ofin this society...

94801:11:11,511 --> 01:11:13,479when we all-when we all need help...

Yes.

94901:11:13,547 --> 01:11:16,948and we're all interdependentin all sorts of ways.Yes.

95001:11:19,419 --> 01:11:22,286Should we stopand get me something warm?

95101:11:24,658 --> 01:11:26,125I don't know, honey.That's pretty fancy.

95201:11:26,193 --> 01:11:29,060Let's go find something good.

95301:11:30,297 --> 01:11:33,027Yeah, I think that wouldprobably fall off my shoulders.

95401:11:34,968 --> 01:11:37,960Although I guess we can try it on.

95501:11:38,038 --> 01:11:41,303Basically, that's the back, yeah.That would be-

95601:11:42,476 --> 01:11:44,467Yeah.

95701:11:45,779 --> 01:11:47,770Okay.

95801:11:49,716 --> 01:11:51,741

Other arm.Other arm?

95901:11:57,991 --> 01:12:00,926And I like it.It's stylish.It's very stylish.

96001:12:00,994 --> 01:12:04,020Okay.It's kind of, you know,

96101:12:04,097 --> 01:12:06,031sporty and fancy.

96201:12:06,099 --> 01:12:09,830It's gonna be a new show,Shopping With Judith Butler.

96301:12:09,903 --> 01:12:11,837For the Queer Eye.

96401:12:13,640 --> 01:12:16,108Maybe I can just get itwhile wearing it.

96501:12:17,244 --> 01:12:19,872[Clerk]Hey.Hi. We put the sweater on.

96601:12:19,947 --> 01:12:21,881Yeah, so I'm actually buyingthe one that I'm wearing.We just wanna buy it.

96701:12:21,949 --> 01:12:24,509

Okay. Um, so it's by weight.

96801:12:24,584 --> 01:12:26,518Oh, it's by weight?Can we guess?

96901:12:26,586 --> 01:12:29,282I can probably just do itfor four bucks plus tax.That sounds good.

97001:12:29,356 --> 01:12:31,790Here you go.

97101:12:34,161 --> 01:12:38,291Can you give me the- the bills firstand then give me the change?Sure.

97201:12:39,366 --> 01:12:41,834Oh. Oh, I just meant the-Oh, you just want-

97301:12:41,902 --> 01:12:44,530Yeah, I just can't hold bothat the same time.There you go.

97401:12:46,373 --> 01:12:50,241- There you go.- Thanks. Thanks so much.

97501:12:55,515 --> 01:13:00,043I think gender and disabilityconverge in a whole lotof different ways.

976

01:13:00,120 --> 01:13:03,851Yeah.But one thing I thinkboth movements do...

97701:13:03,924 --> 01:13:08,827is get us to rethink, um,what the body can do.

97801:13:09,563 --> 01:13:14,262There's an essay by the philosopherGilles Deleuze called"What Can a Body Do?"

97901:13:15,569 --> 01:13:20,097Uh, and the questionis supposed to challenge,um, the traditional ways...

98001:13:20,173 --> 01:13:22,164in which we thinkabout bodies.Mm-hmm.

98101:13:22,242 --> 01:13:25,040We usually ask, you know,what is a body...

98201:13:25,112 --> 01:13:27,580or what is the ideal formof a body...

98301:13:27,647 --> 01:13:30,548or, you know,what's the differencebetween the body and the soul...

98401:13:30,617 --> 01:13:32,551

and that kind of thing.Yeah.

98501:13:32,619 --> 01:13:38,251Uh, but "what can a body do?"is, um- is a different question.

98601:13:38,325 --> 01:13:41,317It's- It- It isolatesa set of capacities...

98701:13:41,395 --> 01:13:45,661and a set of instrumentalitiesor actions,

98801:13:45,732 --> 01:13:49,099and we are kindof assemblages of those things.Mm-hmm.

98901:13:49,169 --> 01:13:51,103Um, and I like this idea.

99001:13:51,171 --> 01:13:53,071It's- It's not likethere's an essence,

99101:13:53,140 --> 01:13:56,769and it's not likethere's an ideal morphology-

99201:13:56,843 --> 01:13:58,777you know, what a bodyshould look like.

99301:13:58,845 --> 01:14:00,745It's exactly not that question.

Yeah. Yeah.

99401:14:00,814 --> 01:14:04,011[Laughs] Or what a bodyshould move like.Mm-hmm.

99501:14:04,084 --> 01:14:07,383Um, and one of the thingsthat I found...

99601:14:07,454 --> 01:14:10,184in thinking about genderand even violence...

99701:14:10,257 --> 01:14:14,091against, uh, sexual minoritiesor gender minorities-

99801:14:14,161 --> 01:14:19,360people whose gender presentationdoesn't conform with standard ideals...

99901:14:19,433 --> 01:14:22,960of femininity or masculinity-

100001:14:23,036 --> 01:14:26,335is that very often, um,

100101:14:26,406 --> 01:14:29,466it comes down to, uh,

100201:14:29,543 --> 01:14:33,843you know, how people walk,how they use their hips,what they do with their body parts,

100301:14:33,914 --> 01:14:36,246uh, what they usetheir mouth for,[Laughs]

100401:14:36,316 --> 01:14:40,082what they use their anus foror what they allowtheir anus to be used for.

100501:14:44,658 --> 01:14:50,062There's a guy in Maine who-I guess he was around 18 years old.

100601:14:50,130 --> 01:14:54,157And, uh, he walkedwith a very, um,

100701:14:54,234 --> 01:14:56,168distinct swish.

100801:14:56,236 --> 01:15:00,366You know, the hips going one wayor another- and very feminine walk.

100901:15:01,108 --> 01:15:03,702But one dayhe was walking to school,

101001:15:03,777 --> 01:15:06,541and he was attackedby three of his classmates,

101101:15:06,613 --> 01:15:10,777and he was thrown over a bridgeand he was killed.

101201:15:10,851 --> 01:15:14,446And, um, the question that communityhad to deal with-

101301:15:14,521 --> 01:15:18,184and, indeed, the entire mediathat covered this event-

101401:15:18,258 --> 01:15:21,591was, you know, how could it bethat somebody's gait,

101501:15:21,661 --> 01:15:23,822that somebody's style of walking...

101601:15:23,897 --> 01:15:27,697could engender the desireto kill that person?

101701:15:30,737 --> 01:15:34,195And that, you know-that makes me thinkabout the walk in a different way.

101801:15:34,274 --> 01:15:37,038I mean, a walkcan be a dangerous thing.

101901:15:40,814 --> 01:15:43,078I'm just rememberingwhen I was little- when I did walk-

102001:15:43,150 --> 01:15:46,278I would be toldthat I walked Iike a monkey.Ah.

102101:15:46,353 --> 01:15:50,414And I think that for a lot of,you know, disabled people,

102201:15:50,490 --> 01:15:53,220the violence and the-

102301:15:53,293 --> 01:15:58,128the- the sort of-the hatred exists a lot...

102401:15:58,198 --> 01:16:04,137in- in- in this, um,

102501:16:04,204 --> 01:16:06,195reminding of people...

102601:16:06,273 --> 01:16:10,642that our bodies are... going to age...

102701:16:10,710 --> 01:16:15,010and are, um, going to die.

102801:16:15,081 --> 01:16:16,742And-

102901:16:18,084 --> 01:16:22,487You know, in some ways,I wonder also just, you know-just thinking about the monkey comment...

103001:16:22,556 --> 01:16:26,925if it is also a level of, um-

103101:16:26,993 --> 01:16:29,120

and this is just a thoughtoff the top of my head right now-

103201:16:29,196 --> 01:16:31,187but just, um,

103301:16:32,799 --> 01:16:36,200the- the sort of...

103401:16:39,573 --> 01:16:43,373where- where our boundaries lieas a human...

103501:16:43,443 --> 01:16:46,276and what becomes non-human, you know.

103601:16:46,346 --> 01:16:49,838It makes me wonderwhether the personwas anti-evolutionary.

103701:16:49,916 --> 01:16:51,884Yeah.Maybe they were a creationist.

103801:16:51,952 --> 01:16:55,513It's like, "Well, why shouldn'twe have some resemblanceto the monkey?" I mean-

103901:16:55,589 --> 01:16:57,614Well, the monkey's actuallyalways been my favorite animal too.

104001:16:57,691 --> 01:16:59,625So actually quite a lotof the time I was flattered.

104101:16:59,693 --> 01:17:01,627Exactly.Yeah.

104201:17:01,695 --> 01:17:03,629But that- that-

104301:17:03,697 --> 01:17:07,064When- When- Whenin those in-between moments...

104401:17:07,133 --> 01:17:10,330of, you know- in between maleand-and female...

104501:17:10,403 --> 01:17:16,308or in between, um- uh,death and-and health-

104601:17:16,376 --> 01:17:20,073when- when do you stillcount as a human?

104701:17:21,881 --> 01:17:23,872My sense is thatwhat's at stake here...

104801:17:23,950 --> 01:17:29,411is really rethinking the humanas a site of interdependency.Mm-hmm.

104901:17:29,489 --> 01:17:33,186And I think, you know,when you walkinto the coffee shop. Right?

105001:17:33,260 --> 01:17:35,524If I can go backto that moment for a moment.

105101:17:35,595 --> 01:17:37,790And you- you ask for the coffee,

105201:17:37,864 --> 01:17:41,857or you, indeed,even ask for some assistancewith the coffee,

105301:17:41,935 --> 01:17:45,701um, you're basicallyposing the question-

105401:17:45,772 --> 01:17:50,709Do we or do we not live in a worldin which we assist each other?[Laughs] Yeah.

105501:17:50,777 --> 01:17:56,716Do we or do we not helpeach other with- with basic needs?

105601:17:56,783 --> 01:18:01,618And are basic needs thereto be decided onas a social issue...

105701:18:01,688 --> 01:18:06,284and not just my personal,individual issue...

105801:18:06,359 --> 01:18:08,657or your personal, individual issue?

105901:18:08,728 --> 01:18:10,787So, I mean, there's a challengeto individualism...

106001:18:10,864 --> 01:18:15,392that happens at the momentin which you ask for some assistancewith the coffee cup.

106101:18:15,468 --> 01:18:17,959Yeah. Yeah.And hopefully,people will take it up...

106201:18:18,038 --> 01:18:20,404and say, "Yes, I toolive in that world...Yeah.

106301:18:20,473 --> 01:18:23,806in which I understandthat we need each otherin order to address our basic needs."

106401:18:23,877 --> 01:18:25,811Mm-hmm.You know.

106501:18:25,879 --> 01:18:29,872And- And I wanna organizea social, political worldon the basis of that recognition.

106601:19:12,826 --> 01:19:17,160[West]Romanticism thoroughly saturatedthe discourse of modern thinkers.

106701:19:17,230 --> 01:19:20,063Can you totalize?Can you make things whole?[Astra Taylor] Right.

106801:19:20,133 --> 01:19:23,125Can you create harmony?And if you can't, disappointment.

106901:19:25,271 --> 01:19:28,365Disappointment'salways at the center.Failure's always at the center.

107001:19:28,441 --> 01:19:33,435But where'd the Romanticism come from?Why begin with Romanticism?See, I don't begin with Romanticism.

107101:19:36,282 --> 01:19:39,718You remember what Beethovensaid on his deathbed, you know.

107201:19:39,786 --> 01:19:41,720He said,"I've learned to look at the world...

107301:19:41,788 --> 01:19:45,554in all of its darkness and eviland still love it."

107401:19:45,625 --> 01:19:50,426And that's not Romantic Beethoven.This is the Beethoven of the StringQuartet 131,"

1075

01:19:50,497 --> 01:19:54,866the greatest string quartet ever written-not just in classical music.

107601:19:54,934 --> 01:19:59,166But of course it's a European form,so Beethoven is the grand master.

107701:19:59,239 --> 01:20:01,639But the string quartet-you go back to those movements,

107801:20:01,708 --> 01:20:05,906it's no Romantic wholenessto be shattered,as in the early Beethoven.

107901:20:05,979 --> 01:20:08,504He's given up on that, you see.

108001:20:08,581 --> 01:20:13,041This is where Chekhov begins.This is where the blues starts.This is where jazz starts.

108101:20:13,119 --> 01:20:16,054You think Charlie Parker's upset'cause he can't sustain a harmony?

108201:20:16,122 --> 01:20:21,082He didn't care about the harmony.He was trying to completely rideon the dissonance, ride on the blue notes.

108301:20:21,161 --> 01:20:24,688Of course he's got harmonyin terms of its interventionshere and there.

108401:20:24,764 --> 01:20:27,289But why start with thisobsession with wholeness?

108501:20:27,367 --> 01:20:31,326And if you can't have it,then you're disappointedand wanna have a drink...

108601:20:31,404 --> 01:20:35,431and melancholiaand blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

108701:20:35,508 --> 01:20:39,239No. You see, the blues-my kind of blues-

108801:20:39,312 --> 01:20:44,648begins with catastrophe,begins with the Angel of Historyin Benjamin's Theses.

108901:20:44,717 --> 01:20:48,710You see. It begins with the pillage,the wreckage-

109001:20:48,788 --> 01:20:50,949one pile on another.

109101:20:51,024 --> 01:20:56,758That's the starting point.The blues is personal catastrophelyrically expressed.

109201:20:57,797 --> 01:20:59,924And black people in America

and in the modern world-

109301:20:59,999 --> 01:21:02,160given these vicious legaciesof white supremacy-

109401:21:02,235 --> 01:21:06,365it is how do you generate...

109501:21:06,439 --> 01:21:09,966an eleganceof earned self-togetherness...

109601:21:10,043 --> 01:21:12,170so that you havea stick-to-it-ness...

109701:21:12,245 --> 01:21:14,736in the face of the catastrophicand the calamitous...

109801:21:14,814 --> 01:21:17,305and the horrendousand the scandalous and the monstrous.

109901:21:22,956 --> 01:21:26,585See, part of the problem, though,is that, see, when you havea Romantic project,

110001:21:26,659 --> 01:21:32,325you're so obsessed with time as lossand time as a taker.

110101:21:32,398 --> 01:21:36,334Whereas, as a Chekhovian Christian,I wanna stress, as well,

110201:21:36,402 --> 01:21:39,997time as a gift and time as a giver.

110301:21:40,073 --> 01:21:44,601So that, yes, it's failure,but how good is a failure?You done some wonderful things.

110401:21:44,677 --> 01:21:49,114Now, Beckett could say, you know,"Try again, fail again, fail better."

110501:21:49,182 --> 01:21:53,812But why call it failure?I mean, why not sayyou have a sense of gratitude...

110601:21:53,887 --> 01:21:57,084that you're able to doas much as you did?

110701:21:57,156 --> 01:21:59,624You're able to love as muchand think as much...

110801:21:59,692 --> 01:22:02,024and play as much.

110901:22:02,095 --> 01:22:04,529Why think you neededthe whole thing?

111001:22:04,597 --> 01:22:07,691You see what I mean?This is even disturbing about America.

111101:22:07,767 --> 01:22:10,292And, of course, Americais a Romantic project.

111201:22:10,370 --> 01:22:15,398It's paradisal, "City on a Hill"and all this other messand lies and so on.

111301:22:15,475 --> 01:22:18,967I say no, no. America isa very fragile democratic experiment,

111401:22:19,045 --> 01:22:21,639predicated on the dispossessionof the lands of indigenous peoples...

111501:22:21,714 --> 01:22:24,945and the enslavement of African peoplesand the subjugation of women...

111601:22:25,018 --> 01:22:27,179and the marginalizationof gays and lesbians.

111701:22:27,253 --> 01:22:29,813And it has great potential.

111801:22:29,889 --> 01:22:33,416But this notion that somehow,you know, we had it all...

111901:22:33,493 --> 01:22:35,518or ever will have it all,it's got to go.

1120

01:22:35,595 --> 01:22:37,529You got to push it to the side.

112101:22:37,597 --> 01:22:41,658And once you pushall that to the side, then it tendsto evacuate the language of disappointment...

112201:22:41,734 --> 01:22:43,725and the language of failure.

112301:22:43,803 --> 01:22:46,328And you say-Okay, well, how much have we done?

112401:22:46,406 --> 01:22:48,340How have we been able to do it?

112501:22:48,408 --> 01:22:50,706Can we do more?Well, in certain situations,you can't do more.

112601:22:50,777 --> 01:22:54,372It's like trying to break-dance at 75.You can't do it anymore.

112701:22:54,447 --> 01:22:57,507You were a master at 16. It's over.

112801:22:57,584 --> 01:23:01,350You can't make love at 80the way you did at 20.So what?

112901:23:01,421 --> 01:23:03,753Time is real.

113001:23:08,728 --> 01:23:12,824So the one question that keepscoming up- or a phrase-

113101:23:12,899 --> 01:23:14,833is this ideaof the meaningful life.

113201:23:14,901 --> 01:23:17,597Do you think it isphilosophy's dutyto speak on this?

113301:23:17,670 --> 01:23:20,264A meaningful life?How to livea meaningful life.

113401:23:21,874 --> 01:23:25,435Is that even a relevant-Is that even an appropriate questionfor a philosopher?

113501:23:25,511 --> 01:23:28,776No, I think it is.No, I think the problem with meaningis vey important.

113601:23:28,848 --> 01:23:31,180Nihilism is a serious challenge.

113701:23:31,250 --> 01:23:33,810Meaninglessnessis a serious challenge.

113801:23:33,886 --> 01:23:38,619

Even making sense of meaninglessnessis itself a kind of disciplineand achievement.

113901:23:41,728 --> 01:23:43,958The problem is, of course,you never reach it, you know.

114001:23:44,030 --> 01:23:47,796It's not a static,stationary telos or end or aim.

114101:23:47,867 --> 01:23:51,530It's a process that one never reaches.It's Sisyphean.

114201:23:51,604 --> 01:23:56,337You're going up the hilllooking for better meanings...

114301:23:56,409 --> 01:24:00,072or grander, more enabling meanings.

114401:24:00,146 --> 01:24:02,239But you never reach it.

114501:24:02,315 --> 01:24:04,545Uh, you know, in that sense,

114601:24:04,617 --> 01:24:07,609you die without being ableto "have" the whole,

114701:24:07,687 --> 01:24:10,053in the languageof the Romantic discourse.

114801:24:14,727 --> 01:24:17,457Let me just jump out hereon the corner.

114901:24:17,530 --> 01:24:19,828Okay, you'll. Thank you so much.[Man] Thank you very much.

115001:24:19,899 --> 01:24:21,924Take good care now.You too.