episode 224: how to use sound and music to optimize focus ...the worst thing that happens is we get...

Copyright © 2019 Wellness Mama · All Rights Reserved

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Episode224:HowtoUseSoundandMusicto

OptimizeFocusandSleepWithBrain.fm


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Child:WelcometomyMommy’spodcast.

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Katie:Hello,andwelcometo,"TheWellnessMamaPodcast."I'mKatiefromwellnessmama.com.Andtoday'sepisodeisgoingtobeallaboutthebrain,andmusic,andhowwecanimproveourbrainusingmusic.IamherewithDanielClark,whowasoneofBrain.fm'sfirstusers,andnowservesasCEO.We'regonnahearalittleabouthisstorytoday.Buthe'sconstantlystrivingtobuildacompanythatcanchangetheworldthroughmusic.Andinthisepisode,wedelveintothescienceofthebrain,andhowtousemusicandsoundtoimproveit.SoDaniel,welcomeandthanksforbeinghere.

Dan:Thankyouforhavingme.

Katie:I'msuperexcited.Ithinkthisisasuperfascinatingcutting-edgetopic,andI'mguessingalotofpeoplearealreadyfamiliar.Butforanyonewhoisn't,canyouexplainwhatBrain.fmis?

Dan:Sure,soatBrain.fmwemakefunctionalmusictohelppeoplefocus,relax,andsleepbetter.Andit'sallbackedbyscienceandresearch.


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Katie:Awesome.Socanwegoalittledeeperonlikehowthatworksandwhatreallyseparatesitfromothertypesofmusic?

Dan:Yeah,ofcourse.SobasicallywhatwedoiswehaveapatentedAIsystemthatcreatesmusicthatiscreatedforafunctionalpurposefirst,andthenthemusicqualitiesarounditarecreatedsecond,right.Sowhathappensis,wehaveallthisresearchonfMRIdata,EEGdata,andlargescaletestingwithpeople,andwe'retryingtoenableindividualstohavementalstateson-demand.

Sowedofocus,relax,andsleepasmentionedearlier,ourfocusproducttohelppeople,foradultsanyway,isthatwhenyouhaveaprojectduetomorrow,you'vehadtwocupsofcoffee,andit's2:00inthemorningandyoufeellikeyou'reinthatzoneandyoucanfly.That'sexactlywhatwe'retryingtoreplicateon-demandinindividuals,inthesameexactwayforsleepandforrelaxtoo.

Soifsomeonehasanxietyorjustneedstode-stressandtakeabreak,theycanthrowinourrelaxmusicorourasleepmusicwhichcanhelppeoplefallasleepin15minutes.Butalsostayasleepandhaveabetternight'ssleepatthesametime.

Katie:Interesting.Sopeopleareusingthiswhiletypicallydoingotherthings.Thiscanbeusedwhileworkingorsleepingoranytimeofdayprettymuch?

Dan:Yeah,exactly.Soit'smeanttobemoreonthebackgroundnoise.Sowhenyouputiton,it'snotsomethingwhereit's...we'renottryingtocompetewithyourfavoriteRollingStonesmixlet'ssay.It'smoreabouttobeusedtoblockoutdistractionswhilefocusingorsleepingeven.Likeforexample,IliveinNewYorkandit'snoisyoutside,andwherewecan'tnecessarilycontroltheenvironment,wecancontrolthesoundsthatareinourhouse,and,youknow,wecanhelpidentify,andhelppeoplefallasleepfasterandstayasleeplonger.

Katie:Interesting.Sothemomslisteningmaybe...Imean,Ithinkweallhaveanunderstandinginsomewaysofhowmusicaffectsus,whetheritbeexperienceswithmusicthatjusttouchesyouonasuperdeeplevelthatgivesyougoosebumps.OrIknowtomoms,there'salotofmarketingaboutcertaintypesofclassicalmusicbeinggoodforthebrainindifferentways,orgoodforbabies'IQ.Although,obviouslythosearecontroversial,andsomeofthemhavebeendisproven.ButIthinkjustintuitively,ashumans,weunderstandthatmusiccanhaveareallydeepimpactonus.ButIfeellikeyou'retalkingaboutsomethingevenaboveandbeyondthat.Isthereactuallylikeaphysiologicalmeasurablethingthat'shappeninginthebrainwiththistypeofmusic?

Dan:Yeah,thereis.Sowehave...WhatItellpeopleisit'skindoflikewehaveninesecretspices,andthroughdifferentkindsofeventsandthemusicthatwedesign,wecraftmusictohaveacertainkindofresponseinyourbody.SotheprocessthatweusethroughourAIissomethingwehavedeemedneuralphase-locking.And


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basicallywhatthatdoesisitencouragesyourbraintoarriveatacertainmentalstate,andthenphaselockorstaythereforaslongasyou'relisteningtoourmusic.

Itdoeshaveaphysiologicaleffectonyourbody,andactually,we'recurrentlyinagrantrightnowfromthegovernment,tohelpusvalidateifwecancompetewithdifferentkindsofADHDmedicationsandbeeitherareplacement,apreliminarystep,orinaddition,sosomeonecantakelessofthosemedicationstobemoreeffective.Soit'sreallyinteresting.Mostofthisstuffcomesfromanevolutionarylevel.Sowefindinourtestingthatthisworksonaverylargevarietyofsubjects,somewithADHD,andsomeactuallyjustnotdiagnosedwiththat.

Becausewhathappensisonafundamentallevel,we'reallhuman,andwehavethesethingsthatarebuiltintous.OneoftheexamplesthatIsayismostpeople,whenthey'resleeping,ifIsayyournameKatie,you'regonnawakeup.Why?Becauseyourearsandyourlisteningoryourhearing,issoingrainedwithouralertsystem.Ten,20,000yearsago,thosealertsbeingdistractedactuallysavedourlives.Becausewhenyou'resleeping,it'sabearcomingtoeatyou,oravillager,likefromanothertowntryingtohurtyou,perhaps,oryouknow,amyriadofdifferentkindsofthingsthataretryingtohurtus,right.

Andintheplacethatwelivetoday,insociety,wedon'thavethosethingstryingtohurtus.Whereyouknow,theworstthingthathappensiswegetaFacebooknotificationalertingofthis,andwhathappensisourbrainisinoverdriveallthetime.Whatourmusicisdesignedtodoistoreallystopthatandreallyblockitout,andfocusyourattentionononearea.SowhatIliketotellpeople,agoodrepresentationofthisonanonscientificlevel,ismostpeoplesleepbetterinthunderstormsandwhenit'sraining.

Andit'sbecausemostpredatorsdon'thuntinthunderstorms,orwhenit'sraining.Oramoreacceptedexampletooisthereasonwhyredmakesushungry.It'sbecauselookingthroughthecanopyoftrees,youseearedapple,andit'singrainedintousthat,"Hey,thisiswhat'smakingmehungry."AndifyoulookatlikeMcDonald'sandtheseothercompanies,theydoredbecauseithasaresponsefromyou.

Sowhatwedo,comingbacktoourmusic,isbasicallytakingthethingsthatwedoknowfromanevolutionarylevel,andthroughourtestings,andthroughourdata,andbasicallycombineamodeltocreatesoundsandmusicthatiscreatedwithanactivityinmindfirst.AndthenwebasicallyworkwithourcomposersiterativelywithourAIsystemtooutputthisthingwherein10to15minutesyoucanarrivetoamentalstateon-demand.

Katie:That'ssuperfascinating.Soyou'rebasicallyusingthingsbuiltintoournature,likeyoumentionedthunderstorms,andthenbasicallyrecreatingthosekindsofeffectsinthebraintoaccomplishacertainoutcomeinthebodybasically?I'mguessingthatgoesfaraboveandbeyondjustlikeforinstance,awhitenoisemachine?


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Dan:Correct,yeah.Sothedifferencebetweenwhitenoisemachinesandevensomeofthethingsyoumentionedbeforelikeclassicalmusicandstuff,isthattherearecertainqualitiesofthosethatdowork,right.Butyourbrainisreallygoodatnormalization.Sowhatthatmeansisthatwhenyouhavecertainthingsthataregoingon,youkindofjustadapttothem.Soit'sreallyhotoutsidewhenyouwalkoutside,andthen20minuteslater,you'restilloutside,youbegintosweatbecauseyourbodywantstoreachitshomeostasis.It'sthesamethinginyourbrain,right?

Sowhatwe'redoingisourmusicisincomparisontowhitenoiseortotheseclassicalthings,ordifferentkindsof...reallyalldifferentkindsofmusicthatyou'relisteningormentioning,isthatwescientificallytesteverything.Andwehavea...Iwannasayalmostlikeaningredientlistofthingsthatmakemusicworkinacertainway.Sooneofthethingsyou'llseeisifyoutryourmusicisthatwedon'thaveanylyrics,orsound,orpeopletalkinginourmusicorsinging.

Andthereasonisbecauseevenifyou'relisteningtoyourfavoritesong,andyoureallylikeit,there'stonsofstudiesthatactuallyshowthattakesawayfromwhatyou'redoingforfocusing.Orevenjusttryingtosleepbecauseitdistractsyou,andyouhavetoputenergyintoprocessingthatsoundand,youknow,doingthings.Soeverysinglethingwehavehasaveryspecificapproach.Ithasaveryspecificstartingandendpoint.Andthenweconductandcreatemusicaroundthosedifferentvariationsthatwehavetohittobeableto,again,encouragethatmentalstatemoreeffectivelythanmethodshavedonebefore.

Katie:Interesting.SoyoumentionedsleepandfocusandevenconditionslikeADDandADHDasexamples.Andyoumentionedthatyouscientificallytesteverything.Sowhatwouldbesomeofthepotentiallikemeasurableresultsthatyou'reseeinginpeopleaftertheybeginusingthis?

Dan:Sure.Sowehavecometoscienceonthisindifferentways.Itischallengingtobeabletogivecertainconcreteresultsbecauseevensomeone'sfocusisverydifferentdependingondifferentactivitiesyou'retryingtodo.Ifyou'refocusingontryingto,youknow,doemailsorevenjust,youknow,dosomekindofdeskwork,it'sdifferentfocusthenifyou'redoinghomeworkanddoingmath,forexample.Sowhatwedoiswetestinavarietyofdifferentmethods.

OneiswedofMRIdata,wherebasicallypeopleareinthismachinethatarelisteningtoourmusicversusregularmusic,orwhitenoise,ornomusic,nosoundatall,wedothatwithEEGs.Andwealsodolargescaletestingwithvideogames.Sowehavepeopleplayvideogameswithourmusicversusothermusicornone,justlikebefore,andwe'reabletobasicallydiscern,youknow,whatimprovementswehave.

Soreally,itdependsonthespecificactivity,butacrosstheboard,wecanseepeoplefocusandstayatactivitieslongerthantheynormallywould.Oneofthevideogamesthatwehave,forexample,isit'sactuallyjustpressingaspacebareverytimeyouseeathreeoraneightflashonthescreen.It'saverytediousgame.It'snotdesignedtobestimulating,it'sactuallydesignedtobeboringonpurpose.Butwefindthatwhen


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peoplelisteningtoourmusic,eventhoughit'sataskthatthey'reincentivizedtofinish,thattheystickatitlongerthansomeonethatdoesn't.

Andthattranslatesbasicallytowhenyou'reinthezoneanddoingthingsthatmaybearen'tasenjoyableasyou'dliketodo,beingabletostayandstaymotivatedandgetthroughit,andreallyhave,youknow,results.Attheendoftheday,gettingmoreworkdone,soyoucanfocusondoingmorethingsthatyoufindfunorenjoyable.

Katie:That'sreally,reallycool.Sohowdoesthisonapracticallevelsoundcomparedtoregularmusic?Yousaidthere'snolyrics,isitcomparabletoanythinganyonemightrecognize?Iwishwecouldplayitforpeople,butwhatdoesitsoundlike?

Dan:Yeah,that'sagreatquestion.Soitactuallysoundsjustlikeyourregularmusic.We'vebeendevelopingthistechnologyforlike18yearsnow,soyoucan'treallyfindadiscernibledifference.You'llhearsomeoscillationsthatgoonduringthemusicplay.Wealsousethingsof3Dsound,butwehaveclassicalmusic,wehaveelectronicmusic,wehaveLo-fiandjazzandthingslikethat.Soreallythegoalistofindthegenrethatyoulike.Anditactuallydoesn'tevenreallymatterthegenreorthetypeofmusic,it'smoreaboutthestuffbakedintothemusicbehindthescenes.

Katie:Okay,gotit.Sotakemethroughthepracticalityof...like,isthereacertainwayithastobelistenedto?Canitjustbelikeforinstance,justplayingambientlyinahouse?Ordoesitneedtobelikeviaheadphones?Orhowdoessomeoneinteractwiththemusic?

Dan:Yeah,soitcanbeplayedambientlyinahouse,butthebestconditionsarewhensomeoneisusingitwithheadphones.Sowhatwehaverightnowiswehaveanapp,it'sasubscriptionservice.Andbasically,yougoinandyoupickwhatyouwannalistento.Sofocus,relax,orsleep,youfocus,forexample,andsomeonewouldbelistening.Andwhathappensis,asyoulistentothemusic,howyouinteractwiththemusic,whetheryouskipsomething,orplayit,orpauseit,actuallybuildsthiswholedatapointforyou,andwe'reabletocustomizethemusicforthespecificindividualthat'susingit.

Now,wehavehadinstanceswherewe'reactuallytesting...we'rebuildingatAlexarightnow.Andoneofthepeopleintheprojecthasakidthatisdoingschoolanddoinghomework,andhehasbeenplayingit,youknow,testingit.Andheactuallyfindsthathiskidjustbylisteningintoithasabettertimeconcentratingandfocusingthroughthings.Soit'soneofthosethingsthatIalwaysrecommendthatheadphonesfirst,butifthat'snotsomethingthat'spossibleorreallywanted,thenitcanbeusedambientlylikeyou'resaying.

Katie:Okay,Iwonderedif,like,there'sauseforitpotentiallyinclassrooms,like,Iwonderedifitcouldbeusedwidescalelikethat.Butitsoundslikeit'spreferablyusedmoreindividually,becauseoftheAIbasically,it'slearningfromyou?


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Dan:Correct,yeah,weareactuallyexperimentingwithsomecharterschoolsrightnowandtryingtofigureoutthebestusecaseforthat.Sowe'redoingsomequickstudiesbasically,tosee,youknow,whatthosereactionsare,andI'mhappytosharethoseaswegetthem.

Katie:Awesome.SoI'mstill...Myareaofresearchisnutritioninthebody,soI'mtryingtolikefullywrapmymindaroundhowmusicisimpactingthebrain,isitaphysiologicalthing?Isitlikeanelectricalthing?Isitabrainwavethingorwhat...andisthemusicitself...like,arethewavelengthsdifferent?Ihopethat'snotadumbquestion,butI'mjustcuriousoflike,onaphysiologicallevel,howthebrain'sreactingdifferentlyversusothertypesofmusic?

Dan:Sure.Sobasicallytowalkthrough...andI'mgonnaapologizeinadvancebecauseIamnotthePh.D.responsibleforthis.Wedohavealotofscientistsonstaffthatcantalkaboutthismoreintricately.Butbasically,onamaybenon-scientificlevelisthatwehavedifferentmodulesinourbrain,andwehavedifferentkindsofwaves.Wehave,youknow,thetawaves,deltawaves,thingslikethat.Andthey'vebeenattributedtodifferentmentalstatesthatwehave,right.Andonthemostbasiclevelisthatyourbraintalkstoitself,right,itpostulates.

Sowhathappensis,themorefocusedyouare,thefasterit'soscillating,let'ssay,right?Thisisn'tanexactscience,butthisisagoodrepresentation.Andwhathappensiswe'retalkingrightnow,let'ssaywe'removing,youknow,atacertainspeed,andforyoutobeinafocusedstate,yourbrainhastobemovingfaster,right.Foryoutosleep,yourbrainhastoslowdown.Iknowwe'veallbeen,youknow,lyinginaroomonedaytryingtofallasleepandwecan'tbecauseourmindisracing,wehavesomanythingsonourmind.

So,basically,throughthedifferenteffectsofourmusic,throughthesalientevents,differentkindsofoscillationsthatwedoandmore,we'rebasicallyabletoencouragethebraintospeedupinthisexampleorslowdown,andbeingabletobewhereyouneedtobetoencourageastate.Doesthatmakesense?

Katie:Thatdoes,andIknowlikeI'vereadalittlebitabouthowforinstance,whenyou'remeditating,thebrainisinadifferentstate,andyouhavedifferentlevelsofdifferentwaves,than,forinstance,whenyou'reexercisingorliketakingatest.Sobasically,you'rekindofidentifyingwhatthebrainisdoinginthosedifferentstatesandthenfiguringouthowtostimulatethatpattern?

Dan:Correct.Yep.Andthat'swhywecallitneuralphase-locking.Sowe'reabletoknowthephasethatyourbrainhastobeinto,toencourageyourbraintogothere.Youknow,Ithinkit'simportanttodiscernthatyourbraincanalreadyachievesleeponyourownordeepfocus,right?Allwe'retryingtodoisbeingabletogiveyouanopportunitytohaveashortcutthere.Sopeoplecanjumpintoameditativestate,noproblem,butittakespracticeandalotof,youknow,justpracticeandtime.


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Andthegoalwithmeditation,forexample,isbeingabletogetintoameditativestateandalmostprovidetrainingwheelstogetthere.Sameexactthingforfocusandforsleepingthat...eventually,ifyoulieinbedlongenough,you'llfallasleep,butitcouldbeadifferencebetween15minutesor2hours,andthat'swhatourproductistryingtoaccomplish.

Katie:Gotyou,okay.AndIknowbasedonyourbio,youmentionedthatyouwereoneofthefirstusers,andyounowareservingastheCEOofthecompany.SoI'dloveto,beforewegofurther,hearyourpersonalstory.BecausethemoreIaminvolvedinthehealthworld,themoreIrealizethatthereissomuchvalueintheNEqualsOnestudiesandtheanecdotalevidence.Iwouldlovetohearyourjourneyandhowyou'veimplementedthisinyourownlife.

Dan:Sure.I'mhappytogothroughbothofthose.Soforfirst,Iwasworkinginadvertisingbeforewhatwe'redoingnow,andIhavealwaysbeeninterestedinhuman2.0stuff,right.So,nootropics,differentdiets,differentkindsofpractices,likemeditationandthingsofthatnature.I'vereallytrieditall.I'mnormallyonaketosisdiet,actuallyjustjumpingbackontoittomorrow.Sothat'llbefun.

Butanyway,IcameacrossthisBrain.fminanemail,right,justrandomlywhentheywerelaunchingtheirthing,Imusthavesignedupforitbefore.AndIwasinterested,youknow,I'veheardofsimilarproductslikethisbeforeandtriedit,andwasjustabsent-mindedlythinkingoutatthetime,Iwascoding,I'maDeveloper,andwasworkingonsomething.Andtwohourslater,IkindofcamebackandIwaslike,"Whoa,lookatallthisstuffIdid?Ican'tbelieveit'sonlybeentwohours,howmuchI'veaccomplished."AndIwasveryinterestedthen,soIlookedthroughthescienceandIgo,"Wow,thisplaceis...There'ssomethinghere."

AndthenIrememberbuyingatthetime,youknow,asubscriptionforthewholeyear,andIwaslike,"Thisisinteresting."AndIjuststartedusingitandusingit,andIgo,"Okay,thisisarocketship.Thishasanopportunitytoreallychangetheworld,andIwannabepartoftheride."So,youknow,Iremembercallingthemabunchandtheyweretellingmethattheydidn'thavethebudget.AndIendedupquittingmyjobtostartworkingforfreeforamonthimprovingit.Andyouknow,loandbehold,nowI'minmypositionnowandrunningit.

Andit'sreallyinterestingbecauseI'vetheuniquepositiontoknowwhatIfeltinthatmoment,andmyfirstexperience,andbeingabletoseetheopportunitythatBrain.fmhastohelppeople.Imean,attheendtheday,I'mnowinthepositiontoinfluencethat,andthegoalofthecompanyisreallytobringoutthebestofwhat'sinsideeveryoneautomatically.Anditdoesn't...Thecoolthingaboutwhatwe'redoingisitdoesn'tevenmatterifyouspeakEnglish,orFrench,orMandarin,oranywhereintheworld,itreallydependsonlike,youknow,thesethingsthatmakeushuman.Andthat'swhatourmusicistryingtodo,again,bringoutthebestinyourself.Andatthattime,that'sexactlywhatIfelt.

Soforyourotherpartofyourquestion,thewayIuseitisIwakeupeverydayandIhaveacertainto-dolist.AndwhatItrytodoisItrytobuildahabitoutofit.SoIhavecertainzonetimesinmycalendar,IdoMondays


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andTuesdaysinthemorningforlikeanhour.OnWednesdays,Idoabouttwoandahalfhoursorso.Andthen,youknow,ThursdayandFridayusuallyinthemorningaswell.AndthenwhatIdoisIreservethattime,soIputonfocusandIwillbasically,youknow,plugawayatmyto-dolist,whatIneedtoaccomplish.Doingsomeemails,youknow,I'mrunningthecompanysoI'mconstantly,youknow,havingdifferentkindsofconversations.AndItrytojustagainhavethatzonetime.

AndthenIcomeoutofit,haveabunchofmeetings,recordpodcastslike,youknow,rightnow,andthenjumpbackintoit.SoI'llprobablydoanothersessionlatertoday.OnsomedaysItrytogetintomeditation.SoI'llbringthatoutanddolikea20or30-minutesession.Andthenforme,again,livinginNewYorkCity,Iusesleep.SoIputthatonaprettyhighfidelityBluetoothspeaker,andIblastit,andthathelpsmefallasleep.I'malsotestingotherproductsthatwe'reworkingonforthefuturebecausewe're,again,tryingtoenablementalstateson-demand.Andthat'smoreencompassing,justfocus,relax,andsleep.Andwe'vegotsomereallycoolstuffplannedforthefuture.

Katie:That'sreallyinteresting.AndIthinkthefocuscomponentcouldbereallyhuge.Mostofthepeoplelisteningaremoms.Alotofthemareworkingmoms.SoI'dlovetohearsomecasescenariosorwaysthatyou'refindingusersareusingthemusicinespeciallylikefamilylife,orformoms,orforsleep.Andasacorollarytothatquestion,IknowalotoflistenersareconcernedwithEMFs.AndsoI'mwondering,canitbeusedwhileforinstanceaphoneordeviceisinairplanemodeatnight?Canyoudownloadittoyourphone?

Dan:Yeah.Sotwoofthose,firsteasyquestionisyoucandownloadit.Sowehaveofflinesettings,andyoucanjustdownloadyourfavoritetracksandthenplaythematwill.Fortheotherthings...Sorry,actually,canyoujustrepeatthefirstoneIgotdistractedbytheEMF.

Katie:Sure.Solikebestuserecommendationsformomsandforkids.

Dan:Yeah,ofcourse.Okay.Soreallywhatpeopledoistheytrytousethisasatool,right,andforbusymomsworkingout...I'mnotabusymom,butit'saboutgettingmoretimeandgettingmoredoneinthelimitedtimethatyouhave.Becausebasically,whenyoudohavetime,youknow,tositdownandgetworkdone,youknow,ifyoucouldgetsixhoursofworkdoneinfourhours,thatwouldbeanaccomplishment.Andthat'souraim,right?

Samethingwithsleep.So,youknow,unfortunately,wecan'tallsleepeighthoursanightthatwe'dliketo,orifwecan,wewannamakesurethatwecanoptimizethat.Soreally,alotofpeopleareusingusforoneortheother.Somepeopleareusingthemforboth.Itreallydependsonwhatworksforthem.Igetemailsallthetimefrompeoplethatsaid,"Hey,youknow,Ihaven'tsleptthroughthenightinyearsbecauseof,youknow,this,thisorthat."


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Imean,evenafteryou'reamom,andyourkidsareoldenoughlikemymomtotakecareofyourself,right?Shestillwakesup,youknow,inthat,"Oh,hey,whereare..."Thesethingsthatpopupinyourmindbecause,youknow,youhaveallthesekidsorbecauseyouhavealltheseotherstressesinlife.Andit'sreallyagainaboutusingitasatooltoquietyourmind,andabletohave,youknow,reallymoreproductiononwhateveryou'retryingtodo.Whetherit'sfocusingorsleeping.

Katie:Gotit.AndI'mcurioushowthiscomparesto...IknowI'veseenothertypesofmusicthataresupposedtointeractwiththebrainindifferentwayslikebinauralbeatsifI'mrememberingthatone,orlikeforinstance,Wholetoneswe'vehadonthepodcastbefore.I'mcuriousthedifferencesandsimilarities?

Dan:Yeahsure.So,binauralbeatsandsomeothertonesthathavepromisedtodothisinthepast.Binauralbeatsspecificallyhashadbasicallyaleftoverpopsidefromlikethe'70swithsubliminalmessagingandthingslikethat.There'salotofdatathatshowedalotofpromiseinthat,buteventually,itactuallygotdismissed.Andthere'sbeentonsofstudiestoshowthatyourbrainkindofnormalizestoit,anditcanhaveactuallyretroactiveeffects.

Themaindifferenceisthatwehavelong-termstudiesthatshowincreasedeffects.Andweactuallybelievethemoreyouuseourservice,thefasteryoucanflyintothosezones,becausethenitstartsprimingyourbrainonwhat’sgoingtohappen.Sojustlikewhenyouwakeupinthemorning,andyouhaveyourcupofcoffee,andyousay,"Hey,youknow,Ican'tstartmydaywithouthavingacoffee."It'spartofthattriggerthatsays,"Hey,mydayisstarting.Ihavetogetup,Ihavetowakeup,"kindofthing.Samethingforoursleep,andourfocus,andalltheotherproductsthatwehave.

Katie:Soyoumentionedthestudyacoupleoftimesandalsothegrant,canyouexplainthestudiesthatyouguyshavedoneandtheongoingresearchthatyou'redoing?Andthenhowyou'reabletoworkwithinthisgrant?

Dan:Yeah,ofcourse.Sowe'vedonemultiplestudiesbeforeonourfocusandoursleep,right.We'vedoneEEGstudiesandbasicallypilotstudiesaswell.Sotounpackallofthatstuff,oneofthepilotstudieswedidwaswiththeU.S.wrestlingteam.SothelastSummerOlympicsgoinguptoitwegavethemoursleepproduct.AndafterusingusconsistentlyforIbelieveitwasfourmonths,weactuallyhadtheyoungestmalecompetitorssweepgold,andthemalewrestlingteamdidoverallverywell.

Sothatwasoneofourfirstsleeppilotstudies.Andthenwestarteddoingmorestudiesagain,withEEGanddatathatwasabletoeffectivelyshowevidencethatsomeonewouldhavebetterslowwavesleep.There'sdifferentkindsofsleep,there's,youknow,REMsleep,slowwave,amongotherones.Butbasically,slow-waveisresponsiblefortheunderstandingorthememorizationofcertainthingsandtasks.It'salsoresponsibleforhealingandbeingabletofeelrestful.There'stheoriesandit'sinterestingbecausewe'reonthecuttingedgeofneuroscience,we'restilllearningalotabouthowthebrain,youknow,reactsandis.It'soneofthestillmysteriesof,youknow,howourconsciousnessishereandallthat,andwe'rerightupagainstthat.


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Andthere'sbeenstudiestoshowthatslow-wavesleepisalsoresponsiblefordegenerativebraindiseases.Andyouknow,we'rehopingthatourproductcanhelpwiththat.Forourfocusgrantspecifically,wewonagrantfromtheNationalScienceFoundation,tohelpusstudytheeffectivenessofourmusicincomparisontodifferentADHDandADDtreatmentsonthemarketrightnow.

Sobasicallyrightnowwe'restillintesting.ButthenextphaseofthegrantsetsusupthroughgettingthroughFDAapproval,andthroughclassification.Soin5to10yearsrightfromhere,ifeverythinggoesinthedirectionit'sgoingrightnow,wecouldbeoneofthefirstdigitalprescribedmedicinesthroughdoctorsactually.

Katie:That'sfascinating.Iknowalotofmomslisteningaregonnabeinterested,especiallyasthisbecomesmoreavailable.Becausetherearen't,Idon'tfeellikespectacularoptionsavailablerightnow,otherthanthepharmaceuticaloptionswhichalotofmomsarealittlebitleeryof,understandably.Sothat'sexciting.

ThispodcastisbroughttoyoubyReady.Set.Food!anewcompanyrevolutionizingfoodallergypreventioninchildren.Weallknowthatthisproblemisontherise,andmostofusknowsomeonewhohasachildwithfoodallergies,orhavehadthisexperienceourselves.Therearemanytheoriesforthisandcertainlymanyproblemsthatneedtobeaddressedlikeguthealthandimmunesupport.Ready.Set.Food!istakingthecuttingedgeresearchandscienceandusingitinapracticalwaytohelpbabiesandchildrenavoidfoodallergiesinthefirstplace.Here’show.Themostuptodatestudiesareshowingthatcarefullycalculatedearlyexposureintherightamountscanstopmanycasesoffoodallergies!Ready.Set.Food!makesthiseasywithasimplesystemthatcanbeaddedtobreastmilk,formulaorbaby’sfirstfoodstogiveincrementalandcalculatedexposuretothetopallergenslikepeanuts,eggandmilk.Whenusedasdirected,thiscanreducethechanceofallergiesbyupto80%anditisrecommendedandoverseenbymanyofthenationstoppediatricians.Learnmoreaboutthisevidencebasedapproachatreadysetfood.com/wellnessmama

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Katie:Fromamom'sperspectivetoo,I'mthinkingwhenitcomestolikehealthandlife,andjustbalance,kidssleepingisoneofthebiggestfactorsthatmakesadifference.


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Soyoumentioneditcanbeplayedambientlyandinairplanemode.Doesthismeanforinstance,likeallofmykidssleepatleasttwooftheminaroom,socouldIputthatonwhilethey'resleeping?Andtheycouldallbelistening?

Dan:Totally,yeah,sowhenweweretalkingearlier,there'sactuallyadifferencebetweenthesoundsandthesoundscapeswehave,andevenjustthefrequenciesofourfocusproductandoursleepproduct.Sofocusisbestagainoverheadphones,itcanbeplayedambiently,butIusuallyrecommendheadphones.Butforsleep,becauseit'ssuchaslowwavesound,andbecauseofthedifferentfrequenciesarelongerthere'saneasyuseofbeingabletoconnectitthroughaBluetoothdevice.

Ithastobe...IkeepsayingBluetoothandconnectingitisbecauseyourphonewhileitcanplaymusic,itneedstohavethedepthofsound.Soitneedstohavethelowfrequenciesthatwe'replayingtohelpbemosteffective.Soyoudefinitelycould,Katie,throwitintoaroomandputitonairplanemodeandputitonforeighthoursandgetthesamebenefitsthanputtingonheadphonesandlistening.

Katie:Okay,youjustwantahigh-qualityspeakerthatcangetthefullrangebasically?

Dan:Yep.

Katie:Okay.Canyouexplainalittlemoreindepthwhytheheadphonesapplymoretothefocusone?Isitthatthere's...like,istheredivisionbetweenwhateachearishearingorjustthewavesthemselves?Orwhatmakesthatmoreimportantwithfocus?

Dan:Sothere'salotofhighfrequencysoundsthatwe'replayingthatarealittlebitindecipherablewhenyou'retryingtolistentothem.Butbasically,whenyouhavethesehigh-frequencysounds,they'removingreally,reallyfastinaroom,theybounceoffofthings.Andwhentheyfinallyhityourear,it'shardforyourbraintodecipherwhatisactuallyhappening,orwhatisthosesounds.Soit'sreallyeasyformetodovisuallywithmyhands,butunfortunately,wedon'thavethatmethodrightnow.

Butbasically,thinkof...Idon'tknow,Iguessthinkofmyhandgoingupanddownextremelyquickly,right.Andthosearethewavesofsoundthatareenteringfromspeakers.Andwhenthosewaveshitanobject,there'sjustaton...there'sevenmorewavesthataremovingfaster,andfaster,andfaster.Andthentheyfinallyhityourear,anditcanbelost.It'slikeadatatransmissionthing.Whereitstillworks,youstillhavecellphoneservice,butit'snotasstrong.Sothat'swhyIkeepsayingifyouaregonnauseit,youknow,ambientlytousethehighestfidelityspeaker,orbeingrightnexttothedeviceworksaswell.

Butincomparisonaresleep,whichisslowwave,becauseit'saslowwavesoundwhereas,youknow,orsomethinglikethat,thatisn'tbakedintothemusicbehind,thatisactuallydoingtheeffects,whenitbounces


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offanobjectandgoestoyourear,yourbrain,actually,becauseit'ssoslowcandiscernthedifferenceandactuallypieceittogether.Andthat'swhyit'smoreeffective.Andit'sokayifit'sjuststreamingoffofadevice.

Katie:Okay,superinteresting,Ithinkthatmakessense.Withthefocussideespeciallyareyouguysseeing...like,whoareyourmostusecasesforthat?Areyouseeinglotsofstudents,forinstance,orresearchers?Or,whoareyoufindingisusingitmostoften?

Dan:Yeah,goodquestion.So,forfocus,ourbiggestdemographicareactuallyentrepreneursanddifferenttypesofpeoplethathavetheseveryintensivejobs.Soentrepreneurs,beingoneofthem,beingabletoneedto,youknow,findastateoffocuson-demandbecauseit'sverychallengingtofindthatwith,youknow,runningacompanyorwhatever.Wealsodohavealotofstudents.Butwealsohavetonsofdoctorsandlawyersthathavetohavethisdeepworkinbeingableto,youknow,gettoaplace.

Wealsofindalotofpeoplethatgenerallyusemusicalready.Sodevelopers,peopleinfrontofcomputerscreensallthetime,they'reusingus.Andthenlastly,wehavetonsandtonsofwriters.Andthisisallforthefocusproduct,butbasically,peoplethatareresponsibleforwritingXamountofwordsaday.They'reabletofindtheirflowstatealotfasterwithus.

Onthesleepside,it'sactuallyareallywidespectrum.WehavealotofpeoplewithPTSDthatuseus.Igettonsandtonsoflovelettersallthetimefrompeoplethathavechallengessleeping,evenpeoplethatareon,youknow,prescriptionsthathavetriedus.Andit'sreally,Iwouldsaymoreaboutthepeoplethatneedhelpsleeping,butalsoaboutthepeoplethatwantthatbetternight'ssleepandarelookingformorealternativestogetit.That'sprettymuchthecoreofourdemographics.

Katie:Youusethewordflowstate.AndI'mcuriousbecauseI'veread,forinstance,like,"StealingFire"byStevenKotlerand,"TheRiseofSuperman,"booksthatlookattheflowstateandthephysiologicalandpsychologicaleffects.Sowiththefocusside,areyouguysabletosortofmimicthebrainpatternsthatactuallyhappeninaflowstate?Iknowtheytalkaboutthecyclethathappensinthebrainwhenthatinitiates,isthatessentiallywhatyouguysareimitatingoraccomplishing?

Dan:SoI'mgonnabeverycareful,andIdon'tknowifIcansayspecificallywe'reinflowstate,becausethere'salotofdifferentkindsofreadingsthatareattributedtothat.AndIjusthaven'tworkedcloselyenoughwiththemoverthereyet,butwe're...youknow,wehavetalkedaboutit.Sowe'recurrentlypursuingandseeingwherethatgoes.Butyes,Imean,we'retryingtofindthezonereally,andtryingtofind,youknow,intenseanddeepfocusthatyou'reabletoreplicatetimeandtimeoveragain.

Ithinkthatit'sverysimilarandIguess...FlowpoppedoutbecauseI'mjustheretalkingtoyouhereinmyoffice.Butyeah,again,that'sreallywhatwe'retryingtodoishowdowemakeyougettothisplaceof,justgetting...likefeelingyoucanfly,anddoingallthethingsthatyouneedtodowithoutnecessarilythinking?


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Becausethechallenge...It'slikegoingtothegym,right,whenyou'reatthegym,it'snotnecessarilyhardtogotothegymbecauseallyouhavetodoisreallyliftweights,orrun,orwhatever,thosearen'tchallengingexercises.It'sthepersoninsideofyouthatissaying,"Well,Iwonderaboutthis,"or,"Iwonderaboutthat,"oryouknow,"DidIlockmyhouse?"Or,"Oh,wow,thisisreallychallenging,thisistough."Andit'saboutquietingthatindividual,right.

Andthat'sthesameforsleeping,that'sthesameforfocusing,that'sthesameforworkingout.It'sallaboutbasicallyaligningtofocusontheactivity.Andreally,it'salmostkindoflikemeditation,youknow,takingoutyourbusybrainandreplacingitwiththeonethat'sdoingthetask.Doesthatmakesense?

Katie:Itdoes.Andespeciallyonthemeditationside,thatresonateswithme,becauseI'mnotthetypetobeabletoeversitandthinkaboutnothing,I'veneverbeensupersuccessfulatmeditationinthatway.ButifIhavelikeafocusorsomethingIcanconcentrateonthat'sstillcreatingthatsamestate,thenIammuchmoresuccessful.SothatpartIlovetheideaof.Arethefocusandthesleeparetheypartofthesameprograms?Orifsomeonewantedtotryit,wouldtheygetaccesstoboth?

Dan:Yep.Sobasically,we'reasubscriptionservice,andwhenyousignupforthesubscription,yougetaccesstoallofourcontentandourgrowinglibrary.Soyou'reabletousefocus,relax,sleep,wealsohavenapandmeditationinthere.And,likeIhintedatbefore,we'reworkingondifferentproductsforthefuture.Oneofthoseisbeingworkoutactually,whichwehavesomereallyinterestingpreliminarystudieson.We'renot,unfortunately,probablygonnareleasethatuntil2020,andthat'sbecause,again,we'resciencefirst,andwewannamakesurethateveryproductthatwehavehasbeentested,andhasresultsthatwelloutpacelike,"Hey,isthisaplacebo?Isthissomething..."youknow,allofourtestsaregoingaboveandbeyondtoprovethat,youknow,thisisamethodtohelpimprovebeyondjust,youknow,thethoughtsofit.So,yeah,makealongstoryshort,iswhenyougetaccesstoourservice,yougetaccesstoeverything,andalsothefuturestuffthatwe'regonnabeadding.

Katie:Verycool.Andaswegetneartheend,acoupleofquestionssomewhatunrelatedthatIlovetoask,andcan'twaittohearyouranswersto.Thefirstis,isthereabookorbooksthathavehadaprofoundimpactonyourlifethatyou'drecommend?Andtheydon'tobviouslyhavetobeinthesameveinofthoughtortopic?

Dan:Yeah,ofcourse.SoIthinkthere'sabunchofbooks.Ilovethebook,"Relentless."That'sabookaboutbasicallychannelingyourenergy,andittalks...TherewasacoachofMichaelJordan.Andactuallyittalksabout,gettingreallyhonestwithyourselfaboutwhywewanttoaccomplishatask,andIalwayslovethatbook.Ithink,"TheSlightEdge"isagreatbookaswell.Anditbasicallytalksabouthowyoucanimproveveryslightlyeverysingleday.Forexample,ifyou'regoingfor10%or20%increasesovermonths,youknow,itcouldwork,andyoucouldhavethesehugegainsoryoucoulddo1%.Andifyoujustmadeyourself1%bettereverydayforayear,you'dbe365%betterthanwhenyoustarted.


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Andyouknow,that'ssomethingthat'salwayshadamajorimpactonmebecauseit'snotnecessarilyabout,youknow,stoppingeverythinganddoingeverythingperfectly.It'sjustaboutgettingalittlebitbettereveryday.

Katie:Ilovebothofthoserecommendations.Andthenlastly,iftherewasapieceofadvicethatyoucouldspreadfarandwide,whatwoulditbeandwhy?Becausethereisacouplehundredthousandpeoplewholistentothis,soI'mcuriouswhatyouradvicewouldbe.

Dan:Yeah,Ithinkhonestly,it'dbeaboutunitingyourpassionwithsomethingthatcanhelppeople.Soyouknow,mypassionforwhatIbringtoeverydayforBrain.fmisabout...Youknow,Ihonestlytrulyfeelthatwehaveanopportunitytohelpelevatehumanityasawhole,andthatIcandothatbyspreading,youknow,whatwe'redoing.Andthat'swhywe'redoingitwiththescience,andthat'swhy,youknow,I'mhereeventalkingaboutitbecausewehavesomethingthatisveryeffectiveandI'mexcitedtoshareit.

AndIthinkthatinanything,it'sabouthavingthatpassionfirstbeforedoingsomething.Becauseinotherareasoflifeor,youknow,seeingotherpeoplesometimestheirpassionistogetmoney,ortheirpassionistoget,youknow,xory.Andwhilethosemayfundyouforalittlebit,they'renotforever.Ithinkwhenyouhavethispassion,youunitepeopleandreallyhelpallofhumanity,that'ssomethingthatcanreallygofarandbeyond,youknow,justdoingsomethingtodoit.

Katie:Ilovethat,andIcompletelyagree.I'msogratefuleverydaythatIgettodosomethingthatbothIloveandit'ssuperfulfilling,butmoreimportantly,Ifeellikeiscreatingapositiveeffectinsomewayinotherpeople'slives.Ithinkthatdefinitelycannotbeunderestimated.AndIlovethatthatiswhatyoubroughtup.

Dan,thankssomuch,thishasbeensuperenlightening.IhavenottriedBrain.fm,butitisonmylist,andIdefinitelywillbetryingitnow.AndIappreciateyouexplainingbecauseIhavewonderedaboutthescienceandhowitworks.Andyoudefinitelyansweredallofmyquestions.SoI'mreallygratefulforyourtimeandforyoubeingheretoday.

Dan:Yeah,mypleasure.Thanksforhavingme.

Katie:Andthankstoallofyoufortuningin.AndIhopethatyou'lljoinmeagainnexttimeon,"TheWellnessMamaPodcast."

Ifyou'reenjoyingtheseinterviews,wouldyoupleasetaketwominutestoleavearatingorreviewoniTunesforme?Doingthishelpsmorepeopletofindthepodcast,whichmeansevenmoremomsandfamiliescouldbenefitfromtheinformation.Ireallyappreciateyourtime,andthanksasalwaysforlistening.

episode 224: how to use sound and music to optimize focus ...the worst thing that happens is we get...

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