ep 02 transcript - amazon s3...nauv: i guess within the context of business and ownership generally,...

THE SAVVY DENTIST PODCAST WITH DR JESSE GREEN

© The Sageman Trust

EP 02 AUSTRALIA'S LEADING BUSINESS AUTHOR ANDREW GRIFFITHS WITH HIS TIPS AND TRICKS FOR SUCCESS

Jesse: Goodevening,ladiesandgentlemen.Wehaveaspecialguestwithustonight,Dr.NauvKashyap,whoisanexpertintheartofstartingapracticeandindeedhelpingdentiststransitiontoownership.Nuav,thankyousomuchforcomingalongtonight.It'sgreattohaveyou.

Nauv: Thanks,Jesse.Thanksforhavingme.Lookingforwardtoit.

Jesse: We'regoingtohaveabitoffuntonight.Nauv,you'reaverywell-knownfigureinthedentalcommunitycertainlyinAustraliaandNewZealand.You'rearegularposterintheforumsofDPRandDPOandothers,andsothere'llbealotoflistenerswhoarefamiliarwithyou,butthere'llbeequallysomenewlistenerswhoaren'tfamiliarwithyouandyourstories.Iwaswondering,mate,ifyouwouldn'tmindjustsharingalittlebitofyourstorywithus.Forthosewhodon'tknow,Nauvhasstarted11practices,whichisphenomenal.Thatisaphenomenalrecord.There'snottoomanypeopleIcanthinkofwhowouldhavedonemorethanthat.Mate,Iwaswonderingifyouwouldn'tmindjustgivingusalittlebitaboutyourbackground,tellingusalittlebitaboutyourstory,andthenwe'llgofromthere.

Nauv: Yeah.Sure,Jesse.IguessitallstartedwhenIgraduatedfromdentistrybackin2006.Ihadayearofworkingasadentist.Itwasalwaystheplantodomedicinefollowingdentistryandgettingtosurgeryandtherestofit,butIenjoyedmyfirstyearofworking.Ididalotofsurgerywith...Asyouknow,Idoalotofwisdomteethsurgery.Idecidedtostickwithdentistryandthenwehadtheoptiontobuyapracticequiteearlyoninmycareer,whichIdid.IsawalotofopportunityandIcapitalizedonit.Thenfromthere,frommyfirstpractice,itwasquiteafewyearsbeforethesecondpracticestarted,butoncesystemswereestablishedandIhadareallygoodcashflowwiththosefirst2practices,thenfromnumber3tonumber11wasquiteaquickprocess.Iguess,yeah,thekeythingthereformewasestablishingagoodbaseinitially,andoncethatbasewasestablished,thenitreallydidbecomealoteasiertodocertainthingsandexpandrapidly,Iguess.

Jesse: Fantastic.Asyou'vegonethroughthisjourney,hastherebeenanyunderlyingphilosophythat'sguidedyourdecision-makingprocessaroundthis?Hastherebeenanoverarchingplan?Didyoubeginwiththeendinmindsotospeakorhasitbeensomethingthat'sevolvednaturally?

Nauv: Yeah,it'saninterestingquestion.Ididgetaskedthisalittlebit,butforme,Ican'thonestlysaythatIbeganwiththeendinmind.Therewasnoway,ifsomeonehadtoldmebackin2008whenIboughtmyfirstpracticethat2015I'dhavestarted11,Idon'tthinkthere'sanywaythatIwouldhavebelievedthem.Inthatrespect,no,buttherewasalotofthingsthatIdidIguessbychancethatreallyhelpedsetmeupforthatlevelofgrowth,andIthinkthemajorthingwasthatIwasverypro-delegationfromthebeginning.

SAVVY DENTIST PODCAST TRANSCRIPT


TherewasalotofthingsinmypracticeIdidn'tknowhowtodo.IleftittoapracticemanagerthatIreallytrusted,andthatfreedupalotofmytimetolookforstartuplocationsandsetthestrategicdirectionforthegroup.Ithinkthatthatobviouslyhelped,butatthestart,itwasn'tlikeIwasactivelythinkingifIdelegateeverythingandbecompletelyhandsoff,thenI'llbeabletogrowquiterapidly.ItwasthefunctionofhowIsetouttodothingsatthebeginning.

Jesse: That'sareallyinterestingpoint,Nauv,becausethat'sabitcounter-intuitiveformostdentists,becausemostdentiststendtoliketobeincontrolofalotofthings.WhatI'mhearingyousayisyouconsciouslygaveupcontrolofcertainelementsofyourpracticesothatyoucouldfocusinotherareas.AmIinterpretingthatcorrectly?

Nauv: Yeah,exactlyright.I'vealwaysbeenonetofocusonmystrengths,andmystrengthsaren'tclinicaldentistryotherthansurgery.Obviously,Ienjoywisdomteeth.Ihadalotoftrainingtodothemtoquiteahighlevel,butthere'salotofadministrativetasks,alotofbookkeeping,andalotofthingslikethatthathaveneverbeenmystrengthandneverwillbe.IguessmarketingisastrengthofminebecauseIenjoyitandIdoabitofresearchintoit.I'vereallytriedtofocusonmystrengths,whereasI'veoutsourcedalotofmyweaknesses,andIthinkthat'shelpedabitalongtheway.

Jesse: Ithinkthat'samassiveinsightthereforanyonelistening,ismakingsurethatyou'replayingtoyourstrengths.Again,Nauv,I'dbeinterestedtoknow,I'msurethatthat'saphilosophythat'sgoingthroughyourorganizationaswell,isputtingpeopleinrolesthatplaytotheirstrengths,ifI'massumingthat.AmIcorrectinassumingthat?

Nauv: Yeah.Well,fromtheclinicallevel,agreatexampleofthatisourmodelisverydifferenttoalotofconventionaldentalpracticesoutthereinthatwehavepseudo-specialistsorpractitionerswithspecialareasofinterest.Apatientthatcomesthroughoursurgerycouldwellseealotofdifferentpractitioners,andthere'sargumentsforandagainstthatkindofthing,butIfirmlybelievethatifyou'reseeingthebestpersonforacertainprocedure,thenthat'smoreideal.

We'vegotaguythatdoesrootcanalsreallyhighlevel.Idowisdomteethsurgery.We'vegotdentistsandacoupleofdentistswithalotofexperience.Yeah,itisaboutfocusingonthestrengthsaswell,andnotsomuch...Ihadlunchwithadentisttoday,oradentalstudenttoday,andhewassayinghowhe'sreallytriedtobuilduphisweaknesses,butforme,it'sbeenaboutlettinggoofyourweaknessesandfocusingonstrengths.Ithinkthat'sbeenamajorguidingphilosophy,yeah.

Jesse: Yeah.Ireallyconcurwiththat.WhatIfoundcertainlyinmyownlifeaswellisthethingsthatIenjoy,I'mgenerallybetteratbecauseIenjoyit.IputmoretimeandeffortinitandIinherentlydeveloptheskillsjustthroughinterestlevels.Likeyou,therearealotofthingsthatI'mreallylousyat,andI'mmorethanhappytohavethosetakenoffmyplate,too.Asyou'vegonethroughthisjourney,clearly,11startups,andyouwouldhavelearnedathingor2clearly,whatwouldbe...Aspeoplearelisteninghere,whatwouldbethenumberoneor2or3thingsthatyouthink,withthebenefitofhindsight,turnedouttobeboo-boos?Werethereanykeyblundersorkey,Isuppose,trapsforyoungplayersintermsofstartingapractice?



Nauv: Iguesswithinthecontextofbusinessandownershipgenerally,thebiggesttrapthatyoungownersIthinkgetintoistherelationshipwiththeirstaff.Often,asayoungbusinessowner,youhaveareallyyoungteam,andthetendencyistheretowanttogetreallyclosetoyourteam,tosocializewithyourteam,haveFridaynightdrinksandkickontoapub,andallthatkindofthing,andI'mguiltyofthat.Iwasguiltyofthatintheearlydays,buttheproblemthatthatdoesisitsetsitupforareallyuncomfortabletimewhenthingsstarttoturnaround.Whenyouwanttodisciplineastaffmemberorhaveatalktothemaboutsomethingthattheyperhapshaven'tdonetherightwayorhowyou'dlikethemtoimprove,it'samuchmoredifficultconversationtohavewithsomeonewho'safriendandsomeonewhoisastaffmember,soIthinkit'sreallyimportanttomaintainthatboundary.

That'sbeenoneofthemajorlessonsI'vedeveloped,andthatwassimplybymakinghugemistakesinthatregardearlyon.IguessintermsofthingsthatI'vedoneright,justfromayoungage,I'vealwayshadmyparentsinstillinusthephilosophythattobuildupyourownbusiness,youdon'thavetodestroyanyoneelse'sordestroyingsomeoneelse'sbusiness,orifyoudigsomeoneelse'sgrave,Godwillhavedugyourgravereadyforyou.IthinkalotofthatguidesalotoftheprinciplesthatIfollow.

Jesse: That'sareallyniceprinciple.Again,forthosewhodoknowyou,Nauv,willknowthatyou'reverygenerousinwhatyoushareinvariousforumsandsoon.Interestinglyenough,justasasmalltopic,Iwastalkingtofriendofmine,AndrewGriffiths,who,extraordinarilygiftedmarketer,extraordinarilygiftedpublicpresenter.He'sjustareallylovelyguy.HeandIwerehavingaconversationalittlewhileago,andwethinkoneofthenewcurrenciesisreallygenerosity.Idon'tknow.Doyouhaveatakeonthat?That'snotreallyaconversationthatIthoughtwe'dbehavingtonight,butdoyouhaveanyviewsongenerosityascurrencyatall?

Nauv: Yeah,it'salittlephilosophical,butIthinkmyviewonitisthat,asyouknow,youandIhavedisagreedpreviouslyontherolethatluckplays,butforme,IfeellikethepositionI'vebeenin,althoughIhaveworkedhardandtherestofthat,alotofithasbeenluck.I'mquite,Iguess,fortunatetobeinthepositionIamatsuchanearlyage,butpartofthatisalsogivingbacktopeoplewhohaven't.IthinkItakethatviewwhenItrytosupportyoungerdentists,advocateforyoungerdentists,helpeducateyoungerdentistsinthepasttotransitiontoownership,butalso,wisdomteethsurgery,Iregularlyhavedentistsfromtheforumscomeandwatchmetakewisdomteethoutandthatkindofthing.Allthatisfreeofcharge,butit'ssomethingthat,yeah,it'smorebecauseIfeltlikeI'vegottentowhereIhavebecauseofluckandIshouldgivebackalittle.

Jesse: WearegoingtodelveintotheroleofluckinaminutebecauseIknowthat'ssomethingthatyouandIdo,yeah,kickaroundalittlebit,sowe'llcertainlygetintothatinamoment.Again,justwhilewe'reonthestartupjourneyyou'vehad,andIsupposeoneofthemostwatchedspeechesyou'llseeontheinternetisSteveJobs'addresstotheStanfordUnigraduates,andoneofthethingshesaysisyoucan'tmakethedotsforward.Youcanonlyconnectthem,withthebenefitofhindsight,lookingbackwards.Asyoulookbackandconnectthedotsinyourjourney,whatthingsdoyouthinkyoudidwell?Thingsthatyoumightnothaveknownatthetime,butthingsthatturnedouttobemasterstrokes.

Nauv: Ithinkleadingonfromthepointinitially,andIwon'tgobacktothat,focusingonmystrengths,butanextensiontothatwasreallypickingwelltheteamthatIestablishedaroundme.WhatIfoundisoneofmymajorprinciplesinmypersonalrelationships,inmychoosingoffriends,andtherestofthathasbeenhonesty.Ivaluehonestyabovepretty



muchallelse.IfoundthatIgravitatedtowardspeoplewhovaluethesamewhendealingwithbusiness.

I'vegotasituationnowwhereifIhavefoundalocationforastartuppractice,Iprettymuchpickupthephoneformy…guy,himandIarrangeameeting,wegothere,wehave30minutestolookatthebuilding,I'vealreadydoneallmyresearch,hemeasuresitout,within2dayshegivesmeafloorplan,ImakeanychangesIwanttomake,andthenthenexttimeIgotothatpractice,it'swhenit’sfittedup.Thesamethinghappenswithmyequipmentguy.We'vegotastandardorderofequipmentthatwehave.Whenyoucanautomateittothatlevel,IputinthetimeintohowmuchtimeIlookoutintoastartup.Mypersonaltimeisliterallybetween5to10hours,it'sverylittle,whereasthepersonthat'sstartingtheirfirstpractice,obviously,they'reputtingmany,manymorehoursinthat.

IthinkthekeythingwasbecauseIvaluehonesty,I'vegravitatedtowardspeoplethatwerequitehonest,andthatservedmewellinthebusinessworld.Thelesson,Iguessthegreaterlessonfromthatis,andthequestionyouwereasking,isthatyouneedtodobusinesswithpeoplethatsharethesamevaluesthatyoushare.Ithinkthat'shelpedmealotalongthewaybecauseifsomeonemakesamistake,anyoneIdealwithmakesamistake,they'reveryhonestaboutit,weaddressit,andwemoveonfromit.Yeah,Ithinkthat'sbeenoneofthemajorblessingsIguessI'velearnedovertheyears,andthatanyonewho'snothonest,Icutbusinesstieswiththemveryquickly.Yeah,I'mjusttryingtothink.IntermsofothergoodthingsthatI'vedonealongtheway,IguessIhaveanappreciationforreturnoninvestmentinaverystrongnumbersbackground.That'shelpedalotaswellinassessingthingsinabusinesssense.

Jesse: Yeah,okay,cool.Icertainlyshareyourloveofnumberswithyou,buttheotherthingIthinkIsharewithyouaswell,andwe'vespokenaboutthisinpreviousconversations,washowsystemizedyourbusinessisandyoutakeasystematicapproachwithalotofthingsthatyoudo.I'mjustwonderingifyou'dbehappytoshareabitofinsightaroundthelevelofsystemizationthatyouhaveandhowyouwentaboutdoingthat.

Nauv: IthinkthemainthingsthatIhavesystemizedistheprocessofopening,theprocessofstartingup.IrecentlyranaseminarinGoldCoast,andoneofthekeyfeedbackthingsIgotfromparticipantsishowIdeliveredarecipe,almostahow-toorachecklistofhowtotransitionintoownership.Thebigthingwasitwasareallyeasy-to-followrecipe,andIthinkI'vesystemizedthatovertheyears.We'vegotpeoplethatmakeourinitialstockandequipmentorder.We'vegotpeoplethatlookatourmarketingandgetourmarketinguptodate.Everythinginthestartupprocesshasbeensystemizedtoapointwheremytimeandinvestmentinthatisvery,verylittle,andthat'stheimportantthingaboutsystems.

Iguesswithexperienceandhavingdonequiteafewnow,youcanrefinethestepsinthesystemizedprocessthatarenotasefficientastheycouldbeornotgettingtheidealresultsastheycouldbe.Youworktorefinethatovertime,butIthinkifyougointoitwithaviewofhavingasysteminplace,nomatterwhatitis,itcouldbe...Let'sjustsayyou'regroceryshopping.Ifyouhaveasysteminplacethatyou'regoingtodothis,this,andthis,youcandothingsalotmoreefficientlyandsavealotoftime.Itappliestoeverythinginlife,Ithink,andsothat'sbeenabitplusforthewaythatwe'vedonethings.

Jesse: Yeah.Fantastic.Intermsoftheday-to-dayoperationsofyourpracticesoncethey'reupandestablished,again,howimportanthavethesystemsbeeninthataswell?



Nauv: Yeah,intheday-to-dayrunningofthepractices,admittedly,mysystemsarestillaworkinprogress.From2008,frommyfirstpracticetothepointwe'reatnow,webasicallyhavegrown11practices.Alotofefforthasgoneintothat,alotofthinkinghasgoneintothat,andnowI'mtakingastepbackfromthegrowthprocessintermsofexpansiontofocusingontheinternalsystemswithinthepractice.Thosehaveevolvedthemselvesfromthebackofmypracticemanagersandtheirknowledge,butnow,we'regetting,obviously,professionalslikeyouinvolvedwhoaremuchbetteratthatkindofthing.Beingupfront,it'snotastrengthofmine,sothat'ssomethingthatI'mmorethanhappytogetoutsidehelpin.

Jesse: Well,it'sbasicallyyourpointearlieraboutplayingtoyourstrengths,really,doesn'tit?

Nauv: Definitely.Yeah.

Jesse: Cool.Asyou'vegonethroughthiswholeprocess,Nauv...Again,forthosepeoplelistening,therewouldhavebeenacoupleofkeylessonswhichobviously,we'vecoveredoffthere.Isthereanythingelse,anyotherinsights,anyotherawarenesses,anyotherkeyaha'sorpenniesdropping?Ican'tthinkofanyothermetaphorstorolloffmytongueanyfasterthanthat,butisthereanythingelsethatyouthinkthatanaspiringpracticeownershouldreallythinkaboutasthey'recontemplatingtheirjourney?

Nauv: Yeah.IthinkonestorythatIthinkIwanttoshareisasituationthatIwasin.WhenIhadmyfirstpractice,Iboughtthefirstpractice.Itwasasmall,one-chairpractice.Yeah,wegottothepointwherewegotquitebusyabout9monthsafterIboughtit.Ithadreacheditscapacity,sowereallyneededtoaddasecondchair,butformeatthetime,asecondchairwasgoingtoberoughlya$50,000investment.Backthen,I'vespentaround$280,000buyingmypractice,and$50,000more,thatwasalotofmoney.

$50,000isalotofmoneyanytime,butitwasamassiveamountofmoney.Forme,otherthantheinitialinvestment,Iwasalsogoingtohireanotherdentalassistant,Iwasgoingtohireanotherdentist.ThedentistthatIwaslookingatatthetimewasrecommendedbyafriend,andshehadaprettybusypublicjob,andshewaswantingtogetintoprivatepractice.Forme,itwaslike,"Youknow,ifIputthissecondchairin,isshegoingtobebusy?AmIgoingtowastemy$50,000?"Therewasalotofsleeplessnightsthat.

Onenight,Iwasatdinnerataveryclosefriend'shousewhosedadowns...Well,justrecentlysoldthethirdbiggestbatterycompanyinAustralia.Thisguyisverywell-versedinbusiness.Hesaidtome,"Oh,Nauv,youlookabitconcerned.There'ssomethingonyourmind.You'renotyourusualchirpyself."Isaidtohimthat...IexplainedthesituationasIjusthaveand,yeah,hesaidtome...It'ssoprofound.Itseemssosimple,butatthattime,itwasabiglessontome.Hesaid,"Nauv,howmuchdoyouchargewhenyoupullatoothout?"Iwaslike,"Oh,around$200orso."Hesaid,"$50,000.Leaserepayments,that's,what,about$500,$600amonth?"Isaid,"Yeah."Hesaid,"Pull3teethoutandyou'vepaidoffyourleaserepayments.Doyouthinkyou'regoingtodowell?"Obviously,that'sareallysimplifiedthingandthere'snoreturnoninvestmentlessoninthat.

There'salotmoretoit,butwhenhebrokeitdownlikethat,someoneinbusinesswhohadyearsofexperience,whentheybrokeitdowntothefactthatforgetaboutthe$50,000,thinkabouttherepaymentonthe$50,000,thinkabouthowmuchunitsoflabororhowmanyproductsyouhavetoselltobreakevenonthat,itjustbecamesuchaneasydecision.Weputthesecondchairinwithin3or4months.Itwasbookedoutandwe'rereadytoexpandagain.Ithinkthemassivelessonfromthatisthedifferencebetweenusasdentists



andbusinessownersgenerallyintheirabilitytothinkaboutproblems.Iurgepeoplethatarelookingatownershiptogetanideaofthingslikereturnoninvestment,togetanideaofjustlittlethingslikethisthatwillmakedecisionsthataresupposedtobedifficultorthatappeardifficultmuch,mucheasier.Ithinkthatwasveryprofoundforme,andItellthatstoryalot,actually.

Jesse: Yeah,it'sacrackingstory.Ireallylikeit,Nauv.Again,oneofthethingsthat'scomingupformeasI'mlisteningtoyouspeakorsharethatstorywithusisthedifference,inmyview,betweentraditionalpracticeownership,whichIthinkisreallyanowner-operatedmodel,versustruebusinessownership.They're2differentmodels.Onemaynotbenecessarilymorerightthantheother,but2verydifferentskillsetsinmymind.Doyouhaveanyviewsaround...Whatareyourthoughtsaroundtraditionalbusinessownershiportraditionalpracticeownershipversustruebusinessownership?Doyouhaveanycommentsaroundthat?

Nauv: Yeah,Ithinkformepersonally,I'mverypro,asyou'veprobablygathered,prothesecondthingwhichisthebusinessownershipmodel.Thetraditionalpracticeownershipmodelforastartupintoday'senvironment,especiallyinmostmajormetrocities,I'llmakethestatement,itwillbecontroversial,98%ofpeoplethattakethatapproachtoitwillfail.IcompletelybelievethatwitheverythingIhave.Theonesthatwillsucceed,the1%or2%thatwillsucceed,willprobablyhaveanestablishedbasealready,willbebringingthatintotheirstartup,andhavesomeextraordinaryskillsasadentist,soofferingveryniche-typeservices.They'llbetheonetosucceed.

Nowtraditionalpracticeownershipinvolvedverylittlemarketing.Itinvolvedperhapsoneassociate,butitinvolvedthedentistdoingthebulkofthedentistry,involvedopeninghoursof9:00'til4:00everyday,Fridaysoffplayinggolf,notevendreamingofbeingopenweekends,thatkindofthing.Ithinktherewasaplaceforthat.Therewasdefinitelyaplaceforthatbecausethat'showeverydentistwas,butifyoutrythatmodelwithverylittletonomarketing,relyingonwordofmouthasastartupinanyofthemetrocitiesinthisdayandage,it'sdefinitelynotgoingtoworkforyou.Myviewisobviouslyverystrong.It'squitepolarizing,but,yeah,that'showIthinkofit.

Jesse: Ihappentoshareaverysimilarview.Ihaveaviewthatintheyearstocome,thosepracticesthatsucceedaregoingtocombinereallywhatitmeanstobeagreathealthprofessionalandcombinethatwiththeverybestintermsofbusinessknowledgeandbusinessskillsandbusinessacumen.Inthepast,again,comingbacktoyourcommentabouttryingtohavethe9:00to4:00,MondaytoThursdaypracticeintoday'sworldinametroarea,thereasonitwassosuccessfulinthepastorabletobesuccessfulinthepastwaspurelybecausetherewasanunder-supplyofdentists.

Nauv: Yes.

Jesse: Asthingshavetightenedup,andweallknowthesituationaroundthemarketatthemoment,really,thosedentiststhatdon'tchange,don'tgrow,don'tdeveloptheirbusinessthinking,theirbusinessskillsIthinkarereallygoingtosuffer.Yeah,Ithinkit'sincumbentoneveryonetolearnhowtobeabetterbusinessowner,notjustabetterowner/operator.

Nauv: No,definitely.Ijustwanttoclarifyonepoint,Jesse.The9:00to4:00thingthatImentionedorthe9:00to5:00,Ithinkthatalotofdentists,oncetheyestablishedthemselvesoronce



...Iwastalkinginrespectwithstartup,butthere'salotofestablisheddentistsouttherethathavehadafollowingfor10,15,20yearsthatcanaffordtoworkthosehours.Theirpatientswillmovehellandhighwatertocomeandseethemduringthosehours,andthey'refairlywell-bookedupworkingthosehours.Itcouldbejust2or3daysaweek,buttalkingmoreinthecontextofstartup,thatifyou'restartingup,tryingtogointoitwiththosehours,it'sgoingtobequitedifficultforyoutoestablishagoodpatientbase.Thatwasjustoneexample.

Jesse: Yeah,no,Iabsolutelyagree.Yeah.Now,Nauv,oneofthethingsthatpeoplewhodon'tknowyousowellorhaven'tseenmuchofyourstuffaroundthetraps,oreventhosewhohave,theymightnotrealizethatyou'reanextraordinarilygoodpokerplayer.Thisprobablyshouldn'tcomeasasurpriseaswe'relisteningtotheconversationwhenyouthinkaboutit,butIwaswondering,canyougiveusabitofaninsight?Tellusabitaboutyourpoker.Iknowyou'veplayedsometournamentsandIknowyou'vehadsomeastoundinglygoodwinsthere.Talkusthroughabitaboutthat.Howdidyougetintopoker?Whatwasitthatattractedyoutopoker?

Nauv: Ithinkpokercamefrombackintheunidays.Latenights,procrastinatinginsteadofstudying,switchingontheTVandwatchingpokergames,andIguessgettingaddictedtothestrategiesandthesuspenseandeverythingthatwasinvolvedwiththat.Iguessmyfirstthrowofthedicewithrealmoneywasonenightatacasino.ItwaswithabunchofmatesandIwenttothecasinoinBrisbaneTreasury.Ihad$100,which$100tomewasanastronomicalamountofmoneyasastudentandforus.Iwaswithsomefriendsandtheyeggedmeontohaveago.TheyknewIwasabitinterested.Weplayedalittle,afewfungamestogetherasfriends.Iwhackedthis$100downandIthought,"Oh,yeah,you'llgiveitago,"and3to4hourslater,withthefriendsontherailsbackingmeonandtherestofit,Iwalkedawaywith$1,100thatnight,which,if$100wasanastronomicalamountofmoney,youcanimaginehowmuch$1,100was.

Jesse: Yup.

Nauv: Thefunnythingwas,whenIgotbetteratpokerandgotmoreexperienceandstartedplayinginbiggertournaments,Ilookbackatmyplaythatnightandsomeofthekeyhandsthatcameup,andIrealizedjusthowbadIplayedthemandhowluckyI'dactuallygotten.Itwasagoodrealitycheck,butforme,Iguessthat'swhatspurrediton.Idon'tknow,ifIhadlostthatinitialtime,Idon'tknowifIeverwouldhaveplayedagain,butthatcertainlypeakedmyinterest.Justacontinuationfromthatstory,theverynextweek,Iwentandlostthatentire$1,000playingpoker,butIwashookedfromthatpointon.

Jesse: Yeah,gambleresponsibly,people,justforthesakeofthedisclaimer.Interesting,though,Nauv,becausewhatI'mreallyinterestedinisunderstandingtheparallelsbetweenpokerplayingandbusiness.I'msurethere'sgottobesomegoodlessonsinthere.Tellusabitabouttherelationshipofrisk.Tellmewhatyourthoughtsarearoundthat.

Nauv: Iguesswithpokerinmyvery,veryinitialdays,itwasstillwhileIwasatuni.Thatfirststorywasveryearlyoninuni,andthenitevolvesabit.IplayedalotofpokerthroughuniwhenIfirstgraduatedasadentistandI'vebeenplayingalotsince,butthekeythingwas,backthen,Ididn'tunderstandriskandIdidn'tunderstandrisktotheextentthatIneededto.Ilostalotofmoneyinitially,likealotofpeoplethatfirstgetintopokerdo.WhenIsayalot,alotinthecontextofmypersonalsituationatthetime,butIthinkIwasn'tunderstandingrisk.HereIwas,puttingalotofmoneyin.$100,likeIsaid,tomewasamassiveamountof



moneyatthatstage.That'sprobablyallthemoneyIhadinmywallet,anditwascompletelyirresponsibleofmetohavegambledthat$100thatnight.

Itturnedouttobegood,butIguesswithrisk,asanewpracticeownerorassomeonestartingoutinownership,Ithinkit'sreallyimportanttohaveagoodfinancialbackingandunderstandthatstartingapracticeisamassiverisk.Themorefinancial,Iguess,backingyouhaveunderyou,themoresavingsyouhave,thelessertheriskitbecomes.AsIsaidtoyou,betweenmyfirstandsecondpractices,therewasalmost3yearsofgap,andthatwasbecauseIwasestablishingareallysoundfinancialbasesuchthatoncethatwasestablishedandI'dhadmysecondpracticeandthecashflowwasthere,Icouldaffordtotakerisks.

Lastyear,westartedIthink4practicesintheoneyear.4practicesinoneyearisamassiverisk,butit'sacalculatedrisk.ItwasariskthatIfoundsomereallygoodareasandtheyjusthappentobeatthesametime.They'veallturnedoutreallywellandthingshavegonewell,buttakingthatriskwithoutcalculatingtherisksandwithoutunderstandingtheforcesorthedifferentdimensionsaroundthatriskcouldhavebeencatastrophic.Itpaidoff,butintheend,itwasstillarisk.

Jesse: WhatI'mhearingyousayisforthoseofuscontemplatingpracticeownership,besuretomakesureyou'renotbettingthehouseorbettingthefarminoneplay,sotospeak.

Nauv: Exactlyright.Exactlyright.

Jesse: Don'tputyourwholelifeonthelineforthispractice.Ifthat'swhatyouneedtodotostartup,wouldyousuggestdelayingitforalittlewhile,no?

Nauv: Yeah.There'salotofstrategies.Delaying,consideringapartnership...

Jesse: Partnership,yeah.

Nauv: Yeah,there'sfinancingagreaterportionofit,gettingoutsideinvestors.Just,there'salotofdifferentthingsyoucandotoensurethatevenifthepracticedoesn'tturnoutwellthatyourpersonalliferemainsstrong.

Jesse: Yeah,soyou'reminimizingyourexposure.

Nauv: Yes.Exactlyright,yeah.

Jesse: Cool.Whenyou'replayingahandofpoker,anditis,asyouindicated,thegameofunknowns,youdon'tknowwhateveryoneelsehasgot,whatfiltersdoyouhaveinplaceforthinking,"Okay,I'mgoingtoplaythishandornot"?What'sthedecision-makingprocessthatyougothrough?

Nauv: Ithinkit'sactuallyareallyinterestingquestion.IwasthinkingaboutthistheotherdayintermsoftheparallelsbetweenpokerandbusinessIguessgenerally.Whenyou'replayingahand,pokerisknownasagameofunknowns,soincompleteinformation.IknowthehandIhave.Idon'tknowthehandofanyoneelseatthetable.Iknowthecardsthedealersplacedinfrontofusall.They'recalledthecommunitycards.TheonlyinformationIhaveaboutaparticularplayer'shandsishowtheyactonthosehands,soanyphysicalmannerismsthatthatplayermaydisplaywhenthey'vegotastronghand,stuffIcommittomemory.



Alotoftimes,aplayerplaysahandacertainway,goestowhatwecallashowdownsointheendtheplayersremaininginthepotrevealtheirhands.Thatallowsyoutoseewhatthey'vegot,butwhatyoutrytocommittomemoryisthewaytheyplayedtheirhand,theirbettingcharacteristics,howmuchtheybet,howquicklytheybet,anyphysicalcharacteristics,sotheirbreathingincrease,allthatkindofthing.Combiningallthatandcommittingittomemory,thenexttimeyouplayahandagainstthatplayer,especiallyifthey'renotahighlyskilledplayer,yougetanideaofashortenedrange.Althoughyoumightnotknowtheirspecifichand,yougetanideaofthestrengthoftheirhandandyoucanmakeyourbetsaccordingly.

Ithinktheparalleltothatinbusinessissimplythatbusinessisalsoagameofincompleteinformation.Youdon'tknowhowthefutureisgoingtogo.Youdon'tknowhowaparticularmarketingthingisgoingtogoforyou.Youknowbasicallythatyou'reinterestedinmarketingacertainway,butyoudon'tknowtheresultofthatmarketing.Byresearchingandfindingoutaboutdifferentaspectsofthatmarketingventurethatyouwanttoembarkon,yougetagoodideaofhowit'sgoingtorespond,soeveniftheworst-casescenariocomesabout,inanythinginbusiness,youhaveagoodgraspofitandyoucancontrolitalotmore.

Ithinkthebiglessonisresearchtheinformation.Themorethatyou'vegot,Iguessthelesscatastrophictheunknownsbecome.Forme,ifI'vegottenaplayerinpokerwhereit'squitealargepotandI'vedeterminedthattheplayerdoesn'thavethebesthand,thenthere's2waysIcanwinthat.Icanwinthatpotfrombettinghighandhimfolding,butifIknowthatI'vegotabetterhandthanhim,thenIwanthimtocommitmoremoneytothepot.BecauseoftheinformationthatI'vegainedthroughprevioushandsandthewaythatthatplayerhasplayedthathand,itcanreallyallowmetocontrolthesituationalotbetter.Ithinkinbusiness,it'simportantthatyouhavecontrolofanysituationthatyou'reinandit'snotjustlefttochance.

Jesse: Interestinglyaroundthis,Nauv,that'sfascinatingbecauseitissuchastudyofthehumanconditionandpsychology,andnotjustthepsychologybutthephysiologyofitandallthosethingsthatgowithit,buthaveyoufoundthose...I'mjustcurioustoknow.Arandomquestion.Haveyoufoundthosepokerskillstranslatinginanyway,forinstance,negotiatingleasesoranythinglikethat?

Nauv: Yeah,definitely.IhavealotoffriendsthatIhelp,friendsandcolleaguesthatIhelparoundnegotiating.Thethingaboutnegotiatingisyouhearthetermusedallthetimeinnormallifeandbusiness.It's,"Justcallhisbluff."Alotofthetime,whenI'mnegotiatingwithapotentiallandlord,Ithinkbacktopoker.I'vegainedawealthofknowledgefrommypokerplayingdaysandapplyingthattobusiness,andknowing,basedontheactionsthatthey'vedone,whetherthey'reseriousaboutacertainoffer,whetherthey'vereachedtheirlimit,orwhetheryou'vegotmoreroomtonegotiate,allthatkindofthing.Ithinkplayingpokerreallyallowsyoutogetconditionedintheprocessofnegotiation.There'salotoftimesinbusinesswherenegotiationshappen,soIthinkit'shelpedalot.Dealingwithstaff,dealingwithotherpeoplethatyoudobusinesswith,andeverything.Yeah,it'sbeenquitegoodinthatwayaswell,Ithink.

Jesse: Fantastic.Remindmenottogetintotoomanynegotiationswithyou,mate.AnotherquestionIhaveforyourelatingtopokeris,you'vegotyourhandthere,andyou'veusedallofyourbestintelligence,you'vetriedtounderstandwhattheotherplayersaredoing,andsurely,theremustcomeatimethoughwhenyou'vegottotakethatleapoffaith.You've



gottotakeachanceineitherrevealyourcardsorfoldorwhateverithappenstobe.What'syourthoughtsabouttakingachance,steppingintotheunknown?

Nauv: Ithinkformepersonally,I'vegotapersonalitythat'squitehappytotakeonrisks,especiallyifI'vecalculatedtheworstcaseandI'mhappywiththeworstcase.WhatImeanbythatisIwon'tgetintoasituationwhereI'lltakeariskonsomethingwhereIfeelthereturnisnotgoingtobesomethingthatmakesmeveryhappyorwherethelossisgoingtobesomethingthatmakesmealarminglyunhappy.Fromthatpointofview,pokerhashelped.

Gettingbacktothehand-specificsituationthatyoutalkedabout,theotherimportantthingaroundthatthoughis,inpoker,likeinlife,youcanplayahandperfectly.Attheendoftheday,asIgotmoreexperiencedwithpoker,Iusedtoconcentratealotonresults.Iusedtothink,"Okay,thatday,Ilostalotofmoney,soImusthaveplayedreallybadly,"whereasbecauseoftheluckelementinpoker,youcanhaveasituationwhereyouplayperfectpokerallday,youmakealltheperfectdecisions,youreadplayerswell,butthehandsandthecardsjustdon'tfallyourway.

TheproblemthatIfindwithpeopleinlifeisthatyoucouldworkhardataparticularjobandyoumightnotgetthatpromotion,forargument'ssake,andtheyreadtoomuchintothat,sotheystarttothinkthat,"Oh,I'mafailure.Ididn'tdothingsproperly,"andthey'retryingtolearnalessonwherethere'snolessontobelearned.TheimportantthingwithpokerasIgotmoreexperiencedwasrealizingthatIwasn't...MywifeandIusedtogoandstayathotelsIusedtocomeback,andthefirstquestionshewouldaskmeis,"Howdidyougo?"MyanswerintheearlydaysofplayingpokerwashowIwentfinancially,ifI'dlostmoney,howIwent,butasI'vegotmoreexperienced,theanswerbecamemoreabouthowIplayed,sothemoneywasinconsequential.Icouldhavelostalotofmoneyandplayedperfectpoker,butIwasmorehappywithmyselfbecauseIplayedperfectpoker.

Inpoker,theysaythere'sa30%skillelementandthere'sa70%luckelement.Inlife,there'samuch,muchsmallerluckelement,butthethingaboutluckisifIplaythebestpokerIpossiblycan,everyone'sluckinthelongrunwillequalout.It'stheskillelementthatwilldifferentiateus.Inlife,asIsaid,there'sevenasmallerluckelement,soaslongasyoukeepdoingthingstherightway,aslongasinbusinessyoukeepmakingthecorrectdecisions,andjustbecausetheydon'tturnoutwellforyouthistimearound,itdoesn'tmeanthattheywon't.Alotofthetime,whenthingsdon'tgowell,peopletrytolearnalessonwhenthere'snolessontobelearned.Ifyouthinkyou'vedonetherightthingandyoucananalyzethingsandassessthatyouhaveandthingshaven'tgoneyourway,well,youcanputthatdowntoabitofunluckinessinthatparticularsituationinsteadoflearningalessonthat'snotmeanttobelearned.Ithinkthat'simportant.

Jesse: Yeah.Well,that'sareallygoodpoint.Inspiteofpreviousconversationsthatwe'vehadaroundluck,Ithinkweareonthesamepage.IjustalsohaveaviewthattheharderIwork,theluckierIget.IguessoneofthecommentsthatIwouldmakeaboutluckjustonthat,andIthinkyou'vereallycovereditanyway,isdoingtherightconsistentlyandputtinginthework.OneofthethingsIfindwhenitcomestoluckispeoplewillblamebadluckwhenreally,itcouldhavebeenlackofpreparation,lackoftraining,lackofwhateverithappenstobe.WhileIknowthatyouattributeaportionofyoursuccesstohavingthecardsfalltherightway,Ialsofindthattherearesomepeoplewhoattributetheirpoorresultstofactorsbeyondtheircontrolwhentherealityis,inmyview,therewereplentyofthingsthattheycouldhavedonetoimprovetheiroddsofwinning.



Itgoesbothways,ofcourse.We'reprobablysingingfromthesamesongsheetthere,mate.WhatI'dreallylovejusttounderstand,justaswewrapuptheconversationaroundpoker,istheconceptofwhenyouplaypoker,yougetdealtacertainsetofcards,ahand,andobviously,thosearethecardsthatyouplaywith,andsameinlife.Weallgetdealtacertainhandthatweplay.Doyouhaveanyviewaboutmakingthebestofwhatyou'vegot,findingtheenjoymentorfindingthegoodinwhatthereisalready?It'sperhapsalittlephilosophicalconversationperhaps,but...oreven,howdoyouchangethecardsifyoucaninlife?

Nauv: Ithinkmyviewmightbealittlemorecontrarytomostpeople.Justgoingbacktopoker,inpoker...

Jesse: It'scertainlynot,mate.

Nauv: ...Basically,thebestplayersortheplayersthatdothebestinpokeraretheplayersthatplaytheleasthands.WhatImeanbythatis,agooddayofpokerplaying,typically,youshouldbefoldingorgettingridofbetween80%and90%ofyourhand,soyoushouldonlybeplayingwith10%or20%ofyourhand.Ithinktheapplicationtothatinlifeandinopportunitiesis...Ihadalotofpeoplethatcometome,and2monthsago,theymadethedecisionthattheywantedtolookintopracticeownership,andallofasudden,they'vegotapracticetobuyandit'stheonetheirheartisseton.It'stheveryfirstpracticetheylookedat,andthere'snothinggoodaboutthatpracticeotherthanthefactthattheythinkthatthere'snootherpracticesoutthereandthisistheoneforthem.Ithinkinpoker,themostsuccessfulplayersareonlyplayingwith10%to20%ofthehandsthattheyhave,whereas...

Yeah,Ithinkinbusiness,there'salotofopportunitiesthatwalkthroughthedoor.Youget20repswhoseeyouinayear'stimetryingtoselltheirproducts.Thereshouldonlybeaverysmallpercentageofproductsthatyouactuallybuy.Thesamewayasanewpracticeowner.Youmighthave10,20differentlocationscomeatyou,butit'saboutbeingpatientandaboutstickingtowhatyouknow,stickingtoIguessasetofprinciplesthatwillguidehowyoulookatdifferentopportunities.

Forexample,inmytalksontheweekend,Iwentthroughlocationselectionandgavetheattendeesanideaofwhatmakesaperfectlocation.Iftheyfollowthat,I'mconvincedthattheyhavehalfthebattlewoninrespecttochoosingalocation,buttheissuefollowingthatisthere'sgoingtobemanylocationsthatcomeatthemthatthey'regoingtohavetojustrefuseandjustsay,"No,that'snotgood.That'snotagoodlocation.MypracticeisgoingtobeonthebackfootfromdayoneifIstartinthatarea."Ithink,yeah,pokerandlifehavealotofparallels,andthat'syetanotherone,Ithink.

Jesse: Yeah,that'safantasticstory.IfIcanjustbuildonitforamoment,oneofmyveryearliestbusinessmentorsbackwhenIwasinmy20searly,earlyon,heusedtosaytome,"Jesse,theopportunityalotofthetimecomesalongaboutonceaweek,andyou'regoingtoneedtolearntosaynotothethings."Thisisacommentthat,again,we'vediscussedontheforuminanabstractwaylastnight,butit'saboutdesigningalifewhereyouhavesomefilterswheremostofthestuffthatcomesacrossyourdesk,you'regoingtohavetorefuse.Itseemstome,that'sthesamewaywithpokeraswell,isyou'regoingtocarefullyselectthehands,you'regoingtopickyourhandful,andthenplaythem,andleavetherest.Ireallythinkthatoneoftheproblemsthatdentistshaveis,asarule,dentiststendto



bouncearoundlikepinballslookingfromoneopportunitytothenext,andIthinkthat'saproblem.

Nauv: Yeah,andit'saproblem.Inpoker,whenIgetimpatientandplayahandthatIshouldreallyletgoof,that'swhenproblemsarise.That'swhenIcanloseallmymoneyandthingslikethat.Ithinkthepracticalapplicationofthatisifyougetboredofwaiting,youstarttotakemorerisks,andalotofthoserisksareunnecessaryrisks,soit'sreallyimportantthatbeingpatientisalesson,Ithink.

Jesse: Whichisabeautifulsegueintocricket.Reallyrandom,Iknow,but,yeah,Iknowyou'reacricketfan,andIam,too.Iwasjustthinking,asyoudescribedthat,thatremindsmeofGlennMcGrathbowlingballafterballafterball,justshortofagoodlength,justoutsideoffthestump,andthebatsman,he'sboringthebatsmanintotakingarisk,right?

Nauv: Yes,exactlyright.

Jesse: It'sexactlythething.Thentheydosomethingrash,andallofasudden,they'recaughtintheslips,andbingo,he'sgothiswicket.Fromthebatsman'spointofview,it'saboutshotselection,andit'sthesamethinginpoker,thesamethinginbusiness.It'sallaboutwaitingfortherightopportunityandcapitalizingonitwhenitapproaches.

Nauv: Whenitdoescome.

Jesse: Yeah,andbeingpreparedforit,too.

Nauv: Yeah.EvenGlennMcGrath,asgoodashewas,ifyouwereapatientbatsman,he'sgoingtobowlabadball,butifyou...IguessthebeautyofGlennMcGrathwashehadthebatsmaninsuchadefensivemindsetthatitwerejustgunshy,sohewouldgetawaywiththeoddbadballbecausetheyjustweren'treadytocapitalizeontheopportunitythathepresentedwhenitcame.Iguesstheotherparallelfromthatistoensurethatalthoughyouhadarunofbadluck,allthesebadlocationshavecomeacrossyourdeskandnoneofthemarebeinggood,whentherightonecomesalong,makesureyou'reusingthesamefilterssothatyoucanactuallyseethatit'stherightopportunity.Yeah,Ithinkthere'salottoitwithallsports,Iguess,andbusiness.

Jesse: Fantastic.Listen,Nauv,Ijustwantedtosaythankyousomuchforcomingontheshowtonight.It'sbeenanabsolutepleasurehavingyouhere,mate,andsharingallyourlessons,allyourwisdom,andallyourinsightsoverthelasthowmanyyearsyou'vehadinthisbusinessandstartingthose11practices.There'ssomuchmorethatwecouldgointo,butwemightsavethatforanotherepisode.Again,mate,onbehalfofallthelistenersheretonight,thankyousomuchforbeingsogenerouswithyourtime.Ireallyappreciateit,mate.You'reagem.

Nauv: No,thanksalot,Jesse.I'vereallyenjoyedit.Thanksverymuch.

Jesse: Cool.Thanks,man.Bye.

ep 02 transcript - amazon s3...nauv: i guess within the context of business and ownership generally,...

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