Download - tfteO - dcr.lib.unc.edu
tfteO
Interview with
Keith Parrish and Martha T. Parrish
July 8, 1998
Benson, NC
Lu Ann Jones and Charlie Thompson
Listening for a Change:
North Carolina Communities in Transition
Southern Oral History Program
Interview number K-0230 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
2
000 Introduction to tape and participants in interview. LAJ
says she'll ask Charlie to take the lead. Let's begin with
Keith Parrish's farm background and how he decided to get
into farming.
009 KP born and raised about quarter mile down road, next house
on left. His father and grandfather were farmers and his
mother's parents were farmers and their parents were
farmers. "As many generations back as I can trace, we were
all farmers." When he graduated from high school and NC
State University, he didn't think he was going to be a
farmer, didn't intend to farm. That was furtherest thing
from his mind after growing up on farm. Had opportunity to
open a NAPA parts business with a neighbor in Coats when he
graduated from college. They ran business for three or four
years and he couldn't stand being inside and shut up, plus
building a business from scratch hard work.
020 He and partner sold NAPA business and his father
receptive to idea of him farming. His older brother farming
with father at time and younger brother joined farm, too.
Father retired in 1975. In a year or so, younger brother
decided farming not for him; quit and took job with NCSU
Extension Service. Older brother and Keith farmed together
until 1982, when times were tight and tough and difficult
for both to stay in. He's only Parrish still farming. His
father had seven brothers and sisters. "I'm the last
Interview number K-0230 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
3
Parrish to farm, I guess, unless one of my sons decides to
come back."
034 Sons: Kevin is 23 and Jason is 18. Kevin graduated
from East Carolina University and got job with construction
company in Greensboro. Jason is going to UNC-Wilmington.
He thinks if things had been better with farming and tobacco
program, Kevin might have come back to farm. But when Kevin
asked Keith if he could pay him what he'd been offered, he
said he could not and "didn't have that much to offer him,
so far as security. Which is a shame, for the security not
to be there anymore."
041 That's why he's staying so involved with policies of
tobacco, trying to get stability. Now it's an "uneasy time"
for tobacco farmers in NC.
048 During the season, what's typical day? Is Keith
directly involved in the work?
049 "We work from can't see to can't see, I think is about
the best way to put it." His day usually starts about 6
a.m. and usually lasts until 6:30 or so at night. Crew he
has now, the H2A workers, like to make 11 or 12 hours a day
six days a week if they can, so they try to do that. Keith
doesn't do as much as he used to; he trusts H2A workers
better than some of the help he's had in the past. He also
has a couple of guys who have been with him for years who
take a lot of the load off. He suffers from rheumatoid
arthritis, so it's not easy for him to get out and do manual
work he used to do.
Interview number K-0230 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
4
060 "I enjoy this life better than anything else; don't
think there's any other way to raise family other than
farming as being ideal for a kid to be raised up in." Older
son discovered that growing up on farm was an asset when he
applied for job because he had grown up with strong work
ethic and running machinery. Employer told him that was why
he won out over other job candidates. "That made me kind of
proud, to know at least you're getting something out of this
country living and farm orientation."
072 Parrish sons' friends have helped them on farm. But
now school calendar doesn't lend itself to hiring school
kids. He thinks their working on farm taught
responsibility, respect for work. "I know that it's a good
way to raise a family, and I hate to see that gone and I
hate to see anything put that in jeopardy."
078 When did he start getting involved in national
organizations and what motivated him?
080 National organization got started in March. Parrish
was a Phillip Morris Leadership participant. In 1985,
Phillip Morris came out with program that they would send
some of their farm group folks to different training during
winter months when not that busy farming. He signed up and
was chosen for first class. He went to Brazil, Washington,
to Richmond to their plant, to NC State for training. Three
or four sessions each winter. NC State offered public
speaking courses and other leadership courses.
Interview number K-0230 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
5
090 "We learned there was more to things than our own
little neighborhood and that farming was actually a
worldwide business, it wasn't just a local thing." He
thinks these classes inspired participants to be more
involved. President of each state's Tobacco Growers'
Association has been through the Phillip Morris course.
It's an alumni group that meets during winter for weekend.
098 Last winter decided to start a national association.
Five flue-cured states and one burley state, Indiana. He's
been involved with state Tobacco Growers' Association since
its inception, about 15 years ago. He was elected to board
10-12 years ago, and after holding various jobs elected
president in 1994. 1994 was a year when had a "very serious
confrontation going on" between amount of tobacco in pool
and facing large cuts. He went back and forth to
Washington; he figured he was gone from home about 150 days
that year, lobbying in Raleigh and Washington.
112 In 1994, the players in the confrontation: the
manufacturers and growers and Congress, Jesse Helms and
others who were trying to put the players together. The
problem was that over years, growers had built up a lot of
tobacco in stabilization stock—or pool—and that meant they
would face a huge cut in quota, which means that rent rates
would go up, "very similar to what we may be facing now."
Met in Washington and trying to come to agreement with
manufacturers so they would buy out the stocks and prevent
Interview number K-0230 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
6
growers from having a huge cut. And eventually that's what
happened after lots of negotiating.
Was he on side of manufacturers? "No, we were on the
side of the farmers. You're all in this together. Just
like it is now, with the issues that we're facing now—the
manufacturers like to call it a tobacco family, because
there's different aspects. You've got the grower, the
manufacturer, the leaf dealers, the warehouseman, and the
workers—so they call it the tobacco family. But it's kind
of a tightrope walking deal with you're talking about the
family, when you're talking about people's money and their
livelihood. What is good for one is not always good for
everybody, but sometimes is. We want actually the same
thing they want. The manufacturers want stability and we
do, too. We'd like to be able to survive whatever happens
out of this. We're still growing a legal crop, and it's
something we've always been proud of doing and doing a good
job at it. And there's really not anything else here that
we can do. We've tried other crops, and there's just not
anything that we can grow here that'll take the place of
tobacco. So we're hoping that we can reach some kind of an
agreement through Congress to compensate us for what we lost
and be able to continue to grow. It may not be as large a
scale as we have in the past. Who knows? It may be with a
program or without a program. There's so much uncertainty
out there right now. Everybody's just on edge and nobody
knows what the future holds and that's a very bad place to
Interview number K-0230 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
7
be. It's just like you're looking at a company that you're
working for who may be going to lay off folks someday and
you can see the handwriting on the wall, but you don't know
when that day is. So you just keep on going; you have to.
You don't have any choice. Even though it's a kind of bleak
outlook, you got to keep planting, you've got to keep going,
you got to keep trying to hang on."
143 Charlie Thompson notes there's "no unemployment."
Keith: "No, there's no unemployment for tobacco farmers."
Farmers between a rock and a hard place. He thinks
manufacturers hold the key. They can help farmers to
survive and buy enough tobacco that growers don't have a
cut, or they can buy the bare minimum that they have to buy
and growers may wind up losing a lot of farmers this fall."
149 Charlie asks if, after visiting tobacco growers abroad,
does Keith have the sense that companies really need the
American tobacco farmer in this part of country? No matter
what, will tobacco be grown here?
154 Keith thinks tobacco will be grown here, but amount is
in question. Manufacturers can use Brazilian and Zimbabwe
type tobacco but they need a certain amount of American
tobacco because of its particular qualities and chemistry.
US also a stable place for manufacturers to buy tobacco;
government program has always guaranteed supply of tobacco.
"They're not looking at a government overthrow that's going
to lose everything they've got invested in a foreign
country." He thinks tobacco will be grown in US.
Interview number K-0230 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
8
169 Charlie: Anything special about this land near Coats
and Bailey's Crossroads that creates reason for tobacco
being here and makes it special?
170 Keith: sandy soils that tobacco likes; climate usually
gets good rains. Tobacco began when people leaving behind
Granville wilt. He doesn't think that's the case with his
family. Tobacco crop unique to NC and east coast because
that's where it got started and not able to adapt further
west; mountains kind of a barrier to tobacco. Burley
tobacco grown in mountains is different from flue-cured.
189 Charlie would like to hear a tobacco farmer describe
flue-cured tobacco.
191 Flue-cured tobacco cured with flues. When he was in
Brazil in 1985, still fired barns with wood. Flues are
metal pipes that run from furnace at each end of barn into
barn to take heat into barn; started with old flue-type
barns and curing with wood. One old barn left on grounds;
log barn and can see hole where flue used to be. When this
type of curing, grew a lot less tobacco. More small
farmers, "but the reason they were smaller is they couldn't
hold out enough to go through all the labor to do it. One
reason they had large families to help them to grow the
crops. They would share back and forth between the
communities."
206 Keith says log barn over 100 years old. Granddaddy
Denning probably built it. Use for storage now. Don't see
many of these barns left.
Interview number K-0230 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
9
213 Bulk barns began to replace flue barns in late 1960s.
Before, interim stage, used oil heat in flue barns; heat
radiated from oil heater. Then to gas burner, which was
more efficient and put out quicker heat. Then to bulk
barns.
222 Labor changed with tobacco barns. Initially started
hand looping the tobacco, just as they do now in Brazil.
Like rolling back the clock when go to Brazil. From hand-
looping and hanging on sticks in barn to something like
sewing machine to string tobacco on sticks; "that saved a
lot of time and labor." Graduated from that point to riding
harvesters, so people would loop while they were riding.
Eventually went to mechanical harvesting and bulk barns.
Bulk barns haven't changed too much. Experiment with small
boxes and big boxes, but basically hasn't changed since late
1960s and early 1970s. Most are gas-fired with big fans
that force heat through them. Can put as much tobacco
in one bulk barn now as used to put in two stick barns. "It
helped people to start getting bigger and families started
getting smaller and people started increasing their
allotment and their acreage." Flue-cured different from
burley, which still supports smaller farmers, "Saturday
farms." Use tobacco as secondary income. But in eastern
NC, tobacco "is our primary income, our primary way of life
and that's what keeps us going and pays the bills, is the
tobacco. So you have to get more and more to be able to
survive, and you're able to do that through mechanization."
Interview number K-0230 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
10
250 LAJ asks about different sources and systems of labor,
which he had mentioned before formal interview began. Could
he take us from time he was a kid and describe who was doing
the work in the field?
255 When he was a kid and just before, the way his father
describes it, "it was basically families trading work, back
and forth. They hired very little labor from outside."
Most of farm people depended on themselves and neighbors and
traded work to put in the few acres they had.
By time he was coming along, farmers were starting to
get bigger but not as mechanized as today. His family was a
30-acre farmer, which was fairly big, when he was growing
up. Had about 30 stick barns that they owned or rented from
other farmers. That was a lot of work, just to look after
barns.
When go from five or six acres and hand labor, "you had
to start seeking labor elsewhere, so folks would either get
it in local towns—Dunn or Coats or wherever they could find
any local labor—and if it was not available there, Dad went
as far as Fayetteville and would have a little small house,
tenant house, somewhere on the farm that we would put some
guys in. Get four or five guys and bring them back on
Sunday afternoon and they'd work all week long and take them
back on Friday afternoon."
273 Charlie: What kind of guys were those?
274 "Most of them were black folks that we would pick up
down there. They were not that dependable, either. A lot
Interview number K-0230 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
11
of them would be folks that didn't have a job anywhere else
and they kind of made out the best way they could until
summer got here, knowing that farmers would come and pick
them up and work them. I remember having a lot of trouble
sometime with some of the help here. They'd be used to
drinking Thunderbird wine in Fayetteville, and bring them up
here and they'd get hold of some of these guys around would
supply them with some white liquor or whatever, and we'd
have one or two cutting and fighting, back and forth, and it
was not very pleasant to be around some of those guys. I
heard some of my first cuss words out in the tobacco patch
with these guys, because they didn't much care who was
there, who listened, who didn't, whatever."
284 LAJ: Was there a particular place in Fayetteville
where people would go to look for people to hire?
285 "I think Dad just knew where he was supposed to go.
There was certain street corners or whatever where he would
find them. Once he ever picked them up the first time then
he would know which house to go to and everybody would be
there waiting. It was not the best places in the world and
it wasn't the best side of town, I remember that much. Dad
used to always gun his muffler so that his truck would sound
different than anybody else's and he would go through town
and blow the horn and race the engine and they would know it
was him that was coming. I remember them telling me about
'hearing you coming two blocks away. We were getting
ready.' We used a lot of that type help for a long time.
Interview number K-0230 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
12
295 When he and brothers started farming together, crew
leaders had started becoming part of labor picture. "One
lady in particular would bring them up on a bus and go over
to Crossroads and pick up five or six
people to help you." Labor would be coming from
Fayetteville. Crew leader would bring workers up every day.
They weren't very good help, either.
300 Influx of Mexicans began in mid-1970s and early 1980s.
"And they were so much better than the local help that we'd
been having because they were very dependable and they
really wanted to work."
304 Charlie: first Mexicans were migrants?
305 Yes. Keith speculates that many in US illegally. "But
they were just coming through and working for crew leaders,
but they would be the true migrants." Used those folks for
a lot time, through a crew leader down the road. "She would
always bring enough help that we could go pick up some folks
from her to use." Crew leader was Mexican.
315 "Then they came with—the H2A program is not that old.
I can't remember now what year it got started. This is my
first year with them. I went through a time of trying to
use local help in betwixt, in between, because even the
migrant help that you got became more demanding and more
independent than they were at one time because they new they
were better help than the folks we'd been using locally. So
they'd hit you at a point where you'd be vulnerable, near
the end of the season or whatever, and say, okay, you're
Interview number K-0230 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
13
putting too much tobacco in your barns and it's taking too
long and if you don't pay us more or there's some suckers in
this field, if you don't pay us more, we're going to quite.
And a farmer's in a desperate situation when it's like that
and it doesn't take many of those threats and many of those
things to happen for you to look another way. A lot of
farmers went to mechanization through primers, but it's just
not as good a quality tobacco and it does not do as good a
job in some years, most years, and it does to do it by hand.
So there's been a lot of changes that have gone through this
labor situation. It's like one of our other neighbors told
me the other day, he said, 'I'll quit before I go back to
any other way, before I'll use any other help than H2As.
The headaches are just not there anymore because theses
folks are here to work and get money to send back home to
their families. They're not here to play around, and they
can't threaten you. 'If the wind blows your tobacco over,
we're going to quit.' They can't do that; they don't have
anywhere to go other than help you or go back to Mexico."
338 If H2A workers dissatisfied with him, they can go to
another farmer and contract with him under no penalty.
There would have to be a good reason to break contract.
"These folks are good guys and they seem to be the type of
people who want to help and want to—they see what you're
trying to do, which is make a living, and they try to help
you do that. They're eager to try to help, and that's
Interview number K-0230 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
14
something a little unusual if you've never worked them
before. Times have definitely changed over the years."
355 Keith's father still alive. LAJ asks how far back
farmers in family?
360 At least three generations. His parents have Winnebago
and travel quite a bit now; at Jordan Lake now.
366 Charlie asks what Keith hopes will happen with tobacco
program. What is he working toward? Charlie: "Obviously
you have hope or you wouldn't be involved politically. In
your ideal scenario, what would this community look like?
Can it support a number of farmers and or they going to get
fewer and far between? What will it look like, ideally?"
370 Keith: "Ideally, it won't change won't change that
much. You're talking ideally, you hope the tobacco demand
would still be there and to be able to continue pretty much
as you are now with basically the same number of farmers you
have now. But realistically, I think we all have to face
the fact that it's just not going to happen. I don't see
that that can continue with the attitude of folks in
Washington, DC, toward the tobacco farmers themselves and
towards the manufacturers in particularly. I don't think
they have that much against us, but just the manufacturers
and that kind of trickles down to us, is far from being a
good relationship right now." Congressmen, senators, health
group folks, America right now doesn't trust manufacturers
that much now. And that makes it bad for farmers who are
trying to sell the product to manufacturers, because they're
Interview number K-0230 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
15
unstable. And as long as their livelihood, business-wise,
toward their stockholders is unstable, farmers' livelihood
will be unstable, too. What Keith is trying to do is "to
make sure that farmers come out of this thing as unscathed
as possible." There will be some farmers, through
attrition, who will not continue to farm, no matter what.
Some will quit if get money through government buy-out, so
that will be that much more tobacco that other farmers can
grow.
400 "I see that it will probably be more consolidated than
it is now and fewer small farms than there are now."
Doesn't know how many farmers there are now. Median age of
farmers now is 56, so close to retirement. Also a lot of
younger farmers who are in debt as got started and tried to
get bigger and get enough tobacco to make a living, and
those people have got to service those debts. Everytime
there is cut in quota, the rent for tobacco allotment goes
up. Banker wants farmers to have certain number of pounds
of tobacco "to cash flow" and to service debt. A lot of
farmers now aren't telling bankers what they're paying for
rent, "so they're just buying time, waiting for this
government settlement." He fears that that strategy is
going to catch up with them.
430 People who rent out their tobacco allotments are often
older farmers who use rent to supplement incomes. A lot of
farmers know how many pounds of tobacco they have to tend to
service their debt load and to cash flow, so they pay
Interview number K-0230 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
16
whatever it takes because quota cut. So great competition
to rent tobacco land and that increases price for rent.
Each cut in quota means there's more farmers in competition
for those limited pounds, which drives the price of rent up.
467 Parrish says that kind of competition is happening in
his area, but speculates that's worse to the east, around
Wilson and Rocky Mount, where rent per pound is 60 and 65
cents whereas in his area it's 45 cents. Average 2200-2400
pounds per acre times 45 cents a pound, equals rent per
acre. Over $1,000 an acre, "and that's a lot of money just
for the privilege of growing tobacco." So there are a lot
of people who say do away with tobacco program, get payment
through settlement, and then grow tobacco and sell on world
market and take chance and not pay such high rent. "And the
bigger the farmers probably the more than attitude exists."
Can't borrow money on crop note anymore; have to put up a
farm or put up something that's been in your family for a
long time.
502 Martha T. Parrish comes in.
513 LAJ wonders if farmers will just sell land and develop
for housing. Would that be realistic here? Or what would
be a realistic safety net?
521 Keith: "There's already a lot of farms around here
that are growing houses now that used to be growing
tobacco." Just up road he used to tend field where houses
are now. That's probably about only people around there
could do. But supply and demand: if everybody's farm loses
Interview number K-0230 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
17
value as farm and is put on market, value will be low.
Right now, if farm comes up for sale usually a farmer can't
put it; usually a Realtor buys it because they can pay more.
540 Martha: a Realtor told her this morning that one acre
of property given to them was worth $15,000 or more now
because of its location. Purchaser would probably live in
Harnett County and work in Raleigh.
555 No other crop than tobacco can sustain a family in this
part of NC. If farmers switched to growing tobacco, people
in Florida and California can produce so much quicker than
NC farmers can, then market flooded by time they harvest.
"If everybody whose growing tobacco starts growing
vegetables, you can't give it away. We've tried different
things here. We've tried sweet potatoes and pickles and
just about anything you can name. Even some off the wall
stuff—primrose, for example, that we got into trying to
grow something else—and it's just not there. You just
can't do it. For various reasons, it's just not feasible to
try to do that. So tobacco is the only thing that keeps
farms viable here in Harnett County and Johnston County and
this entire area through here. It's the only thing that
makes a farmer farm." Grow wheat and barley on the side;
"tobacco's the key." Bumper stickers that say "Tobacco Pays
the Bills" is really true.
585 Martha: at a meeting at Hilton Head was told that
somewhere children not allowed to wear clothing or anything
that suggested tobacco.
Interview number K-0230 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
18
Keith: when they growing up, nearly all children
either from farm family or if families lived and worked in
mill in Erwin, they would work on tobacco farm in summer.
Not, not that many farm kids anymore. Now a small number of
farmers growing as much tobacco as entire community used to
grow. "Times have changed so drastically so quickly. So
it's already getting to be more condensed and more
mechanized and fewer people growing the same amount of crop.
And I think that trend will probably continue to a point, to
a degree. But it's hard to see how it could get much less,
farmer-wise, than it is now through this area."
[End Tape I, Side 1; begin Tape I, Side 2]
001 Charlie asks Keith to name farmers in community. Names
farmers down road. Bob Nordan, Gary Denning, himself, Sandy
Langdon, Danny Watkins, Ronnie Adams (sells fertilizer,
too). Stacy and Betty Johnson; Joey Johnson. About a dozen
farmers through there.
007 Charlie: Are there ways that you see each other to
talk?
008 Keith: "Not like we used to." No country stores that
used to be meeting places. Plus, farmers more independent
and each has own gas pumps at home; go to Wal-Mart and buy
Nabs and drinks and put them in own refrigerators to supply
for help; you run into one another up and down road and at
fertilizer place. People don't visit like used to. When he
Interview number K-0230 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
19
was kid, his parents would go to another farmer's house to
play Rook. Everybody's lifestyle has change; more mobile
than used to be.
017 Charlie: Does that relate to people trying to undercut
one another with rent?
018 Keith: Probably some. But also kids so busy and that
keeps parents busy. "Everybody's also wanting to go,
something they got to do." And that's different that it
used to be; children came home and farmed. Jason at Grange
Camp this week; last year he went to two camps.
037 Martha recalls 4-H camp fondly. LAJ remembers going to
4-H camps at Betsy-Jeff Penn 4-H camp, too, and still has
cutting board she made there. Martha remembers how
important it was to keep cabins clean because there was a
competition. Kitchen duty. Reminisce. Farmers' kids went.
070 Martha grew up about six miles away; grew up with Keith
and other farm kids. 4-H camps way to get away from farm
work. Her daddy always had something for children to do.
She had two brothers. Older brother could not harness horse
and when she was growing up they had mules and one little
tractor. Her family late getting tractor. Her brother
would beg her to harness that mule for him, "because if you
didn't have it ready by the time Daddy got back with help,
he would just be mad and upset because everything had to go
like clockwork." She was a little girl; she would have to
stand on milk stand to put harness on.
Interview number K-0230 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
20
081 Martha's family farm rented out now; none of family
farms. A piece of it has a couple of apartments on it,
rented out to Campbell College; her brother built those
apartments.
098 Charlie asks about church.
102 Keith: Church dependent on tobacco to make payments
and cash flow. "The church is now, might as well face it,
like a business." You've got pay preacher's salary; got to
keep up manse and pay bills. "It's just like a small
business, really, that you have to look after." Keith has
been an elder and deacon; and Martha a deacon now. Church
is dependent on tobacco and health of local economy.
112 Health group advocates, Tobacco-Free Kids,and tobacco
farmers have met and talked. Efforts to open dialogue
between Concerned Friends for Tobacco from Virginia and
health group folks. Farmers showed health advocates how
dependent communities are on tobacco. He thinks some of
that dialogue good. But hard for farmers to trust health
group folks a lot. A lot of health advocate groups say they
don't want to hurt farmers, "but everything is so
intertwined together. They want to keep the communities
whole—that's one of their favorite sayings they do. But if
you make the tobacco farmer himself whole, he'll make the
communities whole." Tobacco farmers spend their money in
the community.
137 Requests for community funding but he has problem with
that because he fears the money won't get to where it's
Interview number K-0230 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
21
needed. Tobacco politics about money. "They say it's to
stop kids from smoking, etcetera, etcetera, but when it gets
down to the bottom line it's all about money. Who's going
to get this much money to fund this project? Who's going to
get this much money for community redevelopment? Who's
going to get this much money for smoking cessation projects?
The list just goes on and on about what's happening in
Washington, what's going on with our livelihood. It's just
very simple to me to compensate the farmers for what's
happening to them, their loss in income or whatever may
occur, and try to make us as stable as we can into the
future, and we'll make the communities whole."
150 If farmers did vote out tobacco program, people who are
now getting rent for tobacco allotment and the value of
their land could evaporate overnight.
160 Tobacco program has been good to farmers for a long
time and given stability. So different attitudes among
farmers about how policy should go. He thinks most farmers
want the money they need to survive and take chances without
tobacco program. He thinks farmers should be compensated
because of uncertainty, no one knows if there will be a
market for tobacco. Trying to compete on world market, up
against farmers who governments are subsidizing them.
173 Martha asks if pesticide regulations aren't a lot more
lax in other countries than US? And people don't think
about that.
Interview number K-0230 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
22
179 Keith: other countries have few controls over
chemicals applied to tobacco. He wants "farmers to be able
to be secure and for the farming community to remain as much
as it can now as possible into the future." Almost
anybody's guess what will happen.
188 Keith not surprised McCain Bill killed; his group did
not support it. Bad piece of legislation. Tobacco program,
manufacturers, etc. intertwined. Holds a golf ball and
likens interdependence of various tobacco interests to
rubber bands inside golf ball. If you start picking at part
of tobacco, the program starts destroying itself and it's
designed that way so that everything stays in place. NC so
dependent upon tobacco that it's hard to anticipate effect
if tobacco gone.
216 Charlie: has there been a church voice present in
these conversations and if so, is church his allies or are
they silent?
220 Keith: church voice in these places channeled through
Farm Worker Services and Council of Churches and they're
more allied toward health group advocates than toward the
farmers. They might argue with him on that. Health group
folks say they want to save farmers and communities, but
he's never known one of those people who didn't want to get
rid of smoking and tobacco in US, period. That's always
their motive and objective. He's somewhat skeptical of
relationship. He and Rev. Warren Bock help roundtable
discussion at Ebenezer Church; got a mediator out of
Interview number K-0230 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
23
Fayetteville to come up and talked about labor issues. Talk
about carrying roundtable idea to other churches, but didn't
happen after Warren had heart problems. Farmers from all
over state came to Ebenezer Church three or four times and
"we talked about our differences." Efforts like that are
good, as are discussions sponsored by Concerned Friends for
Tobacco.
245 Keith thinks sitting down, eye to eye, is good. He
found that out as he talked with congressmen rather than
aides. He talked with Sen. Lugar himself and one of main
reasons tobacco farmers able to get some funding in
provisions he proposed is because they were able to explain
impact that loss of tobacco would have on communities.
256 Keith says he has not really seen a church presence at
these tobacco meetings except through health group folks,
"and through people like myself. I like to think I'm there
representing the churches, too." Tobacco might be a hot
potato that churches don't want to address.
270 Charlie says the health groups he's heard and talked to
think it's possible for farmers to convert to alternative
crops. He knows one organization trying to promote
alternative crops.
275 Keith thinks that's ridiculous. "We know what we can
grow and what we can't grow. We've tried it. They seem to
think you can take tobacco and do away with that and put
sweet potatoes and onions and squash." Market not there for
these crops. One farmer in this community could grow enough
Interview number K-0230 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
24
vegetables to satisfy Raleigh. Johnston County center of
sweet potato farming and ship to New York; but everybody
switched to sweet potatoes they'd be so cheap you could give
them away.
289 Charlie: what about hogs and poultry?
290 Keith: Moratoriums. They're here. Denning boys have
turkey and chicken houses and hog houses. Joey Johnson has
chicken houses. But livestock doesn't mingle with housing
developments. "The sentiment with that—if you can smell
it, it's bad." They've had problems with neighbors when
spread chicken manure on his field for organic fertilizer.
Martha remembers how bad it smelled. She fielded calls from
neighbors who were upset about odor. She explained about
manure being spread on field and how odor would dissipate
with rain.
318 Keith says limit to livestock operations—economic and
environmental limits.
321 Charlie raises issue of independence/being under
contract as livestock producer.
323 Keith says people suggesting that one day tobacco
farmers will be under contract to manufacturers and it well
may be that is what will happen. He doesn't think
manufacturers will want to contract on individual basis with
farmers; will want a go-between to do that. Being on a
contract system with a manufacturer would be a little
different than scale of investment that livestock operations
represent. Investment in chicken and house houses "is
Interview number K-0230 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
25
astronomical compared to the income you get back. Usually
the folks that I know, time you get them paid for there's
something new that they want you to do that requires more
money being spent. Everything's a gamble when you farm."
337 Charlie asks if more of a gamble than ten years ago?
Yes, much more. Martha says weather has changed on
them some. Plus, investment farmers make has increased.
They had to buy barns and tractors from Keith's daddy when
he retired. Seems like bigger investment in farming, but
not making as much money.
Keith: Profit margin not what it was 12 or 15 years
ago. One of their neighbors brags that he paid for a farm
in ten years and they're still paying on a farm they bought
18 years ago. Their tobacco greenhouse cost $40,000, "but
if you're going to stay in the business, you got to do these
things." Migrant house cost $15,000 to $20,000, because he
wanted a nice one and didn't want legal aid hunting him
down.
361 Martha: She has problem with high standards required
for labor. She likes H2A workers, but she doesn't think
it's quite fair that they have to meet such standards.
Farmers have to provide housing, water, electricity, fans.
384 Keith has trouble with some of the "stupid regulations"
that govern labor housing. Why have to take water samples
when on county water supply? Fifteen hundred gallon septic
tank system, which is unrealistic in sandy land.
Interview number K-0230 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
26
394 Charlie comments that regulations generalized rather
than specific to place.
395 Martha: "I want them to stay in a decent place. I
want them to have a good place. I would be miserable if
they were not staying in a decent place."
400 Charlie says there must have been people who have not
treated them well to inspire these regulations.
Keith: There are and they're still here. Mentions
News and Observer article recently about Johnston and
Sampson county farmers that legal services had been to.
There has been a lot of abuse and not just Mexicans. Recent
attention on black camps—Haitians and Jamaicans and local
blacks and practically had in slavery. His workers make
$300 and something a week. Crew leader who is selling
workers dope, wine, food and exploiting.
415 Martha: They say some of that when they had crew
leader. "We didn't really like it, but when you've got to
have help, you've got to have help." She likes H2A so much
better.
419 Charlie: H2A workers deal directly with farmer without
middle person.
420 Martha: Their workers have not asked them to drink.
"You want to treat them like you'd like to be treated. And
I have no problem with that." But seems like ought to be
able to use local help.
427 Last year tried to use local help and worst experience
they've ever had. Keith's blood pressure up all summer.
Interview number K-0230 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
27
Doctor would tell him to get rid of stress, but impossible
with crop in field. But these workers ready to go to work
in morning. They have families that they send money back
to.
442 Charlie wonders if these workers come from farms and
hope in long run to go back and make a living on their own
farms.
444 Keith: "That would be interesting to know." Charlie
says maybe he could talk to them since he speaks some
Spanish. Martha says they are always asking the workers if
they're happy, if everything is okay.
450 Keith: Mexican bakery in Coats and workers have
gotten to know the owner. If they've got a questions, they
all go over there. But still hard to communicate. Bakery
has been there about a year.
460 Keith tells about taking worker to doctor and need for
interpreter. He would like to be able to speak more
Spanish. Not work-related.
488 Martha: workers helped her clean out barn. She was
out there with them. Everytime she went to pick up
something they would take it out of her hand. They didn't
want her to do anything.
495 Keith: At first, Martha skeptical of H2A workers but
now is won over. And at first she didn't like fact their
trailer in back of their house. She just didn't know what
to expect. Next year they plan to have yard around trailer
looking a little better; put up volleyball goal. Ten
Interview number K-0230 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
28
workers; six work for them and four for another farmer.
Workers build patio for her and did an excellent job. No
one wanted to stand around. She's "completely sold on" H2A
workers. She hopes they get the same workers next year.
532 Charlie: Are they part of community now?
533 Martha: "Not yet." Keith says "H2A folks probably
will never really be a part of the community. They're a
visitor." He thinks that's the problem that Warren Bock and
others have with H2A, they're always visitors and they
separate families. "I can feel for that and I empathize
with that." But he's also told Warren that these workers
are here making more money in a month's time than they make
in a year in Mexico and they can send money back and improve
their lives there so much more by being here for a few
months. If they couldn't come to US and work, they may be
in starvation in Mexico. Martha says she would love to go
and see where workers come from in Mexico.
553 Keith: When workers are here temporarily, hard for
them to be part of the community. Martha doesn't think
people would treat them wrong. If they wanted to go to
church, that would be okay with her. Translation would be
main problem. Keith says there might be some resistance
from some people in church. Martha says black visitor with
Farm Workers Ministry came and joined choir and people liked
him. He's different but he's got a good personality and
everybody likes him. Martha considers him part of community
now.
Interview number K-0230 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
29
576 LAJ asks if there are many Latinos who originally came
as migrant workers and are now immigrants? For example, who
is supporting the Mexican bakery?
582 Keith: "What happened is, several years ago we
farmers, we could go with some of the Mexican people who
were here who were not legal and make them legal by signing
their cards and saying, yes, they've been here this summer,
last summer, working on the farm and we need to continue
that. We could sign the paperwork and they would become
legal. I know you remember when that was a few years ago.
What happened is farmers did that and then most of that
workforce, when they became legal, went and started work for
construction. So there's an awful lot of folks who are in
the painting and building and that type work now that are
paying more than farmers and it's a year-round thing, they
don't have to move around—who are now supporting the bakery
over here. There are lot more Latino groups here now than
there were several years ago, and it's because of that. Now
they can be here more openly and they don't have to move
around and do the migrant work. They can do legal work
through companies. That's good; in some ways it was a good
program, but also it did not do its intent which was to make
it legal for them to help us on the farm. And you can't
blame them for wanting to better themselves."
613 Martha a media assistant in library. She sees growing
number of Latino kids in Coats school. Ninety to 100 in
school.
Interview number K-0230 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.
30
[End of interview, July 8, 1998]
Interview number K-0230 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.