Siderial Astrology vs Tropical Astrology

By Danelle Dragonetti Originally published in The Denver Pentagram and

The Eclectic Witches Workbook 1995.

Expanded and revised by Danelle Dragonetti May 2010 Copyright Danelle Dragonetti 2010. Please reference.

I'm a professional Astrologer. I've been doing it for over 40 years. (Yes Martha, before

computers.) About 20 or so years ago I met a person who turned me on to Cyril Faggin

and Sidereal Astrology. What follows is why I do NOT work in the Tropical Astrological

format at all any more.

For my purposes... It came from "The Denver Pentagram" circa 1995 and is also

published in a book that Wyn Summerhawk and I wrote called The Eclectic Witches

Workbook - 1997 Little College of Witches. I have expanded this article as of May, 2010.

Sidereal Astrology vs Tropical

(Intro by Wynn Summerhawk)

I'm no astrologist by any stretch of the imagination. I know enough to realize that more

matters than my Sun sign. I have to get a computer to do my charts for me because the

math gets me tying my thumbs in knots. Still, something astrological has got my knickers

in a twist. I've always trusted the Tropical system that makes me a Sagittarius. I seem to

fit some of the descriptions of what one born under that Sun sign should be, and Libra

ascendant explains some things about my behaviors.

Then I find out that the Tropical system is based on where the stars were a long time ago.

Its not where they are now. The Sidereal system takes into account the movements of the

constellations. The Sidereal system makes me a Scorpio. Every trait ends up being

explained or described by the placements of planets in my chart under this system. My

whole personality and the things I undergo show up accurately in the Sidereal

calculations. What this tells me is the system works. I suppose I would have to have two

astrologists of equally high caliber do a reading for me in the two systems and compare

the results to be absolutely convinced that I am either a Sag or a Scorpio.

The bigger questions and concerns come to me when I consider the implications of using

tropical calendars to determine Moon Void of Course. I've often gone by my feelings in

choosing appropriate times to work magick, and found myself most comfortable and

successful in times that showed up later to be Voids while magick done in a tropical

Moon in Sign period proved duds. In fact much has gone awry when I was careful to do

everything by the book under a Tropical Moon in Sign.

I started using a computerized astronomy chart to figure out where the Moon was. It

turned out that the Tropical charts are off a great deal of the time from where the Moon

really is in the sky. I'm going with Sidereal. Its accurate. Maybe I am a Scorpio. Its not all

that important to me what my chart's doing but it matters a great deal what the sky is up

to when I'm working magick. As I said, I am no Astrologist, so I give you Winterhawk

(Danelle Dragonetti) who is one, to explain in technical terms what the differences are

and why they are so important. - Wyn Summerhawk

Needless to say the above story got me thinking as well. Recently a friend who is into

Sidereal Astrology asked me to open in my Tropical Ephemeris, look up the position for

the Moon, do the math to get the position for local time and look to see if the Moon was

in that constellation outside. I did but, IT WASN'T!! I checked my math. My math was

correct. I checked the ephemeris against my favorite program, Astrolog. It's coordinates

were just fine and matched the program but, the planet wasn't there in reality. What

happened?

Tropical Astrology is based on an imaginary point in space that the Earth comes to every

spring. The Vernal Equinox, March 21st. That imaginary point is what keeps the seasons

in their place and all Gregorian calendars are aligned to it every March 21st. (This is also

why we have leap year.)

Before we go further, let me explain what Tropical and Sidereal are in scientific terms.

(Not too scientific though)

Sidereal, or stellar, time is a system of time reckoning based on the rotation of the Earth

with respect to the celestial sphere, the imaginary sphere of the heavens surrounding us.

As the Earth rotates, one sidereal day is the time that it takes for a star to again pass

directly above a given observation point. Sidereal time is used in astronomical work. The

sidereal day is about four minutes shorter than the solar day. More precisely, 1 mean

solar day = 1.0027379093 sidereal days. An observer's local meridian is the great circle

passing through the observer's zenith and the celestial poles. The angle measured

westward from this meridian to the hour circle is called the hour angle (HA) of the star.

The hour angle of the vernal equinox is defined as the local sidereal time of the observer;

therefore, right ascension + hour angle = sidereal time. Sometimes, in place of delta, the

north polar distance (NPD) is used; this is the angle measured from the north pole to the

star.

Since the vernal equinox and equator are not fixed, because of PRECESSION, it is

necessary to specify at what date or epoch the coordinates were measured. For instance,

on the vernal equinox (Spring or March 21) in the year 221, if you were to look up in the

sky at noon on that date in Greenwich , England Aries would be right above your head at

0°. If you go out on March 21, 1996 at noon in Greenwich and look up you'll see 6° of

Pisces. That's what precession does.

The Tropical year is the period of time of one revolution of the Earth around the Sun

measured between successive vernal equinoxes. It equals 365.24220 mean solar days, or

365 days, 5 hours, 48 minutes, 46 seconds. Also called the solar year or the year of the

seasons, the tropical year is the basis of the calendar. This is why winter happens in the

northern hemisphere between December and March.

A year is a division of time defined basically by the period of revolution of the Earth

around the Sun. Various kinds of astronomical years and calendar years have been

defined. The astronomical year of chief importance to most of today's astrologers is the

tropical year, which is the time interval between successive occurrences of the spring

equinoxes. This is what keeps Aries at 0°. But, this is also an imaginary point.

A year is now about 365.2422 mean solar, or civil, days, the number decreasing very

slowly as a result of small, progressive changes in the Earth's rotational speed and its

orbit about the Sun. The seasons repeat, on the average, in this interval. The sidereal year,

determined by the Earth's position with respect to the stars, is 365.25636 mean solar days

which means that the year goes on a tiny bit longer every year. It is longer than the

tropical year because it is not subject to the shortening effects of precession though it

should be. This is what causes the vernal equinoxes to slowly go backwards in the signs.

Precession.

If the vernal equinox occurs in Greenwich, England at 6° Pisces in 1996 then why are all

the tropical astrologers trying to tell me that it's 0° Aries? If I go to my window and look

up at the sky on that day in Greenwich I'll see the constellation Pisces!! When I was born

using sidereal calculations for Chicago and my parents looked up at that second they

would have seen the Sun in 10° Aries NOT 3° Taurus.

I'm not saying that spring should occur at 0° Aries.. That would put it somewhere in

April... I think that the imaginary point that the Gregorian calendar is set to is great for

the reference of changing seasons / Sabbots but, it is not a good idea for reference to

astrology. The energy that is being produced by such and such a planet being in a sign

does not follow any imaginary point. It just is! Summer in the Northern Hemisphere is

Winter in the Southern.

Ptolemy, the father of today's astrology never heard of tropical astrology. He went out on

his balcony and looked up. If Jupiter was in Cancer it was in Cancer. This change from

Sidereal to Tropical Astrological systems can't quite be pinned down. Some texts say that

it occurred in the 1600's others say that Tropical gained acceptance somewhere in 1800's

when Greenwich, England was chosen as the place of 0 hour. I might also suggest that

the split between Astrology and Astronomy was due to that imaginary point. While

astrologers made their mathematical computations to always put Aries at 0° on March

21st, astronomers were looking through their telescopes and shaking their heads saying,

"I beg to differ.. Here.. Take a look for yourself". By today's standards the zodiac is now

off by 24°.

Cyril Fagan came upon the same conclusion in 1944. He spent the last 26 years of his life

trying to convince astrologers of the tropical zodiac that the fixed sidereal zodiac was the

one to be looked at when casting anyone's charts. In his book, A Primer of Sidereal

Astrology he explained in even more complicated terms, but never the less, convincingly

the how's and whys of what is being discussed herein. Not to many people listened. I

personally think he tried to simplify too much. Later Eshelman and Stanton carried on his

work and began to attract followers to sidereal astrology with their book, The New

Instant Astrologer.

In a letter written to written to Hindu astrologer, B.V. Raman, September 6th 1947 - Dr.

Jung wrote:

"Since you want to know my opinion about astrology I can tell you that I've been

interested in this particular activity of the human mind since more than 30 years. As I am

a psychologist, I am chiefly interested in the particular light the horoscope sheds on

certain complications in the character. In cases of difficult psychological diagnosis I

usually get a horoscope in order to have a further point of view from an entirely different

angle. I must say that I very often found that the astrological data elucidated certain

points which I otherwise would have been unable to understand. From such experiences

I formed the opinion that astrology is of particular interest to the psychologist, since it

contains a sort of psychological experience which we call 'projected' - this means that we

find the psychological facts as it were in the constellations."

Clearly Carl Jung was questioning a Vedic Astrologer. Vedic has always been Siderial.

From “The Complete Magickal System of The Golden Dawn”, Francis King writes:

“Between 1908 and 1912 Mathers issued side lectures and other manuscripts to those

Temples that were loyal to him. Much of this additional material reached the Stella

Matutina (via Brodie Innes) but some did not do so. Some of these later manuscripts are

of great interest, and one in particular, that seems to have been issued to Theorici Adepti

Minores, is of real importance; for it outlines an astrological system that differs in some

respects from both the normal western astrology taught in the Golden Dawn and its

off shoots, to members of the Portal Grade, and the sidereal ("starry") astrology used by

the Hindus and a minority of modern western astrologers.

Therefore I would suggest the reader consult any of the modern textbooks on sidereal

astrology with a view to gaining some insight into their particular kind of interpretation.

(For example in tropical astrology my ascendant is about 0 degrees Scorpio. By Mathers

calculations that would be shifted back to about the middle of Libra.)

In considering this 'initiated astrology' it must be borne in mind that the signs of the

Zodiac in popular astrology are completely out of step with the constellations bearing the

same names. The situation has arisen because of the precession of the equinox - the fact

that the equinoctial point (i.e., the point of the zodiac at which the sun lies when it

crosses the equator on March 21st each year) moves steadily through the zodiac in a

reverse direction to the motion of the planets. In spite of this fact, tropical astrologers

insist on calling this invisible, moving equinoctial point to the 0 degrees of Aries

although it is, in reality, many degrees away from the constellation of that name.”

Quite clearly Mathers, the father of western occult magick knew about precession and

Siderial Astrology.

Ask yourself this question, "How come when someone does my chart they just don't quite

get it"? With an astrological system off by 24° there would by a load of room for error.

Sun would be off by 24°, rising sign would be off.. therefore the houses will be off.. etc,

etc. This also means that the planets used in Tropical Astrology are off by 24°. (Ever

wonder why astronomers are laughing at astrologers?).

Alas, this also means that the predictions given by Tropical astrologers are off by years. I

can hear it now...Wait, wait, wait.. Hawk.. where's your proof? Just by chance I picked up

a book called Astrological Megatrends by Kluska. What he predicts (Tropically....then) is

happening Sidereally now. This is to say he was early in his predictions.

Example: Tropically Uranus is in Aquarius, Sidereally it just entered Capricorn. Kluska's

predictions for Uranus in Capricorn are NOW coming true not ten years ago. He

predicted that everyone would have computers in 1988, when in reality only 15% of the

population had them. Look around you now. Nearly 65% to 70% of the population has

them.. and their all connected to the inter net.(Uranus).

Example: Tropically Neptune is supposed to go into Aquarius in January of 1998.

Sidereally, it's 4° Capricorn. What Kluska predicted for the Congress never happened

until the 90's. This is when Neptune's rays started to effect us. (Planets rays = +/- 3° of a

sign on average).

Example: Tropically Pluto just entered Sagittarius. Sidereally it just entered Scorpio. This

doesn't bode well. What was supposed to happen when Pluto entered Scorpio that didn't

when the tropicalists said it would is now happening. Look at the news. Things like

investigations of the FBI, Congress looking at the Clinton's... Privacy issues on the inter

net, all the extreme things going on NOW are products of Pluto in Scorpio.

As of late, some astrologers put the date of the age of Aquarius at 1987 with the great

alignment. I disagree. If we're using the PRECESSION as the date it won't be here until

2356. Mark it on your calendars. That's when the Spring Equinox will take place at 29°

Aquarius 59'.

If we as a magickal community are going to use the powers that are available to us

through history we should make every effort to ensure that they are correct. Sidereal

Moon void of courses, the sign a planet is in and the timing of the aspects are NOT the

same as tropical, although the actual aspects themselves are, i.e., when Neptune is square

Moon tropically or sidereally...it is. The definitions of the signs, planets, or aspects are

still the same. The only difference is the actual timing.

Now when I do a sidereal chart to see if the Moon is void (don't want to do spells when it

is) and the chart tells me that the Moon is in Cancer; I can go outside, look up, and sure

enough that's where She is!! – Danelle Dragonetti a.k.a.