Vol. 253No. 6

Thursday,28 September 2017

DÍOSPÓIREACHTAÍ PARLAIMINTEPARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

SEANAD ÉIREANN

TUAIRISC OIFIGIÚIL—Neamhcheartaithe

(OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised)

Insert Date Here

28/09/2017A00100Business of Seanad � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 41928/09/2017A00050Commencement Matters � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 42028/09/2017A00250Courts Service � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 42028/09/2017B00900Departmental Properties � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 42328/09/2017C00500Solar Energy Guidelines � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 42528/09/2017G00100Order of Business � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 42828/09/2017R00100Message from Dáil � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 44728/09/2017R00300Business of Seanad � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 44728/09/2017W00100Housing: Statements � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 447

Déardaoin, 28 Meán Fómhair 2017

Thursday, 28 September 2017

Chuaigh an Cathaoirleach i gceannas ar 10�30 a�m�

Machnamh agus Paidir.Reflection and Prayer.

28/09/2017A00100Business of Seanad

28/09/2017A00200An Cathaoirleach: I have received notice from Senator Kieran O’Donnell that, on the mo-tion for the Commencement of the House today, he proposes to raise the following matter:

The need for the Minister of State at the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform with special responsibility for the Office of Public Works and flood relief to provide an update on the preparation of flood risk management plans under the Catchment Flood Risk Assessment, CFRAM, programme; and to outline when they will be published�

I have also received notice from Senator Kevin Humphreys of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Justice and Equality to rectify Ireland’s current breach of EU law and bring forward regulations to allow intellectual property claims below the value of €15,000 to come within the small claims procedure in the District Court and to allow companies to represent themselves in such proceedings�

I have also received notice from Senator Neale Richmond of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Health to outline the current status and ownership of and future plans for the Central Mental Hospital in Dundrum�

I have also received notice from Senator Tim Lombard of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Housing, Planning and Local Government to publish plan-ning guidelines for the regulation of solar farms�

I have also received notice from Senator Catherine Noone of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Finance to amend the VAT rates charged on sunbed ses-sions and sunscreens which stand at13.5% and 23%, respectively, given the significantly increased risk associated with a number of skin cancers attributable to sunbed use, and to make a statement on the matter.

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I regard the matters raised by Senators Kieran O’Donnell, Kevin Humphreys, Neale Rich-mond and Tim Lombard as suitable for discussion and they will be taken now. I regret that I have had to rule out of order the matter raised by Senator Catherine Noone on the grounds that it anticipates statements on the budget�

The Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government, Dep-uty Damien English is in the House� As I understand Senator Kieran O’Donnell has been de-layed, we will proceed with the matters raised by Senators Kevin Humphreys, Neale Richmond and Tim Lombard� I am afraid that we will not be able to deal with Senator Kieran O’Donnell’s matter because the Minister of State cannot delay this morning�

28/09/2017A00050Commencement Matters

28/09/2017A00250Courts Service

28/09/2017A00400Senator Kevin Humphreys: I thank the Cathaoirleach for selecting this matter. In an interview on RTE recently the new Chief Justice acknowledged a basic problem in the justice system, namely, the cost of engaging in litigation in certain cases was beyond the resources of many. There is little point in having a good courts system if a great many people find it difficult, if not impossible, to access it� That is true both for citizens and small businesses� The 2016 District Court rules which I downloaded yesterday indicate that it costs approximately €3,000 to hire a solicitor specialising in the area of intellectual property, while it costs approximately €1,000 to hire a barrister. Therefore, it would cost a total of €4,000 to take to court an infringe-ment claim for €1,500� The Minister of State will note that it involves a disproportionate cost for many small businesses to bring actions under these circumstances. Taking the figures I have given at face value, does the Minister of State consider that this situation is acceptable or should something be done to resolve this?

This issue has been kicked between Departments for the past two years. It is clearly a justice issue and one for the Minister for Justice and Equality. If we want to be a country that encourages people to be entrepreneurial and to start their own businesses, they must have ac-cess to the courts system�

There is an EU ruling on this area� Ireland is in breach of an EU ruling to allow a small business person to take a claim to our courts and to represent themselves. Failing our allowing a small business person to represent themselves, we should provide them with free legal aid, but it would be much more cost-effective to allow small business persons to represent themselves in our courts system� It is within the remit of the Department of Justice and Equality to allow this. This issue has been dodged for two years. I am seeking action today rather than platitudes. Urgent action needs to be taken if we are to encourage the development of an entrepreneurial society� We need to give our small businesses the supports they need as well as access to the courts system�

28/09/2017B00200Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government (Deputy Damien English): On behalf of the Minister for Justice and Equality, I thank the Senator for raising this matter. The Minister appreciates the Senator’s interest in this subject and apologises for not being able to be here due to a commitment in Dublin Castle�

First, on behalf of the Minister, it is not accepted that the State is in breach of EU law in

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regard to the matter the Senator has raised� Council Directive No� 2004/48/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 29 April 2004 on the enforcement of intellectual property rights has been transposed into lrish law by the European Communities (Enforcement of Intel-lectual Property Rights) Regulations 2006, Sl 360 of 2006� Proceedings may be brought in the District Court for damages for breach of copyright where a claim falls within that court’s threshold, which is a maximum of €15,000, and legal costs recoverable in the District Court are fixed by a scale in the District Court rules, which measures the costs in proportion to the value of the claim�

By contrast with remedies under EU law such as those falling within the European small claims procedure, the directive on enforcement of intellectual property rights does not mandate that remedies relating to intellectual property claims under the national law of a member state be the subject of a small claims procedure, nor does it mandate that corporations be entitled to represent themselves when bringing an intellectual property claim before the courts�

In so far as self-representation is concerned, this has been the subject of a detailed report in March 2016 of the Company Law Review Group, a statutory advisory expert body that advises the Minister for Business, Enterprise and Innovation on the review and development of com-pany law in Ireland� According to the report, the review group remains to be convinced of the need for a radical overhaul of the law in this area� Although it remains sympathetic to the plight of the many companies that fell victim to the collapse of the property market and recognises that in the absence of available funding a number of companies have been unable to have their objections to summary judgment heard, the review group recognises that the courts retain the discretion to hear from non-lawyers where justice requires and are best placed to determine whether justice so requires in the case of companies which are party to court proceedings. In particular, the review group does not recommend that legislation should introduce a blanket permission to companies to be represented by their shareholders, officers or others, or a general entitlement to so act where they are in financial difficulty.

The review group observes that the general rule against pro se representation of companies in court is well-established in Ireland and almost universally followed in other jurisdictions. There is no suggestion that the Irish approach is significantly out of line with the approach in most other jurisdictions. While the strict application of the rule may on occasion lead to appar-ent or real hardship, such consequences can be considered the quid pro quo for the concession of separate legal personality� As Ó Dálaigh CJ stated in Battle v� Irish Art Promotion Centre Ltd� in 1968, the creation of the company is the act of its subscribers� The subscribers, in dis-carding their own personae for the persona of the company, doubtless did so for the advantages which incorporation offers to traders. In seeking incorporation, they thereby lose their legal right of audience which they would have as individuals, but the choice has been their own�

I hope that clarifies the matter for the Senator.

28/09/2017B00300An Cathaoirleach: I ask the Senator to be brief in his supplementary question. I read re-marks made by the new Chief Justice to the effect that the courts should be more easily acces-sible and available� A small courts system might resolve the Senator’s issue, although I should not be commenting on it, but it is an interesting point�

28/09/2017B00400Senator Kevin Humphreys: I appreciate the Cathaoirleach’s comments which are con-structive� I do not want to have a go at the Minister of State, Deputy English, as I understand his position, having been in a similar position previously when I have delivered a script� I ap-

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preciate he is representing the Minister for Justice and Equality�

I wish to correct what he said� EU law demands that we must either let companies repre-sent themselves or increase the costs that are recoverable, or give legal aid� That is quite clear� The Minster spoke about the review. The Copyright Review Committee put forward sensible proposals in line with our EU partners� For example, in the Netherlands, companies can bring claims of less than €24,000 without a lawyer, in Germany, they can bring claims of less than €5,000, in England, there is no limit, in Sweden, no lawyer is required, and in Scotland, they are planning to introduce measures with respect to intellectual property, IP, rights through the small claims court, a system on which the Chairman has just commented.

The response the Minister of State has given is contradictory to the view the Taoiseach gave seven years ago when he raised the same issue regarding enforced representation with the then Minister, Mary Coughlan, and that was questioned with respect to item 213 of 2010�

I ask the Minister of State to ask for the Department to correspond with me in a factual manner� There are a number of inaccuracies in the reply I was given� The way the system is operating protects large businesses and gives no support to small businesses, with the effect that the only people making money out of this are solicitors and barristers. If small business people want to take a claim, they will be at a loss. Most of the time they cannot afford it, so no claim is taken. If we want to encourage people to set up small businesses, we must allow them access to the courts and at the very least they should be allowed to represent themselves. I find such onerous costs of up to €4,000 for a claim of only €1,500 unacceptable� The script that was delivered today was quite insulting both to this House and to myself�

28/09/2017B00500An Cathaoirleach: The Minister of State has already delivered a script. It might make sense if the Minister for Justice and Equality or his staff contacted the Senator directly� The Minister of State was obviously given a script� I would also say that we should not shoot the messenger�

28/09/2017B00600Senator Kevin Humphreys: I acknowledge that.

28/09/2017B00700Deputy Damien English: It is okay, a Chathaoirligh. I can take plenty of bullets. As this is not my line Department, I do not have all the details of the case, but I would seriously doubt that the reply is factually wrong� Generally, Departments are quite good when it comes to factual information. I have no problem in consulting the Minister on this matter and I will ask him to engage with and to write to the Senator on this matter�

I want to make it clear that I have a similar view to that of the Cathaoirleach on this issue. It is one that could be examined� The Chief Justice made those comments and, clearly, there is the independence of the courts to make judgements in these cases. There is more to this than merely the Department giving a factual position on the matter� It is an area of interest to myself, given my previous role in the Department with responsibility for enterprise� I agree with the Senator that some companies, when it comes to intellectual property, can face great difficulty. We must always try to help them as best we possibly can, but there is more than one way of addressing that�

On the factual matter, I cannot put my hand on heart and say I am absolutely right in what I have given the Senator, but I would be very surprised if there are any factual errors in the reply from the Department� I will get the Minister to write to the Senator on that as well�

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28/09/2017B00800An Cathaoirleach: We cannot advance the matter any more today but the Minister of State might forewarn the Minister for Justice and Equality that Senator Humphreys seems to be com-ing well armed on this issue�

28/09/2017B00900Departmental Properties

28/09/2017B01000Senator Neale Richmond: I wish to raise the issue of the Central Mental Hospital in Dundrum in Dublin 16. I first raised this issue with the former Minister of State, Deputy Helen McEntee, in the context of a wider debate on mental health and before she moved on from Department of Health� I raise it this morning for a more parochial reason, namely, that there is considerable concern in the local area about the future not only of the hospital and the activi-ties within it but the site on which it is located� The Central Mental Hospital has been located in Dundrum for more than 150 years� It sits on a 34-acre site with an immediate local popula-tion of just over 12,500 people. I am aware that it is in the ownership of the Office of Public Works. We have a number of questions relating to the future of the hospital and what will hap-pen� Those questions relate to the timing of the departure� The hospital and its activities are due to move to St� Ita’s Hospital in Portrane in north county Dublin, however, the dates for an expected move have shifted a number of times due to various planning concerns and concerns over construction times, so could the Minister of State elaborate on when the hospital is due to move or give us an earlier estimation if possible?

When the hospital does move, that leaves this 34-acre site in the middle of a very populous area up for grabs� The Minister of State is substituting for the Minister of State, Deputy Jim Daly, this morning but I know it is of particular interest to the Department of Housing, Plan-ning, Community and Local Government� What is the future for this large site in the heart of peri-urban and suburban Dublin? First and foremost, the site, which is covered by my forming stamping ground of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council, is zoned for institutional use but there is an allowance for an element of residential use� There were a number of local pro-tests during the summer from a certain fringe group that wanted the entire site to be converted to social housing - estimated at up to 1,200 units� I would imagine that this would be quite large and go against the whole idea of balanced housing strategy but I would like to hear the Minister of State’s personal insight if that was possible�

The future of the hospital has been up for grabs� We heard at one stage that it was a pos-sible site for a foreign country wanting to host its ambassador’s residence� We have heard that it might revert to the Irish Prison Service or stay within the HSE but, ultimately, what is needed with a large site in the middle of a well-populated area is that it opens up to the community� For over 150 years, it has been closed off to the community� Very impressive large granite walls are all most people know. I have contacted the powers that be to request a tour. It was very com-mon under the Eastern Health Board but it has not been done recently in terms of reaching out to the community. We know about the patients who are resident in that hospital and we know a lot about the crimes they committed in the past but going forward, this is an opportunity to open it up to the community and develop it as a central part of Dundrum� A lot of people are looking to re-imagine Dundrum and we want people to know that Dundrum is far more than a shopping centre�

28/09/2017C00200Deputy Damien English: I thank Senator Richmond for raising this issue and apologise for the fact that the Minister of State, Deputy Jim Daly, could not be here to take it because, as

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the Senator knows, he is interested in this following on from the work of the previous Minis-ter of State, Deputy McEntee� The development of all aspects of mental health, including the national forensic mental health service delivered by the Central Mental Hospital, remains a priority for the Government� Opened in 1850, the Central Mental Hospital was the one of the world’s first facilities to balance the needs of a therapeutic care environment in a secure setting. Although currently in use, it has been obvious for some time that this Victorian building is not suitable for 21st-century mental health care� Therefore, in accordance with the Government’s commitment to implement A Vision for Change, we prioritised this year significant capital funding to provide a modern forensic mental health complex at St� Ita’s Hospital in Portrane� The new facilities recently commenced construction and are due to become operational in 2020� That is the most up-to-date position�

The Central Mental Hospital admits patients from both the prison service and mental health approved centres� In order to meet increasing demands, a unit within the hospital has been re-furbished to provide an additional ten beds for those referred primarily under section 21(2) of the Mental Health Act. The HSE is currently in discussions with nursing unions via the Work-place Relations Commission regarding opening this unit as quickly as possible. Managing the competing priorities of all those who have been assessed as requiring admission is being done on the basis of assessed clinical need and is monitored on a weekly basis by the Central Mental Hospital� In addition, the national forensic mental health service provides prison in-reach clin-ics at Cloverhill, Mountjoy and the Dóchas Centre along with Wheatfield, Midlands, Portlaoise, Castlerea and Arbour Hill prisons�

Following the signing of a contract in June 2017, construction of the new 170-bed national forensic mental health complex started at Portrane� The new national centre will provide psy-chiatric care in a modern and high-quality facility that rivals the best abroad� The new 120-bed national forensic mental health hospital at Portrane will replace the existing 93 beds at the Central Mental Hospital and will also provide a new ten-bed forensic unit for children and adolescents and a new ten-bed unit for mental health intellectual disability� In addition, the new complex will include a new 30-bed intensive care rehabilitation unit, the first of its kind in the country� Such a facility has long been called for and will help relieve pressures both on the main forensic hospital and on the prison system by enabling greater diversion of low-level offenders with mental health issues away from the justice system to appropriate mental health care� In common with the recognised excellence of the Central Mental Hospital, the new com-plex will augment the concept of recovery in a modern and clinical setting�

The disposal or otherwise of the site of the Central Mental Hospital in Dundrum cannot proceed until such time as the hospital is vacated following the completion of the new national forensic mental health service facilities at Portrane. However, I think it makes total sense, as Senator Richmond noted, for us to have this discussion and make plans for the future because 2020 is not that far away� As the Department responsible for planning, that is something on which we would be happy to engage with the Senator, no doubt through his local authority� We recognise that the Central Mental Hospital is part of the State property portfolio under the Office of Public Works, which is a State Agency of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. It would make total sense to look at this site and, as the Senator rightly notes, involve the community in that conversation, including the needs of the Dundrum area and how they can be serviced�

Regarding housing, as the Department responsible for housing and planning, we are under a lot of pressure to deliver housing in key areas like Dublin city and the surrounding areas. We

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would be interested in looking at that site but delivering a development of 1,200 social housing units anywhere is not in our plans. We are very clear on this. While we are trying to tackle the housing crisis and deliver social and private housing, we do not believe the development of large-scale social housing on one site is the way to solve this� Naturally, in those decisions, one looks at the entire area and sees what the percentages are. In respect of sites that are State-owned, we are looking at mixed developments and having a mixture of social, affordable and private housing in different percentages and other services. It strikes me that this is a conversa-tion that must be held locally and the Senator is right to approach it from a community point of view in terms of what is needed in Dundrum� That might involve some residential development but that decision would generally be up to the local authorities. In March 2017, we looked at all State-owned sites throughout the country that could be used for land. I do not think this site was included on that for housing but we have 800 sites throughout the country that we are looking at and we will bring forward plans on those sites that are suitable for housing. It could be looked at in that context� The OPW would be the main body that would own the site�

28/09/2017C00300An Cathaoirleach: Senator Richmond might revisit the matter in the spring�

28/09/2017C00400Senator Neale Richmond: I thank the Minister of State and commend him on his work. I asked two or three specific questions and he provided good answers to them for which I am very grateful. I ask him to pass on my regards to the Minister of State, Deputy Jim Daly, who I know is in lovely Stillorgan this morning so he cannot be here. I appreciate the engagement.

28/09/2017C00500Solar Energy Guidelines

28/09/2017C00600Senator Tim Lombard: I raised this matter on 15 November 2016� The need for solar farms to have planning guidelines is an important issue in so many locations throughout Ireland and it affects most local authorities� It is becoming very important because we have had 225 planning applications for solar farms throughout Ireland in the past 24 months� This issue needs to be dealt with and is one of the core issues relating to our renewable energy policy� We have targets we hope to meet by 2020� Renewable energy is a very important part if we are to reach those targets and solar farms will play a role in that� How big the role will be will be determined in many ways by Government policy� In particular, I note the White Paper on energy that was published a few years’ ago�

We need national Government to move into the frame and put planning guidelines in place so that communities, developers and local authorities have the ability to plan around the na-tional guidelines� There is frustration among local authorities, developers, communities and even An Bord Pleanála about the lack of that national framework. We have seen some decisions that have been made in the past few months� An Bord Pleanála famously stated at the start of the year that it was extremely worried about the sudden wave of applications coming forward without national guidelines. We have seen decisions by local authorities, one only a few weeks ago, where planning permission was refused because of the lack of national guidelines. Ev-erybody is saying that there is a lack of such guidelines. Communities, developers and local authorities would welcome them� It is a very important sector but it needs to be regulated� In so many ways we are over-regulated but in this area we are looking for a Department to bring forward guidelines�

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To me, they are essential if we are to have proper, sustainable development� The real guide-line is that a developer sees a generation station or substation in a location and knows that it is the location where it would be more financially beneficial for him or her to locate a solar farm. It has nothing to do with planning guidelines, quality of soil or the level of the land� These are big issues that we need to consider� A total of 225 planning applications went through the system without these guidelines and there are more coming� There is a wave of them coming� Until there is clarity on tariffs, we will continue to have a wave� That is an issue the Minister, Deputy Denis Naughten, needs to clarify at some stage�

I raised this issue on 15 November and have seen very little progress since� I raised it with the Minister on 7 December and have seen very little progress since� I am raising it again now, nearly one year later� In many ways, this is the time we need planning guidelines to be put in place in order that the local authorities which have to make decisions will have the ability to make fair decisions. At present, it is a case of one decision at a time. That is not good for re-newables policy, planners or residents�

28/09/2017D00200Deputy Damien English: I thank the Senator for raising this issue. A year goes by very quickly. I am glad that I am here in a different building but in the same office to discuss this issue�

There are no specific planning guidelines in place for solar farms and, as matters stands, I have no proposal to bring forward such guidelines� We discussed the issue before and, if need be, I will not hesitate to act in this area�

Under the Planning and Development Act 2000, as amended, each planning authority’s development plan is required to set out an overall strategy for the proper planning and sustain-able development of the area concerned� Section 10 of the Act requires a development plan to include, among other things, objectives for the provision or facilitation of the provision of infrastructure, including energy facilities and infrastructure� Many local authorities have de-veloped renewable energy strategies for their areas in this context, rightly so, and I encourage others to do the same. Proposals for individual solar farm developments are also subject to the statutory requirements of the Planning and Development Act 2000, as amended, in the same manner as other proposed developments� Planning applications are required to be submitted to the relevant local planning authority with a right of appeal to An Bord Pleanála�

In making decisions on planning applications planning authorities and the board must con-sider the proper planning and sustainable development of the area, having regard to the provi-sions of the development plan, submissions or observations received and relevant ministerial or Government policies, including relevant guidelines issued by my Department� Planning authorities must then make their own decision, based on the specific merits, or otherwise, of individual planning applications. I am satisfied that the planning code is sufficiently robust to facilitate the assessment of individual planning permission applications for solar farm develop-ments. I am very clear that the lack of national guidelines is not a reason for refusing a solar farm application. We can have discussions about other reasons, but the lack of national plan-ning guidelines is not an appropriate reason for refusal�

The matter will be kept under review in consultation with my colleague, the Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment and his Department, the lead Department on renewable energy policy, in the context of the Government’s White Paper on Energy Policy which was published in December 2015, the development of a renewable electricity policy

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and development framework, REPDF, and the launching of a new subsidy support scheme for renewable electricity by the Department which was recently published for public consultation and is expected to be in place in 2018� It will greatly help the conversation we are having� The subsidy support scheme is required in order to assist in meeting our renewable energy targets, as well as to facilitate greater diversity of supply and foster community engagement in renew-able energy projects.

The energy White Paper sets out a vision to accelerate the development and diversification of renewable energy in Ireland� A draft REPDF has been formulated, aimed at optimising the opportunities for producing electricity from a variety of renewable energy sources in projects of significant scale on land. It will be subject to further public consultation prior to its adoption. A Programme for a Partnership Government contains a commitment to facilitate the development of solar energy projects in Ireland that builds on the energy White Paper and recognises that solar energy also has the potential to provide a community dividend, thereby further enhancing citizen participation in Ireland’s energy future� Consequently, solar technology such as solar farms is one of the technologies being considered in the context of the new subsidy support scheme for renewable electricity generation being developed by the Minister’s Department� In this connection, it is recognised that the new subsidy support scheme is required in order for the development of solar farms to become economically viable, which is not the case in most circumstances� The new subsidy support scheme will require Government approval and state-aid clearance from the European Commission before it can come into operation�

I have no proposals to bring forward specific planning guidelines for solar farms However, the matter will be kept under review. Certainly, on foot of the work being done by the Minister, it is something on which we can follow through, if need be� What the Senator raised is often cited locally as an issue, but it is not a reason� Planners in local authorities, if they have the co-operation of those authorities and their members, are well capable of making these decisions to allow us to move forward in this area. Naturally, if we have to act following the work of the Minister, we will do so�

28/09/2017D00300An Cathaoirleach: That was a very comprehensive response� I am sure the Senator is very enlightened as a result�

28/09/2017D00400Senator Tim Lombard: I am very much enlightened but very disappointed at the same time� It is an issue that

if the planning guidelines are put in place, the horse will have bolted at that stage� That is realistically what we are facing� The real guidelines will apply when the actual tariffs are set by the Minister, Deputy Denis Naughten, as they will determine what will be built� Developments will be built according to what is financially viable. If the tariff is too high, every development might be built, but if it is too low, we will have none built� In many ways, what could actually emerge is that the planning guidelines will be associated with the actual tariff announced by the Minister after the consultation process he announced last month� I will still be pressing for planning guidelines which have to be produced� Having developments of the scale in question, on 200 acre sites and no national guidelines, does not make sense.

28/09/2017D00500Deputy Damien English: I support and encourage solar farm developments� I hope that, through the discussion and consultation process, they will be deemed to be worthwhile and merit the support of the Government. To me, that makes sense. If we can make it economically viable, it will make even more sense. One can still farm the land in most cases and put it to use.

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In some cases there is a lack of information. Therefore, we need to build trust in the system. If planning guidelines are required at a later stage to achieve this, we will act� I wish to be very clear, however, that the lack of national guidelines is not a reason for refusal.

28/09/2017D00600An Cathaoirleach: As somebody who nearly 30 years ago came out in favour of wind energy projects, I note that there is still a lot of turbulence about where wind farms should be located, connections and power lines. I am sure it is an ongoing debate. I thank the Minister of State and the Senator�

Sitting suspended at 11.10 a.m. and resumed at 11.30 a.m.

28/09/2017G00100Order of Business

28/09/2017G00200Senator Jerry Buttimer: The Order of Business is No� 1, motion regarding the referral to the joint committee of the Eighth Report of the Convention on the Constitution, to be debated on the conclusion of the Order of Business, and No. 2, statements on housing, to be taking at 1.15 p.m. and to conclude no later than 3.15 p.m., with the contributions of group spokesper-sons not to exceed eight minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed five minutes, and the Minister to be given five minutes in which to reply to the debate.

28/09/2017G00300Senator Catherine Ardagh: Today I would like to raise two matters, the first being respite services and the second being the rail strike. With regard to respite services, there are over 360,000 people who act as carers� They have been very badly affected by funding cuts and staff shortages� The result is that many carers are often left in a position in which they have no time off, which is having a negative impact on their physical and mental health� The report by Fam-ily Carers Ireland reveals that the lack of support, including the reduction in respite services, was leaving many carers struggling. In June of this year, our colleague, Senator Colm Burke, said the crisis in respite care will worsen if people live longer and as carers age. Lack of respite was, as he said, an accruing problem that will not go away�

HIQA inspections have resulted to date in respite centres closing down as they are not fit for purpose� No alternatives have been offered by this Government to these families, who re-ally appreciate these vital services. The Taoiseach has spoken about giving back in the budget and I hope that some of the most vulnerable, the home carers, will be acknowledged and that their incredible hard work will be recognised through increased funding for respite care. Home carers take a large amount of pressure off the HSE and this should really be recognised by the Government. I ask the Minister for Health and the Taoiseach to come to this House to outline exactly what they intend to do to meet the needs of those who use respite services�

We all know the pay negotiations between Irish Rail staff collapsed at the WRC and that rail strikes look like they are coming down the tracks. Strikes could begin as soon as the October bank holiday weekend and this, as we know, will cause serious disruption over the coming weeks. The two main drivers’ unions are seeking pay increases of 3.75% without any associated productivity measures, and this is in line with the pay increase given to Dublin Bus workers, which seems fair enough. It is understood that the workers were offered an increase of 1.5%, accompanied by 19 different measures, including the outsourcing of work, loss of contracted hours, relocation of staff, closure of booking offices, and new performance manage-ment systems�

Mr� Dermot O’Leary, one of the chief negotiators, said that unless the staff get a credible offer, they want to see a ballot paper� This issue has been coming down the line for a long time

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and it is incumbent on the Minister, Deputy Shane Ross, to address it� He has sat and done nothing for too long, and I do not believe it is credible for him not to intervene at all in this industrial relations disaster� I call on the Minister to come to the House to explain exactly what he is doing to address this matter as doing nothing is not an option�

28/09/2017G00400Senator Victor Boyhan: I hope the Leader will organise a debate on national rehabilitation services in Ireland� I have raised this on a number of occasions� The Leader’s colleagues, on the other side of the House, have raised it� We now have a serious problem� We have had com-mitments given to us in Seanad Éireann on the delivery of beds� There were ten beds closed at Christmas in the National Rehabilitation Hospital in Dún Laoghaire� We were given commit-ments� The Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy Finian McGrath, was in the House� One will remember that we refused to approve the Order of Business for the day and eventually the Minister of State had to come in after tea on the day in question, at the Leader’s request. I thank the Leader for organising and facilitating it at the time.

This matter was discussed in January and again in April, May and June of this year� We have seen commitments that there would be a phased reopening of the ten beds� If one exam-ines the capacity, one notes there are fewer than 100 beds in the facility� Therefore, some 10% of the beds were closed down under the watch of this Government this year, in January� The bottom line is that we were then told that they would be re-opened on a phased basis, four by the summer�

Yesterday I received a telephone call again from contacts in the hospital who work there who say they are totally frustrated about all the excuses and arguments about recruitment, re-sources, etc� What is really more critical and a great scandal is that patients are waiting in a queue for beds trying to gain access to the national rehabilitation services in Dún Laoghaire� It is a pathetic debate to be talking about re-opening four of ten beds that were closed in January. All the beds are required�

There has been a plan for years about demolishing the place and building a new hospital� Despite three or four Ministers for health and three or four relevant Ministers and Deputies in the constituency, nothing has happened� We need a greater debate on the rehabilitation services for the whole country and on how regional services are fed into the national service at the reha-bilitation hospital� Excuses and re-opening four beds, when ten were closed in January, are an absolute disgrace� This is an indictment of our health service� It needs to be addressed� Given that we now have time on our schedule in our Seanad in which to do business, we could address this important matter. I ask that the Leader arrange for the Minister with direct responsibility for this area of government to come into the House to explain the rationale for the closures in Dún Laoghaire and, more important, the short, medium and long-term plans for a roll out of a comprehensive rehabilitation service�

28/09/2017G00500Senator Rose Conway-Walsh: I want to say how dismayed I was yesterday over the hysterical rant from Mr� O’Donovan to my request that capital expenditure address the huge infrastructure deficit in rural areas.

28/09/2017H00100Senators: Hear, hear�

28/09/2017H00200Senator Rose Conway-Walsh: It was totally unacceptable and it should never happen again in this House. He never addressed any of the issues I raised about Knock airport, the development of a proper hospital in Galway, roads infrastructure or broadband infrastructure�

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Instead he engaged in a huge rant against Sinn Féin� He should be able to come into the House as a Minister of State and address these very important issues� I will leave it to the people of rural Ireland and the people of the west to judge how competent he is as a Minister of State making vital decisions that affect our future. It should never be allowed to happen here and I hope it never happens again�

Speaking about infrastructure in the west of Ireland, I was very disappointed to read today in the Tuam Herald about Deputy Micheál Martin’s endorsement of the greenway between Tuam and Athenry� We and the western rail corridor action group have been campaigning for years to bring back the train services to have proper connectivity all along the west coast. Fianna Fáil might be throwing up its hands at this and stating it will not happen and that the invest-ment in infrastructure is not needed in the west but we in Sinn Féin will keep up the fight for rural Ireland to have proper infrastructure and proper rail services� The excuse is used that not enough people are using the rail services but if the timetabling is not right the investment is not put into it and it is not there to suit the public� That means the people are not able to use it� It is just another example of Fianna Fáil kowtowing to Fine Gael’s neglect of the west and it is not acceptable�

The other issue I want to speak about today is physiotherapy. I commend my colleague, Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin, for bringing forward today our prebudget submission on rights and equality and prioritising people with disabilities� We must be on the side of people with disabilities. The measure I wish to speak about is the employment of 600 additional front-line staff, including speech and language therapists, occupational therapists, physiotherapists and psychologists, and the expenditure of €32�76 million to engage these extra staff who are needed� This is vital for all areas, including the west and Mayo� At present, we see where we do not have the physiotherapy or occupational therapy needed for children with disabilities and adults with disabilities. They have been clinically assessed as needing weekly, and sometimes twice weekly, physiotherapy and they are not getting it. In my area people have to do a round trip of 100 miles just to access a physiotherapist. This is not right and it needs to be addressed. I am very glad it is addressed in our prebudget submission, which is fully costed to show how it can be done if the Government will is there to do it�

28/09/2017H00300Senator Lynn Ruane: The first issue I wish to raise relates to articles I have read in recent days on a French law to be enacted next month� It raises an important conversation point and I would like the Leader to bring in the Minister, Deputy Naughten, to discuss it. The law will stipulate that images of models who have been altered in any way to make them appear thinner in magazines and the media must come with a caution in the text� Getty Images has gone one step further and banned photoshopped pictures� It is an important conversation to have because it feeds into a wider debate on the narrative and message we send young women about how they should and should not look. Magazines should be transparent with regard to their use of photoshopped photographs� It would be an important discussion to have�

I also wish to raise the issue of young people entering education through paths other than the CEO system. A young girl contacted me recently. The European Globalisation Adjust-ment Fund has paid for her to study in the film academy because it believes she has talent. The problem is the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection has removed her job-seeker’s allowance and will not allow her access education. This young woman from west Tal-laght is trying to work her way out of poverty, but she is left with no alternative but to give up the course or continue it without any payment to survive� This begs the question as to how we move people off the live register. Instead of looking to the Department of Education and Skills

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perhaps we could bring in the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection to dis-cuss its role in access to education and moving people out of poverty� I call for a debate with the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection and her role in access to education�

I lend my voice and support to the calls this week for progress on Seanad reform.

28/09/2017H00400Senator Kevin Humphreys: Yesterday, I spoke about the baby friendly health initiative being paused and its funding being discontinued, and the importance of increasing breastfeed-ing rates in this country. I asked the Leader to organise bringing the Minister to the House for a debate. It will take far too long for the Minister to come to the House so I ask the Leader to use his good offices to ask the Minister to meet, as quickly as possible, the independent voluntary group that has run the initiative so well for the past 20 years to allow it to put its case directly to the Minister� It would be much more helpful to the baby friendly health initiative and much bet-ter for the women and babies of this country to get it back up and running as quickly as possible.

We have all seen the rail and transport crisis throughout the country� All of the signals over that past six months are that we will see major industrial problems in public transport. I am very disappointed with regard to the appointment of chairpersons for various Government transport bodies� The term of Ultan Courtney, the chairman of Dublin Bus, expired on 22 September 2017. The term of Philip Gaffney, chairman of Iarnród Éireann, expired on 8 July 2017. The term of Aidan Murphy, chairman of Bus Éireann, expired on 9 July 2017� The term of John Fitzgerald, a member of the National Transportation Authority, expired on 31 May 2017� The term of Vivienne Jupp as chairman of CIE expired on 9 July 2014, which is a bit worrying� The term of John Power, chairman of the Railway Safety Advisory Council, expired on 30 Septem-ber 2017. These are very concerning. It has been flagged since we had strikes in the Luas that there is huge dissatisfaction in transport, on the very basis that we have a Minister who is quite happy to spout on about public appointments rather than make them. Three of those posts were dealt with at the most recent Cabinet meeting, but the appointees have yet to go before the com-mittees�

We have ended up with a Minister who has no interest whatsoever in being the Minister with responsibility for transport. He is either inept or incompetent or he just does not care. We need action because people depend on public transport to get to work every day. We need a good public transport service if we are to deal with the climate crisis facing Ireland� The transport sector has been increasing its carbon footprint over the past two years but we have seen little or no action. If we were to mark the Minister’s scorecard we would probably have to give him two out of ten so far�

28/09/2017H00500Senator David Norris: Generous�

28/09/2017H00600Senator Kevin Humphreys: Am I generous? I thank the Senator. We need action. On the most recent occasions the Minister has come to the House we have heard all about the Rugby World Cup and very little about public transport. The inaction in filling these positions shows how unconcerned he is about the travelling public of this country�

28/09/2017H00700Senator Catherine Noone: I support Senator Humphrey’s comments on breastfeeding, which is an issue I have raised in the House on a number of occasions� It is a vital issue for the health of our young people� I agree entirely with Senator Lynn Ruane’s comments on photo-shopping and filtering, and I think it might work in the context of a debate on Internet safety and teenagers using the Internet because it is an issue I raised around self worth with Instagram

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and Facebook and the perfect world that people portray online that is really affecting young people’s perceptions of themselves� It could be a very interesting debate to have�

The annual report of the National Office for Suicide Prevention was launched yesterday. It was stated that while the number of suicides has stabilised in recent years, there is still an alarm-ing number of people taking their own lives and self harming. I came across an interesting model that has been introduced in Michigan in the United States called a zero suicide model, which has been introduced in hospitals and clinics, whereby once people present themselves in a clinic or hospital, even if it is for a broken ankle or some sort of a virus, they are assessed by being asked a few simple questions, which would be indicators as to the state of their mental health and if any issues are identified they are then referred on. It is just part of the overall pro-cess� According to UNICEF, Ireland has the fourth highest rate of teen suicide in the European Union� In recent years there has been a dramatic reduction in the number of suicides among mental health patients, lowering well below the national average in Michigan. In just over a decade, the implementation of this model has resulted in a drop in suicide by mental health pa-tients from 89 people in 100,000 to 16 people in 100,000. That is a very significant reduction and many health insurance companies have given it their backing. I think it is a very interest-ing proposal. By assessing all patients as having potential mental health risk, whatever their reasons for being in hospital, suicide prevention can receive a significant boost. If the Minister of Sate with responsibility for mental health, Deputy Jim Daly comes to the House, this would be an interesting aspect of mental health to discuss with him�

28/09/2017J00200Senator Jennifer Murnane O’Connor: As Members will be aware, this week has been designated Positive Aging Week. People are living longer. The Budget Statement will be an-nounced in two weeks time and we will be looking for a fair budget for older people, a budget that recognises the contributions made in the past decades by more than 600,000 workers, those who worked in the home and in business who are all now pensioners.

The income provided by the State old age pension and the household benefit package to-day is still less than it was in 2009� Cuts to income supports such as the fuel allowance, the telephone allowance, combined with rising prices and new taxes are driving even more older people into poverty� Waiting lists for home help services are growing rapidly and result in the failure to provide decent home care� An old age pensioner with a medical card must pay €2�50 for each item that is dispensed on prescription, and this can be up to €25 a month for those on a lot of medication� We need to see more support for older people� We need to increase the number of home help hours to provide the service to an additional 22,500 people in 2018 and also we need to introduce a reliable programme to support 16,000 older people to live inde-pendently. I think that is crucial. As we know, people are living longer and the services are not there� We need to ensure in this budget that we provide a service for all elderly people, the people who contributed by paying their taxes� I hope that people will support this suggestion, as I believe we need to do so�

28/09/2017J00300Senator Michael McDowell: On the supplementary Order Paper there is a proposal to re-fer the 2014 report of the Convention on the Constitution to a committee in respect of housing and the Constitution� It seems to me that we have a rash of proposals for constitutional change now� Stephen Collins in The Irish Times today queries whether we should scrap the Constitu-tion completely as there are so many amendments being proposed to it�

The Constitution is not some kind of message board for a Government that floats ideas to distract us from the real issues� The Constitution is the basic set of rules by which this society

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is operated. It does not need to be tinkered with constantly. Let me take one example, and I am sure I will offend some people in the House who are on the side of political correctness, the idea of giving votes to people at the age of 16 years is rubbish� If it is illegal to sell a person of 16 years a scratch card for the national lottery, if they cannot go into a public house, if they are incapable of entering into a contract in law, and if the asylum seekers of 16 years are counted as children, the idea of giving children a vote is nonsense� It is a distraction� Furthermore it will be defeated comprehensively in the same way as the foolish idea of reducing the age of the presidential candidates from 35 years to 21 years was defeated by the people� We need less of this gimmickry nonsense. The proposal to abolish the Seanad was not taken out of any conviction, it was a pure voting getting stunt at a particular time in Fine Gael’s internal politics, nothing more. I suggest that instead of taking all of these proposals seriously and talking about rafts of referendums in the next number of years, we get on with governing this country under the present Constitution� The present Constitution is preventing us from doing nothing at the moment that we want to do� There is no provision in the present Constitution, perhaps with the exception of the eighth amendment, which we are dealing with, that is impeding the proper governance of this country. All of this projecting on to the Constitution wish lists of socially desirably things is fundamentally mistaken. To give to the Judiciary any function whatsoever in determining the allocation of resources between housing and health is probably one of the most stupid ideas that has ever been canvassed by anybody. The Judiciary is not suited to make those decisions. The members of the Judiciary are incapable of making those decisions. The allocation of resources is the political process and it remains in Leinster House for that function to be carried out� Let us stop all this game playing with the Constitution� Let us get on with governing the State�

28/09/2017J00400Senator James Reilly: In respect of the previous speaker’s points, I am sure he would not wish the Government to fail to promote discussion and debate on many of these issues�

I wish to raise with the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport the public transport sys-tem in north Dublin and the planned electrification of the line down to Balbriggan and on to Drogheda� The growth of population in this corridor has been the fastest and largest in the country as is bourne out in the past number of censuses� It is very clear we have an opportu-nity to put facilities in place before we find ourselves unable to cope. It is in the Government’s capital plan and is due for completion in 2022� I wonder if the Leader could get the Minister to come into the House to tell us what has been done to date, that is whether the design technical work is complete; when will the business plan be finalised; and whether there is an estimated cost and the date for submitting a railway order from An Bord Pleanála�

I wish to raise another issue in respect of the people of Rush, who are very pleased that Irish Water and the Government are putting in new sewage treatment plants to deal with the clear deficit that has been there for decades and that we will see the return of clean beaches and that people can now allow their children build on the small pockets of land around Rush that could not have been developed and also to allow for further housing. There is a major problem in that some of the works have now resulted in the closure of a road between Rush and Skerries and this is providing very difficult. In conjunction with Irish Water, they put in place a shuttle bus service, but I would like to know why Dublin Bus is not bringing the bus to Rush which it used to do historically and turn around down near the health centre� What has really upset people is that there is no shuttle bus to link the Nitelink to Rush and all the people who are working on shift work in Dublin Airport and many other areas now have no means of getting home late at night�

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12 o’clock

Perhaps when the Minister is here he might address that issue also� I hope the Leader will bring him to the House to address these matters�

28/09/2017K00200Senator Paul Gavan: I refer to the motion we received at 7 p�m� yesterday from the Gov-ernment on the eighth report of the Convention on the Constitution� I propose an amendment to the motion as there is something very wrong. The idea that key topics such as the right to housing, disability support services and linguistic and cultural rights should all be referred to the finance committee is quite bizarre, but the idea that we should do so without debate is more than that - it borders on making a mockery of this House. Many Members know that we are only due to sit for two days next week. In that context, surely before the Government side moves the motion, we should have a debate on the issue� This is a debating chamber, is it not? It was the last time I checked. To use a phrase the Leader likes to use, I do not wish to divide the House. If he is willing to grant us time next week to debate the matter, we will not push our amendment to a vote� It is entirely inappropriate to push a motion such a this without debat-ing it. It makes a mockery of the eighth report of the Convention on the Constitution. Senator James Reilly mentioned the importance of debate in the Chamber� Surely, therefore, we can all agree that before the eighth report of the convention is pushed to the finance committee, effec-tively to consider the important matters referred to on a cost basis, we should have a debate on the matter. I ask the Leader to be reasonable and recognise the fact that we have an extra day for debate next week. Will he allow a debate to take place so as not to divide the House on the matter? We disagree fundamentally with the proposition put forward by the Government� It was bordering on cynical to slip it through at 7 p�m� yesterday evening on the basis that it would be considered without debate� If I am wrong, I am sure the Leader will be generous enough to say we can debate the matter next week with the extra time available. It is embarrassing that we are only due to sit for two days next week; therefore, let us take advantage and do what we are being paid to do and debate the matter next week.

28/09/2017K00300Senator James Reilly: There is much more to be embarrassed about than that�

28/09/2017K00400An Cathaoirleach: Senator Paul Gavan will formally propose the amendment when we seek agreement on the Order of Business. I will allow him to do so.

28/09/2017K00500Senator Joan Freeman: I wish to respond to Senator Catherine Noone’s input regarding the fall in suicide rates. The Government should immediately acknowledge that the suicide rates have fallen owing to the efforts of at least 500 charities that have suicide prevention and intervention programmes� The Senator suggested using a new model from Michigan that is supposed to decrease the rates of suicide further, but I wonder if she knows that those aged between 16 and 18 years are not catered for in this country? If a 16-year-old child goes to the emergency department in one of the children’s hospitals, he or she will be turned away as they are deemed to be too old to be seen� If he or she goes an adult hospital in distress, he or she will be turned away as he or she is not regarded as an adult� Where do such children go? Before we think of any model, let us get the HSE’s services to embrace these children, among whom the rate of suicide is the fourth highest in Europe�

28/09/2017K00600Senator Paul Daly: I raise again a matter I mentioned just prior to the recess. It is the very pressing matter of farm safety and farm-related deaths. Unfortunately, last week there were two more fatalities, bringing the total to 17 for the year gone by� As somebody who is very involved in the national ploughing championships, it is telling that on the first day of that event, one of

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the deaths was of Mr� Martin Kehoe, a former ploughing champion� I extend my sympathy to all of the families that have suffered a bereavement through a farm accident, particularly the Kehoe family in County Wexford�

I tried to have the issue of farm safety examined and discussed by the Oireachtas Joint Com-mittee on Agriculture and Food� I was told that it was not possible to discuss it as the Health and Safety Authority, HSA, came within the remit of the Department of Business, Enterprise and Innovation� I do not want to use the phrase too loosely, but on the day I got the impression that we were playing football with such a serious issue which to an extent has been kicked to touch by the agriculture committee as apparently it falls to be discussed by the Minister with responsibility for enterprise and employment. It might be unprecedented, but I ask the Leader to bring both Ministers to the House for a full and frank debate on the matter. We must stop kicking the ball and receive an action plan from both Departments. The HSA may come within the remit of the Department of Business, Enterprise and Innovation, but this is an agricultural matter� It is no longer acceptable to be told on going to one side that we should be at the other� There have been 17 deaths and we have not yet reached 1 October� Something must be done� I have raised the matter on numerous occasions� A previous committee which was chaired by the Cathaoirleach produced a fantastic report that I have read and it included an action plan to promote farm safety. However, it is sitting on a shelf somewhere and no action is being taken.

When the Leader meets the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, I ask him to plead strongly with the Minister to extend the slurry spreading deadline from 15 October� This is related to my last point, as issues such calendar dates and deadlines put farmers under pres-sure� We are all aware of the extremely inclement weather conditions we have had in the past fortnight and three weeks, in particular. They put farmers under pressure to do work that is unsuitable. Slurry spreading must be carried out by 15 October, which increases the risk of ac-cidents and fatalities occurring. Elements such as this could be changed as they are not major milestones. Moving a date on the calendar would eliminate the added risk in farmers having to finish a job by a certain date which they cannot do because of weather conditions.

28/09/2017K00700Senator Niall Ó Donnghaile: Tacáim leis an leasú a chuir an Seanadóir Gavan. It may not necessarily be the appropriate point at which to do so, but I second the amendment proposed to the Order of Business by my colleague, Senator Paul Gavan� He outlined better than I ever could the reasons this debating chamber and we, as parliamentarians and legislators, at the very least should have an expectation that we will have an opportunity to debate and engage on matters raised in the eighth report of the Convention on the Constitution� We might debate the matter if the Leader agrees, but just in case he does not, it is baffling why such a comprehensive report would be referred to the finance committee alone. What is it going to examine the issue of cultural and linguistic rights, for example? There is a much more appropriate committee to which the report should be referred. It should be broken down into the various appropriate ele-ments to be referred to committees� As Senator Paul Gavan rightly pointed out, we are due to sit for only two days next week and we only came back this week. Members of this Chamber rather glibly and in an ill-informed fashion have told Sinn Féin to get back to work in the As-sembly in the North. We need to get back to work properly in this institution. It is not good enough that, as a House of the Oireachtas, we will sit for two days next week after only return-ing this week. People will begin to look rightly with understandable disdain at this Chamber if we continue to operate in that fashion� They will wonder what exactly are we doing�

28/09/2017K00800Senator David Norris: With regard to the proposal that No. 1 be taken without debate, we have just had a Supplementary Order Paper delivered to us which includes an amendment

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tabled by Sinn Féin� In the light of the fact that the amendment will be moved, it seems there should be a discussion on the matter� While I recognise that the Leader has indicated that there is provision for Seanad Éireann to consider the report at a later stage, even so, the tabling of the amendment is a significant factor.

I refer to Statutory Instrument No� 394 of 2017, Education Support Centres (Appointment and Secondment of Directors) Regulations 2017� It was signed by the Minister for Education and Skills on 1 September and can only be discussed within 21 sitting days. In that light, I ask the Leader to urgently make provision for a debate on the regulations in order that proposals may be tabled for their amendment� I have received correspondence from the Drumcondra Ed-ucation Centre and they are very concerned about regulations which seek to limit the tenure of a director to no more than five years. This will have a negative impact on the running of places like the Drumcondra Education Centre. Five years is not sufficient time to allow them to plan for the identification of the local community’s school needs or to devise an appropriate response strategy, including the design and delivery of training and development programmes for teach-ers and the wider school community at local level� Nor is it enough time to build capacity to ensure good governance and effective financial management of the centre, or to manage centre staff to allow them to reach their potential and contribute meaningfully to the development of the centre�

Building and developing networks and sustainable relations and organising continuing pro-fessional development for teachers and education personnel are core to the work of a director so I am looking for a debate on this. I will put down an amendment to change the provision under which a secondment cannot exceed five school years, with a section saying the position of education centre director is a seconded position for leading and managing CPD provision within the Department of Education and Skills CPD framework. Secondment will be for an initial period of five years with the right to reapply for a consecutive further five years.

The Minister for Education and Skills has already granted this principle with regard to teachers because, in reply to a parliamentary question, he said such extensions may apply where a seconded teacher is engaged in a leadership role and has a specialism or expertise where re-tention is necessary for continuity, quality planning and management� He said that the imple-mentation of this policy is a matter for the services concerned and the relevant sections of his Department� The parallel with teachers and the education centre director is very clear and the Minister has stated, on the record, that the reappointment of a director of a public body for a second term is consistent with Government policy applying to public bodies generally�

I ask the Leader to make provision for debate so that this matter can be discussed and the appropriate amendment tabled�

28/09/2017L00200Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill: I wish to raise something that is connected to debate in gen-eral� We are a House that debates issues and airs our views freely on behalf of our electorate and the public. We are all democrats and I was alarmed this week to learn that, for the second time in a week, a democratic meeting in a Dublin hotel premises, being held by two women who are survivors of rape, was cancelled because a mob calling themselves, and disguised as, liberals berated the hotel with all sorts of messages and closed down freedom of expression and freedom of speech. We live in a democracy and a major issue will be facing the electorate in a referendum next May or June, according to the Taoiseach� The referendum should go before the people in a manner that is acceptable to everyone� The debate should be considered, all views need to be taken into consideration and no one’s opinion should be greater than another’s.

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Unfortunately, freedom of speech and expression is being blocked by a tiny minority in soci-ety� The population of Ireland is losing out as a large number of people will not get to hear the opinions as a result�

We fought for democracy and freedom of speech is enshrined in our Constitution under Article 40�6�1°� Stalin was in favour of freedom of speech but only if he agreed with the views being expressed� Is that where we are going? If people on both sides of any argument, includ-ing on the eight amendment, are really in favour of freedom of speech they have to tolerate the argument they despise - otherwise they are not in favour of freedom of speech� It galls me that a tiny mob in our society here in Dublin is blocking freedom of expression and freedom of opinion to the extent that these women, who are survivors of rape, have to hold a public demon-stration outside a hotel in a dark car park tonight because the hotel they had booked is refusing to host them� That is not the sort of society we should be promoting and they are not the values any democracy should stand for� If we are going to have a debate on any issue, including the eighth amendment, let us hear all the views equally�

28/09/2017L00300Senator Aidan Davitt: I concur with what Senator Paul Gavan said� A couple of issues have passed through the House but not been discussed� I would not agree with all the points about it but it certainly needs to be discussed�

The Minister for Finance and Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Paschal Donohoe, has, from time to time, floated in the papers some ideas about VAT rates for small restaurants and hotels and he is doing the same again today. There has been talk that he is con-sidering upping the rate from 9% to 10% or 12% but I have serious concerns with this� This is a sector that has been a really great story for the Government, which has had great success in the way it has handled it� There are some problems and some hotels will not be happy until they eat the goose that lays the golden egg with their prices, and there are some rogue hotels in this regard. This is very evident in the reduction in numbers from Britain. There have been fluctua-tions in the currency and Brexit, among other things, has had an effect but the pricing of hotel rooms is a major factor. I call on the Leader to talk to the Minister about this. The Restaurants Association of Ireland has professionally costed a 1% rise from 9% to 10% and learned that it would cost 6,000 jobs - a substantial number. If rogue hotels are overcharging, the Minister could tackle this in better ways than upping the VAT rate.

28/09/2017L00400Senator Máire Devine: I support Senator Freeman’s call in respect of 16-18 year olds in our mental health service with nowhere to go� Any initiative is welcome but we need to solidify things for those young people. I wish to talk about rights and equality for the disabled. Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil are trying to outdo each other with promises of tax cuts prior to the budget but they need to realise that they will take from the over 600,000 people in this country who have a disability� There is education, travel and all aspects of life but I wish to concentrate on housing adaptation grants� This morning, Sinn Féin launched plans for an extra €30 million - a 50% increase - for grant schemes� Some 1,200 people under the age of 65 are inappropriately placed in nursing homes and last year an 18 year old, who had a tragic accident and was left in a wheelchair, had to go to a nursing home because there was no adaptation. I ask Members to imagine that 18 year old, looking at his future from a nursing home bed. This is a human rights issue. We will hopefully dust down the Assisted Decision-Making (Capacity) Act 2015. Where is it at this point? Does an 18 year old have consent if he is sent somewhere when there is nowhere else for him to go? Home is where the heart lives and these people need to be there� We need to think about our 50% increase in the budget for adaptation grants as it is prudent, cost-effective and will respect people with disability and give them a full life to look forward to.

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28/09/2017M00100An Cathaoirleach: I wish to acknowledge the presence in the Gallery of former Senator, Michael Mullins. Tá fáilte romhat. It is nice to see former Members coming back here.

(Interruptions).

28/09/2017M00300An Cathaoirleach: The former Senator is always welcome. I call Senator Rónán Mullen.

28/09/2017M00400Senator Rónán Mullen: I would also like to welcome the family connection in the Gallery.

I second and thank Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill for what he said this morning. I met the very fine people that are in a group, Unbroken, this morning. All of them have a personal story to tell that connects in with the horror of rape and the very difficult subject of abortion. To think that people who generously give of their time and courageously tell their story, which is not an easy thing to do, would be denied the opportunity of doing so in a public space, like a hotel, be-cause of highly manipulative and abusive campaigning behind the scenes to deprive them of a platform is horrific. The situation does connect in with a wider problem in western society, and it happens here in Ireland� I refer to the tendency to give no platform to people one disagrees with. I happen to know that the Gibson Hotel, the Spencer Hotel and I think, in the context of another gathering that touched on the abortion issue from a pro-life perspective, the Ashling Hotel, have all found themselves cancelling events and denying space in recent days to groups� I do not think any of those groups were in the business of saying or doing anything disruptive. They were telling their truth, as they see it, according to the facts as they have them�

I intend to take this matter further. I will try to talk to people of goodwill, who may or may not agree with my point of view on these issues, to see can we draw attention to the danger of free speech and respectful debate that does exist when something like this happens. I person-ally feel that the media is lacking. If the shoe were on the other foot and the media was on a different side of the argument this situation would be all over the Joe Duffy show� Whether I am right or wrong on that aspect, I ask people who disagree with me to at least join with me in saying that people must be allowed access to public space. Campaigns of this kind, that are designed to deprive people of a platform, pressurising hotel managers using social media, and perhaps telling untruths about the groups that propose to meet, are utterly unhelpful and is not going to be good for our society�

I will briefly outline what I came here to say today. There is something tragic about the fall from grace by Aung San Suu Kyi� Even more tragic is the plight of the Rohingya Muslims and the horrors that have taken place. In Myanmar, some 400,000 Rohingya Muslims have fled. We have heard stories of soldiers raping women, decapitating children and setting whole vil-lages ablaze� Ms Aung San Suu Kyi was a hero of democracy and in many ways is still the best hope for democracy in that country� She has found herself unable to stand up to the military to the point of being disingenuous� She has condemned human rights abuses in general but failed to talk about the specifics. It is a tragedy for her and it is a tragedy for Myanmar. The Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade has spoken on this issue. It is of such importance that we should debate it in this House� I hope that a debate can be arranged in early course with the Minister attending�

28/09/2017M00500Senator Fintan Warfield: I will begin by referencing the ridiculous comparison drawn by Senator McDowell between gambling and alcohol with voting� One has a negative impact while the other has a positive impact�

I rise today to say that we need a national AIDS memorial. Today, HIV Ireland marks its

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30th anniversary� Since 1987, the organisation has championed sex education and focused on improving services and conditions for people who live with HIV and their caregivers� HIV Ireland held a conference this morning that was attended by the Minister of State, Deputy Cath-erine Byrne� At the event the organisation called for a national AIDS memorial to be created� As many as 35 million people have died from AIDS worldwide and, tragically, people are still dying of AIDS� As many as 8,000 in Ireland have been diagnosed with the disease since the early 1980s. Although treatment has improved a significant stigma remains around being HIV positive�

Ireland should joined regions like New York city and Toronto that have created beautiful visual memorials� We should create a memorial to maintain and preserve our heritage� Let us end the stigma in Ireland and live in a healthier present and be at peace. I ask that we move forward towards a consultation process where we do all we can to encourage a conversation in civil society and achieve these goals in the next five or so years. I ask the Leader to support my request for a debate in this Chamber with the Minister of State present� Such a debate would allow progress to be made� It would recognise the lives lost and the grief and sorrow of those left behind� It would also allow us to combat the present stigma and discrimination�

28/09/2017M00600Senator Paul Gavan: Well said�

28/09/2017M00700An Cathaoirleach: That concludes the speakers. Before I call on the Leader to respond I must say that a number of speakers have raised the motion that has been proposed here today by Senator Jerry Buttimer and is listed on a supplementary Order Paper�

(Interruptions).

28/09/2017M00900An Cathaoirleach: Ciúnas, le do thoil� I usually do not say a lot from the Chair but I was interrupted when I tried to make a point. I have been asked to abridge the normal four days that are allowed for a motion to be put in place here� I have been given no reasons as to why I should so abridge one way or another� There may be good and serious reasons why the Gov-ernment is anxious that the motion is taken today, without debate. There is counter proposal. While the Leader is deliberating about a response he might consider the impact of such a move� He might also consider the fact that we will have 30 minutes or a little more of a sos between 12�45 p�m� and 1�15 p�m� for the next item� I am not sure if it is possible to facilitate the people who have sought a debate. As of now, I think it is unfair for the Cathaoirleach to be asked to abridge the normal time. Most days, day in and day out, I do not normally object. However, as Cathaoirleach, I must take objections, if any, into account. I am not sure why the motion is so urgent� I understand that the report has existed for three years� If there is urgency then I should be appraised of same� I say so not to in any way to disparage the Leader or the Government side. At least three Sinn Féin Senators have objected as has, to some extent, Senator McDowell.

28/09/2017M01000Senator David Norris: And me�

28/09/2017M01100An Cathaoirleach: And Senator Norris. The objections should be taken on board. I have been asked to abridge. If I were a judge and asked to grant or not grant bail then one would be given a reason. I am totally in the dark as to why the motion is so urgent after the report has languished on a bench for three years. That is a personal observation. I normally do not make observations but I feel I have to in this instance�

28/09/2017M01200Senator David Norris: Good man�

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28/09/2017M01300Senator Paul Gavan: Well said�

28/09/2017M01400An Cathaoirleach: I must also protect my impartiality� I have made my observation irre-spective of who voiced objections. The Leader does not have to answer now but I simply ask him to reflect. Maybe there are very good reasons. I have not personally challenged the Leader. He is doing a good job in the circumstances.

28/09/2017M01500Senator Jerry Buttimer: I will commence by welcoming my friend and former Senator and colleague, Michael Mullins, to the House. He looks well post-life in the Seanad and it was good to meet him last night�

In terms of the motion, the Government requested that the motion be included in the Order Paper for today� I was certainly not aware of the abridging of the four day rule� I am happy to submit the motion again next week and not inconvenience the Cathaoirleach but it was agreed in the Dáil� There is a certain hypocrisy with Members of this House coming in here and ques-tioning the motivation behind the motion� Have the Senators read the report and motion? I challenge Senator Gavan to read the last line of the motion that indicates it will come back to this House to be debated again. He used the word “generous” in his remarks.

28/09/2017M01600Senator Paul Gavan: The Government proposes to send it to the wrong committee and that is the point�

28/09/2017M01700Senator Jerry Buttimer: I did not interrupt the Senator�

28/09/2017M01800Senator Paul Gavan: No�

28/09/2017M01900Senator Jerry Buttimer: Please allow me to continue�

28/09/2017M02000Senator Paul Gavan: The Leader has missed the point�

28/09/2017M02100Senator Jerry Buttimer: No, I have not missed the point� I am not grandstanding and merely reading out a script from headquarters�

28/09/2017M02200Senator Niall Ó Donnghaile: Speaking of script, where did the Leader read that view?

28/09/2017M02300Senator Paul Gavan: The Leader is struggling this morning�

28/09/2017M02400Senator Jerry Buttimer: I am not struggling at all� Not a bit�

28/09/2017M02500Senator Paul Gavan: It sounds like it.

28/09/2017M02600Senator Jerry Buttimer: The motion will come back after the committee debates it.

28/09/2017M02700Senator Paul Gavan: Where does it come back from?

28/09/2017M02800Senator Jerry Buttimer: From the committee�

28/09/2017M02900Senator Paul Gavan: Which committee?

28/09/2017M03000Senator Jerry Buttimer: As directed by the motion�

28/09/2017M03100Senator Paul Gavan: Which committee?

28/09/2017M03200Senator Jerry Buttimer: Read it�

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28/09/2017M03300Senator Paul Gavan: Exactly�

28/09/2017M03400Senator Jerry Buttimer: The point is-----

28/09/2017M03500Senator Máire Devine: The motion is being sent to the wrong committee�

28/09/2017M03600Senator Jerry Buttimer: -----I am happy to withdraw the motion and resubmit it again next week rather than-----

28/09/2017M03700Senator Máire Devine: And have more debate�

28/09/2017M03800Senator Jerry Buttimer: No� I am happy to resubmit the motion rather then inconve-nience the Cathaoirleach�

28/09/2017M03900An Cathaoirleach: It is not an inconvenience for me. I have been asked to abridge. Under Standing Orders it normally takes four days but I have got 12 hours notice. Normally I accede to these requests but when there is an objection, irrespective of from what party or Senator it comes, I must bear in mind why there is a rush. If I knew the reason for it, it might make my decision easier�

28/09/2017N00200Senator David Norris: On a point of order, could the Cathaoirleach indicate to the Leader that there is not much point in bringing it back next week if it is to be taken then without debate. The point of the amendment is to get a discussion�

28/09/2017N00300Senator Jerry Buttimer: It is going to the committee but I will withdraw the motion on the basis that I do not want to infringe the rules regarding time length-----

28/09/2017N00400Senator David Norris: We will have to have a discussion next week on the amendment.

28/09/2017N00500Senator Jerry Buttimer: I will withdraw the motion at the end of the Order of Business�

28/09/2017N00600An Cathaoirleach: I thank the Senator. That makes my decision much easier.

28/09/2017N00700Senator Jerry Buttimer: I do not want to in any way discommode the Cathaoirleach or put him in a difficult position. He knows I do not do so as Leader and we work quite well together and he is independent in the House�

Senators Ardagh, Humphreys and Reilly raised the issue of transport and the pending rail strike. It is important that both sides re-engage in discussions. As Senators know quite well, the Workplace Relations Commission or the Labour Court are the appropriate fora. No Mem-ber wants members of the travelling public discommoded or staff out of work. It is important that there be a continuation of talks and a resolution to the issue. There are varying viewpoints regarding the pay offer made by Iarnród Éireann and the workers’ unions have a different viewpoint to that of management but it is about people and the future of Iarnród Éireann. The Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Ross, will not be found wanting and never has been. He is a very good Minister, as Senator Humphreys knows quite well,-----

28/09/2017N00800Senator Kevin Humphreys: I do not know that.

28/09/2017N00900Senator Jerry Buttimer: -----and is very competent and capable� I am happy for him to come to the House to discuss a variety of transport issues as Senator Reilly asked.

Senator Ardagh raised the issue of respite care and struck a very important note with which

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I completely agree� In the forthcoming budget it is absolutely important that the emerging fruits of the economy are spent on people in a way that has tangible benefits and, in particular, for carers, whether family members or paid carers, and also those who require respite care, as mentioned by the Senator. There is an absolute need for further investment in that area. I know from discussions with the Minister for Health, Deputy Harris, that the issue of older people is being considered in the context of the budget because it is important, as Senator Murnane-O’Connor rightly said, that we acknowledge the contribution that senior citizens have made to society and the community. All Members know people in respite care or in need of home care and who have needs that are not currently being met� We must ensure that the moneys we have in an economy that is now growing is spent wisely and prudently on people� The point that is being made and should be made is that now, if one looks at what the Government has done in terms of budgets in recent years, is that the Oireachtas, without the support of the Seanad be-cause Members of the Opposition did not support Senators being included on the Committee on the Future of Healthcare, has a long-term vision for health and investment in it� It is important to note that all ESRI reports reference the demand on our health service� The former Minister for Health, Senator Reilly, was very clear in his approach about people being treated at home, living longer at home in their own environment and it is important that we address that� It is equally important that strategies and plans are put in place in terms of the carer and respite care aspects of health care� Senator Devine referenced disability and it is also important that we spend money in that area�

Senator Boyhan raised the issue of the National Rehabilitation Hospital in Dún Laoghaire, as has Senator Hopkins in the past. I would be happy for the Minister to come to the House to address that issue� I cannot give Senator Boyhan an answer on the issue of beds in that hospital but the point he raises regarding rehabilitation and a national rehabilitation plan needs to be actively pursued�

I am not sure if Senator Conway-Walsh wants me to bring the Minister of State at the De-partment of Finance, Deputy O’Donovan, back to the House. I would be happy to do so.

28/09/2017N01000Senator Paul Gavan: The Leader should bring him back.

28/09/2017N01100Senator Rose Conway-Walsh: I look forward to it.

28/09/2017N01200Senator Jerry Buttimer: One very true thing he said yesterday was that if one criticises Sinn Féin on any issue, there is a chorus of disapproval� It is a one-dimensional approach to everything�

(Interruptions).

28/09/2017N01400Senator Rose Conway-Walsh: Talk about immaturity.

28/09/2017N01500Senator Jerry Buttimer: Members of Sinn Féin have criticised its new suitor, Deputy Mi-cheál Martin. The love-in did not last very long and is a bit fragile. Relationships are rocky and Sinn Féin’s loving up to Fianna Fáil is like a slow candle burning and will take time but------

(Interruptions).

28/09/2017N01700Senator Niall Ó Donnghaile: Is the Leader feeling a bit cranky?

28/09/2017N01800Senator Jerry Buttimer: I am in great form� Members of Sinn Féin are a little sensitive about being in government but that party’s future leader, who is nearly being anointed, is seek-

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ing to go into government. Members of Sinn Féin should also look after those next to them. The new alliance-----

(Interruptions).

28/09/2017N02000Senator Jerry Buttimer: Whether it is the greenway or the rail tracks, it is a bit rocky but being in government involves responsibility and making decisions, about which Sinn Féin members need to learn�

28/09/2017N02100An Cathaoirleach: If the Leader keeps meandering, he will go off the tracks.

28/09/2017N02200Senator Rose Conway-Walsh: The chemistry is not right�

28/09/2017N02300An Cathaoirleach: Senators should allow the Leader to finish. He is very anxious to do so.

28/09/2017N02400Senator Jerry Buttimer: One can work on chemistry.

28/09/2017N02500Senator Rose Conway-Walsh: One cannot�

28/09/2017N02600Senator Jerry Buttimer: On a serious note, all Members agree that investment is required in respect of people with disabilities, whether in terms of housing adaptation, as Senator Devine referenced, jobs or education.

Senators Ruane and Noone made reference to the issue of image, photoshopping, young people’s self esteem and magazines that present perfect people. As Members know, that plays on people’s minds and the Senators are right to raise the issue. Senator Warfield referenced young people’s issues yesterday and today� It is important that there be a debate in the House on youth services, young people and issues that affect them because those will be huge issues for society. If one looks at what is happening on Instagram, Snapchat, Facebook and Twitter - the latter to a lesser degree because young people do not use it as much, although I may be in trouble for saying that - both Senators are correct that it is a huge issue that requires discussion and an action plan because it has an effect on of how people see themselves� I welcome Sena-tor Freeman back to the House. She is working in this area, to which I will return. I would be happy to have that debate� It is urgently required�

Senator Ruane also referenced the issue of access to education� I am a former director of education, and spoke last week at the third UNESCO international conference on learning cities which took place in Cork city and was attended by delegates from over 80 countries. I am aware of the importance of returning to education or empowering people to go out to the workplace and better themselves and get a job. I do not have the details the Senator mentioned but if they are given to me, I will pass them to the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection, Deputy Regina Doherty, because people must be allowed to be progress� The issue raised by the Senator is disappointing and I would be happy to pursue it for her�

Senator Noone also made reference to the issue of mental health and Senators Freeman and Devine referenced the issue of 16 to 18 year olds not being catered for� A Seanad Public Con-sultation Committee report is soon due on the issue of mental health� All Senators will agree there are many factors, including the good work being done by the charitable sector, including Pieta House, in the area of mental health and suicide� It is important that we invest and try to prevent the tragic deaths of young people in our communities� I would be happy to have a de-bate on that issue when the report is completed�

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Senator Murnane-O’Connor spoke on promoting Positive Ageing Week and that it is impor-tant the budget be a fair one that reflects the needs of our older citizens. I am sure the Minister for Finance, Deputy Donohoe, will do that in his budget speech�

Senator McDowell made a very eloquent address on constitutional reform� There is no one view on that issue. The Senator has expressed his. I am happy that he will park Seanad reform and will not put it to another constitutional referendum�

28/09/2017N02700Senator David Norris: There should be a constitutional referendum on it� It is a really radical way to deal with the situation�

28/09/2017N02800Senator Jerry Buttimer: It is equally important that Members understand that the Consti-tution is open to change by the will of the people. If our Constitution does not reflect a modern society, then we would not, for example, have passed marriage equality and we would still have people being treated as less equal than others in our Constitution� In saying that, Senator McDowell is right that there are referenda that can be held that are meaningless and pointless, and that will be the debate we will have on the different propositions being put to the people� I do not think we can be afraid to amend the Constitution if we think it needs to be amended, but that is a debate we can have� I welcome that the Senator does not want another referendum on Seanad reform�

28/09/2017O00200Senator David Norris: I do�

28/09/2017O00300Senator Jerry Buttimer: The point the Senator makes is one that we need to have a con-versation about with regard to the number of referenda we hold and when� The Taoiseach has outlined his views on that�

Senator Reilly referred to transport� I would be happy to invite the Minister, Deputy Ross, to the House� The Senator also referred to Irish Water and the new sewage treatment plant in Rush� It shows the importance of Irish Water for investment, cleaning up our waterways and ensuring that we have clean drinking water and a fit for purpose infrastructure.

I referred to Senator Gavan’s amendment� I am going to withdraw the Government motion and bring it back next week. In regard to the number of days we sit, we have a group meeting every Wednesday and we had a discussion yesterday� I will sit for as long as we can every day if we have to but-----

28/09/2017O00400Senator Paul Gavan: Will Senator Buttimer give us time to debate this motion?

28/09/2017O00500Senator Jerry Buttimer: It is a question of how we do our business� If the Senator is unhappy, he can come to our meeting, as he does, to be fair to him, and we will have that dis-cussion there�

I will invite the Minister of State, Deputy Daly, to the House to address Senator Freeman’s concerns�

I fully agree with Senator Paul Daly� There is a need for responsibility in the area of farm safety and it is not acceptable that it is allowed to be passed between A and B� There were 17 tragic deaths, leaving families in mourning following the loss of a loved one. I join with the Senator in paying tribute to and sympathising with the family of Martin Kehoe who was a re-nowned international ploughsman. The point the Senator makes is that this is a very serious issue� Senator Conway was rapporteur in the last Seanad on farm safety� I would be very happy

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to have that debate again in the House� We need to have it and I will invite both Ministers to address it� It is critical because it is about saving lives by preventing accidents, whether among young or old people. We need to keep that at the forefront of people’s minds.

I forgot to mention the baby-friendly health initiative� I would be happy to try to arrange that meeting with the Minister, Deputy Harris, if he is the relevant Minister and it is not one of the Ministers of State, Deputy Catherine Byrne or Deputy Daly. I would be happy to talk to Senator Kevin Humphreys about that afterwards�

Senator Ó Donnghaile spoke about the amendment to the Order of Business. It is a bit rich when one sees members of the Sinn Féin Party not taking their seats in Westminster and not being in the Chamber in Stormont for 29 weeks. It is easy to come in here, get a headline and make cheap comments.

28/09/2017O00600Senator Niall Ó Donnghaile: Down here?

28/09/2017O00700Senator Jerry Buttimer: Our work as Members of this House is not just about being here, as the Senator knows. It ill behoves all of us to come in here and to run ourselves down. There are enough people trying to do that anyway without us doing it� If the Senator has a construc-tive proposal about how we do our business, I am very happy to take it on board and will gladly meet the Senator to discuss it�

28/09/2017O00800Senator Niall Ó Donnghaile: We can debate that next week. That is my proposal.

28/09/2017O00900Senator Jerry Buttimer: Senators Ó Domhnaill and Mullen raised the right to assemble or have freedom of speech� I cannot answer for the hotels where the events have been cancelled� It is disappointing that people are prevented from holding meetings for a variety of reasons� Senator Ó Domhnaill raised the issues of the eighth amendment and of rape, which is a very sensitive matter that we must handle by working with the victims of rape in a very caring and sensitive manner� I am all for freedom of speech and assembly and I cannot answer for the hotels� In our own case, as a political party, a hotel cancelled an event that we were having� That is part of the life we live, unfortunately� Senator Mullen said that there is a need to have a respectful debate on any issue to allow for different viewpoints, in particular on the issue of the eighth amendment, which he referenced� That is about the language we use and the way we present arguments� That applies to all sides, whether in committee meetings, on the airwaves, in this Chamber or at public meetings�

On the point made by Senators Ruane and Noone about young people and magazines, it is equally important that we behave in a respectful manner on social media and do not drive people away from debate and encourage them to be involved in debate� Young people turn off in debates because of the language that is used� We should have that debate in a respectful, tolerant manner�

To reply to Senator Davitt, the VAT rate is one that the previous Government introduced to act as a catalyst to get the economy moving� The Restaurants Association of Ireland, RAI, has a lobby day today in advance of the budget. We should reflect upon the value of the 9% rate in the context of a post-Brexit scenario where we have seen a decline in tourists from the UK� What would happen if we got rid of or amended the 9% rate? Those involved in the hospitality sector also have a duty with regard to pricing, whether accommodation or menu prices. I think Senator Davitt will agree that he has seen an increase in prices of hotel rooms and menus and one wonders where the 9% VAT rate is going or who it is going to� We will have that debate in

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advance of the budget. I am confident that the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, will be prudent in his approach to the budget and I personally would like to see the VAT rate kept.

Senator Devine raised the issues of mental health and disability� We should invest� We must recognise that there is not a pot of gold under the rainbow-----

28/09/2017O01000Senator Fintan Warfield: There could be�

28/09/2017O01100Senator Jerry Buttimer: -----that is going to take us from here to the moon and back. We only have a certain amount of money and we must spend it in a way that does not bring us back to the bad old days of the past�

Senator Mullen also referred to Aung San Suu Kyi and he has made a very good point that she needs to show leadership� The world stood with her and recognised her importance� The Senator is right that she is probably the best hope that we have� I would be happy to invite the Minister, Deputy Coveney, to address that issue�

I join with Senator Warfield in welcoming the debate on and the need for a national AIDS memorial. We all know too many friends who passed away in those circumstances. Those peo-ple should not be forgotten. The Senator referred to New York and Toronto. I would be happy to join him and other Senators in any way we can to bring that memorial forward. The increase in the number of people with HIV and AIDS in our country is a concern� The former Minister for Health, now Taoiseach, Deputy Leo Varadkar, was about to engage in a whole strategy re-launch for the national AIDS strategy and I hope that we can do that� Today is a poignant day and we congratulate those involved for the work they do to prevent HIV and to educate people.

I withdraw the Government amendment on the Order Paper and we will resubmit it next week.

28/09/2017O01200Senator David Norris: I ask the Leader to address the issue I raised of regulation.

28/09/2017O01300Senator Jerry Buttimer: I beg the Senator’s pardon� I saw the correspondence that I received from Drumcondra� I would be happy to facilitate that debate� The Minister, Deputy Bruton, will be in the House next week.

28/09/2017O01400Senator David Norris: Could we do it then?

28/09/2017O01500Senator Jerry Buttimer: I will try to have it done next week.

28/09/2017O01600Senator David Norris: I thank Senator Buttimer.

28/09/2017O01700An Cathaoirleach: The Leader has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business, “That No. 1 not be taken today.” Is that agreed? Agreed.

In case the issue of debate arises, it will be a matter for whoever chairs next Tuesday or whenever it is. I cannot decide to pre-empt that. I appreciate the significant gesture from the Leader to defer that matter� I honestly believe that the requisite time set out in Standing Orders of note should be adhered to. It makes things less suspicious than if one gets something the night before which is said to be extremely urgent but has been there for several years�

28/09/2017O01800Senator David Norris: Exactly�

28/09/2017O01900An Cathaoirleach: I have made my point�

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Order of Business, as amended, agreed to�

Sitting suspended at 12.50 p.m. and resumed at 1.15 p.m.

28/09/2017R00100Message from Dáil

28/09/2017R00200Acting Chairman (Senator John O’Mahony): Dáil Éireann has agreed, on this 26th day of September 2017, to the amendment made by Seanad Éireann to the Mediation Bill 2017�

28/09/2017R00300Business of Seanad

28/09/2017R00400Senator Jerry Buttimer: I propose that we suspend until the voting block in the Dáil con-cludes� The Minister, Deputy Murphy, is in the House� I apologise to Members� It is unfair to this House that Ministers are being tied up in a voting block. I hope we can change this situa-tion�

28/09/2017R00500Acting Chairman (Senator John O’Mahony): Is that agreed? Agreed�

Sitting suspended at 1.18 p.m. and resumed at 2 p.m.

28/09/2017W00100Housing: Statements

28/09/2017W00200An Cathaoirleach: I welcome the Minister to the House�

28/09/2017W00300Senator Jennifer Murnane O’Connor: This is my second time to address the Minister today. I know how hard he works and it is important that we all work together to ensure home-lessness can be sorted� It is a year since the Government launched its Rebuilding Ireland: Ac-tion Plan for Housing and Homelessness. Recent trends include the lack of progress on new social housing construction, continued rent inflation, reduced rental supply and house price inflation in 2017. The figures in the Government’s social housing construction report suggest fewer than 800 new social homes will be constructed in 2017, when the action plan targets 5,000� Only 24% of housing units in the construction pipeline are actually on site, meaning it will be 2021 before the full total of 10,072 units come on-stream� This compares with targets, which are, frankly, too low, of 26,000 new units by 2021.

The Government strategy is to rely almost exclusively on the private rental market to pro-vide all social housing through the housing assistance payment, HAP, and rent supplement� I addressed this with the Minister this morning� I have massive concerns about this� Of course, the very negative downside to this strategy is that no new housing stock is being added and that existing housing stock is being taken from the private rental and owner-occupier markets.

In terms of total housing supply, Ireland now needs to build 40,000 to 50,000 new homes per year to make a dent on the increased demands and make a noticeable impact on affordabil-ity. Clearly there is a market failure in housing and new interventions are required to stimulate supply, but the Government seems reluctant to make any interventions in the housing market and seems to be determined to stick to its message that all will be well by 2019, when it expects the output of new housing to reach 20,000 units� This attitude has to change if the real chal-lenges are to be tackled.

The number of families and children living in emergency accommodation continues to rise� Meanwhile rents continue to rise at a dramatic rate. While house prices are rising quickly, they are still 40% below their 2007 peak, whereas rental prices have long surpassed their peak,

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with average rents now more than 12% above 2008 levels� The rent pressure zones should be nationwide� All local authorities should have them� The emergency housing crisis needs to be addressed� With regard to the cap to qualify for local authority housing, if people do not get on the housing list they either need to get support through a mortgage from the local authority or be able to go to their local credit union and get a loan� We need to ensure people do not fall between the local authority housing lists and paying private rent every month of up to €1,000 or €1,500, which they just cannot afford.

I want to ask the Minister about NAMA. What is the status of NAMA? I do not know and I hear different things� Is it holding on to properties and sites and not releasing them for social housing? Can we have a full update on what exactly is happening with NAMA? I would ap-preciate it�

I urge fast action. The current social housing policy needs to be changed. We need to look at why it is not working. We need common sense, decisions and plans. I and my Fianna Fáil party colleagues urge a sense of urgency� Many times over, barriers have been placed to hous-ing the most vulnerable in our country and these barriers need to be removed� We have empty houses, delays and long waiting lists� Years pass and people’s lives change, as do their needs� These barriers become our enemies because of this timescale� People are waiting and waiting� It is like an enemy. I often say that plans are great but that by the time we get to their fruition more problems exist� We have a homelessness crisis and our biggest enemy is time� Nobody needs to die on our streets and we need to work together fast to ensure it does not happen again. We need to deliver positive outcomes for people and we need to do it now and not down the road. We have committee meetings every week and I know from working with various Depart-ments there will be change, but slow change� The people unable to qualify for local authority housing lists are crying out for help and I do not think they receive it. I ask the Minister to ensure everybody is entitled to a home and that we give the people of Ireland a chance to ensure they have a home they deserve�

28/09/2017W00400Senator Michael McDowell: There are many different factors in the housing shortage and homelessness issue confronting us at present, but one I want to particularly emphasise is one which I do not see echoed anywhere in any of the Government statements thus far, and I hope it will be looked on and some attention given to it.

One of the major problems we face is housing and rebuilding the city of Dublin. That is where the major problems exist. People will say I am taking a Dublin-centred view of the matter but homelessness and the pressure on rents, land values and the like in Dublin are probably the most acute in the country� The Ballymun regeneration plan was not a success� It was an exer-cise in town planning by Dublin City Council which has not succeeded� Although the problems in old Ballymun such as they were have been addressed to some extent, Ballymun is not now functioning as a new quarter in which to live in Dublin successfully� Retail units are boarded up. It is not working. The message I took from that is that it is all very well for Dublin City Council to look at its own estate, for instance, Charlemont Street, Dolphin House, O’Devaney Gardens or other places, and say that they can be redeveloped and that it has plans for them� It is all very well to do that, but concentrating only on publicly owned lands and decaying public housing projects is not the answer to getting Dublin to function as a city. We need a body - I believe Dublin City Council cannot do it for various reasons to which I will return - the job of which will be to regenerate the entire city of Dublin, to look at entire blocks, precincts, neigh-bourhoods, places where there is dereliction and places where the density in housing is far too low and to come up with plans such as the wide street commissioners did in the 18th century

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to plan out new streets, new developments and plan for the social infrastructure that is in place� That is what is needed now� We have the schools, theatres, shopping precincts and all the rest of it in Dublin, yet I saw in one of today’s newspapers a major development by the Hines com-pany planned for Cherrywood� It is building a whole new town with hundreds upon hundreds of apartments, which it will keep under its control, running to thousands of dwellings. That is all very well but where we need regeneration is in the city� Putting people out in Abbottstown or at the end of the Luas line is not the way to rebuild Dublin�

The second point I want to make is that private property rights under the Constitution are no barrier whatsoever to the kind of thing I am talking about. The third point I want to make is that no decent city such as Paris or wherever was ever built entirely by leaving it to market forces. I have no problem with the Government looking at the land that is most easily available and going for the low hanging fruit in the midst of a crisis, going for lands like the Glass Bottle Company site and for space that seems to be derelict, but if we want to address the problems of Dublin as a city, we need an urban regeneration body for Dublin� We need a process whereby people can be compulsorily bought out and entire parts of Dublin city can be redeveloped to a different standard and to different models�

I will return to the point of why Ballymun regeneration was such a failure� Dublin City Council had all the powers, owned all the land, had all the opportunity to rebuild a success-ful suburb in Dublin. It is depressing to look at how much of a failure it was. I have always been sceptical about Dublin City Council’s capacity to plan anything� We should remember that Charlemont Street flats, which Senator Humphreys and the Minister visited the other day, were built in my lifetime and they are being knocked down now. Who were the geniuses who put them up to knock them down? I believe I am younger than Dolphin House but not much younger than it. Those were all built within two generations and they are all being knocked down now. Dublin City Council’s own head office is a monument to appalling planning. Bal-lymun is a monument to its failure� We need something other than Dublin City Council to plan and implement a regeneration of Dublin city�

It is important for the development of this country that Dublin should be regenerated at its heart� If we want the IFSC to function properly as a capital city and to bring in people to live in Dublin, we cannot have a situation where a person who is contemplating coming to Dublin to live has to fork out €1 million for a fairly modest house close to their place of work. The success of this country depends on somebody with a vision taking a look at Dublin and saying this is how the city will be developed over the next ten, 15, 20 or 30 years� That is not being done, and will not be done�

The Minister correctly called in all the city managers and asked them for progress reports. I hope he laid down the law to them in private, namely, that they had to do more� They engage in the usually bellyache that they have no resources� Resources are not the problem� The re-sources will come� If we have a regeneration body which can parcel out land and give building leases, the resources are not the problem� Resources, for instance, were not the problem in Charlemont Street where the Minister visited recently� Resources will come and society has to decide whether it will have X% or Y% of new developments, social and affordable hous-ing or purely social housing� Those are resource issues but they are not the reason nothing is happening, and they are certainly not the reason so much of Dublin is run down, derelict and under-developed. The one body whose job it was to make sure that did not happen is Dublin City Council� It is ironic that it is the owners of all the worst areas in the city and that they are the people whose plans and developments in the past have been the shortest in terms of their

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duration and the worst in terms of their social outcome�

28/09/2017X00200Senator Paudie Coffey: I welcome the Minister and his officials to the House for this important debate. I wish to make a point of order for the record. There were a number of false starts to this afternoon’s debate. I know the Minister was tied up in the Dáil, but it would be helpful if the Opposition would provide a pairing for the Minister who is due to take debates in the Seanad and allow us to get on with the business of the day�

28/09/2017X00300Senator David Norris: Hear, hear. It would make good sense.

28/09/2017X00400Senator Paudie Coffey: We are all agreed that we need to find urgent solutions to the housing challenge that we face but they need to be sustainable� I listened with interest to Sena-tor McDowell’s contribution which was Dublin centric� There are many housing issues right around the country, but they are most concentrated in the largest urban area� I have often com-pared Dublin to an economic vortex where a great deal of the activity in economic terms is hap-pening, and that is rightly so as our capital, but it needs to happen in a planned and sustainable way. I hold out great hope for the new national planning framework 2040, which the Minister is due to announce shortly� It is my hope that the vision in that plan can be implemented in a sustainable way that will allow Dublin to develop to accommodate the needs of our people into the future and that it will also allow for other regional centres to drive the regional economies�

On the planning issues Senator McDowell mentioned, I certainly would be in favour of more high rise appropriate developments in appropriate locations in Dublin, not in the Georgian quarter but there are areas in Dublin where high rise developments would be acceptable and the Minister and his officials should consider where there is sustainable development and where the services already exist� Interventions could be made immediately in that respect�

The housing crisis needs the collaboration of many stakeholders. I do not need to tell the Minister that. It is important that officials in the Minister’s Department and in the Department of Finance, are aligned with the objectives he is setting out. Members of the Oireachtas, includ-ing members of committees, play an important role in shaping and formulating the policies that emerge and enablers of those policies - local authorities and approved housing bodies - must be given the resources to deliver housing through direct build and other initiatives� That has been happening in the past couple of years but we need to see more of it� The delivery must be measured so that we know it is being done in the most efficient and coherent way possible and in accordance with the policy handed down by the Oireachtas and the Minister�

The NGOs and voluntary agencies play a role, as do elected members of local authorities� Councillors around the country have called for more resources for housing but then, when it is allocated and ready to move, there are objections from those very same councillors. We need to decide which way we want to go, to align all our support and push forward so that we can build the houses that are so badly needed�

The construction sector is a very important stakeholder. As we know, it has been destroyed over the past number of years� There is a huge potential for builders to access credit to build but to this day many still cannot get it from the various finance houses and banks. Some interven-tions are needed to assist builders to get building and enable them to do what they do best� It must be done in a sustainable way and we must not go back to the unsustainable practices of the past. The new planning framework and the capital investment plan contain the tools to drive that type of development where it is most needed�

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I welcome the recent housing summit and the re-evaluation of the Rebuilding Ireland plan because for any plan to work, it needs finances and resources. The Minister is looking at this and I welcome some of the initiatives he has already announced, not to mention those he is due to announce� We need to prioritise areas that can give us the earliest possible delivery of housing and vacant housing stock, in both local authorities and the private sector, needs to be focused on. Huge progress has been made since 2014 in unlocking vacant housing stock in lo-cal authorities around the country but more initiatives are needed� The serviced land initiative is also very important to unlock the potential of serviced lands to build houses on. We need priorities and homelessness has to be the main priority for all of us. Those who are at risk of losing their homes must get the support they require to stay there if possible� The new initia-tives around the mortgage-to-rent scheme are welcome but we need to constantly measure and evaluate them�

We also need to continue to support the homeless through wraparound services involving the HSE and the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection, to ensure people in complex long-term homelessness cases are getting the supports they need� The establishment of the interagency homeless group is very welcome, because we need greater co-ordination and coherence in the deployment of taxpayers’ funds at the coalface� I understand that over €100 million is being allocated to homeless services through various avenues and that a very high percentage of it goes into the voluntary sector, which does a great job. We need further analysis of how that money is being spent, however, because despite the huge resources going into it we are not, unfortunately, seeing enough progress� We need to measure how local authorities, approved housing bodies and any agency that accepts taxpayers’ money are delivering social housing and housing solutions in a timely and efficient fashion. We need to recognise that building does not come overnight but requires planning, funding and physical building� We need to remove the blockages and bureaucracy about which people have spoken and continue to evaluate it�

I have concerns about the whole area of affordability� We often hear about homelessness, and rightly so, but we do not hear about what I believe is a silent cohort of citizens who cannot afford a house in the current economic environment. They are people who are working and cannot qualify for a mortgage to buy or build their own home� They earn so much that they do not qualify for a social house through the local authority� These people are falling between stools and they need a voice. I want to be a voice for them. It is important we look at housing initiatives to assist them where rental pressures are greatest, namely, in the rent pressure zones� When they are competing for housing in those areas they also impact on the housing assistance payment, HAP, cohort and young professionals now cannot afford the rent in these areas� We need to think outside the box and come up with new initiatives for affordable build, purchase and rent. If we get those solutions they will bring immediate benefits, in the shape of another tier of housing provision for those who are working and by taking the pressure off HAP tenants who are also looking in the private sector. It will also create a demand and provide funding for the builders who cannot get credit to build, unlocking their potential to increase the housing supply�

I do not envy the Minister his job of work but I offer him my full support. I have been in his shoes in the past and I recognise the enormity of his challenge but I believe he is making strong progress in putting in place his plans and finance. He will need all stakeholders to be pulling the same way with him if we are going to achieve the progress we want in social and all types of housing� I wish him well in his endeavour�

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28/09/2017Y00200Senator Máire Devine: I welcome the Minister. Here we are again, making statements, but I am really not fond of statements as we should be here for legislation� Since the last state-ments in the Seanad on this issue, the homelessness figures have continued to rise, especially among children. I am disappointed we are back to listen to the Minister accept how dreadful these figures are, to promise to do more and to undertake to come back to the Seanad at a later stage to update us on progress� Given the urgency of the crisis, I would have expected to be here to discuss much-needed legislation to set in motion the change in policy and direction promised by his Government� The Government is doing nothing different from three months ago and there is no major change in attitude or application. The most worrying aspect of it is that the Government still does not fully grasp the extent of the national disgrace that is child-hood homelessness�

I am reluctant to use up too much time in laying bare the extent of the problem but I feel I must� In almost every single indicator, the housing crisis is getting worse, with 8,000 people sleeping in emergency accommodation, 3,000 of whom are children, many of whom are born into homelessness not knowing anything else, such as the security and comfort of their own hearth and kin gathered around. Many of these families with children will spend more than two years in inappropriate emergency accommodation and I have reminded the Minister repeatedly that those figures do not include adults and children in domestic refuges funded by the Depart-ment of Children and Youth Affairs, those in step-down accommodation, the families who are couchsurfing or living in sheds or those trapped in direct provision.

There were 90,000 households on the council waiting lists as of last September and I am sure those figures are rising. In many local authority areas the length of time families are wait-ing for local authority allocations can be 15 or 18 years. Thousands of people are stuck in an affordability trap with rising rents, rising house prices and land values� At this moment, next door to us in the National Library my party colleague, Deputy Eoin Ó Broin, is hosting a con-ference advocating the immediate building of social housing� It is ironic that an Opposition party has had to gather together the relevant stakeholders and experts to discuss the best way of advancing one of the most fundamental duties of this State, which is to ensure its citizens are housed safely and securely� More is happening outside Government circles than within them in the area of housing advocacy� The campaign entitled, “My Name Is” which was organised by the inner city action on homelessness group was a brilliant visual manifestation of what the Government’s failure leads to, which is young children who have no home to go to after they leave school�

Also on the subject of taking up the slack, I wish to mention the wonderful initiative of Sinn Féin councillor, Shane O’Brien, in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown Council where agreement has been reached to work together on the development of the innovative proposal for the Shan-ganagh urban village co-operative on housing development, consisting of 200 social housing apartments and 340 affordable homes�

28/09/2017Z00100Senator Paudie Coffey: That was a Fine Gael idea - Shanganagh�

28/09/2017Z00200Senator Máire Devine: Politicians need to think outside the box in order to tackle the housing crisis� One great outcome of this initiative, apart from building so many much need-ed homes, is the cross-party support which was achieved� Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council has representation from every party and none� The fact that this intense political rivalry could be set aside in order to tackle this crisis is a positive sign. It certainly beats the merry-go-round feel of how this issue is tackled here in the Oireachtas.

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We have had a succession of Ministers� We have had Departments chopping and changing� We have had figures leaked or released at times designed to reduce their impact. We have had several sets of figures released late on Friday evenings or on the bank holiday weekends and as a result, it is hard to find consistency within Government.

There are now over 10,000 waiting on social housing lists in Dublin South Central and thousands of other individuals and families who do not qualify for social housing support and are struggling to pay rising private rents and who will never have any form of secure tenure without support�

This is what the Shanganagh plan is about� We have put aside party political rivalry and drawn up a plan that can deliver 540 homes� This plan can deliver quality social and affordable homes in a mixed tenure development based on the continental urban village design model� This is the most appropriate design model for the Shanganagh Castle site�

The longer the Government spends spinning figures and plans, the more it will be left up to individuals, such Councillor O’Brien and his colleagues, to come up with initiatives to tackle this crisis� Maybe it is because councillors - I have been one - are at the coalface, and see every day the devastation that long-term homelessness has on human beings, families and communi-ties, that they are spurred into such unprecedented and non-partisan work. I urge the Minister to examine this proposal and see the benefit of cross-party work on this issue.

Yesterday we were subjected to a five-minute rant in this Chamber by a Minister against Sinn Féin which was completely off point�

28/09/2017Z00300Senator Jerry Buttimer: It was not a rant�

28/09/2017Z00400Senator Michelle Mulherin: It was not a rant�

28/09/2017Z00500Senator Máire Devine: Gabh mo leithsceál�

28/09/2017Z00600Senator Jerry Buttimer: Senator Devine is excused� The Senator is all right but-----

28/09/2017Z00700Senator Máire Devine: I ask Senator Buttimer to be a bit respectful.

28/09/2017Z00800Senator Jerry Buttimer: -----the facts hurt too�

28/09/2017Z00900Senator Paul Gavan: Is Fine Gael ranting again?

28/09/2017Z01000An Cathaoirleach: Allow Senator Devine conclude without interruption�

28/09/2017Z01100Senator Máire Devine: Senator Buttimer has to be protective of his Ministers, but please dún do bhéal�

28/09/2017Z01200Senator Jerry Buttimer: The one-dimensional speech, is it?

28/09/2017Z01300Senator Paudie Coffey: It is the same old story with them�

28/09/2017Z01400Senator Máire Devine: The Minister in question was at times apoplectic in his rejection of our proposals for capital expenditure� I can only hope that some day the Government will be hopping mad and shameful about how disgraceful it is to allow children to be born into home-lessness and the insecurity it brings, and the families’ despair� Shame on us all�

28/09/2017Z01500Senator Grace O’Sullivan: I welcome the Minister�

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I concur with Senator Devine� Shame on us all to be here in a great homelessness crisis the legacy of which will be with us for years to come� The 2016 census shows that in the lifetime of the previous Fine Gael-led Government homelessness increased by 81%� In September, the total number of homeless people in the country exceeded 8,000 for the first time. Some 36% of those homeless people are children� Some 36% of Fine Gael Deputies and Senators have registered their professions as landlords� According to the RTB, there has been at least a 21�5% rent increase in the areas in which some Deputies and Ministers are landlords�

Fine Gael’s current solution to the housing crisis has been to provide tax incentives or re-duce regulation for land hoarders, builders and landlords, often directly against the advice of experts and academics. Forgive me if I am mistaken, but I do not believe the solution to the housing crisis is to incentivise those with a vested interest in a worsening crisis and yet the Gov-ernment continues to do just that. I must admit that, after a year and a half in the Oireachtas, I am deeply concerned that Fine Gael, a party 36% of whose Deputies and Senators are landlords, has a vested interest in turning the current housing crisis to their particular advantage�

The biggest current threat to housing supply, as I stated this morning, is the widespread practice of land banking, also know as land hoarding. I refer to the empty shop-fronts and houses that pepper the streets of our towns right across Ireland� Mr� Brendan McDonagh, the head of NAMA, released a statement saying that enough land to solve the housing crisis was sold by NAMA, land that would have supported 50,000 houses� However, only 3,000 houses, or 6%, have been built� He blamed land hoarding for this�

Currently, there is no penalty for hoarding land or leaving it unused� This is proven to result in land speculation and higher house prices� ESRI economist Dr� Kieran McQuinn stated that landowners currently can hoard undeveloped land at little cost other than that of keeping plan-ning permits up to date, and are rewarded as prices rise� He recommended an aggressive “use it or lose it” tax be introduced to force land hoarders to release sites needed for housing� I, and the Civil Engagement group proposed such a tax scheme last year� In February 2017, we intro-duced the Derelict and Vacant Sites Bill 2017 that would have addressed the specific problem of land hoarding. The current legislation is inadequate and, in fact, exempts basketball court-sized properties, not including their gardens, from the levy� It also exempts properties in negative equity, even if owned by an investor, directly incentivising land hoarding and increases in house prices�

No levy is being applied until 2019 due to a 2012-2013 capital gains tax exemption that allows people to buy land, hold it for seven years and not pay any tax on its sale� That was brought in to incentivise the market. The tax that will be applied in 2019 is a toothless waste of time� It applies a tax of 3% when land prices are rising well above that� Land in negative equity and land the size of a basketball court are exempt, as I stated, from the levy.

The Green Party and the Civil Engagement group sought to address precisely these issue in our Derelict and Vacant Sites Bill 2017 in the Seanad in February last� The Bill was voted down by Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil, despite support from highly regarded constitutional lawyers, le-gal academics and economic experts�

The Government’s tax incentive-focused housing plans are not only useless, but dangerous� The Government’s repair and leasing scheme, which is a primary arm of the social housing build scheme in Rebuilding Ireland, has conclusively failed� It was supposed to provide 800 units by 2017 and so far it has secured 30� Instead, according to Dublin City Council housing

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manager, Mr. Tony Flynn, our towns and cities are filled with owners seeking to wait for rents to continue to climb and that they will be able to rent it out without making improvements. This lack of improvement has real knock-on costs for renters. Dublin City Council data show that 78% of private rental properties inspected under one programme between 2012 and 2016 did not meet the basic minimum legal standards for rental accommodation� My Green Party colleagues, Deputy Catherine Martin, and the barrister academic, Deirdre Ní Fhloinn, high-lighted in a Dáil motion on building standards how Government encourages such substandard housing by allowing builders and landowners to regulate themselves�

Government has attempted to incentivise supply by reducing building standards� At a time when home owners are still left struggling to deal with the fallout of a complete lack of over-sight in building standards over decades, from Priory Hall to the recent pyrite and mica scan-dals, landowners sat at their leisure on untaxed hoarded land� They lobbied for reductions in apartment sizes, tax incentives, reduced development levies, infrastructure funding to the tune of €200 million, the botched help-to-buy scheme and relaxations in much needed mortgage lending rules yet there has been no major increase in private sector housing supply. Instead, vulture and global equity funds have bought up rental properties and land and invested in specu-lative office building and student apartments, not housing. There were 18,878 houses bought by non-occupiers in 2015, up from just 5,194 in 2010. One in seven new homes sold between January and June 2016 was bought by non-occupiers, with investors accounting for a quarter of total house purchases�

The proposed changes to the tax situation for landlords in budget 2018 are also highly ques-tionable as they increase the potential for the rental sector to be a hub for short-term-profit in-vestments rather than ensuring safe, sustainable long-term housing� Instead of building houses and long-term capital stock for the State, the Government directly subsidises one third of the private rental sector by at least €450 million a year in spite of its being told by all relevant experts that this will worsen the current rent and house price inflation. It has long been under-stood by housing economists that incentivising housing and rents through tax cuts or subsidies leads to a bubble scenario out of proportion with ordinary rates of inflation. Such subsidies drive up average rents and are a significant drain on funds that could be put to more efficient long-term use� Analyses carried out by experts such as the ESRI, the National Economic and Social Council, NESC, and our European colleagues are aligned in their conclusion that we need fewer tax incentives but rather need direct building of social and affordable housing by the State primarily; the increase of the income bracket to include higher incomes and investment in long-term cost-price rental� Good quality permanent social housing can be rapidly built within six to eight months� The building of such homes should be prioritised rather than the provision of unsuitable hub emergency accommodation that has severe detrimental impacts on children� Hubs are being placed in industrial estates or above pubs, such as the recent choice of location on Merchant’s Quay�

I again refer to the twin percentages: 36% of Fine Gael Deputies and Senators in this Oireachtas are registered as landlords and 36% of homeless people are children� I wonder why expert-based action is not being taken.

28/09/2017AA00200Senator Michelle Mulherin: I welcome the Minister to the Chamber� As Senator Coffey said, this is a very important debate and there is no doubt we will have to revisit it� Some of the points I wish to make are supplementary to points raised by Senator Coffey.

During the summer an expert panel report that identified the existence of pyrite and mica in

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houses in counties Mayo and Donegal was published� That is not surprising for those affected but it is devastating. The pyrite and mica is in the blockwork of those houses as distinct from the pyrite found in the foundations of some houses in Leinster and has an even more negative impact on the property structure. As the Minister knows, some proposed solutions involve not only stripping the outer leaf of the cavity blockwork of a house but also the inner leaf. That in-volves taking a house to the ground and rebuilding it, which all Members know is an expensive endeavour. Most of those affected cannot afford to take such action. There is an urgency to this issue because I am aware of at least one house where an engineer advised the roof was in danger of structural collapse and the owner had to use his or her savings to pay for remedial work to be done. That person and his or her engineer worked closely with the expert panel, which resulted in some of the recommendations in the expert panel report. I ask the Minister to outline his commitment to helping the affected people in Mayo and Donegal in a timely fashion� Time is of the essence� What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Finance, Deputy Donohoe, about making provision in budget 2018 for a remediation scheme? A scheme exists in Leinster on which work is ongoing and fairness requires that the people in counties Mayo and Donegal receive no less assistance from the State. I acknowledge the work that has been done in identifying hopefully permanent engineering solutions�

The housing problem or issue manifests itself differently in big urban centres� The issues in Dublin, in particular, have been outlined. There is a major homelessness problem in my home county of Mayo� Approximately 1,600 people are on the social housing list there according to the most recent figures I have. When one goes to market towns and villages there are very many empty houses and also shops that will never be used as shops again� Those empty premises could be used as part of the housing solution� I welcome the town and village renewal scheme which is operated by the Department of my county colleague, the Minister for Rural and Com-munity Development, Deputy Ring� There is potential in it and its intention is to enhance our towns and villages and make them more attractive places to live. One should begin by asking why people do not want to live in these houses. I ask Senator Grace O’Sullivan why the people who own such premises are not prepared to become landlords� Some of the answers are clear, such as how onerous it is, especially for the many responsible landlords�

The Minister oversees the repair and lease scheme and the buy and renew scheme� How are they progressing? The Minister may have already mentioned that�

To address the issue of people who do not want to live in certain houses in towns and vil-lages the Minister has to ensure there are services and work with local authorities. However, he is familiar with the proposal I brought to the Fine Gael Parliamentary Party and which was ratified. It is to identify a town core, incentivise it for people living over shops and give grant aid or tax incentives in that regard. Businesses would get a rates break if under a certain size. Small independent businesses should be treated differently to Tesco and other multiples that are usually located out of town and do not add to the town�

In terms of affordability, the cost of planning contributions in County Mayo can add €12,000 to the cost of building a house� A circular was sent to many planning authorities in 2013 by the then Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Phil Hogan, asking for the cost of planning contributions to be reduced in the interest of promoting development� That did not happen in all counties and I ask that it be done.

As Senator Coffey said, there is now an issue of non-permanent contracts� People such as young professionals are consistently employed on temporary contracts� How will they get

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mortgages and what sort of Government intervention might be required to assist them? They can clearly afford mortgages but the criteria applied by banks require some sort of permanency to people’s work that does not exist for many. That will become a more severe problem if things continue as they are�

28/09/2017AA00300Senator Kevin Humphreys: The Minister is very welcome� He faces many great chal-lenges, not just in regard to social housing but also affordable housing and affordable rental housing� I do not want to go over the statistics that have been outlined� The Minister needs to have a short-term, mid-term and long-term plan to resolve this issue. He has been working on mid-term and long-term solutions but he needs to address the low-hanging fruit� How do we deal with the people and families that are currently homeless? The Minister’s predecessor, Deputy Coveney, gave me a commitment that he would set up a working group in relation to short-term lets. When I checked at the beginning of the summer, the group had only met twice. I hope it has met on further occasions since then�

The Minister made an announcement in regard to a licensing process for short-term lets within a period of time� We need a lot of action in that regard� Between 2,500 and 6,500 units in Dublin have moved from being available for rent for working families or people on the hous-ing assistance payment, HAP, or rent allowance to being used for short-term lets� Some people use the word “Airbnb” as the common denominator but there are at least 16 different platforms dealing in short-term lets in the capital city� That can be dealt with through our planning proce-dures because planning permission has not been granted for premises to operate as short-term lets and I refer the Minister to the decision of An Bord Pleanála in that regard� I have contacted several planning enforcement officers who work across the city and asked them how we can deal with this issue. One of the issues the officers have highlighted is the fact that they cannot prove that a premises is operating a short-term let thus breaching planning permission� We need a register to deal with this matter� Therefore, we must legislate to ensure that platforms maintain a register�

I am not talking about a family who rent a spare room or somebody who rents a spare room in his or her city apartment to Airbnb� Such endeavour has enhanced this city and helps an own-er-occupier to pay his or her mortgage and meet new people. Last week I moved home. Since then my neighbours have informed me that on my street alone seven houses that were used as family homes have moved to Airbnb lettings in the past two years� In the mornings I can hear the wheels of travel cases trundling down the footpath as visitors make their way to the airport. I have also been informed that not too far from where the Minister lives up to ten homes have either changed from family homes or long-term lets to short-term lets in the past two years�

As I said clearly to the former Minister, Deputy Coveney, a decision has to be made but there are consequences for every decision� Short-term lets enhance the tourism industry and attract more people to the city. We must decide whether we want to house families and work-ing families in this city or supply accommodation that was designed and built for long-term lets or for use as family homes to the tourism market. The answer to me is clear. We must provide homes for families and working people in this city. Will such a measure solve the housing cri-sis? No� I totally accept that such a measure will not do so but this short-term solution will give a quick fix. Let us consider the lowest estimate of 2,500 units. If the Minister ensured 2,000 of those units became long-term lets within a year the measure would significantly contribute to alleviating this city’s housing crisis�

I shall now speak generally. Earlier Senator McDowell mentioned Charlemont Street and

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the Minister was present� I had the privilege to serve on the regeneration board established to oversee the development of Charlemont Street. Indeed, it was a block redevelopment. We did not look at social housing in isolation. Instead, we considered ways to make the city work and sought the right density of population and social housing with dual aspect apartments with storage space. We also made sure that private housing was developed and shopping and work spaces were provided� The area is now a real living area in the city and one that will last for many generations�

We have to concentrate on providing housing as quickly as possible and regenerate the housing stock of the entire country. Senator McDowell mentioned Dolphin House and I would add Pearse House and Markievicz House to the list of buildings that need significant investment to bring them up to date� At present they are unsuitable in terms of today’s living standards� The flats were built with a coal hole located to the front of the buildings. The buildings were good quality at the time of being built� However, when people have tried to install central heat-ing in these flats many instances of mould and damp were discovered. Therefore, investment is necessary�

The next item is homelessness� The Minister has not got full control over the issue because there are many homeless families� Unfortunately, homelessness has been with us for a long time. It is difficult to move people from homelessness into housing. I know because I have worked with homeless individuals. It is mainly individual homeless people who have success-fully been housed. I know that some of them have moved into a home but fallen back into homelessness after a couple of months because wraparound services offering support were not provided to the individuals when first housed. The HSE must step up to the mark. Vulnerable people who are homeless need HSE supports and wraparound services when they move into a home thus ensuring that they do not fall back into homelessness.

The Minister will not find me wanting when it comes to supporting ways to tackle the many challenges� On many occasions I have had the privilege, as a councillor, to develop many hous-ing units like the Pumphouse development, which is located quite close to my home. I recall that many people loudly objected to the development because the apartments were designated as social housing� Dublin City Council was also able to develop affordable housing at Poolbeg Quay during the main period of recession� There is not one solution but many solutions to the housing crisis. I ask the Minister to urgently analyse the effects short-term lets are having on this city. This matter can be dealt with quickly. Personally, I do not want to table Private Members’ legislation in this House because it will take too long to do so and we will lose the opportunity to make an impact. I urge the Minister to tackle short-term lets in the next weeks or months which will result in a minimum of 2,500 units and maybe far more being available�

28/09/2017BB00200Senator Jerry Buttimer: I welcome the Minister for Housing, Planning and Local Gov-ernment to the House to debate this very important matter� I shall begin by discussing the last point made by Senator Humphreys and his claim that there is not just one solution but many solutions to this problem, which is what this Government is committed to�

I am not a landlord and own my house� Senator Grace O’Sullivan claimed 36�9% of Fine Gael Members are landlords� There is nothing wrong with being a landlord or owning prop-erty� We need to adopt a multiplicity approach to the housing crisis and landlords are not the problem. I ask her to please not attribute the problem to the 36.9% of Fine Gael Deputies and Senators who are landlords�

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Let me give the backdrop. We had a dysfunctional housing market where the banks were gone, the developers folded, local authorities did not have money to build and the previous Fianna Fáil Government changed the criteria and took money off developers rather then build social housing� There is a call for action and it is called Rebuilding Ireland�

I commend the Minister on his work and for being proactive since he came into office. However, I want to know the following. Are we getting value for money from the amount of money we have spent on housing supports in his Department, in the Department of Health and in the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection? Has the Government spent taxpayers’ money wisely?

Nobody in this House that I know of wants to see young children, their families or their mums or dads in a hotel or housing shelter� We have all met desperate people in our constituen-cies and heard the human stories behind the statistics� These people deserve to have a house and this Government is about solutions� It is not about posturing, political points scoring and abdicating responsibility� It is about delivering� It is why we have allocated €1�2 billion to so-cial housing out of the overall sum of €5�5 billion that was allocated to the Rebuilding Ireland programme� It is not about ideology�

I want to challenge the myth that the Fine Gael Party is not in favour of building social housing. That myth has been propagated by the people who know the truth and that Fine Gael is committed to delivering� We have a record of building when in government, which we will continue. It is not about money. It is not about bricks and mortar. It is about people. I shall return to the fundamental core point� Are we spending our money wisely as a State?

In my constituency of Cork South-Central as much as €15.9 million has been set aside to build 65 housing units in Deanrock Estate, Togher. The project at Sheridan Park, Tramore Road, has been opened and people are living in the houses� Tomorrow the Minister will visit Cork to open social housing projects - social housing projects under a Fine Gael Government.

28/09/2017BB00300Senator Paul Gavan: That is very light�

28/09/2017BB00400Senator Jerry Buttimer: Under a Fine Gael Government, Senator Gavan� Seven sites await development to a tune of €37�6 million� That shows social housing is being delivered by a Fine Gael Government�

3 o’clock

Please tell the people who are now housed in the two places I just named, in particular in Sheridan Park, who have moved in and are delighted to be there, that a Fine Gael Government is providing them with social housing because work is being done. I accept that it needs a col-lective will and movement. We wish we were not in this situation. Look at where we came from� There are challenges that we have to overcome with regard to rezoning of land, derelict sites and the acquisition and refurbishment of housing� We have to change the model but we have the plan and we have the allocation of resources and now, as Senator Coffey rightly said, we must have delivery. That means we must challenge the local authorities, banks, developers, political class and the voluntary housing agencies to move in one direction�

None of us wants to have this debate about people being, unfortunately, in hotel rooms or homeless but there is movement and there is political will by Government and it will take time. The answer to those who say Fine Gael is not committed to social housing is that it has invested

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€5�5 billion in Rebuilding Ireland�

28/09/2017CC00200An Cathaoirleach: Four other Senators have offered contributions and will have five min-utes each. That takes us beyond 3.15 p.m., and I presume the Minister will want a few minutes to wrap up�

28/09/2017CC00400Senator Jerry Buttimer: I am happy to propose an amendment to the Order of Business�

28/09/2017CC00500An Cathaoirleach: Is the Senator proposing to allow for the four speakers who are left speak and the Minister’s to respond?

28/09/2017CC00600Senator Jerry Buttimer: Senators Norris, Dolan, Reilly and Gavan have yet to speak.

28/09/2017CC00700An Cathaoirleach: An extension to 3.30 p.m. should be sufficient.

28/09/2017CC00800Senator Jerry Buttimer: I propose to extend the sitting until 3�30 p�m�

28/09/2017CC00900An Cathaoirleach: Is that agreed? Agreed�

28/09/2017CC01100Senator John Dolan: I welcome the Minister� It is important to be clear and to continue to say to ourselves daily that housing is a public good� It does not matter whether it is a mei-theal, co-operative or a private builder or the State that builds� The State has to underwrite and ensure that the environment is in place, as well as other matters discussed this afternoon� The State has to be the ultimate ward boss to make sure it happens for everyone. One cannot have any kind of a stabilised civilisation if one does not have housing, a place which people can call their own� Whether people own a place or not does not matter once they can call it their own and have a lien on it�

There is a crisis within the crisis. I am talking about people with disabilities. Prior to our national housing crisis, there was a crisis for people with disabilities� The Minister’s Depart-ment was able to say, in 2003, from its own statistics, that there were just shy of 4,000 people with disabilities on the social housing list� Its information, when it updated that in 2016, shows that it has gone to 4,500� Rebuilding Ireland did not even mention the 3,919 people that the Department knew about. I am very concerned that the crisis within the crisis does not seem to be a crisis for Government and I want reassurance about that� This House unanimously passed a motion in July last year relating to disability and housing and action was to follow that� It was passed by all sides of the House, which I appreciate very much� While I will not go into details, I ask for an urgent update on what actions have been taken on what was agreed by everybody in this House at that time�

It is worth remembering that the great United States was the country that incubated the eco-nomic crisis that spread around the globe a decade ago and it is even more interesting to recall what sparked that. It was a matter of private entities giving loans to people who did not have the wherewithal to pay them back. Those who made those loans diced and sliced them into all sorts of packages and sold them on, hence the crisis was exported. Things were going in the wrong direction for us at the time but my point is that social housing is a social and public good and it has to be underpinned very strongly by the State�

We have a situation where €178 million of public funding has been garnered together from savings this year and is going to be given back to people who paid their water charges. While we could have a discussion about this, that would fund, give or take, 800 social houses for people with disabilities� I am not questioning the Government’s motivation in this regard for a

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moment but very serious choices are being made�

I am very concerned that there is not a commitment to housing for people with disabilities in Rebuilding Ireland. There was half a page which talked about working groups and strategies and strategies within charities but there was no actual commitment� That the Department did not even mention the actual housing need that it knew of for people with disabilities is concern-ing. Social housing for people with disabilities has to be a significant part of the response to the crisis and, within that, there is the important element of housing support for people and the grant scheme for people to adapt their houses. I ask the Minister to please attend to these mat-ters�

28/09/2017CC01200Senator Paul Gavan: I welcome the Minister. I do not really have a speech, just a few points I wanted to make to supplement what my colleague, Senator Devine, spoke about earlier. I have to mention Limerick city because each week I hold a clinic there and it is shocking to meet families who have been in homeless accommodation month after month� There are cur-rently 111 homeless children in Limerick, living in one room across a range of hotels. One meets people who are out of hope and are so desperate that one worries about what measures they might take. People come into our clinic and we worry if they will still be there next week because they are literally at the end of their tether� Sometimes people come in and are angry, and when we talk to them and they understand the situation and challenges, they tell us about the impact on their relationships, children and partners� I am not claiming that we are the only ones to experience this. I think we all do. It is truly shocking that six and a half years into Fine Gael Governments, the crisis continues to get worse� The other day the Leader blamed Fianna Fáil, and do not get me wrong, I am happy to blame Fianna Fáil on occasion but after six and a half years, the Government is going to have to come up with something better�

28/09/2017CC01300Senator Jennifer Murnane O’Connor: I feel that too�

28/09/2017CC01400Senator Paul Gavan: The Leader is wrong when he says it is not about ideology� It actu-ally is and I will give a couple of examples. We know Fine Gael is a right-wing party and, in fairness to the Minister, he has never had any qualms about showing his devotion to the free market in interviews. There is a problem when we have a party that always takes the side of the landlord. I can tell the Minister from first-hand experience in Limerick that one of the matters that is really driving this problem is the fact that tenants do not have rights to stay in houses when those houses are put up for sale. The lack of tenancy rights is a major problem which is forcing people into homelessness and the Minister’s Government refuses to give tenants rights� That is a problem, and it is ideological because I think the Minister perhaps genuinely believes that is the wrong thing to do. Those of us on the left know that it is the right thing to do and it should be addressed� A bigger statistic tells us more� Of the 130,000 families that one wants to help in social housing, only 37,000 will be housed through real social housing� The remaining 93,000 will be housed through the private sector� To answer Senator Buttimer’s question as to whether we are spending the money wisely, we are not because we throw too much money at private sector landlords. It is not the most efficient way to deal with this crisis.

I was looking at the record of this House and the Leader mentioned at one point that the for-mer Minister, Deputy Coveney, would be held accountable to his promises� We might remem-ber he promised there would be no homelessness after July� He has not been held accountable� He has gained a promotion and skipped out, delivering only broken promises. Let us be clear about that� Let us also be clear that this is not getting better, it is getting worse� Fine Gael has supplied social housing and I think the Leader wanted a medal for that. However, it has not

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been delivered in numbers� I remind the Minister that under his plan, the Government will still be spending less in the area than what was being spent when Fine Gael came into office.

We have some simple requests and they really come from the deliberations of the Oireachtas joint committee dealing with housing. We want the Government to deliver 10,000 social homes per year� That is not what we have said but rather what all the parties indicated that must be de-livered� We want direct funding for affordable renting and purchase� We want greater tenancy rights, which the Government refuses to give. I ask the Minister for a direct answer on the next request� We want a commitment that no family will be in emergency accommodation for more than six months� If the Government is serious about housing, the Minister could give us that commitment. He has said money is no object but if that is the case, he should ensure no family would have to go through living in emergency accommodation for longer than six months� I assure the Minister that when one sees desperation in people’s faces, looking towards Christmas living in one room in a hotel, it is a matter of shame for this Government� We should be clear about that�

We proposed rent certainty and linking rents to the consumer price index, which demon-strates an ideological difference as the Government refused to do it� As a result, we have seen horrendous rent hikes in Limerick and the Government is letting it continue. We need greater rights for tenants and a greater commitment to public housing than the Government has made to date. We need it to recognise, first and foremost, that this is the responsibility of the Govern-ment� Fine Gael has been in government for six and a half years and it has failed� The Minis-ter’s predecessor completely failed and was not held accountable�

28/09/2017DD00200Senator James Reilly: I welcome the Minister to the House and our new surroundings� I would agree with some of what the previous speaker said but I could not possibly agree with much of it� Fine Gael is a broad church and there are centrists in the party� It is also the party of the just society. Senator Norris may laugh-----

28/09/2017DD00300Senator David Norris: The Senator provoked it.

28/09/2017DD00400Senator James Reilly: -----but it brought many social advances to this country in the past number of years and the tenure of the last Government�

I am struck by Senator Dolan’s comments and agree that we must have specific provision in our social housing policy for those with disabilities� I am sure the Minister would be open to that. I am also struck by the old adage that if New York gets a cold, London gets pneumonia; poor old Ireland got septicaemia and when this last happened we were nearly wiped out�

28/09/2017DD00500Senator John Dolan: We have some good doctors here�

28/09/2017DD00600Senator James Reilly: We shall not touch on that subject.

This is a very serious matter and it is one of the two biggest issues affecting our society - housing and health - both of which have an impact on homelessness� As we saw on last night’s programme on RTE, health is a major issue for those who are homeless. I know from experi-ence over many years on health boards that the policy of decanting patients back to the com-munity without proper support led to much difficulty on the homelessness element as well. I know the Government has put in place much money to cater for this. We will need more than just money, we will need action.

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I will speak to a few local concerns I know of. We speak about social housing and it is happening. There is affordable housing going up in good numbers in Lusk and other parts of Fingal� Earlier this year I raised with the Minister’s predecessor the issue of the Flemish deci-sion in the European court on rural housing policy� The position of the chief executive of Fingal County Council is that the current Fingal development plan and rural housing policy remains in place until he is told otherwise by the Department. The Minister has a working group for this and I implore him to get the group to report as quickly as possible. The current position flies in the face of the reality of the ruling from the European court. The restriction, as we know, is that one must live in a rural area for seven years when constructing a house; it now seems to have been struck down. The exception is if a bank forces a sale.

In a related matter, there are 26 designations of rural clusters of various sizes, from perhaps five to 25 houses, and all are in doubt now because of the European court ruling. We do not know who can get planning permission. The purpose of the rural clusters was to provide sites to avoid ribbon development and have a clustered community� This is a good idea but people are now totally uncertain about the status of those clusters� Planning permissions that may have already been granted may not stand the test of a disgruntled objector or court case. Everything is in disarray so we need certainty as soon as possible. I ask the Minister to give us some indi-cation of when that group will report�

I can relate an anecdote about a family who bought a house in a rural cluster area but a num-ber of years later, the woman has become quite ill and her daughter would like to build near her. They have the land to do that and the daughter could support her parents as they grow older� The parents could support their daughter in raising her children. Nobody can make a move in any direction� We need clarity in these matters�

On the up side, a lot of money has been put aside to address this issue but it is very frustrat-ing for people. Several Senators have mentioned people who find themselves homeless with children trying to attend school, not knowing where they will be living next month and if they will still be able to go to school. I will not rehearse all the difficulties they face and the terrible social damage that could be done to the next generation if we cannot address the matter quickly. The Minister and his Minister of State, Deputy English, have new ideas to put in place and they are working hard to introduce innovation and “out of the box” thinking. That is desperately needed if we are to address the problem� It is the burning issue of our day, as I stated at the outset�

28/09/2017DD00700Senator David Norris: I will not need the full five minutes as I have only a few things to say, having spoken passionately on this matter previously. I listened to the speeches this afternoon and got the feeling there is a lack of the urgency and passion that one would expect in confronting a crisis, except for a few speeches. That does not reflect the sense of catas-trophe facing us. This Government is having great difficulty in dealing with approximately 7,000 homeless people but what will happen when the number reaches 10,000, 15,000, 20,000, 30,000 or 40,000, which is quite possible as a result of the operations of the European Central Bank leaning on the likes of AIB, pushing them to offload distressed mortgages? As something from a southern unionist and royalist background, I am astonished speakers from the two main parties that claim derivation from the republican movement and anti-Britishness, etc�, are pre-pared, in an Irish republic of the 21st century, to look with equanimity at people being evicted to the side of the road from homes� To contemplate any Irish person being evicted is an obscenity�

On 31 March this year there was a total of €8�8 billion in outstanding balances on mortgages

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in arrears for more than a year for private homes� That covered 41,000 accounts in total but in reality it is a lot more� It is well over those approximately 40,000 accounts� For this rea-son I was approached by a group of people to introduce a Bill in the last session, the National Housing Co-operative Bill 2017; it is still on the Order Paper. Unfortunately, there is a kind of bureaucratic resistance to thinking outside the box. This Bill proposed a new agency, a national housing co-operative, which would move in when the likes of AIB unloaded an enormous number of mortgages, creating a possible avalanche of homelessness� The co-operative would take over the distressed mortgages at the current level of value before renting them back or remortgaging them to the original owners so they could stay in those houses� In my opinion, that is a really good and imaginative response� The Bill I introduced in the Seanad is at pres-ent being refined and honed to make it a more accurate and appropriate vehicle. Deputy John McGuinness in the other House is taking a very active interest in this Bill and there has been all-party support for this measure� A group has been in America to discuss with trust funds the possibility of securing the capital required and there is quite a possibility of a 20 year bond, secured against the properties. We believe we would have the backing of major international financial institutions to do so. This is because long-term 20 year loans are at an uniquely low cost level and could be accessed�

This situation is urgent and it needs to be addressed as a crisis. We need to think imagi-natively� As I said, it is an obscenity in an Irish Republic in the 21st century that we should contemplate citizens being evicted from their homes�

28/09/2017EE00200Acting Chairman (Senator Michelle Mulherin): Senator Kieran O’Donnell has about four minutes�

28/09/2017EE00300Senator Kieran O’Donnell: I will try to do it in three minutes� I welcome the Minister for Housing, Planning and Local Government, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, to the House� This is an extremely important debate. To put my contribution in context, I will speak on the area I know best, Limerick. There is an issue with the provision of housing in Limerick city. There is a perception that Limerick has a very large stock of social housing. Many of the older estates are now privately owned, so local authority houses are not that abundant� I very much welcome the Minister’s announcement of various building projects, such as that in Edward Street. We have had building projects in Southhill, Moyross and apartments are being renovated in Careys Road, which are all positive. We will have further building projects in the pipeline.

The key point I wish to focus on is Georgian Limerick. Inner city Limerick dates from the Georgian period and the houses in the inner city are Georgian� The Department of Finance introduced the living city initiative a number of years ago� It is a very worthwhile scheme, but we need to look at ways to encourage people to live in the city centre across a range of areas. The cost of renovating Georgian houses is much greater than the cost of a new build� I put the proposal to the Minister for Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Heather Humphreys, that funding would be ring fenced particularly under the living initiative scheme for Georgian houses� I want to see provisions for owner occupiers, for the renovation of small mews in the old lanes that Frank McCourt would have spoken about, so that we can bring new families and younger people back into them. Second, we need investors to create much needed accommoda-tion� There is a scheme run by the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government, whereby the local authority can work with owners of properties to renovate them and put leases in place for a ten year period to provide much needed housing� Any solution in terms of hous-ing in Limerick city centre has to involve the Georgian quarter. We can serve a dual purpose, preserving buildings and also bringing people back to live in the city centre. I feel strongly

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about that issue�

There is no substitute for building houses� I very much welcome that house building is now the policy priority of Government and of the Minister, Deputy Murphy’s Department� People are under pressure paying rent. I know a solution will not happen overnight, but the intention to build traditional local authority housing is very welcome� The challenge will be to ensure that we will deal with the homeless, which I know is a high priority for the Minister. He will ensure that the building programme continues in the city of Limerick, which I represent, and also ensure that by rejuvenating the Georgian inner city, much needed housing accommodation will be provided in the city that will encourage people to live in the city centre�

28/09/2017EE00400Acting Chairman (Senator Michelle Mulherin): The Minister has five minutes.

28/09/2017EE00500Minister for Housing, Planning and Local Government (Deputy Eoghan Murphy): Perhaps I could have a little more time so that I can address all the different issues that were raised� I apologise for being late� Although I was paired, I wanted to be present for the votes in respect of my Department�

Senator Devine said that we should not be just making statements and that the Government should be doing more� The solution she pointed to was a meeting that is happening next door� She said that we should set aside politics but she then made an inherently political speech which showed no acceptance that progress has been made. If we are going to work together on the issue, which we need to do, and the Fianna Fáil Party has said that we will move this outside of the political space, we must be fair and recognise when things are happening and also when things are not happening, we must try to find solutions to them. She bemoaned the fact that no legislation was before the House today� The last legislation in this House passed before the recess was the extension to planning to allow housing to continue to be built where the exten-sions were not in place� She said that nothing new had been done, whereas in June I signed into effect the order to allow the new fast-track planning process for an Bord Pleanála. There are now 5,000 homes on the books under the new faster process which will be built.

Senator Devine also said the Government is not doing anything differently� That is not true� Rebuilding Ireland is a new plan to build more in this country and address all of the issues that have been raised here today and it is making progress. There has been an increase of more than 40% in planning permissions since this time last year, an increase of more than 40% in con-struction commencement notices since this time last year, and an increase of 33% in Dublin of people connecting to the ESB grid since this time last year� Do we have to do more? Of course, we do, and that is why very recently I announced that we are increasing our output and building social housing homes directly by 30% for next year� That is why we had a housing summit and came up with new ideas that can help with homelessness, for example, the homeless inter-agen-cy group. I ask people not to make this a political space but that we recognise what is working, and also see where we can do more and let us work together to achieve it.

When we look at the deep problems with homelessness, and the Taoiseach has said that it is a stain on our society, we have difficulties with individuals and we have difficulties with families who are experiencing homelessness� Later on today or early tomorrow morning, I will release the latest figures on homelessness. What they will show is that the number of homeless families nationally is up. I can speak about a number of aspects of that, but it will show that the number of homeless families in Dublin is down. Clearly, there is a significant amount of work to be done� Recently I held a housing summit to consider this problem, in particular because

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some of the things I was seeing during the course of June and July made me realise that we needed to bring the local authorities together to really get a proper grip on solutions�

The new inter-agency group that will be chaired by Mr� John Murphy is about bringing together the resources that are already being invested to ensure they are being invested in the best way and to make sure that all the wrap around supports that we put in place are working. We announced exit co-ordinators to help people who exit homelessness to prevent them from falling back into homelessness. I announced a national director for Housing First and an addi-tional 100 places for Housing First because that model works. We know it works and we want to expand it�

The HAP place finder service, which is working in Dublin and Cork, is now being rolled out nationally� For landlords, we now have a requirement that where they are giving a notice to quit they have to notify the Residential Tenancies Board and that means we can get services in early to help those people. We know that prevention when it is early works. We know that if somebody presents with a notice to quit to a local authority, with one week to go, more than likely he or she will fall into emergency accommodation but if we can get to him or her when the notice to quit is actually served, we can help that person stay in that accommodation with the services that are there or find new accommodation so that he or she does not have to go into emergency accommodation. We are looking at the refusal policy as well to make sure that people who refuse an offer of social housing homes have the opportunity to live in what they see as the best home for them but also that they are not blocking other people from perhaps tak-ing advantage of a home that could be offered to them at the same time�

Yesterday, I announced a new scheme under the existing mortgage to rent scheme with the new housing body in Limerick. That will protect people in their homes. Some 40% of the finance will come from my Department and the debt will be written off. I think this will be a game changer� We want to see more housing bodies moving into this space under the existing mortgage to rent scheme. Within a few weeks, I will put out an expression of interest under a new aspect of mortgage to rent that will involve a new line of financing. I think that will be very helpful� For the past nine quarters, we have seen a decrease in the number of people in long-term mortgage arrears, which is a positive development� Between now and the end of the year, we will have 200 new beds in terms of spare capacity for homeless individuals� The homelessness budget has doubled since 2014� In addition, we have €45 million for family hubs� Family hubs are our first response. They are far better than hotels and bed and breakfasts. There are 27 families in the Mater Dei facility� Since June, half of them have moved on to sustainable accommodation; the other half have not moved yet but we are working with them. When we look at Limerick and the problem they have with homeless families there - I spoke to the CEO about this yesterday - they have a programme using the hub money so that almost all of those families will either be in hubs or permanent accommodation before the end of the year� Prog-ress has been made, resources are being invested and good work is being done both by local authorities and the voluntary sector� I recognise we have to do more� We also have to recognise that sometimes we can put every support possible through social protection, the health services and the voluntary sector into providing housing supports for people and it will not be enough� It does not mean that we cannot and should not do more but sometimes it will not be enough�

The Government is doing a lot more when it comes to social house building and we are not outsourcing into the private sector. That is why when I talk about our build numbers for next year I am talking about what the local authorities and the housing bodies will build. I am talk-ing about that 3,800 number, which was going to be 3,000 until just a few weeks ago when I

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changed policy. No longer will local authorities be in the market competing with young fami-lies to purchase houses� They will move their resources and build directly as a result, which means a 30% increase that will be 3,800 units� This year we will build four times more than what we built in 2015� We are coming from a low number but every year we are ramping up and doing more� That 3,800 is before we count Part V and void conversions� If we include those, it is 5,000. If we look at the conservative number for builds next year, which is 20,000, one quarter of the stock next year will be social housing homes that the local authorities will own. When we count in acquisitions as well which will come into the housing stock and long-term leases, it brings us up to just under 8,000. So we are not too far off the 10,000 we should have in a steady state� This is only one year into Rebuilding Ireland� Progress is being made but we now we can make more. I want to have a principle here that will outlive any Ministers, whether it is me or a Minister who comes after me, that a certain percentage of stock being built every year is social housing stock and that we are not relying on Part Vs to meet that social housing stock or that it be considered as an add-on but that we are building it directly. That principle will be there so that we know that no matter when we face a time of crisis in future, there will already be houses being built for our most vulnerable citizens who need our support� It is the right thing to do and is something this Government believes in doing�

The local authorities are currently preparing land management plans that will come back to me at the end of this month and by the end of October, we will have detailed targets for each local authority on what they are going to deliver. If we are to have confidence in our numbers, we need to know exactly what is happening and that is the purpose. One of the outcomes of the housing summit was a new delivery unit in my Department to work with the local authori-ties for those new targets. I was with the housing bodies down in Limerick yesterday at their two day conference. We talked about the increasing scale and more that they can do. I made the point to them directly in my speech to the conference about the need to make sure they are building more homes for the elderly in community settings and also for the less abled� We need to make sure there are new homes being built that will not all be three-bedroom houses with an upstairs and downstairs. It will not work for everyone and we have to make sure they are being developed in the right settings� Recently I announced €12 million in additional funding for the type of grants needed to adapt and extend homes for people�

When we look at the bigger picture in terms of the national planning framework which was published earlier this week, it is all about taking advantage of the built environment that we already have� Of the new growth of 1 million people over the next 20 years, 40% will be in existing built-up areas. When we look at Limerick and the Georgian core, at the moment we have fewer than 1,000 people living there. It is not a sustainable way to grow a city. We know that Dublin has not grown in a sustainable way either, as Senator McDowell has spoken about. I will come to that point in just a minute. The national planning framework talks about the am-bitious plans for growth that we have for Limerick for its Georgian core and hinterland. If we can get housing bodies and local authorities to also link in with those plans, and they will have to because we will put it on a statutory footing, then we will be able to achieve building in the right area for all of the people’s needs that we have in our society. Affordability is key. We have to look after people who have social housing needs. We have to make sure the private sector is building houses and that people can access those houses at an affordable price� We have some excellent models that have already been put out there and have been used such as the Ó Cualann model. I was there recently with Deputy Noel Rock. The council was able to gift the land for a nominal amount to the housing body, which worked with a finance house and the city council to make these houses affordable to buy with a mortgage that was about €1,000 less than what

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the tenant was paying in rent� It was fantastic for the person I was fortunate to meet that day moving into her new home. We have affordable-to-buy models that can work. The task now is to make them work at scale which is something about which I was talking to the housing bodies yesterday in Limerick.

There are challenges in affordable-to-build in terms of certain solutions, in particular with apartments. People have mentioned height and other things. Next week I will make announce-ments of new decisions we are making in that area to help affordability when it comes to building, in particular build-to-rent where we can do a lot more� We have to have affordable schemes. We have to look at affordable finance for people who are borrowing. We have to look at criteria for people to access affordable homes. After the budget, I will be able to speak more about that. We know we will have affordable-to-build on the O’Devaney Gardens site, which is a site of considerable scale. We have the Ó Cualann model and we know it works but also the Government has provided €200 million in infrastructural funding, which essentially is a forgo-ing of the development levies and contributions to open up landbanks more quickly because we know they can be built on. It is something that is happening. I am about to sign the contracts on a number of those sites� Over the lifetime of the local infrastructure housing activation fund, LIHAF, programme, it will deliver 23,000 extra units� The average price for a two or three-bedroom property in 70% of those projects will be under €320,000. It is important to do that.

When we come to vacancy, we know it is not just about building new homes even though that is the focus of everything we do� “Build, build, always build” is the mantra in the Depart-ment. We also have to manage existing stock. In vacancy we think there might be potential but we have to be cautious when we talk about the numbers. We have to stop talking about 190,000 vacant homes. It is the figure the CSO came up with but we know within that figure are homes that were in probate, homes between lettings, homes on the market for sale and homes that are not in demand areas. We drilled down into those numbers as part of a desktop exercise in June and we believe the accurate figure in terms of vacancy in areas in high demand is more like 25,000. That was in June. Having spoken primarily to the Dublin local authori-ties since then and based on the work they have done, we think it is less than that. Even if it is less than that and it will be 5,000 or 10,000 less than that, it is still a source of supply we can bring online. It is something we are going to do. The work on this has already begun. There is an empty homes unit in my Department� Each local authority has a vacant homes team� The main urban local authorities have to report back to me by October on their vacancy hotspots in terms of the numbers they know for certain we can take advantage of by the end of the year. We are making progress on vacancies. There needs to be a suitable incentive scheme there that will work for them. We know the repair and lease scheme has not worked to date and I will be making changes to it shortly. Any additional home is welcome, which is why we are looking at vacancy as a part of this. We have to change our planning laws because we know that in Dublin, above-shop living has huge potential. Dublin City Council thinks there are potentially 4,000 such homes but they are commercially zoned or commercially designated� I will bring forward changes to allow us to very quickly move those from commercial to residential. It will also apply for the ground shop� In some larger towns and villages there are vacant shops on the street that could be a house or home with someone living in them. It goes back to the principle of building and living where we have the infrastructure already� It will be great for regenerating the towns and villages�

Coming to the point about the national planning framework and Dublin, it has been pub-lished and I think Members would enjoy looking at the document in detail because there are a

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lot of good things in it� We anticipate that of the growth by 1 million people between now and 2040, 25% will be in Dublin. Dublin has not grown efficiently. Sprawl is choking it and if it continues to grow in the way it has been, it will kill off Dublin and the rest of the country. If 25% of that growth is for Dublin we want 50% of it to happen within the M50 ring. If one takes an aerial view of particular parts of the city and looks around the Naas Road and that corridor, one will see people selling cars, trucks and furniture. They are right by the M50, the Luas and the canal� This is fantastic infrastructure that taxpayers have invested in but the land around it has not been utilised in the most efficient way. We need to bring the four local authorities together for a new type of structure to manage planning across the four local authority areas� I agree with that� It will help to properly develop Dublin� We need to do it in other cities as well� When we look at Cork, Waterford, Limerick and Galway, we have landbanks there that can be used in more strategic ways. We will need entities to help manage those landbanks back into proper use for houses, schools, hospitals and everything else we need�

I spoke to the Attorney General about compulsory purchase order, CPO, powers. I have also written to him about it� We have to achieve a proper balance between the public interest and individual rights� It does not mean we cannot CPO properties� We do CPO properties� When we move to do a CPO, it is not because the Government wants the property, we just want it back in use� Recently Dublin City Council moved to CPO about 25 or 26 properties� Two thirds of them went back into the private rental market, which is great because there is a problem with the private rental supply as well, and one third went into leasing to the local authorities, which is good as well for social housing tenants� Those rights in the Constitution are not standing in our way� They did not stand in our way in terms of bringing in the vacant site levy, the register for which will begin next year� They do not stand in our way when it comes to compulsory purchase orders, CPOs� They did not stand in our way when it came to bringing in caps on rent, which we have done in the rent pressure zones, or when it came to the Tyrrelstown amendment� We have been able to find that balance and we will continue to look to see how we can further find that balance.

The rent pressure zones are working. This year, if the trends continue as they have in the first two quarters we will see that inflation in Dublin will be 3%, that is versus 8.5% last year. That is a significant difference for someone paying rent in Dublin but it is also working in other areas� Drogheda and Greystones came under the RPZ designations as a result of the changes in rent that have been happening there. We know about the loophole when it comes to substantial refurbishment and how people are using that to get around their RPZ obligations� We will be introducing a definition of that through the Residential Tenancies Board, RTB. If it needs to be put on a legislative footing I will do so�

We are also going to reform the RTB to make it into a proper regulator for the sector over a two-year change management programme but everything is about balance� If we are going to bring in further protections for renters, which we are, we have to make sure that we are do-ing something for landlords� We cannot force people to be landlords� People complain about there being too many foreign landlords in this country� If they want the foreign landlords out then they will have to make sure there are enough domestic landlords as well, and that means incentivising them; making sure there are enough there and the incentives work for them. There is more we can do on that side and that we will do as well�

I am almost ready to conclude. Thank you, Acting Chairman, for the extra time. To speak to the points you raised yourself about pyrite and mica, we have had a number of conversations about that and a number of meetings� You are very dedicated to this and I completely under-

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stand that. I know it is a very serious problem for people in Mayo and Donegal in particular. There are a number of houses in both those counties that are in local authority ownership and we have a responsibility for those houses and for the people living in them as well� The Minis-ter of State, Deputy Damien English, has done a significant amount of work in this area. As per the conversation we had, I have raised the issue with the Minister for Finance, Deputy Dono-hoe, but I do not want to give you any false hope on whether there may be something in the budget. I also acknowledge the good work that has been done in terms of engineering solutions.

Senator Humphreys raised home sharing and short-term letting� It is a very important part of our economy and where it works it works fantastically. It is good for people who want to come here; it is good for the economy and it is good for cultural exchange and everything else but as I said before, home sharing has to mean home sharing� As we proceed to clarify this area we have to be cautious so that we do not have any unintended consequences. We have to make sure that home sharing can still continue but also we have to make sure that our laws are robust enough to make sure that people are not working around the planning laws that are in place. A licensing system is probably the best way to go. There is a group working on this. It will be led by the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport but my officials will be part of the group.

I thank Senators for their time. I apologise for commencing late. I very much appreciate the contributions that were made and the genuine proposals that have been put on the table� The Government, working with both Houses of the Oireachtas, and with the Oireachtas committee, can find further solutions that can work not just for people that are homeless whom I know are in very difficult circumstances, but there is also a hidden homelessness in terms of the people who are renting, who cannot afford to save for a deposit and people who have had to move back home to try to save for a deposit or because they could not afford their rent. We have to make sure that we are doing everything we can at each part in the supply chain into the market to look after all of the needs of citizens in this country�

28/09/2017GG00200Acting Chairman (Senator Michelle Mulherin): That concludes the business of the day� I thank the Minister. The fact that the debate has gone over time is a reflection of the gravity of this issue� Could the Acting Leader indicate when it is proposed to sit again?

28/09/2017GG00300Senator Paudie Coffey: Dé Máirt�

The Seanad adjourned at 3.45 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 3 October 2017.