deposition of superintendent r. seebeck,re: libel, et al. law suit filed against mr. caffrey

7/27/2019 Deposition of Superintendent R. Seebeck,re: Libel, et al. law suit filed against Mr. Caffrey

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In The Matter Of:

Caffrey vs.Gladwin Community Schools, et al.

RICHARD SEEBECKMay 29, 2013

Mid-Michigan Reporting LLC

1606 W Carpenter StMidland MI 48640

(989)835-9171

Min-U-Script with Word Index


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Mid-Michigan Reporting LLC (989)835-9171

RICHARD SEEBECK - May 29, 2013

1 -----------------------------------------------------------------

2 EXAMINATION INDEX

3 -----------------------------------------------------------------

4 PAGE

5 Examination By Mr. Hansen 3

6

7

8 -----------------------------------------------------------------

9 EXHIBIT INDEX

10 -----------------------------------------------------------------

11 PAGE

12 Seebeck Exhibits:

13 1 - Letter dated 10-25-12 10

14 2 - Insurance Coverage Document 32

15 3 - Notice of Special School Board Meeting 54

16 4 - Gladwin Community Schools Board of Education/

17 Superintendent Ground Rules 70

18 5 - Special Meeting Minutes 71

19

20

21

22 RICHARD SEEBECK,

23 having been first duly sworn,

24 testified on his oath as follows:

25


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1 MR. HANSEN: The record should reflect that this

2 is the date and time set for numerous depositions here

3 today.

4 Counsel, will you stipulate that this deposition and

5 the remaining ones will be used for any purposes under the

6 Court Rules?

7 MR. WALLACE: Subject to appropriate evidentiary

8 issues that can be decided by the Court, yes.

9 MR. HANSEN: All right.

10 EXAMINATION

11 BY MR. HANSEN:

12 Q State your name, please.

13 A Richard Walter Seebeck.

14 Q And how old are you?

15 A 47.

16 Q And where are you employed?

17 A Gladwin Community Schools.

18 Q And what is your position?

19 A I'm the superintendent there.

20 Q And how long have you been the superintendent there?

21 A This is the end of my eighth year.

22 Q And did you receive any special training or anything else

23 like that to be a superintendent?

24 A Master's degree in educational leadership.

25 Q And have you taken any courses on being a superintendent


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1 while you've been employed at Gladwin?

2 A I think I have 24 credit hours of coursework.

3 Q And would that include matters dealing with the Open

4 Meetings Act and the Freedom of Information Act?

5 A No.

6 Q So you haven't had any training in that whatsoever.

7 A No.

8 Q Okay. Do you see yourself as being a public official

9 representing the people through the school system?

10 A In what capacity? Like as an elected official? No.

11 Q No; just as a public official.

12 A Yes.

13 Q You're responsible to the public, right?

14 A To the Board of Education.

15 Q Okay. And -- but not to the people themselves?

16 A Through the Board of Education.

17 Q So you're responsible to the people through the Board of

18 Education, and they're responsible to the people, right?

19 A Yes.

20 Q And your basic feelings, do you think that the people have

21 the right to know how their school system is being operated?

22 A Yes.

23 Q Do you feel that you are accountable to the Board?

24 A Yes.

25 Q And you feel that you're accountable to the public.


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1 A Yes.

2 Q And do you feel that it's important that rules be complied

3 with?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And is it important that laws be complied with?

6 A Yes.

7 Q And you're in the business of educating children, and so

8 it's pretty important that the Board and yourself set a

9 proper example for them, is that not right?

10 A Yes.

11 Q Especially in terms of following the rules and those types

12 of things.

13 A Yes.

14 Q Do you feel that the public has the right to get public

15 documents pursuant to the law?

16 A Yes.

17 Q And do you feel that it's appropriate that you be held

18 accountable for your actions?

19 A Actions for --

20 Q As the superintendent.

21 A For any actions?

22 Q Well, for your actions in your performance of your duties as

23 a superintendent.

24 MR. WALLACE: I'll object to form and foundation.

25 I, frankly, don't understand the question.


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1 Q Do you feel that it's appropriate that you be held

2 accountable by the public and by the Board for your actions

3 as a school superintendent?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And do you feel that the public has the right to have the

6 deliberations of their Board be conducted in public?

7 A When appropriate.

8 Q Okay. And do you feel that the citizens have the right to

9 question you and others within the system as to how they're

10 performing --

11 A Yes.

12 Q -- their jobs? You believe in this.

13 A Yes.

14 Q Now, when we're dealing with FOIA requests, who is the FOIA

15 coordinator?

16 A Julie Shearer.

17 Q And do you know when she was appointed?

18 A I don't -- I don't know that she has been appointed.

19 Q How did she become the FOIA coordinator?

20 A Since I've been the superintendent, it's been delegated to

21 her.

22 Q And this was delegated by you?

23 A Yes.

24 Q Does she have any specialized training in how to do her job

25 as the FOIA coordinator?


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1 A No.

2 Q So she doesn't have any particular training or anything else

3 of that nature.

4 A Not that I know of.

5 Q And how does she make determinations then as to whether or

6 not FOIA requests should be honored or not?

7 A I don't know that.

8 Q You've never talked to her about it?

9 A Oh, I talk to her about it.

10 Q You're not aware as to how -- what the decision-making

11 process is for determining whether or not a FOIA request

12 should be honored?

13 A The -- if -- if she talks to me about it, then we would try

14 to comply with the FOIA request under the laws, under the

15 FOIA laws.

16 Q Do you have attorneys available for that purpose?

17 A We do.

18 Q And do you regularly make contact with them to get legal

19 advice --

20 A Yes.

21 Q -- as to whether you should grant these things or not?

22 A Yes.

23 Q So, if a FOIA request comes in, if you know the answer, then

24 you just deal with it accordingly; would that be fair to

25 say?


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1 A Yes.

2 Q If you don't know the answer, then you call the attorney.

3 A Yes.

4 Q If you're in doubt, what do you do?

5 A If we were in doubt, we wouldn't know the answer, we'd call

6 the attorney.

7 Q Now, sometimes you act as the coordinator, is that right?

8 A No.

9 Q Well, sometimes you grant requests.

10 A I would -- I would speak with Julie about a request.

11 Q Okay. Well, isn't it true that there's been times in the

12 past that there's been FOIA requests that you have denied?

13 A I can't remember.

14 Q Well, do you remember one with Sharman Caffrey that you

15 signed where she made a FOIA request and you denied it,

16 saying that the reason for it was because she was a party to

17 a lawsuit?

18 A I can't remember. I'd have to look at the documentation on

19 that one.

20 Q You don't recall that.

21 A (Witness shakes head.)

22 Q Is that right?

23 A Right.

24 Q Do you recall her coming to a public meeting just a week or

25 so ago where she had appealed the denial by you?


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1 A Yes.

2 Q Okay. And does that refresh your recollection as to whether

3 or not you denied the request?

4 MR. WALLACE: Just for the record, I'm going to

5 object that the FOIA request that I believe you're referring

6 to is not the subject of this litigation; it is not

7 relevant.

8 Go ahead and answer if you can, subject to objection.

9 A Go ahead and repeat the question if you would, Kurt.

10 Q Isn't it true that -- well, do you remember when Sharman

11 Caffrey came in there to the meeting, she had appealed a

12 denial by you, you signed the denial, and you gave the

13 reason as being that she was a party to a lawsuit and so

14 therefore she wasn't entitled to the documents?

15 A I can't remember if I signed that one or not, but I do

16 remember Sharman coming to the Board meeting and talking

17 about that.

18 Q So you don't have a specific memory as to whether you did it

19 or not.

20 A Right.

21 Q And you don't have any memory as to whether or not you've

22 ever done that?

23 A I -- I can't remember specific FOIA requests and whether I

24 responded or Julie responded.

25 Q Well, let me show you a letter which purports to be under


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1

1 your signature.

2 Have you had a chance to read that over?

3 A Yes.

4 MR. HANSEN: Let me have that marked.

5 (Seebeck Exhibit 1 was marked by the reporter.)

6 Q I showed you what was marked as being Seebeck 1.

7 Have you had a chance to read that over?

8 A Yes.

9 Q This is in fact a letter that you sent to Sharman Caffrey,

10 is that correct?

11 A Yes.

12 Q And that's your signature?

13 A It is.

14 MR. HANSEN: I move its admission.

15 MR. WALLACE: Subject to any appropriate

16 objections.

17 MR. HANSEN: All right.

18 Q Does that refresh your recollection as to whether or not you

19 ever have done any denials on the Freedom of Information

20 Act?

21 A I did that one.

22 Q Okay. And do you recall why you did that one?

23 A Well, the -- the document explains why, so that would be the

24 reason why.

25 Q No; why you were the one that did the denial.


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1

1 A I -- that might be one that I worked on. Obviously it is

2 one that I worked on.

3 Q So you do from time to time work on FOIA requests then.

4 A I do. I did that one.

5 Q Okay. And there's other times, too, correct?

6 A I don't remember.

7 Q You don't remember one way or another?

8 A I don't remember specific FOIA requests, whether I worked on

9 them and denied them or didn't.

10 Q Just in general, what's your impression as to whether you've

11 done them or not?

12 MR. WALLACE: I'm going to object, form and

13 foundation.

14 Answer if you can, please.

15 A My impression is that that one I did, but I can't remember

16 if I've done -- if I've done others or not. Not

17 specifically.

18 Q Well, I'm asking in general. Do you believe that --

19 MR. WALLACE: Same objection, form and foundation;

20 you're asking the witness to guess or speculate. He's

21 answered your question.

22 Q So, as I understand your answer, it's that you don't know

23 whether you generally have done this or not?

24 A All I can honestly answer is that I've done that one. As

25 far as specifics on others, I don't remember.


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1

1 Q Okay. Now, on this one you denied the request because you

2 said the requesting party and the public body were involved

3 in a civil action.

4 What civil action was Sharman Caffrey involved in with

5 the school system?

6 A That one was -- can I look at it again?

7 Q Sure.

8 A That one was denied because Sharman is Phil's wife and we

9 are engaged in a civil action with Phil.

10 Q Well, she wasn't a party to that action, was she?

11 A That I don't -- that I don't know how that works legally.

12 Q Well, you're married, right?

13 A I am.

14 Q And you're being sued in this situation, right?

15 A I am.

16 Q Now, your wife isn't a party to this action, is she?

17 A I guess I -- I guess I don't know. I -- we're married.

18 We're a couple. If I'm being sued, I guess she probably

19 would be.

20 Q Do you see her name anywhere on the pleadings as being a

21 defendant?

22 A No.

23 Q Do you understand here -- I mean, this is the third amended

24 complaint. You understand that these are the parties to the

25 action (indicating).


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1

1 A I -- I understand the names that are there, yeah.

2 Q So your position would be, if I'm hearing you correctly,

3 that if any member of a family is involved in litigation

4 with the School, all the rest of the members of the family

5 are also involved in it.

6 A No, I -- that's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying that,

7 in relationship to this (indicating), when -- when this FOIA

8 response was prepared, that was -- that was the assumption

9 that was made.

10 Q And why would you make that assumption?

11 A Well, that was -- that was forwarded to our counsel, and our

12 counsel sent that back for us.

13 Q So your attorney decided this.

14 A On that one.

15 Q Who's your attorney?

16 A I can't remember which attorney we used for that one. We've

17 used two attorneys.

18 Q Who are they?

19 A Mr. Wallace and Thrun Law Firm.

20 Q And you don't remember if Mr. Wallace or the Thrun Law Firm

21 did this?

22 A I don't remember which attorney drafted that response for

23 us.

24 Q Now, the minutes of the meetings are public records, aren't

25 they?


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1

1 A They are.

2 Q And they're to be made available to the public, right?

3 A Yes.

4 Q And this is both pursuant to the Open Meetings Act and also

5 the Freedom of Information Act, correct?

6 MR. WALLACE: Well, I'm going to object to form

7 and foundation. You're asking this witness to provide a

8 legal conclusion, and he's not a lawyer.

9 MR. HANSEN: If he knows.

10 Q Do you know?

11 A I'm not an expert on -- on the FOIA or Open Meetings Act.

12 Q Well, you know that the minutes are to be provided to the

13 public, right?

14 A Yes.

15 Q You know that there's two types of minutes, don't you?

16 A No -- I do now.

17 Q You didn't know that before?

18 A No.

19 Q You were a superintendent for eight years and you didn't

20 know that there was both proposed minutes and approved

21 minutes?

22 A I did not.

23 Q Well, you know that now, right?

24 A I do.

25 Q And you know that the proposed minutes are supposed to be


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1

1 provided eight working days after the meetings?

2 A I know that now.

3 Q And you know the approved minutes are supposed to be turned

4 over within five working days after they've been approved by

5 the Board?

6 MR. WALLACE: I'm going to object to form and

7 foundation. You're presupposing that there's something that

8 physically must happen as opposed to what the law states in

9 terms of availability.

10 MR. HANSEN: Is he going to answer?

11 A If you can go ahead and repeat the --

12 MR. HANSEN: Is your objection for the record

13 or --

14 MR. WALLACE: I made an objection. I believe he

15 already answered the question.

16 But go ahead and answer the question if you can.

17 A Go ahead and ask me again, if you would.

18 Q Okay. The approved minutes are to be turned over five days

19 -- made available five days after they've been approved by

20 the Board, five working days.

21 A I'd have to --

22 Q Do you know that now?

23 A I'd have to look at the law to be sure of the five days, but

24 I know that -- I know that there's a number of days that

25 they -- after which they're available. To say it's five or


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1

1 not, I can't be positive.

2 Q Now, in this matter Mr. Caffrey made a request on June 4th

3 that a copy of the minutes from the May 21 School Board

4 meeting be turned over to him. Do you recall that?

5 I show you Exhibit A that was attached to the

6 complaint.

7 A Yes.

8 Q And that request was denied, which is Exhibit B, by Ms.

9 Shearer on that same day, correct?

10 A Yes.

11 Q And the reason that was given was because they had not been

12 approved.

13 A Yes.

14 Q That was an error then, wasn't it?

15 A No, I don't believe so.

16 Q Well, if these minutes were available -- were they available

17 at that time?

18 A No.

19 Q The proposed minutes had not been typed up at that time?

20 A Let me see the -- this Freedom of Information Act request

21 says: Under Freedom of Information, I would like a copy of

22 the minutes from the May 21st School Board meeting.

23 Q That's right.

24 A It doesn't say proposed minutes. So in response -- when Ms.

25 Shearer responded to the FOIA, she responded that the


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1

1 minutes had not been yet -- have not yet been approved by

2 the Board. So that would be accurate; the minutes had not

3 yet been approved by the Board. This FOIA request does not

4 mention any proposed minutes.

5 Q Okay. It doesn't say any approved minutes, either, does it?

6 A No.

7 Q So if there were proposed minutes that were prepared, they

8 should have been turned over, shouldn't they have?

9 A From what I know at this point, yes.

10 Q So it was an error for her not to turn those over at the

11 time.

12 A No.

13 Q She was correct in saying, we're not going to give you the

14 proposed minutes because they haven't been approved yet?

15 A No. She responded to that FOIA request. That FOIA request

16 specifically asks for minutes.

17 Q That's right. It doesn't say proposed and it doesn't say

18 approved, does it?

19 A Well, it says minutes, and the minutes had not yet been

20 approved by the Board, so her assumption there was that Mr.

21 Caffrey was asking for the minutes, not the proposed

22 minutes.

23 Q How do you know that?

24 A Well, I don't know that but I'm assuming based on her

25 response. Her response is pretty clear.


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1

1 Q You never talked to her about this.

2 A Yes, I do talk to her about FOIA requests.

3 Q Did you talk to her about this one?

4 A I'm sure we did.

5 Q Okay. And what was said?

6 A I can't remember. That was a long time ago.

7 Q Well, when you got sued, you read the complaint, didn't you?

8 A Um-hum. Yes.

9 Q And you saw this in there?

10 A Yes.

11 Q It was attached to the complaint.

12 A Yes.

13 Q Did you have a discussion with her at that time about it?

14 A We did.

15 Q And what was that discussion?

16 A I -- again, I can't remember. That was a long time ago.

17 Q You have no memory of it whatsoever.

18 A I do. The only memory I have of the conversation is what's

19 written in the denial. I can't attest to what was said in

20 the conversation other than what the document actually says.

21 Q So you were talking about the document, and you don't

22 remember at all then --

23 A I don't --

24 Q -- what any conversation was that you had with her

25 concerning this request?


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1

1 MR. WALLACE: Asked and answered.

2 A Only what is written in the document. I remember our

3 conversation as it pertains to the actual written response.

4 Q Now, let me show you what's attached to the complaint as

5 Exhibit C. Take a look at that.

6 Have you had an opportunity to read that over?

7 A I have.

8 Q Now, this indicates that -- this is a request from Mr.

9 Caffrey: Would you please fax a copy of the proposed

10 minutes of the June 4th meeting.

11 And this was dated June 20th, right?

12 A Yes.

13 Q There wasn't any question in your mind what was being

14 requested at that time in terms of minutes, was there?

15 A No.

16 Q They were proposed minutes.

17 A Yes.

18 Q Okay. And there was a denial of that.

19 Well, here, let me do D first. Exhibit D, the next

20 day, June 21st, he made a request for available minutes from

21 the June 4th meeting.

22 A Yes, I remember that one.

23 Q Okay. And this was denied, as well as the 20th one, on June

24 22nd.

25 A Yes.


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2

1 Q Okay. And the reason for denying it was?

2 A That the June 4th, 2012, Gladwin Community Schools Board of

3 Education meeting minutes have not yet been approved by the

4 Board of Education; therefore, they are not available for

5 public distribution.

6 Q So that was in error then, wasn't it?

7 A No.

8 Q No? That was your answer, no?

9 A No, I don't believe it was.

10 Q So when he asked for specifically proposed minutes and she

11 denied it because they hadn't been approved, that's an

12 error, isn't it?

13 A No.

14 Q Why is that not an error?

15 A Well, you'll see in the FOIA request that he's asking for

16 available minutes, so there were no -- again, Ms. Shearer's

17 response speaks for itself, that the available minutes were

18 not approved by the Board.

19 Q Well, available minutes would include proposed minutes,

20 wouldn't they?

21 A Well, that would be subject to interpretation, and her

22 interpretation, obviously, based on her response, was that

23 they were not approved by the Board.

24 Q Well, they weren't approved by the Board; they were proposed

25 at the time, weren't they?


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2

1 A Well, no, they were -- they -- the request was for available

2 minutes. And her response says that the available minutes

3 -- there were no available minutes because they were not yet

4 approved by the Board.

5 Q There were proposed minutes at that time.

6 A There were.

7 Q Okay. So she was ignorant, is that what you're saying?

8 A I don't know if I would use the word ignorant or not. What

9 I would say is that she -- when she responded to that, her

10 response, again, speaks for itself, that there weren't

11 available minutes; they had not yet been approved by the

12 Board.

13 Q How about Exhibit C, the proposed minutes? Now, when she

14 denied that because they hadn't been approved, that was in

15 error then, right?

16 A Yes.

17 Q Now, you signed an affidavit saying that these denials were

18 done in good faith. What do you base that on?

19 A I guess I don't understand the question.

20 Q Well, you signed an affidavit that was filed with this Court

21 that indicated that all the actions that were done on the

22 FOIA requests were done in good faith.

23 A Yes.

24 Q Okay. What did you base that on?

25 A That they were done in good faith.


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2

1 I asked you.

2 A And I would respond I based it on my belief.

3 Q Okay. So you never talked to her about this at all.

4 A Yes, I have.

5 Q Okay. And what was that conversation?

6 A I -- again, I can't remember the specifics of the

7 conversations.

8 Q Well, what was the general nature of the conversation?

9 A That we should follow the rules and respond appropriately.

10 Q Okay. And did you then discuss that they weren't followed

11 in this situation?

12 A We haven't had that discussion.

13 Q You've never had that discussion.

14 A No; we -- we've talked about what we -- what we do when we

15 respond to FOIA requests.

16 Specific to this one here, we've talked about that now

17 we know that we -- that there is a difference between

18 proposed minutes and approved minutes, and in the one that

19 you just referred to where Mr. Caffrey had asked for

20 proposed minutes, we've talked that that is one that we

21 should have granted, knowing what we know now, but didn't.

22 Q She didn't know, is that it?

23 A We -- no, she didn't. We didn't.

24 Q Neither one of you knew.

25 A (Witness shakes head.)


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2

1 Q Is that right?

2 A That's right.

3 Q Now, you had three requests here; I mean, one was just for

4 minutes, one was for available minutes, and one was for

5 proposed minutes. That wouldn't key you in that maybe

6 there's a difference involved?

7 A No.

8 Q It wouldn't.

9 Now, in your answer to the complaint, you denied that

10 you had violated the Freedom of Information Act pursuant to

11 these requests. You denied those allegations as being

12 untrue, correct?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Okay. But, in fact, as to at least one of these, it was

15 true that you were in violation of the Act.

16 MR. WALLACE: Excuse me. Let me object to the

17 question. You're asking for a legal conclusion from a

18 nonlawyer witness, and you're excluding -- my objection is

19 as to form and foundation because you're excluding what

20 ultimately occurred going forward as it would relate to

21 those requests.

22 Q I show you Paragraph 26.

23 A Okay.

24 Q And you read that paragraph, didn't you, before you filed

25 your answer in this case?


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2

1 MR. WALLACE: Counsel, let the record reflect that

2 the answer was drafted by the attorney of record for all of

3 the defendants and so I'm going to object to form and

4 foundation.

5 MR. HANSEN: Okay.

6 Q Well, as far as foundation is concerned then, you had a

7 special meeting on December 24th of 2012, didn't you?

8 A We did.

9 Q And the answer to the complaint you had prior to that point

10 in time, didn't you?

11 A I can't remember. I'd have to look at the documents.

12 Q You can't remember whether or not you had the answer prior

13 to that time?

14 A This answer (indicating)?

15 Q The answer to the complaint.

16 MR. WALLACE: I'm going to object. You're showing

17 the witness the complaint, not the answer. Form and

18 foundation.

19 A I can't remember when -- without looking at it to see the

20 dates, I can't remember.

21 Q Well, the purpose of that special meeting was to review

22 certain documents, right?

23 MR. WALLACE: I'm going to object. There's going

24 to be no questions about what occurred at that special

25 meeting.


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2

1 A I'm confused as to what that time is. Tell me again what

2 that time is that you're asking about.

3 Q Prior to the 24th meeting and after it.

4 A I guess if your question is -- if your question is, did I

5 read it before or after that, the answer would be yes.

6 Q Okay. So before it was filed, you knew that you had denied

7 the allegations in that as being untrue.

8 A No.

9 Q You didn't know that.

10 A No. At that time, no.

11 Q Well, when did you find it out?

12 A I'm trying to remember, and I can't remember exactly when --

13 I can't remember.

14 Q You don't remember denying liability then for failing to

15 turn any of these things over to -- any of these requests

16 for minutes.

17 MR. WALLACE: Form and foundation.

18 Answer if you can, please.

19 A You're going to have to ask me again.

20 Q Is there a problem with these questions that you can't

21 understand them?

22 A Not at all, but you're going to have to ask me again.

23 Q Why is that?

24 A So I understand the question.

25 Q Okay. You did in fact deny, did you not, any liability for


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2

1 failing to turn over these minutes, as being untrue, right?

2 A If you're referring to No. 26 --

3 Q That's the only one we've been talking about.

4 A Yeah, No. 26, yes.

5 Q Okay. And that's not true, is it, because you did not in

6 fact -- you were supposed to turn over at least the proposed

7 ones. You admit that, right?

8 MR. WALLACE: Excuse me, form and foundation.

9 You're asking this witness to come to a legal conclusion

10 based upon pleadings filed by defense counsel of record in

11 this case.

12 Q You may answer.

13 A In answer to that question, the -- knowing what we know now,

14 there is some question that perhaps the proposed minutes

15 should have been turned over.

16 How that plays out legally between the lawyers and the

17 judge, I can't answer because I'm neither a lawyer nor a

18 judge.

19 But I -- in my answer, what I'm -- what I'm trying to

20 convey to you is that, while there is the possibility that

21 the proposed minutes should have been made available to your

22 client and there is the possibility that we made a mistake

23 in doing that, how that sorts itself out legally, I am

24 unsure. I don't have the expertise to know that. And

25 perhaps the only person that does is the judge.


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2

1 Q When you get sued -- let me ask you this: Do you get sued

2 very often, Gladwin Community Schools?

3 MR. WALLACE: I'm going to object. It's

4 irrelevant, it's immaterial, form and foundation.

5 Go ahead and answer if you can, please.

6 A We do get sued from time to time, yes.

7 Q Okay. And when a suit gets filed against you --

8 MR. WALLACE: May I have a continuing objection?

9 MR. HANSEN: Yes.

10 Q When a suit gets filed against you, you have a procedure for

11 dealing with that.

12 A Yes.

13 Q And what is that procedure?

14 A We call the insurance company and we call the attorney.

15 MR. WALLACE: I'm going to have a continuing

16 objection to any reference to insurance.

17 Q So, you say we call the attorney. Who is we?

18 A Well, it may be me or it may be Ms. Shearer.

19 Q And so when the lawsuit gets filed and served, it gets

20 turned over to one of the members of the Board, right?

21 A No.

22 Q Well, that's who's served, isn't it?

23 A Well, if they're served, they would get served a copy of it.

24 Q Okay. Well, let's just jump to this case. In this

25 particular case, Mr. Withrow was served, right?


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3

1 A I'm trying to remember, and I can't remember if he was -- if

2 -- I can't remember if I was physically present to see him

3 served or not.

4 Q Well, didn't he bring you the copy of the complaint?

5 A Brad brought me a copy of a complaint. I don't -- I don't

6 remember there -- I don't remember which one that he brought

7 me, but he did bring me a copy of one.

8 Q Brad?

9 A Brad, yes. Brad Withrow.

10 Q Brad who?

11 A Withrow.

12 Q All right. Did you have any discussion at that time about

13 the lawsuit?

14 A I can't remember.

15 Q You don't remember anything whatsoever about that.

16 A I -- I don't remember if he said anything and what my reply

17 could've been. Again, I don't remember.

18 Q Did you contact any of the other Board members?

19 A Oh, I'm sure I did.

20 Q And who did you contact?

21 A I probably contacted all of them.

22 Q And did you have any discussion about what to do with this

23 complaint?

24 A No.

25 Q What was your discussion, if any, that you had with any of


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3

1 the Board members?

2 A Just to alert them to the fact that we had that.

3 Q Did you see to it that they got a copy of the complaint?

4 A I can't remember if -- if they did or didn't.

5 Q Was there any discussion about the merits of the claim?

6 A Not -- I can't remember.

7 Q Did you talk to them over the phone?

8 A Yes.

9 Q And did you e-mail them?

10 A I can't remember if I e-mailed them or not.

11 Q Did you ask them how they wanted to proceed?

12 A No.

13 Q Who made the decision to contact the insurance company?

14 A Me.

15 Q And how is it that you made that decision?

16 A When we -- when we got the lawsuit, I called and notified

17 Thrun Law Firm, and Thrun Law Firm asked that I notify our

18 insurance company.

19 Q So you remember contacting Thrun Law Firm, and you remember

20 them advising you to contact your insurance company.

21 A Yes.

22 MR. WALLACE: To the extent that invades the

23 attorney/client privilege, I'm going to object and ask that

24 it be stricken.

25 Q Well, I'm going to show you -- let's mark this.


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3

1 MR. WALLACE: Form and foundation. You have not

2 established that this witness has any expertise regarding

3 insurance contracts.

4 MR. HANSEN: He doesn't need any.

5 A Let me see what you're -- ask me that again, if you would.

6 Q Doesn't that say what the member is under that policy?

7 A It says: Member means the School District or entity named

8 in the declarations.

9 Q Okay. So if this is the insurance policy that covers the

10 school, the member would be the School District, right?

11 A Well, it says: Member means the School District or entity

12 named in the declarations, the Board of Education of the

13 School District or entity named in the declarations, and all

14 former, present, or future elected, appointed, or employed

15 officials of the School District or entity.

16 And I'm not an insurance policy person so it says a lot

17 of things there but I'm unsure as to what that might mean.

18 Q Do you think you might be a member under that policy

19 according to that definition?

20 MR. WALLACE: Excuse me. Form and foundation.

21 You're asking for the witness to speculate.

22 A I mean, I don't know. I don't -- again, I'm not an expert

23 on what that all means.

24 Q Well, from your own knowledge, are you a member under the --

25 underneath the SET SEG policy?


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3


2 A To the extent am I covered under the policy?

3 Q I didn't say that. Are you a member?

4 A I don't know -- I don't know what member means. I don't

5 understand insurance lingo.

6 Q You don't understand this provision as to what the

7 definition is?

8 MR. WALLACE: Asked and answered, form and

9 foundation.

10 A No.

11 Q So, you read that paragraph and you, as the superintendent

12 of schools, can't figure out whether or not you're a member,

13 is that right?

14 A A member of what? I don't know.

15 Q Of the SET SEG.

16 A I don't know. I guess I'm unclear as to what member

17 actually means, and to answer that question, I'd have to

18 answer I don't know.

19 Q So you just don't know anything about the insurance policy

20 at all.

21 A I didn't say that.

22 Q Well, what do you know about it?

23 A I know that it -- I know that SET SEG is our insurance

24 carrier.

25 Q That's all.


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3

1 A That's all I -- that's all I know. As far as details of the

2 plan, I'd have to go back and read our documents, but, no, I

3 don't have that stuff committed to memory so, no, I don't

4 know.

5 Q You don't have any idea.

6 A I don't know. I've answered your question.

7 Q So, if I understand correctly, it's that Mr. Withrow was

8 served, he turned it over to you, you called your attorney,

9 and your attorney said to call the insurance company, and

10 you advised the Board about the suit but you don't remember

11 anything else; is that fair?

12 MR. WALLACE: Well, excuse me, form and

13 foundation. The record will reflect what he already told

14 you in terms of his communication with the Board. I think

15 you're mischaracterizing the previous testimony.

16 A Mr. Withrow gave me a copy of the -- of a suit. I can't

17 remember; there have been several renditions. He gave me a

18 copy of it. I called the School District's attorney, Thrun

19 Law Firm. They advised me to let our insurance company

20 know.

21 Q The Board never authorized you to contact the insurance

22 company, did it?

23 A No.

24 Q Now I want to talk about your phone records. Do you keep

25 phone records?


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3

1 MR. WALLACE: Excuse me, counsel. For the record,

2 I'm going to object. The subject of the phone records were

3 adjudicated in a previous litigation filed by you on behalf

4 of your client.

5 The Court dismissed the case with prejudice against the

6 plaintiffs and in favor of defendants, and all issues with

7 regard to the phone records have been resolved and are not

8 properly at issue in this case.

9 That having been said, go ahead and try to answer the

10 question.

11 A Go ahead and ask me again.

12 Q Do you keep phone records for the school phones?

13 A We keep phone bills.

14 Q And they're records, right?

15 A They're phone bills.

16 Q And how do you keep them?

17 A They're stored in our -- in our storage room.

18 Q Okay. You started with Verizon back in 2011, is that right?

19 A I can't remember when we started with Verizon.

20 Q Well, prior to that time, it was Nextel, is that right?

21 MR. WALLACE: Same objection. If you're referring

22 to cell phone records that were the subject of previous

23 litigation, please move on to a different subject of

24 inquiry.

25 MR. HANSEN: Well, the issue in this case is


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3

1 whether or not they keep the records, and so I want to know

2 whether -- he's signed an affidavit saying that they didn't

3 keep records, they never maintained them, and now he's

4 saying that they do maintain them, so I want to inquire into

5 it.

6 MR. WALLACE: Counsel, let's get something very

7 clear on the record here. You intentionally refer to phone

8 bills and phone records as you choose. There are

9 distinctions between phone call logs and phone bills, and

10 you intentionally try to create a fiction by interchanging

11 your description of phone records. All right?

12 The call logs have been adjudicated. If you want to

13 ask him about phone bills, please do. But unless you

14 identify what you're asking about as phone bills, we're

15 going to end this inquiry right here and now.

16 Q Okay. So there's a difference between phone bills and phone

17 logs?

18 A Yes.

19 Q What is the difference?

20 A The phone bills are what we get from the phone company that

21 have just the number of minutes that have been used and the

22 cost for those -- for those minutes.

23 Q And then the phone logs?

24 A Call details are what I call them. Call details lay out

25 which numbers were called by which cell phone.


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3

1 Q What do you do with them?

2 A We don't get them.

3 Q You never got them.

4 A We got them from -- we got some phone logs from Verizon --

5 I'm sorry, from Nextel, but we don't get -- I guess I should

6 say -- you're calling them logs. So that we're clear, we

7 call them phone bills. The phone bills only have the number

8 of minutes used and the cost for those minutes.

9 The other thing that you call phone logs, I'm going to

10 ask, are you talking about call detail or what exactly are

11 you referring to when you say phone logs?

12 Q Well, I'll call them details. Well, let me ask you: This

13 is where the number is on that was called and the amount of

14 minutes, right?

15 A Those are called -- those are details.

16 Q So you don't keep the details?

17 A Some we have, from Nextel. But from Verizon, Verizon does

18 not provide us with call details.

19 Q It never has.

20 A It never -- it never has -- and, again, it goes back to, and

21 I -- it gets confusing and that's why I have to -- I want to

22 try to be able to answer your question, because it goes back

23 to the other court case and how all that was all sorted out

24 and adjudicated by the judge and the attorneys.

25 So I can't be sure of how all of that -- how all of


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4

1 Q When you have meetings, how are special meetings set up?

2 A Explain what you mean by how they're -- by how they're set

3 up.

4 Q Well, you explain it to me. If you're going to have a

5 special meeting, how does it get set up?

6 A If there's a decision to have a special meeting?

7 Q Yes.

8 A Then we post the special meeting and then we have it.

9 Q And who posts it?

10 A It can vary. As far as who actually delivers the postings,

11 tapes them on all the doors and that type of thing, it

12 depends on who's available.

13 Q Who prepares the notices?

14 A Julie.

15 Q And who decides what goes in the notice?

16 A Julie.

17 Q And where does she get the information from to determine

18 what should go into the --

19 A Well, I would -- I would --

20 Q -- notice?

21 A If there's going to be a special meeting of the Board, I

22 would say, Julie, we're going to have a -- we need to have a

23 special meeting of the Board, and then she would type up the

24 notice and we would post them.

25 Q Okay. For the 24th, December 24th, that special meeting,


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4

1 you're familiar with that, aren't you?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Who determined that you needed that special meeting?

4 A The -- well, the --

5 MR. WALLACE: To the extent it invades the

6 attorney/client privilege, I'm going to object.

7 A I guess that we -- when Mr. Wallace called me and explained

8 the -- the situation, then I notified the Board president of

9 the -- of the potential need for a special Board meeting,

10 and then from there, it was posted and held.

11 Q And what did you tell her?

12 A That I had spoken with Mr. Wallace, our attorney, and he had

13 some documents that were time-sensitive and needed to be

14 reviewed by the Board immediately, and it would require a

15 special meeting of the Board to do that.

16 Q And what was the purpose of the meeting?

17 MR. WALLACE: I'm going to object to the extent it

18 invades the attorney/client privilege.

19 You can go ahead and answer as best you can.

20 A Well, the purpose is written in the meeting minutes. And I

21 can't -- I can't remember exactly what was written, but

22 you've been provided with those minutes, so it's written in

23 there.

24 Q You don't remember what the purpose was?

25 MR. WALLACE: Counsel, the question has been asked


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4

1 A It says: For the purpose of reviewing legal documents

2 provided by Attorney D. Wallace on matters relating to

3 current litigation.

4 Q What does it say before it says: For the purpose of?

5 A It says: Resolution offered by Sally Hightower, seconded by

6 Lisa Schwager, to enter closed session at 9:31 a.m.

7 Q Okay. So that's what the resolution was, to go into closed

8 session, but that's not what the purpose of the meeting was,

9 was it?

10 A Yes, the purpose for -- for the purpose of reviewing legal

11 documents provided by Attorney D. Wallace on matters

12 relating to current litigation.

13 Q New business: Closed session for attorney/client privileged

14 correspondence.

15 Where does it say what the purpose of this special

16 meeting was?

17 MR. WALLACE: Asked and answered.

18 A It says: For the purpose of reviewing legal documents

19 provided by Attorney D. Wallace on matters relating to

20 current litigation.

21 Q Okay. That's the only thing. That's the only thing that it

22 says in the minutes, right?

23 MR. WALLACE: Form and foundation. The document

24 is as written.

25 Q Now, you were at the meeting, right?


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4

1 to object to form and foundation.

2 A Yeah, and I'm confused as to what -- as to what you mean by

3 hire. I -- Mr. Wallace is approved to file -- by the Board

4 minutes was approved to represent the counterclaim. That's

5 the best way that I can answer it.

6 Q And this is an individual lawsuit by you and these other

7 members that we've named against Mr. Caffrey.


9 Q Correct?

10 MR. WALLACE: You're asking for a legal

11 conclusion.

12 A That I don't know -- I don't know the legal -- the legal

13 terminology of it.

14 Q Well, you're claiming that he abused the process against

15 you, that he's slandered you, he's libeled you, and a whole

16 host of other things, is that right?

17 A Again, the document speaks for itself and I don't have it in

18 front of me and can't review it.

19 Q It's in front of you now (indicating). You can review it.

20 MR. WALLACE: We'll stipulate that the

21 counterclaim is as written and as filed.

22 I'm going to object to the form and foundation and the

23 relevance of these questions.

24 A Is that -- do you want me to read each of these? Is that

25 what you'd have me do?


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4

1 Q Well, you're telling me that you reviewed this document --

2 this counterclaim before. Certainly you know whether or not

3 you're suing Mr. Caffrey individually or not, don't you?

4 MR. WALLACE: I'll stipulate that Mr. Caffrey sued

5 all these individuals and that they filed a counterclaim

6 against him as written and as reflected by the court record

7 in this case.

8 Q So I'm asking whether or not you individually hired Mr.

9 Wallace to represent you for your individual claim.

10 MR. WALLACE: I'm going to object to your

11 characterization of hire, form and foundation, and you're

12 now invading the attorney/client privilege.

13 A All I can answer is that the -- this document, counterclaim,

14 speaks for itself. I'm not a legal expert beyond that.

15 Q You don't have to be a legal expert to know if you're suing

16 somebody and if you hired an attorney to sue somebody for

17 you. Did you hire an attorney to sue somebody, that

18 somebody being Mr. Caffrey?

19 A Again, without -- without knowing exactly what you mean by

20 did I hire, what does hire mean, you know, I -- I guess I

21 would have to go back to this --

22 Q You're telling the judge in this case you don't know what

23 hire means?

24 A That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, this

25 document and the Board's action on this document speaks for


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5

1 itself. So without getting into semantics about what it

2 means, I can only say that this -- this speaks for itself.

3 This document does.

4 Q Who's paying for the representation in this -- for this

5 counterclaim?

6 A Nobody.

7 Q Nobody?

8 A Nobody.

9 Q So it's free.

10 A Yes.

11 Q Okay. So Mr. Wallace is representing you pro bono then.

12 A Yes.

13 Q And all the other members pro bono, also.

14 A That I don't know.

15 Q But you do know that you're being represented for free.

16 A I do.

17 Q Is that right?

18 MR. WALLACE: And I'm going to object that that

19 all be stricken. That invades the attorney/client

20 privilege.

21 Q The school's not paying for any of this.

22 A No.

23 Q I just want to see this in my mind. You're getting sued,

24 you file individual counterclaims that the School has

25 authorized and they're getting it done for free?


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5

1 A Yes.

2 MR. WALLACE: I'm going to object, you're invading

3 the attorney/client privilege.

4 MR. HANSEN: Well, we aren't.

5 MR. WALLACE: You are.

6 MR. HANSEN: I'm not asking him what he said to

7 you and I'm not asking what you said to him. I'm asking

8 what happened in this particular situation.

9 MR. WALLACE: Your legitimate inquiry, if there is

10 any, and I don't believe there is, is whether or not there

11 is any public money being used as it relates to this

12 litigation counterclaim. And if you want to ask that

13 question, then ask it. That's a legitimate question.

14 Q Is the insurance company paying for this?

15 A No.

16 Q Nobody is?

17 A As far as I know, no.

18 MR. HANSEN: I didn't realize you were such a

19 great guy.

20 MR. WALLACE: Well, sometimes extraordinary

21 circumstances require extraordinary action.

22 Q Did you talk to --

23 MR. CAFFREY: Are you doing that for me?

24 MR. HANSEN: Yeah, right.

25 Q In the December 24th minutes it indicates that: Be it


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5

1 resolved to authorize David Wallace, attorney appointed and

2 hired by SET SEG, to pursue counterclaims.

3 Does that mean that SET SEG is paying for this?

4 A No.

5 Q How do you know that?

6 A We haven't submitted anything to SET SEG regarding the

7 counterclaim.

8 Q Well, do you know if Mr. Wallace has?

9 A That I don't know.

10 Q Okay. The fact that you haven't submitted it doesn't mean

11 that you won't be in the future, is that correct?

12 A I -- I can't suppose what could happen in the future.

13 Q Well, what it comes down to is this: You may not have

14 submitted any requests for bills at this point in time but

15 that doesn't mean that you won't be doing it in the future.

16 MR. WALLACE: Object, form and foundation. You're

17 asking the witness to speculate.

18 A Are you --

19 Q Are you, sir?

20 A I don't know what you're asking.

21 Q Okay, I'll accept that. You got a five-year contract?

22 A Yes.

23 Q Any other legal action necessary in Cases 6665 and 6380-CZ,

24 what does that mean?

25 A It means any other legal action necessary in the cases


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5

1 numbered and it gives the two numbers. It means exactly

2 what it says.

3 Q And what does it mean: And any others as applicable?

4 A The same thing. It means exactly what it says.

5 Q What's that? What other actions are there as applicable?

6 A It -- I don't know that -- I don't know what they are, but

7 any others as applicable, it means exactly what it says.

8 Q So you don't know what as applicable means?

9 A Of course I do. It means as it might apply. And --

10 Q So this is future things?

11 A No, it -- it just means any as applicable, so if there are

12 other things that apply to those cases, that Mr. Wallace is

13 authorized to do that.

14 Q Well, it says: And any others as applicable.

15 Don't you read that as being other cases?

16 A I don't -- not as other cases. As other things involving

17 those cases.

18 Q That's how you read that.

19 A (Witness nods head.)

20 MR. HANSEN: Do we have a notice in there of the

21 special meeting? Was that part of the packet, do you know,

22 Mr. Wallace? I think I requested that.

23 MR. WALLACE: Well, if I already gave it to you,

24 it may not be included. I didn't duplicate anything that

25 you already had.


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5

1 Q And what documents were you referring to?

2 MR. WALLACE: I'm going to object that you're

3 invading the attorney/client privilege.

4 Don't answer.

5 MR. HANSEN: Well, this is a conversation between

6 these two people, not any conversation that was had with

7 you.

8 MR. WALLACE: Doesn't matter. It's attorney/

9 client privilege. You know full well that there's got to be

10 some communication between a Board president and a

11 superintendent when anything in the School District happens.

12 It doesn't make it any less attorney/client privilege.

13 Q Well, so the reason why you went there then was to discuss

14 attorney/client privileged correspondence, right?

15 A We met to discuss the documents provided by Mr. Wallace.

16 Q Okay. That's not what it says, is it?

17 A It says we scheduled a closed session for attorney/client

18 privileged correspondence, yes.

19 Q So then when you came out, then you approved the answer to

20 be filed, right?

21 MR. WALLACE: I'm going to object. The minutes

22 are as stated. They're the official record. Any inquiry

23 beyond that invades the attorney/client privilege.

24 Q Well, I want to know, --

25 MR. WALLACE: Let's get on with it.


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6

1 has been filed that causes you any concern for your safety?

2 A Yes.

3 Q What was that?

4 A Just an overwhelming feeling that Mr. Caffrey's animosity

5 towards me and what -- if his need to see my demise is

6 unmet, what he might do.

7 Q What do you mean by demise?

8 A To -- I guess in some way, shape, or form, Mr. Caffrey holds

9 me accountable for what happened or would like to hold me

10 accountable for what happened to his daughter.

11 Q Has he ever threatened you physically?

12 A Other than that conversation on the telephone, no.

13 Q And what physical threat was that -- which would have been,

14 what, three years ago now?

15 A I don't know how long ago it was but it's been some time.

16 Just repeated vulgarity and obscene language, you're

17 gonna go, I won't rest until you're gone or done.

18 Again, I don't know the exact details, exact wording.

19 Q He was referring to you losing your job, right?

20 A I don't know that.

21 Q Well, what did you take it as being at the time?

22 A I took it as being threatening. It --

23 Q Did you ask for a PPO at the time?

24 A No.

25 Q And why not?


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6

1 A Because I -- I felt that it would only inflame an already

2 volatile situation.

3 Q But nothing has happened over the last three years.

4 A Nothing -- nothing like that, but the continued -- the

5 continued animosity, I suppose, is still there, in my belief

6 and in my feeling.

7 Q While this case has been pending and the other case was

8 pending, there hasn't been any issues whatsoever, has there?

9 A The cases in and of themselves?

10 Q No; Mr. Caffrey. He hasn't even talked to you, has he?

11 MR. WALLACE: Well, he answered the question that

12 it's representative of the cases in themselves, if I

13 understand his answer.

14 MR. HANSEN: I didn't understand his answer to

15 that effect.

16 A You're asking me --

17 Q Has there been any events whatsoever which would cause you

18 any concern for your personal safety while either one of

19 these actions have been pending?

20 A Yes.

21 Q What was that?

22 A The overwhelming feeling that I have that Mr. Caffrey's

23 animosity toward me and what his -- the impact of his

24 animosity may be on me or my family, yes, I have that

25 feeling.


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6

1 Q And that feeling was developed three years ago.

2 A It began three years ago.

3 Q And nothing has -- what has occurred since that time that

4 has aggravated it?

5 A The -- the -- these types of actions, the litigation, the

6 lawsuits, I guess the small-town rumormill and what comes

7 back to me from conversations he has with others at the

8 coffee shop and elsewhere.

9 Q Any threats whatsoever?

10 A Directly from Mr. Caffrey? Not since that phone call.

11 Q And there was no physical threats at that time.

12 A I would argue that there was.

13 Q And what was the physical threat?

14 A I won't stop until you're done, those types of things.

15 Q But he never threatened anything physically, did he?

16 A I felt physically threatened.

17 Q So that's it.

18 A (Witness nods head.)

19 Q Has any member of the Board ever told you that they're

20 afraid of Mr. Caffrey?

21 A I can't remember individuals and what comments they may have

22 made and I couldn't attach them to any individual person.

23 I know that there have been -- there's a feeling

24 amongst the Board, I guess, if I can speak to that.

25 Q Well, has anybody said that, hey, I'm afraid of him?


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6

1 about that I -- that I do need to be worried and should

2 think about protecting myself and my family.

3 Q How about the individual Board members; did they say they

4 wanted a protective order?

5 A No.

6 Q Did they even know you were seeking a protective order?

7 A I wasn't seeking a protective order. A personal protection

8 order, is that what you're referring to?

9 Q Well, there was a motion filed for a protective order to

10 keep the -- Mr. Caffrey from talking to you or Ms. Shearer

11 or any of the other defendants.

12 A Yes, the Board was aware -- the Board was aware of that.

13 MR. WALLACE: I'm going to object to the form and

14 foundation. The motion speak for itself, there's a record

15 of the hearing, and to infer that that somehow was a request

16 for a PPO is improper.

17 Q When did this discussion take place with the Board members?

18 A I don't -- I don't remember when.

19 Q You don't remember when; you remember talking to some

20 members but you don't know when, but you think that they

21 wanted you to seek a protective order for yourself, is that

22 correct?

23 MR. WALLACE: I'm going to object to the form and

24 foundation of the question. You're mischaracterizing the

25 testimony.


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6

1 Q Well, tell me what it is. Tell me all of the conversations

2 that you had with Board members concerning seeking a

3 protective order.

4 A I -- I can't remember all the conversations that I may have

5 had with individual Board members regarding that.

6 Q Well, tell me one.

7 A It would have been -- it would just have been to notify them

8 and say Mr. Wallace is going to pursue a protective order to

9 try to keep Mr. Caffrey from bullying, harassing, or

10 otherwise contacting you in an aggressive manner.

11 It would have been something like that that I would

12 have notified them that that was going to happen.

13 Q Did they ever -- did anybody ever tell you that he was even

14 seeking to talk to them, other than Mr. Dion and Ms.

15 Hightower?

16 A I don't think so, no.

17 Q So then you -- you let them know that you were going to seek

18 a protective order for them to prevent him from bullying, is

19 that what you're saying?

20 MR. WALLACE: Don't -- don't respond to the

21 question.

22 Counsel, I am going to object to the form and

23 foundation of the question and your mischaracterization of

24 what's already been indicated on the record.

25 You can go ahead and try to answer if you understand


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6

1 the question.

2 A Well, the -- in answer to your question, I notified them

3 that that was going to happen. And that's -- that's the

4 extent of what I can answer.

5 Q Did you notify Mr. Dion that that was going to happen?

6 A I'm sure I did but, again, dates and times of it, I couldn't

7 tell you exactly when.

8 Q Did you notify Ms. Hightower that this was going to happen?

9 A Again, I'm sure I did. I would've notified the Board that

10 that was going to happen.

11 Q And they wanted that to happen?

12 A Yes.

13 Q Well, Ms. Hightower had a conversation with Mr. Caffrey

14 relative to some pornography that was on your Twitter

15 account; you're aware of that, aren't you?

16 MR. WALLACE: Counsel, I'm going to object.

17 That's a gross mischaracterization of fact. You know that

18 that is untrue.

19 MR. HANSEN: Well, let the witness tell me it's

20 untrue.

21 MR. WALLACE: And it's not part of what's at issue

22 in this case.

23 So if you want to respond, go ahead. If you don't,

24 don't.

25 A Well, go ahead and ask the question again.


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1 Q They weren't told to do that?

2 MR. WALLACE: Let the record reflect that I would

3 instruct every client in every case that they should not

4 have direct contact with the other parties to the

5 litigation. So if you want to go beyond that, go ahead.

6 Q Well, in your mind, is it illegitimate for Mr. Caffrey to

7 have conversations with these people about matters that have

8 nothing to do with this lawsuit?

9 A All I know is that we were told by Mr. Wallace that, while

10 we were engaged in litigation brought on by Mr. Caffrey,

11 that we should not be engaging in conversations with him.

12 Q Okay. And so did you tell the other members that?

13 A I'm sure I did.

14 Q And when was that?

15 A I can't remember the date and time.

16 Q So how come you're sure then?

17 A Well, because I -- I remember doing it. I just don't know

18 what day and what time I did it.

19 Q So why would they talk to him then after they'd been

20 instructed not to?

21 A Again, you'd have to ask the individual Board member.

22 Q You never signed any affidavit for purposes of this

23 protective order, did you?

24 A I don't think I did.

25 Q Nobody else did, either, did they?


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1 A I don't think they did.

2 Q Tell me one thing that Mr. Caffrey has done since the advent

3 of this litigation, both cases, one thing that he's done to

4 intimidate you, harass you personally.

5 A The -- there was an incident in our -- in our office where

6 Mr. Caffrey had been calling about wanting information

7 through the various FOIAs that he's filed, and when he

8 didn't get the information that he had requested, he came up

9 to the office and was extremely agitated.

10 He frightened the -- the women that worked in the

11 office, Mrs. Shearer and others, with his behavior, and --

12 and at one point in time threw some documents at Mrs.

13 Shearer, as it was reported to me.

14 Q That would have been before this litigation, right?

15 A No. This litigation was already going on at that point.

16 Q So when was it?

17 A I can't remember exactly the date and time of it.

18 Q But you weren't asking for a protective order for those

19 folks in your office, were you?

20 MR. WALLACE: Counsel -- don't answer.

21 Form and foundation. You're characterizing this as a

22 personal protection order when it was a procedural motion

23 pursuant to court rule to stop verbal engagements between

24 litigants outside of the context of the litigation. The

25 motion was that all communication be between the lawyers who


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1 represented the various parties to the pending litigation.

2 So, the record will reflect that.

3 Now, if you want to go ahead and continue to ask these

4 silly questions, that's your prerogative.

5 Q Now, you have some ground rules, is that right?

6 A We do.

7 Q Okay. And part of that ground rule is that you -- there's

8 to be no surprises at the meeting, right?

9 A That's part of it.

10 Q And what do you mean by that?

11 MR. WALLACE: Well, form and foundation. You're

12 personifying the so-called ground rules. I think that may

13 be a mischaracterization.

14 MR. HANSEN: Do you want to mark that.


16 Q Showing you Seebeck 4, those are the ground rules?

17 A They are.

18 Q What's it mean when it says no surprises at the meeting?

19 A Well, that we try to -- we try to ensure open communication

20 between the Board and I, so if there are questions about

21 items that we're working on, that we should be communicating

22 with one another to get those things straightened out so

23 that we don't surprise one another at the Board meeting when

24 we may not have, you know, the ability to get information

25 that we would need to answer the questions appropriately.


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1 Q So what happens if somebody does surprise you?

2 A Nothing.

3 Q So how is this a ground rule then?

4 A Well, they're just -- they're ground rules that we try to

5 follow in order to ensure good Board/superintendent working

6 relationships and communication.

7 Q So people can surprise you then at the meeting if they

8 choose to do so.

9 A Well, sure.


11 Q I show you what's been marked as Seebeck 5, ask you if you

12 can identify that.

13 A Yes.

14 Q And what is it?

15 A It's special meeting minutes from March 29th.

16 Q And what was the purpose of that meeting?

17 A It was for the Board to conduct a review of one of its

18 members' conduct.

19 Q And what was that conduct?

20 A It was a Board member acting outside of their authority as

21 -- as the Board in a situation that placed the School in a

22 -- in a situation of potential liability.

23 Q And what was the incident?

24 MR. WALLACE: I'm going to object to the

25 relevance, form and foundation.


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1 Board can only act when they're all together, when they vote

2 accordingly, right?

3 MR. WALLACE: Object to the relevance, form,

4 foundation.

5 A In situations like this, yes. This document was written

6 specifically for this situation.

7 Q And who was it written by?

8 A It was written -- and I guess I would have to say it was

9 probably written between the Board president and an attorney

10 from Thrun Law Firm.

11 Q You didn't do it.

12 A No.

13 Q It says: In light of the fact that Michigan law requires

14 that we act as a Board.

15 That would apply to anything, wouldn't it?

16 MR. WALLACE: Well, --

17 A This document and what it says applies specifically to this

18 situation. Any attempt to take this information and apply

19 it to any other situation, I think would be erroneous.

20 MR. WALLACE: We wouldn't have any witnesses

21 showing up already, would we?

22 (Discussion off the record.)

23 Q Now, you've filed this counterclaim in this particular case,

24 and you've alleged that the -- that Mr. Caffrey in writing

25 and verbally has slandered and libeled you, correct?


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1 A I'd have to read the complaint to see the exact wording.

2 Q Well, --

3 A I guess the complaint speaks for itself, so what's written

4 in the complaint is written in the complaint.

5 Q Okay. In that complaint you said that he published this

6 slander and written material to third parties.

7 Who did he say it to and who did he write it to?

8 A Again, it -- the complaint speaks for itself, and, you know,

9 I --

10 Q I'm asking you. You said that this was published, that

11 slander and libel was published to third people -- third

12 parties. Who are these third parties?

13 A Well, I know that some of the people that he's spoken to,

14 Board members, he has said things that one might construe to

15 be -- to be that.

16 Q What did he say?

17 A Well, that -- you know, again, conversations with me and the

18 Board members, you know, Seebeck's gotta go. I think he

19 told one of the Board members I'm an idiot. You know, those

20 types of comments.

21 Q So you're claiming that he slandered you by calling you an

22 idiot?

23 A Yes.

24 Q What else?

25 A Well, again, the -- the comments made to Board members that


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1 members of the Board, it would have been calling you an

2 idiot, saying you have to go and they gotta get rid of you,

3 right?

4 A Yes.

5 Q Now, what damages have you suffered?

6 A The -- his attacks, repeated attacks on me, statements that

7 he's made like that about me, certainly have made it very

8 difficult for me and my family.

9 Q Well, you're a public official, aren't you?

10 A I am.

11 Q I mean, do you find it unusual that people would refer to

12 the superintendent as being an idiot?

13 A Yes.

14 Q You do?

15 A I certainly wouldn't refer to anyone as being an idiot.

16 Q And all these statements were made at a time back when you

17 were involved with his daughter's incident, correct?

18 MR. WALLACE: I'm going to object, form,

19 foundation. The counterclaim speaks for itself.

20 Q Well, when were they? When were these statements given?

21 A Again, I don't remember the exact date and time.

22 Q But it was well over a year ago.

23 A I guess those statements, yes. Have there been others since

24 then?

25 Q Have there been?


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1 A Again, that's what I'm saying I don't know.

2 Q You don't know, okay.

3 Now, you've alleged in your counterclaim that he's

4 abused the process. What has he done to abuse the process?

5 MR. WALLACE: Form and foundation, it's a legal

6 term of art.

7 Q Well, what has he done? It's your claim. What did he do?

8 A Using the process such as this to exact revenge for how he

9 feels I dealt with his daughter when she had her issues at

10 the School.

11 Q Well, do citizens have a right to ask for proposed minutes?

12 A They do.

13 Q Do citizens have a right to ask for approved minutes?

14 A Yes.

15 Q So anything wrong with him doing that?

16 A No.

17 Q So what are you claiming then that he's done to -- that's

18 not within the bounds of legitimacy?

19 A I would just say the counterclaim speaks for itself. It

20 spells out what he has done and why, and I would leave that

21 to the attorney to argue and the judge to decide.

22 Q Well, we're here to find out what the facts are behind

23 what's been alleged in the complaint, so I'm asking you what

24 it is.

25 A And I would answer I feel that Mr. Caffrey has abused the


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1 process in a personal vendetta against me for the way that

2 he perceives that I handled the situation involving his

3 daughter.

4 Q So that's the only thing that you can say about it, is that

5 right?

6 A Yes.

7 Q Anything else that you can say that he's done to abuse the

8 process?

9 MR. WALLACE: Form and foundation. The pleadings

10 are as written; they're on file with the court.

11 MR. HANSEN: I know, and now I want to find out

12 the facts behind them, if there are any. Apparently there

13 aren't but...

14 Q Any other facts?

15 A Relating to -- go ahead and repeat --

16 Q Abuse of process.

17 A No; only what I've already stated.

18 Q Intentional infliction of mental distress, what conduct has

19 he done that is so extreme and so outrageous that it

20 qualifies as being intentional infliction of mental

21 distress?

22 A Again, I go back to the very beginning of the situation with

23 that phone call and how it started, and since that point,

24 again, trying to use the legal process in a way to cause

25 harm or humiliation to me.


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1 Q So it all arises out of the lawsuit?

2 A It all arises out of the very beginning of the situation

3 where it started with Mr. Caffrey and his behavior regarding

4 his daughter's situation and has continued since.

5 Q But what is that conduct that you're talking about?

6 A All of this.

7 Q Meaning these lawsuits.

8 A Meaning the lawsuits, meaning the conversation on the

9 telephone, the letters to the editor, the things that he

10 said to Board members.

11 Q Do citizens have a right to write letters to the editor?

12 A We're not questioning his right, only his motive.

13 Q So when your mother wrote a letter to the editor, we should

14 question her motives?

15 A You're welcome to.

16 Q Willful and wanton misconduct, what are you referring to

17 there?

18 A Again, as I just explained, the counterclaim speaks for

19 itself, and I've already explained why I believe we need to

20 file that or have filed it.

deposition of superintendent r. seebeck,re: libel, et al. law suit filed against mr. caffrey

Documents