david marshall interview 1994

8/8/2019 David Marshall Interview 1994

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IN THE PAST, WHEN YOU WERE CHIEF MINISTER, YOUTHS PLAYED A POLITICALLY-ACTIVE ROLE. HOW HAS THE ROLE OF YOUTHS CHANGED AS COMPARED TO THE PAST?

The role of youths! Ha!

In my time, I tried to educate our people in an understanding of the dignity ofhuman life and their right as fellow human beings, and youth was not only intere

sted but excited about what I consider things that matter. Things of the spirit;the development of a human being to his true potential in accordance with his own personal genius in the context of equal rights of others.

Today, youth is interested in getting paper qualification and, as soon as possible, shoveling gold into their bank accounts. Its a different world, even the law.

I am a consultant here [Drew & Napier]. When I left in 78, there were three partners it was supposed to be a big firm; two assistants we were a big firm; 17 staff. This office has four floors. They think that it is a waste of time to use thelift so we have an internal staircase. We have more than 90 lawyers, more than200 secretaries and I dont know how many staff.

The law is no longer a vocation, it is a business. Everything is geared to business!

Of course, there is this pragmatic development of our country. Ah, our rising expectations of a pragmatic character! It is a fantastic and almost a miraculous development in my lifetime.

When I was Chief Minister, there were men dying of starvation and because of beri-beri. I took my PA [personal assistant] and an Inspector of Police for night atmidnight. For two hours, we toured Singapore and we estimated there were two tenthousand men sleeping on the pavements. No homes.

Today - no unemployment, no homeless. I started this business of building homesfor our people. Compare the puny work I achieved and the fantastic HDB homes that are available today for our people. I am deeply impressed and I take off my hat to this very able honest government. Dedicated!

But I am seen as a critic and I am a critic.

I am frankly terrified by this massive control of the mass media, the press, theradio, television, antennae, [and] public meetings. You cant write a letter to the Straits Times; if there is a shadow of criticism, its not published. And the Chinese press follows suit. Its a very dangerous position because experience proves that no one group of human beings has got all the wisdom in the world.

I mean well, two of you are Chinese and one Indian [Ed: actually, the interviewers were one Chinese, one Jew and one Indian]. I dont know much about Indian history but look at China. You had Confucian authoritarianism for more than 2500 years. What happened to China? She was a fossil. She had to reinvigorate herself withthe Western ideology of communism. Another authoritarian ideology! And what wasthe result?

There must have been a million decent people who were transformed into vipers, vicious obscene vipers. Im afraid of this control of the mass media.

And are youths the miasma of apathetic subservience to authority? But you say toyourselves, Well, you know, what do we seek in life? We seek a rice bowl, full!

It is full and overflowing, in fact. They serve you your rice in a jade bowl with golden chopsticks; not that it makes much difference to the taste of the rice.


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But youre empty!

Youve got technocratic skills and you are seeking more but internally you are empty. Money is your acid test of success.

Ive got nothing against money. Id like to have money myself! Id like to have a house and a garden and dogs and a car and a chauffeur but, look, Ive got a flat. Ive g

ot a swimming pool attached to the flat. Ive not even got a car but I use taxis.I have a dignified way of life without being wealthy.

I dont see the necessity of owning a Mercedes-Benz and a swimming pool and a couple of mistresses. I think weve got our values all wrong.

You know $96,000 a month for a Prime Minister and $60,000 a month for a minister. What the hell do you do with all that money? You cant eat it! What do you do with it? Your children dont need all that money.

My children have had the best of education. In fact, Im very proud of them. One of them is a senior registrar to two major hospitals in Oxford. Another of them i

s a consultant in European law to the Securities and Investment Board in the United Kingdom. Theyve had their education. There are no complaints.

I never earned $60,000 a month or $90,000 a month. When I was Chief Minister, Iearned $8,000 a month. Look, what is happening today is we are encouraged to andare becoming worshippers of the Golden Calf.

We have lost sight of the joy and excitement of public service, helping our fellow men. The joy and excitement of seeking and understanding of the joy of the miracle of the living the duty and the grandeur. We have lost taste for heroic action in the service of our people.

We have become good bourgeois seeking comfort, security. Its like seeking a cryst

al coffin and being fed by intravenous injections through pipes in the crystal coffin; crystal coffins stuck with certificates of your pragmatic abilities.

What has changed?

The self-confidence of our people has grown immensely, and that is good to see.Our pragmatic abilities have grown magnificently, and that is good to see. Verygood to see!

You are very able. Youre ambitious, and the government has heroic plans for the future. It hasnt finished.

I take off my hat to the pragmatic ability of our government but there is no soul in our conduct. It is a difficult thing to speak of because it is difficult toput in a computer, and the youth of Singapore is accustomed to computer fault.There is no longer the intellectual ferment, the passionate argument for a better civilisation. The emphasis on the rice bowl!

Tell me Im wrong, come on.

THE PAP GOVERNMENT HAS INDEED DONE A GREAT DEAL FOR SINGAPORE. HOWEVER, THERE ISAN INCREASING DEGREE OF DISCONTENT GROWING AMONGST OUR YOUTHS AGAINST THEM. WHYDO YOU THINK THIS IS HAPPENING?

Our lives are empty. We dont understand the joy of living is not in the gold coin

s. It is not in the bank account. The joy of living is in human relations. We are not in appreciation of this miracle of life.


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We are giving a lop-sided view, an unfairness to the government! We come out ofa morass of imperial subjugation where people were dying of starvation and now?

You know, when I won a case once years ago, I was presented with a lovely porcelain Buddha with a big flowing belly and ears that reached to his shoulders and achubby face.

I said to my client, Look, you Chinese got a real feeling for aesthetics. How canyou worship something so obscene?

He said, Mr Marshall, try and understand. China is a land of starvation where millions of people die for lack of food, and to be able to eat that much, to be that fat, that is heaven!

Now, that is the attitude of our government: to be able to eat that much, that is heaven and you should be content.

So are youths not content? They are not anti. Our youths frankly, very honestlyrespect the pragmatic achievements of the government, and Im grateful, but they f

eel empty.

There isnt this joy of living which youth expects and youth needs to learn the joy of living. How do you teach it?

I think you teach it through respect for the individual. Thats our tragedy. If you want to put it in a nutshell, our tragedy is that we emphasise the primacy ofsociety as against respect for the individual. Mind you, both are right.

I mean both sides have the liberty. Of course, there should be respect for the needs of society over the right of the individual but you must respect the individual too in seeking the expression of the needs of society. Here, we have no respect for the individual.

Cane them! Hang them! There are more than a hundred queuing up to be hanged, youknow that?

[Minister For Law] Jayakumar said, I have plugged the loop-hole whereby they could escape being hanged and just have twenty years of imprisonment!

Oh, wacko the ducks you need a monument!

The joy of hanging people; flogging them, every stroke must break the skin. I dont like it. I dont believe it is a deterrent. I see no proof. Look, it seems to melogic! If every year we have more death sentences, how can you say death sentence is a deterrent? If it were, there should be less death sentences.

But you know Im in a minority and my father had one saying which Id like you to publish. It is a beauty. He was a true democratic heart although he didnt know it.

He used to say, David, if ten men tell you your head is not on your shoulders, shake it and make sure. Dont accept it. Just shake it and make sure!

Well, Ive shaken my head again and again and again and I still think Im right. I know Im in the dog-house.

The government doesnt see I do respect them immensely. They dont see Im a genuine friend. They only see me as a critic and to be a critic is to be an enemy who mus

t be erased and destroyed. There is no such thing as an honest critic to the PAP. Its a blasphemy to criticise the emperor, spoilt son of heaven.


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[Lee] Kuan Yew says you mustnt lampoon a Chinese gentleman. Oh, dear me! Ya, whathappened? What happened to China?

In Europe, they institutionalised the court jester and the court jester had total immunity against any result from his public criticism of the kings and emperors and the courtyard. Open public criticism that was his job! They tried to laughit off but at least there was one person to prick the bubble of their overgrown

egoism.

And which civilisation has progressed better for the development of humanity? The Western civilisation or the Chinese civilisation?

You talk of Asian values. I only know two Asian values and, I wish someone wouldreally pinpoint them instead of pontificating ponderously in humbug and hypocrisy.

Family values - I think we have more family cohesion in Asia than in Europe; more family warmth and I like that. I accept that there is a greater tradition of family warmth and family cohesion.

Two, we have a greater passion for education. My secretary I asked her once whather background is. She said her mother is a washer-woman and, here is this lovely secretary doing a damn good job. She was educated. How her mother could saveenough to give her the education?

So these are the only two values I know. Somebody tell me what other values thatare Asian, which everybody talks and nobody mentions the exact parameters.

And you know we use this concept of family cohesion to place on our youths the burden of caring for aging and ailing parents and grand-parents.

The young have got their own lives to make. To carry in your own homes aging irr

itable ailing parents and grandparents can destroy the family life of the young.

But then, the alternative is for the government to pour so much mountains of gold into building homes for the aged. Thats sacrilege gold is to be gathered and not to be spent.

I want to see more crches, more homes for the aged.

Our Prime Minister [Goh Chok Tong] talks about gracious living. Where is the gracious living?

So I am a bad boy, Im ostracised. The Straits Times makes slimy remarks about me.

The [press are] running dogs of the PAP.

WHAT WOULD YOU TELL YOUTHS WHO INTEND TO PURSUE A CAREER IN LAW?

Try and understand that the law is a vocation and not a business. Respect your client irrespective of the fees. I used to charge $1 for a murder case if he wasMalay because he had no money. I used to charge $1 to trade unions; all Malay unions, I charged $1 a year. And the $1 is simply because, if you do it for nothing, you are not liable in negligence whereas $1 makes a contract and, if you arenegligent, they can sue you.

Id like them to also understand that justice is a meld of law and humanity. Law a

nd humanity; decency in concepts; if we administer law by the soulless logic ofthe computer, we arent on our road to progress.


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Youre too young but ask your parents the Japanese times, their draconian approachto anti-social activities. Ask your parents how they welcomed the returning British soldiers in 1945.

I was stunned when I heard about it; that we a colonial people, a subject people, should welcome rapturously the armed forces of Imperial power. How was that possible?

I learnt that they had a sense of relief to be back in the ambience of British justice; out of darkness, out of the draconian attitudes of the occupying power.

If you want to make money as a lawyer, you can. I see marble palaces. My juniors, ha! Marble palaces, swimming pools, Mercedes-Benz! Oh, bravo!

They work till nine oclock at night. I dont know how their children survive. Theywork very hard, they make a lot of money. Yes, its true.

If you are going for corporate law, insurance law and the non-litigant aspects of law, you can make a lot of money.

If youre a particularly good litigant our litigation lawyers in civil cases weve got some outstanding local lawyers. Yes, you can make a lot of money.

Dont go in for crime. The Criminal Bar is a very frustrating Bar today.

YOU HAVE FOUGHT MANY CASES. YOU HAVE SOME BRILLIANT CASES THAT YOU MANAGED TO SWEEP THE JURY OF THEIR FEET IN WORDS?

And Im according to Lee Kuan Yew in Parliament when he sought the abolition of the jury, David Marshall is responsible for 200 murderers walking freely the streets of Singapore.

Im proud of that. I told him to put it on my tomb. If there are 200 people walking freely the streets of Singapore, it means they are contributing to Singapore.Singapore would have been poorer by hanging them. I have no compulsion.

Look, the purpose of criminal law is really two-fold: as a deterrent and as a catharsis of society to express its vengeance. If you escape it, youre no harm to society so long as you maintain a good police force and so long as you maintain acertain human justice in understanding.

For me, the punishment must not fit the crime, the punishment must fit the criminal and the punishment must fit the needs of society.

Recently, I accepted a brief a Sikh sentenced to death. He was 21 when he was arrested. His appeal came on five years later. It was dismissed.

But during those five years, he studied religious knowledge. He got distinctionin the New Testament and he became a Christian.

Hes now 26 or 27. Hes going to be hanged. I like that man. I think he can be a real asset. He is a delightful chap.

I asked his family, his elder brother. I said, You Sikhs are really close in thefamily. How did your family take his becoming a Christian?

He said, What could we do? The poor man is going to be hanged. How can we be angr

y?

There are more than a hundred people queuing to be hanged. There are decent peop


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le there.

Look, theres a lovely phrase I forgot who coined it who said, There but for the grace of God go I, I know no man who stood totally spotless that he can say I committed no anti-social act.

And so in our criminal code, if some escaped, thats an asset.

Im reminded of a lovely story of Sir Walter Raleigh. On the scaffold, he went upand tested the axe with his thumb and turning to the master executioner, he said, This is the surest cure for all diseases. If you want to eliminate all crime, you got to eliminate all humanity.

I have absolutely no bad conscience about the men I have helped escape the gallows and escape the prison. Im grateful for the opportunity to have done that.

I say this, perhaps in conclusion, we have a judiciary of tremendous integrity.Ive been practising since 1948, except for three and a half years, there isnt a single case of financial corruption, neither in the High Court nor the magistrates

courts. Its wonderful to practice in the ambience of total integrity.

HAVE YOU EVER REGRETTED BECOMING A LAWYER?

No! I think it was a guardian angel that brought me there.

I suppose you know, you must have read that I wanted to be a psychiatrist. First, when I was young, I wanted to be a doctor. I thought medicine was the greatestprofession in the world helping heal and comfort the sick and the helpless. Andas I grew into adolescence, I wanted to be a psychiatrist. Not to practice butto do research: why the goodwill of the young?

All youths no matter what race, no matter what country, goodwill flows from thei

r hearts. They want to help the world, but by the time you reach 30, your goodwill like good wine turns to vinegar the vinegar of crabbed egoism.

I wanted to study the wise and whether these could be some antidote for this unhappy transformation of the goodwill of youths to the crabbed egoism but I didnt have the money. Fortunately!

I dont know if I could have achieved anything that vast. I dont know whether I have the intellectual ability to do first-class research into the mind and emotionsof man.

I fell, by accident, into the right career at the right time and it has been wonderful.

Regret? Im full of gratitude for having become a lawyer and, especially, a criminal lawyer; for having helped thousands of people terrified, helpless before thesilly forces of society. Theyve looked into me as their protector. I have no regrets at all for having helped them; humanity, if you can understand this.

If you ever become a criminal lawyer, never look down upon your client. He may be a murderer or he may be a thief; he is a fellow human being. You must try andrespect your client no matter what he has done. It is very important in your ownself-respect in your work, and to help who is helpless in seeking help.

Look, at the age of 86, I can say in all earnestness, the thing that matters mos

t in bringing human satisfaction is human relations. To be able to care for yourfellow human beings, to be able to give! Never mind about receiving.


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Even today, my friends say, Oh, David, stop it! Why do you have to keep making public noises that annoy the government? Live in dignity and retirement. Theyll respect you and youll have the honours.

Ha, honours! I want to fight till Im dead!

What matters most in life is the right of human beings to live fully in the cont

ext of their own genius. In one word, perhaps, to fight for human justice. I once said humanitys cry for human justice reverberates down the corridors of the centuries, and it is still crying for human justice.

AN UNFORGETTABLE MOMENT IN ST. ANDREWS SCHOOL?

I was coming. That was the old building and I was coming along the corridor carrying a set of books. It must have been morning and, outside my classroom, therewas a Chinese boy much slimmer than you [Dharmendra] with his back to the wall absolutely pale, full of fear.

And in front of him was my friend, an American boy same student, same class and

dancing an Indian jig saying,Chink! Chink! Chinaman!

Without the slightest warning, I dropped my books and lunged at him [the American boy].

DO YOU HAVE ANY MESSAGE IN GENERAL?

Recognise there is a lot of satisfaction in public service, foreign service, judicial service. A great deal of satisfaction in public service, even honorary public service in committees.

[If] you are totally engrossed in self-promotion, at the end of the day, youll find its dead seafood.

Try and give up yourselves to others.

I am so alien to this worship of the Golden Calf and the draconian attitude; thebrutal attitude towards our fellow citizens. Here I ask people and, no doubt, if I ask you, Were all in favour so long as its not me having my bottoms cut! Yes, whip em!

Try to put yourself in the other mans shoes.

And, of course, what have I got to say?

You, the young youve got a fantastic, absolutely fantastic potential before you;economic expansion, heroic plans that the government has for the future not onlythe present. You are so lucky! No unemployment! Great potential even beyond your capacity to fulfill.

Its an exciting country, Singapore. Its a lovely country. And you have to make your own space for your own spiritual and intellectual needs and have the courage.Have the courage to serve your fellow men with integrity.

Ill put it in one nutshell: have the courage to live, dont be afraid!

You know, Im told Im fool-hardy and always criticising, although I have such a gracious life. But fool-hardy or no, this is me; I am prepared to take what you giv

e.

david marshall interview 1994

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