SENATE HOUSE OF COMMONS

luue No. 2

Friday. November 7. 1980

J oiel Cllairme.n: Stnt.l()t Harry Hays Serge J oyal, M.P.

Min11tes of Prtxeedings and Evidence ojtlte Special Joint Ctmrmltll!e of th~ Sen(lle ond of tlte H ouse ofCommon.f on the

Constitution of Canada

RESPECTING:

The document en tided .. Proposed Resolution for a Joint Addre&s to Her Majesty the Quoe.n res-pecting the ConS-titution of Cttnada'' published by the Government oo October 2-, 1980

APPEARING:

The Honourable Jean ChrCticn, Minister of Justice and Attome)' General of Canada

WITNESS:

(See back CO\'Cr)

First Session of the

Thirty--second Parliament, 1980

SENAT CHAMORE DES COMMUNES

Fueicuk 11" 2

Le vendrtdi 7 n()Vembre 1980

Copr&idents: SCaateur Harry Hays Serae J oyaJ, dt pott

Proces~,.,~rbaux et tCmQigrUiges du Comit~ mlxte spkial du Si11tll el de la Chambre des communes SliT /o

Constitution du Canada

CONCERN ANT:

Le document intilult. cProjet de rCsolution porta nt adrellsc commune A Sa Majestt la Rei ne conccrnant la Constitution du Canada•, publiC:. par le gou,•ernement le 2 octobre 1980

COMPARAIT:

L'honorable Jean Chr~t ien , Ministre. de la Justice et Procurtur gCnCral du Canada

TfMOIN:

(Voir a l'endos)

Premit.re session de la

t.rente-deuxitme Jegjstature, 1980

SP€CIAL JOI~'Il" COMMITTEE OF THSSENAT'EANDOF THE HOUS~ OF' COMMONS ON THE CONST1T1JTION OI'CANADA

Joint Chofrmt1t' SeR!liOr flarry I.Jays Sci"Je Jo)'al. M.P.

Rtprtft•t.lf"g th~ S~nau:

St.~t~IOI'I:

R~f'"HIIIIIffl tM HOVI~ of C.O,IfiO'Ir.

M$rt

Doehtael Compbc:U (Misll)

($011th Wt>JI NoWl) ChtRkt

Corbift Crnmbi111 Epp Glmat-el

COMITt MIXTE Sl•tCIA~ DU SENAT ET DELA CHAMBRE DES COMMUNES SUR LA CONSTITUTION DU CAN AD,\

CoprJ.tid tnl.f: Senateur Harry l l11yf Serge Joyal, d6pulf

Repdttnto nt lt SIMI:

le$ $Cnatcurs.:

M~nlull ~hit

RqN"boo1fUfl l4 CM'""" tl" romMa.Ns;

Mcs:s~ars

KnQ-.·Ic:s Lapicrre ~bJ<>ne MtGralh

No-'lan Ny"rom Tubin- ( 15)

(Q~;~orum IZ)

U.1 t'Ofrtffttn du CtJ,nirl

Ridllrd PrC.cnt

huJ Blfisk

Jtll,.. a,.-u of,., o-mltttt

Mr. &ter (NtpcolUt· Ctult'to,) replacod Mr. F'rue-r: Mr. ~blooc replaced Mr. lh.ter (N~pnm·Cnrlf!ton); Mt. Now!Jw rcpl:t c~d Mr. Bean)': Mt. CWnier replaced Mr. (rw-in; Mr. Ciim11Tel rcplactd Mr. Mackasey.

PuDUoan• 10 ..n ordct ol the Sctlate: acloptcd NO¥Cmber 5, I 980:

Scutor Robc:rt Mcir tqlla«d Stu.1« O.ff Robt1tt; ScMtor Jad: Mars.baD replaced Seutor M•tdal Au.tha..

Pll tllttlltll 11~1 autMoity c,r d" Suoue ~~~~~ ••• ~ .. -., or tlw 1111- or c-, by 1..1oc QoMn .. f'IWtcr rur c ........ A.,.,!l,o.k (""" lk Ca..-a Cloo-t~t Pllll!i41Wn& C.III.N, S11p"')' alld .!le'tlcc• C ....... 11 ... Qllflxc, CaRa<t:l J.;.I.A OM

Cooformimeat j 1•a.rtidc 65(4)6) du Rtg,Jemtt~t dt la Charn-. bre des OCIII'Ununca:

M. IU,ker (Nf~n~CtulnOtt) ~m place M. Frasu: M. MalOII'( n.'tnplaoo M, Baker (Nrptrun·Curlr.tQn);

M . Now·Jan 1c.mpiA~ M. Otany; M. CMnJet rcmptacc M. lrwln:

M. Cinu~fc-1 remplll« M. M1ckuey.

ConJor~tnetlt I un Otthc du Sit~;at J~d<lpci le S fiO'Iembu l980:

Le s&atNI Rotlcrt Johir rcn'lpbtt k si:Mtnn Duff Rotltua; L.c. Kaatc\lr J~d: M•n;lull rcmpllce k sCaatew Martial

AsJd.i• .

Publi6 ' " (tlllrQJmil• ell ruhllht dll Sfnu et Oe: rOfljtcur • la Chl.mbt.: - -• jll>l " "''"1-llr o.l• Ill Rfir,e: f!Otlf \1: Cum.la

£n YCIIIC. Ctlltl'l! d'Uit.o~ll cl• jilll•_..... lhl (;u>oda A~IICIIIielllt lt Scroi<cu Ca ... d~ I ... O..C~ C....:tda IC I A 059

7-11· 1980 CoMtihll ion d u Can~d11 l : J

MlN'UT£S OF PROCf!RDINGS

FRIDAY, NOVCMBI;R 7, 1980 (4)

(Ttxr]

T he Spe<:ial Joint Committee on tbe, Constitution of Canada JMI at 9:42 o•ctock a.m .• thL1 day, for t he purpoie of orpnilu• tion, the Joint Ch~irm;m, 1\fr. Joyal prcsidin1.

Mtmbtrsofrht Commftt~t pu.J~nt:

R~pr~J~nling 11t~ Sl'full,; The Honourable SenatofS Assdin, AuS(in. Conr-.olty, Goldc:nbtiJ. Hays, Umontagne, Lucler, Muir, Pettet~a.nd Tremblay.

Rf{Nfstnling rite H outt of CommDIIJ.' Messrs. Baker (Ntpton Carltron). &3tty, Bocbt:tel, Mills Campbell (St>Utll Wf'Jt Novo), Me~rt. Corbin, Crombic:, Epp, FrMer, lrwin, Jo111. Lapierrc:, Mactuey. McG rath. Nystrom and Tobin.

Othtr Altmhrr prt'.tf'nl: Mr. A llm11nd.

Oebt&te wn resumed on the •mended motion ol Mr. Beat· ty,-That the quorom oltl1e CommlHee-be t welve membecrs, "'~never a vote.., re,;olution w other decision is taken, so Jons u both Hou.scs are represented a nd tbat at least ooo Commit·. '" member from the OffM:Ial OppMiti<lf'l in either Ho~ is present and tlutt the- Joint Chairmen be auth orized to bold m('C'tinas. to recei ~-e evidenoc and autborite tbe. printing tltere­o(, wbeo six members ate prdent so kmt 1u both liousd u.re teprcsenttd ;:~nd a Cxnmiuc:e member rrom tbe Offi<:W. l Oppo­sition in either House is present.

Afttr debate tber~n. the question being put oo the motion. it ,_.as ne,atived on tbt foUowing d ivision :

Y I!:A$:

T he lionour~bk Senator$

Asselin Trcmblay Muir

Messrs.

Beauy McGrath Crombie Nystrom-8 Epp

NAYS:

The Honour1.blc Sen;~tors

Awtin Lomontagne Connolly Lucier OoJden bcrg Pettcn Ha)'S

Messrs.

Bockstacl Jrwin Campbell (M iss) Lopierr.:

(Sourlt Wc.~l Nq~w) Mlaclcasey Cofbin T o bin- 14

P.ROC£s· YER84L

LE VENDREDI ? N-OVEMBRE 1980 (•)

(Trotluc.lir:HJ]

Le. Cmnit6 mi.llte sp~cial sur la Constitution do C~n1tdo1 tient 1111jourd'hui, i !1 h 42. sa K••n<:e d'orpnis.ltion, 50\IS la prhi· denoc de M. Joyal (eoprbident). Mf'mbr~.r tlu Cmt~iti prl3tmt.r:

RtpdstntanJ I~ Sinot: Les honotablc::s &t.nateuu Assdin. Austh!, C<lt'lnolly, Goldtnbetg, Hays, Latnont~gne, Lude:r, M uir. Pecten et Tembluy.

Rtpdun.toni /o Chombrt dt$ (Y)nWmnts: MM. Baktt (1\'tpt.Un Cur/don), Beatty, 8oc::bt.ael, M•" Campbell (S()Uth JVm /Y(Aoa), MM. Corbin, Clombi~ Epp, Fraser. lrwio, Joyal. l apicrrc. Maebst)'. MeGrath, Nymom et Tobin.

Autre J ;putr. priftmt: M. A!lm~nd.

l e d6b3t reprend sur la motion modiJi6c de M. B~uy: Qoe le quOfum du ComltC soit till! ! d<luze membrtt, :i ()()ndilioo que les deux Cho1mbres soienl rcpft5entCe~ pour les \'otts, r t solutioos ou autres d~c.isions ec qu'ao moins un rnentbre. repr&ent.ant J'oppatltlon orticlelle d e l'onedu deux ch.lmbtes, $0it prCsent, Cl que les coprtsideJlt$ SC>iCIII autori$t5 j tenis des reunions.. rccevoir des temoignaaes et en autwiser l'imJM'e&ion larsqu•au moim six membfes sont prbents.. A eonditiQfl que k $ dc:u11. Chambrc.s soient repritlentees; e t qu•un membre repre; senlant !'opposition officiclle de l'unc: des deux chan1btes soh prisent.

AprC.S dCbat, la mot ion modiftte. mUe au.x voix. est rejet« llur d ivWOl! par 14 volx conue, 8.

POU R:

l,.cs honoraWell lli:mueurt

Ass.clin Trcmbl;ay Muir

MM.

BeaHy McGrath Crvmbie N)strorn- & Epp

CONTRf.:

Lcs hot!Otablcs st.nateurs

Austin Lan)()tltagne. Conoolly Lucie.r (i-()ld.:nber& Pcuc.n Hays

MM.

Boobtael ln~·i n

Campbell (Mile) Lapieu e (South W.-sr Nt.n•a) M:1Ck.lllley

Corbi:n Tobin- 14

2 : 4 Cotititutioa ol Canada

8)' '""'"'mout eoucet Oft ***of Mr. M~. it ..-u ay«d,- TNt &11 proocd•,..J nucn be retaRd to the Su~ eonwuoe 011 Atcftda slid Proccdliltc.

By UftiiUI'IICIN COIUoml 011 motion cl Mr. M~. it wu •Jl'ftd..- 'nat tlilc Cownaucc illYitc cM ~tibter oi JI&Micc ud Auorney O~otraf o( Cauda 10 appea.r before: tbc Cam· m1ttc.t at iu lliUift& at J:OO p.m, toc&.y, Frid;ty, N~mbcr 1, 1980.

At llkll o'dodt o.m .. "" motion or MJ. Ltpi«~. the Commitcce !idjoorntd untill:OO p.m. l.his d;~y.

A FTERNOON SITTINO (l)

l'hc Spcclnl Joint Commillcc on the Co~iunion ofCanad.a met at 2=07 o'cloc:k p.m, the Joint Cbaitman. Hot~ourable

Seutor H11)1 pr«ldlna. M~mbt', ofth• com,ritle« piYS~III:

R'""'"'''"' o., SOUit~ Tl'tc Hoi)C)urtble Se:n;atOts Atmi:rl, Con~tolly, GoldotnberJ,. H1y1, Lamontapc. LI.Kicr, M anbaJl, Pt'11efla.nd Trc.mblly.

RrfHr.m•l/141 tM H&fdt of ~: Mis:s C.am:pbdl (56utA H'rJt ,VOhl), M can. CIJCrucr, C«bin. Crom.bie. £pp. GilnaJcl, lrwl ... Jo)-al. Lapiem. MacbJ;ey, M.UO.C. McGra1b, Nowka alld N)..CIOIIt..

Otlu<t .l.lt"'""' hunt~: Mt:t~n. l.udcrs ud Bea.ny. APfNullf6.· 1llc Hoewrablc Ja.a C~Nitka. Miaistct of

Jldt~ 1nd AI*Mf GttWtal of Caaadl. WftMI#.' FroM tAt lh/N'tfiWtft ll/ J.aJiff: Mr. Rogu TaU.

Otput' Mlnbttr o( JustiCe.

The Commhtu ,wocecdcd to toruidcr its Order or Re.rer• eM:e from the S(Jialc dated November ) , 1980 and its Ord« of Rereren..-. rrom 1114 1-fousre or Commoos dated October 2.3, 1980. whkh nre IIJ tolll)••:

RESOLVED,-ThiU the Scnnte do unite-with the House()( Comrnont In the appointment ola SpcciaJ Joint Committee to oomld' r nnd report upon the document entitled " Propos.cd Resolution fO<t 1 Jolni Addm• tu I-ter M~c,ty the Queen rupecdna the Cons1itu1ion or Canada .. publisbcd by the Gcw· crnmcnt on Octe'lbct l. 1980. and to mommc:;nd in tbc:ir rc:por1 ••bethet or noc floiCh an Add~~~o. "''ilh Jucb ilmc!Mfmcnts fiS Llle Cornmiuc:e conddm MOCSaary, shoQ)d be presented by boch Houtet ol Partbmc.:nt to Htr Majesty the Quett~:

That ttll Membcn or the SeM.te. to be desiccated at a later date, .et Oft behalf ol the Scrvte u members ol the SpeciaJ Joi•t C4mmiucc:

lllat the (Mn.rrw:ttC!e bal'e po'I"CC CO '-WQiAI from ~lnCJII& ill mcm~ M~~CII wb-committco as may be dttmcd ad'risable and ~ry •-' to ckh:pte: to t.ch s.._b-committea att or a.ny olthar po'ltfn ocq,c tile power eo rcp:w1 directly to the Scn3t~

That the Commiucc bal'e power to si:t d•titl& siuittp and acf)OVJinKfiiS a/the Senate:

That the Committee h.YC power to Knd for pu:sons. ptpcn and rcCQtdA. and to u11mjnc wltMUeaand to pdnt web papers a.nd e'lidc-nct rrom day to day n may be ordered by l:he Committee;

0. ~lemeet uaaime et H r m0111011 de M. ~bebtcy, 11 ut CIOMtll .. QM tot~ta ks q~ de prooC:dvn: -.., reft'f'O)id •• IOUoCOmlllf du pi"'O.Rmmc et de- b p.-oc:ERu~

0. C:Oil.WilleMC•I IUUtllftt d hll IROtiola de M . ~bduey, " a. «Nt\'Cftll QIK k C..itC IJI<ntc k m1nbu-e & b Justioe d Procureut ,ntral cf• Cnada i I.'OmpJtailn: dc-r.lnt lui i b tbltC:odc: I.Cik\ltes. •uJOUrd' b.._i., vcndttdi 1 ocwcmbrc 1930.

A 10 h ll, llrr modem de M. Lapicr~.le Comiti juspcnd 5ti wavau~tju~qu'd 1• heurc.'l.

S~ANCE 06 L'APReS-MI OI (~)

Le Cu111M n1lxte •~ciAI .t:ur ta Con'"titution du Canada se rtunil •uJoutd'l'll.d A 14 h 07 aoti-S l.a presicknce de l'h<ltlorable sli'IIIICiolt fb)'l (copthldr:nl).

Mnnbrttlltl Comitl pr-f.JLnU: R'prhrlfJllllt I• ShMr: le:s bonotables sCoatcu" A•~lin,

Col\nolly, Ooldc.nbera. Ha)". Lamonl.a,Jne. Lueier. Manhall, P~uu 1tt Trcmblay.

R,pd-Jt:*IIM ,. ONt/111/w rlu «JmmfftiMS: w• C.mpbdl ($oatJA WnJ /'to'O'tw), MM. CWNcr. Corbia. Crombie. Epp, Gi ... td, 1,..~ JoraL l.apiaTc. Mxb.Ky, M.a,lone., McGr8lk, N'owt.aa d Jrrl)'Rrom.

AMUt:-1 tllpt.tb ,u ... ~ MM. U.Ddcn et SQuy.

C~: L "hcwwotatllfe Jcu Chri:ticft. miflistrc ck b Jdo tka et Proai1w.t sf:Aiir.l d• Ca~~ada.

Tht4J~t• Ow mi.Utb-~ J~ lrt J.utltv: M. Ros« TasK._,.,.. minlttre de la J~tkc.

le Comh6 cnln:prmd I'Chade de KS- ordm de renYOi: du se'"'' fl'l d.all du J IIOYCmbrc 1980, et de la Chilmbre des eommuna, en d11 te du U octobtt 1980 doot la tcat:Ur •vi~;

I L I.'ST lltSOW: Que le Sl:n~at se j<1ig.ne i la Cbambre del c:omrnune. pour tonnur 1111 Comit6 mixte ~~optciu l pour uaml­ncr le doc:umcnt lntltult ·Projet de rkolutjon porttnl udrd£0

eomrnunci Sa Majc.ut lA Rdnt~ ((lf:lccmant ll Coos-litution du C.nAdll..., Jl'lbll4 p~r k aouve~ncrneilt 1c 2 cctobre 1~8(), fai~ rappon '"' I• que•tl<rn, d fai~ des reoomma.ndatioM d.an11101t rapport QUIIIII l I'OPf!Orlunitt, poar ks deu• Cba.mbrtt du Parlemcnt. de prftc•t« i Sa MajcatC cctte acfrCJSc.. modir.Ee.. le C:al 6cbhnt, par le COit'lrt~

O.e le Sln.al dbiiM u11lrleure:mt:nt dix sblatcun JX*t 1411 tep heetu au IC:i.,. de cc Com11C mJ,.tc s:pee ... t:

ON k Colnkf: tOit 11110Nf; i clloisir parmi $CS mmtlwa onu; q•i rcroM pl"--IC cSa ~tCs cp-d pc:llt atimu opport'IIM CN ~1ra d i dftq_wc:r i ea JICIIISoCOmit& lOUt

ov pltlia de Mt- poll1'01n s:uf cd!U ck f~ire rapport di'r«te­ll'ldl •• S&at:

Que k Comne alt at ~~' doe sil.r« pe11.dat1t ks •~ et Id ajouMemc:nu dll Stn<~l;

Q•c la Comh4 .tOil auuw"' i OOtiYoqucr dCIIo pei'JOII_n..., l ulcer Ill prod~~etfon de duc•mcnts et pltte11. 1 intctf'08eJ des tC.moill!8 e1 • faira lmprimcr au jour le juur ks ckM.'11menll e1

ttmoipaac• qu'll juae a PMfm~

7·11·1910

Thlt the Commiutt sabnnt tlrtesr report 1!011 lata llun. Dootmbcr 9, 1910;

Tbat the QllOnlm o( the ComntiHtt be twdvc: mc:.mbe:FJ, • 'htnt'Vu • "'CC. rc:sollltiOft or other deri1ion h taken, iO kwi8 tt b<Mh 1-lou.sd arc represented and tbat the Joint Ch~tifmen be aulhoriud to bold meetin~, to re<:elve eYidenoc and nthorltc the priming thereof, when .Wx member. ure present tO Iona at both Houllu ure represented: and

Th;tt a M~IJIC be aent to tbc Houu: oi'Common110 inform tbll ~lowc accordirt&fy. RESOLfiED.-T~t a SpcaaJ Joln.t Com.miu« ol the

Se .. le a.nd of tht HC~~~De of Cooamou bt. appoiatcd to Cl)ft'i:ida t.d ''"port upo~~ 1bc doc::wmmt ntilkd "'ProrpoKd Raol•t;o. (01 a Jcut Adclrc:u to Ha M~rtK Quoc• ~ tile C.O...it•tia. of CaudiiM p!lblbhtd by tiM Ocwcnl.-t CM October l. 1910. aM to KCOm.mellld in tt.dr l'f":pon • •hethct or not.uch ar1 Addrest, with such amendmentlal tltc Committee c:onJicku necessary, sbooJd be presented by both I louses of P•rU•ment to her Majeuy tbt Q\loen:

That IS Member• of the Houu of Commol\f to ~ desic· nated no later than t!uee •iuina da)'a after the adOJ)tloa Gf thlt motion be membcn on tbe par1 of tltlt 1-lou~~e of the Spec:ial Joint Contmlucc;

That the CommiU« ba,•e po•'tr to 11ppoint from nmonJ iu Mtmbc:n such tub-tommittcca •• may be cktmcd advlsabk­•.nd n«a~ary •nd to delcpte to ••eh llolb-oommluca 111 or aay or lbcrr powt:tt e.lttpl the: po.cr to rci)Ofl dbccdy to tbc: JICMNC;

TUt the CCMM'Iiueoe haft power to a.it ctwiq t.iu.iep ud ad_;o-n~nc~~ts oltk House ol C~

nu the Cocnm.itkle hive JIO"'"'tt lO 5tftd for ptf'JCIIN. fllpef't aDd ~"and to cxa.mi:.c •·ltDQ~KS alld la priftt ttaeh papcn and ~·ldcnu- from day to day .u may be ordncd by the Comnth 1 eo;

That the Commiuee submit tbtlt repor1 noc later tllll'l December 9, 1980:

nuu the quorum or the-CQmmiHec be 12 rnembert, when· C!o'Ct 11 vote, rtitllution or « her decision it tllkt:n, to lons as both Hou~c11 arc: represented and th:•t the: Joint Chnlnnc:n be luthoriltd to hold meetings, to rcoeivc: c:vidcnc:e ud authoriu­thc prlntlll£ thereol, when 6 mcmbt.rt arc ptCIICtlt to lon.t t.J boch ~lousa lte ~ptest11ted; and

TIMt a Mtw~JC bt sent lO the Senate rcquc&tiftatNt House to ••itc ~•• tills Ho.se for lk aboYe- put"ppK-. aDd ~ .tdcct. if tk Seutc clttms. it to be ~bk. Mc:mbcn to &Cl .. tk propo.od Speaal Joiflt Commiuce.

1lle Joint Ct.au·--rn.a11. Mr. Joyal )!rtStnted the hnl Report of the S11b-c:ommiutt on A~c.ttd.l and Procedure •bkb is at foUowa:

Your Sub-CX~mmiuc:e met on 17Nday, NO\•embi:r 8, t<JSO to con.stder the future- bu.,inc5S of the Committee in relution to 1t11 Order or Rcrerenoc from the Senflh:. dated Novc1nbcr ), 1980 !utd hll Order ()( Refc:rciKlt from the Hou.K oF Commonll d;J.ted October 2l. 1980 oonccming the d1X11mtnt cntilled "Propo~td RdolutMM (l)r a Joint Addrcu 10 Her M!ljelty the Queen rapc:ctJncclle COftsti~

2.l

Que le Coout6 faMe upeut •• plus tard k 9 ~btc 1980;

Que le qliCitum du Co.n1t~ $CM I fi\:t il dout.t •ncJttbtti, A condition que I~ dcu.-. Ch11mbre~ klicnt tepr6C111C:ct: pou- lc:t VQtC:5., rC.oJuliOIU OU IIUl!C. d&lhiloOni:, Cl (tllo( lu OOp!bidCI'Iltl &Oienl autorillb ll t~nlf de& r64ution$. reoevoir det t6noiJilli•Sc• et en uulorinr l'irnpre.uiOfl lonqu~au moins t i.t mcmbrc• $0t'll prtKnls, il w ndition que I~ deu.t Ch3mbres &e>ient rc1~n· 16ct.: et

Qu'un nletllge toh trant~mif li 111 Chambf(: dtt~ rommunc.'l pew rcn informer.

IL 1.·$T RLsOt.U; Qu'•n Coml1f spfciaJ mute du SCNt et de la O.mlarc des CICMIItn•~W:S IOi t Wthu.i: pollf CUIIIIIICf k doattacnt inlkuW: • ..,._ de ri:lol ~<tMIIII porutwt Ad.csw com­mwx i S. tobjca.!A .. RciK ((lfto(afliUI la COIUt:ICu-1;.:. d• Canada•. Jl'lblit par k IOI"'tt~~CmUI le 2 oe1obre 1910. ra11e r1pp:ar1 Slit 1a qurst.-, ti faiR -= rccoounattdatiofts ~m ...c. rappor1 q-N_n1 i l'orponunh6, flOUr Jcs de.• ~mbfa d• P.arlc.mcnt, de prbenler A Sa Maje"l oettc ad res~. modirik., le eu Eehh.nt, park CotnitC:

Que la Cluunbte det COfl'lmurM:• dtsianc. daAs 11::5 trol5 ~,,. de .!Gnoc liUi •uivct•t l'nd()lltlon de ceuc mot.ion, qulnz.e d~P• · tC• pour la repr&enter au •eln du Comlt~- sp(cial mill tc:

Que le Com.lt6 toll autori-' • chQtgr parmi ses ltlt:.nbra ~u.x qui rei'WII partk des IOUI·COmit& qu'il pcul atimc.t opportu.M ou Mcanha *' a dE~t;ucr i ea MIIU-<Omit& tout ou partie de m pou'lofn qu( ecfui de filiR tapt)Ol'l du~ ~nC~tt i ~ Clu mhrc:; ~c k ColmtC .,, k "'*""-' ck .tXcn pt*laAt lcs Jbncu et

b a;o.r.tmc11u de la O..•t.n dd ClOmmu:MS;

Que k ComrtC lOll u.oritl I eo.voqutt des pcrliOfiDCl.o I exi!t1 la production de dol:lilmct~U et piCc:a.., i intetrottt da 1Cmoins e1 i fairc imprimer au jour le jour les documc..nb et t&noigoages qu'iJ ju#c i peop.x:

Que le Com.it6 fmc rapport II.IJ plut t.ard le 9 decembrc 19-80;

Que- le quorum d11 ComltC 110it fixC a douze mt:•hbltt, 1l wnditioo que ks dc:u~ Chllntbu:(llaolent t cprde:nti:tl IXI'l' In votd. rbolutiOIIll 01o1 autrell dEcl•lon~, et que le$ c;opr&idcnb soient autc.niW A 1enlr du rCunMlfU5, tcoe,.oir des t6nois,ml£tt et ea autOfiM:r l'imprc:uiOIII lorttqu'au moins th mcmbtu sonl pt'Eknu., • t:OI'IC:htMM que Jc1 d«u Ch:ambrr:s &Oical tcptbc• tic$; d

Q.'•n Mc::u;qe IOit •n"')'i au SCaat l"i~la.Jll l .se JOUJCitc j la Clwllbte au filM &luKrta t:t-deims.. et i dCs:tpcr • ., a. cbot;c tw Pl~il ... hll&aWc., c:att•• • $($ lllledlt.a poll! fai~ partic de c:c Coml1f spldal mi• tc..

Le ooprQOOeet, M Joyal, pr&entc k premia- ,..JIIIOI1 du !IC'ltlt-tam.hh du PfO£-tl.nune et de 111 f"''OCedurc que voici:

Votre sot»-<OI'nh~ l 'ut r6uni le ''t-tu!n.>di tl nuvembrc: 1980 pour t tudiu le cat.:ndrier d~ 'c$ tr•'·au.x en tllJ)f)Orl q.vcc ae;s ordr~ du N:lnvoi: du SCnat en dale du J 1'10\'tmbi'CI 1980 et de 111 Chll•niMe dct oammune:t, en date d1 2l oc:tobrc 1980, rd111if~ 1111 di)C1,1ment iDtiluJt . Pto}et de risolution potlllnt Adrc.tllc COtmmuM: a S11 M•jaiC l11

1 : 6 Coll3titutioa ol Canada 7·11· 1980

tutlon of Csnada" published by the Gcwernment Ot'l Octo­ber 2, 1980.

Your Sub-commiuce has agreed to recom.rnct~d tbc:. followi:na:

!-That the schedule. ol mectlnss for the .,..ttk of NO\·embtr 10, 19SO be"' folloWJ:

Wednesday 3:30 p.m.- 6~00 ~m. No.,.ember 12.. 1980 8:00 p.m.- 10:00 p.m. Thursday 9:30 a.m.-12:30 p.m. NO\·ernber 13.1980 J:J() p.m- 6:00p.m.

8:00 p.m.-10:00 p.m. Friday N001-cmber 14, 1980 9:30 a.m.-1 1:00 a.m. 2- Tiut tbe Committee Invite Mr. Oordon Fair·

wcatber, Commi5Sionet of Human Rights and Mr. Muwcll YaJden. Co1nmissiODtr of Off1cial Langua~t to appur befOte-the oommiuee, foUowing the meetings with the Honourable Jeao Chretien:

J-That after the opening :Uatemcnt or a witnen, fifteen (JS) minutes be aUocated to each of the three polit ical parties.. and that thereafter ten (I 0) minute$ be oelk)Cattd to eac.h member of the Committee:

Tbat f« the ten (10) minute round tbe Chair give priority 10 n.c:mbers or the-COmmittee who have not yet perticip.ated ta):Jng into aooounl the proportion of the tcprcsencation of the political parties on the Commit· .... On motion of Mr. lapierre 5econded by Mr. Mackasey

the First Rcpon of the Su~mlttee on Agenda ai)Cf Procedure-was concurred in.

Tbe M inister made a .statetncnt and the witness anS'<''trtd que$tiom1.

At 4:00 o'clock p.m., the committee adjourned to the «:nJI of the Ch:tit .

Rcinc oorn:eroant la Con.stit\ltion du Cun01d:lo pubiM: par le gwwrnernent le:. 2 octobrt 1980.

Voue sou.s.-oomitC a convenu de faire lcs rc()()rnmanda· ti<tns sui'iantcs:

!-Que le ptoa.ramme de rC11ni<)fl$ ;sui\'llnl pour la s.cm:~ine du 10 novernbt'e 1980.soitadoptC:

Lemer«:r<:di de15 hl0A I8heutcs 12 no~embre 1980 doe 20 hcure.s a 2Z hcure5 Le jeudi de9hl0 l 12 h30 13 nO~ett'lbrc 1980 de 15 h JO a 18 hcure:~

de 20 lw:ures A 22 hcutcs Le vendrcdi 14 nQYembre 19'80 de9h30i 11 hcures. 2~ue le ComitC in,•ite M. Gordon Fairwe~ther,

Commls$;tire-dell droitt de la pcr!IOtlne, et M. Maxwell YaJden. Commt»aire nux l3ng11es ofrtticlle$, A ()()rnpll· mitre aprCs les rCunion.s qui auront eo lieu a~cc l'hono­rable Jun ChrCtien:

3-Qu'a.pras la. ~claration pttfiminajre d'un tCmoin, quinz.c minutet (IS) S<ltent a.ccord6e.s d cha.cun des trois panis politiques et qu'eruuite di~t ;mtra minutes (t O) ;sC)lent a.ccordU:s d chaque membre do ComitC;

Qu'en ce qui tovc.he ceUe pCriode de dix ml.nutcs (10), le pr&idcnt :tOOCH"de la prioritC a u.x membre5 du ComitC. qui n'Ont pas cnOOte partlcipt, en tenant compte de la representation proportionnellc de$ p:trtiet pofitl· qud sl~geant au Comit~ • S11r motion de M . L;tpierre, 1tppuy~- par M. Mackasey.

le ptemier rapport du sous·comitC du progr.~mme et de l.a proctdure ttt adopt6.

Le Minisue rait unc d6cl.uation et le tl!flll)in rCpond aux ~ueuloru.

A 16 be\ln:s, le Cqmite SUJpe:nd ~es lr:tvaux jusqu'! noou'I'CIJe convoc::atjon du pr&ident.

Lu CQfT¥1/i~rs du Comf/J

Richard Pr~gent ,

Paul Bellsle,

1· 11·1980 Constitution du Cat1ada 2:7

EVIDENCE

(R«Qrded bp £/WI'Q'IIk ApptUOfiiS)

Frida)'. No~embcr ?, 1980

(TtXIt>)

• 09-43

Tht JMat Cltaltlllaa (Mr. Joyal): The meclins .,.,.m oomc-to order. I think thl&t 4:'1-erybody h.u a copy or the motion as amended put through b)' Mr. Beany. h will rnake our 'llo'OI'k tasler this tnOrnln& and we will lry our bc~t to C(lnCfude on tUl VU)' a,s.pect of our prdiminary work.

Mr. Sally, did you have time to read the motion as it has b«:./1 r«opkd? If it is really in llne. willr "''bllt you bad in mind •>e could continue the di.scu.s'5ioOO~ a.nd m.1ybe go on with it IU 900n a.s po$$ible 1

Mr. 8talty: Yes. that is my uodcr.standing or wbat the mocion was. Mr. Chairman.

Tllt Jolnr Cliull«•uln. (M.r • .Joya0: So I am open to reccl"e ootrunenu «pro~ I• on tbe r:nocion. Scna1or Awnin.

SeeatOI' Ausdn: Wbcn tbe bells rang la:« ni&Jrl, Mr. Cbalr· man, I "''** puttina tbe qllc.stion 10 you and I u id tbnl I -..'OUid lkfcrthe question to this time~ Taking Mr. Bcauy'a motion as it stud:s amended, my understanding 6f il3 impliCll.lio.n is tbat we •'<JUld be pulling our.sei'N.:S ~n a bit of a $trait jacket- 1 am not $uscc:stin.g that the implkatiotl it me3nt-but inad~cnent· ly -..·bat 'A'<JUld happen lt tbat ~ f n() membt:r ot the ()pp<ltltlon catne, we would be un.able to ~ontinue our proooediltJ$ aDd- in addition •-e woukl be unable to amend the rule until such time a.s a member of the opposititm came.

I can •.mdttstand the «lDCetn of oppositk>a membera that we micbt, for e.:ample .• want 10 beha~e in a way that would ~11 meetings withQut due notice or ai~-e them a.n opporhlnity to come. I say that hypothcticaJI)o'. I ~~o-ookl not bcli~·e tbat they would be concerned that in t.-uth "''e would not act in good fa ith tO..•iiJds all membets of this committee. Out my ~aae.s· tlOn then is that in view of tbc. twin problems, Mr. 8C3tty's motion be .amc.nded, or if it i.s not nmendllb-Je,. tb;1t a new motJQn sl.and in its place.

• 094S

The motion that I v.-ould sub!tl1t, the subua nce of h. is that the quoNim of the commiucc shall incJudc at kos1 one member or the Official Opposition u;cept that if the com­mcrn:emcnt of the firtt ()of uny ~ubsequ.en t tittin& of the-com~ miuee:. on any da.y is delayed mote than 30 minutes b)' ~son of tbe absence of membcrt ol the-Official O~lion, If nocjce of that tl ttins was ai''tll at a pr.cviou.s sillillJ of the axnmiuce, f01 the re013indcr of tbat day the quOtum shall be detttmlned wltbout ~rerenoe to pl.lrt)' affili.ation and the dcl.aycd $itting shall be e.Ktendcd ror a period cqui ~·a lent to the period of delay.

I "''Ould h()fle l hat with these: l>I.ISSesti<>n$ we l'Ould Pf'IX:eed PMI thl$ partiou.lar procedural item.

Tlte Joint Cll•irm•• (Mr, J'o}'ll): OOC:$ everybody b11Vt: a copy of the ah«Bali\•e motion?

Se• ator At~!ltin: Would )'Oil di..s1ribute copies of nly Proposal?

-

T2MOICNAG£..c;

(ErtrtginrtltiMt tltc-mmlque} Le vendrcdi 1 AO\•cmbre 1980

( 1Taductit>n)

U ~opr&i4ent (1\t . • loyaJ): A l'6rda s'il vol/..5 pl11it. Vou..s O\'C:Z tolll. je crois, un e~cmpbirc de: la motion molirtte pmentfe par M. Bc-auy. Notre travail s'cfl trou,-erll done. fadll1~ oe malin cl nou!l alklona fa ire de. notre mieux po11r rC~&Icr (;CUe queslion prCiiminairc.

A~-ez-vous cu le temps de lire oc:tte not1velle version de votrc. motion, mondeu1 Bcatty? Si cUe ocw~pond A vot re ;l!ltnle, nous pOurrio.u re-prendre l.a discuu l01t pour terminer 1n15.si tapidement q~ JX~Ssiblc'!

M. Btatt)': Oui, monsieur le prCsil.km. oc:la OOt'respood bien.

JA. coprfsldtfl1 (M. JoyaJ): Je sui:s done ptCt A n:oevoir l'O$

CQmmenlaires ou ~os proposldons au tujet de oeuc motioo. stnatcur Au.stin.

Le ~uuur AusU~~: Lonquc les cboche. ont sonni! hier !IOh, mon.sieur k prCsidcnt, j'.aJI.aiJ V(Mii propo$er mcs (:OfTimentai· ~- Je k fais done maintct~ant, Si nous acceptoo.s la u~otiOJl modlfi~ de M. Bcauy. je crains qu'cUe ait pour com.bqu.ence de oou.s lier ks mains. Je ne dis pu que tcllc IIQit l"intent.ion, mais supposona que par un malhc:"reux ba.sard aueun mcmbtc de l'opposh!M tie vleeme, nou.s I)C poon ions pounuivu. nos tra,·uu_x et nous ne- pourriOnil non plus modifitt k rCa;kment j-usqu"A oc qu'un membte de: !'opposition soil pr&cflt.

Je c.rois oomprcndre que ks membre.s de l'opJ)OI'Iition crai· gne:•ll que nous DC convoquiom du reunions sans · pi&wls t~urfhnnt pour qu'il• pubsen1 se liWrer. Ce n'CU4 qu' ui)C hypo· tbesc et j'o.se c.roite qu' il.s ne: noos pr~ICJl t pes de tcllca inten· tlons. N!anmoins, ~tant doont et double ptobU:nw:, je pro~ que Ja motion de M. Beatty soit modifiht ou si c.:"cst im~iblc, qu'elle aoit rcmplae6c per une nou,-elle motion.

Jc. proposeotais. moi-mCme, 11 mution suivante: que le quorum du comite COIYIPftntle au moins un memlwc- dc- I'Oppc> .sition offieielle, $0US rCserve qu"aprCs unc altente de pillS de 30 minutet pour absence de membru de !'Opposition ofrk-ic--Uc. toute rWnion ay;r.nt 1!16 dtinrent annonc~e kni de br prCc!!· den1e, goit 1enue cc jout avec un quorum Ctablj sans tgard a l'npparten.an«: de partl et qu'clle soit prolong& d'une ~riode ~qui"alente au tetard.

J'dpt:rt que ocuc proposition nous permeuta de r~glcr ccltc ques.tion de proc:Cdurc..

Le copc-kl;ent (M. JO)'al}: Avn-vou.s tous un exc-mplalre de ccue auuc motion?

Le .sEt~atew- Austlll! Voudriez-vou.s di~tribuer des exemplai· res de ma prorxxsitiOCI '!

2: 8 Constit\Jtion ol C.nuch

(To:t) The Joint Cblunu (Mr • • 10)'11): Yell. ~rt~inly. Mr. Epp.

Mr. [pp: Thank yoo, Mt. Chairman. I was hopina we .,..,)Uid, <!nd I believe ~-e cnn, &t:t I he-meedn&i off to a proper start a nd t.hal we au:• possil>ly ge.t to wiU1CSSC$ today, That i.s our objective. Tht& mocjon puts that iOO'!ewhat in doubt. tllld foe this reason. Sen11tor Au::Hin sayt. and t»sc:s his whole: prtmise on tbe hypothetical possibility tltat the opposition ~Id not $how up for oon1miuet. He migtlt lU -..·tll u§e. the­word that he has in mind, ~nd that is that 111·e would boyc:ou the commiuec-. ih111 is the whole basis 011 which his a~umcnt reus. I 'olo'Ollld 3U&Jcst le> him, 11.$ fro.nkJy ••s I could. that he: dl$n\IJ1s ttl:tt possibility fto1n his nlind immediately b«:ausc. tbat is n<>t our intenllon, th;ll is not our purf)Oe!lc, that i.~ not our view and that is 001 the manner in wbieh we are going to proceed.

SeMIOr Alti'tln: Nor did I suggest it "-'llS. Mr. f.pp: WtJI. I am gl:td th:u StnatOf Austin hu n!Odfntd

it l>ut that is the but.is on .,..hich his proposal tC$tS 1>cc.1usc if that is now dismissed from his mind tht11 I suggest 'o\'t do not ba,·c: to look at hli propos:al at :ell, fint of all.

Seoondl)', he says that lt "'-oold put tl1~ comminee-in a strait jacket if no member or the oppos._itjon appea.rcd. Mt. Chiir· man, the msnner in "'biell this committee- is going to function is Join& to be a reflection un you, Qn )'Qllr co•thu.innlln, I submit witb Jreatest respect, on my$Clf and to C\'ery member on this comn'liUcx:. That is just the rea lily because Canadians are ot>vk>u.sly 8()1ng to look 111 this committee in u objective 11 manner as poSS-ible. They bavc a view that tbis oommjtt" has •• job to do, and if soy member on this oommlttee appears to 001 meet those ol>jcc::tivc:s e>f a:euinathe committee "''OJk done, tht tl the court of publ jc opinion wiU judge~ So the matter of the-strait jacket I do not think Is valid tittltt.

In reV'Crse. if Sen.ator Austin feels th111 the opposition could bo)'COit t.he committee meeting. this !lame thing can appl)' to government mtnlbtr.s In the-very Ume 1t.'lly. There 1:ould be- a witness who is just ab:lolutely opposed to the gO\'ctnment's proposidon and d1at gO\·ernment membt 4'S wooJd not want to hear any nWlfc. of that wltnes:s either. So the ume. thing appfid and I do not think t h.at in their ca.se they would want to boyoou or will boycott. I do not think for a 0101nent ttley w(luld. Nor will wt . But the ar&ument reus on thllt wh<Jfc prcmiK thut Sen:HOr Austin h01s p1.11 for'~''i.rd, that bo)'cott is pos$-ibfe. Additionally, as a result then I do not see a twin PJOblern. I do not see a problem at ttll.

Dui there is one utber iiJJI.Imet~ l that has to be put fOI'Ward. Mr. Cha.irman, and tbat is in the meeting of the- House WdtrS a discu.sslon on quorum Ms t;~ken plu:e. The Govc:m· mcnt House Lcuder, Mr. Pinard. has gh-en the anuranoe to ottr House Lcadt(S, and I abo believe t l~t the NOP House Leader was In attcndttnoe, that the mo.nner in which qllorum bas been u&cd in other c:ommittees, namely Wt the Official Opposition must be present in mder that tt.t commiuec-ean proceed. is the same rC&imc: that "'OI.IId we u.scd in this oommiuee. Thai has been a direct undtttaking l>y tbc govttn· ment House l eader. Tl1at undertaking 1t.'C.Iui''C ~<~ken in good faith. We .accept chat unden<~king and we intend to operate on that basis. Additional!)'. the government Hou11e- lellder ha!l s;aid thecre would be-no t.rk:ks.. We ha,·e abo pre«Wcd on that

(Trafl$/ati<ml Lt coprkident (M. Joy•l): Oui, ..-crtain.ement. Monsieur

Bw. M. £pp: Merd nlonsieur le. prCsident. J'cspCnit. que nuu.t

pounlons., c~ je pcnse que lt(li.IS le JX'IUV(IIU e ncore, ''~ti table· mcnt commencer ~~ travauJt et mCme entc:ndn: c!t:s tCm<:Mn.s aujoutd'hui. Tel est IW)tre ot>jcctlf. Ctue mction rtmcl t~t cel11 en quu1lon pour la raison sui'l\lntc. l.c: $Cn11ttur Austin fondc soo argument sur une absence h}'pothetiquc de l'opJXISi· lion. 11 pourtail aller j1.1Jqu'au bout de $11 pens& et nous acc:\lscr de w u!oir boycotttt Jc. oomitt. Voi lA. sur qtloi repose »>C'' arg-umenl, A1.1s.si franchcmen t qu'il m'e~t pcmtis de le faire. je- lul su.gg~re de <:bass« immCdiatcmcn' cettc po$sibilitC de son esprit, ar tcllc: n 'eS1 (YoU notrt Intention. tel n•eu pu not re buL Nous n'avons nullcment l'intentioo otle nous oonduire ainsi.

Lt sfnatwr Au&tin: Nine: I'Ai•je $U88iirl!e .. M. E,~ Je suit. heurc:ull que le- .sC-nateur Austin ~mcmc

ceue hyJ)Qihbe, fotldemcnt tnemc de sa prop-osition, ev;r d11ns eec:as. elle n'a plu.s de r:ei&()n d'~uc ..

Dcu.x i~mcmtnt. il prttend que l'ob.scncc: de reprisc:nunts de l'opp:~~Siti<lfl Ji~ra lt lcs mains du comitt. Monsie1.1r le prC~ident, le foottionnemenl du oomitC rej~tillirn sur \IOUS, sur "')IJC <.'()pr(fident, llvtc tout le respect que je vous dois, flit mol· mCmc et sur c:hllque membrt du oomit~. Ces• ocla la rtalitt car iJ est tvident que IC$ CAnudien!S ,_uivront les d~l ibl:ratioM de cc comite de-f.a -;on aussi objective que possil>lc. lis c:on.1idl:· renc que ce com.it! a un tranil A fal re. et si un de oc:s membrcs, quel qu'il soit. ne rcmplit pas son contrAt. e't:$1 Je. tribtmlll de ropinjon pubUqu.e qui Ju.g,era. P~trler de majns lites ne tic:nt dooe pu non plus.

A l'inver$1:, Ji le- sC:nateur Austin craint q11e I'C5 membrcs de: I' opposition ne boyc:ouent ks sCu.n~:d du oomi t~. on ptut a voir Ill mlme cralntc, s'agiuant des membtei d1.1 gou~mcmcnt. Un tCmoin tout l fA it ~ aux PfOpositions du gouv«ncmenl devant eompara1ue, lcs dC.pu tC:s du gou~me:mtn t pourr.1knt bien ne pas \'Ouloir l'entendre. Cc pourrait dc;,nc: C.tre l11 ml:mc­situo.tion, et je ne veu"' pas croile 11 la possibHit6 d'Un boyc:ot· tage de ltur part. L'idCe ne m·emcure-m!me pas. 11 tn va de mCmc: pour nous. L'argument du "natc1.1r Auostin rcpo6unt sur cclte rauue hypothl:se-de boycon~tg,e. je ne \'Oojs done I! auwn probl~n.e. ni. A fortiori, doul>lc: probiCme.

Tootefoi;, mon~ieur k ptl:tident. il rcs1e UJ\l autre argument au 11ujec de cc-quorum. argument prCsenlC: lor& de: la rCunioo deJ le.~detl de b Chambre. l e le:tder du gouvemcmeont, M. Pinard. a assure IC:$ kadcrs de la Ch:1n1bre. je erois q-ue le leader du NPD ttait tgalement pr&c:nt, que: la rCsk du quorum utili11l:c· dan!l d'autre.s ootnit~. notantr.ncl'lt )'obligation de la prtscnce de l'opposition ofl'iciclle pour Qu'une ~unloo pu.i~e commencer, seta ~gakm«<t appliq1.1Cc dans oc: comitC. Le leoder du SOI.Ivemc:ment en ehambre s'y es.1 cngag£ eJtptts· s~mtnl. Nous avons aeccptC eel tngascmeru de bt.>nne fnL No~» :~eeeptoos ~~ cn.g,age-mtnt et nou.s ft\'OfiS !'intention de: nous y oooformcr. En outre, le: 1c:ader du g<~uvern 1!1ncnt A la Chambre a d!dar6 qu'il n'y au.rai t aucune tromperic. NOU$ oo1.1s .somme Cg;,lement fiC:s :i tttte-db:lttrlltion: bi~n que j 'aie

(Tutt>] bas.i~ and while I might have m«V1tkJn11 I rtill will uc:cep4 ~11~1 In good f;aitb,

• 0950

Sa I su~;&dl to )'00. Mr. Cbairman, that we should dispor;e of thi3 miJUc.r aloll.J the fines ol Mr. B~uy•s modon and get Oft With OUI first !o~o'ltM:U.

TIN Jofat O alrman (Mr. Jo)-al): $en;& tor Austin. St• ator Austl~t: J think the-lead point. Mr, Chairman, is noi

the-Intentions or the Official Oppos:ition or the opposit ion. or of the 10\-ernment memben bete-. Tit~ lead point it what I too~ to be a totally irud\•ertt:nt ru-uh in the motion s"bminc:d by Mr. Be:Ht)'; thllt is., that in tbe event .. remote t:hough it may be. in intentKia. that oo opposition member Clime. this CQ!mmittee would be unable tO do it$ business a nd thi' tom.miuce wouJd be- unable to meet unti:l such time as an oppos.i tion member deQded to oome. Now J cannot befit'\•e the OITicill 0 P$)QIIition really w&.nt thAt eircumftanoc to take plac~ aDd Mr. Epp bas ju3t mude dear in his po"e&entation to this committee th:U this i5 not the intet'lt of tbe. Off1clal Opw:sition.

So I cannot see on what b;esiJ tbe motion that wu made b)' Mr. Butty could possibly be pressed further here, a.nd I would carncsdy suggest that the. prof)Oi:al I madt: a fe•· moments ago 'ii'OOid eliminate b()th c;c;mocrns: tbe tcc.:bni"J concern to which I ba~-e addres$Cd m)-sclf tbi5 morning, aod tl1e concern., if it is <1 CODCtfll, aDd Mr. Epp says it is oot, oo the pu t uf the oppoeition that the &ovemment miJ:bt in any \lo'lY try to frut trate tt.e boldinJ of beatings of this com.n.htoc. I believe my proposal. which is now before member$ ol the opposition, can: be looted at and v.·ould com.pk:tely A\'Oid and climiiUite tbe u~·ln hyp;H;hctical coocc:rns that Mr. Btatty't motion bat put before o5.

n e Joint ChaJnnan (Mr. Joyal): Mr. Tobin. Mr. ToiMn: Mr. Cft3irman, 1 ..,..iJt ' 'd tbdrll"''· TIN Joint O.alr• u (Mr. Joyal): Are- there any ~her

Jpcal:ers "''bo want to c;omment or to ptOptl&t amendments to the m.odon put by Mr. Beatty?

Mr. Bcauy. Mr. Beauy: Mr. Chairman, I do not W\llnt to protr., c;t thU

boc:ause I do not think we are doing a service either to the oommillee or to the Canadian people to spe-nd the-time-o( the com.miuce in diwus:skm of suictJy proocdural manerl. We 'A'OU)d like. on our side o f tbe HoiiSe, to &ce the- first "''itness caUed this aftctnoott. We want to set On with the prOC:eedings; We want to give Canadians tl.e opportunity to appear before tbe committee as quickly as po$$lble.

Ben I do 1)01 thin~ Senator Austin's comments and PfOJX>$41)S e.n go uncballengcd. The fact is that what SenAtor Austin Is proposjlli is a double Btandllrd. l-Ie r1.iscs the pro.spc:c:t that the committee could find i!Sclf in a strait jactel b«au5e of the absenoc of the Ofncial OpposittQn; yet wluit he i• 3US&eBting is that we ahould ~\·e a provision in here whereby if tbe same rnus slokncss 'olo-ere to amict the g<wernment n.ember.s at be is wonied might aMkl the m-embers of tbc opposition, tbc <:Ommiuec would be in exactly the same s-trait jacket.

(TrQducrion)

pcut·Ctre quelquc.s rCscn'e$ 3 oc s-ujc:t. o~anmoins j':•occp:c s;• parole de-ba-tule roi.

Je proposerais dooc. monsieur le pthident, ctuc noO$ rCgliolt$ cette qu~nlon tel que pro!X)$C d••ns I•• motion de M. Btlli!Y et que DOll$ pa.uions i notre premier t~noin.

Le co, ris-idut (M. Jo)·•l): S6natwt Austin. Le stn•teur Austin: A moo avis. mons-icu• Je. )'M'ii~ide~. la

que$1ion c:entrate n'a ricn! ~·oi r avee let inteJUions des mem­bre.s de-I'OJlllOSition orticielle ou de l'oppc:>sit ion. ni des mem· brcs du BOO''crncmcnt ici pr~.sen". la ques.t ion cer;tralc <-'ett que la motion pfiscmle- par M. & ;my a po41r r-Csultat non \'OIIIu que dam l'i<v<ntualiti au.ssi CbgnCe puisse+elk s:en:bltr qu'aucuo mcmbre de I'Oppo$ition ne se pr~stnte, le priscnt oomitl: st veNal! da.ns l'impOJ!Iibilite d'efTectucr .son travail jusq11'i ce qu' un mcmbrc d'on des )XIttis d'oppositiol'l dktde de venir. Or j'a i du mal A eroire que I'Oppositj~; officiCIIc dlliire un tel itat de cho6e- et d'ailleur~ M . (!:pp vient d'Cnoncei claireroenl devnnt nou.s que ce n'est pas Id l'h•tcntior. de­l'Opposition offieielk:.

Pour cette raiSIOO done. je De ~'Ois pas OOII'Iment on )Xl'lrrait continuer A SOf'lger ! adopter Id l:a moti()n de M . Bcauy, et j'aimuai_s fairc Vli iOiF que la proposil.iOD que j'ai (aite jJ }' 11.

quelques instants a:iminerait nos deux pr&lceup:atiqo•: celle sur le plan technique dont j'ai pQ.rli -ce mAtin et l'outre, si '"·e,t bien unc prioeeupq:tic.>n. de J'Oppo.sition, mu is M. Epp Pf(tend que non. que le gou~'Crncment pounait tenttr p3r n'impmc q ue! mo)'cn d'ern~cher que notre oomitb l)eJii~ge. Jc c:roii que mu prow:si tion que j'ai m~intenant soumise aux m«nbm de. l'oppoeitioo mkite d'~tre ~tudi6t, pui.squ'eUc ~vherait el C:timi· .,e-mit compl~tement ltl deu11 p~upati()ns bypot.Mtiques que I~ mocion de M. Oeat~y a soi.IIC'o'ie5.

Le co,-is-idn t (M. Jo)·al): Monsieur TOOin. M. Toltia: Monsieur le pli:sidcnt, rctiret. moo nom. Le copr&:ideltt (M. Jop l): l)'autres OTO\tcur$ veulcnt·ils

raire des runarques ou proposet des amende•uems A 1:1. m()tian pr&cntl!e I»' M. Beauy?

Monsieur BeaU)'.

M. &atty: Monsieur le pri!iident, je ne tieAs JXlS A ~tircr le d~bat car nous IWl rendotls pas lA service ni au t.'(lmitl!, 11i ;Ill pul>JK: cunadien, on ~:o!Ulllttlwt le-tt:mps du comitC i discutcr des questioos purement de proc6durc.. Noue parti &lmualt ''Oir le- J)ftmier t~moin oontplltaflre Cltt apr&--midi. Nou:~ VU4ll<lns que nos tr»~·au.x annocnt; nous Y<luk m$ donn.er aux Canadiens la possibilil~- de oomparattre devant le oomit6 Je. plus t& p06tible.

Tootefois. j'estimc qu'on ne peut lai.sser pas~r Id rc·n~>at·

quet et le$ pr<lpMilkln$ du tl:natcur Austin. En fa it, le 5Cn.teur Auftin propose deull normc$. Ll lais$<: entM-'oir Ja possibilitt que le oootitl: se rcttouve daR.s une impwe A eau~e- de- I'Ab· scnoc de membres de l'~ition ofTKiclle; pou.rtant, il pro· pose que nous adoption.s unc dispositioo .5elon laqudlc ti le mlme mAl epidimique-(rappa.it le$ mc-mbtes du touvemement, mal qo'il craint que les membre.s de !'Opposition n'attrappem. le con'lltii-st re1rouverait euctemcnt dansl11 mhne imp:lM!c.

.,

2 : 10 Con.1ti11ulon or Canado 1·11-1980

(TurJ Mr. Clllirmu. I thilll il WOIIW be 11Mfw.l to tal:~ a loot

perh•Pf ll th~ ptOCJCCdin,J oltloose: of Commons eom.mittect durlnJ the term of thiJ Parliamcru. Then have indeed bocln

numcrou• occasions on whleh •urricient me.mbcn or a commit· tee.., of various commlu.ces, were withdrawn Il l the laP minute

prior 10 a \'Ote, aod tho HO\Ist oomm.iuecJ wue 1101 able 10 ao oe and t1 b tbat l'Ote. INt I dunk Ut~ t«''fd •ill show, ud I

dun\ mcaaben of the prca wlto an lw~ ud who lu~

covered othct com.min«t are vuy much aw:ue ot this facr, that it hu not been becausc membcN of the opposition have

been withdrawn. it has been because membcrs or the-Of!po.-l· lion OUlnumbered mcmbc:n of tbe s~~rnmenl bel-:ti!Je 1he • ·hipt wuc: not doinl their job .,,

Mr. £1ft Euttly.

Mr. lldUy: •.. ud bcei~Ue the ten oltltc me:mben of the aov«nment l'ithdrew ~heir members, lhlll puuin.a (hose eotn•

mitteOJ ln a strait jaekot.

Mr. Chalrmao. Senator A.ullin says he 11 not WOJried about a.ny party in tbis oomm.luee takiQJ th.Jt1011 olaetto. ddibcr­

atdy, 11111 I accept that. I acttp1 .-lsat he l&)'l. Wlut lie b worried about is u ONni:pt. u oYCni'1ht o. the part of all membCin or t.he oPJ'IO'iclon 10 that we hJppc:t1 to miu the

oommillce pi'O«<edinJll at the same lime; or thnt we all a~ Sttk:lu!n by nu 31 tbe llnlC time Of 11 11 lnCapabk or tomin&. and the Whips arc incapable or oomin,a. .~ the Whips ar.

iltClplbM of Ml:bstituti., Ill)' other mnnba' to repla~ aey of the: CoaMt'Ylltm tne"mbtrt wllo are away, If tU5 is the coo­

""* it it ia alldt a valid COft«n'': lillt 1.11 ol lk owosidOit

could ~-Udden.ly be wiped~~ by dl:tnse 01 by (aiJll'i& mc:moty, then I wo.ld s.ussest thtt we should be equally COJ!ocrncd that tbe u.rnc ton o( vin11 ooold a fflict members of the

g<WC:mme~~t.

• 09SS

Wlllt Scut« Austi:n il ptoposln& il thll there be one

sta:ndard for the goverflment oltd a toeall'y dlrfe.renl st;uwf:ard for the oppo.ition. If ! OVtrnment membett an not bc-fe, thnt they have vetoed by thdr 1bte:nee: )'et if oppo,idon mcrnbcrt

a.re bOi he:re. that the p~rnmcnt mc:mbert, in .pe:~did isala" t1aa, slllo•dd be alto.~ lO JO 011 aJooe.

Mr. CM.irnu.n. tbcr< I' a f~o~ttht:r ptOtcctlon ob¥1ou:sJy that

tbe J(WCirnmtnt membocrt hue, and tl!lls i1 noc in a.ny ony a reneetlon on the chair or on tbc fairneu whb which eilher

cllairmu hat prC$ided today. The fact ia that boch ehstrmcn o(

tlW oommhtte are mc:mbcn of tbe Ubtral CI.IKUt. Tbe l.ibero

al cauc.w aw ~ We tlmply "•'* fiMttt witlto.t GM ol tile dWr!DC-11 ill tM chair. Tkrc e&lliiOt k m«tinp at

wllkh Libcrtl membeta are noe prennt. plainly and simply. In nddltlon to that. unde-r tho tcrnu of the quorum prorisiom a• they m nd now, it would be impo6:sible ror lbe appc»lllon

membc:n by themsdvct tO utitfy that qll4)f~o~m proviNon and tor theft to be a 'l'(ltt taken i• the abKncc or the ot.bet Liberal

...... w..

,,...,/.,,..,, Mocaiau' k prisick•t. illiU'IIt paui'-Ctrt otik cl'uami.ct Id

dCitblrations d.a Nl'llit& de la Ckambre des eommu:rte:$ u

OOUF$ de CC-tiC ICSiion. IJ dt Ctl crfe:t urrivt i m;~intct teptfsCS qu'on r~ire A la demi(.rc minute juste uv11.111 un ~c le~

membru d"un comitC, de di\•ct• comlth, oe qui a e•npkbe les

eomitC. clc 11 Cham'bre de vOicr. Tf:~Utcroit, le procb-,>e:rbal

moattt bid, d ,e cois qK lo rcprbcataoll c:k la preMC qui

1001 iQ et qtd oet .sum d'uuu C011'111t& n SOM p.rf•dcmcnl «n.ttei.entt, cc ne aotu pu la membra de rOppo~itklr:l q•• ont

6t.C rc:t~rls rnai• bien paroe Cf~M; cct dctnien tcaknt plus nombreoll que la 1nembtelf d u (lOU'crnemenl, paN:e que lc:s

whips ne font f»l 1cur travail , , ,

M. Epp: £ucolcmmL

M. &any: •• , et parce qH In a•tra membra du JOUYCT•

nemc:nt se iORI tc:lirCs qu-e Id comh& se sont rc:trw'tb dam une impa51C1,

Monsleur le prCtJdt tlt.. k a~1111.teur Austin d6elare qu'il ne

craint pat qu'a~o~eun parti. id au oomiti, nc: prcnnc: Cl' 1enre de IMS1Ue df.li~t. et jc: ~• biC-11. k Cf"'O.te. J'acccple c:e

q~o~ll a cbl. 11 ctalnt qvc toos la me~nbres des penl:t d'opposi­

tloo ratcnt un.e Kanc:e du comitf per io:uh'tttlu•cc: 11 cn.int

(jUC nous soyon~ to.u en m!mc auelnu de trippc c1 lncapttblc:s d'tu..sister A Ill r6union e1 que, de sureroit, les whips ~lent

lneapablea de rcntplac::CI' kJ membra~ C-11 lit re par d 'aotrC-3

deput& oankn'eteurt ptr c:Jiemple. SI c' tst une cnhue foDdCc.. •'il cniat vfrit.lbkmem que l"epposktc:. soit teudaJ11 an&nlit

p.r la m:a!Hic eta pe.t •.a trw de- ..moire. je l111i rfpoedrai que

n<NS ck M!Cte <0U ni.)US pourriont cnlndte tout ntanc que les

m~mea 11Cintll rr~appcnt lc:s membret du partl au pw'f'Oir.

Autrrmnu dk, M. Austin propok qv'il y ait ~MftOIIIIC pour

les membtts d~o~ ptt.rti au poovolr et une :unre ub d1fT&t11:tt pour lc:s membnt des partis d'oppo~~ition. Si kt membrc:~ du

p11r1i a u pouvolt 811!11 absenu, ill lmposcnt leur vt•o par lcuJ ab5eoce. P.ar contre, s.i lcs mc.mbrct de~ partis d'oppothion .sont tu absc:• ts, kf .nctnbtes do p1t1i alii po~~woir pcuvc.t y alkr

pxmt!!tl Cl pol~ k:s ltaW'II.._

Monsk:ur k ,U•dc:nt, t11 pl .. t ck ccJa, de tou~.e tfldoMCC- les membra du ptrti au pouv(llr Jo•incnt d'11oe protection que n'ont pas ltll membrcs det r urtlt d 'opposition, En cffel. le11

cku~: prCsldenu du C(lmit~ soot de• mem.bres du C:lat.lt\11 llb&al Cda ne ooMtllue J11.5 vne crit~ue • l'iprd dtt prUfcknts e:t

• t"tfttiC't abiotf!lll'tUit pas m calf:N l'tq.rte da ~ qu'ilt

011t rcndacs a.,jo.nl'hw. Quoi q•'il u toit. le caucu MhaJ est

ptOt~C, le COn'UCf; M peat .~ment pU .W: rftUtiJ UM la

prbenoe d'un du dt:u" ooptatdcnu. Autrcmenl dlt, il ne ptl.lt

y a'/Qir de •t union 5410~ 1..11 prhenc~ d"au moiM un cUput~·

liberal. C'a-t •unl simple que Cdl. l!n outre, conrormbneCit

tu.\ rCg!c:s de qvorum que nout a'o'Oflt .adoptee., k• d.fpt.tt& det pan:i$ d'oppodtioe ae po~~n2.iuu pu i eu ~n~Jt OONcitlltt le

qiK'ItWn et ik M ~t doftt pu 1 avoir de "'Ce CO l'absence dtdfll"ta libbau.

7-JJ-1 980 Con1tilution du Canllcb ! : 11

fTexttJ All t.he members of the oppositioo are asking. soeing tbat

Senator Aus.tin stresses bis good fa ith and 53)'ll be dOd no.t feel tbcre is any trie.ktt)' going on here. is that he demonstrate equ.al good faith and ooc ask that a provisioo (ot ·v-eto it1 absentia b)' the governmel'lt membeti tl»uld e.xist • ·ben simi· lar provltions do 1)1)4 u ist to protect the members of the oppocnition. All .,.e are aski.ng is that tbcre be equity. Wt are. not asking few any special pr<witlon.s here 'll'hid• arc nQC there for the membtN ofthe 10'1-ernment,

U ~bideal (M. Jo,..J): Merci, Monsi~.r Bcauy. SCna­teur Au.siin,

&nator Autlf• : When respc.mdina to Mr. Btatty, I found ahe two halve$ of bis 1-'&Ument in QOOfl~t He be1ao by saying that this session oouJd not begin if none or tbe- government members came, and this is true; but it is the restlh ol t he I'C30iutioos of both the House aDd the Senate that tbtre are required to be a quorum of 12. a.nd there are not 12 ~tion me-mbcu. So we-are in the hAnds W wr mas1en, the Hoti$C of Commons and the Senate. in terms ol the nature of the. quorum. The last half of hit argument, I would simply addtt:S:S by sa r ing that I ~ve tried in my proposal to be absolutely and $Crupulously fair to the opposition. Not'llithnandlng every· thing M r. Btatty bu uMl, he hu not llddre$Sed himself to the: simple point that the. opposidon, I bdieYe inadvCJ1ently--e.od eertainJy I believe it ha.s no present itne.ntion ol the use ol a possible boycou eo brlr~g into uu oo my part the same:-word a$ 'A'U used by Mr. Beatty~uld (ruPratc thc4CSsioos here.

I "''OUJd be-quite bnppy simply to withduw my PfOP0$<!1 and to have: Mr. Beitty withdraw bis prop.;wal. and gee on wilh more substanth·c Jssues. I do want to point Wt.. in rpite or my oot~currence- that we shoul4 Jel on and bear the minister. the motion be(ore this committee it a ptoctdutaJ motion made by M.r. Be-auy.

Mr. Rutty: Mr. Ch;irrmn. I '~~Wld uk tbat the mocion be put and chat V.'C ha\'C a recorded division.

Le eoprtsldut (M. Joyal}: AJors, kt h0t1012bkt membres de ce ComJte sont prhs pour le vote. Q11eb sont CCil:t qui sont en fllvcur de la motion td le que pr&ent~e po.r M. 8t3tty? All th.ot;e in fa\'OtH of the motloa put by Mr. Beatty, please ralu their baOOs..

Mr. Butry: I wllnt .1 r«:<>rdcd vote. Tbt Joint Chair111 .. (Mr. Jor•l): You want a R~Cordcd

vote. WiiJ the d«k call the names then.

• 1000

Motion neptivcd: yeas. 8: nays, 14. Mr. Bnttr: Mr. Chairman. Mr. Baker, the. Houte- l eader

of tbe OfOdal Opposition ju3t cnme in. Mr. Cpp had men· tioned tbat the~ had been a meecing ol House Lt3ders in \11'hic.h the mauer of a quarum wlllt di~c:ussed. 1 'll'(mder whcth• er. in view of the fact t11at we have one of tbe House Leaders here, we might uk hitn to report to the committee-~• tn what tbe nature ofth~t meeting was.

(TrDdur.liQf'l)

Lc.s membru des partis d'opposition veuleJII tout sit~plc:· ment que le s~mlteu.r Auiltin, Qui k defend d '(.tre de bon~ foi et de ne point vouloir jouCf de mauvais toor.s iei, fasse. pe-uvc d'une bonnc foi tgaJe pout renon.ccr A cent- {m!Jil)i litC de~·tto en l"abu:,noe ckt membnu dl.l par1i au pou''Qir puisque de !:lies QOOditions n'e.xisteraietlt pas pour ptot~ger d o:. la mCme (&-;<)n l-et me1n.btes des partb de l'opposJtion. Nou~ voulons toul simpkment qu'il y uil &{uitC. Nous voulon~t tout .s.implemcnt We trait« suivant les mt.mes ~ondi tionr que Id mcmbr« du parti au pouvolr.

Tlte Jo.int Cll•inn• n (M.r. Joy•J): Thank you Mr. lkatty. Senator Austi:n.

Le siaateur Aasli•: A lcouter M. Beauy. je ne peux que eonst.ater que les deux argumena de iOII raisonnemcnl s<>nt eontradktoi~. 11 eonlme-not par dire qu'unc .sC.,nce du comitC: ne peut avoir l.icu Ans lil prCsenoe d'un dCput~ du par1i au pouWlir et e'esl jus-te. Mai.s ce sont les rtsoluLiom lldopt6c$et il In Clulmbrc e-t au St!nnt. qui exigcnl un quorum de 12 .• i.l I ')' a pas 11 membres de !'opposition. Cc quorunt nnus ett d(ICIC Impel$~· par ftOill mattres, la Chatnbre des eommunes et le SCnnt. Quant au deu.x i~me argument de-SUn raiSQnnc:mc:nl, j'y rtpon­droi simpJement en .soulipant que m.a ptoposilloo se voula it absofunKnt et scrupuleusetnt tlt juste A l'tgard des ~rti.s d'op· po:~iti<m .. Nc.mobstant klut ce que M. Beatty ;~ dit, il n'a rictl dit qui pui.sse nous rassurcr dai\S le cas ol) J'oppc»iti<M'I, pat ln.advertanec:-. paraJ)'Serait Id travaux du comitl:. Ce.lu dit. je S41ii eonvnincu que l'opJ)(Ithion n'n nullement l'intentiOII de boycotter nos .sCanecs. JX!'If utiliser I'CJ~:pre$$ion que M. fkatty a lul·1n!me utmsk

Je me fcl'$i un plaisir de retirer ma proposilion et je st rait tavi que M. Beatty en fuse aula.nt pour que nout pui$1!ons ecmsncrer nOCte tempt it de:5 queslkm$ plus importanles. Mfune si je oonviens que nou.s devrion.s pou.n uivrc cc 6oouter cc que le ministte a d ilire, je. tie1u A slgll$ltt q-ue la mOikm d011t le CQflli tC est sai.si et l une motion de: JM'CXl:dure prCseotte par M. Btatty.

M. Beatty: Moosieur k prtsideat. je dc:mande que la motloo soit mise su.x vol..: et que le. vote solt enre.g,ifnri.

n e J6int ChiiJmun (Mr. J0)'111}: T~ bOI)()U.rable member$ o( the Committee -are rc.dy for the question. Those in ft\'OOJ of the rnotion as put by Mt. Beatty? Que tous ttuJC qui sont en faveur de. la motion pr!se:nt~e par M. Bcatt)' lhent Ill mui:).

i\t. BHH)': Je vcux que le vote soit enre&i51rC. Le coprWi«~t (M . Joy•l): O'ac:cord. Le greiT~<:r r«a

l'appe.J.

La motion es-t rejetCe: oui. 8: non, 14. M. &tatty: Monsicut le prCsident, M. Baker le. lt3dtr de.

l'oppor~~itioo oft.eieiJc il b Chambrt , ~·ient de f;a ire ~ cntrCe. M. Epp avait iOOiqut qu'il devait y al'Oir une riunion des lclldeN des p:utill A la Chantbre. pour d i3cultr d~ I~ queslion du quorum. P\Jisqu'uo des kaders il la Chambrc est parmi nous-. nou.t pnuni<M'It lul demander d'iDdiquer au romite ee. qui t'es-1 pa.s&C i la rCI.lnion.

2: 12 Constitution Q( C.:.n~da 1· 11· 1980

[Tt>xlj T•e Jl•int Cllairmun (Mr. JO)'II.I): With ihe permission ol

the melllbets of this oommiutt I will rccogn.i1t Mr. Baker, but J 01 m bound by the rule$ tbal we h~ve already ~c:c:eptcd previously.

Seaator Lsmm~t•g•t: I propose t hat he spea.k now an btbalf <)( lllltbe-HOtlst Leaders..

1 llc Jol11 Chatrm111t (Mr. Joyal): f'iflt I •'Quid like to iC:I the u:se.nt of the members or t his oommiuoe to hear Mr. Baker, artd d1en we could qUestion him.

Senior Lamonll&Jit: llu\·e ~sked a 'l uestion. Mr. Madl.ll.U)'! Before I agree I •UJid like IQ knQw what i:~

the p1upo5e of h~rill$ Mr. Baker, and I J.ay tbat openly. I may ha\·e n1i$sed the introd uction by Mr. Beany. \Yiut it Mr. Bnkcr gQing 10 tell ut l.lbout'!

Mr. [ftp: Mr. Chairman. the point of the tnatter Is th3t at t he mo1nc.u1 ~·e have:. defeated t he mlltioo put by Mr. Be.~tty. Scnntor Au.stin l'l:u nQt mQ\·c:d bis motion. at this point . •.

Sen•lor Allithtl l ;tm prepared to move it, Mr. t~pp: .lutt a minute, plea&c: do oot interrupt. Let me

fi nish. Lt eopr-fsident (M. Joyal): Monsieur Epp, vous ave2 I~ ........ Mr. Eppe He hiL$ DOl put his motion. The situation that we

are st right now is that our reference to S'trikc:-the committee-i:~ liS it w:u ~utd by the: Hou.se u.nd the Senate:, and that is tbe parpose.

Mr. Maekase1: I t hink, Mr. Chairman • ..-·e hllve m~ rnthc:r prematu.rdy to this point. h wa:~ Mt. Scatty who called fot the vote. Tbc: request for the vote did oot come tronl t he SO\'C:rnment t3nks. it ea~ from Mr. Be;:tty, wh.ich wa:~ quite k>sk:al J:ince his motion w1u defeated.

I have no objection to beating Mr. Baker, but I would hope thlll there is oot a presumption if lte>~rif\8 Mr. Oak.c:r we thcn reQoJ~<n the :~itulldon. We: ha.,.c taken t he ''Otc, we cannot go oo forC'Io~r.

lA wprlsMJtnl (M. JO)'al): Merei., m ontic-ur M;,ck.a:~c:)'. Sen;ll<ur l:1montasne. vol's a.,.c~ une question i ~~ Cgal.c:· m«<t i M. Baker?

Stnalor Lamootaaoe:: I ..->Quid like to kno(.)W ir Mr. Baker is represc:nt:ing here thi, morni.nj: all the House Leaders.

Mr. M<Gratll: Mr. Chairman, on a (XHnt o( onler. I under· .nand that Mr. Baker ha..s n<1•· bc:w pluc:c:d on the membership or tbc: oommiuee, ;uM! t hat probably soh-es the pt'Obkm. He can speak in his own right as a member of the commiuoe.

Tt.e Joint Ch1irnt11D (Mr. JO),.J): Cot.~ld you ans~r. Mr. Baker. to the questions th3t ..-~re pulto YQU?

Mr. 811tt.r (Nt-pHn..('arkto•): If I may. tba.nJ: you very much. Lr I may just speak. I tun sure. tltst y0u may oontider it out of otder for me to oomrnent with respect to t he mot ion put by Mr. Bc:auy, whi<:b I undenuand is now dc.fcated. but I think I sbould infocm tbe commiuee Mw, u a member of che oonunittce ~nd aiSlCt as llne of the:-Hwsc: ll..caders or one of tllc parties. choH disc~WoSed tbe draft rcso.lucjon it1 the name o( the

[ Tramlationj U eoprhilltnt (M. Juy11l): Avcc: In pc:rrni»M.>n dc5 membre$

du C(lmit~, je suit pt!t i Jui cM« la pGto!e., mais jc dots m'en tcnir aux rtales pr-Ct:Cdemmcnt Ct:1bllcs..

Le M• ateur l .amoatagne: Je propose qu'il a it la purole au. nom de c ous1c:51c:~dcrs :\ la Chtunbrc:.

Le eopriside11t (1\t. JCly• l): Avunt qu't>n l'interr()gc., ji: do.i!l avoir fa petntission dC$ membres du oomitC.

8ea11teur LtmonUJI•e: J 'ai po$i-un~ quwion. M. MackiMr: Av;mt de donner n)()n Cl)n$cntcment, ji: YOu•

d rais savoir pourquoi il raut entendre M. Baker. Je pose la q uestion ouvc:-r1emenl. J e 11'ai peut·O:tre p:u tMeo COlnpris l'in· troduction de M. Bc:auy, mai:s je me demand c: oc que: M. Bilker a Unl ;l nOut d ire.

M. F_.flp: 11 Cllnvtc:nt de soulig1tc:r que:. nous avons tcjeit la motion c.k M. lkittty. le- Jen.11ten.r Aulltin n';1 flld en<X'lre pl'tscntt la sicnnc . . •

Sf11a1eur Austin: Je suis prtt i le fai1e. M. Eppt Ne m'intcrrompet pas, s'il \'OUS plate. Je n'ai pas

f'ini. Tt.c: Joint Ch1jm:a11 (Mr. J oyal): You have tbc: Ooor, Mr.

Epp . M. £pp: 11 n'a pGS C1loore pttSic:ntCsa motion. Noue ordre de

rc:Jl\'Oi )X)Ur l'im t.11nt c~t td qu'i1 ;1 C.tG :·ldl)pti: J')llr b Chllmbre et le ~nat. C'C3t la taison pour 1-aquclle il raut ente.nd rc M . &Jeer.

M . Macbsey: Nous 3ommc:$ 211& trop vitc:. mo.Wc:ur le pthldcnt. C'C't M . Beatty qui a demandt le vote. Ce ne &Ont pa.t fell d Cpuli:t minlst&ielt (jui l'ont demand~ .• tnals M. Bc:atty. cc qui Ctait Joajquc: pui5que :~a motjon a Ctt rc:jec6c.

Jc: n'ui aucune objectk>n a entet1d re M. B:at.c.r, mi'lls j'~ri: que ce.la ne rcmet pas en q uestion le: \'Ote. 11 y a dCji eu \'Qie. 11 raut i:tl flnlt.

TIM Joint C~1itm1n (Mr. Joyal): Thank )'00, Mt. Mac.ka· sey. N~·. you l1~ve a question (()( Mr. &kc:r. Mt. Lamontaanc? ~11at~W' Lai'DOIIt•&~~e: J c: vood rais savoil si M. Baker rcprt·

$ente icl cc: nul! in tous I~ !ddc:rs ~ 111 Chambre. 1\t, 1\teCrstll: J'invoque le RC8,1cment, monsieur le pr~f.

dent. Je crois savoir q ue M. &kct a maintenant ~e nomme mc:mbrc: de ec comiiC. 11 n'y 2 done p:u de prob!hni:. 11 JleUt prend re la pa.role en tant que mc:mbre du comitC cn bonne et due forme.

Le eopsisident (M. Joflll): Vw$ voule~ rCpondrc nu• q ues­tions qui voos ont CtC pos~c:s. mans:iwr Bakct1

M . B•kcr (Ncpnn•C.rlelon): Al-eC: votre-pt:rmis~don, cc:rlai· .w:mcnc. 11 $C pcut q ue vo•n juaic:z mc:s OO&c:rvations irrtcc:v2· blcs oonccrnam 111 motion de M. Beauy, l :~qudlc. si jc com· prend~ bic:n, vie.nt d 'Ctrc: rcjc:tCe, m.1i!l je ticns ;i Y()U$ dire, en ta.nt que mcmbte du oomitC et en tant que leader it la Cbambrc: pour l'un des pdlrtb qui Ot'lt discuti:. d u projet de r&ol·ution au nom du mini3trc: de la J~ice. que ceilc: motil.>n ri.pondail aux

7-11·1910

ITt . .UI)

MlniACCf of Ju~icc.. that tbc 1001ion whiC:b thif commiucc llu j~ dd'eatod il i.n aC'.CIOt'dince with tbc diJCWsliollii that .. -.t hdd amon_a li011Je Lndeu u to bow the oommltt"' would function in the prdiminar)' neg<~~~ituion s.1asu. I think you t:hould know that.

• 100S

Quite rn.nkly '!11-e have al ... o:tys qpcrated amon&: I·IOtJu Le.td· en io 11 ruAOn~bk way. If there i1 IOfll& w»y that tbc. commhtcc could tCQOI'Isidct wbt il ha$ doM, &Jnrt the utld«· ttaMina a~~KM~g House: L.c:a-dcr$, I want to M)' to you t.bt I miat t .. ~ would au.pr wdl for t.hc busl.n.. ncM 0At1 with ,...,cct 10 dtis CO!hmiutt bat cbcwkrc. ht I dliat tk commiute should k*""' that tr.ue wen. cfiKvJ.does about qiiOnl.._ tbef.e -we d~ abotilt the t'Cprc!M:Ill!tiont of botlil l fouta, tbett ~ dito:>11q01ns ••I the ~ membtn tdng ~tcd •ith rQf)Cid lo q!MW\I.rn beeatttc u tbe rCIIOiithOn • ·11 before '" tbtte set!Md 10 "" tom~hilll lad:lf\1 with rupcct to it.

The rcuon I am bere is that I ••aa caUtd •• I undcntood tbe commlll r:c wu about to do. whK:b il is their tiJhl 10 do lr they • ·ant to, fiC)lm:t hing th<'t wu contrary 10 1111 IIJ'Id(f~l.nnding 1unona t·lou.JC Leaders to the e~ttC'Jit, I td l you, 11+1111 bated on thltt undentanding the is.<~ue at Houe Lcadu•' mccdnga with rcapcct to amc:ndmenlll of t.hat draft rctOiudort \lltf~ no! con· aickrod '"Y run.bcr because thc:tt was u •ndmuuMiina. I al••~ thoqlt t, tuu.il ttlis momma. thoat tbe relatioMIIip bt· t•ccn lM pcntmcat a.nd the opposition ,.itlil rC\19«t ID thO IMUCI' CIPCI'Itccl 01t ~~ aftdctuafld•ll&S- Tlaat • why I 14~t1cd out the ny I c!id. lllat i/ t.t.cTc: • some .-.y , .. , tile conullitt« caa ~ •ts pxitioll, with rcspcoet ID it u • HouM 1..cackt ol CMC ol tlte putic$. I 111C*W appfdatc rt Mt Jenm of lho lmpon:anee olthe uedc:nunc!ina thal•l*ltd uiM.

Now I ~~~C&k for m)'Sclf •1t.h ret-.lJCCI to my undernuditlg, and 11 tbe very leaJt, I lhink thal there should be no further action, I rcapcctrully submit to n\y rc11ow member• of tbe committee, unlil this 1n.utt:r ha1 been c:lcorod up to the commhttt Cltn collsi.Ju what it migbt have done irt •sncw11nc,:e or on uMic:ratanding wbicb '~''U raeht:d arnon1 House l.cftdcn; oporatlna on &ood railh, '* •·e u.slilaiJy do. I rra,kly do not wantthatiO(Id r11ith dc:moycd. but i f there U one w•y or doin.1 h, yoo h.avc choldl tbc riJ;bt methud.

lA «~Jtfsick•t (M. Jey•l): J'al u.nc. lllk'IIUe line d'ontcun: M. Corbirl, M. ~bdaKy. le Knatc•r Auhft.. M lrwie « M. Npa,__MOIUKVt N~ itrroq11t k Rqk:...o•t·

M. N'J"'itroc Je...,...,.. JXI'tf' •• ql*tNct a M . &.br $i jt k pnu ... maift~.tU:~~~L

Mt. Me('k.awr: I net to tatk &o tbesamc f'Oi••·

Lt tG,rbkle•t (M. J O)'al): Alou., wmmc. tout le1 onteun ~lent intcne:nir et po~r des questkwlt ou connn.enter 1'1nter· Yc:.ntlort de M. B~ker, s:i monsieur N,S'trotn n•y 'o"'it pu d'in· con\·~n itnt , jc lul donner:d lil ,p;Lrolc ap~ I~ lnlctvcntlont de Ctul Qt.le je YitM d'6num6rcr. Je &lilt «.1U1In Cl!le tO"J I~ oratcurs qui voui pr6c~decnt YOnt CQmmc:nter la pf'090lltion de M. Baker.

(TI"Ddwtfiolw) pou:rparkrt qu• avaknt c. la Cftlre b k:edm 1 la Ch111bre sur lil fa900 doot le oomitf. roftt'tioft.ntrait au sude prCiim~~~airc de La nfcodat!Clfl. 11 faul bitn le. d ire.

lcillcaders i l• Chnmbrc 11c iOflt toujourll e-nt.el\d~J;J ck f.lwn raUonDaWe. Si le wmit' pouvait m>ilir cc qu'iJ a fait, C*lpte ttnu ck l'tnte:rue i laquclk en soot ar~ ks k:ackrt 1 I:~~ Cb;amb~ cda JCrlll de bott I.UlU!C. tiOII seufc:mcnl pc~~~r k OCIOIIitC IBlia po~~r d'uttn. Le a~~~tit.C c!anit a:pc:Ddut a•oir qt~ "iJ y a ta eta d~ u 111;ct dw ~ au IIIIJd • .. rcpCserttat..- cb ck•• Oaarnbtu et de te rqftsUI\ati. de I"~ plf'CC que: la r&ohtion doa.t 111011$ $OIIlmtl aim l!'tb.it pas a.::r. pr6caie j ",._,_.

La raison poliiF laque.!lc je i'ul• ici, c'est que ce que le comh~ 11 l'inlentitJ+n de fairc, et 011 q11'il 1. le droit de (alre t'lllc I'CUI, semblait Ctre oontruhc A une entcnae concfuc entre k.'i lwdc:n de la Cbambre. Jc peu.t vooa d ire Qu'aux reuniom d<:5 leaders de la Cbambrt, on n'a pn$lhldi~ d'ameOOemetlt! et-pr<IJ(t de ~lution parcc qu'il y IIYah d~ja lll'le- entente. J~JSqull cc matin, j'ai toujoun pcu4 (lue I~ rapporu ent~ le ,OO'WCrne· ~t et I'Gp90NIJCJfl i C"e Jujd 6taient IUicfes par Cltlk e1Utftt .. C"cst porurq1101 fa• commc:nd ,., din Cl'Je tJ k cowntC. ~ut re'JOir sa p;»itioll. JC- l'aprriderau beaueoup itu1 moi-.tmc bdtt lla Oa.nbn.

Jc park lcl e:n mon nom pc:~nnel, e1 je ttouYe que vo11~ M devri~ Pill prendre d'auutt me.-ures 1aflt que ct:ue quarlion 11'au.ra pas ttt «-Jui rcie. Let leaden 1 la Chambre en t taicnt v-enlU A 11.11e t ntel'ltC de bonnc (oi, commc ib le foot d'hablt11de, Jc: n~ l'OUdrai5 Ill" que c:euc Mf1tlre mine la bolmc fui. mai5 5'11 )' a one r1t90n de le r1tlr~ vo.u11 !lv~:t, eer1ainemcnt c:boai la ......

T1w J•l .. Ct..Jr ... • (Mr. J OJ'III): I luvc a lon1 IMI of SiJOlct;i, Mr. Corb.A. Mr. Mackuq, Sc:na10r Aldlie. Mr. lrwiD. Mr. ~JWom, Mt Nymcwn. oa a poi.ftl of Clrda-.

Mr. N~ I wouW hke 10 put a ques"tio. to Mr. ~bt. lf I may. ~L MM~UI'J': Jc vo~rah prendre la parole l cc sljcl

Cp1emmt. Tht J olel ClaaJraun (Mr. Jo,·al): M all tbe spea.ken want

lo h;avc the flwr and Mk queatioJIJ or comment Mr. Bal ct't intcr~-oentioo, if il i& 11.11 right witll )'Ou, ,\h. N)'lltrom, I will give you the floor anu lh~e I hll\'t mentk.>ncd ba\'t hAd the possibilil ' to intcsvc:ne. I Olll certain tbat 111i 1ht spcmkcrlj who will ooote b(rore yoo ... m canunen• oo Mr. Baker·• proposal.

~~ ~,·~·~------------------------~C=oun~··=·~·--~-~~~==~----------------------~'~··~·~·1~9~~

I 'l'•xt) M. N~troM: TrCs b!Ln.

Lt t"OP"~14nc (M. J•raJ): MOil'Jiat M•ctucy.

Mr. i\laeh Jt': Mr CtiJltm.a.n, I wa:c qujte imptU."4rd by the

contnbution by Mr. Baker. I, buwevcr, have t(l m.de the point

~hl l ,.~advance 10 !hoc vote not in hatte OOt a1 the t~o~g.gcstion

« the rcq•~ ol the IMVff cl tbe moli<M. So I thi11k fl s.hou.ld

be YCf'Y ebr. beauc 1011 UJdcd up. Mr. &hr. wilJI tlw

inrcrtDCC llboUt good will tnd tbc rc:tl of 11. 1l'C 101.«1 quilc with

propriety, rcac.tina to a request by t he mqvcr or t hi• moti(ltl

that •v: p rootcd ••itb a Y04c. Certainly there &hol.lld not be any

hnptieation, CW:ft &. }OUt rc:Ma.rb., 1ha1 tome.,... •e may be

ilrainin8 the tood . ,n of l:he commiucc. At ... nutter of r.a. ptthaps, you tlaYe done thl1 b)' J'O'If ln(crc.noc al'ld I hope: you

re~.Ctil) t~at In 11 rew momenlj.

Obnc>Wy, Mr. CJuirmaG. attd I am approachina this thins

(n:n • di."ttc-nt pOiat of new. what - bolhrttod - si.IIC!e ye~tcrday iil Utat it K~C"mt this ClOmmiute hat beet~ bogcd

d()'ltt'n or.. a procedural ~Iter th:!t b bejlt referred t9 the

ltocrina commiltc:c.. I think Mr. lbkc.1 bu brou&t'lt a valid

polftt tbat tMre iJ a.n iluc,.dationshlp bttwoen W~hll happens

heR ud the ~ t~t &0 on. I• tile Coramonl ud tile

Senate tle-twccn tbe HoiUC' Leaden. But •urdy tMt c:ommw.ni­

tiuion i$ \)(Jt rdlcelod In the steerlna oom•njut'O, I w-ould

.-u11£dl. as ha• already bc:t:nw,8Be:uod today. that prooc:dural

mauen be almQA ;u:tomadc:aUy tcferr«< to the ~terilt,c oom­

m.u~ a.od tile rc::prucncation tha1 Mr. & t u ~. made thould be re¥1ewtd irt tbe s.tcering committee. and t•at we

dllpot~C oJ( h from this t01nmittce and not reopen it tlcre .. even

on t he pcn.utllions of Mr. Baker. but un the: othrt h11nd. ltgtce

tiNt his rcprueflt.atiM6 be made at tlk t"1111t carllal moment.

pcrllaps b .tcr today i• tlllt ~ OMIIIIittce. I would a .te

thl&t mot ion.

• 1010

~ dopf'kilt.•t (M. J O)·a.l): Alor$. WOIU faitc:~ ecttc Pft'PO'i· t1011, monsmtr MacbKY" M~t tc tlnatcar Allltllfl.

Stnst.clf Auli tim I ctl<rlt ur with Mr. Muckaaey'11 tu&ge:stion

and I .,•ou.ld 1lmpJy like to note what I believe, In a pcliiO!Ull

~«~tt.. is an iMlO!Ws:teac:y thl t d f1lthc:1 armoyin:a. Ya.tercUy

the acrus:atioM ot tllot orr.a.J ~- .-ere 10 tk effm:

chat the aovc:rnment members of thiJ commiuee wue bdna

controlled by the gO\·crnmtnt in term• of the T V luue, Today

~arc utJ in& on us that 'IP.'C: be cootroUcd by the pt:Himent

on the q~JtSLion ol our proccdores. h KCrtU to me thll you are

ubt~t f ot il liloC.li ,...,._ Notwitbsulldiq tMt. ud ,.,. .,11

c.rcu:~e me if I (c:el s.ligluly pf'O't'Wcd, Mr. Baker, I do COftW.t

with M r. Maekucy's emlncntaly &c:ntlble-suggc:uion llut the

ttee.ring ~mmlttee. on whic.h the O!Molal Oppodclon is repre·

~tcd, take •P thb i:uue.

lA e~fllri':sWt•t (M. JorsJ): Merd, lnOftSieur k a&au.r

Au1tin. Montlcur Nystrorn.

Mr. NJ'l-fro•: Mr. Bilker, on hl1 rccollcctlant or whnt

happened at the fluvse. Wdera m«ein&J. • ·bee he ••• taltin.s abc"'c c.he ulldcDtudU., tUt so.rwonc:: from tlrle Clf!pOSidoe

pifl)' be: tiKrr. Is it his undc:rs:tandlna tllat it .-u &OIIW:OftC

from the:- Omdnl Oppoiillon, Of were tht Hou~c L.caders

fTTOIISialfc>n) Mr. N,.erom: All rl~Cht,

n.r Jelee Oalrlaa• (Mr. Jo,..r): \ h . ~'-d:•I'Cy.

M. 1\lukl...t:J! Mom..teur le prhidcnt. la ClOriHtbtllion de M.

Baker m'a fort imptCMtonni:. Toutc(of.t. j.e ~J>':Ie 'l\11:- th.lut

dnrioot !»Iller a11 vote 1'100 pes 1\ la bile. mall Jlili'QC q 11e le

motbtnairt. l'a detnanM. Voot avu finl par parkr de bonne

'I"'k:m.C,. cte. .-oosicar Bal er et je t'OUdrais prid6er que .OW

a'IOftS a,) e.n toute proprlftf. i lil dc:mande du dfpotC qvi a

propoK (IUO ROll$ piWIOnlllll VOte. Jl ne rau.drait JX'I qu•ota 'j

volt une tiiC:tlque vi:silnt A minCI' 111 bonne voloo16o.u oomitC. S..• (ait. C'eit plut6t WIUI qui l'avet fait en fAisant de ttb SOta­

Cfttcllda n fapin:; qwe wws &c r*ra: *• q~ua tiii$U.n.U.

Jc me: place maiatMant d'~:~n point de vue dlfrfrc:nc pOUr dire

q..e cc'~"' me pri:ocal,pe dcpri$ !Iter. ~·at q•'il ~emble qv.c te eomit! K IOit C:llfisC daM c3es q.mtiofas de prodd•rc. q•'11

vaudrAit miw.t liaillser A l;r, diser~lon du c:omlt6 dtm:tctu . M.

Oaker a aoulc~~ uo polnc valabk on d isant q u'll y a,..it un

rapport t!ICre ee qui se ~m lci et let dJ~~euWon• qui ont Jieu

ealle la lada$ taat j 11 (.'hambrc: des COIIW11f!CI IQ.\i'UI

SlttaL Cq~e.nt. ce r;c:rue de c:ommuiea.tioll at bcalM'OUp

pfUI c(fi.:aoc en oomit6 dirc«e:u.r. Je pUlpo!leraia_ Qlfnn'A d'IU•

trc:s l'onc d6jA fa it. quo t~1te quellkJ.n de proc:tdure sole

autc:ltbatiq\itMt:IU rmvoy« u eomJt6-dir~tcur. Ain.si, le

a;mJtl d:iftc1"' dt'lftil w pelll('ba' W-t l'iAtC~n"U~Itoa de M

&tcr, a k ClOOl~C dnrait ea dl!lfO'Cr et oc pU ,.,..rlr fa

question, mat,r6lc:a ;r.r&utnenu: d e M. Bakct. On devrait pf•tOt

t:on~n.l r que wn interYCntiM solt soukv~ dant le• plus btc:ft

dtlais. pe\lt ~IDe auj.ollrd'b11i mCmt. dcvant le oonllc6-dirccteur.

Je ftn.i ecctc ..OOC..

Tk J eiM o.rr.u (Mr. J • )..e): So you mate llu.t prop!)>

al Mr. Mad~y! &aa1or Awti•.

Le sf.rtatc•r Ausd•: Jo '"& d'aocord avoe la 111J18Ution de.

M. Mae-kucy et j"airncrtb Jin1plemc.nt t~Ouligncr oe qui •ne

Jembk une tMJmalic assez cnnuyeUJC. Hicr. l'oppoti tion c.Jn. ddk ac:c.uk k:f depna IDiftD:t&idl mcmbnt d.u comi" d'ttrc contr6Us par k p~ tll tt qu.l a trait :l k

tllb:Hfrution de- dCtxns. A¥joo1d'hu.l, vo•a n<JUJ dcrna.ndct de

nous laiucr ltnposc:t 004rc proc«<urc JXU le gouvc.rt~ement . 11

me M:mble que YOUS ck1Nnde1: dc:u11 c.boses eonlrsdlctolttt,

Nlumoillll, CC ¥OU$ m'UCWCte& Jl j'ai cv rNJtpnuioa d 'aYOII

fcf provoq..t, MOMie•r &br. jKCCpte b NQ.ObO!t; m.o. IUiblo de M, Maet:uey vouhant que le ~itt dhc:cleur. oil

l'oppot;itiol'l orficidlc ett rc:prC~nt~o. se penehc .-ur c;cue

ClU.f:Stiofl.

1'1leo JcMat ~. (Mr. J• r •l) Tb.a.11k yo. Sc:Mtor

A Ut~t.in. Mr. N ystrom.

M. NrlltrGM: D'aprh le sou"enlr qu·• M. Oalt:cr de <:c-qui

•'est prod11h au r61.niont 6u lcadu• de. la CbambN:, lorsqu'il

a dit aWiir a;Jmpris que qltdqu\la de l'oppos:itbl y .ud~c,

•'a;&issait·il d'aprb hli dt q-=~qo· .. de I"OJJP*Iioe oiTICic:lk.

7·1 1-1980 Constitution d u C.nada l : IS

[Tw<) 111lin,g about somCOI!IC the:rc~ from both ol the opposition putics! U~(M. J.,wi):M<lftdn.r &ibt Mr. Bdtr (~pu...a.tkco.): My~- ia it •'SS QCII

precilllt z:t to whe-t het •'Cl -~~ dkciJJ5tnJ it with respect to bQlb oppoJition particf or ju~l one 09J10Sitiofl J»tl)'. But tbc issue was raised and lt wu raiied al)(f ocmcludcd on the b!llii:s that I here-woutd be no dlfno111ty witb wbal would be norm~l with rcspeclto thi~ kind or commincc. 11 wu ralkd In such a way tllat lhere wu noc • Ydl an Brfument or a quadot1 by HOUk .........

1\"ow I QIIC to .. 1. ill .uy, witk Mr. Mad:.ucy'$ poif!t, a.S du.t is the q .. l ... t.hlt I micJn haw ka imp.li"C the lfiCitiwes of the committee in 10me ··~y. I am ftOL But I am here to tell Mr. MKl:ucy, throu.&h )'Oil. Mr. Chairmu. and otber members or t he committee. tbat dtotre wu .ome u.ndcr­t tandint1 reached In the nor~nal' way amona the pcutie$:, und thll-1 pcrhapt tbc co•nnthtee, aetina in la.norMce of those underJtaiM!ina•. noc ordera-, not c:dktll, IM!t undcntaDdi.n8s. may have acted in a way that Is ill breach of thOM: undertta.od· I._ That is DOt Khlll;l ill bad faitlt, ud I did not think I ecc-=d )~'!:*' ud I ... , 10 natc. $W't tlllat h ..urc.

M r. MaebHr: J»Jt the last ..ard 011 11. What )'011 did MQCSl is lhat tomdlow we wue ~illln& the llmatpbt:re aftd tbeJOOd w1ll that is necdtd uQund thi• oommiuoo, ..

M r. Baker (Nf11t .. •Cartffoll}: No . Mr. Matkan y: , • , and that L"QI,lld be tukcn at tin inrerenoe

ola tbreat that I do not appreciate. Mr. Bd;,... (Nt'pn•·C.rktn ): Well, .-c • ·ill eh«t tbe

btves.. Mr. M.tcluty M r. AbtbJtr. ftM.

Mr. Blltft" (Nr,ra..C..rtc:to.): 9vt I had thought qt~ite dtart)' that I waJ deatlna with it in ltm.u ol' tbc atll'l<lfi:pbere of sood 111ill that uu&hl tO txllll in the Hon.Ml or Co1nmom, tuwl I prctumt n i5t i.n the other pliu;c. with respect eo the COOd~ct q( busill(!sa in that plucc.

Mr. Matbsc-y: Mr. Chairman, I propose. j~nl In the 3pfrit of &ood will bul I would a-uagest lkat we votr now and gel it ewer witk. OCioe: ••1• tM odwt. lA ~*,.. (M. J.,·aJ):: ~J" Bller. ,e 1'0Udraif

"0111 f1irc pt.r1 da dtta~ttionl que .0.1 a"'O'D eua av .. t YOt.re arrh·Cc.. Comme \'OUt aw:r. pu le C005lllCJ, IIOt.ll avot~s dlji rc:jett une motioo pr6cnt6CI par notre ooll~ltt.. M. 8elltt)'. P.tr CDII$Cqr;u~nt. pour pc~~.~volr rCouvrir lu dbcuuJon 11u ~ mlmc: point, il fiwdrail tvklenun~nl que nollJ Jllln.lont J'lflr IJ~ procC• dure du rappel du voce que nou:s a¥01'1' d6.)' cnregisuC. Ctpcndut. la motiOft telle que prilcnt6e p11 M. Madtasey IIOIIJ permettnic. u nt¥Cill du $0US·comh! de l'onkc d11 jolar « de la proc:fd•n. ck 'I'OU r&atenclr~ prob1 bkmcat, COifti'Dt k:!dct de ropp:aiU. et pe~~t-etre d.ierit« k ~ du sou~ """emmt et d'a\'Otf" IJM disca:s.:sion piu~ 111-formdk saJ" cc PGi11t de 10r1c que IIOIIi p()ll/f"OC)Jtl fe\'cnir ~·ct~tudlt-men t dcvtnt k Comit6 pour faitc sanc:tionn« ce praj.:c de oonsensui qui po~o~rrait intcm:nlt au nivcau du 3C>U.$-<Omi!6 de l'ordtc du Jour e.t de 1~ prot6duro.

(1inductlhll) ou let laden de Ll Clwnbre. pGdait ·d plutOt de q~M:Iqu'tll de cku• partil de l'of)Pl'itO.'!

Tk JM QaJ,... (Mt . JO)·tJl=: Mr. BUer. \1. Babr (Ncopa.a-Ca.fttiM): Si jt me 10U¥ims blea., e» a•a

paa JWkilll ii noous difltuttoo& 6ei deu.a: pG.rti$ d"opfXI'illon c.. 1c:ulemcnt d'un pa.n.i. M11is In QUC$t;.,.n 11 biea Ct6 iOUievCe d oo a c:onc.lu que ecJn ne fl<l,:crail aucuDC difficuhC C.llwt dJnM q~o~•il a-'atlt d'une p<x:i:dure Mltnulo d:t.ns le-e.ti d'un 001t1h6 de ce J!tllte.. 11 n•y a mtrue pa• eu d'op~ilioo ou de qut:«tlof'tl de '"' f»rl da kaders de: 1011 Clumbre

J •aiftwrais mainteMnl puAef a.i l'Oid me le pcriiMtta j r l6tctYCtllt-.,. ck M . Maeta.y. 11 a l&iAi CMt8dre quc- fai 1mp-t' ccnairts m.oclfi •• comlt6. 11 ~t'co c:st rkn. Toutd'oA, je 001• dire I M. ,_,bcbny, per ~re e:rttremi&e IJM)IIItellr le pr&ldcnl, Cl IIUX autre:& ftiC.ftlbi'CJ diJ oomiti:. Q...C: de1 ti"'IC'IIICI qnl l t6 eoncl11e:t d e r;,~on nQrmak entre ks purti3, 11 1e pc.u t que le C'(lmiiC uil <1&i 1\ l'en001111e de cer entente• en 1~11e lg'*unce. Cc n'c:st Jllli a.a.lr de mnuYJ~be foi et jc: ne troll pa.1 YVUl en a¥olr aoc~. JC van: que cc 110i1 bite datr.

M. MaH:•wr: Un derakr mot U-dcuu$. VOUi a~a We. JaiJtC cntdldre que no.s n .. Wona- i l'at~ t1 i la bonM '"Obll~ n6ocualres aux dCJlb6ratlon• du oomi.tC • . ,

M. 8 11.1i.tr (Nepeu .(:• r'lc:ty.n): Non. l\t, Mlletauy: •.• il pc-111 •'•tlr lA d'uM me:n.aoe que ,le ne

pu.IJ acccplcr. M. Ba.h r (Nfpea.-Carltlo.): Nou& "ftrifltl'Ods k ((llllpte

rmdtJ... CWIOM.CUt M .Kl&KJ

M. M ad :.wr. Rwt biea.. M . Ra.hr (~•...C.rlflOII): Je etO)'I.is bira al'Oir fait

aJlUJiOfl i I• boane vobut qui doit cxitla i la C11ambrt du ~nmunu, et qui exis-te protlublement i r autre c:t~droll. lor• de la oonduiiC de Jdl I r;u•;~ux .

M. 1\h t .k.II.My: Eh bic:n, mon.-lcu.r k pr&ldent, du .. cc mfmc: QJ>ri,, je propo&e que IIIOI.d ptoefdiom m~i•tmnt n .-otc pout r• di.-poiStt, d'lllc: (Ao90ft ou d"uM astre.

T1M- J.t•l C:...i,..._• (Mr • .1.,..1): Mr. Baktt,l wouW lite IG lafonn )'011 c. diiQ!nionf we ha.-e hid br(orc )'OUJ" amval. Al you hl\>e noticed, 'A't have aJrt:ady defeated tbe motion ,-~ »Cd by~~ ~olleasue Mr. Ocltty. Therefore, to reopen tbc di.SOIInlon on the stune 11\lllltl, 111-e would obvioUJly I• •~ to rcc:11ll the \'()lt alrc,;1dy la ken lluwevcr, the motion •ubmlucd by M r. M ackatle)' would coable the •ubc<lmmiw:e on aaendll ud procedure 10 he~u )'011 apln as leader ol the oppotldol\ ud ,..,-be to invite tile Lader oltM Govc:riU'Mfttto MW' Ill Wcn.t cli:lamioo oe lH po1M. We eo~~ld lkal comc btct before tk committer to t ... ll'l ptCJW"a theoM«i'd•' tlwlt couW tw:nuunr come <Mi t of tilil: ~i"'l·

2 : J6 Cott .. llta1ioft or Call.:ad::•:_ _ _ , ___ __ -----"''.:.' :..'·..:.19:.::;80

(T&"Xt) AIOrt, "i YQUS ld~t d'•~d. nOUJ pwrriom d~mnndcr J'a•ns

dts n\(.rubres de oc Cornil~ sur la PfOIXISition tcllc que for· mul& p.u M. Matktuy quJ, si JC l'•t bten ~ptlt, vue A

mwo~t •• .sou-comhf de I"Otdte d• p.r d de b pr«Cdun:

ks q•octom ck prot'fdurt qui .,o.mK~:~t ittttft'dlir o. q.11i pourrtH:nt demcurcr Wtla table" Mllli.n d(lot, c:n ptrlklllicr,

1!'1 quettion de la rcptticntation de l'oppm;ition pour et qui a.t

du q~o~orum du C«nh~. Je di.s bien de I' opposition: jc ne Jl'rrle

pu unlq~o~vnent de l'oppos;ition ofrK!iclk puisque M. N~nrom

a -.k¥C &a mbfte qw.a:110n. lOin J fltnlre.. Dooe. il t'llll de la

rcprOc•tatioo de l'oppoot.il:ioa cbM la COIIIpC!Siti!M d• quorum

de noocrc Comil~.

• tO 15

Mr. lf"'tl•: I wrll rno~·e w~b • mot.o.. lA ~1 (M. J• r-1): J'•.,.k 4fjl rc:c:orftiW q• M .

~bctucy an.it propoM tu.e telk mot!OII. Qu:c:b tonl "'" qW $0nt en fll'IC'Ut de fa PfOIJ'O'iC•on? e...~ qu'il y a des objc:cn~>n\1

:\ la Pr<ISI05itjon de M. Mack:t.seyT A ION, dois·je eomprcndre. et coaolurc que la pi"'f))Sition est aceeptCc et Qlle cet ~tpel.'t du

debat c:tl cl05 pct~u l'ifll&aniT

La IIIOC.ioo est adoptk

Lf co,...e,Mk•c (M. Jo,.•l): Morwcur M.acbxy.

Mr. M~tcbscr. Mr. Joyal, I think thnt Mr. Bentt)' made a

vety pc.Ninent obw:rvntlan eal11er, thlt h i~ time we 101 dO"vo'n 10 witnc:ne~. I would like to rnnl:e a •notion that lhe oommitcee

iavitc 'k Miini$&« of Jlllticc: ud A norM)' Getleral of Callada

h!s J\illt~Ot. to appc.r bcJo.-c 11tis com .. •tt« at 2 o'dotk thiS

afternOOn Ill \ii"' Of the (ad tJut WC WiU not be lftCietir.g

Monday or Tuc$dny,thu thc min.illcr be lnvittd 10 be hcrt: at

2 o'dock ai our fi ra-1 whntM.

J..,l' <'O~d~at (M. Jo,·aJ): Alort, commc: l'()UJ it ~avcz., il •'CM pu bc5oitt d'a'o'Oif qlldq•'un po11r a,.yn la mot.loA. Jc

(al:l .tOI!Wtll moi aiUII, Cdtc: c:rmtf Mcrd. montftr Epp. Jc

croU comprcndu: q~M tout le mondc, Kcept.c l;a propoJition

telle que form11ll:c par M, Mackaxy.

La motion es.1 adopl~c.

lA fOprq ide•C (M. J o)·al): &to« qu'1l y a d 'ntre• proposi·

,_,, MOtiic:ur Altm.alld? Je VWf H&Mie que M. Allcnand

~i a'ctl .,.s ~ ct1 t4fc « _,.re Comrti • ckml.-cle b.

p;aro&c. Est•« que let mcmbfq sont d'•c«lfd qvc nou• cntc.,. dion• M , Albm nd?

Du ~ob: Oui, d '11cx:ord.

1..t t'Opri !Jidc•t (M. Joy• l): M\liMteur AJlmand.

Mr. AM..-1: Mr. Chairmu. bdcn J'OII r~t~ite iifttO Mceriq commlll« to make r.k:s for the fiQrhl,f of ochcr • ltM:t$e$,. I

jvlft ._.,nt to make a sbott IUJ~tiO«<tO the commiucc. Yu.ttr·

day I ._,lla a bit OCNictrned by a ~mark that you mlldc, th:•t in

cb001ina witnes&ell to tppt.af before the commictte you wquld

llY altld noid npetltlon or .,.iew11. In tlllwet to that. Stutot Ttcmblt)' rai:secl 1hc poiat that pntup~: lhat slirloukl be modi·

(.ccf btc.lde JOU c:ou)id only UKSJ • ~S b) llcariq

repelllc:d vieW$. You aa~cd to tblll. Btilt I want to add ~ome·

thing furth~r eo th111,

( 'TrfiJU/(Ilion)

So. if you agree, woe coold 11:1\ the comm1ttet't CJPnion 01'1

Mr. Mnc;kn$ey'11 ptopoul .,,hich, lr I undet.stood 11, lnl t'nds 10

rd('r •11 pt'O('Cduflll 11\lltlers rni~d thts morrnn~ to t!Ml tubCMl·

mtU« oo ;r_&mda •nd pr«:cdut(', ptt1h1arly, thl qlleltion

c:ontth,liC t.bc ~tiort q/ lht quorvm. A.nd I ip'Oty llcrc.. the whole oppositi011, I :un .at apC"dn,c oniJ o1botat Utc Of'ficial op~ltion. 3i!W:e Mr. Nystrom r11ltcd the same qu~Mn eat· llcr. h thtre:fore (l(lflt..'eNIJI the munbcr of pcQple •cpte~~enting

the oppos-ition r<W lbc purpo!ie or the quonun in our

Cotnmhtte.

M. ln•i•: .le vcu• prCsc.ntcr \UlC mot.on a ceHc nn. 1lNo J oi•' ()dJr-.• (Mr. JOf•l~ I ba"'t alrady ~u:d

Mr. Mac:t.uey'a tniOhon to lhc u• cO'ect. Ho-,.."' a.tc ill favour o( tk mocioftl Arc there •n)' objections to Mr. Moldlt•

scy'• motion? tl<lCII thl&t t hcno.foremcun that the pnt(lt»lti«< ia n&recd to and thut t hit a.s.p«:l (l( tlu: deb;llt- li !)Vet rQr cbe

rnomc.nl1 \totfoll ayud (0.

TIM JDi•t 0.11111 ... ( l\lt. J o,-.1): Mr. Molc.bfcy.

M. 1\beb.se): MonJie11r Joyal, j'es-time que 11 rcmoatquc fahc l)lus t6t pnr M. Bcnny c.J-1 t r~ perlincnte, c'ett41·dire qu'tl cal temps d'entcOOre: k:s ttmoi1u. J'aimCJIIi~ dOIH: prop<l•

iW que k: comu~ in~ite k muuscrc de 141 Justiu et f'roou.rtut &bml du C..... I ClOOlpanitrc dc¥aot IIIIOifi COINI!Ic pm:niCT til'MIIn. j 14.00 u}olurd'hi" e •••• dollllt qiK '*" ne ltOIII$

r~nlrom ni luncfi ~tll'nardi.

·r.._ Joiltt Cllalrmu (Mr. Jor •l): You •nust koow now, thut

there 11 no .nocd to IY~-e • ~>ect~~~der ror tbc motion I often m~~tc thd Glistalrc .. ,..oetr •bo. 'f'khk )'011, Mr. £pp. 1 tbh.t

n>cryone asrus 1o the mo~kla as lnQ't"Cd by Mr Mlt'bic)'.

Molli>n carried 'l'l~t~ Joint C.,ab.-•~t•n (Mr. Joral): Arc thctc uny olber

moriOM! Mt. Allm.tndT I dnaw your •ttenti!Ot!IO the f•ct tbat Mr. Allma.!ld is lkll u ofTJCiallllC:~nkt ol out Comt.ltke. Do

the mcmben t.Mn I..Cfce 1o let him~~ tk lloot1

So" ' e h(Jn, 1\hlllbtTII: Agreed. 1'11~ Joia1 (.lualna1t11 (Mr. J (l)'tJ): Mr. Aflm•nd.

M. AU .. M: MMhtiiJ le pri:s!dMt. avant que ¥0111. M 'O'OiiiS

rcliUcl: pour ditc.ttt 1Ttt k COMiti cllf"CCUV da rftkmcnu il nd<J~Ker au s•JCI de l;a (lOinP"rutioft d' .. trd tlnt0i•. l~•mttai3

brltvcmtnt (airc llll<e ptOpollitiOI'I Ull QOmil i!. I-ller, j'M ~t~ qut:lque pcu pt~octu116 par une de Vel' rcmar<1uet., e·e~t-ii--Oi ri!

que kin du ehob da ttrnoin~> poov1nt wmp~traftre devant le

comltl. YOti ¥OM r.f'tdlttriez d'Mcer la. ripCutloos. En sui.sc

de tfpom.c :l ttPa, fie Xutc:ur Ttr.~nW..)' a f1i1 nklir qv'il

fo1ud11• peut~ ~rotcr i ccl.1 ou Ofl ne pwt lnlu.cr .t'il y • un OOnlii:M'" qu'en enttrt<la.nt la rlil)ttition de certaiM puiou

de vue. V.,us avel d'A ill~ur.l 6t6 d'acoord a''CC $(j llfOJlQL J'•imcnis toutc.fois ajouter CJIC9rC quclq11e chose.

~7·;:1_,_1 ·::1::910"'-------------_::Cooo~:::lit•tion d11 ea.~ .. l : 17

rr .. .xtel Si~ one of the prind pnl pu1po,.t~~ qf this ooon mitloc I,: 10

cons;ldcr 1be charter or ri&htl, o.nd the purpo_,e (}(a cbilrtct or rlthts i' to ptot«:C min<Jfillot In this a:l\miiy asainil the I~,.Sllatlve m~oricic:a th:at mlaht eppcar in Patli3~t.el\t or in lejulltura of pro.,inca. • bll you m~ C()ftJidaiaa il prol«t· 1.. tilo&e' ri!flts $0 they CaliDCM be ~11!1 by lqblal.IW~t flllljori•ia. Tkrefote. •!ut I wo-W lil:e to do in. dmdn• •pon .UMMC:ai il br YUY l'kubk ud lmo'OIIJ ..;1.11 r($f!Cd &o JIOIIJII from minorities in th• OOUftU)'. Alch as lli.U\'tt., the di101Wcd aiM!' bandicappecl •nil 10 on.. 11!1 other words, I 'fiVIIN t1111don you a~1nat. let '" Ul)'. hunns only one gr®p and rcelin~ you have heard tlte vie•·• or any or t he'* mim)tllf J.tOUpJ

I J)<t.KIIUIJI)' believe th•t (Of these groups to nalce uy impac( on )'OU it would be worthwhile w "'"r them. Let u •Y tllet I! tlle: Union or Brititlll Cotumbta lndiatlS wished to a~t l.n additiolll to lbt NatiOCI•I lnduA B.tothcrbood or a arwp (RJI'II the AtJulic p1 0\1 incca.. bcc•nte 1bcu woicu are otic:• drcMMd out b)' tlloug .. ol otlilcn wbo an ia a &fUkr ~ty i• lhis COIU!try 1hc1f' poinu may aot !'d lhf'OU,JII eo )'OU if )'Oll Insist on JV$:$ ODC group.

What I am u k,ins )'OU tu oonalder m tbe saeering commiuco I• a Jpiril of gene-rosity In hf,11rin.a tbe minorltJcs (I( thit country, ir one of your ptincip1l purpoit!t i$ the cntrenchmenl ol m.lnority right:t.

lA ~eat (~f. J ctJI I): Jc t'OUS rclllU'cic:. 1n0M1CW Allms..:l.

Si la IOCabcc:s du O~nntf me le pu~Mttcnt. jc: nis prid.a­dcu• poi.nu. Cc que fai djt hla au Rl}tt de la po~5ibllil6 d'6Ytter let rCpetitions. je ne l'tl cht qu'A 1itrt d'exmtpt.t. Je ne vC'Il• ab&olume:nt pill que ICJ. men1ble& de c:e ComitC c:roic:nt que e'rtl un des c::ilUct. Je n'11.l p.• de critCres 1 in11~r au• membfe' du aou..s-comlt6 de l'onlre du jour et de la J'ln)()(:dure.

La dwx~me: remarque, c:'eu que le niPJ)OM du toU&·wmit6 de l'ordre du jour et de Ill ~d•re doil lw:. ent&l~ ~t lrf membra de: et ComicC. Par co~U&juent, si l'uD ou rautre del lhCmbrn de ce Comitf 1 k k11tlmcnt qu< I< $00HOm.itt de l'otdrc d• ;o.r et dlt la proddure 1 oublif ou dnnh •JOUIU del. ttmoi-. il ll t011te llbmf: ck (tire des prvpolitiou Ccci I~ jr pcNe. aM latp rfplfttc j ~re iDt~ ck CC !M d • •

• 1020 V a·t·il d 'tlut res ill tetvention• ou pro~il ions sur I"Oilllniu·

lion de nOIS travaux? Other propoial$ or motjoM on the orsuni:tation or oor work? Mo~tdeur le &Cnattur Mu b. A qui fa lie plaisir de souhahtt 1_. bknvmve; com.me nou:Yuu mcmbrc dtt ComitC.

S.ntcw Muir: Tba.t )'Oil, \ fr C\linNUl. With your pet· llliuio!t. I .oeld take IOCOIIUnC.I Oft ~h. Altmud't llalc:ma\l I 1h1at he h absolt.rtd)' ('ICII1'CI For i..unoc. lhe 1Jaioft of N~·· Sootia htdia.n:s., ··bo do I'W)l ti'WA)'l ·~rtt ..... th lhCI

(TrttduNioo )

f:utnl donnC que l'une des rtlbom principa li:$ pour i e&q.~clle. on a mls sur pied cc c:omitt c:t l'itudtJ d 'une: cl!ane dell d,_u t:l pui•qu'un tcl docume-nt d iCNh.t A protC.u les minoritCs 114: c:e 1)1)'1 COI'Itte ks Majo..itCt Wai41111Ya du Parkmcnt f6cU11 I ou 6« 1U#mbliC'3 l~pl~h~odci pro!t'im:a,. CIC que vous u..tnlnel dclfK. c'at la prot«tkwli ck. eo droiu ar .. q~t'ib ne p~~~KIIt tare atlll'!ul&: par IQ majorita ~athou. Par COfld,•Cftl, J'•~" Cf'k ~ lbUcl. ptW~ de ltQ gra.odt touJ*- Cl de &C:rttroti'lt klnq•' d •'•air• de lbnoi1u JltOir'C:nanl des 1ro1.1• pe1 minorilaim de: notre 1)1)'5. Je 1011Ae au:~~ autocbtonet. au• lf!litmeJ ~ aux handkapbl, etc. AUitrcmeDt dit. je YOI.I~ mrtll en prdc contte le fah de ne fill re comparahre qu'un groupe p11 l ~ d'c"ilncr <jut Y(luS ltVe<t, d~' lonl, une bonnc id6e de 01 Qtle pcMc la minorite dont 11 e" lt~~~o~ .

J'e.nlme pour ma J!"r'l q ue pour voos lalsscr • ne imprc.ulon mnrqu;ant.; il Krlil tttll •tile de lei cntendre. PrtftOIU pc~r u.anple. le cas oU I'U•bt of Blhidt Colu.mbb lt1dnuu •nkltt cb lllditt!IS ck l:a CGiambto-Brh .. aiqt~c tOUbaite ~tire Cll pi!Jf de: la fqtemil<6 Mhoaalc cb l.ndic:as 011 ea .tiU" .,oape de$ powioca de rAda"uquc pt.n:::e qae br Y'Vir. a'ac IOU'~'~~ pe.s mttadYC j tri,'C'n «lie de la nujori\C daM lOCI~ p~)'t; eh bic:n, leur poiAI de vue M WIUS K"ra pall·tlte jama»o communique si ''005 inilitcr. pour ne fJ ire cotnparailre qu'•n groupe.

I.AJ$(jUe vous VOUll '~"nirct t n tl)mitt d irecteu r. je vooJ de:l'ftllnde done dt . ral te i>IC.II VC de a.tnerosit f. pour' t t qui Ul d'accorder 13 parole au~ minorlt& de notte payl puisquc run do prinQpa~Jll objectifs JOUNenda tits YO& dCiiberatiorv c11 111 contCaatiOfl dc:s dtolts da ml.norhC..

Tlw Jeiat Chirau• (Mr. JO)·aJ): Tll:aat you, Mr. Alt..ncl.

If 1hc. Commttt« mcmbcn al\ow Me. t..bcn are t•v thiap I WOI.IId like to qualify, WMt I uid yrs:tenhy aMt a~iftl ~~ re;pct.it ioo of ''iewa, • ·as CMtl)' II''Cn •• ao example. I w•nt to make it a~utdy d c.ar 10 t he members of tht Cammillre tl\1t 11 is 001 a criterion. I hue no a ilcria to impo~ on t11c n'c:n1bcrs of the S:ubcotnmhtt:e on Aacndll. u d Proccduu.· ...

My s«:ond <lonuneot is tbut the rei)Ort olthc Su~om.mittee~ on AJenda and Ptottdurc 1nUJI be t;ppf'O'ICCI by the mc"'berA of this Commincc. Tbcrclotc. if Oflc: member or a.notlxr o( thb C«nmiltcc have the ilnJ'If'CNion t b:tt dlt Suboommitt« CMt A,cnda alld Prooedtnc hu fotptm to bar cutaift • ltea.tet.. Ot thould add some oJ thvft 10 iu k•~ he i$ ~dy fro& lO ~nab Judl a propoMI. I thillt that lltit ~ in pcn.l tutm.. the questioe )'OI;t have r~"cd ct.k morr..inc .

Are there 01 ny olhtr propwnl• Of motions oo the QrJ911'1Illl • tiQn of our wOik?

Y !•t•11 d'autrtS intervcntlona: ou propos;itjons Sllt l'orj ;lnl•ll· tion de nos trava1u? Sc.natot Muir', ,..e biiYC tJte plcature: or "''(kom.itll you as a M:• Member of tM Committee.

LA M-utn r Mai r: Merd, monkur k p&~t. Avec .otrt: fJ«flliWoe.. Jaimtra.U OOIIIIftMfltcr I• clidaratioa <k M AIJ. nu..d. Je crou qu·• a at.oiiJrMIII railoll. lac Uaion ol f"'OVII Scotia Indians, pa1 cxcmpk. qut ~t•c:u pas t.Qt.I.JWB d'aa:ord

2 : Jl Com.UwtioD or Caaada 1· 11· 1980

( Tt:.rtj Na!lonal Indian Brocherflood ;1nd other Jroup!l, have nlnmdy taken rlcps to apptar bcrore the world oourt and abo WC$1·

miniiU; aDd I thin I: or aiJ places, they l.h()uld be allo-'Cd 10

appc:ar here.

Tht.ok you.

Le tGprbidttlt (M, Joyal): Mere!. moosieur '" 8btateu.r Mulr.

O'auuu propotilkln• oo ques.tiont l\'811.1 que nou~ ajourn· icllnl AOI travaut. pulllilvc JC eroi:s uvoir qu.t s"iJ "'Y • pat cfaut.ra fl.ljcu q-.e ._ IIICIIlbm d• Comiti voudnat blm voir traitn avaJU l'ajotmwment, je do.f d~t:m:t.or!« • ne motiol'l: d 'ajourncment.

M'oni!l tur Corbin?

1\t, CorWa: M0111leur le pr&Mknt, j'..,ais $0111-tV~ unc qucs•

t.iclft hi«. rdat~t l la dispositioft da ubics. ae .. •

U c:opr&i4elllt ( M. l.,.f): Oui, je YOU$ rcn:etdo ck MNS k

rtppc~lcr. A &a su&ttestlo• lb mcmbfu du ComitC, j'al prb de'

inrormo.don~ auprCs del services de la Chambre cks com­

munu, e1 ha lu~gcitkln q11i m';1 ~~~- raltc a-t <lCIIe de !'C1Q11Crir Ill.

tabk du Centre de~~ conf&c""", c.bk qui pourrait floCM.II ~tre

loarM ..,._., ftt..U po~r la chtr6e de 1110t ln\'lW.. Alors. te fa.i raa:o."d des membra de ce Com:lt6. knque liOIU .,.. rQaJD. tOIV I• scmaine produaJne, b Krtlcu de: 11 Chambre cles

eommund nous auront insl.alte d(& tablet et de:t raut~ullt plus

OOflfOttlbkf. o •aooord'f

Mondeur le &blateur AuniA.

S..tor A_,.ia: 0. • n.ncrof~ Mt. Chainnaa.is tbe Jtccri~tJ (l)(llmiltcc u the eaU or tile cooehairmaa'f Ya?

I..e eopr&oicltnt (M. Joyal): J 'nl con•uiiC ks rcp~cnlanl3

6c:J dlmrccns pardt et lk temblc.nl ftre d'acoord pout que le

$ou.Q)nloltt do proarammt a de la prodd:uie se rf:•n~ ee

midi. .U la pbioctc des qauato. i U Chambrc des

CXJmmuna. O't 1.1trca paints? Momieur le atnalcur Tremblay.

Lt H••twr Trtmhf•r: Ne pourl'lit·on pu dtptncer k

aroopc •• ' pour u rapprochet ••• 1

Lt <"Gff'hidret (M. J•yal): C'e$1111H questioo qui ut l.tlme

i 'f'OCn ,qemmt car 11 ttmbb.it piu r-.dk dt cllpbocr 1cs

meubla que <k: dq,laecr c:cu.t QYi la utilisent •• , O'avtm

qucJIIQnl, monsieur lrwin?

Mr. ln•in.: Yesterd• y we diK:ufl'ed whetbcr we w~:rc going to all MOftlby or "()!, • M pcrbaf41 we could .seuk thtt now.

Ekca!IM If -'C ate NL, tltm lhue ill JOiq to be .a.rt)ilq tor pbnc- liclcts.

TIW Jc.int Cfaalrm1n (Mr. Joyal): Mr. Epp.

Mr. g,~ Mr. Chalnnan, we h lilld 1lvcn an undert11klnt; a nd

we aOO had :~n llndcnQndiQ,J tb11 we .. w ld blk In the

stccrifll commiUCIC at 10 ttow ~'e could rc:p&.ot tboie liillin,p.

lA cop~l:tiftM (M. J•,..): Ccst ce qwe- j'a~'!lb compris

aptb let d-ltC:usaioM d' bic:r toir. O'atUia quaciolu1 S'tl n"y <:Ill

a pu.t. je dem:tnde,.i une mocion d"ajO\Itn«r~ent. Monskvr

La pie: m•? M. lAplt:rrc: Je propclle l'ajoumement

- - --- - -ITh:rNIIItio-rJ avc<; 111 Ftatctnite n11tl01'1ak de& l"dicnl et ki llUi tU groo~ a

d~il t»U des mesutu pour comf1RI'IItrc devant In Coor inter· ntdonak deju~tioc Cl i WC~~tmin.uer. Je u-Oii 'lUCI de lt1U$les

otltdi"Oit& pof:S~bJea.. die dC"rait JIOIIYOir eoo.lpareitrc.ld.

Mud. Tilt Joi•t Clual""u (M r. Jo,-.1): Tha11t yoo, ScNtor Muir,

Arc there ttny other pi'OpOSaht or question• bi:forc we adjou111. boc:ausc I bcliC\'C ir there arc no other .wbjcas ~ ltlch

mc"'bcn of tK Committtt ~kt bU to hai'C COMidc:red bclCit'l wt adjoum. I ~Jd rcq~MSt • motiOA to acfpu ...

Mr. Corbin'!

Mr. Cortli...: Mt . Clu.ltrnan., I u ktd tbe qucation ~aletday abcMu the kyout ol tile room. ete . .

n. Joiat O.iraa• (Mr. J.,..r~ Ya. tlual }'011 for mni.,. dina u . At tbe suuation of tl!e members oltl!e Committee. I

diacu¥kd the qu~tlon witll the Hw!IC ol Commot~1' Sernces Soctton, and their IIUJAC!Ition WM thiU we requ~t tl!l) Conrc~

rcnee Centre 11blc which ooukt be jlfovidcd to u.s 111 no OOit for

the d-uaoo. ol our •wk. So if I htve tbc •.areerncet or the

~s ol Lht Cotnmttttc • .tltn -e rncd •ot wed. lk Hoote of Com.JnON.' 5ct'rices Section will have ICC up more

comfort11 bte tables 1111d ('ba.irs ror ••· Agrc»d?

Stn.uOf Auslin. Lot lihattw A.Ct.: Mouieu:r k ~t, J'al111te qiK'Slk!n

•• r la procedl!ltc": Eat.ce que k a•u•f 4u'((:le.r • flf ~

pit le ~mt? Oui? Tt." Joint Chair••,. (Mr. Joyal): I I.'Qns:uhcd the tcpresen­

tlllvu or t he different pa.rties ... ~ they &eem to ngee tbt tbe

s•boontmiuee ot1 Aat.nda a.nd Prococ!IHC meet lbiJ afternoon~

after IIIC Hocse Conlmc;m-' QueniOII Pcrlod..

Oth~r points? Scl'llltor Trembby'!

St~ullor Tre•bl.aj': Coul-d • ·c not n~ t.he g,roup s<IMCW­

hat . •• 1 MO\'C clolcr • . . '! Tilt Jodf O.irMa• (Mr. J •fal): Tn.t is a qt.tt>tion which

is • • for COMidctation; it S«fMd c:a.sitr to MCM: r•taiturc

thu to m~ people .Woa it ••. A117 oth.n- q!Kttkwlf.. Mr. lrwln?

M. lr•l.n: Hicr, IWMIS I'<>U~ somnlCII dcmnnd6 s.i flOu• ulli<Wis

ttiEau oo fiOft lundl: nout pourrion• peut·C.H~ r41cr ccuc:: queihOII ~Mintasa•t. Parce que f.l nout lW Jifgco&~l ptJ. ttla va

ft,. la COIIaoc n:~ btfku d'avioft.

lA wpr&l4ut (M . Jo,-•1): M011JWur Epp.

!\t. Epp: Momi~:ur le prtsident, 1'10118 notu ~OIIliiM:t cnga&6:c.

e t il l t11 lt ~galcmenl c:ntendu qut: 18 rn900 de rcpluc:r « -5

s&nca KT~ it l tud!.6e pu le oomit! dir«aur.

'Jlt,., J .... ~(Mr. J•)-.f): 11Nt is wbat I ~ood

aftet kat arpr, d~ Any otkr q~HS~ioM? If M&. I will

invhca motion to•djuurn. Mr. Lapicne1

Mr. t...,pierre: J move tllat we adjourn,

7-11·1980 Conitltutioo du Canada 2: 19

(Trxul Lt ti)fr&Wa•t (M. Joyal): NCM!J ajoai'IIOO$ dOCIC 1101 tra·

n~U ;l 14 k•ra m apri:s,.-mid:l F1111 de la tba« duma_tin.

SEANCE DE L'APR[is·MIDI

• 1401 Le ce~prKI4~not (M. Joyal): A I'Ofd«! Eil·« que ftOUS ~ dtmalllkr au Jc:-;rul.-tcs cc au dimreeu t«llaid· as de btc..n ,.w, quitter b ulle afi• 4JDt ftiOIIl puJQioM a;mmc:nc:cr ftOidtlibCrationt de M aprh-mld.i . • .

A l'ordN:, .t'll YOu.i plait! Ai!W qu'JI avail ttC convenu lor• de nouc ajoutnernent

antCricur. lt'A mcmbm du S<iuKomftt du programme et de la prooEdtuc tc tOnt rtncontra t l'hc11rc du luncll t"t je ••h en mcsu:rc. de "*' c. rendte <Xdlptc. rt de .wl d~:mallllkr 'I'OCre U~a~timw. •• nppon ~

~odrtii'J q~~t~tionl 0111 Ctt abotdkt au court de ceuc rcfl· contre, d je me OOfltcntcn.i., A ee:ue ~tape-cl, dt oc ¥0UI parle:r q1.1e de Uoil alpeCIJ pertkulic.rt. Le p~mier, c.' es t ccJul <k no.. horairt$ de .t6.anoe~. Nw borairu dt dances pour l.a U1nai~ procbiiDC &ont mcrcrcdi aprk·mldl de ISh JO A l fl h 00, et cJ.c 20 h 00. 22 h 00 dU.ntJU la *Jirft. kt.~dr d~t 9 h J0 j 12 h,JO, de I S h30 l 1$ la 00, d de 20 la 00 j l:l • 00 en toitk. Et t'Cndrodi prodq.illdc 9 • JO i 11 h 00. Pardoel Je nil tnlpYltc.f

I am ton')', I have betn to3 fut ill cJvu!:& )'0111 the ldl>edule ()/ our tMetinp for neat •'Cet. I hive uid that WC'dntsd•y ,.,ill be. from J.)O p.m. until 6.00 p.m .. and from 8.()() p •n. until 10.00 p.1n. 1'hurtday will be from 9.30a.m. unliJ 12.10, In the aflemOQn fro•n J.30 p.m. until ~ 00 p.m., and i11 tbr e¥Cnina from 8.00 p.m. ••nil 10.00 p.m. Nut Friday, YlCndredi pro­duia. de 9 h )0 j IJ h 00. J..e IOIIHiOmfli .... propo1C qu 'IJ •Y ail puck •flltle Y'COdttdi aprb.midi. Ell et q•i CIOftCCfte la pounllite de l'auditioa des temoia&. le Comi&C est convtllu de laiseer lc:t membrcs dv Comh6 d~enniMr eua-memet: la pCtiodc: de temp' nkcssalre a cntendre le miniJ.1re de la Justice, Par coM6quen1, lt· comit6 pourra d~terminer R l'ojaur• Mment de ftl ttllvtul;t cet aptb·mld i • 16 h 00 t 'IJ dUire poa.nuiv~ l'ifllerroptoirt du miniiii"C ck la Ju.11kc mrrcredi apri:s.midJ. So mcm~s rmy decide 1t 011r adj01ra111C11t at 4.00 p.m. 1f it 16 tk c:ommittcc'f -.11 10 wntil111e lO ct.c.o and deb!.t.e .Otlt tM Miabtcr ()/ Jutkc r~«t Wedr~esday ~oftd'ftOOit at l.30o'dod\. Apr~' que nouJ aurons u:rmln~ avec Jt mlni~lre de la

Jus:tloc, le cvmitt 5ug&hc que nous enltndic:ms k prC.Sidcnt do la Commiuioon cnnadicnnt det droll' de la ~1'10nnt, M. Ootdon FaJrwdthct. Par !:a Mjte, k com.itf •uuUe iplemcef Q•c ce soh k COinii'IUUire ••• laAIMI off,Qdl,c:s d• CaMd.a, M. M.a~ Y alcko. cpi Mlit itMtC ! oomparattn. . Poor la Mrhc ckt: tltnoia,nap. le oomili ri:scrvt k:t f"'OIIO'i•

11011$ pour UM tCunion ufLI:ncurc du IIOUS·eomil~ du pro­&rAmme et d.: 11 proelldurc.

En ce qui ooooerne la di$tributi0f'l du tc=mp$, le oomit~ en ell arri!'i fad kmcnt A un~ eotc.ntt! qui rq:wodu.it la proctdure ltahituellemc:ttt tulv~ in the ~her ttll~i.n! c:ommiucu oltht

----·---(Tradurtl~lfj

TIN Jol•t Cllai,...n (M r. Jeyal): We •ill """' ad .Jour• Ullli.l 2 p... dttt • ftcriiOI::Ml.

£ad ol the llnOffli"': sc:s.Uon.

AF"rEM.NOON SITTING

Tlw J.inl O alr•u (Mr. Joyll): Order. pkaw.. W.W the joumaldu 11111 nnous ted;•ieu• piu• lhiad lan fl& 1ht f'OOfl:2 to that we.,..,. bcti• l~d aftn-ftiOOtt"' prn.c:cc.dill!&:• , •.

Order, please. AJ .,.., , aJrc((J when we adJiMitncd htil tim~:. the n•cntbcrt Cif

the Subcommittee on Agenda ond Proocdure met at lunch I am now able to rc:pou to yo.ud to uck- your appt0¥111 for tfte ~m..ck

Maft)' qu~llon5 Wctt. dcah whh duruta the M«ll~ 10, ro. lbe moment, I will only dJseuu three of tbc: poinl-l wb.ch •·ere rai3cd. Tbc fint eonctrns o11r moccing itheduk5. 1'he timcllt· bJe aarced upon for next '~~'c.Ck iMiuclc' Wednesday from l .:lO p..m. to 6 p.m and from 8 p.m. until 10 p.m.~ 1'hunduy (tom 9.30 11 m. uJH!I 12JO o'dock, from J 10 p..m. unli.l6 p.m. •nd from 8 p.a.. \tiUiJ 10 p.m.; alld Friday f"M~ 9.10 a.A'I ••li 11 a..m. I bra )'OIIr patdoe! Am I aoi"J 10 qu_ictly'!

Je m'Cl.C!U"- ,e vJii5 trop v1te. J•aJ d•t Ql)e l"hor•Jrc ~ s&_I)C(:t de Ill ~emai11c. proeMinll wmprcndra dcti r~u11I01U mf:rcl'lldi de IS hJO A 18 bOO r:t de 20ll00i 22 h OO. jcudl de 9h JO j 12 hJO, de: IS h 3011 18 hOOt:! dt 20b 00 A llhOO. Next Frldll)', from 9:30 to 11:00 a.m. Tbe tubc:ommlttce poopotathat the:re be: oo ma:lina o• Fridsy :t,ltcmOOtl Al far U itc:atiq of W1111CUCS i5 CG~~CCriiCd, tbc cunntitltt il • .,.. to aJiotr. t1lrc IIIC:Mbcn ol the c:oa"llllliucc 10 determu.e tbe tiJnc, nccc:Haf)' to hear the ~hnbtu ol Juttitt-. So. mcmbtn may decide ~o~pan adjl;rumme~~t or today'i pf"'C()C(itn&" nt 4:00 o'<:l<tek • ·bet her they •'ish to C'Ontlnuc qucstioninA the M inl5tel (In Wcdnctidlly afternoon. Var oona~quent, le com116 1)(1urr11 dCtermjncr 6 I'Jijourncmcnt de Id lrnaux, Clet 81)f~ll ·ntidi ia 16 h 00, s'd d~ire poursuivre l'lt~tcttoaatoitc; du minl)lre dt la J ll$tice mcrcttdi apris·m:ida.

Af'tet •'C h11ve finished with the Minister of .l u~<tlce, the ,t.ul.x:omminec h:t.S s-uggested '''"t we bc:ar the Chief Commi•· sioner or the Canadian Humon Ri.ahb Commtukln. Mr. ('.onion fajr• eall!.cr. Tbeo, the committee h:u po~d that tile 0.•~ o/Otr'lCU.J LAIII~ Mr. Mu Yalck, be iaoritcd to appar

The •t.~bcoft,m•tt« has I'CM'rvod '" lkcitio.n 011 tlle order ir~ ll.'htcls • hncslin are to appear fot OM of 115 further mcctint'·

As far IU tlnu~ anoamenl is oonc:ernal, the committee £,'IOn a.gretd tlut t he normal proce<hnc: .,..~, to be follo111cd. La pf'OI:ICdure habiludk des au1re.• C«nit« pamucnu de La

2 : lO COIUl.ltvtJOO et Ca.uda -------------------===~~~-----

7-11-1910

(T.,.rtJ tlowc. whK-h prvndcs th3t the- liru f'ifcor~t IN•utu •re .-itb the Of'rtc:.ial ()pp(lsition of the House or Commont. and of tht Senate, or ('OIHk: tbt next fiftee-n mlnuta witb tbe New l>cmocr.o~tlc Pllrty: and tbe ne:u iiOccn nllnutfll with the U beral Purty or Canada. Th~t is for th~ n"' turn. f<K tht: HCand turn. it U pr.;~Vi(!ed 1h.11 ten mmut(ll bel u.llott(d (or each porty, tnkltl8 inlo account 3 fair balance between the Kli U In the H ouse ol Commo~ (In the. (lppO$\tinn ilde. which mco.ru the111 .... m be ~;oMeooti~ turns from tbc oppofillon side to tbe ~·crnmc.nt tldt'.. w-hkh is essentially the urnc proocdurc tlat i• f()lkw.ed i.n tbe otbu uandina commiu~ Of iJllf'<'i.al joint commtUtd olllle HC*se a11d tht: Sctluc

So 1f •l d aa.t«ablc to t.bC' mmtkn to •~P' wt:h a prelimt.aar)' rq!Oft. I would lmJte a MM~bcf ~ propooK iU ....,._1011, M. lAF'CfTC at •ppu-yi ,_, M 81')U Mad.awy.

LA ~pport d• :tOUS-CIOD'Iiti du Pf'OI'*.II'Iflllf et de .. proddlltt­at adosnf..

lA c•prOWt•t (M .• Jof*l): Alon, ti tdk ~ la volontC du comit6. J'in•itcr11is mainte-n:lnt k oop~Jdc:l!lt. l'boOOfable JttliaiC:ur I h.ys. j po1nniYrc le dCb<ll,

11141 .lt»nt Ch11ir•n (Senator H11y1); TlllAnk )'Oil 'ftry nuwb. Mr. Co·C I12ir•nan.

lion. •nembert a.nd hon. senator., in ooruldcNtil>n ~lf tJ1e documcm wtilltd A P~ Resotut!M ror a Joint AddrcM tO Her Majc:J;ty the Ouec¥~ ret>pcC1ina tbc Conttuulion of Cal\ld&, "''C have appearins ai our lirst • ·itnctW the UOfl. Jean Chrfden. Mntiutr of Jus.tiee a.nd Attllnlc:y GCJ~ert.l of Cuad.a. I irMic the Ho.. Mi•is:ler tq m•kc a •tltemc:ltt. if any. « tO be prepared to aas•-cr quc:uioM.

fiM. J~ .. ~ilitll (Miais•~r ol J_.W. ... An.,._, CntnJ olc.....la): TbAt you. ftfY mlldt,. Mr. Chair.,.•

Mcmbcl"' u( the: oommltt«. th~t ..ark wtltdl tl!ua commiUee hU bc:cn IUl:ed IO Und<:rtal:e by the Senate nftd the fiOtiltc o(

CommcMtl lt fuAdatntncally important to C.nadn, ancl I um pleated to be hut 10 Aitiit the comm1ttee 111 the commc:noce· 111~1U of chit histwk: t.uk. The pro~cd raolutlon for a joint addr.:ll~ hat rour main elements. ( do "ot w~tnt to ~l>cllt the apcc:ch I mude In t he House: I do think 110111<: or r<M• •·ere thete to hUt'rt to 1t and 50mc Qthctl m~o~t~t have rc11d &omc Pllft of lt. But I can aay that this joint address c:allt ror (our main eJtmC'OIS rni't, the: patrladon 6f' the: COIIIIttuiiOI'I b)' tran~fet· ri11,a to Canad• all rC"mainina •vtbority olthe Un11fd Kin;gdom p~;tl•rnefll •ith ra;pca to lhc Caaadia11 corudeutiM: J«<n6. ty. •n aMVMIIJII rormuta. f« cba.IIJiq the OOIUlltulioo in Ca...U. lhlrdly, a c:furta ol ria,hls; .ud fmdomt pro~cru., tJrr;wc fK!edcmt. ckmoc:ratic npu.. IIIObitfcy rf.ehrs. q.,J ria,1u:• ud b.ft&'l"l« ti&hU. ild.tl.n:g cduaticul la_,u.a,e r1Pll; ll$CI rourthly. tile pnm'tple ol c:qu.ahutiOft and the rtducnon of rc&IO«<:tl ditpariey.

C"ott unc. .xc-.uiol'l trb impotU.nte, p!Hct (lut depul• 1 92~. II'IOnt iC\Ir le pl~~idcnt, llOU$ lravatiUOIIS i lenlcl de ~oudrt: OC probl~nl~. C'cat d ce momcnt· l:l. qu':lla Conr~rc:tloe impCti.ole. 11 ilvllh ~l~ dCi:ldC que 11:: C:!nl!.dn dcvuit devenh C<MI1fll(tcmctu iftd6pcndut du Roy.tume--U.ni Et l'annte proehainc. en 1981, oela fcra ~0 aftt que le: St.ttut de:. Wrstmm.uc:r a ft~ puR. cc ~·~1 A OC:tte C.pCIQYC _qu'on avaic dCc:t.Oe de tcmC1trc A piU$&&rd.

IT""""".,.. I Cbmbrt: ptbooit que la prcmCrts q11i1UC lni•IIC$ toic1H acccwdecs i l'oppotlhOn offlcle-lloc de 1<1 Cho.mbrc da commu• nes., et du ~ut, blc:ll c:nt(.ndu • .iul•le d'un: me:mbre du Noo­vcau part1 dr:mtlo:uuaq~ ec, cn'11he, d'nn rcprbo::nt2nt du pcuti libi:ral du Cun110.., cl~o~~cul'l ~nda111 un quart d'heurc. Voil~

poor le p1'0::tnier tour. All d~ullibm:. il en COII\'ttlu que dil minutes soient nocon14cl ~ ChJI(IUC porti, tout en tcn11nt Wmi)!O du nqmbre d.'e si~sn ae.cu1>U) p;.~r lcs llleltlbre:s de l'oppositioo i la Chambrc dell oonunune.~ Ainli, Ut fl"r<.lle 5C, aoeMd6c: alteJnllti\•ttnc:nt j l'oppo~illon et 1111 gouveroc:mc:nt. i Rtvoir suivaat I• pf'QOOdure ck11 comilb pcrmancnu ou dc:s comit& spEeiaua mUctcs. de la C'bmbrc: et du Sblal.

Si le Com.ite ('f{ cl'aeoon:l pour actepC.er ce rappon prtl1mi­Mire. JC' Sllb plt l rc.<'lcWOir .to motao.s eo ce $C.M. Mr. Lapic::rre bs bem ~ ttr Mr 8r)a: ~bctasq •

Tlle Rcpon of the .t.ubcorlwrlittee 011apoda aMI proc:cdu:r~t il carried.

l'lw Jel•t Clulr•~a• (Mr. Jo}al): So. iJ tht is the Q)lnmtt· tee's dc::Jirc, I woold now ttt.k tM: c~bairm:u1. the: Hol'l. Scnatot Uay.s.. tq continue the: prl.lteedinp.

I~ ropr~ddtnl (dn111:ur 1111'11): Mcrd beauooup. mons-ieur le ooprtlidt:nt.

Honorables me•nbtcll, h<~lflorabks sCnatc:urs, en ''UC Oc: oo-•n· mcDC:c:r no06I d~ll~radoo• sur le projet de: r&olution portant adrcsse oomm~o~ne i Sa Mtje•tt la R.eine CQI)CCriiJin.t la Co.n~tl• tutic>n du Canadt, IWIUS •cc:ueltlon• l'hooorabk Jc.n Chri:tiel'l, mi11iisre de b JuihOe e-t Procure'" ainCral da Canada comme ptUnicr te.ooi•. J"t•Yite J"hoollorabk miAidtc i faire une: dkla· talion. .SJI ) a ticu, d j l'fpoadN alli.l ~

L......,..... Jn• Cltrf1ktl (..r.kcn tkla JtrSri«' c1 ~

'"" ~ •• c .. alla): Mua br:aiiiCOI:p. ~~ k ~DC.

Membres du COO'!ilt. le l,.nil qu'catrepreed:r2 fe Comit~ l b de:ma....se du SCnlt et 6t l.a Chambre des commu"CI at d'une impmunoe (ondlmcfttak ~r le C:utada. Jc suis bcu· reull d'~&ickr- le Comlt6 I oornmenter ;'i :.o::otnpUt la tdc.he bbtorique qui lui 11 Ctt conmc, Le projet de rC$0lutio"' pt>rtant nd.rt:iU commune ()f)n'lportc qn;~trc H~mc11lS pr1ncipauJ., Ne voula.nt fl"li ri:pite r le d1tOCMM~> que j'ai fait en Cbambrc lonquc ocrt11ins d'enlre 'l'<lt.lt f:t:1ie11t sans doutc pre!lt:ntt, je hem toutt(ois A soullper kl qu:ure pointi pri.ncipe.ux oomprls diiM oettc J~dres!Oe. Prtm~remenl, k UJ»Iriemc:.nt ck la Coru· ti:tutioo en traMIUaflt alol Canada toule au:toritC. que ditbt le 1".1:rlerncnt du Ro,.ume Un1 ~t la Conuitwtiorl du Catwb; dauibMmnll. lllle ~un de ltkldifntiott de 1a eo.titiJtioll du c.n.•: uoiUhncmcaa, I& (:Jqnc a.!Udit•..e dd droiu n libettb •ilanc I protfau lcs libert& fondlmcl!lla· k$.. ks d""'IS dii'IIII.IUIIIkallft. la • tw:rtf de C:uwJ:slioa et d"f:ta· blissarlena. lcs pnntl(!lj...tldlqua c:t lcs droiu bnzu:iuiqua. r compris lcs droiu j l'itl!truetlod et, q•atritmemc:nc. k pnncipe de plirCquution et 111 ri:ductlol'l des itl~,gaJit& lig.ion.aJes.

This: is o very import.JI!II 0\:~•ion, Mr. Chnirmim, becnuu we h:we been trying to 11olve t hi~ question since 1916 whc.n it was d~ided ut the lml)(!rifl l Conrcrence tlat Cnnadfl wu 10 become completely inder-e..ctent from the United Kin&dO•n. Next yc:u, in 198 1, it will 1\avc bcc:n 50 years since the Statute of Westmin.stcr wa.s r»I>Kd and Wnce it was decided to post·

CC~m<trtu:tloa dtt Cauda I : ll

(Tt..rfrl cfrecti~menl. la formule qui permelltllllltn C.n:ad~em de 3e

cfonnoer Unt CIOnlli l'ution 10!;11 j r .. n c.lftlldiCMtl fl qui dcv;ail eue amc.nd6e, auss.i. au Canada.

Alort, au cours de ceuc tr~ lonsu~ pblodc ck ICmJ». noU5 IWiflt eur•~ de mc:urc un ll:rme i c~ l)tOOI:M\11 d'autonomie d~f1niti~ du Canada "'is·i·vi~ de 111 Ortnde>olltc:taanc:. Et, ai.Qourd'hul. le Co•nit~ mb.te du S~nat et de lll Chan\brt des oommu.na est appeiC i rtgler ce rroblb-lc d'~o~ne f•90fl dHiniln'e

11 Clt t-.·ident qlole liOIU au.riollt tou1 aiml. commc: t.dlc &art I''UIIMOOII de toui ks ~thlti ea~ ck,_11 1911. 0111 mlmc aYUC ••• • dcplil 53 a-. ea 1911, qv<: ftCIIi aa1"11Ml 10111.1 aim6, clit-jt.. rfu:ssir «ttc dl:m:uchc cl•• u.M at~ d'1tan'100k absofu entre ks pn;MIK*' et le pvttiiCIIt«l(

fid&al M,alllalteuKmcnt, oous n'aYOM pas rfuu• et. au:jour· d'll•i. la Chambte des: oommu.nd tt le ~not 10111 appclob i dltuminct de fa~tor. d.Cfini l'i~ qllclk at tn 110lutlot1 :1 ec: probl~me. Le Com.itC qui si~se aujotlrd'tl\11 dcvr~~ rcndrc con1ptc pour le 9 d~cembce. A la Ctltllnbrc de• conununel, dC$ nmendemcntl qu'iJ propor;c i 1.- risoluth)n quu no•u .!:tudlo.u. de fa~on A la rcnd.re Jn pJut acocpt!lbJC I)O!Itibte i tOUI le$ •netnbtu de oe ComitC.

Q\lll'lt R moi, <»mmc minji"trc de la JuJ'k:c rupcm~nble d111 octte rillohnioe. fa.i f'i.nttntion de ~ous aide' lout j trou,-er vn accord q•i pou:rrait a:impli(MW k Pf'OI*JIU et now.: rtftdre 101.111

l bon port. Ma ha.ult fMctioftiUircJ et moi-mbnc auo~ a toutc circoftm~ l ~ clkposidon.. et " ecnaa memWa de ec ComttC '* c:uu.iDs panil de oc Comd db{,...M:ftt I'V'Oit da Wor-tioot paruc.libu ou dn ~11aira paftic:u. lten. mol·mi:nx d la mem.twa d1t tnt•lstltt de b Jatice krocll dupoctibb po1tr ~ fCfiCOfttrcr, Cll dchon de etue: plb, al cda en ftkessalrt.

Jo n'ai pu l'intmtion, aujourd'hui, ck ralrc unc bltuc d6ctaratioo por<lt que le temps tit llmilt k: cUblllt est deJil cn,a.ttl dcpui1 le printcmps; no•I.S en 11\'00- d.s<:ultS n•n.plcmwt IU couu de toot I'Ctf: met colltguu, mlnltH'C3 de~ la Justi<:t: et JI'OClUI'tUI"I &CnC:riiUX du C..nad11, tin~/ (JIICI JCI mfni.JttCS dei Arrlli rct intergOU\'Crnementakt dc:a IJC:!'n>crnemc:ntll pnwln· daua. avonr tout essaye dt uou~tt une IIOfudon. Le aouvc:rnc­mcnt can•dicn a'Cta.it e~tJPsC A • &ir rJpidc:mc.nt et. maintc· ntnt, le probltme &e trou~ deYant oc: Comh6.

Jc YOill aoub•itc booi!K dtaftOe danc w. df:ljh&'tiliom.. Je wotu olfrc ma ~ et cn.:a: de. .,. mi•i.-Uc ck: rapon i ¥OU tdiJttt. . . Nc.s somma prtu j C'OIWC5f:tu mu.iN ......... menta q•i p;Mmicnt Cue ••i• com ... IOid l'a.¥OM &oqjoun die, IIOIIS •~ dSayf: de pr~rt:r •ne taol•tto~t. u:n eba.rtc da drc.ts et u:ne ciCc&arDii<lll Jur !cl ptlcmc•u de: la p&fquatioa aiMi qu.c sar le pana,:e dtt rkhcun du mic:u.x poMiblc ,,, NQus rcoonn;td!IOM cc:~.nd:uu que duns toot tra· Yail 14islatir comme oclui·li. lcs textcs que n~• Pt'OJX'IC)nll ne Mini p11 n6cusalrcm~nt pa.rrt~i!s . N<lui a~s dtj~ reQOflnu, en l)ll rlr•nt l vec lc:s a.ouvcrnement~ prQVinciuull et mtlllie t.V« les d~~tf-1 , que ce-rtain.s tlmtndcmcnul paurralcnt ~Ire t~occptC.S par le i ""ll'erncmc.nt. Alon jc vou~ ortrc mu l>lu~ tl'ltihc OOIIIIbofation pour CllSi)'Cr de tr<IIJver une IIOiution il 110t1 pro­bl~ma~. Mondeur le pmide:nt, e'at ICMII c. que Je voula_is dire, doe la f•~ la plus oourte possible.. pour que kll dCpvt&

(TraducJiMJ

pone tbc formul~& "'hlch would allo• 1 oornpl~tcl} Car.Mii~n consdtudon and wMch thoukt be l:lmcndcd here ut Can.~~da

Orcr thnt l tlf•t rcrlod or time~ ""e ha~·e tritd to flm llle Canadt1's nut0111on1y in rciMion u.'l (irC;!It Bntuin. TOIJuy, the Joint Senate uud li ouMc ol Common.s CO"mmittee i11 called upoo totOive th~ rrobkm oooe 1uld fot aiL

Obnow.ty. at llu been the inte~~tioo of aJI Canad jUI ltfit ll· 1cnsi:ooc: 1911. « ew:• bd'OR.. t.mct 1927. 1W would albve fit cd 10 luve IIUdc lilb mcn'C w d tctaJ )qtJOOn)" fctcl'ltl&

bet~• the proft~~CU allll lhe federal JO"U'lii'KIII1. Urllln•· aatdy, ~ chd ace MIICOCCd "' ctola& t .. is aMI. tocby. the tlouk: ol Commons and thoc: Senate ,.~ been called •port to r.tld • dd'inltrYc wlullo" to tbc: problem. Tbc- Committ.cc mttlinc here today m•ll repon to t he House or Common' by ~cm· bc:r 9 with nny proi)Okd amendmc:nl$ neCC;S5al}' to mab the proposed rewlutkHI ncc~ptabJc to all members M the Committee ..

As Min.istu of Ju~t loe m.pons:iWc for t hi ~ r~l.ltKJn, I intcl)d 10 help )'0111 all read! an agreement which wo11ld liiml)li· f)' tbe J'Woon'l and brina "' 10 a OOOW:rtSIIS. My ~nior offdab aad mysdf •ill be at your dl,poul at eny liJIIIC aDd ir an)' mcaben cw au~JII ollk Cootmlttce .. -.w u~ sped:fk Wonu lion ot COIINMftt..._ we. at tht DcpartJnelll ol JnhcJI!; ,., ill be anibbk lb lllt'Ct ,.,il. )'OU Ollltide of OOIIIII'Utt~ lion., 1f

""""'Y·

As time it or the C!I!IC:nee, I do Mt intclld tO m.2le ll b!J $latcment uxby, The IS~&cmion ha5 been goin.a on a.incc the $-pri.ng now und we dalt with it ut 8reat 1tng1!h over the sumn1t:r. My colkaJUI.'I, the miniMCrj of J'uuice and All or ne)" General or C.n1tdli tt well at the minister$ or lntel'gO\'ttnmen· tal Affair~ in the l)fOVII'It:lli l govtr11ments la~ 1111 t1icd to ruch a .Wution, The C11Mdian £Qvc:.mmcnt had commht~d iudJ to lakina rapid action alld now lbe problem d. bdore the Coounittoe.

I •i~h )'OU t~ bc:tit of l•d: Ill )'Oif procecdillp I oiT« yw my ~ alld thoie ot my depuunmt f01 ••1 da.rir~talkllt )'10111 lll.lf need. We II'C tudy to CIOIMickr aiiiC*fltCIIU wbdt n.y be ucf•l M ,., .• t.i'I'C •J>qY!> ttated. M" l!a-.c- 1ried 10 dn:ft tilt boJ pmtibk raotvlloa C'On1aimng eh;. ne• of riJhb •nd a KCtiorl on c:qualllalion p~ymcou. u.cludiq: a "'rcrciMll tO rdO!Jrtt sharina llawevcr, wt rc:eog.nitt 111:!1 all 1:1 I he C.JC with 111\Y lc.vsi:Hivc. work of thil nn111re. t he teM we MYC d~aftcd is noc ncoc'-"'11rlly 11Awlc1.1. After spttllting with J'ln.lVifto cit&l goorermnctlta 111nd with mcmbctl of P'J.rl'""ment, we II.IIYC alrcad)' rccosnizcd 11111 wme amendmrnu would be 11~ccpt ·

31ble to tltc gavernme.nl. S.,. I Mrer you my full oo-aper:ulon In aft err on to iO(IIVUII) OUI pwblem", Mr. C h,i.rman, I hat ~ ~ 1111 I h:1ve 10 1011y for the moment 11~ I bop: 1ha1 m)' itatctnetlt • ·•• sbort enout)l 10 allow n~mben lo beain qucujonina me immc.dilldy. Wnh me today a1c fl'l)' ad~Jisct~<, Mr. Ro,rr

2 : 22 Constitution ofC:~nad:~ 7- 11 · 1980

(Tt'XII pui»en' commencer immediatcment i me poKr, lti.IC'$ q~o~u· t iOit$ R rnoi et a mes oonseillers qui $()(1t ~ ma droite, M. Roger T:t~e. U'!On suus-mini~trc, et il m•• g:wchc M. a. l,., Struycr qui est le sp5ciali$te en la matiC.re au mi11is:tCre de la Justice .

• 1420

Johu Claalrmao (Sua tor Ha.y•): Thank )'Ou Mr. Mlnltter.

Sens eor Tremblay. Le J~llt~ur Tr~mbl11y: Monsieur le president. mons.icur le

ministre, je me sens peut·ttr~ un peu mal :i l'aUe pour c:Qmmeneer le dialogue, p1.1hsqlle moiUieur le minis:lre n'o CvoquC que 1-es dCputC:s dans oe q-u 'il vient de dire-. J'al oompris cepetld:J..nt. qu ' implicittnlcnt !ell sCmtte.ur' et.ajcnt llll$fi 11dmis a engager le-dialogue.

M. Cllrftl t n: J'emploietai le mot .l~,g.islateuro :ll'nvenir. l..e , en,. teltr Tre.mbl• y: Lu iJaDCls oabliC.S. mai$ dont la

presence parfois se ra;l scntir monsieur le mlnistrt • .. Je- voudrais d'abord \'OU$ rcmer<:ier monsieur• le ministre,

d 'avoir :acoepte dun.s un si eoull dHai de venit de't"'!nt notrt C<)t'lli tt . et d'~nga.ger le dialogue puisque je p:Mc que c'cu ii unc $orte de-dl.a.!ogue-<juc l'OO$ noos avcz invitts lor11que vous noos 1w~z, dit <JI•c vous Cticz a notf't; dispositioo, ainsi que le pcrsooncl de votrc 1nlnlstl:re pour, c:Qmme VOII5 1'11\'ez. YQu.,s.. mime Cvoque, aru~lyser ••uui $Criwsemcnt que possible lc.s donnCes qui .sont fournic.s dans k pt'Ojet de r~oludon . C'~t

dll.ns ceu~ perspecti,·e·IA que je-me pl;~ cero1i, d111U 11n premier tem~ 3i \'Oil-S me le penncucz,, poor qu,e OOU$ nous etltendions sur <>e qtlc j'appellerai la lecture conecte du projtt de lis<lfu• lion . . . Aprh quod nolli pourrom peut..Cuc. t ce moment-la, enpgcr le diutogue pmprement dit .

Qu.a11t i moi, je voudrais me concentrer sur tes dive"es formules: d'amendeme.nts que wnticnt le projet de rbotutioo. Je n'q.bl.xrder11i dooc p.:IJ du questions rtlatives A. b ch.arge des droiu, Oll .4 la per6qu.ation. bien que lil-da$uf ccrt11ins com­mentalrer.s setaient 6-Yidemment IIJ$c:t imPQMantJ. Je voudrals simp)cmc:nt me oontenter d'une petite note. A. sa voir que. k:r SJ ans auxquels vous ''enez d~ raife al/u$ion, et Dieu ~it si l'on $'y refe:re friquemrnenl dcpuis un o:Main temJlll .. , ne toud )tnt sGremen1 p.u la ch11rte des droits ou l3 p~rCquatKm, puiolque, t;a ne fill~t sQrc~uent pu SJ 111\S qu'on e53nie de .s'entendre Jur dell $ujcts pareils.

Quoiqu 'il en $0it. me conc:entrant illr lt:s formul~ d'llmendc­menu, je \•Oudrsis que WMIS me disiez si je fai$ une lecture ~rccte de$ cbokl, t:n notllnt d'abord que pour 1ut~ ~node de deW( ans i.l y aura UllC p~ure tran~lwdrc, bl prQOCdure de J' unanirnitC ptth•ue .A !'article JJ, q11'il )'aura auss.i une proct· dure Cplcmcnt t~n~itoire mais elle deviendra petm:~nentc p:•r 1-a suite lonqu'il s'agit uniquerne:nt d'un c:crt.ain nombre de provinces: qui sont en et use-d;tR$ une modWcation co.utitution· nelle quc:k~>nqtte . Ourant la m&ne- ~ri<lde de trnnrit)(m on pr~voit q;ue Its ptOYinc.es pourr<mt in~rirc en regard de r une des formufd perm~nentc3, eelle qui C$• pt"tvuc A l'trtlde <1 1, pourront inscrire, dirje, une propositiOn. Si 8 prQ'·inocs.. si j'ai bonne rn~molrt. rcprCrtntant 80 p. 100 ck la population, root une telle proposition ahetnative , . . J t n'in~lste )nt li -de\ISILS

(Translationl Tas.sC. my Deputy Mini~ter, seated at my risJu ilnd Mr. 6. 1... Strayer. on 1ny Jc.ft who is the e:<pet1 in this nrea at the dqxJrtmcnt.

l.e a:1prdident (sbtateur Ha,-s): Merci. monsieur le minis.trc.

Le ii~nateur Trtmbl:l.y. Senator T!'fmblay: Mr. Ch.airman, Mr. Minjster, I reel

somewhat unoomrorubJe. begiunint tllit dialogue t.ince the Minister only incf~>dcd membCct$ of the House or Commons in hit tt:t tcment. However, I tnow t.bat Senators were impJitd in his rcm11rks.

Mr. (."hretiea: I "''ill use-tbe word "le-gitlll-toril" in future. Sen:attlf Tren•bla)': The forgouen ones, whose prcscnoe is

noncthele.<~f felt on occasion, Mt. Minitter. First of all, I ""''ould like to thank the Minister for halling

accepted 10 appell.r befo..e. the Committee in such $)\Oft rroticc. and r01 blll'ina initiated the dinlogue IQ whic.h you invited u$ to panlclpatt by stating tha l )'OU. as '<''CII as your Jtafr. '<''Cte at our di~~~~l 10 an2 1)'~e as serl<lusly :~s fl<IS.<lible the da!.a provi· ded in this prop.:~sed resolution. lt i:s in the oontext or such 11n excbange that • .if I may. I "-'OUid like. to clarify .some poinu in order to read the pr(}pOM:d reiCllution O(lrn:ttly. Then, we will be able to engage in the diai<J:SUC itself.

Personally. I would like to ooocentrate on tbe vari~s amen· ding form ulae-contained in the p10posed resolution. I will oot $pe.1k to quct~tion~ pert.aining 10 the-<:h;uter of Right$ or 10 equalization, ahbouj.h comments on those areas would be lmporuuu. HowC'\Iet, I '<''Ould t imply like to note tJ~at your refercnoe to lhc: .fact !hat "''C hlu-e been ""''Ori:in,s on thb question sin<>e 1927, and God knows, that has been mcntioocd many timd ~cently. dOC$ ncM concern the cl1a rtcr or Rights or cqua.lizution sinoc we. h;tvc ccrt;•inly not been attempting to agree on those que.stions for 53 years.

Whatever the c••se m11y be. to return to the amending formulae, if I ha~e understood correctly. tbere will be. a ta·o·)'Cilr interim :.mendinB period. w.•ith um1nim()tl$ agreement. ptOYidcd for in Scccjon 33, wbich •wld beQOme permanent iJ ag.r~ment is not reached and the provinces PfOI)O$t another proccdtlrc. Ouring that ~:1me interim period, the provinc:c$ may, under Seccion 41, ma.ke otller proposa.ls. When eight provined, if my n.Cn)()fy sen•es n.e OOJrt'Ctly, repr~enling 80 per QCOI of the p<.~-pu lntiQfl , ~llbmit tlltc:rnate p!Opo$111$ •• , I ilnl

not going to dwell on that qut$tjon for the 1f'lOmtt1t. I will fllO\'e on 10 the-pennanent pi'()Oeduro.

7- 11- 1980 Conf1itution du Cten~dle ~ :23

fTtXIt) pour l'im~t~tnt. Je puKrais plus \'olontiers aux procedure~ permancntcs.

Parm.i let pn>Ce!dun:ll pcrm~nentes il y a oellC$ ql.l'on CVQque i !'article 41, et qui pourraicnt oependant donncr lieu d un rH~-rendum, si Id provinces propoe!ent une proCedure aherm~· live. 11 )' A eclle q1.1i est prC'fll<: i l'atticle 42, et il )' • c.clles qui sont prCvues aux articles 4'1 et )C$ articles qui tulvtnt. C't st la proc&lure. qui ttl p~vue. i l';utkle 42.. s ur l;equellc je \'Qudruil! ,roir des Cd;eircissemcnts quam au cbamp de soo applicalion. E~t...c:e que je lis correc.emem qu'en vettu de- !'article- 41. !'article 42 qui pe:rme·t au Pulcment CQnadicn de re<:ourir l un reRn:ndum sans tc.nir compte des J~isJaturcs des prcwinocs.. per-dessus la t!tc de~: l~g,lilatures,. ett•oe que je !Ill oorrtcto­mcnl que-oeue. pos$1bili te ""appJjql.lc, en \'CZtu de l'artick 47, 9 l.a form1.1k d 'a.mcndement metnc qui aura 616 mise au poi.nt il l'anide 41 et qu'eJic. s•awllque. Egalcmc:nt a toutes let modiO· cations qui liOn I l num6r-Ccs ill';•nicle SO?

• 142S

Cc $t:ll•it 11\ll premiere question. monsieur le ministte. pour qu'il soit bien clajr pour le comit~- que le cba.np d'applicatio.n de la p~huoe d'amc:ndemtnl prCvut a l'•rtide 42 $'applique­a !'enSemble des donnOe$ que je vieM d'~voquer.

M . C•retien.: Oui.

Le sin•leur ·rre-m"l•y: La reponsc ~ oui. Ans 6quivoque?

M. Chtitiefl: C'c:st que. Jelon oc qlli ~~ Ccrit il !'article 42-. IOr~!qu'il )'aura un bloca.gc coostjtutionnel. I' article 42 pourra intctvenir sur tout le$ ll.tp«U de-Ill Coewtitlltion cun~diennc:.. C'eu la fa~ dont c'cst Cc:-rit ~ c'~t la fat;On dont jc le comprc.nds.

Le si.Mteur Trtlllblay: Je n'ai pu disccr116 dans le texte. d moins que je. ne. l'aie m~ I lu, uU<:uoe reference li ce que vout vene-r. de dire, il 5al'Oir km;qu'i.l )' aura b!ocage.

M. Chretie:t~: Monsieur le sCoatcur, jc pensc que nws en avons discu16 ample~nt et cenai~ premkrs n'l inlstrcs des Pf'O\'inoes et eertuin.s de mes c:oiiCJUCS i la C ha mbre des communes et au Stl\81 orn soulcv~ oe probltme .• i SII\'Oir es-t-ce que l'a rtide 42 qui ~voque la pl)la:ibilite d 'un rererendum pour liJicr ks prob!Cmes consti tutionneh al.l Canada, est·ce que cec article 42 .s'appJiqucrait sans diSlCussion pre:tlable affi:. les provinces1 L' lnaention du IC!-UJflleur est que I'Artide 42 e~t eort!ttulir j l'11.rticle 41. Nou! fi\'OOS d tjil d6clar6.. et je pcnsc que le prtmjer ntinistrc l'a declarE-Jul~n•ltnt cJ~r M. Blakency, M. Davis et ttrtains autres premicn ministrcs ont $OI.IIevC k meme pro{)IC.me. OOUS avOJlS d6clar6 que sj Je tCJtte qui CSI devant nous ft'e:U pa.s suffi~:amment c-J;tir rour m<lntrer que l'article 42 n'entre en application qu'aprts que le processus de !'article 41 ait 6t~ utilisE~ nous wnu'llet prCt$ 1 le clarifier.

Lt Haatwr Tt1'mblay: V out ite~: plits :l el:\rifl~r le-teJt te de ra~-On i cc qu'il soit bien clair.

M. Oui.tien: De fa-;on il oe que ce soit clair que c'est en ea& de blocage oonstitutionnd.

lA iit~Mft-uJ Trem.bJiil)': Son! Je $ui.~ trCs heu~ux de-ocue J':f'Cdfion. ntfli$ a $011 tour. la pr&:ision pose quelqucs prob­lcmcs. L-orsql.l'il y aura bloeage. l'artkle-42 JX)UN3h inten'e'nir.

(TraJuctitm )

There art pennunent pr<X'Cdl.lr« outlined in Sccticn 41 which could lead to a rtfercndu1n if ptO\•illCC$ prO<pO~e amond· mcnlll. 1'herc arc a.bo amendin& procedun.:s Qlltl incd in See• lions 4 2, 47 and in .subsequent $0Ciions. I WOll ld Jn:e some cl:trlficalioo on t he appUcalioo or Section 42. I)() 1 uDdt:rSu.nd CX)rreclly lh<~l under Section 42, the C'.e.nadi:m Parliamen can hold a referendum without taking the pro-vincial legisbturcs into aooount? Ha\'e I also unde.-stood rom:«ly t h:H under Sc1.1ion 47, the Above poS3ibility ul:so appltc.s to the amc.odina form1.1la provided ror under Section 41 aa well as to a!l the a1ne.ndtnCl1ts listtd In Section SO?

My fint question, Mr. Minister, i,; dcsisnod to clarify for tbt Committee. tbe precise app4ication of the amendln& Jlf'OOC· du.re provicJ.c.-d ror in $e<:ti()n 42 and tO ciAtiry W)ICtbc:r it applies in all the caKs I hii\'C j!J.$t n11.mcd.

Mr. Cltrttien: Yes .

Scmtor Tnmbby: The reply is nn uneQ.I.Ii\•QClll yes?

Mr. c•rcirie~~: AcCQrding to Section 42, the provi$ion.s of thi~ scccion would apply to all aspects of tbe Canadian constrtutjon in the t:JI$e-or 111 deadkx:k. Th31 is tl1e way in which it is written and t hat is how I undcn 1-o•nd it.

Se•alor Trt•bla,r- Unless I read incorrectly. I did I)Ot

detect 11.ny reference to a deadlock of 311)' SOft .

Mr. Chrtticn: Sen-l'll<K. I fcel lhAlllmplc dlscu:ssion hni bee.n devoted to this question. Some prcwi.ncial Premiers and iOtne ()( my oolle.~gud in t he House of Cmnmons ltnd in the Sc:nale rai!cd t his question of Sect~ 42 which provides for a referen· dum to sol..e constltutiooal problems i.n Canad.a. They "'-antcd lo know whether Section 42 would apply ""'ithout prior wn:s.uJ. tation with the provinc~. The d~ftcr's i.ntention was 10 mat e Seetion 42 oot~sequc-ntlal to Section 41. Wt e.lrtady !:tilted­and I t hink the Prime Minister ~id 110 hitmelr whco Mr. Blakcney, Mr. Davls and some other Premiers taiscd the-samt quC$tic.m- thll.t, ir it Ill not sumciently de11r in the prc.~po!ltd text that Section 42 "''Wid only come into cJTeC1 aftct Section 41 bad bctn appfiod. "''C ate reedy to clarify t he wording.

Senator Trtmbla)': You are ready to clarif)' the-text so that there be no misunderSI.ilnding.

l\tr. Chretier~: So that it is q1.1itc cl~r dmt tl;c sCCiion only eppfit:§; in the case of a oonstilutionnl deadlock.

Se• ator Trtlllblay: Ftne, I am very h.appy wit.h that e).plana· tion, bt.~t it doef r;ei$e S(lflle probkms..

l: l4 ConstitutiQn or Canada ~--------------~~~~~-------

7·11 · 19t!O

ITml Ma premiere q~tioa toldlt « qu~ ftppcJkrad le constat

d• bloea;ge. Q-ud '1 •W"all•ll bloage JW:Iaf't .. l k recours I l'attide 42? Pr~mXrc q~Ktlioo. Oe•QC:me quod-. Qlli SCtait

JU&~ qu'il y a ou qo'lt n'y a J"':S bloc:tsc1 Troisl~mc ll11Ution. Lonqu:c: le: ootiStat du blocaae csc fait par quc.lqu"un que: jc: ~uhaiterajs que vouJ m'tckotiftez.. e:~1-cc qu'll y uta u.n rc:oourt, p:u c.Jtempl.a au• «KHS de justice, l)(lur une c:.,mtest2• tio•' du con$111 qu' ll y 11 blocage j-u.stifi111tt l'intene11tion de l'artk:lt .42?

M. Otrttiu•: D'abord. jt iult OUl'ett a.ua s•untiom du comitC. NOttS t.rS\'ai!km Cll ce IDOIDtllt j a..., de qudk Cap nciJII.f pouniolu dftcrmloct k comtaL oomca1cr at fatl q•'ilya biocaJC. 11 y a pr.•ir•n mkamsmd 011 p.llllbili\Q en " dom~jne 3Ur ksqu~lt je M tll~ pu ert maurc d'4:1abottt en oc

moment J'ai.mcrAu 1volr l'a\lil du oomitC d ('S sujet. £vtd~m­mcnt, le-eonuu .. , C'Cjt un Ctat de fait: 11 y a bJOC'41,C· AJors qui pourro le ooonntet? Cela pcut .s'i.nsc:t irc dliM le terrtjlll. 11 )' a une lenrc qui • Ct6 publtle-ee matin dui le. jQurnaux c~ qui rCpondait i l'objtt'llon de M. Oavis i ect cfrec »>ic q...e le eoftftat l'inscrit dint k tempt.. Si! u.o momc.n1 clonnC.. iJ o"y a pJw de pt<llt'b a.prb ••••• inntatM: un ~~ pruc. iJ r••n Wl Climent de' CCinJIIII qui i•tct'fieodol an•t qc;c l'attidt 4:2 puuse tfltm' m appiQt*.

• 14]()

En c:e qui ~o-onC~erne la tto.i5i~me quCJtion .que 1101u me posrt, I.UI tons-tat, e'C;t t eonJtat~ (IQt tout le mondc cfreetl\'emenL 11 y aura un dtlaj df. temp .. Ce pournit CLre so~a forme de cowtnlllicadon (:Jlttele •Ot.I''Crnement ocnt,-al ec kt ~veroc·

mcnlt ~~~·. par kuru 01111 at::tttt et, ii le dllai expire., ..... 4•.... ' ait I«''rd .. •• dipadtia.n d .. cc.d 5fU k ~ dll blea. ll. l'artk:le 4-2 pourra cntrcr eft applieadoa. et it y av.ra. tcl qu.c prfYit i rartkk 4!, lt.ft: tff&e11d11m.

Vous me dernandca ai b trlbunsu.t pourtQnl interYC-nir si l'un ou l'autte dea: niY'CIIux de souvc:mem<e:nt p,..tend que le eon~ta t n'2 p3i ~~~ r&lltf.. Hh bien, lu p~~r!licll en ~ni ou les d coyeM "-r&adic:ns J)OI.Irr<NU to-ujour.s dCpo6er devant lcs tribu· n&u• une rtqu!cc prt tendant que la i ituatl.ocl a't p11 atteiDt NI INhlritC figalc.. si je pen cmplo)'er octte cxprmlo.·IA.

Pour mol oo ne dit JUDI-il ea q•db dK'IOMta~ b tribua\1.1. pecvcl'lt latcnuit Plttt qoe la ec:-htUliOCI at 1£ et

tl Ull def ft~U): de JO'I*Y"MmCtlt ~ SUit piU ill coutit11tioo,

c'ct~ an dtoycns ou l dc.laroupes intC~ Chi m.f:m~ 1 des 14MIVcrnemc:nts de fttire dttcrmi..ct par Id ~" .t-i <.twi QU nl)n la situation ~St C:OMtltutklflncllc. A!Qrs., ~ tt'al JIO.t i roire de commc:ntaires sur J'lnrcnocntion des tribumn•A. A 1110ln.1 que le le~det pense que je n'al pat dJt la bon.ne ebOC!Ie ,,

Le Kuctur 'fnMblap Jc VOIV$ rcmcrdoe keucoup de ocs kl.aricU~emtnU, tnOMi«&J le mioistre. et jc tire la condvskm de ce QOC 'tOIJ$ ''eiln de DOIU d.i.re CjUC:, COllUM comtll, Y01t$

IIOUS cknu.adez c• q.dq~ 10tte d"ibborb del rfpoltsn au troit q"'"tioas que ftl pot.f:a,.

M. c•rhjell! CC1ti1Mtntnt cl n(Ju$; \ltrt.,IU ti c'cat IOCqiC· able au gOu\'t tncmcnt, J c vien<lrai devant le comlt6 expflqucr

le• raison.s po\IT lc,q~o~~Ut• oc ne J•est pas et le COMit~ dCcider.~ , Ill Ctmmbre d«idcra et ~e: SC.nat dicidcfll.

[ Trtuulllt(<»rl

Yo. ay that Scctioft 42 wwld apply in tbe a~ ol a deadlod Wbat la .d ol &ailllod. ._., ,JUUiry the aflllkattOII

o( the ua-.1 That if M)' lirtt QltCKIOII. My~ q.alion is: •llo would dttetmitiC •hctiMr tlrrtcrc 's 0t is 1'1011 dc'HklcU Third quntion; wbcn the- d.::adb:k b declared b) IOirlCOfiC

whom I hope ~01.1 woukl name, will thetc be oppofhlniiY for reowrse to the OC)Ura t () oontest a ckdamtkl.n of deadlock justirtlna I be a1mlicotion ol Soct~•• 42'!

Mr. C~lit;t~! Firs:L I mufit fit.Jtc th:at I am 4)flell 10 the ~loft' oltbe Commit-. At prC'ICDl, •'C are •-or~i~~;& to dctem~ine w-hat CC~G.ttil•!e'l a dNdlcd: aad !low 10 dcda~ "­Thou' are ..-enl po~Afxhde • lilidl I am ROt in a poltt.eOil to •-pceiry ac the moment. I ~Id Uh to he:ar the COIIlmntcc'• oplntont on thJS qua.lioll. Obvioii,Jy, • ded::tratloft i~ a Mace­me:nt or rn c.:t: there i$ ll dcadlook. So. wbo w(IUk! dl:termil'ie thatT 11 rnny be fl question of thnc. A letter publi!ihed thl ~ nwt'l'lln& fn the nc'rip:ll)l!"fll rct~pondcd t ~> Mr. Otwls who obJec:• tcd 10 a declaralioo or Oc11dloc:~ belli£ a {UJ)C'tion or tiMIC, 1'hl1 would mull th.JI U. afttr aft ln.tUII rttt:p bat becon take,., tbrn r:s no P"CICP beiDJ INdc.. • determined period q/ lime ••Id be allownl eo,... bcf<nSm10111"-l Llkfdfea.

As for yaut thitd question, n dc:cla~t~lion or dca<lloc:k would be made by everyl)lle aft er • ocrtnin pc.ric.KI had l&pe>cd. The

dcc:l•r•tlon oooJd be in the r~mn of a lettct or otllcr menns (I( communiC141tion bet•'Cetl the ce.ntral ~rrunett1 aM the p,.. rladaJ poetftfllC.Dts. Therd'on. i( after a praen'bcd period ol ti.nc, M llfCC:IIICM 01 ~ A~t 011 lM; proWc:M had bcce rQChcd, Scaiod .. 2 • .a.ld 111'-e effect ud tll«c -ouW be, as pr001t4ed, a rrJcrc""ulft.

Vou 11k me wbctll~:r lbe oouru c:ouid intc:rvcn.e if OtiC IC'!Icl of JO!iCrnm-cnt c:birn.1 tho1 t th~ dcadlook does 004 tlliKt, The panics• ln\l<l&vcd or CaBadilln cith:cM could ll lll·ays apply to the court• ttatina th;ll t he .tltuadOl'l had nol reached iu lcaal m1turity, lr I may use that ~prt••

lt c:a11 KW~ be stated a~~C~tly ~tnckr •hat eitee.hRUOC:J the CC~t.~tU may r.ntef"mC. n.c- COMC.itutioll • tkte alld •' oee or other lcvtl ol p-em:mcnc doa 110t rapcct it, n il •P to

interutcd C'ltJttltl. Jtoapl or aorn aovcrn.lfKnU t<J laavc the couru determine t.hc tonstinlllonulity or a g:iven queuion. Thcrcrors-. h U noc rny pt.Ac:e to «Wnment on intcrrcntion by the count. l)nlt!.'l tbe leader thlnkt I have riOC s:aid the ritht thin& ., ,

Stnatot ·rl'f.tnbi•J: Tban.~ you t>Cry much for that elarifK.'a• do•. Mr. M!nl.,~a. I c:a11 COI'Idude 1b1t )VU •·re ult:i114t ut, • • a Com~n~ttee. lO uy lo reply '0 the tlt.t« q•cstioBs I ju~ 11Ji:td.

Mr. Cltrf rka: Ddinitdy; and w• •Ill d-ttcrmine whether lt is accepta ble to the gO!ietnlncnt. I 1't'Ollld a~2r before lhc Con1mlttee to expioin why certain umendmenb were noc IICCepta bh.' und then tbc ded!ilon "''uuld be up to the Com1nlt · tee, to the HouK and 10 tbl: Scn~te.

7-11 · 1980 --------~C~·~·~"~;,~"'-"' ion du Canadn 2: 25

IT~.t,J

lA ~tttlr TrttMIIr: J~ 1ci:s uh hcvrcvJ. de ccue ouver1src , ,

M. Chlirlr•: J'a\ 1'\nrenrlon, moi\Sir1,1r Trcmbl&y, de faire­

moi·~l'lloe de.- s.uuc:.-rioru po.ree que nou.J ' """'aiUoM i cc prob~mc aerut:IJtmtllL Nout nons d'alllcuu d{ji. ~ dtt n:un:t'-s 6e c:ert~i•s 8QIU\'Cf'Mmet.ts prOt'illd.tlll i c:et c.ff(t.

Lt W..ltvr Tr~y: 8oL A1on. ck fac- f. k:lairu IK'II

dCt.llllraltoM et de (a90fli tOrllr d"un.e sone d'ablu·action du.a;

laqudlc .. , nous 1101tnmes maintc.nu.t JUtqu'a maintena.nr, vous tt moi, est·ce q1.1c n<lfill poun ions: rester la. ra\'(ln dont on pcut rtpo~re aux ~mcs Qloltltions que j'a\ )'10.\Ca 1 parr if de l'upl;rit.IKIC de S~eplemhrc1 On oou.s a ellpUqul. je pc.11$t que lOI!t l'a-u fait ~IMtM d k f'CC'J<:IUn au Sl aM se litM

~- onw pmptt'li't'e,. Clft ncMJJ a cxpfiqvf qw eh poirtl de wae du premier mini$tte du Cna4a cc d• ¥6t,-., 11 '/a e• blocll!C

j1,1stiMant l'ac:tion unilt1&11le du Pa.rle.menr d11111 l'ex!*rienoc de l'tl~ er de k ptcntbre ..

You• vt11u. dt fa.i re alhnion 1i l'idl:e que peul·l'ue let

pr~inor:1 diCf·rrXml:f &c-rl.lent io5Cril~ dllf\1 le <»D51at du

bklcay. parb b bypochbe6 q•c JIOti pourrioas (l(IIMicfUc:t,

Or. il MC vmblc q•'i lt Coof'Crmu ck ~q~tembn. l h

de:nll«e ..U.ncc, il n'y avail pu a~C"'fd '"',. le dilpOSik de M. Trudt.au quant au btocat~ t t le- diaiAOIIJC du ptcmier minimc dv Munitoba. qui, ou nom de t~el coll~a:uea. ofYrait une nouvc:lle t&nce de nesocit tiOfl pa!CC qu'i 1101'1 point de vue, 1ft IICJ,Odatioll .. ·~tait pu lcrmin&. .. EsH.e que, quut aux railJ

OCIIIICfctt ck KJ!Icmhre duaict, li vous paralt iftCJOIItc:stabk q-u'1l y ail cu ~ ju:5cir~a .. a l'iq~thoakat d• f'OCOif;rt l fanide. u l)lti>C que da& 13 sit111rion prfsute. cc q11i tc passe ur I'Cqulvoknt du reeourt A !'article &l.

M. Or6th:n! On ne peut IIJ)pliquer l'urtic.le 42 ji la Jituation de cct ~t6 ptnoe que l'artk:k 42 o'uis:tait pu 11lon ..

U M.aae~tor Ttt.War- Jc l'OW park blu d'iquiVaknt ..

M. CldiJn: Cc- a'Cifl pat l'fqui'fakftt... C"ua q~ott k: 9 JUut.

IIOIQ IYOn.t n. IU'It m.ruon dn prcmitts mhtiltra des provi..:a cc du prcmH:r mindlrc du Ca.nad~ qui ftttt cooKwtive: j

!'opinion upri.m6e. jc <:rob, l>at tous I~ pn~mlttt mini:strrt

provinchuu. ninsi que le premier minilltre du Cllmu..ill, 1 s:wolr qu'il devait y avoir du ehtl\gtn)CtiU conJtill.ltiOitncb r11pid('l

n C.Mdl cc ql.lt. 1001 k moNe Hail prtt lie faiu...

Le 9 jlli"· M .. TN&u 1 f'C9' ici j Or:taq fa; premiorn minislrct et ifs 5e JOnl doft.M: llA b::Wuricr q~;~i dll:¥1it .te

krmincr par unt con!~rciM:c d'ltnc Kmal.nc l On11n aYCe un ma.IWfnr rl'\\4 prCc:i$;; lcm-. I"OI' r&entanu, 1oit let ln ini5-tr~ de la Juiticc ou lu 1nini:.stres dct Arrnir!!$ iruergouvernemcntales, le

maDCIII d 'cg•yer d'en \'Cnir j un oompromlll ,ur le& 12 point& qui ltaltftt i l'ordtc da jow. Le Ol:lllitat daM c. putt de\•ait •

faire Ion ck lt canJ&nc:c- COMlJIIJiionlt!C!Ie ~ fiMJis de s:cpt:tftloo

bre .. Tout le monc:le Ctllh d'acconf li-dat.u 11 y aurait QM

conrcnnl.'fl en St:plembr~ pol.lr rcrmincr le <Ubut sur ks 12 items, 011 11 majoritC des 12 lccn\S,. Je penfe que ccla Ctail trb c:lair .. D'llllieurs daru Je oommunlqu~. je ne l'al pas devanl

moi , mais d y a eu un lmendement. SI je me 50U.,.kns bi(l) .... da propos. de M Trude3u. le 9 JUift lots de u

conRf'CIQ: ck prciSif' ..... ua mol aqit C..l dslafll pour mom.ru dairem~t.nt q•'il raUait m vc1ur 1 uac: QOIIKlhmoft k mou ck 5Cplt.mbrc f!r « eh;ttlg«ncru 11-YIIJI Cti: JlfOpOI6 p;~r ki prc·

I 7i'Uvcti• l Se:•tor Tr .. d4• r. I:Ull ~I')' pkued wit• this frulM:u.

Mr .. O.ritlt~•: Mr. iremblay, I intend to mt"~kc tolliO IIU@:I~·

tiMs mysd( bcc11u....se we are worUng on that quelldon at this

''cry m01nent. We have also received proposal• to rhis cJl'cer rrunfOme pr-o.iac&.lcovunmeoca.

Sreslor Tn..W.r. F"mc. In order to lbrd some lipt•our

proctcditl~ ai'Mt to make an at.u.ca oiOIIrcomtncl'lltlh.atfar. could -·e now tee how allose q11oriom wooJd bt=- usweral it1 the context or tht C\'enl$ or Scpte1nbc:.r1 lt h:u """ cAplained 10 us-1nd I thrnk.. you did so yC11meJr in makin1 rdc.rcncc to the 5) )"CIIrt-thll the Prirnt Minitllu qf'Canada and you.rsclr dc:rttmi:ocd that rhe ckadl«:~ •bkll ruutted rrom talb tb~

Mmmtr ud iD S<pttnabet jusufkd tk snibtcrial tctto. ol hrhamem ..

Now, you jlljl ttuumed that one possibility mla,hr be lhat

the pn.winecs thtmKh-ct would ~~~'C JOmc uy i~1 a doclar&l1on el deadlod:. lt io«au: to me that at lhe t.a mortl.n.a of the QICI(am« ift Sqtcmbcr. Mr Trvt~eu•s dilpoNf of clulboet

dill flOC ooi!dck willll lb:tt of llle Premier of Maalt.ok wrto. on

behalf or hi1 collcat"~· h;ad 1uu:c•tc:d ahoat a new taakln be held u negotiation• we~ unrinl11hcd .. So. i.n tbc liiht or las.t September's ~vent '• is a hero 1'10 doubl in your mind t11at lherc

wu a dudloc~ jlUtiryioe• mc:allurc equivrdct~l to the applie<~·

don of ~"'liorr •n

Mr .. Chr,tftn: Seer ion -U c11nnot be :tppJied to the ,itu:uloo

In SeptembcJ bccau,c the actto.n did not eds.1111 lhnr tjme._

Seaator T~...,.•r. I referred to 1.11 equivalen1 measure ..

Mr. Otftlta: 'J"buc i:s: 110 • ivaklaL A 111«1la,c o( lk

pr~l Phm~n and olthc "'IDC 1\haistcr ol Caud.a ._ beld Otl June 9 U I ttsuh. of the MCd (eh by all lc~tdtn tO

make r11 pid tOIU1 itutk.lnal ebangc• in Canada .. Evcr,onc ..... u ~11dy to 11U1ke t lwun ..

OD J.,.e 9, M r .. Trvdcau reetn"Cd lite Prclnic'n here ia

Oua ... The) ctlabblhcd a ai.neaabk •bidl•u 10 athniaate lt1 a week lol\1 eonf«cnoe in OttiWII •flcrc then rcpruenta• tivef.. 1he Mlnlttt.ll of Justjce or()( lntergO\<ernlnentul :.rraits:,

would have the n111nd;11 t: or rryln.u. t<l reach a. oonl prombe oo rbe 12 poin11 on the a.gcDdo. The doc.:l.aralion about "''bich we

are &&£killS was 10 be dealt • 'ilh at Sc:tMe:mbct'a CoMlllutio~~oaJ C:O.f<f'CliCC. £W1')'tlodJ ay«d Oft tPtat: t!tcn ._Id be a

COftfcnnoOC 1.• Sepcrmbct to doH the: debate Ofl the t•etre ncrm ot mo.t ot tbe twdw itemt I think it w:u very clear .. 1 n1leed In lhe prciJ~ tcltasc whi..:-h I do 001 have tu:re, the:«: was

an am('Jldmf:nt, I( my metnory I~ corn:er- ir I remenlbeJ • bar Mr. TNdellu 1111ld on June 9 at lli• pru$ oonren"!nco-a WQrd

hMI been t:hai\I;Cd 10 iUie more ckarly tbl1 a COtlduiOioo .-odd bvc &o be racltcd in SC'plt.nber .. T1us cb• hid bcu

~ b) tk prcm~ ahr:~ they hli"N cl~t.attced

2 : 26 ___________ ..:c::-="""-••,.,.~'"=-::c......===----·---------.:..,·• H980

I Tat} mien mifti1:trc1 e~a-ml-mes; tda a C:tC pevt~lrc contut~ par la "'he. Cc jour-!!, etpcnlbnt, c:'Ctlit uti cl•ir, C'l le 11-ot n1it Cc£ c.l\lnj.C danli cc contexte-JA.

• 1435

lA lflll:ll f!ur Trembl:ay1 De <tllCI mot s'llgiuah·il? M. ('hrCtltlt: Jc ne le s.a" plus c.xactc.mctU, je pootrai l'OIJS k

dire quand jc r~leru:l raL Mcab il y a cu un dll.l""cme.nt de dc:rnitro mlnuw • • , J'ecais prtsccu A la COftfCrencc de pmac, jc m'c.n rappc:lk . . •

lA M•al.w TreeMay: Cda scta.it ~&tUe fi'O'olt &. pvcrnc de oocrc comltA:.

M. Cllriil...: Jc • 'ai paa cr;.rie dt C'OIIptt ta cJt,c.n~ ea qut.rc mfmc A Je fail l'bistoriqwt dtce qu:ts'at putl. Ea aou aYON dh •aria avoi:t ta tn:Jis !nOG de t,..v ... .-. i•ttllllfl mes coltabofate.rt et moi•mtme cfu.rut tout l'lti, q~;~e J'•l erv i un momc:nt 6onne que DOllS flioos prCs: d'un aooord: mala arriv& au vc/Mircdi, au moment <JU la coofCrenoc t'Cil t«rnln6e, on Ct1h piu a l()in d'un ICQ)rd que la prtcmKrc ,oum~ 00 fa~·ais oo111menoet. Alon, pour mol le-c:Qn~t ot, a'il n·e~t J'lllJ clair dant votrt esprit, 1nontleur I~ ti:natcur. il ~~ 1rb olnlr IJ~nJ le mien! ~" J'C41 ruil dcYlllnt l'opinion pubUqu~:, l:c d'olltcura., 11 a 616 cJ&iremont ~tabl i qut la liste prC:scntOc p11.r le prc.111illr mlnh&tre du Manhoba )c dernicr vendrcdi de la oonffRUKC ne r"-inil 1'18' l'unlilnl.mh• oommc bcaucoup de: tent l'ont djc Et 11 y a. eu let aujet da rnltct au point de r.ai"' p~r certaint ao-~wr~tt~nC~nU.

lA N:Mtt•r Tr~r. Moasieu.r 1t mi.n:Din, si YOU me k pmnotttc R ••• Si II!IOil tmtp dt panlk ut ba)t, C'Oftlrl!llt W~UJ DCNJ; evu olfm b pouruitc " d.iaklpe. JC rc-~i piu tard tuc:tcrMfll •• poial oi f ttl &us rmd•

1"'Mo JoiM O.lnu• (Sea.tor- H•)'ll~ Mr. Nrttrom. Mr. N')'Siro-: Tlaank you very much, Mr. Chairma•. I

wo.~ ld like to a5k • numbtt ol Quc:rliool olthc Mlnk ttr 6f Jutdce today. I want 10 commence by ul:ina hhn 1 quadon that $oeJ ~ery l'Ct)' m'-'ch to the oore of Libclral Party ptinci· pJc• end whec the L.ibetal Patty tu'-' .'cood (l)r for m11ny y~u m ~r oo·uncry aiMI abo 10 wh011t I tb&nk w1u one()( th~ m~or trudo-ofl'l Initiated by the Lib«al Party 11'1 d1e rec:ent oonllilu· cion ncaollutlons, nnd that is tbe elllen1ion ollun.auBgc rlshc.­to people In out country, whi<:b I k:now tbc mJnUter ft.:ls very, very deeply about.

I nocJCc I• the raolotion be-fore u that Scclioft llJ o/tM BNA Act win still 2pplyto tk Provi-.:e ol ~bee: •*' tUt Stcd c• l3 ol dw Muitobl An.. 1110, ... II•Pf!IJ eo Mat~iiOba. alld wb~ proorida; f« Muitob&m a;imi .. r tlli11p tlut are provided fiN ~bcoc. • •hie. is maially tlte ptOKC'UO•t in ()Kboc ol the riahu of Ar~alophorlcs i11 the ooan• and i• the ksllb· hire.. •llic:h In dfect ~nates Quebec: an i:m:li1utt0n.llfy bllt'll'i"J pr~ince. Tbc ume thing ~pplic:s ia the Province of Manitoba.

•-~~w~·~--~~-~~~~~­cd princ.lpk1 ol 1be Libc-1'31 Party on l ing11i1tic oqufllity, did he not •pply the ume pl'incipks that IHII'I in Seccion I JJ of Ilk' UNA 1\(t 10 t he provinces of New 9ruMwid: 1H~ Ontnri(l where urc Jhuntcd the lwQ ~rgest Fta.~M:opbon~ 1ninoritics anywtu:re In this CO\Idntry ouu:ide of the Province ol Quebec?

I Tnt-ICIIIII;o,.) 2ftcrwards. but Oft llut ~)' day, rt ne ¥C.JY deu tMt this wu lbc reawn for the c.hancc

Semdor T rt .... ay: Whllt 'II.'Ofd was il? Mr. Cllr ttltw I do not rcmcl'ltbtr i!.\tl<:dy, I CQuld tind out

ror nc:tt linK •f you w""' but there was a 1:111 •nin1ue change. . . I WIU Ill tbe pttM oonft-1en~. I remember YCry \IIICII. ..

StutOt TrtaWay: U )'OU ~:Wicf find out, 11 would help our commi:u~

Mr. ~m.: 16o DOt. -aM to ea.pte i• u~ui,.. CTCn if 1 p--e: yo. ..... hdtOric:al blcqro.ncJ. So .. na- ahrcc IQOfllh$ o( mtat51''C wotk d11ri_na lk WJIUftct, my colka.&ua: and I Slated lhal we rally thouaht •-e were comi111 close to an ayremcnt; yt'-1 on the f.rlday, whc.n tbc: 0011fetc:oot t-ftded, we were funher from a n •areemc:nt than .,.-e bad beta when we first star'ttd tbe JIC'OOC"· Then, IW~nollrable Scnator, the ~wit i~ l'try cleur in my •n ind If 11 I• not in yours! lt aiJ happened bcf01e the Jl'lblie eyCII. h wat dearly .tl~ted tlult the lift submlued by the Premier ol M11nitob11 on Friday, the l:u-t day or the Confcrc.nce, Will not unnninlously :tettpttd a.- nwany have said. Some t:<larlficllitio"t ..--ere giYCn by 11 few 80'-crnmc" t:.s.

Stu.tor Trt.W.1: tr )'O't wdl al'ow me. Mr. Miuiucr ••• it mJ ti.x is up i w1U ClOftM bid: later to wlrlcrc •c llla.YC' COIIIIt, si.:e. )'08. otTC«'d "'pii'WC the rrUIUcr.

Le coprkiclt'ft1 (ffl'•lrut •bji): Moas;ieur Nysuom. M. N)Slrent: Merd boi'*OCMII\ mona:ieur k prbidcna. J'ai

plullieul'1 qucsdons £ pot.tr au minisuc de la J usdce a\ljour­d 'hui. Tout d'abord. UI!IC qut:,ll(ln ~ui touche nu (ondemcnt 1nt~t'le des prir~clpe• du pl&rl l li~r~l et de la phiblophit: q u'd d.Crcnd depui3 de nombreuJcs 11nnfcs dnns nocre payt i!l '!ul a CtC l'un des pan·lb pointt dUcndut dans Id rt!cent&a; nCsQo::ia• dons oons-tltutkwlntll1!1, A ~11\'0ir d'aooorder il la J)OI)Ulation des droitt~ linglt istiqucs. Je tab que le nlinlstrc y tient bea-.ooup.

Je rc:muqM. daJU ta rtt;o~uuon ~ut ltOUS C:t•d-.s. que ran:ide Ul de r Actc de l"Aminq"' du N«d briunoiq-ue s'~ppliq'Uieq kMJOUI'1 n ()Mbtt cc 411e l'anielc 2l dt I'Acce cht Muiwbl4e 1870 •"•Pflliqucn 11u .\ba.tot. puitqu•d oltrc a.w: tnafti1oba1M I pc• prU " ~ dme q~~e c:c qai cUste au QuChoc, i UVO!f CliiCIW.telkmcltt Ja protection 1:11: ~ dd drohs des anglopboflcl devant let trebu-uu• et i I'Aucmb!Ce 16g,idati\'e. A£1Ui I• Q~~:lbcc «HI btlinc...c dal'l$ scs i~itution~. l.ll mCmc chotlc s'al>t)hque nu Manitoba. f:.unt dm&n6 kt principc.s fondamencauA du pattl li!,!r.tl en matiCA: d'C,alitl lin&u iS'tique, pOurqu.,t kl n1lnh•1re n'a+il p:lS appliqu~ loCJ pri_neipc$ de l'urtjclc IJJ do ! 'Ace~ di!· l'Aentrique d u Nord btit.anniquc au Nouvenu•Onmswick el a I'Ootario otl l'oo IN)Uvc ks dcu~ pl111 Jflll'ldCI mlnoritbiftnet<:Opbones du pi)'J Jl l'cMtriocur du Qu.!bec't

(Tut•l Mr. Otd1lM: At no point durinc the kill& deblte on the

oonJthulion in Canada bas the federal SOYcrnment propot;Cd to Impose &ctlon 1)3 <m ltny provioccs. Any ptovlnce' th:u Wlnlcd 10 bind themschrcs are wdco•ne 10 d<l ~ I h~vc IQ tell )'01.1 thut I am persona.ll)' disappointed tbll t there ore not ma ny provlnoes today that w11.nt to do tbat. In 19?1therc 'lll>ere se~~~~ ptovln«ll that were wiUin.g to bind thr-mtc:lvn by Sc1:1ion I JJ, aocf now • ·e 11e do.n w the t..-o. Qvc.bec 1tnd Manltobo., who •re obliJllted by the conltit'UtionaJ tca.t, tnd the Pf0¥1nc::e ot New BlvNwidt is WJI •illlaa to bind iuclf In 1971 1hctc: wvc ~" provi.noecs tbt u :•d 111 lJW eot~lc:tCftC'C at Vk1cwia l .. l t.he)' w'" witift.r IO I:Ud t.llcmld"ft. No- WC' are dowa. oo • 'f'Oha&ary bui:s. oaJ)' to ~"kw Bna.nt~ I alft cliuppli•l· cd by lhal (act. 8d. ncitber t11 1971 801' i• Bill C-60 ~law we tried .a (oroc, but ·~ al•'l)'1 t.atk abollt otf'c:ri111 it u • poNibili ty to the pnwioee to bind thtm:ICJYU

Mr. NJ1trCJ•: In other "''onh, ,ou are coofirmlnc th.at )'OIJ made 11 deal with Mr. O<~.vi5 bec.~uJc • , ,

Mr. Otritit'lt.l No, I hs~·c to tell~ that . • , .

• 1440

Mr. N)l11tr• •: . • ir I c:a.n lin.ish. Sc:etklft 133 •ppfla~ eo the ProtttMc o( Quebec aod lt apphu i• crtcct to Manitoba. Pmn&cr Hatftdd would tike 1.0 apply to Ne,. BruMVo"icl but Mr. O.v1111 N.. aid DO to lltt Pl'(lllnfltt ol One.a'" ud there arc ,.,..,,. edict W!lp la your eharwr tUt arc bllldiflc 011 the prori~~ea, •lldt as la~ rtp.u wta it pc1U 1a lb tduc:a· liM. thf ehlncr ol richts. NO'W .11y. btc:atDC et tl.c: pni!Clipb olthc Liberal Pany, and wby, beau• ol t~ mnd fll the patly ewer the ye;tl'$'! I can eo. Mr. CbiJtn'*n. b«lt to tbr 8 and 8 Comminion in 1961 and look 011 paa.e 135 of the t«''mmendadruti, .and the recommendation wall made tl'ttrt, in erttct, tl\ll t t hiubould be done.

Y~ can ao on to the VK:toda Charter, 1111d )1'(11.1 referred to Uto VIctoria Obant r. in Par1 11 on lltnJUiiiiC flahuo, atnin the Al'nC kind ot COmmitment wou made.

Mr. n rt llttt: Cu I explain"? I juJt u .y that Ill., IKYOU tried lO l.mpc~~~c it on tbc provioc:e1, but-·c •1n)lt c.apruacd t.he YiC"'o' tlwlt we llue- a $110111 cf.es;irc that UN: pr0¥11Kifi wilt bil'ld thcNCt\ou. You caa aU: me- .. tt.y -. ._ve ftOI l~t~~J*Cd i1 011 t.bc.m.. We cocld Juve-. W~t &ccidcd tt.t at tltb li~ne •c ~ ... .a lmpcat et 0111111 pr~ but 1111 tht (!OftJtit•ttOUI tut N il k cdtdq .flOW it .m be padlble ftO'W f« ••1 ~'* who • •nu to *"nd •Udl to ha•'C a COftltilutioul alnl!odtntn:t tNt •111 be bil"ual between: tbt fede~•l IO"fftttneftt aad I be prcwince ,. ho want& to bi.Dd itsd( to be bound by Section 1)), I tm told that Mr. H•dield i11 jllat tcsdy tO do 41u.t and J am ICIUQ& you that at one time we: -wuc: quite (IJ)Cintlllie 11bo.1t t he poulbllity O( Ontario 10 bind i1Jelr1 bllt tOIIlCihllc during the t\lmmer they decided not to.

But J huvc to reptat that we l13ve not t<Kd any Jl<f..w'i~Wcllth.at we we~ solng tq f«ee tbat on them. I'ICtlher Stuklltehe-w:tft, neither Noq Scotia, ndt.Mr P.E.I. We could hav~ but we dcet6ed tblt it w:u not proper al thU time to d<O w.

2 : 27

(Troda~aiOP!)

M. Cltritie•: J11mai1 au OCKitl du long dl:bat 1ur lll a:nthu· tion, le 80UYerttcmetU f6d!r.1l m'a pr<lf!O.cC d 'impot;er l'arh clc flJ li teiJc OY tcllo j)rOvint:c Lcll provin CCll qui l'CY)(nl .M1 l'i_mposer elles•mtJilCII JOilt Jlbrc>i de le (nirc . .le d(»t; dj rc , uc jc suis pctiOI'Iitellernct!l d~"ll Que kc provin~~ ne !ioiem JM phu n4mlwt:U$C$ a l{jourd'ltul A k IOUhllitct, En I 971, :tept Jll'll'UI~ Ctaient di~~CI A ' 'llltllljcttir i l'artide 1 JJ~ a )on Qllt 1)1)111

tom.mt"i tontbb tul}cM!nl'hui i den provinocs. le Qul:bec et k Manitoba, qu1 y tonl Gbft,_& 1tn vertu de la -."'n$tilutton, phu k No.'fU•Br•tttwk;lt q•n le dCdare tou}oun prtti ~ l'irJICIOM:f, En 1971. i ta c..rmacc de. V'tetoria. SC"pt ~WOtr•.m o.t doCcllriq•·dla tt•ic•t ptta it'~ 1 rapecau cd arttdc U~~e 5nlk •••tmaM. k ~o.w:a•·Bra~. ut ptftt j k faire sa•l y fire: ebi.,U Jc tro.vc cell ttCs dlttvant. Mm· n. en 1971, •i dl111 k Bdl C-60, no~t~ a'a\'Oim ocsayi de rcww la provitteeS I J'C1\&*1Cf. ,.,,.,'nt " IIOUII lcur aY005 toujo.IN ol'fcll la pru:s1b11itC de le r,., lre

M. N)'S'trllllll Aulrcment d1t, vou• confirmu que 'I'Oll~ vou1 C.tcs mi$ d"tu;Cind ~tvee M l)avit~ pnrce que .. .

M. Ch.r~lltm Non, jc clolt vllu~ dhe que . . .

M . l'i)'UNifll: , ,, ti YOI» me perrtlenkz de tumincr, I' artic-le Ill s'appliq~o~e n Qdbcc t t .au Munitabll. l..e j:l'cmier mWatJc Hur~eld Krait di,p.lli ' ral'l'fiquct . .. NOIIVtau·BnuiP"kk, ._. M . O.vit I'• rc(tnf pl)llr I"Oatario: lk, it 1 a bniiCOUp d'a.trt:S C:lilotu d.aM "'tiC chute qtx le$ prorri-.:u ICfO«<I obli,pcs de rnpracr, p1r ucmpk la droiU: ~iq111:1 .­matia'e d"echtcl.t-. '-'tqiiOi •Jan. &aat donne ks JIOIK'Ipct. dl:CeadU:II pt.r k ptr11 hbotral et ~ Pl"rtiOCI ~ill delua6:11.. n'im.pot;UoYOUt (»t 1111 provincn de I'CSJlCCter oe. drottd Jc poolfai5 vota renvoyer, rnoni:ictn le pr&tdtat. ilia Commilli)Qit 8 et 8 de 1967, 1 Ill p •ee 141 dei rocommandation' qui porlaient JUtcmcnt ll·dea...-u.,

V oyez la c:hurtc de Vl<ltoria- vou' eo par lii:l. I(IUI i l'hc:u• re-d. la parde 11 aur 1._. drl)it~ liug-.. ls-tiqucs., il a'asi.wlnrl du m.:rrtc enaaacment.

M. Chfitit•: Puit•jc m'capliquer? Jc dissla simplcm.ut qu.e nous n'a'lioM prm» CWI)If de l'tmpOKr au:c: prorinc:a, mait qae no.a aYK)It.' tO.jOU" 1101t1Wmt .ardemmaat q~tt lu ptonMct $C 1"impe~oe&l clloomfnlct VCM~t pGIIVH mt ckmuckr pot~to q~ aous • le lcw a'fOM J11U intposi. ccb aur.it Ctt IX*Itlk. rtUa 110111 a'f'CIIIt cl6diM .-.. an. l'i,.polon' m&:llltc..rtl. k tau~ OCIUUtlltionnei pc:rmctttak IUiAtcaut i toate ~nc:c d'acapcr 1ut •m~mc~~ot OOII~ •t utt<lllnd b&lat&aJ a~w k 1<J1.1YCtnCmctll fW~nl pcMIY 5'1!11J,.t.get j respe<:ttf l'arllde 1 )), 0n tn' itlfOI'Mt Qlo<C .M. llatfidd Cti1 prfl i. le raire et jc dru dire. qu'i une C,poqye nou• ~tionJ •out i fait Opt.itndtb.. IICMI. ptnsioos que !'Ontario nllah le fnirt auW, m:li:s c:cttc. ptovinoc s')' est rcfu:sCe AY eourt de 1 '~1 ~.

Jc rCpttc: q~;~e nou• n'avons janult dh A des provin(;CS que noos le 14an imJII)'Joru. nl A lu Sasbt~heqo. ni A 1:~ Noovd li.l-• E:cosse.. ni i l'll~u.Pr•nce·Edou.ard. Nous ~un<'ln~ P" le (a~rc, mais no.u uvon.s Jlli4: q11c ec ne Mr.att PiJI$ i l(a:ant.

2:28

IT,xt) M r. NylitrCI•! I am intcrated in. RlldiiiJ out, cbo.ah. wby

you have thlll d~ition bcCilijje there 1re a number of oche:r

thlnp in that c:hilnet tbut •~ bindint . Yw tnadc ch.at dc:ci·

tlotl. For e.umple. lilllJV'IC rit}lu arc bindina o.t the pro¥·

iaca; you. ft'llllde Wt dccbiocl. My, •-brn. il amc 10 Scctioe

I J 3 did )'QV mtolc tbe Opp.ll.lte decl$01l? In vie• ol tk llbtory

ot tbc- Liber11ol Party and all cbe recommendation• aolng befOt

to Pc:pin·RObllt,, back 10 Dill C·60-onc can quote whllt )'OU

arc saying i• DaiJ C-60----.why llaat cxcqMJoa? Here are the two

tliUQt Fr.a•~• m.iaorhics a. the C'O'Intty.

Mr. Ctu·tllt.fl: I am 1cllin,g ycu tlult we did M'l4 want to

impose it ~ the provlncca. lt you want I() lmpwc it on

Sukateb~n. make: a motion Ii.Jht away and that lt up to tbe

committee. Ye.- •re Utiftl me u the JOW:romeA1 why. ud I

•m tellina: you ttNt i.n 1971 tc:ftn Pf'O"inca .ere 'ltlll!ag eo bllld tbcmsclvu. and W\'1 were very plcucd. h i• OM of the

rcuuons why we say that h k ti r~?e to act ahead • •hh thit

projcc:L. bociiiUe in U1e laat 10 yc:aN we have bt the poJitic:al

• ill oil 0 ptOI'IIICCS to Wed I~ I• Sectiorl I ) ).

Now there 11 only, .-uh~nuarlly, New Brunswick who want'

10 do 'hat. Tht reu of the pro.-in«S •• • I do OOt ttn)tmbc:r the

nama of them. I dr.dlk MMitot. 11 that t.iak ••• aoc. dear bccl u.1t ot dto ptobkm ie dw «~U~t, b.t they were •lllilll 10

bind thc:msel\lu, whatever h •••· the. obhplion ie tllc cor.sti·

Ultion. I JU~II that there. w111 New Bruntwiok. Ont~rlo.. Nova

Sool&.. P.£.1. a!MI NewfouiMI.Iatld •• • •nd 11 was seven. Now we

ate down to only N~t~* 8tUPict .Who W&JJU to do lhat. SiDCe that time tbo COI.ltU bavc cbrir-=d the ailuatioft ol Maaitot.

and t~)' arc bound conuitullllnally bccaust- or wh.Jt was

d-ecldc:d in 1867.

Mr. Ny--stnt« AO lam talkma a~t t.crc. olcounc. are t.ht

f~t ptO'ri-""'· Nno lkun•wlclt, Ontario, QtKbec and Ma.nit~

be. In answer to the challcnae by the: minintr, we Intend to

move ' " amendment lau~r on to have Section I)) llppl)' to

thote (ogr prcwinca. My q~~Gtioo 10 llim is: why lw be POl

doM tklt? TM miaistct A)1 that n ·~ ~ pan o1 tk de!J. but I want to tllyto yoo.. Mt. Cll:tirma.n. that I biVc ltcrc with

me • copy or tbe memorandum that wn• 4tudied by tbe Fint

Minittc:n in September, clocumeat no. 80().1<4058, 11 is tbe

C'ttlf'1 o(lhe lq..l text ('l(lft(etnina the *" or the charter of ri.ahU... equfiulioa ud ot'f.lt.orc rao.reu. la dm tt.lt. oa

Ptae S, wbcn h coma to !ftngu:age rftbu, this it wllat tbt

(odcraJ gotwcrncmt was uylna;

The Stit\lte&. records ud journab o( tbe ksltlatu.rcs ol

Ol;tarlo. Qv<;bec. New IJn:li:S'I"itk llld Ma.aitoM shall be

printed and published ht Efl.tfula a11d Ftcoch.

Wlk.n we look ov-u on ()IJe 6 ~ find. • &ain, where it dtala

• itl1 Uac pt'C!Cttdi~ ill the CIOifrt:s., 21.2;

Eitber £nafq.h or F'tcllCb may~ utcd by any pc:t'IOit ir~.

or in M)' pkadina or (lt'()OC,SS in or b$uing f rom, any court

ln OnLario, Q-.eboc, New Sruoswkt or Manitcba,

(Tn..,-l.ath:Yr) M. Nynro.: J'almcul:t bial $11WOU pourtul po~tnpoi ~

nvu pnt ecuc decision, 1lor9 que voos le:ur lmJM*~ b•en

d'•uuc:s chotd daos cette <:hanc. V~•• IIVI-'2, par u~mple, dit

q1.1e k:s. droils l ing-ulilk{llcl dt'\'&icnt ~Ire resi)C(t61 p;~,r !ell

ptO'iUc:a. Po.~\loi abs. lanq_u'il •~&it de l'art•cle an, avc~s d«lclC tk ttc: pat l"it~P*'., Pwrquoe eeue u.apcioft

quand on c:on~idCrc la philoSO(lbtc du p!uti libCnl et IOOIQ kt

teCOif'lil'UlndatiOI\3 conl~n ll el dan~ lo fltl)pc.K't P~pin •Kubatu et

k Bill C~' Ce sont 11 en cfftt lcs dcu• plus ar1lli..c~ minorit~t

,,.~ d• pl)'$·

M. Olri t1tet: Jc v<ltls diJ umplcmen.t q-uc oou' lt'a'ION pu

vl.'lulu impotc~r cela aux prorin"'. Si ~CIUII •ouliezl'imp<.~!ler d la

Sa5kalchc.,.·an, pr<lpOSCt·le tout de " lite. c'Ciit V.\1 Cumil6 de

clk:ider. V0114 me delni!Wk.t. i moi, qui reprisente k aouveme­

ment. pCIUI'q'IOl DOll$ M ra'J'OO$ pa• fail et JC ~ ripOedl

qu'cn 1971, Jc.pc prcwincn itaient prhd a l'atce:pt.tt et que

11~11 c:n CtloM bien contents. C'ut unc du I"'IIORS pour

laqYdlec I'ICMII jug-tOM qu'1l est u:mp~ d'avaoo.:r, ear au C()UJII

4H di.l dctolffl:os aafllti.. ka db: pro.·inoes ont ptn!:u c:c:ctc

.-.,~: poliuq~tt c1t s'impolef ran:adc Ill.

Seul aujounl'hui I~ Nouveuu•Brun8wh:l: s"y d« lare pr~t.

l,;c:s auues provif\c:c:s ..• et jc n'ai piu• i la m61110ile tous lea

nom5. Je crou que le Mu hobe ne nv•lt pas. eiiOOte trop cc

~··d fen.it i au.sc cb ~ dfblttus par kt tnt..mlw..

mais 11 tttnbl•1t dispo~& .A rapcc:tcr l'obli.a;attOR q•e lt1u

tmposait lu tOnatiwti<ltl. Enlin 11 y •""'' stpt pro-AJ\c:c:s d jc. c:rolt que c'ttah le Nol.lVCIIII·Brunrwtck, I'Ontarlo, la Nc>u~l lo­

&o:s.e. l'llc-du· Pri.nee.a.-rd et Ture.Ncuvc. Alljourd'hul.

il o'y a pfw qiK k Now-.·cn• Bnlmwd. Dq!.if; Ion k:J

tribu~u ont klaii'C'i I• ••Uicatiotl d11 M:1.11it~a. qw.l at consU.

tul ionnc:llenlenl obfig6 de rcsptetet l'nr11elc: UJ en Yertu d'~;~nt

dOOiaioo de 1867,

M.. "'~)"Sirto~a: jt ae ,._rk li QliiC dei quae ~ qu.i

~1: le NOilvcsu·BtuM•tek. I'Ontario. k: Qtllbc:c et k M:aJ'ti­

tuba. Puisque h: m.inist,-. IIOQII 'J iO\oitC, I'OOUS ii VOM l'intc:ntiof'l

de: pro~r ph.IJ uud un smendc:.n'lenl Jtipul:ant que l'anicl~

IU s'appllq-.erait l CC!~ quatrc: prOYiJKC.:. Je lui ck12'1Snde

Nmplmlmt po&U'QIIOi i1 nc l'a ~ fill l•~mtmc! 11 dit q:u•il

n'cn a jam~~ fti ques:d011: Of, moas:iou k ~ j'ai ic:i k

tutc:. de la note de $<:tvic:c ttudiCc: fiar ki prcm iett mimstru en

teptcmbre, le dllc:ument n'' 800· 14058. 11 s'asit du texte Jesal

U>ucbaot la quC$lions de la clurtc: dct drolti., de ha !*'r6qua·

oo. n dct tuiOIIt'CC:$ •• larJC des ~ A la pqe S ck cc

t~te, ! pr<IJIOI da droitt hn.tui.stiq.C'JI. •oifi « q~te dtdare k

touvernemcnt f6dCr;ll:

Lee itatut;, compte• l't'-ndus d joum:luJ. d C$ l~tlement.s de

I"'at~:rio. d• Qulbec. du hoOII-vau·B.t-u•i••tlr: et d11

Muitobl $C:t01'1' 1mprtmb et fMibfia c:n. •lltb·• et c•

frtlnt;tll¥.

A nouveau, 6 !11 page 6 du ttxte an.Kiul•. a profl(ll des tribu·

UIU., :ll.l;

QuKloflque pou:rTlllit "tili$ct 1'2"'l:ab ou: k r,.~~pk et ~~e

falre servh daM l'une: OU I' autre I ;~,"IUC <f.allilli:llnbu.nau.x

de I'OI'IIIario, du. Qutbct. du. Nouvou·Brun)jwick ou du

Muito-..

Constitution du Cun.ada 2 :29

{Textl'l i bis '11'11$ alwa)'ll par1 ol the negotiating over the sununer. I hJye cheeked with SOme of tbc people invc.Mved in the negotia· tions on the side of the pr~inc:cs and tbey cOJliirm the Jamc thing: this was al,.'lly& there. All()( a sudden i1 "''11$ withdra•·n. Now why was this withdrawn but other thiop that arc bindins on the provinces noc withdrawn?

Mt. Oartdf~t: I am tcUing you that •·t uied to persuade as many provincu as po.i~iWe to bil)d them~elvcs by Scc1ion Ill, ud we were quite optimistic. We knew, and we stiU k:now, tbat Nt11o· Brultlwkk •-as willing to bind it'lelf, Ill() we •·ere alled upon to prepue a tc.'t in prcpe.r1.t.ion rorthat. We 'llo'Cre not &cure that Ontario \11'1111 willing or not v.·illing. We alwa)'$ uid In the debate tlu!t we "'·ere not to for,c it oo t~nybudy. B-ut "''C hod some indication., and it is $till tbc case witb Ne•· Bruruwick. that tbcy are willing to biJ1d thern~lves.

In tbt cquue of the tummer the Ontnrio sovernment s:tid that they were not interested. Of coum. we know that tbe rest of tbe g~>ernments who .. ~re Interested in 1911 tre no longer intererted, or \lire:, I do not know, but tbey Uvc not gi't'Cn U.'l An indication durin.a the summer.

Mr. Nystrom: Are )'OU not playing pol.itiu witb Mr. Davis?

Mr. Chrftlta: No. I am not. Tell me why in 1971 P.E.I. was willing but they ~re no longer willins. Tell me • ·hy NO'o'& ScotiJ •·•s willing in 1971 but they arc no longer willina. I did not question their •notlvatlon. Tbe same thing with Newfound· land. We hAd indicatiom; from them tbot they were no konger willing, The "me thing from Saskatcllewan, I guess. that they 'll'tte no lon,s.er willing.

Durin.r. tbc summer we teU;ed. Ontario bad DOl .a,jven any indkatioo that they "''tre 110t wiUing. So 'ol'e· pttpared texts to be ready, but I wtnt t.o muke the: point ~·cry clearly that \lit no point did we want to force- all tbe provinocs or a nun1bct or provinces on section 133. If it 4 the ~·i~ or the: omnmluc:e that Wl:· t hould bind C\'er)·body oa Section I H . •=e can ~"Oic on it, but lbt ,..aa not the. v1ew of the &ovenuncnt.. tbat we. should impok Uat on tll t he province,.

Mr. Nystro111: Otay. I tak~ the minister at his word tbc-.n. al)(f be ha.s made very cle;1r t.bat be d<.lcl$ not want to fOrce. t.htl tmpu:t or Seet.ion BJ on any pr~inoe. No"'' if he mCI!'It$ t hat, let us just turn this arotJ.nd. Supposlng Quebec. wants to be taken out of Section 133, and they make tbol rcquc:s.t to the federal government. wlll be accede to tbat request? Or if Manitoba "''l'IOU to be tc:mQ\•ed from tbe: $1rieturd or the Manitoba Act, will be acxx:dc to that request? He sa)"$, n.nd J quote him.: "I do not want to force thtt secdon on twyoDC in any provin";· If he is being that gC;t~<:rous with Onltrio. will be. do tbe same tiling f<w Quebec and tbc. s:une thing for Manitobol!

Mr. Cluitlfo: TbCtc- it a difference between what I call IIOquircd rish t:s omd new riahts. These right"' "'·ere cuahll~hed in the. coMtjtution long ago. Tbc.y lui\'C, by historical reasons, kind of diuppci1red in Mt~nitoba olons the road, bul they were. In the QOnstitutioo long before today. I think: that it is • ptineiple. in bw th.a1 before: you Uke avdlf acquired rights )'(ltl have to be: very c;a~ruJ, and they arc ri3hts that hove been

(Traduction) Cela a toujouts fa it par1ie des nCsociations de l'tt~, J 'ai v&if;b aupre~ de cutaiM des n~t,adateurs prO\'ind.;,ux. qui m: l'ont wnfirmC; il n'a jamo•i~ etC quc."'ti<>n de k:. retirer. Or. toot d 'un ooup, c'eu reti r~, Pourquoi retjrc-t-on eel a alott qu'on conti· n~ i impo$er d't~utres eh<~ :lux provinces?

M. Chrftitn: Jc rtpCte que DOUS on'On:s essa)'C de pcrtuad-er le plus grand no.mbte< possible de s'imposer cJic.s·m6n'IC$ I'arli· ele 133, et que nou~ C•i~.>nl$ rc.u& tn!.'l Oplimi&ctc~. No1.1s saYiOn$ et nous sa\'OM toujoon que le Nouve~~u-Urunswid: «I pftt i le tairc:. 11 noU3 a done fall u lllr~J'I:Irer unc tex.te :\ cct effct. NoiU n'ttions pas l.rop sUn de ha positic>n d15 l'Ont.nrio. Nou$ uvons toujours dlt au court du dtbat que nous n'aUions JliU !'imposer ;l telle ou telle pt'O'Vi.nct. Or, nou~ :wioos l 'irnprtt.dc:m, d oela demeure avoo le Nouve~u-Brun~wid:, <jue- 1~ provinoes«aicnt prCtct A se !'imposer elle.s:-mtmc.s.

Au cours de l'&e. le gou~etncmcnt de I'Ontnrio a db:larC que «Ill ne l'intln'llsait ~s. Nout sawxu bie.n ~Ur que let autres J<WCrncmc:nl$ qui Ct•icnt prCC$ j le rairc w 19'11 ne k sont plus aujourd'bui. ou du moins. ne nous ont p:u dit au cours de I'Ctt- <ju'il~ l'l:taient.

M. N)'Pr4.W: N'c:st-oc pelt un petit jcu p<llilique ;lteC M. Davia?

M . Ori:ti e~a: Non, i»$ du •(lut. PQurquc>i r ile·•.h.I·Prin'c.­~ard ~tait·elle d'aocotd en 197 1, mais ne I' est pfu.s avjour· d'bui, PQIIV(:I.•VOut me le dire? E1 la NOU\'Cil~·bse? Je ne mets pas leurs mocif~ en doC)Cite. C'c:st 12 mC.me c~ pour Terre.Ntuve. Cette province nous a dit que oela ne l'int6tesail pfu,, De mCme pour l.a ~~:katebewan, si jc. ne n)'3btl);e,

Au cours dt l'•hl:. oous avotis discute. L'Ontario n'avait pas enoote dit que 'ela ne l'intt res$11it plus. Nous avoo~ prCpnn~ des te-.xtes, .nais jamais nou5 n'avoos cu l'intention d 'imposer l'article 133 li toutes les ptO\•h!otS ou A cer1aln nombre de. provinoes.. Si ks mcmbtc:$ du C<>mite estin)Cnl par oc.>ntre que­noli$ deYQn$ !'imposer A tout le monde, voos poo~'CZ mcurc cctte proposition tu• ,.(llix, m:lls k: gouvemernent n':a piS jug~ dew>ir ~ fa ire,

M. N)stro•: 8ic:n, je prends k 1ninistre au mot, fl nffi!S a dit trl:t elaircroent qu'il n'a pq.s rintentioo d'im~er !'article 133 oux prc.winoes. S i <:'est vtai, ren\'eftiOJIS la proposilion. Suppo· soos que le Q\ICbcc ne ~e.u iiJc. plus hre lit par l':lrtide 133, 1t £00\'Cri\.CI.nent fM6ral vo+il noc:i:der il 5a rcquetc? SUflPIXSOM aussi que le M;lnitobd souhai1e se liberer de I'Ac•e du Mani· toln, le ministre l'acepte.n•·t ·ll? 11 nous dtel;&re: •Je r.c vcul imposer oet article A name provinc;c., S 'fl ~~ cellement gC~reu• avcc I'Ont:l rl(). en fcra+il :lutant J)(')ur le QuCbec et le Manitoba?

M. ChrC.tien: 11 y a une diffCrCllcc enuc les droits acquis et les nouvcaux droit~. Cc$ droil'l Ont Ct~ i:t3blis 1t."lns la C()nttitu· tiOo depui~ loogtemp$. Des raison~ historiques ont fait <lu'ils oot :l pcu prC$ dlspouu au Manit(lba. mais i!s it:li<:nt <l!ns la constituti()n depuis trCs longtemps. Aux tennes d 'un des princ:i· pe:s du droit, on $i:· dolt d'Ctre e.\trhnc.metlt ptudem avant de retirer des dtoiu aoquis, or il &c';&gi l Jl')Ur le QuCbc:c e! le

!.l ;;: JO~ _____________ .::c-u.=,·, ..... ,·,_,o~,_c,~,-=,_ ___________ ...:':..:·''·'910

)TtXI ) acquired In Quebec atld in ,_bnitoba. I do noc • ani to a.o bact on that. Now w·e h.lYe one more provlr.oe: thnt waniJ to bil'ld ll~~elf by Scc1ion I ll, it ii New llrun5wid.and l llpplaud them :.nd I h01:10 th11 t there will be ma ny more provlneca. 11 it not the view of I he JO'Ietnment that "''t should force the provinocs.. If h l.t t he Ylew ol 1hb C()mmittee, I • 'OUJd like to know.

l\lr. Ny\'trom: In other • ords. the a.nswe:r tO ~hnilobe. and Q~Nboc would be 110..

IIth. CI!Hftt« No. I do not want to lalc thole •C'4uirtd ri&hu (tOM d~ pcopk • 00 lu.~ tbtm.

Mr. Np;~tM~: B•t at the AJnC; OaK. )'Olt arc aoi"' to ub .omc ns,htt .-.,. (rod tk proriiiC.'u owr aome jurbdictlon they bvc tOI:by ud pu:t it iA the Nlldl ol lbc federal JOVcrnmetn.

Mr. Olrilin: Where? Mr. Ny.,trom: Whue? For exampl-e In propo~ Section 13

when )'OU u lk about language ri&hts u il a ffccu mlnorllltl. I am not dlupccln& netdsari.ly with that t ce11on, btiil )'04.1 MC calklnJ a bout ~akin• o po'o''Ct that flrO\•Inec• now h• vc and pl.acin,t~. it, ln th.it case, in the wurtt to determine where numbtflwarrant,

Mr. C'llrftle•: We bY<' tried in that not to •cqt.urc any fialu fot the (cdc·n l ~rn.ment, and we bavt ai'f'Cn the riJin• irt tile cdwcatioft f.dd to the c:h.i~ru of Canada. We Urc doM il . YeN ea• acxue aw: tNt we did Mt Jl) far ciiiOilJ,h i• *M lmp»S., Secdo. Ill Oil O.u.rio aad N'r- 8tv.M,.'d. I will taltc t~t cridckm. If ttx COIDIDittee wanu • to ImP~* S«\10111 IJJ Oft all lfle prori:nc:a or • 11-..nbtr cl pnMnc:o. pcnon~lt,. I wo.W not be embam~sscd. I j11~ say that the pctlltnclll u ld thst tbt:re '*<N tM I mud• we CIOUid do a t tba t time.

Mr. Ny•-trilfltl 111e PQI$ition or our patty lt thllt it abould a pply 10 the (our provincu where the minoritic:t ulat in the t rcltc.u nt.~mberJ.

Mr. Chr411rn: You are rrom Solllbtc.hi:'IIU. Wit)' do you not waJtl ll to apply to Suk.olt~.:bewan1

Mr. Nytrt6111: I! tbou.ld e~pply to the provlnotl where the minorlllct cxltt in tbc pcatd.t nu.inbttt.

Mr. c •rftlt'ltl ''" ... rifht Cot t"Vt:t')' c.tlotrn, why Call it IIOt apply eo y011r pn.rince?

Mr. N)"P,._ l lu"'= a.lteady mponclcd. ~fr. Clwftk« There il110 probkm irtbue il.o F~~

• ••so Mr. N)'MI'OIIl< I ha~e aJJUdy u id tbat "''e think lt should

a ppJy to lbt JN"'''inoes where you haYe t.he grt:llltlil numbct or minorltlu ,

I only ha~ abQut t,.'O minute• left aftd I want 10 1uk 11 coopJc mOfe (Juc.uions in another arca. I tuave b~Cln tofd by ICH!'IC: of I he OfficialS in lhe rcderal 80YCrnmenl that Onl: O( tiiCI continpncy plum che scn-crnment is worklna on it I he poa1bil· ity, lr )OU run into .some k gal pcoobtems w1th !he Pt'OI'OIIilkla be(o~ )W. ol dct:lari.nJ UDf, which it ll Ullilaletll.l dcc&.r11ion of i.ndcpcnck.cc.. I wonder if JOU can ttU "' a b.c mort about

I Trans/41/onl Manitoba de droits llCqt.~liJ Jc ne veux pu ~nir lil-dcto5UI, 11 y a maincen..nt une proviooe do plus qui \>CUI s'iiHJIOSCr e..-.t article 133, e'est lt Nou~eo.u -RrunAwi<:k , et Je ne 11eux q11c rel icilcr ocuc ptoYincc cl aphu que bitn d'au~re• ~~~ rcrotll a utanl. Toutefoi ... le aou~l.'.lnerne:nt n'estl!ne p:rs que fiOU5 puif.!lil.m$ impoeCI cdn llll lt provinces Si p.a1 oontre le Comit~ lc &ouhaice, qu' illc di" .

M . NJ~ A"ucmcl'lt dit, vout rlpondrit:t ~~:ulvetl'lttlt :l u.nc td lt reqlfile' d11 Multob>l a. du Quebec.

~t. Owitin: Ell cffu, je I'IC vca~t pu "'lim ks droits ~teq•n eta. k5 piO'riDc:a Ollilt ~teal

M . ~~ Ccla 1K 1'0U tmpldKn pu dt ~ certa.illt droiu 1 cuui.u prow"tnoel. JICIIU't la COfllla' n .,. • 't'Cmc:mc:ot ridC:n.L

M. Cbrftlr•: O.oJ q11d Clll1 M. N)'ilto•: Dan• quel au'! P11r c.u:mple, dald le projcl

d 'artkle 23, oU VOfol• l:llrle~ .Se• d ro111 hngui~ciquC$ des minori· t&. J~ ne dis pas que j~ ne 11ul~ ptr! d 'aooord, tn:rit \'OilS red~J. I! sux pt'OV!ncct un pouvolr qu'ellt~~ .:rnt i:t Wltl$ L"Onri·n 11 11 11 tribunau~ le soin de d~terrnlncr .U le oombrc petmct de cupcc· ter OC$ droits.

1\1, C•rfdt•: Jl DC t'a&h pili t!i d •oo.rOyct Ull drOit :111 80UV"t:t11t:mt:llt f~dfta l. fiMUI IJc cklf111er ;;tU.\ dtqycm <:.1n<td teo' k droit de d«ickr ea m•li-l:rt; d'ld..catiot'l. VOtill f!O'IYCl m'a!Qo <¥set de: ac pu avoir tll a.c:r. Ioift et f!c IIC' Jl'd aw:.ir 1~ I' ankle Ill 1 t'Oncario et au Nou:'f'e;;I•·Bna11511"id. c:t j~K~Cep~c bl critique. Si k Cotnrtf: w.t lmP*f ec:t utide Ill 1 *tci lcs J!f'O"'iDcu 011 i •• cuQift 110mtw & proniiCCS, od.a ne: me' ,gb!cra pas ptrtor.rwJ icmt~~t. Je dis Rmplcmc::nl q~~e le JOII''ef· nement a dCc:idC de rx pas faire davaotatc poor k momt-lll.

M. N)'Strolll: Notrc partl tlillme Que ee.la deYrait s'appbquc, aux quaere prvvinc:a u•i k1 n1inori1Cs ~<>nt le§ pl\15 fortes.

M. OvCiirtl: Vout '~nc:t. de la Salllttltcbewan. Pou.rquol ne voudricz-voos pas quo ~la •'aPflllque Ab S:t!lleltchewtln'!

M. N.Jstrom: Parcc que edit dc:v-rnlt s't~pflliquc.r aux. pr<rrln· cu qu1 oat kt pl•s lottct miAOrilb .

M. O.dtk•: SI c'ut un drott pour *' let c::itoycm.. poul· quoi eebl ne pcut•ilt'aJ191iquct i vocrc pr~?

M. I''~ J•ai de,. rfponctv M. Ordin: 11 ... , • pu de protMnk: s'il a'y • pas de

fraDQtis.

M. N)'Stro•: J'ai ~)I dit Qt.le I'IOUi cstimions que otla denil s'appUquer au pt(Wi.noc• ol) tes mnM>r1th illnl lcs plus rortc:t

11 ne me rcsle que deu.t: rtllnut~ ea j 'aurllil quelque:< ~uct· tioo~ :i p:r,!~~.:r d:nu un Butre clofnnine. Certains ronctionnairc• rtdt.raux m'ont dil qu'vn dct pill M d'urgcnee auquel travaille le tou~e:mtrntl'lt por1e "" ' lu. pottibil•ti de rairc une dCC"Il.ara• tion unibtCr;rle d'lndCpc11dam:e •i ~Ou.l renconttiez da p~t.­m« juridiqu~ tvcc: k projcl ac:t~l. Pourrk:t..vi)ll.1 nuu!l dooncr qud .;ucs dbaik sur ccttal.nt de ccs plouuT Je Q'Oi:s comprendrc

7-1 1-1 980 Cons-titution du Canad~ 2 : 31

(Tt'XIt! &Ome of the plant . I undc~tand th;1t 10me ol the people in t he J~.icc department are working on t hj$, I ha'<e bad it con· firmed by one-or two or tl1ecn. C;ln yOu c.tighten the <.:~>mmittec a bh?

Mr. Cbrhlen: Yoo hare bctler OOtmections. in the-depart· ment t.hs n I do.

Mr. McGratll: Maybe you sbou1d hire lan Stnith as s oons.uluwt.

Mr. C•rtritn: Maybe we Would ha\-e him on the payroll. Mr. McGrath?

Mr. NJ'M.rom: I wonder if fO"' oould oons:u.lt MK:bad Kirby.

Mr. Chritie• : l!:xcuse me? Mr. N}'Sti'Ofll: I wond er If you could consult Mlthsd KJtby,

or do wt-hll\'4:-to w:zit f<>r .tnotu Jc:ak.cd memu? Mr. Chritie• : We ba\'e some very alert and capable bureau­

etats around he.re who Jool: ill a lithe-:w81-es.. I would ju.u ay that I 11m nut w()rkin& on that proposition .,.

Mr. N)"trom: But that is one of tbe angles. Mr. c•rtli«J: ,. , because I am quite conlident that we have

a beuer s.cbe-mc.

Mr. Nystro•: What art- tbt ansles t hen that tht- bu.rcsu· erau arc working on?

Mr. Chrhiell: I do not kn()w. If yOu want to look at :~11 of the-~tibilili" we ctn fll&Ue about hypothetical question$ ad MU$eU.m. I just 53)' that it is not one of tbt considerations of tbt-problem r hAve in ftQn t of me.

By the wa)', because you il$kt:d " lot of quettion~ C}n Section I JJ. I " 'OI•Id like to inform )'OU that the list that was pre.sentcd to the fir.st ministers on tbt Friday whe-n all of tht finn ntl.nlsteti met " 'ith Mr. Trudau at 14 SuliSCx ~d been prepared by the Quebc:c govemmcnt. and Section 133 had been dropped by the Quebec t«n·ernment from th.atlist.

Mr. Nytlro•: I am refc:ITin,t. Mr. Chairman, 10 t.hc d()Cu· menti J'lf'O\'ided to t11e liut ministm at the conferenc.:e here bet•'CCII Septemb« 8 and Stpcember 12.

Mr. Cllrfdftl: I just want to d arlfy that about tht- list p.-esct~ted on beh~Jif ol ull t he provinc.:es, including th~ Province or Quebec. Tbe fi~t list we were aware of had Section 133, and "'ben that Ftiday came Mr. Levc9q_ut bad dropped Sec­tion Ill for Ontariq~nd New BruMwic.k.

Mr. Nystrom: I gatbcr my time is out. I would like to get back to UDI l:Ome more if I owld, t>ut perh;•ps in the next round.

The Joint Cluir•u (Swatot H.ays): Miss CampbeU. Miss C111pMD (South ww No,a): Thank you, Mr. Chair·

man. I '-~>"OUld like to ... -ekome t he. min~ter and his officlalt as the fint spe~~ken and $11)' bow pk:a.sed I am about, and look.inJ forward to. tbt repatrlatton ol tlte con.rtitutioo b3d: to Can.ad~. I rc:RIIy fe<:l I hat we 00 need it here in Cun<lda, ud the sooner we have it tbt woner that probl~m tall bt put to bed.

(T'taducti(m) qu'11u minis1<1re de In Justice on y tr01vaille. Un oo deux fooclion.n:ai.u me l'ont d 'ailleuu 001\firm~-. Pouui.e,._V(HU nou!l Ccl;1iru lii-dt!is.u:s?

M . (~hrit iet~ : V<luS avt .t de nw:il lctul: CQniJict.J que rtOf ou MinistCte.

M. MtCntl•: Pcut~tre d~·riet·\'OUS cmb:luthC~; hm Smith oommt <.:()n$dllc.r.

M . Ot,-f-tle•: Peut-~uc. en effet devrait-oo lt1 n!nwnther, monsieur MeGnuh.

M. NyJCtrom: Pwrricz.vous loutefoi$ oonsullcr Micbatl Kltb)·?

M. Ottitic:11: P<~rd()n? M. NylllfUII'I: Vous pouuicz pcu!~uc. oot~s.uher Mlchael

Kirby Qu no.a faut·il auendrc une 11utrl: fuite? M. Cllrfdtn: Nous avom des fonetionnaires. t.t~ inttiJi&eniJ

et trb t:1p11bles qui htudicnt t<ltltts lcs pos.<~ibili tCs.. Jc- pub $-implement \'0\I:S di re que pen~Qnnellement, je ne tr.&\'lliUC pas i ceue proJ)O!>itioo • ..

l\t. N}-stront: M a is c.' est unc des po.ssibilit&i. M. Cltrilitn: ... car je suis «.Main que notre formule est

meillture. 1\t, N.)'lltrom: Quellcs sont done les possibilit&: qu' l:tudlent

le!l fonctioonr~.ires'! M. (lmhie• : Jc n'cn uls ric.n. Si vous voulcr. cnvil3!t r

tOOIC$IC!i poss.ibilitt!i, on n'cn a p;l.{ fin i des qUC:$tions h)l'QthC. tiqucs. Je veux simplement vous dire que ce n•esl pas. un dts atpe<.:t$ du pmblt:mt que j'etudM:.

O'allleun:, pulsque YOU$ l'o'C2. po~ des 1.8$ ck c:, ue~:tions !lur )'article 133, jc vci~,as. sign.tle que l;a li ~te prtsentCe i M, Trudetu A l'oocasion de la r6union dcs premiers mis\istres tenuc le vendredi ;HI 24 Suss.::~ avail tt~ prCp.ari:c par le gouverocmc:nt du Qutbec qui avail lui•mCme ~~~ tombtr l'artlcle 133.

M. N)-ttroat: Jc parlt-. nloi, monsieur le prbidtat, des documc:nta fournis AUX premierS ministres q,u coun de b oonf6rcnoe tenuc entre le 8 et I 2 sep~embrc.

M. C·r~dt11: Je voulais &implement vous pr6eiser cda i1 prOf!OS de- la liste pr&eJH~t au ~Onl de toutcs. Ios pt()\Jilltts. lc­Q\Ieb« )' compris . L.'~~ort ic.:l c. I JJ figurnit dan5 la pn:mitrc li31e que. DOUS a\'Ot'ls vue.. et oe \'endredi, M. Uvcsq1.1c avtit lui· rmm-e $UJlSlrimC l';crti.:-Je Ill poor !'Ontario et 1.:. Noc~dlb· Brunswick.

M. Nystro,.: Je croi5 avoir C.pui~t nwn tcml)5 de perole. J'aimt rais pcut~trc au prochain tour tC'I'enit sur la d~dtratioo unilatCralc d'indCpcndancc.

l.11 eoprkidtnt (sin•teur lhy11): Made-mo~Sene Campbc:ll. Mlk Ca .. p!M:U (South Wc:~t No.-•): Merei, monsieur le

p1isldcnt. C'tst 1wec plaisit que nou~ acc~;~eillons le nlinistre et ses fonctfonnuitc$ cum me premierS ~~mo!ns. J 'ajou~tr;lill que-je suis. trCs imp:1tiente de voir not re c.omakution topatti6e. Je &ui~ O()tlvaineu~ que le pluJ 1~1 scr .. le-mieux.

l : J2

(Tt.rt) I am atad IG ue the cba.ncr of riJ.hll ud oquall~hi.JII. I

t ufli!OM ol pltlicular interest to my coru.thut:nU ue the fan· fU IIC riJhft. I :t:m ~urc tbe)' appreciate t.hc IUIUr2ftCCi lhtJ pt'O/)OIUII aive~~ to prole~ their language rlahta in the Province o( Nottll Scottfl, where I hii''C approximately 30 pa1 cent Acad/aRJ In my conuilucm:y.

I woold lib to a.o 10 proposed Section 41 , whkh bu bccn a concern or on(l(he:r tnetnbeJ on this comm1Ueo, Mr. 1-lc:ncf.c:r· ton, who rtiHd tt '" tbe HoQSe u well. Tb.atlll 1114 pr~u~ (or emr~~di"l t he COIUtitutiotl. o( Callada. ' " pe.rtkulat prc> poMd $(cdoe " l.(l)(b)(ii). I( you rftd tile c.tpbMIOf)' note k ,., dab iJ den..- (rom tbc VICtOria Clraatt«r P'ropaMd Sec· tioo -41.( I )f')(ii) says:

(ji) at btl IWO of the At.b..lltk ,......lieU thll lu.w., aec:ordlt~l to tbe tba~ lata~ &maal «.~~~'"'• rombi.ned pop.~Jatiottl of at kut fil\y per cent ol the pop,~lad011 ol all d1c Atlandc: provinoc::s . •.

11 mcnllont two provinces, bul they mu•t rcpmcnl r11 lcn11 SO per ctnl o( t he JXIPIII<ll ion of tbc Ada.ndc provlnoet.. I find t hat t hil would mean if P.E.I. wat one of the proYincc:t 'lll't would have to have at le.ut two other prowin<luln order to eo llnde.r t hit 1rnondina pri.IQCdvre. I am jun w<~ndcrin.J ir there IUls bee.n a.ny COt'ltideradon by the minbter th11t thl' lt an ~:rn11 perhlfll l n the Vlet.OI'il formula, and whether or !MIC we CliNid ao IHIC'Jt to the V«:toria f«tnu.b t.nd m~b h two proYinocu ratbcr tUn SO pet cet~L

• 14SS

Mr. O..rfllttt: Thlt is J~ probkm we U6 to cope ••th. that $1 ptt ec•t ol the popu;la.tiott. lt coma b.dt •'bta " caD: aboul ehanaiftl the. constitut ion, if tbue i1 a de~d)ock. by rc:fcttndllm, We thousht there •'OUld be .S 1 per ctnt o( the. P<lfiUIIIIo" in ttle (our regiot~t or Canad~. and it ~· oo.nie· qucntl1l to tl\11 that • ·c felt the same tbin& tbould arply there in propoiOd Sce1lon 4 1.

Mr. Hcnder.sot~ made. "\'Cry .ttrong reprfl4ent ll tlon to the PriMe MlnUter und mytdf i.n t.he cauc.u or tbc: pnny ud he waJ J\lppottcd by t he Ad anti-c members.. Thlt i• IOtncthlnJ we mia•c eorulder amendjnJ. lt miaht not tucetc:d but I would llkf: h CO be- cklb;lted, Some prem.lert o( the Atlandc ptcwinoes b;a,.. mcntloiiCd c.hat to me or to tbe Prime Mlllutcr. Mr. H•t(Jdd and Mr. Buc.ltanan m.eationcd lhat t.o me. ud i.n ahc lis hc olck nt1npca C1l a loc ot peoptc dut ,.-opokd S«tbt ~I (l)(tll)(n) be •mco6cd. -n WQU>W be open to a JIOIIf;lbk a.mnclnrwftt 1kre.

Ml• Ca•pMU (So.m West No-a)e l11 other wordt, it..ould prottct Prince F.d.,."'llrd blaDd in oot hl"lll.l 10 p looolt in& f<1t 1h"" provlnoc:a.

Mr. Cltr.Otltfl: Due what hu helped u1 too it tho aolid~ricy of nil the JIC'Ople rro.n the- Atla.nti<l pi'O'o'in~ on that lu ue, bci.'llt.IH CHIC rni,eht urauc it, you know, the popul.alion beina 110 small. In fact, the other prvvincc:s are wlllln;;; to mukc a conoeulon to recognitc: that probletn a nd I thunk tht Atlantk prowln«t ror helpina me in tb:u mauc.r.

7-11-1910

I T1111ttl~~ttiOtlt) Jc llli& per atllwn he .. rwM~- que 1'011 eonacre la eh.trte da

dtoiu et la ~rfq1u111011 MCl ~loc:te1•t5 $0nt pe.rticulitte:ment intbesKJ pur let droh~ hniJ,III ~tiqu cs.. Je s:11it ccrtaino qu'ib SOIII suisfaits d~ Sll.tllllliell que lflur uff~ J.:J; projet ~Uillll d 11 r~«tion dd droltli hntlnstl<tu~ en Nouvelle-&tossc. M1 cireorucription conlptc en\'ltl)la )0 p. lOll d" Ac;1dicru.

Je YOudrajs mainten11nt Jla_.er A l';artide 41, dont " dC.j~ p:trtc a '" Cfll&mbr~ M l lcncknon qui est ~aleltlC:IU n~emb~ d11 ComitE. 11 a'aait de I~ proea!:dur~: d"amcnckment ck 111 constitut~ dv. Cauda. Ci r-mndi.Cremco.t de $00,_11inta :ll ,(l) b)(ii).. Lu aa ca.plieatm pr&iic11a q-.e a::b -ncnt ck b Cbrtt de VK:tona. Le **•al!l'lia pt'OpQI5i 41,(1) b)(ii) lliplk cpe:;

(ii) au JM~.u ck41a. 6et- proriJIQCS de r Atlaotiquc <loot Ll pop&latM)II c:onfondoe rc.pri~1Ut, ~Oil le rt'!Otoliltmotnt gt-Mn.J k ph11 r6cult l Npoque., au muins SOp. 100 6c la popul11t1ot1 de l'ot:llW.mblc de ea provioocs . ..

On: dit deux ptO\'inoc' tnllli cdll doit rcprCsenler 1111 moin• ~ p. 100 de la f!OJ)Ill:uion d e:c pruYi•IOCS de I'Adontiquc. J'ai 1'impre.saion que ocla ~ltnlnc que si l'flc·du·Princt•EdOUiil'd Wit une de <lCJ provhM:ct , 11 fn aidr.~.\1 A"Vir 1&\.1 moin• dcu11 autrct pn.winw pQur <1ue c:cuc proc:Edure d'amcnde-ment s·a~ pliquc. Le Minj1tre n·a· t•ll ju•nab pen.1E que cda (lOUYIIi t Cttc: une errcuJ de la fOfi'IUdt de Vu,:wriA ea qu'if $Cfait mic:u.\ de la rivis.er et de stipulcr que 4ku\ ptovi.ncu wffuaic-n.t ptutUt q~oa sop. 1001

M. O..kld: CCl SI p. I 00 • la p;.p,~l.\tioo $081 •• probli:mc auquel now t¥0111 dl faite face. El si la rH'CirnK coRStiltltiooneJk a bolltit l une 1mpam et qu'on dic:Mk de fairc: u.n rERrtt~dum. k prob~me l't pot;e de nouvea~a. Nou.1 uio111 pc:ruC qu'il y aura1t 51 p. 100 de la pof)tllation daiU lc:s quatrc rCcioM du Canad11 et pnr tons&:juent que l<t m.Cmc dJOK t'appliqutralt :1 11 projct d 'arti<:lc 41.

M. Henderson a ln~l att 11\l llf~ll dlt pre•nic:r ministre et de mc>i·mC.me: pend.1n1 k eou<:u du Jlllrll et la dtputd de I'Atl;w• tiquc etaient de aon ~'lit, C'u t """ ehot;e que 1100$ poorrions cavita.gt:r ck modifid. Ccl.1 ne tcra peut-eue pus la torl1Uton m;~is oeb mUite d'ltrc dt'ICUtE. Certllins prcm~c:rs min11tra de$ ptOio'i~tea ck I'Atlalltlquc m' c." 011t Pilt!C 011 en ont p.a1~ t\1 prtmiu min.1$lrc. MM. ll•tf~kl et Bt~ebuara m'm. OrU pull d i! 1 • tdkmcat ck ac• q~al .wrak•• d.i.spos& i modt(ter k ptOjec d'artide 41(1).)(11),. 4•'•" a...X.at mtc pos.ltbk.

l\.llk C....pkD ($o.ltl WHt Neu): Allttcmtlll d1 t, OC Knth u.nc protc:ctioo pour l'he•dlt· Prince•t'sdQWird qui ~~·~uratt pu bcsoin de s'aliw•« de l'1prui de troe. provinces.

M. Chrftltu: Mab t:c q11i nou.s a aides fgalctl'letn, c'c•t I'C$prit de w!icl41ritE dont ont f11t prc:uvc 1-cs g.:n3 de$ l>rovmtc• de I'Atlantique p:11oe qu'()n poutrnit .si faeilunefll faire V1loir que l:t popul:nion tlJI t~ I!CU nombtcusc. Au oontr;ihc:, lcll a utrcs pn.winoc.t. sont p~e.t~ i ra1rc un~; <:C)nces;sion et a I"QCOO• naitrc eo ptobl~rtl~. Et )e rcrncrcie lea ptovinees de I'Atla ntiq\le dc. l';:udc qu·cuc, m'Qillllpportte dlm1 ~ 011.

1·11·1910"'-____________ _::C....:=::•::••::"""=.::""::.o:"'"'-""'---- 1: ))

(TI.A'tll'j MU. Cn1pMII ($Mtll Wa;t Nm-.): I have IUW)I!Jier question

to the m[niiltr ot his o(ficials. What is the dtfTc.rcnC'e btt.,..•cen "Parlillmc.nl'' and "JoYCrnme-nt 61 Canada" in c.hit proposed raohllion7 For instance, propoocd Scc:tlon J I.(Z) aayt: "Par· liflmcnt and the ao~trnment of Clln3dll .. , Wh.n1 arc )'(lu dl~tin · aul•hlna lhete bct..-'"n Parliu,_menl and the Oo~ctnn~nt of Canada? Are they tllo'Odi!rcrenl entities? Thlfl• new to me.

Mr. Ortrlm: Wbet1 you speaJ; about the Oot.<trtUft~t of Canada you "Pf:a.k about W uecudve, tbc: cabinc1, and Parlia· tnt~~l • •11ere )'91110 to the: cloctcd mcmbn't.. • ·bo 'lriU .. vc to UptCM Udt tit-'s witetl )'OU •1 )'011 roq•c:A the ntw of hr-.,.matl I am a mauber ol both.. 01 CO.tw. Parfiamcllt Jaduda lllc: Houe ol COIM'IOM a.ncltlrlc Scut•.

Arc: you hoappy, Sm:ucw Trem!!by!

Sc-~tater Trt••lay: Yes.

Mr. Chthie•: I hsve to k.ll ) 'OU. tllb b tho fiflt lime I have f1ccd a joint oommiltec, ( 11ppcarcd in (ront of llw: SeRAIC and I fl l>pcarcd 111 front of the H-ouac or CommUil1 committees n~.any, rn11ny llmu, but il Is che first tlnte I huve h;u! t.h~ plcuure or meelill.J botb Ho~ 11 che f.an\e cln~e,

St••t~ Trm~b-JaJ·: lt is a tood learnin.& uperfcnce for yuu theft.

Mr. C'lwitin: h lt •*• lime for me.. AJ't~ ll )<clrt, 11 Js abovt time.

s.-•• ~r. Ri&bL Ml» Cui .... U (Sour• West No'•): I do DOt; 1•ial I am

puiq O.C upfaaalioll.. Maybe I 6id liCK upllllll 1t propc:tly, IMH thcr~ is a dtrferr:nce tld••te:n. Parl~:ut~eat aMI Gorernmcnt or C.n:&da. you lnOIJ be a .,.,, ol lbc pcrnmcnt ud or Parltlmc.nt. but I aJway~ tool: Parliamenc to r..t~compan the CO¥trnmc.nl or C.nnda. You 11ce:m 10 be m>iklnJ a diatinc1ion here between the two, and you do ic (or t he lcJithuwrcs as: well. Y~ nl~ in I hill tubp:uagmph, ooly bind the Pnrlilutlt:lll and the (i(Wernmc.nt or Canadu, not !he provincu.

Mr. O.ri-tk•: There !t a diffl!rcr»ee be:twcen che u«;uttve of 1 l oYctl'lmeol aDd the k&i$1.alu_rc of • ~nOli or of C.Dada. We have lO Mlkt ... at distiac:tiOft. The JIOIII'C'f or the uoeulh•e now. (r.n Parl!.amc~~t., bl::t in te:mu tJI tile IC'tll&l v.ecadon. lk tcclllliQH ol ca.ecutioa. tltc:rc 15 a clirtcrcrtee. Of ClOilne. if the CMaliW cloel ~& that Patliamcftt ckJa DIM l&ttt" wkh )'OU cu t•row ouc tbe oent""- kt tile C.lcatlr¥e can llt:'fCr throw out Parliamalt.

MI.M Ca•JifNII (So••• Wut Nova): 1t teemed to me it was reduncbnt or there m\u~t han b"" lUIOihc.r n~eanina t-low· ever. I wlllnoc punue that. Perhaps I •illpMJit my tin~ to one of my oolle.aaua wlto misht like 10 puuue que.tloos.

• ISOO

T l•• J'""' ChAirm.n (St:t~t~to• tlaJ'fi}: Mr. Maeku~:y.

Mr. ~bchser: Mr. Cll.1irm.an, I am looldnt Ill che dock. and haviqan eflp.getl)etlt.afld one I thin\: chc mc:mbcra w-oukl

[Tt.ad"ct'o"l Mlk C.•pMjl (Shtb Wnt Not'll): J'ai d' aulrti quefiiNn.l j

poser au mintmc c. i ~ coll~&\le&. J}Jm cc pcojc.t de r6olu-· liqn, qud!e h i Ill dlrrt.r~:n4.:c c.nlre: .P;u1cmenlo e1 •!Ouvttnc· melll du Cnlla•.fll •'t PAr I!At•npk. le proje~ d'tMid~: .lL(l) I~Hie dt: .tc Parlcmcnt cl le go11vernctJ'ICI'It du Cnnadll•. Qu:lle dis•in..:tion fo.il e~ovouJ entre le P11rleml!.llt cl le 81>uverncll'ltnt d"U Ca11ada'! S'agil·il de deux cntit& diiTCre~~ t cs'! Je ne ~o~~il PI'• de quoi 11 s'a#iL

M. O rftit• : l.orique vou.s Jl'-rle:z du gouvcrncmelllt du Caoada, voot raile. alh~J.on au ~YOIJ exk:utif. e'm.j...clt~ k C.bcnct; le Patkmcnt, oe IOIM I~ rcpisleotar~ts lluti au...,tU 0. dcftal..te laif" opllao., Jc Qlil; IDCII\bn: de$ Me c:MIIb.. t~t. le Patkmo1 c:omprt:Od b. Chtmbrt des co.nu.· IIQ ft k Sir~&t.

Cell ¥OaS talnf•k, ~Uittlt Trc. .. blay?

lA sielllatr lrtfllWII): ()ru 1

M. C1trt1ic-n: Je dou YOO.J. d1re que e·cs:c I<& prer.n.iCrc (oil que }c cumparais devant un l."(lmitC mhte~ J'ai d6ji ootllf*OI

devanl des t:OII'UI~ll du S~nnt et dcv;~nl d~ conulh lk Ill Cb.llmbrc dei «111\IIIUIH:,, ttb s.:~uvenl. ma.is <:'eat 1.1 premi~re roil! (jue j';1l le fllnltilr tic rc.nconlh'J les membt'e~> des deux c:hambfes en m~me tempt.

Le siearwr l 'ru1hb): C'tst dooc uftt boone OCQII~ion d' il ppra~dre.

~L Owhk-•: Et cc t~'t:'l pa.t trop cOt. Au bouc de I) ••· 11 ita.h templ.

Le--~~ Tn-..W..}i O.i.

~tit c.....,. (s-t• Wnt :O.••·a): Je •'*i pu rim~ q•'on m'v.pliq.c kt clltola ct.trcme:ll. f'n.1-bf~ me -.jc maJ u.ptimee, m.la jc M ¥OiJ toujolln pa la difrinnce et~trt: le Pa.r!emctu et k pvcr~ttmcnt d• C.anada. ll c&l poufblc qu.c YOU$ ap~rte-nin A l/1 ron au aouvune:.men1 e:1 21:1 Parletnent, mlli' j'ftvais toojours cru que &e P•rkment comprena1t k gi)Uvcrnen)t:lll du Cnn1u.l.11, Voos stlt'lbln fairc une dil"linctlon entre lea deux cl vou11 ~tcmbJe;t fa ire la ~I'll~ dbtlnction pour let ltgist.atur~ . l)xn~ cc aou~11 linh, vou$ ne faitc~ allullon q1.1'au Parlc.menc et • 11 IOuvcrntmCrlt du C&nadn tt non ~~ aux provinc:a

M. O»-kie111: 11 u!Jtc une dUfCrcm:c entre le pouvllir c.:leu· ti( d'u.n goovcrnt:.~Mnt «.1 la lf:gi51ature cfune JWO";noe GU du Canada, Cette danlncti>CNI doh C1re faite. Le pou\'Oit de !'ut· C1ttif filii vicnt du l,_tkmeAI. mau lcs pauvolrt d'c.xkctlo. ~~ diu re~~~t robJd 4'11• diff&eucc.. E~. ti rcdaltif ran qudqvc clMIK 4•' ne pla.ll pts all PatfdMtt. il pclll tu~ rarrcnl """ a·u6cutif oe part ja~~~W~if I"CCn'rNtr le hrtemmt..

Milt C••fiNII (Soot• Wut hu••): J'avais l'imprcujon que vous rtpttiez dCUA (ohi ~ mtmc c.hosc OU bicn a.lon If dolt y •T<lflr unc 11111rc tllnt(~lltfo!L Quoi qu'il en &Oil, JC m'e-11 ticodrai lil. €t n~tifttCIUII\1, Je eCde Ill parole i l'un de met eol~guet.

Le OOJI'~~idc.t (lt lifnat"wr l-l•><t): Monsieur Mueka&ey.

M . M•<"kl•t-f! Moo~ieur k pr~idcnt, jc rc~rdc La pendule PArtt que jc dolt ~~.~~utc:r A u..: rCccplioo e11 l'bc.mneut de

2 : J4 Connitudon ->fC:uuda 7· 11·198()

(Te.nl appreciate .• to honour Theme Casgrain at the lady of the e\'Cninj!;, J~n invitatiOn I aoccph:d t~ome time- ~go tltld t ann•OC break. I have bWl weighing the possibility of pcrhnps pa.s:si"i untll Wt:dJtC:sdsy until I l1e:trd Mr. Ny.strom's eloquent plea for the extem.1ion of Sectioo IJJ of t he c;ons.titution to four pr<wlnces. Mr. Nys-1rom talked w:ry eloquently abo11t the tll:istc.nce o( Fren<:h·C11n~d ilt n minc>ri ti~ in thit country. But somctime~if I may say this, and I koow that people will not mifunder.sund my wo..ds-if there. is :wybody forgouc.n in this debate, and t hitl deb;•h: hil$ been going on fOf' 11omc time. it hM ~n another sizeable minority known as the E.nglisb-speaking Qucbeoc:N of tht't .:oot~ntry. pc<!plc who with few e...CcJ>tiontare wry basic peopk, who work on t he railway.s.. or ..-wk in tbe nor1h, or .,.,.Ofk by the. hour. who clean itr«a like :lnyody else., and •·bose history, ir )'911 look Ill i1 \'err ~~~ref1.11ly, h at~ been 11 positi\-c one in that province. I most remind members who think otherwise thill the. door1 of the bu.dne11.1 ootnmunlty thtl t were dosed on f'rc.nc:h..spc;tking Canadians on St. James Street "'·ere also c::losc:d to Verdun Irishmen or the St. loois Jewi$h ~ummunily.

Prejudil:e is 11<1C smnethlns th;ll is limited to b nguasc or anythina else. I h.we to make tbttt point because somebow in my COt)CCrf'l for this issue o~et the. last f~w y.:ars too 1'n:1ny ac::ndemie3, .too many intc.llc~o'ltll.'ll$-9.nd I um excluding politi· cians for the moment- have found a w::ry facile .• easy solution to our problem. that Quebec become totally uniUngu~lly French ~nd the rest hr C11n2d;a become totally unilinSl.l311y English. and somehow aU the problems will di:sappcar, t~ c::cord· ing to the academics of tbc gret~ ter Toronto :I I'd. 1 eun t~Julurc )'OU tlut wbcn thi11 h.aJli!CmS )'QU will have .separation. when yo11 have two sizabie sroo~ in this country cea11ing to conununi· cate spoot.aneou.sly, u we do. lt is imprnt~;~nt <&nd imper;~~tivc that the f renc-h langu~gc. be gh·en tot.al oppor111ni1y of cx.pand· ina and beini rocoanizcxl as an offkial language, not only i11 Quebec but across this eountry. ibi!l ill •·hy I wc.l,ome the Ul'l$elrts.h itltltud~ of Premier N11tfidd in New Brunswic::l: wbo understands th21 New Bnm.s"''ic::k, d~pite its obvious Utnjla· tlons ~ographicaUy and economkllll)·, i$ vibranl bcca~ it has .wmehow been able tO mcld thC$C 1wo grea1 whutC$, And that has been I he: c:~~p::rience in Quebec ror 11!1 long a11 I lh·td thcte~ which was a fong time~ One or the 1ru,gedie$ in recent )"CM$ is th11t SlC'Mtlchow in order to rcxl ress what were legitimate complaints in 1hut provin.;e, eomplaints whkh I sugge.u d id noc n~· from the cduc:uional i)'iltc.m bul (rum •he bl.l$incsll c:ommunily, the-Insensitivity or multinationals and i nset~sitivity of Canadian oorpor;~~tions, insen11iti"i1y !llil t wai reOeeted for in.stance in actual forbidding or the Frcn'h lafl$U&ge to be spoten in the ~WHkpl:aoe. These things ba"e betf'l tcctilicd. thank soo<~ncss , ani! it ma.kes Quebec 11 bo!utr Jiolace.

I must remind Mr. N)'!ltrom and othcn that if il were not for Section 133 •be riiJII of Engllsh-spo.'21ting Ca.mldh!ln* wh<) feilde In Quebec to be. hcsrd in tbc c:ourt ol Quebec in their own l angu~a,gc would be. SQmeihing "'ai"cd and di~appcartd :'1~

a result of cer1ain ptO\'isions of Bill 10 1. So the rctcnt.ion or Seetton 133 in Quebec io~ lmpcr;1ti\'C if the minorities in that province ure to $Urvh~.

f'l"ranslat!OII J Th<CrC:se Ca~gmin; mes coU~gues comp~ndro.1m que c'es.t une irwitation que j'ai actcptCc dcpuis longtCJnps, ~;~ne oblig;~li<)n :l. laq11cllc je ne ~oudr.1is po.s me sousHairc. J'av:1is e•wi~agC d'aucttdrc d mercrcdi pour pn:ndr(: l.'l !l"'role.. m;~~i~ j':ai chang.l: d'Avi$ loNque j':1i ef'lttndu M, Nystrom plaidcr twcc Cloq1.1cnoc I'~Jargissement ck l'artide IJJ de 1.:1 cons1itution d qu;nre pr<wince.. M . Nylitrom a pariC avec bcu~JtOIIP d'CI()(Juc.noc dc::; minoritCs c:.an<ldiennet rrsn~j:tiscs dans ce pa)'S<. 1\ his il C'it une minorit~t je suis f;CJtai n q~.t'<m ne se mCprcndm Jli.LS ~ur me$ poroles-qu'~m oublie trop souvent dans cc d~bat qui durc mainte.nanl depuis un a:t12in temp~. une minoritC impo.-1;\nte, celle det Qu~beoois anglopbones qui, it <1 ucJquu exceptions pr~. sont des citoycnt tr~s ~wdin~!ret qui trtw:tillc.nt pour les eheminll de. fet. qui travtillc.nt dans le Nord, qui tn:&v~~oillcnt ,·, l'be1.1re. qui nc:uo!ent les ruo!$ comme les nutrcs et doolle (lClssC dans ccue province '' CtC 1rC$ po.dtir. Jc do)i$ rapp .. o:le1 :i etux qui peurraieot penser le oonuaire que les port« de la commll· nautC des. uffairc:S, le~ JIOI1es de ltl rue St·J'noqu~ qui sont restCes fctmCcs IWX Cnnadienli frilnc:ophl.>nc.'l I'Qnt CtC i:B<t lt:• ment pour les lrlandais de Vctdun ou Jcs Juifs du quartier SI·Louis,

l.c:~~ pri:jug.l:s ue sont p:u une simple a fn1ire de Ltlngue. C'est une c:bose q11i doit etre dite car jc s:1i$ Que trc.>p Sl)ln-cnt, I~ universlt.akcs et les inteJicctuels-je fa is obl>tr,,c::tion des hommes pQiitiques JIOur l'in~ttlnt--Iui se ~ont lntCre~6t :1 ee probl~me par le prass6, onl trouvC unc wluthm ti'()JI f;u::ik i notre probt~me. cellc d'un Qu~bcc:: cxclusivcment unilingll(: fran~ais, le r~tc du C:tn11ds d~o..,'CO:tnt e.xclu~i,-trtlet\1 unllingu-c: anglais. On a trop .souvent \'U lil I<& $01utioo lie 101,1.$ lc11 probli:n!et dsns les cetcles univcr11it.aircs de Totonto. Jc pcux vou.s a.ssurcr que oe $Crllit L'l $Cp;u;ation inC.,•il2ihlt 1rni~~que n<luS aurtons deux groupe5 i.m.ponants <IUi ccsser;~~i<::nt de QC>mmuni· qu.er. 11 dl J»itt'IOrdlal de pennettrc 11 Ill lansue rrsno;aUe de $'Ctc.ndre c:t de s'impo$Cr CX)mnrc l.anguc <>.flicielle, non scu!o­mcnt au Qu6bcc mai$ dans tout le reste du JXl)'$• Pour oc:Uc: r;~~ison, !'attitude du prf:mier ministte du Nou..,cau· Btunswicl:. M. Hatfic:.Jd, me pnr.~il pilrliculi(rc:nwnt s.Wbeu~: ll <:01n· ptet~d que le Nouvcau·Bruns"'•ic::k, en d6pit d.; .ses limi t<uio~»

gOOgrAJ•hiques et kon001lques, 11 un r61e putic::uli~temc.nt dynamiql.le a j.ouc:r il Ciiii.ISC de I<& renc:untrc de: ()cj der,a gr;wdc.t cuhu.rcs. Bt le m~me pbCnom~nc c.xiste au Q11Cbec:. depuis q1.1e j'y 1\."J!)itc., c:'dt•d·dire depui!l rmt longteltlpS. L'unc d o!'ll trag~· dies de ces dcrn.iUe$ annCc:$., c'es..t la forme ~adc.>pl6c Pi" 12 t~llct~n. non pas au sc:in du syst~rnc &lucatif, mais au sein de L1 oommuntlut~- dell :~IYaires. Us tuultlnatioo:lld. les .«M.:i~t& canadienn« ont rait preu\'C d 'un m.1n<1ue de &cns.ibilitC co•ui· dt:rtlb!e en intcrdlsaru. pi•r e:~~emple, !'usage du fran~ais sur )e lieu de lntVAil. Criicc-AU del. ~o'Ctlc llituadon ell mainttttimt rcdrcs&te cc le Qutbec y a beauooup &<!BilC·

Je me pcrmcts de r~&ppeler :i M, Nystrom <tue ~~ 1'11t1idc IJJ n'cxl:,.tait Jldt, Jet Ctwadiens t~nglophones qui thidc-nl au Quebec perdru.ient parfois le droit d'Ctrc cntemdu$ ck:v:tnt ki tributttlUll du Quebec dans leur propre tangue ii ea~ de oc:r101in~ di&JI('ISitiOOll de- L'l toi 101. Pjr oonsCquent, il es• indi~pc11sable de conserver l'artide I JJ au QuCbec so1.1s pcine de voir d i!lpiu-ahre lei tninorit~ de. cette provino:e.

7·1 1·19'80 Consti lution du Ca11ada ~~~--------------------~~~~~~-------------------(Tuttj

Now ha\•ing .s3id Ibis. 1he. o!d adage that '"''<> •T<lMtl do 001 ma.l:e a right is very important bere. If il is impollant that the «<mmunity or Englisb-.speal:ing Qutbecers sun•h·t, it is obvi· ously important that Section I J) of the Briti$b Ne>r1.h America Act oontinue te> appty to a miootity that in numben are equal or Jreatet than rnost of the Atlantic (M't.wince1. Tile ll nsti10b· speaking community in Quebec: is 001 a small oommt1ni1y. but il is wrong to think they are aU millior\Bires. all J i~·ing, in Westmount a nd tbat they all Cll.n do things.. I t ;ln :a~urt: you that is not true. I happened to .sa)', and con1inue to repeal, that the rchJtioosbip bet'llo~ the English and Prtncb In Quell« should be an c.xtunpk to all of Camuln, itnd tbe c;on$till.llional cbang,t:~ that we propose $bouJd make it possible fot tUI jolt d t •i••rc. that rdalionsh.ip. that inu:rcommunic:uinn bt1wcen t.he English and French in Quebec; to have an oppor1un.it)' to nourlsh IIC;fO$$ C.nada.

• 1505

You are n()( going to jl.CI a .s..izcabk Frencb minority, Mr. Ny~lrom, in Sasl:atc.hewan. if you art unwilling to cJlte.nd to t hat proviDCe the. t)'pt ot p~·i11ions 1111d proccction thlal tbe tnlnorh.les should him: rc.s.ulting from $«lion 133.

I would re~c:M, Mr. Minis-ter, my bard questions for Wodi)Ciday. I wouJd like to know your phll~pby on free-dnm of choiot in tbe- field of edut;&tion. I would like to lmow your per$0nat feelins on the c:.xtcnsion or $«lion 133 ac.-oss Canada. I WQuld like to know answers to a foe or hard· question$ on 'll'hy t.hingure not in the-ch~rter th iU ~OOuld be. I think I know the answe1. I ilpptO\'ed or the resolulion or I would not be on the committee. Well. this ill true: thii it euctly what oommium are about, to inform the p~o~blic, not to .soore points ~'ith the opf!OSition, but through proper questionlng give the mi nister a ebanoc, at this tt.age at lea11t, to c:lucidt~tc and enunci<~te the: pllli0$0p.hy behind the biJI, and I s'"pect it is not to impose on the provinces anything, but to do the bareit minimum in the hope for some enlightenment on behalf of some of the premier$ uf those provinces.. who a~ as if they have a mandate which they do not ha\·t, to undcr$tltnd tbe nood, if th~ country i$ going to $urvi\·e, to extend the reality of tbe two rounding ifOUp.s right aero~ C.anada . Tl\ank )'01.1, Mr. C hairma n.

Mr. Chtetitn: I do not inow if I should eotnme.nt, but as Mr. Macbst)' hat menlioncd the minorit.)' problcm in Quebec, perha~ I calD inform t.he oommiuce t.hat i.n 1963, in n1y fil'llt elcaion. J oould not tay a. "'XIf'd 4f Engl i,s.h. lll11d a mec:tins for the English in OraDd' MCte a nd Mr. Mackasey came as tbe JUC$1 speaker and he managed to get $011'1e $0\id i(lri~ tn vote fot rne.

Mr. Macbs~y: And do nc>t forget that. Mr. C1uitic11:: I will never forget tha t. Br)'QC. But )'Ou know.

I mpc.Je the only promise I ever rna.de in tn)' polhlcal ca•nJ!dign. I said that ir )'W v()lc ror me and 1 am elcc.:tcd. I will be bilinsual. I still have a problem with rny aocet~t , but it is ooming, along.

1'11tt Joint Clla.lr•un (Stn:ator Hays): Mr. Epp.

(Trad'ucti011j Cel.l Ctant dit. le vieu;tt dicton qui vcut que ce. n'e!<t p.u en

aoou.mulant lcs t.orts qu'oo arrive~ a~r rai~on el(l particul.iC. rement im!X)ftant d;lns oe C;lll. En cfr(t, $i I' on juge importanle la survivanoc des Canadiens anglopbooC$. il est .!viden:ment important de. OOJlSener l'article 133 de I'Actc de I'Amtrique du Nord bri t<11nnique pour ~u~·e~rder ks droits d'unc. min~ ritC qui es.t auss.i nombreuse. si non plus. que la pi))KIIntion de 101 plup:lrt des ptO\'inces de I'Atlantique. l ;l CC>nununautC an:glo· pbQile du Qui:bec n'C$t p;•$ negligellble m~is. on a tort de JIMSCr qu'ib sont to'" millionnaird, qu'ib habitent IOU$ ;i We:;~tmount et qu'lls ont lOll$ du J!Ouvoir. Je Jle:ux rout <l.S~>urer que cc.n'est pas vrai. Je l'ai d Cjil d it. et le d is enooce, le& rcJatloot eJIIn!'-le$ anglophones et le5 rranoophones du Qua,ec dcvr11icnt 1ervir d'cl.emple a u rent- du CanJ~d;• et le$ ch<11ngemenu COt'IStitution­ncls que nous pt'Oposons dcvraic:nt pc;rmettte ! cettt j<rie de vl\'re, :\ eeue re.J;ttiosl execptioonelle qui edste entre loC$ an&)o. phone~ et IC<~ francophooC<~ au QuCbcc de 1;'C.tendre ~ de lletlrir dant tout le Canada .

Monsieur N)'S-1rom, ee n'cst pas c:n rerusant auJt n1inllrltet de- la Sa.dcatchc~an la protectl<ln dt l'artk,Je 133 que \'OI.l$ 11.s10urcrct dan~ cc:tte province 111 prC~~enee d'une importante minori tC francopbonc:.

Monsieur le mi nis.tre, jt \'Ous ~,_i tllefetedi mes qu.:sdonll les plus mkha.ntes, mals en attenda nt j'aimerait $11volr cc que \'OU;S pcn$Q: de la libert~ de cboix d11n3 k doltUiine de l'Muca· lion. J 'aime,_is sa\'oir queUe C$( votre opinion pc;rsonnd le- a.u $ujea de la pll'ltibd li t ~ d'Cttndrt au retlt du Can(ldll lc.s d ispo,s._ lions de \'article 133. J'tli bestucoup d'autn:~> questions i voos poser au sujet de ehoscs qui devraicnt figurer dan.1 \.a Ch~rte et qui n'y ligure:nt pas. Je CTOii eon.nailrt les ri:ponse~~ . Si je n'avajs pas appr<X~\'i: la rC$olution. je De rerais pat pattie du CornitC. Tout oela C3t vraL C'est prki&Cnw:ot :\ «:1 >~ que :;c:rvcnt k~ comitC:s, il:~ S(lnl I~ pou r informer le public d non pas pour se battf'i'e en duel avec: \'opposition. Us. sont M pour pern1eUre-au mlnlstrt, Jlt'lr les qvettloos pos&:,;, d'~luirci r et d'Cnoocer la rai:son d 'itre du biiJ, n(lfl pa.s pour imposer cettaines c-hO$tS aux provinces. 'mais pour e~ll)'tr d'lncalqucr C:C:Stlti.ne5 nQ4i()l\$ 1 certain$ prC:Inkrll mirl i!.tfe$ prO'I•inciallll qui scmWct~t s'approprM:t des pouvoi r,s. qu'iJs. ne devralem pas a~<Oir. 11 ~ ll(ll.'lt IJ pour leur tllpliquer l'imporuncc des deux 3 f0Upe$ fond.1lei;IT$ p(Mif bl $un•i\•an~ de l'c:J1Sell1bJC: du Ca nada. Merci. n1oll$ieur le prCsideot.

M . Cbrhlt• : le ne sais. pas. si je dois vous r~pondre., ma.is pui~ue M. ]\hck .. ~.:y a p;lr* du prot!U:n~ de;, minoritC:s ~u Quebec. je me pcrmeurai de YOU$ roppcler qu'en 1963. la. JWC:mi.:re foi~ que j'al CtC f lu, je ne. uvais pas un mot d'anglais.. Unc: reunion avnil CtC (lrganisCc: p<)ur le.s an,_Jopbone.s de Grand·M~a~ e~ M . Maokasey qu.i auis.tail ~ CClte reunion ~ tilrc d 'oratcur invit! avait ~U:$SI ~ 0Clt'IV3Incrc ccrt.iiJns Toriu inCbranlable.s de vot« poc~r moi.

M. Maekaser. N'allez pa51'oubl jer, M. Chretitll: Je ne l'oubfie,;li jllm;1is, 81)'(:e. M a is vous le

sa vel, j'av11is rai t a J'Cpoque la scule promes:se Cloctort~ le que. j'aie jamnis f., itc, et j'avait dh: Si mus votet pour n)()i Cl si je suis ~tu . je devicndraJ bilingue. J'ai toqjour.s. un probiCme d';ecr:ent, ma it je-!ab det pt'Q&th.

Lt ( Oprhif(nl (Le M:ltilltc:ur H11ys): Monsieur Epp.

2 : J6

(Tul) Mr. t!p,:Tb.nt you:, Mr. Chlirmu. I ~outct l1ke 10 address

a number or Qucsti<IIU in IM) :trnfi 10 the mlniucr One " tbc l)ria~h role in the procc5:S of arMilllmcnt ol the BritHh Nottb America AC1 and. secondly. tef« spccifknlly to the amendin& (Ofmula,

8c:f<»c I slo.rt, I want to indKaHc 1(1 ,)'OU. M r. Minister, as I htYe d«<e before .. that I believe. and member• or~' party art of the li1m view, that l~ :anomaly that now u,ists. tb11t 11mcnd~mnu must be finalized in Westmlr"tc:r, that ptactiooe ihould be brou,&ht to a quiek t11d and all ame11dmeot5 sb<Mitd be made ill C.Ra41. I abin.k that h. tenerally a,atccd. aot on.ly arouftd 1lilk table hit also Wt:luJ)tout t.be cavnuy.

U-a•iftt aakl tbl. 1\ f r. ~lit~iutt, tlw pocaa .-c arc now ~~red ia doe$ raise 10me Kriou qMJttoM u 10 lftda.odoil> 11 I tm '"n )'011 are a•a~ tlaat in: Britain rialu now tflcrc is • am• de~J or disqll-ic:t lllon.a the lines the IO'J(:rnm('llt bat pr<IJIO!Icd. that lbOC. only d i1 1Jkin1 for pittrhation and an amcndint fonnula b1H addldonally b u k ln.a Weslmir.s~er to mdc d 1anles to the c:oMtit~;~ tion before h ,., If I cae use tbe coUoquilall•m. returned to Canad~.

The M inister ol Ttan.sport in his apecch In the l luulli:­•ererrcd to con11tndon. that h '1''!1 due. tO convention we hiid not been able to end lbe manner in ••hieh che confOtltutiotl is ar!knded. that 'o\oC had to so to BrittJn ftw nul amendment•. But your IOYemmcot is oow .ask:ina 8 rit1Jn to diu~ CIOftl"tJtd~.

• ISIO

To put IIYI into C!Oiltat. Mr. Chnmal'l-, duow.p 1011 to lhe miJIIit'tcr. ooe niaJtc c.bed; wbl;c hu '"-" .takt ,. IJti&atn. ud I uft.t, for ua.m.ple. eo COIU.tltt41lt>Nll AnrtiHIIM'41 ltt C•nada by r..J <Xrin-lajoic, who I think is known to ~me or tn. He 1'4fcrs. (~ innanc:e, in bU wrici~ on. p.J c 82 tO tbe Cl!Je In 1906-1901 In wh..leh an amendment was lbtplle.rdc:d throuJb Wat.nin11c:r by the Ri&lH Non. Win•ton C hurchill, at whkb tlmo the point wu made the British CoolumbiP opl)(llltd the. amt11dme.nt btll that the Dotnlnion lW+'t rnmc:nt nOO the other provirklCI of lhat d.atc bud upproved the tl!nendn~tu. And whtl• tbe lmpc:ril,l go<Ytrnment accepted nbe arncn.Smcnt, the debate a t that t ime weot u foliO'tlo•s., a!WI J am ooly aoinl to rud OM: C)ClCfpt rrorn tbt lon1 diMUUdOft, 'Ahlc:ll l lmaCiM )'011 have u 'A-d], Mr. Minister.

Spcdi111 iA the HQU$(,. J.h. Chvrdaill•ld•

.. , "01 IM other bud, lie • -o.ld be "'7 tony al1t ·~ tbowiallc dl:lt t.k aaioa •--wet. Hll Mlljcst)''.t ~nt a..d ckddcd to tltk-.e- tneaAI tMt thoo)' ll.ld dtddiCd to ClLiblu.h u a precedent tlsat wlten~r lhcrc it 11 dalru· eMot 01t a oonstitutiotl3l queshon. bctwectl lbe fcdcr~J Oovur~mcnt 11nd one ol the provin<ciJ, thoo fmpetlal Gov· t mmcnt wo111d ah~\1)'$ be ptc:pared t(l ucc:cpl tbe federal point (J( view u agaiMt tbe prOvinchd,

Additionally, Mr. Chairman, in Dritnin 111 the prc$tlnt time, •• tbc ntln1ster koows. there is l'l romn1ittec, whith i1 now COint tO hoW pu~k rneedn&l, ()lllmittlnJ tthc ptOpo8ed n:toha· tloll. As well. I am s.~re tbc: min.i1ter l1 awtne tbal the c:ommittoe hat alrtady s-tudied the famo-..1 lui:Cid doeutnetat ~ 4ubbcd lbc Kirb)' doollm~t. aiMithcre I• a fair amount ol cliMallt«:t abotit the rd'trdKleliO Britai• la t.hat doeument.

l·IH9SO --[TnJMiatlt~~t)

M . [fpc: Mcm, momicur k priltdetlt. J'ai plusk•n qMI· tio.u d poser au \i ln~trc d;aM dt•A dom.1incs. O't~ne part, le r61c ck I~ (irtlndc·Brctafne duiU le J)rOCessus d'amc:nct.cmclll de I'Actc de I'ArnCrlquc du Nord brit;anniqut: +::1. en deud~nM! lie~;~,lta rormut.c d'atncntlcmcnt prop~mt:nl dice.

Avant de oomrncneer, jo~~ 1'•1 Mjd dlt. monsieur le minlltro, et d'auuu memllre11 de rnon parti l'~.>nt dil ~11 lcment, 111 ph•• grunde .anomalle ac.,uellc.tn~nt. c'est l t~ r.Ccc:5'ltC. de demander l WcumiMitf l'•utorilfl tion de r&ire de:~: amtll<kmenu •• ccla d.on ~le plul rtpickmttll flOiilltble. il rut l!bsolumttll qr..c nGUI puiss.ioN, rairfi ~ lf'MI'<It.mmts ... Ca.nada. CCA Uti prillldpe ~kmmt t'CCOil""· pu IQiiemeat ta. nu.is du" tOIIt ae CauQ.

Ceb diL, mo.ialr le tninut•~ ftOIIS ....s a-no. •ett•dleo mctlt i de JRVCI PfoWtnCS de mitt.odoriOgic. VOUI dcvtz. avolr qu"n'l Gr.ncle-lttUIIDC l rttcwe act~dle, lc:s proplll­tioos d:u !<JUWtnt.mcllt pnm,~quv.t de g,r:t~ inq\l:iicuda. Non scul«nc:ttt oo r6clame k ropatricmcnt et une fotmule d '.amendement, malt on demllinde ~lemcnt i Wcsllninilcr d'effo;tu-er dd ch:anaetncnll I la Conuhution avnnt le retour, t l voUJ me pcrmcttc1.. 1'u.prc:S&ion. de \:clle·ci ~~~ Can11da.

Dans son ditoe:ount devant la Chambre. le minit lr-e del Trunsportt a puU de OOofl''entM:m$, a :tllt ibuC au,; oon~nti<1nt k: (ajt que 001.11 d1.1utonJ nuuJ adruser ;'a be Gnudo-Bret&.JI.IIC pou..r obtenlr des atnc.ndcmtnts. Mais volrc gcJUn:mcrnet~ t

demande msirUt:nafll l la Gr~i)(k•lktta'~ de ch&l'l&ct oct

ooovcetionl.

Pollr bit.• a)mll«adrc- le pn;ti:IK!IIX b.s too CC~MCXtc, ~ sln.r k ptbidc1U. il f.-udtth pnt-tue alkr JOlt a- qui a Id d11 en Gr2nde>-8K"t&llk• ac tf(Crcr, pat t.\cmpl~ d t'ovn•tc ·I'Amcftdemenl c:outilutloclnd •• Canadb de- Paul GMil· Lsjoie que ec:rtailu d'cntre nous eonnai»ent. 11 r;~~ppclle. par excmplc, l 'nme~mt.llt de 1906·1901 que k: trCs hOflorablc Wirunon Chur.;:hilt •v~ll !ah adoptu Pi~' Wts:tminstcr: en OOI.Jr! de pi"'CCdure, un t 'Cialt apc((Ju que la Colom&,;e. tlrltan· nique x'oppoeoalt tl oet amc.ndeme.nt nlllit que le 80U\'t.tncm1:nt du Oomjnion et Ice ltUitel protJi~WCS qui exisu.icnt ft l'~fiOCIUC J'approuvaiem Le aouvc.mc.rnc.nl lmphi.al a«ql4ait t'umeawie· mc:nt ~. PQIU I ¥(Mal donncr uDC kl« du deb:u. je vait vora C'itc.r un pt.SRte d'une tonJ1,11• dit&trtatiun que \'QIIll deve2 ooonatt~.

monsi.tu:r le M hUtttt. Pa.rta..at deva1n la Chamtn. M. C'bwdlill avait dit:

... .. d"autre .-n. iiHro~ at rqm.&abkc;K .. potiCioft aclopo tee p,ar k pYCntemmt tk s.a \bJCSli dus k c:u pchmt ""- un prCcCcknl Ci CI'I'Oft Cfl 6Cd• ise q" duque rGi& qu'u.nc QUdtiofl COI'ISili•IJOn.ndk rets robje:t d'u-n cfi(f'f. rend entre le '""~rncment r6dCr;~~f et l'une- de-s proviMn. k gouvcrnemcnt lmpCri•l kt.ll coujours di~ a$.: ralllcr :'lU poitlt de vue r~d~rlll contrc ruulotht ptovincialc.

U Mini~tte 1111h ~lb lcmcnt, rnO•~:Sicur le prC~ident, qu'un comitC vient d'~tre formC en Grande· llrctagoo e-t qu'll kt.ll

charge de tenir de~ audlcnOCJ publlqucs et d 'it\ldicr ce projtt de rC~Iut iatt. le, Mlniilrc doit &a voir Cs:den1elt t que cc comitt a dCji Ctud;t le r~ lnCIIll dOC\UI'ICflt Kjrby ec q...e les re.re~nctfl' la Grande·Brt:t•&ne contcnua dan• « doe.un('Jit OGt Pf'OVOCl~ ll·bu de p~ anquiitudc:a.

Con~ti tutioa du Canada 2 : 37

rruteJ I "''OUld like to ;1.sk tbe minister this quc~tion: Does he feel

that. because or com'tntioo and pr«t:denoe, WC$trnin~ter i$ bound to aceep~ the joint ;rcWJ'e$s and the resolution as framed io the proposed rewlution before us. or do they ha~ the abllhy to cltan~ the rcsolution:uthey see fit!

Mr. C'Jiritiflt: The shoft an.1•-c:r b tfmt they arc lxlond for $Ure lcslllly.

I would like-to nu~J:e • few tomments •bout the refetwce io Mr. O&in·Lajoie's book to Winstotl Churchill In 1907. The statement of Mr. Churchill ill in 1907 und he .spe~lts about the Jmpe:tial OoYc.rnment o( En.JiaDd, The Imperial Govetl\ment or EnJiand "''liS dismantled. IY'IOrt 01 leu. in 11)28 In that text. and Mr. Chur-chill at th:H time: w11:s the Sec:ret.1ry of t11c Coloon'cs. I do not think we consider Canada, not since 1928 or 1931, a tolon)· of England any more~ He. wu referin.s, to :1

situation "''htre ll wu a c»lony in relatiQo11 to England, a.nd stnoe 11)28 and 19JI Ibis has di5appcared. So I am teJfing )'OU now that tbe c::on~-cntioas have . . . .

What is a oonventiOn'! I think the q11estion i.s t he differeooe bet'iio-c:cn ha..-· and c::onvc:ntion. A oonveotion does not bind the ~mment bclote the coons. A corwe~r tlon Is a poJitkal con"tntion and all the OOnYentiOn5 in rd11tiQfl IQ Corn.1d11 and Great Britain, or ~·en the conYentioru of Great Britain in relation eo the oc.her former colonies., have ch.anged constantly.

Perhap!l l ~bould refer c11e bon. member to what "''aS said on July 25, J979 by Lord Treff G-aro in the Houu (){ Lorcb on behalf of the. 80\'trnment. h ts ;1 lung tcltl and I do not ki\Q'W if I should rc:ad i t. but perhaps it will be useful fot the eommiHee at this &~aJe to express the view of tboe British !M'trnmetrt :u tHat«< in tbc House of l..<lc-dt bM yur:

Tile Statute of We.umiru.ter reserve$ to the United Kin8· dom Parliament a purely tecflnk::~ l role. in ~lation to the 8ritisl1 North AmeriQ. Ac:(.

I must, therefore, enlphasise 2811in to the House that the United Kingdorn l~ll rli.:~menf~ power OYer the C3nadi· an Corutitution i.s ~.ril;dy limited. Jr Parliamwt were.. in $pitc of constitutional proeedetrl, to decline to act on a reque.s.t from the Canadt.orn G-0\>ernment. we "''OUid lay ouru h-es open to c:barges of interfcrenoc in Canadian domestic poli tiC$. E~'en to query whether there wu lntcr­n.a1 supJ)()rt in Cotn;r~ for a reque.st to portriate the ootlttitution would be tantamount to questioning the a u· thority of the Canadi:ln Pl!rliJ~mcnt Or Gcwernmc:nt to make it. Further, (()I the United Kingdom Parliament lo purport to legislate otherwise. than at tbe request and with the oonscnt of thoe Cienlldiun Government wot~ld oonflkt with t.he ;rgrcc:mcnts reached with the Oomioions at the Imperial Conference of 1930 :and tht Statute of Wtsln'lln· ster of 1931, to which I luwe already referred. l 'be F'edcn.l GO'I·ernment is the sole repreuntati~e of Canada in international reladoru. We ~nnot be the ;~tbitcr~ of the c::orroot ~lance of ~he case pre~iented to 1.1$: this musl be the sole responsibility of the. Cln.adi;1n Gcwernmtnt.

I do think th;rt le~lly "''tare completely right to do what "''t are doins because the Canadian ocwrstitution is a British Jaw, aoo what we :tre doing <~I this moment, both House$. the

I Trodau:ti<Ntl Et je. po6C· ce.nc question au Ministre: t:o)mplc tell! de.s

eon\'Cnltons et des prCci:denl$, pcn$e~t ·il que Wes.tminstc: sett~ force d'aoccpcer I'AdiC$SC et la rtsoluti-on SIOt!S 1:• forn:e du projet que nc)u$ tl\'011$ wu~ k:s )'euA, ou bien pourt<fH·ils modifier eette r&olulion ownmc: il:s l'<:ntCJidcnt1

M . Clllrtritn.: 1.£pkment pu lant, ils sc-ront fords de !'accepter.

Je. \'Oudrai3 rt1-·cnir A la ~f&eoce au djscour.~ de Win.~ton Churchill en 1907 dans k: u~·re de M. Oirin·l..1joic. La dCcla!'1tion de M . Chun:hill d:lle de 1907 et iJ parle du goll''trnement imperial de I'Angleterrc. Le too'-crrcmcnt impeti;al de. I'An&lctetrt :1 ctf$~. d'eJtister vcn; 1928 et i I'Cpoque, M. Churchill Ctait secri:taire des colonies. Je pensc que depuis 1928 ou au .noins depui~ 193 1, nous ne OOn!!.id~roos

plus le Canl!d::t oomme une ooJonk de I'An.sletcrre. H PJrlait d 'une situaticm oU nw11 Ct.il)n$ uno colunie de I'Ang.lctctte. mais dcpuis 1928 et 1931, cela n'est plus, Par oonsiiqucnt let OC)nventioos ont . . .

Qu'es-H.:e q11'une eom-cntM.ln? Je crois q11 'il fa ut se demander queUe e~t la differcooe entre le droit et la ootlvtndon.. Une. O(lflvention ne lie pas le ,otwerntrl'l~rll devant I~ lri iMJn;u,lll.. UDC eom·endon est un instrument politique et toutes les con· vcntions- reJati\•e& au Canada et il la Grande·Breta~ .• et mfmt ocUcs q11l l iaj~l la Gr:tnde· Bretagne- i ~c::; 11111t re$ ;tncicnncs colonic$, n'crnt cc~e. d'b'6fuer.

Pwt~tre pourrais-jc l'OUS rappcleor oe <1ue Lord TrcffGarn a d~lare devtwt la Chambtc. des lords au oorn de gotiYcrnc• mc:nt le 2$ ju111ct 1979. C'e~t un texte t.r.:S Ions et je ne sais pas sj je pwx le lire. n)ais oc texte qtli e.~~primc l'opiniotl du g<IUvet1lerl'lenl btit:lnnlquc tclle. <ju'exprim~e de\':lnt b Cbsm· bre de5 1Qrd$1'annCc dcmii:rc: devrait Ctrt utile nu CQffliti:,

Le~ Statuts de Westminster rCserYent a u Pnrlemertl d11 Ro)'ttume-Uni un r61e- purentent teeh.nique potrr c:e q1.1i ~~ de !'Act<: de I'AmCrique du Nord britannique.

Jc. doi:s done rCpCter A la Cbaml:ne q11e le potwoiJ du P;utcment du Roy:aume-Uni sur la corutitution Qnt~.•

dienne est sC~rcment limitC.. Si en di:pit de pt'~o6de.nts oonstltutionnels, le Parlen)cnt d6tidait de refuler la demundc du S<>uvtrncment Cln:ldicn., (In pourft' it n<>U$ accuser d'ingtrcnce dans la politiquc intCrieure cana· dlenne. Le .seul fail de demander si le rapat.kmcnt de. la to~litutinn j(luit d'un certain soutietr au Cun;uiJ~ r<"·ien-­drait il rcmettre en cause le pouYni.r du Parlement et du g<ltlrtrnernent ~ proc&lc-.r a ce rapatriement. De i)lus, si le P.trlement t>Tilltnnique n•aceedalt pi$ aux derrul)des iotroduitcs PQr le jouvernement c:anadieo, oc serail con· t rnirc~ :~ ux a«'<Wd~ oot~clus tl\'tC ks dofninian~ lol"$ de la ConfCrenoc impCriakde 19JO uinlSi qu'.au Statut de WC$t· min.tter de J9JI que j 'ai dfJil ~~oqut.. Le touverntmetlt fCdi:r;ll 1:$t !'unique. rcprC'tetrtant du Can.ada ltU pl ;~~n des relations inteornationak~. Noos ne JXI'IYOfiS pas jooer le rOle d'arbl tre pout jugcr du cas qui nous a ~te $0Umls, cc rOle i.neomb11nt cxdu$ivement 1111 gonYc.tntnM:nt e:anadien.

Du pl)int de vue jurldique, rM>I re J!Q.'!IIiqn est inauaquablc, la constitution eanadienne Ctant une Joi britannique, et le SCnat cl la Chumlwc dt$ conrmunes du C11t1ada Ont ~mls une

z "' -------(Tol) Sctlatc a~ the HOU$ of Commo~ of C.~~<td:.. u. pta)t-.g H« Mtjaty to '•Y i.n lrO!tl oltM: P2tlianwnt or Enaland. CCrtllll pH..- O( legislation for them to kJWIIIC, So lcJIIIIy it is the Brillth P:.tll.:une111 ._,bo will decide, noc '"' In my judgm~t~~t, leaully they <XK•Id ckclde n<X 10 act. I do not thmk they will do that lr I read tbanc,a,l. But it is why we '~''n!ll tO /KIIrlat~ the cOtllllhlltion in C;m.ltda, because we nrc one o tbc K\'tn powers ol the workJ and •·c ~ve to g.o In Front of unothet P11rf!.ment to as.k them to do iOI'Ilethint for t.J,, So we art dolna it 11ow.

Wtl.t ~cart- doiJtr; jo 1hc pr<~CeS~, aM •·!ut ,. mJt~~ed by a Ice of pcopJc.. n llut at thlt mocnt•t •c Cl.ft do 11\l:t. Tbe ONttJiil Parl&&met~t c:wkl do pn:blbly, 1t they "''lfltt4. al.ut anythlq wttll -.. C'OMC.inn.to.. WKa wo ~11 latYC ~ubtcd the COMtil•tJon, for tht IKXI 1.0 )'Ut1 nothllll 'llliU M.ppca ... 'IIWC haYC the: l.lf'CCO:•I of d the pnwi.Ccs. So •llat W

are dolna '" t.hc: pr:O«U is lOt tk first lime we 1te aMn& rul power c.o t.he pi'VYi~~e;u, which they do not •~~e al tllif lime. Tlle.re. ltill duire and there was a arcat tryln.l for jj )'tars fot all the parliamentarians of Canada to aa~c. We cemc CoMe m"">'· many times. When I l'(lnd the f'uhon·fiVIi:U formula. Mr. F'u~reau:u one time said that il was na.n:~lupon, bu.t Mr. Lh'<IMIUCIInd Mr. Lesage would liCit Jell it bil.ck In Quebec w they .... alkcd ' "''ily. In 197 1 the 5Amc thlna happened to Mr. Dou""'"· So now it i~ qu.ite evident that the time tt.• .:ume. to patt&llc and l ~h.nJca.IJy, in terms of bw, li\'t lhc pt'O''inces 110mctbi n.a to u.y kpJiy into amendil'll the c:oruthutiOil Ln tbe fll1urc in C.Aada.

'nit Jof•t (;bi.nau (Sraator Ha)'l): Do )'01 tuvc a ~m~U

qiH:ftion '"'.small pprcr1 Mr. OririH: I am $OITJ I WJS a bh k-at•)' bllt tile

qaution wu calliq for iL Tk J GIIK O.in11a11 (Snla tor Hay.J): I forp to 1nili .. l, bu.c

•e ~re on t.he teooftd stage-, .so tO minuta, Mr. ll.P111 Mr. CMirmu, ram 1101 uylna to talcc tllc t1me of

the commitlec, but (!bviolf.tly thii c.ue needa n fair amoullt or under'llundina and buiJdifl$ aOO one ju11 c:nnnot llcctn to do it whh OIWI Quc.-tion and ODe answu, in folrneAt to the minil!ter find In ro~~irnt:l!l tO ffl)'SC!f.

I ""•nt 10 Ja)' to the minlst~r tlull I rtcotnll.c the impcri11l IIIIIIJ o( 1907. On t he Olhtr hand, throu&b the Statvte of Wca-uni Mier of 19)1 and d)C &IIS\ItaMC:t alv(.ft in 19d by Prime M in.IJLet l..ouiJ St l.aurt11t, u the lime the amenclmen1s wtrc mt~dc "' NcwfOII.:IIdb.nd. there •n-o vory 'f'C('irte aMI· a liCe &.i~ br tk Prime Millil:ter ol the 41)' i• I"' tbt la the a~u wtlitll: • -tre" rdatins tbt• to ~"1ft to the Brklilll Nonh Amttic:a Act. as it WCIIIW •elate eo fcdctaJ po-crt and i• araa rH federal ju:risdieuon. there wo.ad noc be­any dlllttiC Ut ter111.1 of f'"Wincial powm or !llriHtclion. I kftOW WC (tln!W)t ntlb.Jit.h.is Ok toi!:l)' Ot itl 10 mtnUIC!I. b\lt my e-au 10 JOU U tllat I undentand you have now conflrm.e:d that Britain 1:~ IWll boulld by the OOflventlon, thl&t it 11\111 they h;•vc to put the p.dtt~~Jt· as presented by the Plt.rllao.ent or C.1111ada, und thl\l il it rom hope they do so. Out I abo $11)' h) )'(IU w.ry d early. ""'CJUld il not be better, in view 61 !he nuuranoes tllttt WC:I't •JVen i:n 1949 by Prime Minitttr S t• l.ai.Hi:lll 1nd others that lbc ptO\'illcial jurisdi<:cioRs "''OOid not be tr11mpled on

( TraJU/Gth!IN J rcqu«e i S• 1\hjcat~ b prbnt de ,;ab.ar le P:utcmtllt briutltn• que ck: cerujn, tu:td de lot Ooftc,, du point ck vue Jtlndique, c:'est le hrlement bfh11"niq"t\ e:t non pM I~ Canodu, qui dl!clde-ta. Or,""' k pl~n Juridtque. iJ pour~ll rd.ucr d '!l&lr, bien quo je ne penu ~'"' ~tu'•l le: (ai'§C. Ce.« '" r;1i);OII po•u laquellc nou• tenunll A r1.p11 tricr lll coMtitution 1111 Cuonda oar, actuelfi:II'ICIU, tiOilJ 1011'1n1U Obligts de /'CfC:rer :l Yll llUIIO

parleme.ni pour n\Odlfier not re l>r<IP"' CXII'I~ti llllion,

Seaucoup de ICft~ IICI iC:n'lbfent Pill oomprendre que tiOUI

$0rrunel habilit& 1 q:11 de a. M)(lt.. & prjftcipc. le Parteft~t briwtrt.iq.e f)C*rt&tl •ti.IIKI CIOIMriC d f utcocl en cc Ill'' ~ ftOtre COMtll•liM. l.onqt~t cdJe.ci $U2 n~patnhe, rico fiC pow.na attivu •• cwn cld dc:u atlak:f i -e•ir uM

l'ao::ord de "** ~ prootlftCO. La pronAC:CS auroet d011t clu poc~YOirt qui n.'haicnl p~.t kt ~ll jusqu·i prtse•u. Pcr~d:lttt jj ans. ks JN~rlementoitct ctnoubcns ont asay6 de .te mcllrc d':tecord e;t, ii de nombrc.'Ull~ repri.ta. y sunt praque :arri'IU Ail13i, d'aprb M. F'avtt:\11.1, la (ortnulc Fu1to""Fo1Yre.111 ll~llit

fait robjct d'un nctord ~nbal; rnnlyi: tout, 1\ fM. Uvesq11e e t Lesag_e ne sont pnJ l)l&rvenll~ d La foi re actcptcr au QuH1ec, et 11insi la for•nule a d (l eue l•b.'lndonnfc. La rnCmc ~~..: c~t arti\>Cc it M. Bourauo. en 1971. L.c. m-oment est dooe venu de: rapatrkr la oonatitution ~~ lk dollfler aux pn.wintcS dl'il pou· voiu jurid.iques ~tl CC qui QOflcxrne kt modjftealioo~ i o1pporter A la COJ'tUitu1i011.

lA C'opr&Wt-111 (Hut...,. Hap):: Pc.rrict-¥GUS tepo~Mtrc i uae brtYc qaacfo.1

~1. O,itkc Eaaaac&oiM!i d·ncu ne •• pcu ..... mab la question raiJait.

U toprfsl41,.•1 (KMIIdr Hat"): Vous a'fel du mhuatu .

~1 . fpp: Jc tte tleN piU j falrc: pctdre dlJ temps uu Comlt~. mais il ellt Cvtdcnt que vu l'1mport11nce du probiC:me, it n'c:n pall q-ue~tion de rC&Icr cc:uc arfaire avec: une lieu le Quet~loo.

Je ticnt l sl&nlllcr au Mini~tre Que jc suis d'a"ord u~cc I~ natut imperi11l de 1907, I,ILr contrc, d'aprb: k Statut de Wutminnct de 19)1 cl 1$ *"\ltiLDOCHionoCcs e:n '1949 par le premier m.iltktre del" fpoq~ laus Sai:nt·laurent, .i I' ()(1(:11111011 de$ u)Cfldcmc:ntl adopt& en u qu• c:o.ceme- Tme..Narws, uipek:at que. tout alnC'Adtme•t l fActe de rAm&ique d11 Nord briuMiq~Ue ronuart uctllfl~t ., b po.~•ou'l et CIODlptlc:rw;le$ d11 pwme~ne~t fl.dinl. SOI-IIIll Qt11t ks pou._n d

COtllpiteaces des P""CfiMI'IMtiU pt'O'rinciatU: sut.s:lm.t la mol• drc n:od:ille2tioe. Je NI' fort hen q..c: di.'l rniflute5rte ••fri'wnt pas poor tialer auw qua~hon parcalk; YOUli SJembJez ~onmoinl avoit confirme que lot Oru~e·Btc:tagne n'w p;tS tenue J)llr cettc c::onve-.n.tlon et qu'dk c.'t db lot~ oblig6c d'adQCI4er let propollitioM qui hal ont ~~~ 100mi$CII J»r le l'rulcmcnt cnna· ditn, tt vout estimc:r. q11c c'c11t cc qui nrrh-ena. Or, ne ,~nliC!l.­vou.s p~~s q11e coanpte tonu des n.,~unlnCI:~t qui rurent donn6cs c:n 1949 pa.r M . Sfl.int· I.Aurtl'lt et d·autrc~ :1\':mt ful. il sctnll prirtrable de ne J)AJ cntpiC.Icr "" k:s coanpt1cnce:s provinchti-H

7-II.J9SO Constitution du Canada 2 : 39

(Trxtd 1hrougb this amending tl'lcchanistn now in place, if in fa ct we. should p;~t riltt e with <&n amending formula end th~n make tbose cbangcs here in Canada ratbef than ru.n the ri.tl: of d i(ficuldcs d tat might ()('C:ur in 9ril.3in?

• IS20

Mr. ChrftitB: I ~i<i thal l~pUy the British Parliament is ..cot obliged, but t hey h'-ve foUowcd in the put their own c:on,·ention, and it is mcntic.mcd here t hat they will tuke wh;ll i ~ wming from th~ fcderaJ Parliamenl of Canada and tbey will d eaJ ~·ith tbe< Canad ian ParUan.cnt tn a molutiW1 to both Houses. nnd th~t has been th~ir 000\~nlion in En.s.JaDd. So I say t.hat we do think. and it has been oonfirn.cd in our oonununic.ulons wi1J1 lhem. that they feel bound by 1hat «tnvcnli<.ln ih11t exi5ts in Ens:land. not in Canada. chat they always atteded to requests: of a joint moJ·utio n o f both Houses. So thb i $1heircl)n\~ntkm, not <& Canltdi<&n ..:onvcntion.

Mr. EPfl: Can I have an assurance at this moment t.hat ll.e)' wiiJ follow to t he k uer the 1nanner in which tbe proposal .. . .

M r. Chretic:ll: Ob, yes. we 00 think ibe)' will follow lbeir own oon~-ention in &!gla nd. and it is quite d ear in my mind. You talk aboutlome membtnl ()(Parliament in England ~·bo make $Qfrtc:: c::omm~n l at this time and say that perhaps they will d isagree and &O on. But '<''t do feel 1hat Madam Thatcbet, in talking with Prime Minhller T rudau b ll t ~ummer .. . 1100 I think Mr. Calt...ahan, whocn he wa.s Prime Milli5ter of Ena.lancJ, expres~>c::d t he same view to some Canadians, that the)' were to follow the eonventM>n, ;md thi ~ I h.1ve I'M> doubt about. Of eou~e. if that becomes &Ott of a li ltl~ c::onti'O'I'tn)' in England tbesc days. it is nocm.aJ because they are. faced with a new problem ;tnd they h(lJle thut they will n<X h.n·e to (nee thrl.t problem ao)'mocc in tbe f llture. That there would be an editorial in Th~ Tim~l of En{;l:tnd •. . o( eoul'l\e you kti()W that b The Olo~H ami Mail of Canada so we are not ~urprised. the ~me 8U)'S own bot.h ..

T bt Joinl Clu inOJin (St-nator Hays): Mr. Tobin.

Mr. ToWn: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wouJd like to first o f all. as my coltc:n.s,ues h;,wc: !Sono, •~lcmm: the- Min.ister of Ju$ti<:e here today. I a tn ver;y glad he oould come on s-ucb s1lort n<Xice.

There are q ttcstions I would like to raise and in orch:r to haYC the bt.nefit o.f a fai rly lengtb)' at~swer I will keep my QUC3tiOBJ fni rly &hort. Perh<Jp5 I <:1111 inform th(lk mem~rs of the committee wbo do noc know that the Premier of N ew· foundland m2de- t1 pubJic announCI!ment <w'l t he airwaves in Ne.~·roundla n<i, on television ond on radio, a h1llf·hour live broe.dcast. which I suppose woold have t he effect of almos1 rais.ing. in his opiniQn, the sped re: or 11 prQVin<:i-111 emergency in that the oonnitutional pack~ as proposed by the rede.FIII &ovcrnnlent would $0mdtow l!lnd in $(lml: way rdult it' a loss o f the den<m1inotional educatio nal sy~tem in the province o f Newfound btld and ~eondly, rt-.!ding tl1e texl u d tone o f his remarkJS, wQuld resuh in a change in t he J..AbnulQr boundary. Thit~ is a \'try serious matter he has- raised. I will reserve m)' own C0111menl-l <>n tlte tone of hi$ remarks and wha t I think ol his tt:marks, bul I would ask the minister wi th respccl to the

(Tradur.ti(J>'!J en u dlisant IC~> modalitCs <i'amendemcnt que \'OUS avel prt­vves. Ne pcmu::t.·vout llld (Ju'il SC!ah J)rU~rl!btc de commencer par rape.tr ier la CQfl~l ii tu i.,. et de pl"(l(i,der t ns.'Uite id , au Canada , 1 eertaines modifieatioM plut6t que. de ooulir le r isque de nous heurter :\ toute1: sortes de dif'lic:uht#1 en Grande· Breta.g.ne.

M. c;tu-etie• : f>u point de \'UC· j ur!d k!uc. le f':1rlemcnt b it;tn· rtique n'est PI» obligC. de nous donncr utit;(<Jction. NC.n11oiru., c::ctte- fa90fl de ptoeMcr est devcnue unc trad ition et, d'apt~a c;~ document$, le Parlctnenl brituniquc hudk r o'l le$ dtmitn~ d es qui lui soot soumises JIQr le Parlc:.mcnt eanad ien et feta c;onMit re sa position dans utle rbolution adrcssCc aux deux Chambrcs, c:unfe>rmi:mcnt j la t nuJitiM. A notre avis <i<ee, le Patlement britannique se oonsidt.rcra lii: par oeue tradidon qui vwt qu'il doonne toujours satlsfi!!etion 1 une dcn1andc intrtldulte par les dcu:. Ch;•mbrcs. ll.s';tgi~ l;i d'une trmlil ion britanniq ue ~~ I)()() pas ean:adienne.

M . Eppe Pui:-~•je done av<lir tous me1: apaillemcntll en et· (lui eonoeroe la raQOn doni l.a q11~tion $Cra ri816c . , .

M . Ca.ritif'D: Je suis OOl!Vtlitlcu que ccue tfadltion ~ra rC$peCICe. 11 $C peut que l'Crlain~ d Cputbl b.-i tannitjutS ne soient pas d 'tteootd. lln'cmp&::be qu'au wun de &CS Clltretiens avec M. Trud~u l'~-t6 <iernie-r. M~4 Thatcher s'cat montUe fa~'Orable, de mi:me que M. CJiJJ.ag.ha n lol'l\qu'il i:t;tit P~mier ministrc~ 11 est norma.! que ceue qve4tion ~tscite des remous en Anglctene~ ear <:'est la premi~re foi s que Jcs Britanniqucs ont l rfgler une affnirc de t c tenre d ili e1:~rtn t q ue ee sera au!W l a dcrnl~e. Le Tlffttt de Londr~ et k Globt Qlld 1>/aU app.utcn01nt au~ mCmd proprKtaire.;, il n'C3t su~re ~tonnant que ceuc affaire uit fttit l'objc t d 'un article de. fOnd d:utS le grand quotl<i.iefl londonien.

U toprdldf'nl (sfn•ttur Hsys): Monsieur Tobin.

M. Tobit~: Mc:rci, monilcur le prUident. J c llc-i1S tout d 'abord il souhaiter la bienvenue au mini.s1re de ha Ju~lict qui 11 acceptC de rtnir bicn qu•oo l'ait invitC. i la toute dcrniCre m inute.

De f:t.~n ~ 110us Ja isser plus de temp;~ PQII r rtpondre, je ,.,.;5 es.sayer d'Ctre au~si brtf que possible. Voi.CS Sa\'C·1. sans doutc que le Prcmiet mini:sHc de ictre-Neuve. au cuur$ d 'unc al~ cution radM.xlitfus~ d'ttne dcmi·beure. a amrmf. q ue les plans coMtitutionneb d11 gauwrnenlent ftdtra l rillquc-.n t de remotu e. en cause. lt:s ~ooles oonrcs~ionnclles de llt JlrQvince et modifie· raient pa.r uilleunle ttac6 de la frontiCre <iu Labrador. 11 s'aa:it d'utle ques-tion Cll.tri:mcmcnt imporlilntt. Je m'abt liendtai de­d ire oe que-jc. pc-nsc de oeu~ a ffirmation; j'a in1etais p.~ r oonue savoit <:e. que le ministre de ta J ustk e en pMst.

2 : 40 CootthutiOt'l ()(Canada 7- 11- 1980

(Tt'XI) ac1 ll S iL is now before us. ooold he comment on those two chargts'!

Mr. Clt~tlen: I think it was \'Cry surprisins for me to he~~r such a stutcment, tQ $;ty the le~st, from the First Mioistcr and Pretnier of Newfoundland because, of OOt.lt$C, if )W read t-he text il is w.ry clear that there is no W:l)' we can amend that part of tbe eonstiiutioll that reU.tcs to spedfi c.lly Nc:wfoultd· lomd •·ith()ut the approwal ()f the ptO\•inoe. So his canard, i:f I <:an use that cerm. th11t we ouuld take aw:t.)' Lal»ador and gl\'t it to Quebec can be done onJy with the tJreement of 'e•·· foundt.and. On the question of tltc. denomination:~! educatjon in the sch~s. this can be done. b4•t witb the approwl of t.he proplc or th.e province ol Newfoundland. When there is a clause in tbe (.'un:tditln OC)nttituti()n tht1t is rcl-attd tO o.n~ province or two provinces, but dots not apply geDtr•lly to .all Ctn~tdians, in ordtt to change it we need the approval of t he people Of tbc Jegi ~J :.ture or thoit prM•incc.

• JS2S

Mr. To"in.: Mr. Mlnbter, I ha\'t two mare qul!:'tions.

Stottor Coonolly: M11y I h.1v~ <1 t upplementary the"'? Would ~ou Identify tbe c:lausc?

Mr. TOOI11: Proposed ClaU;Se 43, Mr. Cllr~dtll: In relttion to the border of the provi.noes., it i$

the I:JNA Act of 1871. thJs piece ()f legislation. So ltc Is daubly protected there.

Mr. T~>Mn: Mr. Minister. 1"''0 points. and I will r.tise tbis one first: As a membe-r or Parliament. and I d() not know a( any otber membert of P;uliameat, I did DOt ba,·e oom.munica.• t.ion with Mr. Peek ford regarding his conc:erns before he "''Cflt on live television, aod I would lik~ to ~uuri:· m)'SCif that before tbc premier of the pr<Win<lC took the measure 1>f goina on !hoc television and taising teally twa ~·et)' rriJbtening questions. if be dMJ approoc.h you or your officials or the Pdrtte Mini.ster <lit tbese parti-eul.;ar ooncerms. he wo•s arforded the opportunity of replies regarding bis eonc;erns. In other words, in essence. hnd the Premier approached you on this?

Mr. CfuCtien: No, no.. und I 8UC$$ th;•t if YQU hotd read the text ~ou would have known.

f\.fr. Tobi.n: Thank you, Mr. Minim:r. 'Tbt Joint Cllairm•R (Se:• ator H•y$): Mr, Lapierre. M. Laplerre: Monsieur le minlstre~ comme les autrcs, je

veux YOU$ rc:mcrcler d'~t.re ki. J 'ai :eppr(ciC toot 1 1'heure- !tt grandeur d'8mc-de M. Nysuom quant 9. l'art tde Ill de I'Acte de-I'Amhlque du Nord brit.annique (1867). Je. rcgrcue qt.~~'il n'ait p11s eu I'Ame plus gnmde pour indure l<xtles le::~ prOov• inoes , . , Parte qu'ii ce moment- Ill., s 'il voulait appliquer eel artkk A quam~ provinoes. et non A la slenne • . . il me. se.mble que QC qui eSI bon pour Id :'sutres d Qit Ctre bon pour ~! E t, c'cst pour oela que je sttais trCs heureux de l'appu)'l:r si jamais il d4lpoS3il une motion obJig~nt toutes l.es pto~lnces A se ller i l'artide I JJ. Et it~ pr0po61, qu' il en prenne note.!

Monsieur f-e ministre, au <:ours des semaines pass6es on a c:u beaueoup de d!scussiaos au Qui~ 2ul()ur de l'nrticle 23. Et, en ruppor1 :.vcc Ill l.oi 1()1, M. Yalden a fail eerttines

( TNmslotlon)

M. Cbrtden: Je suis trCs t tonnC que le Premier ministre de Tene-Neuve ;lit fait p::.reille d6cbrutian. car il est tout :\ fait chit que sans l'aceord de Terrc-Ncuvc n0m1 n-e poov<MtS pas mcxlifltt les dbpositions de la constitution qui s'appJiquent exduslvement i cette pr~Wino:~. P()ur arraelter le labr.tdor lt Terrc-Neuve-et le donner au Qutl.lc-<:, il faudrail clone l'accQrd de T'ctre-Neuvc.l!n ee (lu.i COitet"nlC· k:s OOoll!li confes:sfonnelles, il faut t:galen'lent l'aec;ord des Terre-Neuviens. l..JI oonstituti<Xt du Canada comprend des ankles qui s'appliquent d une province ou deux ~ non p1111 i l'cnsernbJe des C:eru~d itn$; alin de les modifier. !'accord des habitants de la province ou de $00

parkmcnt est indispc~abl e.

M. Tob[n?· Je 't'Qudrai"' v<lt poser d.eu.\ autres questions, m(lf'ltieur le ministtc.

U ~i.n;atee~r CoonoUy: 11 11'11gir de qoel~trtKie'?

M. Tobin: U l>fOjet d'tutkle ·U (\t. C• reticll: le-trac~des ftooti~fC:S JM'OVin<:i.alts est fixe IIUX

termes de I'A~te de 1'1\mCrique-du N<Wd btllannique. de 18? I. 11 a done une protection double.

M. Tobin: J 'igoore si M. Ptckfard s'cn entretenu a\'ec des d~puth fM~raux avant $00 i!IIQCution mdiQdiffeu&. J'aimerals !Jnvoir $'11 a contact~ le premier ministre ou \'OII$·mCme nv.-.n t oeue allocution pour abtenir dts :tpaisctnenu sur cettc qu~•jon.

M. CtutcJen:: 11 ae tn'a p:u comacte. oe qui r<:3S«t cluire• ment de l'alloc;•l ic.~n d'uiUcur$.

M. Tolll•: Merci, monsieur le ministre. l.c coprbidc• t (Le ~ftllleu.r H ll.)'t} : Monsieur Lapierre. Mr. Laplcrro: Li);e my oolltl'gue!;l, I ,.·i ~h hl welcome ~ou,

Mr. Minister. I realty apptecillted Mr. Nf$trom'$ magMni· mity "''ilh respect to Section IJJ of the BNA af 1867. I can ()IIJy ~gret that hi$ mn.gnanimity d(.l~ n(.lt enC(.lmp.1U all provinm. What is good for others should be good for ontS<:If. I wotdd be \'er)' r lc:JIS!:d w ~ond a matlon which would ha,•e Section Ill apply to all provinces.

Soction 23 hiLS been the object q( much di$CII$~ion in Quebec during the past ""'ec-~s. 1\ fr. Yalden has made a number of rem11rh C(.lne~rn in& Bill ll)J and he-will probably 1CP.,':1t these

Constltutloll du Canada 2: 41

(T.-.xuj rcmarquc:!l qu'il ' 'iendnl oer1airKmcnt fuirc: dc:vanl k: ComilC. Est·ce que le goc~vcmemc:m. daM les circonstances. est pr~t a aceepCc:r ttrtalns an)endemt:nlll U ctt utic:le:-11\1 Si ttrl.:lir\S membtes du Comitt, ~si k Comi1t h1i fait des recommanda· lioat dan3 c:t StM , est~e que c'tsl OU'lt'rl ~cc niveau·M?

1\f. Cllritien.: Le C:lmi1C si(gc: tl le: ComitC sera appc:lt i regardet cbaquc: ptobJCme. Si qudqu'un veut Jl'IC:· su.ggC.rc:r de meilleurts solutions A CC:· que nucu ll\'l>fl$, en lenne de te.xte c:onstitutionncl, tant mieu.x! Mais. c'c:st ttes difficile. par« que •.. Que: voule:z.ot·ous . . • Bvidemmc:nt, au QuC.btt, depuis la Loi IOI,Ie3 droits des an.&lophc.>ncs ont CtC chunits: c'~t ·!l · dire. qu'annl cetie loi-lil, un a nglophone canadien quj arrivait au Qutbec al•ait le droit d'tiWO)~r s.t.l enfants dant l.e:s Coolcs anglais~. Maiatenant, il n'a plus le: droit de le: faire. 11 pc:ut dcm~Jndc:r la pum.iMion. , , , On dit que, gCnCralement, on donne la petmiuion. Mais vou.t sa.vtr,. dtll g.ouvernemtnts A prlvl~ges .. . je n'aime p:s$ bicn cet.1! J'nime mieu.x le:s souvct• nement$ qu.i donnent des droits. Quand j'ttais ~tudiant. on avail un touvtfntmc:nl, ~ QuCbec, qui etah fOrt ~ur Id pr!Yll!· ges. £t, j'alme mieux que le.s droits des ~iiO)'CJI$ Joicnl pr()le. gC:s. l..e.s droits des ~itoyens aoglopbones canadic:ns qui arri,~nt

au Quebec ont ~t6 ch~ngh pa.r 13 Loi 101. M. L~·C:$Que hli·m~me a p~( :tux prO\'iJlot:$ i St. AOOre:w• eo 1977, et 3 MontrColi e:n 1978. la rCeiprocit~. Et nous avons pris eette r~ution qui avait Ct6 aoctptCe tn prind pc:- ~t non mise:. en application par les province$, nous l'a.vons tle:t:te All 5-1atut constitutlonne:l. de tclle faQOn qu'iJ n'y aura aucune h&itation. Seulc:mcnt .. 2l. l c1 23.2 cr!c:nt, pour ctrtalncs pc.rsontle$, eertajns prob&l:meL .l':li eu de' reprCsenlulions il oc !iujc:t. 11 y e:n a qui di&ent que l'on va trop loin. et d 'autrd qui disent (lu'on oe va pas a.ssca. kin! El si k Con'lh~. 11~ut me faire des recommandations p>ur ;unCiiwer ccla ,,, A I~ condition que le

--.ftlnclpe Joit claircmcnt CtabH .. . i sa voir. Qu'c:st4 cc: que: nou.s voulons? Nous Wluloos au C3n~d~, ll )';llnt deux langue~~ orfi· cieiJc:s. que Its gcn:~ d'un sroupe: ou de raulre Jl'li»cnl reoevoir oU qu'iJ11 $0ient au pti}'S lcur 6ducatioo da ns lc:ur languc. matcrneUe. El cc-la. t-vfdtn1ment . .. ~l:a permct la mobllitC. des gtiU. Jc croi5 que lii. en I 90S, on avail iMctit dans le statut dd provilttCes qo'OB ctCait ~ I'Cpoque., !'obligation de:. donner l'&lucation en l:ansuc fnan~llillc PIJ'IT le:~ f'ra.O\=II.i$ qui C.mi• araicnt ,·en I'Ouest, on aurail peut·t tre aujourd'bui bcaucoup pl113 de francopbonc:s dans d'autrc:s pAfties du Canada: Us ne Ulllie:nt pu n!ecs~;lircmcn t wncenlr~ All QuCbec. Alon, je: flli~ ptl! il reoevoir des suggest ion~. Et d'aillwrs. je uavaillc: mol~meme IA·dc:ssus pour ess:sytt de l':ameiH>fct.

• 1530

M. Lapierrt; Soyc1 assu~~ qu'on fe ra un grM1d dtorl de rlOexion A tt sujet•lil.

Mainten.anl, dcmterement l'0\1.$ avez eu i QuCbetc un c.li11· cours du Tr6ne. e:t oo fail lout un ~hiard• autour d'une fame:u.se rbolulilln. ~ton 1.:~ veut mCme: un.1nimc, et on e:st prCI A fairt 56,000 oooe«sioos pour que ceue rerolution4 1j soit IIBIInimc, Quc:lle lnnuc:n~ unt rifol,ution unanime de I'Assetn· bile natiomdc, condamnu.m noire projcl, rourn~it ii\'Oir sur le tou"tmCJnCJlt UdCral ou mCm.;o. $Ur le &ouvtrnc:ment de. lo:tn· dres, Jc:Jon vou~ '?

ITratfuNlon) remurh before: 1he: Commillce. Under lhcse cir<:unuunees. would the: gM'tfnmcnt be willing to accept certain arcend• mems to this $t:Ction? ShOuld th~ Committee make rocorumcn· dations to tba1 effeec?

Mr. O rttit-n: The Committee .,.,;n, during ill hearings. ha'~ a cba1K:C to examine all these problems. Jr anylxldy h;u better L'(lrutitudun:~I11UUC-''Itiumc than our own, he: il \li'CIOQfl'le 10 pul them forward . Dui let me tell you il is 11 tid:lish problem. Undet Bill 10 1. the rlgbu of anglo,phooes i.n Quebec have b~n m(ldified: in the pa$1, En&Ji$h•l1Jii::lkin& Can:Jdi:lll$ DtTiving in Quebtc had the right to send tlle:ir c:llikfrcn to English 11c0oo.IJ wl1ereas now they do not have that right any fongu. Now, th~y hJive: IC) put in i1 I'CQUCIOI I() cJc.> $C) .and St:llttll\1)' I be tUI$\IIC:t i5 fal'OUtable. 1t i.s far better in my opinion for govetnrr.cnts to give rights rt\tl!er than pt'ivile&es. During my student day!~ in Quebec, I he prQVirteloll government mude Wry CJitCMiVC \ISC: Of Pfi\•itcsc:s. lt is better in my 11iew eo prol«:e riBhtll of cltitens. 8111 101 ball 1Mdific:d the. rlg.I!IS of Englisb-speal:ing Cana· di.1n~ arriving to11ettle in Quebec. I n lli77, in St. Andre'll~ and in Montreal in 1978. Mr. lb<eliqi.IC olfcred reciprocity to tbe other ptO\'i:nocs. So ""'e-hll\'e only 111ken thi• resolmion which in princ.iplc: bud bc.-cn agreed upon even though nOI ,impknt<nted by the prolliDCe& and .,.~ have c:n!ibrined it i.n the: comtitlllioo, w that hc:t~oeforlh there should be no doubtll in th.lt mpcc:t. ScctiQnS ·2J(I) and 2l(2) do raise. ce:rcain pf(lblem$ ror tOme people. Prcscn1.a1ioos bDl'C bc:CJI mo1de to me in this conneaion. Some people claim that we go too far whereas others s3y th~t we clo not go fttr t:noug.h. If the Committot hafl any rccqrnmen· dations to make in 01der to imptQ'\'c: the situation- PrO'rided that we knO'tto' exactly whal we: want. SinQe C-anada has two orfici;•l l;anguuget, peOple:. belonsin.S to either &roup ~ho111d be able: to pursue: their educalion i.n their m~>tber tongue. This "-'0\lld pron~te gre:atet •nobility. If in 1905, provincial natutc:s hll'IC prQI·idcxl for french la ngu;l,t,e education for f'rem.:h>3pe:t• t ing immigrants to the West, we woukf, a.l tbc: present time. hall\'- a fat greater t1U1nber of Frc:ncb-spc:atin& Canadians in other parb of Can~d~ and 1hey might not ncces:sarity hli\'C: bcCII coooc:ntta te:d in Queboe. I an:~ open to a ny SUBtestioM. I ;zm my$tM tryins to impt'O\'C: this .si~uation.

Mr. Laplj)r~: You CIJn be IU$Ured we$hDII think aboullhi.s.

After the reet:nt Speech from t lte: Throne:. in Quebec, theJe. has been • Jol or lA.Ik ;~bl)ut a nol-oriooll resolution. They are "''illins to make: Any number of oonoessioos to pass thit fi'SOIU· tion unan.imou.sly. Wh3t inRuene.: misht 11 re$1)Jut iOon ~tl\llni · ll)(')US!y adopted by tbe Nalional Assembly condemning our projcc1 have on tht· federal gover1111li'n1 or oo t he aritbh government 1

2:41

(T~.~•J 1\t. Ch.rEdu: E.n blen, void. Votrc. Comht aUae: n®t llvCold

cUPQK ootre pro~t devtnl la deux Cblmbre&. QueUe en 5era

l'i"l'utaoe st.r k Cclln11U Je pc:ast que ptt1011ne ne doutc: que M, Len$qt1t nl COIIIrt- rf a tranllii: pmdul 111K aemaiae

t"Y« M . Morin JIOII' a'**rtt q.e roe ait •• CciMc u mois de u.ptcmtKc. On n'a pu de doutc, on: uir qu' •l est cururc. Si I'Auemblie .se pronoot'lte, ciJe $oC pronooccr•., . et 011 en tieD­dr. compte. Swlc:mcnl, J- ~ad que sur le fond du probl~me., qu.ant nux ~rtl1 d'oppoehion, il n'y fl rien a •non .senJ qu:i dlfr~re beaucoup de «1 q~o~l cxis-tedans Livrc beitc de M. R)•an, Ml.l( qu'il a.l:lrait ti!M Cl je le COrtlprcnds., qu'On l llcndc i piU3

lard afin d'•''Oir uJICI entcnle UIOC~ &lobi le llYtlll de n .patrier la Constit111tioL Jc IIC ~it Pti d'ao:ud IWIC lW, jc eroit q111'il ot im.ponant de briKr k llmiiCI pi!Jc. imlntd•te.mut, e. rntuile J'a~ tc,. bica meilkurc pour ddnttt du p.ru&c dc:s pouYOen cc dd i~litutions. Malt 1t pohtique it t rrivc uts souvtnt que I' on art des entcnl~ ou des m&cntcntcs •ur ce:tt.:ains point•~ tnllit i Ut le fond du probl~m., qual'ld je ~oi!J d e.s reprochc:ot, e'~t ~~ me dire que je ne aub Pf' all~ IIIIU loin. Et ().ll~ \'Oilla•vou5 on est tcllemeJ~I ~<:ieu de la bonnt· entente, qu'on n'ut pas aUC aussi loin q~o~e ccrn.imt

tur11ien1 ,'OUJu que nou.• alliona.. Et q uut aua c:l'retJ sur le

J'*\'CfDCQ)CIII an.&h"- dl M:a il 'I • 1UI ~·· knq..e M . l.cN&e: cb.as b •nnla 62 Jt crois.. a .o.l• abolir la Chambn: ... te a QuEbec.. k COMell .Cabbtif ... 11 • ..,.,,. & rtpoque. •J'ftitioc'lnC. si jc peu.t employer cctte cxprot:ion· ll k sou· vc.mement analtit, c.t le ,tou•trne:mcnl ::.n.ablt ovait rCpondu qu'i l aJirait de ra90f'l lthditionnclle, J UJ IH'II! t«Ointn.&ndfltiOI'I du aoo,-emcmc:nt de l'~poque.

l 'k Joi.nr Oalrrun (Scaltor Hat'S): Mr. Crombic,

Mr. Cr'ofltiNe: Think y011. Mr. Cbai:nnan. To tllc m.iltister t!llt011gh )'01&. Mr. Clulr~ntll •.•

Sdatlor C__...,.: Mr. Ct0111bie. oouW I ..-)t the mu1ktcr

• ht year it qs lUl tiN Luatt: appliatic-. was made? Mr. Orhka: 11'1 19(;$,

S«Mtor ConiiOIIr: Thllnk you. Mr. Cluiticfl: Ye&, beet~use h was done l•tcr 01'1 by M,.,

JohnJW>n. Mr. Cronl~ie: We i'll11 ftOW. right? Thank you, Mr. Chak·

man. Mr. Mitti~t cr, miK')I of the impttl.lt r0r the a~neM <.'OMtitutioul diseamioa ~a lllb or:.~oc:ry ariKd, aroN-. arisca: I tl.w: Mu liste•iaa to )'Oil for too b!c.

Mr. Oritie•: Evtr)'body tells me.liOI to imp"D"t uy mon..

Mr. Crom~ic= Th.nt 11 rla.ht. You ate doins Ju•t rinc..

M ..eh of tbc oonccrn dcv~loped obvious.ly in the Province: of Quebec 01 nd dutinJ the referendum dcbntl!. I ~Ill quite i11 ter· e~oted in the CQmmenu from the member for Yorkto.,.·n· Md· "'Ue ud also the membtf for Unooln 01!1 the quatfott of equity alld the priadple of cq"altty a:s applied to II"JUHtic a.nd aaltwal poup1. .-nblufy u rdatcd to aa. Proriaee of C)aebtc- ud the ProvillC'Ct of Oourio. New Bnu\Swte:k •M Manitoba. ltbink if OM went lhf'OII&h maJt of tllc hlltory ol it. h would ace tedious and people wou'd tend to nod orr, but it 8«1'1\S to me it is ~senc.u l tbat 'A't undenilllnd your view on what lapp::ned in rcl:ulott to the refucnd urn. 1t .1eernod to 11tc

---- ____ _ _ .::'·'-'"" 1910

ITNI,.,~/Qt/iM I

Mr. Chrftir11: Your Committee IJ boldie.g iu mcetit~g\ nnd our prOJCICI bu been &;.bled bc:(Ofc both Houses. AI (Of the iano~ olthll molutiotl, C"Cl)'bod)' t NWS that Mr. Uve.o quc ii .,.-.. oa:r pro;ect. Tccc:~bu w1tb Mr. Moria. he -ortcd clurl ll.l a we::tl: ia «der to ru.ke sure that we .,.,.. Jl:l nowflc.-. in Septcmm. So .iJ pclrWIIOn b wdl koowlt. AI (or a Nation11l Aue:mbly resolution. we •tll u\e i1 into aec:ount. The oppo.ition pattlc$ arc more or Ios in agrcem~nt on thD point and Mr. RY\'n'$ beige po,per does not differ vcsy rnuch except th.at br: would like UA to wnh until .,..e get ~ unani•nous aarccn,ent to peuiate the Cotuot h~o~ tion. 1 do 001 agree with hlm and I rtd Jt i' imponnt to bl'eak thi1 impusc tic)u now znd btcr on h riJ bt IMdt ebitt to d~ disanblnion ot ~ h b ..-nW 1ft Jditic:l to Un d~U: 0111 ctttaia potnts; as far a:s prinaplo arc ~ the majority ol thoJ.c wlllo c;riCirilc me say 1111-1 I t..vc not gone [at «<OUI ·· We Mvc I'IOt dooe ~ thi• with. a •kw to sarczutudins as mttetl ur a eon.en'u' ~~~ possible. M fonhc British covunment. th,re is a precedent •<'lltn, in 1%2, Mr. t~:Mge wanted to aboh.th the L.tablutive Council, 11~ the Quebec. Uppc:r HouMo was n.!led, He llad petitiot~cd tbe Oritbh £.0Vetnmcnt to thnt eltd but • 11• told that the SO''C.rnment of the Uni1cd Kif!Jl,dom WOIIId, HC)Ofdj~ to ttMitiCIIII, ~ U.poll I rccommt!ldatio. ol tiN: JOW'Cfll.nelll •

Le co,~l4ut (lr K.attur Ha)·a): Monsk:ur Ctombic.

M. Cro••le:: Merci. mMt:icut le prtsMScnt. Je w u11 dtm.sn· dcr au Miniwrc .. .

u ..,_ ,._. c ..... .r. u c~ctu*'t de M . !Alp • &i cJfcct..& Cll ~•die annft!

M. O~llt'D! En 196S. Lto dnatcur C(ltlaolly: Me~l.

M. ClllrVtlen: Elte a 6tt teprl~e l)lu ~ tlard po.r M. John~l)n ,

M. Cro111hir: J~: peux oommenl'Crt Ct:la fail lollJI.Iempl. moMiC'IIr k m.iftistrc., q" JC W)GI enterMil pieurc:r au wje1 de la OOilllit•t~

M. Cllrifi~e: Tout le MOndc ,..._ •• ,~ qv:il a'y a nen l .amCiiorcr,

M. CNI...tHe: C'cst tout ll fair ju! tc.

l.ll quculoo es-t d~:vcnut po,tti-outl~rcm.tnl aigu~ au Qufb(C, et llurtout Ion du dCbal sur le ~f.!rcndum . A oet ~&tud, j'ni trou~t trb intC.n:sutne:s lcs remllr<jll('l raitu par le d~put6 de Yorkti)"•Mdvilk e1 par edul de Ur.coln en ee quj conoc.tnc J'(ptitf dollt k-s cro.pca lif\.8.\1111~ et ca!t.u.tds dn·raicot jiDIItlr ftl priadpe. et pillS ,.,.iattiffl:Mtlll lbti le$ JI'O"IIICU de ~. de rOrHar». eta No.¥au· Bnf!SWlCt n da ~bftilct.. Cc sct11lt lllbonct~" de r~llif .wr 1ft d~taib de tout ce qai s'ut pass6 l l'~poqtsC; 11 es.l n&n«nnint elklltid de connaitr~ votrc pos-ilion A ce a~e1. A man avl11, tout 1outnl!- au1our de la question d'ta.allt6, 11ins-i q11~ le lllfhidenl du Comit~ tc d~r-• • 6

7· 11-1980 CoMtjtulion du Canada ! : 43

(1'tXtt>)

that wh.at lt btint said, and what hu been said (Of a grett number of )~f$-C(;ftainly this wu outlined in a speech f rom the chairman actually. the member from Hocbc-la.g,a-MaiSlOt'l· neuve, when he went through the hiltQofy Q/' it-is th.at wh :H i~ at stake is the principle of cquaJit)', in the sense that anglo· phonu ift the-Province. of Q uebec. sbou.!d stand In no lllghcr or ~><r coloor tb;u• fr;1noophones in the ProviDCe of Ont;1rit). If I could put it in this sense, the p riDCip!e of equality means that in thos:e ptO\•inoo whert the-roe- are minorities of slg.nlftcant numbcr, thosc minoritk$ "''Ollld hn\•e <:QU-<~I it)'.

My lirst q uestion to you b~ since your proposed sections 18(2), (l) and (4) of Septembe-r were cut out lmd only section 18 (1) was maintained in tlle curr~nt resolution. therefore rtmoYing the Provioce of Onuuio and the ProviDCe of New Brtllltwkk fro1n the app!icntioen of Section Ill. do )'<ltl now reprd this re$oluticm a.s deJiveof'inJ. to the rninorit ie;s in th0$C four pf'O'I'inccs. equal it)'?

• J53.S

Mr. Chrhlf• : I said earlie-r tltat the ideal situation will ha~e tO hlwt :t very symmetrical $)'Stem, as mentiQned by M r. l.llpierre a minute ago when he o ffered to seoood Mr. N)'S· trom's motion. If you "'ant to b.ind <:\'try prtw incc-, that wiiJ be the idtal sltu:1tM.m. O fCQu r$e, i.lllt11e re:al • 'Orkl it i$ never idc~t. 11nd "''<: were l '<:ry d isappointed that after 19 71 t hert "''fl$ ' dwindling of the willingDCss of the- pnwlnces to bind tbem· sel ~"'d bySectioo Ill.

ln looking for tbe rooc of tbe problem. "'C felt \'et)' .-ron&ly that the n.ost acute problem I~ ll lwa)it education. When you cannot send ~r kith to your mother IMguase lleh(K)I$, o fficl at Ja.n&u.,se ~~Chools, it i$ vet)' d ifficult e;speciaUy today with TV and so on. for P~nth·tpcllkin& f:tmilit t ouuldt o f Quebec to keep tlte lllnjJU3gc. in the f~mily~ So p«$0flaUy I felt tdue.adon ., . .,, exu emely important. and a lot or the problems we have today e-xist becaus-e it wa~ not ,guar.~nteed In t he constitution for 1111 of Cul\lld' in the pest. O f course.. when t here is nu Frtneb there is no problem: it is ool)' for the francopbone, .so if tbcre is noDC there it no Jlf'Oblem, <V ,.frtu.ally no problem.

I perSI)(IaJI)' v.'isf1 Sectioo 133 would bind everybody. I was worldn.S during the ll\lmmer to bave at leut four pr()'t'intd. In J97f, only Quebec felt bound by Section J:.\3. The eo1111 ooafirmcd M11nilat!a l.:~ t er on. Very h2ppUy, Mr. H atlield had been very po~~itil'e on that, tnd J cona111tulate him bet;:n1u he alw;I)'S wanted to h&\'C it binding Ntw BrlltiS\~:kk. Now be will be able- to biiMl him3c:J( with 1lle pre~en l ;1mcndments, and bc­f'S)'.S be will,

I was disappointed in tl1~ t u nut1er that Ontario was not ready. The)'$&)' they are not reedy. Tbete wu tli$t:u~don that with (h-e years delay or te-n years d elay the)' might or they might noc: but c:ventu;ally t hey t~nid nQ, we nre BM intel estcd a t this time. With the other provii!'ICCS.. my private QOn\'Cr;sationtl led me to believe t.hat if I :asked I •'()!Uid nn-t rcccivc an e.nthuJhl$1k rt$pon5e.. So you go right to the he.art of a pr<Winoe, the legisla ture and so oo and I felt a bit unoomfoM· able imp06ing. If tbe committee w~~;nt:~to impok I will hii\'C to eaU t~e people and ttll them that the Parlit ment Q! Canadu

[Traduction) d'Hochc!agii·Mabonnw~'C. l'a d"ailleun soulignl: d.ans son ape~u de la f itu.ation. P;l.r l:galitC, j'entctldt <tue le$ angiO]ho · ncs d-u Qu6bcc doivent Ctre W•itC$ $Ur un pied d'CgalitC avoc le' fr.~noophoncs- de J'O nta,rio. A utrement d it, 11 fa ut MlUrct I'CcalitC de traitement u.t mirwritCs suJiisamment imponan­tts.

Elant donnC que le prqjet d 'tlrtkle 18(2), ( 3) e t (4) du m<.»s d~ septtmbre a Cc6 abandonDC et q ue seul J'anide 18(1) est maintem.t, wi bien que l'nrtlele IJl ne t'appUque plut a ux provi.noes de I'Onltri(l et d1.1 Nou\'CinJ;•Hrunswic:t. es-t imct4'0UI q ue oeue nouvelle tC801ution •ooorde I'CcaJitC aux minOt'itb de OCI ClUilt.rt pr~,WiDCeS?

M, C11ritit•~ J e vous ti dCji d it que I'Mii:al Krait d'uSllret e~n s-ytt~me pQ.rfal temcnt sym6trique, ainsi que M. l apic:m: J'a ~pliqut. k>rsqu•it a offe:rt d 'appuyer la motion de-M. N)-strom .. L'id6aJ, do ne, suajt d'uppliquer ecs me\urt:~~ li toutes lew pr<Wintel. Mals J'idb l n·~ant pas de oe monde, nous- avom d G, bCl;•s, (l()fiJ;tatn, i partlr de 19 71, qu'un oombre crolstlltlt de provinCC$ rc:fu5aient que l'nr tide I Jl leur S<l!t APf!liquC.

Tout. diin8 ceue question, tourne autou.r de !'education; nous­tn sommes oon\•ajneu3. C'ewt trCs d ifflcllc, en efret, po\lr de$ fam ilies f ranoophoM.s r61idant en dehors du QuCbec de sauv~ prder la l11n!ue fm""ai~e s-J d ies n'ont JliU la po~ibilit6 d 'envoycr kurs enfa nts dun' des l:cole~ oil l'enki,gnement se fait e.n ftan9ftk Done. <:elle Qt»e$lion de I'Cduc:ation ut de premiCre imp!)rtantt, et blen des d ifftcuhts aull.qudles nous noos heurtoos tenement $0flt d ues eu ralt que-pu le !»liS(, cc d.roit n'etait ptt gsranti dans la eonuitutjoJt pour le Canada IOQI enlier. IJien t:ntendu. en l'abitflte de fraDCopl)()l!et, jJ n'y • pas de prob.leme.

Poor ma part. je &Ollhlitemi~. bM:n enttndu, que- l';~rt icle Ill s'~ppllque A toutes !cs province$. J'q.i C$S:Iyi, pendant l '~t, de le faire appliquer it Qua.tre p1ovinces- au moins. En 1971, seul le Qutbce s-'C$timajt Ji(; par les di~positlons- de l'a rtide-1 ll. Pu.r la $uitc, I~ tribunaux oot statue que le M;~n itoba I'Ctait Cple­ment. M. Hntfiekl s\~t fort bcureusement toujours tnont~ oooptratif ice sujet, Ctam p;•rtisan de-l'app!lc.1tion de I' article IJJ au N otwtau-Brunswiek. Ces- tmeDdemenu dc:vraient done lui donner $llti11fae1ion.

J 'ti Ctt trCs- d~u. psr contre, d'app~ndre ctt ( tl: que I'O nt.ario n'Ctait pas d'a«llf'd, ll a i:tC ques tie>n d e remeure ce proje& j piu$ tard, mais pour le moment, I'Ont.ario a refu.sC. lors de mcs entreiienw il\>e.; ks repr~nt.an t$ des 111ub~ prO­vince~. j e s-uis arrivt i la conc:lusion q ue oette proposition n'y soulevait gui:ore d'enthou!li.l!~n..e. J'b"itc~ qu.ant l rnoi. :\ ill'lpu· u r oeue 1nesure au.x parlemenls provinci.aul. Si le C,mitC de.,.ait $'engRger dans ccue ~·olc, je scrais- obligC de conta<:tet lcs autorit~s provint:ia les pour leur faire savoir qt~e le P."rle· ment fCdCrul nous repr&ente, pour rcprcndre le;s paroles de M,

' .. (Tt'.rtJ .-ill rcpotftt Id-in the wordt ol Mr. Cbdc • .._.c ... He uid i• hU tpe«lll on Jnc 7 «lllit we are tile only pcope who~~ aiJ of C.n:tc!:l, b)' tile Ullltt o/ Ol.lt (WK'tioa. If W(" WUI 10

nptct~ llut "'N'II' •ncf II"'C 'IJlUJ lite Q,JO.SCqgcaas. I w1l cot be the OM who wdl obJCC'L

• 1540

Sulltor ·rrc.••t.l•r. I wuuld l•kc to a.sk a tupplcmtntuy, if I may, 111 n mauer or information. You have referred to tJic so-c~~ollcd Ctluncr of VIctoria two or three tilnes. I am not coo sure thu n r~dlnll ol t he hi•lory 9f I bil l t:h;•rter 4 correct, cthe WilY yOu 4ft tnakint it. l-lave )'OOf officials got the te.U of tihe chanc:r1

Mr. Cl1~tlc: n : Y()U do 1101 trust my officials. Tbc w.t)' I undCt$1111\d lt IJ thlit lhttC WCJC iC:~"'eft ptOIIiDCts which 1\ad indiCited the tunc th.llt t hey • ·ere l o bind them~eh-cs., but I will gi\>e it tO Mr. Str1yc.r who is from .. ·cstun Canada.

Sr••ror Tr~•lbtly: My qu~lillon i• thu.. In tbe Vit1oris C!urtt:f tMrc .. ,, .,. optin1•in rormula, ao optina· ii'J """"ibtli· IY. ud 11 wu kl\ to tk provt~MlC:t 10 decide if they would 09t il'l, 10 ..e..c. )'Oil 'AY t&t k'\'tll Jlf'O"lncel .ne ready •t Llla.t time,1ha1 .,., J1UJ1 u.pca.tiom ·~• the.,., Jlll)'rinc:u -wN <JPI i.,lt .. , -.(act

Mr. Ckfdcc I ..,..,. •ttil 7W bcauc YKtoria wu lln'CI'

acuprcd At cM coCIJcrcece all tile preoajc:n wOO •ere chc.re e:lprcued t-.r ~"f. aad KW:Il of t.ll;.t~btt l!t!d ao dloicc. they we,. alrrotd)' cau.a,lu i.n. Section Ill-we were ~~oillln1 10 Sft;KIIt to our UKmtll)'. Mr. Botlnm QUI'lc Mc:t "nd decided tlot 10 ao able with Victoria so rtObody bd to proceed Wllh il. "'' wbcn the Mnt minister.t. at lll;at COilfcm~<Je J:tid to e~~ch ot!Mr thnt tbcy "re wimna to 10 aJoaa with it lllnd will pr~cnt it in front or the House. there is alw-ay~ the rW. Ltgnlly llpt:tk.ln,a.. tbcte: wat nothing le!al t.here. That w-as a commitmcnl by the ~VYCrnmc:nts to bind t hc:mJctvcs, ~~ they never proccodcd ,...itb il bccau.se 10 days after Victoriu Mr. Uouraua uld no 1norc dealt, .so t11e whole· thing diod. B1.1t I rccotnitc: to you th.at the 11evc:n •·ere optina in ..

St•tawr Tn!•bby: Ya. Okay. go 0t1.

Th-e J9hll ChlhMn (St<IUI.HK Na)'3): We ~J.re U$in.g yo11r time. Mr. Crombla.

Mr. Cro••Jt: Well. I did ftOII ~lot:. Mt. Chaim'lan. Mty I OOI'Itinuc: • ·hh the quC~N.on?

Tllt Jel•r O•lm.•• (St-utCN" Ha)'tl): Oh.)'($.

Mr. O..Wt: Mr. Chaitm.~n, tilan\ yw ~nd! k! us tx &t'MfOUt \tr. Ml•i.-«, I tde it the answer • that cquali•1 doe5 1101 e.-Ut ~~ tkrc arc his1011c:tl cirn.msuoen aad )QI

...,..W ht c eo try harder. lt tbt ro-.r •-mrer?

Mr. Oritk« Vu Mr. O...Wc: Tkll~ )W. By llbe way, one snuU rd'eteM~.

On l•O OCCIJI'IMI4 IMl'W f"U luvc utcftcatcd th:u the ~tMietU ol th~ Pto¥itK."'C of Que~ dtcl IQ tlilpport tbe four provi..cn bcin1 coneroUcd by Scctaon llJ. Document No. SI4.QSS i~Kiudcs the fo•r pnwinm • .10 that iJ the: Q\lc:bce delegation (rQm the \lunn1tt, JUtlaJ a mallcr of hittorka.l intaat.

___ _ ______ 7-11-1910

(TtOAtlatloltJ O.rlc, ••I ditail, k 1 JUlft ckr&kr. que..,. SOI'I'IIItQ k:t seuis i rcJriM:••" k Oraacr. to.t amcr. Polar~ part. jt ne m'OJIPO­~eni pu .i p.ra1 .. pu;kiOII.

Lt s6uteur Trt-.. ,lay: Je 'fW(hals: f)(.*r unc: qua;tioo JUp­pl.Cmcnulrt. Vo~U a vet menlionnt {i deux Qtl trois reprisu la chart~ dilo do VletOtl:l. A mOt'l a~is., voos n'intorprCtu, a»ll oelh~ charte eo• rcctc:mcnt. Vot~Rdj<.~ints (lnt•ib le texle d e ectte chattc1

M. Chr,tlc• ~ De toute fa90fl. vot» ne faitcs pAS conO<inoe :\ tnei adjoin&~, Sc:pt pi'(Wineu t'~talel\t «1Ja.g6es i respect" cet 11rticl~ 11 j'al We11 comprit. Je dcmandetai A M. Strayer, qui ricnt de l'oue~~t. de ¥®1 dont'let pJus de details ice sujct.

Le 11-naiNr Trtlll.,lay: La darle de- Vletoda lajs:sail aux prG\'iiiOCI le d1ol.1t 4'adh&et j cc sy5te.me.. l.or$qoe YOUJ ditt~ que K:pt prorii!C'a: •'fla~~tot dkl.artts favorabb, il ••ai~H unlqllat'lelll d'ue l•tcntiiOfl. d IIOil pas d'~tM dk.isioo fcrmc:..

\t. c::tri1Mc C'nt Yni. &ant dolmi: q- la d.a.rte de Viaoria •• jlttMI!f ltf tAt&tMe. l.otf de la ClOfltircncc. Id pt'tfllicn mi•~ra pror;nan• avakat ~ bt pollitd, M. So.rua ayant 66c:idl de rcJCtu cettc ~~- il a faJI11 l'abal'ldoltMr. C'ut u.ft rbque q•e b premicn millistm p-o­¥incbu.\ anicnt P'iJ ~ I'C~ue. Ccla 11.'avait pas fO«e de loi .wr 1.: plan juridique. Ccrtains pnrncmcn~ s'! t$.io:-.nt en principc cniJIJ&. maW. pu la Sllite, .;'ut tombC {i pbt lu..,que., dil: joun uprb la conflrtnoe: de Vict\lria. M. Bouraua a Clflf!Oif. une tin ck non-reccvoir. Cqt v~i (jue sepc mln.isttc:J provin~i1u.-. avtlcnl en prlneipe aocc:pce.

Lt -if••tt"r Tumbla) 'l Condm.ti!Z.

l_.t f'Optbllttlt (le Mnltwr Hays): C'cst votre temps de parole, monsloe:ur Cromble..

M. Cn..Wt: Je n"ani1 pat run11rque, moMM:ur k pt&ldcnt. Pu!l•je ~O>UI'VfC'

Lt ~IH ( wf.ulnr I lap ): Alb-y.

M . Cre-Wot: Mnd, ~~ k pR:$idc:n.l; il r .. t patfok tare ,&t&n' You 9'0Uk& do.c: dlt't que 1•fp.Jit~ e'cxistc pu. ma• qu.e 'IOit.S tcfte._ n"-nmoiu. i eu& yu mc:orc Wilt fok.

\t. Orhle:c C'~ JIUCe:..

M. Cro.Wt: Men:i. Y010 •Yet dit i deu• l'q)f'i$d q11c k JOUW:tMmCitC dlt Qul:bcc: •• ~~ i cc que r attidc I ) ) s'appliquo au q•Mirc pr0¥11:1«$. l.c document numbo 814-0M wmportc CCf. quatrt p~ln.:u..

1·11·1910

(Tau} Mr. Orft.lu: I just want tet ay thlt lbc document W&J

.CrltChod oomc tbc Friday MONI.inJ,. Mr. Cro•bit: Apparently tbtre Wd( • lot or th.il'lgs

tcl'l.ll:hcd,aection 18 (2), (J) and (4) amonathen,, A frtond area of qu~don. if I oould. Mr. Chainn~~on , deals

whh the charter or riaht~. As tbc mlnbtcr know.t.. there arc a number oi pcopk. Native aroups.. lndiln JtOuPI, Statu$ or Women JtOUp1, dvtl libett ie$1 croup&. hm~n rlthll ata«ia· tioftl, whkh have- bcca conccrlted _.hh iprelnc a1p«U: of tilt cbanu ol ri&hts. As the minis.ter -.wkl ~. Mr. CMtr~mD. I a• OM of tilo&e wllo INS aym,pt~)' witt. tbc: charter ol fiP.ll aod the kkl ol M.'riq: ODe. I brt put ClOMUB abo.u lpflclr~e ,.. .. thl.t bsw: ~ COJICUM wllich arc cithcf briq: olfc.dcd by tile ch&ner ol ripu. Ut tk ... , ill •bic* tlley are. dacriW. Of red that they arc DOll bd .. IU¥tt'd -~u enoe£1!. One «ample W()U)d be if yoa lool; at tile oOIIIunllniCIUOfl • ·hic:h ll:.ow hat *n lent to )'OU.. Mt. Mlniue:r, aMI I •·ant 10 asJ: )'0'1 thl1 quc~ion sptt:ifially and abo u t )~ a ~ncflll q~tiOft arlaln,& from tbe charter of riJhtl.

Thb deab whb proposed Section J l(e~) of the charm of rij.htl, and lhe concern cwnc:11 ptimurily fron1 the- .lc:wisb community with r~pc:ct to the prosocutiM of •·M criminals.. The apc:oiric wordina of proposed Secdon ll(e) would make it diiTicuh In rc:Jatlon to the pro&ecution or war crimina l~. indeed tbc oatradi'tW!on ofw11r c:rimU..k. Thacla their (Ontcncion,

In tMit commu..rtication 10 yw IHJ lwlvc olrcred JOmc­wotdi"' • ·bkh cky tl!aink .-ou_ld ~' tlllir CIOftiOCrlll, and it is .-ord&.., that CIOGIQ CJricjatUy ftoat tliM: U~tmru1 Dcc:bratioe ol' lti&.hu ol' 1944. ·

My «*U• is., .no you ud )"01111 P'ffllmcnt acc:cp~ alld aUow tbit oommiuoc to deaJ "'''h ahole ~r.c CCiftOtmS so lhal ammdmuu ean be made that •llowl the WOtdma 10 be ehan,aed •here it 'WOUld offer equJtable trc•tmocnt to those &roiiP' who 10 find tbc:msdves iD a diudvantaaed pG~~ition boca UJe or 1 be speoci fie •wdin&?

• 1545 Mr. O rft lc•: Fiflt, I haYC lllqulnd and I have noc ofndally

r«civcd lbnt kuc:r. I b:h·e not! teen it 11nd n1y Atarr hu n~>t """ 11.

Mr. er.••= No. no. f w~ not atk:ina yov spcdf.ollyon it, but thal kind oltbiq.

Mr. Cbkiec I ,;.sa uid.. Yt:S.. it M:>mc tmpr~•• c:a.a bt fMdc: le tk charut .. • ~h. ere-we: Tbi:5 COOI..IIlittte cu m~.h cbc amCftiltft'IC'bts.. .Mr. Grid••: Thty cu1 Pf'OPI.lK 1.mcndmcnh ;" thee repon

IO tbc lio.~ ud •'f: can decide '" • aover"mcnt 10 amend the rc.otul10«1, To J,;iYe )'0'1 an cnmpk. Mr. N)'ltrom or Mr. Bro.dbcnt will problbl)' Q)flle to thit eommittcc 11boti1 tbe mou"* problem. J do not kiKIW, but 1 guc:sa they Will, ud tlwrc wtJ an CJ[Chan,tc of letters on thllt 110 there will be &omc: •~ndmentt thnt wc will r«e-Jve , tht rt i ~ 110 dot.~bt nbout it.

0( COUI"'ie~ OtiC tbinj: I IIIOilkf like tU W11 Ill thi• mornent it that when you have a charter, it if the. mininuun.

2 . 4S

fTrodwu'CM) M. Clu'ftlt11: Ce 6ocumc:nt • CtC. abu docuK d~ vc.adredi

malin.

M. Crolltbir.1 Oc:u..wroup de cl10S~t~ ont CtC. 11blndon~. y compris le.sarticiCII 111(2), (,)et (4),

Je voOOroiJ main tenant vot~.t poser qudques quudons con· t«nllnt la chatte d"' droltJ Tcl ou tcl aspect de oetle cfuu1c p~upc en err~ difrfrc:~ut 8fllupe,, tcl11 qve les autochtona., lea lndiens. In UWIC':illti.ont femininca. ks ai30Cbtiont du bbcrtU cmkl, du droht de l'bommc:, etc. Jc sub.. pov me pert. en favcur de la chatlc dd droits. Cc qoi ...: M'aiiiXltiae pu1 rK pll w•h compH~ • lliJfitcnu 11011pes q•lt'uant&cfll CIIXIII'c l;a fa90111 -~ la Chatl~ at rhf'.,U et atimcftt QC .. dtoiu ac ,_, pu Mffia~~WU~e pnntil. Jc "*no ..._. citu J'v.~ d'•• dcauflctlc qW 90U:5 a unr doutt fl' com~nvniqul, mo~~Mc:.lr le muUnre.

11 11'asil de.' qutitlont IIOUIMu ~»'' la communut~tl. il•h<c rela1i11ement llU projct d'urclcle l i t.<) de I ~ ~hune de5 drolu en ce qui oonccrne Id pountuhcJ lntentCe& OOtlt~ Its e.-imineh de g:nenc. l.c.l.lbcll• dt: l'ankle l i e) ~ndrait pardlle11 pi.JIHIUitcs ttes dilftc:ilca, 1Ut1CM.II en u qui tQnceme l'eatraditklll dct erimltlt.lt de llittrt.

Da1111 la lcllrc qui vovt a !tl adtessk pn b rcprC!eatantJ de lia cownuautt jlllw, a. ptOpOIC & modifJCt ra..d de eea Mtidc conformlmc•l i a. 06dan.t.ioa w:Jiivcndlc: dct droit$ de 1'homiiiC • 1941

rai-.ah •YOir d k ~ compte •• ,on.a ... Comiti i. &ildM'r ea difT!u~ttes propositioN, doe fa9011 • 011 qv'i) ptWsc modifia t~catlidlemc-llt I'Cncmee de c:ertaU. arti• eles, 1.fi11 de donnt:1 liltlffllction aux &roupes qui t'ethrncnt 1t,;e, ou dC.n11ni11Rh

M . ('h,f.tic•: T~t d'nbord, je me &-uiJ: i nform~ e-c je n'•i pu ~· cctte lcUre otndcJt.cmcnt. Jc nt l'lli pat vue:.: mon pc:rJOn­..el tiOil ptiU ftC I'• p:lll ~~.~~

M. Cron~.ie: No... je M parle pu d"u.n cxem.p&c prC.,:iJ. m-11.it du priJK:ipe.

M. O.ddftl: FJfc<'lmmcf'll. li de$ arhflioradom pc...ac M apponCa i a. cbane •••

M. en-ilk: Cc Comili rat dlc:ct~~er ks amendC:ma~u. i\t. c:::lwitint: 11 pc.t pt'Op(IIKI dd a.meaclemcttts dam 110ft

rapport i la Ch1mbu.. et le IOIJVctflc:mt~tt pwt 66clder d'amender 11 rC.olution, P011r vout dOilftCr un excmplc., M. Nys-trotn oo M. Bmn.dbcflt vlendront probilblemCJlt porler du prublbnc des ~IAAitC« i cc Conlit6. Je n'en sui~ Jlll.t ecruin, mais je suppot;e qu'ib vtendrool, ear dd lcures onl 616 ~dlan · g~c-11 i ce tujtt, 1.'111 ne fnh J!lll dc dotlte que nous rectvton• da amcndcmenu. ~ ... idcmmcnl, l;l cbarte proprcmcnt d itc. <;:'cst 1111 ntinirnum.

l : "'

ITrxt) Mr. CrotiiWr. I undttstucL Mr. Cllrill~•= Tbt rt OQu)d be o1he1 kCdb!lon that QOUld

CO\'er •omc 04hcr Kpecilic problem. We c11nnoc covet C''U)11linc in the chartc:r. 11 U IWll txclusiYt:, 11 i& j1.1,1 tl•e b111t 111inimum and ttu.:rCI iJ Olher ptl>l"tion that comes in other lcal•l.l•lion.

Mr. Cro111" •: I merely "'lwted 10 know ir ~ 'A'OOid Luke ll tnendn~enrs. I rc;stly apprcdale il. Tlle clwlrman If aoin. to rule me out ol order.

I ha11e one fiul quuti:oo Oil tquaUnlllon Tlloerc wu a gr"d! ('Oti()Crll by s number of people lbal tbe cq~liutioft a«ttofl. ptOpOIICCI S«:.ion )I, 4id -x s:pccifallydtalwnh cqualint.iOfll pe).-U. They wutec! it dnrty ~tatcd 1~1 in ~ SeniOii Jl n ..-ttc talklna abolrt cq-.liudon pa)11Kf1U. TMJ ate conecmcd tbt the wotdiftA wu noc a.troq ~ now du.t ~~lt la the.t f't!!-rd..

Woukl you &:i\•c tbt eomm1ttee a_n under1alr;ll'la 1ha1 )'OU would aocepe amendments whk.b would m11lu: h ckar enou&h chac we are latkinc in that S«ttOn about equaliration pJiymcnu?

Mr. CbrMe-111 The problem 1''C arc hll\'ina wnh th111 Metion o( cqunll 7.111ion pe.ymcnl~ and rodinubuuon I• th:u we tte wrilina 11 In t he oonstitution. N<n•· lbcre U 11 rn~.:chnuit.m that i$ ttlln.tJtrrlnJ p1ymcnts to tbe pro¥i.ncial JOIIt:rnmcniJ, This U a tnlrlcei'fC type olcra.nsfer of wtahh rNlm lhc fcdC-1111 JOIIC:tn• mcru to tllc proYiftc:iaJ &ove:rnflKnts. and 10me ean &lJiiiC that whcrt you 1.-ritc 1 con:uiuuioft for a loft& ti~M thu is a •ety acecpcabk mec:baaUm today. aod we arc 1110( plaaai:n.a 10 cll&ftp iL On ll~~r coa.UaJY, we like it~ S.t tllc CIOft(ICpt •e wut to IMCnbe here h 1he ~ olshariftJ. of rediJCritlutiftc the ·"ltll rrom .ome paru ol C.nad. to the othu parts ol c .. ada. Traat.fcr Jl8)'ment:s 10 l(n'UIImenh it. OI'IC Yehidc.. bvt 1t lt 1'01 nooeu&r•ly tbe bell ODe foi'CIIet.

1'1tt J(llat Cll• irm• n (Suator lh.y~ ): You h1111e half' 11. minuto.

M r. Chr. ll t lt: So it you 'll'anl lo irnpro~• it, t he ocher quudon it if the ~;ommittcc says tMt lt ls tcstrk tcd to tronslcr o( pt)'menu to the provinctt.. we would con~idcr 11. I jutt uy that it it 1t consthutian. we arc drafliRf •*' wtuH had bccn tood (CH tiM: bst 2S or lO yean. it h M<'lttMri.ly the only mcctt.•iml •"-ililblc'! &it W c:ommiucc caa mate rcmm­mc:IIICbtioM Mt.~ Tbuk )'OIL Mr. Claa•nn.~u1 . n. Jol .. Oa.lnu.a (Seu•• Hars): I would hive 10 be

fair tO al11l • ·c arc all aoilll to speak. and we •·•11 hne to obey tbe ordc:n or we will be. i.n all kmdt or troobl~ Scl\lll m­Lamonlaa.nc.

& n•tor l.lmo•t•«~te: I am Pfl!-flltted t<l yield, Mr. Chair· mnn. to Senator Pcuen rm <me 4Uc.t-lion.

Si!JIU I)r l••:tttm Mr. Minister, will t it~ proiiOtrrCd r<:souree amendrncm that has bee-n oomudcu:d include hydro declric po..-·cr? That Is to filly, in the prOJXI'Cd ra<K~rt:'o umendmcm

7-11·1980

( TNNJiflti<M J M. C.O.IIW: Je com.prct~dll. M. Ctu·etk•: Ccla po~~~rn~it Ctre •c:compa.a:ni d'a•trcs IOfl.

pout fairc race j d'oull<!" probl~met spl:cifiqucs. il tilt i•npoulo­ble de- tout ralrc dant I• i."hillrtc. Cc n'c!ll p;t., un in\'trumc.ut c:u;lu'Sif. c'c5t un ~trlcl nllnimum, et d 'autres protoction!l 11>nl poss.ibfcs d:u1.1 le cadre d'fl ulrt~ lab.

M. Crmn.bl t: Je .,.0111 dcm~nd11Lt seulcmcnt 1i vo~U ;~c.-ccptc­riez des umc.ndcmc.nu. Jc comprc:.nds cc que vous dita~. ~ pr~sidcrtt ~t sur le point de •••c COUpcr la parole.

J'a.lu.nc dc:uutrc qucttlo. au a'ljct de 1;~ pUEQ•atioll. L'ant. de qui portc s:ur .. pfriq11atiort, k. projc:t d·artide )I, a bc:3ueoup inq•iill u.n ccrt.11• .omhrc de £CM q•i pr&cnda.itM qu'il •. , hilt pP q..aJCICI ., J!licmc:nl$ de piriquticM. Ill woub.itllt cpe r oe pr6ckc ~~~ daas k prOjd d"-a.rtkk ll. pa1 periquabOil.. c. ta~lmd p~~ta de ptriqutioL lit a•~· &:Micslt que rMond ncf>Oit pat nffiSI.m.ft'ldlt dair.

E.tC$-YOI» PJCII j, ¥'01;11 ~nptcr i ae<:c;ptct des ame.ndcmen"­pour prk:iier que d1111t oct atticlc, i1 s•.agjt de palt ll'lt'l!IJ de pt-rCq U.illion '!

1\-1. Olrhlu : Le probUn\C u\•ee oet a rti-cle s1u ks pden~nlf de I,CrCquatlon et 111 re-cllilrlbt.~ liQn, c'egt que c.a:l~ doit s'inK~rcr dam: ta ~;on.stitulion. 11 )' 11, d'une pan, le m6ca1ti5mc qui p«mct de uamferer dct p!&ien1enU au.\ g<Mwernemcnu ptO<tln· d :tull. C'ut unc r«mc rcstrcintc ck tra.nsfcrt d'aracnt du awvcrnemenl (Cdbal Ulll pw:rnellllltnts prori!Kiaii.IC et I'Ofl pc:ut prftettdrc IIIM cc mkuisme:, qui now. :semble 1.1fs a«cp­lll:bfc ujounl'hu.1, qu.e !IOU n'a-voa pu fin.tc•lioo de dwlpr. qai DCM~S plait taucoup. u conuaiK. s'iltShe 10111 aa.tiUdlc­ma~t da.M la COIMiil•tbt. plliqH. klnqu'OQ Mlople u:nc CICIIMo titutioll, c'c:M pour ~~· MW k priftc:ipc q'IC 1101111 ~"'OIIIoM ifts&u ic:i, e'at orJuJ c!'u. pa.nage, de la rcd.litnt.ltloon de la rlcllutt de C«tiii!CI rts:ions ctu Cauda i ~rauttn rCgiQfls. Ln P~"icmcniS de uandc.n 1u.x ,ouvememCfllJ con•li· tuenl un 'fOClCti l . 1nad cc n"cn pu rorch nent une aolatJon ~.ttrnc:Ue.

Le b)pr~bldtfll (dfiiUtur H11,-s): 11 vous reste une ~kmi~minu t c:.

M. Cb.rfdu: Plar (l()IIJ~quent. on peut souh:aitcr amCIIorcr le pri"'--ipc. et •i "' Comll6 pr6cil1c qu'il $'11!il unicl~m<:nt da t...,nsferu de peiemenu ou.x pr.,...inccs. ftOUS So)mttta p~fu ' l'en.Yisagc:t. Je 101tllanc AC"ulvncr~t qu..e 110u:. redigu:w: id uiM ClOMIJI.u.ti.on, et ~~~Cl: S:)'flkM. qv.i t10U$ Mlis(ait depu:i.t 20 Cl" 2$ am. R'al pu (ordintnt k KUI possitllt-. Mais k O.hl pc.t touj<Mia falrc dclrCC!Ofll~m.:btiCIM..

M . C~ Mcm. NMit.r k prf:5ilbtt. .U C:.flrtiWur (Hfialtw lflyt): Je tic~t~ i C!re Cq•rtable

en-v~ IOUI le mondc.. tt pour que 10111 k mOIMk: J*iMc Jlll-rkt, il va f•lloir re5poclc:l un CJtrlaut ordte. stnucu.r Lamoutagno.

Le J~.C.a trur _t.. ~notuagn.: Monsieur le prUidwt. je s~o~b pt'tt a otdCt la parole au s~n1ucur Pe11tn poor une qud ti<ln.

Lll' lli nat t ur l'eth•: Morulcut le ministtc:., l 'amCJldement qui 8 t lC ptO()Ollf II U 1111jel dell l i:IIWUf(ei pmtait •il f81*1eltlt ltl Slol f I'Ctu:ttit hyd~4llec:trlque? Pu cMmplc, d~aos k ~;adre de eel

, 7·11-1980 Constitution du CaBada

fTtXIt) will Newfoundland, for eumple, h11vc- the rig ht to direct taxation over b)'Clro pov.·er?

AS you knov.•, it I$ moll important to my province, Mr. Miniuer.

Mr. Cbrfllen: F1m, you are :uldng me a qutttlon whkh Is t10l in front of the comruiuee because nOOod:y hq.$ tq.bjed any amendment., But I can deal with the offer ... e made, to the provinces- in the ~ummer which we will be asked by $ome member$ of tbi:s commince oo this side and tbe other $-ide to rell'lstate. It was an offer to c-onflnn the owncr.sblp of tbe re30<Urct$ by the province$ with indirect tu11tion in the tC$0UtCCS field, and in the resources fteld the power by the pr<l"incial govtrnmoent tO p~u legis.lalioo in inter·pi'(Winclal trade, and this wiiJ o.ppfy to Newfoundland j~ like any ()Cher pfO'Iirx:c.

Se111tor PCltteD: Aod il will in<:lude b)'dro. it will apply to hydro?

Mr. Cb.rfdee: Hydro was speclfie.ally mentioned, If lrcc:all. I M not h;e,·e-it in front of me. Ye1>, )'(M~ ore risht on th<tt.

Seeator PClrte~a: Tbank you. The Joi•t O aitru n (Stnaror Rays): Senator Lomontagne. Le HnaiCVT IA•ootas~H: MoNieur le copr($idcnt. j"Ai

maintenant quelquu questions d'ordre trh p~Uminaire a poser p:!lrce que j 'ai ~en l'imprC$Sion que n()U.S allom re"\'Oir le ministrc en d'autrcs ocauion, , Ma pre.miCte question est lu suivante . . . Je ootnprend~ que. )e. couvernement, en piu~ d'ttre prlt. eomme le minis.tre IW'IS l'a dil oet aprCJ•midi, ii prendn:1 en consideration Jes amcndcment' qui pourraiettt lui 6tre plus tard reoomnund& par ce Comiti, le g<IU\~tnetntnt. dis-je~ a dCjia d6cidC de pr-Q:eotcr des modir.cations il .son projet et de lcs soumeure au Comit~ . Je croi~ qu'il DOU$ s«ait t~ utiJe d'obtcnlr cq modifi<:al ioM le plu11 tUt possible. Je denuande done a11 minjsue: Quand avcz.voos !'intention de nous propx~ · er Jes amendcmentt que \'OU.S avtf. ll'esprit1 A mon aYis. oela pourmil (aciliter nocre lnv;&iJ. 1>i noli$ ill'ions dCj1l en m:lin les ameDdements que le gouv«nement a en vue..

• ISSO M. Q ririt•: Eh bien. monsieur k ltBateur. j'ai dit que 0011$

etions p~LS, ~vidctnmenl, A propokr octtaitiS amendemenu . .. D'un autre <.'OIC les uov;au_x du ComitC "'Ont se p<M~rruivre et certain& nouvcaux problCmes . .sous un angle diffbent. I'W''<nt se pr&enter. PerS(lnnelle.ment, jc ~ui.s ii 1:. dispo~itlon du Comit!. J 'aimerais mieux eependant l'Oit quelk orienl~t ion pcend le- Cornlt~ pour d~terminer t i jot sub dans la bonne direction v.vcc mcs omendements, oui ou non. D'uillcurs. otr· tai:ru ne soot enoote qu'! J'~tat d'id~e3 qui n'ont pas ~e mises en forme duns un tcxle IC,Wati(.

Orot'lc - , ''OU.S me. demandez de k fa ire le phaJ 11)1 possible, e• ic voos r~ponds que je le fer.t i le. plus t&t possible. Cepend. ant il seralt uvantll&c-ux pour me$ OC)nSeillen et rnoi-m!me de connAitre !'orientation des discussions du ComitC avant d 'i1 Ut:t de l'a"ant; mals je. $ul$ flexible $Ur coe $Ujct monsieur le llfnatcur.

(TrodurtlortJ amendent.ent S'Ur ks le3S<ltlroes. CSt·OC que Tetrc-Neu,•e lll.t'l le droit d 'im.po$Cr dire•:.tc-mcnt I'Cnergie h)'dro-Cic-«riqu-e!

Comme \'OUS le sa~ez. c'est patticuli~~ment important pour ma province, monsieur k: ministre.

M. Ch.r~dt11: P<aur commencet, ''ou.s me poser. unc que~tion ~r un 11ujet d<.lfl t le C(lmit~ n'c-st pu sai.sJ, l):lru que pert)flnc n'a propose d'amendemenl re.latif t oc:IA. Mnjl) jc peux VOOS pader de. l'offrt que nous avo!'ls faitc a ux provinces d~r.s le courant de rete, et Q\le cert;•in$ mc-mbrd de- tc Comitt, des deux o&t~s. nous demandetont de rt it(:rer. Nou.s avons dTcrt au.t provioces de confim\tT le tlttt de propriCt~ des provinces s~r lcs rcssouroes.. avec: impoc1-itkJ.n indireete du sec:tw f del> rcs~rces. ct avec k poti\'Oir, pour ks gou,wnemtfltll provin­chuJx, d'adoph:r dct loiil relatlVd au OOOln,cree inttrprorinei;el: oes djspositionl> •'oppliq:ueron! ;i l'etrc-•Nw,·e, toul a.tant qu'aux autre.s pttWinoes.

Le sinateur Peottell: Et ecla OQmpn!ndta l'CneraJe hJtlf'()o acctrique?

M. C'ltridf•: Si je me souviens bien, iJ y avait une mention toute particuUh-e pour l'tncrg,ie hydr~lectrique. Jc n'al pas cela soo.s lcs yeu11., nu~is l'()u.~ ~w::t.r.~~i.wn.

Le .sin.~~ttllr l"elten: Mtrei. 1--e COI'f'illillent (s!n:attur Hayt): S~t~ateut Lamontagne. S«<ator u .. ont•!£ne: Mr. Chairm:lll. I have. some que.uion~.

or a prclim.inary nature, becuu.se I hll\'t the di5tinct feeling that •-e • ·ill be seeing tbe Minister again. My first question is a\1 fc.>lk>ws , .. The Min!tter S3ld this :tfter11oon that tbe g<wern· ment would be willina to C011$itkr the amendments recommcn• ded later on b}' this Committee and il has morcO\'ct a.lmdy decided to introduce modir.ea tlon~ to its draft and tO $ubmit such mocHric:alions to the Committee. I be.IH:vc it wo~;~ld be ''cry ukful to us to l1ave these amcfldmctats u soon a~ possible. I am therefore ••.sking tht Mlnitttr when tbc-goveTnnM:nt w!JI be proposing the ame.ndmenLS it i$ ()()n$idcrina;'! If we had before- IIJ the g.ovemmen!'s a1nend:me.nts it would be a s reat help to us,

Mr. Chr&ltll: Well, Stnuor. I i:aid we were tcady to wbmit c:c:rttin amendments .• . On the other hand. the Committee's •'OII'k "''ill go on Md some new prob!c.mll might ari$<:, things mia,ht be ~een (ro•n a difrewn angle. Personally, I am in the hands of the Commillcc.. Nevertheless, I •'Ould mther -.·alt llnd see .. ·bat direction dle Commjuee is tuk:ing before I decide lll'hethet my umencfments are in order or not. In any cue, some of them are still idcu and have not btc-n drotfted iotl) kg.lila· tive propo$ab.

Yoo are askinj me to do it as .won as possible ll.nd I am un.s••c-rinc )'Ml that )'<~. I will do it n 3000 IS pt~Jsible. Nevertheless, my udvison :md myself would like to sec. where the Comn\itttt is going before ta.king the-p!un.ee but £till, we are quite nex.iblc on thit, Mr. Senator.

rr .. u ) LA Kn•tNr La•ollta&Jif: VokJ ma dc\l,d_.rrw qt.OCJtioo:

N't~<l ·d p.u vrai que l"attil::lc 43 des projctJ de rboludon ttl Ql.l~ t~d jg~ pt~J<"I11Cmtnt ootltiCnt, en (all, IIOC (Ofmule d'opcion Qui pcrn 1CI Irllil IIUl prorinc~ de tOe licr, CIJ~Iflt lnH, A l'artl<:le 1 J.J «le lu Conslitution7

M. Clltftle•: Cenainemcnt! Voua ave:t rmrraitc•nc.nl r•iWn, mon1lcvr le ,Cnatur. Toute pr<n·inoe pourralt IUn<endcr la ~dtutl011 en "qui la COlk>CtM, en vertu de oet arddc 4l du proJCt de r&al~o~tioll. Pruet par ue•npk le ea& du Nou· vtav•BruMwld . tiJ n'•uraien:l qu'i p.uc:r """ tholutioll ckvut ln&1 AM':mbl&: J4islati~ 1110111, tairc de mtmc j

Ot11•1, et C'Qmhtut.iarmdkmcal partaru, l'alt~ l l'a.t· tk k I JJ de k Coastit•lioa po.~r k N0t19Uu·BN~tt•ki tcn•t cNfirthlt. La llll• diose s'appliq~ l I'Oftt:ati« 1• i cv Dfme d« dJ~ a mxli., ;aftt le aouvcmc.mciU de I'Onwio l cc •~aJCt· li entre ntra ... et le JOVVetfle.mc.nt de I"Ontano m'uture que lcut position n'est pas dflinltlvt: c:11r lit d&itcnt aller d~n. « n.n11. Je (:JOil qu'iJa ont cu un comit6 de kur AJit:mbl~c lfais.lativc. q\li a fair un rapport. derni~rcmcnt, • cc aujet et .qui c" pc»illf. 11 y a certain$ pr®Un.e• de temps, de mL•o en nppHtotion. de pcnonncl ctt . . • en tout CIIJ, si le Comhf vcut cxprimcr un point de vue IA-ckuua, il ~-ut le falrc, Jc dooQ dirt ccpcnd11nl •u ~rUi t de I• pro•ince de I'Onlark» que le principc de s'auacbcr par l'artlclc I JJ ne leur rtpuanc pas. c'eu une question de atmJit cl peut..f:etc. de. dn••ticma 1>0'1ttquc1 oompi"'Juie' ., . Jc M k Mif pat.

l.A Mn.iltw l.aiiOeh.pr. U~~e du•the quutioe. Jc 1K Mis pu de COin~ ft umps jt pta.s dd:J'O'Cif fliOCI« •••

1lrf Jof.t Chi,...• (S..nw Hap )c Y.-. b."' (tw:

m iM ICI.

lA Mnatc•r L• •o•t•pe: Jc 't'OIId,.b I'C'rCJIIt i l"artk:Se: 47 du projct de r&olutioo qlilc le Koatcur Tremblay a10uk..C ~cc apri•·mtdt. A rnoft avis. ctt artkfc n'ut .,., cnCOtc IOQt i fait elalr, du moii!J d;an, mon cspl'i$. Jc voud111is Juvoll cuctcmtnt ~ qu'll «<vvre? Dans lcs notes e.11plle11 tlvct que oous avoos, 11011-f VO)'OIU qu'il se rH~re A l'atdde 48 et A l'llltle-ic 49, Et don.s la \' thiCII'I an&Jai~c-oo dit:

bul sec abo SO . , ,

dint la v.cnion r,.n~- on dit:

vo.r lt.o5ai 11atticlt: ~ 1

Ak>n. je erois qu"il y a 11 tart Cllrnc• t del CO!lf•Jlofl qui mlntmh, je pcme., d'ilre idairci db i pri:K:m

• l$lS

M . Orftin: C'~ • n J)I'ObfiiDC de rEdacdo•. jc c:roG. a JC q b dcma11dc.r i moo 501.1S--m.ioisuc., M. Twf.. de bic• •o.loir V(lllf tfpond te:.

M. AOoltf' THM, Q.C. (so.-mJnbtrc eft la J1ullc:t): Mcs.­s ie~urJ le.• pr&Jdt:nl!. en fail, je pc:n$c qve le pnm~r a.l'llcle auqucl 11 f1.1ut K ririre: dJws la formulc d'nme~Wte~mcnl, t'C!I l'anlclc d'opplitation gCnbale, !'article 41 ,

P.n~uilc, il y 11 l'ar1iclc 42 qui ptl!voh qu'un rU~rcnd~o~m pe1.1t t 1rc utfiiN diii'IS t't:l1tiDts ciroon.uanoeJ, Ccla, c'e•t 111 rormule d'a)ll'ltiot•ion aCn&alc, m~is il y a de~ aeepdon.s i l'applita· tMIII 6c l '~ntclc 41 et de f'artiele 41. Unc prcmJ~rc f.llctpdo~

_ _ _ __ .:.' ·.:.:11·1910

(Tra.tU/atiMJ Sc-11•tor Lll'HilfiiJI-C: Thu u my $CQ)IId q..cstion: Is it not

true tbat dr11rt tti&Ohlllon 4.) a. drafted " in fnd un option form ulu whrch "A'oold • llow I he provint:e~ to adl1erc voluntatil)' todaus.c 13,\ in lhHOn.thution't

Mr. Oldtlc11: Ablohncl)'! You are quite t ig.ht, Mr. Sc.n<~IOr. Any province couW amend the OOOlililution for its cwm pu~ scs according to c:lau~e 4) oltht d'*n resolution, Tnl;c New 8runswkt., for u.amplc ,,, A s;implc rcdutbl bdorc I be ~latiYe AlliCimbly, a u~lar nf10111.1tion hc;re in Otta• ·a. thk is All rt wo.)d take to ~n~tc arikle Ill bi.ftdiftg for New 8tuswX:k. Same th•ft.l for O.u.rio. Tb; i5 cua.ly • ha.t I wu taJki:lt$ a.bo.t ..Jtb tile GcM:rnrncna of O.t.ario d•ri•a the hllldl Mr • • • Alld the ~tunelll of Ontuio UIN:tef 1Dt

t!ut its por;ition 1t not nMI kc:n~e this is the way they ..... Ill to go. I tfdak tbere l• 1 commjuec ol tbci.r UgislatiYc Assc• bly wbKb tabled rec:cnlly 1 YCt)' positive. report ontbu iubjotc. Tberc are still JOme prublvn, rcaardlnt tbc timetable, c11for· «ment, pc:rtof1nel, nnd so un. In any c:~.~. if t.he C;:unmiuec has anythina to"'>'· ~·c ~i\I IIJte11. o·ut I must Si)', and it la to the c:redlt ol 1hc PtOYinec (Jf Ontnrio, that it !s not ud\'Cf'SC to the idea of blndu'lalue.lf 10 CIAuac. IJJ. lt is a matter ol dn\G, a manet. pcthapa. of ~ompl"' political naooc. I do 1)01 know.

S..tor u ... ca..,: ODe • q11atioa. I do not taow bow IIM.idl time 1 hlwe ten ..•

Lr c.pr&w..r (.. tf.t.,., H•JS): 11 woa rc:t« ri1lq milliiC$.

St•tot UDCMltapc: r am soina bade to ds~~:SC" 47 of 1bc dnn rcsofution., the clnJC SeiWitor Trcmbby • ss tslldna about this artcrrtOOn. To my mll\d at least, this dnu:te il not quite clear. I woukt lllce to t i'IOw u;actly what it tO\'crs? In lhc notet~ .,,e wen-&1'(-(ln, ~·c tee lhot it is: a rcferen~.-e tu dtu~ 4$ and c.lau&e 49, In the Cntllj h telll it $3)'1:

but sec alii) 50 •••

lo I he f rench ttlll, it a y .. :

voit auu:i l'trtick SI To me, there it a po~cnt&a l eon.r .. ~ htre aad tltiJ Jbould be danf'litd bt:Jate WC JO I • )' rurttJcr

Mr. (lwilitc I thlak , .. && a tllltter of dranin;& ud I would a'lt my deputy miniftu, Mr. TaMl. to be: so lii'Cl u UJ answer.

Mr. Rot~" T1..U, Q.C. ( llt.l"ltt Minister of Ju!llkc)t ;\h, Chairm3n, I think the nrst ~cctf.on • ·c lw!\·e to ~fer to in tb~ amwdins fl)nnulll IJJ\:elloo 41 on the gcnero1l proc,:edure.

Then there ill ~cc:tion 42 that prCAII<k:s for a rcfetc:ndum in certain circunlilanon, 'n•i• i.J the r.onn11l proeed~:~ rt btlt tbuc arc uc.epliooa to ~Ion 41 a..cf ~~«Cion 42. fitlt, lbcrc il stctioo 48 th.at appllca fit t he care of tbt P~tliamcnt of

7·11· 1980 Constituljon du C.nada 2 :49

(TuuJ c'cst l'arlicic 48 qui s' applique da nt le cat du Parklllent du Canada. et k pendant de l'aiii<:le 48, c·e~t l'arlicie 49 qui J'q.ppJlque 3\JX provinces. Alors, Cd deux :Ht lcles (ont tltC~ Lion. Ccpe.W..nt, il y lt urn: exception il <:es deu.1 articlcs•hl. C'eu l'arlieJe 50 qu.i assujcttit ccftaioes question~ il l'atticle 41. m!me lli, li premihe vue., <:t:rt4ines cks QUtl>tions qui S(lnt mcntionn6cs 8 J'arti<:le 50 pouna.ielll Ctrc amendCcs par to voie dt !'ankle 48. L 'article. SO est sp~cirJque. 11 dit que ocna..ines quC$tions., par ncmplc let fonaion:s d e ltl Reinc et la Cllurttt ~tmoditlliiC dts drolu ~~ lf~rJI$, pourront etre amcndCcs seukmcm par la. vole. de J'attide 41 ou de l'a.rllcle 42.

Le ,enateur L•mooh#IIC: Est-cc que I' article 44 s.erait a1.1ssi couvert par ('article 47?

i\t. T1133C; L'article 44 vicnt en quelque liOrtc modifier !'article 41 et vient pr6ciscf que. da115 ccttains cas. l'artide 44 s'appfique dans Jet cas de <44 et de 43, mait ne:-s 'app!lqut JX!IS cUn~ kW$ de J'aJticlc 48. AIOI'$.. l'aJticlc 47 vicnt :sim.plemcnt pt~ser. si vous vouJct, cc-que je viens d 'expliqucr britve1»ent. que d 'abord les a.rtidc:ll 41, 42 et 43 s'nppUquent d:lM les C:l.t

qui $0nt prCvu:s Cl que Ji l'on veut modifrcr par aille1.1r:s ta proo6dure d'amcndctncm t -lk·tnhl)t .• c'cst !'article 41 qui s•s~ pUque ou l'artidc: 42 et fin~&1ement, l'nrtick 41 ;HJ$$i peut 5'appliquer da ns le cas: oU on pa1le d'une rtvisioo ou d'1.1ne consolidation de la Coostitu1iot1 cUe-metnc,

Le ifn1teu.r I.Amontagn~ £::s:t.c:e qoc j'ni droit 3 une der· nietc q""tion?

U coprE:tidtbl ( lt t&.atll'u.r Hayll): Oui.

Le &enateur l.alllOIIIIgBC: L 'article 50 dit oeci et je le li' en anaJais d'abord:

An amct~dll'lelJ I to the-C<lorJ~titudon of Csnada in rtlalion to the. folk>wing matterJ mo•y be mude on.ly in liCt:ordanoc with a procedure prescribed by :section 41 « 42.

La version fran~isc ne oooti«<t pas 1'6qui\•a.lent d1.1 mot "only". Est-cc. que) d'apn.\:11 IJ\lus, lt nlot "DIIfy" danll lll \'tr.don aaglalse i:limine l'artKie 44 comp}t.lemctll ou non?

M. 1'ani: Mons:icut le prCsidcnt, je pe:nse q1.1c le :sCn.ateur La montagne a mis le doi.gt sur un ma.nquc de concordance entre Id deux ver!l;inni . 11 yen a quelqucll•l.lns d;1n;'l lc:.texte de b ri$()1ution qu'il noos raudra oorrigtf; e'en est uo ici. ~ fait. l';utiele 50 devrail dire que. toutc. modification ~:c fah unique~ ment selon lil proctdure-. En d'a~;~trcs mots., la veni<.lfl frnn~i.se devrnh c:omprendre la r~triclion qui est inclose dans !'article SO e• qu•on ne. ~trotwt pu da n$ la verSion franyaise.

Le sfnateur Trtrnbllly: A titre d'in(Qrm >~;tic)n, .'lciOn les riglei Clabo!Us JIU-r M. Pigeon, l'indicatir pl'tscnt est obligatoirc; ocla veut di1e "ol'lly".

Senator Co~ly: May I ha~e. ~ supplcmt'ntary just on that one point!

A• hob. Member: Ill the time not up, Mr. Chairman? J'b.e Joi• t Cllairm•• (Setutor Haf$): I would anume that

on Wednesday '4'hcn v.-c. reconvene at 3:30 tbc- Minister of Jutti<:c. v.-ould honour u$ wilh hit~ pre$cnce. So we would like W ttop at 4 o'<:lock and Mr. Lamontagnc. hassnother minute.

St-n111tor L•monlag:nt; I Jtm prcpn.rcd to yield so Senator Connoll)'.

IT ruducilonl Can1da. Then. section 49 that appliC$ to tht provinCe:$. So tbc&e two 4CCtH>ns are uccp4ions:. Yet tbcre i t~ one t.\:teption to tbts:e tv.·o Sle(tions. 1t is section 50 tbat provides for ceru.in tnilltento be llmcndod u.nder St(llion 41 ~·en though Ill fm~t si:g.ht some of tbc man en listed in t~eaion SO could be amcn&d u•tder secti<»• 48. Section SO is nlo~ specific. ll s-tates tt:u &Ome matte~. for instance tbc office Qi the Queen, the CarJJ,· d ian Ch:aner or Rights and Frcedoms. oouJd only be. amenltd under section 41 or .k'etion 42.

$~ator 1 . .-mlmliiJ"t: Would $C(:tion 44 bt al~o covc.red by section 471

Mr. Tu~: In~ wayuecti(ln 44 modir;cs ~:ettk>n 41&ad ~tales that in :some caK5, :section 44 :applic:.$, for 44 and 43, but DOl in the case of Sle(tioll 48. So. section 47 only .mkcs h r~c pi'Ct:i~c by ll tlltin& what I have ju~t t lpl3in-td to )'(lu, th:at, liut , sections 41, 42 and 4:l apply in <:BJes provil.lcd for a11d thal iJ oo the other hand one. want~ to modify tbc amending f0tm1la it3clf, il m1.1st be under llttti4n 41 m sectiOn 42, knowing tlml :s~ion 4 I can also apply in tbe case o{ a rev~on or a ooosolidatlon of the. constitulion itself.

SeutM L••ontqot: May I have al:ul qucst.lon?

n e Joi.nt Chair•••• (Stnalor HI)'S}: Yes, you 01*)'.

Scn•tor L• .. o•i•gne: Section ~ lltatd and I Art'l goin& tO rc.ad it in English lir'$1:

An amwdment to t.he con:stitliltion o( Canada in relation 10 the. follo,.·ing maucn may be made only in accordance with a pr()(.'Cih.lre prescribed by see~ ion <41 or 42.

Tbc French text c.kiC3 no! Jocm to W1nsJate tllc word ,_,only", A.:'OCM'dillg to you doe$ the word "only" in the English tm '

CNli$S out ()C)mpletdy s.ecdon 44! Mr. T~: Mr. Ch:!!irman. I think that ScnatO«' l amon·

ta.gne has put hi5 finger On ;e di~:e~ptlncy between the t .. ·o tCQ:t!t There are a few :such inslances in the resolution draft that we will have to conect. This is one.. Stotion 50 shQI.IId Indeed suue that an amendment m.1y be m~de o n))' in aooord· ancc with the p..ooedure. Jn othcr word.s.. the French text should include tiM: restricti<ln included in section .SO in F.ns lith.

Sea1110r Trfmbla)': For your infonnation., a"ordin& to tbe ru les by Mr. IJigoon, the present indicative i~ compulsory; it mdns"'only".

Lt siJiattur Connoully: Pui,.je pQ!il:r une que$tioo .WP• pJi mentaire & ce iu;tt'!

Unc lQh:: N'e.«-11 pas l'hcure. monsieur le prkident? Lt wprC~idut (lt sfualeur Hays): Je suppose que lorsque

n<-us nous tC'rouvuon.~ 1'i ISh 30, mercrc:di, k mini:ure de Ill Ju!stitt nous honorcra i nouvcau de :sa prCKDCC. Nous termin­er-.ln.s done i 16 heuru: M. lanw>na&rle a. enOOC'c une minute.

Le s.fnllltur Ltlmc•nl•tne: J t veux bic-n ct:dcr la parole- ilu sbl.llteur ConnoUy.

2 lO

(Twl Sfoutur Con.noMy: All right, it is 1u1 a ""'' quickie.. Tile

II'I.C:ttlvn or the WQrd ''Qnly'' il'l tht: b<".ill\1'11 11£ o( proposed Sec1ivn 50, I tal:e it SliiJ does not prcvc.nt chc uperahon of jlropo~d Scctton 44 when you uk pr6{10!1cd Section 41 , ( am rc11ll)' not a~k.ing you. Mr. Minister, I nm a~klnt , .,

Mr. Chretiert: I think we •·ill klok at thlJ pl'(lbkm ~IIU&e it i• 1 Hither tecltnital question )'W ure •~klna. Somctllnes "'C

have to look into that 3tld J do not want to make an QIY•the• cuff comment on th.ft.

• 1600

Tbr Jolat ChltaU (StMcor HaJ'II): Thnk JC* TU)' md. We pro .. oal t~ maiUUer •-e .-ould td ltim 0111 s.r..tp at " p.m. I •oukt lile to ~r tlut oommttnacnt W011kl YOit wQ ltlm to be: lwrt api11 011 WcdiiCSCI:sy at ) JoO p 1n at a wttna.'!'

Mr. Epy. Mr Ch;urm:an. 11 is not qut~c ol o'clock. I would IJkc to h.avc tbat mi.nute for Mr. McGtatb who •• nut.

'llltt Joi111 Cll11imun (Se•ut~W 11•1•}: Mr. McOr~th, you have one nll tuue.

A11 ht)ll, Mf!tnHr: One minut~, wh:&t ll fo~c.

Mr. McGrallc Mr. Chairman. I would ju111 like I he mmit~ttr eo cxr»nd on a I'C':pl)' J,e made I() • •• •

1"N J(lillt Cluirmu (StMtOf H•y•): W ell, I tl!lnk ma)'bt he had btuer not. Tbis mccti.ng standi adjotnned wntil J. • .}O JUn on Wcd.ndday afternoon.

7-11-1910

I T'!'!UiatHMJ le s~te~tt ('--I,-: Mcrti: te &Uil lri3 r.tptde. L 'i.nsutiOft

du mot ~only . au d~~~ ck l'artld~ p~6 50 n'cmpf~;hc: pu, ti jc n1c: uvmpo, l'aJipllcation de l'art•dc IX'~ 44 lonqw'Oft ~wliquc: l'artidc ptopoH Al. Ce n'cst JlllS 6 vol.l$. en ruit. que je pose li• Quhtlan, moniieur le ministri: .. .

M. CJIJ'ftlt!ll: Je crul• qu'd r:1udra rC\<oir ~c prubli!tne, c11r ~·est tmt qu~tion plutOt tedtniqut, et ~ ne \'Oudrais '*' vou11 ~potldre oornme ccla. A btOie·polirpoint.

U <'0 ... ~ ( le Wultw H_,.s): Men:i ta:uco.p. NOUI VQCU pt)Glli •• .. ,nu:uc 4t k llbfttt :l 16 bra pricl:rcs. J'aimcftif tdfiC'(tCt «1 CIII&JCIOCIII, Sou!uila-'IOid ft•"iJ ~A I 5 h J0. ft'ICI'(rtch?

M. f:pp: Momicur le ,a.,dcnt, il n 'est pas tout i fait 16 heu.res. J'ajmcrab q"~ c:cttc minute toil c60« i M. MI!Gr•th, dont e'cllt le tour.

Le C"oprtsldtlll (te .M•~t.hii!IJ H•p): Monsieur Mc<in.th, vou~: avezune minute.

U•t ' ob:: Unc t'llln11IC, c'~l ridit"le. M. MC'Cral'-: Mon11IC.11r le prbldenl, j'aimerui~ ~implemen t

que. le m1nistre d6vcl~ uno rC.IXIntU: qu'i] a faitc i . .. Lt t'(tfM'kick•t (le WuiC"•r H•J•): J 'ai rimprcuiM qu'il ne

~ut miell..ll paa. La K•ncC' n 1 ~ JIUQU'J 15 b 30. rnerc:~l.

IUA Oit HUU.

1t un~trtrl l tiiNfJ COVlA ONL r 10. C III\Mitilfl OI'Wtl.llfll"'~l .. p,.., ... ..., ()fi!C 0. 51141p1; AI'(! Stm cli• C.ll/ltlt. 45 $l!CI 6•Cowr (J(Iuli!Wllrc1 wu11 0~ C•IIM!il, lOA 057 (11 CIU ~ 111)11 f+W-011. ,.IQuv,.., U l,. COVVERWII£ SEUCEMENf .1 lft'lllllr<61le Cll.l fi+Ou ... oll&oni!O"' C<!n!Wl<o)l\ .A~rOtoo..O.....,...,f'l'll• t't Se<vocu C.1n;od.l. "s '*".,.v• ~eo•"'· ~~C-~tA OSI

WITNESS-TE:MOIN

Fr(JM tiN /kp411111MfU of Jusll«:

Mr. Ro,e:r Ta5s6,. ~pu.ty Min:istuo( J•••~«.

"'•J...W.,.... .... c ...... ~· h!Wblll .. c ...... ~ 1M Sn•ka C......, H .... Qlldow. C• ... • I lA tiS9

Ov m/nb.ti'r~ ~~~ l11 JtUII« M. Roet:r Tusf., toUt-tDiJiii"lre de 11 Jusdce..

b -•~:: C tiiCN ••1•11 ... •• l'f!il"«llil--elth C aul&, ~~-illb cl Sott• lc~ C._. .. H ... Qililio«. C. ... I lA tst