COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO ALLEGATIONS OF POLICE INEFFICIENCY IN KHAYELITSHA AND A BREAKDOWN IN RELATIONS BETWEEN THE

COMMUNITY AND POLICE IN KHAYELITSHA PHASE TWO

Test imony of L iza Grobler

Date: 14 May 2014 Source: Pages 7280-7336 of Commission t ranscr ipt

COMMISSIONER: Good morning we are going to commence th is morning with Dr Grobler is she here, would you l ike to come forward Dr Grobler. The witness is over there I ’m sure if you’ve been here before, oh okay that ’s where you si t . Mr Bishop we thought that what we would do is give you 40 minutes which you can spl i t in to 30 minutes and 10 minutes or 35 and f ive so that we don’t deprive you of r ights of re-examinat ion as previously would that be alr ight? MR BISHOP : That ’s f ine Commissioner 35/5 I th ink. COMMISSIONER: Mr Masuku, Mr Arendse would 15 minutes or i f you need 20 that would also be f ine we’re under sl ight ly less pressure today I th ink. MR MASUKU: ( Inaudible – of f mic) COMMISSIONER : Okay good excel lent wel l le t ’s start of f on that basis and then Mr Sidaki is i t you or Ms Bawa who is going to be quest ioning on behalf of the Commission in re lat ion to Dr Grobler? I t is , so would 15 minutes b e adequate for you, good excel lent .

Very welcome Dr Grobler thank you very much for a very comprehensive and detai led report . You know that these proceedings are in publ ic and that your test imony and your name may be made publ ic in the media and also in the Commission’s report , you have no object ion to that? DR GROBLER: No. COMMISSIONER: No, do you have any object ion to taking the oath, would you prefer to take an af f i rmat ion or the oath? DR GROBLER : I t doesn’t matter. LISA GROBLER (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR BISHOP MR BISHOP : Thank you Commissioner. Dr Grobler you’ve provided a CV to the Commission can you just conf i rm that the contents of that CV are correct? DR GROBLER: Do I need to expand on i t? MR BISHOP : No, no just…(intervent ion) DR GROBLER: It is correct yes. MR BISHOP : Thank you I ’m just t rying to save t ime so we’re avoid ing going through everybody’s CV. DR GROBLER: Sure. MR BISHOP : Dr Grobler you’ve conducted extensive research into pol ice

corrupt ion and cr iminal i ty in South Af r ica and the Western Cape can you just descr ibe for the Commission what the nature of that research was, what you’re invest igat ing and what methods you employed? DR GROBLER: Okay I d id an extensive qual i tat ive study on pol ice cr iminal i ty including some overseas agencies but the main focus was the South Af r ican Pol ice Service and as you said pr imari ly the Western Cape pol ice. The methodology used qual i tat ive both the l i terature study and an empir ical study focusing on interviews of people that were extremely helpfu l and useful . MR BISHOP: What type of people did you interview? DR GROBLER: Alr ight I in terviewed a wide range of people including at the t ime serving SAPS members in d i f ferent uni ts, d if ferent capacit ies. I in terviewed people in the f ie ld of pol ic ing such as researchers, people f rom the ICD, NPA, other cr iminologists, a very wide spectrum. Then perhaps most important ly I spoke to a number of pol ice of fenders who were incarcerated at the t ime in the Western Cape as wel l as for my book that was re leased last year h igh prof i le gangsters in the province also incarcerated. MR BISHOP : From your research there’s a common theme that you ment ion in your report and i t a lso came out in the test imony that the problem with pol ice corrupt ion is a problem of a few bad apples would you say that that ’s accurate based on your research? DR GROBLER: Not at a l l no, the concept of a few bad apples is usual ly thrown about af ter some or other scandal has been put out there in the publ ic and if one considers that pol ice corrupt ion is an internat ional phenomenon i t ’s not a sole ly South Af r ican phenomenon at a l l then one has to look at the prospect that i t cannot be just the individual i t is the organisat ion that contr ibutes to police cr iminal i ty. So if we would l ike to cont inue with me taphors let ’s cal l i t the bad barrel or the bad orchard. Pol ice corruption happens and is encouraged by weaknesses with in a pol ic ing environment. So yes unfortunately our pol ice forces wel l pol ice service l ikes to a lways throw out oh i t ’s a few bad apples meaning that i f those are removed f rom the service everyth ing is going to be f ine and I ’m af ra id i t doesn’t work l ike that . MR BISHOP : Your research in the Western Cape i t d idn’ t focus on Khayel i tsha specif ical ly or i t d idn’ t exclude Khayel i tsha is that c orrect? DR GROBLER: Khayel i tsha would have come up with in i l lustrat ions but the focus was not Khayel i tsha i t was the Western Cape as a whole. MR BISHOP: Based on your research is i t possib le to sort of ta lk about the prevalence of cr iminal i ty or corrupt ion with in SAPS? DR GROBLER: Alr ight the one th ing the research did reveal was that the South Af r ican Pol ice Service has got a s igni f icant problem with pol ice corrupt ion and with cr iminal i ty. In some areas, part icular ly h igh gang/high cr ime areas, i t is systemic, i t ’s entrenched and i t ’s widespread. I would just l ike to re i terate that pol ice corruption is a universal phenomenon but the extent var ies on the measures that are in p lace to actual ly deal with i t and on that note SAPS fa l ls far short . MR BISHOP: Is i t possib le to say 10% or 30% of pol ice are corrupt? DR GROBLER: Okay what the research did show was that i t depended very

much on who you spoke to because once the ant i -corrupt ion uni ts were closed down we lost a l l that informat ion, the f igures on the arr ests, on the convict ions we lost a l l that. For example if I ’d spoken to pol ice management I got again the few bad apples i t ’s a smal l percentage of our members that are corrupt . I spoke to a h igh prof i le gangster he to ld me at least 30 out of 100 he th inks are corrupt and he based that on the number of cops in h is area that were on his payrol l . So i t a l l depends on who you actual ly spoke to but scient if ical ly i t ’s d i f f icul t to put an exact f igure on to i t because some areas are worse than others too. MR BISHOP: Now in your research you ident if ied var ious types of cr iminal i ty in the pol ice can you just go through some of those types and just expla in how, for example you ment ioned defeat ing the ends of just ice, how the pol ice achieve that cr iminal i ty. DR GROBLER : Alr ight so we’re sort of breaking that into two I ’m looking at the types and the causes is that what we…(intervent ion) MR BISHOP: Just a descr ipt ion of how does i t happen, how does defeat ing the ends of just ice happen. DR GROBLER: Alr ight , let me just ident ify three main categories f i rst just for people who are not perhaps as involved in corrupt ion as I am, I mean studying i t . I t ’s your misconduct which is a b ig category. Now misconduct would refer to the breaking of procedures, ru les, regulat ions t hat sort of th ing, not doing your work, derel ict ion of duty, a l l sorts of categories fa l l under misconduct which are usual ly handled internally through discip l inary measures. Then you get corrupt ion, corrupt ion is in the course of your duty doing or not doing something for a reward, most people understand that as br ibery most ly. Your f inal one is cr iminal i ty where you basical ly have cr iminals in uniform. What we’re looking at or the research has shown that there is not a single category of cr ime that a corrupt pol iceman has not been involved in, including murder. So yes i t ’s widespread they’re involved in the Western Cape of part icular concern is the symbiot ic re lat ionship between gangs and pol ice in certa in areas. You get some pol ice stat ions where you have shi f ts, the ent i re shif t is corrupt , they are involved – where the defeat ing the ends of just ice comes in I just want to read the South Af r ican def in i t ion that comes f rom Menisci ’s ’ PhD, i t is def ined as “unlawful ly engaging in conduct which defeats or obstructs the course or the undue administrat ion of just ice that is defeat ing the ends of just ice”. I f I look at the vast amount of evidence that I was given I could qui te honest ly interpret a lot of the derel ict ion of duty in that evidence I can equate that to defeat ing the ends of just ice. There are so many complainants, deponents with in the evidence who did not get any form of just ice due to the act ions pol ice or the non -act ion of pol ice in that regard. So yes i t ’s pret ty widespread what pol ice a re involved in, I don’t know i f you want me to ment ion a couple of categories? COMMISSIONER: I f I may just interrupt i t seems to me that i t is actual ly

hopeful to d ist inguish between corrupt ion where pol ice of f icers gain some sort of value for something that they did or d idn’ t do which they ought to have done or ought not to have done f rom misconduct which can be caused by a range of other things. I may be wrong about th is but that ’s what I ’m suggest ing to you is that i t ’s hopeful to d ist inguish those beca use probably the causes of those two types of issue are dif ferent and possib ly a lso the ways in which you remedy them are di f ferent . DR GROBLER: Yes. COMMISSIONER: Would you agree with that? DR GROBLER: Yes. COMMISSIONER: That one can ta lk about corrupt ion in c ircumstances where pol ice obtain a benef i t for e i ther doing something they shouldn’ t have done or vice versa? DR GROBLER: Yes. COMMISSIONER: You agree with that? DR GROBLER: Yes. COMMISSIONER: Thank you. DR GROBLER: They are handled dif ferent ly, in terms of punishment they’ re handled dif ferent ly as wel l . COMMISSIONER: Yes. MR BISHOP: Dr Grobler maybe we should just go through some of these types of misconduct or cr iminal i t ies you ident if ied and i f you could h ighl ight whether you found evidence of th is in the documents that we’ve provided to you. Just to that Commissioner what were the documents that you looked at when you were preparing your report? DR GROBLER: Okay pr imari ly i t was the documents f rom the three pol ice stat ions Harare, Lingelethu West and Khayel i tsha and IPID docs, a l l those sort of documents. But yes there certa in ly were plenty of examples of a l l three of those categories misconduct, corrupt ion and cr iminal i ty. For example let ’s start wi th dockets there’s widespread evidence of dockets not get t ing to court , dockets not being opened, dockets being lost . Now the study, my research showed a lot of corrupt ion benef i t to pol icemen for anything f rom losing a docket to what they cal l “ t rashing” a docket so in other words i t ’s absolutely useless in a court of law. So that is, now that can be a misconduct or a corrupt ion case depending if they prove benef i t or not. MR BISHOP: But your research shows that of ten that is corrupt not merely misconduct. DR GROBLER : Ja i t ’s not a lways derel ict ion of duty i t can very wel l be, and in fact i t of ten is, a cr iminal paying for a docket basical ly. MR BISHOP: So al though i t may look l ike misconduct i t may actual ly be a form of corrupt ion i f you could f ind the facts. DR GROBLER: Ja but we can perhaps make a supposit ion that there could be corrupt ion involved in dockets. MR BISHOP: In at least some of those instances are l ikely to be corrupt ion. DR GROBLER: Ja, ja especia l ly when you can see a complainant is real ly, real ly t rying to get some sort of resul t f rom their case and just nothing, th is

just keeps gett ing hampered there has to be something more than just incompetence. Let ’s just go through the other categories your br ibery and corrupt ion in the evidence Corrupt ion, there was one case wher e pol ice refused to open a case because their f r iend, the suspect ’s f r iend worked at another pol ice stat ion that a lso feeds into pol ice cul ture, protect ing each other is strong in the pol ice. Br ibery, there was a lot of evidence around foreign -owned shops, shopkeepers. There was one incident where somebody’s car was sto len and the pol ice weren’t interested in opening a case or fo l lowing up, he found the vehic le but he needed the pol ice to col lect i t for h im and they said they won’t do i t unless he gives them R150 for braai meat a lr ight , which he did. I ’m not making a judgment cal l but i t ’s wrong but there’s a c lassic example of bribery. MR BISHOP: Just to take you back to the earl ier example of the person whose f r iend worked at a d if ferent pol ice stat ion, so corrupt ion doesn’t necessari ly have to be where money is passing hands it can be corrupt ion for some other purpose. DR GROBLER: Yes, yes. MR BISHOP: ( Inaudible – in tervent ion) DR GROBLER : I t ’s doing or not doing your duty. Now in that case i t wouldn’ t be for reward necessari ly but what he is doing is protect ing a col league i t ’s very much a part of pol ice cul ture. COMMISSIONER : Dr Grobler, a l though you’re correct that there are one or two instances I must say that my overal l impression was that there wer e surpr is ingly few al legat ions of d irect payment. There were al legat ions of thef t of th ings during searches but considering that in fact the record before the Commission comprises statements made by members of the community both to the complainant organisat ions and to the Commission and there was quite a long period of t ime when that was there but i t was quite surpr is ing to me how few actual, I mean of a l l of those smal l percentage of complaints that came in the vast major i ty of complaints were around fa i l ure to fo l low up, not opening the dockets, a shocking fa i lure to fo l low up in many, many cases. What is your comment on that I mean we’re probably ta lk ing – I speak under correct ion but probably 200 and something complaints that came direct ly to the Commission ei ther via the complainant organisat ions or through ( inaudible) of f icers and we might be ta lk ing about 10 or 15 at the most so under 5% where there is actual d irect a l legat ions of corrupt ion. DR GROBLER: Yes, you see that is the problem with corrupt i on so forgive me for my jaundiced eye but I ’m looking at i t deeper than just derel ict ion of duty, not fo l lowing up and that sort of th ing based on my research where I know that there’s a lot of the evidence shows th ings simi lar to corrupt act iv i t ies that have been proven basical ly through research. So i t ’s very d i f f icul t to say and that ’s why I keep ta lk ing about supposit ions, I can’t s i t here and say corrupt ion in Khayel i tsha is r i fe because there are not facts and f igures to back that up. But what I can say is my research has shown that throughout SAPS there’s a s igni f icant problem, and I say i t again, with in h igh cr ime/high

gang areas. So what I ’m saying is there is no reason that Khayel i tsha should be any di f ferent . COMMISSIONER: One of the stat ist ics or the surveys that is very concerning are the Transparency Internat ional Percept ion Surveys. DR GROBLER: Yes 83%. COMMISSIONER: Which suggests a very h igh percept ion, and they are measuring percept ion general ly, of corrupt ion and a lot of that is around br ibery in roadblocks and so on and so forth. DR GROBLER : I t ’s common. COMMISSIONER : But there didn’ t seem to be a f i t between that and actual ly what people came forward to complain about. DR GROBLER: Ja okay. MR BISHOP: Just on that point that there are two possib le explanat ions for that , one I mean that of ten the br ibery somet imes i t ’s f rom the pol ice are t rying to e l ic i t a br ibe f rom a member of the publ ic but of ten i t ’s a suspect who is paying a br ibe. DR GROBLER: Yes. MR BISHOP: And obviously that pe rson is not going to come forward to the Commission. DR GROBLER: No, no corrupt ion is very much about not only the person who is being corrupted but the corruptor too and they sort of seem to get lost in the process when the focus is on the individual bein g corrupted. But remember something l ike br ibery too unless somebody comes forward and says let ’s do a st ing operat ion and catch th is guy who is br ib ing me i t ’s mutual ly benef ic ial and i t happens pr imari ly at roadblocks, drunken dr iving are a great source for br ibes, drunken dr ivers. People that sort of operate under the radar, sex workers, these are al l categories of individuals who pol ice would tend to br ibe if they’re that way incl ined. MR BISHOP: Dr Grobler you also ta lk about the use of , sorry? COMMISSIONER: Sorry. DR GROBLER: Sorry Commissioner MR PIKOLI : Dr Grobler you know for every known case of misconduct or corrupt ion or cr iminal i ty, are you able to make an est imate as to how many are not known? DR GROBLER: You mean to the extent of i t? MR PIKOLI: Yes, ja. DR GROBLER : I t ’s very d i f f icul t but in some pol ice stat ions in the Western Cape i t wasn’t d if f icul t to make an est imate because the of fenders I spoke to were very open about what they were doing and how many were involved in that pol ice stat ion. As I said earl ier n ight shi f ts, there were some night shi f ts in pol ice stat ions where the whole shif t was corrupt and if somebody did come in and tr ied to stay clean or t r ied to report them they were worked out, l i tera l ly worked out of that stat ion. So i t var ies and i t a lso depends on the opportuni t ies around the stat ion for corrupt ion so i t is d i f f icul t to measure the extent in any part icular pol ice stat ion that ’s wh y I say i t ’s so important to speak to of fenders.

COMMISSIONER: On that i t was also interest ing that the Mthente research that was done behalf of the Commission, a survey produced re lat ively low levels of complaints around actual corrupt ion al though i t prod uced very h igh levels of or reasonably h igh levels of d issat isfact ion with pol ice in the sort of range of 60-66% which was the reverse of what the picture is in the Western Cape. General ly the level of corrupt ion complained of was not a s ignif icant issue. DR GROBLER: A lot of i t is under the radar, a lot – a lot of i t is under the radar. COMMISSIONER : I t is for the reasons you give but when you’re in an anonymous survey and you’re being asked do you, you know people don’t feel as vulnerable a l though another th ing that was arguably understated in that survey was that complaints around sexual vio lence, part icular ly in the household, and again the comment of the researchers was yes in a publ ic place when you’re being quest ioned you are less l ikely to admit to h ousehold vio lence than you are in a safer space. DR GROBLER: Yes. COMMISSIONER: So corrupt ion may be the same but i t was not iceable actual ly compared to for example the percept ion surveys of TI . DR GROBLER: TI ja. MR BISHOP : Dr Grobler we’re running out of t ime so and I st i l l want to deal with the causes and the recommendat ions that you made. DR GROBLER: Yes. MR BISHOP: I just want to conf i rm that you found evidence in the documents that you were provided with of problems relat ing to, that are al l – as expla ined in your report can al l be l inked to pat terns of corrupt ion or broader cr iminal i ty seemingly re lat ing to drugs, a lcohol, re lat ionships with gangs, socia l is ing with cr iminals, thef t of property or possession of sto len goods, rape and sexual assault and assault GBH, wrongful arrest and other forms of cr iminal i ty, at tempted murder. DR GROBLER: Yes I could actual ly s i t here al l day wi th examples i f we had the t ime. MR BISHOP: Yes, no I th ink what would be perhaps more product ive is to look at what are the according to your research the causes or the r isk factors that make corrupt ion more or less l ikely in part icular pol ice stat ions. DR GROBLER: Alr ight , there are a few categories in terms of r isk factors the f i rst one is your individual a lr ight , individual problems such as greed. People who come into the pol ice, greed is a major dr iving factor of corruption, people who come into the pol ice who perhaps haven’t got the same moral code as others they have less integri ty, personal problems, family problems, substance abuse, money problems and stress – f rustrat ion and stress. Then you have your task environment and that ’s get t ing back to the metaphor about the barrel that a l lows corrupt ion to happen. So for example pol ice have tremendous powers, they have tremendous power over yours and mine f reedom so that power gets abused and that very of ten comes out in assaults and that sort of th ing. There’s a tendency towards forcing the publ ic to

respect them, that a lso manifests of ten in brutal i ty and assaults. Then there’s opportuni ty, there’s huge opportuni ty for pol ice out there to be corrupt or cr iminal. Then you have elements of pol ice culture, the us versus them mental i ty, i t ’s us pol ice against society, the blue code of s i lence don’t ta lk, don’t report your f r iends and i t can be dangerous pol ice have died report ing corrupt col leagues. The one th ing that d id come through very strongly in my study around the SAPS was management issues the input was very much around incompetent managers, unski l led managers, untra in ed managers, managers who don’t care, poor commander contro l , poor supervis ion, unprofessionalism a lot of those sort of manageria l organisat ional complaints. Obviously one of the other factors which is very important is recrui tment and tra in ing and part i cular ly t ra in ing, do pol ice know their jobs, do they know their funct ion and that somet imes becomes a l i t t le b i t evident in cases l ike t raf f ic accidents. Your evidence has shown that they very of ten don’t seem to know what to do or how to handle a t raf f ic accident or other aspects of the law that came out qui te strongly. So those are your main, just some of the main contr ibutors to pol ice cr ime. MR BISHOP : And there’s no reason to th ink that those factors aren’t present in Khayel i tsha. DR GROBLER: Wel l no as I said earl ier I don’t th ink anything would be any dif ferent here no. MR BISHOP: Dr Grobler we can move now to your recommendat ions that you made, you made a very helpfu l and quite extensive l is t of recommendat ions. I ’d l ike to address i t sort of in d i f ferent phases start ing with the types of recommendat ions that could be implemented at the stat ion level by the exist ing stat ion commanders or other management f igures can you ta lk about the types of recommendat ions that could be implemented at that level ? DR GROBLER: Okay, let me just start by saying as we know pol ic ing is u l t imately a nat ional funct ion and i t is very much a wish of mine that local ly and certa in ly provincia l ly that they have more power to do their own th ing where they f ind i t necessary. But in terms of at stat ion level a start could be made by t rying to introduce professional ism again, you know speak respectfu l ly to the publ ic don’t s i t there and chew or you know just br ing in the l i t t le th ings to t ry and bui ld up professional ism which se ems to be quite lost general ly. MR BISHOP: Sorry how would deal ing with those l i t t le th ings af fect or reduce cr iminal i ty in the pol ice? DR GROBLER: Wel l what i t does is i t inst i ls pr ide, once you have a bet ter level of professional ism you are more proud about your work because as we see i t at the moment there’s major absenteeism, there’s low morale, okay lack of resources doesn’t help e i ther let ’s face i t that ’s a real i ty. But management, your better qual i ty management, bet ter supervis ion of your staf f in other words check your pocketbooks, your occurrence books, whatever you need to check, are they actual ly going to cr ime scenes, are they fo l lowing up with th ings or are they up to something else.

In terms of corrupt ion i t ’s very important to do th ings l ike behavioural prof i l ing, make better use of the complaint system. I f one of f icer is pul l ing a lo t of complaints clear ly there’s a problem so a commander should have the abi l i ty to see that and say r ight you’ve got a problem come you’re coming for counsel l ing or whatever. Deal with substance abuse, I th ink random drug test ing should be an absolute given and as far as I know i t ’s not happening because substance abuse is a problem in SAPS, both drugs and alcohol. L i festyle survei l lance, in one case at a p art icular pol ice stat ion the junior pol ice were dr iving around in these smart cars and nobody stopped and asked them where do they get the funds to buy th is kind of th ing and they were al l involved in cr iminal act ivi ty. So l i festyle survei l lance, go to yo ur staf f ’s houses go and have tea with them, see how they l ive, see how they dress. There is a myriad of th ings they can do at stat ion level but there’s a lo t of b igger th ings that need to be done f rom nat ional to be t r ickled down. MR BISHOP : Let ’s move up one level to the provincia l management are there any steps that the SAPS at the provincia l level could be taking? DR GROBLER : Wel l you know as I said because i t ’s a nat ional funct ion I ’m not sure how much in i t iat ive the provincia l commanders are al lowed to use but I just s incerely hope because i t ’s such a hierarchical structure that they can actual ly devolve some, a l low provinces to put in their own programs for example and make use of people in the f ie ld. I real ly admire General Lamoer for saying on a publ ic p latform that he knows that he has corrupt of f icers in the province and he should be al lowed to deal with i t in h is own way. I mean he is a seasoned pol iceman he knows what he’s doing he should be al lowed to formulate programs. Another b ig problem is – sorry we’re rushing for t ime here – is that I ’ve had commanders come to me and say I know that I ’ve got bad cops in my command but I don’t know what to look for, I don’t know what to do. So one th ing General Lamoer could certa in ly do was to set up so me sort of a t ra in ing program making use of people in the f ie ld to educate commanders and rookies about what corrupt ion is. I think that – but yet again there’s got to be pol i t ical wi l l and i t ’s not present. MR BISHOP: Moving up again f rom the provincia l to the nat ional level because a lot of your recommendat ions seem would require intervent ion f rom SAPS at the nat ional level . DR GROBLER: Ja. MR BISHOP: Can you just h ighl ight some of those that would be the most ef fect ive in your view. DR GROBLER : Alr ight , wel l I ’ve been cal l ing – you know th is has been a bat t le, th is has been a part of my l i fe for probably 11 years now and I have been cal l ing for a commission of enquiry but a proper commission of enquiry with broad terms of reference, not that th is isn’ t a proper Commission of Enquiry, but i f I look at some of the others i t ’s problemat ic; with very broad terms of reference as to t ry and determine the extent and the nature of corrupt ion and cr iminal i ty with in the SAPS at present. Fai l ing that , som e sort of a review at least of pol ic ing because remember af ter Marikana and Mado

Masia those incidents and Andries Tatane there was a cal l for a commission of enquiry into brutal i ty. Brutal i ty is only one aspect of what ’s happening in the pol ice today there needs to be a much broader commission of enquiry into i t or a review into i t . We need to get a lot f i rmer on th ings l ike substance abuse, integri ty test ing…(intervent ion) MR BISHOP: Sorry Dr Grobler, sorry before you go on just to come back to the commission of enquiry have any other countr ies had commissions of enquiry into pol ice ( indist inct) and corrupt ion and what were the ef fects of those commissions? DR GROBLER: Yes absolute ly there are three other police agencies I focused on in my or iginal resea rch was the NYPD, London’s Metropol i tan Pol ice and New South Wales Pol ice Force. They have al l had, NYPD had the Napp Commission in the 70’s and the Mol len(?) Commission 20 years later and they exposed, they had very broad terms of reference they exposed exact ly what was going on in the New York Pol ice Department and they put measures in p lace. Look you’re never going to eradicate pol ice corrupt ion i t ’s too integral a part of pol ic ing but they put in p lace measures to t ry and l imit the damage and to have more ef fect ive oversight and contro l over corrupt ion, which again is lacking in SAPS. COMMISSIONER: One of the th ings that I f ind surpr is ing in your report was the fact that you didn’ t real ly look at structural issues. I t seems to me that isn’ t that real ly what one is looking at , one is looking at some ef fect ive systems to address corrupt ion when i t happens. I ’m not qui te sure why we need to know – corrupt ion is very resistant to determining exact ly how much i t is and where i t is and I ’m not sure that i t helps when you f ind out that there is 30% or 40% or 60% of pol ice of f icers who are corrupt . What seems to me does help is to crease structural systemic inst i tut ions and pract ices that address i t regardless of how much there is. DR GROBLER: Ja. COMMISSIONER : And yet that doesn’t seem to be the focus of what you’re suggest ing. DR GROBLER: Okay also in my report what I do suggest in that sense is the need again for an independent wel l - resourced ant i -corrupt ion uni t which we used to have and we had, as Commissioner Pikol i can test i fy, we had a wonderfu l organisat ion cal led the Scorpions who were extremely ef fect ive and unfortunately that is, the SAPS react ion to that they closed both of them down. Now we need, what they can do in the inter im is const i tute som ething l ike a professional standards uni t or a pol ice professional board, professional pol ice board or something in the meant ime just so that there is something out there that can have more contro l over d iscip l inary issues… COMMISSIONER: What do you mean by “ in the meant ime”, in the meant ime unt i l what? DR GROBLER : Sort of immediately because I know we’re not going to get another ant i -corrupt ion uni t any t ime soon, we’re not going to get another outf i t l ike the Scorpions any t ime soon so something needs to be done

immediately to t ry and increase professional ism with in the service. COMMISSIONER : I mean isn’ t the way to th ink about th is that we’ve got a const i tut ional f ramework which clear ly contemplates a t ransparent, accountable, responsive, non -corrupt publ ic service including securi ty services and what inst i tut ions are in p lace or should be in p lace to ensure that that is required and then looking at the gaps rather than doing more fact -f inding? DR GROBLER : Yes I th ink we need to use what we’ve got but I do n’t honest ly bel ieve that what we’ve got is opt imal at a l l in deal ing with th is scourge I don’t bel ieve i t . We had IPID which to my mind is probably the most ef fect ive but they… COMMISSIONER: Is probably what? DR GROBLER: Is probably the most ef fect ive oversight body we have at the moment but they also have their l imitat ions so we need something very much along the l ines of the ant i -corrupt ion uni t we had which was hugely ef fect ive. COMMISSIONER: What is your reason for saying IPID is the most ef fect ive oversight body? DR GROBLER: Wel l I th ink in terms of their powers and their abi l i ty to invest igate outside of the pol ice to me they’re the most ef fect ive. COMMISSIONER: Because certa in ly in evidence before the Commission have re lat ive few resources to address…(intervent ion) DR GROBLER : Yes that ’s the problem. COMMISSIONER : So i t doesn’t seem as if , a l though you may have good powers i f you haven’t got resources i t ’s qui te d if f icul t to be very ef fect ive. DR GROBLER: Ja so i t just real ly i l lustrates the dearth o f what we have out there in terms of oversight and accountabi l i ty for pol ice cr ime. MR BISHOP: Dr Grobler would you say that in order to tackle pol ice corrupt ion there needs to be if necessary pol i t ical wi l l to do so? DR GROBLER: Yes. MR BISHOP: The purpose of the commission of enquiry that you’re suggest ing that was held in other countr ies wasn’t sole ly to gather research or informat ion about pol ice corrupt ion but a lso to galvanise so to speak the pol i t ical world to change and to consider what the possib le solut ions are. DR GROBLER: Ja they also, I had an interview with the Deputy Commissioner of the Metropol i tan Pol ice and he was instrumental in set t ing wheels in mot ion to deal with corrupt ion in the Met at that point . He experienced enormous resistance f r om not only h is superiors but pol i t ic ians as wel l because no pol ice agency wants a scandal but he pushed ahead and they developed something, created something cal led the “Ghost Squad”. Now I haven’t got t ime now to go into i t but they were hugely ef fect iv e i t was a covert operat ion run by pol ice but for a l l in tents and purposes they didn’t exist on paper and they did survei l lance on the pol ice that were suspected of being corrupt and the corrupt , the people who were corrupt ing the police which is very important and they uncovered a huge amount of problems specif ical ly in and around drugs in London. But that br ings you back to integri ty test ing which is a lso a highly ef fect ive measure that a l l of these

pol ic ing agencies used to t ry and root out corrupt of f i cers and we have nothing l ike that , nothing. We don’t even have much of an admission that we have a problem so yes pol i t ical wi l l is lacking. MR BISHOP: And a commission of enquiry might be useful in creat ing the space in which those reforms could be made . DR GROBLER: Absolute ly ja, yes because the idea is to get i t into the publ ic domain, keep i t in the publ ic domain so that there’s enough pressure on pol ice management and the pol i t ic ians to start doing something about i t but i t ’s been an incredib ly f rust rat ing journey and nothing has changed. MR BISHOP: Are there any other recommendat ions that you have at the nat ional level , you ment ioned integri ty test ing, commission of enquiry, an independent ant i -corrupt ion uni t you also ta lked about tra in ing in your r eport . DR GROBLER: Okay ja there are other th ings that have come up too which are more sort of leaning on the operat ional s ide which isn’ t my strength but they al l do feed into corrupt ion issues such as the gr ievance procedure for example needs to be simpl if ied, promot ions are a great source of stress for many of f icers. The discip l inary measures need to be simpl if ied…(intervent ion) MR BISHOP: Can you just expla in why simpl i f icat ion would help? DR GROBLER: I th ink because i t appears to be problemat ic, d iscip l ine doesn’t a lways, one th ing the evidence has shown too in f ront of the Commission discip l ine isn’ t a lways handed out fu l l stop, i t ’s not a lways handed out fa ir ly. The same with complaints I don’t th ink the complaints are – the complaint mechanisms are being appl ied f ract ional ly they’re not being appl ied opt imal ly and a lot of the examples have shown that in many cases just the of f icer ’s word is being taken and that ’s the end of the complaint. The complainant hasn’t been sat isf ied that just ice has been done. But in terms of d iscip l ine one th ing that came through quite strongly in the research was a cal l for a separate uni t wi th in the pol ice i t doesn’t have to be an outside uni t , within the pol ice to hand, purely to handle complaints and discip l ine because not everybody l ikes to do that k ind of a job. Some commanders f ind i t very hard to d iscip l ine their staf f , others don’t have a problem with i t so i t ’s a management style th ing and a lot of the people who were interviewed fe l t that perhaps removing i t out of the immediate environment, out of the pol ice stat ion would be more ef fectual so that was… COMMISSIONER: Dr Grobler should we not separate complaints f rom discip l ine in a sense that because complaints are real ly about the publ ic service aspect and some of them may be very ser ious I mean maybe very serious cr imes have been commit ted, that i t ’s important for publ ic percept ions of t rust and re l iabi l i ty to see a fa ir process being dealt wi th whereas internal issues of d iscip l ine which are not ar is ing f rom outside may i tsel f require a d if ferent approach than is current ly underway but that ’s a dif ferent matter. I certa in ly am concerned about complaints and the percept ion or manner in which complaints are dealt wi th and you’re r ight to say that a very s igni f icant number of complaints that ar ise out of the Khayel i tsha pol ice stat ions which the Commission has looked at resul t in no

steps being taken by and large because i t seems that the version of the SAPS member is accepted and the member of the publ ic i s not accepted and i t ’s of ten a you know “you did” “you didn’ t ” k ind of s i tuat ion. DR GROBLER: Yes. COMMISSIONER: That worr ies me because i t seems that that may be something that might need some agency which is independent, or not independent but with in SAPS but separated out f rom the staf f or members of the pol ice stat ion. DR GROBLER : Yes I th ink i t ’s important on that note that when a complaint comes to the fore i t should be determined whether this is a complaint that can be handled by counsel l ing or whet her i t ’s something more ser ious, I th ink i t ’s very important to make that d ist inct ion. I f you have a separate discip l inary uni t they must look at the complaints that are more ser ious that involve pol ice brutal i ty or possib le crime. COMMISSIONER: I t somet imes not so easy to draw that d ist inct ion because as one of the HR experts who test i f ied on Monday made the point that once you’ve got three complaints which might, i f they only happened once const i tute counsel l ing, but you’re gett ing a pat tern of behaviour i t actual ly is an escalat ing si tuat ion and you may need to deal with i t d if ferent ly. DR GROBLER: Yes. COMMISSIONER : So somet imes i t ’s not so easy to separate i t ’s not just on what the nature of the conduct is but perhaps a repeat person who is constant ly been the subject of an of fence. DR GROBLER : Yes i t ’s a behavioural prof i l ing that needs to come in ja but i t certa in ly needs to be looked at and i t needs to change, something needs to be done about i t at the moment i t does appear to be inef fectual , the complaint system. COMMISSIONER: Very much into your point about the blue l ine of loyal ty whatever you cal l i t the idea that we don’t easi ly f ind members who have not acted in accordance with the code of conduct or improperly because we are an inst i tut ion that ’s doing a very d i f f icul t job and we need to be protect ing our members. DR GROBLER: Yes. MR BISHOP: Dr Grobler just one more quest ion is there anything that other exist ing ro le p layers in the cr iminal just ice system, for example DOCS, could be doing to address cr iminal i ty and corrupt ion? DR GROBLER: Ja I th ink that there are going to be others who can probably expand much more on DOCS than I can but I th ink i t ’s a good th ing that they have now got an ombud to handle the complaints through DOCS. I th ink i t ’ s a very good th ing but I ’m just hoping that yet again i t ’s not inef fectual that they actual ly do work together with the pol ice to strengthen the whole complaints environment so they have got a p lace yes def in i te ly. MR BISHOP: Thank you Commissioner I just want to have f ive minutes for re -examinat ion I know I ’ve gone sl ight ly over my t ime. COMMISSIONER : Thank you Mr Bishop I ’m sure we’ l l manage. MR BISHOP: Thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BISHOP COMMISSIONER: Mr Sidaki , oh sorry. MR PIKOLI: I f we were to accept the not ion of the rot ten barrel or orchard is i t your view that the r isk factors that you have ment ioned if they were to be indicated that would deal with the barrel or orchard? DR GROBLER: I t wi l l certa in ly go a long way in help ing yes, yes. O ur biggest problem at the moment Commissioner is that the pol ice don’t seem to have much in the way of prevent ion at a l l for corrupt ion. What the pol ice are doing they are arrest ing a lot of their col leagues and that is very heartening but to the best of my knowledge that’s i t . There has been an ant i -corrupt ion strategy on the table s ince 1999 in var ious forms and guises that st i l l hasn’t been fu l ly implemented and if that was fu l ly implemented i t would also go a long way in t rying to prevent th is. But ye s al l those cleaning out the barrel , that ’s i f we’re st icking to metaphors, I th ink al l those th ings that have been mentioned wi l l because most of th is informat ion comes f rom either internat ional studies or f rom interviews with a wide range of people and t hese are al l suggest ions that come f rom them so yes very much so. We know what to do but i t ’s not being done. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SIDAKI MR SIDAKI : Thank you Madam Chair. Dr Grobler i t seems to me that just l is tening to your evidence the sort of cont r ibut ing, to sum up the contr ibut ing factors that would lead to an environment of potent ia l corrupt ion would be th ings l ike lack of t ransparency in an organisat ion l ike the South Afr ican Pol ice Service would you agree? DR GROBLER: Yes. MR SIDAKI : Lack of accountabi l i ty? DR GROBLER: Yes, impunity. MR SIDAKI : Impunity, poor management team in a l l of i ts facets real ly as you described. DR GROBLER: Yes would you l ike me to expand on that? MR SIDAKI : Yes, yes. DR GROBLER: Yes okay, I th ink i f we are real ist ic and we take an honest look at ourselves we do not have strong leadership wi th in the SAPS at the moment at a l l there is just too much noise at head of f ice. There is too much deviance one just needs to look at cr ime inte l l igence to see as a measure of the state which SAPS are in at the moment. What as an organisat ion may need is strong f i rm good leadership so that they can get good fo l lowers real ly and at the moment we don’t have that and i t is perpetuated by the cont inual scandals coming out of the South A f rican Pol ice Service. MR SIDAKI : I don’t know i f you had sight of the inspect ion reports for instance. DR GROBLER : Yes I haven’t even referred to them, ja I have yes especia l ly f rom Mr Tshabalala, Colonel Tshabalala report yes. MR SIDAKI : The Tshabalala report . DR GROBLER: Which is very concerning in i ts own r ight what the pol ice themselves found around many issues.

MR SIDAKI : Yes but the point there being and especia l ly with the other reports that get generated by the local provincia l inspectorate is that issues of poor management, poor accountabi l i ty get ra ised over and over and yet they don’t seem to get addressed. DR GROBLER : Yes, yes again i t boi ls down to, wel l le t ’s just cal l i t the wi l l to change alr ight , I ’ve just found general ly and as I say th is has been a long road, I have just found general ly that the pol ice react ion across the board to issues of corrupt ion and cr iminal i ty with in their ranks is okay I don’t want to see th is p lease just make i t go away. That is the percept ion I get about their – there is absolute ly no indicat ion at a l l that they would want to start scratching to see what is happening, how extensive i t is and how serious i t is , there is no indicat ion of that. MR SIDAKI : Yes, there was evidence for instance by a Colonel Marais who is the branch commander of Khayel i tsha pol ice stat ion and he made an example of an incident of corrupt ion i t ’s on page 3948 of the record Madam Chair where, 3946 I beg your pardon where he states that he invest igated a case and the circumstances of the cor rupt ion were that the pol ice of f icers involved had stopped a vehic le indicat ing to the dr iver that that dr iver had skipped a robot at a stop street and then convincing him through their powers that they did not have to arrest h im if he pays up money. So t hey ended up taking him to the local ATM where he withdrew money and handed the money over. Fortunately or unfortunately for the pol ice there were other law enforcement of f icers who were alerted to th is and th is was reported. These pol ice of f icers f rom Khayel i tsha pol ice stat ion were eventual ly convicted of corrupt ion and sentenced to seven years’ imprisonment I th ink i t was. So that ’s just yet another example of the ser ious corrupt ion that is present in Khayel i tsha. DR GROBLER : Yes and that ’s one of the cases where somebody was actual ly reported and i t went through al l the way to the court so that is heartening. MR SIDAKI : Yes and certa in ly there was also the evidence of Colonel Tobias who used to be the branch commander of Harare pol ice stat ion. When we went through the SCCF meet ings, meet ing minutes of that stat ion the issue of corrupt ion was ra ised at the SCCF meet ing on each and every occasion and his evidence was that i t was a standing i tem on the minutes because of the prevalence of the of fence, you r comment on that? DR GROBLER : Yes you see i t ’s very heartening to hear that there are so many commanders that are conscious of i t and including as I said earl ier General Arno Lamoer he is conscious of i t but the quest ion remains, okay you said i t ’s on eve ry s ingle agenda the issue of corrupt ion but what is being done about i t . As I said they are arrest ing their col leagues I mean I th ink in the last annual report of the pol ice there’s something l ike 8 800 cr iminal cases against pol ice, that is huge by any standard i t ’s absolute ly huge. So they are arrest ing their col leagues but that ’s not enough you can arrest 157 000 pol ice serving of f icers i f you feel l ike i t i t ’s st i l l not going to change anything unless they start doing something about i t , putt ing meas ures in p lace to reduce the incidence of corrupt ion. Another problem on that note is how many, let ’s look at a rookie who is jo in ing the pol ice he goes to col lege

what eth ics t ra in ing is there for h im, what t ra in ing is there about corruption. They need to br ing in these of fenders to teach the rookies the consequences of corrupt ion and what i t is .

In the SAPS code of conduct there’s one l ine that says “avoid corrupt ion and arrest those that partake in i t ” a lr ight , i f you as a pol iceman don’t know what co rrupt ion is and they get held to account on that part icular l ine what deterrent is that for you, what does that te l l you. So you’re looking at two th ings here you’re looking at the understanding of corrupt ion, as I said earl ier about the commanders who ha ve said to me they know they’ve got corrupt ion in their commands but they don’t know what to look for that ’s the one th ing. On the other stream is what to do about i t and at th is stage SAPS is more incl ined to not do anything and just keep i t on the agend a than act ively going af ter i t . MR SIDAKI : Yes now you stated that maybe the problem could be bigger than the local pol ice or the provincia l pol ice but certa in ly what should be wi th in the competency of the local managers and the provincia l managers would b e i f they strengthened the systems by just a l lowing oversight and monitor ing…(intervent ion) DR GROBLER: Control . MR SIDAKI : And contro l with in their areas of competency a lot could be done to at least minimise the potent ia l for corrupt ion. DR GROBLER: Absolute ly middle management and management as I say in the research did not come out wel l and if wi th in pol ice stat ions, with in commands as I said every commander has got a d if ferent management style and there are a myriad problems with in a part icular pol ice stat ion. Like I spoke to some of fenders and found, and tr ied to get a sense of why they were not get t ing discip l ined for example, why certa in members were being favoured, why they were not get t ing discip l ined for some serious t ransgression. They said to m e very of ten a senior manager starts of f in the junior ranks and as they put i t in the junior ranks most of them or many of them were naughty and then once the of f icer moves through the ranks obviously there is no, he is more professional he doesn’t get in volved in d ishonesty or whatever but those junior ranks that stay behind wi l l a lways have a hold on a senior manager a lso for var ious reasons. For example they said to me a commander could be using drugs and he doesn’t want that to come out so he wi l l say r ight you discip l ine me and I ’ l l make sure I wi l l br ing that out There are many reasons but yes those who are determined to do something with in their own stat ion should just start by upping the professional ism for a start , bet ter supervis ion, bet ter comm and and contro l and also better corrupt ion contro ls l ike behavioural prof i l ing for example, there’s a lot they can do. MR SIDAKI : Issues of oversight and monitor ing by independent bodies for instance unannounced vis i ts to pol ice stat ions how far would that measure go in deal ing with such issues? DR GROBLER: Okay I know that at the moment DOCS has got an in i t iat ive

where civi l ians are going into pol ice stat ions I th ink somet imes once or twice a month uncal led, not having waned that they are coming to do i t . Then they go and take some of f icers through problems in the pol ice stat ion f rom the sales to books and that sort of th ing, there is something l ike that on the table. But yes unannounced vis i ts are obviously far more ef fect ive than announced vis i ts but aga in i f one looks at SAPS’ react ion, i f you look at Riah Phiyega’s react ion to the civi l ians that are going in and doing inspect ions i t was, you know her react ion was what do these people th ink they’re doing they’re p imping on the pol ice. So we’ve got a maj or problem in terms of taking ownership of problems in the SAPS by senior management. MR SIDAKI : Thank you ma’am, thank you Madam Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIDAKI COMMISSIONER: Thanks Mr Sidaki . Mr Masuku? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MASUKU MR MASUKU: Yes thank you. Dr Grobler I ’m not going to engage with you on the theories that you have about pol ice corrupt ion and the at t i tude of the pol ice towards corrupt ion. What I want to put to you is th is proposit ion, the pol ice are as concerned as you are about pol ice corrupt ion i t makes their job easier, i t makes their work credib le, i t makes their work more ef fect ive. So the suggest ion that you make which is that the pol ice are not – and I mean you go as far as ment ioning Phiyega the nat ional Commissioner t hat they are not interested in corrupt ion in my view is an i rresponsib le submission made by an expert . DR GROBLER : I don’t th ink those were my exact words but that ’s your in terpretat ion. MR MASUKU: I wi l l take you to a point which you made that in l ight of the evidence you have given is unjust i f iable. In page 41 of your report in paragraph 134 you make a bald assert ion that there is no leadership on the issue of pol ice corrupt ion and criminal i ty besides the old sound bi tes “corrupt ion wi l l not be to lerated”. That is an i rresponsib le statement to make in l ight of what you say about General Lamoer, you say General Lamoer in your evidence that i t ’s heartening that he appears to be aware that there is corrupt ion in h is ranks am I correct? DR GROBLER : Did you say he’s hardly aware of i t? MR MASUKU: No, no he is. DR GROBLER: He is aware of i t . MR MASUKU: He is aware of i t . DR GROBLER: Yes. MR MASUKU: But how can you make that statement that there is no leadership on the issue of pol ice corrupt ion? DR GROBLER: Because sir my point is what exact ly are the pol ice doing about i t nobody is and let ’s face i t , sorry let ’s face i t what do we hear every t ime there’s a major scandal in the media and some important person in SAPS makes a comment wha t do we hear? MR MASUKU : Look I don’t th ink that the Commission is interested about what the media and who else says.

DR GROBLER : No what we hear is i t ’s a few bad apples. MR MASUKU: Ja but Dr Grobler you come here as an expert what you provide to th is Commission is very, very valuable expert views on i t . DR GROBLER : Yes that ’s my expert view. MR MASUKU : No it ’s not an expert view i t ’s a media ( indist inct) that there is no leadership in SAPS. DR GROBLER : I t ’s st i l l my view with or without the media, i t ’s st i l l my view. MR MASUKU : That’s not an expert view. DR GROBLER : Wel l then I ’m not an expert but that ’s my view. MR MASUKU: Can I test that with you? DR GROBLER: Yes. MR MASUKU: Because Madam Commissioner said to you that the evidence about Khayel i tsha which is the focus of th is Commission was that there is no big surpr ise which is qui te interest ing, that she expressed surpr ised that there is not too much, there was no evidence of pol ice corrupt ion of the nature that you portrayed in the three stat ions. In f act my f r iend here refers you to one which involved the pol ice which the pol ice were able to arrest and get convict ions on. Your comment to that was I cannot say with certa inty, in fact I th ink I probably wrote i t you said “ there are no facts and f igures to support the al legat ion that corrupt ion is r i fe in Khayel i tsha” which is correct . So what you have done is in your approach is that you have taken corrupt ion at a nat ional level or your views on pol ice corrupt ion at nat ional level and you have said wow i t ’s so bad in the orchard i t ’s impossib le that there is th is l i t t le corner of the Western Cape that there cannot be such corrupt ion. I t has to be, there has to be corrupt ion which ref lects your v iew of the nat ional out look. That ’s not the r ight approach especia l ly i f you know what the terms of reference of th is Commission are. DR GROBLER: Okay let me respond to that . MR MASUKU: Yes please. DR GROBLER : You’re saying that basical ly I ’m saying there’s no evidence of corrupt ion in Khayel i tsha is that what yo u’re saying? MR MASUKU : That’s what you say, you say…(intervent ion) DR GROBLER : Is that what you’re saying? MR MASUKU : What you said was “there are no facts and f igures to support the al legat ions that corrupt ion is r i fe in Khayel i tsha”. Your approach was to analyse corrupt ion nat ional ly. DR GROBLER: Yes. MR MASUKU: And then to say wel l the nat ional atmosphere is terr ib le with corrupt ion i t must be in Khayel i tsha, despite what Madam Chair says to you, i t must be that in Khayel i tsha there is corrupt ion and c orrupt ion is r i fe. DR GROBLER: Alright , let me just say th is my research is based on empirical evidence f i rst ly so i t ’s not a guess, i t ’s not pul l ing i t out of the air what I ’m saying is my research has found empir ical ly that corrupt ion is b ig in the Weste rn Cape in certa in areas where there’s a h igh cr ime and a high gang problem alr ight those are my words. And to the best of my knowledge Khayel i tsha has cr ime problems and i t has gang problems therefore I cannot

see scient if ical ly why Khayel i tsha should be any dif ferent f rom any other area in the Western Cape that has the same problem. Now what I ’ve done in my report , i f you’ve been through my report I have taken elements of the evidence where there is def in i te ly corrupt ion or cr ime with in Khayel i tsha precinct and I ’ve put i t in my report such as something l ike thef t which does appear to be a problem emanat ing f rom the evidence. So…(intervent ion) MR MASUKU : You see I understand you…(intervent ion) DR GROBLER : That ’s factual . MR MASUKU: Yes I understand your approach and I read your report so al l I ’m trying to say to you is that your approach in t rying to assist the Commission understand what solut ions they need to come up with is very unhelpful because what you’ve done is you’ve suddenly – what you’ve done is you have taken exact ly the approach that you say but I don’t th ink that there is empir ical evidence that you have come up with in your studies that would support that corrupt ion is r i fe in Khayel i tsha. DR GROBLER : No you see we’re deal ing with semant ics h ere nobody is saying i t ’s r i fe but what I am saying is that i t does exist here. MR MASUKU : Yes, no I mean I th ink your start ing point was…(intervent ion) DR GROBLER : I t ’s semant ics. MR MASUKU: Yes your start ing point was a very fa ir one because you said corrupt ion exists global ly in the pol ice and South Af r ica is not a…(intervent ion) DR GROBLER: An is land. MR MASUKU : An except ion to that and i t ’s something that we accept and I mean you would know that the pol ice were very upf ront and very candid with the Commission about the weaknesses that exist in the pol ice. There was no lack of t ransparency in the manner in which the pol ice dealt wi th the Commission to the extent that informat ion was required. Most of the evidence of systemic weaknesses with in the pol ic e came f rom the pol ice reports themselves. In other words i t was the pol ice doing i ts work ident ifying inst i tut ional weaknesses saying to themselves th is is where we lack. I ’m trying to say to you that your statement that there is a lack of in terest by the pol ice in corrupt ion is wrong. DR GROBLER: I cannot agree with you. MR MASUKU: Then I just a lso want to test your other theory, you say that – in fact in your report you refer, you start of f wi th the nat ional scandals, you cal l them scandals the high prof i le scandals, what is very c lear f rom those high prof i le scandals is that i t is the pol ice who arrest , i t is the pol ice who col lect the evidence and if Selebi went to ja i l i t was the pol ice who played a very essent ia l port ion of i t . I cannot accept that is a demonstrat ion, that is just one example is inconsistent with your statement that there is no leadership on the issue of pol ice corrupt ion. DR GROBLER: As I said I th ink perhaps more than once in my evidence th is morning the pol ice are arrest ing their col leagues I ’ve made that qui te c lear but I ’ve also made i t qui te c lear that that is where i t ends there isn’ t much in the form of preventat ive measures, knowledge of the extent of the problem

out there so yes I have covered that . COMMISSIONER: You know Dr Grobler i f I could just interrupt because in a sense what you’re saying is a paradox there’s nothing more ser ious than arrest ing somebody and sending them to ja i l for corrupt ion and what you’re saying is missing is at least f rom the perspect ive of people who have commit ted corrupt ion is far less ser ious in the impl icat ions ( inaudible). I f one is th inking about deterrence you know you would have thought that there’s a very large number of people arrested and we’ve got evidence before us Brigadier Dladla fo r example ta lked about two members at h is pol ice stat ion who had been convicted and imprisoned for corrupt ion. But i f that ’s so, and th is is the paradox, why is i t that you say that there isn’ t suf f ic ient inst i tut ional response and that the inst i tut ion i t self st i l l as i t were to lerates or faci l i tates corrupt ion? DR GROBLER: Okay precisely because my focus in that regard is on prevent ing i t , reducing i t , deal ing with i t and one of the ways of deal ing with i t which I have said numerous t imes and is fantast ic is the fact that they are arrest ing corrupt col leagues, they are. But my major concern is that a lot more needs to be done to prevent these of f icers f rom becoming corrupt in the f i rst p lace, that is my point . Yes of course they’re taking i t ser iously in the sense that i t ’s giv ing them a bad name but a lot more needs to be done so that they don’t have to go around arrest ing col leagues. COMMISSIONER: If you were to have a meet ing with the three stat ion commanders in Khayel i tsha what would you te l l them wou ld be the three or f ive th ings that they should do to do that? DR GROBLER : Okay there would probably be a lot more than that but let ’s look at – going back to what I said earl ier about being able to a lmost contain that with in a police stat ion environment a nd that is to start wi th your professional ism. Alr ight let ’s start wi th the code of conduct, i t ’s a very, very important p iece of l i terature i f one can cal l i t that, i t ’s a very important f lag to hold up to pol ice to fo l low to do ef fect ive pol ic ing, i t is very good. But in order for i t to be ef fect ive pol ice have to understand what i t means and with in that code of conduct they refer to eth ical behaviour and they refer to combat ing corrupt ion. Now as I said earl ier does everybody in that pol ice stat ion know what corrupt ion is? Does everybody in that pol ice stat ion in terms of management know how to ident ify i t , I don’t bel ieve that ’s the case and I stand by that . I f they were good managers and good leaders they would know how to ident ify i t and deal with i t immediately, the same with complaints, the same with d iscip l ine, they need to professional ise a lot more. Yes, may I just add a caveat here please i t is not a l l pol ice that are corrupt i t is ef fect ively a smal l percentage of them giving the organisat io n a bad name. The point I ’m trying to make is start wi th in your stat ions and if there’s a problem do some behavioural prof i l ing, i f there is a problem, counsel, st rengthen psychological care. Another th ing that pol ice need to do that they can also do in their immediate environment is protect whist le -blowers. Now I can te l l you whist le -blowers are not being protected I mean I ’ve got SAPS here they’re not being protected I have seen so many cases where whist le -

blowers have been f i red for a lways ostensib ly n ot going through the correct channels. Good cops, good cops are lost because they’ve come out with th ings that people don’t want to hear. So there are so many th ings wi th in that immediate envi ronment they can do. COMMISSIONER : I t ’s very much a management task you’re ta lk ing about. DR GROBLER: Absolute ly, absolute ly. COMMISSIONER: Mr Masuku? MR MASUKU : Thank you. Now there’s a concern which I th ink the Commission wi l l be grappl ing with when they do their report and i t is the comment that you make which is that the pol ice appear to be, at least General Lamoer, let me st ick to General Lamoer because that ’s a b i t more clear. General Lamoer is aware of the problem of corrupt ion with in the pol ice and when you were asked by my learned f r iend Sidaki about the, w hen you were asked to propose a solut ion that could make that awareness be t ranslated into act ion you said General Lamoer should be al lowed to deal with corrupt pol ice. Now am I correct that that ’s your view that at least…(intervent ion) DR GROBLER: He is deal ing with corrupt pol ice. MR MASUKU: He is? DR GROBLER: Yes. MR MASUKU: He is deal ing with pol ice corrupt ion? DR GROBLER : Wel l h is of f icers are arrest ing their col leagues, what I ’m saying is he should be al lowed to create his own programs or h is own trai n ing programs which are province -specif ic to t ry and reduce the incidence of corrupt ion ja. MR MASUKU: So now just help us here who should al low him to do that? DR GROBLER: National. MR MASUKU: Are you saying that the nat ional pol ice are not a l lowing General Lamoer to develop his own provincia l project on combat ing corrupt ion? DR GROBLER: Did I say that? MR MASUKU : I ’m asking you a question. DR GROBLER : No I d idn’ t say that what I ’m saying is i f he’s not a l lowed to he should be al lowed to. MR MASUKU: No but are you saying he’s not a l lowed? DR GROBLER: No. MR MASUKU: Do you know any, in your studies do you know any laws, any nat ional instruct ions, any pol ic ies that would prohib i t General Lamoer f rom tackl ing cr ime ef fect ively with in the exist ing legis lat ive f ramework? DR GROBLER : No what I ’m saying is i f , what I ’m saying in terms of corrupt ion if nat ional is not perhaps doing something they should be doing and General Lamoer feels he could be doing i t then he should be al lowed to do i t i f that makes any sense. MR MASUKU: Well I would put i t to you that there is nothing in the current legis lat ion that deals with corrupt ion that requires any, in fact you are not able to suggest any that would require a d if ferent approach other than the

approach of invest igat ing corrupt ion, arrest ing those that are found to be corrupt and putt ing them through the just ice system. I accept your proposal that there are other intervent ion measures that could be put in p lace but my submission to you is that , i f I may be al lowed to make submissions to a witness, my proposal to you is that there are preventat ive measures that are in p lace. I don’t th ink that your research has gone as far as ident ifying those and seeing whether in those preventat ive measures they could be strengthened or they could be broadened or they could be narrowed. I t is impossib le that there are no preventat ive measures that are in p lace to deter corrupt ion. DR GROBLER: To the best of my knowledge the preventat ive measures out there are in the form of arrest . MR MASUKU: Are in the form of what? DR GROBLER: Arrest that is the main preventat ive measure being exercised by the SAPS. MR MASUKU: Can I just ask you one last quest ion, maybe not real ly last let me just see these blue papers that keep coming. DR GROBLER : You’ve got a lot of st ickered notes there. MR MASUKU: Can I , you make a very start l ing statement that you do not bel ieve that everyone with in the pol ice understands what corrupt ion is, i t ’s a very start l ing statement to make but can I ask you as an expert do y ou have any empir ical evidence and research that indicates that pol ice do not understand corruption in Khayel i tsha? DR GROBLER : Well not in Khayel i tsha specif ical ly no but I ’ve had commanders of other pol ice stat ions come to me saying they know that they have got d ir ty cops under their command but they don’t know what to look for. Now put in another way they don’t understand what corrupt ion is or how to ident ify i t . MR MASUKU: W ith in Khayel i tsha the three stat ion commanders with in Khayel i tsha have any of them come to you ( indist inct) or publ ic ly to say that they know that there are bad apples with in their , corrupt ion with in the pol ice but they are powerless to do anything about i t? DR GROBLER : W ith a l l due respect I th ink that ’s a spurious quest ion because f i rst of a l l I don’t th ink any of the commanders at Khayel i tsha pol ice stat ion know I exist so I wouldn’ t imagine…(intervent ion) pract ical i ty. MR MASUKU : I t ’s not a spurious quest ion you ment ioned and named commanders you did not te l l us who the commanders are i t ’s not a spurious quest ion you’re an expert you give us informat ion that is very important, you did not ment ion who those commanders are. Now I ’m asking you a quest ion within Khayel i tsha, and you are aware of the terms of reference, d id any of the three commanders of the three stat ions come to you and say they are not able to ident ify corrupt ion when i t happens? DR GROBLER: No. MR MASUKU: So you have no empir ical evidence f rom Khayel i tsha that the pol ice do not understand what corrupt ion is. DR GROBLER: Not f rom Khayel i tsha specif ic no.

MR MASUKU: Yes. That wi l l be al l . NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MASUKU COMMISSIONER: Mr Masuku thank you very much, Mr Bishop have you got – oh Advocate Pikol i , le t Advocate Pikol i go f i rst , okay Mr Bishop go ahead. RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BISHOP MR BISHOP: Thank you Commissioner. Dr Grobler your statements about the fact that SAPS in your v iew doesn’t take corrupt ion ser iously that ’s not based only on reports in the media that ’s a lso based on your interviews with senior members of SAPS is that correct? DR GROBLER: Yes. MR BISHOP: You ment ioned that obviously arrest ing corrupt pol icemen is an important step, i t ’s react ive but i t is an important step is that correct? DR GROBLER: Yes. MR BISHOP: Would i t a lso be important to convict those pol icemen? DR GROBLER: Absolute ly yes I th ink i t would send out an important message. MR BISHOP: To your knowledge is there any dis junct ion between the levels of arrest and the levels of convict ion for corrupt ion? DR GROBLER : I th ink i t ’s d if f icul t to answer that again scient if ical ly because I do not have convict ion f igures I only have arrest f igures and I know that there are many cases ongoing with in the courts but I cannot give you a f igure on convict ions. MR BISHOP : Dr Grobler I ’d l ike to read to you some statements that come f rom a report that was commissioned by the Commission conducted by the CJCP i t appears in Bundle 7 point 2 I th ink. I t ’s the Synthesis Report 14 February 2013. This is a report where the invest igators held var ious foc us groups with youth in Khayel i tsha so it ’s not a complete empir ical study but i t is a focus group study and I just want to read some of the statements that came f rom those focus groups and ask you whether, given what you know about corrupt ion general ly and the documents that you’ve read, would any of these statements surpr ise you. The f i rst is that :

“Common across al l groups were reports of corrupt ion, br ibery and misconduct a l l of which substant ia l ly undermine the publ ic ’s fa i th and trust in the SAPS”.

Is that consistent with the evidence you’ve seen? DR GROBLER: Yes, there were a few of those kind of sent iments expressed yes. MR BISHOP: Also the focus group said that :

“This corrupt ion, br ibery and misconduct could take var ious forms but a suf f ic ient number of f i rst hand experiences ( indist inct) and corrupt ion were ra ised to suggest that th is was a major impediment to both pol ice inef f ic iency and trust in the pol ice in Khayel i tsha. Misconduct could involve the taking of br ibes or s imply taking sides in d isputes”.

Is that consistent with the evidence that you’ve seen? DR GROBLER: Yes and I th ink i f you look at the evidence general ly and you

look at the survey done by Transparency Internat ional which showed that 83% of South Af r icans viewed the pol ice as be ing corrupt , percept ions are very important. MR BISHOP : Yes and the fact that there hasn’t been a huge number of arrests or convict ions for corrupt ion in Khayel i tsha doesn’t mean that i t isn’ t a problem on the same level as anywhere else in the Western Cap e is that correct? DR GROBLER : That ’s correct yes. MR BISHOP: Some quest ions were put to you about the ro le of General Lamoer and in fact you’re not an operat ional expert . DR GROBLER: No. MR BISHOP : You’re not an expert in the way that the pol ice are struc tured or operate is that correct? DR GROBLER: Yes absolute ly. MR BISHOP : So you don’t have expert ise on what powers a provincia l commissioner has re lat ive to the nat ional commissioner. DR GROBLER: Correct . MR BISHOP: But are you aware other than the arrests that we’ve heard of any proact ive steps that General Lamoer has taken to tackle corrupt ion? DR GROBLER : The main one I ’m aware of is the arrest ing of corrupt of f icers under h is command in th is province and he and his team have been very successful with that . MR BISHOP : But you’re not aware that he’s implemented any of the other types of measures that you discussed with regard to t ra in ing or integri ty test ing or anything l ike that that he might do? DR GROBLER : No, no the best of my knowledge those don’t ex is t . MR BISHOP : So ei ther i t ’s because doesn’t have the power to do it or because he doesn’t want to do i t . DR GROBLER : As I…(intervent ion) MR BISHOP : Or doesn’t have the resources to do i t . DR GROBLER : Ja as I t r ied to expla in I don’t th ink i t would be a lack of resources th is is far too important an issue to b lame i t on something l ike, inact ivi ty on something l ike a lack of resources i t ’s far too important . But what I am quest ioning is whether he as a regional commissioner has the abi l i ty or is a l lowed to implement h is own tra in ing programs and his own, ja around corrupt ion. That ’s what I ’m quest ioning I don’t know but I th ink he should be al lowed to do his own th ing. MR BISHOP: Last ly Dr Grobler i t was put to you that you don’t know whether the stat ion commanders in Khayel i tsha don’t understand what corrupt ion is but based on the documents that you’ve seen, the complaints f rom members of the publ ic, the way that complaints and discip l inary measures a re dealt with by those stat ion commanders is i t your view that there’s any reason to th ink they understand i t more than the other stat ion commanders whom you have interviewed? DR GROBLER : Wel l i t ’s one of two th ings that are also qui te universal that has come out universal ly in the evidence is that i t is ei ther a case of turning

a bl ind eye, they know fu l l wel l what i t is because as I ment ioned many of them have come through the ranks they know wel l what i t is , so i t ’s e i ther a case of turning a bl ind eye but somet imes i t can also be a case of not fu l ly understanding what to look for otherwise you would have a lot more behavioural prof i l ing and those sorts of th ings, t rying to counsel or, t ry to ident ify problem of f icers. MR BISHOP: Thank you Dr Grobler I have no further quest ions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BISHOP MR PIKOLI: Dr Grobler I just want to canvass two issues with you, one re lates to your research where amongst other issues you ment ioned the quest ion of the pol ice socia l is ing with cr iminals. Also the Commission has heard evidence f rom some community witnesses referr ing to the same issue here in Khayel i tsha which you also ment ioned in your report which you submitted to the Commission. To what extent do you see th is as a problem? DR GROBLER: The research showed very c lear ly that i t is a problem in some areas where pol ice of f icers grow up in the same environment as gangsters and the dist inct ion has to be made whether you are being seen with your f r iend as a f r iend or whether you are seen with your f r iend as an opportuni ty real ly in other words to be corrupt or to protect h im if i t is a gangster in a certa in sense. So that d ist inct ion has been made and i t ’s fa ir ly common in the Western Cape obviously that pol ice come out of these communit ies where there is a h igh level of cr iminal i ty or gangsters so in many cases they are f r iends with them but in other cases yes they are faci l i tators. MR PIKOLI : The second issue re lates to the r isk factors that you have ment ioned l ike individual issues, t remendous pow er, opportuni ty, the police cul ture and management issues. Now these seem to const i tute the pol ic ing environment, now these factors on their own would not necessari ly breed some of the problems that you have with in pol ic ing but c lear ly have a potent ia l , i f not mit igated, of perhaps breeding some of the problems, including corrupt ion , i f not properly mit igated. In your view do you th ink that there are suf f ic ient measures in p lace to mit igate? DR GROBLER: I th ink that goes with my general f indings that I ha ve expressed here today is that a lot more can be done in terms of the abuse of power, t rying to re in in the abuse of power and the way that the abuse of power manifests in the pol ice very of ten results in assault and pol ice brutal i ty which we have seen a lot of in recent t imes. So if so much feeds into the abuse of power and if th ings are bet ter with in a pol ice of f icer ’s working environment their want ing to lash out would be reduced. One has to remember that th is is a very stressful environment in which individuals work and I th ink i f measures were put in p lace start ing with their knowledge of their own powers, their knowledge of pol ic ing, their knowledge of the law, I th ink i f a l l their t rain ing i f that was better then yes the abuse of power would be reduced. In terms of opportuni ty bet ter supervis ion by management would reduce the opportuni ty to commit cr imes but a lot of i t is at t i tude and that ’s a lo t more dif f icul t to f ix. COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much indeed Dr Grobler for both your

report and your test imony th is morning i t ’s been very helpfu l and you may now stand down. DR GROBLER: Thank you.