colette peters deposition

8/11/2019 Colette Peters Deposition

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www.LNScourtreporting.com

1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE STATE OF OREGON

2 FOR THE COUNTY OF MARION

3

4 ROBERT KILLGORE, )

)

5 Plaintiff, )

)

6 vs. ) Case No. 13C13825

)

7 STATE OF OREGON, DEPARTMENT )

OF CORRECTIONS, )

8 )

Defendant. )

9 ______________________________)

10

11

12

13 DEPOSITION OF COLETTE PETERS

14 Taken on behalf of Plaintiff

15 * * *

16 BE IT REMEMBERED THAT the deposition of

17 COLETTE PETERS was taken before KIM NERHEIM,

18 a Certified Shorthand Reporter for Oregon, on

19 Friday, September 20, 2013, commencing at the

20 hour of 12:57 p.m., in the offices of the Oregon

21 Department of Justice, 1162 Court Street NE,

22 Salem, Oregon.

23

24

25


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1 APPEARANCES:

2

3 BUSSE & HUNT

BY MR. RICHARD C. BUSSE

4 621 S.W. Morrison Street, Suite 521

Portland, Oregon 97205

5 503-248-0504

[email protected]

6 Attorney for Plaintiff.

7

8 OREGON DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

BY MR. STEVEN M. LIPPOLD

9 1162 Court Street NE

Salem, Oregon 97301

10 503-947-4700

[email protected]

11 Attorney for Defendant.

12

13 ALSO PRESENT: Robert Killgore

14 * * *

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1 COLETTE PETERS

2 having first been sworn by the reporter,

3 testified under oath as follows:

4

5 EXAMINATION

6 BY MR. BUSSE:

12:57:38 7 Q Would you please state your full name for the record.

8 A Colette -- do I need to spell it? C-o-l-e-t-t-e.

9 Marie and Snyder are two of my middle names, and my last

10 name is Peters.

12:57:50 11 Q And your residence address, please?

12 A I would prefer to give you my business address.

13 MR. LIPPOLD: We'll do that off --

12:57:58 14 Q BY MR. BUSSE: I have to do it for subpoena purposes.

15 MR. LIPPOLD: Let's do this, Rich. I will,

16 on the record, declare that I will ensure her attendance

17 at anything, and if you need her I will get her.

18 MR. BUSSE: Well, the problem --

19 MR. LIPPOLD: There are security concerns of

20 her giving out her address, and, as a result --

21 MR. BUSSE: I have no problem with keeping

22 it confidential. But if somebody leaves, then you have no

23 longer any control, so...

24 MR. LIPPOLD: Let's go off the record, then?

25 MR. BUSSE: Yeah, that's fine.


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1 (A discussion was held off the record.)

12:59:36 2 Q BY MR. BUSSE: Ms. Peters, my name is Rich Busse.

3 I'm here to ask you questions in connection with the case

4 that Mr. Killgore filed against the State. If at any time

5 you don't understand my question, don't hesitate to ask me

6 to rephrase; I'd be happy to do that for you, okay?

7 A Okay.

12:59:49 8 Q Also, as you did, it's good to continue to get a good

9 strong verbal response, rather than a shake or nod of the

10 head or "uh-huh" or "huh-uh." Will you try and continue

11 to do that for us, please?

12 A Yes.

13:00:00 13 Q Where are you currently employed?

14 A The Oregon Department of Corrections.

13:00:02 15 Q In what capacity?

16 A As the director.

13:00:04 17 Q For how long have you been so employed?

18 A Since February of last year.

13:00:08 19 Q When in February?

20 A I believe my first date was February 6th, so on or

21 around February 6th.

13:00:16 22 Q What was your job before that?

23 A Director of the Oregon Youth Authority.

13:00:20 24 Q For how long?

25 A Since July of 2009.


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13:00:26 1 Q And before that?

2 A Before that, I was a stay-at-home mom for

3 approximately six months.


5 A Assistant Director and Inspector General at the

6 Department of Corrections.


8 A I arrived at the Department of Corrections in April

9 of 2004 as the public affairs administrator and was

10 promoted to Assistant Director and Inspector General in

11 2006.

13:01:14 12 Q What did you do before that?

13 A I worked for the Colorado legislature.


15 A As their nonpartisan criminal justice research staff,

16 focusing on criminal justice issues.


18 A You're testing my memory. From, it would have been

19 December of 2003 back to the fall of 1998.


21 A I worked for the Denver Police Department.


23 A As -- I ran the crisis mediation unit inside the

24 Crimes Against Persons Bureau.

13:01:57 25 Q How long?


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1 A From the fall of 1995 until I began working for the

2 Colorado legislature in '98.


4 A Before that, I worked for Breck Preparatory School in

5 Minneapolis, Minnesota.


7 A An assistant to the principal.

13:02:31 8 Q What year are we back to?

9 A That was the summer of 1995.

13:02:35 10 Q What's your age?

11 A 42.

13:02:37 12 Q And date of birth?

13 A 1/1/71.

13:02:40 14 Q What's your education?

15 A I have a Master's degree in criminal justice and a

16 Bachelor's degree in psychology.

13:02:49 17 Q Where did you get your Master's?

18 A The University of Colorado.

13:02:52 19 Q What year?

20 A Let's see, I graduated in 1998.

13:03:07 21 Q And your Bachelor's, where?

22 A The College of Saint Benedict in Saint Joseph,

23 Minnesota.

13:03:12 24 Q What year?

25 A 1993.


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13:03:19 1 Q Who do you report to?

2 A The governor.

13:03:28 3 Q And does Mr. Morrow report to you?

4 A He does.

13:03:34 5 Q What are your job duties?

6 A To oversee the Oregon Department of Corrections,

7 which is responsible for 4300 employees, approximately

8 14,500 inmates inside our prisons, and either indirect or

9 direct responsibility over approximately 31,000 felons on

10 supervision in the community.

13:03:56 11 Q And is it part of your job to see to it that the

12 department operates within the law?

13 A It is.

13:04:06 14 Q And were you aware, upon your appointment as

15 Director, that the Oregon Constitution provides that all

16 income generated from prison work programs were to be kept

17 separate from General Fund accounts?

18 A I am.

13:04:17 19 Q And were you also aware that those monies were only

20 to be used for implementing, maintaining, and developing

21 prison work programs?

22 A Yes.

13:04:34 23 Q Is it the policy of the department to treat its

24 employees fairly and in good faith?

25 A It is.


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13:04:40 1 Q And to give them notice of any perceived deficiencies

2 so that they have a fair opportunity to correct them?

3 A It is.

13:04:48 4 Q And in the event of employee misconduct, to withhold

5 judgment until an investigation of that is complete?

6 A Can you be more clear around "investigation"?

13:05:00 7 Q Is it your policy that if some employee misconduct is

8 brought to your attention that you don't just jump to a

9 conclusion about it, you first conduct a full and fair

10 investigation?

11 A That is correct.

13:05:12 12 Q And as part of completing the investigation, before

13 you arrive at a judgment, to get both sides to the story?

14 A Yes.

13:05:24 15 Q Do you ever discipline subordinates?

16 A Yes.

13:05:32 17 Q What factors do you take into account in determining

18 whether and how much to discipline?

19 A It depends on each individual case. I definitely

20 focus on the individual that's sitting before me and try

21 to gather as many facts about the situation as possible

22 before garnering any decision.

13:05:47 23 Q Would you consider such factors as the seriousness of

24 the offense?

25 A Yes, no doubt.


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13:05:52 1 Q And whether it's a repeat offense?

2 A Yes.

13:05:55 3 Q And whether the standard of behavior is clearly

4 communicated?

5 A Yes.

13:05:59 6 Q And whether the standard is understood by the person?

7 A Yes.

13:06:03 8 Q And that person's overall performance history?

9 A Yes. It -- yes, in most cases, if I might clarify.

10 Should someone have clear conduct for years and engage in

11 unethical or criminal behavior, I don't believe that the

12 past -- or at least the past experience wouldn't weigh as

13 highly for me.

13:06:24 14 Q Have you disciplined any subordinates other than

15 Mr. Killgore in the last year?

16 A For clarification, directly as the director, or

17 within the organization have employees been disciplined?

13:06:43 18 Q Directly as the director.

19 A No.

13:06:47 20 Q Have you terminated any directly as the director?

21 A No.

13:06:51 22 Q In any previous capacity with the State, have you

23 disciplined or terminated employees?

24 A Yes.

13:06:57 25 Q And are the forms of discipline that you can advert


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1 to, do they include such things as verbal warnings?

2 A Yes.

13:07:07 3 Q And written warnings?

4 A Yes.

13:07:09 5 Q And if someone has a performance issue, can you put

6 them on a plan of assistance to help improve their

7 performance?

8 A That is an option.

13:07:18 9 Q And if you give somebody a work plan to try and

10 improve their performance, is the plan itself to be

11 realistic and attainable?

12 A Yes.

13:07:29 13 Q Now, are you the person who decided to fire

14 Mr. Killgore?

15 A I am the person that decided to end the employment

16 relationship with Mr. Killgore.

13:07:38 17 Q And was that your decision to make?

18 A Yes.

13:07:42 19 Q Did anyone provide any input into that decision?

20 A Yes.

13:07:47 21 Q And who was that?

22 A I don't know that I would be able to recall everyone

23 complete -- you know, an entire -- a complete list, but I

24 never make decisions like that in a vacuum, I know that I

25 consulted with members of the policy group, I consulted


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1 with DOJ lawyers and, again, as I said earlier in

2 your earlier questioning, really tried to gather as much

3 information as possible before making that decision.

13:08:16 4 Q And when was that decision made?

5 A I believe it was March of -- I believe it was March.

13:08:28 6 Q And was that early, mid, or late March?

7 A I believe it was mid-March.

13:08:39 8 Q How many days or weeks prior to the termination being

9 effected was it that that decision was reached?

10 A I don't recall.

13:08:45 11 Q And prior to reaching the decision, when were your

12 consultations with members of your policy group?

13 A During my decision making, but the exact dates I do

14 not remember.

13:08:58 15 Q Would that have also been in that early March period?

16 A Again, I don't remember the exact date.

13:09:07 17 Q Over -- Of course. Over what period of time did

18 those consultations extend?

19 A You know, again, if you're looking for a range, I

20 would say weeks prior to the decision.

13:09:27 21 Q Okay. Who do you recall speaking with on the policy

22 group about that?

23 A I recall speaking to Chane Griggs, Michael Gower,

24 Leonard Williamson. I think that was the -- the only

25 policy group members that I recall speaking to about this


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1 decision.

13:10:03 2 Q And who were the policy group members at that time

3 besides those three?

4 A Again, I would have to go back and look in March. We

5 have had some changes, and I'm not remembering when people

6 came and went.

13:10:19 7 Q Is there a document that would tell us who those

8 persons were?

9 A Sure.

13:10:23 10 Q And what would that document be called?

11 A Well, it would be our organizational chart at that

12 time.

13 MR. BUSSE: Would you make a note to me to

14 request to have produced the organizational chart of the

15 DOC policy group as of March 2013.

13:10:43 16 Q BY MR. BUSSE: And so what did you and Chane Griggs

17 discuss on that subject?

18 A I don't remember the specifics of the conversation.

19 I will tell you that these decisions I do not take

20 lightly; I labor over them, I lose sleep over them. And

21 so the conversations that I had would have been around

22 past performance, direction that we're trying to take the

23 agency, and for me it's -- I always err on the side of

24 helping make the person succeed and trying to figure out

25 if we had crossed a line where that success just couldn't


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1 occur.

13:11:20 2 Q Did you approach Chane Griggs, or did he approach

3 you?

4 A Chane Griggs is a woman. And I approached her.

13:11:25 5 Q Oh, thank you.

6 And do you recall if that was the first person

7 you spoke with or the last, or which in order?

8 A I do not recall.

13:11:34 9 Q And what is her job title?

10 A She was the assistant director responsible for the

11 offender management and rehabilitation division.

13:11:42 12 Q And for what purpose were you discussing the subject

13 with her?

14 A As a member of my executive team.

13:11:48 15 Q Was there something about what she did in her role as

16 assistant director that gave her special knowledge about

17 the subject?

18 A Can you be more clear? Special knowledge about

19 Oregon Corrections Enterprise or around leadership for the

20 agency?

13:12:07 21 Q Why her as opposed to some other member of the policy

22 group that you did not speak with?

23 A I think for me, the re -- the reasons I would be

24 drawn to those three in engaging in a conversation like

25 this is relying on their sense of leadership, their


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1 seniority in the agency, and simply from that perspective.

13:12:40 2 Q How long was your conversation with Chane Griggs?

3 A I don't know -- I wouldn't say it was a single

4 conversation, I think it was an ongoing conversation over

5 time as I deliberated.

13:12:55 6 Q The ongoing conversation involved how many contacts?


13:13:00 8 Q What's your best estimate?

9 A Six conversations, perhaps.

13:13:13 10 Q All right. Do you recall anything that you said to

11 her or she said to you in the first of the six?

12 A No, nothing particular.

13:13:23 13 Q The second?

14 A No. I won't recall -- I'm not recalling specifics of

15 any of those conversations.

13:13:33 16 Q Do you recall the substance of any piece of

17 information that she provided or piece of advice?

18 A I don't remember specifics. One of the things that

19 she does well is probe and just ask questions and to make

20 sure that I'm not missing anything and I've taken

21 everything into account, but I don't remember specifics.

13:14:01 22 Q Do you remember the substance of any information you

23 gave to her during any of those six conversations about

24 that subject?

25 A No, I don't -- you know, I don't recall specifically.


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1 Generally, what I would do in those conversations is

2 really share the information I know around performance and

3 where we're -- where I'm wanting to go from a vision

4 perspective.

13:14:25 5 Q Did you discuss options to termination with her

6 during any of those six conversations?

7 A And can you be more clear? You mean options other

8 than termination?

13:14:37 9 Q Right. Did you discuss an array of options in

10 dealing with the issue?

11 A I don't know that I talked about a range of options

12 with either of those three individuals. I would -- I'm

13 confident that I talked about all of the conversations I

14 had had with Rob over the year trying to get him to

15 perform at the level that I needed him to perform at.

13:15:17 16 Q Was there a conversation with Mr. Killgore during

17 2012 in which you told him he was not performing up to

18 standard?

19 A Yes, there were multiple conversations.

13:15:30 20 Q And when was the first?

21 A Shortly after my arrival at DOC.

13:15:38 22 Q What did you say to him to convey that he was not

23 performing --

24 A We --

13:15:42 25 Q -- up to standards -- May I finish?


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1 A Pardon me.

13:15:43 2 Q Thank you. She can only take down one of us at a

3 time, so I'll try not to step on your response, if you try

4 to withhold your response before I complete my question.

5 A Of course.

13:15:55 6 Q What is the first conversation that you can recall

7 having with Mr. Killgore at which you stated to him that

8 you did not believe his performance was up to standard?

9 MR. LIPPOLD: Object to the form of the

10 question, vague. Go ahead.

11 A I remember having conversations with Mr. Killgore

12 around the CAFR issue early on in my tenure at the

13 Department of Corrections and struggling to find clarity

14 on what his recommendation was in moving forward.

13:16:23 15 Q BY MR. BUSSE: In the conversation on the CAFR

16 issue -- And that was in about July? August?

17 A February.

13:16:31 18 Q February, okay.

19 Tell me the substance of your conversation

20 with Mr. Killgore on the CAFR issue in February and how

21 you communicated to him that you believed his performance

22 to be substandard.

23 A Again, I don't remember specifics, but I remember

24 generally having conversations and e-mails with

25 Mr. Killgore on how to manage the CAFR conversation with


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1 him.

13:16:57 2 Q Did you tell him, "Rob, I believe your performance is

3 substandard"?

4 A No, I never used those words.

13:17:07 5 Q Okay. How did you -- what words did you use to

6 communicate in 2012 at any time that you believed his

7 performance to be substandard?

8 A Again, I don't recall specific words, I just remember

9 having multiple conversations with Rob around vision and

10 where we wanted to go and the direction that we wanted to

11 take Oregon Corrections Enterprise in and then having to

12 have conversations later because I noted he headed in a

13 different direction.

13:17:32 14 Q Well, you said that "I had conversations with him in

15 which I conveyed that he was not performing up to

16 standard," and I am entitled to find out when you said

17 that to him. Did you ever say that to him?

18 A I never used those words.

13:17:48 19 Q Did you use words like that?

20 A Yes.

13:17:50 21 Q What words like that did you use?

22 A Again, I don't recall the specific words.

13:17:55 23 Q Is it your practice, where you have a performer who

24 is substandard and won't comply with your direction, to

25 note that somewhere?


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1 A Um, at the executive level, it typically isn't my

2 practice; however, in this case, many of the conversations

3 that we had with Mr. Killgore actually were with the

4 deputy director and myself, and the deputy was good at

5 capturing the conversations that happened and -- and send

6 them, then, to Rob in e-mail following many of our

7 meetings.

13:18:37 8 Q Did you discipline him before his termination?

9 A No.

13:18:40 10 Q Verbally or in writing?

11 A So I had multiple conversations with Mr. Killgore

12 around him not taking the organization in the direction

13 that I wanted. Was it formal discipline? No.

13:18:57 14 Q Did you confer with -- Who is your HR liaison?

15 A Um, at the time, the HR liaison was -- Sadly, I'm

16 drawing a blank. At the time, the HR liaison was --

13:19:27 17 Q He can't help you.

18 A I know.

13:19:29 19 Q You're looking at Mr. Lippold here.

20 Maybe that --

21 A Thank you.

13:19:36 22 Q Maybe it will come to you.

23 A Assistant Director Gary Sims.

13:19:41 24 Q Did you ever talk with Mr. Sims about a performance

25 problem that you were having with Mr. Killgore?


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1 A I did not.

13:19:49 2 Q Why not?

3 A The -- the HR function at OCE is separate than with

4 DOC, so I relied on the individuals that I presented and

5 DOJ to help me work through the HR issues.

13:20:08 6 Q Have you ever consulted with Mr. Sims on HR issues?

7 A In his capacity as Assistant Director of HR, I'm sure

8 I did on some employee issues. It would be more likely,

9 however, that Mr. Sims would be briefing me on employee

10 issues in that capacity.

13:20:31 11 Q Mr. Gower, what is his job title?

12 A He's the assistant director responsible for

13 operations.

13:20:37 14 Q Now, did you have one conversation or more than one

15 conversation to discuss Mr. Killgore's performance issues

16 before his termination?

17 MR. LIPPOLD: Objection, vague. Go ahead.

18 A For clarification, with Mr. Gower?

13:20:53 19 Q BY MR. BUSSE: Yes.

20 A I did have multiple conversations with Mr. Gower; how

21 many, I do not know.

13:21:00 22 Q All right. Do you recall approximately how many?

23 A I'll do the same approximation for him, it was

24 probably around six.

13:21:07 25 Q And do you recall anything that you said to Mr. Gower


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1 in any of those conversations about the performance issues

2 you were observing?

3 A Again, no, no specifics.

13:21:20 4 Q Do you recall anything that Mr. Gower said in

5 substance at any of those six conversations?

6 A No, I don't recall any specifics.

13:21:28 7 Q How about Mr. Williamson? How many times did you

8 speak with him about Mr. Killgore's performance issues?

9 A Mr. Williamson, I consulted probably more than six.

10 I probably consulted with him a dozen times --

13:21:44 11 Q All right.

12 A -- in his role as Inspector General.

13:21:50 13 Q And tell me about the inspector general in the DOC.

14 What role does the inspector general have, if any, with

15 respect to personnel issues?

16 A He is responsible for investigating all criminal or

17 unethical behavior of any of the employees in the

18 department. He is also our liaison to the Department of

19 Justice, and that would have been why I consulted with him

20 more in this particular case.

13:22:23 21 Q Well, liaison to the Department of Justice with

22 regard to personnel issues?

23 A Yes.

13:22:28 24 Q Okay.

25 A And inmate -- pardon me. And inmate litigation.


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13:22:35 1 Q Did you consult with Mr. Williamson in writing or

2 verbally?

3 A Verbally.

13:22:49 4 Q And can you remember anything that you said to

5 Mr. Williamson in any of the 12 meetings that you estimate

6 you had with him on that subject?

7 A No, nothing specific, but would have ranged from not

8 only the conversations like I had with Ms. Griggs talking

9 about performance and past history, but he also helped me,

10 as liaison with DOJ, to figure out what our options were.

13:23:17 11 Q Do you recall anything that he said to you in terms

12 of those options?


14 question, may call for attorney/client privilege. Can I

15 take a break to consult with my client to know what advice

16 she's talking about so it's not a waiver of

17 attorney/client privilege?

18 MR. BUSSE: I think you can ask her on the

19 record what the context was of the consultation, and I

20 would have no objection to you doing that.

21 MR. LIPPOLD: Okay. At this time?

22 Okay, Ms. Peters, you had been asked a

23 question about consultation you had had with Leonard

24 Williamson. You prefaced that by indicating that he was a

25 liaison with the DOJ. Mr. Busse had asked you a question


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1 about what options he provided to you after he had

2 consulted with DOJ.

3 MR. BUSSE: I'm not sure that that was --

4 MR. LIPPOLD: That was what I heard.

5 MR. BUSSE: Okay.

6 MR. LIPPOLD: Do you wish me to continue, or

7 do you have a different question?

8 MR. BUSSE: You can go ahead and ask your

9 question, and then I may have further questions.

10 MR. LIPPOLD: And did Mr. Williamson

11 indicate to you whether any of these options were provided

12 to him through counsel with DOJ?

13 THE WITNESS: Yes, they were provided

14 through counsel with DOJ.

15 MR. LIPPOLD: So I'm going to object to the

16 asking of the questions further. I do not want this to be

17 a waiver of any attorney/client privilege.

13:25:05 18 Q BY MR. BUSSE: Ms. Peters, as the inspector general,

19 were you looking to Mr. Williamson for legal advice, or

20 no?

21 A No. I was looking to DOJ for legal advice.

13:25:25 22 Q Oh, okay.

23 MR. BUSSE: So I believe, under those

24 circumstances, then, what Mr. Williamson said to this

25 witness is not privileged and, therefore -- and to the


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1 extent that there were those conversations between those

2 two individuals, neither of whom can claim the privilege,

3 then I must insist on a response about the options that

4 he, Mr. Williamson, told you were available to you.

5 MR. LIPPOLD: And I further object, I

6 disagree with your analysis. I believe that if the advice

7 was given to DOJ -- by DOJ, the attorney, to

8 Mr. Williamson at the request of the director, that his

9 then briefing her on the DOJ information would still be

10 privileged, and I'm going to instruct the witness not to

11 answer that question. We'll leave the deposition open for

12 interpretation by the Court.

13:26:29 13 Q BY MR. BUSSE: With regard to Mr. Williamson, Counsel

14 indicated that he was telling you what the Department of

15 Justice was telling him. Did you have conversations in

16 which Mr. Williamson was providing you with an array of

17 options before that consultation?

18 A To be clear, you're asking before the DOJ

19 consultation?

13:26:49 20 Q Right. Right.

21 A No, I do not recall he offered any suggestions or

22 alternatives prior to that consultation regarding options.

13:27:04 23 Q So in the 12 conversations you had, did he just go to

24 the DOJ after the first conversation, or when in that

25 interlude of conversations did that consultation occur?


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1 A I don't recall.

13:27:20 2 Q Before that consultation occurred, were there some

3 conversations, at least, that you had had with

4 Mr. Williamson?

5 A Yes.

13:27:27 6 Q And in any of those conversations, can you tell me

7 what he told you about your -- the things that you could

8 do to remedy the issue?

9 A I don't recall any specifics.

13:27:40 10 Q Do you recall anything that you told him in any of

11 those conversations before he went to the Department of

12 Justice?

13 A Again, not any specifics, but it is likely the

14 conversations were very similar to the ones I had with

15 Ms. Griggs and Mr. Gower where I talked about the issues

16 as I saw them over the year and deliberated with them.

13:28:08 17 Q There's a newspaper report, I'm going to show you an

18 exhibit --

19 MR. BUSSE: Counsel, you already have the

20 copy of it.

21 MR. LIPPOLD: Yeah, it was the last one, I

22 think. Exhibit 131? Yes.

13:28:31 23 Q BY MR. BUSSE: And there's a newspaper report by the

24 Statesman Journal. And do you have that document in front

25 of you?


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1 A I do.

13:28:59 2 Q If you'll turn to Page 3.

3 A (Complied.)

13:29:08 4 Q The newspaper article reports that in -- on

5 Paragraph 4, that "Peters also insisted on October 26th

6 that she had no plans to fire Killgore." Is that true?

7 A That is true.

13:29:23 8 Q And then two paragraphs down, it's reported that you

9 said, "Quite the opposite, in fact; that's not the path we

10 want to go down, we want to make him a success." Was that

11 true?

12 A That is correct.

13:29:37 13 Q And then it goes further and says, "...but we want to

14 continue the conversation where we left it, which is 'you

15 understand you're not meeting our expectations." Do you

16 see that?

17 A I do.

13:29:51 18 Q Did you say that to him at any time during 2012?

19 A I don't recall that I used those words specifically,

20 but I know that I had conversations around him not meeting

21 my expectations.

13:30:03 22 Q When you say "around not meeting our...," did you

23 ever indicate to him that he was not performing up to the

24 level of performance that you expected in an OCE director?

25 A Yes.


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13:30:16 1 Q When did you say anything like that to him?

2 A We had multiple conversations around where I wanted

3 the Oregon Corrections Enterprise to go; that I want it to

4 remain a semi-independent agency; that I wanted to come up

5 with a business plan that would not just hire over a

6 thousand inmates but potentially 10,000 and that the --

7 the planning that he was taking in was actually not in

8 line with that direction.

13:30:52 9 Q Apart from giving feedback about his planning being

10 in the direction, did you ever give him an evaluation

11 during that year concerning his performance?


13 question. Go ahead.

14 A I did not give Mr. Killgore a formal performance

15 evaluation during that year.

13:31:13 16 Q BY MR. BUSSE: Well, informally, did you say, "Based

17 upon what you're doing, you're just not cuttin' it," or

18 anything like that?



21 A No, I never said "you're not cutting it." What I did

22 was talk about my frustration around him not seeming to

23 align with the vision of where I wanted Oregon Corrections

24 Enterprise to go.

13:31:37 25 Q BY MR. BUSSE: When did you say that you were


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1 frustrated about that?

2 A You know, I think I probably began to get frustrated

3 in the summer of 2012/early fall where it seemed that I

4 would get him to a place of understanding and then the

5 very next meeting we would have he would be back in a

6 different place.

13:32:00 7 Q And that was pertaining to what issue in particular?

8 A Um, um, I would say multiple issues. Some of his

9 concerns around past spending; we would, as an example,

10 talk about his concerns around OCE paying for the funeral

11 of Officer Buddy Herron and -- or for parts of the funeral

12 of Officer Buddy Herron and we would have what I thought

13 would be a healthy conversation around my thinking and how

14 it was something that was appropriate and was something

15 that was valued, and he would then agree to that and say,

16 "You're right, I understand your logic, that makes

17 complete sense," and then I would meet with him again and

18 he would go back to, "I have concerns about that

19 particular event."

13:32:53 20 Q And that --

21 A But --

13:32:56 22 Q Excuse me, go ahead.

23 A And that's just one example of feeling like I was

24 getting him heading in a direction and focusing on the

25 future and then, at the very next meeting, he would turn


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1 to the past again, either with that situation or another

2 situation I hadn't heard of that was concerning to him, as

3 well.

13:33:14 4 Q And that was frustrating to you.

5 A You know, for me -- and I think I wrote it in an

6 e-mail to him in August. For me, if there's something

7 that's not right in the organization, if there's something

8 we're not doing correctly, I want to know about it and

9 then I want to solve it and move on. And so that was the

10 conversation I had with Rob, which was, "Please, all of

11 your concerns that you have over the last ten years,

12 please put them together, we will go through them, we will

13 either refer them to the inspector general, the State

14 Police, HR, whomever needs to review them and we'll

15 resolve them and hold people accountable if need be, and

16 then I really need you to focus on the future, I really

17 want to figure out how we can take Oregon Corrections

18 Enterprise to the next level."

13:34:01 19 Q My question was, what you described using the Buddy

20 Herron funeral position, that that was frustrating to you,

21 his vacillation on that; is that correct?

22 A His vacillation generally. That was just one example

23 of where he vacillated.

13:34:20 24 Q And that caused frustration to you; correct?

25 A Correct.


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13:34:23 1 Q Thank you.

2 And you said, you just got through saying

3 that, "Hey, I told him to, you know, write a list of what

4 his concerns were, we will refer them to the State Police,

5 whomever." Where did you ever tell him where you'd --

6 what you would do with the list?

7 A Um, I don't recall if it was specifically in the

8 e-mail that I wrote, but I know we at least talked about

9 that.

13:34:46 10 Q Tell me what you said.

11 A I don't remember specifically. But typically, when

12 people bring cases forward, we have different avenues,

13 depending on what the allegations are. So it might be an

14 appropriate Inspector General review, Oregon State Police

15 review, HR review; it would depend on the particular

16 issue. But I know I communicated to him that we would

17 look at everything he was concerned about and have it

18 appropriately investigated.

13:35:59 19 Q Why was Mr. Killgore terminated?

20 A For a variety of reasons. Primarily, because he was

21 not in line with the vision of where I wanted to take the

22 agency, but, also, we had begun hearing concerns around a

23 hostile work environment, and that was part of my decision

24 making, as well.

13:36:25 25 Q Anything else?


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1 A You know, for me, it really was a determination

2 around if I thought he was the individual to take the

3 organization to the place that was in line with my vision.

13:36:55 4 Q The first item you mentioned.

5 A M-hm.

13:36:57 6 Q That's a "yes"?

7 A Yes.

13:37:03 8 Q And he was not in line with that vision in what

9 respect?

10 A So I had continually asked him to come up with a

11 business case plan that would take the organization from

12 employing approximately 1100 inmates to -- you know, I

13 would often say "10,000" if it was possible, clearly

14 recognizing that we still need inmates to do other work

15 inside our prisons, but wanting really to take an

16 organization that had been financially afloat now for over

17 a decade and figuring out how to expand its operations.

18 He seemed very set on figuring out how to move

19 the Oregon Corrections Enterprise outside of the purview

20 of the Department of Corrections, and that was a model

21 that had occurred years ago; the agency almost went

22 bankrupt when it happened. And with my background and

23 understanding of how intimately those two organizations

24 need to work together, I knew that that was a flawed

25 model, and I said to him time and time again that I was


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1 not interested in pursuing even that conversation.


3 A Not that I can recall.

4 MR. LIPPOLD: Just a moment.

5 (Counsel conferred with the witness.)

6 THE WITNESS: Yes. Okay.

7 A So, for the record, many of my reasons were laid out

8 in the termination letter.

13:38:57 9 Q BY MR. BUSSE: Can you think of anything else?

10 A Not at this time.

13:39:03 11 Q Were there any reasons that were not laid out in the

12 termination letter?

13 A Again, I haven't reviewed the termination letter in

14 quite some time, but I do know that I would have laid all

15 of the facts before me before making the -- making the

16 decision. And all of that would have been way more fresh

17 back in March.

13:39:28 18 Q When you say lay the facts before you, did you have

19 any documents that you reviewed?

20 A I know I would have reviewed prior e-mail

21 communications between Mr. Killgore and myself.

13:39:40 22 Q Do you recall which ones?

23 A It would be my practice to review all of them, if not

24 nearly all of them.



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1 A Not that I can recall.

13:40:11 2 Q And what was his position on how many inmates OCE

3 should employ?


5 question, calls for speculation. Go ahead.

6 A I don't know that Mr. Killgore ever gave me an

7 estimate.

13:40:36 8 Q BY MR. BUSSE: Was there discussion with you about

9 expansion?

10 A Yes, we had multiple conversations around expansion.

13:40:43 11 Q Did you ever convey to him that those ideas of his on

12 the subject of expansion of the number of inmates in the

13 program were unsatisfactory?

14 A It was my hope -- Excuse me, to answer your

15 question -- Actually, can you ask the question again,

16 please, Mr. Busse?

17 MR. BUSSE: Would you read it back.

18 (The question was read by the reporter.)

19 A So to answer your question, he didn't ever provide me

20 with a plan to expand the number of inmates in that

21 program.

13:41:29 22 Q BY MR. BUSSE: And so are the e-mails about that

23 "Where's the plan, where's the plan?"

24 A I don't recall a specific e-mail, but I know there

25 were conversations. And it was my hope that the PSU


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1 review was going to provide that business case plan. It

2 did not.

13:41:52 3 Q Did you have conversations with him in which you

4 indicated your desire that the scope of work for the PSU

5 project should include that?

6 A Yes.

13:42:02 7 Q And you saw the scope of work on the contract for the

8 PSU contract. Did you talk with him about the scope of

9 work?


11 question, introduces facts not in evidence. Go ahead.

12 A I did, and it was because of those conversations that

13 the scope of work was changed.

13:42:24 14 Q BY MR. BUSSE: To suit your desire --

15 A Correct.

13:42:31 16 Q -- correct? Thank you.

17 A At least one version of the revised was one that I

18 could agree with.

13:42:47 19 Q Great.

20 And when was it that he first led you to

21 believe he was not in line with the vision that you wanted

22 to take the department?

23 A I think from the -- the beginning of the

24 conversation. I believe the Phase I PSU report led me to

25 believe that he had other ideas in mind, that's what --


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1 that's what inspired me to have those conversations with

2 him. We were able to, at one point, convince PSU to not

3 engage in a conversation that separated the two entities

4 in order to create that new business plan and that new

5 future.

6 Ultimately, that is not -- that is not how

7 they concluded their work, and Rob made it very clear that

8 separating those two entities was something that he

9 desired.

13:43:48 10 Q But that was something that was manifest to you, him

11 not being in line with your vision, soon after you became

12 Director?

13 A Yes. Yes. They had already begun and engaged in the

14 PSU work prior to me coming on board at DOC.

13:44:07 15 Q And you recall having conversations about the

16 disconnect on the vision through the spring and summer --

17 A Yes, sir, early on.

13:44:17 18 Q -- of 2012?

19 A Correct.

13:44:22 20 Q Were there any such conversations in the fall of 2012

21 on that same subject?

22 A Yes, I'm sure there had to have been in the fall, as

23 well. I don't -- I don't recall when the report was

24 finalized, but we would have been engaged in those

25 conversations until that report was finalized.


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13:44:52 1 Q And do you recall any conversations, then, on that

2 same subject in October?

3 A Not specifically in October, but I know the

4 conversations were ongoing during the entire work of the

5 PSU report.

13:45:03 6 Q How about November, any specific conversations in

7 November?

8 A Again, I don't recall specifics, but I know that the

9 conversations were ongoing until that report was

10 completed.

13:45:12 11 Q How about December?

12 A Again, I don't recall any specifics, but I know the

13 conversations continued during the entirety of the PSU

14 work.

13:45:23 15 Q When was it completed?


13:45:27 17 Q Okay. How about January, do you recall any

18 conversations in January on that subject?

19 A So I don't recall any specific conversations -- or,

20 excuse me, any specific time frame for those

21 conversations, but I do know that the conversations

22 continued during the entire work of PSU.

13:45:44 23 Q How about February?

24 A That would include February.

13:45:59 25 Q And were there any events or incidents or


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1 conversations in March that you can recall that were on

2 that same subject?

3 A Again, my statement would refer to March, as well.

13:46:09 4 Q And I'm talking about March of 2013.

5 A M-hm.

13:46:12 6 Q You understood that.

7 A Yes.

13:46:19 8 Q Okay. Prior to his termination, had Mr. Killgore

9 objected to any of the requests the Department of

10 Corrections was making concerning the expenditure of OCE

11 funds?

12 A Yes.

13:46:37 13 Q And were you aware, at the time that you took over,

14 that he had expressed those concerns?

15 A Yes.

13:46:50 16 Q When did you first learn of his concerns?

17 A I don't recall exactly when I first learned of his

18 concerns, but I do know that when I became Director and he

19 brought those concerns forward we, very early on in my

20 tenure, created a memorandum of understanding to provide

21 clarity around the issue.

13:47:21 22 Q And that issue having to do with the Constitutional

23 mandate that the funds from prison work programs be used

24 only for implementing, maintaining, and developing prison

25 work programs?


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1 A Yes.

13:47:36 2 Q And you knew that even before you were the director;

3 correct?

4 A For clarification, knew of his concerns?

13:47:44 5 Q No, no. Of the Constitutional limitation.

6 A I did.

13:47:48 7 Q Okay. For what period of time had you known about it

8 prior to that?

9 A I would have learned that in coming to the Department

10 of Corrections in the spring of 2004 as the public affairs

11 administrator.

13:48:08 12 Q And what concerns of his did you come to learn of

13 prior to assuming the directorship?

14 A I had heard from Director Williams that Mr. Killgore

15 had concerns around some of the expenditures prior to his

16 departure.

13:48:31 17 Q And what did Mr. Williams tell you were

18 Mr. Killgore's concerns?

19 A I don't remember all of the specifics. I do remember

20 two cases in particular, and those were paying for some of

21 the items at Officer Buddy Herron's funeral and a donation

22 made to either a specific Boy Scout troop or Boy Scouts

23 generally.

13:48:52 24 Q And what did Mr. Williams tell you he made of those

25 concerns?


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1 A Um, I don't remember the specifics, but generally he

2 had talked through the -- his logic around those

3 expenditures with Mr. Killgore and thought that

4 Mr. Killgore understood and agreed with his thinking at

5 the time.

13:49:18 6 Q And did Mr. Williams tell you that he was passing

7 this information on to you because apparently that did not

8 mollify Mr. Killgore?

9 A I'm sorry, it didn't what Mr. Killgore?

13:49:32 10 Q Assuage Mr. Killgore's concerns, or take care of them

11 or alleviate them.

12 A If I'm recalling directly -- correctly, pardon me, it

13 was -- Mr. Williams actually briefed me while I was the

14 director at the Oregon Youth Authority prior to being

15 appointed as Director of the Department of Corrections.

13:49:54 16 Q All right. And was he briefing you in anticipation

17 that you would become Director and succeed him?

18 A No. Just as Director to Director.

13:50:03 19 Q Do you recall why it was that he was involving you or

20 telling you of these concerns of Mr. Killgore?

21 A We would talk regularly about the comings and goings

22 of each others' agencies and often relied on each other as

23 we engaged in running similar operations.

13:50:22 24 Q Did you have more than one conversation with

25 Mr. Williams on this subject before you assumed the


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1 directorship of the Department of Corrections?

2 A Not that I recall.

13:50:31 3 Q Did you offer any advice or feedback to Mr. Williams,

4 having heard his -- having related this conversation with

5 Mr. Killgore to you about Mr. Killgore's concerns?

6 A I don't remember specifically. It -- I do remember

7 just generally having him explain the situation. I'm sure

8 I asked questions and tried to understand it. But I do

9 remember agreeing with Mr. Williams' logic.

13:50:58 10 Q About whether or not the funds were appropriately

11 spent?

12 A Yes.

13:51:04 13 Q What was his logic on the Buddy Herron funeral?

14 A So his thinking was that, over the years, Oregon

15 Corrections Enterprise would engage in purchases in

16 goodwill or good faith to engage the Department of

17 Corrections in that partnership and that purchasing those

18 things for an officer's family who had just been murdered

19 certainly fell in line with previously-used logic.

13:51:43 20 Q How does goodwill relate to the Constitutional

21 limitation that the funds only be spent for implementing,

22 maintaining, or developing prison work programs?

23 A So in the interest of full disclosure, I am not a

24 lawyer, but I do know that we relied on a DOJ opinion to

25 talk about what would be appropriate in terms of marketing


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1 and this idea of goodwill between the two agencies.

13:52:08 2 Q Whose opinion was that?

3 A It was from the Department of Justice.

13:52:12 4 Q Do you know who wrote it?


13:52:14 6 Q When did you read it?

7 A I know that I read it while Director of the

8 Department of Corrections.

13:52:30 9 Q Is this one of the opinions that Mr. Killgore brought

10 to your attention?

11 A It is. And the reason I'm hesitating is because I'm

12 vaguely remembering having to read it in my previous role

13 at the Department of Corrections, as well, but I'm not

14 remembering the specific reason why.

13:52:53 15 Q And what was Mr. Williams' rationale on the Boy Scout

16 contribution that you agreed with?

17 A His thinking was that as Oregon Corrections

18 Enterprise was engaging in the manufacturing of items that

19 the Boy Scouts could potentially purchase that it would be

20 a good marketing event to -- I believe he hosted a table

21 at -- at a fund-raising event, and Mr. Williams' logic was

22 that that could be a good advertising slash marketing

23 business move.

13:53:21 24 Q And you agreed with that.

25 A I did.


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13:53:23 1 Q What items could the Boy Scouts purchase that would

2 fall within that category?

3 A I don't remember the specifics.

13:53:37 4 Q And what was the size of the contribution to the Boy

5 Scouts?

6 A I do not know.

13:53:41 7 Q Have the Boy Scouts ever made any purchases from OCE?

8 A I do not know.

13:53:50 9 Q But you agree that could be a good business approach?

10 A Yes.

13:54:02 11 Q And so did you learn of any other objection

12 Mr. Killgore made before assuming the directorship in

13 2012?


13:54:16 15 Q After assuming the directorship in 2012, did you

16 learn of any objection he was continuing to make?

17 A Yes. He brought concerns forward to me.

13:54:26 18 Q And what concerns did he first bring to you?

19 A I don't re -- I won't be able to recall the list of

20 concerns he brought forward or in what order, but some --

21 another one that I'm remembering is a concern he had

22 around purchasing items during corrections employees week.

13:54:50 23 Q And what was the basis for his objection there?

24 A The sense that I got from Rob is that, while he felt

25 like there was legal support to provide some level of


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1 goodwill, if you will, to the Department of Corrections,

2 that in his mind it had gotten out of hand. I don't know

3 that he specifically objected to the purchasing of goods

4 during corrections employees week, it was more the

5 magnitude of it all.

13:55:27 6 Q And did he offer up any information that shed light

7 on his opinion as to why it had gotten that way?

8 A I don't believe he did.

13:55:38 9 Q Did you ask any probing questions about that?

10 A I don't remember any specific questions, but I know

11 we had lengthy conversation and -- or even conversations,

12 and it concluded with trying to provide clarity around the

13 issue based on the legal determination. And as I

14 mentioned earlier, the conversations resulted in the two

15 of us signing a memorandum of understanding between the

16 two agencies and communicating that out to DOC and OCE

17 personnel, in hopes to provide that clarity.

13:56:13 18 Q Did Mr. Killgore raise with you his concern about the

19 Buddy Herron funeral expenses?

20 A He did.

13:56:21 21 Q So apparently he was not satisfied by Mr. Williams'

22 explanation.

23 A Correct. As I mentioned earlier, he brought it

24 forward; we had a thoughtful conversation around it; I

25 shared my logic and thinking, he shared his concerns. By


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1 the end of the conversation, he was in agreement with my

2 logic at that meeting.

13:56:43 3 Q Before sharing your logic about it, had you done any

4 work or research in the area?

5 A No. I remember relying on him to provide me, in that

6 conversation, kind of the background work that he had done

7 on the expenses.

13:57:03 8 Q What background work had he done that he shared with

9 you?

10 A I don't remember the specifics, except that I know it

11 included the DOJ memo.

13:57:15 12 Q One or more than one?

13 A For clarification, one or more of one of what?

13:57:18 14 Q Legal opinions from the Department of Justice.

15 A I believe it included two DOJ opinions.

13:57:25 16 Q And did you read them before sharing your logic?

17 A I did.

13:57:34 18 Q Did he also raise concerns with you about the earlier

19 item that he had raised with Mr. Williams, the Boy Scout

20 donation?

21 A Yes, he did.

13:57:43 22 Q And what did he say to you as to why he thought that

23 was inappropriate?

24 A I believe he wasn't convinced that they would become

25 a customer or client.


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13:58:01 1 Q Does that seem like a legitimate factor to take into

2 consideration?

3 A Absolutely. My question to him was, "Then why didn't

4 you pose that when Mr. Williams suggested the event?"

13:58:15 5 Q How do you know he didn't?


7 question, calls for speculation. Go ahead.

8 A Mr. Killgore told me he didn't and Mr. Williams told

9 me he didn't.

13:58:25 10 Q BY MR. BUSSE: Okay. And what was Mr. Killgore's

11 response?

12 A He -- I -- if I remember correctly, it was something

13 he hadn't really thought of at the time, it was something

14 that bothered him later.

13:58:36 15 Q Okay. Does that make sense to you?

16 A Yes.

13:58:43 17 Q Okay. Do you recall any other specific example

18 Mr. Killgore gave to you that was giving him pause for

19 concern about the propriety of what was going on?

20 A I don't recall any more specific examples, but it was

21 enough that it concerned me and I knew that we needed to,

22 one, ensure that there was clarity around this issue, and

23 I had hoped and in fact what did happen is it did provide

24 clarity by creating that memorandum of understanding.

13:59:26 25 Q Now, when he had these conversations with you, did


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1 you have conversations with anybody else about his

2 concerns?

3 A When Mr. Killgore had these conversations with me,

4 for clarity?

13:59:37 5 Q Yes.

6 A Yes.

13:59:38 7 Q Who did you speak with?

8 A So, I know that I had conversations with Deputy

9 Director Morrow, and many of our conversations, if not

10 all, I think, with Mr. Killgore were with Mr. Morrow. I

11 know I would have consulted the inspector general and the

12 Department of Justice.

13:59:59 13 Q Who in the Department of Justice?

14 A On this particular issue, I know I would have

15 consulted Jeff Vanvalkenburgh. But beyond that, I'm not

16 recalling specific attorneys.

14:00:17 17 Q Did you ask for an opinion from Mr. Vanvalkenburgh?

18 A No, but I know I discussed previous opinions.

14:00:26 19 Q Do you recall when those conversations were with

20 Mr. Vanvalkenburgh?

21 A I do not recall specifically.

14:00:46 22 Q Did Mitch Morrow also tell you that Mr. Killgore had

23 raised concerns with him directly about these

24 expenditures?

25 A Yes.


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14:00:56 1 Q And do you recall what examples Mr. Morrow gave to

2 you about the concerns Mr. Killgore was raising with him

3 directly?

4 A I do not recall the specifics.

14:01:09 5 Q Did you have one or more than one conversation with

6 Mr. Morrow about that?

7 A Multiple.

14:01:17 8 Q And did those conversations extend through 2012?

9 A Yes.

14:01:25 10 Q Did Mr. Morrow and Mr. Williams communicate to you

11 that Mr. Killgore was expressing concern that OCE was

12 being used by DOC as a slush fund?

13 A Yes.

14:01:47 14 Q Did you meet with Mr. Killgore and Mr. Morrow on or

15 about February 7th at which Mr. Killgore raised those

16 issues with you?

17 A I do not remember the exact date of the meeting, but

18 I know that there was a meeting and we discussed those

19 issues, and the slush fund issue was tied directly into

20 that -- those goodwill and marketing concerns that

21 Mr. Killgore had brought forward to me, as well.

14:02:16 22 Q Do you deny that the DOC had been using OCE as a

23 slush fund?

24 A Yes. I don't see that the agency was utilizing OCE

25 as a slush fund.


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14:02:32 1 Q And do you agree that it would be inappropriate for

2 it to do so?


4 question, vague, calls for speculation.

14:02:38 5 Q BY MR. BUSSE: You can answer.

6 A Yes.

7 MR. LIPPOLD: Can we take a break? We've

8 been at it for about an hour.

9 (A recess was taken.)

14:07:12 10 Q BY MR. BUSSE: At the meeting that you mentioned with

11 the three of you, Mr. Morrow, Mr. Killgore, and yourself,

12 did Mr. Killgore refer to the fact that he wanted to have

13 an independent review of OCE expenditures?

14 A I do not recall that request or recommendation.

14:07:30 15 Q Did you say that you didn't want to have an

16 independent review?

17 A I don't recall denying that request.

14:07:36 18 Q At that meeting, did he mention the PSU contract?

19 A I don't know specifically if the contract was

20 mentioned at that meeting.

14:07:46 21 Q Do you recall him saying that he wanted the PSU

22 contract to include a review of the OCE expenditures?

23 A I don't recall specifically. It wouldn't surprise

24 me; as you're doing a business case plan and review of an

25 organization like OCE, I would suspect that it would


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14:09:17 1 Q Did you say during that meeting, "It's perfectly okay

2 to hire relatives, so long as there's no, quote, wink

3 wink, end quote, involved"?

4 A I don't recall saying that, either.

14:09:27 5 Q Do you know whether Mr. Morrow involved himself in

6 the issues pertaining to his son during his son's

7 employment with the department?

8 A Yes.

14:09:37 9 Q What issues are you aware of that Mr. Morrow involved

10 himself with?

11 A I know that Mr. Morrow called Nick Armenakis to

12 inquire about why they were denying his son moving

13 expenses.

14:09:51 14 Q To ask about it?

15 A Yes.

14:09:53 16 Q Or to chastise Mr. Armenakis for the amount he was

17 paying his son?

18 A To ask him --

19 MR. LIPPOLD: Objection -- objection,

20 argumentative. Go ahead.

21 A To ask him about it.

14:10:07 22 Q BY MR. BUSSE: Do you have any information that

23 Mr. Morrow did anything but that in that conversation?

24 A No.

25 MR. LIPPOLD: Objection, vague.


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14:10:25 1 Q BY MR. BUSSE: At the meeting with the three of you

2 in early February, did you tell Mr. Killgore to set up a

3 meeting with Phil Keisling without Mr. Killgore present?


14:10:39 5 Q Was there any reason that you can think of here today

6 why you wanted to exclude Mr. Killgore from further

7 discussions with PSU about that contract?

8 A I --




14:10:57 12 Q BY MR. BUSSE: At that meeting, did you say that you

13 wanted to handle issues that Mr. Killgore was raising

14 through an MOU?

15 A I don't recall that it specifically came out of that

16 particular meeting, but I do know that the idea of an MOU

17 came out of discussions with Mr. Killgore.

14:11:17 18 Q That was your idea; right?

19 A Yes, I believe it was.

14:11:21 20 Q Okay. And you were aware that Neil Bryant was

21 advising Mr. Killgore on the language of the MOU that was

22 being developed afterwards; correct?

23 A I don't know that I knew Mr. Bryant was -- I don't

24 recall that Mr. Bryant was working on that particular

25 issue. I knew that he was consulting on the CAFR issue.


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14:11:43 1 Q And you also knew that he was working on the Ecotex

2 matter, as well; correct?

3 A Yes, that is correct.

14:11:57 4 Q And did you, when you found out he was working on the

5 CAFR issue, tell Mr. Killgore that he shouldn't be doing

6 that?

7 A Sorry, for clarification, that Mr. Bryant shouldn't

8 be consulting on the CAFR?

14:12:09 9 Q Right.

10 A No, I did not.

14:12:11 11 Q And did you tell Mr. Killgore that Mr. Bryant

12 shouldn't be consulting on the Ecotex matter?

13 A No, I did not, not until I learned that Neil Bryant

14 was hired without the knowledge of the Department of

15 Justice. As soon as I found out that he was on contract

16 without their knowledge and outside of the statutory

17 ability to do so, then I asked Mr. Killgore to end the

18 relationship with Mr. Bryant.

14:12:37 19 Q And did Mr. Killgore comply with that request?

20 A Yes.

14:12:50 21 Q Immediately.

22 A Yes.

14:12:50 23 Q And do you know whether it was Mr. Williams who had

24 approved the hiring of Mr. Bryant?

25 A I do not recall the former director approving that.


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14:12:58 1 Q Do you know whether or not he did?

2 A No.

14:13:11 3 Q Did you and Mr. Morrow and Mr. Killgore meet again

4 later in February on these same issues?

5 A I know we had multiple meetings throughout the year,

6 but the specific dates, sir, I don't remember.

14:13:26 7 Q At a February 22nd meeting, did you tell Mr. Killgore

8 that you did not want to -- want the Department of Justice

9 to review this matter?

10 A I do --



13 A For clarification, which matter?

14:13:47 14 Q BY MR. BUSSE: The expenditures of OCE funds.

15 A Again, I don't recall Mr. Killgore asking that the

16 Department of Justice request -- or, excuse me, ask me if

17 the Department of Justice should review his expenditures.

14:14:03 18 Q Did you tell Mr. Killgore, whether or not he

19 initially suggested it, that you did not want a DOJ review

20 of OCE expenditures?

21 A No, I do not recall denying that request.

14:14:14 22 Q No, I'm not asking -- This is independent of any

23 request, because you don't recall him making one.

24 A Okay.

14:14:21 25 Q I'm asking whether or not you told him, "I don't want


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1 a DOJ review of OCE expenditures."

2 A No, I do not recall saying that.

14:14:32 3 Q Did you and Mr. Morrow meet with Phil Keisling on or

4 about March 5th without Mr. Killgore present?

5 A Again, I do not recall the date, but I'm vaguely

6 remembering having a meeting with Mr. Morrow,

7 Mr. Killgore, and Phil in Dr. -- Easling? -- I forget his

8 last name.

14:15:02 9 Q Did you exclude Mr. Killgore from any meeting with

10 PSU officials for any particular reason?

11 A Not that I remember.

14:15:11 12 Q The contract in question was supposed to be a

13 contract between PSU and OCE; correct?

14 A Correct.

14:15:16 15 Q And by law, OCE is a semi-independent agency;

16 correct?

17 A Correct.

14:15:21 18 Q What does "semi-independent" mean to you?

19 A It is a legal status designated to very few agencies,

20 but it allows for revenue-generating ability that General

21 Fund agencies would not be able to engage in; therefore,

22 its semi-independent status primarily is for that reason

23 with Oregon Corrections Enterprise.

14:15:55 24 Q Do you believe that the Department of Corrections had

25 the authority to direct the expenditures of OCE?


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1 A I think -- Actually, I'm going to ask for

2 clarification. Are you talking about specific

3 expenditures?

14:16:13 4 Q Tell 'em how to spend their money.

5 A Um, I think that the actual expenditure of funds is

6 the responsibility of the administrator of the Oregon

7 Corrections Enterprise. I see it as my responsibility to

8 ensure that those monies are being spent wisely and, of

9 course, that they remain self-funded.

14:16:37 10 Q So you believe that the DOC director does not have

11 the authority to tell the director of OCE how to spend the

12 OCE funds; correct?

13 A No, I think the administrator of OCE is responsible

14 for the actual expending of funds. Where the

15 administrator takes the agency or what sort of business

16 case plan the administrator puts together, it's my

17 responsibility as the director of the Department of

18 Corrections to oversee that.

14:17:08 19 Q I don't think that answered my question. The

20 director of the Department of Corrections, in your view,

21 does that person have the authority to tell the director

22 of OCE how to spend OCE funds?

23 A I think it's the responsibility of the director of

24 the Department of Corrections to ensure that the way

25 they're spending those funds is in line with the vision


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1 and where I want that agency to go.

14:17:35 2 Q That's not my question.

3 A Maybe you could give me an example, maybe that would

4 be helpful.

14:17:40 5 Q Can the director of the Department of Corrections

6 tell the director of OCE, "I want you to spend 5,000 for

7 this"?


9 question, asked and answered. Go ahead.

10 A So again, my answer would remain the same.

14:17:57 11 Q BY MR. BUSSE: No. That's a different question, it's

12 can the -- in your view, sitting in your position today,

13 can you pick up the phone and tell the director of OCE to

14 make a particular expenditure? Do you have that authority

15 or not, in your view? Very simple question.

16 A I think in that particular example that I could pick

17 up the phone and call the administrator of OCE and as an

18 executive member in the agency it would be a conversation,

19 it wouldn't be a dictate like you're presenting it. It

20 would be -- it would be a conversation, there would be

21 push and pull as -- as an executive team member of the

22 agency who reports to me and serves at my pleasure.

14:18:44 23 Q I'm talking about authority, not how it works in

24 practice. Does the director of the Department of

25 Corrections have the authority, in your view, to tell the


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1 you would be acting inappropriately if you did make such a

2 directive --

3 A Again, I don't know that it would be inappropriate to

4 provide that specific of a direction, but I want to be

5 very clear that I understand my responsibility and roles,

6 which is I don't have expenditure authority at OCE.

14:20:43 7 Q When you say you don't know whether or not it would

8 be inappropriate, what do you mean by that?

9 A Um, I don't see that it would be inappropriate.

14:20:53 10 Q So it would be okay to do?

11 A Yes.

14:20:55 12 Q Thank you.

13 In March of 2012, did you issue a new

14 organization chart changing the OCE from having a dotted

15 line to a solid line in terms of DOC's authority over OCE?

16 A I did.

14:21:14 17 Q And why did you do that?

18 A Part of the vision that we had moving forward was

19 creating what we refer to as a four-legged stool and

20 figuring out how to take OCE, which had become very

21 disconnected from the agency, and making it more a part of

22 the policy group in terms of planning and visioning moving

23 forward. So I really wanted people to see OCE not as this

24 entity that was spinning out here by itself, but one that

25 was really acting in a symbiotic fashion with the other


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1 three major divisions.

14:21:52 2 Q And did anyone consult with anyone as to whether that

3 change would be legal, given the Constitutional setup?

4 A No, I don't believe I requested a legal analysis on

5 the organizational chart.

14:22:08 6 Q So Jeff Vanvalkenburgh was not consulted against

7 that -- consulted about that?


14:22:15 9 Q And you know of no recommendation he made against it.

10 A I do not.

14:22:23 11 Q In any event, there was no legal opinion that was

12 received by you on that subject.


14:22:32 14 Q So you acted alone in doing that.

15 A I don't know that I would have acted alone. The

16 reorganization was one that we talked about with policy

17 group in formulating and kind of creating it together.

14:22:46 18 Q By "alone," did you consult with anybody outside the

19 Department of Corrections before doing that?

20 A Before the reorganization?

14:22:55 21 Q Yeah, before you changed that to a solid line.

22 A Not that I recall. Certainly I don't recall ever

23 talking to anyone about moving it from a solid line to a

24 dotted line.

14:23:05 25 Q Mr. Killgore proposed a career readiness center at


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1 question, vague.

14:25:21 2 Q BY MR. BUSSE: You can answer.

3 A I recall generally having conversations with Rob

4 about his interactions with the union. I'm not

5 remembering specifics. I know there were concerns that

6 the union had brought forward early on, but those are

7 common; they seemed to be resolved in the meetings he was

8 having with AOCE at the time.

14:25:41 9 Q He was working on it?

10 A That's my recollection.

14:25:53 11 Q Okay. And had those concerns been resolved by the

12 fall?

13 A I don't recall the specific timeline.

14:26:00 14 Q Is it true Mark Warne resigned from the advisory

15 council when the contract with the AFL-CIO was signed?

16 A I do not -- I do not know.

14:26:21 17 Q Was Mr. Killgore involved in the resolution of the

18 ULP?

19 A I'm sorry, I don't recall the timeline or when the

20 ULP was resolved.

14:26:35 21 Q Okay. Do you know if his people were working on it?

22 A Yes, that's my understanding.

14:26:42 23 Q And who on his staff were working to get it resolved?


14:26:45 25 Q In July of 2012 during the annual audit commissioned


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1 by the Secretary of State's office, were you advised that

2 for that year's audit Mr. Killgore had disclosed any

3 illegal or unethical activities to the auditor?

4 A I was aware of that.

14:27:01 5 Q And that Mr. Killgore had received an opinion from

6 Neil Bryant to report the support of the Herron funeral?

7 A I was aware of that.

14:27:09 8 Q And did Mr. Killgore in August say that the State

9 CAFR had the same reporting requirement?

10 A Yes.

14:27:17 11 Q And on August 22nd, is it true that in a meeting with

12 you and Mr. Morrow and Mr. Killgore you said you didn't

13 want to report that incident?

14 A For clarification, it was not that I did not want to

15 report it. We had investigated what the situation was

16 about and what typically is reported in the CAFR report,

17 and I informed Mr. Killgore that something of this nature

18 is not something that's typically reported in a CAFR

19 report.

14:27:45 20 Q What investigation did you undertake before imparting

21 that advice?

22 A I spoke with both our assistant director responsible

23 for general services, who also is responsible for

24 reporting things in the CAFR report, as well as Neil

25 Bryant himself. And once both Neil Bryant and I had


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1 gathered all the facts as we knew them, we were both in

2 agreement that it did not need to go into the CAFR report.

14:28:10 3 Q Who was the assistant director that you spoke with?

4 A Tami Dohrman.

14:28:16 5 Q What did you tell her and what did she say to you?

6 A We just re -- explained the response -- Or, excuse

7 me, for clarification, Deputy Director Morrow spoke

8 directly with Ms. Dohrman --

14:28:27 9 Q Ah.

10 A -- and he explained to her the concerns that were

11 being brought forward, the amount that was spent, and the

12 determination that she made was that it was such a small

13 amount that is not something that would -- typically would

14 be reported in a CAFR report.

14:28:46 15 Q What did she say was the amount that above which you

16 would report it?

17 A I don't recall, but I remember there being a

18 substantial gap between the two amounts.

14:28:57 19 Q Are you an expert in what's to be reported in CAFR

20 and what's not to be?

21 A I am not.

14:29:07 22 Q And did you rely upon Mr. Morrow to impart all of the

23 information that would be necessary for Tami to provide

24 confident advice on the matter?

25 A Correct.


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14:29:20 1 Q Do you know whether or not he told her about the

2 Constitutional limitation that Mr. Killgore was raising on

3 the issue?

4 A I don't know specifically what they talked about.

14:29:34 5 Q This concern was in the context of that which

6 Mr. Killgore was raising, however; right?

7 A Correct. So I can assume it would be part of the

8 conversation, but I don't know for sure, I wasn't privy to

9 the conversation.

14:29:46 10 Q You would expect that he would raise that with her;

11 correct?

12 A Or -- I would either expect that Mr. Morrow would

13 raise it or, even more so, expect that Ms. Dohrman would

14 be familiar with that statute.

14:29:59 15 Q Do you know if she is?

16 A I do not know.

14:30:02 17 Q Did you ask Mr. Morrow whether or not they discussed

18 it?


14:30:06 20 Q Or her knowledge of it?


14:30:13 22 Q And then you say that you spoke with Neil Bryant. At

23 the meeting that you had with Mr. Killgore, did you say

24 that you didn't want to report -- I'm sorry.

25 Did you say in that meeting that Mr. Killgore


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1 had supported activities like that before?

2 A I don't recall specifically what I said, but I

3 remember thinking that I wasn't understanding the logic,

4 and so maybe that's the -- the quote that you have there.

5 I remember thinking that if the -- if the Buddy Herron

6 funeral expenses needed to go in the CAFR report, then all

7 these other concerns that Mr. Killgore brought forward

8 should go into the CAFR report, and so that's what made me

9 stop, pause, and ask questions and investigate a little

10 further, because it just seemed flawed on its face that we

11 were just pulling one thing out for the CAFR report.

14:31:26 12 Q Did you tell Mr. Morrow to ask Tami whether or not,

13 indeed and in fact, these other things should be reported

14 in the CAFR, given the fact that if you amalgamate their

15 value it's a much larger number?

16 A I don't remember specifically.

14:31:44 17 Q Do you recall whether or not the corrections week

18 activities came up in that conversation with Mr. Killgore?


14:31:56 20 Q How about the laundry contract?

21 A I don't recall specifics.

14:31:57 22 Q How about hiring practices?

23 A I don't recall if that came up in that -- during that

24 meeting.

14:32:12 25 Q Did Mr. Killgore ever claim that he had only made


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1 certain expenditures because he was under duress from

2 Mr. Morrow?

3 A Again, I don't remember when I learned of that

4 specific allegation. I know that's something that he

5 brought forward in the criminal investigation, but I don't

6 know if that was something I knew prior to that time.

14:32:37 7 Q Did you ever talk to Mr. Morrow about that?

8 A Yes.

14:32:42 9 Q When did you talk to Mr. Morrow about that?


14:32:45 11 Q What did you ask him?

12 A I don't recall specifically what I asked him. I know

13 that we've had conversations around kind of learning the

14 history of who was hired, who was recommended. And much

15 of it I had remembered, having been at the Department of

16 Corrections before, but some of it was new to me, and so

17 it was more of an education around -- around those --

18 those hires.

14:33:14 19 Q And did Mr. Morrow -- Well, did you ask him

20 straight-out, "Did you apply any duress on any of these

21 hires?"

22 A I didn't have to ask him straight-out; he was

23 forthcoming to me that he did not.

14:33:27 24 Q Oh, okay. So he preempted the question by saying, "I

25 never did anything like that."


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1 A Correct.

14:33:37 2 Q Okay. At that same meeting with Mr. Killgore at

3 which these issues were discussed, did Mr. Killgore say he

4 refused to submit the State CAFR without the disclosure of

5 the Herron funeral unless Neil Bryant reversed his

6 opinion?

7 A I don't recall him making that statement, but that

8 would seem within reason --

14:34:01 9 Q Okay.

10 A -- since he had seen legal -- received legal advice.

14:34:06 11 Q Did you say that you would talk to Mr. Bryant to get

12 him to do that?

13 A I said I would engage in a conversation with

14 Mr. Bryant, but not necessarily to -- with the

15 preconceived notion that I would be able to sway him to

16 change his decision.

14:34:18 17 Q Isn't that -- wasn't that the intent of your contact

18 with Mr. Bryant?


20 question, argumentative. Go ahead.

21 A I'm happy to discuss my intent. It wasn't that. It

22 really was to engage in a conversation and share my

23 thinking around the need to put it in the CAFR. And at

24 the conclusion of the conversation, Neil Bryant shared

25 with me that he had no experience or any background with


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1 the CAFR report. And so once I provided the information

2 that we had received from Ms. Dohrman, he was very

3 comfortable -- it was my opinion that he was very

4 comfortable stating that it no longer needed to be in the

5 CAFR report.

14:34:59 6 Q BY MR. BUSSE: What did you share with him about your

7 view of the need to put it in the CAFR?

8 A Some of the logic that I shared with you just minutes

9 ago around how it just didn't seem right that if there was

10 one portion that needed to go in the CAFR report then why

11 not everything else. And so I investigated further and

12 learned that it's really a substantial amount of money

13 lost before you put anything in the CAFR report. And once

14 he had that background and information, he changed his

15 opinion.

14:35:33 16 Q What was substantial -- what did you learn about the

17 substantial amount of money?

18 A Again, as I said earlier, I don't recall the amount.

19 I'm sure I had it, sir, at the time of my conversation

20

colette peters deposition

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