clotaire rapaille interview - broadcast

5/28/2018 Clotaire Rapaille Interview - Broadcast

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Dr. Clotaire RapailleFounder and CEO ofArchetype Discoveries Worldwide

Interviewed by Fernando Luzio

To celebrate the first birthdayof our Program, we went to NewYork especially to interview Dr.Rapaille, the founder, CEO andchairman of Archetype Disco-veries Worldwide.

We have had the opportunityto work with Dr. Rapaille for twoyears, breaking strategic Codesfor companies in USA andBrazil.

We are also celebrating thesignature of a new agreementbetween Luzio Strategy Consul-ting and Archetype DiscoveriesWorldwide, to become againtheir affiliated firm in Brazil.

Dr. Gilbert Clotaire Rapailleis an internationally known

expert in Cultural Archetypes,Creativity and Innovation whofounded the Archetype Disco-veries Worldwide in 1976. Basedin Tuxedo (NYC), Archetype has

associated offices in Belgium,China, Turkey, England, Paris,Mexico, Italy, India, SouthKorea, Southeast Asia, Russiaand Brazil.

Dr. Rapaille introduced abreakthrough concept to thecorporate world: the CultureCode, which has proved to be apowerful methodology for morethan half of the Fortune 500companies, such as Boeing,L'Oreal, General Motors,AT&T, Citibank, Chrysler, Col-gate, Fox, Kraft General Foods.

His unique approach tomarketing and strategy combi-nes deep psychoanalysis with abusinessman's attention to prac-

tical concerns.He has written more than 14books. His last book TheCulture Code ranked 9th in thebestseller list of BusinessWeek

and has been translated into 12languages in Korea alone,The Culture Code has soldmore than 250.000 copies. He isa very much sought-after lectureron Creativity, Communicationand Cultural literacy.

Dr. Rapaille's technique andwork are a creative and innova-tive extension of the work doneby many great thinkers of the20th century, including Jung inPsychoanalysis; Laing in Psychi-atry; Levi-Strauss and RuthBenedict in Anthropology.

His world travels and exten-sive marketing research onproducts, services and brandarchetypes for corporations and

governments, have given him afresh perspective on Americanand global businesses and theinteraction among the Americas,

This is not a

traditional

marketing

research or

study. This is a

different thing.

What we do is

called a

Discovery: we

discover

something that is

there but we

cannot see it.

Dr. Clotaire Rapaille

N24-Novembe

r2012

!Anniversary E"tion

The completev video and audioof this interview are

available on our website:

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Europe, the Middle East and Asia.For the past 30 years Dr. Rapaille

has accumulated data, and developeda powerful process to understand thegolden question: WHY people dowhat they do?

Fernando Luzio. Dr. Rapaille,thank you very much for this uniqueopportunity, and we are honored to

interview you at your home. We wouldlike to start off this interview by askingyou to tell us briefly the story of yourinteresting life.

Dr. Rapaille. I started being veryinterested while working with autisticchildren and studying the way theylearn a language. Some of them havea difficult time learning any kind oflanguage, and I was trying tounderstand what the mental process tolearn a word was; whatever the word.

I worked in Switzerland with

children who were trying to learnFrench, German, and Italian thethree major languages. And at thetime I made a series of little discoverieson how the brain functions. Mydiscovery then was that each time youlearn a word there is a moment ofimprint. There is a moment when youimprint for the first time what is coffee,what is love, what is work, what isanything. And when you imprint youcreate a mental reference system thatyou should keep using for the rest ofyour life.

And while working with thesechildren, I realized that when they werefrom French, Swiss, Italian, or Germanorigin, they were using differentlanguages of course but at the sametime the whole experience was different.Suddenly they were discovering a worldthrough the word.

And I can give you an example: thedifference between the German and theFrench regarding the sun and themoon very important elements in aculture. In France, you learn that the

sun is masculine lesoleil lesoleilis theSun King, fortune, it is brilliant andpowerful because in French culture manis supposed to be like this: brilliant anddominant. The moon is feminine lalune has a hidden power, but at night itgoes up and down. When you are a littlechild you learn about the sun and aboutthe moon, but you learn more than justthe word sun and moon; you learnabout all the gender system, differencesbetween men and women and all thesemental categories without even beingaware of it.

Now, when you are German, there isa big issue, because the opposite is true:for the German, the sun is a female sonne. And they would say Of course,

why do you ask?It is obvious!. Womanis the one that shines, she is warm andmakes the children grow, so the sun isfemale. And the moon is a man mondbecause German men are always intodark and deep things, philosophy

So my discovery at the time was thatwe need to be careful, because thetranslation of the word doesnt meananything. If you translate the word sun

from French into German you may losesignificance because there is always adeeper and more powerful meaning tothe word.

Let me give you an example of asimple consequence of that. If you wantto sell shampoo in Germany andFrance, and you use the sun as areference, you trigger a completelydifferent response in each culturewithout being aware of it. That is whatis very key here.

I gave a conference at the Universityof Geneva, and one of my studentsasked his father to come to my lecture,he was working for Nestl and he saidYou know, what you discovered here the deep meaning of the first imprintabout the word might be very usefulfor us because we want to sell instantcoffee in Japan and we are not verysuccessful in trying to get them to switchfrom tea to coffee which wasobviously not the right strategy, so theymade me an offer I could not refuse andI went to Japan and discovered theJapan Code for coffee. Then LOreal,

associated with Nestl, and started toexpand around the world.I was invited to teach in different

business schools around the world. I

published several books and that is howit went.

FernandoLuzio. Could you explainwhat the Culture Code is?

Dr. Rapaille. In every culture, theculture pre-organizes the way you dealwith something in that culture. Mydefinition of culture is: a survival kitinherited at birth in order to survive. So,at a certain time in a certain environ-ment and geography and so on, youneed this knowledge in order to survive.It is transmitted from one generation tothe next and after a while, you donteven question it anymore, it doesntmatter.

So the first time you learn aboutcoffee, like for example in Italy, its verydifferent from the first time that youlearn about coffee in America. This iswhy in America you drink liters ofcoffee everyday and survive, but if itwas Italian brewed coffee I would bedead at the end of the day. So there is avery strong difference of the meaning ofcoffee in Italy and the meaning ofcoffee in America.

There is a first imprint that ispreviously organized by the culture, andwhen we did this work on coffee inAmerica we discovered that the firstimprint is not TASTE, the first imprintis the AROMA. For the Americanculture the smell of coffee is very strong,it is unique and the first imprint ofcoffee happens when you are two years

old. The whole culture imprint is ofmother preparing breakfast in the kit-chen and the feelings evoked: I amgoing to be fed, she loves me, I am home

Dr. Rapaille introduced a break-

through concept to the corporate

world: the Culture Code, which

has proved to be a powerful

methodology for more than half of

the Fortune 500 companies.

His last book The CultureCode was ranked 9th in the

bestseller list of

BusinessWeek and has been

translated into 12 languages

in Korea alone, It has sold

more than 250.000 copies.

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and I am safe all of these words are very powerful and verypositive. But this is the American culture Code for coffee, notItalian or German.

As a strategy we decided that Folgers should own thearoma and forget about the taste. Let the competitors dealwith the taste, because the Culture Code for coffee inAmerica is AROMA, so then everything should be on codewhich means that the package, the design (we injected thearoma on top of it and when you open it, shhhshssh, thearoma comes out in your face) and all the commercial aspects

should be on code with AROMA.I told them I never want to see the brand Folgers associated

with somebody drinking coffee no way! And they weresurprised But we are selling coffee, and I said No, you arenot selling coffee, your are selling the AROMA. Let theothers sell the taste..

So this is the definition: the Culture Code is a referencesystem (like mother, breakfast, home, safeness and so on)imprinted at a very early age through the energy of theemotion that is associated with this reference system, and theCode is what activates it. So the Code for coffee is AROMAand AROMA activates all the reference system.

FernandoLuzio. And could you provide us an overview

of the Archetype Discovery process itself and its differencefrom a traditional marketing research?Dr. Rapaille. Sometimes its difficult to explain that this is

not a traditional marketing research or study. This is adifferent thing. What we do is called a Discovery: we dis-cover something that is there but we cannot see it and we arenot familiar with it.

And how do we do that? We follow the 3 Brains Principle:we have 3 brains. The first one is the Cortex; the second oneis the Limbic; and the third one is the Reptilian the very oldpart of the brain. And my theory is that the Reptilian alwayswins, it doesnt matter what you do, if you get the reptilian,boom!

The process is done with groups of people and in threehour sessions, where we guide them back to the very first timein their lives that they imprinted through emotion thatswhat we want to discover. First, in order to do that, we haveto eliminate the Cortex at the first hour when we let themspeak. We dont care about what they speak of, because wedont believe in what people say. This first hour is like apurge, a washing out session and when they finish they arehappy because they think they have made a greatcontribution but we dont learn anything new, theresnothing serious in here.

The second hour is more emotional within the Limbic where the contradictions are and also the tensions. The bestway for me to explain this world of tension is through mywork around the world about mothers and how they relate totheir children, how they feed them and so on. Around theworld in China, India, Italy, France, Germany, and Brazil mothers tells me I want my children to grow and I dontwant them to grow; I want them to be independent and Idont want them to be independent; Oh, they are so cutewhen they are little. So there is this tension and everymother can feel that: she wants her children to grow becausethis is a program and at the same time she doesnt want themto leave.

When my clients say We want our customers to love ourproducts, I ask them Why? Do you want your customers tolove your products and never buy them, or do you want your

customers to hate your products and always buy them?.There is not an immediate correlation. So the key elementthat we want to create with the Code that we discovered is anintense relationship, because love-hate sometimes is verypowerful and creates long-term relationships. At this second

hour people get confused, they dont know what they aredoing anymore, and this is good.

Then at the third hour, they lie down on the floor and weexplain that we want to recreate the same mental activity thatthey have when they wake up in the morning. Why? Becausewhen you wake up in the morning, usually for 5 to 10minutes, the Cortex is not there yet it usually arises late forwork in the morning so there is no control, you are still inthe connection between the Reptilian and the Limbic andyou can still remember your dreams. But if you dont write

them down or recall them right away, 5 to 10 minutes laterthey are gone. And this is the kind of running activity that wewant to recreate at the third hour, which is very unique.

When people are there, lying down on the floor after amoment of relaxation, things come up in their minds andthey would tell me Oh, its amazing, something came backthat I forgot for 30-40 years ago. After that, they write downtheir first stories, so the document that we get is handwritten.Then we study the structure, the pattern in all these stories.We look at the space in-between, if you may.Lvi-Strauss,my professor, used to say that the mother is not a woman, amother is a space between a woman and a child so, nochildren, no mother; no mother, no children. Its the space

in-between that you have to understand.It is very interesting this notion of structure: music is notmade of notes; music is the space between the notes. You canplay different notes in a piano with your left or right hand, orin different instruments, but the only thing that you mustrespect is the space in-between and this is what wediscovered: what is the space in-between the differentelements of those stories? What is the space in-betweenthat creates the unconscious reference system, theunconscious melody that people use and activate when theythink about the brand, the product, a category, a country?This is unconscious, so you have to find a process to reveal it,you cannot see it right away.

There is a truth, a real thing and a very important part of

this methodology: it is anonymous. I have already done a lotof work on subjects that are very taboo. My first work withP&G (Procter & Gamble) was on toilet paper. Imagine thatyou are invited to a focus group session with 20 strangers andfor 2 hours you are going to explain how you use toilet paper!You dont get much out of that. People would say I want itsoft, on sale, thank you very much, can I go now?. But whenI was doing this work, because of the whole process involved,what we discovered was absolutely powerful and veryemotional.P&G was amazed: We never found anything likethat! after that I made more than 30 Code Discoveries forP&G.

Fernando Luzio. We are fascinated with all the Codes

you have already broken; however two of them are veryprovocative and insightful for individuals and companies.Can you share some of your findings on the Codes of Beautyand Luxury?

Dr. Rapaille. I am going to tell you a bit more than whatyou can find in my books, because I have already done morework on that subject.

Beauty is a very Reptilian thing. We are programmed tofind beautiful what is useful for our Reptilian brain. So evenwhen we go into Music, Art, Opera and Painting there isalways something there that is very Reptilian.

And I want to give you an example: womens beauty. Someresearch has been done by a couple from India on what is the

most beautiful shape of a womans body every culture isinterested in that! They studied the womans body in differentcultures and centuries through sculptures and paintings they went back to the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, etc.

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They put electrodes in every part ofthe body of a group of men and showedthem some pictures of women to findout which one would make themexcited. They didnt have to speak, so ifthe system makes an IHH sound, itmeans they were excited; and if itmakes an OHH sound, it means theywere not excited.

And what they found was a kind ofunconscious and global structure Codefor Beauty. When a womans body isstraight, it sounds OHH, meaning thatnobody is excited and as a trigger, as amessage for my Reptilian brain itdoesnt tell me anything. But if the bodyof a woman is like an hour-glass, itsounds IHH, and all the men getexcited. Why?

First of all, we are not so dumb afterall because we are programmed to finda woman that gives us more chance forour genes to reproduce. When a woman

has a straight body, we never even trythat woman, because it means we wouldbe wasting our time. But when a womanhas an hour-glass body, the message isWow! She is the woman.

And they found another veryinteresting thing: the key trigger is therelationship ratio between the waist andthe hips, and it has to be 0.7. So if theratio is 0.7, it sounds IHH around theworld! Amazing!

And more: the women who have 0.7ratio, have more children, live longerand have less cancer. So we are not sodumb after all! Also very interesting, isthat it is not a question of how fat youare, because you can be very fat but stillhave a ratio of 0.7 and it will sound

IHH.It is not fat, it is fat distribution, it isa matter of wheredo you put your fat.

Because of this discovery we canunderstand fashion: why the Egyptiansinvented the corset 5.000 years ago?Because the corset was meant totighten, to make the waist smaller andto get 0.7 ratio. Why did the Frenchinvent these dresses with big volume?Again, to create that dimension.

So it starts making sense, it is not justby chance, random or accident that athing like that happens. It happensbecause unconsciously we have aperception of beauty that is very key.There are a lot more elements for theCode of Beauty

Also, Luxury varies from one cultureto another. For example, in Frenchculture Luxury should be useless; inAmerican culture, nothing should beuseless. So in the United States, if youhave a scarf around your neck its

because you are afraid to get a cold, sothis is not Luxury. But in France, if youput a scarf on your shoulders and youdont need it because your shouldersare not going to get a cold , that isuseless, that is the beauty of elegance. Ifyou need it for some reason, its notelegant. The same works with Luxuryconcerning food in France: you shouldnot eat because you need food. You eatfor pleasure. You should not drink winebecause you are thirsty if you arethirsty, drink water. Wine is for thepleasure.

American culture is very opposite. Ithas to have a purpose. The notions hereare very different. By the way, there area lot of similarities between Luxury in

France and in China. The Chinesearistocracy and the Chinese Emperorhave a sense of Beauty and they think itis very pure, not a mundane purpose.

What we discovered recently forseveral clients is that there is a globalCode for Luxury, which is veryinteresting. And this Code is one verysimple word that leads us to understandLuxury worldwide and that is thebeauty of this work that we do. What isthis word? HAND. The future ofLuxury is going to be HAND, which isnot made in France or made inChina. It is made BY HAND, bespoke.It is not even Luxury anymore but thepassion of an artist, an craftsman(artisan) that is going to do something byhand, very carefully and tailor made.

Herms is a very good example of acompany that is very successfulworldwide and they dont even use theword Luxury! I spoke to them recently

in Paris and they said We are not reallyinto Luxury, we are into crafts-manship., back to almost medievaltimes where we have the craftsman wholoves le travail, who has to work veryhard before he became a matre, amaster in his art and craftmanship. So,things done by hand: amazing!

The new Rolls Royce, for example: allthe leather inside is done by hand andvery carefully, and, sous mesure, tailormade. A very big issue. Some brandscannot do it completely, but they canoffer an element of that. The MiniCooper, for example: you can chooseand pick up something special just foryou, you can put a British flag on theroof, for example.

The future of Luxury is going to be

HAND, which is not made in France

or made in China. It is not even

Luxury anymore but the passion of an

artist, an craftsman that is going to

do something by hand, very carefully

and tailor made.


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So this is the direction of Luxury.Mass production is not going to beLuxury, no way. Only things done byhand and unique.

Ive just bought a Herms sofa inFrance and they told me You have topay upfront and there is a 6 monthsdelay. You have to wait for 6months..Because it takes time to createLuxury. So once in a while I can go andsee the progress of my sofa: 3 people areworking hard on it, doing it by hand,they test a piece of leather, tryanother it is an art! They are artists.

In French, craftsman (artisan) andartist are almost the same word. I likeit very much because it gives a lot ofvalue to the talent of some people andtheir passion, to the dedication andcommitment they have to do a good job.So I think that mass production is notinteresting anymore. On the otherhand, the price of mass production is

going down all the time, while the priceof Luxury is going up without limits.Now you have a Bugatti car that costs2.5 million dollars, so where is the limit?This is very special, very unique.

Fernando Luzio. Concerningindividuals, can we be discovered? Do Ihave a Personal Code? Do you knowyour Personal Code?

Dr. Rapaille. Oh yes, of course, thisis fascinating because when I workedwith children, there was a very keyelement: at the beginning, when babies

are together and one baby cries, theothers start to cry because they dont seethe difference between one baby andthe others. Then after a certain timethere is a moment in the childsevolution when he says No for thefirst time, and then he says I, I wantthat, I dont want that.

This first discovery of your identity isquite amazing, so if you have differentbrothers and sisters, or if you are alone,all that system at a certain time createsyour identity, and at that moment you

start to have the imprint of your Code.And after that, there is repetition andreinforcement and then your environ-ment and your parents reinforce yourideas, which can be negative, of coursein case of neurotic people: Hey, youwill never be able to do anything, youare a bad boy!. But, if you getreinforcement into another direction, itis very interesting, and you start to beconfident.

So it takes time to discover yourPersonal Code, of course, but it is veryimportant to understand it, and if you

know your Code you might not make amistake in choosing your job. You willfind a job that is on code with you.Maybe you choose the best place foryou to live in the world, and all these

should help to reinforce your own Code.The big problem for many individuals isthat they get confused, they want to dothis and that also, and the result of thisconfusion is procrastination they dontdo anything and they dont succeed.

Napoleon knew exactly what he was,of course that it could be dangeroussometimes (laughs), but he knew hisCode and people said You are crazy,who do you think you are?!, Well, Iam the Emperor. And when he wasimprisoned in his island by the British,one of the big, big sufferings that he hadat that time was that the British refusedto call him The Emperor.

So yes, it is very important to discoverand know your Code and then startmanaging your life in some ways to beon code with it.

And your question about Do youknow your Code?, yes, of course Iknow my Code very much. I have

several models in my life, and my num-ber one model is Champollion. He wasa young guy that went to Egypt withNapoleon, and he did something that Ido every day: he looked at thehieroglyphs that had been there for 400to 500 years (I dont remember exactly)and nobody was able to understandwhat was written there. He was the firstone to be able to decode to find thecode, and then to start reading thingsthat were there, but nobody could see it.And that is my life: to look at a thingthat nobody can understand and decodeit. And suddenly, wow, everything makessense.

My name is Clotaire and it is verysimilar to Voltaire, and Voltaire for meis another model. What I like about himis his ability to be a philosopher, anartist, a poet, a scientist and at the sametime a good businessman. He was a verygood businessman! So my Code isVoltaire with a little bit of Champollionand a little bit of Alexis de Tocquevilleand so on.

In a final word, my Code is FRENCH

18thCENTURY. I love everything aboutthe 18thcentury I dont like the way itended because the French Revolutionwas a disaster, it killed people for noreason and from 1715 (at the death ofLouis XIV) to 1789 that is where youhave the most fantastic people: you haveMontesquieu, Voltaire and Mozart forme the best music and I love Mozart.The 18th century is lart de vivre,elegance, style, beauty, a pleasure of lifeand the main purpose of the Frenchculture at that time I know it is kind ofsuperficial in a way was elegance andpleasure. That was fantastic, so that ismy century and I am sure that in aformer life I was a philosopher overthere.

FernandoLuzio. Ive always seen astrong connection between Strategy andthe Culture Code.

We define Strategy as the set ofchoices and trade-offs a company doesin order to achieve a perception ofSingularity in the customers mind,raising its willingness to pay andcreating economic value. Today, in thebusiness environment in any place in theworld, its not a battle of productsanymore; it is a fierce competition ofbusiness models. Thats why companieshave been developing capabilities inchallenging their strategy, to what wecall Business Model Innovation. Itstarts with a deep understanding of thecustomers concerns, aspirations andbehavior. By doing so, we can challengethe companys value proposition, alsodesign more convenient ways to reachcustomers (channels), and more appro-priate customer relationships some of

the building blocks of the strategy.How can we use an archetype disco-

very to reveal a better picture ofcustomer needs and, therefore, producepowerful insights and bring competitiveadvantages to the company?

Dr . Rapaille. It is crucial tounderstand what people really want, butat the same time we cannot believe whatthey say. So obviously we cannot just askthem about what they are not aware of.So, any corporation today has tounderstand the unspoken, the uncons-

cious and the unaddressed need of thecustomer what do they want that theyare not even aware of? And if you wantto be ahead of the competition youneed to be the first one to discover whatthey really want. And this is what we do.

Let me give you an example. Youhave worked with me at Boeing, one ofmy clients. One day they told me Wewill design airplanes, we have tocompete against the European Airbusand to be ahead of it, and we want toknow what people really want in an

airplane..So during the Archetype Discoveryprocess we discovered that they have noidea of what people want because theylistened to them, and when you askpeople what do they want in anairplane, they say I want leg room,good food, good entertainment, goodservice, all the movies and everythingand the airplane companies say Letsdo it. The Europeans believed thecustomers, so they built the big Airbus(A380) where you are going to die with800 people, for Gods sake!

What we discovered was that this isnot what they want. When people withmoney travel, they always take a privatejet where they have no leg room, no food,

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no entertainment and no service and they pay 10times more for the private jet. Why? Becausewhen you use a private jet what you get is NOAIRPORT. What people really want is NOAIRPORT.

Now, think about the beauty of this discoverybecause everybody is building bigger and biggerairports, but I predicted that what people want isNO AIRPORT. Why? Because I usually say thatairports have been designed by mentally retarded

engineers! I mean this is the worst place that youwant to go through! All the notion of being ableto arrive with your car next to a private jet in onestep from the car to the plane is the idealsituation. Look at the absurdity of thesecorporations and airports, where they keep addinga step: now you have to take your luggage there,then you have to go there, then you have to go tosecurity, then you have to take off your shoeseach time there is one more step!

That is why we designed the Boeing 787 (theDreamliner), which is a big success for Boeing. Itsan airplane that competes with the Airbus

because, in the case of the big Airbus, if you wantto go from Paris to Detroit, you have to go to ahub you have to go to Chicago, change planes,they lose your luggage, the plane is delayed and allthose things. The Dreamline is the opposite, wedid not suppress completely airports, but LESSAIRPORT should be the right direction. So theAirbus only goes through hubs because it needslots of space.

The Dreamliner can go from anywhere toanywhere, nonstop. So when I have to flycommercial, I say I want nonstop, andsometimes they try to cheat me saying Itsdirect, No, I dont want direct, I wantnonstop!. Because they say direct, but you have tochange planes in Sao Paulo (laughs).

Now, let me tell you what is going to happen:India is very backwards in terms of infrastructure,and they started investing a lot of money buildingbig airports. However, they are so big now thatthey have to be away from the city. Like Denver

International Airport, which I call The DumbestInternational Airport in the World it is so faraway from Denver that you have to take a car anddrive for one hour! When we know that whatpeople want is NO AIRPORT.

So what is technology going to do? We alreadyhave technology for airplanes to take off withoutairports, so we dont need airports. Technology isnow using a technique where you can take offfrom the roof of any building; it is solely for

military purposes.Second, we have the technologyto make all airplanes silent no noise. Of course,today it costs too much money and we are notthere yet; but remember that at the very beginningof the car, you needed to have a guy with a flagand a trumpet in front of the car to go through avillage, and at that time they said Oh, this willneverbe generalized, nobody is going to have carseverywhere because you need a trumpet and aflag. So it is the same reaction today withairplanes We are never going to have planes,because it costs too much money to develop..

And third, we are now developing private jets

for 1.5 million dollars, cheaper than the Bugatti!Private jets are going to be so cheap that they aregoing to be like the taxi. Taxis!

If I want to go from here to Detroit which isnot too far I have to take one hour to go fromhere to the airport, then I have to arrive two hoursbefore the flight, then usually the flight is onaverage, half an hour to 45 minutes late thisadds another hour then I have a 2 hour flight,then when I arrive there I have to wait for myluggage and then I need another hour, so thatsalready 9 hours! That is the time that it takes meto drive there!

When I used to work for GM I went to Detroitdriving because it was better. I can stop when Iwant, I can take all the luggage that I want, Imnot insulted by security guys. But in the future Iwill have the plane arriving in the park over hereand taking me there, and a two hour flight will bea two hour flight.

And if you want

to be ahead of

the competition

you need to be

the first one to

discover what

they really want.

And this is whatwe do.


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...I dont like this word Sustainability because you dont

want to sustain, you want to improve, you want to

increase, you want to grow. The word Sustainis like

using the break and stop. Zero growth is not Reptilian,

thats why Sustainability in terms of slogan and philosophy

has a hard time, because it is almost like giving up the

Reptilian.


Customers dont calculate time the same way that airlinesdo they give you the time from the departure gate to thearrival gate. No, my time is from my home to my meeting inDetroit, that is the real time! So whatcustomers want? Theywant the time of travel to be the real time, they dont want tolose all this time in-between and this is what is going to besuccessful in the future.We can already see, for example, thepeople that manufacture small private jets making a fortune.And you are going to tell me Oh, but this is only for a

minority, a small group of people.. Yes, like cars in thebeginning of the 20thcentury were just for a minorityI predicted that in the future all these crazy airports that

they are building in India and China are going to be like amuseum of the past because nobody is going there, theywont need them. What happened to horses and carriages isgoing to happen to airports! Again and again, what peoplewant is NO AIRPORT, this is it. Big airport with more trafficjam is not the purpose!

So this is the evolution, but in order to forecast and topredict the future we have to understand this.

FernandoLuzio. Many traditional Business Models, suchas the media, publishing, automobile, energy industries and

others, are being challenged and threatened by disruptingtechnologies and other social phenomena.In your opinion, for example, the physical book will

disappear in the coming years? How can the Archetype

Discovery process help these industries redesign theirBusiness Models and readapt?

Dr. Rapaille. It is very interesting because I have beencontacted by Penguin in London, we have been workingtogether and they want to understand the Code for books.

What is a book? Why do we need a book? I usually say thatthe Reptilian always wins and a book is something that youcan touch and feel and carry, it has a weight, it has a soundwhen you move it around, there is a sensitive relationship

with the book. You dont have that with an e-book, you donthave that with an iPad. So there is a dimension in the bookthat you dont have in other devices.

Besides that, we have done a lot of work on Internet andtechnology and found that you lose so much time on thesethings! If I take a book and go to page 190, and if you havean iPad I will reach page 190 before you. So you have tolose time to save time. And I dont lose time when I want togo through my book.

We have done a lot of work on Creativity. Our brain is verysensitive to the environment, to things that are over there butwe dont pay attention conscientiously. We are influenced bythis environment. When I am in my library and I have all my

books over there, I know exactly where they are and I like totouch them, so there is a stimulation of the mind. Withdepth, the reality of the electronic world is that it is verysuperficial, it is quick and fast but superficial you will nevergo in-depth.

Dr. Rapailles residence inTuxedo (New York)

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Its quite interesting to see that Encyclopedia Britannicais now on the Internet. Some people have it on the Internetbut they want to see it in book form, so the big mortalmistake is to think that the electronic model is going toreplace it.

And in terms of the Reptilian brain: you might be able tosee your children on Skype, they can speak with you, but is itgoing to replace hugging them, kissing them, touching them,eating with them? It is never going to replace that. This isit!Its very simple.

And its quite amazing to see the evolution of Luxury rightnow in different places like California and Europe, where youhave hotels where there is no electricity at all. You are notallowed to have your cell phone or any computer, and there isno electricity, only candles, fire in the fire-place and books.And you pay 1.000 dollars a night, just to have the privilegeof not being disturbed by pim-pom-bin-bon.Suddenly yousee the need for the real thing.

After a while you need meditation, you need time to think,you need to have time to be with your children and to dosimple things, you need to touch people. That is why thebook is going to be handmade and by the way, I publisheda special anniversary edition of my book The Culture

Code it is signed, each book has a number, and at the endthere is an imprint of my hand. The symbol of Luxury: ahand-made book!

Again, that is the evolution. We try to create pocket booksthat have no value, but at the same time there is this leather-bound book that is very beautiful. And it is more than thecontent alone. I say the structure is the message, so when Ilike to touch the book its already a message for me. I donthave this feeling with things on the Internet.

But, when I want to do some research for writing my nextbook its good to have access to the Internet and all thereference system that I want, but it doesnt change the factthat I know where my books are and that they are like friendsin my life. There is a saying in French culture and I think it

works in English also: A house without books is like a manwithout a soul. So I dont think the electronic soul willreplace it.

Fernando Luzio. As you have already mentioned,Sustainability is the new moral of contemporary compa-nies. We are witnessing the challenges many companies facein order to educate and align their stakeholders with thedesired sustainable mindset and attitudes. How can weimprint sustainability in the corporate culture of modernorganization?

Dr. Rapaille. First of all, I dont like this word Sustain-ability because you dont want to sustain, you want toimprove, you want to increase, you want to grow. The wordSustain is like using the break and stop. Zero growth is notReptilian, thats why Sustainability in terms of slogan andphilosophy has a hard time, because it is almost like giving upthe Reptilian.

On the other hand, it is ridiculous to kill your customer. Ifyou kill your customer there is no customer anymore. Youdont want to cheat your customer, you dont want to takeadvantage of them, you dont want to take advantage of theenvironment, and you dont want to kill the environment.Why? Because then, after that, it will be you next.

So for the Reptilian mind you should create harmoniousrelationships of growth, not just to sustain, but growth andchange. One thing that we know for sure is that change is not

going to change, the world is changing all the time and to mesustainability means that you are able to anticipate thechanges and to be in harmony with the changes. I like betterthe word harmony than sustain a kind of repressing. I likemovement, I like growth, I like innovation, I like progress.

So for me, what is interesting is the notion of harmony inthe long-term and reciprocal growth. The notion ofreciprocity is very Chinese. When we did the Code for China,the Chinese didnt like Americans because Americans just usethem to make a sale and the Chinese dont. For the Chineseto respect you, you have to ask for reciprocity.

Sustainability, in the long-term, means that I take care ofyou and you take care of me. This is reciprocity and it is verymuch part of Confuciuss approach: we should take care ofeach other because it is an inter-relationship; we need each

other, so why do I want to win if you lose? It is not just win-win, it is more, it is permanent growth, and this should be thesame concerning the environment and the Planet.

And what is very important today is what we callanthropocentrism: for the first time humans are changing thePlanet and we are not paying attention to this fact.

As Buckminster Fuller said, The Planet Earth is aspaceship that has no pilot. I think that more than justprotecting the Planet, we need a pilot; we need someone thatcan say This the way we want this Planet to grow and this ishow we are going to do that..

Fernando Luzio. Strategy is closely related to humanbehavior, because in order to support the strategy execution,

people must change the way they usually work. At the sametime that people want change, they resist to change. Why?Do you believe that people can really change? How can theArchetype Discovery process help companies with ChangeManagement?

Dr. Rapaille. This is a very fascinating subject. My firstreaction is: yes, people can change.But it is very difficult; it issometimes a lot easier to get somebody else. The joke isDont change people, change people which means getsomebody else because it is lots faster.

Why is it so difficult to change? Because usually we wantpeople to change when its too late already and by the timewe arrive at the decision that we want change, we are already

too late.Going back to my experience with learning to speak andlearning languages I speak English with an accent because Ilearned English too late. Yet, my son Dorian speaks French,English and Spanish with no accent because he learned thesethree languages before he was five. So when you learnsomething at a very early age it is imprinted in your mindand it is very difficult to change.

My taste for cheese is a very French. Ive tried Americancheese, but I am not going to change and I dont want tochange because I like French cheese. There are someelements that you feel comfort with; there is a zone ineverybodys mind and unconscious where we are comfortablewith and we dont want to change that.

So changing individuals is possible but it is very difficult.What you can do is to find tensions in everybody. There arealways tensions in us: we love and hate, there are things thatwe like and things that we dont like, and we can move on thisaxis, we can be a little bit more of this or a little bit more ofthat. For example, I was born in France and I have manyimprints coming from the French culture, but during the warI had my first imprint of Americans: their tanks and theGerman running away. Immediately I imprinted that allAmericans are winners, are the strong guys and I wanted tobe one of them. After that I went to see Gary Cooper, JohnWayne, Burt Lancaster, and all the American movies and Iidentified with them. So I have some imprints on both sides

French and American.Now, do I want to change? Well, if I want to change in thesense that I want to work harder, I go to my American side;

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if I want to enjoy more luxury andpleasure, I go to my French side. So Iam not really changing, I am movinginto an axis that Ihave.

And one way to make people changeis to discover these axes that they havein their Code and help them to movemore in one way or another. So youdont change the axis, you dontimprint anymore because it is too latewhen you are 30, 40. What you can dois to discover these axes and thedirections that you might want tofollow; discover the elements that arealready there, make them consciousand push yourself in the direction thatyou want. Then, of course you will doit. But if someone tries to imposesomething from outside, you will notmove.

And corporations, can they change?Yes, they can change faster thangovernment and politicians because

there is a vote everyday: you either sellor you dont sell your product. And asuccessful way to make people changein a corporation is what I call shortfeedback: they should know immediatelythe results of their actions. The problemis that we delay the feedback and thereward try to train a horse by giving itfeedback once a year: you are nevergoing to train the horse; you need to doit right away.

I worked for MBNA Credit Card andI told them that when people are tryingto sell, they should have a goal, forexample: we want to sell 200.000 newCredit Cards today for the whole group.Then the numbers should be posted ona sing on top, showing how much wedid today 185.000, 190.000 sothen, they could see it immediately andget the results.

When you give employees a bonus atthe end of the year, they have noimmediate incentive. So I think thattechnology today makes it possible forpeople to really have a short feedbackand adjust their behavior according to

what they are doing right or wrong byseeing it right away. We dont use thattechnology, we use bureaucracy, wedelay, so everything is wrong.

Another example: 100.000 people dieevery year in America because ofmalpractices and mistakes in hospitals!Twice more than during the VietnamWar! How can we change that? Well,there is no signal showing whatphysicians are doing. There is nomeasure and no feedback about the waythey dispose all the waste; about the waythat they go from one patient to anotherwithout washing their hands. So if youstart putting signals each time aphysician washes his hands, they will beable to see by a visual curve that they

have improved. How many people putwaste in the right box? They wouldvisualize and they would want to dobetter tomorrow. People want to dogood. To show them they are doingbetter today than yesterday is a reward.It is simple. But if you dont show them,they dont know, so how can theychange?

Fernando Luzio. You have broken

the Code of many different cultures.What is your perception about thestrengths and weaknesses of Brazilianculture and how do they affect thecompetitiveness in our way of doingbusiness in a global world?

Dr. Rapaille. The clich is Brazil isthe country of the future and it hasbeen the country of the future for what,100 years? It seems that the future isnever arriving (laughs), but I think it isarriving.

I went to Brazil for the first time in

1969 to study the Indians in Xingu (Iwas part of the Museu do ndio) andsince then, I have been watching theevolution of your country. Myperception is that the potential isabsolutely incredible.

The key element for a culture to besuccessful in the future is whether theywill have a contribution to make to thePlanet. Thats it: what is yourcontribution?

Like it or not, the only thing that theFrench culture can bring to the rest of

the world is Luxury. This is the onlything they can do: Cartier, Van Cleef,Champagne.

What can Brazilians bring to theworld? A feminine culture, the womans

side and the notion of mulherguerreira (warrior woman), whichmeans that I am going to work hardevery day to improve the life conditionof my family; I know that life is difficult,I know that I dont have all the moneythat I need, but I dont give up, I work alittle bit more every day. So thispersistence combined with a certainrealism and optimism at the same time;

paired with this consistency of hardwork, in improving, this is somethingvery strong.

I am completely convinced that globalleaders in the future are going to bewomen and we need to start thinkinglike a woman. I am doing some workright now on high education around theworld and in most of the businessschools there are no classes on how tothink like a woman. Big mistake! Why?Because we only think like a man andwe dont understand that women thinkdifferently. What is the big difference?This is how men make a definition: notthis, cut itoff; not this, cutitoff. Eliminate,eliminate and that is it.Now we have adefinition. That is hard data; we havedone work around the world to find outabout this.

Yet, women make definitions byinclusion: this is it also; and this is it also;and this is it also And what is verydifficult for men to accept is that itnever finishes, it is never done. You cankeep adding and adding.

Brazil is a very feminine culture and

we can learn about this inclusivedimension. I remember I had a feijoadawith you one day, and one thing that Ilearned about feijoada is that you can

The key element for a

culture to be successful in

the future is whether they will

have a contribution to make

to the Planet. (...) What can

Brazilians bring to the world?

A feminine culture, the

womans side and the notion

of mulher guerreira (warrior

woman).

I am completely convinced that

global leaders in the future are

going to be women and we need

to start thinking like a woman.


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always add some water if there are more people coming andthey are always welcome. It is not exclusive, it is inclusive. Thesame is true concerning peoples race. I remember thisbeautiful woman: she was part Japanese, part African, partSwiss, she had all this mix and wow, the result was fantastic!

Right now in Europe there is a very big danger: we seeracism and fascism coming back. This is not part of theBrazilian mindset; it is more inclusive, more open. I think it isfine that you have a woman leader, and even Lula was morefeminine.

So that is one of the things that I find very good in theBrazilian culture; this inclusiveness is the contribution thatBrazil can bring to the world.

Fernando Luzio. You mentioned your worry about theEurope. As an Archetypologist, how can Americans andEuropeans explore the power of their Culture Codes in orderto overcome the crisis and turnaround?

Dr. Rapaille. The crisis that we have today is a result ofthe dominance of the Cortex. Americans have been verygood for many years and centuries because we are not tooCortex. The clich is that America has a bias for action, solets do it you dont know what you are going to do, but youdo it.

Europeans are the opposite, they want to think, toorganize, so the result is more laws, regulation, slowing downthe process. And the problem with the new administration ofObama in America is that they are very much European inthe way of thinking, so they create more laws, moreregulations, they slow down the process, they want to create abig government. They should look at France where 65% ofthe budget is the government. Everybody is leaving there,nobody wants to create anymore.

France has a deficit of 100 billion Euros, when the Germanmake 200 billion surpluses. What is the big differencebetween the two? Well, the French dudes dont want to work;they want the state to take care of everything. The idea to put

Germans and Greeks in same box is absurd. It is never goingto work; it is like trying to give the same rules to giraffes andelephants. No way!

So Europeans have to understand and accept that thesecultures are different and before they become one big culture which is going to take centuries they have to move toanother structure, a structure which respects culturaldifferences. The British understand that very well, theyalways felt that they were different. They still have the pound,not the euro.

And for me a good example is Switzerland. Switzerland is agreat country, they are very successful. They have 4 officiallanguages and every subculture is respected. So you cancreate something like that, of course it is possible.

The problem with America is more serious, because it isnot an issue between Republicans and Democrats. Theproblem is the politicians and not if they are Democrats orRepublicans. The big government that we have was createdby Republicans. The crazy politicians, in order to bereelected have to spend, spend, spend and so on. So that is abig issue and if it keeps going like that we are going tobecome like France. We have already one of the biggestdeficits in the world and we are going to have moreregulations.

So what Americans and Europeans should do? Theyshould try to copy countries that are successful, what we callbest practices in government. We do that in manufacturing,

why dont we do that in governments?And the number one example for me is Singapore. I wrotean article and said: Monsieur Hollande (the new FrenchPresident) should work as an interne in Singapore to learnfrom these guys over there.. Singapores model is unique and

very successful. They have 2% unemployment, Spain has25%! So obviously, Spain should learn something from them.

Why are they so successful? Because it has Reptilianprinciples. First of all they have no gas, no oil, no land, nonatural resources, they have nothing. They are not like thosespoiled little Arabian countries which live on royalties. Theyhave nothing. So what was the first thing they did? In 1965,when Malaysia rejected Singapore, Lee Kuan Yew, the leaderat that time said Ok guys, we have no choice. We have to bebetter than the others because we have no resources, we are

poor, we have to be the best..And what is the first thing we need to do? Clean: that is a

Reptilian priority. Mothers know that you have to be clean,the food has to be clean, the children. So we want the houseto be clean, the street to be clean, we want the food to beclean, you need to be clean, your clothes have to be clean.Clean, clean and that creates a mindset, a first imprint aboutdiscipline, demand and exigencies. The first thing that LeeKuan Yew imprinted in peoples minds he did not have towrite it down. It is duties and one of the biggest polemics inAmerican culture is that criminals have more rights thanvictims.

Then the second one was: you have to work hard. This is

very Chinese, a Confucius dimension that you have to workand you have to learn. Learn, learn, learn, and never stoplearning. And then there is this notion of respect: respectyour family, respect your father.

Right now there is more average income in Singapore,something like 70.000 dollars a year. They have moremillionaires over there than anywhere else in the world. With5 million people and they make 55 billion surplus betweenimport and export 1/4 of what Germans do with 80million people. Can you imagine that?

There is no corruption, and do you know why? Because allcivil servants make an average of 1 million dollars a year. So,when you are a Director of an Agency you dont need moremoney, you already have 1 million dollars! So it is amazing.

And because they pay civil servants very well they have thebest people wanting to become civil servants, again it is avirtuous cycle.

And it is a very safe place. I have been there many timesand women can walk safely at night in the street. There is nograffiti because you go to jail.

Ive done work in Singapore very much and when Iveasked young people in Singapore: Would they livesomewhere else? They said: No. Id rather be in Singapore,it is a lot better here. So young people love it, they appre-ciate the structure, the security, the safety, transportation isalmost free, the subway is very nice and beautiful and safe.

My next book is called The Global Code and The Global

Mind and I say that these global leaders should look at thebest practices around the world. And even if I criticize theFrench all the time, French medicine is a lot better thanAmerican medicine, on average.

They get better results twice as much, for 1/3 of the priceper person than they do in America. America is in an estateof waste, an incredible waste. So they should learn again:what are the French doing better than Americans in terms ofmedicine?

FernandoLuzio. You know about my passion for Japan,and for me something very provocative is what the countryhas been facing.

The Japanese economy experienced a huge expansion after

the Second World War, up until the 90s, leading sometechnology innovations and some of the modernmanagement practices, such as the Lean Manufacturing fromToyota, Total Quality Management, Just in Time, and others.

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Nowadays, the country has beenfacing trouble in overcoming thedisturbing creativity and innovationblackout, adapting the business modelof their large companies, and losingspace for their Asiatic neighbors. EvenToyota has recently experienced atraumatic recall that questioned theirlegacy as the Quality icon.

The Japanese movie industry lostspace in the recent years for the up andcoming Korean and Chineses films.

How can we help Japanese companiesto readapt and turnaround in order torecover their relevant role in the globalscenario?

Dr. Rapaille. That is why Japanneeds Brazil, because the JapaneseCode is almost your opposite.

Ive been studying in Japan since 1964 when I went to Japan for the firsttime. I had a company there for a while

and have done a lot of work in Japan.Japanese culture is fascinating, it is oneof the most interesting cultures for meto study and decode. But on the otherhand, their very culture presents aproblem to the Japanese.

And what is the problem? TheKoreans that have been in Japan forthree generations are still Korean, thereis no integration.Japanese Japanaise,it is not like the feijoada where you mixthings. The Japanese mind is about thepurity of the blade, the high density ofthe laser, thats why they are so good

when it comes to quality, and intensity they are intense. That is what they want.For long time they have been betterthan everybody else because of that.Absolutely! But at a certain time this

high-density is just so selfish and so self-centered, that they forget about the restof the planet.

So, Japanese companies have to facedifferent challenges today. As you knowKorea has been occupied by theJapanese for more than 30 years. Theywere forced to think Japanese, to speakJapanese, to have Japanese names, andthen, when in 1945 the Japanese left,Koreans went back to being Korean.But they have integrated all the goodthings such as quality and density. Theyare fantastic; they are Italian andJapanese at the same time. They havethe passion and the excitement of theItalian and they have the intensity ofthe Japanese. The Japanese are notItalian at all; they have never integratedthe Italian dimension.

So, Japanese companies are stillimperialistic in their minds. They wantto impose Japan. They cant mix with

the other cultures. So, I see a betterfuture for Brazil than for Japan,unfortunately.

Then, aging population is another bigissue. They have a healthy lifestyle inJapan so they live forever, they neverdie, but you have to feed them one wayor another, so you have this work forcein Japan that is shrinking and the agingpopulation growing.

There are a lot of similarities betweenJapan and Germany: same unconsciousstructure. When the Japanese needed tohave a bureaucracy, they copied theGerman. Today they have the carindustry in common. They were goodsoldiers, imperialistic soldiers; they were

allies during the war, so there are a lotof similarities.

But the German managed to stayGerman and reinvent themselves. Sothe Japanese again should look at theGermans and copy the model beingused over there, on how the Germansare doing, on how come they aresuccessful there, because this is not offcode with Japan. Both love the systemicapproach, so that is how the Japanesecan grow.

Fernando Luzio. Something that Ifind very interesting is that always at thebeginning of an Archetype Discoveryprocess you start by asking your clientIf I had all the answers, what wouldyour questions be?.

Now I really would like to know If Ihad all the answers, what would yourquestions be? What are the intriguingquestions in your mind nowadays?

Dr. Rapaille. If you had all theanswers, I think my number onequestion would be Where is the globalleader that could be the pilot for thisPlanet?.

And he or she cannot be a politician maybe a king/queen philosopher, awizard, a high priest, something likethat. But there is a need for anotherArchetype to come and to guide.Because right now, we are moving in somany different directions, in partdestroying the Planet, which is bad.So,that will be my dream, to discover this

structure, beyond politics, beyondeconomy, beyond major corporations.Who will be the best pilot?

My next book is called The Global

Code and The Global Mind and I say

that these global leaders should look

at the best practices around the

world. (...) French medicine is a lot

better than American medicine, on

average. They get better results twiceas much, for 1/3 of the price per

person than they do in America.

America is in an estate of waste, an

incredible waste. So they should

learn again: what are the French

doing better than Americans in terms

of medicine?


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Fernando Luzio. To close thisunforgettable interview, if you wouldwrite a letter to our children aboutyour key learning and recommen-dations on how to be a betterindividual and professional, whatwould be your core legacy?

Dr. Rapaille. My mother was avery special woman and she always

told me one simple message that Iwould like to transmit to my 2 sons.I was kind of crazy when I was

young I am still crazy today, but adifferent crazy: one day while I wasplaying music, I said I want tobecome a musician; another day Iwould be painting, and I would say Iwant to become a painter; I wantedto cure children; I want to become adoctor, and my mother always toldme Whatever you decide to do, you aregoing to succeed..

For me that was one of the bestmessages anybody could tell me,specially my mother, because I thoughtWow! Maybe she is right, maybe I amgoing to do that and I am going tosucceed..

So I would like my children to havethis self-confidence. Dont try to dowhat Iwant you to do.Dont try to bewhat I want you to be. Dont want tobecome what anybody else wants you tobe, but do whatever you want to do andyou are going to succeed. I think thatthe wrong idea is to say Oh, I want my

son to be a doctor or an engine-er..Forget it! Let them do whatever theywant to do.

So, this is the best legacy that you cangive your children Whatever you aregoing to do, you are going to besuccessful in, just trust yourself and dothe best you can.

Fernando Luzio. Your ArchetypeDiscovery legacy is fascinating and veryon code with the historical moment thatwe are experiencing: globalization,when the world must learn to recognize,

respect and learn how to deal with thedifferences.Your company has helped to educate

large organizations around the world onhow to understand and value thedifferences and to use them in theirfavor, not against them.

And all of us, from Luzio StrategyConsulting are deeply honored andproud of being part of the ADWs fami-ly and sharing its mission. Dr. Rapaille,thank you very much for your interview.

Dr. Rapaille. It was my pleasure,

thank you.

NOVOS INTRPRETES PROGRAM

Created and Directed by: Fernando Luzioand Ren Guedes

Interviewer: Fernando Luzio

Editorial Supervision: Patrcia Luzio

Edited and Photographed by: RobsonCrociati and Henrique Pinto

Production: Luzio Strategy Consulting

LUZIO STRATEGY CONSULTING

Website: www.luzio.com.br /

E-mail: [email protected]

Tel: +55 (11) 3045-5651

Rua Afonso Braz, 473 - cj. 43

Vila Nova Conceio - So Paulo - SP

04511-011 Brazil

Dr. Rapailleonthe left; FernandoLuzioon the right

The video and audio of this inter-view are available on our website

www.luzio.com.br and iTunesStore A PDF of this interview is also

available in Portuguese

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