chic eder deposition in eder v. weberman
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SUPREME COURT OF THE STATE OF NE\ 1 YOP.K
COUNTY OF NEW YORK
---------- ---------- --- ----------------x
CHIC EDER
P l a i n t i f f
-a ga i n s t -
ALAN J . NEBERMAN a /k / a A. J .
WEBERM.l\N, WILLIAM J . RYAN
MARIANNE PARTRIDGE RUPER.T
MURDOCH and THE VILLAGE VOICE
INC.
Defendants .
-------------- -- --- - -- - --------- - - -----x
Deposi t ion o f p l a i n t i f f CHIC EDER t aken
by def e nd qn t ALAN J WEI3ERl1AN pursu a n t to no t i ce
dated Feb r uary 2 1979 a t the of f i ces o f David
S. Michae l s Esq . 342 Madi son Avenue New Yo rk
N. Y. 10017 on February 16 1 979 a t 2:00 p .m.
before Shary n L. Bamb e r a Shorthand Repo r t e r
and No fa r y Publ ic o f the Sta te o f Ne w Yo rk .
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APPEARANCES:
Messrs . ROSENSTEIN & KAHN
Attorneys for p l a i n t i f f ,225 Broadway
New York N. Y. 1000 7
BY: MAPC KAHN ESQ .
Of Counsel
DAVIDS . MICHAELS, ESQ.
2
Attorney for defendant Alan J . Weberman
342 Madison Ave nue
New York , N. Y. 1001 7
ALSO PRESENT:
A . J WEBER.MAN
oOo
IT IS HEREBY STIPU LATED AND AGREED , by and
between the a t to rneys fo r the r espe c t i ve partie s
he re to t h a t a ll r i gh t s provided by the CP LR, in -
e l uding ~ ~ r i g h t to ob jec t to any ques t i o n excep t
as to the form o r to move to s t r i k e any t es timony
a t t h i s depos i t i on , are reserved , a nd in a d d i t i o n
t h e f a i l u r e to o b j e c t to a n y ques t i o n o r to move
to s t r i k e t e s t imony a t t h i s depos i t ion , s ha l l not
be a ba r o r waiver to make s uch mo t i o n a t and i s
rese rved fo r , the t r i a l o f t h i s a c t i o n .
IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED t h a t
t h i s depos i t i on may be sworn to by t he witnes s
B LITZ REPORT IN G C O .
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2 being examined, befo re a Notary Pub l i c o t he r than
3the Notary Publ ic before whom t h i s depos i t ion was
4begun, bu t t, 1e f a i l u r e to do so o r to r e tu r n the
5 or ig ina l of t h i s deposi t ion to counsel s h a l l no t
be deemed waiver o f the r igh t s provided by Rule
7 3116, CPLR, and sha l l be c on t ro l l e d t he reby .
8 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED t h a t
9the f i l i ng and c e r t i f i c a t i o n o f the or ig ina l o f
10t h i s deposi t ion are waived.
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12oOo
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14MR KAHN: Before we begin the depos i t ion
15o f Mr. Eder , I would l i ke the r eco rd to note t i s
16now 10 a f t e r 2 p .m. , and t ha t the a t to rneys for Mr.
17Will iam Ryan, Mr. Ruper t Murdoch and The Vil l age
18Voice have no t appeared t h i s af ternoon.
The record should a l so note they served19
20a no t i ce to take deposi t ion upon or a l examina t ion o f
. 21
Mr. Eder, da ted February 2, which I received Febru-
ary 5 t h and t ha t subsequent ly the a t to rneys for the
22above-named defendants agreed they would be presen t
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in Mr. Michae ls o f f i c e t h i s af t e rnoon on the 16 th
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in order t ha t both deposi t ions could proceed a t the
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2 same t ime and e x p l i c i t l y , so t h a t Mr. Eder , who i s
3 here from o u t o f town would n o t have to be unduly
4 i nconvenienced .
•5 The r eco rd shou ld a l so note t h a t t h i s
6 morning a t 10:30 I r ece i v ed a t e l ephone c a l l from
7 Mr. Slade Metca l f , who i s counse l to the above-
8 named defendan t s who fo r t h e irst t ime adv ised me
9 t h a t because o f t h e p resen ce o f o f f i c e work in h i s
1 o f f i c e he did n o t choose t o a t t end t h i s d e p o s i t i o n .
11 I poin ted out to Mr. Metca l f t h a t my c l i e n t had
12flown i n to New York e s p e c i a l l y fo r t h i s d e p o s i t i o n ,
13 from out o f town and i n f a c t from overseas , and t h a t
14t h i s would work an extreme hardsh ip on Mr. Eder .
15fu r t h e r poin ted out t h a t s i n c e t h i s was Mr. M etca l f s
16n o t i ce o f d e p o s i t i o n , I expected him to be h e re and
17i he p r e f e r r ed n o t to a t t e n d the depos i t i on , we
18would assume he had waived h i s r i g h t s to depose Hr.
19Eder and t h a t we would seek ad d i t i o n a l r e l i e f as
20necessary under the CPLR.
I served a l e t t e r to t h a t e f f e c t on Mr.21
Metca l f t h i s morning a copy o f which I would l i k e
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to pu t i n t o t h i s r eco rd and I would a l so l i k e to p u t
i n t o the record a copy o f my c l i e n t s passpor t .24
Ju s t a n o t a t i o n fo r the record , my c l i e n t5
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2 passpor t
3 THE WITNl.:SS: Showed I a r r i v ed he re
4 from out o f the count ry l a s t nir ,ht a t 7:20.
•5 MR . KAHN : At JFK Airpor t .
6 Aeain, exp l i c i t l y fo r the purpose
7 o f a t t end ing t h i s depos i t i on .
8 Having sa id t ha t , we are prepared to
9 go fo r th with Mr . e ~ s depos i t i on no t i ced by
10Michaels , on beha l f o f h i s c l e n t , A. J . Weberman .
11 C H I C E D E R, p l a i n t i f f , ca l l ed as a witn es s
12by the defendant Alan J . Weberman, be ing f i r s t
3duly sworn by the Notary Publ ic Sharyn L. Bamber ,
14t e s t i f i e d as fo l lows:
15EXAMINATION Y MR . MICHAELS:
16Q Would you s t a t e your f u l l l ega l name , please?
17A My l ega l name, as f a r as the cour t s , Chic
18Ede r .
19Q What i s the name appear i ng o n yo ur b i r t h
20c e r t i f i ca t e?
MR . KAHN : Off the record .21
Di s cuss ion o f f the r eco rd .
22MR KAHN: I am goine to objec t
23
because t i s i r r e l evan t fo r any purpose th a t24
25per t a ins to t h i s examinat ion .
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1 Eder
2 MR MICHAELS: Asking h is name?
3THE WITNESS: You a re asking t he name
4t h a t appears on my b i r t h c e r t i f i c a t e ? I r e fuse to
•5 answer t h a t ques t ion .
6 MR KAHN: I f you want to seek an order
7 d i r e c t i n g him to answer t h a t you can.
8 BY MR MICHAELS:
9Q What i s your l ega l name?
1A Chic Eder.
11Q Have you ever used any o ther name?
12A I have used numerous o ther names.
13Q What names?
14A I p re fe r not to answer t ha t ques t ion .
15MR KAHN: Again I ob jec t to t h a t as
16not being r e l e v a n t to the i n s t an t proceed ing . I
d i r e c t him not to answer t h a t ques t ion .17
A I would l i ke to s t a t e for the· · record t h a t I am18
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known only by t h a t name a t t h i s p o in t in t ime.
Q I Ia\re you v r been kno\vn to any gov rnm nt
2
agencies under any o ther names?21
A Poss ib ly .
22Q What names?
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A It s i r r e l e v a n t to t h i s case and I r e fu se to
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answer it.
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Eder 7
2MR MICHAELS: Off the record .
3(Discussion o f f the record . )
4MR MICHAELS: On the record .
•5 Q Do you concede you have, in. the course o f your
6 l i f e , used var ious o ther names, o ther than the one you a re
7 now t e l l i n g us i s your name?
8 A I do, but I vant to add to t ha t t h a t I have
9never appeared before any cot i r t , body o r governmental
1agency in t h i s decade , t he seven t i e s , by any o ther name.
11 Q Did you ever appear be fore a cour t , body o r
12governmental agency a t any t ime under ano ther name?
13A Not in t h i s decade.
14Yes, in the s i x t i e s o r pr i o r , I have .
15Q How many t imes?
A I have been in cour t? I never appeared be fore16
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a grand j u ry a t any t ime anywhere to t e s t i f y be fore a grand
18j u ry .
Q The ques t ion , i you r e c a l l , i s whether you19
a t any t ime, whether pr io r to the seven t ies o r durincr the20
• 21
seven t i e s , appeared be fore any cour t , grand j u ry , o r any
governmenta l agency under any o ther name?
22MR RAHN: I i n s t r u c t him not to answer
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t ha t .
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A I d o n t remember. I am s t a t i ng c a t e g o r i c a l l y
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1Eder · 8
2 t ha t I have not appeared in t h i s decade the se v e n t i e s ,
3 be fore any one under any o th e r name excep t Eder.
4I w i l l make one concess ion here t ha t I used
\
· 5 the name Phi l ip .
6 Q Is t h a t your name?
7 A Yes t h a t i s my name.
8 Q Is it the name t h a t you were born with?
9A No it i s not the name I was born with .
1Q Again what i s the name you were horn with?
MP KAHN: Here aga in , I am going to11
12ob jec t to t h a t as being i r r e l e v a n t to the p roceed ing .
13Q Where and when were you born?
14A In New York City in 1931.
15Q On what date?
A I d o n t t h ink I want to g ive him t h a t in fo rma-16
t i on .17
MR KAHN: Again I o b jec t to t he18
19re levancy as to t he s p e c i f i c date o f h i s b i r t h . It
20has nothing to do with any of the i s sues r a i s e d in
the compaint o r any conce ivab le defense to t he i s sues
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ra i sed in the compla in t .
22Q Mr. Eder isn t it t r u e you have prov ided in -
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format ion to d i f fe ren t government agencies under d i f f e r e n t
24
names
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1 Eder
2 HR KAHN: I ob jec t to the ques t ion .
3HP MI CHAE LS : t i s c e r t a in ly r e l e va n t .
4MR KAHN: t i s too broadly based fo r - -
•5 Q Have you ever given in fo rmat ion to a government
6 agency under any o ther names o ther than Chic Eder?
7MR KAHN: t presumes a conc lus ion .
8MR HICHAELS: I am asking whether in
9fac t I am no t conclud ing t ha t . I am asking whether
10it occurred whether you have given in fo rmat ion to
11government agencies under any o ther name?
12A Not in the seven t i e s .
13Q P r i o r to t ha t?
A Poss ib ly . I have been a r r e s t e d on numerous ]
15occasions and in cour t on numerous occas ions . I f t h a t b e -
16ing the case then I have t e s t i f i e d in my own cases and I
17have given in fo rmat ion to t he government and it may have
18been under ano ther name.
19Look what I am t r y i n g to ge t across to you
20
Nr. Michaels i s s imply t he most you cou ld hope to go back
• 21
on t h i s i s t en years with me because beyond t en y ea r s I
am not going to tell you any th ing un less the cour t orde rs
22me to t e l l you t h a t . So now we know exac t ly what we a re
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dea l ing wi th here .
24
MR MICHAELS: Off the record .
25
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Eder 10
2 Discussion o f f the record . )
3MP . MICHAELS: Back on the r ecord .
4 Q During the 1970 s , have you ever given in -
• 5 format ion to any governmental law enforcement agency o r
6 prosecu to r i a l agencies under the name o f P h i l i p Eder o r
7 chic Eder?
8 MR KAHN: I ask you to c l a r i f y t h a t .
9Do you mean during the t ime o f a tri l in which he
10was a witness in a t r i a l ?
11MR
MICHAELS: No. I mean dur ing t he
12course o f i nve s t i ga t ion , indic tment proceed ing ,
13t r i a l o r any mat te r r e l a t e d to any law enforcement
14agency.
15MR KAHN: I f ind the ques t ion objection...:
16ab le because of the breadth and l ack o f s p e c i f i c i t y .
17I f you spec i fy a s pe c i f i c in s tance o r agency, I w i l l
18not ob jec t to h i s answering.
19Q Did you ever g ive in fo rmat ion under t he name
20of Phi l ip Eder o r Chic Eder o r any o ther name to any agency• 21o r rep resen ta t ive o f the Drug Enforcement Admin is t ra t ion o r
predecessor agencies?
22A Yes, I have . Yes, I have bu t it never had
23
any th ing to do with any i n d iv id u a l s ; it only had to do wi th -
24
MR KAHN: Off the record .
25
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Eder 11
2Discuss ion o f f the record . )
3MR KAHN: Back on the record .
4 A t only has to do with t e chno log ica l - - d i s -
· 5 cuss ion o f t e chno log ica l ope ra t ions o f t h e i r computer
6 system.
7 Q Let me go back a little b i t and ask you a
8 little more by way o f background.
9 Where were you educated?
1A Folsom Prison, Cal i fo rn ia . I gradua ted as
11va led ic to r i an o f my c l a s s in 1966, I be l i eve .
12Q Did you have any educa t ion pr io r to t h a t ?
13A Not to speak of .
14Q Where did you grow up?
15A New York.
16Q Did you have any educa t ion subsequen t to t ha t?
A Yes.17
18Q Could you spec i fy , piease?
19A Ventura College, Stony Brook Univer s i ty .
20Q You r e g i s t e r e d as a s tuden t a t both i n s t i t u -
•
21t i ons you named?
A No. I was a s tuden t a t Stony Brook Unive rs i ty
22bu t was no t r e g i s t e r e d . I may have been , bu t I d o n t t h ink
3
so . I w as n t reg i s t e red fo rmal ly , but I may show up on24
the records .25
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1 Eder
2 Q Mr. Eder, i s it your p o s i t i o n in t h i s case
3 your repu ta t ion as a c r imina l has been defamed?
4 A No. As an out law.
•5 Q What do you mean by tha t?
A As someone who l i v e s o u t s i d e o f the law.
7 Q As someone ' ho v i o l a t e s t he law?
8 A Poss ib ly as someone who v io l a t e s the l aw.
9 Q What do you c la im your r e p u t a t i o n i s as an
10 out law, as you c a l l i t ?
11 A To quote Bob Dylan, , . To l i ve out s ide the law,
12 you must be hones t . To p u t ano ther person in a p r i s o n
13 c e l l in your place i s di shones t , and my s ta tement i s I
14 have a t no t ime put ano ther person , by t r a d i n g mysel f , i n t o
15 a pr i son c e l l .
16Q Your c la im h ere i s it i s your r ep u t a t i o n as
17an hones t out law which has been defamed?
18A That i s c o r re c t .
19MR KAHN: Off the record .
20(Discuss ion o f f the record . )
• 21MR KAHN: Back on the record .
22
A t has a l so h u r t my bus iness r ep u t a t i o n in t he
23l eg i t ima te b u s i n es s es which I am invo lved in a t the presen t
t ime.24
25Q Is t h a t your s ta tement o r have you been adv ised
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Eder
2 Q How many t imes?
3 A At l e a s t th ree o r four; probably more. I was
4 convicted o f possess ion of mari juana in 19 - - I be l i eve
5 1959. That was in Federal Court in Miami.
6 I was convic ted o f possess ion of mar i juana ,
7 Sta te Court , in San Franc isco , Cal i fo rn ia , in I be l i eve
8 1964, and I went to prison .
9 I was again a r res ted for possess ion o f o r con-
1v ic ted of possess ion o f mari juana and possess ion o f ~ No,
11 j u s t possess ion o f mari juana in 1968.
12In 70 o r 71 I was convic ted o f possess ion o f
3mari juana and possess ion o f f i rea rm, leading from the d i s -
14turbances in I s l a Vis ta , Cal i fo rn ia , which i s in Santa
15Barbara, Cal i fo rn ia .
16Q In fac t , d i d n t t ha t l a s t i nc iden t you t o l d us
17about involve the burning o f the Bank o f America?
18A t had to do with - - t had to do with the
19inc iden ts t h a t took place around the burning of the Bank
20o f America.
•
21Q Here you one of the i nd iv idua l s convic ted?
A No, I was never convic ted for burn ing the
22Bank o f America.
23
Q But ra the r for what?24
A Possess ion o f a f i rea rm.25
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•
Eder
2 Q As a fe lony?
3 A It s a fe lony . p t o f ive years in the Sta te
4 o f C a l i f o r n i a .
5 Q I s t h a t the e n t i r e r eco rd you have t o l d us
6 about now?
7
8
9
10
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12
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2
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A No I have only got t en up to the ea r ly 197D s .
Q Please proceed .
A I am presen t ly on ap p ea l on a co n v i c t i o n o f
possess ion o f mari juana in t he S t a t e o f Flor ida .
Q As a fe lony?
A As a fe lony .
Q Is t h a t the comple te record? Have you now
t o l d us o f a l l o f your a r r e s t s and conv ic t ions?
A I d o n t know if I have l i s t e d a l l o f t h e
a r r e s t s , s ince I d o n t have my rap s h ee t he re . I t h i n k it
i s s u f f i c i e n t fo r your purposes .
Q Have you t o l d us about a l l o f your conv ic t ions?
A Ny conv ic t ions?
Q Yes.
A Let me t h ink about it a minute . I have been
conv ic ted o f escape from p r i s o n .
Q When?
A December 8 1974.
Q Where?
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Eder
2 A Pardon me, mistake. I escaped
3 1972 and l e f t a note t e l l i n g them what day ,I would be back ,
4 and the day was May 8, 1972 and I re tu rned on t h a t da te
5 and was subsequent ly t r i e d fo r escape and conv ic ted o f
6 escape.
7 Q Have you now t o ld us about a l l o f t he conv ic -
8 t ions?
9 A Let me t h ink about t fo r a minute .
1 I wi l l r e i t e r a t e : The or ig ina l conv ic t ion ,
11 which I be l ieve t he record was expunged, was posse ss ion
12o f mari juana, th i r te .en o r four teen .
13Next, Tire Act, which I d o n t th ink appears
14on any record , in 1950. Then I was conv ic ted - - Let me
15make t ha t complete ly c l e r ~ I am not t a lk ing o f a r r e s t s .
16I am t a l k in g about those t h ings I was conv ic ted o f - - con-
17v ic ted o f mari juana in a f edera l cour t in Miami in 1959.
18Next , possess ion o f mari juana and posse ss ion
19of s to len proper ty , ano ther charge , in 1964 in San Franc i sco
2Cal i fo rn ia .
Next, 1968, I was a r r e s t e d in Ventura ,21
C a l i fo rn i a and conv ic ted o f another mari juana possess ion .
22There were o ther a r r e s t s involved around t h a t
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pe r iod ; none o f which r e su l t e d in conv ic t ion .
24
The nex t one was in 71 - - 70 o r 7 1 . To be25
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2 c l e a r o n t ha t , fo r pos s es s ion o f mari juana
3 o f a f i r e bomb . That i s what I was convic ted o f in
4 I s l a Vis ta , Cal i fo rn ia .
5 The next convic t ion was Miami Flor ida , about
6 a year and a ha l f ago on a plea o f gui l t y to possess ion
7 o f mari juana .
8 And I have not been convic ted o f anyth ing s ince
9 t ha t case i s on appea l .
10 Q ivha t pr ison d id you escape from?
A Cal i fo rn ia Sta t e .
12 Q Tel l us pl ease approximate ly how much
13 mari juana was involved as to the conv ic t ion - -
4 A Seven j o in t s . Seven mari juana c i g a re t t e s .
5Q Which case a re you r e f e r r ing to?
A When I was a k id .
17Q Next?
18A In Cal i fo rn ia - - The next one was Mi a mi. I
9th ink I would be sa fe in saying it was l e s s than a quar te r
20o f an o unce . I th ink it wa s some th ing l i ke e igh t o r te n
2g rams o r something l i ke t ha t .
Q Go on.22
23
A The next convic t ion wa s for a very - - aga in a
very smal l amount o f mari juana ; ce r t a i n l y no t any g rand24
sca l e .25
I d o n t remember how much . t wasn t e nough to
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r e a l l y t a l k about it
Q Under an ounce?
A I be l ieve so , bu t I m no t su re on t h a t one.
Q Under a pound?
A Here we a re dea l ing I be l ieve so . Here we
7 are dea l ing wi th a case in 1964 in San Franc isco .
8 In the 1968 case , I th ink the re was a pound
9 involved in t ha t , in the 1968 case .
10In the case in Santa Barbara , which took place
in 70 or 71 , we are t a lk ing about a j o i n t o r maybe two
12j o i n t s . That was a l l t h a t was invo lved in t h a t one.
13I be l ieve the one in iami was 5,300 pounds.
Q Any others?
5A Any o ther convic t ions? None.
6Q \Vhat l. laS t he s t o l e n proper ty?
17A Some wigs .
8Q You have t o l d us you have done var ious t ime
9in jail Would you t e l l us , p lease , t ak ing each conv ic t ion
20t h a t r e su l t e d n a j a i l sentence , t e l l m what t he sen tence
was?21
A As a k id , I went to the re formatory . The
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second convic t ion was proba t ion . The t h i r d conv ic t ion ,
23
which took place n 1959, r e su l t e d in my going to , f i r s t ,24
to t he United Sta tes Publ ic Heal th Serv ice Hospi ta l in25
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......Y2 Lexington Kentucky a nd then to the United St a t e s Peni t e n -
3 t i a ry in At l an t a , Georgia .
4 Q Would you go on p lea se?
e5 A 1964 t he conv i c t i o n in San Franc isco ,
6 Cal i fo rn ia r e su l t e d i n , 1964 to 1 968 I was in Folsom
7 Prison, Ca l i f o r n i a s maximum cus tody p r i so n .
8 The 1968 conv iction - - t h a t may have been 6 8 ,
9 69 . It might have been 6 9 . In fac t I be l i eve t h a t wa s
10a 19 69 conv ic t ion , a nd I went to t he C al i f o r n i a Rehab i l i t a -
11 t ion Center in Corona C a l i f orn i a .
12In the 1970 1971 conv i c t i o n , I wa s s e n t t o
13Chino Cal i fo rn ia , San Quent i n , So ledad , Folsom CMC
14Tehachap i San Quent in Folsom CMC San Quen t i n , Folsom
15CMC. Tha t was my i t in e r a ry .
16Q Is t h a t i t ?
17A Yes t h a t s it.
18Q Yo u h ave spen t no o th e r t ime in j a i l o t h e r
19t h a n what you t o ld us?
20A I have been in a l o t o f j a i l s . We a re t a l k i n g
21abou t my conv i c t i ons .
Q Tel l me abou t o the r j a i l s yo u have been i n .
22A I c a n t count th em.
23
Q App r oximate ly how many?24
25A Fi f ty . I have been in f i f t y j a ils.
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2 Q Have you been a heroin addic t?
3 A Most d e f i n i t e l y , fo r e leven years .
4 Q Have you spent more than ha l f your l i f e in j a i l ?
5 A I have spent approximate ly 18 years in j a i l and
6 I am 48.
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Q Have you ever t o l d anybody you spent h a l f your
l i f e in j a i l s ?
A It s very pos s ib l e .
MR KAHN Object ion as to form. You
have to be more spec i f i c as to when and who.
Q Did you v r t e l l Mr. Alber t Goldman you have
spent ha l f your l i f e in j a i l ?
A It s poss ib le , s ince when I f i r s t met Alber t
Goldman I would have spent h a l f my l i f e in j a i l .
Q Going to the - - It was 5 300 pounds
A I haven t been in pr i son fo r tha t .
Q Do you know why?
A The case i s on appeal .
Q I s t he re a sentence t h a t has been passed?
A Three year s .
Q What cour t does t h a t der ive from?
A Miami.
Q Your a l l eged repu ta t ion as an hones t outlaw
was gained therefore in what kind o f ente rpr i ses , what kind
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2 o f ac t i v i t i e s?
3 A My ·1i fe s ty l e .
4 Q Does your l i f e s ty l e involve vio la t ing any
•5 pa r t i c u l a r law?
6 A Cer ta in ly .
7 Q Which?
8 MR KAHN: I objec t to tha t quest ion .
9 MR MICHAELS: The man claims h i s r e p u t a -
1 t i on i s defamed. I asked about what his background
11 i s with regard to t h a t repu ta t ion .
12 MR KAHN: You are asking him to i den t i fy
13 a spec i f ic l ega l s t a tu t e .
14THE WITNESS: Yes I can i den t i fy the
15s t a t u t e as the mari juana l aws. I have broken a l l
16the mari juana laws.
17Q You have broken the mari juana sa le law repea ted -
18l y , have you not?
19A I most ce r t a i n l y have. I used to s e l l it to
20your c l i en t .
21Q You say you s e l l it You are speaking in the
22presen t t ense?
A No you d i d n t ask me t h a t . You asked me if
23
I sold mari juana . I so ld mari juana.24
Q De you presen t ly?25
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2 A No I d o n t have any.
3Q When did you most r ecen t l y do so?
4 A S e l l mari juana?
•5 Q Yes .
6 A I t h in k t h a t s i r r e l e v a n t .
7MR KAHN: I o b j e c t to t h a t .
8 A I f you want to ask me when I l a s t s o l d mar i juana
9to your c l i e n t , I would be happy to answer t h a t .
1Q Thank you fo r your s o l i c i t o u s concern .
11Are you t e l l i n g us t h a t your repu ta t ion as an
12hones t out law was d e r i v ed from t he mari juana bus iness?
13A P ar t o f it was.
14Q \·/hat was the o ther p a r t ?
A15
The out law lif s t y l e .
Q What does t h a t out law l i f e s t y l e invo lve? What16
17do you mean?
A How you l i v e your lif as an out law: Do you18
do bus iness in a c o r r e c t manner a re you hones t in y o u r19
2p re s e n t dea l ings with o ther out laws and othe r peop le .
T2 Q With r eg a rd to the cases t h a t you have t o l d us
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about t h a t invo lved e i t h e r your a r r e s t o r your conv ic t ion
22A Excuse me I want to c l a r i f y t h a t . I am n o t
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s t a t i ng on t h i s r eco rd t h a t what I t o l d you about my a r -
24
r e s t s i s the sum t o t a l o f my a r r e s t s . L e t s make t h a t very
25
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1 Eder 25
2 c lea r . I d o n t want anybody to come back and t e l l me I
3 l i ed to you. I am j u s t deal ing with my conv ic t ions . I
4 can remember the conv ic t ions ; I c a n t poss ib ly remember
•the number o f a r r e s t s . I have been a r res t ed ten t imes
6 in one week.
7 Q Could the number o f a r re s t s be poss ib ly over
s a hundred?
9 A The number o f a r re s t s are a l l on the rap shee t
10 and sometime.between now and the t ime we go to c our t , t h a t
11 rap shee t wi l l appear .
12Q In the course o f any of the a r re s t s o r the
13 prosecut ions r e s u l t i ng from those a r r e s t s , whether o r no t
14 they led to conv ic t ions , did you ever give informat ion to
15any government i nve s t i ga t ive or p rosecu to r i a l agency?
16MR KAHN: I objec t to t ha t ques t ion again
17on the grounds o f the breadth and I ask you to be
18more s pe c i f i c about what you were t a lk ing and ·when.
19MR MICHAELS: Off the record .
20Discussion of f the record . )
MR MICHAELS: Back on the record .
•21
Q Mr. Eder , have you ever given informat ion , in
22the course o f any cr imina l i nve s t i ga t ion or p rosecu t ion ,
23
to the United Sta tes Customs Service?24
A At no t ime .25
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2 Q To the United Sta tes Coast Guard?
3 A At no t ime.
4 Q To the United Sta tes Drug Enforcement Adminis-
5 t r a t i on or i t s predecessors?
6 A Only to the United Sta tes Drug Enforcement
7 Adminis t ra t ion and I s t a t e d pr i o r to t ha t what t h a t i n -
8 formation was. That informat ion was dea l ing wi th a l eak
9 they had i n . t h e i r computer. There was a method o f gain ing
10access to informat ion coming out o f t h e i r computers and I
11 plugged t ha t l eak fo r them.
12Wait a minute I want to f in i sh s t a t ing t h a t
13 I have an unders tanding with government agencies I wi°ll a t
14no t ime be asked ques t ions t ha t may l ead to an a r r e s t o r
15convic t ion .
16Q Have you ever given informat ion to the FBI?
17A Oh yes def i n i t e l y .
18Q ow many t imes?
19A Once.
2Q Under what circumstances?
A I made a dea l with the United Sta tes Government• 21
Federa l Bureau of Inves t iga t ion to asce r ta in whether o r not
22t he i r te lephones were in f a c t capable o f be ing t apped. I
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then tapped t h e i r t e lephones and so ld them t ha t i n fo rma t ion
24
in order to ge t myself and o ther people out o f problems with25
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2 the United Sta tes Government.
3 Q Did you ever give the informat ion to any United
4 Sta tes a t to rney a s s i s t a n t United Sta tes a t to rney o r as -
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s i s t a n t d i s t r i c t at torney?
MR KAHN: I objec t to the format ion o f
the quest ion . Specify some def inable t ime per iod o r
l oca l i t y t h a t he can r e fe r t o .
Q Did you ever give informat ion to any a s s i s t a n t
d i s t r i c t a t to rney in the Sta te o f New York o r in t he Sta t e
o f Florida?
A About what?
Q About any cr iminal i nves t iga t ion o r cour t p ro -
14 ceedings .
15A Criminal or cour t proceedings?
16MR KAHN: Again I ob jec t as to t he form.
17Are you r e fe r r i ng to an i nves t iga t ion o r cour t p ro -
18ceeding with re spec t to Mr. Eder o r an i nve s t i ga t ion
19or cour t proceeding wi th respec t to any o ther person?
20Q I wil l ask both . With r e sp e c t to your s e l f
21with respec t to an i nve s t i ga t ion o r cour t proceeding con-
cern ing yourse l f as a defendant o r prospect ive defendant
22did you ever g ive informat ion to an a s s i s t a n t U.S. a t to rney
23
o r an a s s i s t a n t d i s t r i c t a t to rney in New York Flor ida o r24
Cali forn ia?25
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A Yes.
Q How many t imes?
;;;)l ?A Well , I had a case up here and I had cases
down in F lo r ida and I had cases in C al i f o r n i a . Since I
was appear ing propr ia p e r sona, in many cases I r ep resen ted
mysel f and I had reason to come in con tac t with a s s i s t a n t
d i s t r i c t a t t o rn e y s .
Q With rega rd to any cr imina l i n v e s t iga t i o n o r
prosecut ion o f any o ther pe rsons , have you eve r given any
informat ion to any inves t i g a t i ve agency o r p ro se c u t o r i a l
agency in any o f those th r e e s t a t e s?
A Let me be very c l e a r about t h i s : With rega rd
to any informa t i o n o r any tes t imony t h a t might l ead to an
a r re s t o r conv ic t ion o f any human be i ng , I have no t given
a ny in fo rmat ion to any agency o r a.nyone per iod . That wi l l
so lve t h a t .
Now, I may have g i ven i n fo rmat i on bu t I was
always very c a re fu l to make t c l e a r t h a t the in f orma t i on
t h a t I was g iv ing , I wouldn t be asked any que s t ions . I
re fused to d ea l with any ques t ions t h a t would l e ad to any-
o n e s convic t i on o r a r r e s t .
Q You may have given i n fo rmat ion , wi t h r egard to
o ther people , to law enfor cement agenc ies o r prosecu to rs?
A No . No b ecause - -
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2 Q Did you not j u s t say I may have g i ve n in -
3 format ion ?
4 A I have given informat ion . I t o ld you t h a t . I
s have g iven informat ion wi th regard to the tapp i ng o f
6 government t e l ephones . The ent i r e gover e n t network , I
7 found a way to ge t i n to it and I so ld them t h a t in fo rma t i on
8 and then I found a way to get i n to t h e i r computers , the
9 Nat iona l Crime Info rma t i on Center c omputers, and the
10El Paso Info rmation Ce n te r computer. That ' s it
11 Q Those a re the only t ime s you have ever g ive n
12informat ion?
13 A That i s abso lu te ly cor rec t . Tha t i s the only
14t ime I have ever given t h a t in format ion . I hav e made it
15c l e a r to whomsoever I wa s dea l ing with tha t I would a t no
16t ime g ive them any informa t i on t ha t mi gh t l ea d to an a r -
17r e st o r conv ic t ion .
18Q Yet you t he re fo re are co nced ing t o us t h a t in
19c e rta in l imi t ed ways you s pec i f i ed t ha t you we re an e mployee
20o f ce r t a i n governmen t - -
A At no t ime h ave I eve r been a n emp loyee o f any21
22
government agency .
Q Have you been paid by23
A At no t ime have I ever bee n pa id by a ny go ve r n-24
ment agency fo r a ny informat ion , ca tegor ica l l y .25
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2 Q Here you pa id fo r the a s s i s t a n c e you gave them
3 with regard to the computer o r t e lephone?
4 I was not paid even expense money. I never re
5 ce ived They at tempted a t one t ime to reimburse me fo r
6 a i r fare across the country and I r e f used to accept t he
7 money they offe red to me. At no t ime has the government
8 ever given me any money except when I came ou t o f pr i son .
9 Q Did the government provide you with any con-
1 · s ide ra t ion with regard to any o f your cases?
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Well , o f course . That was the dea l .
Q What was the dea l?
The dea l was I gave them c e r t a in i n fo rma t ion in
order to b e a t c e r t a in cases .
The United Sta tes Government got me ou t o f
pr i son in December 16, 1974. I was r e leased from the
Cal i fo rn ia Prison. This was done with the he lp of the
United Sta tes Government. They were . t ry ing to ge t me ou t
fo r a year to work on the p o s s i b i l i t y o f t h e i r t e l ephones
being tapped.
Q Did you ever give informat ion concerning a man
named John Draper, known as Captain Crown ?
A Absolutely not .
Q Have you ever given in format ion to any govern-
ment agency with regard to Hr. Lenny Bruce?
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Eder 32
2 c e r t a in ly cannot af ford them a t t h i s t ime .
3 I would l i ke to add to my answer the f a c t a t
4 no t ime did I give the government any in fo rmat ion wi th
•5 regard to John Draper .
6 Q However, you would contend t ha t the in fo rmat ion
7 you gave was o f high value to t he government?
8 A Well , let s put it t h i s way; They t r aded fo r
9 it, so they must have thought it was o f high va lue .
1 Q Do you fee l t h a t it 1va s high l eve l informat ion
11 you were giving?
12 A No, s i r . Def in i te ly I tapped the FBI t e l ephones
13 a t t he he igh t o f the Pat ty Hears t i n v e s t i g a t i o n and they
14 f reaked.
15 Q So with regard to those l imi t ed mat te r s , did
16you provide . the government with h igh l eve l in fo rmat ion?
17A I o b j e c t to t h a t simply because you a re j u s t
18t r y i n g to fill out t ha t high l e v e l . Alan J . Weberman's
19l i n e in The Vi l l age Voice was t h a t I was a high l e v e l DEA
20informant . That ' s not my place to a sc e r t a i n whether o r
21not t h i s in fo rmat ion was o f value to them. You have to
22
ask the DEA agents I am going to put on the s t and whether
o r n o t it was o f i n t e r e s t to them.23
24Q When was it t h a t you were r e leased from pr i son
25with the ass i s t ance o f the United Sta tes Government?
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Eder 33
2 A December 16, 1974.
3 Q For how long be fore t ha t had you been in pr i son?
4 A I went to pr i son - - Again, t was the conv ic t ion
5 t ha t took p lace in I s l a Vista ,Santa Barbara , Ca l i fo rn i a ,
6 and I be l ieve t h a t was 1970 o r 71 t h a t I went i n t o p r i s on ,
7 and I escaped from pr i son in December o f 1972 and re tu rned
s vo lun ta r i ly to pr i son May 8 , 1973. I had been in p r i so n
9 fo r t ha t length o f t ime on t ha t charge .
1 Q During t he sp r ing o f 1974, did you ever v i s i t
11 Mr. Thomas King Forcade?
12A Spring o f 1974 was spent i nca rce ra ted in the
13 Cal i fo rn ia p r i son .
14 Q I th ink I am confused about dates . Have you
5t o ld us t ha t you were r e leased from pr ison in Cal i forn ia
6in December o f 74?
7A Th a t s c or r e c t . In the spr ing o f 74, I was
18in the prison .
19Q During the sp r ing of 1975 then you were r e -
20cen t ly r e leased from pr i son with the ass i s t ance o f t he
•21
government; i s . tha t cor rec t?
A Th a t s cor rec t .
22Q During t h a t pe r iod o f t ime, did you ever v i s i t
23
Mr. Thomas King Forcade?24
A During what pe r iod o f t ime?25
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Eder
2 Q Spr ing o f 1975.
3 A Yes I was in t imate ly involved with Thomas King
4 Forcade in numerous business ventures .
• 5 Q Were any o f the business ventures cr imina l?
6 A I ob jec t to the word cr imina l .
7 Q Were any o f those proh ib i ted by law a t t h a t
8 t ime?
9 A Yes they were outlawed def i n i t e l y .
10Q Did you ever v i s i t Mr. Forcade a t the F i f t h
11Avenue Hotel a t Ninth Stree t?
12A Yes. On a da i ly bas i s fo r many months dur ing
13 the t ime we had t h a t s u i t e .
14Q V e
? ou sa id we
had that su i t e Were you
15a par tner?
16A During the t ime we had t ha t su i t e - - I w i l l
17change t ha t .
18Q What bus iness was c a r r i e d on a t t ha t l oca t ion?
A19
What business was c a r r i e d on a t t h a t l oca t ion?
2Numerous bus ines ses , I suppose .
Q What bus ines ses , i any t ha t you know about?• 21
A Work on HIGH TIMES MAGAZINE d i s t r i b u t i o n o f22
mari juana.23
Q In what kind o f quan t i t i e s?24
A Hundred pounds 200 pounds 500 pounds.25
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I Eder 36
2 found a quan t i ty o f mari juana t he re . Following t h a t , when
3 the d i s t r i c t a t to rney here in New York a t tempted to coerce
4 me i n to t e s t i fy i ng with regard to t ha t marijuana be longing
5
7
8
to Thomas King Forcade.
Q I s t h a t Mr. Newgarten?
A That ' s cor rec t .
Q You say he a t tempted to coerce you. What did
9 he say?
1A That ' s cor rec t . He sa id he knew I had a dea l
11 with the Drug Enforcement Agency to k i l l the case fo r me
12in New York City he re based on informat ion t ha t I had
13suppl ied to them with regard to the computers, and he
14at tempted to - - I don ' t know the r i g h t word - - quash t he
15dea l . e re fused to a l low the dea l to go through un les s
16I agreed to t e s t i f y o r give informat ion aga ins t Thomas
17Kini; Forcade, a t which t ime I t o ld him to ge t fucked.
18Q Close quote?
19A Close quote .
20Q Thank you.
A And t o l d him my dea l with the Drug Enforcement21
Agency - - and I l i ve d up to my deal with the Drug Enforce-
22ment Agency - - my dea l , a t the beginning, with the Drug
23
Enforcement Agency, was a t no t ime was I to be asked fo r24
any informat ion t ha t might l ead to an a r r e s t o r convic t ion ,25
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1 Eder 37
2 so I d i d n t have to supp ly him with t ha t in fo rmat ion and
3 if he re fused to go along with the DEA then t ha t was t he
4 problem between him and t he DEA and to leave me out o f it
6
7
Q Mr. Eder , when you did give informat ion to
governmental agenc ies , you t o l d us you had an unders tanding
t h a t informat ion would not l ead to an a r r e s t and you would
8 not be asked ques t ions t ha t might l ead to an a r r e s t ; i s
9 t ha t cor rec t?
10 A No. ·11y or ig ina l dea l with the United S t a t e s
11 Government was simply the dea l was made whileI
was in
12 pr i son and I t o l d t he man he had read me completely wrong
13 if he thought I would t r ad e my pr i son c e l l fo r another
14 man, put ano ther man in my p lace . We made an agreement
15 a t the t ime, no t only was I no t expected to give up any
16 informat ion and would not be asked any ques t ions t h a t may
17l ead to an a r r e s t o r conv ic t ion .
18Q Did you ever have any agreement you would never
19mention anybody s name?
20A No, I d o n t th ink so .
21Q Your agreement was while you might ment ion
somebody s name, no a r r e s t would r e s u l t ; i s t h a t cor rec t?
23A No. L e t s g e t it s t r a i g h t . You a r e g e t t i n g
24cu te aga in . You ge t cute a l o t . Don t do it
25Our agreement was I might be asked ques t ions
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1 Eder 38
2 t h a t would l ead to an a r r e s t o r convic t ion . At t he t ime
3 I made my dea l with the government I fu l l y unders tood the
4 f a c t the re a re t h ings t h a t a re more important to an in -
•5 ves t iga t ive agency o f the United Sta tes Government than
a r r e s t s o r conv ic t ions and those two th ings a re t h e s a f e ty
7 o f t h e i r personnel and t he se c u r i t y o f t h e i r i n fo rma t ion
8 and communications; t h e re fo re my dea l with the government
9 as to a system in a rea s dea l ing with the sa fe ty o f t h e i r
10personnel o r t h e i r s e c u r i t i e s o f t h e i r in fo rmat ion o r com-
11munica t ions .
12Q But in t he course o f t he in fo rmat ion you d id
13 g e t you may have named names?
14 MR KAHN: I o b jec t to the form o f t h a t
15ques t ion .
16A Yes.
17Q Did you ever name t he name o f anybody who
18committed a cr ime in the course of giv ing in fo rmat ion?
19A No. Now we can dea l with the ques t ion . No.
2Okay.
Q I want to thank you fo r your compliment on my21
looks .22
You have t o l d us you know you sometimes r e p re -23
sen ted y o u r s e l f in dea l ing with the prosecu to rs ; i s t h a t24
cor rec t ?25
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Eder 39
2 A Yes I was propr ia persona in a case in Los
3 Angeles County which I b e a t and in Ventura County and
· 4 in Santa Barbara County and San Luis Obispo County I
6
7
represented myself in those cases and those j u r i sd i c t i ons
Q Any o f those cases l ead to gu i l t y p leas?
A The Los Angeles case was acqu i t t a l and the
s case in Ventura Cal i fo rn ia l ed to a g u i l t y p l e a and the
9 case in Santa Barbara Cal i fo rn ia l ed to being found g u i l t y
by a j u ry and the case in San Luis . Obispo County l ed to1
11 a p lea o f g u i l t y on an escape charge.
12Q There have been t imes where you have had
13 a t to rneys r ep resen t ing you?
14A Oh def i n i t e l y . Those a re the only t imes I
15was not r ep resen ted .
16Q The case involving the 5300 pounds i n F lo r ida
17did you have an a t to rney in tha t mat ter?
18A I d id .
19Q Who was tha t?
2A During the case?
Q Yes21
A During the t r i a l i t s e l f ?
22
Q Yes.23
A Michael Kennedy.24
Q Did he r es ign as your a t torney?25
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1
2 A
Eder Ge d id .
3 Q Did he give a reaso n for it a t the t ime t h a t
4 you know of?
5 A He did .
6 Q What was t ha t?
7 A He sa id he d i d n t want - - he wouldn t defend
8 people t ha t worked with the gove r nment .
9 Q In f a c t did he c a l l you an in formant?
10 A He did .
11 Q Did he express shock you had not t o l d him?
12 A Yes
13 Q Had you t o ld him?
14 A No .
5 Q So you did not inform your a t to rney th a t you
16had a re la t ionsh ip with governmenta l agenc ies?
17A That i s cor rec t .
18Q At t h a t t ime d id you ask Mr . Kennedy to de lay
19before informing anybody o f the new fac t he had learned?
20A That i s c or r e c t and which he d id .
2Q And t he r e fo r e , he l a te r revea led it with your
consent?
22A He did not a t my consent .
23
Q Did an a l l e ga t ion t h a t you were shown t o have24
25been a governmen t informant and an informant fo r th e DEA
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Eder
2 ever appear in prin. t t ha t you know of?
3 A Yes, it did .
4 Q Where and when?
5 A HIGH TIMES MAGAZINE 'rhe when would b e I
6 th ink the Christmas i s sue two years ago.
7 Q And?
8 A About a year and a ha l f - - Not t h i s l a s t
9 Christmas but the Christmas i s sue pr io r to t ha t .
10 Q Was t ha t s ta tement t r ue or fa l se?
11 A Let me see it aga in so I can say what i s t rue
12 and what i s f a l se .
13The s ta tement i s fa l se and I wil l dea l with
14where it i s f a l s e in j u s t a moment.
15As fa r as t h i s i s concerned, it s t a t e s here
16and I will · read the heading , Dope Hero Turns Narc. The
17term Narc means e i t h e r someone who i s working fo r t he
18Narcot i cs Agency fo r the United Sta tes o r an in formant in
19narco t ics cases fo r the United Sta tes Government. That i s
20unt rue . t a l so says h e re on the seventh l i n e o f t h i s
• 2
a r t i c l e it says was revea led in cour t as a government
in formant . That i s un t rue . Never came ou t in a cour t o f
22
law.23
MR KAHN: Are you in t roduc ing th i s · i n to
24
the record?25
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1
2
Eder 2·MR MICHAELS: Would l i ke i t ?ou to mark
3 MR KAHN: Yes
4 MR MICHAELS: Fine
• 5Q The f a l se a l l ega t ion t h a t appeared in p r i n t in
6 HIGH TIMES MAGAZINE t ha t you had been revea led in cour t to
7 be a narc , d id t h a t cause you a l o ss o f income?
8 Yes
9 Q What income?
1Income der ived from the mari juana bus iness .
11 Q Didt
cos t you any l o ss o f income in your
12yacht ing bus iness?
13 No
14Q Did t c os t you any loss o f income in any o t h e r
15businesses?
I d o n t th ink so .16
17Q Did t cos t you any loss o f repu ta t ion as an
18hones t out law o r otherwise?
19Most d e f i n i t e l y .
2Q In f ac t , i s n t t the kind o f a l l e ga t ion you
•
21a re complaining about in t h i s case?
A Most def i n i t e l y , but not qu i t e as s t rong ly
22because t he re was no s p e c i f i c i t y as to what t was I was
23
supposed to have done within the HIGH TIMES a r t i c l e .
24
Q In f ac t , i s t your opinion t ha t the HIGH TIMES25
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Eder 43
2 a r t i c l e caused much more damage to your income as an ou t -
3 law?
4 A Poss ib ly .
• 5 Q Have you, to th i s da te , t aken any l e ga l ac t ion
6 agains t HIGH TIMES MAGAZINE o r Transhigh Corpora t ion?
7 A No, I have not , bu t t ha t was simply because a t
8 the t ime I was not in a pos i t ion to do so and I am g lad you
9 brought t ha t to my a t t e n t ion , because we in tend to do t a t
1 · t h i s po in t .
Q Did you ever complain in wri t ing t h a t t he in -
2 format ion publ i shed t h e re i n was fa l se?
3 A No, not in wri t ing .
14 Q Did you ever complain ora l l y t ha t t was f a l s e
15 to HIGH TIMES MAGAZINE?
6 A No, Thomas King Forcade.
17Q What did you say?
8A Told him t was b u l l s h i t and
9Q What did he say?
20A Be t ha t as t may, Thomas King Forcade and I• 21
were in business wi th the mari juana and he chea ted me out
22
o f a l a rge sum o f money and t ha t i s what was t he bas ic
23argument or i g i na l l y .
24Q How much mari juana did you and Thomas br ing
25in to the count ry dur ing the course o f t h a t business?
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1 Eder )
U /A Many thousands o f pounds
3 Q How many d i f fe ren t impor ta t ions were involved
4 approximately?
5 A Three .
6 Q By a i rp lane , sh ip o r how?
7 A By boa t .
8 Q So in f a c t the re came a t ime when you f e l t t h a t
9 Thomas King Forcade cheated you ou t o f a l arg e sum o f money?
10 A He d id .
11 Q When was t h a t ?
12A When did I l e arn he chea ted me ou t o f the
13money?
14 Q Yes .
5A A p r i l 1 97 7 .
16Q And so a f t e r Apri l 1977 what was your opin ion
17o f Mr . Forcad e s honesty?
18A I s topped doing bus ines s with Mr Forcade a t
19t h a t po in t and took my money back a way from him .
20Q What was you r opin ion o f Mr . Forcade?
21A That he was a c h ~ a t t h a t he wa s not an hone st
outla\·1 .
22
23Q Did you ever t ll a nybody t ha t ?
A Tom Forcade .24
25Q Anyone e l s e?
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Eder 45
2 A No I d i d n t fee l it was necessary . A l o t
3 o f people knew about it Yes I did t e l l a l o t o f people
4 in the bus iness so they could pro t e c t themselves from Mr
5
6
Thomas King Forcade.
Q Did you ever complain in wri t ing to Mr. Michael
7 Kennedy about his having sa id you were a narc o r drug
s agency informant?
9 A No.
10Q Did you ever complain o r a l l y to him about t h a t
11 s tatement?
12A Yes.
13Q What did you say?
14A You know I sa id t h a t s ince t h a t w a sn t t rue ,
5t h a t I f e l t he was wrong in saying t ha t .
16Q What did he say?
17A He sa id , wel l , you know he sa id we a re a l l
18e n t i t l e d to our opinion. In f ac t , I th ink it was h i s words.
19Q Did you ever t ake any l ega l ac t ion aga ins t him?
20A No I haven t ye t .
Make a note I am suing him too . L e t s s impl i f21
t ha t .
22Q Do you have any c la im to any sec re t , confident ia
23
conversa t ions with Mr. Kennedy about your s t a t u s as an24
a l leged informant on narco t i c cases?25
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Eder
T3 2 A I m not su re I understand what you are t a l k i n g
3 about .
4 Q You have t o ld us something about conversa t ions
•5 \vi th Mr. Kennedy, your former a t to rney concerning t he
6 a l l e g a t i o n which he made which was repor t ed in HIGH TIMES
7 t ha t in fac t you were a narc informant .
8 A Did I?
9 Q I m saying a re you c la iming t he re was any
10o th e r conversat ion with him with regard to your s t a t us as
11an informant which was s e c r e t o r conf iden t i a l ?
12A Yes, a l l o f t was s e c r e t and c onf ide n t i a l . He
13 was my a t to rney .
14Q Were any o f those s e c r e t and conf iden t i a l con-
15versa t ions concerning whe the r .o r no t you were i n f a c t a
16narc informant?
17Most d e f i n i t e l y .
18Q You have t o ld us t h a t you wished to consider.
19br ing ing l ega l ac t ion aga ins t Mr. Kennedy. I t ake t you
20would not ob jec t to h i s t e s t i f y i n g about your conversa t ions
•21
concerning your a l leged s t a tus as a narc in fo rmant?
A l lould I ob jec t to tha t? I a l ready ob jec t to
22t ha t . I ob je c t t o h i s having v io la t ed the a t t o rney-c l i en t
23
r e l a t i o n sh i p and t has j u s t dawned on me, s i t t i n g here in24
your of f i ce I should t ake l e g a l ac t ion aga ins t him.25
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1 Eder 47
2 Q You are saying he v io la t ed a conf idence th a t
3 in h i s opin ion you were a narc informant?
4 A That i s c or r e c t .
5 Q You are contending the re were conversa t ions you
6 had with him in which t ha t was discussed in which you ex -
7 pec ted and hoped would be kept se c re t ?
8 A Yes.
9 Q During those conversa t ions , did you and he d i s -
10cuss your a c t i v i t i e s however l imi ted , in ass i s t i ng the
11government?
12A Correc t .
13 Q Have you ever give n informat ion to any govern
14ment agency concerning a narco t i c s inves t iga t ion o r prosecu-
15t io n?
16MR KAHN: I am going to ob jec t to tha t . .
17The ques t ion was asked and ~ n s w e r e e a r l i e r .
18
19
Q Were t he re o the r p laces as ide from the Fi f t h
Avenue Hotel where you and Mr. Forcade conducted an o u t l aw ]20
business as you c a l l i t ?
A I d o n t have to21
MR KAHN: I ob je c t to the ques t ion and
22d i r e c t him not to answer .
23
A Hold it. I wi l l answer the ques t ion bu t I won t
24
ge t i n to any spec i f i c i t y .25
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•
2
3
4
5
6
Q
A
Q
A
Eder
Yes We are involved.
Were the re , in fac t , severa l o the r places?
Yes.
Where do you l ive?
In my su i tcase . I do not have a permanent
7 domici le .
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
5
16
7
18
19
2
21
22
23
24
25
Q Do you own r ea l e s t a t e in Manhattan?
A No. I d o n t own r ea l e s t a t e anywhere.
Q Are you a pa r tne r , member o f a f i rm o r share -
holder in any business which owns r ea l e s t a t e in Manhattan?
A No.
Q Do you own any boats?
A No.
Q What i s your business. a t t h i s t ime?
A I m a corporat ion in New York.
Q Which does what?
A Se l l s ea rs .
Q E-a- r - s?
A Se l l s ea r s .
Q I s t ha t the so le bus iness of t ha t company?
A At t ha t po in t , yes .
Q What i s the name of the company?
A Picaresque of New York.
Q What business did t ha t corporat ion normal ly
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Eder 49
2 conduct?
3 A Conduct ing no bus iness bes ides t ha t . ]4 Q Have you made arrangements fo r any improvements
•5 on any r e a l e s t a t e in Manhattan wi th in the l a s t two y ea r s ?
6 A I d o n t know what t h a t means so I c a n t answer .
7 Would you be a little more s pe c i f i c , you know i n s t e a d o f
s being a lawyer?
9 Q Have you ar ranged fo r se rv ice s o f a r c h i t e c t s ,
10 ca rpen te r s , e l e c t r i c i a n s , renova to rs , r e s t o r e r s ; r eb u i ld e r s
11 o r any othe r persons whose bus iness i s invo lved in t he im -
12provement o f r e a l t y ?
13A I worked on it fo r a whi le but noth ing came to
14f r u i t i o n .
15Q A b u i l d i n g a t what address?
16A I d o n t know the address . t was in t he
17twen t ies bu t I d i d n t buy t he b u i ld in g , so t h a t s it
18was a plan to buy a b u i l d i n g through a corpora t ion I was
19invo lved with and t he p l an never came to f r u i t i o n . T h a t s
20a l l .
•21
Q Are you t e l l i n g us then t h a t a t one t ime you
made a co n t r ac t to purchase a bui ld ing bu t did not c lo s e
22the dea l?
3
HR KAHN: I o b j e c t to t h a t .24
25A No I d i d n t make any co n t r ac t to purchase any
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Eder
2 bu i ld ing .
3 Q What was the pr i c e of the bu i ld ing which you
4 d i d n t buy?
•5 A How does t ha t r e l a t e ?
6 MR KAHN: I objec t to t h i s e n t i r e l i n e
7 o f ques t ioning fo r the reasons t i s t o t a l l y im
8 mater ia l to any defense t ha t may be l eg i t ima te ly
9 ra i sed ·in the ac t ion and t he re i s no ind ica t ion what
10 Mr Michaels i s t a lk ing about and I t h ink t i s un
11 f a i r to ask the wi tness to respond. I am not sure .
12 what you a re t a lk ing about and I am not su re my
13witness does e i t h e r .
14Q Do you have any business o ther than the·
15Picaresque business you have t o l d us about?
16A What o ther businesses do I have o r what o the r
17businesses do I pro jec t?
18Q What o ther businesses are you conducting now?
19A In the United Sta tes , none.
20Q Outs ide the United Sta tes?
A Various o ther business ventures
• 21
Q Such as?
22
MR KAHN: I am going to ob je c t .23
HR MICHAELS: I am going to ob je c t to24
your ob jec t ion . The c la im i s t ha t there i s a de ro-25
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1 Eder G2 MR MICHAELS: Back on the record .
3 A In the Caribbean and fu r the r than t ha t , I would
4 r a the r not s t a t e , and the reason I would ra the r not s t a t e
• 5 t i s simply because I a l ready have J:ieen i n ju red by t h i s
6 par ty and I d o n t want t h a t in format ion ava i l ab le to t h i s
7 par ty .
8 Q Under what j u r i s d i c t i on? What i s l and o r
9 loca l i ty?
1 A That i s exact ly what I m t e l l i n g you I am no t
11 going to t e l l you.
12 MR MICHAELS: Off the record .
3 Discussion o f f the record . )
14 MR MICHAELS: Back on the r ecord .
15 Q You are not making any money from t h a t t h i s
16year , the boa t ing bus iness?
17A No.
18Q Did you make any money from t l a s t year?
19A Yes.
20Q About how much?
A A few hundred do l l a r s .• 21
22
Q Did you make any money from t the year before
tha t?23
24A I w a sn t in t the year before t h a t .
25Q How about the opa l bus iness ; are you making any
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1 Fr3er
2 money t h i s year?
3 A A few d o l l a r s .
4 Q Make any money in it l a s t year?
5 A I wasn t in it l a s t year .
6 Pardon me t h a t s wrong . I was in it l a s t
7 yea r and no I did not make any money in it l as t year
8 Q What a re you making money in t h i s yea r?
9 A Nothing . It i s a p re t t y bad year so f a r .
10Q What did you make money in l a s t yea r ?
11 A I sa id I made a few do l l a r s in the boa t
12busin es s l as t year . Maybe two t h r ee hund re d do l l a r s .
13Q Wha t e l s e?
14A Th a t s it
15Q ow did you suppor t yourse lf l as t yea r?
16A I d i d n t .
17Q ow did you buy food?
18A I d i d n t .
19Q You did wi thou t food a l l yea r ?
20A No. I d i d n t buy any food .
Q You are t e l l i n g us t ha t your on ly income fo r21
t he yea r o r t he only income was f rom those bus inesse s?
22A From tho s e bus ines ses .
23
Q l 111a t was your t o t a l income fo r the yea r 1976?
24
A Maybe t h r e e , f i ve , four hundred do l l a r s .25
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E rl.er
2 Q ow about 1977?
3 A Probably about the same .
4 Q ow about 1978?
5 A I d o n t know I can t deal with tha t because
6 I d o n t know how much I made because I d o n t keep any re -
7 cords , but t h a t s what I f igure I made
8 Q You do keep copies o f the t ax re tu rns you f i l e ,
9 do you not?
10A No , I d o n t have any t ax re turns . I d o n t f i l e
income t ax .
12Q You d o n t f i l e any income t ax anywhere?
13 That s c or r e c t .
4Q ow much d id you make from the mari j u ana
5bus iness , let s say , in 1975?
6I have no i dea .
17Q 1976?
18A I d o n t know
19Q 1977?
20Don t know .
Q 1978?21
A Don t know .22
Q 1979?23
Don t k n d ~24
Q You have been in the mari juana bus i ness in 1979?25
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2 A No.
3 Q I m so r ry . I though t you sa id you didn t know
4 how much you made in the mari juana bus iness in 1979. Are
5 you saying you don t know because you were in the bus ines s
6 o r you d o n t know - -
7
8
A I m say i ng I don t know because I haven t been
doing anything in 1979 in the mari juana bus iness . I haven t
9 been in the mar i juana bus iness in 1979 , but I was in t he
10 mari juana bus iness p r i o r to 1979.
11Q
Up through 1978 , perhaps?
12A Sure .
13 Q You t o ld us about a d ispu te wi t h Mr . Forcade
14 t ha t l ed you to f e e l he chea ted you ou t o f a s ubs t a n t i a l
15sum o f money. How much money was t h a t ?
16A It was n t money ; it was mari juana .
17Q How much mari juana was i t ?
18A Fi f ty pound s .
19Q How much does t h a t go fo r?
20A It depe nds on your neighborhood .
Q2
Appro ximate ly a t th a t t ime , l e t s say in the
22neighborhood in which the ac t you were comp l a i n i n g abou t
occurred?23
A l\.bout 200 a pound. It was i n F lo r id a .24
Q About 10 , 000, maybe?25
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2
Eder
ut you see , in theYes about ten grand.
3 course of t h i s t he re i s a cost of doing bus iness ; the c os t
4 of doing business i s a l l of it. I d o n t make any p r o f i t s ,
•5 so I d o n t pay any t axes . It s obvious what I am saying
6 i s I don t pay any t axes to the United Sta tes Government
7 and I don t have any i n t e n t ion to pay taxes to the United
8 Sta tes Government. Therefore , I am not going to s t a t e
9 under tes t imony t ha t I made any money on any ventures .
10Q Have you ever o r do you ever in tend to pay
11 t axes to the Sta te ofew
York o r t he S ta t e o f F lo r ida o r
12any other s ta te o r municipal j u r i s d i c t i on?
13 A I d o n t in tend to pay any t axes to any govern-
14ment agency in the world a t any t ime a t th i s point , Since
15I am an anarchis t . , I d o n t be l i eve in government.
16Q Have you done t ha t in the past? Have.you made
17out tax re tu rns and paid taxes?
18A I c a n t ever remember making a - -
19Q To any s t a t e o r municipal government?
•
20
21
A I have s o r t of a dea l with the government.
Whatever they ge t i s t he i r s and whatever I ge t i s mine
Q This deal , i s t h i s l i k e the o ther dea ls you
l22
are t e l l i n g us about where you made a spec i f i c agreement23
with some government o f f i c i a l ?24
A I have no agreement with any government25
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Eder
2 o f f i c i a l . I j u s t decided I 'm not going to pay any t a x e s .
3 Q You used t he word dea l , as a joke?
4 A I have, a t t imes , say, fo r a few days , worked
•5 and the monies t h a t I may have earned would have been ,
6 would have had withho ld ing t axes taken out o f it and if
7 t he re was any withho ld ing t ax which was t aken , I never
8 f i l e d to g e t any back and I l e t the government keep t h a t
9 but I did not f i l e income t a x . I j u s t re fuse to f i l e it.
1 I don ' t pay any a t t e n t i o n to t h a t .
11 QWhere did you g e t the money to use to go i n
12the boa t bus iness?
13
14
A I d i d n ' t put any money in t he boat b u s in e s s .
They pay me a smal l amount o f money fo r advice.]
15Q We a re a l l aware t ha t l e g a l proceedings a re
16expensive. How do you f inance l ega l proceed ings ; from
17what source o f income?
18A My a t to rney , a t t h i s po in t , does not charge
19me any money. He has - - I be l ieve he used the te rm ' 'pro
2bono. I s t h a t the term? Pro bono publ i co . Since I d o n ' t
•21
pay t h i s poor fe l low, we a r e was t ing a tremendous amount
o f t ime. I d o n ' t pay any a t to rney .
22
23
Where did I ge t the money to pay Michael
Kennedy? From the mari juana bus ines s .
24
Q In f ac t , over t h e course o f your dea l ings in
5
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1 Eder
/ .I
58
- ·2 the mari juana business , you have taken in a gre a t dea l
o f money , have you not?
4 A Yes bu t I d i d n t make any. The cos t o f doing
5 bus iness was always j u s t about exact ly the amoun t o f t he
6 mari juana bus ines s .
7 Q Would you say , perhaps , over the cour s e o f
8 your l i fe t ime you have t aken in more than a mil l ion do l l a r s
9 in t he marijuana business?
10A ·r f the ques t io n i s , has a million do l l a r s gone
11 through my hands in t he mari ju a na bus iness , yes .
12 Q So given the income pos i t ion t ha t you a re t e l l
13 ing us t ha t you have a t t h i s p o i n t , you are not c la iming
14 t h a t Mr . Weberman s a r t i c l e caused you any l o ss o f any in -
15 c ome in the opa l o r boa t bus ines s , are you?
16A · I m c la iming t h a t it caused me not to make any
17money and t ha t i s why I h a v e n t made any money , because
18the re are ce r t a i n peop le who have re f used to do bus ines s
19w ith me based on the f a c t Weberman s a r t i c l e s t a t e s I am
20an informant and who have t e s t i f i e d before a grand j u ry
21in Brooklyn .
Q l·vho were tho s e people t h a t re fused to do
22
3business with you as a r e s u l t o f the a r t i c l e ?
A Well I a t tempted to h i r e someone fo r the24
5magazine t ha t I ha d pro jec ted fo r the fu ture , r ecen t l y ,
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Eder
2 and tha t person sa id , I f I want a cop I w i l l
3 po l ice s t a t i on . ' '
4 Q With regard to your earn ings in the opal
•5 bus iness or boa t bus ines s , a re the re any earn ings t h a t you
6 have l o s t as a r e su l t o f the publ ica t ion o f t h i s a r t i c l e ?
7 A Yes I be l ieve so . There i s a fe l low in Texas
8 his name i s Ray
9 Q Ray what?
1 A Car te r .
11 QDo
you know h i s address?
12 A No no t a t the moment but I w i l l c e r t a i n l y
13 ge t t for you. And Ray Car te r re fused to become i nvo lved
14 with me in the opa l business over the i nc iden t .
15Q Had you previous ly been involved in the opa l
16bus iness with Mr. Carte r?
17A No.
18Q That was only a plan pos s ib i l i t y?
19A The ven tu re . The venture spec i f i ca l l y went
20down because o f t h i s a r t i c l e .
•21
Q Did t h a t venture produce any income to you in
22
the pas t?
A No.3
Q Do you ever char t e r your boa t to smugglers?24
A No.5
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1 Eder 60
2 Q Outlaws o f a ny kind?______/
3 A Not to my knowledge .
4 MR MICHAELS: Let s t ake a recess .
5 Rec es s taken . )
6 BY MR MICHAELS:
7 Q Do I unde rs t and c or r e c t ly yo u have t o ld us
8 tha t your only income from l eg i t ima te businesses , dur i ng
9 1977 and 1978, was a few hundred do l l a rs?
10A No. You unders tand c or r e c t ly as s t a t i n g t h a t
11t ha t i s a l l I wish to s t a t e t h a t I had made s imply becaus e
12I don t want it to appear anywhere on the record th a t I
13have s t a t e d more t han t h a t because I d o n t wan t the govern-
14ment, a t some po in t , to come back to me and say why didn t
15I pay taxes on it
16Q Did you l o se ~ y money on a ny e x i s t i ng l e g i t ima t
17business as a r e s u l t of the pub l i ca t ion o f the a r t i c l e ?
A18
Yes , I d id . It has caused me - - It has caused
19me to postpone the pub l i ca t ion da te o f magazine t h a t I have
20been planning fo r the pa s t year .
Q Did you have any income from th a t magazine in21
the p a s t ?22
A No , it was j u s t a pro jec ted income.23
24
25
Q I s t he re any ex is t i ng bus iness t ha t provided
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2
3
4
•5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
•
21
22
23
24
25
Eder
publ ica t ion?
viMR KAHN: I have to ob jec t to t h a t
ques t ion on the grounds it a l ready has been asked
and answered.
MR MICHAELS: Off the record .
Discussion o f f the record .
MR MICHAELS: Back on the r ecord .
A Yes. The reason I have not done any bus iness
in the mar i juana business in 1979 i s pr imar i ly based on
th i s a r t i c l e .
Q In f ac t , the pr imary loss economical ly you had
as a r e s u l t o f t h i s pub l i ca t ion i s the decl ine o f your
mari juana bus ines s , i s it not?
A Exact ly .
Q That i s the overwhelming and predominant th ing
t ha t the case i s about , isn t i t ?
A Yes. It most ce r t a i n l y i s . I th ink I can
answer t ha t t h a t i s t r ue .
Q Thank you.
Off the record
Discussion of f the r ecord .
MR MICHAELS: Back on the r ecord .
Q You have t o l d us about your b e l i e f t h a t t h a t
a r t i c l e was publ i shed with malice?
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•
Eder 62
2 A Correc t .
3 Q What do you be l ieve the or ig in was o f t ha t
4 malice?
5 A My re fusa l to any longer s e l l mari juana to
6 A. J . \•leberman a t very good pr i c e s .
7 Q When was t ha t?
8 A I stopped se l l i ng it to him around June of
9 1977. I be l ieve t ha t i s the l a s t t r ansac t ion , June o f
10 1977. t may have been Ju ly , ·but I d o n t remember, but in
the summer, sp r ing o r summer of 1977 I stopped se l l i ng to
12him.
3 Q You stopped because you bel ieved the s e l l i n g
4 of mari juana was wrong, aga ins t the law or some othe r
5 reason?
6A No, I cu t him o f f ,
7Q Why?
18A Because I decided he was a pain in the ass .
9Q Didn t you l eave to vn about tha t t ime because
20of the a r t i c l e t ha t appeared in HIGH TIMES t h a t claimed
2you were ·a narc informant?
22
A Excuse me. The t ime I s topped doing business ,
I cu t him - - cu t A. J . Weberman fr om his supply o f23
mari juana took place in June o r Ju ly o f 1977. The pub l i ca -24
25t ion in ques t ion i s , the HIGH TIMES a r t i c l e appeared in the
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1 Ede r 63
2 De c emh e r i s su e which prob a bly came out i lround t he e nd o f
3 Oc t o ber o r t he beginning o f NovembP r .
4 Q When wa s it t h a t Michael Ke nnedy made the
5 s t a t emen t t ha t you were a n a r c info rman t ?
6 A I be l ieve around Labor Day o f t h a t sa me y e a r
7 and I had c u t him o f f months be fore t h a t .
8 Q That was during the t ime ~ l e you wer e working
9fo r the governmen t age ncy yo u have n a med in the l i m i t e d
10way you have spec i f i ed?
11 A No.I had not wo r ked fo r those go vernmen t
12agenc ies . I worked tw ice fo r t he Fede r a l nur e au o f I n -
13v e s t ig a t i on on the te lephone dea l in 1975 and I worked
14wi t h the governme n t on the o th e r case , t he computers , in
151976 , so it was , l i ke , a t l e ast a minimum o f a y ea r h a d
16gone by s ince I had anything to do with the gove r nme n t .
17Q Le t me show you t h i s documen t sir , Rnd as k yo u
18if t h i s i s your compla in t iri the cas e we a re d i scuss in g ?
19The summons i s o n top and the do c ument b e low th a t i s t h e
20one I am re fe r r ing to .
A Ye s , I t h ink so . It l ooks l i k e it
21
Q Th a nk you . At the t ime o f the e ve nts th a t you
a re complain ing a bout in the l awsu i t t h a t we a r e d is cuss ing
3
today , y our complain t s t a te s in p a rag r a ph 6 t ha t you we re
24
se l f - employed as e n t repreneur a nd ve ntu r e ca p i t a l i s t ; i s25
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Ec' er 64
2 t h a t t rue?
3 A I 'm not su re what "ven ture c a p i t a l i s t is. I
4 am an en t repreneur . I don t have a c a p i t a l to be a ven tu re
5 c a p i t a l i s t and I know a l o t o f c a p i t a l i s t s with money and
6 I pu t t oge the r a l o t o f dea l s .
7 Q ivhat do you do when you put toge the r dea l s?
8 A I 'm t r y i n g t o put toge the r a magazine . I have
9 rece ived commitments fo r l a rge sums o f money to p u t th i s
10magazine ou t , and because of · t h i s a r t i c l e , I have not bee n
11
ab le to h i r e c e r t a in p a r t i e s who have re fused to work fo r
12me simp ly because o f t h i s a r t i c l e and t h i s kind o f a re p u t a -
13t i on .
14Q ivho has made commitments to f inance your ve n ture
5you a re t e l l i n g us about?
16A Cer ta in people in t he Caribbean .
17Q Who?
18I 'm not going to t e l l you t h a t . I f it becomes
9necessary a t trial , if it i s up fo r ques t ion , I suppose I
20wi ll br ing th es e people i n .
Q I f t h e r e i s going to be a trial, it i s ne c e s s a ry2
fo r you to e s t a b l i s h a b as i s on which to proceed . I a sk
22
you if the b a s i s o f the s ta tements in the compla in t a re
23
t r u e a s to what your income was and if you are t e l l i n g
24
me you list spec ific monies , I have to ask you t o id e n t i f y25
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1 Eder 66
2 t he mar i juana bus iness?
3 MR KAHN: I am going to o b jec t to t h a t
4 on the grounds it c a l l s fo r an opin ion which i s
5 not l eg a l l y ma te r i a l o r admiss ib le and t h e r e f o r e
6 it i s not r e l ev an t t o the depos i t i on .
7 Q Your compla in t says in paragraph 6 t h a t a t t he
s t ime o f the even ts complained o f h e r e in you were s e l f -
9 employed as an en t repreneur and ven ture c a p i t a l i s t . Are
10 t he bases you t o l d us about the ex t en t o f your e f f o r t as
11 an en t repreneur and ven ture c a p i t a l i s t t h a t i s the p r o -
12posed magazine the opa l bus iness the b o a t bus iness and
13 the mari juana bus iness? I s t h a t a l l the bus inesses you
14\Vere in
15Let me s t a t e t h i s . Tha t i s c o r re c t ex cep t f o r
16the f a c t t h a t up to th.is p o in t in t ime my a t t o r n ey Mr.
17Marc· Kahn had no i dea o f the f a c t I was in the mar i juana
18bus iness . That i s t he first he l ea rned of t h a t so we w i l l
19c l e a r the record .
20Yes t h a t i s t r u e o ther than having lo s ses• 21
I can only t h i n k o f one lo s s in t he opal bus iness b u t I
can th ink o f t h r ee los ses in t he magazine bus iness .
22Now s ince the money has a l r ead y been p u t up
23
on the magazine I be l i eve t h a t I can prove in a co u r t o f
24
law I have in f a c t been in ju red in the magazine b u s in e s s .25
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Eder 67
2 MR KAHN: For the record , he has a l so
3 t e s t i f ie d e a r l i e r t ha t he i s involved in the ea r
bus ines s .
5 Q The businesses you are t a lk ing about a re in
6 the proposed magazine business and mari juana business and
7 the sympathet ic ea r business? You l o s t business in the
8 ea r
9 I l o s t bus iness in every area because soc i a l
10 ost rac ism took p lace by v i r tue o f t h i s a r t i c l e .
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Q
You say you wi l l do - - You mean by t h a t you
have
I th ink I can prove - - we can prove in a cour t
o f law when we p.it people on the s tand , they in f a c t did
not en te r i n to business dea l ings with me o r refused to go
ahead with business deal ings , agreements we had p r i o r to
th i s a r t i c l e appear ing .
Q But in 1978 your t o t a l income was two or t h r e e
hundred dol la r s ; i s t h a t cor rec t?
My s ta tement i s , here again, my s ta tement i s I
keep no records because I d o n t in tend to pay the govern-
ment any taxes on what I earn in any area , so when people
ask me how much money I made l a s t year ; I genera l ly t ll
them l e s s than what it cos t s , l e s s than what the f igu re i s
for paying t axes . That i s how I f igure my income as l e s s
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Eder 69
2 you having made more money than I would have to pay t axes
3 on.
4 I would l i ke to make one po in t
•MR KAHN: On the record he has al ready
6 t e s t i f i e d t ha t he has l o s t business oppor tun i t i e s for
7 inves tment in var ious bus iness ventures which have
8 resu l t ed in l o s t income oppor tuni ty fo r him in the
9 fu ture as well as presen t and pas t .
10 Q How many do l l a r s , approximately , do you fee l
11you l o s t al ready as a r e s u l t of the pub l i ca t ion of t h i s
12 a r t i c l e ?
13 A I d o n t know, but I wil l s t a t e t h i s , t ha t I
14 have one person, one of the t h ree people who I wi l l o r wi l l
15 not give you the names, depending on whether o r not they
16are wi l l ing to give t h e i r names up, and one of these people ,
17s ince the a r t i c l e , refused , changed his mind with regard to
18invest ing 100,000 in a magazine. That i s a subs t an t i a l
19sum of money.
2What i s the name o f the magazine you proposed?
A OUTLAW
•
21
Q I s t ha t about cr iminal bus iness?22
A Yes, .of course . · t i s about those outs ide the23
law.24
25Q Did you discuss these losses and your var ious
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/ 70 J/
LEder
2 b u s in es s lo s se s and l o s t oppo r t u n i t i es wi th your a t t o r ney
3 p r io r to today?
4 MR . KAHN : I am going to objec t to th a t
5 o n the grounds t ha t i s a co n f id en t i a l ma t t e r . That
6 i s n o t s u b j ec t t o y our d i s c lo s u r e . I wi ll ob j ec t t o
7 any l i n e o f q u es t i o n i n g t h a t has to do with what he
8 has discussed with h i s a t t o rn e y a s I am s u re you
9 wou l d .
1 Q I believe you t o l d us you a re a p a r t owner o f
11 a company t h a t owns a boa t ; i s th a t co r rec t?
12A That s c o r r e c t .
T4 13 Q You a re aware I assume your complain t s t t e ~
14in paragraph 6 t h a t you were t h e s o l e owner o f a b o a t i ng
15 and y ach t in g bus iness?
16A Does it s ay t h a t ?
17Q Which i s co r r ec t ?
18A Th a t i s c o r r e c t I own more t han one boat
19Q How many b o a t s ?
20A The company I own , so le ly owns a boa t in Ne w
21York. Okay ?
Q Ri g h t .
22A I own a s mal l p i ece o f an o th e r company th a t owns
23
an o t h e r boa t in the Caribbean . The company t h a t owns t h e24
b o a t in New York i s c a l l e d P i c a re sque .25
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1 Eder
2 Q I s t h a t the e a r bu s i ness ?
3 A But it a l s o owns a b o a t .
4 Q Does t he e a r business use the boa t ?
5 A No.
6 Q Where i s t he boa t in the Caribbean ?
7 A I to ld yo u I won t te ll yo u t h a t
8 Q o you own any pieces o f any o ther boa t ing
9 bus inesses?
10 A No
11Q How much money did Pi caresque make in it s boa t-
12 ing bus in ess i n 1 977 1978?
13 A Picaresque only came i n to bus iness in 1978 and
14 it has not earned any money o f f its boa t ing ve n tu re
15 Q What abou t the o ther boa t ing bus in e s s in the
16Ca r ibbea n t h a t yo u don t wan t to discu s s the l o ca t i o n o ~
17 how much ha s t h a t made ?
18A The company ?
19Q Yes
20A I don t know . Maybe th e company made f ifty
21thou s and l a s t yea r b u t I on l y own a s mall piece o f th a t
22comp any .
Q Yo u didn t de r i v e a ny income f r om t h a t ?23
A Ye s , a f ew do l l a r s , bu t I don t know how much24
Q No t much ?25
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Ede r
2 A Not much . Again we a re back to the que s t i o n
3 of what my f inances are , which could go to the In terna l
4 Reven ue Serv ice and t he re fo re , I don ' t wan t t o do t h a t
5 and I don ' t wan t t o l i e , bu t - -
6 Q I unders tand your pos ition , but when it say s
7 in par ag rap h 6 you were t he owne r a nd success fu l o p e ra t o r
8 o f a boat ing a nd yach t ing bu s i nes s , doe s t ha t re fe r to t he
9 bus ines s which made no money o r the bus iness wh i c h made
10some money? · Which bu s in e s s do e s t ha t r e fe r to t ha t wa s
11su ccess ful?
12A I f I am the so l e owner t ha t i s the bus ines s 1
13 t ha t i s the successfu l business . That would have to be
14Pi caresq ue o f New York .
5Q That made no money from the boat ing bus ines s?
16A -That ' s r i g h t .
17Q Do you con tend the a llega t i on in paragraph 6
18t ha t yo u we re the success fu l opera to r o f th i s bus ines s i s
19meant to re ad t ha t i n fac t it wa s a money-making bus iness ?
A20
No . The word success fu l does no t mean money-
21makin g .
Q Wha t do e s it mean?22
A t means if i s not unsucce s s f u l . t i s in23
busine s s and it i s opera t ing a nd it i s a succes s . I ce r -
24
t a in ly do n ' t wan t to dea l wi th th e t erm s or the def in i t io n25
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1 Ede r
2 o f the term succ e s s , bu t su c cess i s onlv co nnoted by
mos t l awyer s as being monetary . A sucGes s fu l perso n i s
4 not necessa ri l y a wea l t hy person.
5 Q In paragraph 7 o f your complaint it say s you
6 had a good reput a t io n fo r t r u th fu ln ess , worthiness an d
7 good cha r ac t e r . Which group o f peop l e held t ha t op i n i on
8 o f you?
9 A Out l aws .
10 Q So you mean , when you say a mong you r f r i end s
11 and bus iness assoc ia t es , in paragraph 7 , you mea n o the r
2peop le invo lved in v io l a t i ng t he mari juana law prev ious l y
3 held you in high e s t eem?
4A That i s co r re c t .
15Q Are yo u t a lk ing abo u t anybody e l s e ?
16A I ' m t a lk ing about people ou ts id e . o f t ha t , a s
17we l l
8Q o a r e t he peop l e t ha t h e ld t h i s opin ion o f
19you?
20] \ Outs ide t h e mar i juana bus i nes s1
Q Ins ide o r out s id e , would you t e ll us who it i s21
th a t you be lieve fe lt you h ad a good r epu t a t i o n fo r t r u th -
22fu lness , wor th iness and good cha r ac t e r ?
23
A Almost everyone I knew .24
Q Most o f the people yo u knew were in t he25
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Eder 74
2 mari juana bus ines s , I guess ; i s t h a t t rue?
3 A No, not most o f them. I would say - -
4 Q l lhat you a re r e a l l y complaining about in t h i s
• 5 case i s the l o ss o f f a i t h of the people in the mar i juana
6 bus iness who prev ious ly be l i eved you were an hones t o u t -
7 law and came to be l i eve , through the a r t i c l e
8 A That i s only p a r t o f it. The o ther p a r t i s
9 the people t h a t come in con tac t with me on an every day
10 bas i s I want it c l e a r t h a t no mat te r what my complaint
11 says , my complaint was drawn by my a t t o r n ey .
12Q Do you agree wi th i t ? I s it t rue?
13 A Yes, it i s t r u e bu t it i s not t he main t h r u s t
of my argument. The main t h r u s t o f my argument i s t h i s
15 man mal ic ious ly c a l l e d me a government informant and the
16soc ie ty in which we l i v e , a government informant i s a man
17who puts ano ther man in pr i son fo r himsel f and i s looked
18upon as a p i ranha , and t h a t i s the t h r u s t o f my argument
19here . All the r e s t o f it you a re j u s t k i l l i n g t ime he re
20by David Michaels going through the garbage . You are going• 21through sheer nugatory verb iage in an a t tempt to maybe
j u s t i f y your f ee , I d o n t know, but whatever t he po in t i s ,
you a re not touching on any o f the r e a l t h ings . The r e a l23
t h ing i s t h i s man mal ic ious ly a t tempted to h u r t me in p r i n t24
5and he did so with l i e s and t h a t i s what I am f i g h t i n g . He
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2
Eder
e l l s me I have to show f inanc ia l danages .
3 Q You are r e f e r r ing to your at torney?
4 A My at torney t e l l s me I have to show f i na nc i a l
• 5 damages. I am saying t ha t may be the case , but as th ings
6 s tand , it i s d i f f i c u l t fo r me to show f inanc ia l damages,
7 bu t it i s going to be very easy for me t o show I was
8 damaged soc i a l l y .
9 Q In fac t , i s n ' t it imposs ib le for you to show
10 f inanc ia l damage?
11 MR KAHN: Objec t ion .
12 A It s very easy for me to show f inanc ia l damage
13 with the magazine venture . I have one person, if he i s
14 w i l l i ng to l e t me use his name, wil l ing to s tep fo r th in
15 t h i s case , one person who i s w i l l i ng to s t a t e t ha t two days
r16 a f t e r th i s a r t i c l e appeared in The Vil lage Voice, he ca l led
17me up and t o ld me, Hey, Chic, fo rge t i t .
18Q So what you are t e l l i n g us i s i n f ac t t ha t you
19may o r may not be able to show f inanc ia l damages, bu t your
20rea l concern i s• 21
22
MR KAHN: Object ion . He al ready s t a t ed
he can show f inanc ia l damages.
23A The prime t h rus t i s no t f inanc ia l damage. The
24prime t h r u s t of my case i s I have been damaged on a s oc i a l
25l eve l and malic ious ly , through l i ab le , so we can save a l o t
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•
Eder 76
2 o f t ime. My case i s , t h i s i s what I assume discovery i s
3 a l l about and t ak ing a depos i t ion fo r discovery i s to
4 f ind out what I am s t a t ing . My case aga ins t Weberman my
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case agains t Weberman i s simply I stopped se l l i ng him
mari juana. I so ld Weberman mari juana for r e sa l e and so ld
t to him i n qua n t i t i e s for r e sa l e and I stopped s e l l i n g
him marijuana fo r re sa le in quant i ty and the re fore , he
malic ious ly a t tacked me in a newspaper and de l i be ra t e l y
l i ed and malic ious ly a t tacked me in th i s pub l i ca t ion and
I have been damaged by t h a t on a soc i a l l eve l as well as
a f inanc ia l l eve l .
Q I s n t t t r ue t ha t most o f the f inanc ia l l o sses
you are claiming are losses to your mari juana bus iness?
A I d o n t want to say most o r l e a s t o r anything .
I am saying I have been hur t i n the marijuana bus iness and
I have also been hur t in the magazine bus iness and also
been hur t in the opal bus iness and I am s t a t i ng t h a t i s
what i s going on here . I d o n t want to play any games.
To cont inue what I am t ry ing to say , Mr.
Michaels i s I fee l you are pu t t ing up a smoke screen . At
t h i s po in t , what we are dea l ing with i s the f a c t t h a t I have
been damaged. My content ion i s I have been damaged mal ic i -
ous ly by A J . Weberman s oc i a l l y primari ly and bus iness
secondar i ly .
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Eder 77
2 Do you want to deal wi th it based on t ha t
3 open and honest s tatement?
4 Q I wi l l dea l with the ques t ions . You dea l with
• 5 the answers and tha t i s the format for today, if t h a t i s
6 a l l r i gh t with you.
7 A Right on.
8 Q I want to show you an e xh ib i t at tached to your
9 p l a i n t i f f s complaint in t h i s ac t ion , t h a t be ing a photo-
10 copy o f The Vil lage Voice concerning an a r t i c l e . My ques-
11 t ion i s whether t h i s in fac t i s the a r t i c l e you a re com-
12 p la in ing about?
13 A Yes, t ha t i s it.
14 Q Does it say within t ha t a r t i c l e t h a t you were
15 a DEA informant?
16 A I bel ieve the words ·are high l eve l EDA ...
17MR KAHN: I objec t to any ques t ions wi th-
18 ou t showing him a copy o f the a r t i c l e , so we know what
19you a re t a lk ing about .
20A That s the a r t i c l e . Now, it s r i g h t here .
21Go ahead, what i s your ques t ion?
22
Q It says within the a r t i c l e you were a DEA in -
formant?23
24A No, it doe s n t . It says based on the t es t imony
25o f Chic Eder, a high l eve l informant .
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Ede r 78
Q Were you o r were you not in the l i m i te d work
with th a t agency which you have descr ibe d to us a high
l e ve l info rmant?
A Aga in a t such t ime as you ques t ion a DEA age n t
with regard t o what t h e i r l eve l s a re you might be ab l e to
a s c e r t a i n whethe r t i s a h i g h l eve l o r low l eve l . Okay ?
Q Did you not t e l l us before t h a t s e c ur i t y o f
t he i r personnel and th e r in fo rmat ion was a very impo r t a n t
pr io r i t y fo r t h a t agency?
A Yes I s t a t e d t ha t the on ly two th ings t hey
were more concerned with th a n a r r e s t and conv ic t ion .we re
those two fac to rs . Aga in a s to whether t i s a high l eve l
DEA info r man t I a m no t argu ing the po i n t . I did do b u s i -
ness with the Drug Enfo rcemen t Admin is t ra t io n and I am no t
arguing t ha t po i n t a t a l l .
; -Q You o i i ~ in fac t ?
A Of cour s e I have . The po i n t i s now th e poin t
you are b e l ab o r ing i s high l eve l . I have a n swered t h e ques -
t i o n t h a t I c a nnot s t a t e wha t l eve l I was . V0 u w ll h ave
to ask t he DEA . Okay?
Q Fine . Yvhere in t h a t a r t i c l e do you f ind an
all ega t ion th a t you r ece ive d f in anc i a l rewards fo r in fo rming
o n Tom Fo rcade ? Would yo u po i n t out the place in th a t
a r t i c l e wh ere t i s s t a t e d and i mp l e d ?
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Eder 79
2 A It s t a t e s it nega t ive ly . There i s an in fe rence .
3 By use of informant , there i s i n f e r r e d in t ha t the f ac t o f
4 payment by the government.
·5 Q In fac t , monetary payment? In fac t , when you
6 were a DE informant , what you received by way of considera-
7 t ion was your re lease from j a i l ; i s t ha t not t rue?
8 A That i s not t r ue . What I received was a quash-
9 ing o f a case aga ins t me.
1Q ~ t f inanc ia l reward?
11A
Not f i na nc i a l .
12Q In f ac t , you know in formants are also rewarded
13in nonf inanc ia l ways?
14A No ques t ion about it l\That we are s ta t ing ,
15again , i s i n f e r r e d in t ha t i s the payment from the govern-
ment.16
17Q Simply by use of t he word informant ?
18A Yes. It i s my con ten t ion t h a t i s i n f e r r e d by ·
19a grea te r number of people .
20Q In fac t , you never gave the government any
f a l se informat ion on Tom Forcade because you never gave• 21
them any informat ion on Tom Forcade; i s t ha t cor rec t?
22A Th a t s correc t .
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Q Where in t h a t a r t i c l e do you f ind any i n fe rence
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1 Eder 8 0
2 A Excuse me Le t me t r y t h i s aga in .
3 Aga in , you a re g e t t i n g cu te , and I am not
4 t a lk ing abou t your face . It says h ere in 1977 a Fe dera l
5 grand ju r y in Brooklyn b egan a n in ves t i ga t i on c o n c e rning
6 Tom Forcade . That p a r t o f it ; t ha t i s a quote and th a t
7 p a r t o f it has noth ing to do with me , w ~ t h r th e y s t a r t e d
8 a n in ves t i ga t ion o r not i s no t none o f my bus i ne ss .
9 Q Do you know whether th a t i s t rue ?
10 A No , I don t know whether th a t i s t rue . The
11 ne x t p a r t says , Base d on t e s t imo ny o f Chic Eder . . • , I
12 am not su re of the l ega l d e f i n i t i o n o f le ga l t e s t im ony
13 bu t I know wha t p e ople b e l i ev e tes t imony i s and t es t imony
14 i s t h a t yo u s wear o r you give in fo rma t i o n aga inst some -
I
15body You t e s t i f y aga in s t someone and I am s t a t i n g t h a t
16ca tegor i ca l l y , a t no t ime have I ever t e s t i f i e d fo r ·a
17g r and j u ry in New York o r fo r t h a t mat te r , t o t he b e s t o f
18my knowle dge , anywhere . Okay? So t h a t i s my co n te n t io n .
19You a r e t ry ing to dea l w ith a h i gh l eve l DE informa n t and
20I wan t to d e a l with t he c r ux o f t he case , which i s based o n
- 21the tes t imony o f Chic Eder .
22
You ' re s t a t i n g - - I 'm say ing in co u r t - - I want
23t o s t a t e in cour t t ha t Webe rman h as sa id t ha t I have give n
24t e s t imony in a Brook l yn Fede ra l grand ju ry in 1977 and I
25am s t a t i n g t h a t i s the b a s i s o f my case , t ha t I h a ve no t
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Eder Jgiven test imony aga ins t Forcade o r anybody e l se o r any
3 grand jury o r any o ther p lace . So i you want to - - My
4 ques t ion to you i s , have we dea l t with high l eve l DEA in -
•5 formant?
6 Q My ques t ion to you, s i r , i s whether the a l l ega -
7 t ion of paragraph 10 b) o f your complaint i s t rue? That
8 a l l ega t ion says the a r t i c l e inc luded, a t l e a s t by t he
9 unders tanding of a reader , tha t you l a id a fa l se charge .
10 So I am asking you where in the a r t i c l e do you f ind any
11 a l lega t ion of f a l s i t y?
12 MR KAHN: Excuse me - -
13 A I did not g ive any tes t imony, so we may have
l4 made an e r ro r in t ha t with regard to fa lse t es t imony. I
15 haven t given any t es t imony.
16 MR KAHN: You are asking Mr. Eder to
17address ce r t a i n th ings
18MR MICHAELS: I am asking i his com-
19p l a i n t i s t r ue and - -
20MR KAHN: I t h ink h i s answer i s yes .
Off the record
•
21
Discussion o f f the r ecord . )
22
MR MICHAELS: Back on the record .23
Q Paragraph lO b) of the complaint says t h a t the24
25reasonable in fe rence from the a r t i c l e you a re complaining
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Eder
inubou t was t h a t yo u l a id a f a l s e info r ma t ion
3 Forcade . I s t ha t you r pos i t i on today o r i s it you r pos i
4 t i on t hat the in fe rence here t h a t you are comp l a i nin g o f ,
5 t ha t you gave any informa t i on , true o r fa l s e - -
6 A It should be both .
7 Q Where do you f ind any in ference f r om t he
8 a r t i c l e t h a t you gave f a l se informat ion?
9 A I d o n t .
10 Q I m sorry?
11 A But I th ink my a t to rney does .
12 Off the r e cord .
13 (Discussion o f f the re cord.)
14 MR . KAHN : Back on the record .
15A I don ' t know wha t i s go ing on , whe t h e r it
16should be fa l s ·e in fo rmat ion , using the t e rm as he i s
17using it and i n fo rma t ion as opposed to a n in<lictment i n
18a cr imina l proceed in g . I don ' t kn ow wh e th e r he i s do ing
19t ha t .
20MR. AHN : I am i nd ica t ing 'i:he te rm us e d
e 21
22
in those two paragra phs, lO b ) and (c) , are used as
a term o f a r t to desc r ibe a l ega l proceed i ng i nvo lv -
23ing an inve s t i ga t ion , an d he i s no t qual i f i e d to
discuss it as a term o f a r t .24
MR MICHAELS : I s the word f a l se a t e r m25
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Eder 83
2 of a r t?
3 MR. KAHN: Yes, the word fa l se , in
4 connect ion with t he cr iminal informat ion , i s a te rm
• 5 o f a r t .
6 MR. MICHAELS: What do you def ine t h a t
7 to mean, fo r the purposes of subparagraph lO b)?
8 MR Y AHN: I am suggest ing t ha t means
9 tha t the in fe rences from t h i s a r t i c l e are t h a t he
10 went to a grand ju ry and s t imula ted an informat ion
11 o f Forcade for some cr iminal ac t iv i ty for which t he
12grand ju ry was s i t t i ng ; and the impl ica t ion through-
13 out the a r t i c l e was t ha t any charges he might have
14 l eve led aga ins t Forcade would have been fa l se and
15therefore he placed a fa l se information a ga ins t
16Forcade.
17MR MICHAELS: Where in the a r t i c l e do
18you f ind t he .ba s i s for the infe rences? What word
19suggests f a l s i t y?
20MR. KAHN: The en t i r e paragraph in which• 21
tha t s ta tement appears
Off the record .
22
Discussion o f f the record . )23
THE WITNESS: On the record . y con-24
t en t ion i s t h a t I have a t no t ime t e s t i f i ed a ga ins t25
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1 Eder 84
2 Forcade in any th ing much l e s s than a Brooklyn grand
3 j u ry . My a t to rney may o r may not be mis taken in t he
4 use o f the term f a l s e . t has nothing to do with
5 my compla in t . My complain t i s , I did not t e s t i f y a t
6 a l l and he has c la imed t h a t I have t e s t i f i e d and t h a t
7 i s where the fa l seness l i e s , as f a r as I am concerned .
8 BY MR MICHAELS:
9 Q Your complain t says in paragraph lO(d) , your
10 complain t inc ludes a s ta tement t h a t the a r t i c l e you compla in
11 about has , as one o f its reasonab le i n fe rences fo r t he
12 average r eader , t h a t you were r espons ib le fo r caus ing an
13 a i r p l an e crash in which one Jack Combs
14 A t d o es n ' t say t h a t in the a r t i c l e . There i s
15 j u s t a Jack, not Combs At t h a t t ime , my con ten t ion i s ,
16Mr Weberman did· not know t he l a s t name He c e r t a i n l y
17d i d n ' t know where Jack crashed .
18Q When you say in your compla in t t h a t the a r t i c l e
19t h a t you are compla ining about says t ha t you caused the
2plane crash , I am ask ing where in the a r t i c l e do you f ind
21t h a t ?
22
A t i s impl ied .
MR KAHN: I w i l l answer t h a t fo r him23
24because t he a r t i c l e itself i s r i p e with i n f e r en ces .
25Tom Forcade was t h e o b j ec t o f var ious forms o f
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Eder 85
2 government harassment and persecut ion and a l l aspects
3 of government tha t had anything to do with the law
4 enforcement and l i nk ing Mr. Eder s name to the EDA
5 in the sense he was a l l eged ly respons ib le for in -
6 s t i t u t i n g an inves t iga t ion in t e s t i fy ing aga ins t
7 him, Mr. Forcade, a t the grand jury and l ink ing his
8 associa t ion to the DEA to the inser t ion of the
9 a r t i c l e tha t Tom to ld Mr. Weberman t h a t he be l ieved
10 the DEA Special Operat ions Divis ion may have sabotaged
11 Jack s a i r c r a f t , would sugges t to an average reade r ,
12 reading the en t i r e a r t i c l e f a i r l y , t ha t Mr. Eder was
13 somehow t i ed in to th i s and responsib le for t h i s .
14Q The Jack i s Jack someone else?
15A Ask him. I d i d n t wri te the a r t i c l e , he did .
16Q Did you ever have any contac t with DEA s Specia l
17Operat ions Divis ion?
18A No, I have never had any contac t , except wi th
19one person in DEA
20Q Who i s tha t?• 21A I d o n t remember his name but I ce r t a in ly wi l l
ca l l the DEA and f ind out about t before the case c loses .
22Do you know?
23
Q You mean to say you gave - -24
A His name i s Don. One primary person with whom25
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•
Eder 87
2 for tha t . Going on beyond t h i s , I wi l l s t a r t a t the be-
3 ginning of the paragraph and th i s i s one paragraph.
4 In 1977, a Federa l grand jury in Brooklyn began
5 an i nves t iga t ion concerning Tom Forcade, based on the t e s -
6 t imony of Chic Eder , a high l eve l DEA who has been charac -
7 t e r ized as Mr. Mari juana in severa l magazine a r t i c l e s . The
3 very next sentence , The pressu re began to bu i ld and Tom
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
s t a r t ed going i n to per iods o f extreme depress ion . He would
assume a f e t a l pos i t i on , cover himself with a shee t , and
remain l i ke t ha t for days .
t goes on to s t a t e he a t one point , ' ' he took
an overdose o f Qualudes and stumbled over to Gabrie l Schang'
apartment where he co l l apsed . Gabrie l and her f r iend , .
Jim Turgus, who worked in Tom's book s to r e across from
Gabrie l ' s apar tment , took him to Bel levue where his
stomach was pumped.
This i s s t a t ed i n one paragraph. That my
test imony - - I am reading from t h i s paragraph t h a t my
test imony was in f ac t d i r ec t ly r espons ib le for Tom's
death .
Q That i s the paragraph t ha t you f ind leads the
reader to bel ieve you were d i rec t l y r espons ib le fo r his
death?.
A That i s correc t .
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1 Ede r
2 Q Paragraph 17, you s ta t e th a t you were i n ju r e d
3 t o the sum o f 1 mil l ion .
4 How do you compu te t ha t?
5 A Because I assume the o ne hundre d t ho usand t h a t
6 fe l low wa s w i l l in g to pu t in to my magazine would have made
7 a t l eas t 1 mi l l i o n by the end o f t he yea r .
8 Q That i s the bas i s fo r th a t ca l cu l a t io n?
9 A Tha t s r i gh t .
10 Q Wha t makes you th ink t ha t Mr . Ryan ,· Mis s
11 Par t r idge , Mr . Mu rdoch and The Vil lage Vo i ce , Inc . were
12 so l e l y mot iv a te d by animosi ty and ha t re d fo r you? P ar a -
13 graph 21.
14 A We ll, I am not say ing t h a t . I do n t know wha t
15 my lawyer wrote h e re . My sta temen t i s - -
16 MR . KAHN : Off the reco rd .
17Discuss ion o f f the r e cord . )
18R . I AHN : Back on the record .
19A My s ta t em e n t i s t h a t A. J . Weberman wa s
20mo tiva ted by an imosi ty and ha t red fo r the p l a i n t i f f a nd
21I f ee l the o t he r defendant s in the c ase had , the o the r
22
defendants in the c as e did not ch eck the v e ra c i t y o f A. J .
23Weberman s s to ry and they have, based o n A. J . Weberrnan s
24repu t a t ion in the world o f j ou rna l i sm o r in t he l i t e r a ry
25wor ld and on c e r t a in o th e r t h i ng s tha t a r e wide ly known
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l
2
Eder
regard to his ~n the publ i sh ing i ndus t ry , with
3 and with regard to his j ou rna l i s t i c c r ed ib i l i t y , they
4 should have checked A. J Weberman ext remely c lose be fo re
•5 pr in t ing anything t ha t A. J . Weberman might have submit ted .
6 Q Would you now withdraw the a l l ega t ion o f pa ra -
7 graph 21 tha t t he o the r defendants , The Vil lage Voice, Inc . ,
8 Ryan and Par t r idge and Murdoch were so le ly motivated by
9 animosi ty and ha t red fo r you and t h e i r sole purpose fo r
1 publ i sh ing was to i n ju r e you and cause dis t ress?
11 MR KAHN: The response to the ques t ion
12 i s no.
13 Off the r ecord .
14 Discuss ion of f the record . )
15MR MICHAELS: Back on the r ecord .
16Q Whether in f ac t the a l l e ga t ion o f paragraph 21
17of the· complaint i s tended to r e l a t e only to the defendant
18Weberman or whether you wou].d amend it to dele te the
19a l l ega t ion o f mal ic ious an imosi ty and hatred presented by
2the o ther defendants , t ha t i s the quest ion .
•
21A Yes, I would l i ke to amend my s ta tement .
Q You mean the complaint?
23A Amend t h i s complaint so paragraph 21 only dea l s
with the defendant Weberman in t h i s case . I m sor ry , t he re24
i s an e r ro r i n th i s case and the e r ro r i s mine for no t25
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1Eder
2having proper ly communicated t h i s to my a ttorne y .
3th ink Weberman acted in t h i s manner.
4I f e e l in paragraph 22 - -
5MR KAHN:
Offthe record .
6Di s cuss ion o f f the r e c o rd . )
7 R KAHN: On the r ecord .
8THE WITNESS: Th ere seems to
9 be a l a ck o f commun i c a t i on on my p a r t with my
10 a t t orney.
11 On paragraph 21, I do not hones t ly
12 be l i eve t h a t the defendants were so le ly mot iva ted
13 by mal ic ious animosi ty and ha t red .
14 I be l ieve A. J . We be rman i s t he s i ng le
15 defendan t who was mot iva ted by mal ic ious an imos i ty
16 a nd ha t red . The r e s t o f paragraph 21 should only
17 read A J . Weberrnan. I don ' t h o n es t ly be lieve t h e re
18 was a ny consp i racy a foo t ,
19 I d o n ' t th ink Weberrnan went to thes e
20 peop le a t The Vi l l age Voice and sa i d , 11 Le t s ge t
21 Chic Eder . And I t h in k he went to The Vi l l age
22
Voice and so ld them on t h i s a r t i c l e an d happened
23 to get them to go along with h i s program to
24mal ic ious ly ge t me in pr i n t .
25
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Eder 91
2 My argument i s a t t h i s po in t t h a t I would
3 l i ke to make a s ta tement for . the record , on paragraph
4 21: It i s only A. J . Weberman whose mot ivat ion was
•5 th i s .
6 On paragraph 22 I am going to ask my
7 a t to rney , on paragraphs 22 and 23 to de le t e the
8 conspiracy simply because I d o n t be l ieve a con-
9 spi racy did in f ac t e x i s t .
1 My at torney i s concerned with the f ac t
11 t ha t I say t h i s on the record and tha t some judge
12 might look a t t ha t and say t ha t if he i s so wi l l i ng
13 to amend · ha t i s going on here . What i s going on
14 here i s the mistake i s mine. I al lowed t h i s to go
15 i n to the cour t in th i s manner without having read
16it. I d o n t bel ieve 22 and 23 are va l id . My a t to rney
17did a t tha t t ime. Since we went in the o ther room
18and discussed it I don t . He still fee l s the re may
19have been something in t ha t area , but I fee l if I
20l eave t h i s complaint as it s tands , Mr. Michae l s
•21
22
be ing a l awyer wi l l make a big i s sue ou t o f t h i s
r a the r than what the r ea l i s sue i s . lve gave him an
i s sue t h a t a l lows it to be clouded. I d o n t want to23
24
deal wi th t ha t . I want to change paragraph 21 to
25read so le ly A. J . Weberman and 22 and 23 I want to I
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Eder 92
2 de le te . That i s a l l I am saying . \3 Q t may be somewhat i r r egu la r , so l e t me commend
4 you for answering candid ly .and for allowing us to c l a r i fy
•5 t h i s .
6 When I prev ious ly inqu i red to your a t to rney
7 what the complaint was about , he t o l d me he was unwi l l ing
8 to answer the ques t ion and t ha t we would have to wai t u n t i l
9 today to f ind out .
1 I commend you t ha t when it was brought to your
11 a t t e n t ion , tha t you c or r e c t it so we can concentra te on
12 the rea l i s sue .
13 A I d o n t want to cloud the rea l case wi th a
l4 fa l se case.
15 Q n paragraph 24 it s t a t e s you sus ta ined ac tua l
16damages of a mil l ion do l l a r s ask fo r a quar t e r of a mil l ion
17in puni t ive damages because o f t he conspiracy between A. J .
18h'eberman and The Vil lage Voice and. the o ther defendants .
19Would it be your s ta tement t ha t in f ac t p a ra -
20graph 24 therefore would have to be amended a lso?
•
21A Paragraph 24 has nothing to do with the con-
22
sp i racy .
23Q Is t ha t the same 1 mil l ion you were t e l l i n g
us about before t ha t you hoped and expected would be p ro -24
25duced from the 100,000 through the publ i sh ing?
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193
2 A No, t h i s i s i n ju r y a nd damage .
3 Q ow did you compute the 1 mi l l i on in p a rag raph
4 24 ?
5 A One m il l io n i s based on the mil l ion I would
6 have made with t h e magaz i ne , and the o th e r one i s d amages .
7 That i s wha t we are t a lk ing about in pa rag raph 24 .
8 Q Excuse me , I am n o t c l ea r abo u t wh a t your
9 answer i s .
10 The mi l l i o n d o l l a r s t h a t a re asked .fo r ~
11 paragraph 17 you have t o l d us was money yo u would have
12 ho pe d to make f rom a magazi ne ven ture wh i ch was e f f e c t i ve ly
13 k i l l e d by the pu b l i c a t i o n o f t h i s a r t i c l e ?
14 A Th a t s c o r r e c t .
15 Q The mi l l i o n do l l a r s on paragraph 24 , wha t
16 mi l l i o n d o l la r s i s it t h a t you a c tua l ly lo s t t h e r s ; i s it
17the same?
18A The re a re two mi l l io ns o n paragraph 24.
19Q I am ta lk ing abou t th e a c tua l damage a l l ega t i on ,
20not t he pun i t i v e a l l e 0 a t i o n .
21A The f i r s t a c t u a l l y wa s the m i l l i o n d o l l a r s I
22
assume d I wou ld h ave made wi t h the magazine and no t l o s t
t he 100 , 000 i n v es to r .23
24Q That i s fo r paragraph 17 o r 24 o r are they t he
25s ame? I am t r y i n g to c l a r i f y i it i s t he same mi l l i o n
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3
do l l a rs o r a d i f f e r e n t damage you sus ta ined?
A The same one.
4 MR KAHN : Off the record .
5 Di scuss ion o f f the record . )
6 MR. MICHAELS : a ~ k on the r ecord .
7 Q In l i ne with what you have t o ld us to c l a r i f y
8 the accuracy o f t he compla in t wo uld I be c or r e c t in b e -
9 l i ev ing you wou ld a l s o wish to make c e r t a in changes w i th in
10 paragraph 6 which charges t h a t each o f the d e fendan t s d id
unlawfu l ly plan p l o t and consp i re between themse lves to
12 publ i sh f a l s e l i a b l e and defamatory sta tem e nt s? I s t
13 each o f the defendants t h a t unlawful ly consp re d to do
14 t ha t o r only Mr . Weberman?
15A Paragraph 6?
16Q Twenty-six , I am so r ry .
7 A Twenty-s ix . I th ink 26 has to remain .
18 MR . KAHN: Off the record .
19Discuss ion o f f the record . )
20MR . KAHN : On the record .
21Th e answe r to the ques t ion i s no .
2
A We do no t wish to change t fo r t h i s re a son .
Te l l him t he reason.23
24
25
MR . KAHN: Because our presen t b e l i e f
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2 in f ac t pub l i sh , in The Vil lage Voice, the f a l se ,
3 malicious s ta tement .
4 Q Referr ing again to paragraph 26; i s it your
•5 be l i e f tha t each o f the o ther defendants consp i red bet1veen
6 themselves to i n t en t i ona l l y pub l i sh fa l se information?
7 A I f you a re asking me whether I be l ieve they
s s a t down with A. J . Weberman and sa id , Let ' s go ge t th i s
9 guy, i I bel ieved t h a t , I thought
1 Q ·You do be l i eve the word conspiracy in para -
11 graph 26?
12A However, i my a t to rney sa id , i they s a t down
3 with Weberman and t a lked with Weberman in regard to t h i s
14and checked it and did not check it tha t i s a l awyer ' s
5argument and I wi l l l e t t he lawyers argue. My po in t i s - -
16I want it c l ea r . This i s my depos i t ion here - - I f ee l the
17o ther defendants I f ee l A. J . Weberman has mal ic ious ly
18at tempted to a t t ack me in t h i s s i t ua t i on and t hese people
19e i the r ac t ive ly
2Q You mean the o the r defendants?
•
21
22
A The o ther defendants in the case e i t he r
ac t ive ly o r pass ive ly conspi red to go along with his pro-
gram, to al low - - 3
Q Are you c la iming they knew the informat ion was24
fa l se or . they f i l ~ d · t o check w h ~ n they should have?25
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Eder r ; ; 6·
/A What I am say ing here -- Off the re cord .
Discuss ion o f f the record . )
MR MICHAELS: Back on the r ec ord .
Q Ar e you c la iming t ha t The Vil lage Voice con-
sp i red to
MR KAHN: The c la im i s - -
MR MICHAELS: Unl e s s you a re going on
under oa th , I ha ve to ask the wi tness .
A I can t say under oath I know they con s p i r e d
in the s e nse o f the word.I
know they consp i re d t o be - -
What I am s a ying i s , my fe e l i n g i n h e re n t in t h i s p a ra graph
26 i s the f a c t t h a t they did pub l i sh t h i s i n fo rma t i o n and
if they d i d n t know t h a t it was fa l s e , they sh ould have
known it was f a l s e so they s hould a t l eas t , s h ould have
checked it p r i o r to having it publ i shed.
Q Thank you.
A Nex t ?
Q i·mere do you f ind in the a r t i c l e publ i sh e d by
The V i l l age Voice t h a t t h is whole c as e conc e rns - - r
do you f ir id t he s t a t e me n t o r impl ic a t i on t ha t you commit t ed
pe r ju ry b e fo r e a g ra nd j u ry , a s a l l eged in Ar t i c l e 28?
A I d o n t f ind t h a t .
Q Wh e re do you f ind the a l l ega t i o n t h a t you con -
s p i red to murder Forcade s f r i e nd J a ck?
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Eiler 97
2 A I th ink t ha t i s inheren t in the r e . We have I3 answered t h a t ques t io n .
4
5
6
Q Wh ere do you f ind the a llega t ion th a t you con -
sp i red to commit a burg la ry a t Forcade s a par tment?
A Same t h ing .
I7 Q Where do you f ind in t h i s a r t i c l e a ny accusa -
8 t i o n t ha t you committed any crime?
9 Paragraph 29 o f t he comp l a i n t r e f e r s t o a n
10 a l l ega t ion wi t h i n the a r t i c l e o f you r cr imina l conduct a nd
11 I am ask ing you what words in t he a r t i c le seem to you to
12 be i nd ica t ive o f an accusa t ion t ha t you committed a c r ime ?
13 A That i s i n h e r en t in t h e re , when he i s t a l k i n g
14 abou t me a s being Mr . - - F i r s t o f a l l , I see it I can
15 ag r ee with t h a t . As soon as he t a lks abou t me be i ng Mr .
16 Marij ua na , the magazine a r t i c l e , with regard to t h a t , d e a l t
17with t ha t cr imina l conduct .
18Q In o t h e r words , t he cr imina l conduct p h ra se
19wi t h i n paragraph 29 r e f e r s to mari juana ve ntu re s and no t
20t o a ny a l l e ga t i o n in t h e s to r y t h a t you commit te d a pe r j u r y
21be fore a grand j u ry , c a used the c r a s h o f an a i rp l a ne ,
22murder o r burg la ry o r any th ing e l s e ?
MR KAHN : Off t he r e cord .23
Discu s s ion o f f the record .24
A On the r ecord . It s t a t e s in t h i s a r t i c l e th a t -25
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1 Eder 98
2 The a r t i c l e put s me and the DEA as synonymous . The
3 a r t i c l e fu r t h e r s t a t e s t h a t Weberman be l ieved the DEA
4 burgled Forcade ' s apartmen t and t he DEA caus e d the d e a th
5 of J ack . So if I am in f a c t , if I am seen as be ing p a r t
6 o f the DEA then the i n f e rence i s I a l s o was p a r t o f th a t
7 Q Where it says in paragraph 29 th a t the accusa -
8 t i ons o f cr imina l conduct t h a t you i n f e r from t he a r t i c l e
9 were publ i shed by the d e f e ndan ts - - I be l i eve the word
10 should · rea d mal ice , in t h a t they we re publi shed with
11 k n o w l e g ~ of t h e i r f a l s i t y o r se r ious doubts as to t h e i r
12 t r u th . Do you i n t end to a l l e g e t h a t The Vil lage Voice,
13 Ryan Murdoch and Par t r idge h ave ac tua l mal ice a nd knew
14 t he s ta tements were f a l s e o r had se r ious doubts as to
15 t h e i r t ru th?
16A Yes I mean t h a t p a rt Yes t h a t i s d e f i n i t e .
17Q As a r e s u l t o f t h i s a r t i c l e you c la im in para -
18 graph 30 t ha t you were he ld up a nd expo s ed to pu b l i c con -
19temp t
20 Are you speak ing about the a r t i c le itself o r
2about some o ther expos ure to pub l ic contempt and scorn and
r i d i c u l e t h a t resu lted from the a r t i c l e ?
22
23A That i s wha t I am t a lk ing ahout .
24Q Do you me an by t h i s a r t i c l e o r by something
25e l s e t h a t r e su l t e d from the a r t i c l e ?
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Eder 99
2 A I don t know what yo u a re t a l k i n g abo u t .
Q I will rephrase t h e que st ion .
4 Were you say ing in paragraph 30 t h a t you wer e
5 h e l d up a n d e xposed t o pub l i c contempt , scorn and r i d i c u l e ?
6 Do yo u mean by the pub lic a t i o n o f t h i s a r t i c l e o r do you
7 mea n t he p u b l i ca t i o n o f t h i s a r t i c l e caused some o th e r
8 humi l ia t ing even t to occur and caused p eople to s c o r n and
9 condemn you ?
10 A The l a t t e r . The publ i c a t i o n o f t h e art i c l e
ca usedit
12 Q From whom did con t empt and scorn and r i d i c u l e
13come ?
14 A My con temporar ies ; my p ee r s .
15 Q Was th e r e any p a r t i c u l a r perso n t h a t expresse d
16sco rn contempt and r i d i cu l e , b e s ide s the ones you h ave
17a l r ead y t o ld us abo u t ?
18A Numero us people . Enough s o t h i s i s a v a l id
19p arag raph . Maybe t en f i ft e e n twen ty p e o p le .
20Q Could yo u g i ve us t h e n a mes t h a t e xp r e s se d t h a t ?
2A Here in New York Ci ty?
22
Q Anyw h e r e .
A
23Yes . I can g ive you names right away , wi thou t
any t roub l e . Char l es B Klein Mr . John F a r r e l l , Caro l24
25Tacher , an d given t ime , I wi ll come up wi th a list o f th e s e
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1 Ec ler G J2 peop l e . At t he t ime o f our t r i a l , we w il l s u h p o ~ n a nd
pu t t h es e peopl e on the s tand a nd you wi l l be ab l e to
4 c ross examine them , Mr . Michaels .
5 Q In the same paragraph you c l a im you su f f e red
6 grave and i r r epu t ab le i n j u ry a nd s u ff e red grea t emot iona l
7 d i s t r e s s and angu ish .
8 Can yo u t e ll us to wha t ex ten t you have s u f f e red
9 A Well, y e s . I don t have any sca l e fo r psych i c
10· dama ge .
11Q
Have you found it necessary t o see med i ca l
12o r psych ia t r i c t reatme nt?
13A No .
14 Q You are s ~ e k i n g th e n about the i n j u ry to you r
5fee l i n gs?
16A My emo t ions . Emotional d i s t.re s s ano anguis h .
7That paragraph s tand s .
18Q l he grave a nd i r r e pu tab l e i n j u ry to your p ro -
19f es s ion a l houor t h a t you speak o f in t h a t paragraph i s
20t ha t i n your profe ss ion as a n out law?
21A In my p ro fess ion a s a n ou t l aw and wou ld -be
22
maga zine publ ic a t i o n as we ll as any o the r ven tu re s I mi gh t
be i n .23
Q Paragraph 31 , again , ask s fo r 1 million in24
25ac tua l damages a nd a f urthe r mil l ion in pun i t i v e damages .
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1 Eder 101
2 I s t ha t the same mil l ion dol la r s tha t you l o s t o r i s th i s
3 a n a l l e ga t ion tha t you l o s t a n add i t iona l mi l l ion?
4 A One mil l ion i s f ine with me .
5 Q t i s the same mil l ion do l l a r s?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Fine . Par a graph 36 aga in claims 1 mi llio n
8 i n ac tua l damages and 1 mil l ion in puni t i v e damages .
9 I s it the same mil l ion t h a t we have a lready
10heard about?
11A
Are we padding t h i s b i l l ? Because if we a r e
12th i s b i l l i s a mil l ion . o we have to ? t i s the s ame
13mi l l i o n .
14 Q At paragraph 38 where you s t a t e t h a t th e de-
15fendants acted in a v ic ious malic ious and in t en t i ona l
16manner wi t h the so le purpose o f i n ju r ing you, did you mean
17t ha t to app ly to a l l defe nd an t s o r only defendan t Weberman ?
18A I th i nk f o r th e t ime being we wil l l e t it app ly
19to a l l defendants u n t i l such t ime - - we wil l a l l ow th a t
20because I th ink tha t might have been v ic ious mal ic iou s
21and in t en t i ona l , s in ce my b e l i e f i s they didn ' t have t o
a l l ow t ha t to be p r i n t e d and by a llowing t ha t to be p r in te d
22they ac ted in a v ic ious and malicious and in t e n t iona l
23
manne r .24
Q In paragraph 39, where you r eques t pun i t i v e25
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Eder 102
2 damages in the amount o f 3 mil lion i s t ha t dup l i ca t ion
o f the previous claims for mo ney o r i s t ha t a se pa r a t e
4 claim ?
5 MR . KAIIN : That i s a separa te cla im .
6 A That i s a sepa ra te c la im my lawyer says .
7 Q How was t h a t f igure computed ?
8 MR . KAHN : Do you want it on t h e record ?
9 MR . MICHAELS: Yes .
10 MR KAHN: The f i g ure for pun i t i ve
damages does n t have to be computed .
12Q Mr . Eder , have you given var ious in te rv iews
13to repor t e rs concerni ng your h i s to ry as a n outlaw?
4 A Yes.
15Q Have you done t h a t with the knowledge th a t it
16would resu lt in pub l i ca t ion o f t h a t . h i s to ry?
A Yes .17
18Q In f a c t haven t you sought the title and
19i den t i f i ed y o u r se l f as Mr . Marijuana ?
20A No I h ave not i d e n t i f i e d myse l f as Mr .
Mari juana .21
Q Have yo u ever been ca l l ed t h a t in p r in t t h a t
22you know of?
23
A Yes, I have been ca lled ~ l t in p r in t .24
Q Were you ca l led tha t in pr in t by repor te r s th a t25
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1 Eder 103
2 yo u h a d give n informa t i o n to vo l un t a r ily ?
3 A No I d o n t b e lieve s o, unless Goldma n may
4 ha ve ca l l e d me t h a t a t some t ime, bu t I d o n t t h in k s o .
5 Q Yo u have appear e d o n t he f ron t page o f New
6 York Magazi ne?
7 A I wa s a cove r boy
8 Q I s n t it t r u e your r ep u t a t i o n a s a n out law
9 produced pub l i c i t y you f e l t was ben e f i c i a l to you ?
1A Mos t d e f i n i te ly .
11 Q I s n t it t r u e you have admit ted many t imes
12 fo r publ i c a t i o n , your i nvo lvemen t as a n ou t law in mari j uana
13 smugg l ing v e n tu re s?
14 A No , th a t i s not t r ue.
15 Q You hav e spoken o u t abou t you r f ee l i n g s abou t
16 the marij uana l aws fo r p u b l i c a t i o n purposes ?
17A Mo s t d e f i n i t e l y .
18 Q Yo u have done s o with t h e i dea o f h e lp ing to
19 i n f lu en ce the pub l i c to take a more ra t i ona l view wi th r e -
20gard to the l aw ; i s n t t h a t c or r e c t?
21A I wi l l agree w ith th a t -.
22
Q Did you eve r se ll phone f raud d e v ic e s?
A Yes3
Q How many t imes ?24
25A How many t imes d i d I s e l l them?
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Eder 1 4
2 Q Yes .
3
4
A Twen ty , f i f t y . Fi f t y i s a good f igure , a p-
proximate ly .J
5 Q Did y ou eve r wa rn smugg l e rs abo u t Coast Guard
6 in ves tiga tions in orde r t o he lp them evade capture ?
7 A That s correc t .
8 Q How many t i mes ?
9 A Every time I ever go t the in fo rmat ion .
10 Q How many t imes might t h a t be , approximate ly?
11 A At l eas t t e n .
12Q I s it true you were n ame d and i ndic t ed as co -
13 cons p i r a to r in a recen t a r re s t o f approximately t e n perso ns
14 in New J e rsey on drug charges?
15A Tha t i s no t t rue , to my know l e dge .
16Q Have you eve r be en n amed and in d i c ted as co -
7consp i ra to r i n any i n d i ctmen t yo u know of?
18A No . May I as k the l ocat io n in Ne w Je r sey ?
9Q Le t s l eave the poin t fo r a mome n t .
20In f a c t , in the var ious t imes you have spoken
21to repor t e rs o r spoke n with the know l e d ge t ha t you r word s
22
migh t be publ i sh e d , h aven t y ou so u gh t to ma ke yourse lf
23a publ i c f i g ure on the mar i ju ana i ssue ?
A No , it j u s t happened t h a t way .24
25Q Haven t you sough t to make yourse lf known a s
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1 Ede r 105
2 a n impo r ta n t person in t h e ma r i j u a na o u t l ~ w hu s in c sse s ?
3 A No . In f a c t , I do j u s t t h e oppo s ite. In
4 bo t h a r ticle s t h a t were w r i t te n in NEW YORK MAGAZINE t he
·e 5 exact oppo s ite o f t h a t .
6 Q Can you ex p l a i n what you me an?
7 A D o n t have t o . Yo u as ked me a t o n a nd
8 I an s we red yo u r que s t i on . I i n t en d ed to do t he o ppo s ite .
9 The b i g ma n i s l i k e o ne o f t h e b i g money g uys . The f irst
10a r t i c l e a bout New York we ju s t d ealt w i th t h e New York
11 dope scene on a smRll l e v e l . On t h e s e con d l eve l we
12d ealt wi th s mugg l i n g from Colombia . It wa s r e a l l y a n
13a rticle a bout how in e p t we were in t h a t . I b e li e v e j ust
14t h e o ppo s i t e would be t h e ca s e .
15Q Would you o b j e c t if any a t t o rn e y who f o rma l l y
16rep r ese n te d you had in formed t h a t you i n f a c t h a d b e e n a
17EA i n f o r mant? Would you o b jec t to t h a t b e i ng re ve a l ed ?
18A Ye s I wou ld .
19Q Would y ou a l l ow de f e ndan t Web erman to o b ta in
20a n y gove r nm e n t r eco rds t h a t may ~ x s t wh i c h ma y conc e rn
a ny a ctivitie s you might h ave had a s a DEA i n fo rmant?21
A I w i l l not a l low him t he t ime o f d ay . Ge t it
22in t he r e cord . Any t h i n g I c a n do towa rd h e l p ing A . J .
23
Web e rman I w i l l c onsc ious ly avoid doing th a t.24
Anyth ing e l s e ?25
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•
Eder 106
2 Q Who r ep resen t s you in the mari juana conv ic t ion
3 which i s now on appeal?
4 A Joe l - - I m so r ry , I d o n t remember the guy s
5 l a s t name. I am very bad on l a s t names. It took me t h r ee
6 months - - Joe l begins with an H.
7 Q Is he assoc ia ted in any way t h a t you know o f
8 with your p r e s en t a t to rney?
9
1
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
MR KAHN: Are you r e f e r r ing to me?
MR MICHAELS: Yes.
MR KAHN:The answer i s no.
A I t o l d you I can g e t you t ha t . Is t ha t an im-
p o r t a n t ques t ion? Because if it i s , I w i l l make a quick
phone c a l l and give you the name.
Q At the s t a r t o f our examinat ions today, before
we commenced the formal examinat ion you t o l d me about a
young lady who sa id t h a t she - -
A That i s i r r e l e v a n t . I am going to answer t h a t
ques t ion .
Q I was not abou t to mention the name.
A You a re not going to mention t ha t f ac t . I am
no t going to dea l 1·1ith t h a t f ac t .
Q You t o l d me abou t a person who had been quoted
as say ing they were r i c h - - had become r i c h because o f t h e i r
con tac t with you. In fac t , isn t t h a t t r ue , t ha t t h e r e a re
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1 Eder 107
2 many peop l e who have prospered because o f t h e i r cont<tcts
3 with you ?
4 A Th ere most d e f i n i t e ly a r e because t ha t i s why
·e s I don t have to worry abou t mak i ng r ~ o r than 100 , bec<tuse
6 the re are many people who have t h e i r money today because
7 they knew me . And I in t roduced them to c e r t a in p e op le
8 where they probab ly made money in the mari juana business .
9 I f tha t i s the ques t ion , the answer i s ye s .
10Q I am g e t t i n g towards the c lose o f the ques t i ons
11I
have for you.
12 Mr . Eder , yo u have t o l d us about a g re a t many
13 cr imes you have committed, a t l e a s t as the law p r e s en t ly
14de f ines the k ind o f behav ior we have been di scuss ing .
15Are yo u aware t h a t your ndmiss io ns with rega rd
16to those cr imes mi gh t poss ib ly be the s ubj ec t o f prosecu -
17t i ons o f you ?
18A Tha t i s r i g h t , bu t t ce r t a i n l y i s no t s ec r e t
19a s to the bus iness th a t I have been in over a per iod o f
20t ime. I have be e n a r r e s t e d on n umerous occas ions on~ ~
2
mari juana convic t ions . I have t o ld the J;l ;ltrol Board in the
Sta te o f C a l i f o r n i a t ha t I i n tend to cont inue in the
22mari juana game foreve r o r a t l eas t as long as t l as t s ,
23
and I have no i n te n tion o f s topp ing mar i juana and I h ave24
no bones , wha tsoever NEW YORK MAGAZINE had a fu ll page25
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I:der 109
2 l aws shou l d be cha nqed and I w u ~ a eb a t e you Rt th i s
3 t ime o r probab ly unde r o ther c i rcumstances e i t h e r , b u t
4 under t he ca tegor ies o f t he presen t law , whn.t yo u a r e
e 5 seek ing to p ro t e c t here i s you r repu tation as a c apab l e
6 a nd honest c r imina l i s i t n o t ?
7 A I objec t to the word c r imin a l I don ' t know
8 wh a t t he p r e s en t l a w c a l l s fo r .
9 Wh a t I a m s t a t i n g i s , I p r e f e r t he word out law
10be use d , a s opposed t o c r i min a l. Other t h a n t h a t , my
11answe r --
12Q Bu t t h e g i st o f the l aws u i t , p rime t h r u s t i s
13by say ing you t e s t i f i e d , t h a t you i n s t i g a ted a prosec u t i o n
14a nd gave i n fo rma t i on ag a in s t Tom Forcade , th a t the d amage
15t h a t has been do ne to y ou i s t he d i f f i c u l t y and the l o ss es
16yo u have s u s t a i n e d as an o u t l aw , a s a s e l l e r o f ma r i j u an a
A Tha t ' s cor rec t .17
MR . MICHAELS : Off t h e r ecord18
19(Disc us s ion o f f t he r eco rd . )
1R . MICHAELS: On the recor d .20
Q Mr . Eder , you t o l d us yo u a re s eeking a pub l i c21
forum in wh i ch to s how t he a l l e g a t i o n s in t he a r t i c l e abo u t
22you a re i n fa l se ; i s t h a t t r ue ?
23
A That ' s co r r ec t .
24
Q You are aware the gover nmen t usua l l y s h ie ld s
5
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2 the i d e n t i t y o f i t s in fo rmants and the government has a
3 pol i cy o f p r o t ec t i n g t he i d e n t i t y o f t h e i r i n fo rman t s
4 a re you not?
5 Yes.
6 Q In seek ing a p u b l i c forum to d i scuss t h i s
7 t r u t h o r f a l s i t y o f the a l l e g a t i o n s about you in the
8 a r t i c l e a re you w i l l i n g to waive any p r i v i l e g e t h a t you
9 might conceivably have as to the p r o t ec t i o n to any i d en -
1 t i f i c a t i o n you may ever have ·had as an informant?
11 When t h a t comes to c o u r t when t h a t ge t s i n t o
12 cour t and I put witnesses on the s t an d if those witnesses
13 are members o f a governmenta l agency i n v e s t i g a t i v e agency
14 such as DE and the FBI and those people are p laced on
15 the s tand as defense w i t n e s s e s then they a re open f o r
16c ross examinat ion and in doing t h a t I am p u t t i n g my neck
17on t he chopping block . t i s t h a t s imple ; so
18Q Should a g u es t i o n come up --
9For the r e c o rd I wave noth ing but the
20American f l ag and I only do t h a t on the 4th o f Ju ly .• 21
22
Q Are you t h e r e f o r e c la iming the p r o t e c t io n o f
whatever government p o l i c i e s may e x i s t to sh i e l d i n fo rman t s
23through the course o f t h i s l awsu i t?
24A That i s a loaded ques t ion . I am n o t going to
25answer t h a t ques t ion .
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2 Q o you c l aim the she l t e r given hy law?
A Tha t i s a l o a d e d ques t i on . Yo u ca n r eph r a s e
4 i t e i ghteen t i mes. It i s a l oaded que s t ion a nd I am no t
5 go ing t o dea l w ith i t.
6 Q Are . yo u c l aim i ng any pr i v i l ege o f the
7 A Tha t i s a l oaded ques t io n a nd yo u can reph r a se
8 i t ano the r seven teen t i me s , bu t more th a n th a t yo u do n t
9 ge t . You g e t seve ntee n mor e reph rase s and you wi l l ge t the
10same a nswe r . I t i s a loade d q ues tio n .
11 MR. MICHAELS : Of f t h e record .
12 .( Discuss ion o f f the record .
13A On t h e r eco rd .
14Q Mr . Eder , i f in fac t t he re i s some gove rnmen t
15re co rd somewhere th a t wh a t Mr . Weberman sa i d in the a r t i c l e
16i s i n f a c t t ru e , are yo u i ntend i ng t o , throug h th i s l aws u i t ,
17c l a i mi n g it i s no t t r u e an d us i ng th a t pro t e c t i o n o f s h i e ld -
18i n g the name s o f rea l i n fo rmants ?
19A Tha t l eave s yo u s ix t e e n ways o f rephra s ing t h a t
20ques t ion .
Aga i n , Mr . Mi c h ae l s , th a t i s a loaded que s t i o n21
and as such , I am not go i n g to dea l w ith th a t q u es t i o n a t
22t h i s po i n t . So aga i n , yo u h ave s i xtee n more rephra se s .
23
Fo r t he r ecor d , it i s now a q ua r t e r t o s ix . We24
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2 Q Do you have any concern the re mi ght be any
3 governmental f i l e s anywhere t h a t might say you are t h e i r
4 governmenta l informant?
•5 A Obviously s ince an informant i s the one th a t
6 gives up in format ion regard les s o f the conno ta t ion o f t he
7 s o c i e ty s ince I have given in format ion on two se p a ra t e
8 occas ions to two governmen ta l bodie s one to each the re
9 i s no ques t ion whatsoeve r t h a t somewhere a long the l i n e
10 we pu t a guy on t he s tand and the re i s a n informant and
11 he informed on t h i s and t h i s and a t t h a t t ime you w i l l h ave
12 a n oppor tuni ty to cross examine . I f you are ask ing me to
13 wa ive any r i gh t s to give t h i s degenera te
14 Q Poin t ing to Mr. Weberman .
15 A I f you a r e ask ing me to waive r i gh t s and give
16him the r i g h t to ge t my r e p o r t s on the
17Q No I am n o t . I t h ink you misunders tand the
18ques t ion . I am ask ing you whether in fac t you i n t end t o
19t ake advantage o f the government pol i cy to r e fuse to
2id e n t i f y the rea l names o f informants?
21A You go t f i f t e e n I th ink l e f t . That i s ano t h e r
rephras ing o f the ques t ion .
22Q ·when you t ake the s tand do you i n t e nd to t ll
23
the cour t t h a t yo u seek t he pro tec t ion o f the sec recy o f24
25the names o f inform an t s whi le you s u e somebody on you r
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2 cla im t ha t it i s not t rue?
3 A Again , we a re deal ing with the same th ing . This
4 man has s t a t e d in p r i n t t h a t I t e s t i f i e d .before a grand
5 jury in Brook lyn . I am not ove r l y concerned whe ther it i s
6 a h i gh- le ve l DE informant . You made the i ssue on t h i s .
7 I a l ready s t a t ed to you I informed the DE , I gave them a
8 piece of info rmat ion . I t raded them for it and you a re
9 asking me to go f u r ther tha n t ha t , and I am not w i l l i n g to
10go fur ther tha n th a t.
11 My con ten t ion i s I never t e s t i f i e d anywh e re in
12Brooklyn o r New Je r sey o r any o ther place t h a t you a re
13t a lk ing about , and t ha t i s the t h r u s t o f my content io n
14wi t h in th i s l awsu i t .
15Q Wil l you al low gove rnment o f f i c i a l s to t e s t i f y ,
16if t ha t i s , in f a c t , yes , you were a n informant i n o the r
17ways , in o the r cases bes ides wha t you have t o ld us today?
18A I don t have a choice , i f you c a l i these peop l e
t o the s tan d .19
20Q You don t c la im any pro tec t ion?
A I didn t say t h a t and you are t r y ins the same21
th ing aga in , Michaels .
22Of f the record .
23
Discussion o f f the record . )
24
MR . MICH ELS : On the r ecord p l eas e .
25
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2 Q Mr . Eder , in those l i m i t e d inst .1nc e s where
3 you did provide in fo rmat ion t o the FBI an d DEA , wh i ch you
4 h.:ive t o ld us abont , <lo you h eJ i e ve t h a t i n fo rmat ion was
s help fu l to the FBI and the DEA ?
6 A Yes , I mos t d e f i n i t e l y be l i eve it WQS he lp fu l
7 to t he FB I and the DEA . However
8 Q Did t ha t he l p mainta i n the i n t e g r i t y o f t h e i r
9 p e r s o n r n ~ l and secnr i ty systems ?
10A Only the sec u r i t y systems , Rnd my con ten t ion i s
11t h a t in no way j eopard ized my s t an d i ng a s ~ n o u t l aw , simp ly
12because in p r i son pnr l ance , a ra t o r in fo rman t i s one
13who t akes advantage o f g e t t ing o u t o f doing jail t ime by
14pu t t i n g someone e l s e in tha t cage in h i s place , so my dea l
15ing with the governmen t was withou t hur t ing ano ther humHn
16being . I don ' t f ee l I deserve the r epu ta t ion o f bein9 a
r a t .17
18Does t ~ t ~ n s w e your q u e s t ion ?
Q It i s a n answe r to the ques t io n .19
20If you bc 1 i eve th a t yon r .1ork for the g o v e r nment
h e l ped t o protec t s e c u r i ty o f g o v ~ e n t in fo rmat ion i n21
dea lings wi th c r imina l p rosecu t i ons , i s it not t rue the
22 he l p yo u p ro v ided probah ly re s u l t e d in people being j a i l e d?
23A No . Most d e f i n i t e l y no t . ~ ~ e he lp I p rovided ,
24ag a i n , was in te l l i n g - - are you speak in g o f the FRI o r the
25
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•
Eder 115
2 drug enforcement agencies?
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
1
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
23
24
5
Q Both.
A The Federal Bureau of Inves t iga t ion presen ted
leaks in the na t iona l secur i ty system. Since I had the
a b i l i t y to tap the FBI s phone, I had the same a b i l i t y to
t ap any government phone in t ha t a rea , hased on the way
they were doing th ings a t tha t poin t in t ime.
rhe second th ing was t ha t c e r t a in ly wouldn t
have l ed to the a r r e s t o r convic t ion o f any human being.
The second th ing with regard to the Drug Enforcement Ad-
minis t ra t ion , the Drug Enforcement Adminis t ra t ion doe s n t
l i ke a l o t of th ings I do. You broughtup the po in t o f
warning the sh ips . I have done t ha t on numerous occas ions .
The government i s very upset about They d i d n t ge t - -
They d i d n t ge t any pos i t i ve convic t ions out o f anything
t ha t I to ld them. What they did ge t , the fu r t hes t you
could poss ib ly s t r e t ch my help to the government i s I might
have been able to give t h i s information as to how to plug
in the computers to somebody who it might have helped them
to avoid cap tu re . This i s the fur thes t you could possib ly
s t r e t ch the damage I would have done to another out law.
Q The damage to another out law, even i you had
not given a name, t ha t re su l ted in immediately and d i rec t l y
in an a r r e s t ; i s n t t h a t t rue? The ass i s t ance you provided
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2 p robab l y h e l ped the e f f i c i ency o f the l a w e n forceme n t
3 agenc i e s by t hose a ge nc i e s th a t some peop le were a rres t ed
4 t h a t otherw i se would no t have been a r r e s t e <l?
5 A Abso l u t e l y not
6 Q Wh e r e d id yo u ge t the lis t o f wa n te d s h i p s
7 wh i c h I t h ink you c a l l e d a hot s he e t ? Whe r e did yo u ge t
8 t he l i s t ?
9 A Which one ? I can s t a t e very simp l y th a t o n a t
10 l east t e n t imes I have go t te n t e n l ists .
11Q From whom?
12A From va r ious sources
13 Q From whom?
14A F rom va r iou s sour ces . That i s an ans we r to
15t he q ues t i on .
16Q Are yo u w il l ing t o i d en t i f y t he source s?
17A I am unwi l l ing to id en t i f y any o f the sourc e s .
18MR KAHN : Off t he rec6r d
19D i s cuss ion o f f the r e co rd .
20MR MICHAELS : Back on the r e co rd
Q Go ahead 21
A I am l os t 22
Q Are you dec l i n i ng to answe r t he que s t i o n?23
A What ques t ion?24
Q The ques t io n is wo uld you p l ease t e l l us t he25
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2 peop le from whom you go t the li s t s o f h o t sh ips , o f wa n te d
3 s hips?
4 A Of cour se not .
e 5 Q Thank you.
6 A No not thank you . Let me comp l e te my answe r
7 to t h e ques t ion . Of course , any perso n who s to l e th es e
8 are gene r a l ly t e le type t ha t were t e l e typed to var ious Coast
9 Gu a r ds and sometimes a fu l l ho t s heet , an d a t any t ime a ny -
10bo dy gave me t ha t info r ma t i on , a l o t o f people were working
11 f o r t he governmen t a nd the re were kids t h a t wo rked fo r th e
12Coas t Gu a rd and peo p le who worke d in governme n t a genc ies
13 for which we pa id for these hot she e t s . Of course we
14couldn t t e ll you t ha t .
15MR. MICHAELS : Subject to my c l i e n t ' s
16approval , have complete d my exam ina t ion . \van t
17to th a nk Mr. Kahn , our r epor t e r , and Mr. Ede r , as
18·we ll.
19Q Mr. Ede r , our concluding ques t i ons a re as
fol lows :20
2Had you re ad the c omp l a i n t in t h i s case p r i o r
to today ?
22A I 'm sorry , no.
23
Q Do you know whe th e r your a t to rney in t h i s24
mat te r ever previous ly rep re sented Mr . Thomas Fo rcade o r25
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2 any of h is busines s ven tures?
3 A You h ave to depose my a t t o r n ey .
4 Q I am ask ing whether you have any knowledge .
5 I am not asking you the f a c t .
6 A Whether I have any knowled0e?
7 Q Do you know whether you r presen t a t to rney , Mr .
8 Kahn , s i t t i n g nex t to you , v r prev ious ly rcpre s cm t ed Mr
9 Fo rcade o r h i s bus iness ve n tu res?
10 A I be l ieve he may h ave been rep re se n t ing
11 Transhigh Corporat ion somewh ere along the l i ne . I don t
12 know i he ever rep re sen ted Tom persona l l y .
13 Q Do you know how t ha t r e l a t i ons h ip t e rmi n a te d?
14A I have no idea . I don t eve n know i it has
15t e rmina ted .
16Q At my c l i e n t s r eq u es t , I want to ask one f ina l
17ques t ion , which i s whethe r you di scussed t h i s mat t e r t> li th
18you r a t to rney be fo re t ~ e comp l a i n t was d r awn , whe th e r yo u
19informed him th a t you saw the p r i n c i pa l dama0e to you r
20r e pu ta t ion as the damage to your re::>u·tatio n as t o ha t yo u
c a l l an outlaw?
e 21
A I t h ink ~ ~ t I s a i d to my a t t o r n ey was t h i s was
22a mal ic ious a t t ack by A J . Weberman and these peop l e shou ld
23
have known it was a mal ic ious a t t a c k by Nebernan . They24
should have checked the vera c i t y o f the s ta tement t h a t I25
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2 s ince the m j o r i t y o f my adu l t l i f e was s p e n t in pr i son
3 s i t ua t ions , my te rminolog y o f info rman t i s one who t r ades
4 h i s ca ge , t rade s , gives up h i s ca ge l e t me reph r a se
e5 th a t - - i s one who ge ts ou t o f a cage by pu t t i ng a not h e r
6 ma n in t he cag e in his p l ac e , and I ha ve neve r done t h a t
7 and I neve r i n tend to do t ha t .
8 Q I s the t e r m cop some t imes t r e a t e d s ynonymous l y
9 in your und e r s ta nding, with t he word in fo r mant ?
10 A Erroneous l y . Again , my par lanc e i s based
11 pr ima r i l y o n p r i son . A cop i s a cop and a r a t i s a r a t .
12 They are t wo separa te a nd d i s t i n c t e n t i t i e s .
13 Q Looking a t the a r t i c l e we a re d is cuss ing , I
14 am c a l l i ng you r a t t e n t ion t o a c ouple o f sen ten ces tha t
15 say , ' \ery few o ther people wo u ld he lp Tom. Rubin and Tom
16had ca l l ed me a cop . Rub in a nd Hoffman had ca l l ed him a
17cop dur ing the yipp e e - z i ppy co n f l i c t in Miami , a nd t h a t
18l abe l s tuck . Even tua l ly b o th Abby and .._l'erry admi t t e d t h i s
19wa s t:he wr ong t hing to do.
20A I canno t a n sw e r fo r A. J . Weberman ' s wr t ng ,
21s ince I d i d n ' t wri t e t ha t . A . J . Weber.ma n - - a t no t ime ,
22
t o my knowledge , was Tom accused o f b e i ng a cop . He was
23a ccused o f b e ing a n age n t , o f be in g an in fo r man t and
24a ccuse d of work ing for the i n t e l l igence commun i ty .
25At no t ime in my knowl e d ge was he eve r acc u se d
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2 o f being a cop
3 Q Does the word in fo rmant in t h e se nse t h a t
4 you unders tand it , have a very ne g a t i ve connotat ion?
5 A bo u t as nega t ive a s yo u c a n g e t .
6 Q Would you say it a l s o i s a nega t i ve connota t i o n
7 among you r f r i e nds , fami ly and bus ines s a ssoc i a te s ?
8 A The word info r man t i s not on ly amongst th e
9 r a t , s omeone who be t rays the t r u s t o f h is peers , it i s
10 l ooked upon as a pi ranha by our soc ie ty . We a r e dea l i ng
11w ith go
inga l l t he way t o Juda s a nd J esus , r i gh t up to t he
12 i n f o r ~ a n t wh i c h was l a t e r redone with b l ack s no t to o many
13 yea r s ago on every l eve l in t he soc ie ty , excep t f o r poss ih ly
14a few o f t he n ewe r cop shows i n which a pimp r a t , who i s
15looked upon as a he ro . In most l eve l s o f s o c i e ty , in -
16forman t i s loo ked upo n as a l ow li f e .
17Q I s the word i nforman t synonymous wi t h t he
18word s n i t c h ?
19A x a c t l ~ Mos t def i n i t e l y .
20Q ~ t h e r parag raph : Recen t l y Ri ck Nemay , in -
21formant , FBI , snake , who in f iltr te d the z ip p ie s and c a me
doi n g a book fo r Quadrang l e Press about h is expe r i ences ,24
re fused to he l p frame him25
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F ncr 1 2 2
2 In rega r d to t ha t paragraph , hy c o n t r a s t o f
3 t he paragraph in which your name was mentioned what d id
4 t h a t sugges t t o you?
5 A It sugges te d to me he was a good guy and no t
6 a r a t an d I was a bad guy and a r a t . In th i s case th a t
7 i s wha t it s u gges t s to me .
8 Taking the a r t i c l e as a whole looking a t th a t
9 paragrap h and ·che paragraph abo u t me one i s the good guy
10 a nd one i s the bad guy .
11 Q Yo u t e s t ified t h a t you had given v e ry l imi t ed
l2 i nformat ion to t he FBI in 1975. Have you g i ve n i n f o rma t io n
13 to t he I in the yea r s subsequent to 1975?
14 A Let me dea l w ith th a t. I h a ve wor k ed once
15 w ith the FBI and I s t a t e d a t whic h t ime I worked wi t h th e m.
16And I worke d w ith t h e ones w ith t h e Drug Enforc e ment Ad -
17min i s t r a t i o n and t h a t s it b aby .
18Q W t h r e spec t to the Drug Enforce me n t Adminis -
19tra t io n wi t h which yo u made your arrang emen t in 1 976 h a ve
20yo u g ive n th e m a ny fu r th e r in format ion in 1977 1 978 o r
211979?
A I had no c o n tac t wh a tso e ve r .
22
23Q At t h e t ime t h i s a r t i c l e r e f e r s to wh e n it
24
r e fe rs to you r name in 1977 it i s th e r e fore the case th a t
25you we r e not de a l i n g with o r giv ing a ny in f o rma tio n wh a t
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2 soeve r t o t he A a t th a t t i me ?
3 A Th a t i s co r r ec t .
4 Q I n c ommo n parl a nc e , t h e wo r d i n fo rm a n t , i s
5 tha t gen e ra l l y unde r s t oo d t o me a n s omeone who me r e l y g i v e s
6 some i nformat i o n a bou t th e t e c hn i c a l da ta , s uch a s you ga ve ,
7 o r i s it mo re su re ly und e r s tood t o mea n a s n i t c h o f r a t
8 th a t tu r ns o n s ome spec i f i c - -
9 A I n gene·ca l , i n a soc ie t y i n ge n e ra l , U1e wo r d
1 informan t , if it i s no t used in a c r i mi na l comp l a i n t , has -
11it
i s no t a devil
word .t
i s no t a d e vil
word i f y o u say ,
12I ha ve a n i nfo r ma n t who t e lls me t h a t if I go i n to th e
13 bus i ness in Ha i t i t omor r ow , I a m goi ng to ma ke a l o t o f
14mone y . Tha t i s a n in fo r man t wh o gi v e s tha t i n fo rm a t io n .
15As we know it wi t h i n the s t r uc tu re o f t h e
16soc i e ty i n wh ic h I live a nd t h a t i s no t on ly th e peo p l e
17who a re e ng a ged i n outlaw a c t i viti e s bu t p eo p l e I know
18soc i a l l y a nd pe rsona lly , t h e word in forman t i s a b o u t a s
19low a word , it ' s a bou t a s de ro ga tory a nd pe jo r a t iv e a wo r d
20a s y o u c a n us e aga in s t a human b e ing .
Q I s t ha t bec aus e it i s t re a t 8d as meaning y o u21
g i ve i n fo rma t i o n 1 a bo u t a no th e r h uman be in g t h a t ca use d h i s
22a r res t?
23
A No , it ' s b e cau se i t i s t re a te d , t r a d in g y o ur24
c age w ith ano t h e r ma n , pu t t i ng ano ther man i n a c ag e s o25
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2 you don t h ave to go i n t o a caqe .
3 Q Whe n you r e ad t he a r t i c l e by Mr . We b e rman , d id
4 you unders tand t h a t to mean he was s t a t i ng o r implying yo u
s gave in fo rmat ion to a grand j u ry with r e spec t t o ~ o m Fo rc a de
6 fo r the p urpose o f p u t t i n g him in a c a ge and k ee ping yo u
7 out?
8 A Exa c t ly . He says th a t I ga ve t e s t i mo ny b e fo re
9 a gran d j ury in Brooklyn in the year 1977 . This i s a lie
10That i s . the who l e crux o f my c as e . All the r e st o f wha t
11 i s b e ing s t a te d i s g r ea t b e twee n l awyers , bu t my cas e i s
12v ery s i mp ly th a t t h i s man has s a id t h a t I t estif i e d before
13 a gr a n d j u ry ag a in s t anothe r human being and I n eve r <lid
14t h is . And I f e e l he d i d t h i s ma l i c iou s l y and w ith the
15i n ten t ion o f t r y i n g to h u r t me . Th i s i s my wa y o f e xpre s s -
16ing t h is l a w s u i t .
17Q Do you h a ve any ink l ing a s to why Mr . We be rma n
18b ea r s any f ee l i n g of ma lice , ho s tility t owards yo u in -
19div idua l ly?
20MR . MICH ELS: b j ~ c o n As k e d a nd
a n swe r e d . D id n t we v i ew t h a t spec i f i c a lle g a t io n ?21
MR . K HN : I do n t r eca ll t h a t you asked
22him
23
Q I n ad d i t i o n t o the spe c i f i c a llega t i o n th a t wa s24
made by you a bo u t Mr Webe r rnan , do you h a ve a ny t hing more ?25
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1 F.der 26
2 A That s cor rec t .
3 Q Were the re a ny o ther persons , to your know l edge ,
4 th a t dec l ned to work fo r you o n t h i s pro j ec t as a r esu lt
5 o f tJ e publ c a t ion o f t h i s a r t i c l e ?
6 A Yes .
7 Q Wou ld yo u t e ll us who they were ?
8 A Paul Kra s ne r , Sa l l y Ma r , a l t h ough S a l l y , I con -
9 vinced h e r t h a t wa s no t the case . Ther e have been o th e r
10people , yes .
11MR . KAHN : Tha t i s a ll I have .
2MR . MICHAELS : I w ll be b r i e f o n r e -
3d re c t .
4EXAMINATION BY MR MICHAELS:
5Q You have see n governmenta l agency r e p o r t s a t
6t imes , have you not?
A I have .7
8Q Inve s t i g a t i ve r ep o r t s , th a t s o r t o f th ing ?
A I have .9
20Q You a re aware the in fo rmant i s o f t e n us e d as
a n inform a n t who g i ves spec i f i c i nfo r mation even though21
they a re not t r ad ing a cage fo r ano ther perso n s i n ca r ce r a -22
t ion?23
A Yes , they have paid i n forman ts t h a t do t fo r24
o the r reasons . There s a lways some game fo r the in fo rmant .25
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2 A From a transac t i o n Forca de and I we r e in vo l ved
3 i n .
4 Q What l oca t ion?
5 A F lo r id a .
6 Q With h i s permiss ion?
7 A He didn t have a ch o i ce . I sa id , you know,
8 Ma n , I 'm t ak ing t h i s . What do you want to do? He d id n ' t
9 wa n t to do no t h i n g . He knew. There was a man in t he room.
10 He sa i d , Tom, you b ea t him fo r h i s money . I to ok f i f t y
11 a nd f i f t y more to make up f o r the i n t e r e s t and t ook one
12 hundred pounds from him in f r o n t o f h i s face . I t o l d him
l3 I wa s t ak i n g t h i s . It was t h a t s imple .
14 Q The two o f you we r e a lone a t the t ime?
5A Me a nd Tom.
16Q Who e l s e was pres e nt?
17A I wouldn t give you t h a t info rmation .
18Q Was a ny weapon in t he room?
19A Tom had a .45 in h i s b e l t .
20Q Any o ·th e r s ?
2A Not to my knowle dge .
22Q Did you hav e a ny weapons ?
23A I do n ' t ca r r y a gun .
24Q Did you have any weapon ?
25A No, I don t ca r ry a gun .
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1 Ede r 1 29
2 Q ow wa s it t h a t he ha d a gun and you had no
3 weapon a t a ll and tha t you we re ab le to simp ly say to
4 him , 11 I am t ak ing it 1 and walk out with something va lu ed ,
5 I t hink you sa id , abou t 20,000 ?
6 A That s wha t it would be va l ued ou t , twenty
7 t hou sand .
8 Q Wha t was it force o f persona l i ty , hypno t i c s?
9 A Ne i th e r . You a re f ace t ious .
10 Q Yes , I apo l og i ze .
11A What h appens in t h i s busines s i s we know the
12d i f ference between r i gh t and wrong . I was in a po s i t i o n to
13conf ron t th i s man wi t h r egard t o h i s having chea te d me o n
14a n ea r l i e r run . I was working a t the t ime o f being chea ted .
15I wa s working fo r Torn Forcade . I was not his par t ner . I
16wa s s till working fo r him and he wa s supposed t o have pa id
17me 50 , 000 o r 200 , 000 pounds o f mari juana . Ins tead o f
18paying me 1 50,000 pounds o f ma r ij uana , la te r , j u s t pr i o r
19to th i s bus ines s arrangemen t going down where I wa s Tom s
20par tne r a t t h i s t i me , j u s t p r i o r to it going down , I go t
t he in fo rmat i on ahou t h i s h aving b ea t me for the f i f t y21
pound s , s o I wen t t o o ther peop le in the g ang and asked
22did t h i s ~ e l l y t ake p lace . I go t the informat io n th a t it
23
had . I con f ronted Tom wi t h the i n fo rma t i on tha t he had24
bea t me fo r the f i f ty . e agreed he h a d bea t me for the25
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1 Eder 1 30
2 f i f t y . I t o ld h i m, I T t.:1king the f i f t y and I ' rn tak ing
3 anothe r f i f ty , b e cause he was a fake . He was ca r ry ing a
4 gun but he h a d no choice because the o th e r guy was in t he
5 room. He sa id, Ma n, you CJOt no choice . You bu s ted him .
6 He c a r r i ed a gun . Tom Forcade a l s o p u l l e d a gun o n me
7 dur ing the same ope r a t i on . He pulle d a gun .
8 Q There wa s a pe r iod o f t i me t h a t you were a ngry
9 w ith Forcade and though t abou t revenge but had not reso l ved
10 the problem , was there n o t ?
11A
No , because I wa s -- couldn t have b e e n more
12 tha n a day- and- a - ha l f , two days from t he t ime I found ou t
13 abou t it to the t ime I took my ma te r i a l back .
14 Q Wi t h in the l a s t yea r , have you t e s t i f ie d in any
15 cour t o f l aw wher e the j u ry o r judge accepted you r word ?
16 A I h ave no t t e s t i f i e d in a cour t o f l a w i n a ny
17 case , other t ha n my ca s e , t o the bes t o f my knowledge . I
18canno t eve r rememb e r ever be ing ca l led . Maybe I was onc e ,
19in Cal i fo r nia . I have never t e s t i f i e d aga i ns t anyone in
20any case anywhere in the world a t any t i me .
2Q No judge- or ju ry whi c h ever r ece ive d you r ~ o r
in court?22
23A There i s no judg e o r a ny j u ry -- I do n ' t k now
24t h a t . There are judge s and jur i e s who have accepted my
25word in cou r t, when I defended my se lf. Let me t ry the
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1 Ede r 131
2 sta t emen t aga i n . At no t ime in my 48 y ear s , i n my
3 ex i s t e nce , have I e v e r t e s tifi e d a ga i n s t any pe r son i n
4 any c r imina l p ro cedure ; i s t h a t c l ea r ? Th a t i s p r e t t y
5 b r oad . That i s 48 y ea r s o f it . Doe s t h a t a nswe r you r
6 q ues tio n? I h a ve t estifi e d in my own case s .
7 Q How many t im e s was your wo rd accep te d i n you r
8 own ca s e s?
9 MR AHN : I ob j e ct to t h a t . One n e ve r
1 knows -- How d oes o ne know t h e bas i s o f how it i s
11 accep t e d a t t h e t r i a l ?
12 Q In t ho s e cas e s you t es tifie d , th e c ase s in
13 v h i c h t h e j u ry conv i c te d you o f c r im e s
14 MR KA HN : I o b j ec t to t h a t. You do n t
15 k now if o th e r t e s t imony o r ev idence wa s in t h e cas e
16 and you don t know t he ju r y s ba s i s f o r wh a t t he
17dec i s io n was .
18Q Ha ve yo u t e s t ifie d in yo u r own beha lf ?
19A In wh i c h t he j u ry b e lieved me?
20 Q Wh i c h i n f ac t re s u l t e d in you r be in g c onv i c te d
e 21o f a cr ime .
22A Bo th . I h a ve n e v e r t e s ti f i e d i n c a se s d e a l in g
23wi t h o t h e r peop l e ; th a t i s No . 1 . Le t s ge t th a t s t r a i gh t
24a ga i n f rom t he jump .
25Q I u n d e r s ta nd you r pos itio n .
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1 Ede r 1 3 3
2 A Outlaw bu s i ne ss a nd l eg i t i ma t e in l a w bu s in es s .
3 n nd they cont inued t o do bus ine ss with me fo l lo wi n g t h i s .
4 And t h e re were some p eop le who f e l t th ey did n t wa n t t o do
5 bus in e ss wi t h me a f t e r t h a t .
6 How eve r , up u n t i l t he po i n t of A. J . We herrnan s
7 a r t i c l e app e a r ing in t h i s V i l l age Voice , I had nothing to
8 pu t my t ee th in to . A. J . Webe rman has ma de a s t atemen t .
9 He has sa id I am a governme n t in fo rmant who t es tifie d in
10 1977 befo r e a Brooklyn g r and jury . That did not tak e p l ac e .
11Oka y? All I an1 saying is if t h i s took p l a ce l e t me be
12a r a t in pub l i c . Let him come i n to cour t a nd s t a t e it
13 took p l a ce .
14 Q Mr . Ed er in the var ious time s you have s poke n
5with rep o r t e r s a nd j o u rn a l i s t s o r write r s wh e re yo u k n ew
16you had the oppor tun i ty to address the publ i c a bout your
17ca ree r in h i s t o ry , did y o u ever t ake the o ppo rtun i ty to
18de ny the a l l e ga t i o n made by HI GH TIMES MAGAZ I NE a nd t.he
19a t t or ney Michael Kennedy , in 1977 t h a t you were a D J·c o t i c
20in fo rma nt?
A2
I have not b e en i n te rv i ewed by any p ub l i c a t i o n
s ince t h a t took p l a ce . Do e s t h a t an swe r your que s t i o n ?22
Q Have you done a nything t o s eek t he oppor tun i ty23
to de ny t he a l l e g a t ion made a t th a t time by tho s e p a r t i e s?. 4
A No , b eca use I d i d n t kn ow wh a t t he recou r se s25
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Ede r 34
were o f f e r e d to me a t t h e t ime .
At t he t i me I wa s too punchy , i s t h e r i gh t
wo rd , hav in g t h i s t h i ng h appe n to me , t o t a ke e f f e c t i v e
a n e f f e c t i ve co un t e r a t t a ck . At t h i s t ime I have a n
tto r ney who i s w i l l in g to make a n e f f ec t i v e coun t e r a t t a ck
a nd fo r t h e r eco rd , un t i l s uch a t ime , un t i l I came i n t h i s
o f f ic e , I had n t thought abou t su ing HIGH TIMES an d Michae l
Kennedy , bu t I a m now .
Does t h a t answer you r ques tio n ?
Q I sit
t h e r e f o re t r u e , in f a c t , you neve r den ied
th a t a llega t i on o r so u gh t any o ppor tun i t y to deny i t ?
A I mos t c e r t a in ly did d eny th i s a l l e ga tio n .
Q To whom?
A To everyb ody I c ame ac ro s s , t nc luding Tom
Forcade , and a t one t ime t he re was a s i t u a t i o n wh e r e Forcade
n t e d t o mee t wi th me wi t h r eg a rd to t h i s , a nd h r e i s a
person i n New Yo r k Ci ty pos s i b l y who mi gh t be ab l e t o
t es t i fy to th a t . Aga i n , I canno t g ive th i s pe r s on s name
un t i l I have spoken to him
t i on s .
MR. MICHAELS : I have no fu r t he r q ues -
MR . K N : I have n o f u r the r que s t i o n s .
(T ime noted : _6 : 3 0 p m .
Subsc r ib e d and sworn to be fo re me
t h i s day o f 1979
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C E R T I F I C A T E
STATE OF NEW YORK )
SS
COUNTY OF NEW YORI< )
I SHA RYN L . BAMBER , a Shor thand Repo r t e r
an d Notary Publ ic wi th in and fo r the S ta t e o f
Ne w York do hereby c e r t i f y :
Tha t ·cHIC EDER , t he wi t n es s \·1hose
p o s . i . t i o n i s herein.be fo r e s8 t fo r th , ·was • 1 u l • r
sworn by me a nd t h a t such p o i t i n i s t ue
r eco r d o f t h e t es t mony g ive n by s uc h L n
I f u r t h e r ce r t i f y t h a t 1 <:rn rio t r n l n. t ; rl
to any o f the pa r t i e s to t h i s a c t ion by b J O •d
~ r marr ia g e , and th a t I a m in no way 5 n t e r ~ s ~ a d