bbl in senate | ceasefire mechanism in the bbl, april 13, 2015
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Transcript of Senate hearing on the BBL, April 13, 2015TRANSCRIPT
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Republic of the Philippines CONGRESS OF THE PHILIPPINES
SENA TE Pasay City
COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT
JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND
RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES
DATE : Monday, April 13, 2015 TIME : 10:00 a.m. VENUE : Sen. Claro M. Recto and Sen. Jose P. Laurel Rooms 2nd Floor, Senate of the Philippines Financial Center, Roxas Boulevard
Pasay City AGENDA : SBN 2408 - Ceasefire Mechanism of the
Bangsamoro Basic Law (By: Sens. Drilon, Sotto, Legarda, Recto, Binay, Escudero, Aquino, Angara, Cayetano (P.), Honasan and Guingona)
ATTENDANCE SENATORS PRESENT:
Hon. Ferdinand Bongbong Marcos Jr. Chairman, Committee on Constitutional Amendments and Revision of Codes
Hon. Teofisto TG L. Guingona III Chairman, Committee on Peace, Unification and Reconciliation
Hon. Ma. Lourdes Nancy S. Binay - Member Hon. Vicente C. Sotto III - Member Hon. Paolo Benigno Bam Aquino - Member Hon. Francis G. Escudero - Member
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COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES Monday, April 13, 2015 Page 2 of 4 GUESTS/RESOURCE PERSONS:
Hon. Teresita Quintos-Deles - Presidential Adviser on the Peace Process Mr. Neil Simon Silva - Assistant Secretary, Department of Justice (DOJ) Mr. Mohagher Iqbal Chairman, Bangsamoro Transition Commission (BTC) Prof. Miriam Coronel-Ferrer - Chairperson, Government Peace Negotiating Panel for Talks with the MILF Datu Abul Khayr Alonto - Chairman, Moro National Liberation Front (MNLF) Central Committee Atty. Akmad Sakkam - Vice Chairman, BTC Mr. Rashid Ladiasan - Chairperson, MILF Coordinating Committee on the Cessation of Hostilities (CCCH) MGen Dato Sheikh Moksin Bin - Head of Mission, International
Sheikh Hassan Monitoring Team (IMT) BGeneral Carlito Galvez Jr. - Chairperson, GPH-CCCH
BGeneral Manolito Orense - Chairperson, GPH-Ad Hoc Joint Action Group General Gregorio Pio P. Catapang Jr.- Chief of Staff, Armed Forces of the Philippines (AFP) MGeneral Edmundo R. Pangilinan - Commander 6th Infantry Division, Philippine Army LGeneral Rustico O. Guerrero - Commander, Western
Mindanao Command, AFP Major Carlos Sol - Secretariat Head GPH-CCCH PC/Supt. Jose Erwin Villacorte - CIDG-PNP Mr. Erik Forner - Ambassador of Norway Mr. William J. Hovland - Chief Operations Officer, IMT Mr. Aizzudin Bin Arrifin - Head Coordinator, Civilian Protection Component, IMT
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COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES Monday, April 13, 2015 Page 3 of 4 SENATORS STAFF: Mr. Juan Baras - O/S Marcos
Ms. Ma. Clarissa Lopez - O/S Binay Mr. Alcones Franklin Paul - O/S Binay Ms. Vina Panus - O/S Osmea III Ms. Margie Manlunas - O/S Angara Mr. Hutch M. Altavas - O/S Sotto Ms. Andrea Gomez - O/S Sotto Mr. Rosk Costuna - O/S Sotto Ms. Kathleen Sonza - O/S Sotto Mr. Mark Gamboa - O/S Recto Ms. Charlotte Franco - O/S Escudero Mr. Dominic Lacbayo - O/S Legarda Ms. Zheanne Aeson Dantis - O/S P. Cayetano Ms. Patty Taga - O/S A. Cayetano Mr. Sam Fernandez - O/S A. Cayetano
SENATE SECRETARIAT:
Ms. Assumption Ingrid B. Reyes - Legislative Committee Secretary Ms. Cleofe P. Caturla - Legislative Committee
Stenographer Ms. Helen S. Gayapa - - do Ms. Cindell B. Gealan - - do Ms. Christine M. Nery - - do Ms. Rosemarie J. Ortiz - - do Mr. Guillermo E. Sapinoso Jr. - - do Ms. Nida A. Mancol - - do Ms. Maribel P. Mendoza - - do Ms. Ma. Emperatriz L. Novero - - do Ms. Susana Grace L. Robles - - do Mr. Rommel P. Alger - - do Ms. Norma G. Dizon - - do - Ms. Mylene Palino - Legislative Committee Clerk Mr. Jimmy Gaviola - - do
Ms. Abigael Olson - Legislative Page, OSAA Mr. Eric Jalandoon - - do Mr. Raul Balansag - - do Mr. Allan Laureano - Audio Operator
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COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES Monday, April 13, 2015 Page 4 of 4
Mr. Joey Busalpa - - do - (For complete list, please see attached Attendance Sheet.)
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COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES Caturla I-1 April 13, 2015 10:21 a.m. 1 AT 10:21 A.M., HON. FERDINAND R. MARCOS JR., CHAIRMAN OF THE COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT, CALLED THE HEARING TO ORDER.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Good morning, ladies and
gentlemen.
The Senate hearing of the Committee on Local Government joint
with the Committee on Peace, Unification and Reconciliation, and the
Committee on Constitutional Amendments and Revision of Codes of
Monday, 13 April 2015, is hereby called to order.
I would like to, first of all, recognize for the record the presence
of Senator Nancy Binay, Senator Chiz Escudero, and Senator Tito
Sotto.
Also, I would like to recognize for the record our resource
persons here this morning: Secretary Teresita Quintos-Deles; from the
Department of Justice, Assistant Secretary Neil Simon Silva; the
chairman of the Bangsamoro Transition Commission, the gentleman
that we have come to know as Mr. Mohagher Iqbal, together with Atty.
Akmad Sakkam, the vice chair of the Bangsamoro Transition
Commission; Professor Miriam Coronel-Ferrer, the chairperson of the
Government Peace Negotiating Panel; Lt. General Gregorio Catapang;
Maj. General Pangilinan, the commander of the 6th ID; Lt. General
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the AFP; CIDG Police Chief Supt. Benjamin Magalong is represented by
Police Chief Supt. Jose Erwin Villacorte, CIDG-PNP; Brig. General
Galvez of the GPH-CCCH; Major Sol, the Secretariat head of the GPH-
CCCH; Brig. General Manolito Orense, chairperson for the GPH-AHJAG;
Mr. Rashid Ladiasan, chairperson of the MILF-CCCH; and from the
International Monitoring Team, Mr. William Hovland, who is the chief
operations officer of the International Monitoring Team; and the head
coordinator of the Civilian Protection Component of the International
Monitoring Team, Mr. Aizuddin Bin Arrifin; also with us is the chairman
of the MNLF Central Committee, Ambassador Datu Abul Khayr Alonto;
His Excellency, the Ambassador of Norway, His Excellency Erik Forner.
I think that, at least, for now is the full list of our resource persons.
So, good morning, ladies and gentlemen and thank you for your
appearance here. This is the resumption of the hearings on the draft
Bangsamoro Basic law.
The agenda for today was to focus very clearly on the
mechanism that we used, that we have seen in Mamasapano and in
other encounters wherein a ceasefire is instituted and both sides
withdraw from further military action in case of an encounter. The
reason that I have asked for these hearings is very simple, is that we
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COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES Caturla I-1 April 13, 2015 10:21 a.m. 3 were not able during the Mamasapano hearings to fully explore
precisely what the timing and the activities and the coordination and
the agreements that were made between the AHJAG Republic of the
Philippines and the CCCH Republic of the Philippines and the AHJAG
and CCCH of the MILF. There is some question as to when exactly the
process of instituting a ceasefire in Mamasapano, when it began and
where the events that eventually led to ceasefire, but very late already
at 4:00 p.m. of Sunday 25, January. So, that was our purpose here
today.
However, circumstances have intervened especially with the
revelation that the chairman of the Bangsamoro Transition Commission
and the head of the negotiating panel for the MILF, Mr. Mohagher Iqbal
has, in fact, been using an alias during all of his dealings with the
peace panel. And so, we would like perhaps to dispose of this issue
and see how much clarification we can get.
So, let me direct the first questions to Chairman Iqbal.
Chairman Iqbal, what is the truth exactly to what came out in the
House of Representatives hearing that Iqbal is not in fact your name?
MR. IQBAL. Its my nom de guerre.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Yes, and I understand.
And the nom de guerre is generally recognized as used because during
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is a combatant, perhaps for the protection of himself and his family
and his associates, that it not be known to the opposition who exactly
what their identity is. But, Mr. Iqbal, again, this calls into question
many things.
Number one, precisely, the signing of the ceasefire agreement
was the cessation of war. And besides, if the reasoning behind your
continuing use of your nom de guerre is for security purposes, you
have made public appearances, you are known by now by the entire
country. So, what is the need for this continuing use? And again,
there is a suspicion of deception why would you hide behind a nom de
guerre when you are signing a peace agreement with the government
and then you are negotiating a peace agreement with the government?
This is something that perhaps doesnt go so much to the legal
question of the use of a nom de guerre but also to the questions of
good faith on the part of the MILF. Why did the MILF feel the need to
present us with a negotiator who is unable to use his real name?
MR. IQBAL. I think I should give a very brief context of
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Well, go ahead, please.
Yes, please do.
MR. IQBAL. why we have this situation right now.
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First, starting a revolutionary struggle is a very difficult and very
dangerous enterprise that would require, first of all, not just the
security of the person involved, like myself but the cause that he or
she I espousing for. Otherwise, if youre not able really to succeed in
concealing our real identity not to deceive people but merely to protect
my person, to protect my family, to protect the struggle, then perhaps
I would not have been around today. And that is precisely why we use
nom de guerre, to protect myself, to protect my family, and to protect
the struggle. As I said, if I was harmed, I was killed, perhaps I would
not appear in this august body and I would not be the head of the MILF
negotiating panel. Especially in our case, when we started our
revolutionary struggle in 1972, the situation was very hot. Many of my
families, my relatives were merely taken, arrested, incarcerated and in
jails for how many months, for how many weeks. So, that would give
enough reason for anyone in the Moro National Liberation Front
because we are still part of the Moro National Liberation Front really to
adopt measures that would ensure that their security is not
compromised.
Secondly, my nom de guerre Mohagher Iqbal has been used as
early as Februarycpc
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MR. IQBAL. as early as February 1979. Your Honor, I think
you are still very young at that time. The group of Salamat Hashim
was invited by your late father to talk about peace although the
meeting or the engagement was officially with the Moro National
Liberation Front. But anyhow, I think it was policy of government to
reach out to other groups who are also fighting the government. So,
there was an invitation by your late father to the MNLF new leadership
because at that time it was--the MILF now is known or was known as
new MNLF leadership. So, your late father invited representative
from the new MNLF leadership and the new MNLF leadership under the
chairmanship Salamat Hashim sent a three-man delegation to
Malacaang and that was in February 1979. One of the
representatives was former governor ... and then another one is a very
senior leader of the new MNLF leadership in the person of ... who is
another nom de guerre and then I was part of that delegation to
Malacaang. So, in the document we signed, I used the name
Mohagher Iqbal. I think that record is still available. It can be
checked and I already used the word Mohagher Iqbal as my nom de
guerre.
And secondly, our engagement with the government of the
Republic of the Philippines, formal engagement, was in January 7,
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Philippines, President Fidel Ramos, and that engagement was political.
It was a political engagement, not strictly speaking on the part of the
MILF as a legal engagement but it was a political engagement. And
then when we faced our counterparts from the government, we carry
signed documents, signed authority coming from the central
committee of the MILF and, of course, articulating the aspirations of
our people. Meaning, our mandate was covered by official document.
And then aside from that, how many presidents? Already four
presidents, excluding your late father because there was no formal
engagement. From President Fidel Ramos to Joseph Estrada, to
Arroyo, and then to Aquino. This nom de guerre has never been
questioned. And I think it is part of confidence-building that the
government of the Republic of the Philippines should treat the MILF as
it is, as a part of confidence-building. Meaning, as partners in the
negotiation or peace process, and then I think it is not part of good
meeting or good arrangement that you suspect the other side. So,
what has taken place is that the government of the Republic of the
Philippines had taken the MILF as it was or as it is and then we also
consider the government of the Republic of the Philippines as a
legitimate partner in peace process.
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So, in short, the use of a nom de guerre is normal in a
revolutionary organization.
And on the issue of the legal aspect of that, I am not a lawyer, I
cannot argue on that. But mainly my statement here is about a
political engagement between the government and MILF and it should
be taken as that.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Thank you, Chairman Iqbal,
but you see, you know, again on the question of security, that is
understandable when you are still under arms and fighting a war
against the government and that is understandable. But as I have
mentioned, perhaps you could reconsider because the question of
security no longer applies as you are here, you are here before the
media of the entire nation. I think that the question of security we
have gone beyond that and we are precisely in the process of peace
agreement and formalizing and institutionalizing those elements of that
peace agreement in the draft BBL.
Secondly, your point about confidence-building, I have to say
that it does not inspire confidence when I am negotiating with
somebody and I do not know what their real identity is. The effect of
using a nom de guerre during a negotiation is precisely contrary to
confidence-building. And then there are, of course, technical questions
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one. How can we verify that if we are only talking about nom de
guerre? You are the chairman of the Bangsamoro Transition
Commission upon the passage and the plebiscite of the BBL. And the
plebiscite subsequent to that, you will be the head of the government
of the Bangsamoro. So, immediately, the official documents, the funds
that will be entrusted to the transition commission will be under your
control.
So, again, the question of your identity is something that
becomes central. Although at this point, in a legal context, it is in fact,
I would say, maybe a tangential issue. But when we proceed further
along this process, it no longer is a tangential issue. So, that is why
there are concerns that have been made public by not only the
legislators but also in the general public and other commentators.
So, perhaps to clarify all of these, Mr. Iqbal, what is your true
name?
MR. IQBAL. Can I first provide context on what you have
stated?
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). You may provide context
but please answer that question, what is your true name?
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MR. IQBAL. The government has known everything about me,
engaged in the government for 42 years. So, I think nothing can be
hidden from the government, they know it. So, I think the
government should answer for that, not from me because, you know, I
will provide context. First, in our point of view, for other people who
understand where we are coming from and we also understand where
other people are coming from, in the context of a revolutionary
struggle, the engagement between government and the MILF is, as I
said, is a political engagement. But before that, you know, the MILF is
a revolutionary struggle and as a revolutionary organization, we want
to achieve our objective through armed struggle, meaning, through the
use of arms. But in the course of times, then we have come to a point
that it is better to talk peace rather than to continue the war because
we know that we cannot defeat the government conventionally
because the government has all the materials: they have tanks, they
have airplanes, naval boats, etcetera, etcetera. So, we cannot defeat
the government in a conventional warfare. But in the same manner,
government cannot defeat us in a guerilla warfare because we can
always survive and it has been proven for 42 years that we are still
here so that better part of judgment for government and the MILF--
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THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). I am sorry, Chairman, we
are wandering very far away from the question, very simple question.
MR. IQBAL. No, but I am providing, Your Honor, a context so
that--
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). And I think the person who
can finally verify your identity is you, not the government. So, again, I
ask the question, Sir, who are you? What is your name?
MR. IQBAL. I am coming to that, Your Honor, if you would
permit me to continue very briefly only.
So, on that statement I said that it is better for both parties to
talk peace and that was the start why we started to talk peace in 1997.
And then, you know, the position of government is really from a
position of--strict position because, you know, in a negotiation, the
government and the MILF as in any other negotiation would start from
a position and from that position they will try to talk, they will try to
compromise, it is not about getting, it is not about giving but giving
and getting, and getting and giving until such time that we sign all the
documents, almost 100 documents already, Your Honor. And then the
most important documents that we signed are the framework
agreement on the Bangsamoro and the comprehensive agreement on
the Bangsamoro. But those are political documents. On the part of
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instance, normalization, government can implement that. But on the
other substantive issues, it cannot be implemented by government
because essentially their ... are instruments to establish.../hsg
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MR. IQBAL. are instruments to establish a legal entity, a
political entity in Mindanao or somethingwhat Im referring is the
Bangsamoro government. So government necessarily has to
undertake a legal process and thats why the Bangsamoro Transition
Commission was constituted composed of representatives coming from
MILF, eight, and seven from government, then they crafted the
Bangsamoro Basic Law, and this is a legal document. Thats why my
appearance here is as chairman of the Bangsamoro Transition
Commission because if my appearance here is as official of the Moro
Islamic Liberation Front which is still a revolutionary organization, I
think I cannot appear here, Your Honor. But my appearance here is
precisely as member of the Bangsamoro Transition Commission so that
when the BBL would be passed by Congress hopefully, a good BBL will
pass Congress, and then it would be ratified by the people, it would be
implemented, that would be the time that everything will normalize
and we can disclose everything, our identities, we can disclose that.
But at this point in time, I request this honorable body not to compel
me to disclose my identity. But I still meet halfway. The government
knows my identity and perhaps its
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). In that case, can we turn to
Secretary Deles?
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Do you know the identity of the gentleman that is here before us
today?
MS. DELES. It is known by government, Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Then what is it? What is
the true name of the gentleman who is the chairman of the
Bangsamoro TransI do not even know what to call him anymore
because it is clear that this is an alias. The government should not
surely the government can share such an important information.
You know, again, in terms of legal issues, this is something that
at this point does not nullify any of the documents that Chairman Iqbal
has signed. But as we move forward, it will become an important issue
because there are questions as to his nationality, questions as to his
status, and exactly who he is. So if the government knows, will the
government share it with the Committee?
MS. DELES. Your Honor, definitely as we move forward and
when the MILF already is fully participating in government, certainly by
that time all of the legal steps to ensure that everything is legal,
certainly Mr. Iqbal, if he were to run for office, would have already
legalized the name that he will be using. But, Your Honor, it is the
Department of Foreign Affairs that received the evidence of his name
when the passport was issued, Your Honor.
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For the Office of the Presidential Adviser on the Peace Process as
had been recounted in the history, this started in 1997. Mr. Iqbal has
been signing all of the papers. He has never disappeared. He has
never been seen to commit any act that made us question that alias.
Mr. Iqbal has stood by everything that he has signed, and the MILF
stands by Mr. Iqbal and everything that he has signed. When this
administration took over and the talks were resumed, we received a
certification of all of their panel members and team members and the
chair that has identified there was Mr. Iqbal
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Madam Secretary, the long
and short of it,
you will not share this information with the Committee?
MS. DELES. Your Honors, we understand that there are still
security threats on him and his family and his
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Madam Secretary, the
gentleman is sitting here in front of all the cameras. There are millions
of people who will see his face.
MS. DELES. Yes, Your Honor, but
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). The question of security
surely is no longer part of the context in which we are operating.
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MS. DELES. Yes, but that is why, Your Honor, in the matter of
his engagement with government in the peace negotiations, he is a
very public person.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Precisely. So
MS. DELES. But he does have a family. He does have a family
that carries his name. He does have children, young children that
carries that name and we know that the MILF still has enemies and
would love to see some problem with him.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). I think we can assure
anybody here that non-combatants are not targets of the AFP, or the
PNP, of any agency in the government.
MS. DELES. The agencies in government, Your Honor, but there
are others that do not want this process to succeed. For Mr. Iqbal and
his family and relations to be submitted to that kind of problem, Your
Honor, which requires that he does invoke his right to privacy, Your
Honor. But in as far as the peace agreement goes, all of the peace
negotiations are public, Your Honor, and here we make accountable
Mr. Iqbal, as we know him.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Yeah. Madam Secretary,
we are all public persons here. And his appointment or designation by
the MILF as chief negotiator and subsequent chairman to the
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Bangsamoro Transition Commission makes him a public person and it
does not, as I said earlier, inspire confidence in anyone when you are
sitting across the table and you are not sure of the identity of the
person you are talking to.
MS. DELES. But we are sure, Your Honor, of everything that Mr.
Iqbal has
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Madam Secretary, you do
understand that does not inspire confidence?
MS. DELES. But, Your Honor, we are negotiating with the MILF.
It is not Mr. Iqbal who is accountable for any of the peace agreements,
and they have designated Mr. Iqbal to be their negotiator and insofar
as that goes, he has never disappeared. He has never used any other
name. He has never declined or denied anything that he has signed,
and the MILF has not declined it, Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Madam Secretary
MS. DELES. That is where we are coming from.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). we are not accusing him
of any such things. We just want to know his name. Is that so much
to ask?
Anyway, the short answer is you will not share with us that
information.
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THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). Mr. Chairman.
MS. DELES. Your Honor, we can check with the Office of the
President about being able to disclose it in an executive session.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Do you know his true
name, Madam Secretary?
MS. DELES. It is on the record, Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). No, not the record. Do you
know? To your own personal knowledge, do you know his true name?
MS. DELES. No, Your Honor, as I have never looked at the
papers that were submitted for all his legal documents.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Mr. Chairman, after Senator Binay.
SEN. BINAY. Mr. Chair.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). Mr. Chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Yes. Yes, Senator
Escudero, after Senator Nancy as OIC-Chair
SEN. BINAY. Mr. Chair, just to reiterateSecretary Deles, hindi
nyo ho alam?
MS. DELES. Your Honor, I know the name but I do notwhen
you say, Do you know to your personal knowledge, Your Honor, I do
not have that document, but government does have it.
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SEN. BINAY. How about Chairman Ferrer, do you know his real
name?
MS. CORONEL-FERRER. Yes, Your Honor.
SEN. BINAY. Kailan nyo ho nalaman iyong totoong pangalan
niya?
MS. CORONEL-FERRER. When I was doing my research on the
armed conflicts in the Philippines way back in the 1990s, Your Honor.
SEN. BINAY. So what is his real name?
MS. CORONEL-FERRER. That matter, Your Honor, I think there
are privacy and security issues involved here and whatever we say can
affect the lives of people who are related to him. Therefore, Your
Honor, I think the right to privacy is a superior right that belongs to
any public official, even public official has the right to privacy.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Mr. Chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Senator Escudero.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Ginoong Iqbal, mayroon po bang tao na nagngangalang
Mohagher Iqbal maliban sa inyo?
MR. IQBAL. I only know of one, me.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Saan nyo po nakuha iyong pangalan? Kaya
po kasi tinatanong mula sa legal na perspektiba kung ano ang totoong
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pangalan nyo dahil baka may naliligaw ho diyan sa gilid-gilid, kung
saan mang parte ng bansa o ng Malaysia o kung saan man na
nagdadala din po ng ganyang pangalan at siya iyong totoong
Mohagher Iqbal. Hindi naman po kasi Peter Pan iyong ginamit nyo.
Posibleng may taong nagtataglay ng ganyang pangalan. You may
have not met him yet but its possible, correct me if Im wrong, that
there is a person with that name.
MR. IQBAL. We cannot discount that but I dont know.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Posible po.
Ang Iqbal po ba ay normal na apelyido sa Maguindanao kung
saan man po kayo pinanganak?
MR. IQBAL. Well, I do not want to sound philosophical, Your
Honor, but possibilities are unending.
SEN. ESCUDERO. General Catapang, sabi po ni Ginoong Iqbal
alam daw ng gobyerno lahat. Matagal nang kalaban ng pamahalaan
ang MILF bago po sila pumirma sa mga usaping pangkapayapaan at
kasunduang pangkapayapaan. Alam po ba ng AFP ang totoong identity
ni Ginoong Iqbal na kalaban sa matagal na panahon ng AFP?
MR. CATAPANG. Mr. Chair, Your Honor, to my knowledge, we
dont know the real name of Mr. Iqbal.
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SEN. ESCUDERO. Kaya po siguro hanggang ngayon hindi pa rin
po natin nasusupil ang anumang problema doon.
Hindi ho talaga, sir?
MR. CATAPANG. To my personal knowledge, Your Honor.
SEN. ESCUDERO. No, to the knowledge of the AFP speaking as
the chief of staff.
MR. CATAPANG. No, Your Honor/cbg
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MR. CATAPANG. No, Your Honor.
SEN. ESCUDERO. You do not?
MR. CATAPANG. Yes, we do not know, Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN MARCOS). Just to interject.
Would you have access to that information as the chief of staff of
the AFP? Because Secretary Deles has said the government has this
information. Do you have access to that information?
MR. CATAPANG. We do not have access but well find out,
Your Honor.
SEN. ESCUDERO. So sa hinaba-haba ho ng panahon, mahigit
na kumulang apatnapung taon nang bakbakan diyan sa Mindanao,
Ginoong Iqbal, matagal na ho kayong nakikipaglaban sa gobyerno,
hindi ba? How many years, sir, 40? Even longer.
MR. CATAPANG. Forty-two years.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Forty-two years. So sa apatnaput-
dalawang taong pakikipaglaban ng mga Muslim rebels, Moro rebels sa
Mindanao, the AFP never thought it was relevant to find out the real
identity of the leaders of the revolutionary and rebel groups there, sir?
Is that what youre telling us?
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MR. CATAPANG. Your Honor, for that particular instance, Mr.
Iqbal, we treated that name as the true name. We havent any
information that this is just a nom de guerre.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Mr. Chairman, for the record, I know that
there are certain rights to privacy, nauunawaan po namin iyon, Dr.
Ferrer, Secretary Deles. Alam din po naming may security concerns
pero may batas po. Ang anumang kasunduang pirmahan niyo,
anumang confidence building ang pirmahan niyo, hindi ho kayang
baguhin kung anong nakalagay sa batas.
Halimbawa po, Ginoong Iqbal, mayroon po ba kayong bank
account?
MR. IQBAL. Sa Mohagher Iqbal, yes.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Pinagbabawal po ng Anti-Money Laundering
Law na gumamit ng ibang pangalan. Ang puwede po lamang gamitin
ayon sa Anti-Money Laundering Law ay iyong totoo na pangalan, know
your client rule nga po. So even in bank accounts, you are using
Mohagher Iqbal, sir?
MR. IQBAL. I cannot discuss that, Your Honor, because I am
not a lawyer. I do not want to self-incriminate myself.
SEN. ESCUDERO. No. All Im saying, sir, you have a bank
account but its in the name of Iqbal.
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MR. IQBAL. Yeah.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Pangalawa, gaano po kami kasigurado,
halimbawa, alam ko po kasi ginagamit niyo iyong nom de guerre dahil
nagtatago maliban sa seguridad, dahil may mga kasong naka-file laban
sa kanya.
May I ask Secretary Deles without asking the name yet and
insisting on you giving the name, to your knowledge, are there cases
filed against the real identity of Mr. Iqbal thats why he is using a nom
de guerre?
MS. DELES. To my knowledge, no, sir.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Dr. Ferrer, maam?
MS. CORONEL-FERRER. There is no case filed against Mr.
Iqbal or any of the names that he uses whether as a nom de plume or
as nom de guerre.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Iyong totoong pangalan po niya, may kaso
po ba laban sa kanya sa totoong pangalan niya?
MS. CORONEL-FERRER. Wala po kaming alam na kaso na
naka-file na ginagamit ang kanyang tunay na pangalan.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Posibleng mayroon, hindi lang po niyo
alam.
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MS. CORONEL-FERRER. Wala po kaming alam na may kaso.
Hindi po posible, ang alam po namin, wala.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Ang alam niyo poy wala. So wala. Dapat
alam niyo po lahat, hindi ba, dahil wala. Wala po.
MS. CORONEL-FERRER. Iyon po ang sinabi ko, wala po akong
alam na kaso na nakasampa sa pangalanin any of the names of Mr.
Iqbal whether his aliases or his real name.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Or his real name?
MS. CORONEL-FERRER. Yes, sir.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Ginoong Iqbal, nagbabayad po ba kayo ng
buwis or mula noong pumirma po kayo ng kasunduan, nagbabayad po
ba kayo ng buwis o hindi po?
MR. IQBAL. That follows po.
SEN. ESCUDERO. I understand if you say, no.
MR. IQBAL. That follows po sa pangalan na iyan.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Nire-require din po kasi ng batas natin na
kailangan totoong pangalan din ang ibigay sa pagbabayad ng buwis.
Immigration Act, iyon lang po tila ang nasunod, na iyong passport
ninyo ay dinadala po noon iyong totoo niyong pangalan.
MR. IQBAL. Kasi alam po ninyo, gaya ng sinabi ko kanina,
iyong personality ko po, dalawa kasi iyan, as a revolutionary leader
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natin dito sa Mindanao. I do not want to say this but I have to be very
frank that we are still in a state of conflict, nandiyan pa rin ang
conflict. Kaya nga ang gobyerno at saka MILF, pumirma ng ceasefire
agreement para matigil po iyong putukan and then nag-usap tayo.
Iyang pag-uusap natin, marami tayong napirmahan na document. Ito
po ang napirmahan, napakakapal, from 1997. So dahil doon, marami
tayong napirmahan, iyong FAB at saka CAB. And then iyon nga, sabi
ko kanina, political documents. Hindi ho kaya ng gobyerno i-
implement iyong political documents. We need a legal document.
Kaya nga ho, ginawa po natin iyong Bangsamoro Basic Law, legal
document at nasa kamay niyo po iyan, iyong legal document na iyon.
Pag maipasa na iyan po and then at the same time mayroon tayong
normalization process, pag nakaya po natin, nagawa po natin ang
lahat ng proseso na iyan, magno-normal po. At saka everything na
tungkol sa amin ay malalaman ng gobyerno ng Pilipinas. Even the
Moro Islamic Liberation Front, if everything is implemented will become
a social movement. Thats why we are organizing a political party
because we will engage in election. Ang hawak ng gobyerno iyong
mananalo sa election kasi from arms to democratic struggle na po
iyan.
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SEN. ESCUDERO. I agree po.
MR. IQBAL. So ang pakiusap po namin, dapat tingnan po natin
iyong proseso na ganyan kasi pag ang trato po sa issue na ito ay
purely legal po, hindi niyo kami maintindihan kasi iba iyong personality
namin.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Hindi lang po purely legal. Nauunawaan po
namin. Sa katunayan, iyong tanong ni Senator Marcos kanina, sabi
niya walang epekto ito sa legalidad ng mga dokumentong pinirmahan
pero sa kumpiyansa, ika nga, na binubuo sa pagitan ng pamahalaan at
ng MILF. Ang tanong ko po, kanino po kayo natatakot at kanino po
kayo takot kung bakit ayaw niyong ilahad ang inyong totoong
pangalan, sa militar po ba kayo natatakot?
MR. IQBAL. Its not a matter of fear because when we joined
the Moro National Liberation Front and then eventually the Moro
Islamic Liberation Front, we know that death is part of it. And we are
willing to undertake that if it is necessary.
SEN. ESCUDERO. But you said, security reasons. Kanino po
kayo natatakot na may security threat
MR. IQBAL. No, not just the security, Your Honor, of my
person, not just of the MILF but its a complex issue that would be
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pa ho normal ang situation.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Sir, hindi normal in relation to who, to
government?
MR. IQBAL. Hindi pa natatapos ang problema. Ang confict
natin nandidito pa. Habang hindi na-resolve ang problema, hindi
naipasa ang BBL, halimbawaIm not threatening because I do not
want to picture what I am saying here as something threatening. No.
The MILF has never been known to threaten people, to threaten the
government because the government is an institution. Pero pag
naayos natin iyong problema po at, halimbawa, naipasa ang
magandang BBL at naging normal na ito, normal na ang buhay namin.
Hintayin po natin iyan. Then everything will be laid bare.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Last two points, Mr. Chairman.
So Ginoong Iqbal, sabi niyo, alam naman ng gobyerno, alam
naman nila lahat. So kung hihilingin namin sa gobyerno iyan, isa-
subpoena namin sa gobyerno iyan at sinabi ng gobyerno,
makakaapekto po ba iyan sa usaping pangkapayapaang nangyayari
ngayon?
MR. IQBAL. Your Honor, I cannot make comment on that.
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SEN. ESCUDERO. So ano pong ibig sabihin noon? Posibleng
makaapekto dahil bastat hindi manggaling sa inyo, puwede naming
kunin mula sa DFA?
MR. IQBAL. Kasi, alam ho ninyo, Your Honor, isang salita,
halimbawa, napakarami po ang karugtong po niyan. So I do not want
to self-incriminate myself.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Example, Ginoong Iqbal, dito po kasi ang
pinanggagalingan namin. Kung pumirma po si Secretary Deles na
Snow White at pumirma po si Dr. Ferrer na Cinderella dahil takot din
po sila pag hindi natuloy itong usaping ito, baka iyong pamilya nila
habulin ninyo, hindi ho ba iyong epekto sa parte ng inyong mga
kasamahan, kukuwestiyunin ho kayo, Bat hindi nila ginagamit iyong
totoo nilang pangalan? Doon po kami nanggagaling. Nais din po
namin ipaunawa sa inyo iyong pinanggalingan namin. Nauunawaan ko
na rebolusyonaryo ang pinanggagalingan po ninyong organisasyon,
subalit sa puntong ito na umaangat na, above water na, ika nga,
nagiging legal na po lahat, hindi naman po siguro ninyo dapat ikagulat
o ipintas kanino man, kabilang na kami, kung hilingin namin na
malaman at alamin iyong totoong katauhan ng kaharap at kausap po
namin. Hindi sa darating pang panahon, hindi pag tumakbo na kayo
sa election, hindi dahil iyon ang nasa passport ninyo. Pero ngayon,
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ito, totoo po, maliit na bagay lang ito, mas malaking bagay ang peace
process, mas importante ang BBL. Kung totoo po iyon, bat hindi niyo
po mapagbigyan iyong maliit na bagay? Bat po napapalaki ito at bat
hanggang ngayon, gobyerno man o kayo o AFP man o sinumang
ahensya ng gobyerno, parang ayaw ibigay itong napakaliit na bagay
kung talagang maliit na bagay lamang po ito?
MR. IQBAL. Well, at first glance, it says more thing. But if you
look at it deeply, its something that is very, very complicated and a
complex issue. Thats why, hindi ho basta-basta na papayag kami na
ilalahad namin everything. Kaya nga, sinabi ko nga rin kanina, hindi
pa tayo tapos, hindi pa tapos ang conflict dito sa Pilipinas. Pag
natapos na iyong problema rito sa Mindanao, everything will be laid
bare. I promise that and we promise that.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Mr. Chairman, in the next hearing, may I
ask that we invite the DFA for them to shed light on this and bring the
necessary documents on the matter?
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN MARCOS). Certainly. The committee
secretary is so instructed.
To get back to the point that Senator Escudero was trying to
make. Kayo mismo ang nagsabi na sa unang tingin, ito ay maliit
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mahalaga itong usapan na ito, naging importante at itoy napapag-
usapan.
So again, in the interest of the peace process/cmn
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THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). of the peace process,
such a detail would be a big help in inspiring confidence I think not
only with the legislators, not only with the government but also the
general public. Dahil ang pakiramdam ng taongbayan ay sinasabi,
Bakit hindi na lang magsabi ng totoo, ano ba naman iyon? Eh
papaano naman tayo, kawawa naman masyado ang Republika ng
Pilipinas, iyong kausap natin sa negotiation ay hindi man magsabi kung
ano iyong tunay niyang pangalan. So again, Chairman, it is a small
thing and it is a complex thing but it is important for the confidence of
all involved in this peace process that we know the true identity of the
person that we are dealing with.
SEN. SOTTO. Mr. Chairman?
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). Mr. Chairman?
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). So perhaps we could--
MR. IQBAL. With due respect, Your Honor, again I would
repeat I do not want to sound philosophical but I have to be very
frank. The government of the Philippines and MILF are engaged in a
peace process. As a peace process, mayroon iyang mga steps po na
hindi mo pwedeng--halimbawa, Step 5 hindi mo pwedeng ilagay iyan
sa Step 2. Kailangan sundin mo iyong proseso po. In a peace process
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darating ang panahon we can do that.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). Mr. Chairman?
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Senator Guingona.
SEN. SOTTO. Just a statement, Mr. Chairman, so that I yield
the floor to Senator Guingona afterwards.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). Yes, I yield.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Senator Sotto.
SEN. SOTTO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I dont know about the others or the other members of the
Senate. But the BBL is a very important piece of legislation. I prefer
discussing it with persons that I know. So therefore, I will just talk to
you, Mr. Chairman, during the plenary.
Thank you.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Thank you, Senator Sotto.
Yes, Professor Ferrer.
MS. CORONEL-FERRER. Your Honor, we would like to
manifest that last Friday, we provided your Committee as well as the
Committee of Senator Guingona and Senator Defensor-Santiago a copy
of the credentials of the MILF that was submitted to us when we
restarted negotiations in February 2011. And I have the facsimile of
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Murad saying that, By virtue of the powers and authority vested in me
as chair of the Central Committee-MILF, the MILF Peace Panel is
hereby authorized to negotiate with the government of the Philippines
for the GPH-MILF peace talks namely-- enumerating the name of the
members of the peace panel(1) Mohagher Iqbal, chairman; Datu
Michael Mastura, member; Maulana Bobby Alonto, member; Abdullah
Camlian, member; Abhoud Syed Lingga, member; Antonio Kinoc,
alternate member. MILF peace panel secretariat, Jun Mantawil, head;
Mike Pasigan, members; Muhajirin Ali, member. Accept my usual high
esteem and best regards. Signed, Al Haj Murad Ebrahim.
This is the document that authorizes the team of Mr. Iqbal to
negotiate the agreements. There has never been any question as to
who the Mr. Iqbal sitting in the talks all this time and who the Mr. Iqbal
was or is that signed the documents in the comprehensive agreement
on the Bangsamoro. Unless some other entity claims otherwise that
he is the Mr. Iqbal who signed the document, then there is no problem
with the existing documents.
May I also say, Your Honor, that the use of aliases certainly all
the laws that were cited not only in todays hearing but also in the
previous hearing in Congress applies to all individuals especially
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produced by the Central Bank during the time of the former President
Joseph Estrada. It is signed by the President. It says here, Joseph
Ejercito Estrada, Pangulo ng Pilipinas. I dont think that there is any
question as to the legality of this legal tender, Your Honor, even
though it was signed with an alias. So for the records, sir
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). Mr. Chairman?
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Madam Professor, his
designation by the MILF has not been called into question anywhere,
certainly not here. So thank you for that.
MS. CORONEL-FERRER. But the identity, Your Honor, does
not only have to do with the name. The identity has to do with the
biometrics, the fingerprints, the face. I dont think that there is any
mask that disguises his real face. He can be called by different names
but the fact that he is the one and the same person who signed this
document.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Well, that is perhaps
acceptable for those who are familiar with him but there are millions
more who are not. That is why this issue of his true name becomes
important. If you have doubt with him for three, four years, you know
who he is, you have seen him everyday for a very long time, fine. But
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that concern that we were not sure who we are dealing with. Yes, he
is the designated negotiator; yes, he is the designated chairman of the
Bangsamoro Transition Commission but we do not even know his
name. That seems to me a very unusual and peculiar situation.
Senator Guingona.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). Thank you, Mr.
Chairman.
My first question is to Mr. Iqbal.
Mr. Iqbal, how long have you been a member and a negotiator of
the MILF?
MR. IQBAL. The MILF has four negotiators. The chief
negotiator--
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). How long, how long,
how long?
MR. IQBAL. Im just trying to explain it. From 1997 up to the
middle of 2000, I was a member of the MILF negotiating panel. Then in
2000, there was an all-out war against the MILF. And then it resumed
in Kuala Lumpur. It was already the diplomatic state of the negotiation
under the facilitation of Malaysia. So I was not part of that peace
panel of the MILF from 2001 up to the middle of 2003. And then on
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panel of the MILF was headed by Vice Chairman Al Haj Murad Ebrahim.
So when Salamat died on July 13, Murad Ebrahim took over as
chairman of the MILF peace panel. So there was a replacement of the
MILF peace panel, and that was me. From July 29 up to today, I am
still the chief negotiator of the Moro Islamic Liberation Front.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). So all in all, on a more
or less basis, no need to be very, very pinpoint accurate, how many
years?
MR. IQBAL. I think 15 years.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). Fifteen?
MR. IQBAL. Yes.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). How long has the MILF
been negotiating with the government?
MR. IQBAL. Formallyinformally, since the time of his late
father there was already an informal contact. But formally, it was on
January 7, 1997 up to today.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). More or less, how many
years?
MR. IQBAL. More or less, 42 years.
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THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). Forty-two years. So
formally or informally all those 42 years, what was the status of the
MILF, was it a legal entity or was it a revolutionary force?
MR. IQBAL. Well, very clearly, it is a revolutionary
organization.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). Okay, thank you.
MR. IQBAL. Because the MILF does not register its name, it
has no bank accounts, etcetera, etcetera. So its a revolutionary
organization.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). Agreed, agreed.
Professor Ferrer, is it not true that a revolutionary force by its
very nature does not operate under the laws of the state against which
it is at odds?
MS. CORONEL-FERRER. That is the nature of an anti-state
armed group, Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). Ill take that as a yes?
MS. CORONEL-FERRER. Yes, Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). Okay. So if a
revolutionary force is outside the jurisdiction of a state, it also follows
then that the laws of that state cannot be applied or would be
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correct, Professor Ferrer?
MS. CORONEL-FERRER. Yes, Your Honor. Unless they are
arrested on the basis of some other crime, Your Honor, that is
prohibited by our Constitution.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). Fine, fine. But on a
theoretical basis, as a general rule, concepts like the use of aliases,
concepts like rebellion can only be put against them, charged against
them once they are physically arrested/rjo
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THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). once they are
physically arrested. But conceptually, they are outside the ambit of
the law. Thats why they are called rebels, rebelde kanino? Rebelde
sa gobyerno. So kung rebelde sa gobyerno, hindi kinikilala iyong mga
batas. Iyon po ang nature ng revolutionary government. Are we in
agreement?
MS. CORONEL-FERRER. Yes, Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). So, therefore, it is not
proper to look at this problemI wont even call it a problemlook at
this issue of Mr. Iqbals having an alias as a legal problem because we
cannot look at it using the eyeglasses of a legal framework because
this is not legal, this is something bigger than legal. It is political, are
we correct?
MS. CORONEL-FERRER. Yes, Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). Thank you.
And therefore, if it is political, it is, I would say faulty to use any
legal laws or legal concepts on somebody who is operating beyond the
jurisdiction, beyond the ambit of the state over which he is actually
rebelling, am I correct?
MS. CORONEL-FERRER. Yes, Your Honor.
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THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). Secondly, Mr. Iqbal has
stated that there are security concerns thats why he does not want to
reveal his name. He has a family, may apo pa nga yata si Mr. Iqbal.
And we must infuse culture here. Kailangang kilalanin ang kultura ng
ating mga kapatid down south. Kung magsala ka sa isang tao, lalo na
kung iyong honor ng tao, kung magsala ka, kung babalikan ka, at hindi
ka babalikan sa pamamagitan ng pag-file ng kaso sa regional trial
court, hindi ganoon iyon. Babalikan ka, babawian ka at kung hindi ka
mahanap, iyong pamilya mo ang hahanapin at iyong pamilya mo ang
babalikan. At kung hindi mahanap iyong pamilya mo mismo, iyong
clan mo, iyong relatives mo ang hahanapin, iyong clan mo ang
babalikan.
Iyon po ang ibig sabihin ng security issues. Kaya nga hindi rin
pwede, lets say, the concepts of witness protection program ng DOJ
diyan down south kasi kailangang ipasok mo iyong buong angkan niya.
The whole clan must be under the witness protection program. Thats
already impossible.
So we must understand the culture. The culture is different,
thats why the security issue is very, very complex.
My third point, we have been dealing with Mr. Iqbal since 2001
as he says. So many years and he has used that name. The MILF
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they have never repudiated it. In fact, they have even enforced it in
Malaysia and in other countries all over the world. Therefore, Mr.
Chairman, I do not see any problem. I do not see any problem with
Mr. Iqbals using the present alias as long as we continue the peace
process, the peace process until its final end. And Mr. Iqbal has said,
once the final end is achieved, they cease to be a revolutionary force
and they now form part of the state and therefore they voluntarily,
because of that peace pact, will submit to the laws of the Republic.
And at that point, we heard Mr. Iqbal, he did promise to reveal his
name.
So, Mr. Chairman, I would like to disagree that this is an
important issue. I would like to say that this is an issue, yes, but this
is an issue which should not hamper the proceedings of the peace
process until its final end. After all, what is the ending? The ending is
the MILF will join the government, the MILF will be part of the state,
the MILF will follow the laws of the state. Iyon ang gusto nating lahat.
And they have promised, Mr. Iqbal has promised, at that time, he will
reveal his real name.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). To recapitulate, Senator
Guingona, again, at the very outset, we recognize that the legal issues
at this point in the process are still secondary. However, the issues as
to the gestures of good faith, the confidence that everybody involved
in the process can have, in the personalities that they are dealing with,
certainly is not helped by the fact that we cannot even gain the true
identity of the chief negotiator of the MILF. And I think that all the
legal points that you have made are certainly taken but the point is not
that there is a legal impediment to the peace process because of the
use of an alias but there is impediment in terms of the confidence that
we feel when we are negotiating with someone who we do not even
know the true identity of.
For the record, I have examined this question a little bit before
coming to this hearing: None of the rebel groups who have signed
peace agreements with any of the governments have used aliases.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Mr. Chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). And so that is a very
peculiar and singular situation in the Philippines.
Yes, Senator Escudero.
MS. DELES. Your Honor, just to correct. There was one name
in one of the agreements signed between government and the NDF
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Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). No, no, no. I said in other
countries.
MS. DELES. In other countries.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Yeah.
MS. DELES. Your Honor, we have. In Nepal, for example, the
Comprehensive Peace Accord was signed under an alias. Also in
Guatemala and in Columbia now ongoing, Your Honor. It is not a
unique practice, Your Honor.
When the peace negotiations start, when the conflict is still on a
very high level, then it is the persona of the combatant that emerges,
Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Madam Secretary, we are
aware of those situations. We are way past that already. We are
institutionalizing a sub-government and we are way past the peace
agreement. In fact, the basis of this draft BBL is the peace agreement.
Surely, those examples that you gave, we are not in the same stages
as those.
But anyway, never mind
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MS. DELES. No, Your Honor, these are final peace agreements
that were also signed in Nepal, in Guatemala
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Precisely.
MS. DELES. that were signed under an alias, Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Very well.
MS. DELES. And the process is not finished. In fact, the
airwaves have been very full saying that the BBL will not be signed.
This is really a very strong warning, a very strong signal that there is a
segment particularly in the lawmaking instruments of government that
in fact this process may not be completed, Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Well, I do not want to
argue this point as again, it is tangential. But the point is that we are
at a different stage in the process of peace negotiations than the
examples that you have given.
Senator Escudero has some
SEN. ESCUDERO. Before we leave the issue, just to set the
record straight.
Secretary Deles or Dr. Ferrer, iyong pangalan po bang Al Hadj
Murad Ebrahim, is this his real name or is this an alias?
Maam, please.
MS. CORONEL-FERRER. The MILF will be the best.../jun
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MS. CORONEL-FERRER. The MILF will be the best entity to
confirm or deny that.
SEN. ESCUDERO. No, no, no. You, maam, Im asking you.
You should know if this is their real name or their alias.
MS. CORONEL-FERRER. Yes, Your Honor. I know personally
the status of the name but again, for the same arguments, reasons of
security and privacy, we cannot confirm or deny.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Maam, even if that is his real name, you will
not confirm nor deny that that is his real name? Maam, if he is using
his real name, I guess you can tell us that that is his real name
MS. CORONEL-FERRER. The MILF has said that almost 100
percent of the members of the central committee are using aliases.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Ginoong Iqbal, iyong pangalan po bang Al
Hadj Murad Ibrahim, is this an alias or his real name?
MR. IQBAL. Your Honor, would you permit me to ask first Hadji
Murad before I answer that question?
SEN. ESCUDERO. I am assuming that its an alias because if it
were his real name, hes not hiding.
Sir, forgive me, Dr. Ferrer. Ginamit na ho niya ang totoo niyang
pangalan. Ayaw nyo pang aminin kung totoo niyang pangalan iyon.
Siya na nga inaamin na niya. So, ang papalabasin po natin, ginamit
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niya iyong totoong pangalan niya pero hindi niya aaminin at hindi nyo
aaminin dahil baka alias iyon.
MR. IQBAL. Your Honor, kasi sa amin, within the leadership of
the MILF, mayroon kaming tinatawag na sensitivity at saka mutual
respect. So, hindi ko
SEN. ESCUDERO. I understand that. Now, on the part
MR. IQBAL. But I just want to volunteer, Your Honor, if I may
give a little information. I dont know if this information has relevance
to our discussion, about the use of aliases. The government of the
Philippines has been dealing with the MNLF since your father, your late
father. And I understand that Nur is not the exact name of Nur
Misuari. Half. Kalahati lang kasi, the real name of Misuari is Nurul
Hadji Misuari. So, I dont know if there is relevance to the current
discussion about aliases.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS).. I was actually going to get
to that point. But let me allow Senator Escudero to finish.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Tapusin ko lang ho iyong listahan para lang
malaman natin.
Iyong Datu Michael Mastura, is that a real name or an alias?
These are the MILF negotiators, sir.
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MR. IQBAL. He was once a member of the Philippine Congress.
I still cannot say here with certainty that that is his real name or
assumed name.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Secretary Deles, is that the real name of a
former member of Congress whos part of the peace panel.
MS. DELES. That is the name that he has used, Your Honor, as
congress person and as a member of the panel.
SEN. ESCUDERO. So, is that his real name or an alias, maam?
You dont know?
MS. DELES. Your Honor, as explained already, where names
have been used, different names have been used, assumptions of
names have been used, for many reasons in the area, Your Honor, I
will say I do not have the document by which I could say for certainty
that this is his real name.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Maulana Bobby Alonto. May nickname pa.
Is that a real name or an alias? Mr. Iqbal will no longer answer for the
same reason, Secretary Deles, Dr. Ferrer, real name po ba ito or alias,
to your knowledge? Just for the record, maam.
MS. DELES. Your Honor, I would like to say that we will have
to give the same response because what I know and then some, you
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know, you will ask for documents which I will not have, Your Honors, I
would
SEN. ESCUDERO. I will not ask, maam. Im just saying to the
best of your knowledge because youve been talking to these people.
MS. DELES. To the best of my knowledge, Your Honor?
SEN. ESCUDERO. Yes, ma'am. To the best of your knowledge,
maam, real name, maam?
MS. DELES. Bobby Alonto, yes.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Abdulla Kamlian.
MS. DELES. To the best of my knowledge, Your Honor?
SEN. ESCUDERO. Yes.
MS. DELES. To the best of my knowledge, Your Honor, and with
all the reservations that I have put forward, Yes.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Abhoud Syed Lingga. I hope I pronounced it
correctly and gave justice to the name.
MS. DELES. Yes, Your Honor. He is an academic, hes been
teaching in MSU. He is not a member of the central committee, Your
Honor, the same with Al Camia (?).
SEN. ESCUDERO. Antonio Kinok, real name po ba ito o
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MS. DELES. He is a Blaan, Your Honor. So, I dont know what
their practices are in terms of maybe having been using also several
names. I am not sure, Your Honor.
SEN. ESCUDERO. At some point in time, Secretary Deles, as
Chairman Marcos said, we would have to get the real names of these
people because you would be issuing appointments.
MS. DELES. Definitely, Your Honor, yes.
SEN. ESCUDERO. But it would serve you well to know if this is
indeed their real name at this point in time or not.
MS. DELES. Your Honor, what has been important to us is that
we know who the organization is and that they have put forward
representatives by which they have stood by, by which we have a
paper that identifies the names of the ones who are sitting before us
and with whom there has never been any question of changes of
identities and identities connected to these names. These persons
connected to these names have signed all the papers, have stood by
these papers, are submitting, have come to Congress several times
under those names and have answered questions, Your Honor. And
never at any point has any of these that have signed any agreement
with government turned their back on what they have signed nor has
the MILF at any time ever said that these persons have signed unduly
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any of these papers. That, Your Honor, is what is important to us. I
know Mr. Iqbal as Mr. Iqbal, Your Honor. He is the one who has come
forward. This is the public persona that is well known. He has not
changed that. He has spoken always here under very close scrutiny
and examination, Your Honor. And as far as that goes, that is what we
stand by, Your Honor. This is what the peace process stands for. And
as I said again, this is not unique in this country. This has been the
practice in many peace negotiations in different parts of the world.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Maam, paulit-ulit nyo pong sinasabi iyan.
Nauunawaan po namin iyan. Sa totoo lang, hindi na ho kailangang
paulit-ulit pang sabihin. Iyon na ho ang sinabi ni Senator Marcos
simula pa lang. We are not saying that the documents he signed are
questionable. We are not saying that it is legally infirmed. No, were
not. What were simply asking is, tapos na iyong giyera, matagal na
tayong may ceasefire, nag-uusap na tayo ng harapan, inaayos na
natin at isinasabatas pa nga iyong mga kasunduang pinasukan at
pinirmahan. Hindi ito dapat maging hadlang sa peace process, tama
si Senator Guingona. Pero hindi rin iyon dapat magsilbing tinga sa
peace process. Maliit na bagay lang iyon pero parang tinga sa ngipin,
nakakairita na dapat sana isantabi na sa pamamagitan ng simpleng
kasagutan. Walang threat. Kaya naman sigurong sabihin iyan ng
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peace panel. Walang threat na nagmumula sa PNP, AFP o pamahalaan
laban kay Ginoong Iqbal. Iyong mga may ayaw ng peace process,
maski pirmahan pa iyong BBL, ayaw pa rin nila iyan at may threat pa
rin kay Ginoong Iqbal. Mananatili po iyon at hindi kayang baguhin iyon
ng BBL. Kaya hindi porket pinirmahan iyong BBL ay doon lamang din
po sasabihin. Babalikan ko ho. Kung maliit na bagay lang talaga ito,
sana ibigay na. Kung tunay nga at kumplikado naman ito, ay di dapat
talaga pag-usapan at linawagin at hindi pakawalan. Either way,
Congress is simply airing out its concern, questions and clarifications.
Its up to the peace panel really, the MILF if they will address these
concerns, these questions and these doubts. If you dont, Congress
and the Senate will act accordingly.
MS. DELES. Yes, Your Honor. Definitely, we are taking very
seriously and we have listened very carefully to all of the discourse on
aliases. And certainly, this will be a matter for continuing discussion
within government as I believe it will be with the MILF. The thing that
we are sure of, Your Honor, is that as the peace agreement is
completed and that the arrangements that were agreed upon in the
comprehensive agreement becomes legal, certainly all of these will be
settled, Your Honor. And definitely, Your Honor, the Bangsamoro will
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not be put into place, I think, without a public disclosure of everyone
that has been part of this process.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Well, Madam Secretary, I
am glad you agree with us that it cannot be put into place without
clarification on all of these issues. And that is precisely why we are
taking it up today. And that is why this is the issue that has taken up
all this time when we were meant to be here for a different purpose.
We have here with us the chairman of the MNLF central
committee, Ambassador Datu Abdul Alonto. Your Excellency,
Ambassador, I know this is your true name. You have not used an
alias, Ambassador.
MR. ALONTO. Yes, Mr. Chairman, and thank you. As
Shakespeare says, Whats in a name that which we call a rose? By
any other name would smell as sweet. But, of course. . . (nam)
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MR. ALONTO. But, of course, we are not as sweet as the
rose, Mr. Senator, neither Iqbal is sweet as a rose. But may I remind
the good Chairman and good Senator that the MILF is a revolutionary
movement. I know my good brother, younger brother, Mr. Mohagher
Iqbal. In fact, it was my privilege and I am happy that there was
what I did, it proved the truth because Iqbal was one of those that
could have joined the first batch of the Moro National Liberation Front
but I declined and I rejected him, not on the basis that he was not
qualified, not on the basis that because he doesnt know law. In fact,
he was a university student at that time in Manila. These are the kind
of people we need at that time at the organizational stage of the
movement but because I already recruited the brother and another
first cousin I said it will be too much for your family. So I rejected
him, not because I do not like him but I want to sayand I told him,
You will better serve the revolution after the struggle, finish your
studies.
He is a bachelors degree holder now and a masteral degree but
his brother and his first cousin were all martyred. And perhaps as I
have told him the first time I met him because I do not even know he
is Iqbal until I realized when he spoke that he was the same
gentleman that I have rejected in the first batch. And I told him I was
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like your brother. The MILF could have no negotiating team leader
now. But I will respect the position of Mr. Iqbal. If he wants to keep
his name, I respect him for that. But their chance, God willing and we
hope that we can resolve this issue, Mr. Senator and Mr. Chairman,
and, of course
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Thank you.
SEN. BINAY. Mr. Chair.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Thank you, Ambassador.
MR. ALONTO. Yes. Then I suggest if Iqbal wants to maintain
his name, I think there is no legal impediment there, Mr. Senator. I
think he can just do what President Joseph Estrada did, Senator
Jinggoy Estrada did and Ramon Revilla Jr. did, as simple as that. But
meantime, I think we have to respect that and everybody is known
Iqbal is known to the Malaysian facilitators and to his counterparts.
SEN. BINAY. Mr. Chair.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Thank you.
MR. ALONTO. Mr. Chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Yes, please.
MR. ALONTO. May I add more on the personal views that was
raised here by the good Senator?
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THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). On the names that Senator
Escudero brought up.
MR. ALONTO. Because I said he might think that there is
deception here. There is no deception here. I have to respect the
decision of Iqbal.
During the war, Mr. Senator, Alonto-Ibrahim checked in a hotel
in Davao City. Just because he was Alonto-Ibrahim, they thought he
was relative to Abul Khayr Alonto. Right on his room, someone
knocked and shoot him, point-blank. He is dead. Abdul Alonto who
was mistaken for Abul because it is also my nickname, who happens to
be my younger first cousin was killed, shot, half to death in the
presence of his mother, his wife and his only son. And if Ibrahim keep
it, you have to respect that. But the other names, I will tell you, there
is no deception here. I have been listening and he made mention
about Maulana Bobby Alonto.
Mr. Chairman, Maulana Bobby Alonto is Robert Maulana
Marohombsar Alonto, the surname that he is using. He is my first
cousin. The father was with us. And on his maternal using the
Marohombsar name, he is the grandson of the first two Muslim, one of
the first two Muslim generals who graduated by the Philippine
Constabulary School then, now the Philippine Military Academy.
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And Mr. Datu Michael Mastura happens to be Atty. Michael
Mastura who was a former delegate to the 1971 Constitutional
Convention; his real name is Alauya, named after Sultan Alauya
Alonto, the first senator and Sultan Ibrahim(?) who happens to be his
granduncle and he is my cousin but Michael was added by the Notre
Dame University to sound it more Westernized or Americanized or
Christianized. Now I would say Lindon(?) is a professor, he is an
academician. He was my political signatory when he was with us in
the Moro National Liberation Front.