b · 1900. -victoria. b.eport froji 'l'bb select committee ol! ... 'villiam lcy,...

$: B · 1900. -VICTORIA. B.EPORT FROJI 'l'BB SELECT COMMITTEE Ol! ... 'Villiam Lcy, Inspector of Ptn·munent \Yny~ Victorian Railways, called and examined$
1900. -VICTORIA.

B.EPORT

FROJI 'l'BB

SELECT COMMITTEE

Ol!

RAILWAY SPARK ARRESTERS;

TOGETHER "WITH THB

PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE AND MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

OTd<red by the Legislative Assembly to be printed, 29th Auguat, 1900.

1111 !llutto•tl!!: 'ROBT. 8. BJU.IK1 GOV'ER.."Od:E~T PBINTEB, ll'JU.B011'UL

D.-No. 1.-(ls. 6d.]--8113._

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EXTRACTED FROM THE VOTES AND PROCEEDINGS.

WEijiNEjj~A~, 25Tll! .r~;r, ~.

t. &..u.WA.T SP.utK AK:aK!!lT:mae:.-Mr. MeKenzic moved, pursuant to aJIU:nd~ notice, That & Seleet Committee be appointed to inquire ae to whether a better •1 spark arrester u than the one now in use by the Railway Oepa;rtmcnt could be udopt..d; such Committ-ee to consist of }fr. Bowser, Mr. Gavan Duffy, Mr. Gravea, .Mr. Kermedy, Mr. Mvrris&ey, Mr. Sa.ngster, Mr. Wheeler, Mr. H. R. WU1ia.Jt1~ 1 and the MoTer, with power to ~rend for persons, papen, and records, and t& ait on days on which ~ J;ioRAA:fjpe• not meet; three to be the quorum.

Deba.te e:mued. Queation-put a.nd resolved in the affirmative.

TR'fi;RijDA,.Y,, 2N'I 4UGt;TST, ttpO.

5. RAILw.u SPA.lU{ ADnrmts.-Mr. MeKenzie moved, by le&ve~ That leave be given to the Select Committee appointed to inquire as to whether a better "11park arrester" than the one- now in use by the Ra.ilway Depflrtment could he adopted to report the minutea of evidence from time to t.ime.

Qneation-put and naolved in the fllfirmative.

ol£4.

lllll. 18 U I .. 0.

lW 15 B

REPORT.

THE SELECT CoMMITTEE of the Legislative Assembly appointed to inquire as to whether a, hetter "spark arrester" than the one now in use by the Railway Department could be adopted has the honour to report to your Honorable House as follows :-

1. Your Committee ha.~ examined the Chief .Mechanical Engineer, the Engineer for Existing Lines, and several other Railway officers and employes. Numerous communications have been received from persons desirous of giving evidence on the question remitted to your Committee for inquiry.

2. Your Committee finds that it will not be possible to complete the inquiry and report to yom Honorable House before the close of the Session.

3. It is, in the opinion of your Committee, desirable that the evidence which has been proffered should be given on oath.

4. For these reasons the Lieutenant-Governor in Council ha.s been pleased to appoint the members of your Committee a Royal Commission.

5. Your Committee has now the honour to lay before your Honorable House the Minutes of the Evidence taken.

6. During the progress of the inquiry, the "Instructions for the Guidance of Inspectors in the Existing Lines Branch" have come under the notice of your Committee. Regulation No. 143 of these " Instructions" prescribes that "The burning ?f grass must .be commenced ~s soon ~s pat;hes become dry, as by so doing the contmmty of fire IS checked. 1 he burmng-oft must not he commenced before Two p.m." This hour is fixerl in accordance with the provisions of section 2:1 of the Police Offences Act 1890.

Your Committee is of opinion that it would tend to diminish the risk of fires spreading when burning-off operations are in progress if the hours for burning off were left to the discretion of the inspectors.

Your Committee, therefore, recommends that section 22 of the Aet in question should be amended accordingly.

Committee-room, 29th August, 1900.

PROCEEDINGS OF THE 001\11\IITTEE.

WEDNESDAY, 1sT AUGUST, 1900 •

.MembtrB prestm:

Mr. G"v"n Duffy, Mr. Graves,

Mr. Morrissey, lb. Sangster, Mr. Wheeler. Mr. Kennedy,

Mr. :McKenzie, The Clerk of Committees read the extract from the Votea and Proceedings of the 25th July, 1900,

appointing the Committee. Mr. McKenzio was called to the Chair. Committee dcHherated. Ordered-That tho New South Wales Railways Commissioners be requested to furniBh information

as to the spe.rk: nrrester- used in New South Wales, 'vith diagram of same, and results obtained; also if AJvf!.s' patent fuel economizer is used on tho :Xcw South \Vales rnilwu.ysJ rmcl) if ~o, with what result~; and if a New South \Vales Rfl.ilway ofileer conlJ give evidence in Melbourne if the Committee so desired; Queensland, South Anstrnlia, anJ Tasmania to be itlso asked for iufol'matlou

Orderod-Thar. tOe Railway Department bo asked for a rctnrn for last five years of number of claims sent in for fire damage, in what. Jistrict fires occurl'Cd, n.nd action taken in 63-ch case.

Ordered-That tho evidence of some of the Railway oflicers l1e ~aken on \Vednesday next, at eleven o'clock; officers ofLocomotivo Branch to be first examined~ commencing with }lessrg. \Voodroffe-~ Lewis, und Stinton,

Re.tolved-Th.a.t the Committee ask for leave to report the minutes of evidence from tirne to time. Committee adjourned uutil \Vednesday noxt1 at eleven o'clock.

WEDNESDAY, 8TH AUGUST, 1900.

M.,.,.,.. presmt: Mu. McKENZlE~ in the Chair;

Mr. Bowser, lrfr. Morrissey, Mr. Graves, Mr. Sangster, Mr. Kcnnedy, Mr. Wheeler.

An extmctfrom the Votes and Proceedings of the Legislative Assembly of the 2nd August, 19001

empowering the Committee to report the miuutea of evidence from time to time was read. A letter from the Deputy Commissioner of' Railways asking for postponement of date :fixed for

hearing evidence from H.o.ilwa.y officors, owing to illness of the Chief :Mechanicni Engineer (Mr. w~ oodroffe), wa.s read.

Ordered-That Wednesday next, at eleven o'clock, bo fi.xod for the hearing of the officers from the Locomotive Branch.

A letter from James ~le-Intosh, of Hock Bank P.O., asking to be heard as a witness with respect to fire on his property, was read.

Ordered-That .Mr. ~Iclntosh IJe informed that the Committee cannot inquire into individual grievances, hut if he can show that fire was caused hy sparks from An engine, he should write statin~ so, and Committee would then consider desirability of calling him n.s a wituess.

Mr. Hack applied to be heard as a wituess with reference to nn invention of his own. Ordered-That Mr. Hack be informed that Railway officers will first be heard, Applications, in wrlting, to be heard were also submitted from D. Audort:~on, J. Crahtreo, and H.

W. Channing, for Channing'.s Spark Arrester Company. Re$olved-Thn.t after heuring Railwny oiilcere, t.he Committee will consider these requests to be

heard before the Commitlee. I~etter from T. Quinli-ran, Coghill's Creek, to Mr, Holden, M.L.A,, read. Ordered-That reply bo seut to Mr. Holden at.ating scope of inquiry and u.sking for further

informat.ion re arrester u~ed in traction cnglncs by Mr. Qninli van. Telegram from Railwnys Commissioner, Queeusllmd, rt1 information required by the Committee.

1·ead. The Clerk of Comrnit.tees submitted the following documenta received from the Secretary of the

Royal Commission on Stato Forests :-

(1) Letter dated 20th February, 1900, from the Hailways C()nnnissioner, New Smtth \Vales. (2) Letter dutaU 23rd .Februury, I 900, from the Railways Commissioner, Couth Australia. (3) Letter dated 2nd March, 1900, from the Railways Commissioner, Queensland. (4) Samplo of spark arrester used in South Anstrnlia (dntad 12th April, 1900). f5) Letter from Chief Mechanical Enginof>r, Victorian RaHwnys, wjth return as to compensation

paid for fire damage.

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(6) Letter from Chief Mechanical Engineer, Victorian Railways, dut~d 25th January, 1900, with sample of spark arrester if 11 wires to inch 19 B.W.G. used.

(7) Sketch plan o£ arrester used in Soutl1 Anstralie. (8) Sketch plan of arrester used in Queeualaud. (9) Sketch plan of arrester used in New South Wrues.

The Clerk of Comrnittee• also laid befure f..lte Committee an ex'li'Mt from the Eleventh Progress Report of the Royal Commission on State Forests and Timber Reserves as to fires caused by sparks from locomotives.

Mr. lforrissey entered the room .e.ud took his sent. Ordered-That the Crown Law Dejlartment be asked to furnish a eopy of the report of the judgment

given by His Honor Judge Chomley in the 'Case uf Clea:J'y v. fit:t!'trlti::n Railways Commissicmer1 for fire damage, tried RI Benalla about 1894.

Ordered-That the Deputy Raihvays Commis!:iloner be asked to furnish-& list of the engine-dri'\"enl running the express tra.in'5 on tbe Nocth-Ea.stern, Beudigo, and Servicoton lines und: a.lM the names of the drivers of the heavy goods trains on the same lines.

Committee edjonrned until Wednesday next. at eleven o'ol~.

WEDNESDAY, 15TH AUGUST, 1900.

lf~,_., .. llr~ Bows:er, Mr. Gavan Duffy, Mr. Graveo, Mr. Kcnnedy,

M»- M cKal!!Zilt, in the Chair; Mr. Songster, Mr. Wheeler, Mr. H. R. William ..

A letter wa• read ft·om the Railway Department (Chief Mechanical Engineer) forwarding model of smoke box, showing spark arresters in nee ;:m the various Australian railways;: model of -at~h pa.n ammter now being triW on the Victorian railways ; and bag containing cinders taken from the smole box of an engine fitted with the Department's Standard Arrester.

The Committee prooeeded to take eYidenee on the qneEtiou refe'M"ed to it. Thomas Hale WoodrofTe, Chief Mechanical Engineer, Victorian Railways, caUed and examined. W. Stinton, Deput,y Chief Mechanical Engiu.;;er &Dti Workshop :.\iatn'lger, called and examined. Mr. Bowser entered the room nnd took his sent. Examination of witness continued. Mr. Kennedy entered the roQtU and took his seat. Henry Lewis, Lot.:om~?tlve Running Superintendent, Victorian Railways, called and examined. The following letters were laid before tho Committee and read :-

From Ra.ilwn.y Department, with list of enginc.--drivers. From Alexander Jt{cLennnu} Secretary llorris Fuel Saver and SpA.rk Daatroyer Company

Limited. From J. C. Bowd.ng, Secretary Fuel Economizing Company Limited. From Henry AHihon, Deniliquin, re his arrester used on the Deniliquin a.nd Moa.mn Railway. From D~ Anderson, fl.Sking to be allowed to exhibit n. model of his arrester. From Anthony Roberts, St. Arnand, through Mr. :Me Bride, as to • spark arr<!ater uaed by him

on trac:tiou engine. FTom E. Richardeon, for leave to submit an invention for arresting sparks. From A. F. Hack, asking leave to submit his iuvontion for a,rreetiug sparkt. From General Me.nager1 Tasmanian Railw~tys. From Commissioner of Railways, South Australia. From Commissioner of Railwnya, New South Wales. From Thomas Short, C. E., to be heard, re his invention for spark arresting.

Received. Committee deliberattd. Ordered-That the Engineer for Exiating Lioes (Mr. Norman) •nd the Chief Aasiot&nt Engineer

(Mr. Sime) be ee.lled for two o'clock to.morrow. Committee adjou1·ned until to-morrow f a.t two o'clock.

THURSDAY, l6Tn AUGUST, 1900.

Members present: Ma. McKE!!!ZIE, in lho Chair ;

Mr. Bowser, Mr~ Sangetert Mr. Gavan Duffy, Mr. Wheeler, Mr. Gravea, Mr. JI. R. Wllliams. Mr. Morrise.ey,

Charles Ernest Norman, Engineilt to~ Ell.ialing Lines, ~alled and e:to.mlned. Georgo W. Sirns, Chief Assistant lngineer, E:tlsting Lines, Mlled and examined. Ordered-That two inspectors of potmaneut way and lix engine-drivers be called to give eviden~

on Wednesday next. Committee adjourned until Wednesday next, at eleven o'eloek.

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WEDNESDAY, 22ND AUGUST, 1900.

M ~mb~r s pre.sent: MR. McKxNznt, in tbe Cba.ir ;

Mr. Bowser, Mr. Ga.va.n Duffy, Mr. Graves,

Mr. Xennedy, Mr. Sa.ngater, Mr. Wheeler.

Henry Paraons1 Inspector of Permanent Way, Victorian Railways, called and examined. 'Villiam Lcy, Inspector of Ptn·munent \Yny~ Victorian Railways, called and examined. John H.yan. engine-driver, Victorian Railways, Northern Hne1 ea1led and examined. Jobn MitehelJ~ engine-driver, Greo.t Sonthem line, cRlled and examined • • Ja.mes Keekl engine·driver1 Northern line1 between Bendigo and Meibonrne, called and examined. Edwa.nl Fitzgibhonl engine·driver, Sydney express, between Benalla. and Melboume, oa.lled and

exa:mined. Mr. Sangster entered the room and took his seat. Examination of witness continued. Ordered~Tha.t the Railway Department he asked for the papers respecting lire at Faithfull's Creek

Station, about four or five yearA ago, Mr. Gava.n Duffy entered the room antl took hia seat. James Hodgkinson, engine-driver, Eastern line, eaHed and examined. Mr. Wheo1cr entered the room and took his seat. Examination of witness continued. Patrick M.inogu,~. engine-rlriver, Great Southern line, called and examined.

Committee adjourned until '\V ednesd.ay next, at eleven o'clock.

WEDNESDAY, 29TB AUGUST, 1900 •

.'.[embers present: M a. McKENzm, in the Chair ;

Mr. Graves, Mr. Kennedy, Mr# Morrisaey,

The Cbt<irroan submitted hit Draft Report. The Report was read. Paragraphs I to 5 again read, and agreed to. Paragraph 6 again read, amonded, and agreed to~ The Report, as amended, was adopted.

Mr. Sangster, Mr. Wheeler, Mr. H. R. Willioms.

Resolved-That the Chairman present the Report to tbe Legislative Assembly. Committee adjourned.

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MINTJTES OF EVIDENCE.

LIST OF WITNESSES.

PAOJE

liVoodroffe, T. H.) Chief Mechanical EnginoorJ Victorian Rail\\·ays l

Stinton, 1V., Doputy Chief Mechanical Engineer and \Vorkshopa Manager, Victorian Railways 9

Lewis1 H., 'Locomotive Running 8U}1erlntendent~ Victorian Railways 10

Norman, C. E., Engineer for Existing Lint>s, Victorian Railways ... 12

Sims, G. W., Chief Assistant Engineer for ExisUng Lines, Victorian Railways 13

Parsons, Henry, Inspector of Permanent \V ay, Vietorian Railways 15

Ley, \Villiam, Inspector of Permanent \V ay, Victoriu.n Railways 17

Rya.n, John, engine-driver, Victorian Railw11ys 19

Mitchell, John, engine-driver, Victorian Railways 21

Keck, James, engine...drivert Victorian Railways 22

Fitzgibhon, Edward, engine-drhrer, Victorian Railways 23

Hodgkinaon, .Ja.mes1 engine-driver1 Victorian Uailwn.ys 24

Minogue, Patrlck, engine-driver, Victorian Railways 26

MINUTES 0]' EVIDENCE.

• WEDNESDAY, 15TH AUGUST, 1900 .

H•""-• p-:

Ma. McKENZJE, in the Chair ; Mr. Bowsert Mr. Gavan Du:ffv, Mr. Gmves, · Mr. Kennedy,

Tbomas Hale Woodroffe, examined.

!fr. S&ngster, Mr. Wheeler, Mr. H. R. Williams.

l. By the ChaWmt:m.-Wbat is your occnpation ?-Chief Med•anical Engineer, Victorian Railways. 2. I unders't.c'tnd that the evidence to be tenderGd by the Department flas been formulated, so yon

might just give it in your own way, a1Hl questions can be put to you by members of the Committae after~ wards ?-I would suggest tba.t eourse. I have prepared a stal.ement showing the history of the sparks.rrester question up to the present time on the Victorian r11i!ways and in other countries, as far as I have been able to ga.ther from various ~SCientific pn.pers and disctu,sions of the day. I propose to denl with, first, the vurioua arresters that the Depl\rtment have n~;cd in tho Department from the early days. This information has been obtained from officers of the Lra.11ch from records and from my own per.sonal knowledge. The information dates hack to 1862, and I propose to trace the history of the qucf!tion up to t~e present date. The descriptions are illustrated by small sketches on the margin of my notes.-[ The witness read the followt'ng :-J

G&:!WLEMEN,

Victorian Rfl.iJWa.ys, Chief Mechanical F,.ngineerte: Offioot

Melbourne) 13th .. ~ugUBtt 1900.

STATEMENT RE SPARK ARR!>STEilS, VICTORIAN RAILWAYS.

\Yith a '¥"iew of facilitating the work of the Committee, I have prepared a statement which will show the information in the posseSRion oi the Depa.rtment up to da.te, in connexion with tlevices tried and in use for preventing the Ellrea.pe of sparks from th& chimneys and (.,'inders from t·he ash paw:; of locomotivBA in this and other colonies and oountrtcs.

A full-sized model of the smoke box of a "Y" ula.ss (heavy goods} engine with the departmental standard double arrester fixed therein, nlso tracings showing arre:sters1 samples of netting, perforated plates, &c., used in other coh)Jliea rmd countries a:re a.lsv exhibited for the information of the Cmruuittee.

From the information furnished me by offioors of the hr&nch n.nd from records, and also from my own knowl00ge1

I find tbat the various oontrivanoos used by the Department trince 1862 were approximately as IoUow, and shown by small sketches below :-

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HO j'-No. l ~as a eaat-iron ?ODC!lVO deflector, fixed near top of the chir:mey {in eonjunetion with a. wire bonnet p1!\.00d on

top of the nlnmney}, and whiCh were supposed to cast the sparks down mto a receptAcle built :round the chimney. This was a very early application.

'l'his arrester was supplied with engine& reooived from Englaud about 1862, and was not suroessful. And was uot adopted.

No. 2 consisted of venetian shutters or ba.tfle plates plAced inside smoke box agaiusi the tube plate. They were supposed to throw the sparks do'WD. into bottom of smoke box.

This ure.'>t.er was illso supplied with the engines Neeived from England about 1862, and had to be a.ba.ndoned. It interfered with the steaming.

81'13A. 8

T. H. Woodrolfe, 15th August, 1900. 2

No. 3 was n. conical cage constructed of about f-in. round iron, made fast to top of blast pipe, extending upwards into chimney. This wao; put into use abuut HnO, and was in use several years, but diU not prove very effective in arresting dangerous sparks.

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No. 4. About 1875 a eurved grid or gnting, m[lde with bars of about ·it-in. round wire, spaces l6 inch, and made fast to top of blast pipe and sides of smoke box, was introdueed.

This was in use several years and gave better results than those formerly in use. No. 5 was made from similar material to No. 4, but was fiat and fixed horizontally aeross the smoke box. The

wires in this aiTester were about 1~ ineh apart and spaces the same. This arrester was in use in 1880, and proved more successful and easier made than the foregoing.

Tha.t is practically the beginning, 1 presume, of the horizontal afre:lter, 1880.

No. 6. Fifteen Ameriean engines manufactured by the Baldwin Locomotive Compa.ny were importedfromAmeriea in 1880. This spark arrester consisted of a wire netting l6-in. mesh on top of the chimney, with a cast-iron deflector, very similar to No. l. These arresters were used for some years, and did not give such good results as the depa.rtmental arresters.

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No. 7. "Vortex" blast pipe. Patented hy Mr. 'V, Adams, Loeomotive Superintendent, London and South-·western Railway, and fixed in some of the engines in 1889. The inventor claims for the patent that the velocity of the exhaust is reduced and softened, the lower boiler tubes are brought more into action, less fuel is eonsumed, and spark arresters can be dispensed with.

A large number of engines in England and Europe a.re, I believe, fitted with the" Vortex" pipe. The ten (10) engines running here with this pipe are all fitted with a single departmental arrester, same as in South Australia.

They have some running there, ancl find they can do with one arrester instead of two.

No. 8. About 1889 some modifications were made in No. 5, and it was deeided to fix two (2) grids in the smoke box, one above the other, 5 to 6 inches apart, during the summer months. The wires in the top arrester were plaeed at right-angles to those on the bottom.

A further improvement was made in 1894, when the diameter of the wire was reduced to No, 6 gauge, spaced 40 to the foot, giving spaces of i inch bare. The wires are held together by transverse bars which vary from 3!- inches to 6 inches apa.rt.

That is practically the arrester shown there. One is used in winter, and in summer the two are used with a conical cage between them.

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3 T.ld.W~e, Ifith August, tftXl.

Two arresters are used in 424 of the running engines during the summer months, that is from September to April, somewhat varying with the district.

We leave it somewhat to the discretion of the inspectors, a.ccording t.o the rainfall of the districts. The spa.ceSJ between the two arresters are from 5 iuche:s to 6 inches, ~nd bare are pla.cetlat right.angloo. The space

between the two arresters at the blast pipe h tmc:oHed by a. wire couical cage made of the same material Great care ia t.nken to cover np a.U holes and corners round the pipes, &;c,

Each engine is supplied with a ,.-ire brush ior cleaning the arrester, ami strict instructions are ieeued regarding its use.

Some of the ~ngine3 have been fitted with wire netting, ··l~-in. mea:h, made of wjre No. 12 gauge, American pa.tt,ern, lns:tea.d of parallel wires, which have given similar results u.e regards atopping spu.rka as the departmental a.n·eater, but its life and durability are considerably less than that of the latter arrester; besides, it is very difficult tn clean it without injury, which is not so with the d.ep1ll'tmental arrester.

Triala have been ma(le with an engine fitted with a single tine horit',ontal grid, 60 wiree to the foot, spaces about 1\ inch. with movable defieetor pla.te over upper rowe of tuOO, and extended smoka box.

ThiB wa.aeffcctive as regards stopping sparks, espe<;ially from wood, hut has been found in practice with coa,l to require more attention in cleaning than the departmental arrestcr<i, and it was considered that the double arrester was a more effeetive safeguard.

No. 9. Trials were ma.de in 1896 of an arrester used on the Swedish Govemment :railways, which was mid to be the outcome of many experiments on the Swe<Uah t"<1ilways, a.nd adopted hy the 1\Uthorities there. The railways there run through pine forests, ami it is very important tha.t few !:!parks should be thrown.

By tlris construction the producte of combustion pass throngh a spark chamber furnished with eurve•l vanes, giving a. rot.ary motion to apa.rk.s, thereby grin(lin;r Against the walls hefore reaching the chimney proper. ThU! w;:u;: fitted to 433 "Y" cla.se engine in Deeemher, 1895, and found to materially interfere with the steaming of the engine, and was taken off. We took a great deo.l of trouble with this arrester. \Ve got the Norwegian Consul to gei drn.wiugs sent out, and made" contrivance exaclly to the J.rawiuga, lmt found that with a full ioad the engine wonld not steam with it.

3. By Mr. Gat'!m Dujit.-Has it that effect in Norway ?-I do not know whether they tax their engines up to their full capadty or nof. They speak very highly of it, Lut we could not make it do here.

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No. 10. Recently one broad-gauge engine and two na.rrow-gauge engines have been received from the &ld·win LocomotiYe Company, fitted with deflector plate> in front of the top rowa of tubes a.nd a wire netting, y\·in. mesh, No. 12 gauge wire, placed aet'Qss the smoke bo"lt. 'l'hese engines hM"e not been rmming very long; the reaulti! will be ea:rofully watched. I understand t.his arrester i:; the one generally used throughout Amerien, with various modificn,tions.

4. By the Chairman.-Wail it put in the f;moke box when the engines were manufactured?-Ye3; and came out.

5. W&s it in the specifieRtions ?-No; the specifieations were that they were to he fitted with the best in use in Amerif'~. ! may say that one of our officers, on a trial the other night, reported to mo that a great. many sparks were emitted.

6. Sparks that would be daugerons in the ::mmmer ?--I cannot say. 7. You do not propose to stop nil sparks, ouly the dangerous ones?-Juet so. Thnt is about all

we bs.ve tried dcpn.rtmeutnUy. There are n Jot of ontsidc inventions which 1 will deal with presently, Out those submitted cover pretty welt all we have tried departmcntnlly.

The rcanons for the adoption of grids formed of parallel wires a.s against netting or perforated plates are becamm the greater dura.bHity, lcsset liability to get out of order, lesser liability tu choke1 and fMiliHea for clea.ning, beside which they cannot easily be t.ampered with.

\Ve consider it a very important thing in a spark arrester for it to be a fixture so that it cannot be tampered with on the road.

8. By Mr. WJieeler.-What do you mean Oy that ; is there soroe mechanical comrivtmc.e that ~an be thrown out of gear ?-Some have doors.

9. Fol' what purpose ?-One is fittt:d with n door for the purpose of getting up st.ea.m. I think ally auch contrivance is ftt.ta.l t.o any arrcater. We have a very good and honest lot of men to deal with as a

B z

T. H. WO!Xlrol!e, 16th August, l!X»

whole, but amongst a large body of men there may be some who, if they were stuek up on a bank with a heavy load and could not get on, would feel rL very great temptution to open the arrester. This is one objection I have to the American nrrester-1 uotice there is a big door tbat can be opened and shut.

10. By Mr. 11. R. Wilhams.~·Icl that, door in tho arrester in the uarrow-ga.nge enginos supplied by the Bahlwin Company ?-Yes. I belieH:: it is um to be in tUc la.st componuU and other three engines. I might state that tLds subject, as you will learn. is one that is enga.git1g not only us in Victoria., but tho Americn.n anthorit[es and European cngiueer.il, and is one that is going to he brought up before the Inler~ national Railroa-d Congress to be held in Paris next Septembtr·; the discussion on the various mcanK t-hat the various compa.niee hn. vc adopted all over the world with the view of determining which is the ht:st. 'l'here are a· multitude of c-ontrivances, but thm·e are none yet agreed to as the best.

Mr. E. Sauvage, who is reporting on behalf of a large nnmher uf Europea.n ra.ilwaya to the International Railroad Congress on the subject of spark arreat-ing, concludes-'' Parallel roda offer less obstruction to the draught of locomotives th;~.n wire~work and perforated plates." (See Railroa-d Gt£ZI'.tte1 25th May~ 1900j page 332,) I mention that a:<:~ some corroOOmtio-n of our opinion u.s 1o para.He) bars beiug the Letlt.

The Vietori<m Railways Department has at present about 424 running engines fitt-ed for double spark arresters~ e.nd 51 engines fitted for single spark e.treaWr, and 10 enginea with 8iug1e arre:;ter in eomhiua.tion with the "Vortex" blast pipe.

Most of thosa fitted engines.

with single arresters are shunting en glues not doing much work, and some America-n

The ('()at of the double arrester is about £4, fitte(l and fixed.

That is: similar to the one in the mo(h;l now hcforc you. Further appliances which lll'e ch~imed to have an appreciable effect on the diminution of spal'ka a.re brick arches in

the tire box and battle plated, or smoke shoots at the fire hole doors, which are fitted to the fire boxea of all the principal running engines.

The brick arch ie for better combustion and to save fuel; but it is claimed it has an effect on spark throwing.

As a. further pree-aution, the Dcpa.rtment, iu October, l89.1, entirely discontinued the use of wood for Hteaming1 eoal a.lone being ueed.

Prior to H595 we used wood in the winter mouths, but we have dlscontinned that pra.ct.ice. l 1. .By Jf.r. Graves.~ w-as tlJa.t tbe yen you had to pay so much for damage ?-It was during the

great coal strike iu 1H91. As regards the devices for preventing eintlere falling from the ash pan {though, personally, I do not think cinders

from the ash prm arc the ca11ae of tit'cs outside the ndlwa.y fencell,drivers being instructed to take every ea.re in this respect, see ln.structions)-oome cases have occurred o:f aleepers and ruhhiah left on the permanent wa.y being eet tire to1 and such ha.ve been ascribed to the escape of cinders from the a.sh pan.

To deal with this, the Department some time a~o eommenced to fit engin~ with tix:ed wire doors over the opeuing to the aeh pan, SU()h as arc fixed on the New Zealand railwaJ<> (aoo 'l'radng marked l355A). This a.pplianee ma.teria.lly affected the atemning of the engines, and the making of them was discontinued.

12. How· many of them were so fitted?-Ttlere were fiftoon fitted a.t tlHLt time. 13. Including the Great Southern Hue 't-I could not tell you that just now, but we can fnrnieh you

with a retum. showing that. 14. There were fifteen fitted ?-Fifteen made with that pa.rtieuln.r grid. \'Ve found it materially

affected the steaming of the engines. They got warped ami ehoked, anrl we discontinued it; we are noW' trying a movable curved perforn.tcd plate in front of the ash pan door-[ explaining by means of tlte model]. This is used in New South Wales, aud, I watt informed by Jlr. Thow, with success,

L5. By AJ.r. 1Fheeler.-'\Vonld it cost much to adopt it to your engines ?-A couple of pounds per engine, 1 suppose.

16. By Mr. Gra,oes.-They can put it up and down to clean it out ?-It has tha.t disadvantage, tha.t it is under the control of the drivel'.

A tnovable curved perforated plate in front of the ~h pa.n door, uaed on the New South Wt\les railways, hM i<eeently been fitted to a number of engines (about 80), and thia is sa.id not to intf!dere with the draught. Sufficient time has not elapsed for me to Le able to say if the advantages warrant the ontla.y.

As far as I eau ascertain from examination of publii!hed drawing~: of locomotive.<;, and the diseuaaions at the meetings of fne \'arlous Locomotive Engineering Associations in Europe and America during the past few yea.ra, it doea not n.ppea.r to be the practice to fit Englisli, Ji~uropeanJ or American engines with ash pan protectors. I ea.uuot find auy infotmatiou or drflwlngs in regard to H.

The three engines recently received from the Bald win Company are not so fittOO. In order that the a.rresterB may be properly looked after a.:o:d kept in ord~rt tb£l following rules &nd instruetions

bearing on the question arc issued:-72. Spa.rk arrosters,-Diatrlct Loco. ln:o.pectors wiH arr3.nge as to the months during wh.ieh engines ma.y be run

with single s1mrk arres:ters. (See instruction 13!.} They wi.U also see that every fa.cility is given to the boiler inspector for th.e exnmmation of ttH arrester!!.

133. P1·ecuutions to be olmerved when atcaming wood is uacd.-Should ii Le necfml!ary to buru wood for steaming pul'poe~, fi~ b.'l.ril must he properly regulated u.nd kept as close a!:l pos~iLle ; blast pipes must he kept clean, and drivers should bo inatruc0cd to nm witL the da.n1pers as close tt-B pouihle 't-O prevent sparks escaping from chimney or ash pa.n. They must nlso bo instructed to carefully examine spark arresters n\"Bry day to see if there be any holes through which spa.rlu> might esca.po. Uec of wood for steaming purpoaoo abandoned in 1895.

134. ::)park arresters.-No engine is to be permitted to run unleas fitted with a spark arrester or a.rreaters in good condition. Hwy must be kept perfectly clea.nt and brushed with the wire brush aupplied for tha.t purpose at least once every da.y by the fireman; the driver being responsible that this lli done. In all caaee engines ruu.y he run with single arresters ouly during the montha of May, .June, J·dy, and August, incluaive, iu the northern diatrictd; and fr<tm April to September, inclusive, in the southern districts. This rna.ttcr to be ruTa.nged by the Distxict Loco, lnspootor. Arraa;tel;"6 when taken out, for storing should be ta.refully labelled with the number of the engine to which they belong, and must accompany the engine wheu tra.nsfened to another station.

135. I<:xaminiug 14JX~I·k a.rresters..~The hailer in~pedox· lw.a beeu instruded to examine the spa.rk arresterv of all &ngines. }<~very facility cmd assis:.ruHJe for doing so is to he given hinJ. It is to be dietinctty understood Lha.t thta order does not relieve th4 lN<.:o. lnspectvrs, ioreruen, boilermakers, d1·ivers, firemen, or others from any responsibility in connexion with sp<trk arre.s:tR.rs, and they will be held respomrible for a:uy neglect of duty in this direction, The Miler iDBpector hrw received strict orders to report any J1uch cases eomiug under his notice.

13G. Glet\nsing of blMt pipes.~D~l'ing the dry season special care is 00 De taken to keep blast pipes thoroughly clean for at lea.sl, twelve incholJ.Il'Qm the top while :in position.

137. Boiler tubes and bla.st pipea.-'l'he tubes of all engines a.re to be thor·oughly eleaned every day, a.nd the bla.st pipes taken dOwn once every three months to permit of thooe tubes beiug eleaned, which eannot be o\herwiic reached.

5 T. U. Woodroffe, 1t'tth Augt~Bt, 1900.

The blast pipes are to be burned out before being replaced. Whe11 the bUu<t pipes of Q class engines a.re remoYed the nuts <Jf the studs tltat fasten the cylindcl-s together in exhaust eavity must be c&re!nlly test-ed with a spanner to see that they are secure,

138. Brick arches a.nd baffie plates to he kept in good order.-Briek arches and httille plates mu!'!t be kept ia good order, and are tD be replaeed when worn out. The hoiier inspector to report any case of neglect.

139. Suitable fire bar!! to be supplied.-Locomoth•t~ foremen and drivers in eharge are held responsible for seeing that the proper and most suitable flre bars, whiell will be determinerl by tlle Chief Meehanieal Engineer, to suit the various classea of coal used by the Department, are s:upplletl to the engines under their Ghargc, nnd that they are maintained in good condition.

23i:t Precautions against fire.-The utmost care nm"t he takeu during the dry seueon to hn.vc fire bars a<~ close a.'! possible, to prevent fire dropping out on the road. The admission o:' air hy the fire l10X shoots must also he carded out to the fullest extent pru.cticable, so as to enablG the engine to run with damper Jwarly cl(1Sed.

Spark arresters, smoke boxes, tubes, and ash pans are to be kept clean, <tnrl hL1.st pipes n.re to he kept clean and to their full size.

234, Fires ea used by knocking out ashes,-Complaints have been made of drh•era knocking out their fires on the road with the dampers open1 thereby cunsingthc ashes to drop from the ash IJ<lll and set :fire to the gru.ss. Drivers must run with their dampem ae close n.s possible consistent with getting steam, and ou no account must the prick er l,e used on the fire with tbe damper open.

23.,1), Fires to ~ reported.~Enginemen tnlH:!t, at aU times, keep a simrp look m1t for fires oecnrring close to or anywhere nea.r the railway line, and report the ~u.me as soon aa possible to their iooomotive foreman, giving full particulars as to locality and cause of fire, so .tllat immediate inquiry may be m;tele iuto all the _eir·cums~,~~:es eonnee~e<~ Uu;r?with. Reports to he aent by telegraph, tf nooessttry, and ~he JHJa.rest pet·mttneut-wny repa.trer notlfier., Any (lnver fmlmg to report fires ae here instructed will be severely dealt with.

277. Ash pa-na and emokc hnxca to he thoroughly cleaned lJefore engine is put away.-Before putting their engines away drivers must Se£ that their firemen thoroughly clean their ash pum and f'moke boxes, and also that their engines o.re supplied with sufficient fuel, and thoroughly eqnipped {(Jl' the nc~t day's work, unless specially instructed otherwise by the locomoth-e foreman.

278. Fires to- be dropped at asb pits-~Fin~s arc to he droppecl a.ml ash pa.ns cleaned at the ash pit8 at coal stage, And any driver doing his work elsewhere, partieulal'ly iu the proximity of wood heap!St will be oove:rely punished,

Those instructions are to the offect that the drivers, who nre primarily responsible, aro to see that all those appli.nnees u.re kept in proper order; and if they are not, it is their dnty to report auy defect or anything wrong in the Repairs~hook, after they rtm thl!lir trip, Atld thetl the foremen of thn v11riom~ ~hecls are also responsible, and the superintendents :...re also responsible, to see the otherti carry out their duties, !UH.l, as au independent check on tho:!c men, I~ some yeal'H ago, instructed an orticcr who goes round iw~pecting the boilers, and who is not nmler the control of the running meu, but nnt1er the ooutrul of Hte Newport officials, to al&o inspect spark arresters and report anything he fouuJ wrong.

17 . .By the ChaiNnan.~Did yon ever receive any report to the effect that the boxes are not properly looked after 7-Yes, there have heon eases; in f<tct., I luwe examinetl certain hoxes my:RM. In one case in pnrticulnr, when I saw an engine throwing sparks, I tTaced tho thing up and fountl the arrester was not in proper order. This i~:~ o. circular that is eent out at tbo cowmcw!enHmt of the dry scasou in MlJition to the usual instructions.

CIRCULAR TO LOCO. L'\SPECTORS AND FOREMEN, No. 78,94, DATED 29-J:H DECEMBER, 1894. Circular No, 65/94 :re-i:;sued, Re Cireula.rs 54 and 58:'94, now that the dry sea.'iOn hag commettcelt ple:l.Se instruct enginemen to keep a. sharp

lookout at all times for fires oocurring close t.o or anywhere near the raHw~ty line. and to report the :;a.me as soon aa poseihle to Loco. Inspector or foreman, giving full particulars n.s to looality a1ld ca.use of fire, so tha.t immediate inquiry nu1.y be made into a.ll the circmnsta.nces connected therewith, Reports 00 be scut by telegraph if neceSilrtry.

Also please- instruct enginemen to take every pree<l!ltion to prevent fire escaping from t.he ash pan as well as from the funnel, a.s directe\l in the above-mentioned circrda.t5.

Severa.l ca.aes have recently come under my notice of engincmen failing torepnrt fires as n.hovcim;truetetl; all drivera e.re now informed that e.ny future omission of this kind will be severely deaJt with.

CIRCULAR TO LOCO. I!<SPECTORS AND FOREMEN, No. 4.5,95, DATED 2·1Tn OC'£0RER, 1895. Re Instructions 96, 97, and 156, and predons cirl.'ulars, now that the dry se::~.son ha.s: eommenced, please instruct

enginemfln to keep a sharp lookout a.t all times for fires occurring claseto or anywhere noar the railw:ty line, and to report the same a.a soon a;; possible to Loco. Inspector or foreman 1 giving full particulars us to loeality and muse of fire, so that lmmedie.te inquiry may be made into a.U the circuma:ta.nce1; connected therewith. RefJOrts to be sent by telegraph if neeessa.ry.

To minimize the risk of 11rc, the use of stea.miug wood is to he discontinued until further ortlers. Spa.rk U.f'l'Csters of all locomotives un•ler your charge are to he kept cle.1.n and in :first-class order, and blast pipes well cleaned out at least twelve {12) inches from the top whilst in position. Altm please ini'lt.ruct. enginemen to take every pt'ecn.ntion to prevent fire escaping from the ash pan as well as from the funnel as din:cted in the aboT"e-mentioned instructtons and cit·•mlars. Enginetnen fa.Uing to report fires as above instructed w.m he severely doe<lt \Y-ith.

ht November, 1696, this circular was issued without alteration. Since 18961 a committee of ~n the principal loco. oiiicers meets cYory month, when the alto'\'"e matters arc diseuseed

and dealt with.

As far M we can, tho officers and men arc impressed with tho importance of taking every precaution.

A very large nnmOOr of inventions for arf\'li!t-iug a.ml .extinguishing sparks hare been snbmittM to and inveBt.igrltcd by the Department. I herewith fum1sh n e:tatemont. of those dealt with during the laet ten (10) year£', with abe:traets from the reports: on each. There were a. large number before thi;, period. Of coune, all the original pupcrs can be rea.dilv obtained if the Committee w desire. •

I h11ve had tllis taken from the papers, giving the dnt.es, the names, the lribl,q, nn<1 comment!>. The Het shows that 123 proposala have been submitted, 29 of which had frequent trials. Some n. great m::wy. Of

the t·emalnder, facilitielll were offured where the invention waa thought worthy of it, hut they were not av-ailed of. None of those that were teated were .;.•ons:idered t.o be us efficient as the dcpn,rtmental arreater.

Considern.ble c:a.re haa to he taken by tltc R.ailwll.y Depa.r~_ment in granting trials to see th11.t hond .fide, but too sanguine, inn~ntors and their financial backers a.re not run into naeleas expense in wsting wortlllellS inventions, a.ml, on the other hand, to avoid giving .:~pccnla.ting syndicates po"rcr to make capital out of d.;.•pttrtmenh1.l trials of so-called inventions or promisee of trials.

18. By J.lf.r. Wheeler.-Hnve yon charged all the inventors for the trial:- ?-~ince r\ certain date. 19. I:ty the Clt.airman .......... Aud those who were offm·eU trials and dec-lined, on what gronntl did they

declin&---because they had to pay ?-I imagine that '"'aB the cause. They were told if thoy paid they eould have a trlall although, perha-ps, we t!i(l uot think much of the invcntioH.

20. By .. ~-r. IJ'heeler.·-How many trials hn.vc you given to tl1e 29 referre!l to ?-They are various~ some teu or twelvt.

T. H. Woodrof!'c, 15th August, IOOQ. 6

21. lJ:; tlw Oluzi1'1Jl.a>n,.-WU1 the information take long to give us in regard to the 29 ?-They aro aH hc1e in the p:,per.

22. By .t'tfr. H. R. 1Viltiams.-In the long list of all the patents, applications for which have beeu made for trinl, win you indicate by l'!ome mark the 29, so that we could look over them ?-It is all made clear, 1he name of the patentee, description of arrester, trial, and comments on it. I wi!l read the :first ono o.n t.he list, that of \V. D. Davies. I do not know nnyt.bing alwnt this personally, as it was before my f.Jme-[uadiug from the list handed in]. Without the papers I do not know what was done in that mat.t.er, whether there were other trials or not, The next was nn invention bv a Mr. Crahtree[readi,..g again .from the list]. The thJrd was by Mr. Cowderoy. The next one i~ one introduced by Mr. W. B. Shnw, I think the manager of the I1hrenix Foundry, but .since den.d-[readir~g fw·tlwr from tlte list].

23. By the Cl~airma-l't.-Will you indicate by some mark the 29 referred to in the list you have handed in ?-I find on the face PUKO there is o. summary of all those that have had a t:-ial, so you can trace them fi·orn that. There arc not only those that ho.ve had trials, but tho nomher of trials each have had. Of co!Jrse you can get any further information you require from the Department. I might say 1 before leaving th1s, that there is naturally a groat deal of difficulty in eonvinci11g any one of the in utility of their iuve11tions, and that sornetimPs gives riso to disputes, correspondence, and statements of unfairness; hut I ruay say we have every de::;ire to M fair1 or to give every one every facility for trying their inventions. When I went to the Department in 1893J I vrent with a free mind and a free hand. I was not iu favour of any spark arrester. I only wanted the best, and I gave full facilities for all those inventions that came under my notit~e tn be tr·ied.

2-1-. In the case of any of the gentlemen who n.pplied for trials. were their inventions in u~ in any part of the world formerly, or are they now ?-~I cannot say now, hut I think it is exceedingly probable.

25. Some hn.ve applied to tbe Committee who had them in use ?-I 11m reminded that Mr. AUlbon has one in u;;:.e on the Deni1jqnin line, His trials arc shown in the pnper I have banded in.

26. Win you please reaJ that one, as it is nn important one?-Yes-[ reading the same]. 27 . . By flfr. Gavan DuJ}'y.-1 notice you r,ried it with wood: are the ~lrivcrs giving those reports

comparing the st.enming with other engiues using coal ?-In some cases those reports are made after using coal. In some cn.ses they might do what yon say. Of course this :urnster was tried with coal, and wou!d not steam with coal.

28. You notice the mnn Oakley used coni and reported more favombly ?-Yea. 29. By the 0/winna.n.- You know on the Moama and Deniliqnin line they use wood and coal, and

they nse tlutt arrester ?-Yes; I know that. If yon wish that particular file of papers or any other, we have them, and they can he produced. I have merely condense<! from them. I go on to say in my notes:-

Thel'E ia a.lao the extreme dil:liculty, if not impossibility, of convincing introducers of _patents. Man.y of them knowing nothing whatever of the con,litions under which th{J contrivance hiL!'! to work. Further, a. contrivo.uce whieh might be fairly !'!uccessful on trial might utterly fail under every day conditiotl.S.

The next information I have to give is a descriptjon of the arre:'it.ers used in the adjoining colonies, They are Rhown here, and 1 have a traeing of them which is made in such a form that they cnn be eaRily compared. The Committee c~m have that if they wish. Of course there are no two of them exMtly alike, hut the Committee can compare them for thcmsolves.

Of the a.rresttrs used in other colonies the following are the deiicri.ptions a.s shown by drawings presented to the Conference of Lot.'Dn\otive Officers ·he1d iu Adelaide last year:-

NEw :)ocTH WALES.--l>ouble arrester, horizontal and ·vertical conical wire~ No. 12 Birmingham wire gauge, si:oo of mesh l inch.

SOUTH AuSTRALIA.-Double arreeter, horizontal a.ud vertical conicaL Horizontal arrester-wire, No. l4 Birmingham wire gauge; aize of mesh, la iuch. Vertical arrester-wire~ No. 6 wire ga-uge (/11 inch fnll) 1

l"iu. spaces. QUttESSLA:SD.-Plate, l inch thick, pcrlorate..l with f-'in. holes, fi-in. pitch, with deflector pla.te, \V EST At:Sl'RALlA.-Hurizmrtal netting on iron frame~ wire. No. 16 wire gauge, 4 meshes per inch; size of mesh,

i$0 inch. TASl'ltANlA.-Horizonta.l plate, t inch thick; perforated with Yrin. holes, {·in. pitch, and vertical conical

arrester~wirc1 No. 9 W.G., j-in. pitch at top. NEW Zii:Ar.ASTJ.- Class "RH 'I'hia arrangement consists of a plate perforated wHh rectangular holes t inch

hy i in;:;h long, fixed longitudinally across the smoke box above the top row of tubes. Class" W 1' for soft coal burning. 'fhcse engines are from the :&ldwin Company, America, au<l the spark-arresting a.pparatns coneiRts of a caRt-lron crme with concave top fixed on top o-f chimney proper, by which the prnducts of combustion arc !leficcted, the Sllarks striking the outside shell of chimney and dropping into n. space between inside and outside shells, and thence back lnto smoke hox hy menus of cln\ler shoot. The top of exhaust pipe is placed very low, and a short adjustable pctticoo.t chimney is fixed on top of exhanst. thus distributh1g the draught evenly through npper Mid lower rows of tubes.

30. By Mr. (;:raves.-Is that a ~lmilar one snppHrd in the enl(i.ncs snpplieJ to nR?- Similar to those that were suppHeri oril!inally~ as far as th\l cone arrangement is concernetl. I may state that the last two years we havo l1ad conferences of t.he leading railway officer8 of the various colonies. The locomollvo men hn.ve met, and bnve discussed kindred subjects ; alAo the j.rnffic and permanent-way officials~ and afterwards the Commissioners.

Tracin~ of the n.bove a.re also Attached, a.lso tracings of the New Zcal:tnd ash pan. arrester and the on& now in use by the Victona.n Rail ways.

The question of sp<~.rk-arresters was fully di~<eussed at the conference of prineipa.J rn.l1way offiC'era and Commissioners, held in Adeln.idc in Febru<try and April last, and the following minute WAS recorded:-

,,In all the colonies either perforated plates nr wire acreens a.re laid horizontally in smoke boxes. In some of them a.n additinna.l conical spark arrester or horiZOiltal screen is also used. In n. few of the colonieB screens are used in front of the n.sh-pa.n doors t·o catch cindets which might otherwise escape.

H Cln.ims for compensation for dn.mage alleged to be caused by sparks are 110t recognised in any colony."

Of course each one thinks their spark arre.sler the most efficient, but \Ye nll thought either ef them complied with the b:.w.

31. JJy Mr. Gavan DuifJJ.-You state facts in the minute, hut do not mnke nny recommendation? -No.

32. Did you attempt to arrive at any decision ?-The question wa$ dh;cus.sed as to which was considered the hest, but uo decision was arrived fl,t. It was generally agt·eed that eaeh one complied with the law,

7 T. H. Woodroffe. 15th Augul!!t, lOOQ,

33. Do you keep miuutea of your eonferenees i would thEl discussion be obtainable?-Yes, I tldnk so. I will endeavour to get it for rbe Comroiitee.

34. By Jl!r. 1¥/ueler.-Ha.ve any colony since that eonfereueeadoptcil any other tha.n their own?-1 think not, because the Forests Commission appears to hn.vo been in communication with them, nnd the do&criptions of the arresters gi1ren agree wir.h what was exhibited at the conference.

35. IJy tlM Ch-airman.-The practical result was that et~ eh colony thongl!t its anester tlw best?Yes, though J do not know that there was any positive statement to that effect.

36. By .~.ltr. Gavan .Dup}.~They did not agree to that, but tha.t they were good enough ?-Yes, that w&s the outcome of the discussion. For insttluec, there has hecn a law case in New Zeal:wd lately. I have got what they say about tbe spark nnester there; they say that they hav0 the very be8t in the world.

37. lJJI Mr. Graves.-Did that case go before a. judge and jury ?-It went before a. Commission. 38. By the Chairmatt..-New Zenlaml was not represented at the conference ?~No. 39. liy Mr. rt·luu:ler.-Have you their plau ?-y Cfl.

40. liy .1.lfr. Gavan Dujj'y.-I gather from what yon said, in Sew South Wales especially, besides the horizontal arrester they have a conical nrraugclllP'lt, Would it not fol1ow· if the same steam could be got it would ben. double safety ?-We pot H.llother Htroon across the smoke hox, which gives the same effect.

41. By Mr. Tr-heeler.-You use one in winter, and when the tlry weather comes you put the other in ?-Ye~.

42. Are yourengiues all fitted that way ?-Yes. As regards the EngHsh practice, they do not seem to be very much used.

43 • .By Mr. Graves.-In Engla.nd it is generally raining in some part of it?-Y os ; but there have been some very large tires there. This is what Mr. Wehb, the Chief Mechanical Engineer of the London and North~ Western Railway, says:-

,,The London and North-Western Ra.ilway Company own 2,i96 loooruotive engines, and tlo not use any kind of eocallOO spark arresters iu the emoke boxes. In the engines of this company we rely npon the brick an:h and Jefiector door plate, coupled with a.large-eized hla.st pipe, to prevent the emission oi spa.rks. "\Ve obta.in the latter by the arrange· ment of chimney baees in the smoke box, which causes a more uniform draught through all the tuhea than the general arrangement of high hlast pipes a.ml no intetual chimney base. The :fire·hole door }n our engine forms the deflector door plate, The introduction of n. grid. either conical or horizontal, itt the smoke box. of a locomotive engine neoessitates the blast being sharpened, owing to the obstruction caused thereby, and this increases the risk of ashes being drawn from the fire box through the tuhes iuto the smoke box; and the brick arch not only prevents the emission of tla.ngerous sparke1

but, with the deflector :fire.hole door platRs, formiC! an effe.c-thre smoke prcventet; in fact, we comider the whole arrange~ tnent an &Ssential part of the modern coal-burning locomotive!'

.As a tnatter of fnct, we have the brick arches:, the defiootor fire box door plnte, and the grid in addition.

On American railwn.ys, a.a we are all aware, this subject ht\B hccn most extensively trvAl.ted for years; every ('onceivable form of screens, baffies, extinguishers, eones, eages, hags, defim~tors, &e., &c., having been tded, during the last 40 or W yea:rs.

In 1883,-a committee of the American Railway Master Mechanics' Association inquired into the question of spark n.rrest:ers, a.nd reported that the C'nited States Gtwernment had ;~,t that time granted more than 6UO patents for spark~ arresting applian-ooe, and o\·er .WO othe!1! for improvements in appliances for consuming smoke, antl yet no competent authority had eaid that any of these 900 imp!'Ovemen't$ were worthy <Jf genm·aJ. adoption,

The committee reviewed a.nd discussed 115 pat.entst which are given with illm>trations in the proceedi.nga referred to.

In December, 1899, or sixteen years later, l.tocotoottve En;;in.ecring, a.n Amerit:a.n railway paper of authority, states that-" Unfortuna.teiy, there is a na.turttl confHet between devices designed to promote free draught and thoae intended to prevent epa.rk throwing, nnd the oonflict between the ff'ee pass-age of fuelJ,vases from the tire box to the atmosphere, and t.he obstructions put in to prevent theee gases from carrying cinders a.loug, has led to a multitude of inventions that have been applied to the front end of looomoti\"ets,

''No practical arrangement has yet been produced which would cntiroly prevent s;_)nrk throwing. \Ve have seen a. few devices tb.a.t prevented spark tlll'owiug, but they also prevent-t-U the engines from steaming freely enough to pull a. tra.in . . . . There n.re very few locomotives in Europe equipped with spark arrester~ .. ,

From my readin? Qf the discnssion on the suhje.:t the a.bove is the opinion of most of the American locomotive engineers.

I observe that the subject of ry:park arrestera is to be discussed a.t the meeting of the Inte-rnational Railway Congrou to be held in Paris in September next.

~Ir. E. Sauvage, on behalf of a large number of Ew·opean railways, will rt~port as follows:~ • "The treatment of front end nettiogs and extended front e:w .. h in their relations to the !l.l'l'eet nf eparke 1 and the

obstruetione offered to dra.ught, contains nothing essentially new. The devices used are varione forms of 11ettingj the chief points of difference being that some nettings were fixed vertically, some hol'izontaHy, and others nt various compromising angles."

Mr. Quereau, on hel1a.Jf of the United States s.ml other American railways, will report, amougst other Mnclusions, that forpreventin~ fires caused by $parks from stack that:-

t23. "The baffle pla.tes awl netting should be so designed a.s to .exthtguish the sparks, break the cinders up, and then discharge them into the open a.ir. ..

24. « t5ystematic and uompt;t.ent. inlspection of front end a1·rnng€tnents, especially the netting, a.t regular intervals in conne11:ion with a pcrma.mm.t rerord showing t.he oondi:tion at the time of inspection n.nd t·he repairs rnu.de.

25. HThe use of :fire gu::trtle made by p1onghiug two or throo furrows aa far from the b·ack as ~)!Js.iblc, aml then burning over the grounll between the tn1cks and fu.rrnwo."

It will be seell from the conclusion 25 in the latter's report that after all these ycn,r,;1 of trials of a. multitude of itn•eutione, one ot the precautions tecomm.tmded is the cutting of furruwa outside the fences, thus practically admitting that no Amcrioon contrivance is perfect,

The arrest~ most conunon 011 American engines. is the deflector plate in front of the top rows of tubes combined with a single wire netting in Ytuious forms and a.nglee acrose the smoke box.

Mr. Qucreau, in above, reports tha.t petticoat pipes may be substitutt:d in the future for the defieck>r.

44. By the Clu:rinnwn.-When you speak of cutting the gras6, you refer to chipping between the fences?-Yes; and the 1and-mvners in addition pnt two or three furrows.

45. That wou~d not be much protection ?-Probably if the gra.Bs was burnt Letween the furrows a.nd the fence it would increHRe the protection.

46. That is on tbe private lnnd outside your fenee ?-Yes. 47. liy J.ltr. Gavan DuJJ.iJ.--Can you give us to understu.nd what a deflector plate is ?-It is sometimes

called a diaphrilQ'Tn-[ eJ1_;,la.i:uing on the model]. The tendency is fM f he bulk o! the liamea to come tbrongh the upper rows oT the tabes; the idea of tl1e Jcflcctor ia to bRfflo this and causa them t.o flow through the lower tnbc.s) nod thus distribute the heat bet.ter.

* See Rttilrowl GIV:ette, page 450. 29th June, 100!), t 8~ RaiWoad Ga.itt:e, p(l.ge 58, 19th Jc.l.l'UA1'}", 1900.

l'. H. W(l(ldr(:dfe, Jbth Auguet, uoo. 8

end. 48. Are all your engineslitted with them ?-No, not nil; but there are boffie plates at the lire box

49. 1 thought you said tiley were huilt with brick arches and ba.ffi.o plates ?-That is auother plate. 'l'he object of it ia tbst when they open the fire, instead of the cold air going through the tubes, it is thrown down on the :fire. In Mr. \V ebb's case, of ·which he sp<Jaks, that plate is fixed on the fire-hole door. W o nse a separate plate. That is shortly the information I have in counexion with railways. I thought that I wouid say what my opiuion of a perfect spark o.rrest,er is.

The requirements of a. perfect spark ~rrcsttJr, in my opinion, are-l. That it should prevent ail ap(l.rks from escaping from the chimney thlilt would set fire to goods, &c., on train,

or gre.ss, &c., a.rljoining the line. 2. ']'h(l.t it should not interfere with the free steaming of the engine up to its fullest tractive power~ and without

increasing the consumption of fuel. 3. ':Phat it should be strong and durable, ea.sily fixed, and easily kept clean aud in good order. 4. Tha.t it should not be capable of being rnanipdatetl or tampered with in service. 5. The.t it should provide easy access to the tubes and otheL" fittings in .smoke box •

. . r consider that the dcp..'l.rtmenta.l arrnsteo·s, when iu p:roper order, ft'lirly comply with four out- of five of these condtt10ns, a.nd evnn the double arrester does not very a.pprCLia.hly increase the eouaumptiou of coa.J.

I do not say that it does not interfere with the coa-[ con~umption to a certain extent. The double arrester does, the single arrestor does hut very little. The Jouble arrester somewhn.t increases tho consumption of fuel.

50. By Mr. Gavan DuJf¥.-Couid you fix the percentage of increase? -:Ko. 51. By the Chairman.~ Every one would interfere more or leas with tho draught; that was the

opinion of Mr. Webb 1-Yes. 52. Thf' putting in of a grid obstructs the draught ?-Yes. 53. By .illr. fFheeler.-Cau yoa gfve an idea of the consumption of coal when you have the two

arresters in use, the additional quantity of coal used ?-1 have not taken that out 1 hut I dare say a.bout 1 per cent. or 1-;. per cent.-something like that. The only otber remarks I wish to make are, that I was U11der examination hy the Fore::ts Comminsion, and all my eviJence is there, which could he taken if you wish. Then I wanted to say that I thought the use of compound eugines would le~sen considerably the lia.bHity to spark throwing. Componnd engine~ are on their trial just now, bnt they o.re coming into uso largely in America. I read tho st:a.teruent the other day that about hal.f tbe engines iu America. are being made compound. They are being used on the Continent wo, though in Eng-land they rlo not seem to he taking much to them. The object of them is they economize steam. The steam is used in two cylinders, and tb.c effect is the steam is exhausted at a low pressure, nnd tl1e blast hns not the same !.endency to draw the sparks through the tubes ns in a simple engine. \Ve have two or three of those compouud engines on trial, and propose to make some of them.

54. By tJw Chairman.~-Have you any of the Phrenix engines finishetl yet ?-One is finished and delivered ; but they are not ~omponndJ they are simple t:ngines.

55. You propose to have some made?-Y cs, but the contract is not let yet. The euly other point is this: For the entire doing awaJ with sparks. it appenra to me that tbe use of liquid fuel is 1he solution of that ditnculty~ provided, of course) that the petroleum refuse could be got at. a cost not prohibitory. There is no doubt that liquitl fuel is the ideal fuel, as there would be no sparks, a lesser quantity used, a Iesaer quantity to handfc, and uo smoke~ nnd other :ulva.r.tnges.

56. By J.l!'l'. Gavan Duify.-Wbera is that used ?-On tile Great Eastern Ra.Hwa.y in J:t~ngland for many yt:arst on a great number of steam~ boats, aml on the Russian railways. It has also been experimented with in the States, and in Germany.

51. By the Ch-airman.-Have you any idea of the :relative oost. Of course, it would be dearer here?-Yes. I am epeaking of petroleum refuse.

58. By Mr. Graves.-They are making petroleum from the Moe coal. and experiments are now going on in Germany with it ?-I have an idea the Shell Transport Company supply~ nmong other products, lubricating oil and refuse for burning. The manager of the company tolU me some time ago that he expected to be a.ble to deliver liquid fuel here which would compete wtth coal, but, of eourse, that remains to he seen.

ii9. By Mr. Gat'<l.n Drl.{fy.-Would the engines want to be converted ?-Yes. a very little alteration of .tire boxes, and tanks instead of cool bunkers.

60. I snprJose some of the engines in the worst districts could be used in the summer time. Even if it were Uen.ror the extra. expense would not be very great ?-I do not know ; it depends on the price they could deliYer it at. It would have to he delivered here at from £1 to £1 Os, a ton of good quality before it could look at coal.

61. By tlt.e Chai:rma.n.-You said yon did not think that fires originated from the fire boxes?-Yea, that is my opioion-tha.t is; fires on adjoining properties.

62. Of course, I presume you mnst be assuming that tb.e grass is bnrnt between the line and the fence ?-Yes; of course, tha.t would be part of the assumption.

63, Bec.rmse, supposing there wM a very strong hot north wind, ns on the 23rd December last, when eeveral .tiros occurred, do you not think it would be sufficient to carry the liye embers and sparka large enough to c<1nse fil'es, even t1eross Lhe line, ana into the paddocks outside ?~It is exceedingly doubtful. They fall betw•en the rails.

64. By Mr. Wheeler.-Do you not ehip outside the rails. I sa.w men at work the other day just outside the permanent way. A little way from the sleepers you chip ?~Yes.

66. That would effectm;lly stop any fire from going over ?-I should think it would; I should think the cinders would keep inside the rails, ·

66. \Vas that the, object you had itt vie''' in doing tha.t chipping ?-It i9 for drainage. Every well~kept road should have the cess kept clear for drainage.

67. Should it not he done all along the linos ? - Y os. I think it is done genern Hy. 68. By Jl:lr. H. R. Williams.-Do you not clear the lines of all growth just before the summer ?

y cs, they are all weeded. 6U. All through the yea.r, not only through the summer time ?-Yes. 70. By Mr. Jt'hef!!ltr.-You tried that arsenic on them, did you not ?--Ye.s.

9

71. How did you find thn.t n.mrwer ?-It anf!wered in some formations, and not in others, and it was very expensive.

72. ·w na it more costly than weeding?-Yes. 73. What did yon pay for it per ton; I understund you got it from the Pyrites Works ?-My

recollection is about £6 per ton. 74. Yon used it in solution and caustic soda with H. 75, 'l'haL cost more than nctnally weeding ?-Yes; it ia some time ago since l had to do with it, s.nd

there have been trinJs since. The other officers could tell you exe.ctly about it. My recollection is that it was too expensive, even if efficient) nnd it WM not eriicient with ;:;ome weeds.

76. Perhaps you could not gAt Wfltcr handy always ?-~Yes, thtll wss the J.ifliculty~ the time taken to fill the trtdn.

77. Ry Mr. Gtar·es.-You mentioned that you did not think that fhel:!' were caused by the ashes or cinders fi·om the ash pa1t ; is that coned?~ Yes ; that i;;;, fire ont~ide the fences,

78. Your reason wns tl1nt you thought the ciudere dropped between the rails on the permH.nent road ?-Yea,

79. I tUink you also stated that in some diMricts or places sleeper:\ were set. on fi;e a11d burned, n.nd had t-o be rt>placed ?-1 do not know whether those particular Blccpcrs had to be rcplneed, hut we had C3.ses of burnt sleepers.

80. If that was the case~ wc '"ill assume tht>y had to ho n:;plnecd. 'Vould they hurn at once, or wonld it ta.ke some time to eonsuma a sleept:r lu:dorc it was put ont ?-It would depend Oll the character of the bleepcr, and the age of it.

81. Do yon know the Don aid lino ?-Yea. 82. The sleepers there were treeB cut in two. On t}u.~L line is it a fnct tha-t you 11nffcrod largely

from the tfict of sleepers going on fire ?-I do not know, 8a. 1f a sleeper goes on fire, and the fire h.~.:;t.s, ln hot weather would it Le possibltJ to confine the

fire or :-;parks to that sleeper between the railR1 or would they go, in hot weather with a high wind, into adjoining paddocks ?-Y es~.it is possible.

84. Then it is possihle that fire.e: might origiuuto fmm that canse ?-----Yes. 85, Do you ktww whether it is the view of the men <hiving the engines that very few sparks come

to the ground alive; that when a :.pnrk go6s from the innnel it is soon t'.O]d ?-Yes, that is what we think with the doulJle nrrester.

86. Arc men who drive the engines pnid n. consideration for doing the most work with the least coal?-Nu.

87. Do they get nothinrt extrn ?-There are consumption sheets publi!ihed every week showing the men who have the lowest record. \V c claFs the e_ ... giues on tho different rmtde, nnd the man with the lowest coni anti oil consumption is shown in the margin. \Vc do that for the estnblishmcnt of a spirit of emulation among Lhe men.

88. Supposing tUat you established a certam spnrk nncster, would tlw.t not to a certain extent more or l~se damage the steaming power of the euginc?-lf yon stop nil spurka. you stop n.ll atoam.

89. Tlu;refnre would it. 11ot he to their intt'rei't"" if tlw men ·.vcrc pa.iJ in oha.racwr Oll consideration not to bave <.\ 8park ttrrestor if they could do so with safety. 'Would they not get l~e[te.r results with a spark llnestcr ?-They would, of coor11e, In connex.ion with that subject, as 1 !!rty, we have the consump~ tion sheets of each man, and each vart.icular running, keeping them as much as posttihle alike, and the men's names nre published each montb.

90. That is not to his discredit ?~Xo, hut the londs of thtJir engines are fixed, and the time. If a man le behind tlme, or does not take a full lood; he is taken to aeeount.

91 . .Ry .:lfr. W7ueler,-\Yhat is the tli:ffeeence between running on one line with a heavy gradient aud on rt line compnrntivcl,v level ?-The Jifference in load,

92, You make the load up so much more) nnd there is the samo coal u.sod ?~There would be a. little les~.

93. On heavy gradients thero would be less loads?--Yes. 94. Anti on the level roads you pnt on more, so the consumption would be nhout the same ?-It

would vnn. 95: By .Mr. Gavan Duffy.-Tho Chairman menlloned fires 011 the 231 d Dccomhcr, and the assumption

is the fires were caused hy some defect in the euginc. Thct(• were three fires caused b.v the same engine, or when the same engine passed along the liuc; and there was .supposed to he ~ome defect in {t. Could yon produce some raports concerning that engino by the drh·er of it ?-Yes, we can produce all tbe papers,

The wiln~ss withdrew.

\\'~alter Stintou, examined.

96. }jy tlUJ Olwi1"11Uln.-\-VhaJ is your occupation ?-Deputy Chief Mechanical Engineer and \-Vorkshops Manager, Victorian Railwnys.

97, Have you your evidence ronnulnted; would you like to make your own statement to the Com~ lllit-tee ?~1 heard Mr. Woodroff'o's evidence, and I agree with it.

98. Do yon llavc the direct supervision of those arre~ters and the engines ?-As regards fttting them to various locomotives.

99. Not afterwards P-Not afterward!', ns a rnlo. 100. :Mr. Lewis has coutroi of thomJ then?-Yea, a-M a rule. 1 have seen o. great many of thoao

arresters after being firteJ. 101. You have no further responsibility after Leiug :fitted, unless they come baek for rep11-irs?-No.

It never came wlthit1 my province until lately. 102. Have you had anything to do with supervising then:., or seeing whetber they do the work

prope-rly ?-On1y J::eeing the pnpers. 103, You have no personal knowledge of their prulYtieal working ?-No.

Waiter Stinton, 15th Auguet, 1900. 10

104. Can you give ns any additional information to thn.t already supplied hy Mr. \V oodroffe ?-No, any more than that I travelled all of the adjoining colonies and New Zealand, and saw the spark arresters in u:;c, and examined them and got a great deal of inf(wmation, whi~;:h was readily given lty the officers tn charge of the engines.

l05 Tba.t information, I presume, has Ueen tabulated und giYen to us hy 'Mr. V{oodroffe ?·Yes.

106. There is nothing that you can say to supplement what has Ueea already given ?-No, I think not. I can, perhaps, explain tho model now in the room to the Commitlee if they dor::ire it-[ explaining tke •ame].

107. By Mr. Saugster.-Do you think if the spark arrester were not u~ed in the smoke hox you could increa..se the size of the exb::mst ?..!.Not much, In tho aY,. class engines the original drawings show 4!· inches in the hlast pipe. We have increased that to 2~ inches; that is because we have a lighter atmospflet·e here than at home.

108. 13y Mr. H. R. Wtlliam$.-ls it possible for a driver if he goes out with n. double gridiron, if he ha.a difficult st.eamit~g, to lake one of those grids out ?-Xo, he would have to have ~pecial tools to do that.

109. You IHtve never found that to be done ?-:So, not uukuown to the loco. foreman. It would be the duty of the men who elean the fire boxes a.nd smoke boxes to report that if they founU it had Leen done, as those receptacles arc cleared out every uight.

The w·itness withdrew.

Henry Lewil:;~ examined.

110, By tlt£ Chairman.-\Vhat is your occupa,tion ?-Locomotive Running Superintendent~ Victorian Railwoys.

111. Have you formulated your evidence ?-No1 I cannot s?Ly that I have. I have heard Mr. W ooJroffe1s evidence, and f qnlte agree with all he saiJ. I may mention that J. have hcul au exceptional opportunity of testing most of the spark arresters tht\t have beeu tested by the Departmeut. In addition to boing a mechunical engineer; I huve the advuntuge of being a dri1er on the main line passenger tra.ins, so 1 think I understancl the subject a.s well as any body.

112. You have seen tests made of tho Yarious arresters in the other eolooies ?-Not in the orher colonies ; my experience is confined to this colony,

1] 3. Have you had any experience of tho other arre~<ters other than as a driver ?-I bave teste\l them myself. I think all of them submitted for testing I hn.ve made the test.

114. Were the ar1·e:sters in use in the other colOnies testetl here?-No. 115. You haYO had no experience of those ?-No. ll6. You are uot in a position to express au opinion as to their merits as compared with those in

use in Victoria ?-No. 117. You .are in a position to express an opinion in regat•d to those submitted to the Department ?-

Yes. 118. Do you consiJer any of thoae have any particular merits ?-No, I do not. 119. There is 0110 we noticed to-de.y) the invention of a Mr. Davies. Your report on that seems to

be faVOI'able ?-It might be fu.vorable in regard tfJ its cntchiug the sparks, but ii tbe e11gine will not steam with it it is useless.

120. It seemed, from what you said, that it did not seriously interfere with the steaming ?-It is a long time ago now 1 and I cu.unct remember. I have recorded on every test I have made, antl a.m prepared to substantiate every word l ha.vo said.

l:ll. Some you conshler hotter than others as arresters, hnt they interfere with the steaming'!-Yes.

122. Do you consider that fires do originate from the locomotives in any way, either from the funnel or the fire box ? -I doubt it.

123. Are yon aware it is admitteJ by the Department that fires have originated ?-Yes, and the engines have LePn blamed.

124. Taking the Department's own admission, 1 hey have admitted that the fires have originated?Not from Bpal'ks from the locomotives. lam not aware that they Uave admitted f,hat.

125, Either from the funnel or smoke Lox. \~re hnve n. return furnished to the. Forests Commission admitting it, and that claim~ bave Lee:n made ?------Yes. I was not aware of that.

126. There wag a case a~ Benalla ?-I tbink I gave evidence tlJere. 127. It was prvvetl to the satiefaction of the court that the fire had_ originated from the'Iocomoti\'e1

-I t1id not know that. The verdict was in favour of the DeparL1neut. 128. On what groomlis ?-That the Department had taken a.ll tile precaution possible to arrest

sparks:, nntl that the spark arrest,er -used was the Lest known. l29. As a mattor of fact, was it not proved thfi.t the fire originated from the locomotive ?-I do not

know of Lhat. We i1avo evidence-for instance, the evitleuce in this case-of n.dmission by ~he Department itself that fires had originated, and they ho.ll paiJ compons.ntion. I will ask the ~ecretu.ry to read the statement I refer to by the Department.

The C/erh.-In H\90·-91 the amount paid for grass fires oaused Uy loeoruotives was £3,251 10s.,a.ud the same year for damage to freight in transit, .£1,30::! 14s, ad. In 1891-2 £6 was paid for fires eausW Uy spnrb from locomotiYee. There is a doubtful case, .£98 3s. 6d., compensation pttitl. Since tben nothing has heen paiJ by the Department for damage eaused Uy sparks from loeomotives ; there has Leen for damage to freight in transit, but not for grass fires.

J30. By the Chairman (to t!te 1vitness).-According to that, there was only £6 pa.itl since 1891. We cannot aceept 1891 as <L fuir test~ because wood waa being nsatl then very largely. There was a. snm of .£98 paid ia a. tloubtful case, but I think the doubt -wonlJ be very mneh in favour of the man owning the pa.<lLlock. However, the fact romaius that t1res huve ori:drmted, and there wail the ease in Benalla in which I am not prepared to state definitely of my own knowledge, but I have heard repeatedly that. the fire originateJ by a loeot:notiYe. The point is-how Jo yon think the fires. do originate. If 1ou do admit,

11 Henry Lewis, Uith Attgt~l>t, l!XXI.

for the sake of argumf'ntr thu.t. they do originate fr·om the locomotive, \vhere do they come from~the fun net or the :fire box?-With regard to the fire hox, I may state there is one thing that 'A-fr. 'Voodroffe di(l not mention~ that on 1he HoliFon's llay Iiue they never had an ash pan, and the fire dropped on r!Je li11e. I do not heliave they eTer used an ash pan, and no fire I ever hen.rd of origi1mt-erl from those engines,

131. Then you think, if fires do originate from the engines, it is from the funnel?- Yes, if a.t all. If the ashes come out on the top of a hank, they may roll down the Lo.nk, Lut I never knew of cinrlers to roll outside the fenije.

132. If a strong hot wind were Llowing might they not be carried outside the fence ?-They would not go outsido the fence. The impetus would he in the direction the train waH travelling.

133. You opinion is ilmt fires do not originate from the fire box ?-Yes. 134. If they do orlginate from the loeomotivc it must he from the funnel ?-Yes. 135. lJy ~4lr. GaNrn Du.Ou.-The Department h;we never cxpel"imented with any spR.rk aJTCster in

use in any other colony or conutry ?-NQt that I am awa1·e of. 136. And yon havo conducted all (he tria]s ?-I have conductetl most of the triala on the Viotorian

railways since I havu beeu in the Depnrtmeut-38 or 39 years-aml I have been in the running branch for 36 or 37 years.

137. JJy .1lf.r. rVheeler.~-Are you still in the service?-! am on bolidnys now, but am stiJl in the service.

138. JJy Mr. Kenned,1f.-Have you subjected an engine muler rhose conditions to o.ny practical test as to the possibility of cinders escaping from rho ash pans causing fire?-Wc eau see that from engines running every day on every day trains whetlwr the cinder.; come out of the ash pans or not.

139. Hut as to the liability to cause a fire in grass or timber, or inflammaLio material such as grass blown up Ly the wind on the side of the line. lla\'e you had any prnctical test as to the possibHity of fire originating under such conditions ?-lVc hnve a practieal test every dn-y, as tbe traiur~ rull eYery day, and we could not have nny other test. If tho grMs is dry, anti n.longsiJe the liue1 and~ live cinaer tonehcs itj that would can~e fire.

140. Are you satisfied there are cintlers with sufficient vitality to ea.uec tl1e fire iu dry grass~ e!'caping from the ash pan?-Yes. They eseapc on to the permanent wny and perhaps a little beyond, !Jut 1 hnva not known them to go hey.md the fence. There would be Fnl1icient vilalir,y in them sometimes to set fire to dry grass.

141. Ry Mr. Gm,an Dujfy.-Ha.ve yon known lt where set on fire ?-Only \Yhere a driver broke the regulation, anll knocked the fire out on the Htte.

142, \Ve heard that sleeperfl made of timber just <'nt in two on the Dona.ld line were 8et on fire; have yon heartl of that ?-1 hartlly credit it that a sleeper conltl Le set. :fire to by cinders fTom the Mh pan. H can only he done where the ddYcrs knock the fire ont of the ash pun and tho cintlers roll out of the same.

143. By ... ~1'. 1Vlu:eler.-ls that Jone when standing or running ?-Standing at ~:~tations or sidings.

144. W~hat is the reason they made an alteration in the. tH<.h pan?-The only thing I eau any is, they wanted to be doubly careful.

1 !5. The driver can command it at nny moment wherever standing?-Yes. 146. Therefore there is no security; if he wants more dt·aught he will get it ?-If he is Hkely

to stick np for want of steam he will nse it. 147. By tAe Chai'l'man.-That is where we want yonr opinion. It in nllegetl that the driver8_, when

they find themselves in a tight place~ often throw open the fire box to get an iocrensed dranght, Would tbe.t modify your opiuion?-The driver is justified in opening the damper as widens it will go.

148. \Vhat would be tbe effect of his doing so?-The ashes are more Hnhle to roll ont of the ush pan.

149. Would that he liable to create a fire ?-There would Le n greater number ofcin1lers come out of tbe ash p:m, but no great liahilit,y of cio1lel'~ gccting out.side the f(Hl<:e.

1.'50. Would it he more liahie to en use fire on the permanctH way ?-If there were any very dry stuff snch as gra.ss or other mat~dal it would have a. tmHlency to set lire to it certainly.

151. Have yon conl.rol of the men who burn off ?-Xothing whatc,.·er; that is t-he permanent-way branch. I have nothing to do with them) but all t.o do witb the engines outside of the Newport ehop. •

152. By J.:Jfr. Sangster.-Jf a. driver fitHls himself iu a tight place for want of steam, he woula open his damper as far ns he could. Ho might have e-oa.i that was dirty, and the stoker might pul in his tJnrtnnd touch it up1 and there ls a linbility of cinder~< getting out, and with n stiff breeze blowing, would there not be a tendency to lift them over tho permnneut way ?-No. The way they get over i~ that they bounce, but I ba.ve never known any to get to thn hour.du.ry fence, and the ot1ly time I ho.ve known them to le:t""e the pcrmnnent wny is on tt hank when on the Jown gmdc.

153. Have you ever tried getting nn enginn in such a. poHition, :\nd putting the dart tn nnd lH.l.ViHg people to wa.tcb the effecL ?-If thal were done while the engine wu8 standing; 110t a cinder would leave tbe rails, and if they 1Hd they wnnld go ir1to t.he 5-ft. way.

154 . . ffy Jl.lr. W!teeler.-Ho.ve you ever ki1ownn sleeper set iire to ?-·Ye!!, f have. \Vhen fire hns been dropped 1 or even ~;tirred up} as llr. Hangster stutes, the cinders out of the ash p:1.n wonld set lire to a sleeper, but I ho.ve never known a sleeper p.ct fire to when the t~ngine wo.s travelling by tho ciude1-s from the ash pan, beeanse it would ordy be one or two hero and there; tlwrti conld Le 110 qnantity of them at a time.

The wit1tess witltdrew.

Adjourned to to-mprrow, at two dclock

12

THURSDAY, 16TH AUGUST, 1900. Members pr·esent:

Mn. :McKENZTE, in the Chair; Mr. Dowse\', Mr. Gavan Dnffv, Mr. Graves, · ~Ir. Morrissey,

Charles Emest :Norman, examined.

){r. Sangsle1-, Mr. ·w·heeler, Mr. H. R. Williams.

Jl)5, By lh.e Chairman.-Whatia your occupation ?-Engineer for Existiug Lines, Victorian Htdlways. l56. Have you fonnulu.Loll auy statement 't-No. 157. I understand that you would pref<:lr Mr. 8ims to give the complete evidence, as he has been

examined previously ?-He wns exnmined before the Forests Commission, an11 gnve evidence on a some~ what similar >subject as yon arc ou ; <tttd, as he was asked fot· certain evitlonM, he got np some particulars, and won!d be ready to give cvhlencc before you.

158. We thought we would like to ask you,. 1\S b(:<vl nf the Department, some questions~ one is as to the hours fixed for burning nft the graB~ het\Ycen the railwny line and the fence. In the regulations the hours shall be from two to Mix ?-Not before two <1'cloek p.m. That is iu a(~conla.uec with tho Police Offences Statute, the part dealing witll. the careless use of fire. "\Ve follow that rule.

159. That is. the basis of yonr rogulation l-Yes, to comply with law. 160. Of conrse; you are a.warc that this gives a great deal of dissatisfaction ; a great ma.ny feel

tbe hours are not corre~t ones, and eu.rlier hours would bo more suitable ?-\Ve foel that very mucb our~ selves. We would greatly prefer to hare a. ft·ee hand to burn off when the conditions are most suitable, instead of being compelleJ t.o loRe the rooming, when the wind is not so strong as in tho afternoon, and we have to wait till after t,wo o'clock.

161. There ia another point; yon fix a eerta.in Gay,and instructions are sent out to the ganger that on a certain day he shall burn a specified portion of the line, and when that dn.y comes; no matter what sort of wlnd is blowing, a hot wind or anything ell~e, he lu.\s to proeoed with the work ?-No ; the ganger has no such instructions. Tho respon~ibility rests on him to scled r.he best time. By the law he has to give 24 hours' notice to tho adjoining land~owners, nnd by the time the 24 hours expire the weather coudltions may cha.nge. There may be exceptional circumstauce::J, and he 8hould wait if the conditions change, and ~ive fresh notice.

162. Has he freedom to do tha.t ?~Perfect. X ot even the inspector in charge of a. district in which the ganger is interferes in that respect.

163. By :lfr. Bowser.-Along the line, in the raihvay reserves1 in many places thero are stumps that have been there for a great many years, and arc dry. I understand that every year the grass is eleareLI from around tho~e Htumps ?-Yes, that is part of our instructions to the gangs:. 'fhe ganger has to see that the grass is cleared for 3 feet along the mHwny foncesJ a.nrl 3 feet aronnJ. the stumps or buildings of o. character that might take fire.

164. How long has tbu.t bQcn in force ?-For a.t least ten years. 165. Do you think if tho money that ha.& Ueen expenJ.ed in clearing roun;l the stumps had been

devoted to taking them out, it would have been less ?~It might have been if done in the first place, hnt year after year they go on to.king the stumps out for firewood, and they are disappearing hy degrees.

166. \Vould it Jx> a good policy to take the stumps away ?-I have not gone into the cost. There is no cost in onr chipping ronnd the stumps; it is done by tho ordinary gangs. The matter is not of sufficient magnitude to save any adJit,ions to the staff.

167. It was alleged that the Beech worth fire was started by a stump, and although no fault of the men -who took the ordinary precaution of damping the stump when they left-hut at midnight a breeze epra11.g up : evidently a spark still there was fanned into a flame, and the stump threw up sparks which went into the bigh grass in the field adjoining, a11d it was in the hllls before it could be stopped; it then occnrrfld to the farmer that, as the stumps are so old and like t,:ndor, it might he better to take tbem out ?-I think it is well worth looking into1 as to whether it woulLI not pav d1e Department to burn them out in the proper season.

168. By N'l'. !Vheeler.-Where would you get the wood to burn them out ?-We oould got the wood alongside in mnny cases.

169. It would cost more thatt grubbing them-it wnuM be a costly proceeding ?-1 do not think eo. 170. Would there be any liability of thooo stumps getting on fire by a spark getting into the Ueeayed

stumps ?-A stump wonld have to be very dry for that to happen. I have not beard of any cases of that. 171. By Mr~ Gra·ne.s.-To what extent are sleepers damaged by fire ?-By bush fires? 172. Any fires ?-We scarcely have any cases of them being damaged from onginea, excepting in

cases where engines stand for some time and tho ashes drop ont of the fire box.. For insta.tH~.o, at slations the ashes drop down and burn the sleepers a gooJ deal, or chnr them~ a.nJ they ha•e to be taken out, but we have never had any cn.ses of sleepers hnl"llt on the lines, except hy huah fires. There may be an odJ case that I never hear of. We might ha•e one sleeper in a lOO miles of line in the year, but ?to ha.ve had hush fires, such as ln the celebrated bueh fire down in Gippsland a few years ago, n.nd on the Car:nperdown line, where sleepers wert~ burnt.

173, You mean hy fires that came a.cros:s the line ?-Yes. 174. It has been stated that a great number of sleepers were burnt on the Doua.ld lino in consequence

of the rdeepers not beiag sawn sleepers, hut split fl'Om the onlin:uy wood without the bark bein:z taken off; is that true ?-I never beard of it. That must he beforo my time. The sleepers ou the Douald lino were redgum, cnt into any shape) but all sa.wn,

175. JJy Mr. Wheeler.- Which are tho more li~blo to take fire ?-The split ones I should say; there are more splinters about them.

I76. By _,l["1". H. R. Williams.-You wore in America last year?-Yes. 177. When there, ditl you make any inquiriee as to their spa.rit catching nffairs ?-I did not go into

the apark. catching question. I am sorry I did not, but I ha.J a good many things to go into. It is outsidQ my branch. I ma.de inquiries into matters outside my 1Jranch, but not the spark catching question.

The witne48 withdrew.

George Wrake Sime, e:rn.m.ined. 17ft By tlte Ghailnf!1111t.- Wbo.t is your occupation ?-Chief Assie.tant Engineer for Existing Lines. 179. Have you fonnuiated your eTidence; would yon Jike to make e. i!tatemcnt to t.ho Conn:nittee?

-Ouly so far as this~ that I think the !1est evidence I eau give is to read u fCw rul"es that are issued to inspectors and gangers, hearing on the suhjet't, as trwy seem to me to be so complew as to somewhat exhaust the subject. Tho book I intend reading from ls i:!imed from tlH? Existing Lines Braneh, ami it gi'<reg. instruetions for the guidance of lnspect.ors. 1t is issnellnot only to inspectors, but to all gangers a.s well-[reading as follows:- J

139. The chipping of gras.\! along railway LmmUaries for a width of 3 feet from fence Hne, whether the land is leued or not, is Lobe done before grass buming is eommenood,

140. E'>~ery precaution n.nd Yigilu.nt-'13 must be ol1served ~o avoid the occurrence of fires on railway Jiremises:. Undergrowth, or rmything which might promote the posihiHt.y of fire, must. not he allowed m the vicinity of

buildingst platforms, bridges! culv1;rt8, &t'. Special precaution is t.o be taker.1 in reg-&rd to the sborage of goo\lB of every description. Empluyes are not to light fires in the OJ)en air adjacent to stR.tion buildings, except for burning off graas1 &q

when necessary to have a fire, it must be lit in <L fir-eplace if available; and, if not, a. fire-pot ma.y be placed in the Mfest poeition that ca.n be found, away from all lmildinga a.nd other infL.ommahle muteria . .L

In 611 caaea the employe llgl1ting the tire will be held telll>On.a:ib!e for }m~vcnting it from sprea.ding, through the action of the wind or otherwise.

l4l. Inspectors and gangers are re:ilponsible for the proper serv:ing of IJotiees on all owners or oeeupiers of land adjoining the railway line not less tha.n 24 hours before commeneing to burn off grtlSS (see clause 413, Book of RegulAtions), Where it. is not possible to personally serve such notice, because of the owners living too fa.r away, gangers must be supplied with franked envelopes, and instmcted to forwan:I the noti('es by registered letter. A separate notice must be given for each day's burning off, and the men serving such ;totice rnuet be in attendance at the hour and pln.ce named.

142. Ins~tors must take care that <Lll grass and rubbish lying between the fences on any pa.~t of the railway property shall be burnt off whenever the we<~.thcl' may render it 1'1!\feand practicable to tlo so; and, if the lands outside and adjoining the railway fences should be the p1·operty of the Cro\\-'U or the Railway Department, the graSI'J must aloo be burnt off such lu:uds fm· a.diet<rnce of at least :ro feet from the fences; but previous to any grass being so destroyed, a notice must 00 ser"\'"ed on the owners and oocupierB of the adjoining lands or premises, in accordance with the prQvis.ion.s of the Act to Restrain the Careleaa Use of Fire.

143, The burnintr of gtass must be oommcnced as soon as patches become dry, as by so doing tile continuity of fire is checked. The burnmg oft' tnuat not he commenced Ucfore 2 p.m. Inspectors must, thereft>re, arrange for their men to commenoo work later during the hurniug sea.son, in order that they may hnrn until 6 p. m. each day, or la.ter if neceaaarv; and, as far as possible, the burning shou)d be done on the windward side of the line. Buming off grass must not be dofte on very hot da.ya wieh a strong wind blowing; but the men should, if ncee.isary, be distributed oyer tho most !le.ngerous parts of their lengtllil when trains are passing, to prevent fires from spreruling.

144. When afire occurs, the inspector must mo.ke himselfa.cqua.inted with its origin and extent, and report to the Engineer for Existing Lines immediately, giviug full particulars as to whetber the gra~ wi~hin railway fences had been properly chipped and burnt off prior Lo the fire, the time the fire started, whit,~, period ela1Jsed between the: time it WM first observed .and the previous train hP.J ~etl, the distance from liHe where it. started, full details of damage done, and any other information !hat it is considcre(l desirable to t;nnvey.

145. Every precaution is 'to be taken to prevent gato-llOUSei:l ot other huihlings, whether occupied or empty, from catching fire i a breadth of not less than 12 feet all round each building must he cleared from grass and rubbish, and all loose grass removed. Employes must sec that empty houses are not us:t:d by tramps.

146. Inspectors must instruct g(lngcrs to be careful when burning o!f not to destroy the trees pln.nted at stations. Steps mnst be taken to protect theMe trees frm:n fire, and should IDlj' Le destroyed whilst hnrning off the ganger in cha.rge will be held responsible a.IHi dealt with a.ccordingly.

Those u.re rhe elausee in thi~ book of iustrnct.ious1 and it refers in Ohe case to the lensetJ laml; it says" Whether the land is lensed or not.n Ju the llrinted forms that are used where la.nd is lea~etJ along n Hue for grazing purposes the latter portion of one clause reatls thus :-" A.ntll agree t-o allow the Commissioner, by his officet·s or servants, to enter upon the lano1 and huru. off the gnH\8 sho11ld thoy coushler it necessary.'' So> although the land may he leased, our men lmve perfect tight to go aml hnrn oft if they C-Onsider it necessary. Here-[praduciug a docummt]-is a fvrrn that the men fiH up when they wish to give notice of burning off. It reads thus !-

RAILWAY DEPAR:rMEN1', ExiSTING LrNl!s B.B.ANOH,

l Sr:s,

You al'e requested to take notice thR.t (weathe-r permitting} it ia intended to burn the gra.sa within the Railway Fence and contiguous 'to your la.nd a.t on n-ext, the do.y of , OOtween the hours of and

, a.nd that the requisite preca.utions will 00 observed in doing so.

C. E. NORMAN,

To Engineer o.f Existing Line&.

That is the form that the gangers fill np and deliver to the ruljoining land-owner. In a book called Regulations for EmplO?Jis, issued to everybody in the aer\'ice, there are two or three clauses hearing on the subjeCt, one referriug to gunTJB on Lr3ins. If a guarJ notiees a fire nlong the line, be immediately reports to the nearest gu,ng of repf.l.irer:5, The latter purt of Hegulatiorr No. 280 reads tlms :-HGunrds seeing fire by the side of a line, or in any adjoining field, mmn signal the fact to the nearest repairers, u.nJ ma.ke a ~pecia.l report ou arrival a.t their Jeatiuar.ion/) There is another clause tlmt reads exactly the same as fnr as drivere: and firemen are concerned. J think, so far as I can see. there is vet·y little, if any, to add to whn.t I hn.ve read out from those books.

180, !'here is an impret'lsion tha.t I he grass is not bumt off as early as it might he in many iustanoos; iu fact, I have known a gootl many instances myself where it was very dry before being burnt off. Is the ganger the judge of the right time for burning off? -No! I think it iR the inspecwr who travels up and down r,f.e Une every day, who would he tbe judge of the time when the grass burning should Le eomn:lencetJ. I think the ganger is respousihh; for starting it at a certnin hour or a certain clay, but the inspector wonlU say-•'It is a,bout time to start it."

Hll. I have kuow·n cases myself. naveHiug up and down in the train, where the grass was Leing bnrnt by a gang of meu on a very hot day with a strong north wind blowing. I have often remarked that, it. seemed a dangerous time for Luming otf. Others have rua.de the remark too, antJ that has led w the impression that when a day wa.B fixed the grass was burut off: in spite of conditions ?-It is entirely contrary to regulations to burn off on a l'ery hot day when the wind is unfa.vor.a.ble.

G. W. Sims, 16th Augu~t, 1900. 14

182. Do yon i·oncur 'vith Mr. Norman that the law shm1ld be amended ?-Yes: it would be mnch to t.he adva.ut~ge of the Depn.rtment if we had a free hand in regard to the time. In somo districts the prevail in~ wind is one si1!C in the morning. nnU from another jn the afternoon. If you can only commenct? burning off after two o'clock you may have the wind contrary to what you wantJ and by waiting the grass gets very thy, nn:i th1tt somclimes put,s tho ganger inn Vf!ry awkwanl position.

183. That account<~) perhaps, for what I speak of?-\Ve would appreciate tho nlLcration vory much if matle.

18-!. By 2tlr. IL R. TYU/ianzs,-Do you fitlll that the railway is maUe use of by tramps, to walk over the line?-{ must arJmit I ha\'e seen men w~1lking along the line, bnt His contrary to the regulations.

185. Do 1hcy cn.mp under brillges, and M on ?-\Ye are in the office, and.! do not know, Lut it is not permissible. I mnst say, in travelling along the linos. 1 have seen men walkillg a)Onf! inside the fence.

18';). Have thmw men ever heen prosecuted by the Department for trespn.!:!sing ?-I think so, on the eoal line a.t Kommburm, whel'o they gave wmt~: troubl,;;; hut it was represented to be such a wet place in winter that the on'y clen.n place was the railway line, and r do not think anything was !lone to them.

187. By .:.llr. Rttwser,·······Approximateiy. how many cases during the lnst five years have you had of' damage d\)ue hy fire '!~A ret,urn is being prepared giving you all thn.t information. I do not know whether it is here yet ; if not, you will have it in a, tlay or two. I think something like £200 hn.s heen paid in compensation tiuriug the last five years.

181;. Could yon give us an idea. of Lhe proportion of the claims made n.nd the amount paid?I could not tell you that.

189. Suppose that after a gang has starLed burning on a hot day the wind should change, what provision is there; luwo you water on the spot or anything to put the fire out 1-1 think they have bags and all those appliances, in fn.ct, I am sure thay have, because I have seen them beaJing out a fire.

190. Do they bring water to it ?-I am ttot anre abont water. 191. If you Uhl burning off in the midst of a hot :-;nmmer, next to fields of ripe standing corn, would

it not he dangerous ?-I thll1k they haVa water sufficient to wet their bags ; that is my impression, but I would not. be !ntrc about it,

192. Did yon hear the qt.testion I asked Mr~ Norman about tbe stumps?-Yes. 193. What do you think of the suggestion that the stumps should be taken out at once ?-I think

it would be a very good thing, if it is not too costly. 194 .. A.rc they not so old and so Jry as to he a great danger ; is it not often the case that those

stumps catch fire, aml the fire remains after the workmen leave in tho evening, aud it is smouldering secretly, anU they cannot notice it ?-It is a possible case, and I think it would be better if the stumps were removed; bnt Mr. Norman ia going to inquire into the matter.

19.3. By M1'. graves.-They do bnrn some stumps?-Yes. 196. You :ia.id that a notice had to be given, and Mr. Sormau expla.ineU why the two o'clock was

fix:ed as being in a.ceonlance with the Police Offences Statute. A man gets notice ...... "! hereby give you notice that I shall start at two o'clock to~morrow to burn." Anti if they make changes they must give fresh notice, t.o renew the notice?-Yes.

197. If it were givon at an earlier hour it would he a mnch greater convenience, both to the man occupying the land and the men who have to he sent to a.tteuJ the fire ?-Yes, very much,

198. l3y Mr. Bowser.-If the men burning off: between two and six found, when their time came to leave off at six o'clock, that the winJanJ other conditions were favorable for bunting, would they knock off at that honr?-I think they ure bound to knock off burniug aL that hour. They would remain in attendance aft.er that, if necessary.

199. What I mean is, would they just knock off, at the end of the day's work, in the midst of a. fire, n.nd then begin agaiu~ und do the other ha.lf of that section the next Jay?-If I understand you rightlyt thoy would have to do that. They cannot start l.mrntng after six o'clock. It must be between two and six~ and if they have not finished at six o'clock they mast resume another time.

200. Do you not think provision slwnld be made .in the ease of a seetion 5 or 6 chains in length if you hud three.fourths of the section burnt, and 1 chain nr 2 remaining, do yon knock off promptly at six o'clock, anti then resume the next day ?-Tba.t is a detail \Yith which I am not acqnalnted, but I know that tbey do not make a ft-edh fire after six: o'clock. I am not aware that they have sections arl you try to describe.

201. JJy .1Wr. Gr(lt-'e&.-Is it not a fact tlnn the notice points ont where they are going to commence, at such and such a mite-post?-Yes.

202. They au.y-1' I beg t.o give you notice it is tho intention of the Department to commence

burning at snch and Huch n. mile· post 11 ?-Yea . .203. What time are their hours on those summer days when they pdncipully burn; have they

different times at different seasons of the year ?-Apparently, the ru[e provides that they must begin later atHl work later.

204. While burning off ?-Yes. 205. On an ordinary day thoy finish their work a.t five o'clock ?-At balf-past four. 206. On '' burning Jl days they remain on for a longer time ?-Aslong as necessary to put the firoont. 207. The usual termination of their day's work ia fivo o'clock ?-No, half-paet four. 208. And sometimes it ends eartier, and sometimes later ; in the snromer days: it is a longer day's

work ?-···-It is the same length of day, but they comme:tce ruulier. 209. By the Chairman.-Arc the lines kept perfectly free of weeds between the rails ?-I cannot

say that they are, 210. Of course, we do not know whether the state of things we haTe heard of exists at the

pre:!cut time, but I have heard of lines with the gra.se growing U!l between the sleepers, and the live embers fall down. and set fire to them ?-lt would be imllUssible to keep all the weeds Jown, but if a man has several miles of line under him he endca.vours to keep them J:own.

211. You do not kuow whether such a state of thing is possible, as the weeds: growir.g up to such an extent that the fire falling from the fire boxes would set fire to them~ and .some of the fire blows acroS.$ the fence ?-1 Jo not think it is very probable.

212. Do you think it is possible ?-Of eouroo, that may be possible.

15 G. W. Sime, 16th Auguet, 1900.

213 . .By Mr. Gava.n Duff.y.-What is your allowance of men in proportion to mileage ?-For a single line a ganger nnd two men wouhl have about 5 miles.

214. Is thnt. the usual proportion; I iJwught it was a mile a man ?-Of eonrse on tlH~ donblc and busier lines it is a little less mileage to a gung. Jn some cases it is even more thtm Umt.

21.1. Is tlwre any general provision allowed in railway statiRtic::; ?--It depends on the amount of business done. If t,here is only one train a day the line Jocs not require as much attention as if there were many trains, ·

216. By Mr. Graves.-Is not thn.t varieJ very mnch as to management. When you were on the ecouomicalaystem, were tbere not many men less employed on the gangs '!-Yes, I think so.

217. Is it not a fa.et that they reduced one man in every five ?-They did make a reduction, but I tlo not know to what extent.

218. You do not know that the weeds, when that 1Yas doue1 became a very dangerous item in the matter?-No, it was before my time.

219, By Mr. Btnnser.-.Js there aOOut: the same number of men employed in a gang in New South '\Vales a.s here ?-I think the pmctice is ahour, the same.

220. By ~Mr. Gra,.,•es.-The hc.o.d ganger has to go over every portion of the line, allsolutely every ineb of his section, once a day ?-Yes, once a day; 1 am not very sure whether the ganger has to do i~ absolutely.

221. He is responsible; if he does uot go be must semi some otheT man ?-Thcganger, or one of the men in t.hc gang, bas to go over the whole length of the section.

222. Ry J,1:1r. BQwser.-Who is responsible for any unr<',a.sona.b]c or negligent act iu buruing off?The ganger of the length.

The witne8t withdrew.

Adjourned ta Wednesday nezt, at two o'clock.

WEDNESDAY, 22ND AUGUST, 1900.

Mr. Bowser, Mr. Gavan Duffy; Mr. Graves,

J..Uembf!rs present:

McKENZlE, in the Chair;

I Mr. Kennedy, Mr. Sangstcr.

Henry I>arsons, examined. 223. By tlte Cl~tan.-\Vhat n.re you ?-Inspector of Permanent '\V ay on the Victorian Railways

in charge of portion of the Gippsland district, locnted at Sale. 224. How long have you been iu the position of inspector ?-Over eleweu anti a half years Exisdng

Lines, and about three years on Construction. 225. Have you been in other districts during that time ?-Only six months from Caulfield and

Mordialtoc and round Mornington way. 226. Your experience is confined to the Eastern district of the colony?-Yes. 227. Jlave you had any direct experience in connexion with fires tha.t have been alleged "'ere

created hy railway locomotive!!!?-There have been fires in the district supposed to L.ave been caused by locomotives.

228. Did you make inqniries into those en uses yourself ?-No, the mode is to report to the }felbournc office. V\r e E>ndeavonr to find out what particulars we can, but hare never found nny direct evidence that the locomotive caused the damage.

229. 'When the allegations were made you reported to your chief ?-Y cs. 230. \Vel'e you then instructed to inquire into those causes?-Ae soon as a fire occurs the instruc-

tions are to make ourselves acq1.1aintcd with the origin of the fire, if possible-we do that. 231. '!'hen you did make inquiries as to the origin of those .fires ?-Yes1 as well as we could. 232. HoV>~ many Uid you have to inquire into ?-I dare .say a dozen or more. 233. 'Where persons alleged the fires were caused by the locomotives ?-No. There have been no

claims witl1 the exception of one ; that is the late Cowwarr fire, but the inquiries would take place independent of any claim sent in l)y the property-holders.

2i.i4. What would cause the inquiry to be inetituted ?-To endeavour to find out the origiu of the fire aa well as possible.

235. Without any prompting on the part of the land.holders ?-Yes. 236. Or any da.im or allegation on their part whatever?-Yes. 237. Do J understand that your Deva.rtment inquires into the origin of all fires that have been

destroying the grnss aud paddocks close to the l'ailway lines ?-We endeavour to do 80 a8 well as we can. 2.'38: Without any complaints hcing ma.de by the land-holders?--Yes; that is a standing

in:;trudiou. 239. In carrying out these inquiries have you ever had occasion to hefievo tha.t the fires were

eansed by a railway locmnotive ?-It is very doubtfuL 2±0. Have you ever had any evidence such as you could rega:rd as direct evidence tho.t the .fires

were caused bJ' the railway locomotives ?-In one instance I believe I had. 241. What happened in that case ?-It was a very dry day; the men were on the look ont for any

fire occurring on the length the engine passed and a fire oeonrred immediately after the engine passed. The repairer ,:;aid he was 011 the feuce watching it, but I had only the repairer's word for it.

242. Did that m'eatc mooh damage 1~It burnt several hundred aerce of grass. 243, Did the Department pay compensation ?-Not that I am awaro of. 244. Dld they refuse to pay it ?-I am not a. ware that there was any elaim.

16

245. In 1unking such inquiries, you are instruct~d to obtain evidence ns to whether the fire originated through a railway locomotive ; what would you call direct evidence. If it could be proved that the lire originQted about ten minutes after the traiH passed close to the Hne, would you eaU that direct evidence ?-It may be direct evidence that the fire came from Lbe train, hut not direct evidence that it catne from the locomotive.

246. If it started five minutes after ?-Even if it started immelliately, that is no direct evidence that it eame from tbe looomotive.

247. You think it might have originated through the butt of a cigar being thrown out. or anything of that description ?-I do.

248. SuppOse the fire originated outside tho fence, would you think the butt of a cigar wou]d have been thrown tha.t far ?-I should think not.

249. \Vould you call th.at direct evidence ?-A cigar or a match might be blown there by the wind. 250. What would you regard as direct evidence that th<~ engine ha.d created the fire ?-I do not

know that 1 could expresH an opinioH on that. 251. It would have to be tha.t a ~'>park was soon to loave the cugine, and seen to f,ouch the grass

and start the fire ? -That would he direct enough. 252. Would anything short of that be ?~I do not think it would. 253. Then it is practically impossible to get direct evidence that at;y fire hn!S been lit by n railway

locomotive ; that was the only ex:perience timt you had where it waii admitted. that it came from the locomotive ?~Not we would not admit it even then.

254. On what grounds ?-We were never flSkcd to admit it. 255. Your own employ6 said he SB.w the fire start?-Yes. 256. And he attributed it; to a spark from the eugine?-The fire commeucetl itniuerliatcly nfter the

engine passed. 257. Wbat UlJ. the repairer attribute it to ?-He would not give an opinion; he simply reported in

the usual way. 258. That the fire had started immcrliately after the train p:ts~cJ. '?-Yea. 259. He dhl uot ex:pre~l'l nu opiniov. as to whether it wu.a a ~park from the engine, or an ember from

the fire box, or a cigar butt ?-In this Ci>Se lt wns nimply au engine without any van. 260. Then it had to cmue from the engine in some form ?-Y as, in this case. 261. By M1'. Kennerf,lj.-H.avc you had any aclual tests, un(lor yonr own observation:\ as to the

possihility of escape of sparks of a dangerous character, or cinders from the fire box ?-Tha.t would be more for the enginemen to say.

262. Have you had any ca.rrieU out under your ollservation ?-No. 263. Then you caunot sn.y from your owu observation as to whethor H is possible '\'Vhether sparks

of a dangerous character can esc.ape through tho:-e nrrestern that are in use, or through the ash pan, as ordinarily used on the line ?-0;o; l cannot. say for certain. Fires occurr but it is difficult to trlloce them.

264. Under your own ob,:;ervatlons, have any t.ests been carried ont as to the possibility of fires arising ?-Ko.

265. By M't'. Grave8.-You said that the repairer reported ~fire; JiJ. you go to sec it·r-No, I sent a ganger to count fencing posts bnrJtt, &c.

266. DiU you go to thfit. at any time ?-I passeJ by it in my ordinary duty. 267. Did the fire tn.kc place on t.he Hue ?--ln the pnrlJock. 268. Then the probabilities are that that w-as a. a park ?-Ye.~, there is the possibility. 269. Can you say as to those other fires whetlwr they were ontaido or inside the fence ?-OutaiJ.o

tbe fen~e. 210. Have you found, in yorn experience, that cinders from the engine, from the ash pan~ have set

fire to. the permanent wa.y under your management and control ?-Not directly. Still~ I am of opinion that the cinders do drop from the fire boxes.

27L Do they sometimes burn the sleeper.s ?-Not the sleepers ; the may ignite the grass ; I do not say they do, but it is possible.

272. Sometimes those fires smoulder for hours ani\ hours ?-They would not smoulder very long. 273 . .By Mr. Bowser.-Y ou arc in charge of tbe burning ofr?-YeA; the gangers are under my charge. 274. The regulations, I understand, provide for your burning off in the summer between two and

six ?-Or later, if necessary. 275. Supposo yon arc hurning off, and the wind has changed about six o'clock, do you continue the

work after six, if necessary, or do they knook off ?~The gangers -.re instructed; it is left to their judgment. If. they can, with adva11tu.ge to the Department and safety to the country, burn off to advantage, they do ao ns late as they choose.

276. They knock off when it is safe ?-Yes. 277. There are a contJidernble nnmber of stumps along the line in tho reserves ?~They arc getting

fewer every year. 278. You are not making any attempt to take tbem out ?-Only in a few ~u.aes; sente gangers do;

we chop munrl the stnmpa every year. 279. How many years have you being doing that ?-Hevernl years. 280. Are those stumps dry now?-Yes. 281. In faet, they are like tinder !-Some of them are pretty dry. 282. In buruing off, after a day's work is finished and they n.re putting out the :fires, is there not. a

great danger of ~park8 lurking in those stumps and being blown 1nto a. flame about midnight in the summer by the breeze that comes often at tllat time ?-The irlea of chopping round them is to keep the fire from gctti ug in them at tlll.

283. Have you ever knowr of u. stump igniting during the nighc 1-No; it may have occurred without my knowing it.

2~4. In my district there was a ca.:;a where a. stump remained in the midst of the burning off whieh was supposeU to have beer. put out, hut at midnight. a breeze sprang up and put the whole country afire ; would it not he safer aud more economical fox the country if the Dep~rtment toek the stumps out entirely ?-In the long run I dare a&y it would.

285. If there are "standing crops where the line runs through in the summer, do you stnl continue burning o:ff the grass on the reserve?-We have only tt few cases in my district with standing crops next the line, along the line ; .it is mainly gmss.

286. You have had no e.xperieDee of the districts where the crops are growing along the line?Only in one case on the Boisdale Flats ; the land on the line in that case was cropped hy the tenant, and the crop is cut while green.

287. Do you think the snfest way of controlling the grass on the reserves is by burning ~tl'?-1 think the system adopted by the VictoriaD Railways cannot be very mnch improved on, because 1t ie a. fire-break throughout the length and breadth of the country, a national fire-break. If there were no burning o:ff, s. :fire woulil come from the bush, cross: tlu; line and go over a very extensive tract of country.~ whereas at present when a bush fire ie n.ppros.ching, the line repairers see the smoke, and they do wbat they can to arrest the fire and pnt it out.

288. How many men a.re usually in char$!6 of the burning ont ?-There are gang.e, some three, some four.

289. What ia the length of a section ?-Four men, 6 milea. 290. Might they be burning on a hot-wind day ?-No ; that ia against the rngulations. 291. They m&y burn in the middle of snmmer?-Yea, in suitable weather when the wind is blowing

in the right direction. 292. Suppose that in the midst of their work the wind changed, aud the graos suddenly got beyond

their eontrol, what provision have yon for extinguisldng the fire ?-None at all. 298. Do you not t&ke tanks of water ?-The gan~r may take a hueket or two of water on his

trolley to wet the bags. 294. Is it not mther dtwgerous where there are standing crops and the grass 2ft. 6in. in the

reserves that you have in tbe middle of summer no pm vision to check a fire that may get beyond your control ?-It certainly wonld be better to hs.ve some provision; but what oonld you have ?

295. You eoulJ have a truck of water ?-It wonld be very expensive. An engine with water train wonld have to be employed.

296. You have no provision to check the fire with wntcr if it got beyond the control of the gangers 7 -So. I think the provision would be for every knd.owner to try and protect himself as well as for the Department to protect him. Our experience is that the ln.nd·ownere do not care about it fit all; they are not even present. They get 24 hours' notice to be present. There tlre only two personr; in my district who do anything to prevent fires coming from the railway on their property, and this on ~nly 5 miles out of 130 miles that I have. The land-holders practically do nothing. Tbe Railway Department have to uo everything.

297. By li>Al Chailrmani.-As to those land-holdora who do nothing, do not you think they have a right to expect that if the Department is burning off it will prevent the fire encroaching on them ; they naturally look to th.e Department when buro.ing off to do the work: themselves ?-The Department do all the work, and theu tak:e every precaution that is possible, within reason.

298. But do not you think that tho land-owners have the right to expoot t.hat if the Department undertakes to born off tboy will do the work without applying to them ?-Yes, but I think that it is only reasonable that every man should try to protect himself.

299. If they think there ie danger; have you known any cases in which the tiro has got away from your men ?-Only in one case it is alleged to have got n.wo.y.

300. Do you not admit that it did ?-The ganger was present; I was not. Ho •dmitted that it burnt a few acres on the side of tbe line; that is the only case of the kind I can remember.

301. You are compelled, according to the Police Otfonoos Statuto, to burn oft' after two o'clock ; you cannot burn l~eforo; do you think that condition hampers you in burning ofF?-Yes, 1 do, very much. I think that is a mists.ke.

302. If that is so with the railways it is so with land-holders generally, that aeeording to the Police Offences Sta..tute no oue c&n hum off earlier than two o'clock in the day; you think you should be at liberty to burn off at any hour of the day that •ui~' you by giving due notice to the adjoining land-holders 1-Ycs.

303. By Mr. Gra•es.-You said that the land-own""' did not take much interest in the matter ; is it not common sense that having got notice it is then for them to be prepared to protect their own propert7? -I should think that to he the object.

304. You said the liDe acts aa a break for fires ; &re you a ware wbether it is a fact that constantly fires come in towards the ra.i.lway, and stop a.t the railway fenoo in consequence of thls break ?-Yes.

Tke toil'lltss toitkdrew.

Wiltiam Ley, examined. 305. By the ChaW.,um.-Wbat are you ?-Inspector of Permanent Way, slationed at Seymour.

I have oharge o-£ portion of the North-Eastern district-from Essondon to A venal and Rush worth. 306. How long have you been inspector ?~Eleven years. 307. Where have you been stationed during tba.t time ?-Seven yea.rs on the relieving etafF e.ll

over the colony. 308. During that time nave you had occasion to inqnlre into the origin of a.ny fires alleged to be

caused hy a. railway locomotive ?-Not to make technical inquiries from the adjoining property-owners, but from a railway point of view l have made inquiries.

309. Have you had to make many sucb inquiries where tt was alleged the fires were caused by the locomotives ?-I can only remember two.

310. Did you inquire into cases brought under notice by the gangers?-Yes, a number of those! have not any idea of the approximaW number-there would be a dozen, or more.

3ll. In regard to thoae two particular casaa, wero there n.ny railway officials asa:ociateU with you in the inqniries ?-Yes; there were lfr. Taverner, the surveyor, and the district inspector. Tbe case was at Tungama.h some years ago-I almost forget abont it. The result of the inquiry at Tungama.b was that the :fire broke away from the gaDger when burning off.

812~ Did the fire do much damage ?-Y cs, it burnt some 1.50 acres.

81'/llA. 0

Wnllt;m L#y, 2:hld August, 1~ 18

313. Was any compensation n.Uowed to the persons who suffered ?-I cannot say. 314. \V hat was the date of that inquiry ?-I cannot give that without referring to my diary. I will

se11d the particulars to the Committee. i>l5. Did the Department a.dmit that the fire had been caused through the fire getting away from

the ganger?-Yes. The reoont case is the Broad ford. 316, What waR the result in that case?-I ca-nnot say what the result is. I was not appoiuted to

take the evi~lence of the Board, h:tt only to render assistance in my capacity as Pcrmu.nent Way Inspector. 3li. You know the finding was that there wa8 no direct evidence of fire?-Yes. SHL Cau you tell uE what would be regarded as direet evidence that the fire had been caused by a

spark from a locomotive from the fire box or the funnel. If a train passed and a fire broke out ten minutes afterwards, would you think that tlirect evidence ?-I wonld hartUy r.blnk that direct; if I wore present and observed the comlit.ions and surroundings I might he able to say.

31~. You heard the evidence of tbelastwitness ?-Yes. 320. Do you endor~e his views in the mutter that nothing short of seeing a spnrk leave the engine

nnd aright on the gra~s wonld prove it was eau sed by a locomotive?-Yes, I think that would be evidence. If a. person were on the ground standing there and sclw the surrounding conditions he might say whether it was crmsed by the eugiue.

321. I understood him to say unless you could trace the spu.rk from the engine to the grass tbat the fact of the flre originating immediately after the train passing would not he proof, as it might be due to a cigar-butt, or anything ?-I recognise it iE almost impossible to see a spark in the day time, but if a person were stnnding close by and saw the circumtitu.nce in the place where the fire originated he might ho able to determiuo then.

322. You agree with him that it is very difficult to get direct evidence ?-Certainly. 323. ln regard to the Hpn.rks from the funnel or fire box, have yon had experience in_that matter to

eMble yon to express an opinion as to whether the fires are more likely to originate from tbe fire hox than the funnel?-Of course, there is always a certaiu liability of the fire getting out of the fire box of a. train travelling at a great rate, but I have never kno\vn of a case where the .fire has burnt outsHe the railway fence fro-m that cause.

3:&4. "\Y ould you regard it as an impossibility for a spark to be drop pod by a train ami conveyed by the wind outside the fences ?~··~In some places it would be almost an impossibility; in others the line is much narrower) and then there are embankments.

325. Ill such cases it would he possible f-It may Le. 326. You hearJ what 1\ir. Parsons said as to the hours of burning off; do you approve of his views?

-I certa.inly think we a1·e hampered as to burning the grass, two o~clock being the hottest part of the dny, nnd there is more likely to be a change of wind at that time; the dn.nger is increased by having to comply with those conditions of the statute.

327. You have not.iced in the weath~r couditions that frequently in the forenoon ~he wind is blowing from the south in the ;:mmmer; I understaud you burn off: in order to take advantage of the wind, to have the wind blowing on to the rails !-The regulations nnd instructions to gangers are that in no ease is a firo to be lit when the wind is btowing high or contrary to the side oithe line where we want to burn.

328. It might so happen w-hen you wanted to hurn on the south ~ide of tlle line that the wind might he blowiug for several days from the south in the morning and the north iu the aftenwon; the result might bo that you might not be able to burn one side of ti113 line for several days, nnd during that time the grass would be getting rapidly dry and into a dangerous condition for hurning; has thu.t ever happened in your experience ?-It happens every ycur.

329. You reg~Lrd that as heing almost entirely due to the regulations under the Police Offeneee Statute ?-Yes.

330. JJy A'lr. Graves.--Y nu heard the evidence of the previous witness where he said the Land~ owners do not take any care about the matter ; do they on your line ?-No.

331. In yonr district the fires would be disastrous to the land-owners ?-Yes. 332. ln the eugines on your line, have they protection tn the fire boxes ?-Yes, as far as I know. 333. '\Vas that precaution taken believing that damage might Le done by the cinders ?-I cannot

say; I know it is n preventive. 334. You thiuk it has been so?-Y cs. 335. HaTe you seen. the sleepers burnt by the fires on a.ny of the Hues ?-Yes, I have noticed

sleepers charred by the tire. 33ti. If a cinder faH~ on a particnla.r kind. of iron bark it doos not burn so tluickly, but on grey or red

box it wouhl sJumber for some time ?-There would be a tendency for it to smoulder; it could not create a flame owing to being surrounded hy ths hallu.st,

337. Have you evtr seeu the ,stump~ that hfl.vo heeu hnl'ning a. day or two after a fire ?-No. 338. Do they not take water to put those ont ?-Yes. 339. That water is hronght up on a trollcy?-Ycs; it is obtained at tbo gato..honses, or where

water is stored on the line. 340. They take sutllcient to put out those stumps ?-Yes; they are all chipped round. I know on

the Gonllmrn Valley Hne they hnve hceu huruin~ the stumps oft' there for the last twenty years. 341. They u.re principally box, and when they get a.ligbt they will smoulder for days ?-Yes, you

must nsc the water to put them out if they should happen to get alight when burning off. 342. One of those stumps would bm·n for feet into the ground?-Yes, if left aloue. 343. Wa:5 it suggested to you that there could be anything done to mitigate those fires ?-Yes. One

thin()' I would .'lnggest is that we be empowered to use onr discretion as to the hours of burning, and that the Property~owners be obliged to render assistance when we are burning. We n.re compelled before we can start any fire to give them in person 24. hours' notice that we intend to burn. It is a common thing for us to supply uoticcs six or seven times, owing to the wind being uufavorable, and in none of those ea-seE~ do the peoplo turn up to render !lsSil'ltance. There are some isoiatCd eases where the farmers take the preo:wtion to plough along the Hne, but in 90 per cent. they take no notice of ihe notices.

344. Do you know whether the owners adjoining put plough furrows out~ide the Hue to protect themselves ?-There are a few who do.

·-

19 Wllllam Ley, 22nd August, 1900.

345. Do you know that private owners who burn on the land have to give notice to their neigh-bour!;?-Yes; I know there is no notice supplied to the Department wben they are burning off.

346. Consequently the railway i8 damaged by tires coming across it ?-Cert.ninly. 347. You do not know how these fires ariEle?-No. 348. Wonld not a man be n.s likely to be cnlled in quefltioa for the damage as you would ?-Yes. 349. You think the courRe ought to he altered ?-Yes. 350. And made compnlsory on the owners to attend where you are burning cff ?-Yes. 351. By Mr. Bowser.-Do you not think tlwt if you were burning in summer it might be a

great inconvenience to the farmers to leave at harvest. 1f yon ha.d to do in the fnture as you have in the past, give notice six times without being able to burn off, wonld not that be a loss to a farmer in the middle of harvest ?-Yes. The notice says-" We will burn, weather permitting." If the wind is blowing on towards his property, he will know we will not burn.

352. He might make arrangement~ to go ar1d then find you did nothing. In that case ho would employ a hand six times to take his pla.ce ?-Yes.

353. However, you think that in the main assistance could be given to you and protection to the farmer himself by his being on the spot?-Ye8.

354. As to the stnmps, would not it ben safer thing and cheaper in the long run to take the whole of the dry stumps ont ?-It would be mnch Ra.fer, hnt when you come to consider that, there would bo some millions of stumps on the lines throughout the colony.

355. Is uot it a very great danger considering the dryness; l speak of when the line was first made and their heing burnt out from year to year?-The majority of those in now would not hurn; they arc big solid stumps tha.t would take a considemble a.mount of fuel to light them. The telegraph poles and the bridgeR, and the culverts, aml stumps have to be chopped round to prevent fires.

356. That shows you think the stumps a danger?-Yes. 357. Every yea,r they are becoming tlrier a.nd more dangerous ?-They are getting fewer every

year. We have removed hundreds of them the last few vears in the winter time. 358. Do not you think from your experience it w~uld be better if the Department took the whole

of those stumps out at once ?-YeR, I think it would be better; it would obviate the necessity of chopping round them.

359. By M1'. Graves.-! suppose the objection to ta.king ont the stumps would be the extra expense to the Department?-Yes.

360. Have yon any idea about what the contract price for taking out stumps is, onlinarystnmps ?-No. 361. Would you be surprised to lf'arn it is about 5s. a stump ?-I have no knowledge of that. 362. Do yon know tl1at contracts are let by fnrmers and the Uailway Departmemt at that price to

take them out ?-No. 363. By the Chairman.-Do you give notice to the land-holJers on both sides of the line when

burning off?-Only the side adjoining the owner 1vhere we intend to burn off. 364. The wind is blowing from tho~c land-holders towards the line ?-Yes. 365. If the wind suddenly got very strong, which would bo in most danger, the one across the line

or the one behind the wind ?-If 'the foreman in clw.rge of the tnuning-off considered the wind dangerous 1 he would have the fire put out.

366. Still, as a matter of fact, do not you think there is Yery little danger of fire breaking out in the direction from which the wind is blowing?-Y cs. There is a large element of danger in setting fire to the railway ground during summer mouths, but we use the utmost vigilance to keep it under proper control.

367. Have you known a case where a fire did get away during the burning off ?-That Tungamah case was the only one.

368. You do not remember whether that fire originated from sparks across the line or burning backwards from the side he was burning ?-It originated on the side he was hurning.

369. Do you remember whether it was due to change of wind ?-It was an embankment of 12 or 14 feet. In burning along the cutting it would not havo such a clear course as in the open pln.in, and it was in a case of that sort where it broke away from lhe ganger.

370. In that fire a.t Broadford wns there any definite allegation as to where the fire came from ?-No. 371. By Mr. Graves.-You have been eleven years in your present position. I notice the tracks

are mnch clearer of weeds and dirt thau they used to be eleven years n.go; is there instmetion now, more than in the past, to keep the lines clean ?-Not n.ny closer instructions. The 0nly fresh instructions that I can think of that are in exist.cnce now and wcro not eleven years ago are that the system of weeding is kept distinctly separate from other items of maintenance. For instance, repairing a line, repn.iring the fences~ burning the grass, chopping the grass, all those things are kept separate; each ganger keeps the items separate in his diary.

372. Is it not more expensive now iu keeping tho road between the rails cleaner than it wa.s some years ago (-Some five or six: years ago, speaking from memory, when Mr. Wheeler was Commissioner of Railways, he authorized some poisoning process, and the weeds were allowed to grow; that is how the roads became so dirty; it has taken years to clean that off.

373. It appears to me tha,t the North-Eastern line is as clean as a walk in a garden; it was not f!O

some years ago; was that advancement ma.Je to preserve the sleepers or to protect from fire ?-It is one of the essentials of maintenance to keep the line clear 0f weeds in the interests of drainage and dryness of the road bed.

T1M tm'tntss withilrMD.

John Ryan, examined.

373A. By the Chairman.-What are you ?-An engine-driver, stationed at North Melbourne. Theso last two years I have been running on the suburban lines; before that on alllines

1 tho North Eastern and

Ballara,t, and all other main lines. 374. There has been a difference of opinion expressed to the Committee as to whether fires are more

likely to originate from the sparks of the funnel or the fire box-which do you think is the most likely to emit dangerous sparks ?-The sparks come from both, but if the regulations are carried out properly, using ceal, there are very few sparks from either.

oz

John B1an, !2Dd August, HIOO. 20

37.5. Is it possible for alive spark to be carried from the coal box to the grass outside the line?I do not think so, if the regulations are carried out.

376. Not under any circumstances ?-No. 377. Such as the train passing over an embankment and the box being opened to get a good

draught to get over n. pinch; would it be possiblo then ?-There might be some drop down the bank, but if the instructions are carried out as to the damper no harm would result..

378. Suppose the instructions are not carried out, would it be possible then ?-Not if the instructions are carried out.

379. If a man has a difficulty in getting his engine up a stiff embankmont ?-You require more draught on 11 flat ; it is harder steaming than going up a bank; yon get a bigger blast on the fire, and the engine steams better.

380. There is more strnin on the engine?-Yes. 381. You require a gre11ter blast getting up a pinch than on the level ground ?-Yes. If any

sparks came up it would be from the funnel aud not from the ash pan. The only possibility of fire from the ash pan would be coming down an incline whore the engine is rolling, and if the damper is down to the first notch they will strike the damper forward and will not go outside the line, but will stay in between ihe rails.

382. Do you think it is possible for sparks to come from the funnel to create a fire outside the fence ?-I have never seen it.

383. In your experience you have never known of a fire to originate uear a line which there was reason to suppose was mused by the locomotive ?-Only once, on the Ballarat-Ballan line. On that occasion I do not see how it was possible for the fire to originate with the engine, because there was only one van on.

384. Have you evor known of any of the rolling-stock behind the engine taking firo ?-:Ko; I haTe seen t11rpaulins, not on the train but stored at stations, burnt, with little holes on them.

385. Would they be as far from the permanent way a.s the fence usually is from the line ?-Yes, about four trucks.

386. And have you never known cases in which tarpaulins were burnt on the train behind the euglne ?-No.

387. Or trucks of straw set on fire ?-I have heard of cases, but have no personal experience of it. 388. Have you had any experience of other spark 11rresters besides the one now in use by the

Department ?-Yes. 389. Some inventions that the Department has been asked to adopt ?-Yes. 390. Have you tested them ?-Yes. 391. What ones have you tested ?-Mr. Anderson's. 392. You used an engine with that one ?-On one occasion. 393. How did you find it act ?-It was in 1893. I put in a report the day after in reference to the

trial, and I almost forget the circumstances ; you eau get that report. There were some teu or twelve arresters I tried ; some we could get 3 or 4 miles with, aud some 8 or 10 ; others we got to Sunbury with ; but we h11d to stop to replenish with wood, and they all put wood sparks out of the funnel.

394. Did you find thnt those turesters you tric,l were moro effective in preventing sparks than the one used by the Department ?-There was oue that prevented the sp"rks, but also prevented steam and everything else.

395. Of course, there would be no difficulty in inventing a spark arrester better than the depar'mental arrester, but might prevent the steam too ?-Yes.

396. Do you think any of the arresters tried were equ11l to the departmental arrester ?-No, I think the departmental one gives the most satisfaction.

397. Can you give particulars about any other arresters ?-There was Allibon's; we oould not get along with that at all.

3Y8. It is still in use on the Moama line ?-He was on the engine, and I left with 140 lbs. of steam at North Melbourne, a first-class fire. and I dare not put any water till I had gone some distance; if I had put any in anywhere else it; would have stopped. There was another trial at the Royal Park ; I had the same oxperience there. We had 250 tons of coal on. There is a grade to Footscray right from South Kensington. .

399. Not a heavy one ?-It is heavy enough with a load on. 400. It appears strange th11t a spark arrester that has given satisfaction for a number of yaarB, and

is still used by a private compauy running from Moama to Deniliquin, and carrying heavy stock loads, should have given you that result. They use nothing but wood there?-We were steaming with wood on this occa.sion that we used Allibon's arrester; we used wood on all the trials.

401. That is not so good for keeping up steam as coal ?-No. 402. You had experience during the coal strike ; was it not a fact that during that time the ordinary

trains were frequently stuck up with the departmental arrester ?-Yes ; not actually stuck up, as they went ou to a spot where they knew they could start, aud filled the fire up again ; the fire boxes were not constructed for wood. We had to stop after going 8 miles, and then fill the box up again.

403. It was not such a great failure on the part of Allibon's if you got as far as Sunbury ?-We only got as far as West Footscray with his.

404. Do you remember whether you had to stop at Footscray on any oeeasion during the coal strike with the departmental spark arrester on ?-No.

405. As to any of the other arresters, do you remember the particulars ?-They were mostly a.ll the same. Some we got to West Footscray with ; we had to fill with water there.

406. Was Mr. Allibon proseut himself ?-Y cs, to the best of my belief. As all inventors were on at the trial of their arresters, I think Mr. Allibon was also.

407. Did ho supervise the firing ?-He did not object to anything; he looked on, and saw the fire before we started.

408. You say you only know of one fire caused by the engine you were on ?-They put it down to that. I could not beliove it was that, because I had only a very light draught on. I reported that I saw no fire on the journey to Ballan, but on coming back I saw where about an acre had been hurni; it had been noliced, I suppose, by somebody.

21 John Ryan, 22nd Augullt, 1000.

409. By .Df.7. Graves.-Cn.n you suggest anything that would mako those accidents Jess numerous? -No, I do nnt see that tlw Depart men\: eau tlo any more than they Jo. I havo been driving seventeen years.

410. You say you Jid not see, from trials, n.ny arrester tlmt impressed you as more advo.ntageonH thn,o the Rniiway Dcptn·tment arrester ?-Tlwt i~ ;;o,

411. That prcaent impl'Ovament tha.t we hu.ve the model of here was not all adopted nt once ?-In the wintm· time the Depllrtrnent only uses one grid, the botto~u ouc; that is fixed lower. It is more perfect now than it was at the commencement,

412. Are fires less numerous now?-Ye.'!, I n•1'.Y seldom hea1· of ft fire. 413. Cttn you suggest any way of giving greMer prot.eetiou ?-No. The regulations of the Depa.rt~

mont as to the fires a.re very strict in the summer t[me ; the box tf) bo kept like thnt-[ explainiug ]-the firo boxes worked close, and the damper working at the fir."lt notch.

414. Thnt means the protection t.lmt when the cinJer'! drop they drop down on the track?.-Yea ; there !U'O three notches on the engiue-[slwwiuf!J· There is only a smn.H space then botwcon the aflh pan and the damper. Anything rollingdm-vn hits the llampenmd goes h) the ground.

415. Are not the spark~ more numorontl on climhlng up tm embankment ?-The idea. is in that case it is from the funnel, hut 1 do not see how t!u:y cnn come out of tho ash pan going up nn embankment.

41ft As to opening to get a. tir:nght, you say tlnt Is uot done golng up a bnnk ?~No. I find the engine steams better going np the bank.

417. Whut is the reo.son thoy Htiek 11p going up the hrmk ?-Se>metimes it i$ caused by n.n engine being overloaded~ and other tirnea by the tiro gottiug thiek and getting low in steam;: some coal steama leaving a clean fire, and other tills the box with dirt, which 1nakes it more dlffienlt.

418. That eage-[po£nting)-has to be eleaned ont 7~Yei:!. "'When deaning out the ash pan you clean it with a. hose.

419. That is at the option of the dl'iver whetherJhe_uses it or not ?-It turns up with the damper. I bBve 1101 been drlTing with one like that.

The witness withdrew.

John Mitchell, examined. 420. JJy tM Oltairmr.m.- What are you ?-Engine~drivor, stationed at Prince's-brhlge1 running

through on the Great Southern lino through to Port Albert. I have been driving between sixteen and seventeen years.

42l. By M-r. Graves.-As to that ash cage, of which wn have a. mode1) what is the object?-To prevent cinders from falling through the firo bars ou to the line.

422. Is that any detriment directly or indirectly to the engine working ?-It is detrimental to the engine if you havo bad slack fuoJ, because it drops through the burs, and that cage gets full up and prevents tbe draugbt.

423. Then if it is not fnll it is even slightly detrimentn.l1-Yes. 424. Is that permanently fixed to iL, m· eau any driver movo it so thf\t he eau run without it?

Yes, he can lift lt and keep it on. It ionuder his controL He is '>npposed to keep it there in the summer months.

425, Is ther~ any benefit to a driver who has n certificate in being tbo man who will do the most work on the least fuel ?-No. They bring out the consmnptlo11 .'lhect quarterly, aud each mu.u is placed on this sheet according to the amount of fuel and oil he nses.

426. Suppo . .:;:ing that you drive and go a. certain number of miles, a.ml use 20 tons of cool, is the man. who goes the same distance and uses 18 tons of coal enppoE!~d to he a better driver ?-It is only for the mn.tter of accounts, because there are great differellces in the engine':!. I might with one engine run lOO miles on 5 cwt. less coal than with his engine, dragging the same load ..

427. Then it depends on the engine ?--Yes, and the driver a] 50, Some tldvers might work an engine a little heavier than others.

428. Do you know of your OWll knowledge that any fires have been cased by the cinders dropping down on the line ?-1 have never known of fires being caused outside the railway fences, bnt I have witueaaed fires being caused from the asb pau or the fire inside the railway fence, not the slcopers alone, but the gras!!.

429. On the Great Southern liue there are always fires during the summer?.--Yes. 430. I suppcse, lru~t year, the fires ciLher by the railways or other sources improved the value of the

land htmdreds of thonaanda of pounds ?-Yes. 431. So they are not so prutieular as on the Great Northern lino about the fires; they rather like

them 1-Yes. 4_32. Can yo11 suggest any way hy w-hich this damage may be Jeasened ?-I can only suggest that

the railway line in~:~ide of the fences be kept much cleaner than it" is at present. 433. That moo.us extra expense 1-Ye~. 43 11. How many men are there engaged ?-Three men iu each gang on the Southern line, and they

have about 7 miles of railway. 435. What do you mean by clean ?-I would not ta.ke the stumps into consideration so much as

the nnden·growth, the scrub, and grass. 436. You think that the fires would be less. frequent if the Ra-ilway Department expended money

on keeping down undergrowth 7-Y cs. 437. By "'"'4-fr. Bowser.-ls that a8h cage fitted on to all the ougines ?-No, not all; it might be

fitted on to one~third of the engines they have in use. 438. Is it a. recent innovation ?-About two yeau old. 439. I suppose it is designed to make a fnrtber check?-Yes. 440. Has it been fqund, in your experience, an effective check ?-UnJouhtedly, it is a more ~ffeetive

cbeck. 441. Why bas it not boon extended to the other engines ?-I cannot sa.y. 442. You mentioned that you would sav(;i coal on oue engine and on anotuer nm. $11ppose you had

three engines oi the Y type, all of the same patrc;:n and driven by the ::mme man, would they all steam

J<>hn Mitehell, 22nd August, 1900. 22

alike ?--No. With one engine you might have no trouble to gat along at all, and with the other engine be struggling the whole way. It might ha the dtffercmce in the construction, or thG engine might be out of order, the pistoncl or valves migbt ~10 blowing through; many things might cause it.

-443. ls it tnw that enJZines have humours; ifyon had three mnv engines they would be all different in the stemming power ?-I cannot say tlw . .t.

444. You think, from your experience, that the use of ash caa'es might be well extenJeU?-Yes, I think so. o

445. By tlu; Chairman.-Do yo11 think that engines are Hke watches, in two of the same make there might he a groat difference?-Yes, a great difference- ; one may turn ont a. gonJ one n.nJ the of.her a duffer~ though they both look the :o;n.me.

446. By Afr. Bowser.-,Vhu.t improvement wont([ you suggest in t.he system of burnin~ off?Spen.kiug f.Jr the line I am on, I should suggest that n gnng of men be sent ; there is scrub and undergrowth thero 3 and 4 feet bigli.

447. From t.tw stumps ?-:No, the undergrowth from the !!crnb cut down when the line was constructed ; it. is always growing upJ and that rcqitircs to bo ent down every ye~r ; it is impos:;iblo for three men to keep the line in proper order for 7 miles, nud keep that scrub <~nt down.

448. By the Chai1"1nan.~·-Havc you ever known case::; in which fires were alleged t.o have origiiUlted from tho locom~1tive yon were in charge of ?-No. '

449. Have you had any experience at all as to fires of that dei;crlption ?-No; I havo often reported fires ; aeconling to the regulu.tions1 if we see n. fire on the line, or omsiLlc1 within a rea~onabie distn.nce, we are snpposeJ to roport it, and cnll the attention of the permanent~way men to it.

450. You know of cases of firci:l C!1used within the Hue from sparks from the fire box?-Yes. 451. Not from the furmel ?-No. 462. In tbat case it ignited the grass ?-Yes. 453. Have you tried any of thosn otber aeresters ?-Yes, I used Thornton's, nnd fonud it 1\Ct very

well. I tried tha.t on the Great Southern line ; I 'vas: running with it for three or four months io the summer time,

454. "\Vc:re any fires ca.nsed through it ?-~o. 4;)5. Were there fewer spu.rks emitted Lhan from the departmental arrester ?-Yes. 456. Ditl it interfel'e with the steamiug power of the engine ?-I di1l not find it so. 457. Your experience of it wus sn.ti!:\\bctory ?-Yes. I put in a report to the Dcpn.rtmont at tbe

time to that effect. i that was about six years ago. 458. Do you tbink TUornton~s was os goo1l as tho departmental ?--I think it. wns superior. 459. By J1fr. Graves.-In what way is it superior ~o the dPpa.rtmeutal?-F;n- one teason 1 the spark

arrester is gelf-cleansing ; it is a chain spark arrester, a.tLached round the fnunel, and the whole time the engine is running it shn.kei:J like small chain mail, the spark camwt. ~et. through.

460. Doos it ?top the power of the engiHe ir1 any way ?-I did not find it .so. attached to wa.s a good steaming cngiuc, one of the hes~. I never had any di!ilculty in a team.

461. The shaking kept it clear of dirt ?-Yes.

The ono I had it a.ny wny with the

46~. And the .spark went through that chain mt\.il and tllJ shaking kept it clean ; that is the whole invention?-Ye:s ; it wns one of the old R class ongiue, 443.

463. Would thnt be a more Uitftcult class to work thnu Y's ?-~o; it could Oe attn.ched to any engine.

464. \Vha.t portion of tlte cngiue was it att~1.chctl to ?-[T!te witness slwwed.]-'l'he draught has t.o pass through it; 1 tried it with wood, o.nd with the use of coal yon coulU give full sttmm with a fair load on going up a bank of 1 in 50, and you wonld hardly recognise a spark froni the funnel.

T'h.e witness tcithdreu.

Jamos Kcck, examined. 465. By t~ Cltairm..a-n.-Wha.t are you ?-An engine-driver. 466. What line are you st;ltionell on ?~·-Runniog betw('eH Bendigo anU 1tielbourne. I have been on

that line, off nml on, seventeen y('ars. I have ahw Lecn on other lines. 467. Have you knnwn any fires caused, or nHe~ed to he ennsed. by nn engine you were in charge

of?-Yes, on on6 occasion only; that was on the Hoathcote line; there were reportl5 obtained; I do not thiuk there was ally departmental inquiry, '

468. Dhl Lhe land-owner complniu and claim damt\gcs ?-Uo pnt in a claim for ,5 acres of gmss being consumed.

469. WM nny tlnmo.gc allowed ?-Not that 1 am n.warc or. 470. Yottarc not aware whether it W<\.S pl'oveJ that the engine had caused the damngc?~Thcy

came to the couclnsion that the fire was not. Cftusctl ))y the engino. 471. Do you think it is: possiLle for a. fire to orig-lnate from the fire hox. a ~park to he blown across

to the gra.s~~: outside the t'mwcs und ig111tcd ?-~o, t,ecn.use if the coal ea me out of the fire box it would be forced in tbc d1rection you are rnnniu:;;, tha.t is along the lino, not at !.he Bide; out of the funnel it could blow sideways. 1 do not thiuk with the spark arrcst.:;r we have now, if it is in good twder, t.lw.t a fire could be cansed by a, ~;park from the funnel; they nro very stril'.t a~ to keeping them in good order M BemHgo ; it id posBible a fire might originato from the fire box.

472. Ha.ve you had any experience as to nny of the othor spurk arresters ?-Yes. I hl\ve tried two other than the departmental; I flo uot know the namos, but tlrey were both fa.ilnrcs.

473. By .~..'tf1". B!Jwser.-Do yon think that fired might ile cnusellauU pnt out before you came back and you know nothit1g of Lhe:n !-~It l\~ould !Je possible. A fire might occnr after we pussed and be extinguish ell hcfore wo came back and wo not know anything about it.

474. You tune heard of nnly olle complaint ?-Ordy ono since I have ln:;eu drivin~. 475. Is your engine fitted with n.n ash cagc!-No; thoy arc not generally ntlopted. 47G. Have you eve!' Lricll an engine with one?- Y' c,<. I thi11k tht:y stop con,t from getting out n.ml

are elfeclive. When you examine them after you run a certaln distu..nce you find cinders in tbcm, but that is not to say they were a.light when they got in.

23

477. Live coals do fnll in them ?-Yes.

Jumes K!Klk, 22nd August., 19(10.

4i8. In the ongine you have at present the live coals drop on to the permanent way ?----They could. 479. They tlo ?-I have not eeen; I have seen coal drop on to the pt;rm:uwnt way and jnrnp about,

Lut it has ,always occurred in the direction we are running; it does not ~:eatter. 4130. Woultl there be long grass growing a.t the time it would fnll out ?-It is nJways l'urnt off in

the summer time, hut shoulJ the coal cscupc there i;:; aJwn.yd danger, On the llcndigo line they hut·u off the grass before it gets too dry.

481, Then with the present appliances tbero i!s always an element of do.nger both from the fuuncl li.IHl from tile ash pan ?--From the a~n pan it is p1·obable t.be ash conltl get away wit.hout that crate.

4t:i2. In your experience tlo any large eiutlcrs get~ up throngh that applinncc into the fnnnel ?-No, not with t.he spark nrrester; ;,;honltl t.hey ef!eapc, you ace them only 6 or 7 feet from the funnel, antl then they go out. I have never seen them reach rhe grouutl with tlw.t e<pu.rk an ester.

483. By the Olw:i1•mat~.-Ditl ycu get. stuck up during the coal strike tln·ough using woo:l ?-No, I have never stoppetl on a locomotive yet.

4t;4. JJy ._tfr. Kenued.IJ.-Do I nnder:>Lami you to say in your experience that coals practicn.liy from th"e titne they cease to n.HCCiltl an: dcn.J ?-Yes, ;lF soon n.s a EJHL!'k leases the fu11nel, and tbe 11pward progress is stopped, it beglus to wayer; mul riw ~park h; dead in~tamiy.

4~5., By ... +Jr. Bow-'<er.-You think the tlungcr is g-real,\'r from dlC ash pan tl1an tho funuel ?--Yea. -!80. You think that would be entirely prevented by hadng th~-tt crate ?~It would be :m additional

preventive, but timt is under tho control of the Jriver:5; they can keep it. up or dowu as they like. 487. \Vould they ncod to remove it to get tl1e Jt·n.ught ?-I think uot. An unungerncnt like tlmt

would soon get dirty, anJ choked through the dirt. ttnd gTcnsc thrown on it. 488. Taking one of those on rhe express train u.nd with good coal, \YOuld they need to dean it

between Melbourne anU lleudigo ?-No, I do not think they woulU; th{.)y woulJ have to tip it up at the station wheu they wen: sttuuling.

489, That is n simple operation?-Yes.

The witness withdrew.

EdwarU Fitzgibbon, examined. 490, By tlte Cl1,airman..- \Yhat u.re yon ?-Engine .. drivcr, for about si-xteeu ycnrti ; I am stationed

now at Dennlla, running on the Syduoy cxpre~~ from 13£:nalla to ~:tclhonrne. 491. Have you been long oH thnt Hue ?w-All my t.imo sine<.l- I went into the service; I was in

Melbonme on the suhnrhan lines for about three yen.rs. 492. Have you known of any fi1 eo alleged to have originMerl from the engine while yen were

in charge?-Yes, ouce, between Violet 1'own and Euroa. 493. Was much damage done ?~-About. t.luce~qutlrtcri! of an acre burut. 494. 'Vo.s n.ny claim ma.Ue on thn Department for damages ?-Yes. 495. Wae there an inquiry into it ?-Not that I am aware of. 496. Did the .Department refue;e to recognise tho claim ?-No) thcro \Vas only the usual reporting

between myself n-nJ the officerR of the Department. 497. Did you report that in yom opinion the engine had not can sed the fire?- Yes. 498. \Vhat is your opiuion of the preset:t arrestet·, do you think it is etfectlve ?-I thiuk it is a

good ono. · 499. Do you think tha.t nny dangerous sparks c.-:.n be emitted by an cngi.uc fitted. with this arrester? -I think not.

500. Do you think there is tlanger from the liYe embers from the ash box ?-I think it is possible thero mu.y bo.

601. Carried by the wind to gm ss outsiJe the line ~·-Not outside the fence ; I do not thiuk tlu\t possible; they may he carried to tho grass within the :fencep;.

-Yes. 602. You think there is more danger of fires orij!:inating from the ash box thau from the funnel?

503. Have you had any experience of any other arrester?-~ o. 504, By .D:fr. Graves.- Was it the fttc on my property you r-eferred to1 :Fn.ithfuH'a Creek station?-Yea. 50t). 'When wu::1 it?-Three or four yeurs ago. 506. It was before the incline 1\'~ cm dowu ?-Yes. 507. lJy fl/1•, Sangster.-You say it is possible for live embers from the ash pan to fire the grass

within the fences, auJ not outsiJe ?~Yes. 508. \Vby could not they go ontside if Lhe wind ctm carry them from between the mils. and fire the

IJl'ass inside the feuce; is it ltot pos!$iblc for !iw wiml to curry them. outside ?-Ifthe engine is going slowly the ember stops wl11:rc it cscapcfl., and going down H. bank, tbo tmin ~oes 80 fur>.t tLe emher cnnnot get from between the wheels> sn.y, 40 mile:> an hour; it wculd not have u chance to get off the track.

.509. By tM Cl1ttirman.-Hnve you noticed grass between the rails ?-·Ye3, not lately ; they keep the lines very clean uow 10 what (bey os:ed to.

<'HO. Y on were driving other engines before you drove the expres.e 1-Yes. 511. Do you think the engine on the cxpreal" train is more Hke-ly to c.anse fire than Lhe others?-

No, I think nor. • 512. By }~J-r. Graves.-Have you un nsh cage ?-They are not plu<!cJ on the express trains yet. I

do not know whether they nre troing to bu. 513. By Jfr. Bowse?'.-,Vonld not tt fire that <'aught jn t.he miiway rescrye extend to the grass

ontshle ?-It migbt, it would dopenJ on the win(L 514. If a strong winU wure blowing the coals fur fr01n the ash pan1 wouhl not they he like!y to be

blown on to the reserve fl.t. the side of the line ?·--They might. 515. If you lwd that n;sh cage, ,]o you d1ink it wonld be more effective t.han the present a-;h pn.u?

-It would prcveut rhe nshcs dropping on to the track. I do not think it \YoulJ interfere with tbe Uranght if it were keiJt thoroughly cleau.

The witness witl;drew.

24

James Hodgkinson, examined. 516. By the Chairman.--Whnt are you ?-An engine-driver. 617. How long have you been engaged in tho.t ?-Nearly 30 years; all the time on tho Victorlatl

railways ; I am stationed now at Prince's·hridgc at prosent ; I fill tbe dutivs of a. foreman . .318. Have you had experience of most of tho Jinos of the colony ?-Yes, the North-East, Great

Southern, and Bondigo. 519. Have any fires been alleged as caused by the engines yon were in charge of?-No, 520. Were no complaints put in ?-No. 521. Do you know of any eaee where a llre started beside the line after your train passed that

you saw when you carne back ?-Ou the North-J.~astem, I remember, in the summer it was a eommon occurrence for Sres to spring up beside the line1 and a common occun·ence to see a swagman cum ping beside the line.

522. You councct t.hose two circumstances together?- Yes. 523. It ·was also a common occurrence to see an eugine running pnst ?-Yes . .524. The engine yon were 1n charge of was nJw;t~·s fittod with :1 gridiron nrrest.or ?-Tllere have

been various descriptions. The first spark <trrcHtPr 1 remember wafl about 2.5 years ago; thttt was a complete arrester; it ca-ught ail the spttrks, not one could possibly cHcapo; tbat is not the one in use now. It was a enge adjusted in the spark hox; we canght them there, not one <·scaped.

52:5. Dhl it haye any prejudicial effect on tbe steaming of the t:mgine ?-Yeg, we had to cut, n hole in the cage autllct them escape; we con!d not get tht• engine bo.ck iuto the st.n.ble till they were let out; lhey were nll dead hcfotc they '\Yere let out. It wtts a u~eless affair us to the running of t.he train; it Wa3

condemned like a good many more; I do not thiuk they ga.ve that a name; I think it was about the first that wa.s ever tried.

526. Wa~ tba.t before the one that is in ns:e now was aUoptctl ?-Yes, I think it was the :first experiment tried in the Department..

527. :Mr. W oodroffe said the first had a def1ector at the top of the funnel?-Yea, something on the American p1~nciple; aU of those proved to have their drawback, •

528. 'Vas nll the apparatus inside the funnel ?-~o, it was simply a cage adjnsted ovel' the blast. 529. What was the next you bad cxperieooc of?-The grlJ.iron that is iu use now is the one I have

had most experience wiih. The others that have come into the 8heds we have had a certain amount of knowledge of.

530. Ditl you conduct any tests yonrsel£ of any of tho80 others ?-~o . .531. You cannot speak from experience of those ?~No. 532, Do you think, admitting for the sake of argnment that an engine mn,y start fires, tbat they

would be more likely to originate from the funnol or the fire box ?-I do not think there is much danger of sparks or ashes from the fire hox.

533. You heard .Mr. Mitchell state that on the Great Southern line fires were caused within the fences by embers or sparks from the :fire box t~Of course, if the grass is allowed to grow within the. raHs embers do full out, but the construction of tl1e ash pan ia with a Iip, aod the draught as you run has 8

tendency to keep ashes back till they die out, hut any one watching a t1·ain tmvelling along the line can see that any fire fa.lHng out of the ash pan would generally follow the engine aud follow the train; it will not leave the train on either side owing to tbe suction from the train~ anti if c•ven it got behind the hlE<t vehicle you ca.n see by papers, or anything like that, that the express train wilt gather them up nnd carry them a.long; so embers cannot get away till the fire is practically knocked out of them.

534. Do you think fires- are mort~ likely to occur from the funr1el tha11 the fire box 'l-As .far as fires occurring~ I suppose thoro ba.s been such a thing) Lut ] think the proportion of fires tbat occur from the sparks is very small in propmtion to the ela.ims that are sent in.

535. Do you think :fires are more likely tu originate through sparks from the funnel than through sparks from the fire box ?-More likely from the funnel.

536. lJy J.lfr. Gavan Duffy.-Some emhers would he too heavy to be sucked along?-They generally follo~. As they strike tbe ground between the sleepers they generally bounce, and once they start bouncing the current of the train keep-3 them bouncing and carries them along with it i you can watch them for yards nnd yards.

537 . .AJ'O not the heavier ones loft behiml ?-I do not think it makes much difference1 because the draught is very heavy under the train wben rnnning.

538. Is it a common practice to open the fire box going up a pinch '!-In working the damper you can work it eithm· in going up a hank or going along a iln.t; the great.est difficulty in keeping steam up ia .a.Jongflat country against heavy winrls; climbing banks is oosy in proportion lo flat country.

<139. Wo have large: exper[once of trains not going up a hank ?__.That is quite possible, because the loa.d of a locomotive is airuost the mn.ximum~ a fine weurher load.

540. t;nppose the driver is overweighted, and comes to a hank, and has to make a special effort to got up, could he do anyt,hing dangerous to an engine in tho way of opening t.he J.amper m· fire ?-No; you can open everything wide open. In climUing Lanks or pulling trains, as 11- rule, englnemeo always prepare to have a good supply o£ everything in gooJ order to rmL

541. Suppose a case where they wore not quite prepared, would they tben open t11e fire box and cause the dauger ?-No1 they could not, because they have not the sumo Jrnught. They do not nse tbe same st-eam as they do along the flats, the hlast is so slow ; there is almost a spv.ce between each exhaust, whereas along a flat it is one steady flow of exhaust, and the rate yon are travelling at gi vcs you so much incn:ut.sed pressure of air .from tbe force of prf'ssure underneath, whereas you lose that on the banks. If an engine-driver runs short of stcam on a bank, which may be t.hrough inexperience of tho fireman, they g.at ij:le idea that they must have something enormous to go up a bank, nod as a re~ult they get so much coal in tbe lJoX tbat. they do not know what to do with it, and it is nota fire r:uitable for gcnerntiug steam. Instead of light aml hright1 as it should Le 1 they bn.ve it full of block coal, and bave uot tho force draught uudernenth to burn it. Natmally n stiff pressure is required to its full extent to kcop the lou.tl going, and, the fire is not sufficient to koop it up. The steam reduees in pressure, and the water must he kept up therofore the train comes to a standstill.

25 ··--'· 22n.d A~ lWil.

~4.2. The general impression is *hat the engine-driver, in a diffieulty of that eort, throws open the fire box 7-No; it is generally the fault of putting on too much fire; he has then to wait and burn the fire up by pntting on the force draught that you ha"Ve from your boiler.

543. The impres~;ion is that at those banks a larger display of fireworks ia seen ?-Simply because the exhaust from the cylinder is much greater; the Uriver openB the exhausts so .much more than running along the fiats, therefore the blast ftom the top of the chamber is so much heavier tha.t, it causes a more irregular blast from the surface of the fire.

544. Then there is more danger from eparks at the bank ?-Yes, from the funnel, not from the fire box.

546 . .By tM Cha.i1-man..-ls the fire box door ever opened under such cireum:~tan~ee to improve the draught 1-Tho higher ym1 raise the damper the more the draught, nud the faster you are rnnningt the highet· the damper a.nd the greater the foroo draught under the :fires.

546. Would not there be greater liability of live embers falling out under those circnmstances 1-Tbe more the dmught going on te the ash pan, the greater the pressure on tbe lip, and that keep8 tha embers ba..ck, forcing them back _; tho greater draught going in underneath, the less liability of the embers to get past, hec.:n1sc M thf"y come dow-n 11ear the Jip of the ash pan the forced dr:n,oght going in drives them ha.ek, curl6 t,hem over a~ain until, nfter doing a journey of JOO miles, you might hswe hair a barrow load of Mhes in yonr pan when you come to the termimu!, nll dend nwi thoroughly extinguished, You have uotieed that they nll carry the lip in the front; ihe ashes fall into that hole, and along the edge of the lip, and the force draught eomes ln. The dmught is so great that at u. lligh rate of speed, with a head wind, it requirea a good !Strong pull to raise your damper, to force it against the current ; therefore, that strong current passing over the edge of the lip, the embers cannot get out uf1less they pass that foreed draught.

547. By M.,., Bow.rer.-Assuming all the enginca to have one .spark arrester, would one engine give :more sparks than another 1-Yes; there are no two engines alike on the railways. The spark arrester may be the same, but the working of the engine may he different, though they may be engines eonstructed by the same oontrn.et and out of the same firm.

548~ They would give a dUforont experience with the same spark e.rreater ?-Yes, every engine has its own peculiarities.

549. Would it he a very gl'ellt variation 7-No, not very great; it would be reported, and they would rectify defects when tl1ey were brought under notice by the men rnnning the engines.

550. Then a good spark arrester mtgbt still he defective if the engine were not equal to ita work?The same spark arrester may he.ve in one cn.se hn.lf tho numher of eparka and double t.he number in another, and yet be doing the same amount of work.

ll5l. You mentioned that the etnbers falling from the aeh pan bounced, but do not you think that the swirl whieh kept them witl1in the linos under the cuniages while the tra-in was passing would be similarly B1rong enough whe11 the gm"·'·d'e vnn hnd passed to swirl them out to the side of the Hne ?I have never kuown them reavc the truck; I have wo.tched them. I remember one inatanee where quite a !Shovelful of fire dro-pped while. running, through the burning of the fire barE, nnd :it allowed a lot of good fire to fall through. The cm hers th<tt faH ~enerally are the refuse; the fire is above the embers, but w ben the two fire hars burnt off tt brought down the live fire with it. I watched the Bffect in that case, aud 1 do not suppose there was a. particle of 1t left more than 6 feet away from the train-you could see the reflection of it underneath the tntiu while you were running, hut 1 have never know11 them to leave the train or travel away from thfl track .

.552. Would notlt vary with a hot wind coming across the trnin f-It would vary according to the rate of speed. If you were going slowly with fit strong cross-wind it might have a.n effect, bnt I do not know tllat any injurious results would follow.

5.53. JJy M.,., Graves.-! understand your experience is that very few fires are caused on the rail~ ways at all by t.he enginea 7-As far a& I know.

554. It is possible that swa.gmcn along the line have o-R-used fires ?-I a:rn sure of it. 555. I think you drove on the Great Southern line ?-Yes, I opened that line. 556. You have seen fires constantly on that line 1-I saw the heavlel!lt flre th0 other aid& of

Foster. 557, You know the stoop bank coming up th& Hcddle Range?-Y as. 558. The dried undergrowth grows qnite close to the carriages ?-Yes, and it growa Yety quickly. 559. How do you think those fires occurred 7-The whole country appeared to be on fire. 560. Have you any recollection of the fire being confined along the side of the railway there?-No. 561. Yon thlnk the fires that came close to you when driving were not created on the railway but

came across to it?-I cannot say. 562. You know of no case where the fire was confined alm1g the side of the r~ilway 1-N o . .563 . .By ]1[.,., Kennedy.-Have you had nny Uepartmanta-l tests as «> the cindefs or coal escaping

from the ash pau ?-No. Of eouse, the better quBlity of ooal enpplied to the engines the less danger there ie of embers or sparks .

.5-64-. \Vhen n- train is leaving slowly near a station nud a strong cross-wind blows, it. takes the cinders out on to- the side of the line at tba c.rosalng ?-That ia posaiblo ; there would be nothing to prevent them going with the wind~

565, Is it a nsns.I thing for :fire bars to shift in the tire box and let out an undne proportion of cinders?-~ot shifting ; they tlo sometimes horn the ends off the.m ; eug.inemen genemlly watch for things of that sort, because it causes trouble for them, and they take the precaution to examine them M the sheds when the fires are laid, and they are then put in order ; but. sometimeoS there is no telling the cauaa. The :fire will get iu between the lm.rs nnd burn the ends off, and then there ie nothing to keop tho bar from dropping.

566. In stoking, have yon fonnd the possibility of moving the bars, or eo ultering them in their position, as to canee .n.n uudne proportion of cinders to go throngh ?-The grid is so adjnated that the bars are made to give a clearnncc between each bar. Ench hu.r c::~rries its own lug, nnd they nre so constructed that when the full tmmber is put into tho box tho box is full; tho tugs are close to eeeh other, and th~t gives the regulation quarter of an inch between the b&r,

26

567. Has your experience shown you that the life of even new fire bars is very abort, that you find them bent and two adhering together, instead of being the proper size ?-Such a thin;;r can be dono in one ahift ; the whole set of bars can he destroyed. I have known such an occurrence on;;: locomotive.

tJ68. Do you use that cinder cage ?-They are fitting thD~e to engines as they go down to the New~ port shops for repairs ; I believe the whole of the main line engines are sent out with those grids.

569. Do you consider that an improvement ?-1 think it is a great improvement in the regulation of the draught in itself, because in nmning round curves on long lines you vary in the current. Sometimes the wind is direct ahead and sometimes across, and with the wind all bluwing from the same direction, if you regulate your draught from the rlnmpe1' for a m·oss~wind you want a great d(~al more damper thau wich a head~wind, and with those -variations of curve, you have a variation in the :fire with those cra.t&a. I think the wind is regulated through hirving to pasB through those smnll holes; and thG saving of ashes falling on the line is another advantage.

570. By 1lfr. Graves.-Y on said the engjnes were examined-suppose you start as you hu.ve done in the morning at seven nnd at five o'clock get t.o Port Albert, and you hand over the engiae to tlle cleaner, ha-ve you to examine the engine yomself ?-Tl1e cleaner aL Port Alhort flimply clean8~ the driver is re~pon· sible u.ll the time for the engine till he gets hack; there is a she•l day, The nm to Port Alhert takes twelve hours, aml the run back twelv13 hours; in ortler to give the driver :1. rest day, they give him a shed day ; you go in the shed, and do n.ll the nccessltry work to your own engine, inspect the re-fittiug to e.ee e-verything is in good order heforo you go away the next morning. Thut is the rule wilh tho main line men, and if the men cannot do it themselves, there are other responsible men who do the work.

571. So that if there is anything wrong with the spark arrester or tho bars it is your duty on shed day to ae-o that it is all right ?-Yes. This gridiron spark n.rrester has oue good quality. It is the case with all wen on the railways; anything that is adopted must he made self~actiug, unhreakn.hlc, and not requiring :my atteutiou, hecause the eugineman has enough to do on the rond to attend to the compulsory things. With this spark arrester, if you do not givo it a brush, and keep its face free fr01n soot, the fowcr sparks eau get through, the narrower the spn.cos gett and the harder it is for you to get steam-you can allow it to close slightly-thereforo you keep it elean for your own safely, and if you do not clean it, you have no sparks at all, anti have to anE<wer for nut getting along weH enough iu your steaming.

572. B,lf Mr. Sangst~r.-Yon sny your regulation bars are close up; Jo you take the bar ont with any claas of coal ?-The bars can be taken out.

573. Is there any class of coal usml on the 'Victorian :railways through \vhteh you require to take the bar o11t ?-Yes ; the engines dmt arc bumiug this light ciass of coal are supposed to have a broader lug to keep the bttrB further a par!. than the ones burning Newcastle coal. rrhe engines are not supposed to be ruuning with the spaoos between the baN! ; the lugs are supposed to he made suitable for the eool the men have to hurn~

574. JJy M'!". Gm.·an Dujfy.-Is that class of coal more dangerous than the ordinary elasl! for causing Dres ?-The lighter the coal the greater the danger I think.

Tie """"""' ~.

Mr. Gavan Duffy here took the Chair.

Pn.trick Minogue, examined. 575. JJy the Clwirman.-What are you ?-.An engine-tlriver in the Railway Department. I run

over all the liues, principally the South-Eastern-the Great Southern; we genera.Hy run to Nyora on that line~ goods trains.

576. Have you known fires to be eaused on your line ?-Yes) on one occasion I knew n. fire to occur in a truck of firewood as I was coming from Heyfield i we were burning wood; it was M the time of the coal strike, and coming to Tramlgon 1 noticed a fire on one of the trucks, and I think it must have come from the engine; that is the only instance I know of fire coming from a. locomotive; I am not fmre in tba.t ca.se, bnt it was my opinion; we were Lurning wood on the eugiue. I hnve known of no oase:j where "\Ye have nsed the 01·dinary eoaL

577. Have you seen fires alongside the line ?-Yes. 578. Ih.ve yon not known how they were causetl ?-No. 579. Assuming that fires arc eaused by the engine, would you think it more likely they were caused

by Aparks coming through the funnel or t.he fite box ?-Through the funnol if they occur at all, because a parks or embers coming from the ash pan, as a rule, drop into the 6 feet between the railf:l 1 and, as a l'ule, between the raUa is very clean.

680. Assuming that _there were dry grass or auy inflammatory ma.tter on tl1e track, a fire might be easily caused ?-Yes.

581. There would be enough cinders coming through to cause 1t firo in that way?-Yes. 582. You heard the evidence of the last witness as to the difference in steaming along a fiat and up

a rise; do you agree with what he said ?-Yes, to a great extent. 591. You think if tho danger of sparks getting out does occur it is less likely on a. rise t.ha.n a flat?

- YeB, from the a.t~h pan, hut tbe danger from the funnel, if there is any, js the sparks will come through more going up a hill because of the great dnmght; the liability is less through the Mh pao, because you sre travelling at a lower rate of speed.

584. A tra.in stowing (lown iuto a ata.tlon, or out with a cross~''idnd then the cinders out of the ash pan might fall outside the track; bnve you had experienee of that ?-No, I think it would be hanliy posl:!ible for thorn to fall outside the rnils ; they might, hut in my opinion lt is rat,her far-fetched.

585. I suppo~:.e, from your p<l.Sition on the engine, yon could not fuHy seo what became of the sparks once the etigiw:.: passed '?~If you arc looking for thrm you wouJd, but in the ordinary cours,e of thing!; you would uot sec them at all ; yon could 8tand on the side of the engine and look nt thorn if you wtshed to rnake n.n experiment.

586. You 13nmetimes do try experiments with the barB? ~No ; we kuow what }hey are without trying any experiments.

587. Suppooe you had bad coal, would uot you take out a bar ?-No.

27 Paklck Minogue, £2nd August, 19\XI,

.588, Have you never Uone it ?-'Yo. The only way with baJ coal is to wait at tho station and clean your fire .

.589. Hnve you hud any experience of arresters be:;iJes tho ono in use by the Depurtment ?-··-Yes, two otbere. I do not know tho names of them; that wonld be about 1892-3; I know· one wa$ no good M

alL I wns traYeHlng with it and had to gtop half~a~do7.en times on the way to Wootlend. The euginet a Y, ha.d a Lellfnnne( and t1Je spark arrester was placet! on that funnel; it was n. close mesh, a line wire, too elose to allow a spark to escape. It wonld cMch sparks, bnt it ca,nght everything olse, hut the engine would not genomte steam euough to dru.w the train. I stopped at St. Albnns for about 25 minutes; I was losing wnter; the water was lenving my boiler: t.ho decrease of wa.t.er means tho decrease of power.

590. Did yon try that on more than one tl'ip ?-Two trips; I sent in n report on it. I think that would be in NO\·ember or December, 1893. I did mention about the defective spark arrester, because I got late to Woodend and hue eorning home, and I put it down to this defective spark arrebter, the '"'ay it interfered with the engiuo Meaming. I was fl. couple ot· thtec bours late.

691. '¥hat was the other spark arrester ?-I was firing ou that wiLl1 Rya.u, a witness to~dn.y. I made only one trip to Sunbnry. I do uot know the lJatlJI'C of thnt. , .

592. By Mr. Sm~,qsteT.-'\\'hat spttrk arrester hu.d you when the truek ennght fire ?-I'he preRent double-grid dcpu.rl.mental spark arreHter. They take one of tho~;o grids out in winter time. It is very difl:lcult to steam the engine with this double Oti.e, l1ecause the mesh of the wires prevents any decent draught getting to the coal.-[The witness subseque~ll(1J sent the fotlowirtg memnrandum with refl!ttrtce to hi1 answer to litis question:-] ·

VICTORIA~ RAILWAYS.-LOCO. BRANCH.

Memo. for C.M.E., Spencer-street. Subjeet.-Spark Arresters.

North Melbourne Station, 26th September, 1900. SIR,-Re truck taking fire coming from Hey£eld. I tlo not recollect now whether the spark Arrea~r was _a aiugle

gridiron or a double one, or if it was a grid1ron at all. Iu fact, I ca.nnot call to mind what kind of arrester wa::~ m nse 11.t tho time. M this incident oceurrod about ten or eleven years ago, therefore I wish to correct the evidence given before the CommiSf;lion on thi"' point.

I am, youi'S obediently, P, Mrsoou:E, Driver.

27th September, 1000.-The C. M. Engineer.-Forwa.rded.-J. 'f. Hall, Looo. Foreman, North Melbourne.

593. By the Clurirman.-When you put on the second gritlln summer, wlmt differem·e JooH it make? -It means you have double the resisting power against any sparks that might try to come out. You may hum a Uttle more coal. We take the same load, but we very often have to stop at slatiou~, and wait to :fiU the boiler with water, and ha'"e another ,go,

594. You wouJd not be as late n.s wit-h i:hat other one you tried ?-No, 595. Even with the double grid you are late ?-Som.3times. The other witnesses have said that

engines will steam differently. One engine might steatn with this douhle grid very dully, and take one out and the engine will steam well.

596. l!Jj M'!'. Graves.-Have you ever heeu late with that donl!le grH, when that was your reason for being late?-Yos, I think so. I cauuot call to mind any pnnicular ease.

597. Have von aseigned that as the reason for being late, the double grid of tbo !!park arrester?No, I cannot remeffiUerany case.

-598. You !!ay it does cause d~lay, that under cqnal circumstances with the double grid you might be delayed by tlwt cause?-Ycs. On goods trains there are a good many opportunities to keep the grid clean, say, BmarJford. They stop nt every ~tatiou and do sbuutiug. You know you aro in JLfficnlties with the spark arrester; it is dirty, antl the first thing you clean it, o.nd it will hold good for anothor 35 miles. The uext opportunity you clean it agaiu. 1 have known cases going from Bacchus Ma.r~h to Bttllau, where they had difficulties; that is a very hE'nvy hill. Before th:~t l4 or 15 miles is completed the spark arrester is dirty, and you have a lot of trouble with the double one, or with the single one if it gots dirty i the double is more likely to get dirty dwa the .single.

599. JJy M.,.. Sangster.- 'Vhat class of eoal is the most likely to make the grid dirty, the ~ew~ castlo, Outtrim, or Coul Creek ?-The Coal Creek would Hll it up quickest, heeauso it is the lightest, and so much more would stick on this gridiron. That. is my inJi•d(lual oplnion, without making a.et11a.l tests.

600. By the Chairm-an.-Do the fire bars often Luru through?-Very seldom; I h:wc had them only once ot• twice.

601. If it did oceur, the live coa.J might fiy n.Lont on lhc. track ?~Yes. 602. By .. "'fr. Saugster.-Supposiug you Lad coni inclined to clinker, nml cowing wlt.lt ail much of a

loaJ: a!! your engine could take, and fi~ring n bill the fireman put in nu extra draught, is there 110t a likelihood of that stuff goiug Into the ash pan ? -Yes, if it p;ot down on to the ha.rs and you ra-ked. them.

603, Then would not there t.e a good tlcal of those embera going out of the ash pan if it was prcUy full ?-Yes, there would be a danger o£ it gettinf? out.

604. You tlo not think it. won1d leave the n~ils: ?-.. -No; I am very strong on that; I do uot think it would get. heyond the rails,

605, JJy _,_l:f'f'. Graves.-Vll1a.t is the distance of the drop from the pan to the :mdaee of the soH?A foot.

606. _HIJ A-fr. Wheeler.-You have tried only two of the new spark n.rrestCt'l:l ?-Yes. 607. Ha.\e you seen moRt of the new iuY<mtions that are at the Railway Department ?-I have soon

some of them. 608, Coultl you give us an opinion as to those you have seen ; are they likely to Le rti:l good ns tbe

gridiron you have in use now ?-No. 609. Hnve you seeu any yet equal io what you are n~ing now ?-:r?\o. 610. Yon consider that is the hest spark arrester you eau ~et?-It is the best I have seen. 611. Havo you seen any in use in the othe;r colonies ?-~ot prnctieally ; I have &n idea. of w!mt

they use~ but have not seen them used.

2R

612. You do not know of your own knowledge that they have anything better tb.&n onrs ?-No. 613, I suppose a.n engine steams Letter with one grid out?- Yes. 6l4. But It is safer when the two &re in?-Yes, as fu.r as the sp&rka are concerned. 615. You said you had ne\"et noticed fires take place from the nsh pan; you know they open at- the

ends and let the ashes out ; is there no danger at that time of the fire flying out when the engine ia trs.velHng at a. good speed?-Yes+ there is a Ja.nger of the fire dropping out. I ha.ve l'!!oen sleepers on fire, and do not know any other way they -could have got on fire except that.

616. lJy ll•• Oh<>irnum.-You have never tried nny actual testa except those two 1-No. 617. JJy }}fr. Whuier.-You are satisfied that the two you tried would be of no uee ?-Y os. 618. You do not, know who were the inventors ?~No; I did not have much of a practical trial of

one ; we only went to Woodend, and could not get enough heat with the wood., because of the brick arch in the engine. They t.ook that out. but I did not run the tra.in the next nightt eo I cannot say the efioot when the engine would be working heavily on a heavy grade; tbat is tho time when there is the ohanee of epRrka throngh the funnel.

619. By M'l"". Sa.ngster.-\Vas the inventor on the engine with you at the time you had the test of the bell~mouthed funnel witi, the small mesh in the atTester ?~I we.a not testing ; I simply ha.d the engine giyen me to run~ The next man who took tbe engine wu going to Seymour, and he went only to Essendon ; he said he would not go without another engine ; l1c did not want to !!pond all his lifetime on the road, so they took the thing out the next day ; it eaught the sparks right enough, but you could not get up any steam, '

"'*-~· Adjourn< d.

b · 1900. -victoria. b.eport froji 'l'bb select committee ol! ... 'villiam lcy,...

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