[Wednesday, 11 August, 1976] 74

Zealand Animal Protection Act also makesabandonment of any animal a seriousoffence.

The RSPCA has Provided me with acopy of a communication forwarded to Itby the Acting Assistant Police Commis-sioner (Mr H. L. Taylor) in May, 1975.in it appears the following opinion fromSenior Inspector W. Connolly of the policelaw education office:

Mr Calvert's proposal for an addi-tional subsection to section 4 (1),covering abandonment of animalswould be a valuable addition to theWestern Australian Cruelty to AnimalsAct. Provision is made in section 21Bof the Dog Act whereby It is an of-fence for any Person to abandon adog. However, no similar provisionexists where other animals are aban-doned.

I am sure members will agree that theproposed amendment is humane, logical,and necessary to remove the present In-adequacy in the Act. I commend the Hillto the House.

Debate adjourned, on motion by theHion. N. E. Baxter (Minister for Health).

BILLS (2): RECEIPT ANDFIRST READING

1. Building Societies Bill.Bill received from the Assembly; and,

on motion by the Hon. G. C.MacKinnon (Minister for Educa-tion), read a first time.

2. Road Traffic Act Amendment Bill(No. 2).

Bill received from the Assembly; and,on motion by the Hon. N. E. Baxter(Minister for Health), read a firsttime.

ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE:SPECIAL

THE HON. N. MeNEILL (Lower West-Minister for Justice) [5.05 p.m.]: I move-

That the House at its rising adjournuntil Tuesday, the 17th August.

Question put and passed.

House adjourned at 5.06 p.mn.

1.

QUESTIONS (39): ON NOTICE

RAILWAYSRockingham-Garden Island Line

Mr BARNETT, to the Minister forTransport:(1) Is he aware that work has begun

an the proposed railway linethrough Rockingham to GardenIsland?

(2) Will he please provide me with amap detailing work to be carriedout?

(3)

Mr(1)

(2)

2.

ifietiuiaftwe Aourmh1tjWednesday, the 11th August. 1976

The SPEAKER (Mr Hutchinson) tookthe Chair at 4.30 p.m., and read prayers.

(a) What is the estimated dateof completion;

(b) what is the estimated cost ofconstruction:,

(c) what is the number of peoplewho will be employed on theproject;

(d) will construction workersfrom Rockingham be em-ployed on the project;

(e) is it expected that a passengerservice will operate on theline to and from Fremnantle;

Cf) what gauge will the line be;(g) how much revenue does the

department expect to derivefrom the first two years ofoperation?

O'CONNOR replied:No. Work has not begun on thisrailway.and C3) The construction of theMangles Bay Railway line throughRock ingham and terminating inthe vicinity of the existing cause-way to Garden Island Is depend-ent on plans for development ofnew harbour facilities in the area.The question of extension of thisrailway over the causeway toGarden island is a matter for theCommonwealth Government. TheState is not aware of any suchproposal.The railway is a long term pro-posal and no detailed planningother than preliminary locationof the route-which has not yetbeen final ised-has been carriedout. Therefore a map cannot beprovided and question 3(a) to (g)cannot be answered at this stage.

BALDIVIS SCHOOLUpgrading

Mr BARNETT, to the Minister repre-senting the Minister for Education:

Subsequent to the recent deputa-tion from Baldivis Primary Schoolrelative to the upgrading of theschool, will the Minister pleaseconfirm the results of that depu-tation and the department's plansfor the school?

1747

[ASSEMBLY]

Mr GRAYDEN replied:,A replacement school is sched-uled for Baldivis Primary schoolfrom a future fund allocation.

3. PRE-SCHOOL CENTRES AND CHILDCARE CLINICS

Establishment GrantMr BARNETT, to the Minister repre-senting the Minister for Education:(1) Is it a fact that the department

grant for the establishment of apre-school and a child care clinicis $4 000?

(2) Is It a fact that this amount wasworked out when $4 000 repre-sented approximately half of theamount needed to erect a pre-school?

(3) If the answer is "Yes" would theMinister please update the $4 000grant to an amount more amen-able to today's costs?

Mr GRAYDEN replied:(1) The grant of $4 000 is for a pre-

school centre only. (The amountof the grant is $6 000 foi theregion north of the 20' parallel.)

(2) No.(3) Not applicable.

4. ROCKINGHAM SCHOOLResource Centre and

ImprovementsMr BARNETT, to the Minister repre-senting the Minister for Education:(1) Further to the Minister's reply to

my question 23 of Wednesday,12th November, 1975, has thespecial task force named com-pleted its inquiry?

(2) If "Yes" will the Minister Informme when the work on Rocking-ham Primary School will goahead?

(3) If the work is not to go ahead asyet, will the Minister please advisewhat ha8 happened to the moneythat was ranted for this specificpurpose?

Mr GRAYDEN replied:(1) The special task force Is continu-

ing to review building costs.(2) It is anticipated that the proposed

works will go out to tender shortly.This news was conveyed to thesecretary of the parents and citi-zens' association, Mrs R. Barrltt,by the Hon. Nell McNeill, IvLL.C.,on Friday, 23rd July, at Rocking-ham.

(3) Not applicable.

5. POST SECONDARY EDUCATIONCOMMISSION

Personnel and StaffMr T. D). EVANS, to the Ministerrepresenting the Minister for Educa-tion:(1) Have the personnel and staff

required to form and operate theWestern Australian Post-Secon-dary Education Commission beenappointed?

(2) If "No" when is it expected thatthe Commission will be fullyoperative?

Mr ORAYDEN replied:(1) No. The position of chairman has

been advertised extensively in allStates, with a closing date of the11th August, 1976. Considerationis being given to the appointmentof members of the commission.

(2) The date when the commissionwill be fully operative will dependon the availability of the personappointed as chairman.

6. EASTERN GIOLDFIELDS HIGHSCHOOLStage IV

Mr T. D. EVANS, to the Ministerrepresenting the Minister for Educa-tion:

Further to the Minister's answerto question 46 on 7th April, 1975,concerning the commencement ofstage IV at Eastern GolddieldsSenior High School, now that theloan fund situation for 1976-77Is determined, will he please advisewhen a commencement will bemade and the likely completiondate?

Mr GRAYIDEN replied:The loan fund allocations for1976-77 have not yet been finallydetermined.

7. SOUTHi KALGOORLIE SCHOOLRepairs, and Resource Centre

Mr T. D. EVANS. to the Ministerrepresenting the Minister for Educa-tion:(1) Further to question 5 of 11th May,

1976, is the Minister now able tostate the programme for repairand renovation at South Kalgoor-lie Primary School?

(2) When is it expected that a newresource centre will be constructedat this school?

Mr GRAYDEN replied:(1) The Public Works Department

has advised that the Proposedrepair and renovation works willcommence in the near future.

(Wednesday, 11 August. 1976] 1749

(2) It is anticipated that the library/resource centre will be completedtowards the end of the first term,1977.

8. PUBLIC SERVICEGeraldton: Officers

Mr CARR, to the Premier:(1) How many State Public Service

officers are there in Oeraldton witha classification of A-1-5 or higher?

(2) (a) Who are they:(b) what positions do they hold;

and(c) what are their classifications?

(3) How many State Public Serviceofficers are there in Geraldton whoreceive a salary of $20 157 perannumn or higher?

(4) (a) Who are they;(b) what positions do they hold;

and(c) what are their salaries?

Sir CHARLES COURT replied:(1) to (4) There is only one officer

employed at Geraldton under theprovisions of the Public ServiceAct, who receives a salary in ex-cess of $20 157 per annum, andtherefore higher than that apply-ing to a classification of A-1-5.This officer is the Harbour Master,Geraldton, who is classified assuch under the "Marine PilotsEtc. Award, 1975" at a salary of$20 433 per annum.

9. REGIONAL ADMINISTRATORGeraldton: Responsibilities

Mr CARR, to the Minister Co-ordinat-Ing Economic and Regional Develop-ment:(1) Will he detail what "clearly

defined delegated responsibilitiesfor on-the-spot decision makingconcerning local matters" will beavailable to the Geraldton regionaladministrator, as Promised initem 13 of his Policy and Per-formance document?

(2) Will he Please relate this promiseto the initial official list of dutieswhich he made available on 5thAugust and which appears to showonly functions of liaison andreport?

Sir CHARLES COURT replied:(1) and (2) The member is apparently

Placing too narrow an interpre-tation on the wording in the ini-tial list of duties promulgated asa basis for calling applications forthe appointment of a regionaladministrator.

Also-(a) He needs to read and appre-

ciate the significance of thewhole of the section of the"Policy and Performance"document covered by items 9to 16. and have regard for theresponsibilities of all depart-mental representatives in theregion working in close co-operation with the regionaladministrator and the re-gional centre.

(b) He should re-examine theanswers given to earlier ques-tions asked by him on thissubject and which refer to thelogical development of dutiesand staff.

10. TRONADO MACHINEOffers of Purchase

Mr J. T. TONKIN, to the Ministerrepresenting the Minister for Health:(1) How many separate approaches

have been made to the Govern-ment directed towards the pur-chase of the Tronado cancermachine?

(2) Was a communication receivedfrom Calgary, Alberta, Canadafrom a person purporting to beacting on behalf of a group ofdoctors who were desirous ofobtaining the Tronado?

(3) Was this communication of thenature of an open-ended offer topurchase the Tronado?

(4) Was this communication receivedbefore the report of the TronadoCase Evaluation Committee waspublished?

(5) Subsequent to the publication ofthe report of that committee didDr M. N. Levant of the Depart-ment of Diagnostic Radiology,Holy Cross Hospital, Calgary.Alberta, Canada have an inter-view with the Minister for Healthin connection with a desire of agroup of doctors in Calgary toacquire the Tronado?

(6) During the interview did DrLevant indicate his belief in theefficacy of ultra high frequencyradiowaves in the treatment ofcancer?

Mr RIDGE replied:(1) One.(2) Yes.(3) The communication was in the

nature of an inquiry whether themachine was for sale.

(4) No.(5) Yes.(8) Dr Levant Indicated his belief that

there was laboratory support forthe efficiency of ultra high

1750 ASSEMBLY]

frequency radio-waves in thetreatment of cancer. He outlineddetails of the research Programmewhich his group proposed toundertake to confirn, if Possible.this belle!.

11. BUILDING BLOCKSLancelin

Mr BERTRAM, to the Minister forLands:(1) How many blocks of land were

sold at Lancelin township on lothJune, 1987?

(2) How many of those blocks thensold have been forfeited?

(3) How many of those blocks notforfeited have complied rigidlywith the conditions as to improve-menits thereon?

(4) How many of the blocks sold havestructures thereon not in com-pliance with the by-laws of theShire of Gingin?

(5) How many of the blocks sold havebeen forfeited at a time when sub-stantial improvements had beenmade thereon?

(8) H-ow many of the blocks sold arenow in the process of being for-feited notwithstanding that sub-stantial improvements have beenmade thereon?

Mr RIDGE replied:(1) 18.(2) 1.(3) 18.(4) 2.(5) None.(8) None.

12. WANDARRA SCHOOLReplacement

Mr BERTRAM, to the Minister repre-senting the Minister for Education:

What is the progress position asto the replacement of the schoolbuildings at the Wandarra Pri-mary School?

Mr GRAYDEN replied:It is anticipated that the prepara-tion of the tender documents willbe commnenced in the near future.

13. PEDESTRIAN OVERWAYKalgoorlie Street-Scarborough Beach

RoadMr BERTRAM, to the Minister forTransport:

When is the actual constructionwork expected to commence onthe Pedestrian overpass at/orabout the junction of KalgoorlieStreet and Scarborough BeachRoad, Mount Hawthorn?

Mr O'CONNOR replied:The contractor is about to coma-mence steel work fabrication offsite. Work on site should beginabout the middle of October, 1978.

14. PEDESTRIAN OVERWAYWanneroo Road-Laniley Street

Mr BERTRAM, to the Minister forTransport:

When is the actual constructionwork expected to commence on thepedestrian overpass at or aboutthe intersection of Wanneroo Roadand Lawley Street, muart Hill?

Mr O'CONNOR replied:The contractor is about to com-mence steel work fabrication offsite. Work on site should beginearly in November, 1976.

15.

16.

GOODSCost of Packaging and

Advertising

Mr BERTRAM, to the Premier:What action has he taken so farto contain inflation and give reliefto the people by reducing theheavy costs of packaging andadvertising of goods which inmany cases can only be describedas being necessaries?

Sir CHARLES COURT replied:If the member can provide mrewith specific details of itemswhere he has evidence that "theheavy costs of packaging and ad-vertising of goods which in manycases can only be described asbeing necessaries" is inflating costsunnecessarily, I shall be pleasedto arrange for an investigation.

LIQUOR ACTPayments under Section 168

Mr BERTRAM, to the Minister repre-senting the Minister for Justice:

How much in each of thethree Years has been paidunder each of(a) section 168 (1) (a); and

lastout

(b) section 168 (1) (b),of the Liquor Act, 1970?

Mr O'NEIL replied:No funds have been providedunder these provisions in the lastthree years.

1750

[Wednesday, 11 August, 1976] 1751

17. SELF-SERVICE PETROLSTATIONS

NumberMr BERTRAM, to the Minister forLabour and Industry:

How many self-service petrolstations are now operating inWestern Australia, and where arethey?

Mr GRAYDEN replied:There are two outlets providingfacilities for self-service petrolsales to motorists-one on thecorner of Walter Road and GrandPromenade, Morley, and the otherin Canning Highway, CanningBridge.

18. GOLDMININlGState Batteries: Restriction

Mr MAY, to the Minister for Mines:.(1) In view of the Federal Govern-

ment's decision to abolish taxexemption for the goldminingindustry will he advise If the StateGovernment has any plans torestrict the activities of Statebatteries throughout the State?

(2) In the event of the State Govern-ment giving consideration to thispossibility, would he give an assur-ance that every endeavour will bemade to ensure there is no disrup-tion to this facility which providessuch an excellent service to boththe small and large goldminingParticipants?

(3) With a view to assisting the smallprospector would the Governmentgive consideration to reducing thecurrent State battery charges?

Mr MENSAROS replied:(1) and (2) The State Government

has no such plans.(3) No; see my reply to part (4) of

question 4 on the 3rd August,1976.

19. AJ.WEST ALUMINA PROJECTCommencement

Mr MAY, to the Premier:Referring to question 17 datedThursday, 5th August, 1978, willhe advise if an announcementconcerning the Aiwest aluminaproject can be expected within thenext two months?

Sir CHARLES COURT replied:In replying to question 17 of the5th August, 1976, 1 stated that,in view of discussions which areproceeding, it would be prematureto comment on the likely com-mencement of the project.This is still the Position.

20. ELECTRICITY SUPPLJIESIncreased Charges: Revenue

Mr MAY, to the Minister for Fuel andEnergy:(1) Resulting from the increases in

electricity charges in August, 1974,and January, 1975, will he adviseif the additional increasedrevenue obtained from theseincreases as at January, 1976, wasapproximately $29 million?

(2) Using the same formula what wasthe total amount of money paidinto consolidated revenue as aresult of the 3 per cent levy?

Mr(1)(2)

21.

22.

MENSAROS replied:Yes.$870 000.

HEALTHFamily Planning Association

Mr DAVIES, to the Minister repre-senting the Minister for Health:

What action will the Governmenttake to ensure that the FamilyPlanning Association does nothave to limit its activities to thoseconducted at present?

Mr RIDGE replied:The Family Planning Associationis funded mainly by a health pro-gramme grant from the Common-wealth and until the Common-wealth makes clear its intentionunder the health programmegrant scheme, no decision can bemade regarding future activitiesof the Family Planning Associa-tion.

MANUFACTURING MILKProduction Controls

Mr H. D. EVANS, to the Minister forAgriculture:(1) Will Production controls be placed

on manufacturing milk in WesternAustralia?

(2) If "Yes"-(a) what level of reduction on

present production levelswould be required;

(b) will quotas for the productionof manufacturing milk beallocated to dairymen in thisState; and

(c) what bases and principleswould be used for the alloca-tion of any such quotas?

Mr OLD replied:(1) The question of production con-

trols for manufacturing milk willbe discussed in the general con-text of the recommendations from

1752 [ASSEMBLY]

the Industries Assistance Com-mission to the CommonwealthGovernment on future marketingof dairy products.

(2) Not applicable.

23. RURAL HOUSING AUTHORITYFinance

Mr H. D. EVANS, to the Minister forHousing:(1) How much finance has been made

available to the Rural HousingAuthority for disbursement toapplicants?

(2) How much will the Rural HousingAuthority receive In the 1976-71financial year to make availableto applicants?

(3) (a) How many applications forrural housing have beenreceived by the Rural HousingAuthority;

(b) of these, how many have beensuccessful:

(c) what has been the averagelevel of loan granted by theauthority?

Mr Old (for Mr P. V. JONES) replied:.(1) to (3) The Rural Housing (Assist-

ance) Act, 1976, has not yet beenproclaimed and financial arrange-ments for the 1976-77 financialyear have not been finalised.

24. NEW LAND FARMERSIndustries Assistance CommissionMr H. D. EVANS, to the Minister forAgriculture:(1.) Has any action been taken to

implement the recommendationsof the Industries Assistance Com-mission, contained in its reporton new land farmers?

(2) If "Yes" will he detail whatactions have been taken by theGovernment?

(3) If "No" to (1), is it intended totake any action in connection withthe recommendations referred to?

Mr OLD replied:(1) to (3) The IAC new land refer-

ence arose from the terminationof the Phosphate FertilizerBounty at the end of 1974 andconsidered assistance to compen-sate for the loss of the bounty.To a degree the IAC recommenda-tions have been superseded bybounty reinstatement. However,the report by the IAC demon-strated that some new land farm-ers needed financial assistance onbetter than commercial terms forsuccess. The State Governmentwill assist in every possible wayand representations have been

made to the Commonwealth Goy-ernnment to clarify new landfarmers' eligibility for assistance.The new Rural ReconstructionAuthority agreement is to be fin-alised by 31st December. 1976.

25. NATIONAL PARKS BOARDExpenditure

Mr H. D. EVANS, to the Minister forConservation and the Environment:

What was the total amountexpended by the National ParksBoard an-(a) operating costs;(b) capital and other expenditure,in each of the years from 1972-73to 1975-76?

Mr Old (for Mr P. V. JONES) replied:(a) 1972-73, $364 219.

1973-74, $477 060.1974-75, $502 214.1975-75, $826 308.

(b) 1972-73, $141 678.1973-74, $113 571.1974-75, $209 496.1975-76, $193100.

26. UNEMPLOYMENTRegistrations

Mr H. D. EVANS, to the Minister forLabour and Industry:,

What was the number of unem-ployed persons registered In eachof the following districts In July ofeach of the years 1972 to 1976inclusive-

Albany;Bunbury;Esperarice;Kalgoorlie;Kwlnana;Manjinup;Merredin;Northam;Port Hedland:Metropolitan?

Mr ORAYDEN replied:",Commonwealth monthly Reviewof the Employment Situation"shows the following:

tJNEMPLOYED-ORIGINALDATA

End July1972 1973 1974 1975 1976

Albmny -..Runbu rylEsperanceKalgoorlie

Kwi nanaManjimuPMerredinNorthamPort IledlandMetropoliit

427629

.. 68.. 327

(Medina)7038757

297268

9 652

385630

57276

33165582286

513906112463

6591 146

169560

522 515 749 1 05767 97 276 25187 65 87 149

337 303 373 427397 575 1 168 1 553

4 893 6372 11897 14 910

[Wednesday. 11 August, 1976] 75

27. POLICE AND ROAD TRAFFICAUTHORITY

RecruitsMr T. H. JONES, to the Minister forPolice:

Further to my question 19 ofWednesday, 4th August last, wouldhe please advise of the figures forthe police force and Road TrafficAuthority separately?

Mr O'CONNOR replied:The Road Traffic Authority cameinto being on the 1st June, 1975,with an actual strength of 389police. Since then the strengthhas been increased by a further128 men.Replacements are supplied fromthe ranks of the general force.

28. RAILWAYSCollie Wagon Repair Depot

Mr T. H. JONES, to the Minister forTransport:

Will he please advise when it isanticipated that the wagon repairdepot at Collie will be shifted tothe locomotive round house?

Mr O'CONNOR replied:Approximately mid-September.1976.

29. HOUSINGCollie: Pro gramnme

Mr T. H. JONES, to the Minister forHousing:

Will he please advise of the StateHousing Commission building Pro-gramme for Collie?

Mr Old (for Mr P. V. JONES) replied:1976-77 Building Programme:

State Housing, nil;Aboriginal Housing, 2 units pro-

posed.As already advised, six units forAboriginals are already underconstruction and due for comple-tion in November, 1976.Also under construction are sixState Housing pensioner units,which are currently 80 per centcomplete.

30. RAILWAYSCollie Station and Goods Shed

Mr T. H. JONES, to the Minister forTransport:

When is it anticipated that theCollie railway station and theCollie goods shed will be shifted tothe west Collie area?

(GO,

Mr O'CONNOR replied:Westrall is presently examiningrationalisation of the Collie rail-way facilities involving removal ofthe station and goods shed to theWest Collie area, but the benefitsof the shift to Westrall have notyet been established.Subject to Justification beingestablished, the priority of thework will have to be considered incomparison with other capitalworks.It appears doubtful at this stagethat the project will be com-menced before the 1978-79 finan-cial year at the earliest.

31. SHEEP AND LAMBSSkins and Freezer Capacity

Mr CRANE, to the Minister for Agri-culture:(1) is there sufficient skin drying

capacity to handle anticipatedsheep and lamb slaughterings dur-ing this flush season?

(2) Have any sheep and/or lamb skinsbeen dumped over the last month,and if so, for what reasons?

(3) What are the factors that havecontributed to the current prob-lem regarding insufficient freezercapacity for slaughtered livestock?

Mr OLD replied:(1) The trade considers it will be able

to handle all skins offered duringthe flush season.The matter is however under con-stant review by a committee whichI recently established to monitorskin drying capacity.

(2) No.(3) mainly shipping delays and a lack

of refrigerated shipping space-aggravated by an abnormal supplysituation for this time of the yearas a consequence of drought con-ditions.There is also port congestion anddelays in unloading refrigeratedcargo, Particularly in the MiddleEast area.

32. CONSUMER PROTECTIONUsed Cars: Backyard Sales

Mr HARMAN, to the Minister for Con-sumer Affairs:(1) Has there been an increase In the

sales of used vehicles outside thelicensed used vehicle area or com-monly called "back yard" sales?

(2) Has he made inquiries to establishthe incidence of such sales?

(3) If so, will he advise the result ofhis inquiries?

1753

1754 ASSEMBLY]

(4) Does he propose any legislativeaction?

Mr GRAYDEN replied:(1) The Commissioner for Consumer

Affairs is of the opinion that therehas been an increase in the inci-dence of "backyard' sales sincethe introduction of the MotorVehicle Dealers Act, 1973.

(2) No inquiry has been held butroutine checks of newspaper ad-vertisements are periodically car-died out by the Bureau of Con-sumer Affairs.

(3) A prosecution is currently pend-ing as a result of Bureau investi-gations. Investigations are cur-rently being carried out in severalother cases of suspected "back-Yard" operators.

(4) No. Section 30(1) of the MotorVehicle Dealers Act Provides fora Denalty of up to $1 000 for oper-ating as an unlicensed motor veh-icle dealer.

MILKAdditional Quotas

Mr BLAIKIE, to the Minister forAgriculture:(1) Has the Dairy Industry Authority

advised dairy farmers who wererecommended for milk quota allo-cation, but not granted, of theirpriority for any future quota allo-cation?

(2) (a) Would he indicate the numberof applicants in each cate-gory; and

(b) categorise number of appli-cants concerned in productionarea?

(3) Since the allocation of 31 milkquotas in 1975. would he detailthe number, if any, of personsadvising the Dairy IndustryAuthority that they would notaccept a milk quota entitlement,and if so, from which allocationof quota?

Mr OLD replied:(1) Yes. Recommended but unsuccess-

ful applicants were placed inthree priority groupings.

(2) (a) Group (1), 16;Group (2), 14;Group (3), 21.

(b)-

North of Runbury ..Bunbury. Busselton,

Marg ret River ..Nannrup. BridgetownManimop, NortheliffeSouth Coast .

Total ..

Cat.. Cct Cole.gory I gory 2 gory 3Nil Nil I

122

16

2

Nil

4

12224

34.

Total

35645

T1

(3) No one has declined a market milkquota.

SEMENLi .cences arnd Imports

Mr BLAIKIE, to the Minister forAgriculture:(1) Have any licences been granted

for-(a) collection of semen;(b) sale of semen,to other than the Artificial Breed-ing Hoard?

(2) If "Yes" would he give details towhom licences approved or pend-ing each category?

(3) Does the Artificial Breeding Boardoperate a semen collection service,and if so. to what extent?

(4) Would be indicate the value andnumber of ampoules of all semenimported into Western Australiafrom-(a) other Australian States;(b) other countries,for use by the Artificial BreedingBoard and private operators?

(5) What is the board policy regard-mng collection and sale of semenwhen requested to apply in West-ern Australia?

Mr OLD replied:(1) (a) Two are pending;

(b) Yes.(2) For collection of semen for sale

or use-Westralian Farmers Co-opera-

tive Ltd; andWestralian A.B. Services.

For storage and sale of semen-Artificial Breeding Board of

W.A., Harvey;Western Breeders, Byford;Busselton Breeders, Busselton;W. Dunlop, Green Range;L. Giglia, North Dandalup-

special licence for one bullonly;

An application from ElderSmith Goldsbrough MortLimited is currently beingconsidered.

(3) Yes. This is a custom collectionservice only, provided on the basisof specific demand for this service.

(4) For the 1975-76 year-(a) 35 291 doses;(b) 78386 doses. (60821 doses

came directly from the U.K.;and the remainder of theU.K. or New Zealand originvia the other States.)

1754

(Wednesday, 11 August. 1976] 1755

Approximate values are: $2.50per dose from other Austra-ian States, and $5.00 Per dosefrom overseas.

(5) Board policy is to provide semenfrom bulls which are consideredto be of superior genetic meritbased on production records.Semen from other bulls is sup-Plied if specifically requested.The Board is prepared to providea custom collection service on de-mand.

35. FARMERSWater Supplies: Cost of

UpgradingMr McPHARLIN, to the Minister forWater Supplies:(1) Is it a fact that, when replace-

ment water lines are being laid toupgrade the service, users arebeing charged $100 to connecttheir properties across a roadway?

(2) AS these farmers have previouslypaid for connections, bow is thischarge justified?

Mr 0 NEIL replied:(1) No charge is made for a connec-

tion which is a replacement forthe only service to a property oris a replacement of the originaldepartmental service.

(2) Any connections paid for byfarmers are provided in accord-aunce with the country areaswater supply by-laws and aresubject to a condition that thenecessary maintenance cost bemet by the consumer.

36. LOCAL GOVERNMENTFuel Tax Exemption

Mr MePHARLIN, to the Minister forTransport:

As many country shire councilsare finding it difficult to meettheir financial commitments, willconsideration be given to recom-mending to the Federal Ministerthat diesel trucks used by shirecouncils be exempt from fuel tax?

Mr O'CONNOR replied:At the present time the onlyexemption provided for under theCommonwealth Government'sFuel Administration Tax Act re-lates to the use of diesel fuelotherwise than in propelling roadvehicles on public roads.As all State Government depart-ments and agencies are liable topay this tax and the attitude ofthe Commonwealth Governmenthas in the past not been favour-able to amending the Act to pro-vide for further exemptions, it is

not considered that any good pur-pose would be achieved by writingto the Federal Minister con-cerned at this time.

37. ROSS MEMORIAL HOSPITALStaff and Opening

Mr DAVIES, to the Minister repre-senting the Minister for Health:(1) Are the staff members engaged

for Ross Memorial Hospital (ques-tion 16, 10th August, 1976) cur-rently undergoing any specialisedtraining?

(2) If so, can the Minister give detailsof the programme?

(3) When is it expected patients willbe admitted to the hospital?

Mr RIDGE replied:(1) Yes.(2) Staff are attending a week's in-

tensive course of lectures anddemonstrations given by seniorofficers of the mental deficiencydivision, Mental Health Services.This will be followed by practicein other existing departmentalhostels accommodating pro-foundly handicapped.

(3) It is expected to admit the firstpatients during the week com-mencing 13th September, 1976.

38. STATE FORESTS, NATIONALPARKS AND RESERVES

Dedication

Mr H. D. EVANS, to the Minister forConservation and the Environment:(1) Does the Government intend to

set aside further areas of Stateforest or national parks or similarclass of reserve?

(2) If "Yes" when is it proposed todedicate such areas, and what isthe location of each area?

Mr Old (for Mr P. V. JONES) replied:(1) and (2) The further recommenda-

tions from the EnvironmentalProtection Authority relating tonational parks and reserves haveyet to be considered.

39. TRANSPORTPensioners: Medical Treatment

Mr DAVIES, to the Premier:(1) What firm arrangements have

been made to enable pensionersusing travel concessions andattending for medical treatmentto have the two hour return con-cession extended?

(2) For what period will the con-cession be extended?

[ASSEMBLY)I

Sir CHARLES COURT replied:(1) Passengers who are required to

attend a frequent hospital ap-pointment may apply to the De-partment of Community Welfarefor a Pensioners' destination Pass.On Presentation of this pass, to-gether with a hospital appoint-ment card, and the 10 or 15 centbus, rail or ferry ticket purchasedwhile travelling to keep a hospi-tal appointment, the pensionermay travel on the homewardjourney on the same day withoutadditional charge, even thoughthe two-hour time limit on theticket has expired.This does not apply In the case of5 cent single trip tickets.

(2) For the remainder of the day ofthe hospital visit.

QUESTION WITHOUT NOTICE

NORTH-WEST SHELF GASExploration Permits

Mr MENSAROS (Minister for Mines):I wish to add something by wayof correction to the reply I gaveto a question asked withoutnotice by the member for Clon-tar! yesterday. His question was--

In connection with the recentannouncement inviting applica-tions for exploration permitsoff the north-west shelf, will headvise whether the provisionsof the Act requiring the desig-nated authority to obtain theapproval of the Federal Gov-ernment in relation to its areasof responsibility were adheredto in this and previous in-stances?

My reply to the question was"Yes". I was answering it in whatI believed to be the spirit of thequestion.However, when I read the ques-tion I discovered there was noprovision in the Petroleum (Sub-merged Lands) Act for the desig-nated authority to ask for the ap-proval of the Commonwealth; butit has been the custom to informthe Commonwealth, and that hasbeen done.Usually the Commonwealth in-dicates its agreement, exceptduring the term of office of theWhitlam Government when no in-dication of agreement was forth-coming; therefore during thattime and during the administra-tion of the member for Clontartthe action to advertise permitareas lapsed. There were two oc-casions relating to the last threewords in the question when

during my administration of theMines portfolio but still duringthe time of the Whitlam Govern-ment the Commonwealth was in-formed, and despite the fact thatits agreement was not indicatedthe Permits were advertised.

BILLS (Z): THIRD READING1. Building Societies Bill.

Bill read a third time, on motion bySir Charles Court (Premier), andtransmitted to the Council.

2. Road Traffic Act Amendment Bill(No. 2).

Bill read a third time, on motion byMr O'Connor (Minister for Traffic).and transmitted to the Council.

TRONADO MACHINEReturn to Use: Motion

MR J. T, TONKIN (Melville) [4.54p.m.]: I mov--

Because there appears to be substan-tial evidence that Tronado treatmenthas been of anti-cancer benefit as wellas of symptomatic benefit to a numberof patients, as claimed by Dr JohnHolt, and because the Tronado CaseEvaluation Committee reported that"conclusive assessment is impossiblewithin the context of a retrospectivestudy such as that which has beenundertaken" and has said, "It con-siders that there is a strong need foran experimental study on the effectsof very high frequency radiation usingthe Tronado machine in solid malig-nant tumours."1

In the opinion of this House, imme-diate action should be taken to havethe Tronado machine, which was pur-chased by the Tonkin Government andwhich has remained unused for a veryconsiderable time, brought back intouse.

Before I proceed to develop my argumentin connection with this matter I1 want torefer to some answers which were givenby the Minister representing the Ministerfor Health. They were given this after-noon in reply to question 10 on notice. Thethird part of my question was--

was this communication of the natureof an open-ended offer to purchasethe Tronado?

The reply of the Minister was-The communication was in the natureof an inquiry whether the machine wasfor sale,

In connection with that I want to say thatI had in my office for 1J hours last weekDr Levant, one of the group of doctors whoare desirous of obtaining the Tronadomachine. He told me most definitely thatan open-ended offer had been made topurchase the machine. I leave the matterthere.

[Wednesday, 11 August, 1978] 1757

The fourth part of my question was-Was this communication receivedbefore the report of the Tronado CaseEvaluation Committee was published?

Dr Levant told me most definitely that theoffer was transmitted by a solicitor, anamesake of mine from Calgary, before thereport was published. I have informationindicating that actually this communica-tion from Calgary was received in theMinister's office on Monday of the sameweek, before the report was published. Thereply of the Minister to the fourth partof my question was "No". I leave thequestions and answers for the time being.

I regret that I may have taken a fairamount of time in developing this argu-ment, but as Disraeli once said, and hewas born In 1804, "Time is precious buttruth is more precious than time." It willtake me considerable time this afternoonto tell the truth about this matter. 'WhatI propose to do is to recite the facts con-cerning the reports and the use of the'Fronado.

A lot has been said that history repeatsitself, and of course it does. Most memberswill be familiar with what happened toLouis Pasteur when he came forward withhis theory about imimunisatlon. The doc-tors wanted to put him in gaol for suggest-Ing such a thing. It is recorded in theEncyclopaedia Britannica in an article onLouis Pasteur that Pasteur's devotion toscientific research was complete. Despitea stroke which partly paralysed him at theage of 46, he worked with considerableIntensity up till his health failed com-pletely.

A masterful debater, Pasteur overcamehis opponents by dramatic and convincingdemonstrations. While believing stronglyin experimental science he also maintainedthat there existed spiritual values thattranscend the scientific approach. It tookLouis Pasteur several years to have hisIdeas on immunisation accepted, as finallythey were. Now, of course, it Is a matterof general adoption.

Joseph Lister had a similar experience.Again I quote from the EncyclopaediaBritannica--

He was successful. In 1867 he pub-lished "On the Antiseptic Principle inthe Practice of Surgery". His methodwas not rapidly adopted, mainly due toopposition to the germ theory. How-ever, despite the controversy, his suc-cesses and his perseverence could notbe Ignored.

Within a few Years, antiseptic sur-gery put an end to "surgical diseases".

It Is well we should keep that in mind be-cause we are going through a similar pro-cess with regard to microwave ultra highfrequency therapy. As I proceed I pro-pose to supply very definite proof of somestatements I will make which contradictvery strongly some reports Issued, andupon which great reliance has been placed.

With regard to the Tronado machineitself, members will know there have beentwo medical reports; one put out by theNational Health and Medical ResearchCouncil, and the other by a committee setup by the present Government, known asthe Tronado Case Evaluation Committee.

In its report the Tronado Case Evalua-tion Committee said It was impossible tocome to a definite conclusion because ofcertain limitations. However, the commit-tee Imposed the limitations upon itself.The members of the committee determinedwhat they would look at and what theywould not look at. So, it is somewhat Idletalk to state in the report that the com-mittee could not come up with any definiteconclusions because of the limitationsunder which it was operating.

The members of the committee did cometo one important conclusion, and that wasthere was no evidence of any harm whichcould come from the use of microwavetherapy from the Tronado machine. I as-sume, without knowing whether or not thiswas a factor in the decision of the boardof the Sir Charles Galrdner Hospital todiscontinue the use of the Tronado mach-ine, that this did have a bearing and theboard took notice of the Possibility thatsome harm could be done. The specialevaluation committee stated there was noevidence of any harm from the use of themachine.

It is as well that we should be familiarwith what the producer of the machine,Guettner, claimed for it. I will make thevery definite statement here and now thathis claims were not exaggerated, and theyhave been substantiated in every way. Ihave with me the papers which were issuedin connection with the application for aPatent, and I will quote from page 1. Thefollowing are Guettner's comments inconnection with the machine-

The invention is concerned with aprocedure and the medical-technicalinstruments for a new cancer therapywhich does not require any surgicaloperation and which, in contrast toother methods of treatment customaryuntil now, is not based on the familiarbiological effects of ionizing rays noron the application of chemical thera-peutic mitoticists, but solely on the factthat malign tumors as well as meta-stases and stray single cancer cells aresubjected to special temporary biophy-sical or, if necessary, biochemical localchanges which cause a completeextinction, or at least a lasting stag-nation, of the disintegration of cells,by being as sparing as possible of thesurrounding normal tissue.

I say most definitely that has been theexperience as can be shown. There is noexaggeration in that statement and noextravagant claims at all. As I proceed Iwill show that the claims have been sub-stantiated.

1758 AMEMhBLY)

Let us look at the salient points. Themachine certainly is concerned with anew cancer therapy. A surgical operationis not required, and it relies solely on thefact that malign tumnours, as well as met-astases and stray single cancer cells aresubjected to temporary biophysical or, Ifnecessary, biochemical local changes whichcause a complete extinction or at least alasting stagnation of the disintegrationof cells by being as sparing as possibleof the surrounding normal tissue. It hasbeen shown in a number of cases--andI will quote authorities--that the Sur-rounding normal tissue is not adverselyaffected by microwave therapy.

In his paper Ouettner further states hispurpose was--

... to introduce with all the neces-sary caution an apparently promisingnew cancer therapy to the scientificexperts, which seems suitable to pro-vide with concrete propositions strongimpulses stimulating the efforts of theworld wide cancer campaign. The in-tention is to provide the practisingphysician with newly developedmedical technical instruments whichare based on familiar, but in theirpractical significance underestimated,biophysical and biochemical effects.

He said further-The ray therapy uses the phenom-

enon that healthy tissue has a dis-tinctly lower sensitivity to ray damagethan diseased tissue with a mnaligncell growth. This difference in thesensitivity to rays is of utmost sig-nificance in the treatment of cancerand is an indispensible presupposi-tion for the therapeutic applicationof rays rich in energy.

Dealing with certain chemical changes,he says--

But quite apart from that, one hasto register serious doubts as to the pos-sibility of universal application of thecancer-multistep-therapy, independ-ent of the location of the tumor inthe organism. For instance, it wouldbe difficult to treat brain tumors Inthis way. The same would probablyapply to many other carcinomas andsarcomas, which defy such methodsof treatment often by their mnere lo-cation. The most Important basicscientific significance of the cancer-multistep-therapy is the discoverythat under certain given presupposi-tions a spontaneous tumor emissioncan be achieved merely throughhyperthermy.

The task at the origin of this in-vention is to develop a new cancertherapy which would not be chargedwith the disadvantages of the variousPrevious methods of treatment; whichwould be universally applicable; whichwould extinguish, or at least stagnatereliably, the growth of malign tumors

as Well as metastases and stray singlecancer cells; which would be promis-ing even at a progressed stage of thedisease without unduly endangeringhealthy tissue and without causing toomuch stress on the heart and the cir-culation or any other organs. Thisnew cancer therapy is to offer definiteprospects of recovery even in thosecases where the malign tumor to betreated is situated in barely accessiblevital organs, so that any surgery wouldleave only a slight chance of survival.

This task Is met in this Inventionthrough the fact that an intensive raytreatment with short waves, ultrashort waves, and micro waves is ap-plied on exactly locatable, pathologi-cally changed tissue areas, or on ex-tensive parts of the diseased humanbody, and In this way such a highdiathermic absorption of ray energyis achieved at every individual seat ofdisease that the increase in tempera-ture caused In tissue already of a highertemperature than the surroundinghealthy cells, leads to irreparabledamage of the cancer cells, but not ofnormal cells . . . malign tumors showa distinct increase in temperature incomparison to the surrounding healthytissue. . . In any case, it is establishedwithout doubt that cancer cells, Incarcinomas as well as sarcomas has ahigher innate temperature thanhealthy cells of the same kind of tis-sue. . . Cancer cells are, however, al-ways much more affected than normalcells.

As I proceed I think I will be able toestablish that what is claimed has beenachieved by those using the microwavetherapy.

Following the purchase of the Tronadomachine and before it had been in opera-tion for very long, as was to be expectedand as occurred in other parts of theworld, opposition started to grow up. par-ticularly among university professors anda lot of people who had never treated can-cer in their lives but who got busy to workup considerable opposition to the machine.

The first criticism of which one had totake very much notice appeared in a letterto The West Australian on the 19th June,1974. The machine was brought here andstarted operating in April, 1974. Thegentleman who wrote this letter was theProfessor of Pathology at the Perth Medi-cal Centre at the University of WesternAustralia. This is what he said in part-

As a medical scientist with almost20 Years' experience in the investiga-tion, diagnosis and teaching of manyfields related to cancer, I believe itnecessary to point out a few factsregarding the new form of cancertherapy now being widely canvassed inthe media.

1758

[Wednesday, 11 August, 1971J 1759

The remarkable thing is that this gentle-man did not know any facts about theTronado machine. One statement of hiswhich I think might be taken as a factappears at the end of his letter, where hesays-

Furthermore, the anecdotal report-ing of single eases of supposed cure isfallacious and misleading

He finishes up by saying-I for one will continue to regard any

claims for its success as specious.So before there was any opportunity forhim to talk to any of the patients and havea look at their case histories he had madeup his mind that if anybody claimed tohave received benefit the claim would bespecious.

That was the start of this business andIt worked up to such a stage that it wasdecided by the Cancer Council here that itshould get a report from the NationalHealth and Medical Research Council inthe east.

At this stage I want to recount anexperience I had with a certain professorwho Is on the Cancer Council. I rang himup and said, "Professor, you do not hesi-tate to use me to get on the radio to Inducepeople to subscribe money to cancer re-search but you will not provide a dollar forresearch into the Tronado machine." Hisimmediate reply was, "It is no good." Iasked, "How do you know it is no good?Why don't you send somebody down to theSir Charles Galrdner Hospital to see whatIs going on and talk to the patients andexamine their case histories?" He said."That is not our business," I asked, "Whosebusiness is it?" He then said to me, "Whydon't you come and talk to the council?"'I said, "I am prepared to do just that."

The following week I addressed a letterto him, in which I referred to his invitationto me to address the Cancer Council andasked him what was the date of its nextmeeting and whether I would be welcome.It took him 13 days to answer my letter,which delay he explained subsequently bysaying he had contracted influenza. Hisletter, when I received it. stated he had notInvited me to address the Cancer Counciland that no good purpose would be servedif I did; but he said he was prepared tohave a talk with me himself, which in duecourse he did.

During the discussion I brought up thecase of Mrs Lynette Abbott. This womanIs known to the Leader of the CountryParty, who is the member for Katanning.She is the wife of the postmaster In Katan-fling. She had a lump in her breast andwent to the local doctor who told her itwas not anything to worry about, so shedid nothing about it. A few months latershe developed a nasty skin rash on herface, neck, and chest, and she went to askin specialist. During the course of hisexamination he said to her, "You ought tohave that lump seen to." She said, "NI have

been to the doctor and he told me it wasnothing to worry about." The specialistsaid, "That is too deep-seated to beordinary lymph gland trouble. Let memake an appointment for you with adoctor."

By a strange coincidence the doctor withwhom he had made the appointment wasthe doctor who told me my first wife hadcancer. When Mrs Abbott went to him hehad a look at the lump and said, "I don'tthink it is anything to worry about butfor your peace of mind I will take thelump out." He performed a biopsy and thelump was found to contain one cancer cell.So Mrs Lynette Abbott had five weeks ofradium treatment.

A few months later she developed alump in the gland under her left armpit.When she visited her local doctor he didnot mess about this time: he sent herstraight back to the doctor who had per-formed the first biopsy. Another biopsywas carried out and through some unex-plained circumstance the report cameback that the lump was benign. MrsAbbott said, "Thank God for that." How-ever, within a fortnight she was Informedby the local doctor that she should visithim and when she did this he told herthat a mistake had been made and thelump was malignant,

She went back to the doctor in Perthand he told her that there was only onething to do; that was, to have a radicalmastectomy. For Your information, MrSpeaker, in Western Australia every yearmore than 1 000 women have a radicalmastectomny for cancer of the breast. Shesaid she was not prepared to have herbreast removed and that she would ratherdie. She wanted to know why she couldnot have more radium treatment but shewas told by the doctor that it would notbe any good. She said, "Well, I am notgoing to have my breast off", so he madearrangements for her to see a radiologist.The radiologist told her the same thing:she should have a radical mastectomy.When I asked him, this radiologist con-firmed the advice he gave Mrs Abbott. Ithen inquired the reason that he gave herthat advice and he said, "It is standardpractice and the safest course to follow."

Mrs Abbott told the radiologist that shewas not going to have her breast removed,and fortunately this was at the time theTronado machine arrived here. Whenasked whether she would like to go onthe machine, she replied that she wouldand she was treated with it. The machinegot rid of the lump under her armpit andshe still has her breast.

Because I had been away for a fewmonths, I rang her up last week to seehow she was. She was as joyful as it ispossible to be and she told me that ateach successive checkup she has been toldshe is free of cancer. Her name had beentaken off the list of applicants for adopted

1760 ASSEMBWLY]

children but it was restored toafter the treatment on themachine and she now has anchild.

the listTronadaadopted

I told the story to a professor from theCancer Council and in addition I told himsomething that I have not already toldthe House and that is, when she had treat-ment on the machine it also destroyed acancerous growth in her right thigh. Shetold me that she had had pain in thethigh for three weeks or so and themachine had got rid of that. When Ifinished telling the professor her story hesaid to me, "She is doomed"; so I said."Is she? Why then was she allowed toadopt the child?" He then said, "Well,she could not have had cancer in the firstplace." I said to him, "Why did thedoctor want to remove her breast?" I alsosaid to him that I would get in touch withthe doctor who had wanted to remove herbreast and I would ask him to send theprofessor a slide taken from the biopsy sothat he could judge for himself whetheror not she had cancer. I did not knowthen that the professor had already madeup his mind and that as soon as he leftmy office he contacted the doctor Con-cerned and told him not to send the slide.I found this out afterwards.

I telephoned the doctor who had wantedto remove Mrs Abbott's breast and askedhim whether he would send the slide tothe professor. The doctor agreed to thisreadily, but a few days later I received aletter from him saying that he had over-looked the fact that he would need to havethe patient's permission to do this, Iwrote immnediately to Mrs Abbott enclosinga copy of the letter from the doctor andI asked for her Permission for the slide tobe forwarded to the Professor. Mrs Abbottreplied to me enclosing a copy of theletter she forwarded to the doctor rantingher permission.

I allowed a few days to pass and thenI telephoned the professor to ask whetherhe had received the slide of the biopsy. Hesaid. "I am sorry, Mr Tonkin, she is notmy patient and I cannot discuss the casewith you." I said to him. "All right, if thatis the way you want to go about it, Imay as well stop wasting my time."

A few days after this incident a younglady journalist came to see me. She wantedto write an article about the Tronadomachine and I told her the story of MrsAbbott and the professor, and his remarks.The journalist Published the story in full.In due course this article was read by theprofessor and he was very Upset. Hiestormed up to Parliament House andmarched up and down the corridor outsidemy office with a copy of the article in hishand. I invited him In to may office andhe said, "This newspaper is full of lies."I said to him, "Sit down there and we willgo through the article paragraph by Para-graph."

I read the first paragraph and I said tohim, "What is the lie in that?" He couldnot find one, so I read the second Para-graph. I said, "What is the lie in that?"He could not find one. Then we came tothe paragraph where it was reported thathe had said the lady was doomed. He said,"I never said that." I said to him, "Pro-fessor, if You never made that remark, whydid I say to You, 'Why did they allow herto adopt the child?' following which yousaid to me, 'She could not have had cancerin the first Place', and this caused me tosay that I would arrange with the doctorto send the slide over to you."

Suddenly the professor said. "Oh I toldthe doctor not to send It." I said, "Is thatthe reason he changed his mind anddecided he had to have permission?" I thensaid to the professor, "That sure enoughshows that you had made up your mindand you just do not want to know." Un-fortunately, Mr Speaker, that seems to bethe attitude of those wvho are opposed tothis machine. If we can show them some-one who has had the treatment and who isnow quite well, they say that person couldnot have had cancer in the first place. Ofcourse, one is then at some difficulty inendeavouring to establish the facts whenthese people are not interested in seeingthe slides relating to the cases.

The report of the National Health andMedical Research Council concluded withthe statement that there was absolutely nobenefit to be derived at all from treatmentby the Tronado machine. Two specificclaims were made in the report, and Ipropose shortly to quote the expert opinionof three doctors of physics who say ineffect that the National Health and Medi-cal Research Council did not know what itwas talking about. In order to link up mycomments, first of all I must quote fromthe report.

At page 21 of the report the first claimsare made concerning the absorption ofultra high frequency energy in humantissue. The report states-

The following statements are madeby Herr Ouettner concerning absorp-tion of U.HF. energy by humantissue:

From Reference (1)-"The irradiation of partially can-cerous tissue with microwavesresults in the absorption of dia-thermic irradiation energy with ahighly selective effect wherebythe energy absorption in healthynormal cells and in cancer cellsis clearly differentiated in thesense that cancer cells reach anabove average temperature, Can-cer cells in diseased organs reacha maximum temperature of58.530 C while the surroundingintact normal cells undergo amuch lesser and still totally harm-less rise in temperature . . . theselective effect derives from the

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[Wednesday, 11 August, 19761 16

fact that tumours and secondarieson account of their much higherlactic acid concentration possessconsiderably more ion-conduct-ivity than normal tissues. Accord-ingly the transmission loss ofmicrowave energy is much higherin cancer cells than in normalcells. Wave transmission losses,however, are physically identicalwith the conversion of irradiatedelectro-rnagnetic oscillation energyinto heat which manifests itselfin an exactly definable localisedrise in temperature."

The report contains a, good deal more onthat aspect, but It Is not necessary forme to repeat it.

I have a report from Dr L. 0. Bowen,'who fortunately happened to be in WesternAustralia on loan for 12 months. DrBowen is a senior lecturer in physics atthe Institute of Technology of New SouthWales. He took it upon himself, withoutany prompting from anybody, to make astudy of the physics in the report. I quotefrom his letter of the 22nd May, 1975, asfollows--

Re: Micro-wave field characteristicsof the Tronado 8101 apparatusA study of the radiation physics of

certain main aspects of the aboveapparatus, has allowed me to make anevaluation of the associated measure-ments and some of the commentsembodied in the report of the NationalHealth and Medical Research Council.It should be noted that my positionin the University of Western Australiais that of a visiting academic staff -member of the N.S.W. Institute ofTechnology, where I am employed asa Senior Lecturer in Physics.

The statements made herein, repre-sent my personal and professionalopinions, and no responsibility can beassumed in this respect either by theUniversity of Western Australia or theNew South Wales Institute of Tech-nology.

The page references quoted hereinrefer to the above mentioned reportunless otherwise stated.

On page 5, paragraph (11), of his report hesays in conclusion-

(ii) a highly effective mechanism fordifferential heating of canceroustissue above the surroundingnormal tissue in the human bodyis a distinct and important possi-bility with microwave Irradiation.

Let us see what he says about this absorp-tion of heat, which the National Healthand Medical Research Council would notaccept. I quote from page 4 as follow--

Absorption of U.H.F. energy bynormal and cancerous tissue (P21, P22,P23)a

A considerable importance has beenattached In the report on the actualmechanism Postulated for achievingdifferential effects in cancerous andnormal tissue.

Two statements made by Guettnerappear on page 21-

I have already read one of them. To con-tinue.

-the first one relating to a differ-ential beating while the second state-ment refers to a coagulation of thecytoplasm of cancer cells,

The first statement is strongly criti-cised In the report while no furtherspecific reference is made to thesecond. In regard to the criticism ofthe first claim by Guettner the reportis largely concerned (P23) with state-ments regarding small differences inattenuation of microwaves to beexpected between normal and cancer-ous tissue.

There appears to be little doubt thathuman tumour tissue has a slightlyhigher conductivity than normal tis-sue found by England (Nature, Sept,1950) and Mallard (Nature, Jan. 1967).However, what is important in postu-lating a differential thermal mechan-ismo, is that an initial higher conduct-ivity should exist in the tumourmaterial relative to the normal tissue.even though the actual difference issmall. Under such circumstances, itappears to be a distant possibilitythat a "thermal runaway" of thetumour material under microwaveIrradiation can occur due to the con-ductivity of the tumour material in-creasing more rapidly with tempera-ture than the surrounding tissue.

Evidence for such a "thermal runa-way" has been shown by Zimmer at al(L.E.E.E. Trans. Vol. M.T.T.-l9 Feb.1971. p238) to occur in animal tunioursenabling differential hypothermia, tobe achieved. There appears to be noreason In Principle why a similareffect cannot be produced in humantissue.

It is extraordinary that no refer-ence was made in any respect to thiswork, by either the physical or medicalscientists of the Committee.

I interpolate here to say It certainly is mostextraordinary that, having taken a certainstand, they had no reference to this par-ticular literature which changed what theywere saying. To continue-

In regard to such a possible effect,it would seem that if an initial arti-ficial increase of conductivity (e.g. theTonado "cocktail") in the tumnour

material could be achieved in someway, an enhancement of the abovemight occur. It should be pointed outalso that if "thermal runaway" doesoccur, Its effectiveness could also

1761

1762 [ASSEMBLY]

establish a potentially dangerous situ-ation as far as the patient isconcerned. However, the importanceof such a possible mechanism cannotbe underestimated in my opinion.

Now, I did not want to accept just oneopinion on that, so I decided to get intouch with a top physicist in WesternAustralia. I supplied Dr J. R. de Laeter.Dean of Applied Science at the WA Insti-tute of Technology, with a copy of whatDr Bowen had said. I should like to quotefrom Dr de Laeter's report. On page 2appears the heading, "Differential HeatingMechanism". Members will notice that herefers to the same authority as did DrBowen. His report states--

The work of Zimmer et al has shownthat differential thermal effects canoccur in tumours in mice for micro-waves of frequency 2.45 and 9.05 GHz. The mechanism of "thermal run-away" is thought to be caused bystanding waves being set up in thetumour. Therefore it is possible thata similar mechanism may occur inhuman beings, although at 433 M Hzthis seems unlikely. However I wouldnot rule out the possibility of this orsome similar mechanism occurring.Obviously more research is needed inthis area.

So, members will see that there are twoscientists--to be precise, physicists--whowill not accept the finding of the NationalHealth and Medical Research Councilwith regard to the differential heatingwhich can occur if heat is applied to mal-ignant and healthy tissue.

On the 14th May this year thereappeared a very interesting article in theJournal of the American Medical Associ .a-tion. My attention was first drawn to thearticle by an item I noticed in the Amer-lean edition of Time. Strangely, it didnot appear in the Australian edition or inthe European edition, which I obtainedwhen I was abroad. However, I have herea photocopy supplied by the United StatesInformation Agency which includes a copyof the Time magazine article and also acopy of the article which appeared in theJournal of the American Medical Associa-tion.

In the Journal of the American MedicalAssociation five doctors practising atBrooklyn Hospital, New York, made a claimrelating to the benefit which had beenobtained by radio frequency therapy intumour eradication. They discussed theresponse in 21 patients. The article statesas follows-

Tumnor blood flow, measured by anIsotope dilation technique, is only 2%to 15% of that of the surroundingtissue.

I think we should ponder on that for amoment to show the very big differencebetween the blood flow in a tumour and Inhealthy tissue. The article states that the

blood flow in a tumnour is only from 2 percent to 15 per cent of that in healthytissue. It is this factor which is claimedto cause the tumour to rise to a greaterheat than the surrounding tissue. Thearticle continues--

This sluggish circulation differenti-ates cancer from normal tissue andforms the basis for a new therapythat entails the transfer of radiofre-quency (RF) energy for heatingtissues locally. The heated tissue iscooled by the circulation of blood,which carries away the heat. Impairedperfusion, as in cancers, impedes cool-ing. Heating by RE' elevated thetemperatures of animal and humancancers by 5 to 9.5 C above that ofhealthy tissue. The heat eradicatedthe animal cancers without destruc-tion of normal tissue. Radiofre-quency therapy produced tissuenecrosis or substantial regression ofcancer in 21 patients.

Further on it states-The striking anatomical difference

in the vascularity of tumors from thatof normal tissue can be exploited asa basis for the treatment of cancer.

An orderly system of arteries andcollecting veins is laid down in embryo,but tumor tissue arises de novo afterblood vessels and tissue are alreadyin existence.' Therefore, as a tumorgrows, it does not generate an inte-grated ramification of vessels, whichis present in normal tissue. An expand-ing tumor displaces adjacent vessels.Although these vessels may occasion-ally be engulfed by the enlargingtumor, they do not establish an inte-grated system for the rapid entry andegress of blood.' The angiogenesis thattakes Place in tumors merely createscapillaries whose haphazard growthresults in a disorganized and tortuouspathway with a high resistance toflow.

It was this article that I asked the Min-ister representing the Minister for Healthto refer to the Tronado Case EvaluationCommittee; however, the Minister said hedid not propose to do so. I suppose it is acase of, "My mind Is made up; do notblind me with facts." A little further onin the article it states-

We measured the blood flow throughsurgically excised malignant and nor-mal tissue and by the indicator dilu-tion technique, and we tested theeffect of selective heating in an RFfield in animals and humans withmalignant tumors.

The conclusion of these experiments withthe 21 human beings was reported asfollows-

The present investigation demon-strates that human cancers are selec-tively heated by RP radiation, with

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[Wednesday, 11 August, 1971 1763

consequent tissue destruction. Arational basis for therapy is thus sug-gested.

That is quite the opposite from what theNational Health and Medical ResearchCouncil said on this subject.

I do not want to leave that aspect ofthis issue at this Point, because fortun-ately I am armed with plenty of authority.I should now like to quote from a publica-tion which was printed in Britain in 1972and headed, "Investigations on the Possi-bility of a Thermic Tumoer Therapy-abort-Wave Treatment of a TransplantedIsologous Mouse Mammary Carcinoma".The article is written by Kristian Over-gaard and Jens Overgaard of the CancerResearch Institute of the Danish CancerSociety in Denmark. Starting off it says,-

During the past century It hasrepeatedly been claimed that heat mayexert an inhibitory effect on a malig-nant tumnour, or even cure it.

Let us reflect upon that for a momentor two. It says "During the past century".What has been done about it until now?I quote from page 66 of this report-

In recent years, Cavaliere et at andMondovi et a) have reported a numberof cures of human tumours treatedwith local application of heat.

Further down it says--The values reported vary to some

extent, but nevertheless show anacceptable agreement in view of thevariations in the experimental tech-niques in which the ability to "take",the growth of the tissue culture, themitotic index or the staining suscept-ibility are used as criteria for theviability of the tumour tissue.

Heat tolerance is probably somewhathigher in normal tissue than intumour cells.

Now I refera differentHealth andquote-

to heat absorption and againopinion from the NationalMedical Research Council. I

This difference in heat sensitivitywas demonstrated very clearly byChen and Heidelberger [59] in experi-ments on induced malignant cell trans-formation: the higher heat sensitivityseems to be an Integral part of thecharacteristics of the malignantcell ...

Many experiments with heat treat-ment of transplanted tumours suggestthat the Possibility of cure exists, butthe results vary widely because of thetechnical difficulties encountered...

in many experiments, local treat-ment of the tumour with hf. currentshas resulted in permanent cures oftransplanted tuniours without seriousdamage to the surrounding tissue.

Is not that what has been claimed-thatthe microwave treatment would get rid ofmalignancy without damaging surroundingtissue? To continue-

Present Status and Purpose: Severalobservations-both clinical and experi-mental-indicate that a moderateinfluence of heat may inhibit thegrowth of, or completely destroy,malignant tumnour tissue, but althougha considerable number of cures oftransplanted tumnours are on record.we actually know very little about thedose of heat which is necessary toproduce such an effect. Our know-ledge of the histological reactions inheat-treated tissue is very sparse, andthe mechanism of action of the heatapplied is still unclarifled.

So there is further support for the viewthat radio frequency can selectively heattumcour tissue and normal tissue, and thatis something which the National Healthand Medical Research Council would notaccept at all.

I want to return to the report of theNational Health and Medical ResearchCouncil because, as I have already said, itmade another claim. This deals with themeasuring equipment which it used inorder to determine how much heat theTronado machine was capable of giving.Again I have to refer to the reports of thephysicists in order to show what con-clusions they came to in connection with it.I refer to page 1 of Dr Bowen's criticism.It refers to Page 26 of the report of theNational Health and Medical ResearchCouncil and is headed, "Field-measuringequipment used". He said-

The electrical probes described,apparently consisted of inductive loopssupplying a thermistor power metervia a co-axial cable, the latter em-bodying a solid copper outer sheath.No actual probe dimensions are stated,and it is not clear from the report.how the copper sheath was orientedwith respect to the radiating anten-nae of the Tronado treatment head.when the field measurements weremade.

However, due to the geometry ofthe Tronado head, it would be impos-sible to introduce such a probe asdescribed.

We must realise that this man is a doctorof physics and a senior lecturer at theInstitute of Technology of New SouthWales. He does not mess about and say,"It might be this or it might be that".He makes the very definite statement-

...it would be impossible to intro-duce such a probe as described, with-out distorting the field Patterns of theTronado antennae. It is also possiblethat the actual Power radiated bysome antennae could be affected bythe presence of such a probe, since

1764 [ASSEMBLY]

the radiated power is sensitively For the reasons detailed, above thedependent upon the load impedancein such a situation.

No attempt was apparently made tocheck for such a field distortion orany possible alteration of total radi-ated power caused by the measuringprobes used. The figures quoted forthe distribution of radiation intensityin air inside the treatment bead(P28), must therefore in my opinion,be regarded as suspect.

I shall show later that this opinion issupported by Dr de Lacter. To continuewith the letter-

It would seem that some doubtswere held in regard to the electricalmeasurements, as a later attempt(P26) was made to measure the dis-tribution in air inside the treatmentbead, by utilising a thermal techniqueand measuring the temperature riseover a known time of water samples,located at various positions in thetreatment head. Such measurementswould only have validity if the initialrates of heating of the samples weremeasured and the thermal lossesknown at each position. No reliancecan be placed on such measurementsand this was also apparently realised(P26). Such thermal measurementscannot of course be interpreted In anycase in terms of the field polarisation(P20).

When the measuring techniques asdescribed above are applied to thephantom load of saline solution (P25,P27), the measurement situationbecomes even more questionable. Theintroduction of a metal sheath in thevolume of conducting fluid (salinesolution), would almost certainly havecaused a significant field distortion,and if the sheath were actuallyearthed, a major alteration in theactual power radiated by the antennaemay also have occurred.

In this respect, it is significant thatonly relative power measurements arequoted in the report (P28, P29) forPoints immediately inside the phantomload. i.e. at one radial location only.If a probe calibration were madeinside such a phantom load for asingle dipole as claimed (P26, P:27),why were actual field intensities notmeasured at various radial locationsIn the ftronado?

Apart from the questionable natureof the field measurements as statedabove, It must be also remarked on.that the paucity of measurementsboth in regard to the number of loca-tions sampled and the particular fieldcomponents measured gives anextremely vague and inconsistent pic-ture of the supposed field distribution.

conclusions of this particular para-graph, both in regard to actual fielddistribution and field polarisation,must be regarded as unacceptablewithout further investigation.

It is claimed in the report that theantennae of the machine are not elec-trically matched to a patient standing22 cm away, and hence the actual radi-ated power is low. However, thisstatement refers to a test carried outwith a single isolated antenna bymeasuring the power input to theU.H.F. generator. A satisfactory testof the Tronado machine could onlybe made In this respect with allantennae in position and the powerinput to the antennae actually mea-sured on load.

While it may well be correct thatthe Tronado antennae are not matchedto a patient standing in the machine,and there may be good reasons forthis, the tests mentioned above areconsidered to be unsatisfactory in res-pect to a measurement of the totalpower output.

This is further seen in the test con-ducted on the total power dissipatedin the phantom load (P31) by meas-uring the temperature rise in a salinesample over a known time. It isclaimed that the figure of 350 wattsobtained represents the total powerradiated into the load by the machine.

If the average field readings arecalculated from the fields measuredelectrically at the front, back and sidesof a patient (P29, P30) and theappropriate surface areas of the head,neck and abdomen considered, thetotal Power received by a patientshould be about 1200 watts rather thanthe 350 watts mentioned above!

Allowing for the paucity of meas-urements and the consequent difficultyof obtaining average fields from thequoted figures, there neverthelessappears to be a clear inconsistencybetween the electrical and thermalmeasurements. This can also be seenfrom the field values measured im-mediately outside the phantom wherethe average field is about 60 mw/cm'rather than the alleged 35 mw/cm2.

It is of course not surprising thatthe thermal measurement of 350 wattsis incorrect. No allowances were madein this measurement for any type oflosses whatsoever! As already Pointedout In the case of thermal measure-ments by distributed water samplesabove, no validity can be Placed onsuch figures in regard to radiatedpower.

Incidentally, It might also be Pointedout that even assuming the total powerabsorbed was only 350 watts, the esti-mated intensity of 35 mw/cm1 at the

(Wednesday, 11 August, 1976) 76

surface of the phantom assumes auniform field distribution throughoutthe load.

This is clearly not the case. It wouldappear that the average intensity overthe Patient's body surface Is from theelectrical measurements taken, muchnearer to 100 mw/cm' rather than35 mw/cm2!

I emphasise that this man is in a res-ponsible position teaching physics, and hiePlaces his reputation on the line in theforthright way in which he destroys thecase of the National Health and MedicalResearch Council. Now fortunately there Isconsiderable backing for what he said. Drde Laeter said the following about thataspect-

Field MeasurementsI agree with Dr. Bowen that the NH

and MRC measurements of the fieldstrength might be suspect. Any micro-wave detector will distort the electricfield and hence give incorrect valuesof field strength. The question is thateven if the NH and MRC results areInaccurate by a factor of 2, does thisaffect the conclusions drawn by theNH and AMC report'! I do not believethey do, but this is perhaps open todebate.

I referred that report back to Dr Bowen tosee what he thought about that aspect.He said-

(1) Field Measurements.The question is asked whether the

field measurement accuracy is signi-ficant In regard to the conclusions ofthe NH and MRC report. This reportimplied two findings based on thephysical measurements:-

(a) that the Tronado machinewas an Inefficient apparatusfor heating up the humanbody In an uncertain manner;

(b) that the machine was poten-tially dangerous for the treat-ment of patients in certainareas of the body.

Both findings were based upon theactual field readings and the distribu-tion of such readings, Inside theTronado treatment head, both in airand inside a phantom load represent-ing a human body. The inference in(a) Is that the energy transferred tothe Patient is too small and distri-buted indiscriminately over the bodyof the patient. However, statement (b)infers that the energy transferred tothe patient is too large at least incertain definite regions of the body.

The findings were to some extent,contradictory, and since they have beenbased upon the field and powermeasurements as quoted, the accuracyof these measurements Is, I believe, ofconsiderable importance.

We have a further opinion from Dr F. A.Brisbout. This physicist said-

I have read the Perth PublicLibrary copy of the National Healthand Medical Research Council Com-mittee's report on the Tronado S.101machine. It is my opinion that cer-tain aspects of the physical measure-ments undertaken are not acceptableand that there exists a certain weak-ness in the way that some of thestatistics have been handled.

This scientist had no knowledge that I hadin my possession reports by Dr Bowen andDr de Laeter. This report was madeirrespective of either of those two. Hereis a third scientist who questions themeasurements from which a very import-ant opinion was expressed by the NHMRC.He goes on to say-

It is a well understood concept thatno physical measurement can beundertaken in completely absoluteterms. The act of measurement intro-duces a material modification to theassembly under study such that thequantities obtained refer to the modi-fied version and not the original one.Traditional Consideration must there-fore be made so that the modificationsintroduced by the measuring equip-ment are minimal and insignificantand that the modified assembly is avery close approximation to the trueone. This consideration lays downnecessary criteria for the design anduse of the measuring equipment.

(i) With reference to the equip-ment used to measure the flonado

fields.It is my opinion that the above

mentioned criteria have not been met.A series of shielded probes usingcoaxial cable with a solid copper outersheath were used to measure theTronado's magnetic field. The dis-turbance due to this on the field tobe measured could not, In all likeli-hood, be considered 'minimal andinsignificant'. And, dependent on thekind of circuitry associated with theabove mentioned equipment, energycould be absorbed by it which wouldlead to an anomalous estimate of thepower supplied by the treatment head.

The general principle given in theintroduction applies particularly tothe testing of the field measuringequipment. This was apparently car-ried out on a single antenna. Thissituation is equivalent to the separa-tion of one antenna from the rest ofthe ron ado assembly and can hardlybe considered to be a 'very closeapproximation to the original version'.

(ii) With reference to the quantityof field measurements taken.

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It appears that field measurementsinside and outside the phantom wereconfined each to positions in a singlevertical line for two planes.

sitting suspended from 6.15 to 7.30 p.m.Mr J. T. TONKI: Before the tea sus-

pension I was quoting from a report byDr F. A. Brisbout. To continue thatquote-

Though descriptive reference wasmade to relative assessments in vari-ous vertical lines it was not supportedby tabulations of actual measurementsnor were tables given to show howthe field intensities varied over thecross section of the treatment head.(ill) With respect to the thermal

measurements.It would appear that the measure-

ment of temperature rise in the salinefilled phantom consisted of a singleestimate taken after some consider-able length of time. No plotted re-suits of temperature versus time weregiven within this period and no refer-ence was made to considerations re-lated to heat loss. For the abovereasons the validity of the estimateddissipated power is not assured.

Those three reports from persons qualifiedin physics show that the basis for theconclusions of the National Health andMedical Research Council could not beaccepted. Therefore, it is most remark-able indeed that the board of the SirCharles Galrdner Hospital should act inthe way it did in banning the use of themachine following the publication of thatreport.

One of the very bad features of thataction was other hospitals followed suit-the Royal Perth Hospital, the St. John ofCGod Hospital, and the Fremnantle Hospital.That meant no cancer patient in any ofthose hospitals was allowed to be treatedon the Tronado machine. The only wayfor some of those people to be treated onthe Tronado machine was to take themout of the hospitals and arrange to havethem located in certain private hospitalswhich took a different view. A numberof patients were put to considerable ad-ditional expense and Inconvenience be-cause they were keen to get the treatmentand they bad to make a change.

To show what a biased attitude theNational Health and Medical ResearchCouncil took, I propose to quote from thecouncil's opinion of certain Patients andleave it to members to Judge whether theconclusion was reasonable in the circum-stances. My first quotation comes frompage 6 of the report from the council,and reads-

Many of the patients who receivedcombined treatment did display somechanges In their physical signs hutin every one-

I ask members to listen carefully to thefollowing words-

-this could be attributed to the othertherapy given.

The council was not prepared to comeOut and say that the changes must beattributed to other therapy, but that theycould be attributed to other therapy. Whycould not the changes be attributed tothe Tronado machine without proof oneway or the other? That is the first ex-ample. The next example is as follows-

One Patient had massive oedema ofthe neck two years after high doseradiotherapy given elsewhere for acarcinoma of the pharynx with nodesin the neck. This oedema subsidedmarkedly with treatment on theTronado alone leaving the nodes inthe neck easily palpable. Another re-ported shrinkage of a swollen arm,which had followed radical mnastec-tomy, radiation, and lymphangitis.These however did not necessarily re-present destruction of tumour cellsbut probably reflected subsidence ofinfection and an improvement of cir-culation of the part.

There is an absolute disinclination to putforward the possibility that the improve-ment could have been due to the Tronadomachine. It is stated that the improvementcould have been due to something else:no-one was prepared to come out and saythat was so and that the improvementdefinitely was due to something else. Atpage 7 of the report appears the fol-lowing-

In this last patient, X-rays of thehumerus were equivocal but on thebasis of a deflection in the Servogor(see page 16) as it surveyed one arm,activity of Hodgkin's disease in thehumerus was diagnosed. Relief of painfollowed treatment, but in the opinionof the conmmittee this was probablydue to the effect of U.H.F. diathermyfrom the Tronado machine on thecervical spondylosis which was evidentin the S-rays, or occurred spon-taneously,

if the members of the committee had donetheir work properly they would have knownwhat to do in order to say whether or notthe effect had occurred spontaneously.That case concerned a patient who hadHodgkin's disease.

In the report to which I referred earlierby Kristian and Jens Overgaard, at page72 appears the following-

On the other hand, the heat-pro-voked alterations affect both rapidlyand slowly Proliferating tumnour tissue,and the alterations are electivelylocalized in the tumour cells, whereasthe intermingled stroma. and vascula.cells are not affected.

Very rapid new growth of connectivetissue and simultaneous resorption ofthe tumour cells are also characteristic

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(Wednesday. 11 August, 1971] 1767

of the reaction and differ stronglyfrom the slow growth of connectivetissue and resorption which may occurlocally around a spontaneous necrosis.

It was claimed, because of the disinclina-tion to give any credit to the Tronadomachine, the improvement was Probablydue to the effect of the UHF diathermyfrom the Trronado machine which was evi-dent in the X-rays, or occurred spon-taneously.

According to Ovetgaard. all they hadto do was look at the histological appear-ance of the tissue surrounding the mal-ignancy, and that differs strongly wherethe necrosis is spontaneous. Apparentlythey did not know anything about that ordid not want to see it because they did notwant to give credit to the Tronadomachine. To continue-

one had a sacral chordoma and re-duction to less than half its originalsize had been claimed. The committeewas unable to agree that any improve-ment at all had occurred.

Another one is--The histories of all the Institute

patients were made available to theradiotherapists on the committee. Arandom selection of six (carcinomasof the colon, adrenal, lung, stomach(two) and a malignant melanoma)failed to show any objective ameliora-tion-

Listen to this--not attributable to other concurrenttherapy.

So It pleases them where they see anyamelioration of a condition to attribute itto some other cause. It could not Possiblybe the Tronado; oh, no. Here is anotherquotation-

In addition the radiotherapistsclaimed histological proof of a can-cericidal effect but in no case werethe tumiour cells eradicated nor werethe changes described other thanthose which could reasonably be ex-pected in the variable process undertreatment by a number of differentmodalities.

Why could they not have been expectedfrom treatment on the Tronado? They hadno proof it was from the other modalities.But of course it did not suit them. In everyinstance there is a biased judgment.

On page 9 of the report there Is resortto the method to which I have alreadyreferred; that is, where they cannot getaway from the fact that there has beenan improvement they say the patientcould not have had cancer in the firstplace. I quote from page 9 of the report-

A woman was being followed up atthe Institute for a carcinoma of thebreast. She had returned from Mel-bourne having had bony and soft tis-sue metastases treated by surgery anddeep X-ray. She was placed in the

Tronado and the Servogor was saidto show a positive uptake in the head.On the assumption that she had brainmetastases she received treatment bya combination of Tronado, deep X-rayand cytotoxics. Subsequently. fullneurological examination and investi-gations showed no evidence of cerebralmetastases.

Because they could not find any evidenceof cancer they made a statement whichled to the conclusion that she could nothave had cancer in the first place. Whyon earth were people elsewhere treatingher for something which did not exist?That apparently does not matter.

Following the action taken by the boardof the Sir Charles Oalrdner Hospital toban the machine-and this was followedby the boards of other hospitals, as I havealready said--considerable inconvenienceand additional expense had to be incurredto get treatment on the Tronado, and somepeople of course just did not have thetreatment at all. While they remained inSir Charles Gairdner, Royal Perth, Fre-mantle Hospital, or St. John of God's theycould not be treated on the Tronado; theycould do without it.

I moved in the House for the appoint-ment of a Select Committee in order thatwe could go into this report. We couldthen have looked at the opinions of thephysicists. The House did not agree tothe appointment of a Select Committee.The Government announced instead thatit would appoint a special case advisorycommittee, which it did, and it invitedme to nominate a member. I nominatedDr John Holt. This committee, as I havealready said, distinctly limited the natureof the inquiry it could carry out, makingit extremely difficult for it to reach anyworth-while conclusions. But the com-mittee did determine there was no evi-dence of any harm. That, of course, ismost important.

Mr Bertram: Hear, hear!Mr J. T. TONKCIN: It is as well to have

the committee's statement about its ina-bility to come to a conclusion. I quotefrom Page 6 of the report-

The committee agreed that con-clusive assessment is impossible withinthe context of a retrospective studysuch as that which has been under-taken.

It was the study which they themselvesdetermined to undertake: that is the im-portant point. The report goes on-

It considers that there is a strongneed for an experimental study on theeffects of very high frequency radia-tion using the Tronado machine insolid malignant tumours.

This special committee invited the patientswho wanted to be examined to say whetherthey claimed they had received any benefitfrom treatment on the Tronado.

1768 [ASSEMBLY]

According to Information supplied by theMinister representing the Minister forHealth In this House, 27 patients out of 32who were interviewed by the committeeclaimed they had benefited from treat-ment. And, more Importantly, the Claimsof 25 of those 27 patients were supportedby the attending radiotherapists. But thecommittee as a whole was unable to findthat any benefit had been achieved by anypatient. It seems to me to be absolutelyridiculous that it did not make any im-pression at all on the committee that 27out of 32 patients examined claimed theyhad benefited and went before the com-mittee in order to prove it, and in 25 outof those 27 oases the claim were supportedby the attending radiotheraplsts.

In this regard the best testimony mustcome from the patients. I had to make aselection from more than 100 referencesI have but I did not want to keep mem-bers here all night;, half of the night issufficient. So I selected 10 people-four ofwhom have passed away-so that we couldmake a balanced assessment of the situ-ation.

The first case is that of a doctor whocame here from South Australia to betreated himself on the Tronado. He thenwent back to South Australia and whenthe committee was set up he came overhere again to be interviewed by the com-mittee in order to make his contributionto science. Whent the committee was dis-posed to take no notice of him he wrotea letter, of which I have aL copy.

I will leave members to judge whetherthis doctor did not know what he wastalking about or whether the committeeshould have taken notice of him. I referto Dr Stephen Staska of 23 CatalinaAvenue, Parafield Gardens, South Austra-lia. His letter submitted to the committeewas given code No. L 007, Male, 39) years.This Is Dr Staska's letter, dated the 20thMarch, 1976-

Further to my being interviewed bythe committee I shall try to reiterateas fully as possible, however, pleaseforgive me not being able to supplythe exact dates concerned as the re-search of these would mean a con-siderable delay to this letter.

Briefly, after a series of operationsfor recurrent secondary deposits of themelanoma in the left side of my neckI developed one rather large depositsituated deeply and adjacent to theleft side of the larynx in September1974.

Fortunately for my case, this date of Sep-tember, 1974, falls just within the periodof time determined by the committee forexamination-from September, 1974. toSeptember, 1975. Anybody treated beforeSeptember, 1974, or after September. 1975,was out. So the committee Unmited this

inquiry to a 12-month period and DrStaska's trouble occurred in September,1974. The letter continues-

Prior to having this removed Iinsisted specifically to the Surgeon,who was to perform the operation,that under no circumstances was 1Prepared to sacrifice my voice. Irealize that I tied his hands greatly bythis insistence and It was no surpriseto me, therefore, when after theoperation he advised me that the lumpwas In fact a tumor, that he had re-moved most of It, BUT' ...

Following the operation I was leftwith a considerable haematoma, abovethe line of incision (despite Redivacdrainage) in the left sub-mandibularregion. This initially subsided as onewould expect but some two or threeweeks later I developed a hard non-tender, non fiuctuant and non-trans-Illuminable mass in the same area. Atfirst I felt this may be post-operativescar tissue but as the mass continuedto rapidly increase in size its realnature became frighteningly obvious.Three weeks after the operation it wasthe size of a hen-egg, and only oneweek later the size of a goose egg-some 10 cm in diameter. At this stageI commenced a four day course ofintensive Tronado therapy. There wasabsolutely no other treatment given.During these four days the lump haddiminished in size very rapidly and atthe end of the four days it was thesize of a small hen egg-about 4.5 cmIn diameter.

On my return to Adelaide I began acourse of block radiation some threedays later. This course lasted six weeksand by the end of the therapy thelump had further diminished In sizeto a very hard woody scar-like massapproximately 3 cm in diameter, ithas not changed since.

Firstly, r do agree that there is noabsolute proof that the lump in myneck was actually a melanomabecause it had not been biopsied.However I have been practicingMedicine long enough to be able todifferentiate between a simple fluidcyst and a solid tumor. Flurthermoreof the Surgeons I approached, afterthey examined me no-one was pre-pared to biopsy the lesion and franklyeven if they had been prepared to doso, I do not think I would have allowedIt for fear of further spreading themelanoma, I am quite certain thathad any other been In my place hewould have done likewise.

Secondly, I also agree that therewere no photographs and proven dataIn regard to the measurement of thesize of the lump before and after theTronado treatment; however, I havemany reliable witnesses Including my

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Mother, my Brother, who is also aG.P. and his Wile who Is a Sister andmy Wife who is also a Sister whowould be able and I am certain Pre-pared to support my statement.Furthermore You must realize that atthe time my main concern was to getthe treatment that I considered mostlikely to help me as quickly as pos-sible, rather than waste time takingphotographs for some committee ofenquiry which may perhaps eventuatein the future.

I myself consider that while theTronado machine in itself Is not cap-able of necessarily curing cancers, itcertainly represents a very worth-while forward step In the manage-ment of malignancies where used inconjunction with other acceptedmeans of therapy. Most certainly Iconsider that while the Medical Pro-fession has nothing more positive tooffer the unfortunate sufferers of suchconditions it should be looking closelyat the means of combining the use ofthis machine in conjunction withother treatment, with an open mind,to try to provide some help ratherthan be determined to destroy theconcept entirely.

And I completely agree with that, MrSpeaker. Here is a doctor who comes overfor treatment for himself and in regardto substantiation he refers to two relativeswho are Sisters and one who is a generalpractitioner. But what did the committeethink about this case? The committee de-cided he could not have had cancer inthe first place because he did not have thedates and he could not show photographs,

The next case concerns a gentleman whovisited Parliament House this morning andI propose to read to the House his letterto the Minister for Health, of which hesupplied me with a copy. This man lived at"Routiedge", 18 High Peak Place, Lea-murdie, and he wrote this letter to theMinister for Health on the 22nd April,1975. The letter reads as follows--

Dear Sir,re Tronado Cancer Machine andMachines used in Conjunction

therewith.I am writing as a cancer patient

suffering from Lymphosarcorna withthe medical classification of "chronicinvalid" under the medical supervi-sion of Dr J. Holt of 21 MeCourt Street,Leedervilie. I hereby make my medi-cal history the property of the public,for the specific use of Cancer Research.

I was referred to Dr Holt by theStirk Medical Group of Canning Road,Kalamunda nearly three years ago.After hospitalised Pathology tests weretaken and the results confirmed asmalignant Lymphosarcoma (a type ofblood cancer), At this early stage my

local Doctor advised my wife to "tidyup my affairs etc.", as I may not seethe next Xmas (about 5/6 monthshence).

Under the expert and kind treat-ment from Dr Holt I have seen threemore Christmases come and go, withthe fourth hurrying to greet us. Thevague "red herring" of Cataracts andSterility appear to be restrictive think-ing, and if this line were followedwould Maternity Hospitals be closedbecause of the occasional death of amother in child birth? We are allborn to die, nothing is more certain,but let we cancer sufferers do it withdignity. The deferment of that eventis the democratic right of all our citi-zens. Sir Charles Court has foughtthis right, with emotion, so manytimes for Australia, and Western Aus-tralia in particular, please prevail onhim to do so again. Medical Con-trolling Groups have been wrong somany times before in not listening tothe voices of dedicated (sometimes al-most unknowns) people of science. Iam sure you are aware of the greatmen and women to whom I refer.

I am forwarding a photostat copy ofthe front page of the Weekend Newsdated 19th April, 1975 relevant to thissubject, and if the paper has reportedcorrectly I quote the portion "DrBillings said that the committee'sfindings could not in any way be con-tradicted by the future performanceof the machine. He said there was noquestion about it, the machine was In-effective and undesirable".

This would surely have to be thevoice of bigotry and not in keepingwith the Oath taken by all Doctors.In effect should the machine (Tro-nado) prove wholly or partially suc-cessful (as it has In my case) Dr Bil-lings would deny the general publicthe use of the Tronado machine tocancer patients. I am wondering ifsuch an act of professional disregardin Public Health would fall within thescope of "The Restrictive Trades,Practices Act.".

At this point I must state that Ihave been recently treated on thismachine, and have the greatest faithand respect for Its merits and theDoctors and Radiographers and gen-eral staff. They are all deserving ofrecognition for their dedication.

In conclusion I consider that a biasedpanel has been appointed to theCouncil of N. H. & M. R., and suggestthat a new panel, consisting of quali-fied persons specialising in this par-ticular field of medicine and sciencewith up to date reports, be appointedto make this decision.

If this letter appears to be "emo-tional" please bear in mind that I amfighting for my life.

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That letter was signed by John N. Davies.I asked Mr Davies if he received a replyfrom the Minister, and he said he did. Hesupplied me with p, copy. That letter wouldbe a tremendous comfort to anyone expect-ing to die in three months, because this iswhat the Minister said on the 29th April-

Dear Mr Davies,I acknowledge receipt of your letter

of the 22nd April, 1975, concerning thesuggested discontinuance of the use ofthe Tronado Machine.

You may be assured I am consider-ing the situation very closely.

That is full of comfort and full of encour-agement, I must say! Mr Davies, to whomI spoke a couple of days ago, subsequentlyput his wife on the telephone and shespoke to me in very glowing terms andsaid she was very happy about the impro-vement which resulted from the treatmenton the Tronado. I have already said thatMr Davies came here this morning at 10o'clock for the purpose of supplying mewith a copy of the letter he received fromthe Minister for Health.

The next case I Propose to quote con-cerns a person who lives very close Ito me-Mr B. J. Ackley of 37 Roberts Road,Attadale. I might say I have the fullpermission of all these patients, or of theirwidows in those cases where patients havepassed cn, to give these details to theHouse and to the public in the hope thatit may result in the Tronado machinebecoming available to the people. The fol-lowing is a letter I received from MrAckley, and it is dated the 29th September,1975-

The Hon. John Tonkin M.L.A.Dear Sir,

I have taken the liberty of writingyou with regard to the Tronado Ma-chine and Cancer as there has beenso much publicity given, and, to youpersonally as being responsible forintroducing the Tronado Machine mydeepest gratitude.

After numerous pathological tests,my case was proven malignant cancerin the throat.

St. George's Terrace specialist sentme to Dr Holt who Placed me underthe Tronado Machine plus RadioTherapy.

After four weeks i have been dis-charged as fully cured (and I feal I1am) but have to report for check upin two month's time.You may use this letter as You wishso that others may be helped, and Iam prepared to go before any medicalboard for examination.

Again Sincerely Thanking You,B. J. Ackley.

A couple of months after I received thatletter, in response to an Invitation I wentto the trotting ground. I arrived Just afterthe third race when many people werecoming down the ramp. Mr Ackiley, whom

r had never seen in my life and whom,therefore, I could not recognise, saw meand came up and put his hand on myshoulder. He identified himself to me andsaid, "I am the chap who had cancer inthe throat." He told me that he couldnet speak or swallow, because of a growthin his throat, but that after treatmenton the Tronado machine the growth haddisappeared,

Last week I rang him up to see how hewas getting on and he sad, "I am stillthe same, there Is nothing wrong with me.I had a checkup three days ago and therewas no sign of cancer." I asked him whetherhe was prepared to make a statement tothe Press, and he said, "Certainly, I wantto go on television and tell it." He askedme to speak to his wile on the phone, andwhen I mentioned this to her she was alittle hesitant. She felt he should not goon television unless he first toldDr Holt of his Intention to do so. I sawDr Holt a couple of days later and askedhim whether Mr Ackley had beeni in touchwith him about making a statement. DrHolt said, "Yes. I told him that so long ashe did not advertise me he could say whathe liked about it."

There it is. This man is now quite fitand well. He is a man of over 70 yearsof age who had a tumour in his throatand could not swallow or talk. There wasno argument about whether or not hehad a cancer, because the specialists whowere treating him sent him along forTronado treatment, and they knew whatthey were doing.

Now, Mr Speaker, it is frightening toknow that in Western Australia morethan 1 000 women every year have theirbreasts removed because of cancer.In one year-I think it was 1974-i1075women underwent radical mastectomy.What a traumatic experience! I havealready mentioned Mrs Lynette Abbott,who is known to the Leader of theCountry Party; he knows very well thatwhat I am saying about her is true.

I propose now to quote another case.This lady has given me full permissionto give particulars about her case. 11 referto Mrs Bridget Lester of 125 Lawler Street,Subiaco. She was being treated by a well-known surgeon who did not want tooperate again. So, it was arranged thatshe should be treated on the Tronado.

In connection with this case, I had abit of a stir the other day. I put througha telephone call to her residence threetimes during the day, and r received noanswer. As it is wrong to jump to con-clusions, I was slowly coming to the con-clusion that she might no longer be onthis earth. The House happened to besitting that night, and I left the Chamberwhen the thought occurred to me, andput through another telephone call atabout 8.00 p.m. To my great delight sheanswered the telephone.

[Wednesday. 11 August, 1976] 1771

I asked Mrs Lester how she was andshe said, 'Wonderful. I have been to seemy doctor this week and he says he Cansee no sign of my trouble recurring, Whydo you not ring him?"' I said that Iwould like to do that and she gave mehis telephone number. She said, "He willbe in his surgery now. Why don't youring him immediately?" This doctor wouldbe well known to the member for Subiaco,because his practice is in Subiaco.

I telephoned the doctor and said. "Ihave been speaking to Mrs Bridget Lester,who had a cancer in the breast. Do Youagree that she had a cancer in thebreast? Do you know she went on theTronado machine and is now healthy?"The doctor replied, "I do; she is wonder-ful!" There we have the opinion of MrsLester and of her doctor.

I should have mentioned previously thatAckley was one of those who went beforethe special committee. I am not surewhether or not Mrs Lester appeared be-for the committee; I have an idea thatshe did.

The next case to which I wish to referconcerns a person to whom I have alreadyreferred; namely, Mrs Lynette Abbott, whohad a cancer in the breast. I have herphotograph with me. She invited me downto lunch, and told me her story. I havehere a certificate and a letter which Ireceived from her on the 21st March, 1975.I telephoned her last week to see whethershe was still well, and she was bubblingover with joy and excitement. She said."I am well. I have had a checkup withinthe last few days and I am still cancerfree." The following is the letter she wroteto me-

Dear Mr Tonkin,I visited the Radiotheraphy Centre

in Leederville on February 4th for acheck-up and x-ray and am pleased tobe able to inform you that Dr Nelsonand Dr Clubb are quite satisfied aboutmy latest x-ray and have advisedthat as far as they can see I am quitewell.

I also visited ... (surgeon) whoagreed that I am well.

This Is the surgeon to whom I referredwho carried out the biopsy, discoveredthat she had cancer and recommended aradical mastectomy, with which MrsAbbott would not agree. Her letter con-tinues--

Your driver took a photograph atKatanning when you called lastNovember and I would like hisaddress, please so that I may contacthim for a Copy.

Thanks for your interest in my caseand every good wish for success withyour efforts in the promotion of theTronado cancer machine.

Kind regardsLynette Abbott.

Of course, the National Health andMedical Research Council and this specialadvisory committee would say. "Youcannot take any notice of that. Any im-provement she has shown must have beendue to something else."

The next case concerns a Mr Matter of14 Lefroy Road, Beaconsfield. If I remem-ber rightly, he is 75 years of age. I spoketo him on the telephone a couple of daysago, and he informed me he had noworries and was still Perfectly well. Thisis the letter he wrote to me on the 27thJanuary, 1978-

Mr John Tonkin,Dear Sir,

It was You who unknowingly firstintroduced me to the TronadoMachine when in an interview ontelly you praised its use and so I reallyowe you an account of my progresson this wonderful machine.Mr England (Pathologist) performedmy Prostate Gland operation InNovember 1976. told me I had cancer,would probably last five more yearsif I took three Stilboestrol Pills eachday for life.

Dr. A. E. Daley and R. T. Mikostagave me every care and kind atten-tion at this long Period and quicklyresponded (thank God) when I re-quested an interview with Dr Halt.

After examinations by Dr Molt(who told me the Stilboestrol pillswere now useless) he accepted me asa patient on the Tronado at SirCharles Gairdner Hospital.

In only five weeks, three visits aweek I felt so well I was "Jumping outof my skin" and still continue to feelSO.

I lead a very happy life with mywife and family close by, and alsoQuite an active one.

Before Tronado my symptomswere:-

The member for Subiaco would be able tojudge whether these were reasonablesymptoms. He continues-

(1) Persistent and practically con-tinuous daily headaches.

(2) On fairly frequent occasions,stifling hard to breathe attacks.

(3) Various pains, especially whenurinating.

(4) Loss of body weight.(5) Embarrassing cancer odour.All of this is now in the past and

I feel really very well, also regainedlost weight. I am West Australianborn in Suffolk Street, Fremantle, on'7th April, 1901 which makes me 75years next April.

I hope this letter will in some wayhelp to reinstall the Tronado whichI think is a miraculous machine.

1772 [ASSEMBLY]

I also feel it could help bronchitisand Asthma sufferers.

Sincerely.R. A. Matier.

Robert Alexander Matter.P.S. I take no cancer medication of

any kind.

This man had cancer in the prostate gland.Are we to tell him he does not know whathe is talking about and that he never hadcancer in the first place? Or do we tellhinm he is really not well, and still hascancer? This letter was a completelyunsolicited testimonial. Would not heknow better than this committee beforewhich he appeared? However, the com-mittee could not see any validity in iscase.

The other cases to which I wish to referconcern persons who are deceased.' Onecould quite easily imagine that theirwidows or relatives might be disposed tosay, "The Tronado did not cure hini, soit is no good." However, let us see whatthey actually said. Fortunately, docu-mentary proof exists for some of thesecases.

The first one refers to Mr Hall who diedabout ak month ago from a heart attack.He was 85 when he died. According tothe information given to me from his son,to whom I spoke during the week, he diedof a heart attack. The son lived in Lock-hart Street, Como. This letter waswritten to him by the radlotherpaycentre and, is dated the 17th April, 1915.It reads-

Dear Mr Hall,You have asked me to give you a

report on your father, Mr James AlbertHall, age 80. who was referred to mein May 1970 with a history of fourmonths hoarseness of the voice. Therewas no cough but his throat was sore.On examination he was found to havea white area of leukoplakia on theanterior third of the right vocal cordand a biopsy was taken which sug-gested cancer in situ. This means avery early cancer.

It was decided to treat him byradiotherapy on the Linear Acceler-ator he had a dose of 6 000 rads. overa period of seven weeks. There wassatisfactory response and the larynxlooked clear. I saw him last InNovember 1970 when his layn wasnormal and there was no signs of anyspread of the cancer.

He then was referred to me inNovember, 1974-

The information I have obtained fromthe son was that there were four special-ists to decide what to do with him andhe was confined to bed in the repatriation

hospital. I have checked this informationwith the Deputy Commissioner for Repat-riation (Mr Williams). To continue-

-when I saw him in consultation withother doctors and it was apparentthat the growth had recurred as a,small white growth on the anteriorend of the right vocal cord. As hehad had extensive radiotherapy pre-viously, a laryngectomy was consideredthe best theoretical treatment. How-ever this patient was then 81 and wasnot in very good condition and it wasdoubtful whether he would havewithstood the operation and the post-operative management. This patientdeclined to have surgery and he wasreferred to me again in March and Ifound that the tumour had slightlyincreased in size but the larynx wasquite mobile and the cancer had notextended beyond the larynx. As theonly alternative for this patientappeared to be retiring to hospital formorphia until he died, I agreed thathe could be tried again with smalldoses of radiation using the Tronadomachine-

It has been found that where it is notPossible, when treating patients who havehad a large amount of radiotherapy, togive them more radiotherapy, by usingTronado a very small amount of radiumtreatment Is efficient. That Is borne out byliterature I have in my Possession andcould read. The letter continues-

-which has been found to have asynergistic effect and enhance theeffect of radiation. This meant thatalthough he could not tolerate anothercancer course of X-ray therapy, hemay be able to be controlled or curedby a much smaller dose of radiationif this was used in conjunction withthe Tronado V.HF radiation.

He has had a first course duringwhich time his voice has improved agreat deal and his throat has felt verycomfortable. The vocal cord is whiteand slightly swollen and the tumourhas subsided but has not completelydisappeared. The cord is inflammedand slightly fixed. He has had only1,500 rads. which is a small amount ofradiation and he has had a numberof exposures of V.H.F.. I have advisedthe Repatriation Department that heshould rest for three weeks to allowthe small amount of radiation reac-tion to subside so that he may toleratefurther treatment.

This man Is much better in himselfat this stage and It is hoped to beable to control this tumour now for aconsiderable time by continuingtherapy.

Last Christmas this man's son rang meto wish mre a merry Christmas, telling methat his father had recovered and left

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[Wednesday. 11 August, 19761 1773

hospital and was holidaying down in thesouth-west. He died about a month agofrom a heart attack.

The next concerns a deceased personnamed J. E. Rogers. This letter was writtenby his widow from 2. Ashurst Drive, Les-murdie. It is written to the doctor. Itreads--

With so much publicity about theTronado machine my family and my-self would like to express our sinceregratitude to you and your staff forthe comfort and help my husbandreceived from your treatment.

Without it we could not have kepthim at home with us until nineteenhours before he died, also because ofit, he was relieved of all pain whichmeant we were able to have a happyXmas and New Year.

Two days before he died he did noteven have a headache, which meantwe were permitted to keep him athome with us for an extra ten weeks.

If there is any way in which I canhelp please let me know, as the ban-ning of this machine is going to causeso much pain and so much sorrow forso many people.

That is signed by the widow. The nextconcerns a deceased Person named MrCollier from 18 Bessell Avenue, Como,dated the 18th May, 1975. It is written tome and states-

I lost my Husband on the 25th ofMarch with Cancer. Dr Nicholls re-moved his right lung 2* years ago,and hoped he had checked It but ina few months the Cancer had travelledto his groin, and finally to his head.The Doctors told me there was noth-ing more they could do for him. Itwas dreadful to see him suffering thepamn he said was terrific-although hewas on the strongest pain killers. They(the doctors) decided to call in DrHolt. With my Husband's permissionDr Holt treated his groin, and hishead. Within a week the violent headaches he was getting vanished, alsothe pain in his groin. Before he wenton the Tronado machine he could notwalk without a walking stick. Hethrew it away and could walk norm-ally. Although he has passed away(the cancer had taken too much ofa hold before he was put on themachine) the Tronado machine ex-tended his life, and made him free ofpain. I can't speak too highly of it.I pray that Dr Holt will be allowedto carry on this good work. PleaseMr Tonkin don't give up hoping.

As I said earlier, that is just a selection ofcases. This is the final one I shall quote.This unfortunate person died on the 28th

June of this year. The date of the letteris the 8th May of last year. It is as fol-lows--

Dear Sir,I have just been reading this morn-

ing's "West". The article "Tonkin ob-sessed with Tronado". I feel it's timefor me to speak up too.

I have just written to Mr Ridge tell-ing him what the Tronado machine,plus cobalt 60 treatment has done formy husband.

I hope my letter will help to changehis attitude.

I will not copy out the letter I sentto him, it's too long and emotional.However, I would like to give you thefact of my huband's case.

First of all, my husband is a turneddown miner, whose lungs are 65% in-capacitated. He has not worked inthe mines since December 1984.

He has an annual X-ray in March.He could no longer work and gaveup his employment in February 1974.

He had an X-ray on March 6th1974. No sign of any growth.

His private doctor sent him backfor another X-ray in late Septemberor early October 1974. In that time,between X-rays, a large growth haddeveloped.

Dr Nicholls, a specialist in lungsurgeon told my husband (alter testsand examinations) that the growthwas galloping and had to be treatedquickly. He also said as my husband'slungs were in such a weak condition,It was too risky to operate.

This was a terrible blow. We have3 young children, aged 14, 13 and 9years. My husband is 52 years old.

We had to stand helplessly by whilemy husband's condition got worse.Then Doctor Holt started treating himon the Tronado Machine and Cobalt80.

I cannot tell you of the terribletime my husband went through andof the many times my children and Iwent out the back and cried ourhearts out, of the sleepless nights Ilay awake listening to hear if my hus-band was still breathing.

He was practically bedridden. Onlyable to dress with help, but deter-mined to walk out to the waiting caron his own, to go for his treatment.My friends and family urged me toget my husband to make his Will. Notone Person who saw my husbandthought he'd be still alive at Xmas.My children and I were absolutelyheart broken and full of despair. Twodays alter my husbands treatment wasover, he got out of bed, washed, shavedand dressed himself.

P774 ASSEMBLY]

He then went to his car and drovehimself down to the local hotel andhad a couple of drinks with his friends.

He had not been able to drive hiscar for over two months.

I was so frightened, I could not bearto look as he backed the car out ofthe garage. I was, so sure he'd col-lapse.

He spent Christmas day, sitting ina lounge chair.

We know he is not cured of cancer.But the growth is now not even a& the size it was. The most importantthing is he has relief from the crip-pling pain and doesn't need anywherenear the amount of pain killing tabletshe had before.

As far as the children and I areconcerned we count our blessings. Wenot only have our husband andfather, but he is wefl enough to takeus for drives in the car, and have alittle fun with us. This is somethingto cherish as before Christmas wethought those little pleasures wouldno longer be for us. As long as theTronado machine can give relief frompain, it is doing a mighty job.

As you yourself, Sir, know what it'slike to stand helplessly by watchinga dearly loved one suffer I know Idon't have to go into details of whatit's like. Bless you for trying to help.if you had not been the Instigator ofgetting the Tronado Machine to W.A.1 would not have been able to say "Wenow have a complete family" as therewould have been a very big gap inours.

Yours humbly & gratefully,Mrs. Md. E. Munro.

I found out today that Mr Munro died ofpneumonia on the 28th June last.

What evidence do we have to producein order to justify the contention thatthis machine should be allowed to oper-ate? Guettnier produced five Tronados. andthere is none available outside of WesternAustralia for possible purchase. Besidesthe two here there is one in France. onein Switzerland, and one in Germany.Western Australia is fortunate in havingtwo Troniado machines, although one isidle.

Why do these doctors in Calgary,Canada, suddenly decide to be possessedof our Tronado machine? I shall tell You,Mr Speaker. Some time ago we had a visitfrom a Dr Hornback who was head ofthe largest medical school in the USA.He came here specially to see the Tronado.

I quote from The West Australian ofthe 11th April, 1975. Under the headingof "Tronado design for the U.S." the fol-lowing appeared-

A radiotherapist and a physicistfrom the United States who have been

studying the 'flon ado microwaveMachine and its use in Perth returnedhome last night with the intentionof building three or four similarmachines.

They are Dr N. Hornback (44).chief of the department of radiationtherapy at the University of Indiana,and a physicist in the department, DrR. Schupe.

Dr Hornback said they would buildmicrowave therapy machines for thetreatment of cancer in animals usedfor experiments and for the treat-menit of human cancer.

A study of the Tronado in Perthduring their five-day stay had shownits essential design to be based around12 diathermy units. They wouldbuild similar machines with variablefrequencies.

Dr Hornback said his university hadthe biggest medical school in theUnited States.

He had been engaged in radiationtreatment for cancer patients for 12years.

Amazed"I have been amazed by what I have

seen of some of the patients and casehistories of people who have hadtreatment on the Tronado in Perth,"he said.

Is it not remarkable that the membersof the National Health and MedicalResearch Council were not impressed oramazed, and the members of the latestcommittee were similarly not amazed, butthe head of the largest medical school inthe USA was amazed?

To carry on the story, Dr Hornback builtthese machines. He had such tremendoussuccess that he is now collaborat-ing with the group of doctors whowant to buy our machine. When DrLevant was in my office last week hiswords were, "It is likely that at this veryminute Dr Hornback. is talkng with mycolleagues about their programme ofresearch which will be carried on."

Are we to be in the situation that wedeny cancer sufferers in Western Aust-ralia the use of this machine at SirCharles Gairdner Hospital, and send itto Canada so that the doctors there cantreat cancer sufferers in Canada: andthat in due course when the Tronadobecomes accepted throughout the world,as it undoubtedly will, we will have topay a darn sight more to get the samemachine than we had to pay initially?How much sense would there be in that?

Now, It is a great thing to know that atlast people elsewhere have woken up tothe possibilities of this treatment. WesternAustralia has paved the way, despite theopposition. As a matter of fact, it could

1774

(Wednesday, 11 August, 19781

be the opposition has been a blessing indisguise because it stirred up a numberof people and encouraged them to, haveanother look.

One of the remarkable features aboutthe situation is that there is no troublewith general practitioners. When theyhave a patient suffering with cancer theyshoot him off for treatment on theTronado. I could reel off the names of anumber of doctors who have referred theirpatients for treatment on the Tronadoand they agree the patients have benefited.It is the other people-the Intelligentsiaand some university professors-who saythat we cannot have this because it does nogood and will not do anything. They closetheir eyes to what Is said by the peoplewho claim they benefited. They will nothave that at all.

Members will recall the number of nameson the petition I presented last year. if Imade an appeal to the people of WesternAustralia to march in this city I guaranteewe could raise a march of 10 000 peoplewithout the slightest trouble. It is almostimpossible to go anywhere in the Statetoday without finding someone who knowsabout someone else who has benefited.

During the week my wile went into CartsBros. and a gentleman there said to her,"I see Your husband is moving on theTronado machine again'. She said thatI was. He said that he knew a horse trainerfrom up country who had cancer and whohad been on the Tronado and was con-sequently now back training his horses.This is true. I have confirmed it.

I have mentioned many who have bene-fited. While I have all these letters, I haverecords of dozens and dozens of telephonecalls from people urging me not to give upand indicating the machine must bebrought into operation.

My motion asks that it be broughtinto operation, but not in Western Aus-tralia.. However, that is what I wantbecause I cannot see the sense in sellingIt to someone else to do what we can doourselves here and what we have done withsuch great success.

My inquiries of the doctors operatingthe machine here reveal they are fullyoccupied with the machine and they aregiving serious consideration to having asecond one built. I put this aspect tomembers: once we can get the women Inthe community-those thousands who eachyear lose a breast-to realise that there isevery chance of their getting rid of thecancer if they are treated on the Tronado.there would be such a. demand for treat-ment that we would not have the capacityhere to treat them all. It is my belief thatwe are only a few months off generalacceptance.

It has been established now that it hasbeen known for 50 years or more thatheat will destroy cancer. All we have toshow is that the Tronado machine is

capable of applying the necessary 42degrees to destroy the malignancy. Wecan accept what Dr Bowen, Dr de Laeter,and Dr Brisbout have said. They havestated the measurements used by theNational Health and Medical ResearchCouncil committee cannot be relied uponand therefore the calculation as to whetherthe Tronado) can produce the heat cannotbe relied upon at all.

Consider the 20-year-old girl from upcountry who had in her stomach a canceras big as a football. Her mother (MrsNottle) brought her to my office and theyboth sat there talking to me. That cancerwhich was as big as a football is no longerthere. No wonder Mrs Nottle was instru-mental in obtaining a, large number ofsignatures of people in country districtsasking for the machine to be kept in use!

Surely we have reached the stage wherewe can be sensible about this and acceptthe evidence right under our noses.

The other day a most remarkable state-ment appeared in the paper. I am indebtedto Dr Kilgour who must be a man of con-siderable courage to have said what he did.The article appeared in The West Auts-tralian on the 9th August, and there canbe no argument that he was misquotedbecause his statement appeared in in-verted commas. We must bear in mind thatthere have been two supposedly expertcommittees trying to evaluate the Tronado.This is what Dr Kilgour said-

"There has been no proper evalua-tion of the Tronado machine," he said."Wc still don't know what it does."

Surely that cuts the ground completelyfrom under the feet of the NHMARC andthe special advisory committee. Dr Kilgour-and no-one is in a better position toknow than he-has said that there hasbeen no proper qvalutlon; and I agreeabsolutely.

In the face of that how can we allowa situation to continue under which themachine is not being used? After thereport of the special evaluation committeewas issued and Dr Kilgour was askedwhether the Sir Charles Gairdncr Hospitalwould do anything about the machine, hesaid that the hospital's action woulddepend upon the decision of the Govern-ment. Therefore the situation is that allthe Government has to do-and in myview it should do it-is to give an indica-tion that this machine should be put backinto use and the board will do it. Thatwill mean then that the patients in SirCharles Gairdner who want treatment onthe Tronado, can have it; those patientsin Royal Perth Hospital who want treat-ment on the Tronado, will have it; andthose people in St. John of God Hospitaland the Fremantle Hospital who want thetreatment on the machine will be able tohave it also.

Who are we to deny it to them in theface of the testimony of the men them-selves who are still alive and the widows

1778 ASSEMBLY]

and other relatives of those who havepassed on? Surely we could not justifythat situation. In view of what Dr Le Veenand his four colleagues claim about theimprovement they effected in 21 cancerpatients in New York by using microwavetherapy, surely to goodness we can realisethat we are on the eve of the acceptanceof the best cancer therapy known in theworld today.

Therefore I trust that as a result of whatI have told the House-and I guaranteethat what I have said is fully documentedand supported scientifically as well as bythe testimony of those persons concerned-there will be no difficulty in the mindsof members as to what they ought to dowhen the time comes to vote on themotion.

When Dr Levant was talking to me, ashe did for 1+ hours, he showed me twosets of Photographs of people who hadbeen treated in Canada with a small sec-tion of 434 megahertz diathermy. Thereare 12 in the Tronado machine. First ofall, he showed mue a picture of a manwho was suffering from cancer of his foot.It was a horrible looking inflamed injury.He then showed me a picture of the samefoot taken three weeks later after the manhad ultra high frequency treatment andthere was no sign of the cancer;. not evena sear on the man's foot.

I was then shown a picture of a manwho had a cancer under his eye and,'again, it was a horrible protuberance.That cancer was treated with ultra fre-quency therapy and after some weeks oftreatment another picture was taken ofthat man's face which showed no sign ofthe cancer.

No wonder they are enthusiastic aboutgetting our Tronado machine and takingit to Canada. I told Dr Levant I was notenthusiastic about assisting him to takeaway the Tronado machine, and I askedhim what his programme of researchwould be If the machine were kept here,He said that would cause a delay of eightmonths. Canada has $1 million to spend.It received 2150 000 from a personwhose name I know to further researchInto ultra high frequency microwaves. Itis proposed to carry out further experi-ments on animals and also on humanbeings in collaboration with Dr Hornbackwho already has had some success.

It is as obvious as a missing tooth thatbefore long this form of treatment willbe accepted throughout the world. Wehave to make up our minds whether weshould indicate to the Government thatwe object to Its selling this machine. Myinformation is that a substantial sum hasbeen offered for it; as a matter of fact, Icould mention the amount although I havebeen told by the Government that no offerhas been made,

It has to be remembered that as soonas the offer is accepted there will be fur-ther Publicity in the United States. On

what Dr Levant has said, on behalf of thedoctors at Brooklyn, there will be suchpressure from cancer sufferers to obtaintreatment that we will not be able to copewith it.

Those people have a large sum of moneyavailable so let them build their morePowerful machine. It will not be anydifferent in principle. It will be an ultrahigh frequency microwave machine. WhenDr Hornback was here he told me thatGuettner might have hit upon the correctfrequency, but it is possible that bychanging the frequency of the microwavea better and quicker result might beobtained, He said that was what he wouldexperiment with.

In the literature which I have with meit is mentioned more than once that Itis considered the microwave treatmentdoes not rely on heat alone; there issome other factor which is also Present.Dr Levant told me it was his intention totry to discover the other factor, so thatwould be the main aim of the treatmentwhich will be followed, There is no argu-ment amongst those doctors about theefficacy of heat treatment if the heat canbe lifted to the required temperature. Theillustrations I have given about tumourtissue being raised to a higher tempera-ture than the healthy tissue Indicatethere is very little difficulty with regardto that. If it can be discovered that adifferent frequency from that of theTronado machine will give a better re-sult, then the fact that the Tronado wasbrought here in the first place will havemade a marvellous contribution, becauseit is our success which has fixed theattention of the Americans and theCanadians on the possibilities of micro-wave therapy.

I now leave the matter In the hands ofmembers hoping they will have a balancedjudgment on this question. It transcendsparty politics.

Mr T. J. Burke: Hear, hear!

Mr J. T. TONKIN: We are consideringwhat we ought to do to assist people whosuffer from one of the most dreadfuldiseases one can contract and we wouldfind it hard to justify in our consciencesif we deny People the right of treatment.more especially as the latest committeehas stated there is no evidence of anyharm from the treatment. That has beenborne out by scientists in other parts of theworld. If there is no evidence of harm,and if there is even a possibility of benefit,who are we to tell people that we will notmake the machine available for use afterIts Purchase with the taxpayers' money.

[Applause by Opposition members.)

Mr DAVIES: I second the motion.

Debate adjourned, on motion by MrRidge (Minister for Lands).

1776

(Wednesday, 11 August, 1976] 1777

SUPPLY BILLReturned

Bill returned from the Council withoutamendment.

EDUCATIONAppointment of Standing Committee:

MotionMR A. R. TONKIN (Morley) [8.59

p.m.): I move-In the opinion of this House, a

Legislative Assembly standing com-mittee on education should be estab-lished forthwith.

I think the time has come when we shouldquestion whether there is any point inkeeping Parliament going. We have toconsider very seriously whether Parlia-ment is worth keeping in its present form.Many people are beginning to questionthis very fact. It costs a great deal ofmoney to keep Parliament going and wehave the spectacle, night after night, ofGovernment back-benchers slumbering onthe benches.

Mr Nanovich: While the Opposition iswasting time.

Several members interjected.The SPEAKER: Order!IMr A. R. TONKIN: The Premier knows

better than anyone else that this place isa farce, that what he wants will gothrough this House and the other House,and that this is an expensive rubberstamp.

The Legislative Council sat for 22minutes last week: 22 minutes! I thinkthe people have a right to questionwhether in fact they are getting theirmoney's worth. I believe they are not.When we consider the job being done byother Parliaments which have committeestrying to grapple with the great and com-plex problems facing society, the greatreports which come out of various Parlia-ments all over the world, and the lack ofserious study by this Parliament, we mustquestion the whole system.

I might say that during the time MrJ. T. Tonkin was Premier, seven SelectCommittees were working in this Parlia-ment. Since the present Parliament hasbeen in operation under the iron fist ofthe present Premier there has been oneSelect Committee, and that resulted froma motion moved by a Labor member-the Deputy Leader of the Opposition-andamended by a Country Party member-the member for Moore. It was certainlynothing of which the Liberal Party couldclaim to be the author in any way. Thatis a sevenfold disparity between the valu-able work which was done in various areasin the life of the 27th Parliament and thework which has been done during the 28thParliament.

We of the Opposition believe in Publicinvolvement. We believe the people havea right to come to Parliament in a formalway to get our ear and make submissionsto us, not in the Privacy of our officeswhen what is said may not see the lightof day but Publicly so that they can at-tempt to influence the legislators who aresupposed to represent them.

Mr Bertram: Hear, hear!Mr A. R. TONKfI: In my opinion, the

whole of human history shows that Gov-ernments cannot be trusted. It Is Justnot good enough for a Government to say,"Don't worry, we are looking after you."George Orwell wrote about the Year 1984,the time of "Big Brother". I suggest inWestern Australia the time of "BigBrother" has arrived.

It is suggested we should have faith inthe experts. When another motion wasmoved a great deal of evidence was pro-duced to show that experts have madesome alarming errors in the field ofnuclear Power generation-to such an ex-tent that hundreds of experts throughoutthe world have resigned from the well paidJobs they would otherwise have had forlife because they felt they could no longerbe responsible for or associated with anindustry which was not as safe as onewould desire. So it cannot be said weshould have faith in the experts when, onspeaking to them, the experts themselvesadmit in all humility they make errors.

We are not saying we should substituteour work for the work of the experts.What we want is to put the experts intouch with Parliament. The experts arein touch with the Ministry. The Cabinethas the best technical expertise availableto a Government within the Governmentservice. That expert advice is not avail-able to the Parliament as a whole and webelieve it should be so that it is possiblefor the Parliament, as distinct from theMinistry, to find out what the experts haveto say. So we are thinking of two kindsof input: we are thinking of the expertinput and the input by the general public.

We believe Parliament should be orga-nised efficiently. It is claimed loudly, es-pecially by conservatives, that they areproud of their British heritage; but in1889 the House of Commons introduceda system of committees, so we are rapidlybecoming 100 years behind the times. Thisis the only Parliament of which I haveknowledge which is without a committeesystem. I think the lack of activity inthis regard by this Parliament is a dis-grace.

The Government is increasingly involv-ing itself in more and more activitieswhich are becoming more and more com-plex, and I believe it is very wrong for usto remain in the horse and buggy days, aswe are, or In the Pre-Cambrian age as far

1778 [ASSEMBLY]

as Parliament is concerned, by not attemp-ting to put ourselves in touch with a greatdeal of the evidence which is available.

The motion before us is related to theeducation system. There are many areasIn the education system which need inves-tigation. Education is a very wide field.The word "education" encompasses pre-school, primary, secondary, and technicaleducation, colleges of advanced education,the universities, special education prob-lems, and so on. It is a very complex fieldand I would Imagine a standing committeeon education would choose one particulararea to investigate and could with profitto members themselves-because we, too,need education-Spend a considerableperiod of time investigating one particulararea.

Mr Thompson: No Professional occupa-tion is more heavily represented In thisParliament than education.

Mr A. R. TONKIN: That may be so, andit is a teacher who is moving this motion.I have spoken about this matter to hun-dreds of teachers, both inside and outsidethis Parliament, who believe a greatermeasure of expertise should be shown bylegislators. I think the problem is wetake our responsibilities far too lightly.Any Bill which comes forward goesthrough. Not a single Bill has been seri-ously questioned by this Parliament in thetime of the Court Government.

Of course, It would be up to such astanding committee to decide which mat-ters to Investigate but one of the mattersI suggest it could have a look at is thepromotion system as far as teachers areconcerned. A great deal of disquiet pre-vails about that among members of theTeachers' Union, principals, parents, andstudents, Obviously the system which Isoperating is not the best, Indeed, I have aletter from the Minister for Educationindicating that he Is looking at this ques-tion. It would be hard to find many peoplein Western Australia who are satisfied thatour promotion system is working.

Special education, remedial, education,teacher education, the country hostelssystem which Is not operating at all well-these are a few matters which come to mymind at random, although I make no at-tempt to suggest the areas which shouldbe investigated or even the most pressingareas.

Let us look at some of the committeeswhich are operating throughout Australia.In the Australian Parliament we have theSenate Standing Committee on Educa-tion, Science, and the Arts, which broughtdown a report on teacher education, andI would say those people are earningtheir salaries by producing such reportsas the Senate reports on air pollution andwater pollution, the House of Representa-tives report on wildlife conservation, andthe Senate report on securities and ex-change. We also have the House of

Representatives Standing Committee onthe Environment, Conservation, andNatural Resources; the Senate StandingCommittee on Regulations and Ordln-ances; and the Parliamentary StandingCommittee of the Federal Parliament onPublic Works. In Victoria there are stand-Ing committees 'on company takeovers,road safety, Statute law revision, andsubordinate legislation. In South Australiathere are standing committees on sub-ordinate legislation, Public works, landsettlement, and industrial development.

That is not an exhaustive list of thevarious committees which exist in Aus-tralia but it shows we are lagging. For aState on the move we do not seem to bemoving very fast in this direction.

On the 27th November, 1974, the Pre-mier replied to me when I raised thematter of the committee system. Thisis reported on page 3818 of Mansard ofthat year, and referring to me the Premiersaid

..I know he will keep on with it untilwe do something about it.

There was an admission that there wouldbe action but that the Government wouldkeep putting off what eventually shouldbe done, There was no attempt to showthat such a system was undesirable in anyway.

I am reminded of the Royal Commis-sion which was set up to Inquire into thecorridor scheme. That commission wascomposed of one member of the LiberalParty, one member of the Country Party,and one member of the Labor Party; andthe commission suggested unanimouslythat a standing committee on town plan-ning should be established, The com-mission considered this to be an area ofgreat involvement and also one of greatdissatisfaction. This was a suggestion fromthree people representing three differentpolitical parties.

As I have said before, our incorrect senseof priorities is Illustrated in that we havea committee set up to look after the sto-machs of members of Parliament, and wedo not have committees to inquire intovital areas such as education. It is moreimportant to have a committee to runour dining room and to look after thestomachs of members of Parliament-judging by most of them, they are largeenough to look after themselves-than tohave a committee to look Into the ques-tion of education.

The Commonwealth Solicitor-General(Mr Maurice Byers) stated that each StateParliament should have a committee toexamine proposed legislation to ensure thatit did not grant unnecessarily widepowers. I believe that at the time theSolicitor-General had in mind the fuel andenergy legislation passed by this Parlia-ment. However, a Solicitor-General of theCommonwealth believed that legislation isoften blindly acceded to by Parliament

1778

[Wednesday. 11 August. 1976)

and that there need to be committees tolook at it to see that powers granted arenot too wide.

A f orner Prime Minister (Mr McMahon)stated that a committee system should becreated so that back-benehers could haveaccess to policy makers, and the policymakers to whom he referred-and this isa sad comment on Australian society-were members of the bureaucracy. So therewe have a suggestion that back-benchersshould have a greater role to play. Ap-parently the back-benchers of this Par-liament do not want to Play a meaningfulrole In the Parliament.

Mr Bertram: Only on the Liquor ActAmendment Bill!

Mr A. R. TONKIN: In conclusion rwould like to refer to the support I havehad for this motion from many sources.In both 1975 and 1976 the Dale DistrictCouncil of the Parents & Citizen's Associa-tion indicated support for this motion.

Mr Davies: Their member would prob-ably vote for it, do you think?

Mr A. R. TONKIN: A councillor of theKalamunda. District Council said that hehad canvassed 13 parents and citizens'associations in the district and he foundthey all agreed with the object of themotion.

Mr Davies: Another guaranteed vote?

Mr A. R. TONJKIN., The RichmondParents & Citizens' Association agreed withthe motion: the Armadale Primary SchoolParents & Citizens' Association supportsthe motion; and the East Maylands Pa-rents & Citizens' Association supports italso.

The Parents & Citizens' Association Ofthe Morley Senior High School has in-dicated that it is in favour of the motion;and the Secondary Teachers' Collegebranch of the Academic Staff Associationof WA Teachers' Colleges also has indi-cated that it Supports the establishmentof a Parliamentary Standing Committee oneducation.

The Leederville Parents & Citizens' As-sociation said it was surprised that sucha committee was not established already,and it supports the motion. The SubiacoSchool Council of the Subiaco PrimarySchool supports the motion. I have re-ceived letters also from many Individualteachers, and 1 would like to mention oneteacher who said, "I am at a loss to knowwhy such a committee was not establishedlong ago."

Finally, I would like to refer to twobodies which between them represent thebiggest proportion of educational interestsin Western Australia-the State SchoolTeachers' Union and the WA Council ofState School Organisations which, asmembers know, represents all Parents andcitizens' associations in Western Australia.Both these organisations have indicated

their wholehearted support for the estab-lishment of a Parliamentary StandingCommittee on education.

Mr Davies: Do you think the matterbecomes any more urgent because of thechange in Government In Canberra?

Mr A. R, TONKIN: That is a validpoint. I believe we will see a downgrad-ing of education from conservatives whohave always feared it. Therefore, we willneed someone to speak up on behalf ofthe educationists in Western Australia.

In conclusion I would like to remindthe House that representatives of all theparents and citizens' associations in West-ern Australia and representatives of allthe State school teachers in Western Aus-tralia support the motion. I have noreason to believe that the union repre-senting teachers in private schools wouldnot support it, although I do not knowits views.

I would like to remind members that wesit here as representatives of the peopleto make the laws of the land, and if wedo not see to it that we are legislatingfrom knowledge, then we are net dis-charging our duties responsibly-in fact,we are legislating from ignorance. Ibelieve that the public is not getting itsmoney's worth from this Parliament. Justthink of the work which could have beenaccomplished last week by a committeecomposed of Legislative Council memberswhen members in another place sat for 22minutes only. Just imagine the work thatcould have been done during the parlia-mentary recess which lasted for somemonths.

Mr Thompson: We were on holidays!Mr A. R. TONKIN: Information could

have been sought during this period. Forexample, last night the member for Balgasuggested the establishment of a SelectCommittee to inquire into building societ-ies. The comment from the Minister was,"Good heavens-you have had this sinceMay. What do you want any further timefor?"

The parliamentary recess could havebeen used to inquire into legislationrather than members using it to iron outtheir golf swings. I do not believe therecess should be used in that way-itshould be used to investigate matters sothat we can legislate from a basis ofknowledge.

Mr Sodemnan: You should not be dis-paraging like that about your colleagues.

Several members interjected.Mr A. R. TONKIN: This hits members

on the raw. People might wake up-Mr Young: How many on your side do

that?Several members interjected.The SPEAKER: Order!

1780 [ASSEMBLY]

Mr A. R. TONKIN: Government mem-bers sit there and when the Premier says,"Jump", they jump. They accept anylegislation which is introduced into thisplace and of course they are now writh-ing in agony because someone is daringto say something about what goes on inthis place.

Several members interjected.The SPEAKER: Order!FMr A. R. TONKIN: I reiterate: We

should either discharge our duties properlyor we should close Parliament down,because it is becoming quite clear thatParliament, in its present form, has out-lived its usefulness.

Several members interjected.The SPEAKER: Order!Mr A. R. TONKIN: I know Government

members are trying to silence me.Mr Bertram: They have no hope.Mr A. R. TONKIN: It is like the jungle

at moonrise, Ur Speaker. I believe weshould either do our job properly or closethis place down because as it is presentlyconstituted it is of no further use.

MR GRAYDEN (South Perth-Minis-ter for Labour and Industry) [9.20 p.m.]:May I say that If the member for Morleycontinues as he has--

Mr A. R. Tonkin-, I will be asked out-side again.

Mr GRAYDEN: -that might wellhappen, too-he will gain for himself avery firm reputation as being the DonQuixote of this Parliament.

Mr Nanovich: Hear, hear!Mr GRAYDEN: He seems to travel end-

lessly and aimlessly about this State tiltingat windmills. But I would say this: Whenhe criticises the parliamentary institutionof this State or the parliamentary insti-tution of Australia, or the Westminstersystem of government, he has never beenon less firm ground. He does this con-stantly. I Jotted down some of the com-ments he made. He said it Is a questionof whether it is desirable to keep Parlia-ment going. He talked in terms of Parlia-ment being an expensive rubber stamp.and he went on to denigrate it to thegreatest extent possible. He constantlydenigrates our parliamentary system.

I wonder what he would put in its place.Does the member for Morley want toreplace our Parliament with the type ofadministration found in Soviet Russia? Isthat what he seeks? He is constantly deni-grating the Westminster system of govern-ment, and in so doing he is supported byother members opposite.

Withdrawal of RemarkMrf A. B. TONKIN: I find it exceedingly

offensive for the Minister to say I deni-grated the Westminster system. As a mat-ter of fact, I held it up as a paragon of

virtue in my speech. I request that theMinister withdraw the untruth that Idenigrated the Westminster system.

The SPEAKER: I must ask the Ministerto withdraw the offending remark.

Mr GRAYDEN: If the member finds thatoffensive, I am happy to withdraw it.

Debate ResumedMr GRAYDEN: However, I am also

happy to find the member putting himselfon record as being one who does not deni-grate the Westminster system.

I am delighted to see that we now havea statement recorded in Hansard by themember for Morley expressing that parti-cular viewpoint, because the member wentout of his way to denigrate this particularParlament. He has done that constantlyin the past, and he does so, it would seem,because he loathes the type of Parliamentwe have in this country. I find It extremelyoffensive that anyone in this House shouldhave views of that kind.

To get back to the point I was making,I wonder what the member for Morleywould seek to replace this institution with.Is It not the type of government foundin Soviet Russia?

Mr A. R. Tonkin: A decent kind of Par-liament; you know that.

Mr GRAYDEN: Is that a decent Parlia-ment, elected on the basis of there beingonly one candidate for whom the peoplecan vote?

Mr A. R. Tonkin: That is not so. Whatabout a. bit of honesty?

Mr GRAYDEN: What is the alternativeto the Parliament we have in this State?

Several members interjected.The SPEAKER: Order!FMr OHAYDEN: The alternative, as the

member for mt. Hawthorn knows only toowell, Is the Soviet type of government.

Mr Davies: Are you sober?Mr GRAYDEN: It would appear that Is

what members opposite would support,because that is the only alternative.

Point o1 OrderMr A. R. TONKIN. It Is offensive to me

for the MKinister to suggest that we shouldhave in this place a one-party type ofgovernment. The Minister knows only toowell that I said I believed in the West-minster system, and I would like to see Itintroduced here; and that Is not theSoviet system-

The SPEAKER: Order! There is no pointof order. There Is a cleavage of opinionthat has been expressed. The member hasnot asked for a withdrawal, so I ask theMinister to continue.

Withdrawal of RemarkMr A. R. TONKIN: I might not have

made myself clear, Mr Speaker. I requestthat the remark be withdrawn.

1780

[Wednesday. 11 August, 1976) 78

The SPEAKER: What remark?Mr A. R. TONKIN: That I am in fav-

our of a Soviet type system.Mr GRAYDEN:* I did not say that.The SPEAKER: This Is one of those

occasions 'when one member denies thathe made a certain remark. I heard men-tion made of supporting the Soviet formof government. The member for Morleyhas asked for a withdrawal of that offend-ing remark. Will the Minister withdrawthe statement?

Mr GRAYDEN: Mr Speaker, the state-ment I made-

The SPEAKER: Do you wish to makean explanation?

Mr GRAYDEN: Yes, Sir. I said it wouldappear that the member would supportthat type of government, because that isthe alternative. That is a very differentthing.

Sir Charles Court: That is right.The SPEAKER: Order! The Minister

will resume his seat. Under the circuma-stances it would appear that, as the Minis-ter has stated what he said, the remarkdoes not have to be withdrawn.

Debate ResumedMr GRAYDEN: Thank you, Sir. The

member for Morley very deliberately made,reference to the Period another placersatduring the last week.

Mr A. R. Tonkin: It was 22 minutes.Mr GR.AYDEN: The member knows per-

fectly well that there is a reason. Thissession has Just resumed, and the Legis-lative Council Is waiting on legislationfrom this House.

Mr A. R. Tonkin: There is plenty to do.Mr ORAYDEN: That Is the situation,

and the member knows it perfectly well;yet he attempted to distort the position.

Mr O'Connor: Some members oppositemight not have sat for 22 minutes either.

Mr GRAYDEN: The member also saidthat this House does nothing. Let us lookat the legislative record for last yearalone.

Mr B. T. Burke: The fuel and energyBill!I

Mr GRAYDEN: We find that in theLegislative Council 18 Bills were intro-duced-

Mr A. R. Tonkin: How many were re-jected?

Mr GRAYDEN: I will come to that ina moment. in the Legislative Assembly109 Bills were introduced, making a totalof 127 Bills introduced in that year.

Mr A. R. Tonkin: Rubber stamped.Mr GRAYDEN: There was a total of

127 Bills introduced, and the member forMorley talks in terms of this Parliament

being a rubber stamp, Of those 127 Blls,one was discharged In the Legislative As-sembly, only one was defeated in theLegislative Council. two were defeated inthe Legislative Assembly, one lapsed inthe Legislative Council, eight lapsed inthe Legislative Assembly, and 114 passedboth Houses. Yet the member for Morleywould give the impression that this Par-liament does absolutely nothing.

Mr T. H. Jones: Tell us how many hoursthey sat.

Mr GRAYDEN: Perhaps the member forMorley might do some work In his elec-torate, but it is quite obvious he doesnothing in this Parliament.

Mr T. H. Jones: How many hours didthe Council sit as compared with the As-semnbly?

Mr O'Connor: You tell us.Mir T. H. Jones: He Is telling the story.Mr GRAYDEN: I have told the member

exactly how many Emls were introduced.The fact that the Legislative Council maynot be sitting long hours can be attributeddirectly to the Opposition, because theopposition is there to query and debateGovernment legislation.

Mr Bertram: What Is the use of doingthat?

Mr GRAYDEN: if Labor members willnot sit in the Legislative Council and willnot sit in this Chamber and debate Billsat length, they cannot subsequently ac-cuse the Government of not sitting foradditional time. I do not think any mem-ber of this House would complain thatthe Chamber sits for too short a period;the opposite would be the case.

Mr A. R. Tonkin: What about effectivesitting times?

Mr GR.AYDEN: Sometimes we sit until1.00 and 2.00 am., and sometimes we sitthrough the night. Therefore it is arrantnonsense for the member for Morley tospeak in that fashion. He Is certainlynot deceiving anyone in this House.

He did not spend very long dealing withthis motion because he knows he has nofacts on which to justify the introductionof a standing committee on education.Had the member for Morley been ableto show that there is a continuing interestin various aspects of education; had hebeen able to show that members are con-cerned with this matter; and had he beenable to show that members opposite arenot able to obtain adequate informationin respect of various aspects of education,there would be some justification for con-sidering the appointment of a standingcommittee.

However, he would not have been ableto say that because there are no mattersof continuing interest: no matters relatingto education which are of concern or about

1781

1782 ASSEMB3LY]

which members of this House cannot ob-tain adequate information. In those cir-cunmstances, there is simply no justificationfor a standing committee on education.

The member for Morley referred to theFederal Parliament and to the fact thatthat Parliament had a standing committeesystem. But that Parliament is a verydifferent Parliament from ours. For in-stance, there are 127 members in theHouse of Representatives, whereas theLegislative Assembly has only 51 members.

Mr A. Rt. Tonkin: The Senate has 60members, and it has a good committeesystem. Is that number so different from51?

Mr GRAYDEN: 1 do not know what themember for Morley is talking about; I amreferring to the House of Representatives.The Senate contains not 60 members but64 members, while our Legislative Councilcontains only 30 members. Therefore, thetwo Parliaments cannot be compared.

In addition, we must bear in mind thatFederal members are drawn from through-out the Commonwealth. They fly to Can-berra and remain there a relatively shorttime and get out of the place as quicklyas they can in order to return to theirhome States. in those circumstances, inorder to transact the business of theFederal Parliament, it is imperative thatthey have standing committees.

However, that situation does not applyhere because when this House is out ofsession, members can meet within thesubcommittees of their own parties andachieve everything they could achievewithout the necessity to establish a, stand-ing committee on education. I assume thatthe Labor Party Caucus would have sub-committees dealing with most issues, suchas education, agriculture and mining. Ican assure the member for Morley that myparty has established such subcommittees,and I am sure the National Country Partyhas set up similar committees. We have aseries of subcommittees and we certainlyhave a subcommittee on education.

it is my opinion that the Labor Partyis remiss indeed if it simply sends itsmembers to this House and makes no at-tempt within its own ranks to form sub-committees to deal with these importantissues. In addition, members opposite areobviously as remiss out of the Chamberas they are within it. I suggest to mem-bers opposite that if they feel they arehaving difficulty in obtaining informationin respect of education, they should im-mediately form a subcommittee withintheir own party to deal with education,just as other parties have done. This wXIachieve everything the member for Morleywants.

The second point I should like to makeis that there is not a single member ofthis House who has the slightest difficultyin obtaining all the information he or shewishes in respect of education. Members

can ask questions in this House; they canwrite to the Minister for Education; theycan telephone the Minister for Education;they can meet the Minister for Educa-tion in the corridors; they can form depu-tations to visit the Minister; or, they canavail themselves of the research facilitiesat the Parliamentary Library. There isendless scope for them to obtain the In-formation they require In respect of ed-ucation, and it is absolutely nonsensicalfor anyone to suggest this informationIs not readily available. However, Ifthey feel they cannot obtain the informa-tion through all those sources, of whichthey should be aware, I suggest they con-tact me, and I will be happy to obtainthe information for them-because the in-formation certainly is available.

Any member of this Parliament who isdoing his job should know how to obtainsuch information. In these circumstances,how ridiculous it is to talk in terms ofestablishing a standing committee on edu-cation. It has been mentioned that localgovernment authorities commonly estab-lish standing committees. But this is fora very good reason. Councillors are notpaid and most councils meet either fort-nightly or once a month. in the mean-time, the business of the local authoritymust go on and in those circumstancesstanding committees are imperative, whichis why they figure so prominently in localgovernment.

Mr A. R. Tonkin: What about the West-minster system?

Mr GRAYDEN: That is a differentset-up altogether. How could a House con-taining 640 members, as does the Houseof Commons, function without standingcommittees? Surely the member for Morleyis not suggesting we can compare thatsituation with the one which exists inWestern Australia.

I repeat that the member for Morleyhas advanced no good case in support ofhis motion to establish a standing com-mittee on education. The Government hascomplete confidence in the Education De-partment and the Minister for Education.It is confident that every member of Par-liament has access to all the informationhe may require. In those circumstances,I have no alternative but to oppose themotion.

MR SKIDMORE (Swan) [9.37? p.m.]:The Minister for Labour and Industry,who represents the Minister for Educa-tion in this place, took umbrage at themanner in which the member for Morleyapproached the subject of his motion. Heseems to have all sorts of fanciful, funnyand rather ludicrous ideas as to whatreally is meant by a subcommittee of aparticular political party. Far be it for me,after only aL short time in this House,to attempt to tell the Minister he does notunderstand the system.

1782

[Wednesday, 11 August, 1976] 78

However, I am afraid I cannot acceptthe validity of a comparison between partysubcommittees dealing with education orother matters and a proper, standing com-mittee of this House. The Minister madesuch a comparison, and said that the sub-committees could fulfill all the wishes ofthe member for Morley. I believe that tobe a ridiculous statement.

Of course we on this side have a sub-committee on education! We have ashadow Minister for Education who ha acommittee behind him which deals withmatters relating to education. However,we do not believe that is the completeanswer in the field of education or in anyother field, simply because a subcommitteeof an Opposition party holds no legalweight at all.

The Minister's suggestion that mem-bers should enlighten themselves on thesubject of education is a matter which isvery close to my heart, and I should liketo inform members of the ways In whichI have endeavoured to educate myself Inthe field of education as a member of theLegislative Assembly.

For Instance, I refer to the annual con-ference of the Australian Teachers' Fed-eration held in Perth between the 6th andthe 9th January this year. I have alsoendeavoured to educate myself in regardto the thinking of people dealing with thetraining of teachers who were about togo out Into the teaching world to Instructour children. I consider It an honour tohave become a member of the board ofthe College of Advanced Education at mt.Lawley. Further to educate myself in thematter of education, I undertook theresponsibility which was carried out bymy predecessor, Mr Brady, in the field oftechnical education.

The Minister asked whether any mem-ber of this House could show that he hasbeen denied the right to seek Informa-tion. I shall shortly disabuse the Minister'smind: the right has been taken awayfrom me, as a former representative of theMidland Technical School. I intend to asksome searching questions of the Ministerfor Education about that school.

When the Minister makes an obviousattempt to play politics he should rem-ember that he speaks for the Minister forEducation and he aparently does notknow the Minister has denied me theopportunity to assist the Midland Tech-nical School as well as to further my owninterests in the field of education. On Itsown that would be sufficient rounds forme to support the establishment of astanding committee on education.

The Minister has challenged members onthis side of the House to produce evidencethat there is something wrong with theeducation system and to prove that all isnot well. All is not well with the educa-tion system. We have some problems withpre-school education and the Teacher's

Union has appointed a research officer.The document I have in my hand wasprepared by the Education Departmentand is headed, "Evaluation of pre-priniarycentres". I assume that that presents theGovernment's point of view. I wonderwhether in our wisdom we should simplyaccept that as the gospel on pre-schooleducation. I certainly do not. I have readit with some interest but I am not con-vinced that that Is the document I amprepared to accept as the best means ofeducation In this State, particularly inregard to pre-school education.

I seek knowledge and I have not beenable to find it. I am supposed to sit herewhen Bills come before this House toamend the Education Act or any otherlegislation to do with education. I amsupposed to act responsibly towards par-ents and children who are going to beeducated and I am not too certain exactlywhat I ought to be doing.

I have been on a technical school com-mittee and I have been interested in thequestion of teacher training for quite sometime, having personal experience of bring-ing up a son-who is now a member of theteaching fraternity.

The Minister mentioned the House ofRepresentatives. I mention that becauseit is a great pity we cannot have a moreenlightened contribution to the debatefrom the Minister representing an Educa-tion Minister.

Mr A. R.. Tonkin:, If ever we needed aneducated person!

Mr SKIDMORE: If ever we needed aneducated person to put forward the pointof view of a Minister, we certainly do here,because I have never heard such ridiculousnonsense as that which poured out of themouth of the Minister tonight. Of coursethe Minister is aided and abetted by thepresent Mfnister for Agriculture who hasjust started cackling merrily although hedoes not even know what I am going tosay.

Mr Cowan: Do you know what you aregoing to say?

Mr Old: It will be funny, whatever yousay.

Mr SKIDMORE: I certainly know whatI am going to say. I raise the matter ofthe numbers game that the Minister usedin regard to the House of Representatives.He cited all sorts of figures which roughlyequate to this: there are about 50 percent more members In the House of Re-presentatives than In this Assembly andthere are about 50 per cent more senatorsthan Legislative Councillors in this State.Big deal! Full marks! That Is powerfulstuff and we should have more of it. Whatdoes It all mean? In essence the Minister&aid that because those members fly back-wards and forwards to Canberra and stayfor only a few days. they have to havecommittees.

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1784 [ASSEMBLY]

As I understand it, the committees con-sist of members. They are the peoplewho after the Parliament has risen stayback for weekend after weekend and dayafter day to make responsible contribu-tions to the running of this country. F~romwhat the Minister said one would almostsuppose that other people -were going tosit on the committees, that lawyers orsolicitors sat on the committees. Cer-tainly they are called in but basically thecommittees are run by the members. Theyare the Parliament, they are part of thesystem;, they are not divorced from it. Themembers do not leave Canberra and leavethe commitees to operate. The Ministerknows that as well as I do.

If he did not know, he does now becauseI have told him. In answer to the mem-ber for Merredin-Yllgarn, that is what Iwas going to say and I think it is a validpoint. I do not think members can quarrel-with it because that is precisely whattakes place.

When we talk about committees we arenot talking about party committees. Wehave a very good education committee butthat is not the totality of our party'ssearch for knowledge. The Minister saidthat he can always give advice to us ifwe seek answers to questions on education.

I wanted to go a little further than thatand to educate myself with regard to thePartridge report which was a very far-reaching report on where education isheading, particularly in regard to collegesof advanced education, tertiary institutionsand the like. Again for the Minister'sinformation, I bothered to become a dele-gate from the Mt. Lawley College of Ad-vanced Education at a State conferencewhich was held in Bunbury. The themeof the seminar was post-secondary educa-tion in Western Australia and it was runby the Australian College of Education,Western Australian Chapter. There weremany fine speakers on that occasion. Themain speakers were those people who couldobviously make a great contribution onthe question of education. The first ses-sion was introduced by a Dr A. N. Stewartand all other speakers are noted for theirexpertise in education,

What did the seminar achieve? I havespoken about this in this place on a pre-vious occasion. It provoked a great degreeof thinking amongst people who wentthere. No finality arose out of it and therewere no massive recommendations as towhat educators should do, but It wasthought provoking. It allowed each of usto ask ourselves, on analysing the seminar,"What have I achieved In this regard?What have I been provoked into thinkingabout education?"

I might say that I made my small con-tribution. I was always a little hesitant,having achieved only a junior standard ofeducation, of speaking at a seminar whereI was surrounded by people with degreesin all sorts of subjects such as science,

mathematics and economics. With thetemerity of one who felt that If he did notspeak he had failed in the exercise ofattending the seminar, I did say a fewwords which would have taken perhapstwo or three minutes.

Mr Watt;, Did you hold your own?Mr SKIDMORE: I do not know that

I had to hold my own. I do not reallyknow that it was my intention to be ableto out-speak anybody else. I went alongand listened. If the member for Albanybad half as much fortitude as I had tobecome educated he might have gone alongand been educated also, On lookingthrough the attendance list I would imag-ine his name would be notable by itsabsence.

Mr Blaikie interjected.Mr SKIDMORE: The member who has

just interjected is one of those people whois so thoroughly educated that he doesnot wish to enlighten himself about whatis going on in the community!I He wouldbe one of those who would accept that aparliamentary standing committee oneducation has nothing to offer. Thebrains of the honourable member areabout as addled as the scrambled eggsserved to me in the morning. All theinterjections from members opposite indi-cate their complete lack of understandingof the motion before us. Their verybehaviour reveals a degree of irresponsi-bility in respect of education.

it is lamentable that when the Ministergot up to speak an this motion he Saidthat members on the Government sidecould form a valid opinion on educationand that he got inane utterances frommembers on this side. I hope memberswho consider themselves qualified to speakon this subject will look at their contri-butions in Mansard. They should remem-ber that their contributions in the recordwill stand for all time for people to lookat. in fact, their contributions to thisdebate have been as puerile as their othercontributions usually are.

Mr Sibson: The education seminar heldin Bunbury was a very good one.

Mr SKIDMORE: I agree. I was con-cerned about the possibility of the recom-mendations in the Partridge report beingadopted to remove from the teachers' col-leges their autonomy. Under that reportChurchlands and Mt. Lawley are men-tioned, and Graylands is to be Phased out.and a new college Is to be built south ofthe river. I felt It was a great tragedythat the autonomy of the colleges shouldbe challenged after having experiencedsuch a short gestation period along thatline of thinking. This was a rather revol-utionary change In the education scene,designed to give the opportunity to mem-bers of the community to participate Inthe activities of colleges of education.

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(Wednesday, 11 August. 19761 1785

I am not the only one who shares thedisregard for the old system as it oper-ated. It was a narrow-minded, parochialattitude of the educators who had grownup under a system that was insular. Theydid not really grasp the problems Withineducation that the community wanted tohave resolved; I am not talking so muchabout the teachers or educators, but whatthe members of the comomunity wanted.

Some alarm was expresed by the Aus-tralian Teachers' Federation Conference onthe question of education in schools andother institutions. That conference pre-pared 12 recommendations on the questionof community involvement In education.For members who wish to become know-ledgeable of what the Australian Teachers'Federation Conference of 1976 felt aboutthis matter, I suggest they procure fromthe Teachers' Union a copy of The WesternTeacher of Thursday, the 1st April, 1976.It contains an evaluation of pre-schoolcentres. What did the conference sayabout community involvement on the ques-tion of education? In a report in thatPublication the conference made the fol-lowing recommendation-

1. That ATP', recognising that theinvolvement of the community inthe school is best achieved by anevolutionary process which allowsfor differing individual needs tobe catered for, therefore recom-mends to affiliates that they as-sume a leadership role In stimulat-ing moves for community Involve-ment.

I think it is a very good recommendation,and I believe all the people support it.

What does it need to make it reallyeffective? How will we obtain the objec-tivity in the very worth-while Ideals con-tained in the first recommendation? Onecannot achieve that in this Parliament,because the system does not allow us todebate this matter in full. I as a memberhave 45 minutes to speak to the secondreading of a Bill in the House, and in theCommittee stage I am allowed a totalof 40 minutes. Unless I am the leadspeaker in a debate I am limited in myeffort to put forward a point of view thatis valid and that makes sense-one thatwill be readily understood by people out-side. We are not allowed sufficient leaveto be that objective.

Looking at the other questions that havebeen raised, there Is an obvious need for acommittee system to evaluate the 12 re-commendations of the Australian Teachers'Federation. I have quoted only the firstrecommendation which is very far-reach-ing in its intent. There are others. Forinstance, recommendation No. 5 on com-munity involvement is as follows--

5. That ATF recommend to teachersthat, as they assume greater con-trol over the educational Policiesof their schools, they consult more

(61)

closely with parent and commun-itY groups, and seek to involvethem in the formulation of educa-tional policy in an advisory capac-ity.

Again that is very thought provoking. I,as a legislator, consider there Is somethingremiss in education, and we seem to havemissed the boat.

How do we effect a change? We havefollowed the narrow ways of the pastoperating under a system which Is impos-sible to understand. This is set out inthe Education Act. Even the educatorsaxe alarmed at the number of regulationsthat have been formulated. We on thisside of the House say that the educationsystem should be evaluated-a systemwhich contains faults and disadvantages.All the Minister can say to us is. "Youdo not know what you are talking about.It is a system we have operated undereffectively, because as members of Parlia-ment we have been successful.", I saythat if success is what we find In thepresent educational system then heavenhelp us in the future if we are not pre-pared to broaden our horizons on thesubject of education.

The ATF conference expressed the viewthat the professional needs of beginningteachers may be stated as-

1. The need to develop self con-fidence.

2. The need to develop self aware-ness.

3. The need to develop competence.4. The ability to motivate students.5. The ability to develop discipline

among students.6. The ability to maintain staff re-

lationsips.7. The ability to evaluate student

progress.8. The ability to refine curriculum

and to develop syllabus.It also states that beginning teachers areaccepted as professionals by their schoolcolleagues and are an integral part of theirteaching team, etc.

What does it all mean? It means weare facing a very big problem of tryingto understand the existing education sys-tem. In this House where all the oppor-tunity we get is to express our views inthe second reading debate when the Edu-cation Act is being amended we are limited.We do not understand what the Act orthe system Is all about. We are not ableto reach the people.

I have gone out of my way to makemyself knowledgeable on education mat-ters, and my contributions worth whilein this field. I find myself unable toagree that the argument put up by theMinister tonight against the appointmentof a standing committee on education wasreally valid, or conducive to overcoming

(ASSEMBLY]

the existing educational problem. In fact,In kindness to the Minister I would sayhe was ill-prepared for his contributionto the debate and he did not know verymuch about what he should say. All he didwas to attack the member for Morley whomoved the motion, and he attacked himby saying that the member for Morleydenigrated the Westminster system ofgovernment. That was the greatest con-tribution the Minister could make in res-sponse to the motion moved by the mem-ber for Morley.

I find that the matters raised in thePartridge report are of far-reaching im-portance. It is not just a matter of thecolleges of advanced education that areunder consideration; it is also the takingaway of technical education from the edu-cation scene itself. In other words it isproposed that the technical education divi-sion will have its own autonomy free fromcontrol by the Minister for Education.This Is a good thing.

I now come back to the point thatearlier I Maid I would raise concerning afield of endeavour In education which Ibelieve I am pretty well equipped to under-take; that is, the field of technical educa-tion. Mr J. J. Brady, my predecessor formany years, was an exceptional memberon the committee of the Midland Tech-nical School. Without question his con-tribution was tremendous because he gavea considerable amount not only of per-sonal support, but also by way of rewardsto students at the end of terms andcourses. He supplied a perpetual trophyand other trophies as well.

When I became the new member forSwan the Midland Technical School sawfit to appoint me to the committee. Iconceded that it was an honour becauseI had been one of the members who hadattended a meeting when Mr Ward, whowas then with the State Department ofLabour, discussed with the trade unionmovement the establishment of appren-ticeship training. This occurred many yearsago, as the Minister would recall. I wason the council which formulated the earlypolicy for the apprenticeship training. Ithought I could make a contribution tothe technical school not only by helpingthe students with their studies, but alsoin my humble way by imparting some ofthe knowledge I have.

Mr Thompson: When did the technicalschool start?

Mr SKIDMORE: I do not know, butit was a considerable time ago.

What is the present situation with re-gard to the committee? I will not dwellon the subject at this time; I merely raiseIt to indicate to the House. and particul-arly to the Minister, what a legislator wastold when he attempted to make a contri-bution to the technical education scene.

A list was sent to the Minister contain-ing the names of those it was felt wouldmake a worth-while contribution to theadvisory committee of the Midland Tech-nical School for appointment by the Min-ister. A letter was sent by Mr Lynch.the principal of the technical school, tome, and reads as follows--

Dear Mr Skidmnore,The Hon. Minister for Education has

rejected the nominations of Mr J.Skidmore, M.L.A., and the Hon. LylaElliott, MV.L.C., for continued mem-bership of the Midland TechnicalSchool Advisory Committee.

The membership is now as listedon the attached letter from the Direc-tor of Technical Education.

My whole life has been dedicated to thetechnical scene in an endeavour to assistapprentices and others in the technicalworld in order that they might be ableto obtain a good job. My dedication wouldbe difficult to better, but I was brutallyremoved from the committee simply be-cause the Minister for Education and Ifell out over an issue concerning a personin Husselton. it was purely a politicalmove. I was held to ransom because I hadraised an issue which was substantiallytruthful. Yet the Minister says that wedo not know what we are talking about.

The question I raise on this issue issimplicity itself. I am unable to acceptthe Minister's advice that as a legislatorI am able to obtain the assistance andguidance of the Minister for Education.

Mr Grayden: You have all the facilitiesthese days to obtain information. A fewyears ago You had no offices. Now youhave an office and a research centre andyou can get all the information you need.You do not need the services of a stand-ing committee. Once upon a time, yes;but not now.

Mr SKIDMORE: I accept what the Min-ister has said. I do not quarrel with it.I do have the facilities, and I use them.I obtain the assistance of the researchofficer quite often. What I am saying isthat the Minister said because we arelegislators we should become knowledge-able and assist education. I endeavourto do Just that and, for my pains, I getmy neck chopped off. I am not allowedto be a member of the committee. TheMinister said that I do not play my part.

Let us be fair dinkum. The step takento remove me from the committee waspurely a political stunt. To give furtherproof of my statement, let me remindmembers that Provision is made for 15members on the committee and the sug-gested list of nominees contained no morethan 15 names, and Included those ofMiss Elliott and myself.

However the committee at present com-prises only 10 members, one of whom isthe member for Mundlaring but not myselfor Miss Elliott.

[Wednesday, 11 August, 1976]

Mr Orayden: Why were you appointedIn the first place?

Mr SKIDMORE: In answer to that QueryI would say that I like to believe thatthe committee felt I could make a con-tribution to it on several counts. I wasasked about the situation and I said . Ibelieved I could help. I am a licensedelectrician with the necessary SEC licenceas a fitter and installer. I have been con-cerned with the apprenticeship scene for15 years in the trade union movement. Ihave been on four boards which dealt withapprenticeships in a wide field of endeav-our; that is, pastry cooking, baking, elec-trical fitting, and electrical installing. Ibelieve that in these circumstances I havethe knowledge to enable me to make aworth-while contribution. I was interestedin the establishment of a separate councilto run the affairs of apprentices, Sucha council was established a few years agoand my name is included among those whosubmitted their proposals.

With all humility I1 would suggest thatthese were the reasons the committee feltI could assist in some way in the educa-tion of these people. I am quite sure thatMr Lynch and others would have beenaware of the situation.

Is it not passing strange that whenI was appointed to the committee, the,appointment was approved by the Min-ister for Education at that time, and Ido not think there has been a change ofMinister since that time? Consequently Iam somewhat surprised that I have notbeen accepted on this occasion.

Mr Grayden: You do not know the rea-son You were not reappointed?

Mr SKIDMORE: That raises an issueI will take up with the Minister at anothertime. I will not delve into it now becausethat concerns a different matter al-together.

In the short time available to me I cansay with a degree of surety that the gym-nastic verbosity-if I can put it that way-of the Minister representing the ministerfor Education is similar to that of theclown who dances in the Circus ring. TheMinister displayed his usual performancein such a manner as to suggest that hehas a great comradeship with us and isreally concerned, but all the time he issaying nothing whatever about the issuebefore the House. He is a Past master atthis sort of behaviour.

Tonight's example was a classic and hiscontribution should go down as a remark-able performance of a, Minister Sayingnothing in a short time, but denigrating alegislator who has sought to make a worth-while contribution to education in thisState.

I simply conclude by saying that in fair-ness to the education system and to thosemnembers of Parliament who take an in-terest in the education scheme we shouldhave a standing committee. It would bea wonderful contribution that we In the

27th Parliament Could make to the educa-tion scene in Western Australia. I there-fore commend the motion to the House.

MRt HARMAN (Maylands) [ 10.10 pm.]:I enter this debate to illustrate the absolutehypocrisy again displayed by the Ministerfor Labour and Industry-who is also themember for South Perth. He displayedthe same attitude last week during anotherdebate and tonight we have seen the samesort of hypocrisy and humbug to whichwe are becoming accustomed in this House.The attitude of the Minister absolutelyastounds me and other members in thisplace.

The whole of the argument presentedby the Minister for Labour and Industrytonight was that it was not necessary tohave any sort of standing committee oneducation because members were able tofind out what was happening for them-selves. if members wanted to organisepolitical standing committees associatedwith their own parties they could do soand find out exactly what was happening.

I want to refer back to 1957 when themember for South Perth moved for theappointment of a Select Committee inorder to obtain some information.

Mr Grayden: Goodness gracious me.Mr HARMAN: He wanted to find out

what was happening to the Aborigines inWestern Australia.

Mr Grayden: Go back 20 years to ascer-tain that!

Mr HARMAN: What has changed in 20years?

Mr Grayden: You are talking about theappointment of a standing committee, nota Select Committee.

Mr HARMAN: In 1957 the member forSouth Perth moved for the appointmentof a Select Committee to inquire Into theplight of Aborigines in Western Australia.

Sir Charles Court: It was a once onlyinquiry; it was not a standing committee.

Mr H ARMAN: There have been manyinquiries since then.

Sir Charles Court: It was not a standingcommittee.

Mr HARMAN: it means the same thing.Sir Charles Court: That does not be-

come you.Mr HARMAN- What is the difference

between the two types of committee?Sir Charles Court: A standing committee

continues all the time.Mr HARMAN: And a Select Committee?Sir Charles Court: A Select Committee

deals with a specific subject and thenreports to Parliament.

Mr HARMAN: Would the Premier beIn favour of a Select Committee or analternative?

1788 [ASSEMBLY]

Sir Charles Court: It would depend onthe reason for its appointment.

Mr HARMAN: The Premier has neversupported any motion put forward by theopposition since I have been in this Par-liament.

Sir Charles Crurt: You want to becareful and not go back over a period of23 years.

Mr HARMAN: I know where the Pre-mier stands. He does not want membersof Parliament inquiring into the activitiesof this Government.

Sir Charles Court: It does not worryme at all; I do not want to see peoplewasting their time.

Mr HARMAN: The Premier would likethe people not to be Informed.

Sir Charles Court: Whose fault is that?Mr HARMAN. It is the fault of the

Premier.Sir Charles Court: Do you want me to

hold classes on Saturday mornings?Mr HARMAN: The Liberal Party in Vic-

toria has standing committees on at leastsix facets of Government administrationIn that State.

Sir Charles Court: Perhaps we shouldhave school classes on Mondays and Fri-days!

Mr HARMAN: The Premier does notwant the members of this Parliament toform a committee to inquire Into adminis-trative matters. However, I do not wantto be sidetracked.

The second point raised by the Ministerfor Labour and Industry tonight was thathe believed members of Parliament couldform themselves into committees withintheir own political parties and make ap-propriate inquiries. I want to quote whatthe member for South Perth said in 1957about that sort of approach. On the 23rdOctober, 1957, at page 2473 of Hansardthe member for South Perth is reportedas say ing-

Members of political parties will nothave the task of estimating what isrequired, because they are alwayspolitically suspect, no matter whatthey do.

Mr Grayden: Goodness gracious me.Mr HARMtAN: The Minister has argued

tonight that standing committees withinpolitical parties should be able to makeany necessary Investigations, but in 1957he said that inquiries made by politicalparties would always be suspect.

Mr Grayden: In certain instances thatwould be the case.

Mr HARMAN: That would apply now.If we set up a committee within a politicalparty, to make inquiries, that would beinterpreted as being suspect.

Mr Grayden: Any decision arrived atcould be put to the House for its approval.

Mr HARMAN: It would be a far betterproposition to have a standing committeecomprising representatives of the politicalparties in this Chamber. We have hadsome very good examples of parliamentarySelect Committees and I refer particularlyto one which inquired into hire-purchaselegislation in this State some years ago.That committee comprised members ofParliament from both sides of this Houseand it brought forward a number of re-commendations which were presented tothe Government. The Tonkin Labor Gov-ernment acted upon those recommenda-tions very soon after receiving the reportof the Select Committee.

Mr May: We also had a very good beefcommittee'i

Mr HARMAN: As a result of the com-mittee which inquired into hire purchasewe were able to make a number of changesto our consumer credit legislation wellahead of similar changes still being con-templated by the other States. That wasas the result of the work of a Select Corn-mnittee.

The objective of a standing committeeis that the members of Parliament com-prising it would meet regularly and wouldbe able to take evidence from depart-mental officers, people within the com-munity, and people with particular pro-positions which they wanted to place be-fore the Government. A committee wouldbe able to examine such representationsand make recommendations to the Gov-erment. To me, that represents somesort of participation by all the people inthe community.

Mr A. R. To nkin:. Hear, hear!Mr HARMAN: The appointment of

standing committees would mean thatinstead of the Government dictating to thepeople, as the present Government does,the people would have an opportunity topresent their points of view. That op~por-tunity should be extended to the peoplein any democracy-which we do not seemto have at present. The opportunity forthe people to present their views is notavailable at the present time in this Statedespite the fact that in some of the moreenlightened States of Australia-and cer-tainly in the States of Canada-there arestanding committees which enable thepeople to participate in the decision-making process. However, that principleis absolutely abhorrent to the LiberalParty in this State and the Liberal Partyof Australia.

The Minister for Labour and Industryhas said that the Government does notwant to have anything to do with parlia-mentary standing committees. He said theGovernment does not want people to beinvolved in government, and have an

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[Wednesday, 11 August, 1976] 78

opportunity to Put their points of view toparliamentary standing committees. Hebelieves the Governmment is doing every-thing possible and should not be subjectedto any sort of criticism or have to acceptany other point of view.

The Minister for Labour and Industryreally made the position clear tonight. In1957 he moved for the appointment of aSelect Committee which is really the sameas a standing committee. The principleis the same. People are provided withan opportunity to come forward and pre-sent their points of view to a parliament-ary committee. He argued for theappointment of a committee in 1957because he believed then that committeeswithin political parties would not be seento be real committees without bias in thereports they brought down.

Mr Grayden: You do not understand thedifference between a Select Committee anda standing committee.

Mr HARMAN: We have previously seenexamples of the hypocrisy of the Ministerfor Labour and Industry. We have seenthem again tonight and I am sure we willsee them again in the future.

MR MOILER (Mundaring) [10.20 p.m.]:In the policy presented by the Premierprior to the last election he said-

Education Is the constitutionalresponsibility of the State Govern-ment.

I assume the State Government includesall the members sitting on the backbenches on the Government side of theHouse; not only the Premier and the 11yes-men with whom he has surroundedhimself, but every member on the Govern-ment side of the House. If, as in everysession of this Parliament, they continueto sit there dumbly, accepting what thePremier is prepared to give them-

Mr Thompson: How many speeches didyou make between 1971 and 1974?

Mr A. R. Tonkin: Many more than youhave made during this Parliament,

Mr May: And on his feet, too.Mr MOILER: I have not made so many

speeches on this side of the House as thehonourable member who has interjectedMade when he Was on this side of theHouse. He made many speeches and manyobviously ridiculous statements at thattime, but since he has been on the Gov-ernment benches he has become com-pletely dumb.

Mr A. R. Tonkin: In the last Parlia-ment the member for Mundaring was amember of such a committee.

Mr MOILER: During the term of theTonkin Government I was a member ofa committee formed by that Governmentto study the possibility of establishingstanding committees for this Parliament,and the committee's majority decision to

establish standing commnittees was sup-ported by all members of the Governmentat that time. It was members of theOpposition whose minority vote wasagainst the establishment of such com-mittees.

Mr Stephens: Had the Governmentmade a decision on it?

Mr A. R. Tonkin: It was presented twomonths before the Parliament rose. Comeup with something better than that. Andthat Parliament sat longer hours thanthis Parliament does.

Mr MOILER: The only contributionmembers on the back benches on the Gov-ernment side are allowed to make in thisParliament is by way of interjection,They are not allowed to stand up andmake a contribution to a debate.

Mr A. R. Tonkin: All they do is snipe,Mr MOILER: Their very muteness and

silence makes the Premier look what heis.

Mr Sibson: A great man.Mr MOILER: It is the very people of

his party surrounding the Premier whomake him look what he is.

Mr Blaikie: We have all been elevated.

Mr MOILER: The motion moved bythe member for Morley calls for the estab-lishment of a standing committee on edu-cation, not only to help us strive for abetter educational system in the Statebut also in order that members of Par-liament may be better Informed and mayensure that education for the benefit ofstudents throughout the State is beingachieved in the best possible way with-out any political influence being broughtto bear on the decisions of the departmentfor political purposes only, In the hopeof benefiting in some way the party whichis in Government.

I will give an illustration of the state-ments which are being made by the in-ister for Education-not the Minister inthis place who tries to cover for theactions of the Minister for Education.Some 12 months ago when attending theEastern Hills High School the Ministerfor Education made the statement thatthe facilities there were very much betterthan the facilities which existed when hewas going to school and for that reasonthey must be acceptable. That is an ex-ample of the mentality of the gentlemanthis Government has appointed as Minis-ter for Education; a man who is a laugh-ing stock among the education fraternity.

Mr Grayden: The contrary is the case,of course. He is extraordinarily highlyregarded throughout the education system.

Mr May:, Another case of hypocrisy.Mr MOILER: He Is recognised un-

doubtedly as having a thick hide and athick head.

1789

1790 ASSEMBLY]

Mr Nanovich: Have you ever spoken tohim personally and told him that?

Mr MOILER: Not only have I told himbut I have also put it in writing that Ibelieve he would sink to the very depthsfor Political Purposes, to the detriment ofchildren attending schools in this State.

Mr A. R. Tonkin: It is a disgrace anda shame.

Mr MOILER: I have here a DarlingtonP & C Association parent newsletter datedthe 9th August, 1976, which demonstratesthe Political influence which the presentMinister can bring to bear on a schoolPolicy. Children from the DarllngtonSchool at present attend the Eastern Hills;High School, which was upgraded to afive-year high school two years ago for thesole purpose, as announced by the Min-ister, of obviating the necessity to goahead with the development of the SwanView High School. The newsletter from theDarlington P & C Association reads--

High School Intake:A news item in last Thursday's

'Darling Advertiser' stated thatchildren from Darlington, Glen Forrestand Helena Valley areas will now beallowed to attend the new Swan ViewHigh School.

That high school is being developed somethree years later than a Labor Govern-ment would have developed it. The news-letter goes on-

A letter has subsequently beenreceived from Mr. Gordon Masters,M.L.C. regarding the matter. The textof this letter reads:

"Parents of children attending theDarlington Primary School and GlenForrest Primary School have ap-proached me expressing concern thatPupils ex Year 7 would not be able toattend the new Swan View HighSchool upon its completion, and wouldhave to travel long distances to theEastern Hills High School.

Incidentally, they have been doing thatfor 15 years or more.

Mr Thompson: And incidentally, yousaid it was unfair for them to have to goto Swan View.

Mr MOILER: If I should attempt tosit down before I clarify that point. Ihope the honourable member will remindme of it. I will explain where I stand, andmy explanation will serve only to show thedegrading depths to which the honourablemember and the Minister will go forpolitical purposes, while disregarding theinterests of school children.

Mr May: You might get him up on hisfeet.

Mr MOILER: Not before he checks withthe Premier first. I am sure of that.

This is the paragraph I would like mem-bers to take note of, and I point out thatthe "I" referred to Is Mr Masters. Itreads--

I made representation to the Minis-ter for Education, the Hon. 0. C.MacKinnon, MLC, who has advisedthat the decision has been taken thatPupils ex Year 7 from your school-

I interpolate here to say that "your school"refers to the Darlington Primary School.The paragraph continues-

-will be directed to attend SwanView High School from 1977.

This decision was made on nothing morethan the approach of the member forKalarnunda and the' member for WestProvince who expressed the view of anabsolute minority of the people living inthe area.

Mr Thompson: You should have checkedthe outcome of that survey before youstarted bleating.

Mr MOILER: That is quite all right. Onthe approach of these two members ofParliament, the Minister, without check-Ing with the WA Council of State SchoolOrganisations-reiresenting all parentsand citizens' associations-and withoutany reference to the parents and citizens'associations of the area, made a decisionand instructed his department that child-ren from Glen Forrest and Darlingtonwere to be directed to the Swan View HighSchool.

Mr May: Shame!Mr SPEAKER: Will the member relate

this to the motion?Mr MOILER: Yes, Mr Speaker. I intend

to relate this to the motion because Ibelieve a standing committee would studysuch matters and Ministers would not beprepared to take action detrimental to thewish of the department.

Mr Thompson: The committee would beset up to decide where the boundariesshould go between high schools.

Mr Davies: What about making yourspeech later?

Mr MOILER: The Minister would thenact responsibly. I suggest that if we hada standing committee on education, itwould be an influence to prevent futureGovernments from using, for political pur-poses, students and schools to the detri-ment of the children.

In his policy speech the Premier usedthe phrase. "community Involvement inthe development of schools.' The presentMinister for Education has used thisphrase also. Where was the communityinvolvement in the issue I have just raised?No community group advised the memberfor Kalamunda or the member for WestProvince that it would be better for thechildren from Darlingtofl and Glen For-rest to go to the Swan View High SchoolThe Minister did not seek the view of

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the community. He did not circularise theparents and say, "Where would you likeyour children to go?"

There was no community involvementin the establishment of the Swan ViewHigh School which these children will beattending and to which the Minister isdirecting them. Once the school is builtthe community will be told that, with theagreement of the headmaster or principalof the school, they will be allowed to usecertain facilities. However, this has beenthe case for many Years. The parentswere not asked about the facilities theythought should be provided In the area.This is another instance of the Premierand his Ministers uttering phrases whichsound very nice but on which we neversee any action.

I believe a standing committee on edu-cation would be an excellent move. Sucha committee could study the area of con-flict which has arisen In regard to Pre-primary and pre-school centres.

Mr A. R. Tonkin: They would not wantthat!

Mr MOILER: Why should it be thatthe parcnts of children attending pre-school centres where they have directcontact and direct influence on policy arerequired to pay fees whereas the parentswho have accepted the bribe put up by thisGovernment of free pre-primnary educationare not required to pay fees? I think acommittee could look at this matter to seewhether there is any good reason for theParents of a five-year-old child attendinga pro-school Centre to have to pay teeswhile the parents of a child attending apre-primary centre need not.

Mr Rushton: You should understandthat position without having a committee.Surely you can understand that situation.

Mr MOILER: No I cannot. Can theMinister explain to me why his Govern-ment Is continuing such a situation?

Mr Rushton: You can read-surely youcan understand it.

Mr Thompson: You speech could influ-ence a vote against the proposition.

Mr MOILER: I hope at election timethese two interiectors will come forwardand explain to the parents of all childrenattending pre-schools why it is that be-cause parents wish to retain some Involve-ment in the education of their childrenthey should be penalised by having to paya fee.

Finally, I would like to add some re-marks to those made by the member forSwan in his very understandable outburstagainst the Minister. The member forSwan and the member for the North-EastMetropolitan Province were removed fromthe Midland Technical School Committee.This was a shocking act. Over the pastthree or four years that I have been amember of It I would say the committeemeets on an average of three times a year.It has done a remarkably good Job for

the school concerned, and I think themembers to whom I have referred haveattended at those meetings as frequentlyas any other members of the committee.Since he was appointed, and to the best)f my knowledge, the member for Swanhas attended every meeting: and I thinkthe obvious reason for his dismissal from'the committee Is that he is a member ofthe Opposition party in this Parliament.

As he has stated, the school is entitledto a committee of 15 members. The com-mittee is now composed of fewer than 15members and It does not appear that thereare other people capable and willing toserve the community in the way the hon-ourable member has done. However, theMinister saw fit to remove both Labormembers of Parliament from the com-mittee. As I have said before and I willsay again, this demonstrates the depths towhich this Minister will sink.

Mr Watt: Did You say you were on Ittoo?

Mr MOILER: I am on it,Mr Watt: Did they leave you on it?Mr MOILER: Yes, and I cannot imagine

why.Mr Watt: Does not that defeat Your

argument that the Minister wanted to getrid of Labor politicians?

Mr Skidmore: That was not the reasonhe got rid of me-it was one of the rea-sons. The minister happens to bate myguts.

The SPEAKER: Order! The member forMundaring.

Mr MOILER: Possibly the Minister con-siders I am the most ineffective member ofthe Committee. Whether or not that isthe case does not particularly perturb me,because whilst the Minister may not havea great impression of me. I can assurehim the feeling is mutual.

Mr Jamieson: The Minister thought begot rid of the only woman on the com-mittee, but he didn't know the councillorhappened to be a woman. He addressedaL letter to her as "Mr So-and-so"; thatis all he knew about it.

Mr MOILER: That Is entirely right. ThePoint is that there was no need to removethe two members. The committee senta list of recommended members to theMinister, and the Minister removed twomembers even though the number allowedunder the Act had not been met.

Those are Just a few of the points astanding committee could study, along withhundreds of other issues that arise in thematter of education. Along with the Pre-mier, I believe that education is the con-stitutional right of everyone. We shouldensure that every child has the opportunityto avail himself of the greatest amount ofeducation possible. Educational oppor-tunities should not depend on whetherthe child happens to live in a Labor or aLiberal-held electorate.

1792 ASSEMBLY]

It has been demonstrated time and timeagain during the term of the presentGovernment that the Minister for Educa-tion is prepared to disregard the best in-terests of children for political purposes.He will stoop to any depth. if a standingcommittee Is appointed I believe it will re-strict considerably the steps the Ministermight otherwise venture to take in suchmatters. I certainly hope members op-posite will support this motion, becausewhilst they are In Governent at themoment they will not be there for long,and such a standing committee would becontinued when Labor takes office in thenear future.

Mr Shalders: Hope springs eternal.Mr MOILER: Then members opposite

would be able to have access to more In-formation on education, and would be ableto be more deeply involved than they areat the moment.

Mr Thompson: Before you sit down, tellus how the Eastern Hills High School hassuddenly moved closer to Darlington thanit was previously.

Mr MOIL.ER: Thank you; I will. Firstlet me relate the history of this mattersince the Minister took office. Just priorto this Government taking office theTonkin Government decided that the SwanView Senior High School would be estab-lished in the following year. it calledtenders, and spent $30 000 on plans andspecifications for the school. Swan ViewSenior High School was being establishedbecause of the gross overcrowding at Gov-ernor Stirling Senior High School. Imme-diately the present Government came tooffice moves were made to defer the SwanView Senior High School and to developinstead the Forrestfield High School, whichis in the electorate of the member forKalamunda..

Mr Thompson: They were to be con-structed simultaneously.

Mr MOILER: That is right.Mr Thompson: But tenders were about

50 per cent higher than was estimated.Mr MOILER: The member is completely

right.The SPEAKER: Order!1 Will the member

resume his seat. I am inclined to thinkthat the question asked by the memberfor Kalamunda, which is being replied toby the member for Mundaring, tends tolead away from the central core of themotion before the House. I was not quickenough to pick up the interjection of themember for Kalamunda. I ask the memberfor Mundaring, in his reply to that inter-jection, to try to be brief and, if possible.to relate it to the subject before us.

Mr MOILER: Thank you, Sir; I willendeavour to be brief and to relate it tothe motion. I believe what has occurred-and what the Minister now proposes--would not have occurred if there had

been a standing committee on education.The Eastern HilLs High School used to bea three-year high school, but It was up-graded to senior status by adding fourthand fifth Years. Before that fourth andfifth-year students went to GovernorStirling.

The year in which the Eastern HillsHigh School was extended to a, fourth-yearhigh school was the year in which theForrestfield High School went ahead andthe Swan View Senior High School wasdeferred. In that year an additional 60children would have had to attend Gov-ernor Stirling Senior High School, whichcould not accommodate them; so the SwanView Senior High School would have hadto be established. However, In order thatthe balance could be weighted in favourof Forreatfield High School-in a Liberalelectorate-the Eastern Hills High Schoolwas, in name, upgraded to a senior highschool. It was called a senior high schooland 50 children remained there with noadditional facilities rather than attendGovernor Stirling High School and createfurther overcrowding. Eastern Hills wascalled a senior high school so that Gov-ernor Stirling would not have to accom-modate those children, and so that For-restfield could go ahead while Swan Viewwas deferred.

Swan View has now been established. Forhis own expediency, the Minister has de-cided that the children who were com-pelled to attend Eastern Hills in previousyears can now go to Swan View, so theEastern Hills High School can now bedowngraded.

Mr Thompson: Who said that?Mr MOILER: It will be downgraded.Mr Thompson: How was that worked

out?Mr MOILER: Mr Speaker. I appreciate

your Position, and I adyise I will be happyto continue this discussion in the grievancedebate next Wednesday.

MIR DAVIES (Victoria Park) (10.49p.m.): I do not exactly share the view ofthe member who has just resumed hisseat in relation to the Minister for Educa-tion; nor do I share the views generallyexpressed by the Minister for Labour andIndustry in this Hiouse. However, it isfairly apparent to me that both the mem-ber for Mundaring and the Minister forLabour and industry have scant regardfor the opinions of the Minister for Edu-cation.

My reason for saying that is this: themember for Morley moved a very succinctmotion. He took only about 20 minutesto enunciate clearly the very valid rea-sons that we should have the committeesystem operating in this House far merethan It operates at the moment. He wasalso at pain to support the system whichoperates at Westminster and In othercountries.

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[Wednesday, 11 August, 1976] 1793

I am sure the Premier must be glad tohave the Minister for Labour and In-dustry on his team, because he can saythe most outrageous things and havePeople believe them. Unless someone isable to stand and object, as was the caseon this occasion tonight, usually we findthat the Minister is quoted in the nextmorning's newspaper, and somethingwhich is not entirely true has been statedas a fact, and is believed to be a factbecause It has come out of the mouth ofthe Minister.

Mr Grayden: That is absolute nonsense.It is a straightout lie, and you know it.

Withfdraw~al of remark

The SPEAKER: Order! I ask the Min-ister to withdraw the word "lie".

Mr GRAYDEN: I am happy to with-draw, Mr Speaker, but I would ask themember to withdraw his remark.

The SPEAKER: Order! I just wish theMinister to withdraw his remark. I haveruled that the word "lie" is unparliament-ary, and it must be withdrawn, no matterwho says it.

Mr GRAYDEN: I withdraw, but it is astraightout untruth.

Debate ResumedMr DAVIES: Mr Speaker, if I had used

the word "lie" I would have withdrawn it.I must admit that I could not hear theinterjection for the speaker-that Is, my-self. The point I was making is that ap-parently both the Minister for Labour andIndustry and the member for Mundaringhave the same opinion of the Minister forEducation. The Minister for Labour andIndustry did not do the Minister for Edu-cation the courtesy of referring to him thecontent of the motion moved by the mem-ber for Morley. That would have beenthe kindest thing for him to do.

Mr Speaker, on occasions you have saidthat we cannot ask questions of Ministersrepresenting Ministers in this House be-cause they do not have the knowledge attheir fingertips and it is not fair for usto suppose that they can reply to questionsbecause they are only acting in this place.

But that is exactly what has happenedtonight. The Minister for Labour and In-dustry stood in his place and, probablywith the full approbation of the Govern-ment-so far, he Is the only speaker fromthe Government side-he said, "We arenot interested in a standing committee oneducation." So, he Is only treating theMinister for Education as a complete fool,as apparently does the member for Mun-daring, if he Is not prepared to take thecase to him and say, "Will you pleasecomment or, If you do not wish to com-mnent, will you please get one of your de-partmental officers to comment?" Such

an action is an affront to this House andto the way the Parliament is supposed tooperate.

I believe that even at this stage, theGovernment should seek to adjourn thedebate and take the facts which have beenso succinctly and excellently put beforethe House by the member for Morley tothe Minister for Education to obtain hisviews. Then, let us have a Minister inthis Place who is prepared to deal withfact, and not with Pure fiction as hasbeen the disgraceful exhibition once againin this House tonight on the part of theMinister for Labour and industry.

There are very good reasons that weshould establish a standing committee oneducation, and I do not intend to pursuethem all; at this late hour, I am suremembers know them as well as I. Ofcourse, whether or not one acknowledgesthose reasons depends on which side ofthe House one is sitting. I believe it be-hoves us to ensure that the work we doon behalf of the people of Western Aus-tralia is examined as far as It is humanlypossible to do so. However, it Is very dif-ficult in many instances to make such anexamination. The member for Mundaringrelated a particular case only a few mo-ments ago. The Minister for Labour andIndustry says that it is quite easy to ob-tain any information one wants from thedepartment or the Government, at anytime.

Let me quote a case in point whichmakes a mockery of this statement. Sinceabout the end of 1972, there has been amove to sell the East Victoria Park Pri-mary School site to a project developer.I have asked a series of questions on thematter which are contained in Hansardfor those members who wish to read them.I have written to the Government. Infact, I wrote letters on this subject whenI was a Minister, and I received repliesas to what was happening.

Mr Rushton: You should have knownall about it. You were the one who heldit up.

Mr DAVIES: Since the change of Gov-ernment, I have continued to seek Infor-mation on the project, and have been toldthat the matter "has been shelved for thetime being", is "being examined", and is"being looked at". However, I can neverfind out whether It is really the Intentionof the Government to go on with the pro-posal.

Quite recently, the site was sold for aconsiderable sum. There was a greatflurry of excitement, with people rnningabout everywhere. Rumors were rife. InJune, I wrote to the Minister for Educa-tion to ascertain the position. More ru-mours came to me, so I telephoned theMinister, but he was not available. I tele-phoned him again, but he was in thecountry.

1794 ASSEMBLY]

i thought I would try his secretary, buthe 'was not available because he was tak-ing the day off. I left a message and fin-ally a reply came back to me that thematter "was under consideration"! Thatis something I have been told severaltimes since the end of 1972. 1 knew thesite had been sold, I knew who had pur-chased It, and I knew the purchase price,but no-one would tell me. Were theynot game to tell me, or did they not knowwhat was going on?

The Minister for Labour and Industrysays that we often see the Minister forEducation walking around the corridors ofthis place. I ran into the Minister in thecorridors recently. He was just movinginto his tomato soup, and I had finishedmine. I asked the Minister what he knewabout the matter, and whether the sitehad been sold and he said, "Yes-no-Iam not sure-I think so-yes"!

Mr Rusbton: It is a fine thing for youto talk In this manner. You were the Min-ister who delayed the proposal.

Mr Grayden: That Is your story.Mr DAVIES: That is exactly what I

said. The Minister for Urban Developmentand Town Planning is getting all upset;his hair is turning greyer and his faceis getting whiter. Mr Speaker. I can seethat you are getting quite edgy about thecourse the debate is taking so I will ignorefurther interjections because even they arenot factual.

I finally established that afternoon thatthe site had been sold but that the PublicWorks Department had not signed thecontract. After something like three yearsof trying to find out what was going on,I still had to go to tbe back door to getthe answers to my questions. And eventhen, there was a second letter waiting inthe Minister's office for reply.

That is the kind of situation whicharises and 'which we are up against: it isone of the very minor circumstances whichwe would like to avoid. The House shouldknow just what is going on in the variousfields. We have a Public Accounts Com-mittee, which has done some very excellentwork, although I have not seen any re-ports from it lately.

Mr Grayden: Most members know whatis going on; if you do not, that is yourfault,

Mr Rushton: This is lovely to hear: youwere the Minister responsible.

Mr DAVIES: I have just indicated tothe Minister how I endeavoured to obtainthe answers to my questions. Once again,I hear the stuck record of the Minister forflrban Development and Town Planning.The Minister is giggling like the younggirl he sometimes gives one the impressionof being, and If he wants to go on In thismanner, we will be glad to debate thismatter at any time, and place the files onthe Table of the House.

The fact remains that I have quoted aspecific case where I had the greatest diffi-culty in obtaining answers. Time waswasted when it need not have been, becausethe Government did not want to releasethe information, probably because it didnot want a row on its hands from theparents of students at the East VictoriaPark Primary School. It was only alterthe matter was a fait accompli that ameeting was called with the parents toinform them of something they shouldhave known long before.

I took all steps possible and open to meto find the answers to my questions. Iasked the Minister for Labour and Indus-try, I asked the Minister for Education,and I wrote to the Minister for Education.I cannot do very much more than that.One would have expected some kind ofresponse.

As I said, the Public Accounts Committeehas done some excellent work and thereis no reason that a standing committee oneducation or even on other matters suchas health, or the environment should notwork very effectively. There are peoplewho are prepared to work on these com-mittees and investigate the various aspectsthat are worrying them.

Does the Goverrnent believe in sharingits responsibilities? I believe it does onlywhen it suits it. For example, within theprimary and secondary schools the Gov-ernment now is encouraging the estab-lishment of committees to deal with therunning of the schools. Probably, this isa policy of divide and conquer. When thereare a lot of little committees everywhere.the Government does not have to worrytoo much about them getting together andbeing a force.

A standing committee on educationcould tell the Government when It thoughtit was doing something wrong; and this isall we want it to do. We could refer tothe committee anything about which weare worried or about which we cannot getinformation. This Is exactly 'what happenswith regard to the Public Accounts Com-mittee. We can refer a matter to It and thecommittee can decide whether it will in-vestigate it. If the committee does not de-cide to investigate, the matter can bebrought back and we can find out thereasons for the committee's decision.

This matter concerns only the distribu-tion of information. We do not want todictate to such committees. We do notwant to do any more than educate our-selves. We know that the Government isafraid to establish these committees be-cause there might be too many searchinginquiries.

It Is true that some members might findit difficult to sit on committees. No-onewill be forced to take a seat on such a com-mittee. Anyone who was on the committeeWould have to cut down the number ofconsulting hours spent in the office, but

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MTursday. 12 August. 19761 1795

the fact remains that there are peoplewho are Interested enough and 'who arePrepared to do it, especially when theyhave a speciallsed knowledge of andinterest in a particular subject. Are we notentitled to that? That is all I am asking.

I congratulate the member for Morleyon the way he introduced the motion. TheMinister for Labour and Industry deridedhim for not taking long enough to do It.The same man has derided the memberfor Morley because he has taken too longto introduce a motion. There was not awasted word in this House until the M~in-ister for Labour and Industry spoke. Icongratulate and support the member forMorley.

Debate adjourned, on motion by MrCarr.

House adjourned at 11.02 p.m.

£'rtiiatint Aiii'mbtijThursday, the 12th August, 1976

The SPEAKER (Mr Hutchinson) tookthe Chair at 2.15 p.m.. and read prayers.

QUESTIONS ON NOTICEPostponement

THE SrEAKER (Mr Hutchinson): Forthe information of the House I have toadvise that questions will be taken at alater stage of the sitting.

BILLS (3):F IRS

1. Forests ActBill inltro

Ridge r(read a'

2SettemeBill intro

O'Neil (read a firs

3. Long ServiBill.

Bill intrioduHarmian. ad

CQION AND

ation, by Mr

6#s), and

B~ifll.'Oil by Mr

orks), and

meridment

otion by Mrafirst time.

NVETERINARY V6AATIONS AND

ANIMAL FEE~ TF BL

Secot4'eadfriMR OLD (Katanpting-Minister for

Agriculture) E2.24 p~m.i: I, move-That the Bill be now read a second

time.Since 1953, all veterinary medicines avail-able for open sale to the general publichave had to be registered under theprovisions of the Veterinary Medicines Act.This Act lays down conditions governingthe registration of such products in respect

of labelling, conformation to stated for-mulation, sale, description, and storage.The Act also provides for an advisory com-mittee to consider the acceptability of pro-ducts for which registration is sought.

The registration of feeding stuffs forsale as stock food under the provisions ofthe Feeding Stuffs Act dates back to 1928.This Act enables standards to be set inrelation to the composition of stock foodsoffered for sale, and Jays down require-ments for chemical analyses, registration.labelling, and sale of feeding stuffs. Italso provides for Inspectors to enforce therequirements of the Act.

These two Acts have in the main operatedindependently although interactions havebecome increasingly frequent in recentYears; and as some veterinary medicinesare also used as feed additives, primarydealers have had no option but to registersuch products under both Acts. This chang-Ing situation was the basis of the initialimpetus that led to the proposal to amal-gamate the two Acts.

The Bill provides therefore for-The repeal of the Veterinary

Medicines Act, 1953-1963, and theFeeding Stuffs Act, 1928-1951, and theupdating of the legislation in theseActs in relation to veterinarymedicines and animal feeding stuffs;

The inclusion in the registrationprocess of all veterinary preparationswhether these are for open sale orfor sale only by veterinarians or byprescription through chemists;

The evaluation of each veterinarymedicine or feeding stuff in respectof possible harmful effects particu-larly in relation to adulterants, addi-tives, impurities, and pesticides thatmay be present as contaminants;

The registration of premises whereregistrable products are produced asa means of safeguarding against thecontamination of these products andof ensuring that a product is aseffective, potent, and safe as It Isclaimed to be;

The establishment of an advisorycommittee, with industry representa-tion, to advise the Minister on allmatters relating to the control, regis-tration, sale and production ofveterinary preparations and feedingstuffs:

The appointment of a registrarresponsible to the Director of Agricul-ture for implementing the detailedrequirements of the legislation;

The appointment of inspectors; andthe setting of standards for packag-Ing, labelling, advertising, and war-ranity In respect of veterinary pre-parations and feeding stuffs;

I commend the Bill to members.

Debate adjourned, on motion by MrSkidmore.