art.tfl.gov.uk web viewbut once i’d reached the point of having no possessions, which...

TRANSCRIBED 25.01.12 [email protected] TEL (+44) 01303 230038

ACTS OF KINDNESS EDIT 120117 JR

Mark Vernon: Thanks very much Cathy for that introduction ... and

M Inaudible

I think you can hear the sound OK, I can, feel like I can hear things. I’m going to ask Michael a

few questions, and I’ve gathered a few thoughts as well on kindness, and hopefully we’ll

have a flowing conversation. But just to stress Cathy’s point about your own comments

and questions and thoughts and so on too, there’ll be plenty of time for that so please do

gather them as we’re talking and this is your chance obviously to ask Michael questions

too. So that’s a very important part of the evening. And this is a, nothing if not an effort

to gather people’s thoughts and stories and so on, so let’s do that tonight as well. But

Michael, let’s start off where Cathy left off. You’ve said that, the genesis for this

project was with your work Break Down [2001], for which you destroying destroyed

everything you owned. , so Wwhat did that experience feel like, or what actually

happened? and how did it lead to Acts of Kindness?

Michael Landy: Well, I thinkpart of the the genesis, probably feeling awkward and,

well partly about kindness, those kind of awkward feelings about kindness about,

obviously feelings about doing the right thing, and those kind of moments that, been and

gone, and I obviously just kind of idle for Acts of Kindness was finding myself on the

Tube and then looking up and seeing someone enacting performing an act of kindness, –

maybe just like a small thing, like giving up their seat, and. I kind of thought about what

was that was,about and why did they do did itthat and why, and about those awkward

feelings you have about kindness, about doing the right thing – and those kinds of issues.

But yeahyes, I think it really began with Break Down, because. I talked about Break

Down as being an examination of consumerism, and as an examination of things, a. As a

child, being inquisitive about how something works, I used to literally takes things apart,

like my mum’s Beatles collection, and just toys and thingss. So I just, literally I, that

words/phrases in italics may not be accurate 1… indicates inaudible words/phrasesM indicates male respondentF indicates female respondent

Transcribed by: J Cooper



kind of being inquisitive about how something works, and I think it Break Down came

from that really. But So once I’d was atreached the point of having no possessions,

which didn’t last very long at all, but I started to ponder on what makes us human, apart

from being consumers, and part of that was kindness and compassion I guess. And

people, I’d been quite interested in how responsive the public were, on the whole, to

Break Down and how they wanted to know about the issues behind it., as I’d thought that

maybe I was going to be demonised as this guy who destroyed all his worldly belongings

and what a waste that was, and obviously we can talk about that. But , so I just, so people

were very generous as a whole and people would talk about the issues behind it, about, a.

And it kind of one of the reasons why it worked was because when you they looked into

the little yellow containers on the conveyor belts that went round every ten minutes,

people saw that my possessions weren’t so different to from anybody else’s. So people

they made a kind of mental inventory of what they possessed, and so it acted as a kind of

mirror, as a projection to them, and suddenly they thought about their own possessions,

because it’s very human to possess things., I’m not saying it isn’t, I just, I guess I, it was

kind of like an experiment I guess. And I dressed part of that up to protect myself, I’d

dressed it up as a dialogue with the public talking about consumerism, and probably

didn’t, in some respects it was wasted on me because, like the self part, what it meant to

me. And so t. The more emotional elements – the self part, what it meant to me – I found

a bit more difficult to deal with because obviously. I rationalised it as an artwork and as,

made all of these procedural guidelines to keep everyone busy about when taking things

apart. But I remember someone defacing some of my family photographs, – well, we I

saw it as defacing, but actually basically they weren’t following the procedural guidelines

which that my friend, Clive, had wrote, written down, which was basically separating the

materials from each other. And sSomeone had kind of got a coin or something, and he

rationalised it aswas taking the photograph off the card, off the plastic, off the, he

rationalised it as, but I saw it as being, defacing somethingit. And obviously, so the kind

of more emotive, I, soBut in general I think it’s more the generosity of the public spirit





really kind of touched me, and I thought, and then I went away, and almost immediately

then I actually more or less started to think about kindness almost immediately, but there

wasn’t any particular kind of vehicle or structure at that point, structure to house it in.

MV: Yeah, yeah, because I can understand, I suppose, the sense of, sort of exposure that

comes with destroying things.

Michael Landy Yeah.

And , especially when you’re left with nothing.

Michael Landy Yeah.

There’s also a kind of, it feels like there might be a kind exposure that you undergo when

you’re being kind to someone, or and when you’re accepting someone’s kindness too.

…

ML:

Michael Landy YeahYes, it’s very peculiar, : after a few days, destroying your

worldly belongings in front of complete strangers after a few days becomes normal in a

sense, and then every now and again something would happen that would pull me out to

think, : ‘Tthis isn’t normal, t. This isn’t really a normal situation experience we’re having

on Oxford Street.’ And yeah, and so destroying all your worldly belongings in front of

complete strangers, and the idea partly fitted that idea of feeling that my things weren’t

necessarily state- of- the- art things necessarily, so that kind of feeling of, you’re slightly,

slightly apologetic about the things you possess, and that’s obviously part of what

consumerism is about, isn’t it? Making us feel slightly inferior and t. That’s why you

have to go out there again and buy something.





MV: But people responded well on the whole to that?

Michael Landy On the whole, yeah. I think I was

Yeah, yeah, sSo that was the genesis: of people’s generosity … ?

ML: Michael Landy Yeah,s. I was surprised. .

Yeah, yeah.

Michael Landy I was surprised about, on the whole how, yeah, people were very

generously spare, and I said pPeople really wanted to talk about it., which is something,

in my other artworks I suppose I ha’d never really had anything like a performative

element in it my artworks before, a. And so this study over a two- week period, and we,

literally it’s on Oxford Street,

Yeah, sure.

Michael Landy So it’s where people go to shop, – they don’t go there to look at art

there. And, so it was, yeah, so we had, yeah, – brought lots of different kinds of people,

come along and some peopleincluding some old ladies who just wanted to return what

they’d bought just before Christmas, some old ladies who’d bought stuff, because i. It’s

the old C&A store, which is now Primarks, and we’d have to explain to them that we

were no longer C&As.

I see. [Laughter]





MV: So that’s the kindness bit, what about the Tube bit? Why the Tube?

ML: Michael Landy Well, like Cathy’s said, there ’s like, what was it? Fourare

four million trips made per day, mostly by strangers bumping into each other, behaving in

all sorts of different ways to each other. And I guess that was that point, I was, I talk

about it when you’re in your own bubble, – I think that’s how we, on the whole, deal

with this city, – you’re reading your paper, you’re playing your music, you’re phased,

you’re somewhere else really, and then suddenly you look up and someone’s enacting

performing an act of kindness. And I talk about the acts as being just everyday acts

because I’m not interested in superhuman acts or,; they’re just acts that are enacted,would

happen whether I make made my artwork or not they would happen anyway. So I guess

I’m kind of celebrating that component. And obviously in the end, I’m kind of interested

in things that are partly temporary and only exist for a very short amount of time, and

that’s an act of kindness in a sense between two complete strangers, : you’ll probably

never see them again, but and it’s kind of enacted out over just maybe just a few seconds

and you’ll never see them. And so how, I’m an artist, so how you solidify that as an

artwork was the thing that puzzled me, but also that obviously the underground is, 60% of

it isPeople are underground and people are trying to get to work, they’re slightly

flustered, they’re in a bad mood, … and I like the idea of that an act of kindness can

change somebody’s mood, – or it can make put you into a bad mood if someone’s

unkind, because I remember when people are unkind to me on the Tube and it kind of,

and you wish you’d done something about it at the time, but that time’s gone. And, so all

that, all,So it was about how people behave really and the idea of, question, are we less

more kinder now than we ever were before? – , and that kind of idea of a nostalgic,

sentimentalised idea of kindness as well. So I think all those, I think you ponder all those

things, oOnce you destroy your worldly belongings you start to think about all of those

these kind of things I guess.





MV: Yeah, yeah, because Iit struck me as well that, looking at some of the stories already

gathered on the website, that these are normal everyday encounters in a way.

Michael Landy Yeah, that’s quite interesting, yeah. Some of them are very moving.

Michael Landy Yeah.

B, but nonetheless it’s the something about their ordinariness which that lends does that. It

reminds me a bit actually of the way the Catholic church has tried to celebrate

ordinary everyday heroism, if you like, through by m

Michael Landy Oh really?

Making ordinary people saints.

Michael Landy OK, oh yeah.

Some of the most popular saints are were actually very ordinary people

Michael Landy Yeah.

.Who are remembered for, and then the church as it were celebrates this ordinariness and makes

something a bit sort of heroic out of it.

Michael Landy Yeah.





Now, I don’t, I wouldn’t necessarily want to align you with the church, necessarily but there

seems to be something similar about trying to

Michael Landy No, no, but I’m

At least paying attention somehow to these small things that

Michael Landy Yeah.

Which would otherwise just pass us by.

ML: Michael Landy Yeahs, and actually what, because I’mas artist-in-residence

at the National Gallery artist in residence, so the first thing that really struck me was were

the saints in the Rrenaissance paintings. And I mean I don’t paint, but 99% per cent of

the works there are paintings, and quite a lot of them are concerning the saints, a. And I

really, was really, at the beginning I interested in all the stories behind the saints,was like

St Catherine, and St Catherine of Alexandria in with her wheel and her sword, and I

know all the stories behind the saints. And I guess, yeah, I talk about kindness asBut you

don’t have to be a saint to be kind, so I’m trying to democratise it in a sense, to make it

everyday, because I’m interested in the everyday. And yeah, I like saints because they

remind me of weeds, because: they have attributes specific to them, in a sense, and so do

weeds have attributes. A, because after I did Break Down, I did a whole series of

etchings of just weeds attributes, because I liked weeds thatthe way they grow in cracks

in the street – because I found it kind of life- affirming, very similar to acts of kindness.

And, so I kind of thought about, like this idea that we’veI’d forgotten about all these

attributes that saints have, as I did, until I started to read about weeds, t. They have

attributes as well, : different kinds of flower heads, they different behave behaviour, in





different, they look appearancescompletely different. SoAnd until you can identify those

parts of a plant, you don’t know what it is, and so the same with saints in that respect,

yeah.

MV: I also like that idea with connection between saints andthe weeds, because the church

has a very ambivalent relationship with its saints, saints can have a life of their own

but the people

Michael Landy Yeah.

Propel if you like, and often that can cause a lot of discomfort and disquiet. And wWeeds

are a bit like that as well, aren’t they, if you’re into gardening?

ML: Michael Landy Yeah, and I mean normally, nos, both of them normally

come to a have a grisly end normally, obviously via people martyring saints or gardeners

destroying weeds who think obviously weeds athey’re a nuisance. But a weed is some,

it’sbasically just a plant out of place basically, that’s what it is. So, so yeah, I like the

saints, yeah,. I like reading about the saints. And tThere’s a book called Tthe Golden

Legend, talks about,that tells the stories about of the saints.

MV: Tell us something about the reception so far? for Acts of Kindness. What do you

think it’s actually doing to these parts of the underground where these stories are

actually placed? Have you got some sense of that already, what, – how people are

responding to it, or … feel?

ML: Michael Landy No, not really. Because it’s until 2013 I guess it’s kind of

Yeah, yeah, it’s very early days.





Michael Landy Yeah, it’s kind of early days, but

Have you got any, just like glimmers perhaps of what the impact of it might be?

Michael Landy Well I think wIt’s still early days.

MV: It’s too early to begin to see any patterns emerging?

ML: Yes. I like the idea that it’s going on for a year and a half, that there’ll be more stories

and that they’ll manifest themselves on the Tube. When I first started to talk about it, I

liked the idea that visually, that the things stories would just appear, like acts of kindness

in a sense. They’re not prevalent the whole time, but they, you catch them at from the

side corner of your eye in a sense, and that’s visually how I wanted the works to appear.

So it’s like, iIt’s been very interesting: first that kind off, the kind of call for action part of

it first, and then trying to get the public, the travelling public involved in thatit. And I

think trying to explain that they didn’t have to be superhuman acts of kindness, they’re

just normal, everyday acts, and to involve people like that, and then obviously, and then

the stories afterwards. So yeah, some, I quite, I really like the stories where people are

kind of engrossed, and maybe they’re slightly depressed or slightly broken- hearted, and

someone does something kind., Tthere wa’s one story where someone makes a little

paper sculpture of a horse and drops it in their lap of the sad person as he or she, I can’t

remember, he or she which, is leaving the train so, and that cheered cheers the person up,

o. Or someone just giving someone else a hanky because they’re crying. So things like

that who decided they, because I talk about it at’s that kind of connection between self

and other, – and you having some kind of empathy for somebody else, – and that kind

of, and then feeling slightly embarrassed even about talking about it. I’m aware of me

feeling slightly embarrassed about by thatit. A, and so that’s partly what I wanted to





grapple with and I’m,. yeah, I’m sure that’s how most people feel when, in a sense, they

decide whether to get involved or not to get involved, or to look the other way or to read

their paper, yeah, so. Sometimes you’re on the Tube and you’re in a bad mood for

whatever reason, or you’re late to get somewhere, and you’re not in the best frame of

mind, and that’s when an opportunity for an act of kindness could pop along and you’re

confronted with whether to get involved or not.

MV:

It’s very interesting that you mentioned empathy there, because there’s a lot of talk about

empathy at the moment, particularly around the science of happiness and the

interest there is in wellbeing and so on. And I wonder whether there’s there are links

perhaps between this sense of embarrassment, which I can feel, and the idea that to

be empathic with someone is both to be concerned with them, but of course sometimes

empathy is explained as stepping into someone else’s shoes, and to literally step in

someone else’son someone’s shoes toes. It’is a bit of an intrusion at the same time,

isn’t it?

Michael Landy Yeah, so, yeah.

So yYou have to make this kind of, this sort of balance we play between wanting to offer

something and to empathise, but also maybe someone wants to benot to invade private

privacy. and, so, but there’s, there are some intentions involved in acts of kindness, aren’t

there?

ML Michael Landy Yeah, and those, yeah, and I think that’s the kind of city

experience, isn’t it? And then yYou kind of play that it by ear, don’t you? . Because

obviously, yeah, someone crying on the Tube, I saw someone crying on the Tube the





other day., I didn’t do anything about it because I thought they just wanted to have their

private moment. being upset I suppose or

MV: Because sometimes, there’s quite a nice anonymity on the Tube I guess, isn’t there?

Michael Landy Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, tThere’s a sort of loneliness in crowds which that sometimes you might even welcome.

ML: Michael Landy Well yeah, andYes, so you kind of can get lost. You can get

lost in the city really, and we all, I’m sure we all become very good at not getting

involved in that sense. And there is like that idea about putting yourself in, literally in

somebody else’s shoes, and there’s there are unknown results:, it can backfire, it can go

weirdly wrong, you wish you hadn’t stuck, you wish you hadn’t got involved in the first

place. So yeah, so aAll those kind of things intrigue me. And obviously I’m intrigued by

the network itself:, all these people travelling, bumping into each other, or giving up their

seat, or helping someone up, with a heavy bag up the stairs, ; people behave in all sorts of

different ways and that’s kind of, and. I’m not telling people to behave in any particular

way –, I’m not saying you’ve got to be kinder to people or I’ll come round and destroy all

your worldly belongings, even though I’d like to do that, but yeah, so I’m not doing that.!

MV: But there is a sort of politics to it I guess, isn’t there? I was, iIn preparation for this

evening, I was having a quick flick through some of the seminal writers, and it’s

very interesting actually,: John Stuart Mill wrote about kindness, the great Victorian,

early Victorian philosopher, English philosopher, wrote about kindness, but he was

very wary of it actually. And he was wary of it in this sense, that hHe associated saw

kindness very much as a feminine trait, and he thought that encouraging people to

be kind was actually a way of keeping women down, t. That’s how it felt to him in





that period. And along with Mary Wollstonecraft, the his idea was very much was

tthat women needed to become more like men to become autonomous, self-

sufficient, self- reliant. So the politics of it has kind of shifted through time, which

interested me, I didn’t, I didn’t even really clock that before.

ML: Michael Landy Yeah, I guess people also think about the it society we live in

now as a kind of more individualistic, contemporary society we live in now, and a more

competitive kind of society where,: that kind of dog- eat- dog kind of attitude where

people are, well people, anyway people perceive iteach other as solely, the whole they’re

looking out for themselves solely. And that obviously can manifest itself on the Tube as,.

But I’m kind of trying to say , I guess, that we’re more connected to each other than we

believe.

MV: Do you think it is a sort of feminine thing to do in some way? Are more stories

being left by women? or is there a gender, so you haven’t really got a feel for that?

Yeah.

ML: Michael Landy I don’t know, I haven’t really,. I haven’t really looked into

that.

MV: Yeah, tThe other angle is this business about, that comes from the wellbeing work,

which is a lot about gratitude and saying thanks. And one of the tips, if you read

these books as I do, is that we just should spend thegive thanks at the end of every day

giving thanks for three things and this will enhance our wellbeing. But the reason

why I quite like the kindness twist on it is that it kind of, it deinstrumentalises it.

Kindness is a pure gift, if you like, isn’t it?

ML: Michael Landy Yeahs, you don’t …





MV: Expect nothing anything in return.

ML: Michael Landy Yeahs, exactly, yeah.

MV: If I’m clocking up the things I want to feel thankful for I’mYou’re hoping I’ll you’ll get

a little hitch in my your happiness levels perhaps, or something but kindness is still

Michael Landy Yeah.

There’s a lovely giftedness I think to kindness.

Michael Landy Yeah, you don’t, you, yeah, you’re, you mean you’re not

It’s an, almost something that’s given, yeah.

ML: Michael Landy You’re not expecting anything, to receive anything, you’re

giving up your time, or you’re giving up your seat, or you’re, that’s, and t. hat’s kind of

what I really, those really temporary existent moments are the moments that, lLike I said,

I don’t have to make artwork about those temporary moments;them, and they’d kind of

manifest themselves on the Tube anyway. And I find those them really life- enhancing.

MV: Yeah, yeah. And iIt reminded reminds me too, of someone whom I was

reading[Name?], who mentioned [where?] the idea of leaving a seat free at your meal





table for the unexpected guests, and it sort of resonated somehow with, w. When you

do offer someone kindness, or you receive kindness, there is a sort of, it’syou’re

moving into a slightly unknown world, territory. isn’t it?

Michael Landy Yeah.

You aren’t quite sure, yeah, as you was already saying, how it’s going to be given and how

it’s going to be received.

Michael Landy Yeah.

But that sort of risk, that, yeah, being open to something which that’is unexpected and

slightly unknown, can lead you into a whole new world if i. It might cheer your day

up, but it, and who knows who you might meet through an act of kindness on the

Tube.

ML: Michael Landy Yeah, yYeahs, absolutely, yeah.

Yeah. But still you feel, it feels quite early days to begin to see those patterns emerging if

anything, yeah?

Michael Landy Yeah, to actually really, to really, yeah, and I like the idea that it’s

going on for like a year and a half, so I like the idea that there’ll be more stories and they

will manifest themselves on the Tube. So I think, like kind of, Acts of Kindness, it’s,

deals with the kind of issues involved in it that are similar issues to what other things I’ve

done in the past I guess in some respects. And, because I was thinking about, pPeople

will say to me, ‘Wwhy is this an artwork?’ or whatever, and I guess it wa’s more to do

with what I’ve done previously. really, so I see iIt’s that kind of connection with either





labour or, or other things I’ve been, or the value of things, and the value we give to

something like, just like an act of kindness. And, so I think tThat’s where I make that

connection to some of my previous work, yeah.

MV: Yeah, I see. How did, wWhat was the reception like amongst the people on the, who

work on the Uunderground when and then, you spoke to people who work therethem

in order to gather the initial stories and so on?

Michael Landy Yeah, we talked, we

How about Holborn, for example? Wwhat was that experience like?

ML: Michael Landy Somewhere like Holborn, it’s obviously a lot more busier

and it’s kind of, and I think the staff were a lot, a bit more frazzled because it’s obviously

a lot busierof that. But then we went out to further stations, like Loughton and Holland

Park and places, and the staff seemed very positive – because obviously it’s not just about

the travelling public,: it’s obviously the staff can also take part as well. And so I suppose

tThey’re at the front end of it all;, they see the public at its best and at its worst. And, so

bTut they were very responsive actually so, because obviously we need their help as well.

So no, they were, yeah, they were really responsive.

MV: Yeah, yeah.

Michael Landy Yeah.

I also like the idea, wThen I was thinking about it, that there’s a kind of freedom that’s

required to be kind, : you kind of need to be free in your person





Michael Landy Yeah.

In order to be kind. It reminded me, there was of a very interesting Catholic philosopher called

Ivan Illich whom I used to read a lot of, a Catholic philosopher,. (Ssorry, this is all

sounding rather churchy, but I used to be a priest, so when I was thinking about

Caritas and kindness and things, all this stuff’s suddenly started coming back to me

slightly strangely.) But there was a very, there’s a very interesting philosopher called

Ivan Illich and hIlliche wrote a lot about the good Samaritan parable, he was very

fascinated by the Ggood Samaritan parable and how this it was read. And typically

it’s read that, it was the Jews that crossed on to the other side of the road and a

Samaritan that didn’t, s. So it seemed to be a kind of interracial thing. But he

thought that wasn’t really right, : he thought that actually what the Samaritan had

was a kind of freedom to act charitably and generously to this person, ; he wasn’t

bound up by worrying about would whether he’d be attacked too, would he be, or

would get dirty or catch something, or what about the pain, the disruption to his day

to get this chap to a hostel where he woul’d be looked after and so on. He had, and

Illich argues that it the Samaritan was had a remarkable freedom that the Samaritan

had, that wa’s really the sort of essence of wthat’s required to be kind as it were.

Michael Landy Yeah. You’re free to step out of your day, your expectations about who you are and who you

should interact with. And that’s what the he thought the message of the parable

really was actually.

ML: Michael Landy Yesah, I think you have to, to an extent, have to like yourself

to be kind to somebody else.





MV: Yeah, that’s another interesting point, yeah.

Michael Landy I think you, yeah, I think, yeah. And when I was, when, sometimes

you’re on the Tube and you’re in a bad mood for whatever reason or, like I was saying

earlier on, you’re late to get to what you’re doing and you’re not in the best frame of

mind, and that’s when an act of kindness could pop along and you’re kind of confronted

whether to get involved or not.

That reminds me, you saying that of Aristotle’s work on friendship, h. He wrote a couple of

books on friendship, which that in a way still set an agenda if you read philosophy to

this day. But hHe was very interested in how, the business of self love and how we,

in some way you had have to be able to befriend yourself in order to be able to

befriend anyone someone else because you’re closest to yourself. But self love comes

in two flavours if you like:, there’s a kind of narcissistic self love where you actually

become the only person that exists in your world, ; you’re only really interested in

yourself. And so he argues you have to have a the kind of self love that enables you

to get over yourself and then, as it were, he’d say, someone who’s comfortable with

themselves, that kind of thing.

Michael Landy Yeah, some people say it’s, yeah. And then you can see the rest of the world, yeah.

ML: Michael Landy Sometimes when people discuss it, it’s like, it’s almost like

you they feel superior when you’re they’re kind to somebody, or other times peoplethey

see it as getting like some kind of control over somebody, you’re trying to control people.





And, so I’ve read a bit about kindness, because obviously I, it’s the, what I was going to

involve myself in, and yeah.

MV: So what, how, do you have to monitor that? How is that, where does that, where does the

balance lie between exerting some kind of superiority over someone or, is it, does it

happen in the moment?

Michael Landy I don’t know. Pass.

Have you ever tried an act of kindness and you thought, ‘Ooh that was actually wrong’,? I

did feel, I’ll tell you what happened the other day.

Michael Landy Yeah.

Yesterday I was waiting for the bus and this chap came up to me and said, ‘Ccan you give

me a quid?’ and everything, aAnd I was a bit grumpy, and my grumpiness meant

that I dropped the pound and then he had to reach down and pick it up, and I felt

really bad about that. I thought that’s a

ML: Michael Landy Even though you’d given him the pound?.

MV: Give him a quid, but don’t make him lean, kneel before you, t! That’s what it felt

like.


So the act kind of went horribly wrong because of that.





Michael Landy Yeah. I haven’t had any acts of kindness go horribly wrong so far.

Yeah, yeah, he got, hHe still got the quid and everything, but


It made me feel like my grumpiness had ruined it really.

ML: No, Michael Landy Yeah, yeah, as though he had to grovel for it.

Yes, it felt like that.

Michael Landy Yeah.

It really did.

Michael Landy Yeah.

Yeah.

Michael Landy Yeah, no I haven’t had anything like that, I haven’t so far.

[Laughter]

MV: It is very interesting though that this thing, kindness, pulls in all sorts of stuff.

There’s the ideas, but there is this business about what it’s, I was looking as well at the

book that the psychoanalyst Adam Phillips did a year or so back on kindness





[TITLE? DATE?], the psychoanalyst, and he makes the point that he thinks it all goes

back to the first experience we have of kindness, he would say this because he’s a

psychoanalyst, but, which is from our mother. And iIn those early days we you reach

out to your mother, as it were, and our, if you’re, if you have a good enough mother,

then she’ is able to fulfil all that you need through her kindness. But the trouble is

that you can’t, as it were, just live at your mother’s breast for the rest of your life;,

there has to be a moment where when you’re wrenched away, or your primary carer

one should say, your primary carer, you have to be wrenched away in order to become a

separate individual. So this, hHe thinks this is where this expression ‘being cruel to

be kind’ comes from.

Michael Landy Oh really? OK.

Because the mother is, well it has to be only a good enough mother.

Michael Landy Yeah.

If, aA perfect mother would actually be a disaster for the child because the child would

never gain a self of itself.

Michael Landy Yeah.

It would just, as it were, suck up the kindness and would never gain a sense of itself.

Michael Landy Yeah.

And so the good enough mother is, knows when to, as it were, in a way inflict the cruelty that

withholds the kindness, at least for a while, in order that the child can gain a sense of





itself. So there’s a lot of, maybe some of these, the reason why, there’s a the sense of

embarrassment or the risk is because that’s involved, maybe there’s a faint echo of

our first experience of kindness that comes to mind, yeah.

ML: Michael Landy Yeah, well I think pPeople still compartmentalise kindness,

like kindness to old people, a mother’s kindness to her and child kindness,. I think it’s

still, I think people feel much more comfortable about that than they do enacting acts of

kindness oin the Tube.

MV: So you could kind of sort of challenge yourself to kindness, doing a kindness to someone

who you wouldn’t normally expect to.

Michael Landy Yeah.

It’s kind to give a pregnant woman a seat on the Tube or something like this, but

Michael Landy Yeah.

Maybe something that’s a bit more unexpected would be, take you to an even more peculiar

place.

Michael Landy Yeah, I’m just trying to think what it could be, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Michael Landy Yeah.

END OF INTERVIEW





We’ve been talking for about half an hour or so now, so I want to , just to, need to remind

you that the chanceopen it up for questions and comments and things, and we can carry

onfrom the audience, I’ve got plenty more that I would raise. But maybe there’s just a

first question or two, or shall we, yeah, there are, there’s one question here. Anything

else?

F Inaudible

Yeah, there’s a lady at the front here as well.

F So …

Sorry about the buzzing on the thing. But let’s begin to open up then and see what else is said.

So there was a lady here and then a lady on the front as well, thank you.

F Inaudible

The interference might be if someone’s got they’re mobile, including us …

F Right.

Oh right.

Michael Landy Mine’s off I think.

Or near that speaker there, or … it’s very likely …





F Inaudible

I have got mine here, but it’s off, but I’ll move it. Yeah, thank you.

FWoman 1: OK, I’m just checking my mobile. You kind of touched on

this but I think it’s really interesting to think about the conditions for acts of kindness,

and I like the fact idea that you can only do it when you’re feeling good about yourself.

But there is something about, so the anonymity of being on a bit of public transport that

involves youmeans not having to get that involved in an act of kindnesskindness. I’m

wondering if I.

Michael Landy Yeah.

F I’m just thinking, w’dould I do the same thing on the Tube as I would to for

someone who I sort of knew on my street – who might actually end up hanging out in my

garden for the next two years or something – as I would on the Tube.

Michael Landy Yeah.

F There’s something that, about it which ithat’s, is kind of easier to do within

that space, and I think that’s worth thinking about.

Michael LandyL: Yeah, nos, it kind of makes you feel more comfortable in some

respects I suppose, t.

F Yeah.





Michael Landy That you’d probably never see that person again.

F Yeah.

Michael Landy Yeah.

FW1: And also there has is to be a sense of you feeling almost superior to the

person that you’re doing it tofor. I think, yeah, I just remember wWhen I was pregnant

and people would offer me seats, a seat on the Tube, or not occasionally, but I’m not sure

if, I was thinking wondered whether if I was a pregnant man but that wouldn’t really

work, but i. If I was in a position where people didn’t feel that they could patronise me in

some way, would they be able to offer me that act of kindness?

MV: What I’m thinking when you’re talking, iIt’s a really interesting point, as you say, y.

You don’t want to get lumbered with someone for your initial act of kindness, but in

a way what that says to me is that you’ve got to be able to receive an act of kindness

in an appropriate way too.

Michael Landy Yeah.

It’s one of these thosesort of things we have to negotiate, isn’t it? It’s a bit like what the

French philosopher, Jacques Derrida, the French philosopher, he wrote a in his very

entertaining book about hospitality [Title, date?]. And hHe makes this point that

hospitality , well he makes this point about many things actually, but he picks on

hospitality as saying it’sis kind of an impossible thing because if you imagine going

round to someone’s house and they say to you, ‘Mmake yourself at home’, and you

do that literally, – you start moving the furniture around, you don’t like that





picture, you take that down, you decide you want to paint a wall and so on, and –

that would obviously be a complete abuse of what they’d said.

F Yeah.

Make yourself at home. But it would be following what they’d actually suggested. So the

point is that we have to know how to receive, ; there’s a kind of dance or exchange.

F Yeah, there’s requirements.


That has to go on. So wWe have to be trained to receive kindness as well as to know how to

give it in a way. Yeah, iIt’s a very interesting thought. I was thinking about how

tThere’s is, I think a very insidious pervasive culture about how, this cost- benefit

analysis culture that we have, that where you only do things if you can be guaranteed

a return. So in biology they talk a lot about ‘reciprocal altruism’, and it’s a sort of

I’ll scratch your back if I, you’ll scratch my back at sometimeine situation. I wrote

this book about friendship, as Cathy said, a And I think it’s it can actually be very

disruptive, actually because it leads you to approach the whole world in a kind of

instrumental way. So in the world of friendship, you get people write articles about

how you need a dozen friends, you need a friend to cry with, a friend to look after

your kids, a friend who has the same interests as you. And you can be sure of one

thing, if you flip from wanting to be useful as a friend to feeling used as a friend then

the friendship’s not long for this world. Emerson, he makes this comment, i: ‘If you

want to have a friend, be a friend’ –, just kind of do it. And moving away from these

kind of calculations, this cost benefit analysis, if it has some part to play in that I for one

would be delighted, I can’t bear all this reciprocal altruism talk. Lady here.





WF2: I thought it wa’s quite interesting that you brought that point up, particularly

here at Toynbee Hall, in relation to the Wwelfare Sstate, and. I wanted to ask you a

question, Michael, around this issue of value. In the current political climate where

we’ve got a kind of dismantling of the Wwelfare Sstate, and kindness as you might be

talking about it, is almost being articulated within this language of morally, moral

obligation language in relation to this question of the ‘Bbig Ssociety’, . And I just

wondered what your thoughts were about thewhether you might be making a political

comments that you might be making in relation to the current political climate?.

Michael L:andy Well, as I said, yeah, the Bbig Ssociety and everything, it’s kind of,

it seems to beis a current issue, but at the same time, it’s because I’ve been thinking about

this for like ten years, and it’s kind of partly just coincidence that it’s occurred at the

same time. So I’m not sure really what my, yeah, … I’d rather stay out of it to be honest.

WF2: Sorry, I’m not suggesting that this is the Bbig Ssociety, . I’m almost saying

what they’re saying is the opposite. They’re, the Bbig Ssociety is being articulated

almost as though it’s an obligation for people to get involved in a so- called act of

kindness in order to be cared for by the state, whereas I think that’s almost the opposite of

what you’re saying, and I think it’s interesting for us to look at it.

Michael L:andy Well yeah, I’m just celebrating ordinary acts of kindness, like I said,

that will happen whether there’s a recession on, or there’s an upturn or whatever. I think

these things manifest themselves anyway, with or without me, and I’m celebrating that

through my artwork, that which hopefully people will come across on the Tube.

MV: It interests me, this business:, I was thinking of the difference between kindness and

caring, and how, and one of the criticisms of the welfare states is what’s called





‘welfarism’, and they’ll be: the idea that, as it were, not just that you make people

dependant upon the receipt of state care, but that also caring is actually, can become

a rather bureaucratic and automatic, so as in a way you become a cog in the caring

machine. So people will say slightly extraordinary things, like I went to see the doctor,

he was very kind, as if a doctor might not be kind too. And sTo I guess that maybe

there’s an interesting tensions here about the kind of culture which we live in, where,

also where we construct many of our relationships contractually:, we buy in , as it

were, services, and if the services aren’t delivered to our satisfaction, or if we don’t

deliver services to other people’s satisfaction, then there’s recompense there. And

this kind of freezes things like trust and kindness, – these more spontaneous human

virtues you might say. So yeah, I’m sure tThere’s an awful lot in this business about

whether the Wwelfare Sstate delivers kindness or whether it delivers care, and how

you keep kindness in with care and so on. Does that kind of, does that, it’s perhaps a

slightly different point from what you were making, but something going on there, yeah,

interesting. Other thoughts or comments? There’s a lady just beside you.

WF3: Hi, I was just interested in, yYou tallked about slight embarrassment,

Michael, in terms of acts of kindness and, but that sense that w. We’ve all experienced,

either personally or witnessed, in terms of how an act of kindness can make others

actually visible on the Tube when I’d say we’re all guilty of trying to spend most of our

time pretending we’re the only person in the carriage. I wondered if, Michael, if you

could say something also about the nature of the way people are actually giving you their

acts of kindness for this artwork, because in a sense there’s no contract, well or it’s a one-

way contract to ain the sense of contributing to a wider work, so there’s a sort of

anonymity of for people here, but it’s the project is reliant on the mass in terms of this

project even forming and taking shape across the network. And I just wondered, asAs an

artist who also operates within a gallery system, if you could you talk something about,





little something about the unique context and how you see this project building upon

some of your other works.?

Michael L:andy Yeah, as I said before, I don’t really, I’m not that, I just, yeah, I’m

just interested, like I was saying, kind of the idea of about the weeds, about weeds

growing in cracks in the street, and in that idea of being able to spot the stories.

Obviously, the network itself is a vast network, and to have any kind of real impact on

that obviously, we’d have to make hundreds of thousands of signs. So, so yeah, I guess

it’s, And because it’s only just started, I don’t really quite know what to expect. AndBut

I kind of, it’s that kind of unexpected bit, that bit you don’t quite know about, which is

the interesting bit I guess, the bit that’s, that structurally it’s not quite there yet, so yeah.

MV: I wonder whether there’s a, something which might emerge, which that will be

highlight the difference between kindness as a sort of feeling, so – you mentioned

embarrassment, but it sort of arouses emotion in us when we we’re receiving and

giving kindness, – as opposed to kindness much more as a sort of more rational stance

towards the world. I, where t’s almost like kindness is a decision you make. And so

many, again if the sort of, tThe equivalent word would be Caritas, – charity, love.

Michael Landy Yeah.

It’ is a kind of love that’ is actually perhaps a bit more rational. It’s not, so charity, God’s

charity in, again, iIn the kind of Christian understanding of things, God’s love is

actually rather disinterested, : it treats everybody equally, and gives out, as it were,

gives to all, as opposed to, say, like a friendship love, where you definitely do more

for your friends than you do to for strangers, and

Michael Landy Yeah.





. A

Which, and so there’s a kind of a, there’s an imbalance built into friendship, which maybe

there isn’t in, with charity. The, iIt’s more like a stance or decision. And I guess

when you’re making something a work, you do, this makes sort of more definite and it

sort of, it pulls away, the story perhaps pulls away a bit from the emotion of the

moment in the course of remembering that moment somehow.

Michael L:andy Well I think, like obviously, I’ve done things before where you’veI

made a work before where, I’ve asked people to destroy their artworks in a bin installed

to, it must have been at the South London Gallery, so there are have been similar kinds

of things where I’ve asked the public to take part. One’s That one was very nihilistic and

this is, and this is, it’s kind of a celebration of life really, and, so they’re kind of complete

opposites in a sense. So one’s, you have this huge void that, aAs a creative person,

you’re trying to create artwork, and some of it is less successful than others, and some

people perceive, some artists embrace their failures and love their failures and would

never want to give them up, as,. I kind of rationalise it as like,: ‘Yyeah, asking people to

bring along their artworks to destroythis is celebrating the idea of failure, and yeah,

asking people to bring along their artworks to destroy.’ And, sSo it’s kind of, so it’s

very, like and then the opposing poles, obviously asking people to celebrate just ordinary

acts of kindness is the complete opposite thing in a sense.

Yeah.

Michael Landy But I kind of like that.

As you were talking I was looking over your shoulder, I could see the slide, and it

reminded, red is a very celebratory colour actually, isn’t it? Or is it, I don’t know, I,

in fact it’s





Michael Landy I don’t know. But red’s my favourite colour

Oh right, OK.

Michael Landy And obviously I had to do the Central Line anyway, so it’s

But it works really well like that.

Michael Landy Yeah.

If it was on one of those rather dowdy Tube colours, like, I can’t remember what they are

now, but, oh the Jubilee Line’s grey, isn’t it? But it’s quite a nice grey though, isn’t

it, the Jubilee Line, it’s a sort of a, a light grey.

Michael Landy Yeah, we did, yeah, yeah.

I know that was a completely random thought. Lady at the back there, yeah.

F Yeah, I just wanted to ask about

Do you want to just wait for the mic just so we can, we can all hear, that’d be great, thank

you?

WF4: Sorry. Hi, I just wanted to ask, so I was looking on the website and looking

through the stories on the website, and obviously I saw that you’ve get got pretty much

two types of stories:, you’ve got people who are observing acts of kindness enacted by

other people, and you’ve also got obviously people writing about their own acts of





kindness. And I just wondered, given what you were saying about social embarrassment

and the fact that you don’t normally tell people about your own acts of kindness, whether,

I thought it was quite interesting talking about lots, social embarrassment and

awkwardness and the fact that obviously normally you don’t normally tell people about

your own acts of kindness. And I just wondered whether for you, you make a distinction,

or whether you prefer the stories of story, the people who just observe the acts of

kindness., or

Michael L:andy Not necessarily. It, like I think I said earlier on, it’s kind of more,

the stories I, were the stories where people are kind of wrapped up in whatever’s just

happened to them, or their feelings about themselves, or they’re having a particularly bad

day, and then someone will just do something, : give you them a hanky, say a few kind

words, give you them a smile, make a little sculpture and drop it in your their lap, and it

kind ofsuddenly pulls you them out of yourself themselvessuddenly. And tThey’re the

kind of stories I like. I’m trying to remember some of the other stories off hand but,

yeah, I’m by myself, as far as, don’t feel sorry for me, but aAs an artist, I’m kind of

wrapped up in my own thoughts and my own world quite a lot of the time, and then

suddenly every now and again I have a thought to project myself out into the wider world

and, to get to know it a bit I guess because I can, I’ll, I can spend a lot of time, well a. As

a child I used to like to spend a lot of time making things, and I still do that to this day,

and I feel slightly, it’s kind of, I feel comfortable about doing that. As then the other

element, So this kind of element of suddenly projecting out, and I think that’s partly why

I do it,: to make myself feel uncomfortable partly.

MV: It’s sort of if you had to fight your own introversion or ?

Michael L:andy YeahYes.





Yeah, yeah.

Michael Landy And I think that’s the same thing we’re talking about:, getting

involved or not getting involved. And I think, and so I’m grappling with those kind of

thoughts really and, because . Ssometimes I want to know what the world’s about, and

other times I’ll just shut myself away and be insular.

MV: Does it feel a bit therapeutic to you, are you finding it?

Michael Landy At the moment, what

But the whole project, is it a bit of artists overcoming their artistic tendency to solipsism, or

Michael L:andy No, no not really., n

o.

MV: Going too far?.

Michael Landy Yeah!.

[Yeah, yeah.

Laughter]

Other thoughts and comments? Lady at the back, yeah.





WF5: May I speak, even though the voice of the roaming mic? I just wanted to

say

Please do, please do.

F But sSomething I’ve been really interested in about the stories coming in is

that a lot of them are really old, : some of them say ‘Tthis was 18 years ago’, ‘Tthis was

10 years ago’, ‘Tthis was 5 years ago.’ So it kind of relates to your idea of the

disinterestedness, or the selflessness. There’s something, there’s lLots of people have

said: ‘Tthank you for giving me an opportunity to speak.’ So in some ways it’s not only

giving people a voice t

Michael Landy Yeah.

F To finally tell this tale that they’ve carried around, b. But also there’s not,

it’s not necessarily just kind of an altruistic disinterest;, there’s a kind of self interest

there as well in the sense of: ‘ I’ve been waiting to donate this story, now finally I can be

heard, but I also want like a piece of me to be in that process, to be publicised.’

Michael L:andy Yeah, wWell it’s anonymous so, but yeahyes, I’ve spoke to

somebody who, they did tell me their story, I don’t think they’ve, they’ve probably, they

haven’t sent it in yet, but they said, yeah, they’d always wanted to tell their story but they

hadn’t had a vehicle to do thatit, and yeah.

MV: The ancient Greeks, they had two words for time: which made me think, when you

were talking there, so one was chronos, which is like calendar time, ticking over like a

clock does;, but one, an the other one was kairos. And kairos is like ‘timeliness’, we

might say I suppose. So, aAnd the point about that is it’s, it’s quite often relatively





eternal, so, if something happened 18 years ago, as you were saying one of the stories

said, but it still stays with you, it has a kind of, it sort of travels through life with you

and it’s kind of life- enhancing because of that;, it never loses its quality, – it’s like

an energy source that you can, in a moment, return to, that kind of eternity. That’s

very nice, kairos time. The Greeks have lots of different words for things, which are

often helpful I find. Cathy?

Cathy Haynes: Yeah, I just wanted to ask a question of, well probably both of you but

particularly Michael, about the creativity of an act of kindness and . Ythe way that you

were talking about empathy being something where you have to imagine being in

someone else’s shoes, and; you have to imagine what their life is like, and you can get

that horribly wrong. But it isn’t, but you are engaging in an imaginative act. So

asking Michael, I guess, about hHow it does this connects with his your wider practice

of involving other people in something, which may be a creative or destructive act,

but how you see,? Ddo you see the acts of kindness themselves – not just the recording

of them – as being, participating in an artwork because they a’re creative acts?

Michael Landy The acts of kindness are creative acts in themselves?

Yeah, the actual acts, not just the recording of them.

Michael L:andy YeahYes, I guess I, as far as the celebration of life then they are

creative acts as, yeah, no, very much, soyeah. That’s another rubbish answer, sorry.

MV: But is it art in the sense of So would that mean, is that so, and what does that say about,

because I edit this series called tthe ‘Art of Living’, which is slightly different contexts

sort of art, but where the point is that, I suppose that one can, that to live well requires

a certain kind of training and attention and awareness .





Michael Landy Yeah.

Aand so on?. And is it art in that sense, the kind of, it’s not like there are, it’s like we were

talking before, tThere’s are not rules to life, but there’s a kind of practical

intelligence you have to have so you know when to offer the act and when not to,

when to give, when to withhold, about how to receive and all these kind of things.

Or is it art perhaps more in the sense that Cathy meant, which it is a kind of creative

act though?

Michael L:andy I’m not so much, more about the art, it’s more the kind of value we

give to things really that, and the value I give to things. I’m always trying to,

tThroughout all my, most of my practice, I’m trying totrying to make everything the same

in a sense, trying to make everything equal. And I guess, and I, so I’m, wWhether it’s

people, labour, value or whatever, I try and to be, I try and equalise everything out and try

and make it the same. And I think I’m trying to do that in this project as well, but at the

same time obviously grappling with real people.

Yeah, yeah.

Michael Landy Yeah.

Great, there’s another thought here. We’re probably, I guess we’re coming towards the

end, so if you have got something that is pressing then this is your moment, but we’ll

certainly take this … comment.

Michael Landy We were going to show some pictures actually of some of my





Oh OK, great.

Michael Landy Past work but, which we’ve, I’ve forgot to do.

Well let’s make sure we have exhausted comments and thoughts and questions first, yeah.

Michael Landy Yeah.

WF6: Yeah, I was just going to follow on from Cathy’s question, which was that

youYou mentioned, Michael, when you were describing the process, about thea ‘call to

action’, and. I think what you meant by that, I might be wrong, was that you actually

advertisinged for people to put send in their stories ….

Michael L:andy YeahYes.

WF6: But it did make me think that isn’twonder whether this project is possibly a

call to action, to try andan attempt to encourage people to be, to do more acts of

kindness.? And following on from that, it may or may not be the case, but following on

from Cathy’s question, perhaps in doing more acts of kindness aAre you actually calling

on people to participate in your project through being kind?

Michael L:andy Yeah, well we started out kind of recycling in respects. Well, like I

said to you, I’m not really, I’m not interested in telling people to do anything, so I don’t

think I’m moralistically bullying people into being kind. If it manifests that people are

kinder because they read a story and then suddenly they’re in a situation where, then I

think that would be, yeah, that would be nice.





Isn’t there a film where, which begins with one act of kindness and this kind of snowballs

and, I don’t know if it leads to peace, love and harmony everywhere, but I felt

there’s, does anyone remember this? Maybe I’ve made it up.

M Pay it Forward.

Inaudible

Sorry?

M Pay it Forward, that's a bit like that.

Oh OK, right, yeah, yeah, yeah. Any other thoughts, comments? Yeah, excellent, lovely.

There’s a, on the front row here.

WF7: Hiya, I think it’s a really lovely project., I was just wondering where you’ve

positioned yourself as an artist in this.? It’s quite interesting to think about , yeah, that

decision that you’ve maybe made that it’s about other people and their acts of kindness,

and I wondered if you’d initially considered the project as initially being about your own

acts of kindness and i? It could have been you as an artist acknowledging and charting

what you were doing on the Tube as an act of kindness?

Michael Landy Yeah.

F And sort of along with that perhaps one of these might be your own stories

of kindness as well.





Michael L:andy Yeah, I hadn’t really thought about that, but. I mean I hadn’t really,

given, I like the idea, of observing as an artist, observing,. I look at things all the time,

and you’re here I was observing somebody enacting performing an act of kindness. I

hadn’t really thought about me taking part in an act of kindness, or my own acts of

kindness, or even trying to really remember an act of kindness until, because. In fact,

remember when they asked me to come up with an example of something I’d witnessed

and, I couldn’t. I’ve obviously seen people help people others upstairs with bags, but

nothing, itthere wasn’t anything, particularly anything that particularspecial about it. So,

and tOnce, when I was on the District Line and I know, there was a flood in the next

station., I think it was Victoria Station that was flooded, so the train was going to go on to

St James’s, and the chap next to me, he offered to take an old lady, who was ’d been

going to get off at the next station, I think it was something like Victoria Station, it was,

and it was going to go on to St James or somewhere, and he offered, when it was, to take

her back to Victoria. He said, he said it was, it was on his way to work, but he didn’t

have to do it. but hHe recognised her discomfort, saw that she was worried about how

she was going to get back to Victoria, how to get Victoria. And obviously, and then

someone drops their Oyster card on the floor and I pick it up and give it to them or

whatever, and I think, ‘Ooh yeah, I’m that chap who’s doing that artwork about acts of

kindness’, so that makes me laugh inwardly, so yeah.

[Laughter ]

MV: You need toshould perform some horrors on the Tube and see what reaction you get

from!

Michael L:andy YeahYes, I did think about that, yeah.!

[Laughter]





Michael L:andy We won’t go there, yeah. Well I mean, bBut they’re all the kind of,

as I said at the beginning, they’re the options, aren’t they?, Wwe can behave in a

particular good way or we can behave in a bad way. And they’re the kind of, all the kind

of things that happen underground.

Yeah, yeah. Lady here.

WF8 [Tamsin Dillon?]: Have I taken, yeah, I just wanted to make a

couple of observations myself, just listening to the conversation about what the project is,

and i. It’s become more clear to me as we’ve gone along that it’s, that this is, the project

is very much a work of art because what it’s doing is what many works of art set out to

do, is: to reveal something about the way that we are, about society, about life and living.

And so I thought it was interesting, Michael, that you said you weren’t set, it’s not your

objective to ask people to do these acts of kindness. And I think what the project, the

real impact of the project clearly isn’t necessarily going to be to encourage people to be

more kind more, but it, for me, it seems to be throwing a spotlight more revealing on

various things questions, like who’s prepared to be kind to whom? What do we accept

expect about who should be kind to whom? So lLots of the acts of kindness that have

come in have been about men being chivalrous to women and so, and whether . Would

they would have done those same kind acts to for a completely different person?. And

also, it seems to throw a focus on, well sort of reminding us that we do all have to be

rather self- sufficient in a public area, particularly on the Tube, you’re not necessarily, t.

This might just be me, but I kind of feel like, not necessarily I’m not prepared to go out

into that arena unless I feel self- sufficient enough to cope with it. And occasionally, I’ll

help someone up the stairs with their luggage, or more likely somebody with a buggy or

something, but like many other people I’m wrapped up in my own bubble most of the

time, and I assume other people are too. So I think what this project is really doing is





being very revealing about how we behave towards each other and, and also w. When an

unsolicited act of kindness is has been offered, for to me, in the past I guess, frequently

my response has frequently been to be a little bit suspicious in case something else was

actually going to happen to me, and that has happened in the past. There’s, a: an apparent

act of kindness has been the starting point for a lot of scams that people have heard about.

And it, and I think this project has, allows us to think about all of those things. So I

didn’t really have a question but, unless it was to ask Michael, what you think would,

whetherere any of those different things were in your mind when you set theseconceived

the project?

MV: Whether Were you planning it’s a scam?.

[Laughter]

F Set these projects up. I did, yeah, when you set the project up.

Michael L:andy I always find wonder how those people with those huge bags, how

they ever got on the Tube in the first place. And I, you think, how did you ever get on

the Tube in the first place? And they’re trying to, but then they’re obviously, tThey’re

obviously having to solicit people to give them a hand at every flight of stairs because

they’re about this big and the bag’s like enormous. Sorry, yeah.

MV: The performative element though, I think is very fascinating, because this is

something which, in a way t. Talking about it is n’ot a whole lot of use really, ; you

have to actually do it, don’t you? It’ is a kind of practical intelligence thing and you

have to get a

Michael Landy Yeah.





A feel for it and the sense, and the, when you’re in the place, w. We all really do need to try out

an act of kindness on the way home I think, don’t we, just to sense it out, and do we

feel we’re offering someone a scam or, that’s really interesting, yeah.

Michael L:andy Well, as I said, I think it’s a helper’s high, isn’t it? People do

generate some, sorry, some kind of wellbeing from helping somebody else as well.

MV: Yeah, yeah.

I just wanted to raise a

... lots of questions ... carry on, yeah, yeah.

Oh sorry, just raise a quick one, hHaving been in conversation with you for a long time about

this project, Michael, one of the early things that struck me was that you drew

attention to how ‘kindness’ comes, as it shares a route root with ‘kinship’ and ‘kin’,

and how there’s there should be an equality in, or there should be, in an act of

kindness, where you’re treating someone as if they’ are kin. And just throwing this

goes back to the this idea around, that it’s been expressed, of about how you’re

accepting your own vulnerability and you’re accepting that the other person’s

vulnerability in order to exchange that act of kindness, and how that exchange is

something that this project is also focused on finding out about. But whether or not,

well mMy experience is, coming out of this and reading so many of these stories, is the

feeling that there’s there are alternative models of how to be a human that are being

thrown up by these stories;, they’re not all the same model but – a lot of them are

alternatives to the idea that we’re supposed to be independent and autonomous and

efficient, and all those things.





Michael Landy Yeah.

Which, I’m very thankful for being able to have the time to reflect on.

Have we got other thoughts or maybe we’ll look at some more, oh no great, excellent, yeah?

Man 1: Because Tamsin mentioned that with on the London Tube, you

expect people to go out armoured with everything they need to get them to the other end

of their journeys. , and a question of context, dDo you think if you took the same idea to,

say, the Paris Metro, – another big metropolitan transport system, – would the same

passing of kindness would be expected? Or maybe just the physicality. I’m one of those

people that who has to hump a double buggy up and down steps and I just kind of go

through it on the basis that I’m owed this help because this transport system doesn’t have

enough lifts.

MV: So you think some Tube lines are intrinsically more kind than others? Particular

Tube lines, yeah, yeah.

M1: Certainly the Northern Line, surprisingly.

Yeah, yeah.

Michael L:andy Well I guess the Central Line, there’s that kind of commuters

coming in from Liverpool Street and obviously based around the city, so I, on the, yeah,

because I’m As the National Gallery artist- in- residence I normally take the District line,

but the Central Line, where there are commuters coming in from Liverpool Street and

based around the city,so it’s slightly, it’s, obviously the Central, it’s much more





compressed at certain times of the day, and people are more in, literally in their own

bubbles, and they’re just coming round to the day really, and yeah.

MV: I guess it’s about how our environment impacts our kindness. I get buses up and down

the Wharf Road a lot, and I swear the 36 bus is much nicer than the number 12 bus just

because of the people on it because, I don’t know why, it’s the same route at that bit, but

yeah. We maybe should be thinking about wrapping up now. I know there’s some,

couple of people leaving and so on, so maybe other people have got things to go on. But

Cathy, do you just want to

CH: I just wanted to tThank you both for your extraordinary insights and, and also a lot

of openness I think in which everybody has shared. So. And thank you all for your

fantastic stories and amazing insights and hilarious tales. So thank you very much

everybody.

[Applause]

END OF DISCUSSION



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