8001. d/sg .schoeman t - historical papers, wits university€¦ · was dr.m.m mothale. . and afte...

I

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8001. d/sgt .schoeman

elect delegates, we must attend to the demands of the peo- 1

pie The time has come when the Congress of the People

must issue its own manifesto. Mr.Chairman, in the past

the Congress Movement has been called all sorts of names.

It is urgent that all the Congresses must come together

and draw up a manifesto. I want to warn you that the ^

task before us is not an easy one. The Nationalist Govern-

ment will do their best to entrench themselves. The

Nationalist Government is riding the crest of the wave

to-day, but they can build no longer and must now decline.

Ours is a terrific potential, we have world opinion on our

side. All over the world people are striking against Im-

perialism. This must wake up Africa as a whole. We have

world opinion on our side. As the conflict sharpens there

will be a conflict of ideology and as that sharpens so

will the middle of the road policy pursued by some of the

political parties disappear. If you study the position

since 1946 you will realise that they will take our side.

Since then we have had the Defiance Campaign, we have seen

the formation of the Liberal Party, we have seen the birth

of the Congress of Democrats "

BEKKER J: Do you want the whole speech or only

a portion?

MR. TRENGOVE: I would like him to read the

whole speech, my lord.

BEKKER J: What for? 25

MR. TRENGOVE: To connect Beyleveld with all

the issues mentioned in the report, and also another

reason - this whole speech is mentioned in the Policy

Schedule.

RUMPFF J: Why don't you just take what the 30

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8002. D/SG-T. SWANEPOEL

salient features are in the speech that you want; why must 1

we listen to all this over and over again? You may have

been away but we have been here all the time.

MR. TRENGOVE: I ' l l endeavour to summarise the

speech, my lord-, in future.

RUMPPFJ: Anything in particular that you want down 5

have it, but not the whole speech. Ther̂ e is a lot of stuff

which at this stage is irrelevant.

MR. TRENGOVE; May I ask your lordship to allow him

to continue with this speech?

RUMPFF J: Yes, for a very short time and we'll 10

see what happens.

MR. TRENG-OVEs Yes my lord?— "The Nationalists

hope to cripple the National Liberatory Movement. This is

an illusion. These bannings. Once the people start march-

ing you cannot stop them. Just red world history. We all 15

believe that the policy of apartheid must disappear. We

will be able to build on our potential. To your Congress

and the other Liberatory Movements belongs the future. I

wish you all the success with your conference."

Who was the next speaker?— The next speaker was 20

A.E.Patel.

You mentioned this person before, did you?—Yes,

Will you read what he said?— He brought mes-

sages on behalf of the S.A. Indian Congress. He said

that the message should have been delivered by the Press 25

and the Secretary. ."

Yes, that's enough. And who was the next speaker

?— The next speaker was Stephen Phlamini.

Do you know Stephen Dhlamini?— Yes, I know him.

Was he an accused at the Preparatory Examination?—

lea.

8003. D/SGT.SWANEPOEL

Will you read the first portion of his speech9

"Ladies and Gentlemen, the Imperialists have lost a lot of

markets in the East, therefore they have come to South

Africa for new markets, but the lessons the Imperialists

have learnt in China they will soon learn in Africa."

And the next speaker?— The next speaker . . . .

Did you have a speaker B.S.M. Pillay?— Yes.

Do you know him9— Yes.

Was he one of the accused at the Preparatory Exa-

mination?— Yes.

Will you tell the Court what he said?— He said

that he brought greetings from the S,A.Congress of Trade

Unions. "For thelast six years we have seen the Nationa-

lists manufacturing a sort of jig-saw puzzle; they now

want to put this jig-saw puzzle into a plan but the work-

ers are not going to allow these political maniacs to

achieve their ends. . . "

Did he then discuss the African Congress of Trade

Unions?— Yes.

Now, that is all in respect of this meeting, my

lords.

RUMPFF J: What does it help to ask him if the

speaker discussed the S.A. Congress of Trade Unions?

MR. TRENGOVE; I want to show, my lord, that

the submission will be that this person was connected

with the S.A. Congress of Trade Unions.

RUMPFF J; By discussing it?

MR. TRENGOVE; Yes, my lord.

RUMPFF J: And if I'm discussing it with you

now, am I also connected with the S.A.Congress of Trade

Unions?

8004. D/SGT. swanepoel

MR. TRENGQVE; There will he other evidence, my lord,

that will connect him further with the S.A.Congress of

Trade Unions.

RUMPFF J: Yes,

MR. TRENGQVE; Now will you look at this document,

Exhibit G.481. Do you recognise the document?— Yes.

What is it?— It is a note made by me at the meeting

in the Bantu Social Centre in Durban on the 12th June,1955,

Did you make the note during that meeting?-- Yes.

What meeting was it?— It was a meeting called by

the Natal Action Council of the Congress of the People.

It was a Regional meeting of the Durban Region.

What do your notes relate to?— My notes relate to

names of the speakers, people present and what booklets

were sold at the meeting.

And do your notes correctly reflect what took place

there?— They are only a summary of the actual speeches.

And do you have any independent recollection of

this particular meeting?— No.

If you refer to your notes will it assist you to

refresh your memory?— Yes.

May this witness refer to his notes, my lord?

RUMPFF J; Yes.

MR. TRENGQVE: Can you tell the Court who was

the chairman?— The chairman was Dr.W.Z, Conco.

And referring to your notes, what did he say?—

He said the meeting was called by the Natal Action Coun-

cil of the Congress of the People; it was a Regional

meeting for the Durban Region and he said the people

might be surprised at the small number of people present..."

Yes; and did he introduce a certain person?—

8038-. D/SGT. SWANEPOEL

Yes, he did.

Whom did he introduce?— He introduced a Mr,P,T.

May Dr. Mothale and Mr Resha.

That Dr.M.M. Patel?— Yes

Do you know him9— Yes,

Did he appear at the Preparatory Examination as an

accused?— Yes.

And Resha, did he mention Resha introduce him9—

Yes, he introduced Resha.

Did he only give the surname, or Christian names

as well?— No, I just gave the surnames. I just said Mr.

Resha.

And who spoke after Dr. Conco?— After Dr.Conco

Mr.M.T. Naicker read a message from Dr.G.M. Naicker.

Is that the same Naicker who you mentioned before

?— Yes.

And after Naicker who spoke?— Then Dr.Conco spoke.

He said he was grateful for the message from Dr, Naicker.

And who spoke then?— Then P .J . May spoke.

What language did he speak in?— He spoke in Zulu.

After May, who spoke9— Then Dr Conco spoke again.

What did he do?— He introduced Mr.Errol Shandy.

And who was the next speaker?— The next speaker

was Dr.M.M. Mothale.

And after Dr. Mothale?— After Dr.Mothale Dr.

Conco spoke again.

What did he say; will you tell the Court?— He

said he thanked Dr.Mothale for his message and " I shall

ask Mr. M.T.Naicker to take the chair in my absence."

And did M.C.Naicker then take the Chair?— Yes.

Who was the next speaker?— Mr.Errol Shandy spoke.

10

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30


And after him?— Then Mr. N.TfNaicker spoke.

What did he say?— He called on Mr. Robert Resha

from Johannesburg.

And who was the next speaker?— Mr Robert Resha

was the next speaker.

Will you read the first portion of his speech?

"Afrika, Afrika, Afrika, Myabuya: Freedom in our Life time.

I am glad to see that this is a representative gathering.

It has members of the Africans, Indians and Europeans, and

members of the Government. "

That's enough, omit the rest. Who spoke then?

Mr,. N.T.Naicker spoke. He thanked Re sha for his speech.

Then were certain announcements made; is that cor-

rect?— Yes.

Now you mentioned Dr, Conco; do you know him?—Yes.

Can you identify him?— Yes,

Will you do so?— He is accused No. 30.

Nov/ can you remember whether a shorthand writer -

stenographer, accompanied you to this particular meeting?—

Yes, I can.

Did you make a note?— Yes, I made a note.

Who accompanied you?— Mr, Langwich; he works

for the Natal Daily News.

That is all in respect of this particular meeting

my lords. This meeting appears in the Policy Schedule at

page 49. Now I hand you a document marked Echibit G.449,

can you recognise that document9— Yes.

What is it?— This document contains notes taken

by me at a meeting which was held on the 11th December,

1955, in the Barrett Hall, Durban.

What meeting was that?— If I can refer to my

8007. D/SGT. SCHOEMAN

notes, I could - - it was a meeting on behalf of the Con-

gresses; it was a meeting I take it of the A.N.C. and N.I .

C. and C.O.D.

And do your notes relate to what?— The proceedings

at the meeting, and people present.

Are your notes correct9— Yes.

Do you have any independent recollection of that

particular meeting?—No.

Will you, if you refer to your notes, refresh your

memory?— Yes.

Can the witness refer to his notes, my lord9

RUMPFF J: Yes.

MR TRENGQVE: Now, who was the chairman?— The

chairman was Mr. N.T, Naicker. He opened the proceedings.

Is he the same person you mentioned before?— Yes.

Will you read the first portion of what he said?—

He said "On behalf of the Congress I extend a greeting to

you . . . "

RUMPFF J: Of the Congress?— Of the Congresses, my

lord. "In these days when we are faced with police raids

and police intimidation it is very good to see you here.

Your being present is symbolic of the resentment against

the Government. It is also symbolic of the Congress spirit

of friendship and goodwill to all peoples. Congress policy

is well known to you all. To-day we meet to fire the

first shot in the Freedom Charter Campaign. This cam-

paign follows the great Historic Conference of the Con-

gress of the People held in Johannesburg in June this

year. South Africa in the last year has seen the growth

of democratic forces. To-day the anti-democratic forces

are confirmed against this Congress Movement. The Congress

r 8038-. D/SGT. SWANEPOEL

Movement has "been subjected to police raids., 1

If I may interrupt, did he then support the Free-

dom Charter and ask the people to support the Freedom Char-

ter?-. Yes.

And you also have a note of the names of persons

who attended the meeting?— Yes. 5

You have the name V.A Seedat?-- Yes.

Do you know V.A. Seedat?— Y$s, I know him well.

Was he an accused in the Preparatory Examination

?— Yes.

Do you also have the name Fatima Seedat?— Yes. lo

And P.H. Tamalane?— Yes,

Is he the same person you mentioned already?—Yes.

That's all in respect of this meeting, my lords.

I hand you a document marked Exhibit G.771, do you recognise

this document?— Yes

What is it?— Those are notes made by me at a meet-

ing.

What meeting?— At a meeting held in the Bantu

Social Centre in Durban on the 12th February, 1956.

And what meeting was it?— If I may refer to my

notes.

KENNEDY J : You can't remember offhand?— No.

It was a conference of the South African Congress of Trade

Unions, my lord.

MR. TRENGOVE: What do your notes relate to?

RUMPFFJ: Do you want him to refer to the notes

before he's been given permission to do so?

MR. TRENGOVE: No my lord.

RUMPFF J : Then why do you do so?

MR. TRENGOVE: Do your notes reflect what took 5Q

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place at the meeting?— Yes. 1

And are your notes correct0— Yes

Do you have any independent recollection of what

took place?— No.

If you refer to your notes would you be able to

refresh your memory?— Yes 5

May this witness refer to his notes, my lord9

RUMPFF J: Yes.

MR. TRENGOVE: Now, referring to your notes who

was the chairman?—

RUMPFF J: What meeting was it?— It was a con- 10

ference of the S.A.Congress of Trade Unions, my lord.

MR. TRENGOVE: And who was the chairman?— The

chairman was Stephen Dhlamini.

Is that the same person whom you mentioned before?—

Yes, that is the same man I mentioned before. 15

And did he open the meeting9— Yes, he opened the

meeting.

And did he inform the meeting of messages from

fraternal organisations, which he read?— Yes.

And do you have the name of the speaker, Teswell 20

Moonsammy?— Yes.

Did headdress the meeting?— Yes.

On behalf of?— On behalf of the Natal Indian

Congress.

Just read the first portion of his speech?— He 25

said, " I bring greetings on behalf of the Natal Indian

Congress to this conference of the S.A.Congress of Trade

Unions."

Who was the next speaker?— The next speaker

was Stephen Dhlamini again. 30

Belts 52__& 53 8010. D/SGT.SWANBPOEL

What did he say?— He summed up the speeches of two

previous speakers and he said "On my right is Mr Masina,

the Secretary of the S.A Congress of Trade Unions".

Who was the next speaker?— Then Mr, Masina spoke

Do you know Masina9— I don't know him.

Will you refer to page 89 of your notes?—Yes.

Was that the same speaker, Masina?— Yes.

Now do you have the sentence, "We have speakers

here who will deal further with this matter"?-- Yes.

Now, referring to your notes from that sentence,

will you read what he said?— "We have speakers here who

will deal further with this matter. The S.A.Congress of

Trade Unions has called all its members toa Regional Con-

ference on 4/3/56 at . . . " I think 3.10 p.m. - I can't

make out the time - " . . . There will be a great rally at

the parade in Cape Town to demonstrate against this . . . "

I can't make out the word„ "Last Sunday there were con-

ferences in Johannesburg, Regional meetings were held in

P-arl, Wellington and such centres. Durban is having its

conference to-day It is the first of its kind to take

place in Durban This is not a conference of the lend-

ers only, but of workers, because we want to find out what

the workers think. I want to deal here with. . . "

Will you refer to your notes; did he indicate

that the S.A.Congress of Trade Unions was co-operating

with other organisations such as the S.A. African National

Congress, the Natal Indian Congress, the S.A.Congress -

the Coloured Peoples Organisation, and the S.A.Congress

of Democrats9— Yes.

And did he call on the people to unite?— Yes.

Do you then have a speaker V.S. M.Pillay again?—


Yes, my lords. 1

Now, referring to your notes did he support the

Freedom Charter?—

KENNEDY J: Who is Pillay?

MR. TRENGOVE: Have you mentioned Pillay before?—

I don't think so; he was also one of the accused in the ^

Preparatory Examination.

Now, referring to your notes did he support the

Freedom Charter?— Yes.

And did he also indicate that the African Congress

of Trade Unions was accepting the Freedom Charter, and sup- 10

ported it ; is that correct?— Yes.

And did you make a note of the names of persons

who attended that meeting?— Yes, I made a note.

Do you have the name B. Nair?— No, I don't see his

name - - oh, yes, B . I . Nair, I have his name. ^

Do you know him?— Yes, I know him well.

Did he appear as an accused at the Preparatory Exa-

mination?— Yes.

That is all in respect of this meeting, my lords.

The next meeting is mentioned in Policy of Violence Sche- 20

duly at page 17. I hand you a document, Exhibit G.761,

do you recognise this document?— Yes.

What is it?-- It is notes made by me at a meeting

When was this meeting held?-- The meeting was

held on the 22nd June, 1956, in Durban. 25

Can you say what meeting it was?— Not without

referring to my notes.

Are your notes correct?— Yes.

Do you have any independent recollection of this

meeting?— No. 30


If you refer to your notes will it refresh your

memory?— Yes.

May the witness refer to his notes, my lord?

RUMPFF J : Yes.

MR. TRENGQVE; Now, referring to your notes can

you say what meeting it was?— It was a Natal Indian Con- 5

gress Conference.

Held on the 22nd/24th June., 1956?— Yes. These

notes are in respect of the meeting on the 22nd.

Of June, 1956?— Yes.

Who was the Chairman at the meeting? Referring to

your notes?— The chairman was Mr.V. Lawrence.

And can you tell the Court whether a stenographer

accompanied you to that particular meeting, or conference?—

Yes, a Mrs. Wade went with me to the conference.

And did the chairman address the conference?—He 15

did, yes.

Will you read the opening remarks?— He welcomed

the delegates, specially Dr.A.E. Lothale who he described

as the Treasurer-General of the African National Congress.

He mentioned that the Freedom Charter had been adopted 2 0

since the last conference.

Yes, that's enough. Who was the next speaker?—

The next speaker was Dr. Lothale and his speech was

taken down by Mrs. Wade.

Did he open the meeting?— Yes; well, he was

the person who had been invited to open the meeting.

Who was the next speaker?— The next speaker was

Mr.Lawrence again.

What did he do?— He introduced Mr.N.T.Naicker.

As what?— As the Secretary of the Natal Indian


Congress. 1

And the next speaker?— The next speaker was Mr.

N.T.Naicker.

What did he do?— He read messages from various

people and organisations.

Will you mention the organisations from whom he 5

read messages?— He read messages from the Transvaal Indian

Congress, the S.A. Congress of Democrats, the S.A.Coloured

Peoples Organisation, the Natal Indian Youth Congress,the

S.A.Congress of Trade Unions.

The next speaker?-. Was Mr. Lawrence again. 10

Read what he said?— "Just as we regret the ab-

sence of Chief Letuli now must we equally regret the absence

of Lr.Naicker. His speech will be read by Dr Padiachee.

Who was the next speaker?— Dr.Padiachee, and

he read the speech of Dr.G.M. Naicker. 15

And thereafter?— Then Mr. Lawrence spoke again.

And after Mr. Lawrence?— They had a Zulu song.

Who was the speaker?— Margaret Haythorne spoke.

On behalf of the Congress of Democrats.

Andwho was the next speaker?— Then Mr. P.H. 20

Shemalana on behalf of the African National Congress.

What did he do?— He said, " I will read a mes-

sage from Dr. Conco, Deputy President of the Congress of

Natal."

Do you know such a person as Dr Conco, Deputy 25

President of the Congress of Natal?— Yes. . I know him.

Who spoke after Shemalane?— Prof. Leo Cooper

from the Liberal Party.

Andthereafter?— Then Mr. Hurbans who is the 30


Vice-President of the N . I .C . 1

Do you know Hurbans?— Yes, I know him.

Was he an accused at the Preparatory Examination?—

Yes he was.

And you identify him?— Yes

And who was the last speaker9— The last speaker 5

was Mr, N.T.Naicker. He adjourned the meeting.

That is all in respect of that meeting, my lords,

where notes were taken in longhand. Now, you have already

mentioned that you know the person V.A. Seedat who appeared

as an accused person at the Preparatory Examination9— Yes. 10

Do you know whether he was connected with any orga-

nisati on?— Yes, a s far as I know he was connected with the

Natal Indian Congress, and the Natal Peace Council.

Do you know whether he was an office bearer of any

of the organisations?— I think he was an executive member 15

of the Natal Indian Congress.

RUMPFF J : Do you know?— I cannot definitely

swear that this is so, my lord, but I have a recollection

that I have heard him being introduced as such at meetings.

MR. TRENGOVE: What about the Natal Peace Council 20

?— At one time he conducted the affairs of the Natal Peace

Council.

At what office, do- you know?—I searched his office

once or twice - he had an office in Pembrooke Chambers,

and it was the office of the New Age Newspaper 25

And was he in charge of the newspaper The New

Age?— Yes he was - at one time he was in charge, as

Durban agent, of that newspaper.

Do you know whether he was connected with the

Communist Party?— I 've often discussed these matters with XQ

8015. S/SGT. SWANEPOEL

him; he's never made any secret of the fact . . .

What fact?— That he was a Communist.

Do you know a person Billy Nair, you've mention-

ed him?— Yes.

Was he connected with any organisation?— Well,

he was connected with the Natal Indian Congress; he often

addressed meetings of the Natal Indian Congress„ He also

took part and I saw him at meetings, and I think he address-

ed meetings of the S A.Congress of Trade Unions,

Do you know whether he was in charge of any

office?— Well, he had an office at one timeat Heussens

Building which was the office of the S.A.Congress of Trade

Unions.

Did anybody occupy that same office?— Stephen

Dhlamini was in this office also for some time.

Is that the Stephen Dhlamini you mentioned pre-

viously?— Yes.

Now, you have mentioned a person M.P.Naicker?—

Yes.

Do you know whether he was connected with any

organisation? — M.P. Naicker, after Y.A.Seedat, became

the Durban agent of this Cape Town newspaper., The New Age.

About when was that, do you know?— I cannot

say - I'm not sure; I should think it was about 1956,

or thereabouts.

And do you know Dr. Mothale; you've already

said so, I think?—Yes.

Was he connected with any organisations?— As

far as I know he is connected with the Natal Indian Con-

gress. I saw him at meetings. He was also at a meeting

about which I gave evidence just now of the Congress of

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30

the People.

And you have mentioned G.H Hurbans?— Yes

Was he connected with any organisations?— Well,

I know him as a member of the Natal Indian Congress.

Was he an office bearer?— He was an office

bearer - I think Vice-President - - they have numerous

frice-presidents, this organisation. He is one of their

vice-presidents or he was at the time.

And the person P.H. Semalane you mentioned?—

Yes.

Do you know him?— Yes, I know him well; he

is a member of the African National Congress,

Was he an office bearer?— He was an office

bearer.

What was he?— At one time he was the Acting

Secretary for a while; and at one time he was the

Treasurer of the African National Congress in Natal.

When you say at one time, was that during the

time you were . . .?— It was during the time I was on

the staff; I cannot recollect exactly when.

Do you know a person E. Mamanane?— Yes, not

very well though. I have seen him at meetings of the

African National Congress.

Can you tell the Court whether the South Afri-

can Indian Congress had an office in Durban or not?— My

lords, I'm not - I think at one time there was a short

time during which - when Dr.Naicker first became the

Acting President of this organisation - - I think their

offices were at Durban at the time. I had occasion to

make enquiries about it once, but I cannot swear to this;

I did not definitely go to their offices.


Now, on the 5th December, 1954, did you proceed 1

to Pietermaritzburg?— Yes.

And when you arrived there what particular place

did you go to?— I went to the Regent Cinema in Longmarket

Street«

And did you enter the cinema?— Yes. 5

And what position did you take?— I took up a

position in the Projection Room.

After you arrived there what did you do?— I had

a tape recorder with me. I installed it in this Projection

Room. I connected it to a plug which is in the wall, and 10

there are apertures in the wall through which the film is

screened on to the screen; I put the microphone in one of

these apertures, connected the microphone with the machine,

and put the machine in readiness for when a meeting was - -

I had information that a meeting would start . . would be 15

held there on that day and I prepared my machine in readi-

ness for when this meeting would start.

Yes, and after you brought your machine in readi-

ness what happened?— At about 10 or half past 10, before

that people started coming into the hall. I could see 20

what was happening on the platform, and I could see a

portion of the hall itself. People came in and took up

positions in the hall. Other people came in and took up

positions on the platform.

About how big is this hall; can you give the 25

Court an indication?— About the size of this particular

Court room.

Yes, and after the people came in and some

took up positions on the platform, did the meeting com-

menced?— Yes, the meeting then commenced. 30

8018. D/SGT.SWANEPOEL "v

And what did you do?— Well, as soon as I could see

the meeting was starting I switched on the machine and .

And what did you make9— I made a recording, a tape

recording of what was said during the course of the next i

one and a half to two hours.

About what time did the meeting commence?— It com-

menced about 11 o'clock or a bit after 11 o'clock; near

11 o'clock, I'm not very sure.

RUMPFF J: A.M. or P.M?— A.M. my lord.

MR. TRENGOVE: The machine you used, is it before

Court?— It 's that machine there before Court (indicating).

Now when you made your magnetic tape recording could

you see the speakers?— Yes, from where I was I had a ve ry

good view of what happened on the stage. I could see every

speaker as they came up to the microphone to address the

meeting.

And could you hear what was said?— Yes, it was

very audible; they made use of a loud speaker, as I said.

It was quite audible from where I was.

And until when did the meeting continue?— The UP et-

ing itself continued until about 5 o'clock in the after-

noon

And how many tapes did you use?— I used two; one

for the forenoon and one for the afternoom.

Was there an adjournment for lunch?— Yes. The

first tape reflects the period from when the meeting

started, and until the meeting adjourned at about a

quarter past one, I think or a quarter to one - some-

where about then.

And ahout when did they resume again9-- They re-

sumed again at about 2 o'clock, shortly afterwards -


and carried on until about half past four or five o'clock. ^

And did you make magnetic tape recordings all the

time?— Yes, I made recordings all the time.

And at about 5 o'clock they adjourned?— Yes.

What did you then do?— After everybody had left

the hall I left the meeting and took the machine and tapes 5

with me.

And where did you go?-_ I went back; I was sta-

tioned at Durban.

And you have the magnetic tape now in Court?—Yes.

Will you hand it in?— Yes. 10

Exhibit G.1055, my lords.

RUMPFF J: Are they both one exhibit9

MR. TRENGOVE: My lord, only one tape is now being

handed in, my lords. The tape you now hand in at what time

did you record that?— That is the tape I made during the 1 5

forenoon.

And what happened to the tape you made after lunch

?— I kept that for some time and afterwards I discarded it.

It was not clear. It was a particularly hot day and I think

the machine became too hot, and during the afternoon - this 20

was in the form of a conference, people would address the

meeting from the floor, and they would not make use of the

loudspeaker and portions of it were clear and portions

were not clear, and I do not have that tape any more.

The next day did you do anything?— Well, as from 25

the next day I started playing back this tape and putting

it down in writing.

Didyou make a transcript?-- I did, yes.

Did you make a correct transcript?— Well, to the

best of my ability.


And you have the transcript now?— Yes.

Before you?— Yes, this is a photostatic copy.

It is marked G.1071?— Yes,

Now, on the transcript there appears certain names

of speakers; is that correct?— Yes.

Who inserted the names?— I inserted the names.

And some of the speakers were unknown to you, is that

correct?— Yes, they were not all known to me.

And have you indicated that on the transcript?—Yes,

where I did not know who the speaker was I put down 'Un-

known native male' or 'unknown Indian male', whatever the

case may be.

Now, referring to the transcript, when you made the

transcript did you still remember clearly who the speakers

were?— Yes; oh, yes.

Did you insert those names from memory?— And some

speakers were on the tape; it was also very clear - - the

chairman would say 'Mr. so-and-so will now speak'.

Now, referring to your transcript, who was the

chairman?— The chairman was Dr. W.Z. Conco.

Is he the accused you pointed out a little while

ago?— Yes

Did he address the conference?-- Yes, he acted

as the chairman.

My lord, I ask leave for this witness to play

the speeches of all speakers at this particular meeting;

that is, with the consent of the Defence, my lords.

RUMPFF J: Did the Crown originally want to

play a portion of the speeches, and was the Defence atti-

tude that if this is admissible and if the Court listens

to it then you could play the whole lot?

10

15

20

25

30


MR. TRENGQVE: Yes, my lord. The Crown intended to

ask your lordships leave to allow this witness to read from

the transcript and not to play anything hack

RUMPFF J : Oh, I see, you wanted to read portions

of the transcript.

MR. TRENGQVE: Yes, my lord.

RUMPFF J: What is the position, Mr. Kentridge?

MR. KENTRIDGE: My lord, the position is that we

checked these transcripts of all these meetings and we would

be quite content for the transcripts alone to be used, but

my learned friends have taken us into their confidence and

they have indicated that of some of the meetings they want

to play the actual recording in order to give your lord-

ships some idea, I think, of the atmosphere of the meeting

and the tone of the speakers. Once that is going to be

placed before your lordships we would like your lordships

to hear the atmosphere of this meeting and the tone of the

speakers.

RUMPFF J: Well, that is reasonable. How long

is this going to take?

MR. TRENGQVE: My lord, it will take about one

and a half hours. It 's recorded both ways, this tape,

and it will take about an hour and a half.

RUMPFF J : Yes; very well.

KENNEDY J : ' : Mr,Kentridge will it be neces-

sary to listen to the whole thing to get the atmosphere

or to half a meeting to get the atmosphere9

MR, KENTRIDGE: Well, my lord., I think one

could possibly do that perhaps by sitting next to my

learned friend and saying " " e l l , you can skip it now"

because the recording can be accelerated, my lord.


For instance, my lord, a lot of time was taken up "by sing-

ing of songs, and I think we could probably start a song

and then skip it , and similarly with some of the longer

speeches; we could perhaps play bits from the beginning,

the middle and the end. I think that could possibly be

done. There is a technical way of doing it , my lord.

The transcripts have got numbers corresponding to a dial

on the machine, and . . . .

BEKKER J : Unless, of course, you think it ' s neces-

sary for us to listen to the whole of a speech for half an

hour in order to get the atmosphere.

MR. KENTRIDGE: Well, my lord, I think that we

can judge as it goes on. I think it will be possible to

cut it down.

MR. TRENGOVE; May I proceed my lord9

RUMPFF J: Yes.

MR. TRENGOVE: The first speaker was Dr. Conco,

is that correct?-- Yes.

Will you now play his speech to the Court?

After a song Dr.Conco continued to speak in English . .

What did he say?— He said he had a few explana-

tory remarks to make He also said he wanted an inter-

preter, and an Indian male who I don't know spoke into

the mike and said 'Mr.Mabela, will you please come on to

the stage'; then Dr.Conco resumed his speech in Eng-

lish and it was translated into Zulu by a native male.

And will you continue from there, to play?

"Well, ladies and gentlemen, without wasting your time,

we have got amongst us here the man who is going to open

this conference, and hefore I go on to ask Mr Resha to

speak, I would like to introduce to you all the people

802% D/SGT. SWANEPOEL

who are here in front of you at the table. Mr. John

Hoogendyk, representing the Congress of Democrats from

1

Durban and Mr. Mungal, the secretary of the Mid-

lands Region of the Congress of the People (Applause) and

thirdly the man who is about to speak to you, Mr. Robert

Resha (Applause) who is on the National Executive and a

member of the secretariat of the African National Congress

and also the president of the Youth League of the African

National Congress and many other organizations.

Mr. Resha is from Johannesburg. On my left is Dr. Motala,

my colleague in the profession. He is the chairman of 10

the Congress of the People Committee, Midlands Region. They

are joint chairman with Mr. Archie Gumede, on my right.

(Applause). Miss Mkize from Durban, stalwart of all the

organizations, the African National Congress Durban and the

15

Women1s League in Natal. (Applause). Mr. N.T. Naicker,

Durban secretary of the Natal Indian Congress and Mr. Mabida,

joint secretary of the Congress of the People, Midlands

Region. And before I call on Mr. Resha to officially open

this meeting, I will aek you to give the call of the

organization which sponsered this movement. AfrikaI 20

Afrika! And I will now call upon Mr. Resha to open this

Conference of the Congress of the People, Midlands Region.

(Applause).

Will you play his speech please?— Yes.

(Recording): "Afrika! Afrika! Mayibuye! Mr. Chairman

and friends. Allow me to bring to this conference warmest

fraternal greetings from the African National Congress and

from the African National Congress Youth League. I gladly

accepted the invitation to open this important conference

Who is the next speaker ?— r "

25

8024. D/SGT. SWANEPOEL

because I regarded it as an honour, for the venue of the 1

conference and it ' s very composition symbolises the

turning of the wheels of freedom. Friends we are meeting

here today at a crucial time in the history of mankind.

We are meeting at a time when the world is divided into_

two hostile camps. On the one side are the forces of 5

progress, freedom and democracy, advancing day by day in

their noble fight for laughter in the world, while on the

other side the forces of reaction, oppression and fascism

determined as they are to wage war notwithstanding the

threat of extinction with the world's safety as the result 10

of the existence of atomic bombs and hydrogen bombs. The

latter forces of course, are shrieking for response.

On the occasion, on occasions like this, we must not over-

look the masses of people of Asia who have succeeded in

driving imperialists out of their country and show solidarity 15

with those who are still engaged in struggles to uproot

imperialism in action, for through their victory, humanity

stands to benefit. Even now the freedom-loving people of

China are threatened with another war by the Imperialist

America, under the pretence that they are defending Formosa, 20

when in fact they are defending their stooge, a criminal,

Chiang Kai-Shek. We hope and pray that wiser counsel will

prevail and that America will stop interfering with China.

If of course America is still what happened to

their forces in Korea will be repeated by the people of 25

China in greater force, for let us be assured friends that

there is no force in the world to stand before the marching

force of the forces of freedom. While they rejoice over the

victories over the people of Asia and other continents, and

disregard their struggle for freedom and national 30


independence, let us also realise that the driving away 1

of the imperialists from Asia and other places will place

into grips the markets of Africa with imperialists, i f

they allow them to make Africa another war arsenal. Already

America is "building war bases in many parts of Africa.

5

France is definitely trying to destroy the liberatory forces

in Tunisia and Morocco. Britain has for quite a year under-

taken a war with our brothers in Kenya. It is here that

some of the worst crimes have been committed by the British

soldiers under the pretext that they are combating the so-

called Mau-Mau terrorists. A great son of Africa, Jomo

Kenyatta and other leaders of the people are now languishing

in gaol. Thousands of innocent souls are in the concentra-

tion camps forced on the of women

because they refused that their husbands were, belonged to

the Mau-Mau. Children have been shot. All these atrocities 15

are committed of course in the name of democracy, for by

democracy the imperialists mean the oppression of the Colonial

people. They must therefore understand that this jungle

method that employed Her Majesty's Air Force to make Africa

the battlefield for future imperialist wars 20

(COURT ADJOURNED.)

BELT 54 8026.

26/1/1960

D/SGT.SWANEPOEL

MR. v.d. WALT; May it please your Lordships,

I am continuing with the same witness, D/Sgt,Swanepoel.

Yesterday, when the Court adjourned you were playing the

speech of one Robert Resha Now, will you continue where

you stopped, that is on page 3 of the transcript?— Yes.

(Recording): "Prom the opening remarks you will realise

that our struggle for freedom and democracy in South

Africa is. . . of which the struggle is vertitable the

world over. In South Africa the people are facing a

crisis. Throughout their period of government the Nationa-

lists have shattered completely in frantic determination

implemented their policy of destroying every vestige

of human rights which the African in particular, ever

possessed. It 's of the non-European people has taken

the Nationalists nearer to their goal of crushing all

the people of South Africa under Fascist terrorism.

During the last six years ot the Nationalists rule in

this country, we have witnesses unprecedented racial

discrimination, and sessions of parliament have been

characterised by the pattern of legislation designed

to oppress the non-Europeans to suppress their aspi-

rations and their legitimate demands, and finally to

one who do not accept apartheid. At the end

of this process of course, South Africa will be a full

fledged Fascist State along the lines of Hitler's

Germany. This suppression of Communism Act

which has had us in suppression of the liberatory

movement in this country, many of us here have fallen

victims of this damning piece of legislation. They

have been prescribedm banned from attending gatherings,

banished and confined to certain areas As a result


of measures of this act, those dearly beloved leaders of

the people, in the names of Chief A .J . Luthuli, President

General of the African National Congress (applause), Dr.

G.M. Naicker, acting president of the South African Indian

Congress (applause), Mr. M.B. Yengwa, secretary of the

African National Congress (applause), Mr J.N. Singh, 5

secretary of the Natal Indian Congress (applause), Mr.

Debi Singh, Mr Simelane and Mr. Meer, and also most gentle

daughter of Africa, Fatima Meer. Yes friends, we are

missing here today that most industrious worker for

freedom, Mr. M.P. Naicker and many others who cannot 10

be with us here to-day, not because of their own will,

but Minister Swart has decided that they should not be

here. Lest we forget, let us make allowances today,

that these men and women, sons and daughters of this

soil, will be with us long after Swart with his police,

with his government, with his militia and all the oppres-

sive laws, shall have vanished from the. . . . (applause) .

The Bantu Education Act, which is the destruction of

education for the African people, and an instrument of

cheap labour, like the Labour Bureaux, Native Labour

Settlement of Disoutes Act, Native Recruiting Corpora-

tion, farm gaols and youth camps, it is the most inhuman

piece of legislation ever to be enacted in this country".

KENNEDY J: Mr. v.d. Walt, the blanks at the

top of page 4, second line, so far as I know, should 25

read "boiling water has been poured on the breasts of

women". I don't know if my learned brothers agree with

what I hav e.

MR. v.d. WALT; I accept that, my lord.

RUMPFFJ: How much more of this spedh must * 30

15

20


be read in?

MR. v.d. WALT: Nothing more from this particular

speaker, my lord. But I ' d like to put a question or two

in connection with the speech to the witness, my lord.

Now will you refer to page 5 of the transcript. Is it cor-

rect that he continued to condemn the Bantu Education Act

?— Yes.

And will you look at the second paragraph; did

he continue to discuss the Congress of the people, and

to give a historic review of the Congress of the People?—

Yes.

I have nothing to ask my lord, but it is re-

quested by the Defence that the witness should play back

from the same speech as from page 6, about ten lines from

the bottom, and I ask the witness to go to 4-60.

RUMPFF J : Is this also for atmosphere?

MR. V.D. WALT: It is at the request of the Defence

MR. KENTRIDGE: I don't know whether the Court

is interested in the atmosphere or tone of meetings and

speakers, my lord . .

RUMPFF J: Yes, well, we've heard now, the speech

MR. KENTRIDGE: My lord, the point so far as

the Defence is concerned, is that a dull meeting is

just as good evidence as an interesting meeting, just

as important from the point of view of drawing infer-

ences. A tame speech is as significant as a fiery

speech and subsequently, my lord, I don't know whether

your lordships have really felt from this recording

that they have had enough to absorb some of the at-

mosphere . . .

RUMPFF J: Well, certainly, as far as this par-

meeting.

8029. D/SGT SWANEPOEL.

MR. KENTRIDGE: Yes, my lord. May I ask Mr.Swane- 1

poel to turn on to page 8 . my lords, at 6 4 6 , that is where

Dr. Conco somes in again.

RUMPFF J; Isthat for the content or for the at-

mosphere ?

MR. KENTRIDGE: That is for both, my lord. 5

RUMPFF J : Yes.

MR. v.d, WALT: I have no objection?— (RECORDING)

"Ladies and gentlemen, we are very grateful to have hnd

a man like Mr Resha to open our conference this morning,

I think he has made clear all those points which are left 10

to the speakers to be explained about this great gathering

we are having this morning and as we still have some

spe-ches before lunch. But before I commence on our pro-

gramme here, I want to thank Mr Resha for the way he has

presented to us the great conference of the Congress of 1 5

the People. And I am sure all the people inside here

will send greetings with Mr. Resha to the Transvaal, that

we here in the Midlands Region are carrying on the struggle

of the Congress of the People."

MR. KENTRIDGE: My lords, ae far as the 20

recording is now concerned I should be satisfied if

Mr. v.d. Walt were to skip tight to the bottom of page

13, where M.P. Naicker starts, that's No.301 on the re-

verse side of the page.

RUMPFF;J: Does the Crown want anything in 25

between?

MR. vd..WALT: Yes, my lord, but I ' l l summa-

rise what I want.

RUMPFF J: Yes.

MR. v.d. WALT: Now, after that speech of 3 0


Dr. Conco, were certain messages read?— Yes. ^

Can you tell the Court from whom the messages

were received?— Prom the African National Congress,

Transvaal; The Executive Committee of the African National

Congress, Transvaal;

Turn to the next page; just mention the orga-5

nisation?— The S.A. Congress of Democrats, head office.

The Cape Western Regional Action Council of the Congress

of the People; S.A. Indian Youth Congress; S.A. Peace

Council . . .

Will you read the message from the S.A.Peace ]_o

Council?— "Dear Friends, my Council accepts with pleasure

the invitation to send your first conference a fraternal

message. The South African Peace Council regards the

struggle for peace and freedom in South Africa as being

indivisible. The present Government not only oppresses 15

all those working for peace and liberation but it is also

part of the war-camp. They have allied themselves with

all those forces which are determined for war, attempting

to divide the people of the world into hostile camps and

afflict those who are actively engaged " ^

Then you've left out something?-- Yes.

The next organisation?— The African Laundry,

Cleaning and Dying Workers Union.

Leave that out. After the messages were read

did Dr. Conco address the meeting again?— Yes. 25

And after he spoke was there a speaker J .H.H.

Hoogendyk?— Yes, there was a speaker J .H .H . Hoogendyk.

Did he speak on behalf of any organisation?—

He said he spoke on behalf of the Congress of Democrats.

Then Dr. Conco spoke again, is that correct?— ^

Yes.


And after him a person M.P.Naicker sptke?—Yes. 1

Is that the same M.P. Naicker you mentioned pre-

viously?— Yes.

Now will you explain to the Court what he said?—

Ypq • Mr.Kentridge, do you want the whole speech or

5

just the beginning?—

MR. KENTRIDGE: I 'd like thebeginning, and then I

don't want the last page of his speech. That's all I re-

quire. I 'd like the beginning of the speech and then I

will ask Mr. Swanepoel to go to about five lines on page

15 - that is what I want ibr content in any event

MR. v.d. WALT: N.T Naicker's speech my lords,

will now start then, „ .

MR. KENTRIDGE: I would now ask, my lords, before

the record is played to have the next paragraphs on page

15, too, from "Whatever we do " 15

RUMPFF J: Do you want that played too?

MR. KENTRIDGE: My lord, as far as that is con-

cerned I want the actual content on the record, but I am

prepared to have that read in. As far as I'm concerned

I don't require any more playing over on the machine. 20

RUMPFF J : But you want this passage read?

MR. KENTRIDGE: Well, my lord, I ' l l do that in

cross examination. I will want it read.

RUMPFF J : Well, the Crown can read it in.

MR. v.d. WALT: Yes, Mr. Swanepoel?— (RECORDED) 25

"N.T.Maicker: Mr.Chairman, and friends, I have assumed

a role today which is not mine. I have to bring you the

sad news of the Natal Indian Congress. Most of you know

that six leaders, people who have held reins of office

for a period of ten years and gave the Indian people a 30

8032. D/5GT. SWANEPOEL

progressive and democratic lead in Natal, are today-

banned by Mr. Swart. Mr. Chairman it has fallen upon

me to convey to this Conference the greetings of the

entire membership of all those banned people, greetings.

I have a special message from my president who is languish-

ing in solitary confinement as a result of the ban. The ^

following is the message:- "This conference you are

> holding today is one of the most significant in the

history of our liberatory movement in Natal. It is

significant because of the fact that it is the inaugural

conference to mark the campaign of the Congress of the 1 0

People in the Midlands Area of the province of Natal. It

is an encouraging sign of growth of our liberation move-

ment when Indians, Africans, Europeans and coloured people

have become through their respective national organisations

co-sponsors of a multi-racial, all-South African assembly. i5

For the first time thousands of ordinary men and women

will elect their representatives to attend the Congress

of the People. For the first time they will have the

opportunity to discuss their own people's solution to

the problems of our country. Problems of the workers, 2C

farmers, housewives, professionals, miners, teachers,

students and others that make up our multi-national

community. How South Africa should be governed, who

should elect the men and women who make the laws of our

country, how these laws should be administered, these, 25

and other questions will be discussed not only in the

Congress of the People, but in the countless discussions

and meetings they will hold throughout the country.

It is these true expressions of the voice of the people

of this country, which will finally find its expression 30

8033. D/SGT. SWANEP0L1

in the people's freedom charteri The people can write

into this charter their claims to equality of opportunity,

political, social, economic, cultural and intellectual

of all men and women. Drunk with the power as a result -I'

of successive victories, the nationalist government has

marched on arrogantly along the road of domination, using

the undemocratic measures it has passed, viciously and

indiscriminately to stifle democratic forces in South Africa.

Banning orders have been issued by the dozens throughout

South Africa. Underlining these banning orders the

government has attacked five native freedoms : freedom of

speech, freedom of movement, freedom of association,

freedom of assembly and freedom to a free and fair trial.

Now is the time for each and every individual who lives

these precious freedoms to speak out clearly and without

hesitation against the wrongs that are being perpetrated

in this country. Our voices in the defence of the

democratic traditions must be heard far and wide. Mr.

Strydom's succession to Dr. Malan does not alter our

attitude. In fact it must increase our vigilance and

demands. We cannot afford to be robbed of our organiza-

tion and leadership and be denied the right of planning

There is turbulence in the air.

Every section, every man and woman is deeply imbued

to action. Let him who considers himself

a free man that he is a free man, for

there can be no compromise on the demands of the people

for freedom. We must proclaim these basic freedoms that

I have mentioned and other freedoms in the freedom

charter.

8034 D/SGT. SWANEPOEL

RUMPFF J : And now you want from page 15,

Mr Kentridge?

MR. KENTRIDGE: Yes, my lord.

RUMPFF Ji Read it in, Mr v.d. Walt.

MR. v.d. WALT; Yes, my lord. "Whatever we do

we must not veer from the path of non-violence. In the

struggle we have launched against segregation and apart-

heid we are strictly against violence, Mahatma Gandhi,

that great apostle and freedom-wisher gave us this lead.

He said it is superior to all other methods and even more

explosive than any hydrogen "bomb. It is a weapon of self

defence, self-expression, and liberation of the people.

Not of territorial aggression or exploitation of another.

In the process of mass-education the most expensive gift,

offering an inherent guarantee of the permanence of its's

achievement, in that it strengthens each individual par-

ticipant by bringing to him a consciousness of his latent

power and a realization of his unity of interest with his

fellow man. Mr. Chairman and Friends, my message to you

this morning is : Go ahead, although I am not with you in

person, my spirit is with you. You must tell the Nationa-

list Government and all the anti-democratic forces in

this country that we will not be dragooned into silence,

(applause). I ask your conference to condemn most

strenuously and vehemently the action of the Minister

of Justice in indulging in mass bannings and deporta-

tions of the peoples' leaders. In conclusion let me

reiterate. As loyal South Africans we have a real duty

to all the peoples of South Africa, we have to build

up the tradition and spirit of non-violence.., . . ."


"The loyalty to certain fundamental values fostered "by

democratically minded people of all classes and racial

groups who have found a home in this land, and on no

account we should be said to . . . . ."Since we are to

write on a new chapter in our history, we must neverthe-

less respect these grpat values, which are neither

national nor international, but universal. South Africa's

present position is a challenge and an opportunity. It

is my hope and faith that you will not be found lacking

in vision, courage and strength to meet that challenge

and use the opportunity. (Applause)," Then Dr.Conco

spoke in English. That is all I have to ask this wit-

ness, my lords.

MR KENTRIDGE: My lord, before I cross examine

this witness I should inform your lordships as I should

have earlier, that accused No.21, S. Tyiki was late this

morning He only came into Court at 10.15 a.m. He lives

near Roodepoort and on the way from there to the bus the

car in which he was travelling broke down. He made his

way here as quickly as he could, and he tenders his

apologies, my lords.

RUMPFF J : Yes.

XXD. BY MR. KENTRIDGE: Mr. Swanepoel, this meeting of

which you have played us the tape, was, as appears

from Dr.Conco's opening address, as you have it on

your tape, a Delegates Conference and not a public

meeting?— Yes.

It was a private meeting?— Yes.

And I take it that is why you had to conceal

yourself?-. Yes.

Your presence was not known to the meeting?—No.


Mr. Swanepoel, I 'd just like you to have in 1 «

front of you, if you would, the transcripts of your

notes which you had yesterday with regard to other meet-

ings?— Yes.

Do you recall those on which you gave evi-

dence?— Yes.

That is G.764, G.765, G.481, G.449, G.1171

and G.761?— Yes.

You have them?— Yes.

RUMPFF J : If we are going to continue, I think,

Mr. Kentridge, Counsel and the witness will have to speak

right into the microphone.

MR. KENTRIDGE: Yes, my lord. Now, Mr.Swanepoel,

G.764, those were the notes taken hy you at a meeting of

the S.A. Indian Congress in Durban on the 9th July,1954

?— Yes. 1 5

Now, there you made a note of a number of people

who were there?— Yes.

You have according to your notes Dr.Naicker

was there, in the first column of your notes of people

present?— Yes. 20

A.J . Lethuli?— Yes.

M.B. Yengwa?— Yes.

Then at the top of your next column Mannelan

Ghandi? Do you see that? — Yes, that's right.

As you said yesterday, Mr. A.J . Lehtuli spoke 25

and his speech was translated into Zulu?— Yes.

Now, you took down what he said; would you

look at the second page of your transcript?— Yes.

Among the things he said was this: "We believe

South Africa is the possession of us all, that we invite ^0


i

our fellow White South Africans - - I mean the 2,500,000

whites - whether they help us or not, we regard them as

fellow South Africans. Our policies must be such as re-

gards them also - some of us mean it , we mean it - I cannot

give a further . . . " then you have a question mark I

take it you couldn't make out what he said, then "This

land is wide enough for all of us. There is absolutely

no need to call for immigrants, there are enough of us

here. We in the A.N.C. say let us create conditions where

we can live happily; we work hard to obliterate these

ideas of Europeans only." Do you find that? Do you

have your original hand written copy, Mr. Swanepoel?— I

just have the original notes here, not the transcript.

So you don't have it typed out?-- No, I don't have

the copy of it typed out.

Oh, we have been supplied with a typed copy.

Well, Mr. Swanepoel, I'm putting it to you that it is

there and I take it that my learned friends for the Crown

are able to follow.

MR. v.d.WALT: That is so, my lord.

MR. KENTRIDGE: Then later on, according to

your transcript, with which we have been furnished, is

said this: "We are glad that from the white people more

and more say that this cannot go on I am not thinking

of just the congress of democrats, but of all liberal

people. We appreciate their efforts in trying to break

away from white public opinion," and then, after giving

some figures about sub-economic wages and public services

and the cost of living, he says "This is all the outcome

of political slavery. -.You must have political rights.

You must have a way of bringing power to bear on the


Government. If the women in England could not trust their

husbands to safeguard their interests, how can we trust

other people? That is our task. Figit, fight, so that

eventually we will have our franchise rights." Then later

on in this speech, in the transcript, on page 3 of the

typed transcript in the second paragraph, you have this

in your notes: "When you are banned it is nothing; worse

is still coming. In the Nationalist Parliament we are

faced with people who will stop at nothing to achieve their

aims. Mr. Swart has said that if we want power one must

keep it by force of legislation. Legislation by people

who are not there. He has said on more than one occasion

that the police must shoot and hit; if that is not incite-

ment, I don't knw what is. No one in our Congress has

ever suggested violence. I shall fight anybody in Con-

gress who suggests force, Yet a Minister says 'Hit and

shoot'. All this arises from a desire to Iceep us down."

And later in the last paragraph on the same page you have

this in your notes: "Our task is to teach these people

never to be discouraged. You will be called names. The

politician will be an agitator. How will we ensure that

this will be done? By means of the spoken word. We

must build up a common democratic stand. I must here

commend to you and invite you to take an interest in the

Congress of the People where all people of all nationali-

ties will get a chance to express themselves." "We sup-

port the fight of oppressed people elsewhere. How can a

true democratic people fail to take an interest in the

sufferings of people elsewhere9 I am as much concerned

with their sufferings as I am with my own liberation.

Never deter from the path of strengthening the democratic

8039. D/SGT. SWANEPOEL

front; let people say what they think about us. The his- i

tory of humanity is one of fighting from slavery to free-

dom. Like Washington we say 'Up from slavery'." Then,

if I may just refer you to something on the same page a

little earlier, without reading it in detail - - he

mentioned that we were the "inheritors of the 1949 pro- 5

gramme of action" . You have that in your notes?-- Yes.

Then on page 4 of the typed version of your

notes the end of what you have of Mr. Lethuli's speech

is : " I notice with appreciation the stand of seven Asian

countries. We realise that they have no ambition to come 10

and colonise South Africa; they know of the sufferings

that entails. We the A.N.C„ have confidence in your

leadership; we are resolved not to turn back, we are

glad to have people such as you as our allies. I have

the greatest pleasure in declaring the 21st Conference 15

open, Myibuya, Afrika." Then after that there was,

according to your transcript, thanks by Dr.Naicker to

Lethuli, then a speech by Dr. Walheim on behalf of the

Liberal Party, and then you read, or you mention mes-

sages which had been received from certain organisations 20

but in addition there were messages from individuals

such as A. Creech-Jones, Rev. Michael Scott, Patrick

Duncan, Freda Thorpe - you have a number of them?—Yes.

Mr.Swanepoel, I don't want to refer any further

to that transcript. Would you look at the one which you 25

dealt with next, that is G.765. That is the 8th Annual

Annual Conference of the Natal Indian Congress on the

25th March, 1955. Do you have that?— Yes.

Now on page 3 of the typed transcript you have

a speech by A.E. Patel in which he speaks of opposition 30

BELT 8040. D/SGT.SWANEPOEL

to Nationalist Legislation?— Page 4, 1

Is it your page 4?— Yes,

Do you see A.E. Patel?— Yes.

It 's on page 3 of the typed transcript and he said

thjs: "Now we see that men like Pr Naicker, Mr.Katchalia

and Mr, Nanabeta are banned under this Act", that is the 5

Suppression of Communism Act "Now you see young and

new men who have he en elected to carry on the struggle.

Many people in 1948 decided to leave this country. The

non-Europeans knew what was in store for them. We have

opposed every hit of legislation aimed at us . . . " and 10

then he deals immediately with the Group Areas Act. He

says: "Since 1950 Dr. Donges has not been able to imple-

ment the Group Areas Act. Yesterday you must have read

in the Press that Mr. de Vos Hugo decided to recuse him-

self. If we carry on the way we have been doing since 15

1948 I can only see victory ahead of us." Then you had

a number of other speeches by different people of which

you have short notes. There is nothing in them, Mr.

Swanepoel, that I need you to read out. But would you

now look at your Exhibit G.481. That was a Congress 20

of the peoples meeting at Durban on the 12th June,1955;

aocording to your notes there was a number of people

present including Dr.Conco, Dr.Mothale, N.C.Naicker,

R.Resha, and a number of other people?— What is the

number of that Exhibit? 25

G.481?— Yes.

Now it was at this meeting that you were accom-

panied by Mr Langwidge?— Yes.

A shorthand writer?— Yes.

Now I don't know whether you know but apparently 30

Collection: 1956 Treason Trial Collection number: AD1812

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