29th March 2003 1

What are Discrete Degrees?

Ian Thompson, Physics Dept., University of Surrey

Talk to the Swedenborg Society: Spring Meeting, 29th March 2003

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Importance of Discrete Degrees A knowledge of discrete degrees is needed

for understanding the differences between: the three heavens, the love and wisdom of the angels in them, the warmth and light that they possess, the interior faculties of the mind, reformation and regeneration,

something spiritual and something natural. Swedenborg: Divine Love and Wisdom, §185

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Our ideas of Discrete Degrees The ideas we each have are many and

various!

So the purpose of this talk: to look at typical ideas often held, to clarify any misconceptions, to suggest new ways of looking at discrete

degrees, contrast them with continuous degrees.

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Kinds of Explanations we like? We are happier with explanations giving:

integrated view of natural and spiritual worlds, unified view of a continuous whole & no gaps, democratic rather than hierarchical levels, simple pictures of what we need to know.

BUT, Swedenborg reminds us: there are discrete degrees, and there are distinctions of divine, spirit & nature.

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How we Form our First Ideas Our initial ideas are all based on ideas that

we can obtain from our senses. So we use images obtained from sensations of space

and time, spatial and temporal images attach themselves to

our ideas of discrete degrees,

Spaces & times must not dominate our ideas! though space and time images often correspond to

discrete degrees.

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Imagining Discrete Degrees Discrete degrees have

been imagined in many different ways: spatial images time & frequency states of nature inside and outside bounded and unbounded

Qualitative differences: do they make discrete

degrees?

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What are Discrete Degrees?

Continuous Degrees: like the degrees of the

waning of light from a bright blaze until it is obscured, or

like the degrees of the decrease of vision from objects in the light to those in the shade, or

like degrees of purity of the atmosphere from its depths to its highest point.

Discrete Degrees: like prior and

posterior, like cause and effect,

or like what produces and

what is produced. exist distinctly influx by

correspondences

MAY be continuously transformed into each other.

Can NOT be continuously transformed into each other.

HH 38

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Natural things with discrete units: Are these discrete degrees? Ladder Multi-storey house Human body

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Discrete, or Images of Discrete? Houses, ladders, bodies,

all represent different discrete degrees by correspondences. BUT: from looking at human bodies, as from

biology alone, we do not thereby understand what are spiritual degrees.

Houses etc represent: in simultaneous order of continuous degrees

what are discrete degrees in ‘successive order’.

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The whole and its parts

the body is the parts,

the soul is the whole organism ?

Perhaps:

But:

the soul would be an aggregation of bodies!

which controls which?

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Expanded Consciousness

Expanded or Cosmic consciousness as the spiritual? Dynamics of mind is

expansion, contraction.

But: size is continuous!

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Elevated Consciousness

Higher vs low-level awareness? Dynamics of mind is

elevation & depression.

But: height is continuous!

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The Fourth Dimension?

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Another Spatial Dimension?Are physical and mental different dimensions?

From J.R. Smythies, 1967

But: Rotations continuously

transform between dimensions!

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New Vibrational Frequencies?

Is a ‘new vibrational level’, or a ‘new harmonic’ a discrete degree?

But: time is continuous, and so are vibrational rates!

From Swedenborg, we say: vibrations are a temporal images, seen in and from the senses

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Harmonics and Resonances

Are discrete degrees one of Vibrational harmonics? Energy levels of atoms?

But: resonances are different time frequencies,

And: intermediate rates are possible (see figures)

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Infinite Time — No Time ?

Endless time?

All times are Present?

Heavenly eternity is the source of all succession of states, not all states together, and not lack of succession

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Successive Stages?

Images of waterfalls or emanations are often used to represent ‘successive discrete degrees’:

•Swedenborg often uses calls discrete degrees: ‘successive degrees’.•True, but this is another representation using ‘time’.•Still ‘simultaneous’ in some senses!

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States of Matter?

Earth, Water, Air, Fire?

Solids, Liquids, Gases?

Fine & Subtle Matter?

Matter & Electricity?

Positive & Negative Charges?

Are these Discrete Degrees?

Polarities are at thesame natural degree.

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Inside and Outside

Inmost, Internal, Outer?

First-person and third-person views?

Is our mind the way we are inside,and our body our outside?

Is our mind the way we see ourselves,and our body the way others see us?ANDREW MARC SAMUELS

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Self-similarity

But: self-similarity as such does not define the spiritual.

“Parts are similar in form to the whole”

seen in Chaos Theory.

Also occurs in the spiritual world: Man is an image of the

heavens, and the heavens are an

image of God.

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Are ANY pictures suitable? We need to separate our understanding, in

some way, from natural and sensual images. This separation may never be complete on

earth, but: let us at least be aware of the way we

presently think.

Let us try to form some more positive accounts …...

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To understand discrete degrees: build on and extrapolate what discrete

degrees discovered by physics and philosophy, or

rely on our own intuitive understandings of causes and effects in ourselves, or

rely on revelation from the Lord to guide us over a difficult phase. Preferably, some combination of the above!

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Heat and Light (?) Strictly: are parts of the

same spectrum of electromagnetic radiation:

BUT: Heat = energy in general (not just radiation) Light = form of energy conveying information

Energy and Information are discrete degrees. Light is a particular form of energy.

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Discrete Pairs from Physics Classical Mechanics:

Force and Motion Potential Energy and Force

Quantum Physics: Waves and Particles Propensities and Events

Quantum Fields: Virtual and Actual Processes

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Form and Substance

For any idea a person forms, however lofty, is substantial, that is, attached to substances.

No substance can exist without being a form.

Nor is there such a thing as an unformed substance, since nothing can be predicated of it,

A subject without predicated qualities is also an irrational entity. (CL 66)

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End, Cause and Effect

Ends are in the first degree, causes in the second, and effects in the third. the end is not the cause, but that it produces the cause, the cause is not the effect, but that it produces the effect;

So: they are three distinct things following in order -- The end with man is the love of his will, for what a man

loves, this he proposes to himself and intends; the cause with him is the reason of his understanding, for by

means of it the end seeks for mediate or efficient causes; and

the effect is the operation of the body from them.

ISB 17

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Affection, understanding, action Discrete degrees within the spiritual:

Affection from love, Understanding from wisdom, Action from both these.

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Soul, mind and nature

Or: Discrete degrees - Love in the Soul, Thoughts in the Mind, Actions in Nature.

Love and thoughts (soul and mind) not in space, only the appearance of space.

Do we see Soul, Mind and Natureas layers of material in space??

Which?

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Love, Wisdom and Use

In the Divine, these are: Father, Son and Spirit. Can these be put together in one picture?

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Conclusions

Many natural degrees are continuous and not discrete as often thought eg those from space, time, matter, …

Other natural degrees are discrete, so helpful to understand other degrees eg substance/form, energy/information, …

Still need insight and help to understand the important spiritual/natural discrete degrees!

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References to more details Theistic Science website:

www.TheisticScience.org My home page at Surrey University:

www.ph.surrey.ac.uk/~phs1it/ Discrete Degrees (article)

www.TheisticScience.org/discrete_degrees.html

This talk: www.TheisticScience.org/talks/dd/