2:13-cv-05090 #129 - transcript june 25 2014

8/11/2019 2:13-cv-05090 #129 - Transcript June 25 2014

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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

EASTERN DISTRICT OF LOUISIANA

JONATHAN P. ROBICHEAUX, et al. * Docket 13C!"#$#* c%& 1'C!##$(

)e++ * 1'C!#3-(*

JAES D. CALD/ELL, et al. * Sect0o F** Je -", -#1'

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

TRANSCRIPT OF ORAL AR2UENT BEFORETHE HONORABLE ARTIN L.C. FELDAN

UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUD2E

Aeaace+4

Fo t5e Pla0t066+4 Stoe P078a /alt5e /0tt8a, LLCB94 DALTON COURSON, ES:.

BROO;E C. TI2CHELAAR, ES:.

JOHN . LANDIS, ES:.LESLI D. HARRIS, ES:.AURINE /ALL, ES:.

"'< Cao=elet SteetNe& Olea+, Lo0+0aa (#13#

Fo t5e Pla0t066+4 La& O660ce o6 R0c5a= Pe>e, LLCB94 RICHARD 2. PER:UE, ES:.(## Ca8 SteetNe& Olea+, Lo0+0aa (#13#

Fo t5e Pla0t066+4 SCOTT J. SPI!E9, ES:.A Po6e++0oal La& Cooat0o?1" Da50e Steet, S0te DNe& Olea+, Lo0+0aa (#11. . -3

Dalto Co+o, E+>. '#

Co6eece 0 C5a8e+ "3

1

-

3

'

"

al Potect0o Cla+e.

T5e+e la&+ al+o 0607e o t5e la0t066+

6=a8etal =e oce++ 075t+, &50c5 0cl=e t5e0 075t to

8a@, t5e0 075t to e8a0 8a0e=, a= t5e0 aetal

075t+. I=ee=, +0ce t5e Se8e Cot+ =ec0+0o la+t +88e

0 Windsor, 13 ot5e 6e=eal =0+t0ct cot+ 5a)e o& 5el= t5at

+tate a+ o t5e celeat0o o eco70t0o o6 +a8e+e

8a0a7e+ ae co+t0tt0oal.

THE COURT: I cote= 11. /5at ae t5e ot5e t&o

a@e I 5a)e 80++e= a cole.

R! COURSON: 9o Hoo, 0 o o070al 0e6 &e

c0te= te, a= t5e &e c0te= t5ee a==0t0oal 0 t5e el@.

It+ a e)ec5a707 8e, 9o Hoo. /e +t ece0)e=0 9

10 7

-0 7

30 7

'0 7

"0 7


7/72

(

ecet =ec0+0o+ 0 Oe7o a= Pe+@l)a0a.

THE COURT: I8 6a80l0a &0t5 Pe+@l)a0a, ot

Oe7o. Noe o6 @o ae+ 8et0o t5e Sevcikca+e 6o8

Ne)a=a.

R! COURSON: 9o Hoo, t5e Sevcikca+e &et to

t5e N0t5 C0c0t, a= Ne)a=a 5a+ =oe= 0t+ aeal 0 l075t

o6 t5e N0t5 C0c0t+ 5ol=07 0 Smithklinet5at +eal

o0etat0o cla++060cat0o+ ae +ect to 5e075tee= +ct0@.

T5at &a+ a eWindsorca+e a+ &ell, 9o Hoo.THE COURT: /5ate)e Windsor5el=.

R! COURSON: /ell, 9o Hoo, &e el0e)e t5at

Windsor5el= t5at +eal o0etat0o cla++060cat0o+ ae

+ect to 5e075tee= +ct0@. It ceta0l@ al0e= a

at0oal a+0+ e)e 06 t5e Cot =0+a7ee+ &0t5 + aot t5e

5e075tee= +ct0@.

THE COURT: I+ 0t 6a0 to +a@ t5at Windsor+ot o6

o66e+ a l0ttle +o8et507 a= a l0ttle 5oe to ot5 +0=e+

R! COURSON: /ell, 9o Hoo, t5ee &a+ a

6e=eal0+8 +ta= ceta0l@ to Windsora= a e>al otect0o,

=e oce++ 075t+ +ta=. At t5e e= o6 t5e =a@, t5e Windsor

Cot cla08+ el0ace o 6e=eal0+8 a= 5el= t5at Co7e++

0t+0o 0to t5e +tate =o8e+t0c elat0o+ o&e &a+ =0)e @

a =e+0e to 5a8 a ol0t0call@ ola 7o. A=,

t5ee6oe, 0t &a+ lt08atel@, at t5e e= o6 t5e =a@, a e>al

otect0o a= =e oce++ =ec0+0o. T5at+ &5at J+t0ce1 0

10 9

-0 9

30 9

'0 9

"0 9


8/72

?

Scal0a eco70Ge= 0 50+ =0++et a+ &ell.

THE COURT: I &a+ &o=e07 5o& lo7 0t &ol= take

+o8eo=@ to c0te J+t0ce Scal0a. 2o a5ea=.

R! COURSON: F0+t I &ol= l0ke to talk >0ckl@

aot t5e =0+te= 6act+, t5e talk aot t5e at0oale+ t5at

t5e ca+e 5a+ t 6o&a=, a=

THE COURT: I =ot t50k t5ee ae a@ 6act+ 0

=0+te.

R! COURSON: No, 9o Hoo.THE COURT: I =ot t50k @o ee= to &o@ aot

t5at.

R! COURSON: No, 9o Hoo, t I &ol= l0ke to

e85a+0Ge +t t5at Lo0+0aa 5a+ t&o cota=0cto@ 8a0a7e

e708e+4 oe 6o eco70t0o o6 5eteo+eal cole+ 6o8 ot

o6 +tate, a= a alteat0)e e708e 6o 7a@ a= le+0a cole+

6o8 ot o6 t5e +tate. T5e+e =0c5oto8o+ +c5e8e+,

=0+c080ato@ +c5e8e+, 08o+e ++tat0al 5a8+ o 8@ cl0et.

I &ol= e80= t5e Cot aot Seceta@

Ba60el=, oe o6 t5e =e6e=at+, 5a+ 0++e= a e)ee llet0

a= ta 0+tct0o+ e>007 8@ cl0et+ to =0+cla08 t5e0

8a0tal +tat+ o t5e0 ta et+ a=, t5ee6oe, 7ett07

=066eet0al teat8et.

It al+o 0+ ee++l@ cota@ to Lo0+0aa R.S.

'(4-$', &50c5 e>0e+ t5e +tate taa@e to 8atc5 t5e 6e=eal

et. T5e +eceta@ 0+, 0 6act, ca)07 ot a ecet0o to1 2

11 0

-1 0

31 0

'1 1

"1 1


9/72

$

t5e Lo0+0aa ta +tatte 6o +a8e+e 8a0e= cole+.

@ cl0et+, &e al+o a8e= a+ a =e6e=at De)0

2eo7e, t5e +tate e70+ta. @ cl0et+, Jack0e a= Lae

Bette, &ee 8a0e= at t5e t08e t5at t5e@ 7a)e 0t5. I6

Jack0e 5a= ee a 8a, 5e 8a0a7e to Lae &ol= 5a)e ee

eco70Ge= @ t5e e70+ta a= +5e &ol= 5a)e ee ale to

a++et 5e aetal 075t+ to t5e c50l=. Beca+e +5e+ a

&o8a, t5e +tate e70+ta e6+e= to a8e 5e a+ a aet o

t5e 0t5 cet060cate. T5e Henryv. Himescot ote= t5e08otace o6 t5e 0t5 cet060cate. It+ t5e ol@ co88ol@

0++e= 7o)e8etal =oc8et &5ee a aet ca a++et t5e0

aetal 075t, +o 0t 0+ a 08otat 075t.

I &ol= e e80++ 06 I =0=t e80= t5e Cot

o6 t5e +t078at0c 5a8 t5at J+t0ce ;ee=@ talke= aot 0

Windsor. So 0 a==0t0o to t5e+e +ot o6 cocete 5a8+,

t5ee+ +t a 7eeal +t078at0c 5a8 @ t5e +tate+ e6+al to

eco70Ge 8@ cl0et+ 8a0a7e+.

THE COURT: Let 8e a+k @o a >e+t0o aot Windsor

eca+e I t50k &e all a7ee t5at a 7eat =eal o6 t50+ 0++e

507e+, e0t5e ee++l@ o 08l0c0tl@, o &5at Windsor8ea+

a= &5at J+t0ce ;ee=@ 0 50+ 8ao0t@ o00o +a0=. He

&ote t5e 6ollo&07, a= I8 >ot074

B@ 50+to@ a= ta=0t0o t5e =e600t0o a=

e7lat0o o6 8a0a7e 5a+ ee teate= a+ e07 &0t50 t5e

at5o0t@ a= eal8 o6 t5e +eaate +tate+.1 4

11 2

-1 2

31 2

'1 2

"1 2


10/72

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State la&+ =e6007 a= e7lat07 8a0a7e 8+t

e+ect t5e co+t0tt0oal 075t+ o6 e+o+ t, +ect to

t5o+e 7aatee+, e7lat0o o6 =o8e+t0c elat0o+ 0+ a

aea t5at 5a+ lo7 ee e7a=e= a+ a )0tall@ ecl+0)e

o)0ce o6 t5e +tate+.

A= 5e e6e+ al+o to a e)ol)07 =e+ta=07

o6 t5e 8ea07 o6 e>al0t@.

I &o=e 06 t5e co+t0tt0oal 075t+ o6 e+o+

0 Windsor0+ oel@ =e60e= a+ e07 t5e +a8e 075t+ 5eeto=a@.

R! COURSON: 9o Hoo, let 8e

THE COURT: Windsora+0call@ +a0= t5at t5e 6e=eal

7o)e8et col= ot =0+c080ate a7a0+t Ne& 9ok 0 =e6007

8a0a7e a+ +a8e+e 8a0a7e. I 7e++ t5e >e+t0o 0+ 8a@ o

8a@ ot Lo0+0aa =o co+t0tt0oall@ &5at t5e 6e=eal

7o)e8et 5a+ o500te= 0t+el6 6o8 =o07 t 0 a =066eet

6actal cotet. So I &o=e 06 t5e co+t0tt0oal 0++e+ t5at

ae +oke to 0 Windsor5a)e @et ee =e60e= 0 t5e cotet

o6 t50+ o, 6akl@, t5e ot5e ca+e+ ao= t5e cot@,

alt5o75 I ko& t5at t5e ot5e ca+e+ 5a)e a+0call@ +a0= @e+.

R! COURSON: Let 8e t@ to a+&e

THE COURT: T5at+ e++et0all@ &5@ I a+ke= @o aot

Sevcik, t5e Ne)a=a ca+e. I t50k t5ee+ a ca+e 0 Bato Ro7e

t5at ca8e to J=7e Jack+o, o a 0++e aot a eot a=

eco88e=at0o+, o t5e >e+t0o o6 &5et5e o ot t5ee &a+ a1 6

11 4

-1 4

31 4

'1 4

"1 4


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11

co+t0tt0oal 0++e 0)ol)e= 0 t5e +a8e+e 8a0a7e cotet.

R! COURSON: I el0e)e 0 t5e Bato Ro7e ca+e,

9o Hoo, I t50k t5e cot c0te= Baker v. Nelson, &50c5 0+

ot t5e ec0+e 0++e e6oe t5e Cot to=a@.

THE COURT: No, I =e+ta=. /ell, 0t 8075t e a

collateal 0++e. I8 ot +e.

@ >e+t0o o 8a@e t50k07 ot lo= al0e+

to ot5 +0=e+. So 0t+ a )e@ lo7&0=e= &a@ o6 +a@07 I

accet t5e 6act t5at @o cl0et+ a= all t5e la0t066+ 0t50+ ca+e 5a)e a +e+e o6 e07 a770e)e=. T5e 0++e e6oe

t5e Cot 0+ &5et5e t5at 70e)ace, a =e+ta=ale

70e)ace, e)et5ele++ 0+e+ to co+t0tt0oal =070t@.

R! COURSON: 9o Hoo, I t50k I &ol= a+&e @o

>e+t0o @ +ot o6 tt07 Windsora+0=e 6o a 8o8et a=

e6e07 t5e Cot to t5e ca+e+ l0ke Loving, Zablocki, a=

Turner.

THE COURT: Loving&ot =o @o a@ 7oo=. Let 8e e

>0te =0ect &0t5 @o. T5e C0)0l /a a8e=8et+ to t5e

U0te= State+ Co+t0tt0o +ec060call@ a5o a= co=e8

a= coectl@ +o ac0al =0+c080at0o. I =ot t50k @o

ca a7e t5at t5e Co+t0tt0o 0+ +o el0c0t 0 t50+ ca+e

0t 8075t e t5ee, t I =ot t50k @o ca a7e t5at 0t+ +o

el0c0t. I Loving0t &a+ el0c0t. I t5e ot5e ca+e+ 0t

&a+ el0c0t. I LawrenceI t50k 0t+ a7al@ el0c0t.

T5at, I t50k, 0+ &5at I t50k t5e +t77le 0+ 5ee.1 8

11 6

-1 6

31 6

'1 7

"1 7


12/72

1-

I &0ll e 7la= to 5ea @o ot. T5at+ &5@ &e

ae 5a)07 t50+ 5ea07. I8 ot +at0+60e= t5at 0t+

ao0ate to el@ o acea+e= ca+e+ eca+e t5e

Co+t0tt0o 0+ >0te +ec060c, a= coectl@ +o.

R! COURSON: E)e tt07 Lovinga+0=e, 9o Hoo,

t5ee+ +t0ll Zablockia= Turner. I Turnert5e

Se8e Cot, J+t0ce OCoo &0t07 6o t5e 8ao0t@, 6o=

a 6=a8etal 075t 6o 0+oe+ to eo@ t5e 075t o6

8a0a7e. T5at &a+ a+e= o t5e 0=ea o6 e8ot0oal +ot, t5e+00tal +07060cace o6 8a0a7e

THE COURT: It &a+ +t0ll 8ale6e8ale. A8 I 075t

aot t5at T5e 8a0a7e

R! COURSON: Turner, @e+. T5ee &a+t a 075t at

t5e t08e. 0++o0, 0 t5at ca+e, =0= ot allo& +a8e+e

8a0a7e at t5e t08e.

THE COURT: R075t.

R! COURSON: /e ko& t5at 6=a8etal 075t+ ete=

to all c0t0Ge+. Ca+e+ l0ke

THE COURT: F=a8etal 075t+ @ 50+to@ a=

ta=0t0o, I t50k @o 5a)e to a== t5at ele8et 0 t5e

e>at0o.

R! COURSON: /ell, a++807 t5ee+ a 50+to@

THE COURT: I6 @o ae talk07 aot =e oce++.

R! COURSON: R075t, 9o Hoo. T5ee 0+ a 50+to@

a= ta=0t0o o6 allo&07 a e+o to c5oo+e t5e0 +o+e. A+2 0

11 8

-1 8

31 8

'1 9

"1 9


13/72

13

t5e I=a5o cot 0 Lattav. tterote=, &5at 0+ t5e ++tace

o6 t5at 075t 6o 7a@+ a= le+0a+ ot5e t5a t5e 075t to

8a@ t5e e+o o6 t5e0 c5oo+07 Ptt07 a+0=e t5at Loving

&a+ a ace ca+e! Loving&a+ aot t5e 075t o6 t5o+e

0=0)0=al+ to 8a@ t5e e+o t5at t5e@ c5o+e. I Turner

THE COURT: /50c5 &a+ o500te= @ ac0al e=0ce.

It &a+ t5e 80+ce7eat0oal la&+ o6 !0700a.

R! COURSON: 9e+, +0. 9o Hoo, I &ol= a7e

t5at t5e Foteet5 A8e=8et al+o ete=+ to ot5e 7o+ot5e t5a +t, @o ko& &o8e, +eal o0etat0o

THE COURT: I =e+ta= t5at. I8 ot +77e+t07 0t

=oe+t. @ o0t 0+, to +eak to t5e 0++e+ 0 Loving, t5e

Cot t5ee 5a= a +ec060c co+t0tt0oal ee++0o o6

co=e8at0o.

R! COURSON: /ell, 9o Hoo, I 7e++ I &ol=

e+o= t5at 8a@ ca+e+ "omer, Lawrence al+o 0cl=e=

7a@+ a= le+0a+ &0t50 t5e a80t o6 t5e Foteet5 A8e=8et.

I &0ll +t lea)e 0t at t5at.

THE COURT: Do @o &at t5at &50+ke@ o&

R! COURSON: I 7e++ I &ol= l0ke to t to t5e

at0oale+ t5e +tate

THE COURT: I 5a)e +o8e 6o . Dca too.

R! COURSON: t5e at0oale+ t5e +tate 5a+ t

6o&a= 0 6a)o o6 t5e+e la&+. E)e 06 t5e Cot al0e+

at0oal a+0+ +ct0@ &50c5 &e 7e t5e Cot to al@2 1

12 0

-2 0

32 0

'2 0

"2 0


14/72

1'

5e075tee= +ct0@ o, =e t5e =e oce++ c5alle7e, +t0ct

+ct0@. E)e 06 t5e Cot =ec0=e+ to al@ at0oal a+0+,

t5e +tate 5a+ to +5o& a at0oal ee= et&ee t5e e7lat0o

a=

THE COURT: /e =ot =0+a7ee aot a@ o6 t5at.

R! COURSON: A= oe o6 t5e at0oale+ t5at t5e

+tate 5a+ o66ee=

THE COURT: Let 8e a+k @o. I8 ot e+oal0G07

t50+, t =e60e 6o 8e t5e cocet o6 8a0a7e t5at @o ae707 0 t50+ ca+e.

R! COURSON: /ell, I8 707 t5e Cot to ete=

t5e ta=0t0oal 075t t5at t5e Se8e Cot 5a+ eco70Ge=

a7a0 a+ a 6=a8etal 075t to 8a@ t5e e+o o6 oe+

c5oo+07. T5e +tate caot e+t0ct t5at 075t &0t5ot a

le70t08ate co+t0tt0oal +t060cat0o.

THE COURT: /5at aot 60+tco+0 8a0a7e+ /5at

aot t5e 8a0a7e o6 a 6at5e a= a =a75te o a 6at5e a= a

+o

R! COURSON: T5e +tate 8a@ e ale to 8+te

Lo0+0aa co+t0tt0oal +t060cat0o+ 6o t5o+e ot5e t@e+

o6 e7lat0o+, t 5ee 0 t50+ ca+e t5e +tate 5a+t 8+tee=

a co+t0tt0oal +t060cat0o to o500t t5e eco70t0o o6

8@ cl0et+ 8a0a7e+.

THE COURT: So @o &ol= +a@ t5e State o6 Lo0+0aa,

@ a co+t0tt0oal a8e=8et a= @ a +tatte a6te t5e2 3

12 2

-2 2

32 2

'2 2

"2 2


15/72

1"

=e8ocat0c oce++ 0+ la@e= ot, col= oal@ o500t, +a@,

6at5e=a75te 8a0a7e o clee5e& 8a0a7e o at0ece

8a0a7e t ot +a8e+e 8a0a7e

R! COURSON: I ceta0l@ t50k t5at t5ee ae

ole8+ &0t5 elat0)e+ 8a@07 eac5 ot5e t5at t5e +tate

col= 8+te

THE COURT: /5at+ t5e =066eece 0 @o 80=

R! COURSON: /ell, 9o Hoo, ceta0l@ t5ee col=

e +oc0etal ole8+ &0t5 a 6at5e=a75te 8a0a7e 0a==0t0o to, o6 co+e, 0ce+t. S07060cat +oc0etal 5a8+

col= 6lo& 6o8 t5at, t t5e +tate 5a+t 8+tee= a@ +ot o6

at0oale 6o +a8e+e 8a0a7e. T5ee+ o co8aale. It+

+t ot a 6a0 co8a0+o.

THE COURT: All 075t. 2o a5ea=.

R! COURSON: T5e at0oale+ t5at t5e +tate 5a)e t

6o&a= ae oceat0o a= +oc0al co+e++. T5e@ 5a)e al+o

talke= aot 6e=eal0+8, t &e 5a)e alea=@ toc5e= o t5at.

THE COURT: Let+ +a@ State A a++e= a la& e80tt07

t5e +e o6 l0c 6=+ 0 +ecta0a +c5ool+. Oka@. U+e o6

l0c 6=+ 0 +ecta0a +c5ool+. A= a cole, a 8a0e=

cole o t5e aet. a@e oe aet =0e=. T5e aet o6

a c50l= 0 State A 0+ ece0)07 +tate 8oe@ 6o a +ecta0a

+c5ool, a Pe+@te0a +c5ool o &5ate)e, a= t5e aet 7et+

ta+6ee= to State B. State B 5a+ a la& o500t07 t5e +e

o6 l0c 8oe@ 6o +ecta0a +c5ool+. /ol= t5at 5a)e2 5

12 3

-2 3

32 3

'2 3

"2 3


16/72

1ece+

R! COURSON: I6 I =e+ta= @o >e+t0o

coectl@, 9o Hoo, @oe a+k07 06

THE COURT: /e ae talk07 aot e>al otect0o a=

=e oce++. T5at+ t5e 6oc+ o6 @o a78et. /5at I8

t@07 to 5el @o =o 6o 8e 0+ to 5el 8e =e60e +o8e

aa8ete+ 6o 60=07 t5at co+t0tt0oal 075t t5at @oe

a707 5ee to=a@.

I =ot 5a)e a@ =ot t5at +a8e+e cole+6eel a770e)e=. I 5a)e o =ot. T5ee+ o =0+te aot

t5at. T5e 0++e 0+ =oe+ t5at teat8et, &50c5 e+lt+ 0 t5e0

70e)ace, 0+e to co+t0tt0oal +tcte. T5at+ &5@ I8

70)07 @o t5e+e ea8le+ eca+e I8 t@07 to =e60e 0 8@

o& 80= &5ee t50+ co+t0tt0oal 075t co8e+ 6o8.

Look, I)e ee ao= 5ee 6o 3# @ea+. I

ea= ca+e+. I8 6a80l0a &0t5 e)e@ &o= t5at e)e@ ot5e

=0+t0ct =7e 5a+ &0tte. I8 t@07 to 7et @o to =e60e

6o 8e t5e =066eece et&ee a co+t0tt0oal 075t 5ee a=

&5at @o +ee8 to +77e+t 8075t ot e a co+t0tt0oal 075t 0

ot5e cotet+ a+ 0, 6o ea8le, t5e 6at5e=a75te 8a0a7e

o t5e at0ece 8a0a7e o t5e >e+t0o aot t5e +e o6

l0c 8oe@ 6o +ecta0a e=cat0o.

R! COURSON: I &ol= +80t, 9o Hoo, t5at 0 t5e

+cea0o+ @o 0=et060e=, t5e at0oal a+0+ te+t &ol= al@.

/e 5a)e 7e= 5e075tee= +ct0@ o t5e a+0+ o62 8

12 5

-2 6

32 6

'2 6

"2 6


17/72

1(

=0+c080at0o o t5e a+0+ o6 +eal o0etat0o a= o t5e

a+0+ o6 7e=e, t 0 @o +cea0o+ I =ot +ee a otecte=

cla++ e07 at 0++e.

THE COURT: A aet &5o 5a+ ece0)e= 5el 6o8 t5e

+tate 6o t5e +ecta0a e=cat0o o6 50+ o 5e c50l= 5a+ to

8o)e. I8 e80=e= o6 t5e 0e6 t5at t5e 80l0ta@ 60le=, a

a80c+ 0e6 5a+ to 8o)e, +080la to a +ol=0e +tat0oe= 0

Cal06o0a 5a+ to 8o)e to Lo0+0aa.

Hee+ a aet 0 State A ece0)07 8a@e a5=e= ecet l0c 8oe@ 6o a +ecta0a e=cat0o eca+e

0t+ a ette +c5ool. R075t o6 c5o0ce. 2et+ ta+6ee= to

State B. 9o cat 5a)e a@ 8oe@ 6o t5e e=cat0o o6 @o

c50l= 0 a +ecta0a +c5ool. E)e t5o75 t5at aet 8075t

a7al@ 06 I8 6ollo&07 @o a78et, t5at aet 8075t

a7al@ 5a)e a 075t to +a@, /ell, I &at to +e= 8@ k0= to a

Pe+@te0a +c5ool. I 7ot 8oe@ 6o8 State A &5e I l0)e=

t5ee. I 5a= to ta+6e to State B eca+e o6 8@ o.

R! COURSON: /ell, I t50k 0 t5at

THE COURT: Do @o =e+ta= &5ee I a8

R! COURSON: I t50k, 9o Hoo, 0 t5at ca+e 06

t5at la0t066 o75t a e>al otect0o c5alle7e

THE COURT: R075t.

R! COURSON: t5e@ &ol= e +ect to t5e

at0oal a+0+ te+t.

THE COURT: A= &5at &ol= t5e e+lt e2 9

12 8

-2 8

32 8

'2 8

"2 8


18/72

1?

R! COURSON: I t50k 0 t5at I =ot ko& &5at

t5e e+lt &ol= e, 9o Hoo. T5e +tate &ol= 5a)e to co8e

6o&a= actall@, 0 t5at ca+e t5e la0t066+, =e t5e

at0oal a+0+ te+t, &ol= 5a)e to co8e 6o&a= &0t5 a

le70t08ate =0+o)e all t5e +tate+ +t060cat0o+ 6o t5e

la&. T5e +tate 8a@ &ell 5a)e 60ac0al ea+o+ 0 @o

5@ot5et0cal 6o

THE COURT: I8 +o@ to 0tet. /ol= a@ o6

t5e+e ea8le+ t5at I8 e++07 o @o >al06@ =eJ+t0ce ;ee=@+ co88et aot a e)ol)07 =e+ta=07 o6

t5e 8ea07 o6 e>al0t@ I8 t@07 to 7a+ &5at Windsor

actall@ =oe+ a+ ece=et 5ee. I8 &ell a&ae t5at 8a@,

8a@ ot5e =7e+ ao= t5e cot@ 5a)e +a0= Windsoral0e+.

R! COURSON: I t50k &5at Windsor+ta=+ 6o 0+ t5at

t5e ae =e+0e to 5a8 7a@+ a= le+0a+ @ =e@07 t5e

e0+tece o6 t5e0 8a0a7e+ &0t5ot a co+t0tt0oal

+t060cat0o 0+ co+t0tt0oal.

THE COURT: I8 7o07 to te+t @o o& eca+e @o ae

a ate 0 t5e la& 608 t5at ee+et+ 8e o occa+0o a=

I 5a)e =0+clo+e= t5at alea=@ to e)e@o=@ a= al+o eca+e

+. Ha0+ &o a )e@ 07 ca+e 5ee t&o @ea+ a7o 6o a 07

8o)0e +ta. T50+ al0e+ to . Dca too.

I8 ot 7o07 to tell @o &5o+e &o=+ I8

ea=07, t I8 7o07 to ea= +o8e >ote+ to @o 6o8 a

Se8e Cot +t0ce, a= I8 7o07 to a+k @o to eact to3 1

12 9

-2 9

32 9

'2 9

"3 0


19/72

1$

t5e8 &0t5ot tell07 @o &5o &ote t5e8.

Bea &0t5 8e, lea+e. T5e+e ae all >ote+.

T5e@ =ot ece++a0l@ 6ollo& oe aot5e. I 5a)e t t5e8

to7et5e4

Le++ 8ea+ale, t ceta0l@ o6 o le++

+07060cace, 0+ t5e +5atte07 e66ect t50+ collect0o o6 )0e&+

5a+ o t5e oot 0c0le+ o6 +tae =ec0+0+, 6e=eal0+8,

=0c0al e+ta0t, a= 8o+t 08otatl@ +eaat0o o6 o&e+.

I a =e8ocac@ t5e 60+t 0=0cato o6 t5el0c+ att0t=e 8+t al&a@+ e 6o= 0 t5e le70+lat0)e

=78et+ o6 t5e eole+ c5o+e ee+etat0)e+.

F0+t, &5ee a+ 5ee, t5e la7a7e o6 t5e

al0cale o)0+0o o)0=e+ 7eat lee&a@ a= &5ee t5e

=el@07 +oc0al ol0c0e+ ae 6elt to e o6 )0tal 08otace,

t5e te8tat0o to ea= e+oal e6eece 0to t5e

Co+t0tt0o 0+ =e+ta=al@ 7eat.

Oe 8+t cocl=e, cota@ to et0t0oe+

+80++0o, t5at t5e 0=0cato+ 8o+t l0kel@ to e6lect t5e

l0c+ )0e& le70+lat0)e o=0e+, +tate e6ee=a =o ot

+ot t5e cotet0o t5at e)ol)07 +ta=a=+ o6 =ecec@

e>0e t50+ e+lt. T5e a++e++8et o6 ola o00o 0+

e++et0all@ a le70+lat0)e, ot a =0c0al 6ct0o.

Do @o ko& &5o 0t 0+ @et

R! COURSON: I =ot, 9o Hoo.

THE COURT: F0all@43 3

13 1

-3 2

33 2

'3 2

"3 2


20/72

-#

T5e +oe07 =0+a=)ata7e o6 co+t0tt0oal

a==0cat0o o6 t50+ 8a70t=e 0+ t5e 0)e+al0t@ a=

e8aece o6 t5e =78et. T5e e=07 8e0t o6 le70+lat0)e

act0o 0+ 0t+ e+o+0)ee++ to t5e =e8ocat0c oce++, a= to

e)0+0o a= c5a7e4 80+take =78et+ 8a@ e coecte= a=

e60e8et+ e6ecte=.

It +ee8+ to 8e t5at t5e +&ee07 =0c0al

act0o =etake to=a@ e6lect+ a a+0c lack o6 6a0t5 a=

co60=ece 0 t5e =e8ocat0c oce++.Let 8e 5a)e @o co88et+.

R! COURSON: /ell, I 7e++ @o 5a)e +t8e= 8e a+ to

&5o t5e at5o 0+, 9o Hoo.

THE COURT: +. Ha0+ 0+ look07 6o 0t 075t o&.

R! COURSON: I &ol= +77e+t to t5e Cot t5at I

=ot ko& t5e cotet o6 t5e >ote t5at @o ea=, t t5e

otect0o o6 80o0t@ co+t0tt0oal 075t+

THE COURT: Ill 70)e @o a 50t. It &a+ +o8et507

t5at t5e Cot =eclae= co+t0tt0oal a= t5e late

e)e+e= 0t+el6.

R! COURSON: I 7e++, 9o Hoo, I &ol= +a@ t5at

t5e otect0o o6 80o0t@ co+t0tt0oal 075t+ 0+ ot +ect

to t5e &508+ o6 t5e 8ao0t@. I &ol= c0te t5e Cot a= I

ko& t5e Cot 5a+ alea=@ &ae= 8e aot c0t07 ace ca+e+

Watsonv. #em$his, &5ee t5e Cot +a0= t5e +tate =e+0e to

8ake a 80o0t@ &a0t to eec0+e 6=a8etal 075t+ t0l 3 5

13 3

-3 3

33 3

'3 4

"3 4


21/72

-1

THE COURT: I =ot 5a)e a@ >ael &0t5 t5e ace

ca+e+. I ca tell @o t5at 0t took too lo7 6o t5e a8e=8et+

to t5e Co+t0tt0o to e a=ote= 0 t5at &ol=. T5e

Co+t0tt0o +ec060call@ co=e8+ ace a0t07, ace 0a+,

ace e=0ce, ace 5ate=. It +ec060call@ co=e8+ 0t.

Hee t5ee 0+ o +ec060c co=e8at0o. T5ee

0+ a 0++e. I8 ot +77e+t07 t5ee 0+t. T5e 0++e 0+ 0

t50+ cotet =oe+ a=80tte=l@ +a8e+e 8a0a7e+ ae teate=

l0ke ta=0t0oal 8a0a7e+ 0 Lo0+0aa a= 8a@e 0 a80o0t@, t 0 +e)eal ot5e +tate+ a+ &ell. I t50k 11

ot5e +tate+ o +o8et507. I =ot 5a)e a@ =ot aot t5at.

T5at+ &5@ t50+ 5ea07 0+ o t5e a+0+ o6 t5e la& a= ot t5e

6act+. T5e 0++e 0+ &5et5e a+ a 8atte o6 la& t5ee 5a+

ee t5ee 0+ t5e ac50tecte 6o co+t0tt0oal e+ta0t

5ee.

Do @o 5a)e +o8et507 el+e @o &at to o0t ot

to 8e

R! COURSON: /ell, 9o Hoo &e =0=t talk aot

t5e ea+o+ t5e Cot +5ol= al@ 5e075tee= +ct0@.

THE COURT: 9o ko&, I8 6ll@ a&ae o6 t5e 6act

t5at o 8atte &5at +ta=a= o6 e)0e& al0e+, &5et5e 0t+

t5e 8o+t +t07et o &5et5e 0t+ t5e 8o+t elae= o &5et5e

0t+ +o8e 0te8e=0ate +ct0@, t5at t5e 8ao0t@ 06 ot all

o6 t5e cot+ t5+ 6a =e a@ +ta=a= 5a)e 6o= a

co+t0tt0oal 075t. I =ot 5a)e a@ =ot aot t5at.3 7

13 5

-3 5

33 5

'3 5

"3 5


22/72

--

/e ca a7e aot &5at 5e075tee= +ct0@

8ea+, aot &5at 0te8e=0ate +ct0@ 8ea+, aot &5at

at0oal a+0+ 8ea+. So8e eole 6eel t5at t5e@ 5a)e

++tace. So8e eole 6eel t5at t5e@ ae o8at0)e a= t5at

0t+ to t5e =7e to =ec0=e &5at t5e@ 8ea.

I t50+ ca+e all t5e 0o =ec0+0o+, all t5e

6e=eal =0+t0ct cot =ec0+0o+ a= +o8e +tate cot =ec0+0o+

&50c5 I 5a)e ea= e++et0all@ eca+e t5e ot5e +0=e 5a+

o0te= ot +o8e =0++et+ 0 t5e +tate cot =ec0+0o+ t5ee+ o =ot t5at t5e ec5o to=a@ 0+ to +t0ke =o& la&+

t5at =066eet0ate et&ee ta=0t0oal 8a0a7e a= +a8e+e

8a0a7e. I 5a)e o =ot aot t5at, o 8atte &5at t5e

+ta=a= o6 e)0e& 0+.

T5e 0++e 0+ &5et5e t5ee 0+ coectl@, a+

t5e+e ca+e+ 5a)e 5el= e)0o+l@ ecet t5e Ne)a=a ca+e a=

ecet t5e 0==le D0+t0ct o6 Lo0+0aa ca+e t5at 0t+

co+t0tt0oal to =066eet0ate et&ee ta=0t0oal a=

+a8e+e 8a0a7e.

R! COURSON: I &ol= =066eet0ate o 6act+ 6o8

t5e Ne)a=a ca+e. I t5e Sevcikca+e, t5e cot 6o= t5at 7a@+

a= le+0a+ &ee ol0t0call@ o&e6l

THE COURT: T5e Ne)a=a ca+e 0+ o6 o )ale oe &a@ o

t5e ot5e 06 @o ae 075t aot Windsor. I col= 8ake t5e

a78et t5at 06 t5e =7e 0 t5at ca+e 5a= to =ec0=e 0t to=a@,

06 @o ae 075t aot Windsor, t5at ca+e &ol= 5a)e to e3 9

13 7

-3 7

33 7

'3 8

"3 8


23/72

-3

=ec0=e= =066eetl@. I6 Windsor0+ l080te=, t5e 5o& t5at

=7e &ol= =ec0=e t5at ca+e to=a@ 0+ 0 t5e a0.

A=, o6 co+e, &e all 5a)e to e8e8e t5at

J+t0ce ;ee=@ cocl=e= Windsor&0t5 t5e+e &o=+, t50+

o00o a= 0t+ 5ol=07 ae co60e= to t5o+e la&6l

8a0a7e+, t5e 8a0a7e+ 0 Ne& 9ok t5at &ee t5e l0t07at+

0 t5e Windsorca+e, &50c5 &a+ a e+tate ta ca+e.

R! COURSON: I &ol= 0)0te t5e Cot to ete= t5e

at0oale o6 Windsorto t50+ THE COURT: /ell, t5at =oe+. T5at 7et+ to J+t0ce

;ee=@+ co88et+ aot e)ol)07 =e+ta=07 o6 t5e 8ea07

o6 e>al0t@. I a7ee &0t5 @o. I col=t a7ee 8oe.

Let 8e 5ea 6o8 . Dca. Sa)e t5e &50+ke@

6o 508.

R! DUNC#N: a@ 0t lea+e t5e Cot. J=7e

THE COURT: T5ee ae at lea+t 13, 8a@e I

cot 11, t 8a@e t5ee ae 13 6e=eal =0+t0ct cot ca+e+

ao= t5e cot@ t5at =0+a7ee &0t5 @o.

R! DUNC#N: T5at+ coect, 9o Hoo.

THE COURT: /5@ +5ol=t I =0+a7ee &0t5 @o

R! DUNC#N: T5e@ ae 80+ea=07 Windsor, 9o Hoo,

a= I cat ela0 0t. I =ot ko& &5@ t5e@ ae ot ea=07

oel@ t5e +e)e a7e+ t5at Windsor+e=+ talk07 aot t5e

50+to0c a= e++et0al at5o0t@ o6 +tate+ to =e60e t5e

8a0tal elat0o. All I ca +a@ 0+ Windsor0+ c@+tal clea.4 1

13 9

-3 9

34 0

'4 0

"4 0


24/72

-'

THE COURT: T5e@ ae 7oo= =7e+.

R! DUNC#N: I 5a)e o =ot.

THE COURT: I 8etoe= oe o6 t5e8.

R! DUNC#N: I 5a)e o =ot. I t5e ;etck@ ca+e,

6o 0+tace, 9o Hoo

THE COURT: O6 co+e, I al+o 8etoe= J+t0ce

Soto8a@o, t 8o+t eole +ee8 to 6o7et t5at a= c0te Scal0a

to 8e.

R! DUNC#N: T5e+e =7e+ ae ot ea=07 Windsor6o&5at 0t +a@+. Let 8e t 0t t50+ &a@. T5e+e ot5e cot+ a=

t5e la0t066+ 5ee ae +a@07 Windsor0+ a+e= o a

6ee+ta=07 e>al otect0o a= =e oce++ at0oale.

THE COURT: Fee+ta=07 8ea07 oee=e=

R! DUNC#N: No, 6ee+ta=07 8ea07, Look, t5e

6e=eal 7o)e8et =e8eae= 7a@ eole 0 t5e0 8a0a7e+ @

a++07 DOA Sect0o 3 a=, t5ee6oe, 0t+ co+t0tt0oal.

T5at+ 5o& I =e+ta= t5e0 a78et. It+ a 6ee+ta=07

e>al otect0o a78et.

No&, 06 t5at+ te, 06 t5at+ &5at Windsor

8ea+, &5@ =0= Windsor+e= +e)e a7e+ 0 t5e Se8e Cot

eot+ =eta0l07 t5e 50+to0c a= e++et0al at5o0t@ o6

+tate+ to =e60e t5e 8a0tal elat0o

THE COURT: Sect to co+t0tt0oal 7aatee+.

/5@ 0+t t50+ a co+t0tt0oal 7aatee

R! DUNC#N: R075t. /ell, look at t5e ca+e t5e cot4 2

14 1

-4 1

34 1

'4 1

"4 1


25/72

-"

c0te+. It c0te+ Loving6o t5at. A+ 9o Hoo o0te= ot,

t5ee+ o >e+t0o t5at 0)0=0o+ ac0al =0+c080at0o

)0olate+ t5e coe 8ea07 o6 t5e Foteet5 A8e=8et. T5at+

&5at Loving+a0=.

THE COURT: Cat t50+ e aalo7o+ to t5at

R! DUNC#N: Not e)e t5e la0t066+ ae a707 6o

+t0ct +ct0@ alo7 t5e l0e+ o6 Loving. A+ 9o Hoo

o0te= ot, @o 5a)e 7ot a 50+to@ 0 t50+ cot@ o6

0)0=0o+ ac0al =0+c080at0o t5at e+lte= 0 t5eeco+t0tt0oal a8e=8et+. Loving&a+ eco70G07 t5e 6oce o6

t5at, a= 0t +a0= 0t )0olate+ t5e cetal 8ea07 o6 t5e

Foteet5 A8e=8et. Hee @o 5a)e t5e la0t066+ t@07 to

a7e 6o 5e075tee= +ct0@. /e +to7l@ t50k at0oal

a+0+ 0+ all t5at al0e+ a= t5at+ &5at Windsoral0e=.

THE COURT: /ell, Windsoreall@ 0+ ett@ clea

aot &5at 0t &a+ al@07.

R! DUNC#N: /ell, t5e la7a7e o6 cae6l

co+0=eat0o t5at Windsor+e+ 0+ =0ectl@ 6o8 "omer, &50c5

0+ =0ectl@ 6o8 +tate ta ca+e+ aot at0oal a+0+, a+

J=7e OScala0 +t +a0= 0 50+ =0++et t5at I 60le= la+t

075t.

oe 08otatl@, t5o75, t5e t&o 5al)e+ o6

Windsor @o ko&, 9o Hoo +a0= t5ee +ee8e= to e t&o

+0=e+ o6Windsor, a= @o +ee t5at 0 +o8e o6 t5e o00o+. /e

=ot t50k +o.4 3

14 2

-4 2

34 2

'4 2

"4 2


26/72

-al0t@.

A= +o &5at 5ae+ T5e@ &et t5o75 t5e

le70+lat0)e oce++, &5at Windsorcalle= a +tate&0=e

=el0eat0o o t5e o+ a= co+ o6 +a8e+e 8a0a7e. /5at

Windsor+a@+ 0+ &5e a +tate =oe+ t5at, t5e t5e 6e=eal

7o)e8et )0olate+ t5e F06t5 A8e=8et @ =0+c080at07

a7a0+t t5at +tate c5o0ce.

Hee+ t5e la7a7e. I =ot t50k I >ote=

t50+ 0 8@ 0e6, t I +5ol= 5a)e. Windsor+a@+ DOA

Sect0o 3 0te6ee= &0t5 +tate +o)ee07 c5o0ce+ aot &5o

8a@ 8a@. State +o)ee07 c5o0ce+.4 8

14 6

-4 7

34 7

'4 7

"4 7


29/72

-$

Re8e8e, t5e at5o o6 Windsor0+ J+t0ce

;ee=@. J+t0ce ;ee=@ 5a+ &0tte 8a@ elo>et o00o+

aot 6e=eal0+8. Bond v. (nited States0+ >ote= 0 Windsor

&5ee 0t talk+ aot 6e=eal0+8 e+e)07 t5e a0l0t@ o6

eole 0 a +tate to +ot o6 I8 aa5a+07 5oo t5o+e

&5o &at to +5ae t5e0 o& =e+t0@. T5at+ &5at Ne& 9ok =0=.

Ne& 9ok +a0=, /e 5a)e a e& e+ect0)e a= a e& 0+075t. /e

ae 7o07 to le70+late t5at. T5e Ne& 9ok Cot o6 Aeal+

+a0= t5at+ eactl@ t5e &a@ t507+ +5ol= &ok.T5at+ &5at Windsor0+ aot. T5at+ &5@ t5e

t&o 5al)e+ o6Windsor alt5o75 I eall@ =ot t50k t5e@ ae

t&o 5al)e+. T5at+ &5@ Windsor0+ o6 a 0ece. T5e t&o 7o

to7et5e, a= +o &5at t5at 8ea+

THE COURT: /ell, J+t0ce Scal0a ceta0l@ t5o75t

t5at Windsoro66ee= a l0ttle 0t to e)e@o=@.

R! DUNC#N: /ell, C50e6 J+t0ce Roet+, I t50k,

6akl@, 5a= t5e ette o6 t5at a78et &5e 5e &ote 0 50+

=0++et, Look, t50+ 0+ aot 6e=eal0+8. T50+ 0+ aot

6e=eal0+8.

/e =0+a7ee &0t5 t5e la0t066+ t5at +e)e

+t0ce+ 0 Windsor=0+ca=e= 6e=eal0+8. T5at+ ot t5e ca+e.

F0)e +t0ce+ 0 Windsor, a 8ao0t@ o6 t5e Cot, e8ace=

6e=eal0+8 a+ t5e a08at07 at0oale.

No&, t5e ot5e +0=e &0ll +a@, /ell! Windsor+a0=

0t ee= ot =ec0=e 0t el@ o 6e=eal0+8 7o=+. T5at+4 9

14 8

-4 8

34 8

'4 8

"4 8


30/72

3#

te eca+e Windsor+et t&o o t5ee aa7a5+ talk07

aot a l080te= 6e=eal at5o0t@ o)e 8a0a7e, +o 0t col=t

)e@ &ell +a@ t50+ 0+ a Tet5 A8e=8et ca+e e a= +08le.

THE COURT: /5at 0+ @o eact0o to t5e >e+t0o+ I

a+ke= . Co+o aot, t5e 5@ot5et+ o6 l0c 6=+ 6o

+ecta0a e=cat0o =066e07 a8o7 t5e +tate+ a= &5at ca a

+tate =o 0 =e6007 8a0a7e acco=07 to J+t0ce ;ee=@

A= t5e ea8le+ I 7a)e &ee &5at aot a at0ece 8a0a7e,

a 60+tco+0 8a0a7e, 6at5e+o 8a0a7e, ot5eot5e,+0+te+0+te.

R! DUNC#N: R075t.

THE COURT: /5ee =oe+ t50+ 0++e take a co880t@ o

a +oc0et@ o a +tate o t5e at0o, 6o t5at 8atte

R! DUNC#N: Hee+ 5o& I =e+ta= @o 60+t

>e+t0o, J=7e. T5e >e+t0o aot +ecta0a +c5ool 6=07,

I8 a++807 t5at t5e 6=07 =oe+t )0olate t5e E+tal0+58et

Cla+e o 08l0cate 6ee eec0+e at all.

/5at @o 5a)e 7ot t5ee 0+ @o 5a)e =066eet

+tate+ co807 to =066eet cocl+0o+ aot 5o& to 6=

el070o+ +c5ool+. T5e Se8e Cot +a0= t5ee+ la@ 0 t5e

o0t+ t5ee. T5e +tate+ ca co8e to =066eet cocet0o+.

T5e@ ae +07 ta ce=0t+ 6o t5e 8o+t at t5e+e =a@+ a= ot

=0ect 6=07, t t5e +tate+ co8e to =066eet cocl+0o+.

No&, t50+ 0+ a aea &5ee e8ot0o+ )e@ 5075. 9o 5a)e

7ot aet+ cocee= aot t5e0 c50l=e+ e=cat0o, a= @o5 1

14 9

-4 9

34 9

'4 9

"4 9


31/72

31

5a)e el070o 0 t5e 80 too, a= @et t5e +tate+ 7o =066eet

lace+.

So t5ee &a+ a ecet Se8e Cot ca+e ot o6

A0Goa aot ta ce=0t+ 6o +ecta0a +c5ool+. No&, t5at

+5o&+ a+ &e +a@ 0 o 0e6, t5at+ o Co+t0tt0o at

&ok. State+ ca co8e to =066eet cocet0o+ aot t5e

co88o 7oo= e)e &0t5 e+ect to +o8et507 t5at +e+0t0)e.

T5at+ &5at t5e Schuetteca+e 0+ aot, @ t5e

&a@. T5e Schuetteca+e 0+ aot eole 0 0c507a =eat07o)e +o8et507 etao=0a0l@ +e+0t0)e, a6608at0)e act0o.

/e 5a)e 7ot 6a 8oe Se8e Cot o00o+ o a6608at0)e

act0o t5a &e =o o +a8e+e 8a0a7e.

THE COURT: T5e la0t066+ =0+t070+5 Schuette6o8

t50+. Ho& =o @o =eal &0t5 0t

R! DUNC#N: R075t. Se. T5e la0t066+ +a@ t5at

0c507a 5a= t5e a0l0t@ to e= =0+c080at0o, a= t5e

Se8e Cot eco70Ge= t5at. T5o+e &eet t5e a78et+

lea=07 to Schuette. /5at t5e eole &5o &ee a7a0+t t5e

0c507a a8e=8et +a0= 0+ t5at @o ae 0+t0tt0oal0G07

=0+c080at0o @ a07 a6608at0)e act0o 0 @o +tate

co+t0tt0o. T5at+ &5@ t5e S0t5 C0c0t e ac +tck t5at

=o& =e t5e E>al Potect0o Cla+e.

/5at J+t0ce ;ee=@ +a0= 0 Schuette a=

0t+ a o&e6l o00o 0+ 5e +a0=, Look I8

aa5a+07 t5e =e8ocat0c oce++ 0+ a =ale t507. /e5 2

15 1

-5 1

35 1

'5 1

"5 1


32/72

3-

=eate )e@, )e@ +e+0t0)e a= 08otat 0++e+.

A= t50+ 0+ oe o6 t5e8. A6608at0)e act0o a=

+a8e+e 8a0a7e ae ete8el@ 08otat 0++e+.

/e =eate t5e8. So8et08e+ &e lo+e o te8e.

9o ko&, t5e Cot +a@+ +o8et08e+ t5e =eate+ +5a=e 0to

aco, t to e8o)e t5o+e =eate+ 6o8 t5e =e8ocat0c

oce++ a= t50+ 0+ Schuettetalk07, ot 8e 0+ =e8ea07

to t5e =e8ocat0c oce++.

It+ =e8ea07 to t5e =e8ocat0c oce++ to =ot5at. T5at+ J+t0ce ;ee=@, t5e at5o o6Windsor. Schuette

&a+, I =ot ko&, +0 8ot5+ a6te Windsor. I ea= t5at a+ a

+to7 a6608at0o o6 t5e =e8ocat0c oce++.

THE COURT: T5e 8ea07 to t5e =e8ocat0c oce++ ae

ot t5e &o=+ o6 J+t0ce ;ee=@ t5at I &a+ ea=07 to

. Co+o. Do @o ko& &5o I &a+ ea=07

R! DUNC#N: I &a+ t@07 to 7e++. @ 7e++ &ol=

5a)e ee t5e =0++et 0 Bowers v. Hardwick, t I8 oal@

&o7 aot t5at.

THE COURT: 9oe &o7. /5at+ @o eact0o to

t5e co88et+ I ea=

R! DUNC#N: I6 I8 e8e8e07 coectl@, t5e 0=ea

&a+ t5at t5e Cot &a+ o)e0=07 a le70+lat0)e c5o0ce eca+e

o6 0t+ o& ot0o+ o6 e)ol)07 +ta=a=+ o6 =ecec@.

THE COURT: It &a+ a ca0tal 0+58et ca+e. It &a+

&urman v. )eorgia, a= 0t &a+ J+t0ce Po&ell+ =0++et, o0e=5 3

15 2

-5 2

35 2

'5 2

"5 2


33/72

33

0 @ J+t0ce Re5>0+t a= J+t0ce Black8.

R! DUNC#N: R075t. R075t. /ell, 8@ eact0o to

t5at 0+ t5at &5e t5e Cot e)e+e= 0t+el6, t5e Cot &a+

eco70G07 t5at 0t ee=e= to kee 0t+ 5a=+ o66 o6 8ak07

t5o+e k0= o6 ol0c@ =ete80at0o+ 0 t5e =eat5 ealt@ aea.

A= t5at+, @ t5e &a@, e)e t5o75 t5ee 0+ a e)ol)07

+ta=a=, a =ecec@ +ta=a= 0 t5e E075t5 A8e=8et. T5ee 0+

o +c5 +ta=a= 0 t5e Foteet5 A8e=8et, 075t, +o t5at+

8@ eact0o to t5at.No&, @o +eco= 5@ot5et0cal 0)ol)e= a7e a=

co+a700t@ e>0e8et+ a8o7 t5e +tate+.

THE COURT: /5at I 7et 6o8 a lot o6 t5e 0e6+ a=

t5e ae+ a= t5e a80c+ +80++0o+ 0+ t5at eole 5a)e a

075t to e 0 lo)e a= 06 t5at lo)07 elat0o+50 0+ 7e0e

a= 5a+ a e8aece a= 06 t5e@ =ec0=e t5e@ &at to 7et

8a0e=, t5e@ +5ol= 5a)e a co+t0tt0oal 075t to =o t5at.

R! DUNC#N: T5at+ 8@ =e+ta=07.

THE COURT: I t50k t5at+ a 6a0 c5aacte0Gat0o o6

t5e 8e++a7e, alt5o75 0t+ +o8et08e+ +oke 0 =066eet &a@+.

I t50k t5at+ t5e keel o6 t5e =0+te. So 8@ >e+t0o+

elate to a++807 t5at lo)07 elat0o+50 a= t5at

e8aece, &5at aot a at a= a 0ece /5at aot a

6at5e a= a +o, o a 6at5e a= a =a75te, o a cle a= a

e5e&, o 60+t co+0+

R! DUNC#N: /ell, &5at @o >e+t0o o0t+ to,5 5

15 4

-5 4

35 4

'5 4

"5 4


34/72

3'

9o Hoo, 0+ t5at t5ee 0+ a 075t to 8a@. T5ee+ o

>e+t0o t5at t5ee ae ca+e+ t5at talk aot a 075t to 8a@,

t t5ee 0+ a lo7 l0e o6 ca+e+ t5at +a@ &e 5a)e to cae6ll@

=e60e t5e a++ete= 075t 0 a@ at0cla ca+e.

Let+ take a7e, 6o ea8le. So Windsor

+ec060call@ ote= t5at +tate+ )a@ 0 t5e e80++0le a7e o6

8a0a7e. Windsoro0te= ot I el0e)e 0t+ Ne& Ha8+50e

t5at t5e 80088 a7e 0+ 13. No&, ae +tate+ co+t0tt0oall@

e8o&ee= to 8ake t5o+e =066eet c5o0ce+ T5o+e ae+07060cat ol0c@ c5o0ce+ aot t5e a7e o6 8a0a7e.

I6 +o8eoe +5o&e= a= +a0=, Look, I 5a)e a

0te+e e+oal co880t8et to a 13@eaol=, a= I8 0 a

+tate t5at =oe+t allo& t5at ot Ne& Ha8+50e, +o8e ot5e

+tate &5ee t5e a7e o6 8a0a7e 0+ 1< o 1( o 1? &ol= t5at

e+o e ale to 8ake a 075tto8a0a7e a78et =e

Zablocki, =e Turner, =e Loving v. *irginia

F0+t o6 all, t5e a+&e 0+ o eca+e,

cae6ll@ =e+c0e=, t5ee 0+ o =eel@ oote= 075t to 8a@ a

13@eaol= 0 o at0oal 50+to@. A +tate 8a@ c5oo+e to =o

t5at, t t5ee+ o =eel@ oote= 075t =e t5e De Poce++

Cla+e.

Windsor+a0= t5at +tate+ 8a@ )a@ o t507+ l0ke

a7e a= e80++0le =e7ee o6 co+a700t@, &50c5 @o o0t to

60+t co+0+. No&, I =ot ko& o66 t5e to o6 8@ 5ea= 5o&

8a@ +tate+ allo& 60+t co+0+ to 8a@. It+ oal@ a5 7

15 5

-5 5

35 5

'5 5

"5 5


35/72

3"

8ao0t@ o6 t5e +tate+. T5e >e+t0o 0+ =o @o 5a)e a

6=a8etal 075t to ete 0to t5at elat0o+50, a= t5e

a+&e 5a+ to e o a+e= o &5at Windsor+a0= a= a+e= o o

at0oal 50+to@.

It+ ot a >e+t0o o6 =e8ea07 t5e eole &5o

&at to ete 0to t5e elat0o+50. It+ a >e+t0o o6

&ell, 0t+ t&o >e+t0o+. It+ a >e+t0o o6 =e6007 o

at0oal 50+to@ a= ta=0t0o+. A= 0t+ al+o a >e+t0o o6

=0c0al e+ta0t eca+e 0 all t5o+e =e oce++ ca+e+, t5eSe8e Cot +a0=, Look, t5e ea+o t5at &e 5a)e to e cae6l

0 =e+c007 t5e 075t 0+ eca+e ot5e&0+e t5e e6eece+ o6

t5e 8e8e+ o6 t50+ Cot &0ll eco8e at o6 t5e Co+t0tt0o.

S+tat0)e =e oce++, +o8e eole lo)e 0t,

+o8e eole 5ate 0t, t I t50k =7e+ &5o 5a)e to a=800+te

0t eco70Ge t5e Se8e Cot ceta0l@ =oe+ t5at 0t 5a+

to e ca0e= coectl@. So look, 6o 0+tace, at t5e

075tto=0e ca+e++ )lucksberg! ,ru'an. /e +a@ 075tto=0e

ca+e+ a+ a +5ot5a=, t t5e Se8e Cot 5a+ to =e60e t5at

075t 8c5 8oe cae6ll@ to 607e ot &5@ ceta0 t507+ ae

0cl=e= 0 0t a= ceta0 t507+ ae ot.

O ol@ o0t 5ee 0+ t5at tak07 ot t5e

7e=e o6 t5e oo+e= +o+e 0+ t5e @o 5a)e to 0cl=e

t5at 0 t5e =e+c0t0o o6 t5e 075t a++ete=, a= t5at 075t

0+ ot =eel@ oote=. I6 t5ee+ a@ =ot aot 0t! Windsor

0t+el6 +a0= a= I ko& I >ote= t50+ a lot 0 t5e 0e6+,5 8

15 7

-5 7

35 7

'5 7

"5 7


36/72

3ote 0t a7a0, &5ee J+t0ce ;ee=@ &ote

8a0a7e et&ee a 8a a= a &o8a o =ot 5a+ ee t5o75t

o6 @ 8o+t eole a+ e++et0al to t5e )e@ =e600t0o o6 t5at

te8. He &et o to &0te t5e l080tat0o o6 la&6l 8a0a7e

to 5eteo+eal cole+ 6o cet0e+ 5a= ee =ee8e= ot5

ece++a@ a= 6=a8etal.

No&, I8 ot ea=07 6o8 a =0++et. I8

ea=07 6o8 t5e 8ao0t@ o00o. /5at J+t0ce ;ee=@ a=

t5e 8ao0t@ 0+ +a@07 0+ t5at Ne& 9ok 5a+ t5e a0l0t@, t5eco+t0tt0oal a0l0t@ o6 0t+ c0t0Ge+ to co8e to a 6o8at0o

o6 co+e++ aot t5e0 e)ol)07 ot0o+ o6 e>al0t@. T5at+

&5@ &e 5a)e "# +tate+.

THE COURT: 9o et to t5e =e8ocat0c oce++.

R! DUNC#N: T5at+ coect.

THE COURT: 9o a78et al&a@+ take+ @o to t5e

=e8ocat0c oce++.

R! DUNC#N: /ell, &0t5 all =e e+ect, 9o Hoo,

t5at+ eca+e Windsoral&a@+ lea=+ 8e t5ee. Windsor7oe+ o

6o +e)e a7e+ aot t50+. I cote= t5e 5a+e de-initiono

de-inemarriageo)e 1# t08e+ 0 Windsor. I ote t5at Windsor,

0t+ ot oe o6 t5e+e +ot o6, >ote%>ote, +tate+ 075t+

a78et+ &5ee @o +a@, Look, &5ate)e t5e +tate+ &at to =o,

t5at+ oka@. T5at+ ot t5e a78et. T5ee+ a o+0t0)e

ot0o to 6e=eal0+8.

THE COURT: T5at+ a ac0al a78et.5 9

15 8

-5 8

35 8

'5 8

"5 8


37/72

3(

R! DUNC#N: It+ a a= a78et. T5at+ a a=

a78et. T5e 075t a78et 0+ t5e &a@ t5at Windsort 0t,

&50c5 0+ t5e =@a80c+ o6 +tate 7o)e8et 0 t5e 6e=eal

+@+te8 ae to allo& t5e 6o8at0o o6 co+e++. T5at+ a &0+e

=ec0+0o eca+e 06 @o =ot 5a)e a 7e0e 6o8at0o o6

co+e++, 5o& ca a +tate eall@ 8ake t50+ =ec0+0o

9o ko&, t5e la0t066+ a= t5e =0+t0ct cot+

ao= t5e cot@ ae +a@07 t5e +tate+ caot o0t to a@

5a8 t5at &ol= co8e 6o8 eco70G07 +a8e+e 8a0a7e.Windsor70)e+ t5e e+o+e to t5at. Windsor0t+el6 eco70Ge+

t5at &5e a +tate =e60e+ 8a0a7e, 0t eco70Ge+ t5at 8a0a7e

0+ 8oe t5a a ot0e cla++060cat0o 6o o+e+ o6 +tatto@

ee60t+. Windsoreco70Ge= t5at.

T5e +tate+ eco70Ge 5o& 08otat 8a0a7e 0+.

T5e Cot +a0= t5e +tate+ 5a)e t5e e+o+00l0t@ 6o =o8e+t0c

elat0o+ eca+e t5e@ 0=0cate t5e ++tat0al +oc0etal

08act. So t5ee+ o >e+t0o t5at 8a0a7e 0+ 08otat,

&50c5 0+ &5@ +tate+ 5a)e to e cat0o+ a= 5a)e a 7e0e

6o8at0o o6 co+e++ e6oe t5e@ =o t50+.

THE COURT: Do @o a7ee t5at t5e la0t066+ ae

a770e)e=

R! DUNC#N: A+oltel@. T5e@ ae a770e)e=. Bt

Windsor0+tct+ + t5at t5at 70e)ace ee=+ to e a==e++e=

@ t5e =e8ocat0c oce++, a+ 0t &a+ 0 Ne& 9ok a= a+ 0t 5a+

ee 0, I cot, 13 ot5e +tate+. T5at+ &5ee &e =o t50+ +o0 1

15 9

-5 9

35 9

'5 9

"5 9


38/72

3?

t5at &e ca 5a)e eace 0 o at0o.

9o ko&, I 6o7et &5o 0t &a+ +a0= J+t0ce

Ol0)e /e=ell Hol8e+ oal@ &5o +a0= o Co+t0tt0o 0+

8a=e 6o eole o6 =066e07 te8ea8et+ a= =066e07

=78et+. He oal@ +a0= t5at 0 Lochnero +o8et507,

=0++et07 0 Lochner.

THE COURT: 2eat 8a.

R! DUNC#N: /ell, 0t 0+. A= o a 0++e l0ke t50+

&5ee eole =0+a7ee t5ee+ o >e+t0o eole =0+a7ee6=a8etall@ &5at 0+ 8a0a7e, &5at =oe+ e>al0t@ 8ea. I6

t5ee+ a 6=a8etal =0+a7ee8et aot 0t, 5o& =oe+ o

Co+t0tt0o take cae o6 t5at oce++ B@ 5a)07 a el0ca

6o8 o6 7o)e8et &5ee eole ca =eate t5e+e 0++e+ +t

l0ke t5e eole o6 0c507a =eate= t5e +e+0t0)e 0++e o6

a6608at0)e act0o 0 Schuettea= +t l0ke t5e eole o6 t5e

+tate+ ae =o07 0t o&.

I t50k 0t+ e8akale t5at oe o6 t5e

=ec0+0o+ t5at &e c0te 8o+t o6 all 0+ t5e Hernande'ca+e 6o8

Ne& 9ok. T5at+ a -##< o00o a= @et I 5a)e to +a@, &0t5

all =e e+ect to t5e =7e+ ao= t5e cot@, 0t+ e07

teate= a+ 06 0t &ee a at o6 ac0et 50+to@.

THE COURT: /ell, t5e 6act 0+ t5at t5o+e =7e+

ao= t5e cot@ 5a)e +oke ot ett@ +to7l@, a= t5e@

ceta0l@ +ee a co+t0tt0oal +tcte t5at I)e ee a+k07

aot.0 2

10 1

-0 1

30 1

'0 1

"0 1


39/72

3$

R! DUNC#N: /ell, 9o Hoo

THE COURT: I ko& t5at 0t+ @o a78et t5at t5e@

ae &o7, t

R! DUNC#N: I t50k 8@ a78et 0+ al+o t5at a 6a0

ea=07 o6 Windsor+5o&+ &5@ t5e@ ae 80+take aot &5at t5e@

ae =o07. I 60= 0t e8akale 0 look07 t5o75 all t5o+e

o00o+, 5o&e)e 8a@ t5ee ae 11, 1-, 13 o00o+ to

look a= 60= all t5e >otat0o+ 6o8 Windsoraot t5e

e++et0al a= 50+to0c at5o0t@ o6 +tate+ to =e60e 8a0a7e,@o +t =ot 60= 0t.

I t5e itcheno00o ot o6 Uta5, @o =o 60=

t5e cot at lea+t +a@07 t5at t5ee ae 08otat 6e=eal0+8

coce+. T5at &a+ oe o6 t5e eal@ o00o+. T5e cot +t

+ot o6 a++e= @ t5at a= +a0=, /ell, t5e 0=0)0=al 075t+

t8 0t. Bt a+ @o 7o 6o&a=, &5at all t5e+e =ec0+0o+ ae

=o07 0+ 0l=07 o t5e itchen=ec0+0o, 0 o )0e&, a=

t5e@ ae +a@07, Look! itchen0+ 075t, a= t5e@ +t +ot o6

0l= o t5at. T5e@ ae ot 70)07 eo75 attet0o to t5e

+tctal 6e=eal0+8 =08e+0o+ o6Windsor.

I 60= 0t e8akale. I caot ela0 0t. Bt

0t+ 075t t5ee 0 lack a= &50te 0 Windsor. I =o t50k

0t+ )e@ +07060cat t5at t5e at5o o6 Windsor0+ a +t0ce,

J+t0ce ;ee=@, &5o &0te+ )e@ elo>etl@ aot 0=0)0=al

075t+ t at t5e +a8e t08e &0te+ )e@ elo>etl@ aot t5e

+tcte o6 o Co+t0tt0o 0 a ca+e l0ke Bonda= Windsor0 4

10 2

-0 2

30 2

'0 2

"0 2


40/72

'#

a= Schuettea=

THE COURT: I6 t50+ ca+e 7oe+ to t5e Se8e Cot

e)etall@, 5o& &0ll J+t0ce ;ee=@ )ote

R! DUNC#N: /ell, ot 5a)07 ee le++e= &0t5 t5e

o&e o6 o5ec@, I &0ll a+&e t5e >e+t0o t50+ &a@.

Re8e8e t5ee &ee t&o ca+e+ t5ee, Hollingsworth v. %erry

a= Windsor, a= t5e Cot =0+80++e= Hollingsworth6o lack o6

aellate +ta=07.

So 5ee+ 8@ 7e++. S0ce @o a+ke= 8e to7e++, I &0ll 7e++. I &ol= +a@ t5at J+t0ce ;ee=@ &ol=

5a)e &0tte Hollingsworthto e t5e ooke= to Windsor.

Windsor+5o&+ t5at t5e 6e=eal 7o)e8et cat o)e0=e +tate

c5o0ce+ aot 8a0a7e. T50+ 5@ot5et0cal Hollingsworth

o00o &ol= 5a)e +a0= t5e +tate+ =o 5a)e t5e +o)ee07

at5o0t@ to =ec0=e t5e 8a0a7e >e+t0o.

THE COURT: So @o t50k J+t0ce ;ee=@ &ol= )ote

=066eetl@ 0 t50+ ca+e t5a 5e =0= 0 Windsor

R! DUNC#N: It &ol=t e =066eet, 9o Hoo.

It &ol= e co+0+tet &0t5 t5e at0oale 0 Windsor. It &ol=

e a )ote to 5ol= +tate +o)ee07t@, &50c5 0+ t5e +a8e )ote

t5at 5e 7a)e 0 Windsor.

THE COURT: T5ak @o.

R! DUNC#N: T5ak @o.

R! COURSON: 9o Hoo, I +t &at to 8ake t&o

>0ck o0t+ 0 ettal. F0+t, t50+ 0=ea t5at t5e Cot 0 5

10 4

-0 4

30 4

'0 4

"0 4


41/72

'1

THE COURT: I =ot t50k 5e le6t a@ &50+ke@ 6o

@o. Do @o &at a e60ll I t50k 5e ee=e= a c5 508+el6.

R! COURSON: t5at t5e Cot +5ol= =e6e to t5e

=e8ocat0c oce++ &5e a==0cat07 80o0t@ 6=a8etal

075t+, t5at+ e)e ee t5e la&. T5e cot+ 5a)e a

6la7707 ol07at0o to a==0cate t5e la0t066+ e6oe t5e8,

a= &5e t5e@ 0)ol)e 80o0t@ 6=a8etal 075t+ t5at 0+ a

5e075tee= =e o t5e cot+.

I &ol= c0te t5e Cot to irchbergv. &eenstra.THE COURT: /a0t oe +eco=.

2o a5ea=. /5at+ t5e a8e I+ t50+ 0 @o

0e6

R! COURSON: It+ ot, 9o Hoo. It+

'"# U.S. '"" &5ee t5e Se8e Cot +tck =o& Lo0+0aa+

THE COURT: /5at+ t5e a8e o6 t5e ca+e

R! COURSON: irchberg v. &eenstra.

THE COURT: ;IRCHBER2

R! COURSON: T5e Se8e Cot +tck =o&

Lo0+0aa+ 5ea=a=8a+te +tatte e7a=07 8a0a7e. So

=e ta=0t0oal Lo0+0aa c0)0l la&, t5e 5+a= o6 t5e

8a0a7e &a+ t5e 5ea= a= 8a+te o6 t5e 8a0a7e a= col=

al0eate t5e co880t@ oet@ &0t5ot e80++0o 6o8 t5e

&06e. T5e Se8e Cot +tck t5at la& =o&. It+ a ea8le

o6 t5e Cot eec0+07 0t+ 075t to otect t5e 6=a8etal

075t+ o6 t5e 80o0t@ 7o.0 6

10 5

-0 5

30 5

'0 5

"0 5


42/72

'-

THE COURT: /5e &a+ 0t =ec0=e=

R! COURSON: I t50k 0t &a+ =ec0=e= 0 1$?#,

9o Hoo.

THE COURT: 1$?#.

R! COURSON: I at0cla &0t5 7a@+ a= le+0a+,

9o Hoo, 06 &e let t5e =e8ocat0c oce++ la@ ot 0 t50+

+tate 0 at0cla, &e ko& &5at t5e e+lt &0ll e 6o t5e

6oe+eeale 6te.

THE COURT: /ell, 0t 5a+t ee 0 ot5e +tate+.I8 +t &o=e07 &5at @o a+e t5at o.

R! COURSON: /ell, Lo0+0aa cot0e+ to

c080al0Ge co+e+al 0t08ac@ et&ee 7a@+ a= le+0a+

=e+0te t5e 6act t5at Lawrence=eclae= t5at la&

co+t0tt0oal 11 @ea+ a7o.

THE COURT: R075t. I =e+ta= t5at. I8 ot 7o07

to co88et o Lo0+0aa ol0t0c+ ecet to e80= @o t5at I

5a)e alea=@ =ealt &0t5 t5e co+t0tt0oal0t@ o6 t5e +e

o66e=e e70+tat0o +tatte.

R! COURSON: a0a7e 0+ a 6=a8etal 075t.

Ul0ke @o 5@ot5et0cal &5ee @o talke= aot +ecta0a

e=cat0o, e=cat0o 0+ ot a 6=a8etal 075t, t 8a0a7e

0+.

THE COURT: /5at aot t5e at a= t5e 0ece &5o

&at to 7et 8a0e=

R! COURSON: /ell, I ceta0l@ t50k t5at t5e +tate0 8

10 6

-0 6

30 6

'0 7

"0 7


43/72

'3

col= 8+te a co+t0tt0oal +t060cat0o 6o &5@ t5o+e t&o

0=0)0=al+ +5ol= ot e e80tte= to 8a@.

THE COURT: 9o t50k t5e +tate col=

R! COURSON: I t50k t5e +tate col= 8+te a

co+t0tt0oal

THE COURT: 9o =o.

R! COURSON: Bt t5e +tate 5ee 5a+ ot 8+tee= a@

+t060cat0o 6o eco70G07 8@ cl0et+ 8a0a7e. Re8e8e,

8@ cl0et+ ae alea=@ )al0=l@ 8a0e=. K)eat08THE COURT: I =e+ta= t5at.

R! COURSON: T5e +tate 5a+ 8+tee= a+oltel@ o

at0oale 6o &5@ t5e@ &ol= e6+e to 8a@. I 8ea, t5e

at0oale+ e6oe, oceat0o, +oc0al co+e++, oe o6 t5o+e

5a)e ee

THE COURT: Let 8e a+k @o oe la+t >e+t0o, a=

t5e &e ae 7o07 to 5a)e to 7et to +o8e 5o+ekee07 0++e+.

J+t0ce ;ee=@ &ote t50+. E)e@o=@ 0+ c0t07

J+t0ce ;ee=@ a= Windsora=, o6 co+e, 8@ e+o+00l0t@

0+ to t@ to =ec0=e &5at, 06 a@, 0=07 6oce Windsor5a+,

=0ectl@ o 0=0ectl@, >0te 6akl@.

I t50k I =e+ta= @o a+&e, t I &ol=

l0ke @o 0e6 e+o+e a@&a@. I 6act, I &0ll 70)e ot5

+0=e+ a c5ace to e+o= +t )e@ 0e6l@, a= t5e &e &0ll

7et to +o8e 5o+ekee07.

T5e =@a80c+ o6 +tate 7o)e8et 0 t5e 6e=eal0 9

10 8

-0 8

30 8

'0 8

"0 8


44/72

''

+@+te8 t50+ 0+ a >ote ae to allo& t5e 6o8at0o o6

co+e++ e+ect07 t5e &a@ t5e 8e8e+ o6 a =0+cete

co880t@ teat eac5 ot5e 0 t5e0 =a0l@ cotact a= co+tat

0teact0o &0t5 eac5 ot5e. I+ t5at a co88et aot e)ol)07

+ta=a=+ o6 =ecec@ o aot t5e o+te++ 6o t5e ee= 6o a

=e8ocat0c oce++

R! COURSON: 9o Hoo, I =ot ko& t5e cotet o6

t5at ca+e.

THE COURT: T50+ 0+ Windsor.R! COURSON: O5.

THE COURT: T50+ 0+ J+t0ce ;ee=@ 0 Windsor,

a7e 1$ o6 t5e o00o.

R! COURSON: Ca @o ea= t5e >ote a7a0 6o 8e,

9o Hoo

THE COURT: 9e+. T5e =@a80c+ o6 +tate

7o)e8et t5e =@a80c+ o6 +tate 7o)e8et 0 t5e

6e=eal +@+te8 ae to allo& t5e 6o8at0o o6 co+e++

e+ect07 t5e &a@ t5e 8e8e+ o6 a =0+cete co880t@ teat

eac5 ot5e 0 t5e0 =a0l@ cotact a= co+tat 0teact0o &0t5

eac5 ot5e.

No&, 5e +a@+ t5at+ &5at Ne& 9ok =0=. No&, 0+

t5at &5at Lo0+0aa =0=

R! COURSON: No, 0t+ ot &5at Lo0+0aa 5a+ =oe.

Lo0+0aa 5a+ eecte= t5e 0=ea o6 +a8e+e 8a0a7e a=

ceate= t5e+e t&o e>al +c5e8e+, l0ke Ne& 9ok, &50c5 1 0

10 9

-0 9

30 9

'0 9

"0 9


45/72

'"

THE COURT: Ne& 9ok 5a= t5e 075t to =o &5at 0t =0=.

Ne& 9ok 5a= t5e 075t to =o &5at 0t =0=, +a@+ J+t0ce ;ee=@.

I 7e++ t5e a+&ee= >e+t0o t5+ 6a 0+ =0= Lo0+0aa 5a)e

t5e 075t, t5o75 0t+ =e8ocat0c oce++, to =o &5at 0t =0=.

R! COURSON: Not &5e 0t 0807e+ o 8@ cl0et+

6=a8etal 075t+ to 8a@.

A= a7a0, 9o Hoo, I &ol= +t e80= t5e

Cot t5at Lo0+0aa al+o eco70Ge+ )al0= 8a0a7e+ &50c5 t5e

+tate 5ee =oe+ ot allo& celeat07, l0ke @o 60+tco+08a0a7e ea8le. K)eat08

THE COURT: @ 60+t co+0 =0=t 7et 8a0e=.

Fakl0 Roo+e)elt 8a0e= 50+ 60+t co+0, t5o75. D0= @o

ko& t5at

R! COURSON: I =0= ot ko& t5at, 9o Hoo.

THE COURT: He =0=. Eleao &a+ 50+ 60+t co+0.

R! COURSON: T5ak @o, 9o Hoo.

THE COURT: T5ak @o, o& t5at @o ae +o

el075tee=.

. Dca, I &a+ 7o07 to 70)e @o a 0e6

c5ace to e+o=.

R! DUNC#N: I =ot 5a)e a@t507 6t5e. I6 @o

5a)e a@ 6t5e >e+t0o+ 6o 8e

THE COURT: No. I =o 5a)e +o8e 5o+ekee07, t5o75,

a= 0t+ atl@ 8@ 6alt. T50+ 0+ +80tte=, @ t5e &a@.

T5ee ae +e)eal 0++e+ t5at @o all aaetl@1 2

11 1

-1 1

31 1

'1 1

"1 1


46/72

'al

otect0o cla08 e7a=07 t5e eco70t0o o6 oto6+tate

+a8e+e 8a0a7e+ a= t5e 075t to 8a@ 0 Lo0+0aa. /ell,

t5at+ ee a7e= 5ee, t5o75, 075t

R! DUNC#N: 9o Hoo, 8@ =e+ta=07 0+ t5at &e

a7ee= to =o t5e eco70t0o cla08+.

THE COURT: T5e@ o)ela.

R! DUNC#N: A= 0 oe o6 t5e ca+e+ I t50k 0t+

No. 1'$( t5ee ae al+o cla08+ t5at Lo0+0aa +5ol= allo&

8a0e= +a8e+e cole+

THE COURT: T5e 075t to 8a@.

R! DUNC#N: T5at+ 075t. /e a7ee= ot to a==e++

t5at.

THE COURT: /ell, t5at+ +t0ll e=07, t5e 075t to

8a@, 0 No. 1'$(.

I No. 1'$(, eco70t0o a= et0tle8et to a1 3

11 2

-1 2

31 2

'1 2

"1 2


47/72

'(

8a0a7e l0ce+e I el0e)e 0+ +t0ll e=07, &5eea+ 0

No. 1'3-( eco70t0o ol@, &50c5 o6 co+e 5a+ ee =ealt

&0t5.

I No. 1'$(, 6ll 6a0t5 a= ce=0t, ot5

eco70t0o a= t5e l0ce+e 0++e a= 0 No. 1'3-(, t5e

F0+t A8e=8et a= eco70t0o 0++e ol@.

So t5ee ae +t0ll +o8e e=07 0++e+ o6 la&.

No&, 8@ >e+t0o 0+ &ell, let 8e ack . I6 t5e =e6e+e

ee=+ t08e to e+o= to t5e c0tat0o o6 irchbergR! DUNC#N: No, &e =ot, 9o Hoo.

THE COURT: /e =ot ee= 0e607 o t5at, t =o

@o &at 0e607 o t5e+e 0++e+ t5at I 5a)e +t 5075l075te=

o =o @o &a0)e 0e607 Do @o &at oal a78et o t5o+e

0++e+ o =o @o &a0)e oal a78et Do @o &at to 5a)e a

co6eece

R! COURSON: 9o Hoo, t5e &orum-or/0ualityca+e

a= t5e F0+t A8e=8et 0++e, I el0e)e 06 t5e Cot le+ 0

6a)o o6 t5e la0t066+ o t5e eco70t0o cla08+, t5e &e

&ol= e &0ll07 to =0+80++ t5e F0+t A8e=8et cla08 &0t5ot

e=0ce a+ e07 8oot.

THE COURT: /ell, t5at+ 8@ o0t. I =ot &at to

=ec0=e t5e+e ca+e+ 0ece8eal. I t50k 0t+ ol@ 6a0 to t5e

l0t07at+ a= I t50k 0t+, 6akl@, ol@ 6a0 to t5e l0c

t5at t5e+e 0++e+, &5ate)e t5e@ 8075t e t5at ae +t0ll

e=07 a= e+ol)e=, +5ol= e a==e++e= oe &a@ o aot5e,1 5

11 3

-1 3

31 4

'1 4

"1 4


48/72

'?

e0t5e @ a &a0)e o& o @ a==0t0oal 0e607 a= oal

a78et 06 e>e+te=. T5at+ 8@ o0t.

R! DUNC#N: a@ I e+o=, 9o Hoo

THE COURT: 9e+.

R! DUNC#N: Oka@. T&o t507+. Not 0ece8eal07 0t

0+ )e@ 08otat to t5e +tate eca+e t5ee ae a 8e o6

aeal+ 7o07 6o&a= alea=@. So 0t 0+ 08otat t5at

&5ate)e =78et t50+ Cot e=e+ o t5e cla08+ to=a@ t5at

0t e a +eaatel@ aealale o=e. /e ae &0ll07 to 8ake aRle "' 8ot0o, 06 ece++a@, to 8ake +e t5at 0t+ a

aealale o=e. So t5at+ a 08otat coce to t5e +tate.

/5et5e t50+ Cot 7oe+ a5ea= a= =ec0=e+ ot5e

0++e+, &e ca talk aot 0t. At t50+ o0t o )0e& 0+ t50+.

T5e F0+t A8e=8et cla08 t5at . Co+o 5a+ o75t, t5at

+ee8+ +eaale to +. T5at +ee8+ l0ke a 0++e t5at 5a+ to

+ta= o 0t+ o& le7+. T5at &ol= e>0e +o8e k0= o6

+eaate ocee=07.

THE COURT: /ell, 0t 5a+t ee 0e6e=

R! DUNC#N: It 5a+t ee 0e6e=.

THE COURT: a= I 5a)e 5a= o a78et aot a@

o6 t5e+e 0++e+.

R! DUNC#N: O )0e& 0+ &50le t5e Cot 0+

THE COURT: Fll 6a0t5 a= ce=0t 8075t e a+ +e0o+

a+ t5e ot5e 0++e+ t5at 5a)e ee a0+e= to=a@.

R! DUNC#N: /ell, I +5ol= a0+e t5at, t5e. Let 8e1 6

11 5

-1 5

31 5

'1 5

"1 5


49/72

'$

+t a0+e t5at 60+t. T5e +tate 5a+ a+ke= 9o Hoo a=

@o 8a@ c5oo+e ot to eac5 t50+. I =ot ko& &5at t5e

Cot+ )0e& 0+ o t50+. T5e +tate 5a+ +a0= t5at t5e 6ll

6a0t5 a= ce=0t cla08 +5ol= e =0+80++e= 6o 6a0le to +tate

a cla08.

THE COURT: I ko&, t I8 ot 7o07 to =0+80++ 0t.

I8 ot 7o07 to =0+80++ 0t o t5e +tate o6 t5e eco= a+ 0t 0+

e+etl@.

R! DUNC#N: [email protected] COURT: I6 0t+ a +e0o+ 0++e, 0t+ 7o07 to e

0e6e= a= e5a+ e)e a7e= 06 @o &at oal a78et. I8

ot +t 7o07 to take a 0++e o6 co+t0tt0oal la& a= +a@,

O5, &ell, 0t+ ot el0e= o a+ 8c5 a+ 8a@e t5e ot5e 0++e+

ae, a=, t5ee6oe, 07oe 0t.

R! DUNC#N: /ell, a+ I =e+ta= 0t, t5e +tate+

o+0t0o 0+ t50+. A6te &e 5a)e a7e= t5e+e 0++e+, &50c5 ae

=0+t0ct 0++e+ t5e eco70t0o cla08 0+ a =0+t0ct 0++e.

I t50k . Co+o a7ee+ &0t5 t5at.

THE COURT: T5e@ ae =0+t0ct 0++e+, t t5ee ae

e+ol)e= 0++e+. T5at+ 8@ o0t.

R! DUNC#N: /ell, t5e, I 7e++, 9o Hoo, 0t

=ee=+ o &5at t5e Cot+ e6eece 0+. /5at+ 08otat to

t5e +tate 0+ t5at 06 t5e Cot 0++e+ a =ec0+0o o &5at &e

5a)e a7e= 5ee to=a@, t5at 0t e a +eaate aealale o=e.

I el0e)e 0 o a7ee8et, t5e +c5e=l07 a7ee8et, &e +a0=1 8

11 6

-1 6

31 7

'1 7

"1 7


50/72

"#

&e &ol= a==e++ t5e+e 0++e+ 60+t, &0t5 t5e 5oe+ o6 5a)07 a

+eaate aealale o=e, a= t5e =ec0=e a6te t5at 5o& &e

&ol= =eal &0t5 t5e e8a0=e.

R! COURSON: I =ot =0+a7ee &0t5 . Dca.

THE COURT: 9o =ot =0+a7ee &0t5 508

R! COURSON: No. I el0e)e t5at+ coect. /e

&ol= a7ee to 5a)e t50+ 0++e 5ea= @ t5e Cot. I6 t5e

Cot le+ 0 6a)o o6 t5e =e6e=at+, t5e &e &ol= ocee=

&0t5 t5e a==0cat0o o6 t5e F0+t A8e=8et cla08.THE COURT: /ell, +ee, t5at+ ot &5at I &at to =o,

t5o75. T5at+ 8@ o0t.

R! COURSON: 9o Hoo, I 5a)et talke= to 8@

cl0et+ aot a otet0al &a0)e o6 t5at a78et.

THE COURT: /ell, I =ot &at to 6oce @o to &a0)e

a@t507. @ o0t 0+ t5at I 6eel co86otale e+ol)07 +o8e

0++e+ oe &a@ o t5e ot5e a= ot all 0++e+ oe &a@ o t5e

ot5e.

R! DUNC#N: a@e t50+ &0ll 5el, 9o Hoo. I

5a)e o 0=ea 5o& t5e Cot 0+ 7o07 to le. I6 t5e Cot =0=

le

THE COURT: Ne0t5e =oe+ t5e Cot.

R! DUNC#N: Let+ +a@ t50+. H@ot5et0call@, 06 t5e

Cot le= 6o t5e +tate o t5e eco70t0o 0++e+, t5e &e

e++et0all@ &ol= e t5e oo+0te o6 t5e ;etck@ ca+e. T5e

;etck@ ca+e 0+ l080te= to eco70t0o 0++e+ 075t o&. It+1 9

11 8

-1 8

31 8

'1 8

"1 8


51/72

"1

o aeal 0 t5e S0t5 C0c0t. It &0ll e a7e= 0

A7+t.

THE COURT: B@ t5e &a@, t5at+ t5e =7e I 8etoe=,

J=7e He@.

R! DUNC#N: /e &ol= e t5e oo+0te o6 t5at. /e

&ol= 5a)e a =78et 7o07 t5e ot5e &a@ o t5e eco70t0o

0++e. O o+0t0o &ol= e t5e Cot col= 5a)e a +eaate

aealale o=e o t5at =e Rle "'. T5at &ol= e oe &a@

to t50k aot 0t./5at I ca tell @o, t5o75, &5at t5e +tate

&ol= a7e &0t5 e+ect to t5e 8a0a7e l0ce+e 0++e, 06 t5e

Cot le= 6o + o t5e eco70t0o 0++e, &e &ol= +80t

t5e 8a0a7e l0ce+e 0++e. I ot5e &o=+, =oe+ Lo0+0aa

5a)e to allo& +a8e+e 8a0a7e+ to take lace, &e &ol= +80t

t5at t5e Cot+ =ec0+0o 0 6a)o o6 t5e +tate o t5e

eco70t0o 0++e &ol= co8el o6 co+e, I =ot ko& &5at

t5e at0oale &ol= e, t &e &ol= oal@ a7e t5at 0t

&ol= co8el a 60=07 o6 t5e +tate o t5e +eco= 0++e eca+e

t5o+e 0++e+ ae eall@ 8oe o le++ t5e +a8e le7al 0++e+. /e

&ol= e &0ll07 to =o t5at o 0e6+ a= ot a78et. I

=ot ko& 06 t5at+ 5el6l.

R! COURSON: I t50k, 9o Hoo, 06 t5e Cot &at+

to 8o)e 6o&a= &0t5 a==0cat0o o6 t5o+e cla08+ 088e=0atel@,

&e &ol= +t +80t t5at &e col= +80t 0e607 o t5o+e

0++e+.2 0

11 9

-1 9

31 9

'1 9

"1 9


52/72

"-

THE COURT: 9o &ol= &5at

R! COURSON: A7ee to a >0ck t08el0e o6 0e607

o t5o+e 0++e+.

R! DUNC#N: T50+ 0+ o t5e 8a0a7e l0ce+e 0++e.

THE COURT: A+ I cot t5e8, 0t+ t5e 075t to 8a@,

&50c5 0+ +eaate 6o8 t5e eco70t0o, 075t T5e l0ce+e

0++e

R! DUNC#N: /ell, t5o+e ae t5e +a8e 0++e+, a+ I

=e+ta= t5e8, 9o Hoo, t5e l0ce+e a= 075t to [email protected] COURT: T5e l0ce+e a= t5e 075t to 8a@

R! DUNC#N: I =e+ta= t5o+e to e t5e +a8e 0++e.

THE COURT: All 075t. T5e t5e ol@ e=07 0++e

a+ I =e+ta= 0t o5, o, t5ee+ t5e F0+t A8e=8et 6ee

+eec5 0++e.

R! DUNC#N: T5at+ t5e 0++e t5at &e +ee a+ 8o+t

+eaale 6o8 t5e+e. It+ a =066eet k0= o6 cla08.

THE COURT: /ell, t5ee ae t&o 0++e+, t5e l0ce+e

0++e a= t5e F0+t A8e=8et 0++e.

R! SPI$EY: I6 I 8a@, 9o Hoo.

THE COURT: 9e+.

R! SPI$EY: I 5a)e t5e la0t066+ o t5e 075t to

8a@, t5e l0ce+e 0++e. I &ol= l0ke to e ale to +eak o

e5al6 o6 t5e8.

THE COURT: 2o a5ea=.

R! SPI$EY: U t0l o& 2 1

12 0

-2 0

32 0

'2 0

"2 0


53/72

"3

THE COURT: Do @o &at 0e607 Do @o &at

a==0t0oal 0e607

R! SPI$EY: I6 t5e Cot 0+ 7o07 to le o a@ o6

t5o+e 0++e+, a+oltel@.

THE COURT: /ol= @o l0ke oal a78et

R! SPI$EY: A+oltel@.

THE COURT: All 075t. T5at+ t5e &a@ 0t+ 7o07 to

e. eet 8e 0 8@ co6eece oo8 +o &e ca t @o o a

+l075tl@ e)0+e= +c5e=le a= t5e &ell 8o)e 6o&a= 6o8t5ee. ea&50le, t50+ 8atte 0+ =e +80++0o.

I &at to t5ak, a+ I 0=0cate= @all +0t

=o&. I &at to t5ak co+el, I &at to t5ak t5e l0t07at+,

a= I e+ec0all@ &at to t5ak t5e l0c 6o t5e te060c &a@

t5at t5e@ &ee 5ee to=a@. /5ate)e @o )0e&+ ae, oe &a@ o

t5e ot5e, I 5oe t5at @o ee0ece 5ee 0 6e=eal cot

5a+ ee +o8e&5at el075te07 6o all o6 @o. I +t &at to

+te++ to all o6 @o t5at e)e@oe 0 t50+ Cot, 8@ collea7e+

o t5e ec5, &e take o e+o+00l0t0e+ )e@ +e0o+l@. I

&at to t5ak @o all 6o t5at cote+@. Cot 0+ a=oe=.

THE DEPUTY CLERK: All 0+e.

% % %

T5e 6ollo&07 ocee=07+ &ee 5el= 0 c5a8e+.

THE COURT: No&, let+ +ee. /e 5a)e t5e l0ce+e

0++e a= t5e F0+t A8e=8et 0++e. Noo=@ &at+ to 60le a@

o+ta78et 0e6+ o e>al otect0o o =e oce++2 7

12 1

-2 1

32 1

'2 1

"2 1


54/72

"'

R! COURSON: No, 9o Hoo.

R! DUNC#N: No.

THE COURT: Do @o &at 8e to 0)0te a80c+ 0e6+ o

@o 0++e+

R! SPI$EY: /5ate)e t5e Cot+ lea+e. Fakl@,

5ea07 a lot o6 t5e a78et+, a lot o6 &5at &a+ e07 a7e=

a= a lot o6 &5at 5a+ ee a7e= 0 t5e a80c+ 0e6+ +o=e=

a lot l0ke t5e 075t to 8a@. I6 I &a+ 7o07 to a0+e 8@ 5a=

o a@t507, t50+ 0+t a 075tto8a0a7e ca+e t50+ 0+ aeco70t0o ca+e. So I t50k a lot o6 0t 5a+ ee a==e++e=.

It+ ceta0l@ to t5e Cot &5at t5e Cot 6eel+ a+ t5o75

&ol= e ee60c0al to t5e Cot to 6le+5 t5at ot. A7a0, I

t50k a lot o6 a80c+ =0= a==e++ t5at 0++e. /0t5 t5at e07

+a0=

THE COURT: 9e+, t ot t5e l0t07at+.

R! SPI$EY: Bt ot t5e l0t07at+. I ceta0l@

&ol= l0ke t5e oot0t@ to a==e++ t5e 075t to 8a@ e +e

0 =et5, alt5o75 a7a0 ceta0l@ t5e Cot 5a+ +oke to a

lot o6 t5e 0++e 0 0t+ >e+t0o+ to=a@.

R! DUNC#N: a@e t50+ &0ll e 5el6l. . S0)e@,

@oe t5e ol@ +o@, Scott.

Scott 0+ t5e ol@ la&@e ee+et07 cl0et+

&0t5 t5at at0cla cla08. A8 I 075t

R! SPI$EY: 9e+.

R! DUNC#N: I6 @o &ol= 60le a 0e6 o t5at, let+2 8

12 7

-2 7

32 7

'2 7

"2 7


55/72

""

+a@ 5@ot5et0call@, t5e +tate &ol= o)0o+l@ &at to e+o=

to t5at.

I 5a)e a 6eel07, J=7e, 6ll =0+clo+e, t5at

o 0e6 0 e+o+e to 50+ a78et 0+ 7o07 to look a a&6l

lot l0ke o 0e6 0 e+o+e to t5e0 cla08+, t &e &ol=

&at to 60le a 0e6 a@&a@.

THE COURT: Do @o ee= oal a78et

R! DUNC#N: I &ol=t a+k 6o oal a78et o t5at

eca+e I &ol= e +a@07 t5e +a8e t507 I +t +a0=.R! SPI$EY: I &ol=. I 8ea, t5at+ t5e t507, 0+ I

+ee 0t a+ e07 =0+t070+5ale. T5e Cot ceta0l@ a lot

o6 t5e a78et to=a@ +ee8e= to e e)ol)07 ao= t5e 0++e

o6Windsor, &5et5e o ot Windsoral0e=, &5et5e o ot

Windsor0+ 0=07, a= oel@ t5e Cot a==e++e= t5at 0

7eat =et5 &0t5 co+el.

I t50k t5e 0++e o6 075t to 8a@,

50+to0call@ e6eec07 e)e a+ to t5e ca+e t5at &a+ c0te=

@ t5e la0t066+ to=a@ 0 clo+07, 0 t5e ettal, +eak+ to

t5e 0++e o6 &5et5e o ot t5e 6e=eal 7o)e8et 5a+ a 075t,

a 0tee+t 0 8o=06@07 t5e 8a0a7e +tcte a+ e+tal0+5e=

@ t5e State o6 Lo0+0aa 6o ea8le, t5e &a@ t5at 0t +tck

=o& t5e &5ole cocet o6 5ea= a= 8a+te. So I =ot ko&

t5at 0t &ol= +o= a lot =066eet a=, acco=07l@, I &ol=

l0ke to 5a)e t5e oot0t@ to

THE COURT: /ell, &5at I8 7o07 to =o 0+ t50+, 062 9

12 8

-2 8

32 8

'2 8

"2 8


56/72

"0ck 0e607

+c5e=le, 9o Hoo.

R! SPI$EY: T5ee+ a >e+t0o &5et5e, 9o Hoo,6ll 6a0t5 a= ce=0t 0+ t5ee

THE COURT: I 5a)et 600+5e=. I 5a)et 600+5e=.

I &at +08ltaeo+ 0e607 &0t50 t5ee &eek+,

-1 =a@+, o ot5 0++e+, t5e 075tto8a@ 0++e a= t5e

F0+t A8e=8et 0++e. I6, a6te ea=07 t5e 0e6+, I =ec0=e

I ee= oal a78et, I &0ll 5a)e aot5e co6eece &0t5 @o

a= &0t5 C5ale+. T5e &e &0ll +ee 06 &e ee= a@ a==0t0oal

oal a78et o &5et5e I ca =ec0=e o t5e 0e6+ l+, o6

co+e, o t5e a+0+ o6 to=a@+ 5ea07, t I =ot &at to

0ece8eal =ec0=e a@t507.

R! DUNC#N: I a7ee.

THE COURT: A+ I =e+ta= 0t, I8 ot +o +e

e)e o a Rle "', t5e F06t5 C0c0t =oe+t 5a)e to take 0t.

S! H#RRIS: R075t.

THE L#& CLERK: Ca I +t a== +o8et507, J=7e

THE COURT: 9e+.3 1

12 9

-2 9

33 0

'3 0

"3 0


57/72

"(

THE L#& CLERK: I &ol= +t a=)0+e t5at @o a== t5at

0t+ o all t5e e8a007 0++e+ a= a@t507 ot 0e6e= 0+

&a0)e=.

THE COURT: No, o, o. I =ot &at to =o t5at.

No, I =ot &at to =o t5at. /e all a7ee t5at t5e+e ae t5e

ol@ t&o 0++e+.

R! DUNC#N: Do @o &at to 07 6ll 6a0t5 a=

ce=0t

R! SPI$EY: T5at &a+ all I &a+ t@07 to 07 .I aolo70Ge, 9o Hoo. I =0=t 8ea to 0tet.

THE COURT: 9e+, I &at 6ll 6a0t5 a= ce=0t

0e6e=.

THE L#& CLERK: T5at+ all t5at I 8eat.

R! SPI$EY: A+ to t5at 0++e, I8 ot +e, eca+e

I t50k t5at &ol= e 8@ a78et a+ 6a a+ &5at &a+ 00t0all@

0e6e=. I &a+ +eak07 t5at I t50k t5at t5at &a+ 0 t5e

00t0al et0t0o, a= I =ot t50k t5at &a+ 6o= 0 t5e

a8e=8et.

THE L#& CLERK: I el0e)e 0t+ 0 t5e a8e=e=

co8la0t. All I8 +77e+t07 0+ t5at @o 7@+ 7o ack a=

look a= +ee &5at all t5e e8a007 cla08+ ae.

THE COURT: /a0t. I &5at a8e=8et

THE L#& CLERK: A a8e=e= co8la0t.

THE COURT: 9o a8e=e= co8la0t

R! SPI$EY: 9e+, 9o Hoo. T5e 00t0al et0t0o3 2

13 1

-3 1

33 1

'3 1

"3 1


58/72

"?

&a+ cleal@ a 6ll 6a0t5 a= ce=0t

THE COURT: I e8e8e t5at, t 0t+ ot 0 @o

a8e=e= co8la0t

R! SPI$EY: I =ot t50k t5at 0t 0+, 9o Hoo.

R! DUNC#N: @ =e+ta=07 0+ t5at 0t &a+, &50c5

0+ &5@ &e 8o)e= to =0+80++ 0t.

THE COURT: /ell, I &at 0e607 o t5e 8a0a7e

l0ce+e 0++e, t5e F0+t A8e=8et 0++e, 6ll 6a0t5 a=

ce=0t.R! DUNC#N: /e ae 60l07 t5o+e at t5e +a8e t08e,

J=7e

THE COURT: S08ltaeo+ 0e607.

R! DUNC#N: A8 I 60l07 oe 0e6 o t&o

THE COURT: J+t oe 0e6.

R! DUNC#N: Oka@. I8 60l07 oe.

S! H#RRIS: /ell &ok to7et5e to co+ol0=ate 0to

oe.

THE COURT: 9e+. I &ol= l0ke oe 0e6.

R! DUNC#N: Oe 0e6 o FFC, 075t to 8a@, a=

t5e F0+t A8e=8et.

THE COURT: R075t, o &5at I call t5e 8a0a7e

l0ce+e 0++e, eca+e t5e 075t to 8a@, 0 8@ 80= I t5o75t

&e &ee a707 t5at to=a@. I &at to e +e e)e@t507 0+

co)ee= e6oe I =ec0=e a@t507

R! DUNC#N: Se. Se.3 3

13 2

-3 2

33 2

'3 2

"3 2


59/72

"$

THE COURT: eca+e I t50k t5at e)e@oe 0+

et0tle= to a 6ll a= co8lete ee++0o o6 t5e 0++e+.

R! DUNC#N: J=7e, =o @o 5a)e a )0e& o6 +ot o6

&5at t5e cat0o o6 t5e 0e6 0+ 7o07 to e I+ 0t 7o07 to

e +t +08l@ a 6t5e 0e607 o t5e e8a007 le7al 0++e+

o 0+ 0t 7o07 to e +ot o6 a a8e=e= 8ot0o 6o +88a@

=78et o

THE COURT: I)e e>e+te= a==0t0oal 0e607 o t5e

0++e+. 9o ca e +t@le 0t A==0t0oal B0e607 Re>e+te= @t5e Cot.

R! DUNC#N: Ho& 8a@ a7e+ &ol= @o l0ke

THE COURT: /5at+ t5e l080t, -"

THE DEPUTY CLERK: -".

THE COURT: -".

S! H#RRIS: Do @o &at el@ 0e6+

THE COURT: I =ot ko& @et. I =ot ko& 06 I &at

oal a78et. I =ot ko& 06 I &at el0e+. Let+ +t

&a0t.

R! DUNC#N: Ha)et @o 7ot eo75 el0e+

THE COURT: /ell, o, @o +80++0o+ 5a)e ee )e@

o6e++0oal a= )e@ 5el6l o ot5 +0=e+. T5ak @o.

Pocee=07+ a=oe=.

% % %

13 3

-3 3

33 3

'3 3

"3 3


60/72


61/72

23 [1] 3/240 [1] 3/26 [1] 3/2Co: [2] 2/14 3/7Dalton Courson, Esq. [2] 3/2 3/2In: [9] 6/7 6/7 6/7 23/14 23/14 40/2340/23 53/20 53/20Kyle Duncan, Esq. [1] 3/2MR. COURSON: [70]MR. DUNCAN: [70]MR. PERQUE: [1] 4/9

MR. SPIVEY: [16] 4/15 4/19 52/1852/20 52/24 53/2 53/5 54/4 54/1554/23 55/9 56/8 57/8 57/13 57/24 58/3

MS. HARRIS: [5] 56/2 56/4 56/2258/15 59/14Omit elements: Timecodes [2] 2/1459/22Oral Argument [1] 3/2Page break [3] 1/23 3/7 59/22Resume elements: Timecodes [1] 3/7THE COURT: [152]THE DEPUTY CLERK: [3] 4/4 53/19

59/12THE LAW CLERK: [5] 56/23 56/2557/12 57/18 57/22

0

0097 [1] 1/5

0327 [1] 1/5

110 [1] 36/2011 [5] 6/21 21/10 23/17 39/7 42/1412 [1] 39/713 [6] 6/18 23/16 23/17 34/8 37/2539/713-5090 [1] 4/513-CV-5090 [1] 1/413-year-old [2] 34/12 34/1914-327 [2] 46/4 46/514-97 [5] 46/4 46/10 46/18 46/24 46/2514-CV-0097 [1] 1/514-CV-0327 [1] 1/516 [1] 34/141629 [1] 2/317 [1] 34/1418 [1] 34/1419 [1] 44/121980 [2] 42/2 42/4

220006 [1] 2/42006 [1] 38/192010 [1] 28/102011 [2] 28/3 28/102014 [2] 1/7 4/221 [1] 56/132250 [1] 2/6248 [1] 2/625 [5] 1/7 4/2 59/12 59/13 59/142693 [1] 28/2

330 minutes [1] 6/730 years [1] 16/15300 [1] 2/3327 [4] 46/4 46/5 47/2 47/5

4406 [1] 2/9

450 U.S. 455 [1] 41/14455 [1] 41/1447:294 [1] 8/24

5

50 [1] 36/12500 [1] 2/9504 [1] 2/105090 [2] 1/4 4/553 [1] 3/754 [3] 48/10 51/8 56/22546 [1] 1/17589-7778 [1] 2/10

7

700 [1] 1/2070116 [1] 1/2370130 [3] 1/17 1/20 2/971111 [1] 2/77778 [1] 2/10

8815 [1] 1/23

997 [6] 46/4 46/10 46/18 46/24 46/2547/4

Aabhor [1] 11/19

ability [5] 29/4 31/16 36/9 36/10 60/5able [4] 9/6 14/19 34/15 52/22about [79]above [1] 60/6above-entitled [1] 60/6absolutely [4] 37/22 43/11 53/4 53/6accept [1] 11/9according [1] 30/7accordingly [1] 55/23accurate [1] 5/17acting [2] 27/3 27/5action [8] 4/5 20/4 20/8 31/10 31/1231/20 32/2 38/15actually [2] 18/3 18/12add [3] 12/20 56/24 57/1addition [2] 9/15 15/10additional [6] 6/24 48/1 53/2 56/16 59/859/9address [4] 46/21 50/1 54/13 54/17addressed [4] 37/23 47/25 54/10 55/14adjourned [2] 53/19 59/22adjudicate [1] 41/6adjudicating [1] 41/4adjudication [3] 20/2 50/9 51/23administer [1] 35/14admittedly [1] 21/8adopt [1] 28/9adopted [1] 21/3adopts [1] 26/21

advise [1] 57/1affirmation [1] 32/12affirmative [5] 31/10 31/11 31/20 32/238/15after [6] 5/3 14/25 32/11 49/16 50/256/14again [7] 4/19 14/13 36/1 44/13 45/754/12 54/18against [5] 6/9 10/13 26/20 28/21 31/18age [7] 33/10 34/5 34/6 34/8 34/1034/14 34/23aggrieved [4] 11/10 16/10 37/21 37/22

ago [2] 18/21 42/14agree [10] 9/19 23/12 23/12 28/1237/20 50/7 52/2 56/1 56/20 57/5agreed [3] 46/1 46/15 46/21agreement [2] 49/25 49/25agrees [1] 49/18ahead [5] 8/3 15/14 41/11 48/12 52/24aided [1] 2/14air [1] 23/2al [4] 1/4 1/6 4/6 4/6alienate [1] 41/22all [39] 5/5 9/19 11/9 12/18 15/14 18/519/2 21/23 22/6 22/6 23/3 23/25 25/1427/1 27/11 27/11 30/17 34/17 35/9

36/17 38/18 38/20 39/6 39/8 39/1545/25 50/16 52/12 53/7 53/16 53/1753/19 53/20 57/2 57/5 57/9 57/1357/20 57/21allow [9] 12/14 34/13 34/25 37/4 44/144/17 45/9 46/18 51/14allowed [1] 26/24allowing [1] 12/25along [1] 25/7already [6] 15/17 18/20 20/23 42/1743/9 48/7also [16] 4/13 5/6 5/25 6/14 8/23 9/210/6 13/9 13/16 15/16 18/20 24/6 35/839/4 45/8 46/18alternative [1] 8/15although [4] 10/20 29/11 33/19 54/18always [3] 19/10 36/15 36/18am [4] 12/11 17/19 54/23 58/13ambit [1] 13/17amended [5] 57/19 57/23 57/24 58/359/6amendment [25] 13/9 13/17 14/25 25/325/12 28/20 30/3 31/19 33/7 33/8 47/647/17 47/19 48/14 50/9 52/13 52/1853/24 56/3 56/4 56/14 57/18 57/2258/8 58/20amendments [5] 11/18 21/2 25/1027/10 27/19amicus [6] 5/7 17/7 33/13 54/3 54/7

54/13among [2] 30/6 33/11analogous [1] 25/5ancient [1] 38/21animating [1] 29/23another [3] 19/3 47/25 56/15answer [6] 10/21 11/13 34/17 35/340/5 43/21any [25] 5/22 5/22 6/3 8/7 11/17 14/515/11 16/9 17/12 18/8 21/1 21/1121/24 21/25 34/4 35/24 37/8 41/1 43/743/19 45/22 48/20 53/3 53/24 56/16anyone [1] 5/22anything [6] 45/21 50/15 54/9 56/1957/2 58/24anyway [2] 43/22 55/6apologize [2] 5/22 57/10apparently [1] 45/25appeal [2] 7/6 51/1appealable [5] 48/9 48/11 49/24 50/251/8appeals [4] 5/3 28/11 29/8 48/7appearances [3] 1/12 2/1 4/7appellate [1] 40/8applicable [1] 19/13applied [3] 7/13 25/14 55/13applies [6] 11/7 13/24 18/13 18/22

Case 2:13-cv-05090-MLCF-ALC Document 129 Filed 08/05/14 Page 61 of 72

14-31037.2078


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A

applies... [2] 21/21 25/14apply [4] 13/25 14/2 16/24 21/19applying [1] 25/16appreciate [3] 5/6 5/9 6/4appropriate [3] 5/10 5/25 12/3architecture [1] 21/14are [82]area [3] 10/4 30/24 33/5arguably [3] 11/24 17/14 17/15argue [7] 11/21 11/22 13/8 22/1 25/1351/11 51/17argued [7] 46/13 49/11 49/16 49/24

51/1 54/6 54/7arguing [3] 16/8 25/6 58/23argument [34] 1/10 16/5 17/14 22/2424/17 24/18 26/10 27/21 29/17 34/1536/15 36/23 36/25 37/1 37/2 37/2 39/239/4 47/13 47/14 48/2 48/20 49/1150/13 51/20 53/5 55/4 55/7 55/8 55/1256/15 56/17 57/15 59/17arguments [3] 31/17 36/22 54/6Arizona [1] 31/4around [8] 10/19 16/15 18/13 23/1837/8 38/20 38/23 55/12as [57] 5/14 5/14 5/14 7/9 8/1 9/2 9/89/24 10/4 10/9 10/14 12/25 14/1316/20 18/12 19/12 20/11 21/10 21/13

22/14 25/1 25/7 25/19 26/14 26/2128/9 28/10 29/23 31/5 32/11 35/1836/3 37/24 37/24 38/21 39/15 46/947/20 48/23 48/24 49/7 49/13 49/1349/15 52/5 52/8 52/13 52/15 53/1154/11 55/11 55/17 55/20 56/21 57/1457/15 57/15aside [3] 11/14 12/5 13/3ask [6] 9/18 14/8 18/25 27/9 43/1555/8asked [4] 10/22 30/5 40/9 49/1asking [2] 16/3 38/24assert [2] 9/7 9/11asserted [2] 34/4 35/23

assessment [1] 19/21assume [2] 26/18 27/12assuming [3] 12/22 30/16 33/21at [22] 4/13 5/4 5/7 7/20 7/24 9/4 12/1312/15 13/18 17/3 23/16 24/25 26/826/9 27/5 30/17 31/5 35/16 39/1239/24 48/13 58/10attention [2] 5/17 39/18attitude [1] 19/10August [1] 51/2aunt [5] 15/2 16/21 30/8 33/22 42/23aunt-niece [3] 15/2 16/21 30/8author [4] 20/12 29/1 32/10 39/22authority [12] 9/25 23/24 24/21 26/226/7 26/17 27/2 27/4 27/5 30/2 39/9

40/15aware [2] 18/12 21/20awful [1] 55/4

Bback [5] 4/18 27/9 27/15 47/8 57/20bad [3] 27/11 37/1 37/1baiting [1] 21/4Baker [1] 11/3banc [1] 31/21banning [1] 31/20bans [1] 6/19bare [1] 18/15

Barfield [1] 8/19base [1] 42/10based [7] 6/10 6/10 12/3 12/9 24/1135/3 35/3basic [1] 20/8basically [3] 10/12 10/20 27/21basis [15] 7/14 13/25 14/2 16/24 16/2517/1 17/2 17/24 18/4 21/12 22/3 25/1425/19 26/15 56/18Baton [2] 10/23 11/2Baton Rouge [2] 10/23 11/2be [62]Bear [1] 19/2Beauregard [2] 4/17 4/21

because [26] 9/7 9/19 12/3 16/13 17/1017/17 18/18 18/20 22/8 26/14 27/130/1 32/22 34/17 35/9 35/11 36/1837/5 37/16 46/1 48/6 51/18 55/9 57/1458/22 59/1become [2] 5/20 35/12been [28] 4/25 5/10 9/5 9/5 9/6 9/2410/4 10/18 16/15 21/14 32/17 36/236/5 37/25 38/24 40/4 41/5 42/9 43/1446/13 47/2 48/18 48/19 48/24 53/1654/7 54/10 59/20before [11] 1/10 4/23 4/24 11/4 11/1027/10 27/12 37/19 41/6 43/13 58/24begin [2] 4/23 6/6behalf [4] 4/8 4/10 4/12 52/23being [9] 9/24 10/9 11/10 17/3 38/2047/20 54/6 54/13 55/11believe [9] 7/11 11/2 34/7 46/5 47/147/17 49/25 50/6 57/19bench [1] 53/18beneficial [1] 54/12benefit [1] 46/2benefits [1] 37/13best [1] 60/5better [2] 17/11 29/17between [6] 14/3 16/18 22/11 22/1736/2 42/12bias [2] 21/4 27/16big [2] 18/21 18/21

binding [2] 43/19 55/14birth [3] 9/4 9/9 9/10bit [1] 29/15black [1] 39/21Blackmun [1] 33/1Blanchard [1] 4/11blessed [1] 40/4bodies [1] 19/19Bond [2] 29/3 39/25bookend [1] 40/11Bossier [1] 2/7both [13] 5/2 6/2 7/17 11/8 28/4 36/543/22 46/6 46/7 47/4 56/1 56/13 59/21Bowers [1] 32/17Brettner [1] 9/4brief [20] 4/23 5/12 6/23 17/6 17/728/23 31/5 41/12 43/22 45/19 46/154/25 55/4 55/5 55/6 58/13 58/1458/18 58/19 59/4briefed [6] 48/18 48/19 49/11 57/257/12 57/16briefing [15] 47/11 47/12 47/13 48/151/24 52/2 53/1 53/2 56/7 56/12 58/758/12 59/5 59/8 59/9briefly [1] 43/23briefs [11] 5/6 5/7 33/12 35/25 51/2053/25 54/3 54/7 56/14 56/17 59/15

bring [2] 57/7 57/9BROOKE [1] 1/15brother [2] 30/9 30/9brother-brother [1] 30/9brought [2] 17/21 48/14build [1] 39/18building [1] 39/16bulletin [1] 8/19bunch [1] 41/2burden [1] 41/8but [43] 5/21 5/22 8/12 10/2 10/1611/22 14/9 14/21 15/3 15/11 15/1717/2 18/24 19/5 20/15 21/10 23/1724/7 28/23 30/23 32/6 32/17 34/3

34/20 35/14 35/18 37/22 39/3 39/1539/20 39/24 42/21 43/7 43/21 47/1149/6 49/19 51/17 54/15 54/16 55/556/18 58/2

Cc/w [1] 1/5cabined [1] 35/16CALDWELL [2] 1/6 4/6California [1] 17/8call [2] 4/4 58/21called [1] 28/17came [2] 10/24 27/12Camp [1] 1/20can [20] 9/11 11/21 11/22 21/2 22/1

23/25 27/7 30/6 30/21 31/6 37/6 38/138/13 44/13 48/13 51/10 53/8 56/1756/24 59/9can't [5] 17/12 23/22 25/5 26/22 40/12cannot [4] 14/14 26/19 37/8 39/20capital [1] 32/24caption [1] 59/4care [1] 38/12careful [2] 25/17 35/10carefully [3] 34/3 34/18 35/19Carondelet [1] 1/17carry [1] 27/22carving [1] 8/25case [52] 4/4 5/14 7/3 7/5 7/9 8/6

10/23 10/23 11/2 11/10 11/21 12/1413/4 14/10 14/21 17/20 18/3 18/2122/6 22/15 22/16 22/20 22/20 22/2222/24 22/25 23/2 23/7 23/7 24/4 24/2526/22 29/21 30/3 31/3 31/8 31/9 32/2434/4 38/18 39/25 40/2 40/17 41/1544/8 46/2 47/16 50/24 50/25 54/954/10 55/17cases [25] 10/19 10/20 11/15 11/2312/3 12/18 13/16 16/16 20/23 21/222/15 23/17 25/19 27/11 34/2 34/335/9 35/18 40/6 46/4 46/6 46/7 46/946/17 47/22cases: [1] 35/17cases: Glucksberg [1] 35/17

cautious [1] 37/18CCR [3] 2/8 60/2 60/9celebrating [1] 45/9celebration [1] 6/19central [1] 25/11centuries [1] 36/5certain [2] 35/19 35/20certainly [13] 7/13 7/19 15/4 15/8 19/529/14 35/15 38/24 42/25 54/11 54/1654/18 55/11certificate [3] 9/9 9/10 60/1certify [1] 60/4


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D

defines [1] 37/11defining [4] 10/1 10/13 30/7 35/7definition [5] 9/23 26/21 27/7 36/336/19degree [1] 34/23deliberation [1] 28/18demeaned [1] 24/15demeaning [3] 32/7 32/9 35/5democracy [1] 19/9democratic [17] 15/1 20/4 20/9 27/2231/25 32/6 32/8 32/9 32/12 32/1336/13 36/16 37/24 41/4 42/6 44/6 45/4

demonstrations [1] 5/16denying [1] 18/15Department [1] 4/14departure [1] 26/4depends [1] 49/22depth [2] 54/18 55/15described [1] 34/18describing [1] 35/11description [1] 35/23deserve [1] 6/2desire [3] 7/23 18/15 20/24despite [1] 42/13destiny [1] 29/6detailing [1] 24/21determinations [1] 33/5

Devin [1] 9/2dichotomous [1] 8/16did [16] 12/14 24/20 28/9 29/6 40/1744/21 44/22 45/1 45/2 45/3 45/4 45/1245/14 45/15 50/19 54/13didn't [5] 4/18 9/13 21/18 45/11 57/10die [2] 35/17 35/17died [1] 15/21difference [2] 15/7 16/18different [14] 10/16 28/13 28/14 30/1830/19 30/21 30/23 31/1 31/6 33/1934/9 40/18 52/16 55/23differential [1] 8/22differentiate [3] 22/11 22/17 22/19

differently [2] 23/1 40/17differing [3] 30/6 38/4 38/4dignity [1] 11/12dimensions [1] 39/19direct [2] 11/18 30/23directly [3] 25/18 25/19 43/20disadvantage [1] 20/1disagree [8] 14/5 23/18 23/20 29/2038/9 38/9 50/4 50/5disagreement [1] 38/11disagrees [1] 7/14discarded [1] 29/21disclaim [1] 8/20disclosed [1] 18/20disclosure [1] 55/3

discrete [2] 44/2 44/18discriminate [3] 6/9 10/13 26/20discriminated [1] 26/15discriminating [1] 28/20discrimination [8] 11/20 17/1 25/2 25/926/16 27/13 31/16 31/20discriminatory [1] 8/17dismiss [4] 47/19 49/6 49/7 58/6dismissed [2] 40/7 49/4disprove [1] 18/5dispute [3] 8/8 16/10 33/20dissent [6] 8/1 25/20 29/18 32/17 32/25

36/7dissenting [1] 38/6dissents [1] 22/9distinct [3] 49/17 49/17 49/19distinguish [1] 31/13distinguishable [1] 55/11district [11] 1/1 1/2 1/11 6/18 16/1722/7 22/16 23/17 37/7 60/3 60/3do [52] 5/15 6/7 10/15 11/17 13/1916/6 17/19 19/19 19/23 21/16 26/2226/25 30/7 31/12 31/14 32/9 32/1533/16 34/19 35/1 36/22 37/19 37/2037/25 39/11 39/21 40/14 41/2 43/645/1 45/2 45/4 45/23 46/15 47/11

47/13 47/13 47/14 47/14 50/10 51/2053/1 53/1 54/3 55/7 55/25 56/2 57/457/5 57/7 59/3 59/15Docket [1] 1/4document [1] 9/11does [12] 16/11 18/12 21/8 23/1028/19 30/12 35/15 38/10 38/11 45/950/21 51/13doesn't [4] 13/12 30/16 34/13 56/22doing [5] 10/16 26/25 38/16 39/6 39/16DOMA [5] 24/16 26/3 26/5 26/12 28/23domestic [4] 7/22 10/3 27/4 37/15don't [44] 8/7 8/10 11/20 11/22 14/516/9 17/2 18/1 19/3 19/24 20/15 21/121/11 21/25 23/22 25/25 28/22 29/1132/11 34/24 37/5 39/10 41/1 44/745/21 46/1 47/10 47/11 47/21 49/250/4 50/5 50/14 51/16 51/21 55/2256/18 57/4 57/5 57/17 58/4 59/1659/16 59/17done [1] 44/23doubt [13] 5/2 16/9 16/10 21/11 21/2522/10 22/12 24/2 24/4 27/17 27/1735/24 36/2down [7] 22/10 31/22 41/14 41/1841/23 53/12 55/22Doyle [4] 2/8 60/2 60/9 60/9Drive [1] 2/6driven [1] 7/22

dropped [1] 7/6due [14] 6/15 7/20 7/25 12/23 14/116/5 24/12 34/20 35/9 35/13 36/1738/20 46/6 53/25Duncan [8] 2/2 2/3 4/12 13/22 18/2223/13 45/19 50/4durable [1] 31/25dynamics [4] 37/3 43/25 44/15 44/16

Eeach [7] 6/6 15/5 44/3 44/4 44/1944/20 46/8early [1] 39/13EASTERN [2] 1/2 60/3echo [1] 22/10

education [8] 16/22 17/5 17/10 17/1230/6 30/25 42/21 42/21effect [2] 19/6 26/18Eighth [1] 33/7either [3] 5/16 9/20 48/1Eleanor [1] 45/15element [1] 12/20eloquent [1] 29/2eloquently [2] 39/23 39/24else [1] 21/16embraced [1] 29/22emotional [1] 12/9

emotions [1] 30/24emphasis [1] 5/11emphasize [1] 8/13empowered [1] 34/9en [1] 31/21en banc [1] 31/21end [3] 7/20 7/24 31/16ended [1] 24/13enduring [1] 20/3enjoy [1] 12/8enlightened [1] 45/18enlightening [1] 53/16enough [2] 39/18 59/19enter [4] 4/7 35/2 35/6 56/2

entirety [1] 28/12entitled [2] 59/2 60/6entitlement [1] 46/25equal [11] 6/13 7/19 7/24 16/4 17/2124/12 24/18 31/22 46/6 46/10 53/25equality [10] 10/7 18/11 23/12 27/1527/25 28/7 28/15 36/11 38/10 47/16equation [1] 12/21especially [1] 53/13ESQ [9] 1/14 1/15 1/15 1/16 1/16 1/191/22 2/3 2/6essential [5] 23/24 24/21 27/2 36/339/9essentially [4] 10/22 19/22 22/8 50/24established [1] 55/20Establishment [1] 30/16estate [1] 23/7et [4] 1/4 1/6 4/6 4/6et al [2] 4/6 4/6even [11] 7/14 12/5 13/24 14/2 17/1325/6 31/7 33/6 49/11 55/17 56/22eventually [1] 40/3ever [1] 6/25ever-changing [1] 6/25every [4] 5/12 5/12 16/16 16/16everybody [3] 18/20 29/15 43/17everyone [4] 6/4 46/3 53/17 59/1everything [1] 58/23evolving [11] 10/6 18/10 19/20 23/11

27/14 27/24 28/6 32/23 33/6 36/1144/4exactly [2] 27/23 29/9example [6] 16/20 27/8 34/5 41/2345/10 55/21examples [3] 16/13 18/9 30/8except [3] 22/15 22/16 42/16exception [1] 8/25exclusive [1] 10/4executive [1] 4/14exercise [2] 20/25 30/17exercising [1] 41/24existence [1] 18/16expected [1] 5/23experience [1] 53/15explain [2] 23/22 39/20explicit [5] 11/21 11/23 11/23 11/2411/24expression [2] 13/13 59/2expressly [2] 8/23 9/20extend [3] 12/17 14/11 23/8extends [1] 13/9extraordinarily [1] 31/10extremely [1] 32/3

F

face [1] 5/25


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F

fact [7] 8/25 11/9 21/20 28/10 38/2242/13 43/22facts [4] 8/5 8/7 21/13 22/19factual [1] 10/17failure [1] 49/4fair [7] 5/17 7/16 15/13 33/18 39/447/22 47/23fairly [1] 5/14faith [10] 20/8 26/11 47/4 48/23 49/456/10 57/7 57/11 58/1 58/8familiar [2] 7/2 16/16far [4] 21/24 31/11 45/3 57/15

father [8] 14/17 14/17 15/2 15/9 16/2030/9 33/23 33/23father-daughter [3] 15/2 15/9 16/20father-son [1] 30/9fault [1] 45/24favor [4] 13/24 47/18 50/8 51/15FCRR [3] 2/8 60/2 60/9federal [21] 5/1 5/13 6/18 8/24 10/1210/15 22/7 23/17 24/15 26/19 26/2527/4 27/7 28/19 30/2 37/3 40/12 43/2544/17 53/15 55/19federalism [14] 7/19 7/21 15/17 19/729/3 29/4 29/18 29/19 29/21 29/2329/25 36/24 39/12 39/19feel [4] 16/10 22/3 22/4 50/15

feeling [1] 55/3feels [1] 54/11Feenstra [2] 41/9 41/16FELDMAN [1] 1/10felt [1] 19/14female [1] 12/11Ferguson [1] 27/11few [1] 5/1FFC [1] 58/19Fifteenth [1] 27/19Fifth [2] 28/20 56/22Fifth Circuit [1] 56/22figure [1] 35/19file [3] 53/24 54/25 55/6

filed [2] 17/6 25/20filing [3] 58/10 58/13 58/15Finally [2] 5/11 19/25financial [1] 18/6find [5] 39/6 39/8 39/10 39/11 39/20finding [2] 16/7 51/18fine [1] 5/25finished [2] 56/11 56/11firm [1] 18/19first [30] 8/4 14/16 19/9 19/12 30/930/14 33/24 34/17 34/24 34/25 40/2545/9 45/11 45/12 45/15 47/6 47/1747/19 48/14 49/1 50/1 50/9 52/1352/18 53/24 56/3 56/4 56/14 58/858/20

First Amendment [2] 47/6 56/14first-cousin [3] 14/16 30/9 45/9Five [1] 29/22flesh [1] 54/12flow [1] 15/11focus [1] 16/5follow [1] 19/3following [3] 9/22 17/14 53/22follows [1] 46/10force [3] 25/10 43/19 50/14foregoing [1] 60/4foreseeable [1] 42/8

forget [3] 24/7 27/10 38/2form [1] 38/13formation [6] 36/10 37/4 37/5 37/1944/1 44/17Forum [1] 47/16forward [9] 8/6 13/24 15/16 18/3 18/439/15 48/7 51/23 53/9found [5] 12/7 19/10 21/24 22/20 57/17Fourteenth [6] 13/9 13/17 25/3 25/1227/18 33/8Franklin [1] 45/12frankly [5] 10/19 29/17 43/20 47/2354/5free [2] 30/17 52/13

freestanding [4] 24/12 24/13 24/1424/17fringes [1] 27/5full [11] 26/11 47/4 48/23 49/3 55/356/10 57/7 57/11 58/1 58/8 59/2fully [1] 21/20function [1] 19/22fund [1] 30/19fundamental [15] 6/15 12/8 12/1712/19 14/13 20/25 35/2 36/6 38/1141/4 41/7 41/24 42/19 42/21 45/6fundamentally [1] 38/10funding [3] 30/15 30/16 30/23funds [3] 15/19 15/20 30/5Furman [1] 32/25further [3] 45/21 45/22 59/5future [1] 42/8

GGarth [2] 4/17 4/21gave [3] 9/4 30/8 40/21gay [2] 8/15 24/15gays [6] 13/2 13/17 18/15 22/20 42/542/12gender [3] 6/11 17/2 35/22general [1] 9/16generated [1] 5/1genuine [3] 33/14 37/5 37/18George [1] 9/3

Georgia [1] 32/25get [7] 16/17 33/12 33/15 42/24 43/1643/24 45/11gets [3] 15/23 17/11 23/10getting [1] 8/21give [4] 20/17 43/22 45/19 46/1gives [1] 37/10giving [2] 16/13 39/18glad [1] 12/1Glucksberg [1] 35/17go [9] 8/3 15/14 27/9 29/12 31/1 39/1541/11 52/24 57/20goes [3] 36/18 40/2

2:13-cv-05090 #129 - transcript june 25 2014

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