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T-Tail advantage &

disadvantage ?!

Hi,

Could you explain methe good & bad sides ofa T-Tail airplane like theBAe 14 ! and also youropinion about that"onfig#

$t %ould really "larifysome dis"ussion ########

Than

'(y

9th February 2004, 04:02 #2 (permalink )

$ntruder

)oin *ate+ ay .../o"ation+ 0A2osts+ 1,3.3

2ro+ Horiontal stab is in 5"lean5 airflo% in 6irtually all flightregimes 7deep stall ex"epted, but un"ommon in air "arriers8#

Con+ 9erti"al stab stru"ture must be stronger to "arry the loads#


:-A/A;

bat fastard )oin *ate+ Apr ..</o"ation+ Ba"k home in Alba2osts+ 1s not likley to be hit and damaged by anythingthro%n up by the tyres, espe"ially on a rough strip or gra6el strip#$ fly a T tail and one thing $ find 6ery annoying is the fa"t $ "an>tsee the top of the ele6ators on the %alk around# Also T tails don>tperform ?uite as %ell in stalls, infa"t if the stall is deep enoughthere is a risk you %on>t ha6e enough ele6ator authority tore"o6er#


safetypee

)oin *ate+ *e" ../o"ation+ 0@2osts+ <

A T Tail in"reases the ele6ator effe"ti6eness by gi6ing a largereffe"ti6e span# High ele6ator effe"ti6eness is re?uired for high lift%ings, %hi"h are often mounted abo6e the fuselage, thus the tailhas to be out of the do%n %ash# The end plate effe"t also gi6esmore rudder effe"ti6eness for a shorter tail arm# i#e# DC-14E1F,C13, *ash EG, and 14E')#

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The 14 still has the highest Clmax for any "i6il airliner# *eepstalls! or the 14 in theory yes, but the test team tried 6ery hardto find it yet ne6er experien"ed any during de6elopment# The sti"kpush gi6es prote"tion, but during "ertifi"ation it %as also a ?ui"kmethod of determining the expe"ted stall speeds so thatperforman"e testing "ould progress ?ui"kly#


343=CA/

)oin *ate+ Aug ..</o"ation+ kagness on thebea"h2osts+ GG4

:-A/A;,

;ot sure $ agree %ith you on the t-tail and stalls# aybe insomething like an *-G. %here the designers put the %ings"loser to the tail than they should ha6e, but not on something likea 33# $ ha6e also heard %ind up stalls "an be abeeeaaaaatt""hhhh in a t-tail#


:-A/A;

bat fastard )oin *ate+ Apr ..</o"ation+ Ba"k home in Alba2osts+ 16e al%ays been taught lo% %ingsand a T-tail are not a good "ombination in a stall as turbulent airfrom the %ings %ill flo% o6er the ele6ators thus gi6ing them littleauthority#


*anAir1-11

)oin *ate+ ep ..</o"ation+ Amidst the dustand the flies, some%here inIestern Australia2osts+ G

=n the subJe"t of T-tail stalls# A stall situation in a T tail is neithermore nor less "riti"al than that of any other "onfiguration,pro6iding it is re"ognised at the onset and re"o6ery is effe"tedpromptly and "orre"tly# The real problem o""urs %hen the stall isallo%ed to de6elop into a deep stall, from %hi"h many air"raftha6e been lost#T%o notable examples being a BA Trident o6er taines 0@ in the.>s %here the 2 retra"ted the leading edge >droop> de6i"es toosoon leading to aerodynami" deep stall at a fairly lo% altitude,

and a ;orth%est 33 on a ferry flight, %here the young "re% %eremislead into the stall after pitot tubes be"ame i"ed andsubse?uently blo"ked, the "re% be"ame a%are of high airspeed inthe "limb, %hi"h they attributed to ha6ing a light air"raft# Theypulled her ba"k and let her "limb, e6en mistaking the onset of thestall buffet as a"h buffet# As in the first in"iden"e, the enteredthe deep stall and %ere unable to effe"t re"o6ery#The 6ast maJority of my experien"e has been %ith T tails, 1-11>s%hi"h %ere a pleasure to fly, as %as the 33# THere ha6e been

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many things put in print about tyhe pros and "ons of theaerodynami"s of the design, $f $ don>t forget, i %ill "ome ba"k tothis thread and add some links later on#

'egards


/oose ri6ets 2sy"hophysiologi"al entity )oin *ate+ )un ..1/o"ation+ Hmm $ broil a%innableAge+ 3.2osts+ ,s 1-11 "omes to mind#

*anAir 1-11, %ere u there %hen CC and C2 turned up! $ re"allthat all the training %as done on the real aE"###the stall through tothe push# ;ot sure that i %ould %ant to do that no%#


*anAir1-11

)oin *ate+ ep ..</o"ation+ Amidst the dustand the flies, some%here inIestern Australia2osts+ G

/oose ri6ets,

That doesn>t half bring ba"k some memoriesK#Ias 2; on the famous phantom engine fire flight out ofan"hester on AC2 7BAC 1-11 4.1A@ - buildL G3 for those"onfused by this8 , she "ertainly earned her 5smoke-bomb5handleK $ - 'e the stall training, ne6er had the pleasure at thattime, and i>m fairly sure that %as a good thingK#As $ re"all Bryn Iayt did something similar!


9olume

)oin *ate+ *e" ..1/o"ation+ %hat 0## "allsMold NuropeM2osts+

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problem, he apparently forgot about his drum of kero onthe tray "omplete %ith pump sti"king out of the top end apro"eeded to remo6e the stbd flap assy and pun"ture Justfor%ard of the mountsK Think he did most of the damagere6ersing attempting to extri"ate himself#


Big:reen2leasurea"hine )oin *ate+ )ul .../o"ation+ 1.. Iest Addison2osts+ 3

*an Air makes an important point, %hen the tail isunaffe"ted by the do%n %ash from the %ing, natural stall%arning doesn>t exist# Hen"e the sti"k shakersEpushers onair"raft of these "onfigurations, %hi"h %orks %ell as the tail%on>t be in the turbulent air at the stall %arning speed#

A more problemati" "hara"teristi" is the tenden"y for t-tails%ith aft mounted engines to pit"h up on stalling, makingthings %orse if the tail has already be"ome ineffe"ti6e# i

imagine the abs"en"e of this ?uality on the 14E')s is todo %ith their engine installation position#

'egards, B:2#


Tinstaafl

)oin *ate+ *e" 1G/o"ation+ Ns"apee from0ltima Thule2osts+ ,6e often "onsidered %hat one "ould do to try to exit a deep stall#$ think there>s t%o or :i6en enough height $ re"kon $>d try+

1# ti"k out all the lo% speed de6i"es

# Ha6e e6eryone do%n the ba"k see ho% "lose to the "o"kpitthey "an get O gear do%n to try to lo%er the drag line#

s not mu"h po%erindu"ed pit"hing#

4# Try to roll using aileron & spoilers far enough to allo% gra6ity &airflo% to "ause a ya% to%ards the ground ie into the airflo%#

F# Also try to roll, but using asymmetri" po%er & rudder# 'isk ofspinning but at least there>s the "han"e of an unstable bit %hile

transitioning#

*is"ussion! Alternate suggestions!


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*anAir1-11

)oin *ate+ ep ..</o"ation+ Amidst the dustand the flies, some%here inIestern Australia

2osts+ G

Best remedy for a deep stall!

*on>t let it get there in the first pla"e#


ield $n ight

)oin *ate+ ay ../o"ation+ ale2osts+ 4F

Dou "ould also fit retro ro"kets near the "o"kpit fa"ing up%ards#

a la The pa"e shuttle#

$#


ft

)oin *ate+ ="t .../o"ation+ ;# Nurope2osts+

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Bre.1

elf /oathing roggy )oin *ate+ )un ../o"ation+ else%hereAge+ 42osts+ F43

lightly =ET butstill about flying

ma"hines

or gliders it ismore than afashion + sin"e the2hQnix 71F8,.R of plasti"gliders ha6e beendesigned %ith T-tails, notableex"eptions beingthe td-/ibelleand pure aerobati"gliders 7forstru"tural reasonsas mentionned byft8#

The determiningpros are indeedthe intera"tion%ith "rops and therudder authority inspins# :liders areprobably the most

stall & spin proneairplanes7aerobati"sex"epted8 aspeople tend to flyas slo% aspossible 7min sinkor e6en less8%hen "irling inthermals#

;e6er heard ofdeep stalls for

gliders# 7or seenanything in flightmanuals8# $ guessthe layout is notfa6ourable7for%ard positionof %ings8

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Eyelets on upper wing of Airbus

Iell, at least $ think it %as an airbus#

$ %as on a flight the other day %ith our CN=, %ho lo6es a6iation# $ "ould

ans%er most of his ?uestions, but got stu"k %hen he pointed out theyello% painted eyelets on the upper %ing# *idn>t look ?uite big enoughto be hoisting points#

Any%ay, $ need to "orre"t my other%ised unblemished per"ei6eda6iation-kno%ledge %ith an ans%er, sad as it may be#

15th December 2002, 23:45 #2 (permalink )

%oderi"k

)oin *ate+ Apr ../o"ation+ $=G

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20:55

Airbus#*e

)oin *ate+ ="t ../o"ation+ Hamburg

2osts+ s "ontinued

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use#

26th June 2003, 05:32 #9 (permalink )

=2 short flights long nights

)oin *ate+ Aug 12osts+ 33

;o slides on a 3< or A

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purpose - to impro6e lo% speed stall "hara"teristi"s- theyphysi"ally impro6e the strength of the na"elle 6ortex so that it %illnot burst as it passes through the leading edge pressure gradient- these are 6ortex shed amplifiers - other%ise the"hara"teristi"ally %eek 6ortex %ould 5burst5 as it passes thoughthe pressure differential %hen going from underside to topside ofthe %ing# A bursting 6ortex %ill hose the flo% o6er the top side ofthe inboard %ing "ausing it to %ant to stall before the outside%ing# Be"ause of the fa"t that modern Jets use a s%ept %ing - thisstalling unloads the inboard %ing first - %hile the outbord reagionis still flying# This "an "ause a stall pit"h do%n moment - that %illlimit your slo%est approa"h speed - $N airplane %ill keep pit"hingo6er follo%ing stall & brealk - not allo%ing you to "ontinue slo%ingdo%n %ith A=A# $f you make the damn thing too effe"ti6e 7 $N thesie of the "hine 8 you %ill make the inboard %ing hang on toolong- $N ;=T %ant to stall at all - making the air"raft di6ergent inpit"h - $N Airplane %ants to stay pit"hed up regardless of %hat thepilot %ants - oooooo - as t Augistine said - pruden"e is in the

middle - $N there is a s%eet spot in bet%een too small & too/arge# A$'B0 "opied this use from Boeing - %ho did it on the3

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6th Juy 2003, 01:08 #15 (permalink )

usedflyboeing

)oin *ate+ )un ..

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oE%ingarea,ha6enoti"edthat theropes arenot on alloperatersair"raft#$>ll follo%up later#And yesthe B36e ne6er used a Tra"k up oriented H$#$>m told it "an be disorientating if you are not used to it#Ihen you turn to a heading in Heading mode, %ill you ha6e the sele"ted headingat 1 o>"lo"k!

$ don>t understand

24th !ay 2003, 03:15#2

(permalink )

;otso antasti"

)oin *ate+ Aug .../o"ation+ 0@2osts+ 1,G14

Des, the"ompassis bangon yourheading%ith

"urrentheadingbang on1o>"lo"k#That>sthe %aynature

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intendeditK ;e6erflo%ntra"k up#

24th !ay 2003, 03:52 #3 (permalink )

/N

)oin *ate+ ay ..</o"ation+ The 'omanNmpire2osts+ G.1

$ agree, that>s %hy $>m asking###Che"k this page +http+EE%%%#b3

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@ingofthe'oad

)oin *ate+ )ul ../o"ation+ here & there2osts+ G

bmi7baby8 3s are indeed >tra"k up>, but their Airbus fleet is all>hdg up>#

Ihen "on6erting from one to the other, nobody e6en thinks tomention it - you Just set the hdg# re?>d# & read the trk#, or set thetrk# and the hdg# is %hat it is, depending on the %ind#

u"h easier on the >bus using the >flight path 6e"tor>, then you"an fly any trk#you %ish, and forget about the drift#,mu"h moreuseful, 6#"le6er#

'oger iller#

25th !ay 2003, 12:04 #8 (permalink )

WA9$=;

2osts+ nEa

5$ shall ha6e a play tonight on the 343-4.. and see if it is possible

to ha6e it that %ay but $>m fairly "ertain it "an>t e6en be done 7notthat you %ould %ant to- you ha6e a 6ery effe"ti6e %hite T'@ line8#5

There is no pilot sele"tion for this feature# $t is, ho%e6er,sele"table through a "ombination of %iring 7pin programming8 andsoft%are "hanges on air"raft like the 343-4..# ome simulators%hi"h are used by a number of airlines may allo% this sele"tion%ith a push of a button 7not found in a normal air"raft8#

=ur 343-4.. and 33 fleet has 5T'AC@ 025 for %hate6er reason7perhaps be"ause %e are generally a long haul airline %here mostof the time %e are follo%ing an /;A9 tra"k8# ost airlines, $belie6e ha6e a H*: 02 display# @/, $ seem to remember,s%it"hed from one to the other#

'egards#W#

25th !ay 2003, 13:25 #9 (permalink )

JohnVtullamarine oderator

)oin *ate+ Apr ..1/o"ation+ 6arious pla"es #####2osts+

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26th !ay 2003, 01:59 #10 (permalink )

$ntruder


=n our 344s the ;a6 *isplay is Tra"k 0p, but the "ompass "ard onthe 2rimary light *isplay is Heading 0p# ;either are sele"table in

the "o"kpit 7only TrueEagneti" is sele"table8#

As %ith 6irtually all airborne systems that ha6e a "ouple primaryoptions, there are good and bad points about either one#

Ihen 5follo%ing the magenta line5 %ith an , Tra"k 0p makesall kinds of sense, be"ause you "an referen"e the %ind-"orre"tedheading at a glan"e 7it>s at the topK8# ;o mental gymnasti"s arere?uired to manually fly a "ompli"ated *eparture 2ro"edure7$*8, e6en %ithout a light *ire"tor#

=T=H, the Heading 0p display is a good ?ui"k referen"e in high"ross%inds to get a mental pi"ture of your drift, and subse?uently

align your eyeballs to find traffi" or the approa"h lights#

27th !ay 2003, 15:10 #11 (permalink )

plane"rai

)oin *ate+ ="t 1/o"ation+ $n the oil %ealthof sand dunes2osts+ 33

$n our fleet of As, only one has tra"k up# This you "annotsele"t and "omes %ith the soft%are# =thers are all Hdg up#0nusual to ha6e one bla"k sheep in the fleet %hen they all "omefrom the fa"tory#Tra"k up+-green line in t%el6e o> "lo"k position on ;* %ith noseoff "entre due to drift# 7if drfit8Hdg up+ Heading in t%el6e o> "lo"k %ith green line running off

"entre due to drift#7if drift8

30th !ay 2003, 08:54 #12 (permalink )

Barbers 2ole

)oin *ate+ )ul .../o"ation+ ;e% Xealand2osts+ 1

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The real one is on the 333, %here you "an sele"t to "ommand a"ertain tra"k %ith the heading knob , %hi"h then be"omes a truetrack knob #Am $ %rong!

31"t !ay 2003, 11:32 #14 (permalink )

Bundi :ap

)oin *ate+ *e" ../o"ation+ Australia2osts+

:enerally Boeing air"raft ha6e na6 displays %ith tra"k up andAirbus air"raft ha6e ;*s %ith heading up# $ ha6e flo%n both -on"e you get used to the different display methods they bothseem to %ork ok#

31"t !ay 2003, 13:42 #15 (permalink )

;otso antasti"

)oin *ate+ Aug .../o"ation+ 0@2osts+ 1,G14

eems to me all the

ad6antages stated for >Tra"k-up> are on a >Hdg-up> displaytoo# =n the 343-4.. fit, %ith>Hdg-up>, you ha6e a %hitetra"k line %hi"h %ill usually beoffset to the left or right7depending on drift8 of yourHdg-up line# Therefore to flyapproa"hes or go dire"tany%here, Just put the %hiteline on the final approa"h lineor pla"e it on your dire"t-to

position, and Bob>s your un"le#Compasses are meant to sho%%here you are fa"ing# Anynauti"al type %ill kno% that,and try and allo% for drift7tide8 mentally# >T%as ho% it%as meant to be# Tra"k-up is amite too "le6er for itself- forinstan"e, %hen you stoptaxiing, %hat does the"ompass display do! *oes its%ing out of "ontrol be"auseessentially, by definition, you

ha6e no tra"k and it is nottelling you anything then, ordoes it default to somethingsensible-ie# Hdg-up! Breakingout of "loud near airfields%ith similar run%ays, Hdg-up%ill immediately tell you %hi"his the %rong one-Tra"k-up"ould a"tually "onfuse you as

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the 'un%ay nomination maynot mat"h the %ay the"ompass says you areHeading#

31"t !ay 2003, 14:05 #16 (permalink )

d6t

)oin *ate+ Apr ../o"ation+ /ands Nnd2osts+ FF

Tra"k up is an ex"ellentsituation a%areness tool# $fyou>re pro"eeding dire"t,5s"re% the heading bug5,simply roll out %ith your Tra"k/ine o6er you fix point# Thedrift is automati"ally killed#Can it get any easier!K

Hell, roll out on final and put

your tra"k line through therun%ay symbol and you>redone %ith %ind adJustmentsfor a non-pre"ision approa"h#Can it get any easier!K $nhea6y x-%inds, in the %eather,%ith your bug on run%ayheading you "an train yourself to %here to look for therun%ay %hen you pop out ofthe "louds# ie Dour eyes needto go in the same dire"tionyou need to go to pla"e theheading bug o6er the Tra"k/ine# This is %hy, $ belie6e,Boeing has the heading bug Jump to run%ay heading at/=C Capture# Their a"tuallyhelping pilots out, bydesigning systems that thinklike like pilots# Can it get anyeasier!K

Also %hen manue6ering forthunderstorms, simply

displa"e your Tra"k /inerelati6e to the storm# $t>s asnap# The Tra"k /ine hasrange gates or ti"k marks thatmake displa"ement a no-brainer# Dou "an use yourfingers as di6iders, or JustIA: it# Can it get anyeasier!K $t>s a bit funny to

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%at"hing former Airbus guysdogging T-storms %ith theheading bug# They>re not"lued into the fa"t that theirTra"k /ine is going dire"tlythrough that big 'ed Cell upahead# /ook out the %indo%and tell me %hat>s %rong %iththis pi"ture#

The Trap in the "A# on I$S

ome operators re?uire both pilots to stay on A2 mode 7B3s fine# ;o% try this in the simulator+ et upthe $/ as abo6e but on A2 mode# Nnsure $C#

;ear the outer marker, deliberately turn the air"raft say 1. degrees offtra"k 7to simulate in"ompetent handling8 and note that 6ery ?ui"kly theexpanded mode needle on the A*$ goes to full defle"tion and off s"ale#tay on glide slope %hile doing this#

Beyond full s"ale A*$ expanded lo"aliser you no% ha6e no idea ho% far youreally are off the "entre line# =nly H$ mode %ill sho% you that# /ooking at

the A2 mode %ill not tell you ho% many dots you are off "entre#After se6eral se"onds of flying this offset heading from the $/ "entre line,freee the simulator and s%it"h from A2 to H$ mode# By no% after say. se"onds you %ill see that the air"raft is beyond full s"ale normallo"aliser and heading for potential disaster depending on terrain#

;o% s%it"h the simulator to CA9=@ and note the run%ay %ay off to the leftor right although you are still on :#Ihat is my point, you are entitled to ask# $t is this#

$f you inad6ertently de6iate from the $/ "entre line for %hate6er reason7drift or ina""urate flying8 then on"e the expanded lo"aliser rea"hes fulls"ale for Just a fe% pre"ious se"onds you lose a%areness of Just ho% faryou ha6e de6iated unless you ?ui"kly s%it"h to H$ mode and "he"k thenumber of dots de6iation#

Dou "an go "ompletely off the H$ lo"aliser s"ale -yet the expandedlo"aliser on the A*$ %ill still stay expanded and all you kno% is that youare "urrently more than Just one dot off "entre# $n other %ords theexpanded lo"aliser needle on the A*$ is no% useless#

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The A2 mode "ertainly may aid situational a%areness in terms ofpositions of the run%ay "entre line and of other information su"h as missedapproa"h tra"k, but there is no %ay you "an Judge the number of dots offtra"k merely by s"anning the A2#

And it is the number of dots off tra"k that di"tate %hether or not the

de6iation is serious enough for an immediate go-around# And only the H$mode %ill gi6e you that information# or this reason $ belie6e that for an$/ the H$ mode is safer in the long run than A2# Ha6ing said that $ ama%are that Boeing re"ommend A2 mode for an $/#

And hands up all those %ho ha6e ne6er de6iated badly off the $/ "entreline on an $/!

2nd June 2003, 02:50 #2 (permalink )

book%orm

)oin *ate+ Aug .../o"ation+ 0@2osts+ ,4

Hudson

or those of us unfamiliar %iththe air"raft or display setup,"ould you indi"ate+

18 lateral distan"e or angulardispla"ement indi"ated by *on the A*$

8 lateral distan"e or angulardispla"ement indi"ated by *on the H$, and by one dot onthe H$

t spe"ify %hatmode to be in for $/ approa"hes, and after thinking about yourpost, it may not be a bad idea to remain in ra% data#

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stillalbatross

)oin *ate+ ay ..s "ompany sop "alls for the opposite as aerobat>s one#


Hudson

2osts+ nEa

Book%orm# ;ot ?uite sure %hat you mean by the * but assumeit is the lo"aliser and glide slope info on the A*$ and H$!;ormal /=C de6iation is one degree per dot# Ihen 9='E/=Cengaged 7not ne"essarily on auto pilot either8 the A*$ s"ale

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automati"ally expands to indi"ate half a degree de6iation per dot#$t remains expanded until after landing roll-out or on a go-around%ith 'A greater than ..ft#

There is no distan"e lateral de6iation indi"ation on either theexpanded A*$ s"ale or H$ although you "ould %ork it out bymental arithmati" if you kne% the exa"t distan"e from thelo"aliser aerials# orget that for a Joke# But as an example if youare F#4G miles from the threshold then one dot on the normals"ale on the H$ means you are 334 feet off "entre line#

$f you fly the $/ %ithout the flight dire"tor then the A*$ lo"alisers"ale is the same as the H$ - that is no expansion# $n that "ase if you are on A2 mode for situational a%areness it doesn>t reallymatter be"ause the A*$ lo"aliser gi6es you all the informationne"essary to tell you exa"tly ho% many dots you are off the"entre line#

2ut another %ay - if you allo% the air"raft to stray off the"entreline full s"ale on normal H$ mode then it is an immediatego-around situation# But if you are on A2 mode and relying onthe expanded s"ale on the A*$ to keep you %ithin limits %hen onflight dire"tor, then you are %histling into the %ind

=f "ourse a brilliant 2; %ould ?ui"kly ad6ise the 2 that he hadde6iated off s"ale on the expanded A*$ %hen on flight dire"tor"oupled to $/# But the moment that the 2 allo%s the air"raft todrift off beyond full s"ale on the expanded lo"aliser you arerapidly going into no-man>s land espe"ially if you are maintainingthe glide slope#

$n the simulator %e %ere unpleasantly surprised ho% ?ui"kly theexpanded lo"aliser mo6ed to off limits %hile at the same time %e%ere unable to dete"t a signifi"ant lateral displa"ement %hilestaring at the A2 mode e6en on the 1. mile s"ale#

At no stage did the expanded s"ale automati"ally re6ert to normals"ale e6en though %e had rea"hed beyond full s"ale displa"ementon the H$ normal s"ale# $ belie6e a safer design philosophy%ould be to ha6e automati" re6ersion from expanded s"ale on theA*$ to normal four dots if a signifi"ant lateral de6iation o""urred#

3rd June 2003, 00:04 #8 (permalink )

book%orm

)oin *ate+ Aug .../o"ation+ 0@2osts+ ,4

Thanks for the extra info Hudson and sorry to ha6e "onfused+ *is Full Scale Deflection, but you ga6e the details $ %as looking forany%ay#

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#ouse

Contro6ersial, moi!

)oin *ate+ ="t .../o"ation+ 0@2osts+ 1,

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this point the H$ %ill indi"ate less than half s"ale off "entre line%hi"h is no "ause for a :A yet#

By the %ay the A2 is on 1. mile s"ale#


d6t

)oin *ate+ Apr ../o"ation+ /ands Nnd2osts+ FF

$ 6ote for A2 and ra% data on the A*$#

$f you line up on final and your ra% data %ill "onfirmEdeny the6alidity of your A2 display# $f your A2 is good then you ha6emu"h more situation a%areness# N6er had your $/ re"ie6er failon you %ith no flags! $t happens# $ had it on"e# N6er had a false"apture, or a false : lo"k on! Ho% "an you tell if you don>t ha6eA2 mode up! Ha6ing the A2 mode up %ill sa6e your situationala%areness and help you make better de"isions#


/N


ap display "annot be an offi"ial means to 6erify your /=C and:lide lope#Dou must 6erify the /=C %ith an ;*B or 9=' radial, and :lidelope %ith a *N or /= 7or, as a last resort, an ATC radarposition8#=n"e you ha6e done so, $ agree a A2 display is better#There "an>t be an absolute truth, the important thing is to make agood 6alid "he"k#*isplay mode preferen"es depend on ho% your "ompany belie6es

you are gonna tend to make these "he"ks+ if they think you %illbe lulled into a false sense of se"urity by a A2 display, theymight impose you the use of N2 9='E$/#$ %ould lea6e the "hoi"e to the "aptain, but ground him if he failsto "he"k his :lide lope by the "orre"t method#


do%n%ind

)oin *ate+ Aug 1G/o"ation+ australia

2osts+ 1

hudson,

$s this a NTA "ourse!, and is the sim 9H-CXA 7ex A;8 or T)xx7"urrent W

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)oin *ate+ )an ../o"ation+ elbourneAustralia2osts+

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ser6i"eable $/kno% the updates its Zlateral[ positionon"e on the

lo"aliser#adly not W0$TNtrue, ggK :ood ol>BA appear to ha6etaken the feature=0T of their>BApe"> 3

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Any other hintsEtips or things i should be a%are of !! Common problems7if any8 %ith 2TA >s!!

any thanks K

29th u$u"t 2003, 13:21 #2 (permalink )

heep :uts #rops are for boats!

)oin *ate+ ="t .../o"ation+ An Asian HubAge+ 42osts+ G3F

$s this a %ind up!

$f not %hat thehell are you doingflying one %ithoutkno%ing some ofthese pointersallready#

1# *eratedensures longerengine and H$life#, "ompared toflat rated#

#Hot or Hungtarts usuallystem from 1 of 4thingsa# Battery lat orlo%b# :20 or BatteryCart flat orin"orre"toperation^ie# "utsout after engagingthe starter_#"# tarter:enerator Justabout shot ie#Brushes %arnbeyond /imitsd# Any "onne"tionin the system

thats lose orar"ing#

;o% you noti"ethat most indeednearly all 2Tsha6e tarterlimitations %hi"hare generally F

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se"onds on 1minute off, Fse"onds on 1minute off, Fse"onds on

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:enerator or:enerator assiststarts# Ihi"h areusually foremergen"ies only#Also alot ofsmaller Types alo%it B. @ing Air andsome NarlyCheyenes $belie6e# B0T:N;N'A//D *=;T*= A C'= :N;=' A$T TA'TN9N'#

4# ;o )ust ensure

you identify and"onfirm theapropriate2ropellor /e6erand mo6e it to theeather positionmanually AA2 ,after getting"ontrol of theAir"raft# omeAir"raft %ill ha6edifferent speedsfor Auto eatherE

nil Auto eatheroperations be%areof this#

F#A'41 dontkno% this %illresear"h it

#Iell the best%ay is to let itsettle o6er night#Iater is easily

suspended in )etA1 "ompared toA6gas# That is tosay more5Hydros"opi"5 $belie6e the "orre"tterm is# Thendrain using astandard strainer#

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3# ame %ay 2rop'2 effe"ts A2in a 'NC$2 'NA//D

G# :et out your2=H and getsomeone to gi6eyou a grounds"hool Cause $ha6ent enoughtime here#

=f"ourse thisdepends on %hatType or - dash6ersion of the 2Tyou operate and

Air"raft #

'egards>heep

29th u$u"t 2003, 15:05 #3 (permalink )

"Jam

)oin *ate+ )ul ../o"ation+ australia2osts+

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29th u$u"t 2003, 23:11 #5 (permalink )

JohnVtullamarine oderator )oin *ate+ Apr ..1

/o"ation+ 6arious pla"es #####2osts+ t fly 2T but ha6e had some peripheral in6ol6ement %iththem so the follo%ing has more of an engineering than pilot slant#

1# lat rating# ;ormal engine "hara"teristi" is for output to

in"rease as =AT de"reases at "onstant altitude# =n many enginesthe me"hani"als be"ome the limiting fa"tor 7typi"ally gearboxes,"ombustor pressures, or %hate6er8 and the ma"hine output has tobe restri"ted at =AT belo% that at %hi"h the me"hani"al limitationbe"omes "riti"al# Alternati6ely, the =N may "hose to limit theengine to a lo%er than maximum output for a 6ariety of reasons#$n this lo%er =AT region, the engine is said to be flat rated as thepo%er or thrust output is limited to pro6ide the rele6ant maximum%hi"h the me"hani"als "an tolerate or the =N "hoses to adopt#

=perationally this means that the 'T=I fall off %ith in"reasing=AT for a gi6en run%ay is modest until the engine is no longer flatrated and then falls off mu"h more rapidly %ith in"reasing =AT#

*erated "ertifi"ation# $f an engine is "apable of a "ertain output%ith %hate6er le6el of progressi6e deterioration in ser6i"e, then itis reasonable to presume that the me"hani"als and the hot end%ill last longer 7ie "heaper maintenan"e8 if %e hold the outputbelo% the maximum# There are t%o %ays to approa"h this

7a8 flexible thrust settings 7normally used on Jets8 %here theengine is operated in a manner %hi"h uses a lo%er than maximumthrust output ## but the limitations are based on the "ertifi"atedmaximum thrust "apability# or 0 rules, the maximum redu"tionis F per"ent#

7b8 derate thrust %here the engine is limited by the ele"troni"s orme"hani"al settings to be able to produ"e no more than a spe"ifi"per"entage of the maximum "apability# This has signifi"an"e "ostimpli"ations and may ha6e some performan"e ad6antages in"ertain "ir"umstan"es# any of the modern Jet engines are"ertifi"ated to se6eral thrust rating le6els, sele"table by theflight"re% 6ia or similar %iardry#

*erate and flex "an be used in "onJun"tion# This may %ell result in"onsiderably lo%er thrust output than the F per"ent flex limit forthe maximum thrust "ertifi"ation#

# Cranking po%er probably is the most signifi"ant fa"tor# =thersin"lude %ind 7espe"ially if from astern8#

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4 ailure of autofeather is 6ery serious on a dire"t turboprop7typi"ally the older engines8 as the %indmilling prop has to dri6e a%hole bun"h of turboma"hinery through the gearbox# u"h less of a problem on a free turbine but still of interest#

F A'41, no% defun"t but still rele6ant to older A'41 air"raft,upped the ante of A'< a bit to%ards A'F to fa"ilitate thede6elopment of early "ommuter air"raft# There is a useful AAmemo on the subJe"t %hi"h you might like to read#

T%o signifi"ant problems %ith A6tur is that the fuel>s "olouroften masks %ater and %ater may stay in suspension for"onsiderable time# As a result it is usual to employ "hemi"almeans to dete"t the presen"e of %ater and there are se6eralpro"esses in "ommon use#

3 $ %ill dig out some "harts for a "ouple of dash 6ariants and"ome ba"k %ith some numbers ##

G Better for rated pilots to address this one for the parti"ularengine#

29th u$u"t 2003, 23:16 #6 (permalink )


)oin *ate+ ="t .../o"ation+ An Asian HubAge+ 4

2osts+ G3F

There are not many "ommon problems %ith the 2T# The earlymodels had problems %ith lo% TB=s and H$ inter6als# But as theengine has e6elo6ed o6er the years the odern a"hines aremu"h better# Ha6ing TB= of around

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29th u$u"t 2003, 23:34 #7 (permalink )

.4guy

)oin *ate+ )un ..

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friends,,e6enthough "he"klists "an get old and dirty after a fe%freight dogs used them to s"rat"h the i"e off the leading edgesand props#

ure enough $ de"ided that the red eye life %as getting strainiousso de"ided to "on6ert my AA AT2/ o the glorious )AA AT2/#;eeded ground s"hool so here i %ent to =='*##%here theyfilled my poor freight dog head %ith te"hni"al information duringeight months##first pass in all subJe"ts##i must be te"hni"ally fitand someho% "le6er##did help a bit to pass my $'Etype rating %iththe CAA#lNA';$;: THN 3

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2osts+ 1F problems %hatsoe6er#

30th u$u"t 2003, 09:41 #11 (permalink )


)oin *ate+ ="t .../o"ation+ An Asian HubAge+ 42osts+ G3F

=k Topper,2lease dont keep us in suspense any longer %hat Type of Air"raftand 2TA 6ersion is fitted! /ets see, it "ould be one of thefollo%ing+

1# B.. @ingAir-----------2TA-4E41s# B. @ing Air------------2TA-.E1HNAT anun"iator "ome on at !8 but perhaps it %as

assumed that $ kne% the fundamentals#

A 6ery experien"ed pilot on"e told me 5Dou dont kno% %hat youdont kno%5 - $ think $ am in that position#

heepguts - $ts the -11 in the 4.

I'T my home%ork - Dou %ouldnt belie6e this sir but you see $%as looking after a friends dog#### $ only %ent out for fi6e

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minutes##### K

The po%er lea6er pedestal is marked in three ranges# light,:round $dle, re6erse# Iith a gate bet%een flight and ground idle#9ery little referen"e to Beta in the 2=H#

=ne mention in the definitions part of se"tion 1 5BNTA =*N -Nngine operational mode in %hi"h propeller blade pit"h is"ontrolled by the "o"kpit po%er le6er# :round ops only5

Then later on that 5To a"omplish re6erse pit"h, the po%er le6ersare retarded beyond idle, o6er the gate and into the BNTAposition5

rom the limitations se"tion of the 2=H, prop blade angle at Beta 'ange> "an be translated as re6erse, or negati6e blade pit"h#This is "ontrolled by the po%er le6er 7although it is basi"ally ablade pit"h "hange8 in order to be sure of the engine being in idlebefore re6ersing#

$>ts been a %hile, but i also remember the "ondition le6er ha6ingt%o detents, high and lo% idle, basi"ally only used for "ross-engine starting in hot&high "onditions# 2T-1 7"heyenne pa48

http://www.pprune.org/979778-post13.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/979778-post13.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/100719-turboprop-tips.html#post979778http://www.pprune.org/members/26154-hptaccvhttp://www.pprune.org/979778-post13.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/100719-turboprop-tips.html#post979778http://www.pprune.org/members/26154-hptaccv

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regarding flat- and derated engines+

relati6e to outside air temperature+

flat rated meaning the engine is rated to a "ertain po%er limit,before rea"hing itt limits for example# =n rea"hing an ambienttemperature %hi"h leads to egt limitation, this %ill be the limitingfa"tor, thus leading to less po%er a6ailable#

a de-rated engine on the other hand, is limited to an itt of say3..c", e6en though the manufa"turer limit might be 3F.c"# Thisredu"es maximum a6ailable po%er throughout the %holetemperature range#

$ stand to be "orre"tedK 7ex"use my stumbling englishK8

1"t %e&tember 2003, 05:07 #14 (permalink )

redsnail

##(u+e Hand%aiden

)oin *ate+ eb 13/o"ation+ *uit =n on *ei2osts+

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1"t %e&tember 2003, 16:59#17

(permalink )

Crossunder

Aviator

)oin *ate+ ay ..1/o"ation+ ;or6eg2osts+ 4F.

Iell, let>ssee###

DourCompany%ill7hopefully8introdu"eyou totheir =2,and you%ill alsore"ei6e ate"hni"al"ourseprior to

flyingtraining#Thatshould"lear upany?uestionsyou mightha6e#Apart fromthat flyingturbo

props isthe easiestthing in the%orld,ex"eptflying Jets#;o tri"ks,no funnybusiness, Just fuel onor fuel off#;e6erunderstood

%hat thefu isabout#

Auto Tae ,ff

Hi

http://www.pprune.org/980237-post17.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/100719-turboprop-tips.html#post980237http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/100719-turboprop-tips.html#post980237http://www.pprune.org/members/31991-crossunderhttp://www.pprune.org/980237-post17.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/100719-turboprop-tips.html#post980237http://www.pprune.org/members/31991-crossunder

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$ tried sear"hing the %eb for information on t%o topi"s that ha6e been pulingme for a long time 7but had no su""ess, maybe you guys "an help8#

18 *oes any Commer"ial Airliner ha6e an auto takeoff fa"ility! omebodymentioned the /1.11 to me on"e 7it %asn>t the gu6 eitherK8#

$f not, %hy not!

8 $ read a book on"e, perhaps it %as 5handling the big Jets5, ho%e6er $ re"allthe published date as 134#

This book had some pi"s inside the "o"kpit of a B=AC 343-1..E.., and inbet%een the pilots Just in front of the throttles %as a 6ery large 6ernier typedial named 5/NI5 - %hat didEdoes this do!!!

3rd %e&tember 2003, 23:41#2

(permalink )

:olden 'i6et

)oin *ate+ eb ..1/o"ation+ The grim north####2osts+ m happyto be"orre"ted#

:'

3rd %e&tember 2003,

23:44#3 (permalink )

fatboy slim

)oin *ate+ ;o6 1/o"ation+ 0@2osts+ 1F4

8 $ think /NI %ould be Da% Trim in today>s money#

http://www.pprune.org/983234-post2.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/101273-auto-take-off.html#post983234http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/101273-auto-take-off.html#post983234http://www.pprune.org/members/27695-golden-rivethttp://www.pprune.org/983236-post3.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/983236-post3.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/101273-auto-take-off.html#post983236http://www.pprune.org/members/9907-fatboy-slimhttp://www.pprune.org/983234-post2.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/101273-auto-take-off.html#post983234http://www.pprune.org/members/27695-golden-rivethttp://www.pprune.org/983236-post3.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/101273-auto-take-off.html#post983236http://www.pprune.org/members/9907-fatboy-slim

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4th %e&tember 2003,11:55

#4 (permalink )

WA9$=;

2osts+ nEa

5;ot that $ kno% of - most autopilots "an only be engaged after aspe"ified altitude has been attained 7 eg 4.. ft 8#5

*epends on the mode, :', and, of "ourse, the air"raft#

$ ha6e had no problem engaging H*: H/*, H*: N/, 9E and/CH on a 343-4.. on the ground# Theoreti"ally, you "ould use/CH for takeoff, if it %asn>t so risky doing so 7$ belie6e someonehas already tried this, any%ay, in real life and got a%ay %ith it8#

Da% "ontrol %ould be another matter# $t>s not engaged until theair"raft is in the air 7plus or minus a fe% se"onds8#

Autotakeoff is a"hie6able, te"hnologi"ally, but it "arries a lot ofrisks# Dou %ould probably need a "omputer like *eep Thought to"onsider all the things that "ould go %rong and then take

appropriate a"tion### something %hi"h the pilots ha6e alreadymentally prepared themsel6es for before they push the T=:Abutton#

'egards#W#

4th %e&tember 2003,19:49

#5 (permalink )

Ahhh9CG1

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7th %e&tember 2003,14:41

#7 (permalink )

]/an"er]

)oin *ate+ ar .../o"ation+ Australia2osts+ FG

$ heard they>re looking at it ?uite seriously for the As not that hard to do - apparently Boeing ha6e already admittedit>s only a minor modifi"ation to the autoflight suite to get it going7hell, enough drones do it already8# Auto-'otate pit"h mode, and'ollout 7or similar8 isn>t that "ompli"ated - e6en %ith an engineout# WA9$=;, there are a lot of "onsiderations, but like landing,e6en if you get a ;o-Autoland you "an still take manual "ontrol%ithout signifi"ant "onse?uen"e#

The alternati6e is if the automati" feature simply Just "ontrols theele6ator to a6oid s"raping the tail###

$ really hope the insuran"e "ompanies realise the o6er%helming

negati6es of mandating auto take-off and landingK

/an"er

8th %e&tember 2003,02:06

#8 (permalink )

/arry in T;

)oin *ate+ )ul .../o"ation+ 0A2osts+ s the point!

Autoland makes sense be"ause it allo%s you to land in lo%er6isabilities# Ihat %ould auto takeoff gi6e us that %ould Justify the

expense of the e?uipment, training and maintanan"e!

8th %e&tember 2003,05:35

#9 (permalink )

B3

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;ot sure $ understand this, B3

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2osts+ 1,

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ne"essarily be digitied, prioritied and programmed, "an it!

Last edited by "gnition #$erride : 1%th September 2003 at 13:1&!

14th %e&tember 2003,15:05 #16 (permalink )

;igel=n*raft

)oin *ate+ )an ..1/o"ation+ 0@2osts+ 1,

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Bean "ounters %illal%ays opt for fixed"osts o6er flexible i#e#e?uipment againsthumans# They "an planfor fixed "osts %ithpur"hase, depre"iationand 7so a fair degree8maintenan"e, a"ross tenyears# Humans makeunplanned demands andmay resign, go on strikeor experien"e long termillness, needing "ontra"t7expensi6e8repla"ements# Iorst"ase, ""xd se"tors# Iith

a box, you go and buyanother one and if themaintenan"e "osts rise,you "hange themaintenan"e supplier#Nnsuring, if at allpossible, that if the ne%lo%er "ost maintainermakes a mistake, thathe %ill pi"k up theliability of a "laim#

/ast %eek, $ %as in a

meeting of a $ery seniorand experien"edengineer 7not a6iation8and he said,Wuote+

The a""ountantsoptimised the hellout of e6erythingand then they gotbored# o theyde"ided to run the

"ompanies as %ell#;o% %e>re all introuble#

"in visibility for departure in $,.s

$ %onder if you "an share some information on the minimumre?uired departure 6isibility in /o% 6is operations#

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'e"ently our CAT $$ has been do%ngraded to CAT $ due to /=Cinterferen"e and $ %as Just %ondering if that %ould "hnage the min6is re?uirement for departing air"rfat from the airport in lo%6isibility "onditions# $n a CAT $$ situation, the min re?uired 6is %as1F m and if the T* '9' fails, then it in"reases to 1F. m and both

mid point and stop end '9's must be ser6i"eable for a reJe"tedtake-off# ;o%, in a CAT $ situation, the normal '9' for landing isFF.m and $ must assume that in order to depart safely, the mindeparture 6isibility must be FF. m in the e6ent that the "re% has toreturn for an immediate landing after take-off in an emergen"y# $fthe dep# 6is is less than FF.m and you are allo%ed to depart, doesit re?uire a take-off alternate %hi"h must be %ithin a shortdistan"eEtime a%ay!

*o you expe"t "ontrollers to prote"t the $/ sensiti6e area %hen the6is drops belo% .. m and ..feet! =ur CAT $ holding points are%ithin the sensiti6e areas and the ?uestion is %hether it is

permisable to hold air"raft at the CAT $ holds %hen there is arri6ingair"raft on the approa"h! 0sing the CAT $$ holds %ill ob6iously take"are of the situation, but it re?uires additional spa"ing on finalbet%een arri6als in order to get a departure a%ay# Dou are probablylooking at a min 1F nm in trail distan"e bet%een arri6als if adeparture is inserted in bet%een arri6als#

Any information on lo% 6is ops %ould be appre"iated#

Thanks

art

17th 'ctber 2002, 19:37 #2 (permalink )

2ilot 2ete

)oin *ate+ Aug .../o"ation+ N:CC2osts+ 1,3.G

fart

Wuite right in yourassumptions# $f youneed to make an /9=approa"h you need to"he"k %ith ATC thatthey ha6e /9=>s infor"e to ensure

prote"tion et"# o itfollo%s that you %ouldnot %ant to be makingan autoland in /9="onditions if ATC %erestill using the CAT $holding points#

Dou are also "orre"t in

http://www.pprune.org/663454-post2.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/70084-min-visibility-departure-lvos.html#post663454http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/70084-min-visibility-departure-lvos.html#post663454http://www.pprune.org/members/19351-pilot-petehttp://www.pprune.org/663454-post2.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/70084-min-visibility-departure-lvos.html#post663454http://www.pprune.org/members/19351-pilot-pete

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thinking that thespa"ing is in"reasedsignifi"antly in /9="onditions 7anyATC=>s got the exa"tgen!8 and delays areto be expe"ted somake sure you ha6eplenty of fuel for goinground in "ir"les atyour destinationshould the fore"ast bebad# $t>s also %orth"onsidering yourstrategy %hen you getto the o6erhead andenter the hold# ATC%ill generally gi6e you

the expe"ted delay inthe hold, if that isgoing to put you "loseto a di6ersion de"isionthen it may be %orthdi6erting early, gettinginto your alternateand re-fuelling %ithplenty 7golden ruledon>t te"h stop andend up di6erting againbe"ause you didn>t putenough onK8 of fuel

then ra"e ba"k to youroriginal destination%hi"h is no% less busybe"ause e6eryone elsehas no% di6erted to%here you>6e JustbeenK Happened to uson"e going intoan"hester earlymorning %ith no lo%6is fore"ast but /92>sin operation %hen %e

pi"ked up the AT$#N6ery man and hisdog entering the sta"k7all %ith the samefore"ast as us so no-one had mu"h fuel tobe playing %ith8 and%e di6erted beforee6en rea"hing *ayne,

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refuelled at Brum ase6eryone else follo%edus in, departed andlanded at an"hprobably 6e flo%n%ith a "ouple of outfitsno% and one used4..nm and the other

F.nm8 is not do%n to$/ "ategory primarily,more to do %ith %orst"ase, i#e# enginefailure on TE= %hi"hpre"ludes an autoland7on the 3F3 you "anonly autoland %ith oneengine if you ha6earmed >approa"h> priorto losing the engine8,but that does lead tosome debate on is it

%iser to fly possibly a"onsiderable distan"eto an alternate on oneengine %hen you ha6ea perfe"tly ser6i"eableairfield in /92>s nearby7don>t shoot me do%n$ didn>t say $>d do it, Just there is a debateabout itK8# o e6en ifthe $/ %as CAT $$$%e "ouldn>t make an

approa"h in the NAT="ase#

Hope thathelps######there>stonnes more for a%inters day readingK

22

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fart

)oin *ate+ )un .../o"ation+ ome%here you"annot find meKKK2osts+ 3

Thans

2ilot 2ete,Thank you for the info - it is indeed 6ery helpful#

'egarding the spa"ing on final, and by the %ay, $ am not from or%orking in the 0@, our spa"ing "riteria is as follo%s+ 7ome%herein N8

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Wuote+

The only "riterea %hen departing from an airport that is belo%landing minimums is to in"lude a 5*eparture Alternate5 forplanning purposes#

%hi"h is not stri"tly true as %ith a minimum departure 6is of 1Fm'9' and a CAT $$$b approa"h minima of 3Fm the airfield landingminima "ould be less than the departure minima, thus the "riterionfor the departure alternate is more about conditions precluding areturn to that field i#e# %orst "ase in"luding te"hni"al problems su"has single engine, as mentioned abo6e on one engine %e "ould notdo an autoland if the engine failed before arming the approa"hmode# o no, minima for approa"h and departure ha6e no"omparison, but if you are going to depart you need to kno% %hereyou "an go if you should not be able to return#

22

edited due too mu"h "abernet sau6ignon

21"t 'ctber 2002, 21:52 #6 (permalink )

:lueBall

)oin *ate+ )un ..1/o"ation+ 0TC OG2osts+ ,14

=ur AA =ps pe"s "riteria for a 5*eparture Alternate5 is that theairport is %ithin hours "ruise 7still air8 %ith one engine inop# $fthat "ondition "annot be met, then ob6iously takeoff is notpermitted###until an airport %ithin t%o hours "ruise in still air7in"luding the airport of origin8 meets alternate landing %eatherminimums#$ think %hat you need to keep in mind is that a minimum 6isibility

takeoff is not predi"ated on being able to immediatley return tothe point of departure# $ ha6e departed many airports many timesin %eather "onditions that pre"luded a return in "ase of an enginefailure#

21"t 'ctber 2002, 23:19 #7 (permalink )

BlueNagle

)oin *ate+ ay ../o"ation+ Australia2osts+ ,F

#/ 0#ara isual /isplay1

=n the B343-4.. $ fle% %e had a 29* display, 7a bla"k and %hitebarbers pole8, on the "oaming, "entrally in front of ea"h pilot#

The 29* re?uires a useable $/ lo"aliser signal that has to besele"ted prior to take off# Ihen the air"raft is on and pointingdo%n the run%ay "entreline the display %ill be stationary#

*uring the take-off roll, the 29* %ill pro6ide "entreline guidan"e%hen the aeroplane ex"eeds #F degrees or greater de6iationfrom the run%ay "entreline# The display mo6ing to the left is a"ommand to turn to the left and 6i"e 6ersa, the faster the display

http://www.pprune.org/666694-post6.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/666694-post6.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/70084-min-visibility-departure-lvos.html#post666694http://www.pprune.org/members/33992-glueballhttp://www.pprune.org/666752-post7.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/666752-post7.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/70084-min-visibility-departure-lvos.html#post666752http://www.pprune.org/members/52309-blueeaglehttp://www.pprune.org/666694-post6.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/70084-min-visibility-departure-lvos.html#post666694http://www.pprune.org/members/33992-glueballhttp://www.pprune.org/666752-post7.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/70084-min-visibility-departure-lvos.html#post666752http://www.pprune.org/members/52309-blueeagle

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mo6es the larger is the "ommand#

This e?uipment allo%ed to take off %hen the '9' %as do%n to,but not, belo% 1.. meters#

22nd 'ctber 2002, 10:47 #8 (permalink )

2ilot 2ete


$nteresting Blue

Ias the slant 6ie% from a 343 "o"kpit %orse than for a smallertype ie# 3#

'eason for 29*# ;ot all operators ha6e the 29* fitted but $ amguessing that it %as originally intended to get minima do%n to'9' 1..> as the TE= minima other%ise %ould be as published inthe )eppeson#


m&6

)oin *ate+ *e" 1/o"ation+ delta#b"#"anada2osts+ F

2ilot pete,yes you %ill get the s"enario %hereas the >landing>6is islo%er than the TEo 6is-due to the theory that the ed>s gi6e morelee%ay to a *ynami" situation than the stati" situ 7on the ground8=ne needs a "ertain '9' for TEo,as stipulated by the =ps spe"#namely ..>-1..>feet 7north ameri"a8depending on theairportErun%ay lighting and e?uipement#$f the %eather is oninimums for TEo-one needs a TEo alt7%ithin 1 hour t%insEhoursmore than t%in8###That ha6ing been said ,one "an al%ays return in

the e6ent of NN'>on a CAT< arri6al7im pra"ti"e heart atta"ket"8#$f the CAT< goes bust,then the Cat ,or the Cat1,%ith there?uired in"rease in '9',is re?uired for the return#Basi"ally .. r6r for TEo needs Centre line lightsEmarkings-if no"entre line-1.. applies


http://www.pprune.org/667043-post8.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/667043-post8.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/70084-min-visibility-departure-lvos.html#post667043http://www.pprune.org/members/19351-pilot-petehttp://www.pprune.org/667638-post9.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/667638-post9.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/70084-min-visibility-departure-lvos.html#post667638http://www.pprune.org/members/52309-blueeaglehttp://www.pprune.org/669254-post10.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/669254-post10.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/70084-min-visibility-departure-lvos.html#post669254http://www.pprune.org/members/10949-m-and-vhttp://www.pprune.org/669668-post11.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/669668-post11.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/70084-min-visibility-departure-lvos.html#post669668http://www.pprune.org/667043-post8.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/70084-min-visibility-departure-lvos.html#post667043http://www.pprune.org/members/19351-pilot-petehttp://www.pprune.org/667638-post9.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/70084-min-visibility-departure-lvos.html#post667638http://www.pprune.org/members/52309-blueeaglehttp://www.pprune.org/669254-post10.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/70084-min-visibility-departure-lvos.html#post669254http://www.pprune.org/members/10949-m-and-vhttp://www.pprune.org/669668-post11.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/70084-min-visibility-departure-lvos.html#post669668

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2ilot 2ete


Blue

Thanks for the reply, interesting reading#

m&6

$ think %e are saying the same thing in a roundabout %ay# Here inthe 0@ %ith my =ps anual %e "an depart do%n to 1Fm '9'%ith "ertain aE", "re% and airfield re?uirements met# $f the airportis CAT$$$b operational then %e "ould undoubtably make anapproa"h to minima if %e re?uired to return to the field using thepublished CAT$$$b minima 7usually .> or 14> *H and 3Fm '9'8,but only, and this is the point $ %as trying to make, if the aE","re% and airfield %ere to meet the operational minimalre?uirements# $t therefore follo%s that the TE= alternate hasnothing to do %ith the departure minima but is there %hen areturn to this airfield is pre"luded due to do%ngrade of e?uipmentmeaning that the re6ised minima %ould not get us ba"k in the

example $ used %as in the NAT= s"enario %here %e "ould notmake an approa"h to autoland if the engine had failed beforearming the A22' mode, therefore a suitable departure alternate isre?uired %ithin a "ertain distan"eE flight time %ith %eather"onditions fore"ast as good as or better than the re?uired minimadependant on the approa"h aid to be used at that field#

2he%, hope that "lears my feelings up on this matterK

22


i"k ?uid oderator )oin *ate+ Apr 1G/o"ation+ Nxile on :uildfordHigh treetAge+ 442osts+ 1,F

###another little issue to "onsider### there should be a limitsome%here in your ops manual for take-off belo% %hi"h /92>smust be in for"e### 4..m for my "ompany#

To go do%n to our absolute minimum 71F.mE1Fm8 re?uiresprote"tion## ?uite %hy %hen the 29* is not re?uired for that $don>t fully understand 7apart from the in-trail landingEdepartingair"raft "onsideration8 but there you go#

Iith planned Cat

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m&6

)oin *ate+ *e" 1/o"ation+ delta#b"#"anada

2osts+ F

Agreed 22The %hole "on"ept of the *ept Alt is be"oming deemphasisedthese days %ith the autolandEeng out "apability of the fleettypes#The only "ase is total po%er failure at the *ept field7aux

should ki"k in8,thunder storms,or strong %inds et"#The "on"ept seem>s to be an >olde> holdo6er from the Cat1 days#

Cheers


2ilot 2ete


i"k ?uid

:ot me looking for the '9' limit belo% %hi"h /92>s %ould ha6e tobe in for"e for departure but "ould not find one spe"ified

any%here# $ %ould therefore assume that if $ %ere to depart %ithless than CAT $ '9' approa"h minima then /92>s should be infor"e!

Dou also mention CAT $$$a minima allo%ing return on one engine#*oes your type allo% for a planned autoland in the "ase of anNAT=! That $ find 6ery interesting as the 3F3 does not allo% forthis#

Could your re?uired >prote"tion> %hen do%n to absolute departureminima be anything to do %ith ensuring you line up on the"entreline by referen"e to the lo"aliser!

22


pitoon

)oin *ate+ Apr ../o"ation+ Nurope2osts+ ,.

As a "ontroller $ "an>t really "omment on =ps anual pro"eduresbut bear in mind that here in the 0@ /92s "an in6ol6e far morethan Just using CAT $$$ holds# any other restri"tions areintrodu"ed to limit the number of 6ehi"le 7and sometimes air"raft8in airside areas and often to physi"ally blo"k run%ay a""ess pointsthat %ill not be used# At airports that do not ha6e surfa"emo6ement radar it is "ommon for mo6ement on the

manoeu6ering area to be limited to one at a time# Thesepro"edures are intended to pre6ent unauthorised run%ayin"ursions but may also be taken into a""ount by the =ps anual#


m&6 Des>

http://www.pprune.org/670684-post13.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/670684-post13.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/70084-min-visibility-departure-lvos.html#post670684http://www.pprune.org/members/10949-m-and-vhttp://www.pprune.org/670933-post14.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/670933-post14.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/70084-min-visibility-departure-lvos.html#post670933http://www.pprune.org/members/19351-pilot-petehttp://www.pprune.org/671557-post15.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/671557-post15.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/70084-min-visibility-departure-lvos.html#post671557http://www.pprune.org/members/50291-spitoonhttp://www.pprune.org/674192-post16.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/674192-post16.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/70084-min-visibility-departure-lvos.html#post674192http://www.pprune.org/members/10949-m-and-vhttp://www.pprune.org/670684-post13.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/70084-min-visibility-departure-lvos.html#post670684http://www.pprune.org/members/10949-m-and-vhttp://www.pprune.org/670933-post14.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/70084-min-visibility-departure-lvos.html#post670933http://www.pprune.org/members/19351-pilot-petehttp://www.pprune.org/671557-post15.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/70084-min-visibility-departure-lvos.html#post671557http://www.pprune.org/members/50291-spitoonhttp://www.pprune.org/674192-post16.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/70084-min-visibility-departure-lvos.html#post674192http://www.pprune.org/members/10949-m-and-v

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)oin *ate+ *e" 1/o"ation+ delta#b"#"anada2osts+ F

the As good for an auto land on one engine,although for along time >lo"al> fed>s disallo%ed it#$n Canada still different>appro6als> for different Co>s#$n Catt< ops the engine has to be >se"ured>and "he"ks "omplete

at least 1...> agl#####

1"t *ember 2002, 16:49#17

(permalink )

BusBoy

)oin *ate+ Apr 12osts+ 1.

At this also "o6er the speed to be flo%n

in rough, turbulent air %hen the gust "onditions en"ountered "an repli"atethe same "onditions affe"ting 9a#

$>6e run a"ross a fe% "haps %ho %ould like the speed flo%n in turbulen"e tobe far belo% the rough air speed in the C= so $ am "urious as to %hatshould be flo%n#

Any input %ould be greatly appre"iated#

ThanksK

10th January 2003, 14:08 #2 (permalink )

dolly3

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7dont ha6e theregs handyright no%8# Butthe o6erallstress for theair"raft7turbulen"e 6s#manoeu6ering8is ;=T thesame#anoeu6eringmeans pilot-indu"ed loads6ia the "ontrolsurfa"es, %hi"his not"onsidered inturbulen"e, at

least for"ertifi"ation#o if you ha6ea publishedturbulen"espeed, sti"k toit rather thangetting "lose tostalling#

happy landings


BH

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/=CN9A@

)oin *ate+ ep ..1/o"ation+ 0@2osts+ F

9a is the maximum speed at %hi"h full "ontrol 7rudder,aileronEspoiler or ele6atorEtailplane8 may be applied %ithoutex"eeding the stru"tural limits of the air"raft# The pre6ious postdes"ribes the fundamentals of turbulen"e penetration speed %ell#As has been said abo6e, there is no dire"t relationship bet%eenthe t%o#


;one

)oin *ate+ )ul .../o"ation+ Iest2osts+ s8 and airspeed# $t might be found that today many pilots ha6ere-thought ho% rudder use fits into these e?uations#


JohnVtullamarine oderator )oin *ate+ Apr ..1/o"ation+ 6arious pla"es #####2osts+

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Although 9a, "al"ulated at max# "ertifi"ated T=I, %ill not "hange,published limiting speeds for manoeu6re or for full "ontroldefle"tion %ill "hange %ith air"raft %eight, as basi" stall speed"hanges#

But $ only ?uote %hat %as %rote in )A's# )ohn T and others areyour real expert sour"es#

*i"k I


JohnVtullamarine oderator )oin *ate+ Apr ..1

/o"ation+ 6arious pla"es #####2osts+ s des"ription is pretty "lose to the mark andgenerally ade?uate for pilot purposes ### and "ertainly a lot easierthan %ading through the rule s%amp ###

Last edited by +ohn,tullamarine : 13th -anuary 2003 at 12:** !


9olume

)oin *ate+ *e" ..1/o"ation+ %hat 0## "allsMold NuropeM2osts+

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"al"ulated speed, depending Just on the %ing loading 7)A'EA'

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)oin *ate+ *e" ../o"ation+ Bahamas2osts+

Chris


lamgat

)oin *ate+ Aug ../o"ation+ Bristol2osts+ 1G

Another thought on the subJe"t# $f you look at )A' F#

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;one

)oin *ate+ )ul .../o"ation+ Iest2osts+ turbulen"e>#

There is;=TH$;: %rong%ith flyingbelo% 9ra in>turbulen"e> aslong as the>turbulen"e> isnot life-threatening#Ihen it is, fly9ra# 'edu"ingspeed %ill 7!

al%ays! -standing by tobe "orre"tedK8impro6e the ridefor the salarypayers in lightor e6enmoderate"hopEturbulen"e

http://www.pprune.org/753926-post16.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/753926-post16.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/77690-va-compared-rough-air-speed.html#post753926http://www.pprune.org/members/17989-nonehttp://www.pprune.org/754912-post17.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/77690-va-compared-rough-air-speed.html#post754912http://www.pprune.org/members/14135-boachttp://www.pprune.org/753926-post16.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/77690-va-compared-rough-air-speed.html#post753926http://www.pprune.org/members/17989-nonehttp://www.pprune.org/754912-post17.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/77690-va-compared-rough-air-speed.html#post754912http://www.pprune.org/members/14135-boac

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%ithoutthreatening theair"raft>sstru"tural oraerodynami"integrity# Ihenit looks as if thebumps aregetting so badyou think you%ill either stallor break up - fly9ra - and a6oid#

)o%ing to a full stop before tae off

This ?uestion might be some%hat ambigious from a te"hni"al point of 6ie%- but here goes+

$ ha6e been flying a lot lately and ha6e noti"ed that sometimes the air"raftstarts its roll and the engines start to spool up Just as it enters the run%ayfrom the taxi%ay, %hile at other times it "omes to a full stop on therun%ay and then "ommen"es take off#

Assuming that the air"raft has not been gi6en a 5taxi into position andhold5 "learan"e - is it preferable to "ome to a full stop before take off ornot! Also are there spe"ifi" airline poli"ies that state either!

10th u$u"t 2002, 19:01 #2 (permalink )

$ntruder


*ifferentairlines ha6edifferentpoli"ies# ome,for example,re?uire a fullstop if the E=is the pilotflying#

Boeing says itmakes nopra"ti"aldifferen"e froma performan"estandpoint#

http://www.pprune.org/592584-post2.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/62840-coming-full-stop-before-take-off.html#post592584http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/62840-coming-full-stop-before-take-off.html#post592584http://www.pprune.org/members/15686-intruderhttp://www.pprune.org/592584-post2.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/62840-coming-full-stop-before-take-off.html#post592584http://www.pprune.org/members/15686-intruder

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10th u$u"t 2002, 19:13 #3 (permalink )

;one

)oin *ate+ )ul .../o"ation+ Iest

2osts+ sha6ing pro"eeded some distan"e do%n the run%ay prior to thespin up rea"hing takeoff thrust# $n su"h "ir"umstan"es, there isthe possibility that the rolling takeoff may "ompromise the sums#

ost operators %ould get around this problem by doing a fe%sums and pres"ribing a belo% 'T=I toleran"e %ithin %hi"h more

rigorous attention to te"hni?ue is re?uired #######

Last edited by +ohn,tullamarine : 11th .ugust 2002 at 02:2/!

11th u$u"t 2002, 04:19 #6 (permalink )

Capt Claret Shon

http://www.pprune.org/592592-post3.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/592592-post3.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/62840-coming-full-stop-before-take-off.html#post592592http://www.pprune.org/members/17989-nonehttp://www.pprune.org/592774-post4.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/592774-post4.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/62840-coming-full-stop-before-take-off.html#post592774http://www.pprune.org/members/4759-fireflybobhttp://www.pprune.org/592844-post5.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/592844-post5.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/62840-coming-full-stop-before-take-off.html#post592844http://www.pprune.org/members/31647-john_tullamarinehttp://www.pprune.org/592967-post6.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/592967-post6.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/62840-coming-full-stop-before-take-off.html#post592967http://www.pprune.org/members/13009-capt-clarethttp://www.pprune.org/592592-post3.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/62840-coming-full-stop-before-take-off.html#post592592http://www.pprune.org/members/17989-nonehttp://www.pprune.org/592774-post4.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/62840-coming-full-stop-before-take-off.html#post592774http://www.pprune.org/members/4759-fireflybobhttp://www.pprune.org/592844-post5.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/62840-coming-full-stop-before-take-off.html#post592844http://www.pprune.org/members/31647-john_tullamarinehttp://www.pprune.org/592967-post6.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/62840-coming-full-stop-before-take-off.html#post592967http://www.pprune.org/members/13009-capt-claret

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'ottums p

)oin *ate+ eb .../o"ation+ dunnundaAge+ F2osts+ ,44

=n the BAe14 %ith the operator $ %ork for, %e ha6e guidan"e inthe type =2s 7tandard =perating 2ro"edures8#

Basi"ally if the air"rafts a"tual B'I 7Brakes 'elease Ieight8 is%ithin .. kg of the 'T=I 7'egulated Take =ff Ieight8 %e "ometo a halt, ad6an"e the thrust le6ers and don>t release the brakesuntil a"hie6ing .R ;1#

$f the B'I is %ithin 4.. kg of 'T=I %e must set takeoff ;1 priorto releasing the brake as %ell as ensuring that %e do not"ompromise the line up allo%an"e used to "al"ulate the 'T=I#

Ihy!

Basi"ally to ensure that the 'T=I is not "ompromised so that inthe e6ent of an engine failure there is ade?uate performan"e forobsta"le "learan"e#

$f say %e did a rolling start at B'I U 'T=I, it %ould be ?uitepossible to ha6e take off thrust set later than the performan"e"al"ulations assume# Thus air"raft a""eleration %ould be slo%erthan predi"ted and the air"raft %ould be further do%n the run%ay%hen it rea"hed 91# A reJe"ted take off "ould see the air"raft o6errun the run%ay end#

"f by spelling out the abbre$iations "m telling you ho to suckeggs please accept my apology

11th u$u"t 2002, 10:08 #7 (permalink )

/T

)oin *ate+ *e" 1G/o"ation+ 0@2osts+ 14

Airbus =2>s suggest a rolling takeoff %hen possible# $ guess theother thing about this is that at airports %here run%ay o""upan"ytime is a fa"tor, it %ould be al%ays preferable to do a rollingtakeoff to keep o""upan"y time at a minimum to help ATC, e6en%hen you are not gi6en 5"leared immediate takeoff5# Ie ha6e allbeen gi6en a standard 5"leared for takeoff5 %hen there is traffi" at4 miles# 2erfe"tly =@ as regards separation, but %hy redu"e thespa"ing by stopping!!

=ur "ompany =2>s a"ross all fleets, and $ %ould imagine in mostother airlines as %ell is not to a""ept a line-up or take off"learan"e unless you "an taxy on and do Just that %ithout

stopping#

Hope this helps

11th u$u"t 2002, 19:21 #8 (permalink )

$ntruder fireflybob+

http://www.pprune.org/593117-post7.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/593117-post7.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/62840-coming-full-stop-before-take-off.html#post593117http://www.pprune.org/members/3875-slthttp://www.pprune.org/593520-post8.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/593520-post8.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/62840-coming-full-stop-before-take-off.html#post593520http://www.pprune.org/members/15686-intruderhttp://www.pprune.org/593117-post7.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/62840-coming-full-stop-before-take-off.html#post593117http://www.pprune.org/members/3875-slthttp://www.pprune.org/593520-post8.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/62840-coming-full-stop-before-take-off.html#post593520http://www.pprune.org/members/15686-intruder

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The Boeing info $ ha6e is for the 343-4..# y intent %as to"on6ey that the standing 6s rolling start is not di"tated byrun%ayEperforman"e limitations 7i#e#, there is no pra"ti"aldifferen"e or ad6antage either %ay for takeoff roll, 91 "al"ulation,et"8# There may %ell be operational "onsiderations in the de"ision,in"luding all those that other people mentioned 7=*, anti-i"e,ATC, et"8#

11th u$u"t 2002, 21:45 #9 (permalink )

nitro rig dri6er

)oin *ate+ ay ../o"ation+ some%here nearan airport2osts+ 11

i asked this ?uestion to a instru"tor on"e and the ans%er %as thatboeing saysstopping on the end enables the fuel in the surge tanks and thetop hat se"tion to flo% ba"k into the tanks,other%ise it remainstrapped due to the angle of the %ing during flightho%e6er i doubt this as they Just donEt stay on the end long

enough,but i belei6e not all aE" ha6e surge tanks no% adays

12th u$u"t 2002, 19:46 #10 (permalink )

light *etent

)oin *ate+ )an ../o"ation+ Brisbane,Australia2osts+ 4

Hi >;itro rig dri6er> -- say %hatKKK

As far as B343 is "on"erned, it>s purely an engine run-up rolling,6erses the run-up stati", %ith less run%ay used up, %hen it>s"riti"al, doing the run-up to 1#1 N2' stopped, takes only about F -G se"onds, and is %orth the 6Eshort delay#

Cheers

25th u$u"t 2002, 10:42 #11 (permalink )

bse6enfour

)oin *ate+ eb 1/o"ation+ Asia2osts+

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do a stati" run up if the "ross%ind "omponent is greater than .kts due to the in"reased possibility of engine surge#

26th u$u"t 2002, 08:47 #12 (permalink )

light *etent


orgi6e me if $ missed something here,%eren>t %e di"ussing rolling take-offs 6s stopping prior to a"tually"ommen"ing the take-off,a stati" run-up is a different matter all together, me thinksK

Cheers

31"t u$u"t 2002, 00:19 #13 (permalink )

"rJ-Jo"key

)oin *ate+ Aug ../o"ation+ 0C2osts+ 1F

Hello,it all%ays depends on your "al"ulations and the pre6ailing"ir"umstan"es#All our TE= "al"ulations are based on a .m rolling TE=-allo%an"e7.m rolling until TE= thrust8# Ho%e6er, there are "ertain"ir"umstan"es re?uirering a stati" TE=7see statemant abo6e8#;o%adays, %e do our "al"ulations %ith a pilots %orkpad 7/aptop8,%hi"h all%ays pro6ide your spe"ifi" stop margin in e6ent of a 'T=#o the final de"ision rests %ith the 2$C "onsidering allpre6ai6ailing "ir"umstan"es#

2nd %e&tember 2002,20:15

#14 (permalink )

light *etent


As it al%ays does KKK

4th %e&tember 2002,14:08

#15 (permalink )

teamhead

)oin *ate+ )an .../o"ation+Ii"kford,Nssex,Nngland2osts+ GG

Try stopping on the run%ay at /:I on a ni"e day , %ith the 5A5

team in the to%er, and in the rush hour#$t %ould be enlightning to learn some ne% s%ear %ords#

'egards

6th %e&tember 2002,22:03

#16 (permalink )

http://www.pprune.org/611196-post12.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/611196-post12.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/62840-coming-full-stop-before-take-off.html#post611196http://www.pprune.org/members/46111-flight-detenthttp://www.pprune.org/616917-post13.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/616917-post13.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/62840-coming-full-stop-before-take-off.html#post616917http://www.pprune.org/members/57476-crj-jockeyhttp://www.pprune.org/619747-post14.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/619747-post14.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/62840-coming-full-stop-before-take-off.html#post619747http://www.pprune.org/members/46111-flight-detenthttp://www.pprune.org/622099-post15.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/622099-post15.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/62840-coming-full-stop-before-take-off.html#post622099http://www.pprune.org/members/11876-steamheadhttp://www.pprune.org/625292-post16.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/625292-post16.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/62840-coming-full-stop-before-take-off.html#post625292http://www.pprune.org/611196-post12.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/62840-coming-full-stop-before-take-off.html#post611196http://www.pprune.org/members/46111-flight-detenthttp://www.pprune.org/616917-post13.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/62840-coming-full-stop-before-take-off.html#post616917http://www.pprune.org/members/57476-crj-jockeyhttp://www.pprune.org/619747-post14.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/62840-coming-full-stop-before-take-off.html#post619747http://www.pprune.org/members/46111-flight-detenthttp://www.pprune.org/622099-post15.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/62840-coming-full-stop-before-take-off.html#post622099http://www.pprune.org/members/11876-steamheadhttp://www.pprune.org/625292-post16.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/62840-coming-full-stop-before-take-off.html#post625292

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:lueBall

)oin *ate+ )un ..1/o"ation+ 0TC OG2osts+ ,14

=ur =2+ 'olling takeoffs, unless other%ise di"tated by ATC#

7th %e&tember 2002, 11:42#17

(permalink )

*an Iinterland

)oin *ate+ )un ..1/o"ation+ ragrant Harbour2osts+ ,34

=n the 3447%ith :N>s,i#e# ;1po%er ref,not N2'8there is nodifferen"e#

=n mypre6ioustype79C1.8, %eused to getanothertonne>s%orth of'T=I bystoppingand runningup to G.R; before

releasingthe brakes#

T)AS 2uestion

$ %as flying %ith a "aptain re"ently and %e dis"ussed an in"ident in %hi"hanother air"raft had been 6e"tored to pass F..> o6er the top of his air"raft#The in"ident o""urred in the 0 and the other air"raft %as operating 9'#Aside from the legality of this "learan"e, %hat "onfused us %as %hether this%ould generate a TCA 'A gi6en that both air"raft %ould pass ea"h otherflying straight and le6el#

*oes TCA only gi6e 'A>s if there is an a"tual impending "ollision or does itgi6e 'As if the "learan"e bet%een you and the "onfli"ting air"raft drops belo%a "ertain figure! $f so, %hat is that minimum "learan"e!

12th June 2002, 02:04#2

(permalink )

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im)o"k

)oin *ate+ ="t ..1/o"ation+ 0@Age+ 4F2osts+ 13<

TCA has arange ofsensiti6itybands thatares%it"hed inat differentaltitudes# $tall depends%hataltitude you%ere at asto %hetheryou %ouldget an 'Aor not#

Typi"ally,for

air"raftflying le6elbelo%F...ft,seperationof

15may10 v9

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