112- destroying food dogma with food agnostic culinary ...just, you know, what kind of like guilty...

Copyright © 2017 Wellness Mama · All Rights Reserved

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Episode112:DestroyingFoodDogmawithFood

AgnosticCulinaryScientistAliBouzari


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Child:WelcometomyMommy’spodcast.

ThispodcastisbroughttoyoubyTheGoodKitchen.Haveyoueverwishedyoucouldhavedeliciousandhealthymealsonthetableinmereminutes?TheGoodKitchenanswersthatproblem.Sotheyprovidequalitysourcedmealsincludinghealthyschoollunchesrighttoyourdoor.Theirmeatsaregrassfedandpasturedandtheyusefreshlysourcedproduceaswell.Andtheydon’tjustsendyoutheingredientslikesomedeliveryservices.Theysendyouthefullyprepared,chefqualitymeals.Youcancheckthemoutatwellnessmama.com/go/goodkitchen

ThisepisodeisalsobroughttoyoubyPrimalKitchen,allthegoodkitchenstoday.It’sfoundedbymyfriend,MarkSissonandMark’sDailyApple.ThePrimalKitchenisnowmysourceforsomeofmyfavoritekitchenstaples.Soifyouhaven’ttriedtheirdeliciousavocadooilmayo,includingtheirchipotlemayo,youareseriouslymissingout.Ihavemademyownmayoforyearsandyearsbecausetherewereneveranygoodoptionstobuythatdidn’thavevegetableoilsinthemandnowthereare.PrimalKitchenhascompletelychangedthatwiththeirproducts.Theyalsohavesomedeliciouspre-madesaladdressingsandweusetheirproductsallthetime.Youcancheckthemoutatprimalblueprint.comandifyouusethecodewellnessmamayouget10%offanyorder.

Katie:WelcometoTheHealthyMomspodcast.I'mKatiefromwellnessmama.com.Andtoday'sguestisgoingtobearealtreat,andthere'salittlebitofapunintended.AliBouzariisaculinaryscientist,anauthor,aneducator,andheco-foundedacompanycalledPilotR&D,whichisaculinaryresearchanddevelopmentcompany.AndImetAlirecently.AndIheardapresentationofhisandwasabsolutelyblownaway.SoasachefwithaPh.D.infoodbiochemistry,hehashelpedtoreallyleadthechargeinchangingthewaywethinkaboutcookingbyteachinganddevelopingcurriculumattopuniversitiesandIvyLeagueschoolsandeventheCulinaryInstituteofAmerica.Andhehasworkedwithmanytop-levelchefs.Andhenowactuallyhelpscompaniesdevelopfood.Sowelcome,Ali.Thanksforbeinghere.Ali:Thanks,Katie.Goodtotalktoyou.Katie:It'sgonnabefun.SoImustadmitIfirstsawyournameonthelunchtimeslotofascheduleataconference,anditwassomethingalongthelinesofitwasgonnadealwithfoodscience.AndI'lladmitthatIrolledmyeyesalittlebitandfiguredthatmightnotbethemostinterestingoftopic,andIwillalsoadmitthatIwas100%wrong,becauseyourpresentationwasprobablyoneofthemostfascinatingI'veheardinalongtime.AndI'mhopingwecantranslateallthosetopicsfromthePowerPointpresentationyouhadintoaudioonlysothateverybodylisteningcanbenefit.Sotostart,let'sbreakthroughsomeofthedogmaaroundfood.Yousaythatyouarefood-agnostic.Canyouexplainwhatthatmeans?Ali:Yeah.Andtoyourfirstthoughtofhowunsexythephrase"foodscience"sounds,Idon'tblameyouatallfornotbeingexcitedabouttheprospectofsomethingdescribedthatway.Andwhenwetalkaboutfoodscienceasaphrase,foodscienceasafieldcameoutofbasically,WorldWarIIwhere,allofasudden,wewerefiguringouthowtofeedmassivenumbersofpeoplefromcentralizedhubsinordertocopewithindustrialpostwarworld.Andsoalotoffoodsciencewasgearedtowardshowdowemakefoodthatlastsalongtimesoitdoesn'tspoilandhowdowebeabletodistributefoodalloverthecountryandallovertheworldinawaythatdoesn'tkillpeople?Sofoodsciencesortofveryquicklybecamethescienceoflikepotatochipsandcannedtomatoes.Andwhat's


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unfortunateisthatstudy,it'sopenedupsomanyamazingthingsthatweknownowabouthowfoodworksandhowfoodbecomesdeliciousandhowyoucancookanything.Butthefieldoffoodsciencehasstillstayedgroundedinthelikebig-retail-industrial-food-complexkindofawayoflookingatfood.Andcomingfromabackgroundofbeingachefandworkinginthese,youknow,amazingfinediningortoprestaurantsaroundtheworld,foodhasalwaysbeenmoreofavibrant,dynamic,deliciousthingratherthanaproblemtobesolved.SowhenIsaythatI'mfood-agnosticornutrition-agnostic,itmeansthatIwilleatanythingthat'sgood.Iwilleatanythingthat'sdelicious,whetherit's,youknowinsanefive-hourtastingmenuatthree-Michelin-starrestaurantorit'sreally,reallygoodtacosoutofthebackofatruckorit'slikethebest,youknow,earlyseasonstonefruitfromwhereIliveinSonomaCounty.Iwilleatanything.Andsincemyjobisalotofdevelopingrecipesandrestaurantideasandfoodproductideasforotherpeople,forothercompanies,our…myandmypartner'sgoalistoplayinwhateversandboxthatourclientcreates.Youknow,ifsomebodyistryingtoavoidglutenorifsomebodyistryingtofocusonplantfoodsorifsomebodyreally,reallybelievesthatforthemhigh-protein,low-carbisthetypeoffoodthattheywannaeat,wecanmakeanythingtastegoodwithourapproachtofood.So,yeah,ourfocusisyoutelluswhatyouneed,andwewillmakeitenjoyable.Katie:Yeah,it'ssocool.Solet'sdelveintothat,howyouthinkoffooddifferentlythanmostpeople,becauseIthinkalotofusthinkoffoodintermsof,unfortunately,alotofpeople,likegoodandbad,orthere'salotofguiltaroundcertainfoodsorcertaintypesoffood.Orotherpeoplethinkoffoodveryutilitarianinbroadcategorieslikemacros.There'sprotein,fat,andcarbs,andthatit.Andyoureallyopenedupanentirelydifferentsideoffoodwiththebiochemical.Solet'stalkthroughthat.Howdoyouthinkoffooddifferentlythantherestofus?Ali:Wecallourfield,ourmethodology,wecallitculinaryscience,whichisbasicallytakingalloftheamazingscience,thatfoundationofknowledgethatpeoplehavecreatedover,youknow,morethanhalfacenturystudyingfoodandfunnelingitintoactual,realfoodratherthanthingsthatareonlyproducedbytouchingstainlesssteel.Sothewaythatthatworksisbyhavingafootgroundedintwoworldsequally,theworldofthechefassomebodywho…Idon'tthinkthere'sanybodyouttherewhohasbetterhands-on,justgutinstinctswhenitcomestohowfoodworks,howtomakefooddelicious,howtomakefoodwholesome.Andthenalsopairthatwiththevisionandtheunderstandingofascientistwhocanseeallofthecomponentsoffoodandhowtheyfittogetherandunderstandalloftheunderlyingpatterns.Soweliketotalkaboutfoodassortofapictureinpicture,right?Ifyouimaginelikemacroscopicandmicroscopicatthesametime,you'reholdingamangoandyou'reeatingthatmangoandyou'relike,"Wow,thismangoisincrediblyjuicy.It'ssupersweet.It'sgotalotofniceacidity.It'sgotalotofgreataroma.Icanfeelallthefibersgettingstuckinmyteeth,"justeverythingthatgoesintoeatingamango,thereisawaythatweapproachfoodthatinvolvesunderstandinghowthatmangoissweet,howthataromaissopleasing,howthemangogotthatbeautifulbrightorange-yellowcolorthatdoesn'trequireabunchofweirdcomplexchemicalnames,doesn'trequirememorizingabunchofformulas.Anditwasfunnywhenyoumentionedpeoplewhotakeaveryutilitariansortofbasicviewoffood,lookingatjustmacros,lookingat"Whatdoesthishaveintermsofproteins,water,sugars,complexcarbs,lipids,etc."Forus,what'samazingisthoseexactsamebuildingblocksthatarealreadyintheculturalconversationandareoftentimesthethingthatwefeelreallyguiltyorproudofwhenwelookatthebackofapackage,thosesame


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fundamentalmacrocomponents,thosemacronutrients,thebuildingblocksoffoodarethethingsthatalsodictatewhetherfoodisgoingtotastegoodorwhetherit'sgoingtobecrispyorwhetherit'sgoingtobejuicyorwhetherit'sgonnahavealotofaroma.Thosethingsthatyoureadonthebackofanutrientlabelaren'tjust,youknow,whatkindoflikeguiltyconsciencedayyou'regonnahaveornot.Theyaretheactualrecipemakersforeverythingthatyou'llevercook,eat,orserveagain.Katie:Yeah.Solet'sgothroughsomeofthose.Ifeellikeyourunderstandingoffoodletyoucreatethesereallynovelwaysofusingthem.Andinyourpresentation,youtalkedaboutthingslikewatermelonseedsandhowthatcanbeusedinfoodorroastedredpeppersandallthesedifferentwaysthatwewouldjustconsiderthesemaybeaningredientinastirfry.Butyouactuallyusetheminbiochemicalwaysthatmakethemreallyinteresting.Sowhatarethosebuildingblocksthatarebrokendown,andhowcanweusethemdifferently?Ali:Yeah.Sothebasicideaofthiswayoflookingatfoodisthatliterallyeverything,fromapieceofcelerytoashrimporagluten-freemuffin,ismadeofjusteightdifferentbuildingblocks,water,sugars,complexcarbs,sothingslikestarchandpectinandsoon,proteins,lipid,minerals,gases,andheat.Heat,obviously,isn'taphysicalthing,butitplaysjustasmucharoleinmakingfoodwhatitisastheothers.Soeachofthoseseventhings,whicharealreadythingsthatwe'retalkingaboutwhenitcomestofood.Thecoolthingiseachofthemonlyhaslikeahandfuloftricks.Theyhavelikeauniversalpersonalitythattheyjust…theyexhibitthatpersonalityineverything.SowhatImeanbythatis…youknow,let'spicksugar.Sugaristhecurrentdemonofthedecade.Sugaristhethingthatwe'renow…asasocietythat'salwaysthinkingaboutthenexthealthtrendandthenexthealthfindings,sugaristheFreddyKruegerthat'sgonnapopoutofacanofcokeandkillus.Sugarisinterestingbecauseitdoesfivethingsinourfood.Itdoesthingslikehelpingtoretainwater.Itbreaksdownandbecomesbrownwhenthingscaramelizeandgetlikeroastybrowninanovenoronagrill.Sugariswhatmicrobesfermentforthemostpart.Sowhenyou'retalkingabouteverythingfrompicklestokombuchaorbeer,alotofthatiscomingfromsugarbeingbrokendownandsoon.Andtheinterestingthingissugardoesthosefivejobs,anditcanonlydothosefivejobs,anditdoesthosefivejobsinliterallyeverything.SowhatImeanbythatissugarisjustasimportanttoeatingastickofceleryasitistoeatinglikea32-gram-per-servingpopsicle.Sugarisatplayineverysinglefoodthatisoutthere.Anythingthatcanturnbrowninanoven,anythingthathasevenmildsweetnessiscomingfromsugar.AndI'mnotadvocatingthatpeopleeatatonofsugar.I'mjusttryingtogivepeopleX-rayvisiontoseethatsugar,evenintinyquantitiesindifferentfoods,playsasimilarsetofrules.Andsowhenyourealizethattheserulesare...they'renothingincrediblysciencey.It'snotsomethingthattakesgoingtoschooltolearn.It'snotsomethingthatyouhavetolearnawholenewvocabulary.Learningthat,forinstance,anytimeyouhavesugars,carbs,proteins,orlipidsorevengasesinyourfood,itwillhelptomake,justanexample,itwillhelpliquidsgetthicker.SowhatImeanbythatiswhenyoumakeasauceorwhenyoumakeabatterorwhenyou'rejustdrinkingabeverageandit'sthickerthanjustpurewater,thereasonit'sthickerisbecausethesugarsorthecarbsortheproteinsoreventhegasbubblesaregettinginwater'swayasitrollsaroundinyourmouthfrompointAtopointB.Soifyouzoomedinonjustapureglassofwater,waterisbasicallyjustshapedlikeamarble.Sowhenyouswirlitaroundonyourtongue,it'sjustrollingaroundfreely,anditfeelsthinbecausethatwatercanrollandsloshbackandforthprettyeasily.Whenyouput…whenyouthickengravywithcornstarchoralmondflourorwhateveryoumightbeusing,whatyou'redoingisyou'rethrowingabunchofcarbs,whicharelikeagiantfallentreebranches,inthewater'spath.So


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thatisit'stryingtorollaroundonyourspoonoronyourplateoreveninyourmouth.Ittakesalotlongertogetwhereit'sgoingbecauseofallofthoseobstacles.Andwhat'samazingis,okay,great,yeah,nowweknowhowcornstarchinThanksgivinggravyworks.Butthat'snotjustsomethingthat'sparticulartogravy.It'snotjustsomethingthat'sparticulartostarch.Thatishowthethickeningofeverythingworks.Solet'ssaythatyouareafanofdouble-churnedicecreambecausethatisaformoficecreamthatyoucanhavethat'ssupposedtohavelikehalfthecalories.It'ssupposedtohavehalfthesugarsandsoonandsoforth.Thewaythatdouble-churnedicecreambecameathingandmadesuchasplashonthemarketwasbecausetheytookoutabunchofsugar.Theytookout…Sometimes,honestly,theytakeoutsomeofthelikestabilizersandbindersandotherthickenersthatpeopledon'tliketoseeonalabel.Andtheyreplacedthethickeningpower.Theyreplacedthepowerofthosesugarsandcarbsandthingstomakestuffthickandcreamywithair,becausejustlikethefrothonthetopofabeeristhickerthanthebeerthat'sbelowit,youcanmakeicecreamthickerbychurningmorebubblesofgas,morebubblesofairintothaticecreambecausethosebubblesactuallyfilltheexactsameroleasthatlikefallentreebranchofacarbwoulddowherewaterisstilltryingtogetfrompointAtoPointB.It'stryingtoflow.It'stryingtomaketheicecreammeltandmovefromplacetoplace.Butthosegasbubblesaresortofcrowdingthespaceandmakingitharderforthingstomovearound,whichresultsinsomethingthatfeelsreallycreamy,eventhoughitmaybelowerfat,maybelowersugar,soonandsoforth.SowhatI'mtalkingaboutwiththeseexamplesisawayoflookingatfoodthatallofasuddenexposesallofthemovingpartssothatyoucanpickandchooseexactlywhatyouwannadowiththem.Whenyouweretalkingaboutwatermelonseedsjustnow,yeah,thatwasanexamplewediscussatthisretreat.Turnsoutwatermelonseedshaveatonofprotein.It'ssomethingthatIdon'tthinkanybodyhaslookedatbeforebecauseit's,Idon'tknow,it'scounterintuitivethatsomelittle,weird,dinky,whiteseedontheinsideofawatermelonwouldcarryatonofprotein,butitdoes.Ithasamassiveamountofproteincomparedtoactuallyalotoffoodsoutthere.AndwhatthatmeanstomeasachefandasapersonwiththissortofX-rayvisionapproachtofoodisthatnow,allofasudden,maybeifI'musingwatermelonseedsandIgrindthemintoaflour,maybethereispotentialforusingthatinamarinadetomakesomethingturnreallybeautifulgoldenbrownonagrill,ormaybethat'stheabilityformetohavealow-carbthickenerforasaladdressingratherthanhavingtousesomeemulsifierorhavingtousesomethinglikeeggsifIwantittobeaveganproduct.Itbasically,lookingatwhatthatwatermelonseedismadeof,turnsitfromjustaseedthat,youknow,mightnotreallybesuperexcitingintokindofatoolbox.Andthatisreallyourwayofapproachingfoodisthatalloftheseingredientsthatwecall"ingredients,"liketomatoorpeachorapieceofbeef,they'retoolboxesbuiltoutoftheseeightsortoflikemotheringredientsthat…whatwecallthe"Ingredients."AndunderstandinghowthoseIngredientsdotheseverysimpleuniversaltrickshelpsussortthroughthefactthat…Imean,justwalkingthroughtheWholeFoodsproduceaisleisamind-blowingandintimidatingthingnow.Andfindingthesepatternsthatconnectthingsreallyhelpstosimplifyandmakelifealoteasierforpeoplewhoarejusttryingtohavegoodfoodthatfitstheirlifestyle.Katie:Forsure.Andasyouweretalkinginyourpresentationoriginally,mymindwaslikegoingofftoalltheseideas,especiallyforthosewithallergies,becausewhenyoubrokedownthefoodstotheirbuildingblocks,into


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theircomponentsofwhattheydoinfood,likealotofpeoplethinkit'sreallyhardtosubstitute,forinstance,eggsbecausetheyhaveareallyspecificpurposeinfoods.Butifyoulookatlikethevarietyofthingseggsdoinarecipe,youbasicallycouldlikekindofessentiallypullthosebuildingblocksfromotheringredients,right?Ali:Right,exactly.Andlet'suseeggsasanexample,right?SoinSiliconValley,thereisthisamazinglike…AndImeanamazinginnotnecessarilyinthesenseofitbeinggood,butitis…itamazesonetowatchthisallhappen.Thereisthisgoldrushtomakemayonnaisewithouteggs,right?Ifsomebodywouldhavetoldusthatlike15yearsagothatthenewIPinSiliconValleywouldbehowtomakethebestveganmayonnaise,thatwouldbeanamazingconversationtohave.Butlet'ssayyou'rejusttryingtoavoideggs,andyouwanttomakesomelikecreamyspreadtogoontoasandwich,oryouwanttomakeaCaesarorranch-style,likecreamysaladdressing,butyoudon'twannahaveeggsintherecipe.Thereisnothingnecessarilyspecialaboutthoseeggsexceptthattheycontainsomefat.Theycontainsomelipidsthatmakeitniceandrich.Theycontainsomeproteinthatishelpingtokeepstableemulsion,youknow,keepoilandwatermixedtogethersothatitcanbecreamyandalsotothickenitsothatitcanbecreamy.Andyouknow,maybetheeggshavealittlebitofwater.Soit'sgotthosethreethings.It'sgotsomefats,someprotein,andsomewater.Well,ohmygosh,wecanfindthatinsomanydifferentfoods,andwecanuseitinsomanydifferentwaysdependingontheflavorofwhatwe'retryingtogetafter.Soinsteadofeggsinlikeamayo,youcoulduseroastedgarlicthatyouhadroastedinlikecoconutoil.Youcoulduseavocados.Youcouldusepureedokra.Youcouldusepureedroastedredpeppers.Youcouldusesun-driedtomatoesthatyoumashupwithamortarandpestle.Youcouldusehazelnutbutterifyouhadsomearound.Youcouldusepureedchickenliversifyouweregoingfor,youknow,somethingthatfeltsuperPaleo.Thepointistherearesomanydifferentwaystomakeeverything.Andwhatwe'retalkingaboutdoingofswappingthingsinandoutandgivingpeopletheabilitytocompensateforallergiesandavoidcertaintypesoffoodissomethingthefoodindustryhasdoneforever.It'sjustthethingsthatthey'vebeenswappingouthavebeentheselikepurified,isolatedcompoundswhere,insteadofusinghazelnutbuttertothickenasauceormakesomethingcreamyandthick,theywoulduselikerefinedhazelnutstarchthatthentheychoppedupintomuchtinypiecestomakehazelnutmaltodextrinorsomethinglikethatbecausetheywantedonlythethickeningpowerfromthathazelnut.Well,aschefsandashomecooks,weareluckytobeabletohavedeliciousthingslikeavocadosandhazelnutsthathavealotofgreataromaandcolorandothernutrientsthatcomewiththem.Sowhynotlearnhowtotaketheseexamplesfromthebiggerfoodindustryandsortofusethatpowerforgood.Youknow,whydon'tweusethismindsettobeabletoswaprealfoodsinandoutforwhatwewantsothatmaybe…ifyou'retryingtofigureouthowtocookthingsthatdon'tcontaingluten,maybenowthisisawayforpeopletobecomelessdependentonthoselike,youknow,mysteriousbagsofwhitepowderthattheygetfromahealthfoodstoreandsortoftaketheownershipbackoverwhattheycaneat.Katie:Yeah,that'ssuchacoolconceptbecause,asaculinaryscientist,you'reworkinginthisverycontrolledenvironment.Butasyouweretalking,IfoundmyselfthinkingofallthesewaysIcouldusethesamekindofideasandprinciplesineverydaycooking.Solet'sgoalittledeeperwiththat.Howcanwhatyou'redoingasaculinaryscientisthelpthehomecook?Andhowwouldyousuggestactuallyintegratingthesekindofconceptsintohomecooking?Ali:Well,Imean,sofortheshamelessplugmoment,Iwroteabookabouthowallofthisstuffworks.It's


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called"Ingredient."Andtheideawasbasically,eachoftheseeightbuildingblocksthatwe'retalkingabout,Igaveeachofthemachapter.Andratherthangothroughandlikegiveyoutheliketextbooklevelscienceofhowallofthesethingswork,IteamedupwithacomicbookartistandaNatGeophotographertobasicallyturnthebookintoanillustratedguidetogettingtoknowthepersonalitiesofeachoftheseIngredients.Soyoucanreadthroughtheproteinsbook,andyoucanseeallofthethingsthatproteinsdoforyoulaidoutinsupervividcoloralongwithexamplesofhow,youknow,shrimpcevicheisverysimilartopeanutbutter,isverysimilartoachiacracker,andhowproteinsarehelpingtofacilitateallofthosethingsbeingreallytasty.SotheideathereisthatIdidn'tputanyrecipesinthebook.Ididn'twanttotryto…Ididn'twanttotrytotellpeoplehowtheyshouldorshouldn'tcookbecausethethingthatI'venoticedfromworkingasachefandworkingwithsomanydifferenttypesofclientsintheindustryisthatnow,morethananytimeinhumanhistory,everybody'scookingalittlebitdifferentathome.Everybodyhasdifferentneedsbasedonwhattheycanandcan'thave,whattheirfamilydoesanddoesn'tlike,wheretheyliveinthecountry,whatseasonitis,and,youknow,amillionotherfactors.SowhatIwantedtodowasgivepeopleablueprintforcookinghowtheyliketoorhavetocook,butwiththelightsturnedon,inaway.Sowhenwe'retalkingaboutpeoplecookingathome,thisX-rayvisionissomethingthat,ifI'vedonemyjob,shouldnotaddanyextrastepstoyourday-to-daycookinglife.There'sbeenalot…Imeanthere'salotofreallygreatbookswrittenaboutthescienceoffoodandyouknow,makingthebestpossibleroastturkeyforThanksgivingandmaking,youknow,thegreatesteveravocadotoastandwhatever.Andalotofthatwritinginvolvesstoppingtoconsultthisperfectrecipe,followwhatareusuallyabunchofextrasteps,whichmake,youknow,thatrecipeallthemoredelicious,andbasicallypullingyourselfoutoftheflowofday-to-daylifeinordertothinkaboutthescienceoffood.ThewaythatIliketotalkaboutthisstuffisonalevelofjustthesamekindofintuitionthatweallhaveinourgutfromspreadingpeanutbutterontoastfor,youknow,threedecades.AndwhatImeanbythatisIthinktheexamplethatIgaveatthisretreatwas,"Thinkaboutwhenyou'resautéingonionsinapan.Everybody'sreally,reallyfamiliarwiththehissingsound,thatsssthatyougetwhenonionsaresortofhappilysautéingaway.Thereisapointwhenyou'resautéingonionswhenthathissingsoundturnsintoacracklingsound."Iaskedabunchofpeopleintheroom,unprompted,andallofyouguyssaid…whenIsaid,"Whenthathissturnstocrackle,whatdoyoudo?"everybodysaidsomeversionof,"Gooverandlookatthepan,shakeit,stirit,takeitofftheheat,whatever."Anditwasthisthingthatlikewedidn'thave…nobodyhadtoexplainthatthehissingdiesoffbecausewaterisgone.Whenwaterisgone,thetemperaturegoesup.Whenthetemperaturegoesup,proteinsandsugarsstarttobreakdown.Whenthoseproteinsandsugarsstarttobreakdown,theystarttocaramelize.Iftheybreakdowntoomuch,theystarttoburn.Nobodyactuallygoesthroughthatwholelineofthinking.AndIthinkIsaidinourtalklike,"Ifyouactuallydogothroughthatlineofthinking,youmightbeasociopath."ButwhatIwantedtodowasIwantedtocreateabunchofveryvisualwaysofjustunderstandingthoseconceptsinstinctively,tosortofoverlayalmostlikesmartphonenavigationontoyourgutinstinctsothatafterreadingthisbookorlearningthistypeofvisioninthekitchen,youcangothroughyourday.Andifyou'retryingtofollowarecipethatyourfriendgaveyouandreferredtoyouonline,youcanfollowthatrecipebetter.Ifyou'retryingtocomeupwithsomethingjustbasedonthefourthingsyouhaveinyourkitchenaftercomingbackfromaweekendvacation,you'llbeabletodothatmorefluidly.


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Ifyou'retryingtotakeyourfavoriterecipeandadjustitforsomebodywho'scomingoverwhocan'thavealliumsorisavoidingnightshadesordoesn'twantanythinganimalderivedintheirfood,allofasudden,thefeelingof,"Ohcrap,nowIhavetostartfromscratch,"or,"NowIhavetogoonlineandfindarecipethatisexactlythat,"startstodissipate.Itstartstofadeaway,andyoustarttotakealittlebitmoreofthereinsandfeelmoreconfidenceinbeingabletoexecutewhateveryourvisionis.Evenifyourvisionis"Iwanttospreadsomethingcreamyonthistoast,"somethingthatsimplecanbeaccomplishedwiththisliketerminatorvisionofbeingabletolookatfoodandjustunderstandwhatmakesitgoodorwhatmakesitbadandhowtoworkaroundthataccordingtoyourhouseholdrules.Katie:Yeah.AndI'llecho…I'mdefinitely…There'salinktothebookintheshownotes.It'savailableinmostbookstoresaswell.Butit'sabsolutelybeautifulandsuperfascinating.Infact,it'sbeenafunbooktolookthroughwithmykids,becauseit'salsokindofanintrointofoodscienceandunderstandingthesethingsbutinareallyvisuallygorgeousway.Sothankyouforwritingit.It'sbeautiful.Ialsowannatouchon…soyouhaveadifferentperspectiveonfoodadditivesand"chemicals"thanalotofusdo.Andthere'skindofareactiontoalltheseunnaturaladditivesinfoodthatyou'vementionedandthingslikecarrageenanornitratesinbacon,etc.Andyouhavesomeinterestingpointsonthisaswell.Sofirstofall,likewhyarethosenecessarilynotasbadaswethinkinsomecases?Andalsohowareyouguysgettingaroundthemwithcreativeways?Ali:Well,sothereis…IthinkonethingtojusttouchoninmyheadiswhetherornotIthinkthatlikefrombeingabiochemistandalsojustahealthyguy,whetherornotIthinksomethingishealthyshouldn'tnecessarilyhaveatonofbearingonwhateveryoneelsethinks.Imeantheonelessonthatwe'recomingawayfromthiswholeera,thisreallylikedynamic,interestingerainourculturalrelationshipwithfoodisthat"differentstrokesfordifferentfolks"reallyholdstrue.Imeantherearepersonalizeddietnutritionthat'sgoingtobethewaveofthefuture.Sothatsaid,Idothinkthattherearecertaintimesinourculturewherewe'rewillingtoturnablindeyetowhat'sgoingoninfoodbecauseofhowit'sbeenmarketed,becauseofstoriesthatwemayormaynothavereadon,youknow,Upworthyorwhateveritmightbe.Asageneralrule,Istayawayfromthingslikebenzoatesandpreservativesthatareexpresslyincludedinfoodtokillstuff,tokillmicrobes.Forme,justasageneralrule,anycompoundthatitslikepurposeistopreventthegrowthoflifeonearth,like,okay,Icanprobablydowithoutthatinmyfood.Intermsofliketexturemodification,let'stalkaboutthat,sotherearealotofclientsweworkwiththattheydon'twantcorn,theydon'twantsoy.Butmaybethey'reokaywithliketapioca,iftherehastobesomethingstarchy.Thoseclientsareusuallyreally,reallyaversetotheideaofusingtapiocastarch.Theydon'twantsomethingthatseemslikeit'sbeenrefinedandprocessedandisolated.Buttheywouldbetotallyfineusingtapiocaflour.Nowforme,Iseezerodifference.Imeanintermsofthestarchthat'sinthattapiocaflourversusthestarchthat'sbeenpulledoutofthattapiocaflour,notatonofdifference.Butwhensomebodylooksonalabelandtheyseethattheingredientsarealmonds,tapioca,honey,andcarrots,that'saverydifferentstorythaniftheylookonthelabelandtheyseealmonds,tapiocastarchortapiocamaltodextrin,honey,andcarrots.Thereisatendencyinourculturetothrowthebabyoutwiththebathwater.And,youknow,wehavefinally,whichIbelievethisisagreatthing,wehavefinallybecomeawakened.We'vebecomeconsciousaboutreadingthebackoflabelsandquestioningthingsthatwearen'tfamiliarwithandrightfullysobecausethestuffthat,youknow,ourparents'generationwaseatinginthe'50sand'60swasprobablyatrocious.


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Thatsaid,noteverythingthatis…noteverythingthatdoesn'tsoundlikejustacarrotorjustaplumisnecessarilygonnakillus.Butthethingthatwefoundisthatthatdoesn'tmatter.MypartnersandI,inwhatwedo,we'recalledonalotbycompaniesandpublicationsandwhatnottodoliketrendforecasting,figureout,"Oh,youknow,what'sgonnabethenewspiceblendthat'sgonnabebiginthreeyears?"Orifwe'reveryanti-sugarnowandwe'reveryanti-fatinthe'90s,what'sgonnathenextthingthatweneedtoavoid?Sothosetrendsaresortofamerry-go-round.Andmylike…myhotstocktipwouldbethatwithinthenext10years,we'reprobablygonnastartfindingpeoplehavingsomegastricproblemswithalltheproteinthatwe'reeatinginoursortofproteincrazerightnow.Andsothependulumwillswingbacktowards,youknow,areasonableamountofprotein,areasonableamountofsugar,areasonableamountoffatandcarbs,andjustfindingbalance.TheonefoodtrendthatIthinkisactuallytrend-proof,thatisnevergonnagoawayiswhatwe'retalkingaboutherethatpeoplearealwaysgonnafeelakneejerkreactionofdistrustforstuffthattheycan'tunderstandonafoodlabel.Youknow,asanti-carbaswewereintheheightoftheAtkinscraze,itwasstillreallyhardtomakealogicaldiscussionaboutwhylikeapotatowasgonnakillus.Attheendoftheday,it'sstillapotato.Itgrowsintheground.We'vebeeneatingitforcenturies.Andthatmindsetisreallyourapproachto"chemicals"infood.Whenyou'retalkingaboutnitratesasathingthatisasyntheticcompoundthat'saddedtobacontomakeithaveit'sbaconyflavorandpreserveit,thethingthatisgoingononalmosteverypackageofbacon,hotdogs,orevenlikepastramithatislabeledasuncured,you'llseethat.Imeanonceyoustartlookingforthat,youwillseeiteverywhere.Everythingthat'suncured,ifyouflipthatpackageover,itusuallycontainsontheingredientlabelcelerypowderorceleryjuiceorjustcelery,sometimes.Well,whathappensisceleryasaplantnaturallyfixes.Itgrabsontonitrateandnitritefromthesoil.Anditaccumulatesthat.Itlikestoresitupinthecelerystalkssothatifyoujustneedtogetsomeofthefunctionofnitrateintoyourbacontomakeittastelikebaconandmakeitworklikebacon,youcanactuallygetthatpowerstraightfromthecelery.Similarly,youknow,inchickenbreaststhatyoubuyinstoresalotoftimes,inordertokeepthatchickenbreastfromdryingoutontheshelves,meatmanufacturers,goingwaybackto,again,the'40sand'50s,havebeenaddingphosphatesaltstothosechickento…Phosphatebasicallybindswater.It'samineralthatbindswaterreallywell.Soitkeepsthosechickenbreastsplumpandjuicyand,honestly,probablyletsthemeatpurveyorssellyoumorewaterperpoundthanchicken.Sothatisanotherthing.Phosphateisanotherthingthatpeoplearetryingtoavoid.Interestinglyenough,phosphatesarefoundinsuperhighquantitiesinraisinsandprunesandplums.SoweworkedonaprojectrecentlywherewewereworkingonsortoflikeaTurkishstylelikerotisseriemeatkindofrestaurant.Andtheywantedittoallbesupercleanlabel,superwholefood.Soratherthanusingphosphates,likesomewhitemineralpowdertokeepwaterinthatmeat,weusedprunepaste,whichendeduphavingverymuchthesameeffectaswewouldhavegottenifwewouldhavejustaddedtheisolated"chemical."Andtherearestoriesaboutthatallovertheindustrywhere,youknow,carrageenanandalginateandalloftheselikecarbthickenersthatpeoplearereally,reallyworriedabout,thosewereoriginallyisolatedfromseaweed.Liketheywere…theyarethecarbsthathelpseaweedflaparoundinthesuperturbulentsurfintheoceanwithoutbreaking.Ithelpsthembendbutnotbreak.Andsowe'relike,"Allright,ifwe'regonnamake…let'ssaywe'regonnamakelikeasavorygranolathatis


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gonnabelikesortoflikeaJapaneseflavorprofile,whywouldwegoanduselikesomeweirdsyrupthatcarriesalotofsugarandallthesesortsofthingswhenwecouldjustusetheseaweed,thestickyseaweeditself?"Ifthere'salreadygonnabetoastednoriintheflavorprofileforthisgranola,whydon'tweusethatnoriandallofthatnaturalthickeningpowerthatithastobindthethingupinthefirstplaceanduseawholefoodthewaythatpeoplehavetraditionallybeenusingtheseisolated"chemicals"?Andohmygosh,thetrendcontinues.AndwiththissortofX-rayvisionthatwetalkabout,youcankindofdoitforeverything.Ifyouneedanantioxidantinyourfood,alotoftimes,peoplewillputvitaminCorascorbicacidonalabel.You'llseethatineverythingfromgreendrinkstolikeraisinbread.Thatascorbicacidkeepsfatsfrombreakingdownwhenthey'reexposedtolightandairandjusttimeonashelf.Ratherthangettingthatascorbicacidinlikeisolatedwhitepowder,again,youcangetitfromacherry.There'sactuallyatypeofSouthAmericancherrycalledanacerolacherrythat,naturally,ifyoulike…ifyoujustdehydratedit,ifyoutookallthewaterout,thedry,thesolidsthatareleftover,it'ssomethingridiculouslike30%vitaminCorsomethinglikethat.Andsopeopleareaddingcherrypowdertotheirguacamoletokeepitfromturninggreeniftheywannatakeittoafarmer'smarket.Andwhetherornotlikeascorbicacidinpowderformorincherryformisactuallygonnahurtus,listen,Idon'tthinkso,butallIcareaboutismakingpeoplehappyandgivingthemthefoodthattheywantinawaythatmakesthemfeellikethey'relivingtheirhealthiestlifestyle.SoifIcanaccomplishthatwithjustusingcherriesinsteadofsomethingIwouldorderfroma"chemical"company,I'mhappytodoso.Andit'sareallyexcitingfrontierinthewaythatourfoodisbeingmadethatisfacilitatedbyunderstandingfoodfromacheffyandscienceyperspectiveatthesametime.Katie:Itissofascinating.SoyourunPilotR&D,whichisthecompanywhereyoudoresearchanddevelopmentwithfood.Canyoutalkthroughwhatliketheday-to-daylookslikeforyou?Whatdoesfoodsciencelooklikeonaneverydaybasis?Ali:Yeah.SoPilot…there'sfourofusthatfoundedPilot.AndmypartnersandIallsharethisveryinterestingandveryuniquebackgroundofhavingdoneR&Dforchefsatthehighestlevel.Sowe'veworkedatplacesliketheFrenchLaundryandDaveChang'sMomofukurestaurantsinNewYork.Andalloftheseamazingrestaurants,thethingtheyshareincommonistheygottacomeupwithcool,newstuffinahurry.Ifyougotooneoftheserestaurants,youarelikelygettingabrandnewmenu,abrandnewexperiencethatdaybecauseofhowmuchpressurethesechefsareundertotakethebestqualityproduceandmeatandseafoodandeverythingandturnitintoamindblowingexperience.Sowehadexperiencerunningtheenginesthatwouldhelptoputnewthingsonthosemenusasquicklyaspossibleandwithasmuchflavorandasmuchimpactaspossible.Andoneofthethingsthatwerealizedwas,thisisamazing.Likewehavetoturnoveranentiremenuof47differentthingsinamatterofafewweeksorsometimesdaysorsometimeshours.Andyet,youknow,peoplearetakingfivetosevenyearstogetlikethefirsthummustomarket.Youknow,likewhenhummuscaughtonorwhenGreekyogurthappenedorwhenweallfellinlovewithcoconutwaterandkombucha,thosewerefoodtrendsthattookyearsoftricklingdownandrefiningandfiguringouthowtogetitontoashelf.SothefunctionofPilotisforustosay,"Okay,we'vegotalotofexperiencedoingthisforrestaurantswhereit'sgonnaserve50peopleanight.Withourknowledgeofthescienceoffood,canweusethattoexpandourreachtoworkonhealthy,deliciousfoodforthemasspopulace,whetherthat'ssomethingthat'sgonnabe


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designingaretailproductorhelpingamealdeliveryservicedowhattheydobetterorhelpingpeoplejustgeneraterecipesandapplicationsforallofthesewonderfulnewingredientsthatwe'refinding?Pilotisbasicallyacreativeenginethatcanbehitchedtoanynumberofthings.Andrightnow,Imeanweworkon…Probablyabout70%ofourprojectsarelikeretailproducts.AndI'dsay,ofthoseprojects,thevastmajorityistheselikenewhealthywholefoodtypeofproducts.Sowe'relookingatmakingnewoptionsforsnackfoodsthatarebasedoutof…basedonmostlyplantsthatdon'ttastelikeflavorlessveggiechips.We'reworkingonnewoptionsforbeveragesthatdon'thave,youknow,the30gramspercanofsugarthatsodasdo,butalsoaren'tquitethelikeLaCroix,justseltzerwaterplusnaturalflavors,wherewe'reworkingonlikemiddlegroundstocolorinallthegapsthatwethinkareleftbehindby,youknow,kombucha,whichthereareacoupleofbrandsthattastegreat.TherestofitIthinkiscrap.Youknow,asapopulation,wearesophisticatedenoughthatthere'snoreasonthateatinghealthyhastotastelikecompromise.Andalotofwhatwedoisweworkwithreallyexcitingentrepreneursandsmallandmediumandevenhugecompaniesondesigningfoodsthatleanintothenaturaltendencyofwhatthosefoodsare.Ifsomethingwantstobecrispy,don'ttrytomakeitchewywithabunchoffakeingredients.Makethecrispinessshinethroughinawaythatfeelsnatural.Orifsomething…ifyouwanttohavesomethingthatgoesonashelfandhangsoutforsixmonthsatWholeFoods,probablynotthebestideatotrytomakethatthinggreenjustbecausegreenfoodsturnbrown.Andtheonlywaythatweknowoftomakegreenfoodsnotturnbrownoverthecourseofmonthsinaretailsettingistoaddartificialcolors.Andsincewedon'twannadothat,wewouldrathermakesomethingthatwasreallydeliciousandpurple.So,yeah,weworkwithalotofdifferentpeople,bigandsmall.Weworkwithstartupswhoarejust,amanorawomanwhoischangingcareersandthey'vedonebeinginfinanceorcorporatewellness,orthey'redoneplayingbaseball,andtheyhaveareallygreatideaforaproteinbarorasnackorasauceorabeverage,ortheywannaopenarestaurant.Wehelpthosepeoplemakeeverythingtodowiththefoodtastereallygoodwithinthehealthandnutritionalvisionthattheyhaveforthatbrand.Katie:That'ssocool.I'msureyouprobablyhavenondisclosureforsomeofthem,butwhathavebeensomeofyourfavoriteprojectstoworkon?Andhadtherebeenanythatyoujustcouldnotcrackthecode,andyouhadtosaylike,"Thisisimpossiblethewayyouwantit"?Ali:Actually,onethatwe'vetalkedaboutwetalkedaboutafairbitatthatretreat.Oneofourfavoriteclientsaretheseguys,haveacompanycalledKettle&Fire.Soit'stwobrothers,twobrotherswhoIthinkalsohavelikefourorfiveotherbrothers.Buttwooftheirbroodwentintobusinesstogethertomakereally,reallyhigh-quality,deliciousbonebroth.And,youknow,theytakewholeingredients.Theysimmerthemforalongtime.Theystrainit.Andthentheyhavecomeupwithsomereallyinterestingwaysofpackagingitsothatthequalityofthatproductshinesthroughevenonashelf.Theycametous.AndI'llnotdiveintospecificsyet,butsufficetosaythatyouguysoutthereintheworldwillbeabletotastethisstuffprettysoon.We'veworkedwiththemonsaying,"Great.Here'saproductthatisarealsuccess.What'sthenextstep?What'sthenextlineofstuffthatyouguyscando?"Andalotofwhatwe'vebeendoinghavebeenlookingatwhatthisbonebrothmanufacturingentails,likewhat'sleftover?Whatareotherpartsoftheanimalthatmaybearen'tgettingusedthatcouldsothatwecanmakesomethingsuperdelicious,yeah,butalsocreatelesswaste,alsomakesomethingthat'smore,youknow,sustainable,moreenvironmentallyfriendly,lookingatwhatwe'restartingtocalllikenose-to-tailCPG,


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likenose-to-tailretailfoodswhere…Chefshavebeendoingthisinrestaurantsforever.They'llorderlikewholeducksorwhatever,andthey'llusethebonesforonething.They'lluseallofthejointsandconnectivetissueforonething.They'llusethemeatfordifferentpurposes.Whycan'twedothatforretailfood?AndsowiththeguysatKettle&Fire,we'reworkingonabunchofnew,excitingproductsthataregoingtoexplorethatideaofwhatcanwedoinaworldwherepeoplearewillingtotrydeliciouswholefoodsofabunchofdifferentstylesnow?Whatcanweputouttherethatpeoplehaven'tseenbeforethathasalotofotherfringebenefitsofaddressingsomeoftheseproblemsofwasteandsustainabilityandhealthandsoonandsoforth?Sothoseguysaregreat.WehaveworkedwithalotofpeopleinthissortofPaleospacelately.Onethingthat'sinterestingistherearealotof…there'salotofconventionalwisdomoutthereaboutthingsthatyoucanandcan'tdowithPaleoproducts.Andwereallyenjoychallengingthat,becausewhenyoulookatsomethinglikeacoconut,man,thearticlethatyouguyshaveupofeverythingyoucandowithcoconutoil,itwas…it'samazingtoseethatbecauseofhowversatiletheseplantsare.Andwe'redigginginwithalotofourclientsintocrackingthecodeofacoconut.Likewhatareallofthetricksthatacoconutcando?Howfarcanwestretchittodoreallyamazingthingsintermsofmakinguniquetexturesandmakinguniqueflavorsandgivingpeoplereallydeliciousfoodthatfitthenutritionalrequirementsthatthey'retryingtohit?Katie:AndIlovethatyousaid70%ofthepeoplewhoarecomingtoyouareintherealfoodandhealthspace,whichisexciting.Itobviouslymeans,hopefully,thistrendisnotatrendandisheretostaywiththerealfoodingredients.Butthat'sreallycool,andI'mdefinitelyalsoafanofKettle&Fire.I'llmakesurewelinktothemintheshownotesaswell.Buttheirbrothisamazing.I'vegotabunchinmykitchen.Andmyhusbandhadsurgerythisweek,sohe'sdrinkingalotofitrightnow.Ali:Ohyeah,nothingbetter.

ThispodcastisbroughttoyoubyTheGoodKitchen.Haveyoueverwishedyoucouldhavedeliciousandhealthymealsonthetableinmereminutes?TheGoodKitchenanswersthatproblem.Sotheyprovidequalitysourcedmealsincludinghealthyschoollunchesrighttoyourdoor.Theirmeatsaregrassfedandpasturedandtheyusefreshlysourcedproduceaswell.Andtheydon’tjustsendyoutheingredientslikesomedeliveryservices.Theysendyouthefullyprepared,chefqualitymeals.Youcancheckthemoutatwellnessmama.com/go/goodkitchen

ThisepisodeisalsobroughttoyoubyPrimalKitchen,allthegoodkitchenstoday.It’sfoundedbymyfriend,MarkSissonandMark’sDailyApple.ThePrimalKitchenisnowmysourceforsomeofmyfavoritekitchenstaples.Soifyouhaven’ttriedtheirdeliciousavocadooilmayo,includingtheirchipotlemayo,youareseriouslymissingout.Ihavemademyownmayoforyearsandyearsbecausetherewereneveranygoodoptionstobuythatdidn’thavevegetableoilsinthemandnowthereare.PrimalKitchenhascompletelychangedthatwiththeirproducts.Theyalsohavesomedeliciouspre-madesaladdressingsandweusetheirproductsallthetime.Youcancheckthemoutatprimalblueprint.comandifyouusethecodewellnessmamayouget10%offanyorder.

Katie:Yeah.SodefinitelyIwouldencouragepeopletocheckoutyourbook,whichiscalled"Ingredient:


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UnveilingtheEssentialElementsofFood."LikeIsaid,it'ssuperfascinatingandreallyfuneventoreadwithyourkidsbecauseyoubothwilllearnsomuchfromit.Butwhereelsecanpeoplefindyou?Ali:TheycanfindmeonTwitterandInstagram.Ihaveasuperweird,unique,Iranianname.SoI'mveryeasytofind,@AliBouzarionTwitterand@bouzarialionInstagram.TheycanfindusthroughthePilotR&Dwebsitewhichisjustpilotrd.com.Imeanmorepeoplethaneverhavecoolideasforfoodproducts.Sowewouldlovetotalkaboutthat.Yeah,thosetwowouldbesuperfun.Iactuallyjust,thislastweekend,gottolivealifelongdream,andIgottobeaguestjudgeonIronChef.Katie:That’sawesome.Ali:Yeah.Sotheycouldwatchthatiftheywant.ButtheonelastthingthatIwouldsayaboutthebookisifyouwerethepersonthatwasreallyinterestedinchemistryandbiologyandstuffinhighschool,like,obviously,you'regonnabeintoreadinganythingaboutthescienceofhowfoodworks.Ifyouwereapersonwhosciencehasjustneverclickedwithyouorifyou'vejustneverhadtimetodigintoitorifitjustboresyou,Iwouldstillbecuriouswhatyouthinkbecausethisis…Imean,Katie,tellmeifyoudisagree,butthiswaswrittentobehumanspeakwiththetypeofillustrationsthatcanengageyouandmakeyouunderstandthisstuffjustinthesametypeofwayasifIwasexplainingittosomebodyonapodcastorinabar.It'snotmeanttobeareturntochemistryclass.And,yeah,theillustratorwhodidalloftheamazingrenderingsinthisthingisafantastictalent.HisnameisJeffDelierre.AndImeanhedoescomicbooksandcartoons.Soit'shisjobtotellstoriesvisually.Anditdefinitelyisnotadenseread,andit'ssomethingthatyoucanprobablytackleinacoupleofweekends.Katie:Forsure.Yeah,itdefinitelydoesnotseemoverlysciencey.Ithoughtitwasactuallyafascinatingread.Anditopensupthiswholeothersideoffoodthatalotofusneverthinkabout.AndsoI'vebeentryingtofigureoutwaystointegratethat,even…ImeanIobviouslycookalotandhavealotofrecipesofmyown.Butgoingforward,withnewrecipesandjustcookingathome,evenwithoutthe…developingnewproducts,it'sfascinatingwhenyoustartthinkinginthatway,allthethingsyoucandoinyourhomekitchen.Sotowrapup,likewhatencouragementwouldyougivetothehomecook,especially,Ihearalotofwomenwhodon'tthinkthey'regreatcooksorthinkthatthey'rejustnotverygoodatitortheyneverlearnedit?Whatwouldbeyourencouragementtopeoplewhenitcomestofoodandcookingandtryingnewthings?Ali:Iwouldsaythatthereisalevelthatyou'llgetto.Ithinkgoingfromthefirsttimeyouturnontoastovetothefirsttimeyou'vemadesomethingthatyouenjoy,thatisprobablythebiggesthurdle.Therearesomegrowingpainsthere.Therearesomemomentswhereyou'llhaveacatastrophicfailure,andthat'stotallyfine.There'sthisamazingthingthathappensthatthebestwayIcanequateitisifpeoplegotothegymandthey'relikelearningtodosquatsorsomething,thereisamomentineverybody'slikefitnessprogressionwhereyou'velearnedhowtodoanewexercise,andthere’sinlike,withinaweek,you'lldoubleortripletheamountofweightorthelengthoftimethatyoucangodoingthatexercisejustbecauseyou'vesortoffiguredouthowyourbodyisputtogether,andyou'vefiguredouthowtodoitwithoutcrushingyourself.Thereisananalogousthingincookingwhereafter…Honestly,anditcanhappen,likeacoupleofdays,ifyoujustsitdownandyoutrytogetasenseofhowhotyourstoveisand,likethissoundsstupid,buthowsaltyyoursaltis,justbeingabletotastelikeapinchofsaltandseereallyhowmuchsaltthatisaddingtoyourfood,justfiguringoutlikeacoupleofthebasics.Onceyougetpastthatbasicpoint,thereisalevelthatyoucanachieveveryquicklywhereyou'reconversationalincooking.Andbylearningthelanguageofhowthisstuff


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works,andthat'soneofthebigbenefitsthat…whenwe'retalkingaboutseeingthepatternsinfood,justsaying,"Oh,okay,Iknownowhowstuffburns.Iknownowhowstuffbeginstosmellbad.Iknownowhowstuffwilts.Iknownowhowstuffbecomestoodry."Ifyoustarttogetasenseofthoselikeuniversalpatterns,thenallyouhavetodoisjustfigureouthowtomakeonethingthat'sgood,andthenyoucanspinthatoffintoamilliondifferentdirections.Ifyou'vemasteredtheabilitytolikegrillasteak,thensomethingthatcanfeellikeawarmandfuzzy,reassuringblanketisthewaythatthatsteakgetsniceandbrownandblackontheoutsideandniceandjuicyontheinsideistheexactsameuniversal,youknow,lawsthatmakeagrilledtomatoworkoutormakeagrilledzucchiniworkout.Andyouknow,becauseyou'vecookedasteak,honestly,youknowalotmorethanyouthinkyouknowaboutcookingthenextthingonthatgrill.Becauseyoubaked,youknow,cakeorcookienumberone,therearethingsthatyou'vepickedupwithoutevenknowingit.There'sweaponsthatyou'veaddedtoyourarsenalthatwillmakethenextthingthatyoutrytocookaloteasierifyou'reshownwhichthingstopayattentionto.Andso,yeah,there'samillionthingsoutofthere.Andifwewerealltryingtogothroughlifelearningrecipebyrecipebyrecipeandgoingthrougheachstyleoffoodfromallovertheworld,nobodywouldevergettotheend.Thecoolthingisifyoujustsquareofftoitandareokaywiththeideaof,youknow,maybeacouple…thefirstweekthatyou'recooking,thingswon'tturnoutsupergreat,ormaybetheywill.Buteveniftheydon't,it'snottheendoftheworld.Afterthatfirstweek,thereisacrazygrowthspurtthatyourcookingskillscangothroughifyoujustsortofstarttogetasenseofthecurrentsofhowthingsmoveinyourfoodandstarttosee,"Oh,man,thisisjustthesamethingoverandoveragain,whetherit'sapeachoraplumorapieceofbacon.And,yeah,thatreassurancehasalwayshelpedme.AndIcookalotwithmyfamily.Andmymomandmysister…Ihaveayoungersisterwho'sincollege.Shefeelssomuchmoreincontrolof…ifshewantstotryanewrecipethatshegotinamagazineorifsheforgottopickupgarlicfromthestore,shefeelssomuchmorecapableofmakingsomethingthat'sgoodandfiguringoutwaysaroundthatlackofgarlicthanshedidbefore.Sothereishope.Thestakesaren'tallthathigh.Andthespeed,manthewaythatwecanlearnaboutfoodwithtoolslikeEpicuriousand,youknow,alltheseamazingresourcesthatareoutthere,it'salotquickertopickupthaniteverhasbeenbefore.Katie:It'strue.Andit'ssuchafascinatingnewwaytothinkaboutfoodaswell.SoIdefinitelywouldencourageeverybodytopickupyourbookandtojustdelveintoitandtolearnthatnewlanguagewhenitcomestofoodbecauseit'sbeenfascinatingformeinaboutamonthsinceIheardyourpresentation,justadaptingmyowncooking.SoIwouldencourageotherstodothataswell.But,Ali,thankyousomuchforbeinghere.Youaresuchawealthofknowledge,sofascinatingtohear.AndIreallyappreciateyousharingwithus.Ali:Yeah,likewise.Thisisablast.Thankyou.Katie:Absolutely.Andthankstoallofyouforlistening.I'llseeyounexttimeonTheHealthyMomspodcast.

Ifyou'reenjoyingtheseinterviews,wouldyoupleasetaketwominutestoleavearatingorreviewoniTunesforme?Doingthishelpsmorepeopletofindthepodcast,whichmeansevenmoremomsandfamiliescouldbenefitfromtheinformation.Ireallyappreciateyourtime,andthanksasalwaysforlistening.


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112- destroying food dogma with food agnostic culinary ...just, you know, what kind of like guilty...

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