1 in the united states district court … the united states district court for the northern district...
TRANSCRIPT
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IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURTFOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF INDIANA
HAMMOND DIVISION
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
vs.
MIDWEST SOLVENT RECOVERY, INC.,a corporation; MIDWEST INDUSTRIALWASTE DISPOSAL COMPANY, INC., acorporation; INDUSTRIAL TECTONICS, ) CIVIL ACTIONINCORPORATED, a corporation; V and E ) NO. H-79-556CORPORATION, a corporation; and )ERNEST DeHART, EDWARD D. CONLEY, )HELGA C. CONLEY, LOVZE DeHART,CHARLES A. LICBT, DAVID E. LICHT,DHLORES LICHT, EUGENE CLISIAX,JEANBTTE CLISIAK, LUTHER G. BLOOMBERG,ROBERT J. DAWSON, JR., VICTOR KIRSCB,JOHN KIRSCB, EVA KZRSCH, JOHN MILETICB,and MARY MILETICH, individuals.
Defendants,
ROBERT J. DAWSON, JR.,
Cross-Claiaant,
MIDWEST SOLVENT RECOVERY, INC.,a corporation; MIDWEST INDUSTRIALWASTE DISPOSAL COMPANY, INC., acorporation; INDUSTRIAL TECTONICS,INCORPORATED, a corporation; V and ECORPORATION, a corporation; andERNEST DeHART, EDWARD D. CONLEY,HELGA C. CONLEY, LOVIE DeHART,CHARLES A. LICHT, DAVID E. LICHT,DELORES LICHT, EUGENE CLISIAK,JEANETTE CLISIAX, LUTHER G. BLOOMBERG,VICTOR KIRSCH, JOHN KIRSCH, EVA KIRSCH,JOHN MILETICH, and MARY MILETICB, indi-viduals.
Defendants,
1 The deposition Of CHARLES A. LIGHT, adefendant in tha above entitled cause, called by the
2 plaintiff herein, pursuant to notice and pursuant tothe Proviaioni of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure
3 for the United States District Courts, taken beforeBrenda J. Cueller, a duly qualified and competent
4 court reporter at 507 State Street, Haanond, Indiana,on Friday, January 4, 1980, commencing at the hour
5 of 10:00 a .m.
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A P P E A A N C E S :
MR. ANDREW B. BAKER,Assistant U.S. Attorney,507 State Street,Hannoad, Indiana,
on behalf of plaintiff;
MR. DAVID E. LIGHT,280 Madison Avenue,Hew York, New Tork 10016
on behalf of defendantsCharles Licht, Delores Lichtand Industrial Tectonics.
ALSO PRESENT: Mr. Michael Berman,Environmental ProtectionAgency, Region Five,230 South Dearborn,Chicago, Illinois 60604
2A
CHARLES A. LIGHT
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a defendant, called as a witness by the plain-tiff herein, being first duly sworn to testifythe truth and nothing but the truth, deposethand saith as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATIONBy MX. Baker<
Would you state your name, please, sir?
Charles A. Licht, L-i-e-h-t.
In what city do you reside?
Olympia Fields, 0-1-y-m-p-i-a, Fields, Illinois.
And what is your occupation, sir?
I am a Counseling Engineer.
Are you self-employed or —
No. I'm employed by Charles Licht Engineering
Association as incorporated.
And where does that firm do business?
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&. At 414 West Lincoln Highway, Chicago Height*,
2 ft Are you involved in any other enterprise?
3 A. I'm also president of Industrial Tectonics,
4 T-e-c-t-o-n-i-c-s, Incorporated also based at
s the same addreas.
ft And what is the business of that firm, air?
7 A. The firm Industrial Tachtonics has two operations
8 within the corporate structure. One of the
9 operations an original operation was the design
10 and conatruotion of special machinery; and more
11 recently the aeeond division called the Chemical
12 Division waa set up to handle processing of
13 certain types of liquid waste.
And when waa Induatrial Techtonics incorporated?
15 MR. LICBTi Within the last five or six —
16 THE WITNESS: I think, it was October, 1969,
17 but I'm not positive of that.
And when was the Chemical Division created?
19 A. In October of 1977.
When did yon first cone up with the idea for the
21 creation of the Chemical Division within Industrial
22 Techtonioa?
23 A. During the spring of 1977. I can't tell you the
24 specific date, but some time in the spring of
25 1977, I was approached by two gentlemen who were —
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who at that time war* in liquid wast* in particular
acid waste disposal; and we discussed the possi-
bility of setting up within the Industrial Techton;cs
corporate shall a disposal operation that handled
paint sludges and other Material that had valuable
components for reclaim.
And who ware these two gentlemen?
One of them is Barold Eagan and the other is
Alfred Tenny, T-e-n-n-y.
Prior to this time, had yon been associated in
any business enterprises with either of those two
gentlemen?
I've known Tenny for quite a while. He had set
up his company at about the same time I set up
my Counseling Engineer company. They worked in
the area of water pollution control. We worked
pretty much in the area of air pollution and
solid waste management, and so, we would occasionally
use the services of their laboratories for cer-
tain types of work and also their engineering
staff, certain types of water pollution control
work.
MR. LIGHT: But yon are actually Independent
of them and independent of you?
THE WITNESS: Oh, yes.
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MR. BAKEHi Q What step* ware takan than
to bring on thi« idea into practice — raality?
Eagan had prior dealing* with a gentleman named
Ernie OeBart.
Op until thi« time in the apring of 1977 when
yon met with these two men, had yon met Erne*tDeHart?
No.
Bad any dealings with him?
Ho.
Or any of hia eorporationa?
Ho.
Did Mr. Bagan or did Mr. Tenny?
Ye*.
What happened?
Bagan brought to our attention the fact that
OeBart wa* interacted in veiling the operation
that he had. We indicated that we were not
particularly interested in buying hi* operation,
but since he wanted to leave the area for a
variety of rea*on* that we — well, let me atari
that over again.
When we met — when Eagan, Tenny,and I
met and di*cu**ed the pro* and con* going into
the liquid wa*te area other than that which hi*
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company was — Tenny's company was already in —
It was — we looked over — we looked at the
economics of this thin? and saw that it could be
a reasonably profitable operation if the technology
of the operation was dramatically improved; that
is, the paint sludges could be processed to re-
claim the solvent contents.
Was this essentially the operation of what OeHart
was doing?
No. All OeHart was doing was decanting the
light eads of the — in a drum of paint sludge,
there will be some fairly clean solvent at the
top, murkier material down toward the bottom,
and as taken down off this lighter solvent, I
could generate a resaleable, reclaimable component;
but he did no processing in there.
When did you first meet DeHart?
Around Labor Day of 1977.
And where did that meeting take place?
I don't remember.
Prior to this time, did you visit his site on
15th Avenue in Gary?
Ho. We did not see his site until after — after
I had met him.
Prior to this time. Labor Day of 1977, did you
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1 have any experience in the handling of paint
2 solvents residue disposal?
3 A. Yes.
4 £ What was that experience?
5 X Well, a number of our clients are in the steel
6 drum reclamation business, and they obtain drums
7 from various sources which contain varying amounts
8 of residual in these drums, and they run from
9 ounces to tons of fallons in any given drum. And
10 we were required that by one of our clients to
11 design a process for preeleaning the drums prior
12 to their incineration steps meant handling of
13 these liquid wastes, and for another client, we
14 were asked to develop some fundamentals for a
15 means to dispose of these materials by means of
16 incineration.
17 & You had no experience in reclaiming any material
is from solvents for sale, is that correct?
19 ». That's correct.
20 ft But that's what you intended to do with this
21 operation?
22 *• Yes. There is technology that appears to be
23 commercially available. He talked with two finis
24 three firms who manufacture stills of the type
25 that can be used in this type of material, and
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thay danonatratad to uo, not actual physical
demonstration, but in corraapondenca and litaratnrd
and in a variety of presentations that thay had
tha coapatant technology to handla this material.
Okay.
MR. LICET: Excuse ae. Mr. Baker, whan yon
mentioned experience, had Mr. Licht baan involved
in tha actual doing of it aa compared to having
tha aaginaaring technical knowledge for it?
MR. BAKERt I Meant experience rather than
knowledge — soae technical knowledge.
MR. LICHTi Doing right?
MS. BAKZRi That's correct.
Q What steps did you take to implement
this business prior with meeting DeHart in businean
in 1977?
He had taken no steps at that point because we
were not aura just where this was taking was to,
and we had -- I had dona some research to the
extant of finding out whether this technology
we were discussing aaongst ourselves was reasonable
feasible, and so forth, and this I had dona. But
up to that point, we had dona nothing in a business.
sense.
What transpired at the Labor Day meeting of 1977?
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I can't tell you on a day by day basis, Mr. Baker.
I don't recollect. I can tell you what happened
between Labor Day and the time we actually bought
a customer list front DeHart.
As best as you can recall, I would like to have
your --
I don't remember any one day.
— the conversations.
I don't remember the conversations on a day by
day basis.
Bow long did you meet him over a period of time?
Two or three t.imes.
Okay. Can yon relate to us as best you can what
occurred then in your various talks with him?
We met with DeHart to talk over the possibility
of obtaining from him a list of customers BO
that we could set op a process where we would
reclaim solvents on a distillation basis, which
was entirely different process than he had
operating. And where he had access to the sources,
we felt would be of great benefit to us to have
the entree into the sources for these materials.
MR. LIGHT: You mean, those persons who
had —
MR. BAKER: Customer list?
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MR. LICET: Yes.
THE WITNESSt Basically, since the consent
of the technology we had in mind was no different
than that he had going at, there was nothing
really that he had to sell us that was of any
value except the access to the customers which
was by buying that would save us a great deal
of start-up expense and so on. We did buy —
ultimately, we did buy a couple pieces of equip-
ment from him —• small vacuum truck, a damp truck,
a bulldoxer, some other odds and ends. I can't
recall.
what transpired then, we discussed with
DeBart what he felt his equipment was worth,
what he felt his customers list was worth, and
what we finally — we finally agreed on a price
to be paid to him on a aeries of payments. Actual
the money was paid to three separate corporations.
Did yon rent any property from him?
Tea. On a basis of the fact that we did not
have a site and he was going to — he was going
to sell off his customer list to someone, we felt
that it would interruption aince there were a
great number of people in the business of handling
liquid waste at that time that by gaining the
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11access to his customers list, it would save us
a great deal of tine and effort.
Did you buy hi* customers list?
Sir?
You bought his customers list?
Ne bought his customers list.
Ton bought equipment from his corporation?
Yes, we bought some pieces of equipment.
And yon rented property from him?
We rented property from him on a six month basis.
The lease was signed to initiate with the date
of the transaction which I recollect was the
18th of October, but I'm not absolutely positive.
MB. LIGHTI That's 1977?
TRK WITBESBt 1977.
NX. BAKER: Q Hhen did you first visit
the site?
Barly September of 1977.
What was the condition of the site at that time?
At that time, the site had a large number of
bnrnt drums spread out over an area that extended
beyond the area indicated that he was leasing
to ns and a fairly substantial number of unbnrnt
drums that were stacked in various places around
the site; that is, the entire site.
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Hit. LIGHTt You mean, Mr. DeHart's site or —
THE WITNESS: And it turned out later other
land as well.
MR. BAKERi Q I'll hand you what has been
marked as Deposition Exhibit No. 1. I'll ask you
if you're familiar with that site?
Yes. It appears to be — it appears to be the
site of the —
Would the area bordered in red approximate the
area over which drums — fire burnt drums as well
as new drums existed at the time yoo visited
the site in September of 1977?
Yes, sir, and possibly even further to the right
of this which weald be to the north — possibly,
even further to the north.
Okay. How, the southern — the bottom border is
how you have it held which is nearest you which
is the street called Blaine Street?
Yes.
At that time, did drums exist on both sides on
Blaine Street?
Absolutely.
That's in September 1977?
Yes, sir.
Were there new drums as well as fire burnt drums?
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Yes, air.
Neat of Blaine Street — east of Blaine Street?
Yea, correct.
Now, what area of this did you understand to be
renting from Mr. DeHart?
Well, we understood that the area we were renting
from him baaed on the — on the lease was
approximately an acre of land starting at the
south red mark here and extending — I don't
remember the exact amount — some number of feet
to the north and some number of feet to the west.
The red marks in that area is marked as a fence
between the disposal site and Connor Engineering?
I don't recollect that there was a fence there
at the time. I think, the fence was put up by
Connor at a later date.
Bat it now exists?
Yes.
Along the red line, you described?
Along the south border, yes.
Can you estimate how many intact drums there were
on the site that were not damaged by fire in
September 1977?
Excuse me. You mean, on DeHart'a area?
I mean, entire site.
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MR. LIGHT: Entire site.
THE WITNESS: There were a number of thousand
I don't have an axaot account. I navar took an
exact account.
0. Son* of these intact drums wars on the east and
•oma on the other «ita?
A. Ya».
0 Total dumping site was uaed by Mr. OaHart enter-
priaaa?
X Yes.
0 I* thara a concrete loading dock or atructure
on this?
X There is a concrete dock on the OeHart piece of
property. I can't tell you precisely where.
There im not only a concrete loading dock, but
concrete pavement at ground level in the area
that DeBart claimed to be on hia — on the land
that he owned.
MR. LIGHT: Excuae ae. Off the record.
(Whereupon, there waa adiscussion off the record.)
MR. BAKER: Q What documents were generated
by your business negotiations with Mr. DeHart and
hia enterprises?
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Our local counaal generated four documents. Three
of then were bills of sale to three different
companies, and one was a lease involving OeHarts
personally and Industrial Tectonics.
Were any memorandums created relating to these
sales or acquisitions?
Only in normal accounting records set up in the
book for depreciation purposes.
Would yon describe Mr. DeBart for us?
JL Physical description of Mr. DeBart?
0 Yes.
A. Mr. DeHart is ̂ approximately five-foot-six,
five-foot-seven.
Q> Bow tall are you, sir?
L About my height. I'm five-foot-six-and-a-half.
ft All right.
L He's squat, stocky man. I would estimate that he
probably weighs close to 200 pounds. Square jar,
baldiah — a little bit of reddish hair on the
perimeter. Be did not wear glasses. I don't
remember any particular visible scars or anything
like that that would identify him.
Q How old a man would you say he was, sir?
t. Middle fifties.
QL Did anything unusual happen in the course of
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your paying for the material or leases that yon
entered with Mr. OeHart?
Tea, there were several things. First, he was
unable to give us a proper title to a seai-trailer
that we were going to buy fron bin, and so the
value of that trailer was taken out of the total
amount that waa due to DeBart and that was covered
by a letter to OeBart.
Now, this letter and the three bills of sale* and
one lease, are they still maintained in the
record of your company?
Tea, at 414 Meet Lincoln Highway.
What else happened?
There was also at one point we felt that DeBart
who had promised to give us some assistance in
teaching new employees how to decant the drums
and so forth, had not lived up to his part of the
agreement to give us a few weeks and it was
written out how many hours and so forth.
You had a contract with him and services he would
perform for you in the new enterprise?
I believe, it was part of the purchase — in one
of the purchase eontracta that he would give us
a few hours or some number of hours. I don't
remember the exact number, but it's in the document
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1 to teach u« bow to do the work he waa doing
2 since we knew that at leaat until auch tiae as
3 we could get our own aite purchased and the per-
4 mits obtained from the — whichever state, Illinoi i
5 or Indiana, that we would have to continue to
6 operate on the baaia that he operated. It would
7 only be we anticipated obvioualy becauae a abort
8 tern of the leaae -- we anticipated to be off
9 that aite within the acope of the tern of the
10 leaae.
11 ft How long waa the leaae to run?
12 A. Six Bontba.
13 ft And did you in fact move your enterpriaea within
14 the tan* of the lease?
,5 L Ho, we did not. And we asked DeBart for a six
18 month extension, and it was granted.
,7 ft Do you know where Mr. DeBart's address waa at
is this time?
19 JL No. By thia time all of the correapondence,
20 checka, and so forth were being delivered to
2t Mr. DeHart's accountant, Bill Hicky and Aaaociataa
22 on Lincoln Highway in Olympia Field*.
23 0- Did you receive a customers list you had sought
24 to purchase from Mr. DeHart?
25 A. Y«8.
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Did you receive any other documents from Mr.
2 DeHart besides the customers list?
3 a. No.
4 9 Is the customer list you maintained from Mr.
DeHart, is that maintained in the files of your
corporation?
7 A. Well, in actual fact, the customer list was not
8 a formal type list with names and addresses and
9 so forth, but rather was an —
10 MR. LIGHT: Off the record.
11 (Whereupon, there was adiscussion off the record.)
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13 THE WITNESS: It was a series of cards per-
haps two, three dozen of them.
15 MR. BAKER: Three by five index cards?
,6 A. Yes. I don't think they were index cards but
17 Rolodex cards, but that type of card.
,8 flt Were those cards maintained in your business or
No. Those cards I'm certain were discarded some-
20 where along the line. We picked up the stuff
21 on our own forms and records so that they could
22 be properly filed.
23 MR. LICET: So, they're transcribed then?
24 THE WITNESS: Yes.
25 MR. BAKER: Q In what form do you keep your
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list of customers for Industrial Tectonics
Chemical Division?
There are several places in our records where they
are kept. They're kept on a Rolodex fija. They
are kept also in a standard file drawer with a
separate envelope or file folder for every
customer.
Bow many custoaers does the Chemical Division
have?
Couple dozen.
Does this include firas that may have been a
customer at one tiae and have ceased to be a
customer?
Oh, yes. But the company has been and out of
operation for a year or so now, so all the records
are there, but there are no customers.
You mean, the division of it?
Yes. The Chemical Divi ion.
What corporations, if any, did Mr. DeHart utilise
in his dealings with them?
They used — I don't have the precise name. You
have on your document two of the names that are
correct tbe U.S. Waste — I'm sorry. The Midwest.
MR. LIGHT: Midwest —
MR. BAKER: Q Solvlant Recovery?
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A. Solvent Recovery was one and Midwest Waata Dis-
posals was another. There was a third company
also, U.S. Surplus Sales Company.
Q Do you know what business, if any, Mr. DeHart
conducted under the last name?
A. I was under the impression that he was literally
in the surplus business; that is, he was buying
surplus goods in government auctions and than
reselling them to consumers. Be had an office
and a warehouse somewhere.
ft Do yon know where it was?
A. Yes. It was on Kennedy Avenue. I can't tell you !
the exact address. It was on Kennedy Avenue
in Schererville, though. Perhaps two miles north
of the junction of — Junction Boulevard and
Kennedy Avenue.
ft Okay. After the leasing the premises from Mr.
DeHart and buying the equipment and customer
list, what did you or your organization do at the
15th Avenue site?
A. Well, we proceeded to receive liquid waste, decant
the materials.
ft Okay. Before you did that, did you have to do
anything at the site in preparation for your
activities there?
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Da had to relocate perhaps 100, 150 drums that
were blocking part of the dock right out in front.
Here these intact drums?
These were intact drums.
And you relocated them, what did you do with them?
He emptied them and disposed of the contents.
In what manner did you —
He emptied the drum putting them in an accumulator
tank which is under the dock, and then having
accumulated liquid, hauled off to the landfill
under appropriate permits. The hauling was done
by a company called Scrap Haulers, Incorporated,
and it was taken to the CID Waste Management
landfill at 135th and just off the Calumet Express-
way.
Were you present at the site when this drum re-
moval and --
No.
Who did it, if you know?
Well, I really don't know specifically who would
have been on the truck that moved them, but the
supervisor that we hired. Dale Robinson, was who
had at one time or another had been an employee
DeHart was somewhat familiar of the activity.
Robinson had been employed by Mr. DeHart previously?
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1 *• Yaa. I think, basically as a maintenance mechanic
2 though.
How did you come to hire Mr. Robinaon for your
enterprises?
Hell, we felt we had to have aomaona with familiardty
of what had been done there in terns of handling
these liquids.
When you say "we", who do you mean, sir?
9 X Well, Eagan, Tenny, Myself.
10 ft So, what did you do then?
n A. We made the arrangements to clear with CIO to
12 establish appropriate credit with them since
13 apparently DeHart didn't have very good credit
14 with them — made arrangements with Scrap Haulers
15 to establish credit with them so that we could
ie move these materials off to the landfill. Ha aluo
17 delivered the sludging material that could not
18 be pumped in drums and drum* that could not be
19 emptied to CID in a dump truck that we modified
20 and used for hauling.
21 ft Where did yon obtain the dump truck?
22 *. That waa one of the items we purchased from DeHart,
23 but as I say, we had to modify rather extensively
24 to use it.
25 ft Did Mr. DeHart have title to any of the equipment
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he did supply to you?
Yes. We war* able to retain valid title to both
the vacuum track and dump track.
There arc copies of these tracks maintained in
the office of Industrial Tectonics?
Yes, sir.
was there any farther written conversation with
you and Mr. DeBart?
There are. Our — I recollect, but I'm not
positive that there was a letter asking him to
come give us the tine that we were entitled to.
There was some correspondence relative to the
extent of the lease when April cam* around and
we were still unable to obtain a site.
I gather fro* your discussion of the work you
had to do to begin your operations, that Mr. DeHart:
was no longer conducting this crude solvent re-
covery operation?
Ho, it was an operation. It was operating when
we took over, but simply, he was operating under
cramped conditions which were not necessary.
So, the operation he was going on -- going up unti:
the date you took it over, approximately?
Tea. Be may have stopped a few days before, but
basically in order to maintain the customer list.
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1 we continued to service at least some of th«ae/
2 people. Th«re ware a few people we found ware
3 not sanding in appropriate material* and we4 stopped servicing them.5 ft Tou say some people were not supplying appropriate
6 material? What do you mean, sir?
? i. Basically, we were maintaining the customer list
8 that would be able to supply us with solvents
9 bearing materials. So, that when we got our
10 distillation equipment operating we would be able
11 to distill the solvents and claim them. Samples
12 we ran incidentally claimed that the solvents on
13 the average would run over — well over the 50
14 percent of the volume coming in, and we could
is expect that somewhere between 15 and 20 gallons
16 of solvent could be able to recover to each of
17 the drums that came to us.
18 ft Prom your analysis or experience, do you know
19 what else was in this material besides the solvent i
20 that you were recovering to sell?
21 JL Well, the pigments and resins were typical of
22 the paint sludges. In one group of material,
23 there was a mixture of resin which are basically
24 the vehicles you use to paint, acrylic resins
is with solvents, and the type of thing we stopped
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dealing with was; for example, one source was
•ending out a mixture of water and lacquer. Hell,
the lacquer is not raclaimable and the water is
certainly no particular thing that we wanted to
horse with. So, we stopped doing business with
that particular company.
These solvents in the paints you were recovering,
were they flammable material?
Tes, low flash point material.
By low flash point, what do you mean?
Under appropriate test conditions the materials
can be ignited at temperatures below 100 degree
fahrenheit.
Do you know how low of a degree?
Somewhere down as low as 50 degrees.
Fahrenheit?
Tes.
Do you know what components were in resins and
sludges left after your solvents was removed?
we had an indication of a typical chemistry of —
people who manufacture paints, and I don't remember
the chemistry offhand — but basically, they were
the resin vehicles that are used in the manufacturing
of paint.
This includes lead in some instances?
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Not as a ro»in but as a pigment, yes. Because
while you know lead is not allowed in household
paint, it is allowed in industrial paint.
And were you getting industrial paint?
The material we were getting were coming both
from paint companies and paint suppliers -—
industrial paint suppliers.
Mere there any other metals contained in the
pigment —
Ho. Metals that are in the metal oxide, so,
there is an array of metals that will be present
which makes the pigment of any paint.
Chromium would be one of those metals?
Chromium would be one of those metals. Iron would
be one of those metals.
Would arsenic be a metal found in paint?
MR. LIGHT: If you know.
THE WITNESSi I don't know. I don't think
so, but I never heard of it being used as a pigment
MS. BAXERi 0 Did your operation at the
site begin immediately after the signing of the
lease?
Yes.
How, was Mr. Robinson in charge of that?
Tes.
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Did Mr. Robin«on file an application for employment
with your operation?
Now, you're looking through a file of
document*. !• that the file of your employee
record* for Industrial Tectonics Chemical Division
Yes, sir.
— that you brought with you here today?
Right. Tes, I have here an application that vas
filled in by Mr. Robinson.
Does it indicate a date, air?
The date indicated is November 7th of 1977.
At this point, was he already at work for you, or
did you -- or was it that long before you actually
did start?
I would have to go back and check the payroll
rather. But there was a hiatus of a week or two,
but I'm not sure.
Could yon describe Mr. Robinson for me, sir?
Mr. Robinson is a man who is about five-ten. Ob,
perhaps 200 pounds, balding, blonde-grey hair.
Last time I saw him, he was wearing sideburns.
Could you describe his age?
Well, I believe he was around 40, but in actual
fact, he looked substantially older than that.
Be looked perhaps late forties or early fifties.
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but I believe, he Bight have been only 40.
Would you hazard a guess aa to the date of birth
shown on the application, »ir?
. Yea, February 9, 1940. I recall that I was sur-
5 prised at his birth date, and I talked about it
6 one tine that he must have lived a tough life to
look aa old aa he did at his age.
Do you know what other occupations he had prior
9 to hi* employment with you or aaid subsequent
10 to his employment with you?
11 1. Basically, he was working as a maintenance mechanic
12 before. And when we shut down the Chemical Division
13 operation, we actually kept hid on the payroll,
14 but he was being used over at By-Products —
is By-Products Management as a maintenance mechanic
te for a number of months before we decided there
17 was no chance of our finding the appropriate site
is to move our operation to.
19 & At that point, he waa then actually working for
20 By-Products but being paid by your corporation?
21 A, Yes. That was in compensation for the fact that
22 By-Products was performing certain things for us -
23 handling our telephones, services, and so on.
24 ft Who handled the obtaining of shipments of your
25 solvent waste into the site?
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1 i. We bad both a local and Chicago Una coning into
2 dispatch offices in Scherervilla which was shared
3 with By-Products Management.
4 Qi Did your personnel or By-Products personnel handle
5 the orders?
6 L It was By-Products personnel, but this is why we
7 were paying for work that was being done, and we
8 were paying payroll on this nan who was doing
9 work for the* in compensation for this.
10 ft Okay. What action did yon yourself physically
11 perform in furtherance of the operation at ISth
12 Avenue?
13 MX. LIGHT: Excuse ••. By 'you*, do you
14 aean Industrial Tectonics?
is MR. BAKER: I Mean, hia, Mr. Licht, as opposed
16 tO ——
17 THE WITNESS: Physically, I did very little
is out there. I would go out to the site occasionally
19 to see that things were going along, that the site
20 was being maintained in a resonably neat condition,
21 as neat as it could be for the operation. Made
22 sure that if for some reason, for shortage of
23 personnel or whatever, that a load or two in
24 excess of their handling capability started to
25 accumulate, that the dispatch office was told to
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be sure that incoming loads were deferred for a
couple of days to Bake Bare that there was no
acctunulation on Bite. We felt there had to be
a few hundred drums on Bite as • backlog, but we
did not want to Bee any vaat accumulation of
fresh material on Bite. We wanted in and out.
Bow long did this operation function along these
lines?
Well, from October — November of 1977 until the
end of June of 1978.
Ton have any idea of how many barrels a month or
a week you handled during this time period?
I don't really, Mr. Baker. Z have records on
that, and now that our bookkeeper ia back on the
well list, we will have these lists within two
or three days.
Could you tell me what type of records were
generated concerning the input and output of this
site?
Yea. Certainly the most important record was one
where we invoiced our customers, and there is
an invoice record of every load that was received.
In addition, there were most of people there
were pickup ticketsr however, in dealing with the
truck drivers that we were dealing with, -we were
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dealing with, we ware not always able to get them
to perform your paperwork chorea correctly. So,
we did not always get pickup tickets returned
nor did we get the bills of lading returned as
we should.
By what aeaas of barrels arrived on the site?
They were picked up by our truck drivers and a
van type seal-trailer at the customer's plant and
delivered to Gary. They were unloaded by our
people.
What trucks did the delivery? What trucks did
the delivery?
The van was owned by us. The tractor was owned
by another company, and our driver drove it.
What other company owned that?
One of the vans was —• well, occasionally we
rented vans froa people. Like I mean, trailers
froa tractors from people like Ryder or Transport
Pool or Kenworth, and occasionally we rented a
tractor froa By-Product*. The vans were our vans.
And these records of leases and rentals are
maintained in your files?
Yes, sir, substantially so. This stuff with
By-Products might have been a little too informally
handled. The other things weren't.
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These files reflect that the work was for your
chemical division of Industrial Tectonics as
opposed to your design?
Yes, because the design division has never rented
any trucks, trailers — had no reason to.
The design division would never receive the
material that were being received at 15th Avenue?
No. Our offices at that time were over in
Haamond on Hohman Avenue, and I don't think that
we would have been able to receive then or unload
the* there.
Was there any other area anywhere that you re-
ceived this kind of material that was received
at 15th Avenue?
Ho, sir.
How, you indicated previously, I believe, that you
received a shipment that had lacquer and water in
it?
Yes, sir.
What was done with that?
It was mixed with the other material and taken
off to the landfill.
Did you ever receive any other material that you
thought was incompatible with your operation?
On one or two occasions and occasional dram was
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brought in that did not appear to be appropriate
and was put back on the truck for redelivery. In
fact, our drivers never brought In inappropriata
material. Occasionally customers would bring
material* in.
On some instances,customers would actually bring
the material to your site?
Tea.
What customers were that, if you know?
Well, there was Consumer Paint in Gary. There
was a company oat of Michigan. The name is Rozima
who were basically functioning as a disposal
operation in Michigan, but had no hone for the
paint sludge material they handled. So, they
would bring it in to us, and we would bulk them
and ship then off to the landfill.
Did either of these companies bring you inappro-
priate material?
Occasionally, Roiima would have drums and take
them back with them.
Did you or your employees as far as you know re-
ceive a drum that was inappropriate to you and
dispose or place on the site?
The instructions that we gave to our employees —
and the instructions were beaten into their heads •
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that if there waa a question about something that
thay waran't sura to call and lat me or one of
the supervisor* know. We did not want to foul
up that Bite. It was bad enough.
As far as you know, were your instructions followed?
Tea, air.
So, as far aa you know, there waa no drum of in-
compatible operation was ever received by your
company put anywhere on the aite?
That ia ay understanding and that is my belief.
You indicated your operation operated fairly
aaoothly some tiae in October to aomewhere in
June?
Until the end of June.
MS. LIGHTt Of 1978.
MS. BAKER: Q Of 1978, and then what happened
at that point?
In June of 1978, the legal landfill had been
accepting our alndge bottoms and ao forth, advised
us that they would be unable to accept materials j
for a abort period of time nnleas they got them-
selves reorganiied in their operation. They
apparently had a couple of fires at their landfill,
CID Waste Management, and they were examining how
they were going to handle this situation since
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they ware dealing with not only materials that
they ware receiving from us but from three or
four other people and materials that they were
receiving directly from source*.
Now, you were sending out two different kinds
of material, is that correct? Liquid in the
tanks, where was that going?
CID landfill.
I thought, that was — what did you do with the
recoverable sale?
The recoverable was being shipped to a company
in 0'Claire. If it was a straight solvent, that
was being shipped to Waste Reclamation Research
in O'Clair, Wisconsin.
And how was it getting there?
It was being delivered in tanX trucks.
By what carrier?
By-Products Management.
By-Prodncts Management?
Would deliver it. They were paid for the freight.
Okay. Are those records of shipment to O'Clair,
Wisconsin, maintained in a file?
Tes, sir.
What documents were maintained and generated
relative to these shipments?
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There ware — thara waa some typa of shipping
papar. Ma did not invoice thaae paopla. They
•ubaittad a report to ua of tba analyaia of tha
material, and than aant tha check along with tha
analyaia.
Did tha aaalyaia include the volume -- any re-
ference to the volume material yon received?
Oh, yea, abaolutely.
and they would pay you for that material?
Yea.
By check?
Yea, air.
The check would be returned caahed or negotiated
through a banking channel?
They would be depoaited to the bank.
Are recorda of that depoaita maintained?
Yea.
And account entriea poated for accounta of the
money?
Yea. And in addition, occaaional druma of materials
auch aa fraon or triehlore arrived on the aite,
and theaa were accumulated until perhapa 20 or
30 would be found; and they would be shipped and
aold to a company in Milwaukee. Bydrite,
H-y-d-r-i-t-e, I think. It'a Hydrite Chemical in
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1 Milwaukee, Niaonain. There again, this atuff
2 waa reported back aa active component* in volume,
3 and they war* paid — it waa paid on the baaia
4 of they are raclaimable components.
5 MR. BERMANi What'a the chemical name?
6 I wanted to gat the chemical name.
7 THE WITHBSS: Tricloridea. It* a a ataudard
8 dry cleaning solvent, whatever that particular
9 ia.
10 MR. BAXXR: Q From whom would you receive
11 that?
12 A. Many of the cpmpaniea that applied painta would
13 uae thia type of paint for certain typaa of
14 cleanup, and they would keep them separated be-
15 causa of their owa internal problem of mixture
is and ao forth. So, wa would almost always when
17 we saw a dram that aaid freon on the outaide of
18 it without fail whan it waa checked, it waa holding
19 fraon.
20 (X Freon ia a aolvant?
2, «. Yea.
22 ft They were naing in some capacity other than re-
23 frigeranta?
24 i. Yea, air.
25 ft -Ia that flammable material?
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HO.
Bow about tba other?
No.
The dry cleaning fluid?
Triclore i« not flammable, no.
Okay. In addition to these two chemicals, did
you ever receive anything at the site that you
kept other than the freon, the dry cleaning fluid,
and the paint solvent material that yon talked
about?
Ho. He really dida't keep those. We stored those
on short term basis, processed then, and sent out.
By keep, I Bean return to the person whoa you got
it.
No, no, not to uy knowledge.
Okay. So, you didn't dispose of anything through
this operation other than these materials?
I'm trying to recollect, Mr. Baker. Whether there
was, I don't recollect. When we dissect these
records, all our invoicing, and so forth is
sequential numerically there will be a record of
one point to another point so we will be able to
show you exactly what cane in and what went out.
Okay. Other than the company to whom you sold
the freon and dry cleaning material and the O'Clairs,
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Wisconsin firm to whom you sent the recovered
solvents, did you sell any material out of that
•it* to anyone?
Tec. In addition, there were a number of drums
of off-grade lacquer — varnish not lacquer —
varnish that came into us. This material was not
good enough for a normal paint manufacturer to
be able to utilize, however, some secondary
operations found that this stuff was acceptable
to use as a paint base; and in fact, we sold a
number of hundreds, and I don't remember the
exact number, .but quite a number of hundreds of
this drum of off-grade varnish to a steel drum
reclaiming company here in —
Who is that?
Calumet Container.
Do yon know who the principals are in that company1
A fellow named John Jacklia, J-a-c-k-1-i-a.
Any other material sold by your organization by
this site other than those materials you just
described to us?
Hot to my recollection, Mr. Baker.
Mere you able in your solvent recovery process
to totally empty drums?
No.
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So, yon never sold any drums to them?
Drums war* sold. Oh, of course. Thank you.
Emptied drums were sold to on* drum
reclaiming company in the city. Acme Barrel Compan;
What city, sir?
Chicago, sir.
Over here we do not refer to that as the city.
Me emptied -- when we emptied the drums, in fact.
Acme Barrel maintained a trailer on site -- their
trailer — and we would fill the trailer up with
varying numbers of drums ranging from about 230
to 250 or so drums on each trailer.
Did you receive money on a per drum basis from
them?
Tes.
Did they generate any record to you that indicated
the number of drums they received from you?
Tes, they did. They didn't pay us for all the
drums they received, but — so that what they did
was, for examplet we would ship 242, and they
would decide us to pay us for 220; and they would
only indicate 220 on the check stub or whatever.
So, their records would differ from yours?
Would not coincide.
Would not from your company?
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In fact, I had a meeting with tha vice-president
of the conpany at ona point whan they wara ahaad
of u« by many, many hundreds of drums — several
thousand, in fact, and aat down and had to hava
a nerve to narva dabata with then ovar tha fact
that wa wara baing abuaad.
Did you ganarate any internal memorandum with
Taotonica Chemical Division referring to this
problem that they were performing?
I'm certain letters were sent there. We would
invoice the* for the drums. They would not
necessarily pay us for what wa invoiced.
Did you write letters complaining of this problem
that the letters did not correspond?
•rote letters and finally negotiated a meeting
and settled for part of the way — for part of
the total amount that was due.
So, you then received a check that received a
portion of the check between your invoices and
their payments?
Right.
Okay. Could you tell me what records were created
by the sale of the —• I believe, it's varnish you
testified?
Varnish that was invoiced out to Calumet Container.
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There were times they came to pick stuff up
and times we delivered.
In what condition was that material delivered to
that company?
It was in 55-gallon drums.
Just as received?
Yes. It was cheeked and then closed up again
and then as received.
Does your invoice reflect accurately the number
of drams that were supplied to you by that company*
Uh-huh.
And do their invoices or records reflect that
account of drums they received from you?
Well, since they haven't paid us for a number of
them, Z can't say. There is about 100 — I've
forgotten. It was either 160 or 240 drums that
were shipped for them and not paid for and
correspondence back and forth and nasty notes and
so forth and not have been paid.
So, there again is a difference between what you
were paid for the number of drums you were paid
for and number of drums your records reflect of
drums that were shipped to them?
That's correct. But other correspondence indicate:!
that we were complaining to thea, and in fact.
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that they did not pay UB.
Q Does your documents you racaivad from your cus-
tomers supplying you with tha wa«tn materials
you wara processing raflact in any way, shape,
or for* tha number of barrels?
L Ya>.
ft That you supply you?
i. Thay not always did. Our customers indioatad --
suppliad us with piacas of papar with thair
generations, bat oar driver had a pickup tiokat
and a multicopy fora whara ha was sapposad to
leave one copy at tha dock and bring back a copy
with tha load.
ft Okay. Would that document be signed by any re-
presentative of tha company from whoa tha —
JL It was sapposad to be, yas.
& It did not always occur in practice?
JL You're dealing with people on shipping docks and
truck drivers, and it isn't always —
ft Bo, sometimes you would have no document either
acknowledged by tha company or generated by the
company reflecting —
A. Tha acknowladgaaant would ultimately coma in the
fact we would gat paid.
0. Hare these payments from tha input put into your
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operation agreed with your account made by your
truck driver*?
Uh-huh.
So, the input record* would accurately reflect
what you received in correspondence of your re-
cord* and their*?
Ye*, *ir.
Now, the other Batter of thing* went out — one
of the other wa*te thing* that went out wa* in
bulk of quantity of recovered solvent* or were
they in barrel*?
Mo. The reclaimable lolvent* went out in bulk.
In bulk, and that wa* hauled by By-Product* truck*,
i* that correct?
I think, alnoct all the time, ye*.
How were you able to determine the gallonage of
recoverable solvents that went out any one parti-
cular shipment, *ir?
We would depend on the people at the far end who
ran it through the metar.
And they would run it through a meter and an
analysis and *upply you with a record, and that's
what yon relied on, what went out in that area?
Ye*.
Another way material left there wa* in more or lesa
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liquid sludge that did not include recoverable
solvent*, is that correct?
Correct.
Bow was that transported?
In vacuum tank trucks.
Did you own one of these, or did someone else?
No. These were owned by Scrap Haulers, Incorporated.
I believe, they're out of Riverdale, and we paid
then for the oost of transportation; and at one
point, we paid them also for the dump charge,
but after we got ourselves established with CIO,
they didn't have it carried through their books.
They weren't marking it up any, and we paid them
for the freight and paid CID for the dumping
charges.
Did you have any contract reduced to writing witb
either the dnnp or the hauler?
No. The only thing we had with the dump were
permits that were issued by appropriate authorltien
in Illinois.
Did you ever receive a contract with the dump
for receiving your material?
We talked to them many number of times, and they
said that they did not have contracts with people
such as ourselves. We don't know whether they
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1 had contracts with direct source customers or not.
2 9. Bow were you able to determine the amount of material
3 leaving your site by tbe method of these vacuum
4 trucks?
5 A. The vacuum trucks were filled approximately full
6 so that —
7 ft Excuse me, sir.
3 (Whereupon their was a briefpause in the proceedings.)
9
10 THK WITHBSSi My response is this. Obviously,
11 we didn't want to pay for any more than we were
12 actually getting out. So, we- responded to our
13 supervisor on site that the truck was essentially
14 full. The actual capacity of the truck was approxi
is mately 6400 gallons, and our — the arrangement
16 with CIO and with the hauler was that if it was
17 a full track, it would be counted as 5,000 gallons
18 because there were times when they would be a
19 little under. I was told by our supervisor that
20 almost all the loads that went were full to the
21 brim and therefore held S3, 5400 gallons.
22 We were only billed by 5,000 by Waste
23 Management. We were only billed $5,000 even if
24 it ran 4800, we were still billed 5,000. There
25 was no way to meter this material. No point in
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trying to weigh the truck in and out because vary-
ing material would have varying density, so there
vac no real feasible way to Bake sure but eyeball
to make sure the truck was as close to full as
they would get it.
Were the drums that left there too the Acne drums?
Acne Barael, yes.
were they counted by your employees?
Tea.
Old yon receive any documents to whom the truck
you sent the drums to reflect the drums they
received?
Well, as I told you, what we ended up with was
Acme always giviag us a lesser count that we
sent up there, and I know in one particular case,
they ~ I went into a truck that was about a third
loaded and took a count and then counted while
they had them accumulating material drums and
finish that truck. And I know that count was
accurate, and yet, when we got the record from
Acme, it was 20, 30 drums short and I called
up screeming bloody murder. And we said they
are not reclaimable and at least give us an
account and say you're deducting for something
rather than doing it this way. And I couldn't get
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that out of then.
Okay. Mow, the druma that went to the fr«on and
dry cleaning fluid, they were accurately accounted
Yea.
And you got aatisfactory corresponding coonta
back?
Not an awful lot of thoa«, Mr. Bak«r, but more
or la«« SUB.
Did anything go out of this sits through your
operation other than what we've talked about?
There were small numbers of drums that were —
where the materials were actually jelled in the
drums that were not ponrable, not deeantable,
not anything. And these drums were actually
shipped to a place •— a landfill in Rochester,
Indiana. They were not an awful lot of them.
How were they shipped there, sir?
They came and picked them up, and we paid them
so much for the pickup and the dumping charge.
Did they provide you with any paperwork reflecting
the number of drums they took?
We paid them oa the basis of the number of drums,
and I'm pretty sure that they didn't pay for
less than — I mean, they won't take more drums
than they got paid for. And we have, you know.
o
1 check oopia« and mo forth.
2 ft Going back to your customers, you indicated that
3 there was a multiple copy of a pickup ticket u»«d
by your personnel picking them up?
L Yes.
^ Most of the drams that cane in there, you picked
up?
. Tes.
I. Okay. What other documents were created by your
10 company a copy of which was kept in your file
11 pertaining to these drums that were picked up
12 from the customer*?
13 A. when the pickup was accomplished, the type of
14 material was Indicated on a receiving ticket.
15 » In other words, it was — in addition to the
16 pickup ticket, there was a receiving ticket?
17 A. There should have been a receiving ticket, not
is all the time but most of the time there was.
is There was a receiving ticket indicating reclaim-
20 able material, dumpable material and so forth.
21 ft And that would count the number of drums?
22 L That would count — well, most of the time Mr.
23 Robinson was not very good with arithmetic, but
24 most of the time it tallied out.
25 ft What other documents were generated?
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When that information was brought back to tha
2 office and then an invoice was generated.3 ft What office ware the invoices generated out of,
4 sir?5 JL Those were generated out of the office which is
6 now at 414 West Lincoln Highway.
? ft Where was it then?
JL It was in tha basement of my home.
ft And who had prepared these invoices?
10 JL Delores Licht.
11 ft And is she any relation to you?
12 JL Yes, my wife. -
13 Q. is she an employee of Industrial Tectonics?
14 JL Yes.
ft Is sha an officer of Industrial Tectonics?
18 JL Yes.
what is her position with Industrial Tectonics?
She is the bookkeeper.
19 0, As an officer, what is her position different
20 than bookkeeper?
21 JL Yes, treasurer.
She also does the paperwork associated with tha
23 design division of Industrial Tectonics?
24 JL Yes.
25 MR. LICHTi fexcuse me. By "paperwork" —
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THE WITNESS« Accounting and bookkeeping
not secretarial type stuff.
Did you enploy any secretary for the design
division or use secretaries for Industrial Tectonics
or for the Chemical Division?
No. Industrial Tectonics payroll only had on it
the people actually oat on the site and Delores
Licht.
Bow about yourself?
no.
Ton did not receive any salary fro» this?
That's correct.
Were Mr. Tenny or Mr. Eagen paid by you?
No, sir.
Mr. Bagen was then never aneaployee of yours?
That's correct.
Did he do any work at the site on the 15th Avenue
in behalf of Industrial Tectonics?
In terns of physical effort at the site, never.
He would occasionally run errands, bring in payroll.
timecards so that paycbecks could be written out,
and sometimes deliver paychecks.
How many employees did you ever have at the sits
at one time at 15th Avenue?
Seven maximum»
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Sevan employees at one time?
Tea.
In what capacity did these employees vork?
One was Robinson, the supervisor. Another was
a maintenance man, and there were three men
working on the stock. But at any given time, one
or two were abaent. So, we might have seven
people in a given pay period, but usually, five
or six.
Who were the persons that drove the van or truck?
None of those. One of those people would be
the driver of a dump truck over to CID when the
dump truck was filled up with a couple thousand
gallons of glob. The non-ponrable material that
would be drives over to CID by one of those
employees, and in addition to that, we had one
other man by the name of Kelvin Mitchell, ST.,
who was a truck driver and who paid our pickup*
for na and so forth.
Mow, what physically did these men do at the
site?
All right. Physically, an inspection would be
made of a particular drum to verify what it waa,
and then the materials that were clean enough
would be decanted into the vacuum truck.
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Directly from the drum?
Wall, they would be poured into a — into a vassal
and then into the vacuum truck, into on* of those
cans alongside the dock. And then —
How big were these cans?
That was perhaps 1500 — 1500 gallons.
Is there a tank inside the dock itself or under th
dock itself with an access on the top?
Tes. That tank was for the ponrable sludging
material, the non-reclaimable material.
The reclaimable material then was poured into a —
Separate vessel.
Seperate vessel?
Yes.
And that was transferred up into the vacuum truck
owned by who?
No. That was then pumped into a — well, the
material would either be handled or a small vacuum
truck, you know, temporary storage, or say for
5,000 gallons accumulated, the materials would
then be pumped into a tank truck, a regular tank
truck, that couldn't stand a vacuum, and then
that was shipped up to Wisconsin.
Okay. The material was poured into this tank
and was a recoverable solvent. What was left in
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the drua then?
There was the sludging bottom material, which
would then be emptied into the below dock tank.
Okay. Would that totally remove the material?
No. You can never empty these drums completely.
What wa« then left with what was left on the
truck then?
It was sent on the Acme truck and sent up to
Acme.
That would be the whole drum?
The whole drum including the residual, whatever.
Mow, heavy residual, there maybe three, four
gallons on the bottom or might be a pint on the
bottom.
What was done on the bottom of the drum?
That was vacuumed out of the occasionally scrap
haulers. Their trucks had their own vacuum
equipment, then they would just Buck the material
out of that tank and into the truck.
And was that the operation that was done on every j
drum containing recoverable solvents?
Tes. Well, there were some drums that were —
well, yes, on the recoverable solvents. That's
right.
All right. Were there other drums that were
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handlad differently other than those that were
baaically sealed up and sent on to the freon and
dry cleaning place?
No. The staff that looked like it was reuseable
like the varnish or — it was sold to Calunet
Container. He opened up many drums of a shipment
where they were literally sealed on the cap, and
we opened one dram to verify what it was and
assumed that the rest of them were like that one
drum. So, that it was varnish that was going to
dry and so forth/ and then —
Okay. Other than these drums that went out sub-
stantially the way they came in and the drums
yon talked about where you poured off the re-
claimable solvent and poured the sludge into the
tank at the dock, what other operations were done
with any type of drums at the site?
These drums with materials that were, you know,
jelled in solid.
What was done with those?
As I mentioned before, picked up periodically
by the landfill operator out of Bochester and
delivered to his landfill.
Okay. Again, these drums would leave your premises
substantially the way they came — the sane conditi >n
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they cana in?
Yes.
How did thay gat to tha dump truck full of atuff?
Thara ara certain bottom aatarials that would
not pour, and yet, we couldn't take and lend 20,
30 gallona of glob to Acme Barrel. So, we would
•crape or let these drums *et on top of theae —
the reaaon we rebuilt thia dump truck after we
bought it was to get ourselves soae rails on top
so we could put the drua on top and let the stuff
oose its way out of the drua.
Into the duap truck?
Into the drvunp truck. It's one thing to send up
to the duap reclaiaar a gallon even five or six
gallons. It's another thing when you send them
half a drua. Be resents it.
Then what was done with these?
These were taken to CID Landfill.
Tour duap truck?
In our duap truck, and we were invoiced on what
we sent up there, and —
How did you determine the volume being sent there
in this Banner?
Early on in the game, they took meaaureaents of
the truck and agreed to a volume that was — that
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was about what the truck held. Actually, the
truck bald a little bit nor* than — than we
usually shipped — a little bit more than we
were billed for, but one of th« fallows — it
might have been Eagen — want up thara and pro-
vidad than that thara is going to ba a little
bit of stuff laft on tha bottom so that tha
actual capacity wa wara billad for on that truck
was approzinataly 10 yards of material, and tha
truck actually bald 12 or 13 yards.
MR. LIGHTi Cubic yards?
TBE WITNESS: Cubic yards of material. And
ha, our drivers, wara instructed to ba sura that
they took along a ho* and, you know, raka tha
thing down, make sure that wa didn't and up taking
tan yards out up thara and bringing five yards
back.
MR. BAKER: Q What records, if any, ara
maintained in tha files of Industrial Tectonics
according to these?
Invoices from CIO. There was supposed to be bills
of lading and so forth, but they didn't always
gat generated. But you can believe the bills from
CID came through.
And there would ba a corresponding check Industria
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Tectonics paying that bill?
Absolutely.
Hare there any wastes taken to any other place
other than those that you mentioned?
I don't recall, Mr. Baker. When I 90 through the
records over this weekend and into next week, I
will and as we make those necessary tabulations
for you, I will be able to tell you precisely. I
don't recall any, but I can't say with absolute
certainty that anything ever happened. I didn't
see every invoice that went out. I didn't see
every billing ticket. You know, I can't say
that I saw, but maybe the majority of these things
Were any drums taken to any place other than
some waste disposal company or some chemical
company or some container company somewhere?
MR. LIGHT> Yon mean, other than Acme, is
that your point?
MR. BAKERi 0 Ho, other than barrel recovery
place or some other company?
Well, there were some drums that went to landfill.
Some went —
To improved landfill?
Yes. Either CZD or this place down in Rochester.
The stuff that went to Rochester was always the
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jelled material. Th« stuff to CIO would not —
it normally would not take drums to CIO, but not
to say that occasionally a drum didn't and up
at the bottom of that dump truck.
Okay.
When I say 'occasionally*, I'm not talking about
any significant number, but —
Are there any other place* other than CID that
that bulk sludge went to either by dump truck or
vacuum tank?
No, I'm not.
Would you believe all that material that left that
site went to CID or some other approved landfill?
Went to either CID or CID because that was the
only place our drivers were to take the stuff. I
had no control over scrap haulers, but I know,
I got scrap haulers from — for freight and CID
for dump.
So, the only place your drivers were to take the
sludge was to CID?
That's correct.
The driver's did not, though, make records for
every trip even every trip they made to CID?
There were supposed to be records, but I will not
guarantee there was a record for every one. But
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I mean. Instructions to those people out there
where it didn't make any difference if we lost
our fanny on a particular load. It was knowledge
that it was to be done right or they were fired.
A* far as you know, your instructions were followed?
As far as I know, they were followed.
That business in O'Clalr, Wisconsin, was the only
site you took the raclaimable solvents that were
generated?
That Hydrite for other reclaimables. Solvents —
the chlorinated material such as freons and so
forth, which were reclainable solvents went to
Hydrite. Other reelaimable solvents went to
O'Claire, Wisconsin.
Okay. The material that went to Hydrite went to
them in substantially the same fora as it was
when received by you?
Tes. We night end up with two half drums narked
parachlore, and we would then decant one into
the other. There was no particular benefit as
to sending them a second drum. It would cost us
a drum and so we would, you know, condemse these
things. There was no sense in sending 50 drums
of which half were full and half were half full.
Did this combining operation leave a drum with
61
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any residua in it?
No. Or if there were any residues like there
•ight be some sludge — I never saw it, but
I'a surmising — there might have been some rust
or something like that became baaically thi« is
what this stuff i« used for that would end up
at the drum reclaiming plant; and they would wash
8 it out and handle it along with their normal
9 sludge disposal problem*.
10 a Mr. Liaht, I hand you what has been marked as
11 Deposition Exhibit 2 and ask yon if yon can
12 identify that?.
13 A. Tes. It's a photograph which appears to en-
14 compass a portion of the site on 15th Avenue.
is ft Okay. Does that depict Blaine Street we talked
16 about previously?
17 *. Yes.
18 ft Okay. What is Blaine Street on that? Is that
19 Blaine in the upper part moving from right to
20 left?
21 A. It's the unimproved dirt road appearing on the
22 top part of the photograph and in down on a
23 slight diagonally.
Does the concrete dock appear on this photograph?
25 A. Yea.
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1 ft Where is it located?
2 A. It1! located approximately one-and-a-quartar incha
3 down from the top of the photograph and approxi-
4 mataly three-and-a-half inches from the right-hand
5 aida of tha photograph.
e ft Okay. Can you give m« tha location of approximate
7 what drum*, if any, on this site were from the
8 operation of Industrial Tectonics?
9 A. Tes. The drum* that I'm sure that were part of
10 what we put in there are the drams that are
n immediately adjacent to that dock — immediately
,2 to the west of the dock. There is another group
13 of drum* —-
14 MA. LIGHT>• Excuse me. Would you establish
15 the direction of this, please?
le THE WITHESflt Blaine Street is — sectionally
17 runs north and sooth. The left-hand side of the
18 picture is north. The right-hand side of the
19 picture is south. We are looking from west to
20 •»«*•
21 MX. LIGHTi The top of the picture is east,
22 and the bottom is west?
23 THE WITMESSi Right. The left is north and
24 right side is south. Tes.
25 MR. LICET: Thank you.
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THE WITNESS: There im a group of drum* that
are set in a curved linear fora on the right-hand
portion of the picture, which are drums.
ME. BAKERi Q What i« contained in those
drums, if yon know?
Some of those drums, I know, contain a mixture
of aolvents and acrylic plastic.
Does that differ than the material you normally
receive?
Tes. There is one grouping — and I'm not sure
that is entirely that material there — but
there is one group of material which is about
800 drums which were obtained from a chemical
company that advised us first of all that the
material was resaleable but couldn't go selling
the second grade material. And it — if not
reclaimable, it was — was very readily distilled
to resins — separate the acrylic from the solvents
and both the solvents and acrylic resins would
be highly soluable.
As far as you know, those drums appear to be
intact and stacked in the lower right-hand portion
of this site depicted in the photograph that is
somewhat substantially or, well, perhaps an inch
down the picture from this' curve linear stack that
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you showed u>. Are those drums from Industrial
Tectonics?
I think, those drum* ara left over from DeHart's
operation.
Now, the drums immediately to the left of that
curve linear stack are in the area of the dock,
is that right?
They are right behind the dock on the concrete
paved area.
In those drums (indicating)?
Are definitely materials we put in there.
How, the little stack that seems to go in exactly
east-west line — immediately to the north of
that stack and to the west, are those drums —
this little pale down here — they're stacked
approximately four drums wide, three drums high,
which are stacked in an east-west direction?
I'm not certain whether those are our drums or
not. As I indicated to you previously, as soon
as we have reviewed our tally sheets and records,
we'll be able to identify for certain.
I would point out that DeBart left
an enormous amount of the drums back in that area ••-
behind the area that we were working. Unfortunately,
we did not take pictures at the time. He anticipated
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being there six months.
Did yon or your employees avar decant DaHart'a
drumming proceaa through your operation for
whatever solvents could ba racovarad?
I'» aura we did clean up a few of hia drums be-
cauaa ha did not leave appropriate araaa in front
of the dock. So, I know vary wall wa had to
have diapoaad of a number of drum*.
So, there was some number of gallon* of solvent*,
some number of gallons of sludges, and some number
of drums sent to this reclaimer that would not
have bean covered by your customer invoices?
Taa.
And you don't know what that number is?
Mot very many, bat I can —- I'll try to find oat.
Z hay* no record of it, no, bat it cannot ba
vary much.
Did you make any arrangement with Mr. DaRart
concerning any of tha drums on the premises?
Was that expreasly covered by any agreement verbal
or written?
MR. LIGHT: You mean, tha drums that belonged
to DeHart?
MR. BAKER: Q Tha drums on tha side at
tha time your lease began, did you have an agreement
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•bout those drums with Mr. DeHart?
I don't remember any such agreement, Mr. Baker.
And I know that there is nothing reduced to
writing, and X don't recall any verbal agreements
with him. All that we proposed to do with that
•ite was to use it on the >ost temporary basis
until we were able to find another site and
get the necessary permits for setting up our
distillation.
As far as you kaow, did any of your employees
deal with the fire damaged drums on the site?
So, absolutely not. They had no reason to or
need to.
There was no need to increase your access to
operation?
Not to my knowledge, Mr. Baker.
No movement of any fire damaged drums were given
to yon? Ho instructions were given to your
employees?
The instuctlons were, 'Keep your hands off the
fire damaged drums.*
And as far as you know, your instructions were
followed?
They were followed.
You indicated, I believe, that this operation ran
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from October until approximately June with vary
little accumulation of drum* at the site?
Correct.
Ton indicated a couple of truckloads -- vanloads?
1mm, maybe.
Could yon give mm a number of drum* that would
encompass?
A typical load coming in would run — well, it
ranged anywhere from 20, 30 to the occasionally
80. But they would average in — probably in
the seventies.
So, would it be fair to say then that through
this time period from October 1977 until approxi-
mately Jane 1978 the accumulation of drum* through
your operation of the Bite would be approximately
160 plus whatever?
Mever more than a oouple hundred to 150 on the
outside.
Tou indicated when there came a time of that
operation changing in June of 1978?
June, 1978, Waste Management indicated that they
would be temporarily unable to accept the low
flash point materials from us and told us that
they would advise us in a short time — couple
weeks, three weeks — as just how they were going
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to handle the matter.
What changes, if any, were made in your operation
at the 15th Avenue site?
At that point, we advised our customers that we
were unable to dispose of these materials because
of the problems at CIO and that as soon as we
had some response at CID that we would advise
them, and we also asked them not to send us
anything if they could possibly avoid us and asked
us not to pick up anything if they could possibly
avoid it. At that point, one of our major
customers disappeared never to be seen from again,
who was that?
Kustoleum Company, out of Bvanston.
Hot disappearing you don't mean it, though?
Old rust makes a lot of paint. We didn't See
any more paint from them.
MR. LIGHTi They ceased to be your customers?
THE WITNESSi Other customers held back
accumulating. Some companies were unable, and we
accepted some from companies that were unable who
were accumulating them.
Do you know what companies those were?
Those are listed, but I can't give them offhand;
but I can get then.
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Did thoaa policies or method of operation change
again?
Tea, because wa kept badgering Waata Managaaant
for a response on whan, 'What can wa do? Will
you taka it in druaa? Will you taka it bulk?
Will yon do anything?" The response was to gat
put off further and further, and wa finally ended
up cutting back to the point of stopping tha
operation ooaplataly and loaing tha whola benefit
of tha custoaers liat we spent a whola lot of
ffloney for tha year before.
What tiBe period did yon obtain these aolventa
with tha acrylic raaina that are now stored at
this aita?
July or August of '78.
Did there coae a tiaa whan you began receiving
chaaicala at tha aita in anticipation of being
able to taka aatarial to one of your landfills?
Wa took the aaterial froa tha — froa tha acrylic
aatariala in on tha baais of tha fact that we
had decided that even though wa did not have a
proper site available to ua for our distillation
syataa, that wa none the lesa filed with both the
State of Illinois and the State of Indiana.
In the case of Illinois on a fictitious
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1 »ita, that the site exists and sitting in an
2 empty building is for a sale but inappropriata
3 to our particular need, but nonetheless pat it
4 on that particular street corner and also took
5 with our management of ay-Products to put the
8 second operation to the State of Indiana basing
7 it on By-Produets Management site in Scharervill*
8 We filed that document with the State of Indiana
9 in early August of 1978, and when it became
10 very obvious that the landfill people were
11 playing games, and we filed about the same time
12 with the State of Illinois.
13 The State of Illinois rejected the
14 permits for a variety of reasons, and the State
15 of Indiana finally issued a permit the following
16 March of 1979. However, one of the provisos in
17 their permit to us is that we would have to get
18 approval of local authorities in Schererville
19 for building permits and so forth and so forth,
20 and Schererville would not issue the permit.
21 ft What operations did you anticipate in operating
22 on the acrylic material that you received and
23 stored at the site?
24 A. We anticipated that we would be able to put up
25 our distillation unit. Hopefully, put it up on
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the back portion of the Schererville ait* isolatin
it from any of the By-Products building* or any-
body else*s buildings, and processing that as
the very first material that went into our still.
In other words, you planned to diatill this in
your still?
Sight, and the clean still was going to be
acrylio material because the information we
were told by the chemical company was that they
would be very interested in examining material
after it had been distilled with view of buying
back the resins.
Did your company perform any analysis or have
any alaysis performed on this behalf of the
material in these acrylics?
Ho, sir. This was a big national company,
and we presumed that they were going to more
or leas tell us the truth.
Mho was that?
Ashland Chemical, Calumet City.
Did yon perform any other analysis on incoming
material to your site or have it performed by
anyone?
Tes. Analyses were performed by CID laboratories
in order to get the permit.
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That was on — want into tha company or what want
into tha waste aite?
Naate aita.
Right, but you parformed two othar taata from
what you racaivad?
Right. Tha only taat wa know wara performed on
what wa racaivad wara dona by Waata Reclamation
in O'Clair on solvent* that want to them, CID on
•ludga liquid, solid sludge want to them.
Some tasting en freon and —
By Hydrita, of course.
Are thoaa test results in your file along with
the invoices and bills?
Tea.
Mew. by Jane, 1978, you had exceeded the terms
of year initial lease with Mr. DaHart, is that
trua?
Right.
Did you oonaaquently enter into a second laaae
with Mr. DaHart?
We got a renewal of our first six-month leaaa
for an additional six months.
When was that?
Hell, actually after the data of the expiration
of the first leaaa, which is retroactive and
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paid a couple month* back.
Did you deal with Mr. DeHart personally or vaa
this by latter?
MX. LIGHT: Do you recall?
THB WITNESS: Too know, I don't remember.
At on* point, he cane over to the — ay office
was in Haaaond, and at one point, he caae to
pick up BOB* rent check* but that auat have been
in January or February of 1978. I don't reaembei
•••ing hia after that.
Were all correspondence of Mr. DeHart aaintained
in the files of Industrial Tectonics?
Tes. Our correspondence of everything we sent
to hia is there.
Do you have any dealings with Mr. DeHart concerning
his other site for a siailar operation in Gary?
Never. Absolutely not.
Rave you ever been to that site?
Once. I went there soae tiae before his fire
when he was in operation.
Would it have been prior to August 1977?
I don't reaeaber when his fire was, but —
And what was the occasion of going to the site
at that tiae?
It was -— if you recall, I told you that Eagan,
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Tenny and I had talked earlier in the year, 1977,
about this operation, and I vent over to see
what it was that he was doing there,
ft "hat was the condition of the site at that time,
sir?
JL He had a reasonably neat appearing operation.
He had an enormous amount of drums stored out
in the back acres,
ft How tall were his drums?
JL Most of them were lined on the sides which is
not an improper way to store them. Host of them
were lying OB ,their sides, as Z recollect them,
ft Do you know whether or not he was pouring sludges
I from any of his drums on the back —• in the pit
of the back of that tract of 7400?
JL Z couldn't see any. Zt was up near his dock. Z
couldn't see what was there except in the front
Z could see.
ft Do you know if any drums or sludges on the other
side of 15th Avenue?
JL Ho, sir.
ft Was any type of activity conducted by your
employees?
Jk There was absolutely not. To my knowledge,
there was never any pieces, never anything buried
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on that site.
Was the second lease or renewal — the first
lease was reduced to writing as far as you know?
It seems to me, it was, but I'm not absolutely
certain of that. It seems to me that we had a
local counsel, William Horan, draw up these docu-
ments, and it seems to me that it was done on
a formal basis.
Kit. LIGHTi But in any way, you paid him
rent?
THE WITNESS! Tes, we did.
tat. LIGHTj And paid the rent for how long?
THE WITNESSi Six more months.
MR. LICHTt Tou don't mind the interruption?
KR. BAKERI NO.
Q You're still of the company is still on
the site?
Tes, sir.
When is the last time you paid rent to Mr. DeBart?
The end of the lease, October of '78.
When was the last time an employee of your company
or yourself visited the site prior to the institut.Lor
of this lawsuit?
Well, to my knowledge, there was no business
transacted on that site after January '79. It
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might have been that a couple few loads were
brought in, but again, I can't pin down, you
know, when somebody might have gone over there.
Your records would reflect any shipment of drums
into that site to your company?
Yes. Yes, we would have invoiced those. He
would have invoiced the stuff that came in.
I believe, you described in detail for me the
procedure with respect to loads picked up by
drivers. Can you do the same for me for loads
directed by — loads directly to the company?
By the customers? Yes, there was to be a bill
of lading for the truck drivers and supposed
to be a receiving ticket for drivers from what
was on the load.
Receiving ticket would have been made out by an
employee on your site?
Yes.
Was that done in all cases?
I hope so.
If there was no receiving ticket or no bill of
lading, would there be any way the company could
be billed for that delivery of that material?
No.
Based on the receiving tickets that you did have
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which may or may not reflect all the loads directl;
were bills made out to the companies who delivered
the material?
The invoices were submitted to people, and general:.y
speaking as far as I know, they were paid.
Can you describe for me, please, what kinds of
companies, customers, other suppliers that would
have received invoices from Industrial Tectonics -
excuse me, strike that.
You indicated, I believe, that your
company used numbered invoices, is that correct?
Yes.
Were these sequences unique for the Chemical
Division, or were they sequentially to the
Chemical Division itself?
Mo, the Chemical Division despite objection by
my accountant were kept completely divorced —
separate bank accounts, separate colored checks,
everything was maintained in completely separate
activity.
So, the Chemical corporation —
Division.
Division of your corporation whose sole place of
activity, whose office function of By-Products
may have been at 15th Avenue site?
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Well, we did the same buainess of office sites —
Olympia Field, Chicago Heights. But as far
as being activitiea, physicial activitiea, of
that chemical, they were all accomplished at
the 15th Avenue site.
For whatever pickup delivery site waa?
Ho, to or from that site.
Okay. Could you describe for me the kind of
people who would receive invoices from Induatrial
Tectonica Chemical Division?
Certainly. A. American Can.
•o, I mean customers of waste recipients of
empty drums, gasoline companies, if you did that.
That's the kind of things I'm interested in.
I don't understand.
Claaaifications of people.
Nell, companies?
Well, yon would send invoices to all customera than
would provide you with the raw waste drums?
Tes, people such as the can manufacturing companian.
Okay. But the customers as — a customer supplying
druBS of waste is sufficient for that. You would
give invoices to all customers who would supply
you drums of wast-e?
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1 A. Correct.
2 ft You would give invoice* to companiea whoa you
3 sent barrel* of the reclainabla material*?
4 MR. LIGHT: Solvent*.
s MR. BAKERi Q Such •• freon and the dry
cleaning fluid, correct?
. In aome of those caaea, my recollection ia — it
a waa little far back. My recollection ia that
9 waate Reclamation actually reported and aent ua
10 a check for what they read their analyaia metered,
and then there was no baaia for ua to invoice
,2 th*».
13 ft That waa —
. That waa reclaimable solvent*.
That waa reclaiaabla aolventa. Tou did not re-
16 claim aolvent* and — there waa no baaia. We
17 had record* of ahipment, and there nay have been
is an invoice there, but we could not invoice
19 becauae there waa no baaia for —
20 ft Did you invoice the company whoa you aent freon
21 and dry cleaning fluida?
22 A. No, air. We had to wait until they received
23 and sent a check.
24 ft You aent basically empty barrela?
25 *. *e invoiced them, yea. Same baaia.
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I believe, yon disposed of some varnish products?
Varnish -- reuseable varnish that was invoiced
oat also.
That was invoiced out?
Calvuat Container in Banmond.
The other products that went out of there resulted
in invoices from you instead of to you?
Yes.
You had to pay for people to take this?
Correct.
Can you think of any other instance where you
invoiced some company on behalf of the Chemical
Division?
I can't. I'm sorry.
Anything else that would have been expenses to
your operation such as electricity or?
Oh, yeah, sore. There was payroll, power, fuel.
Ne were paying off some equipment that was
purchased.
Did you purchase any equipment from anyone other
than DeBart or DeHart's corporation?
Yes. Yes, sure.
What?
We purchased bulldozer« from Nackey Ferguson,
it was a frontend loader. We purchased a rebuilt
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Bobcat which i» also a frontend loader from Atlaa
Material Handling. We purchased a couple of van
trailers from Pine Trailer Sales in Chicago.
MR. BAKERi Off the record.
(Whereupon, there was adiscussion off the record.)
THE WITNESS: There are obviously other
things there. There are tires and tire repairs
and a whole airad of things that one expects to
run money on in operating a business.
Is there any other office building or facility
of bailding maintained at this 15th Avenue site?
Tes. There were two van-type trailers, not, yon
know, vans without the wheels, you know, sitting
on their chassis that were on the site. One of
them housed sosie equipment, and one of them
housed the desk and heater and it was where we
had * telephone coming into the site and stored
things like gloves and boots, things of that sort.
Could you tell me where they were located in
Exhibit 2?
In Exhibit 2? The one trailer is still visible.
It is immediately east of the curve linear group
of drums and that housed the equipment. The other
trailer is no longer visible. It was located
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in an area which is partially empty and partially
blocked by drums.
ft What happened to that trailer?
A. It was stolen,
ft When you say, "van", do yon mean an enclosed
bodied trailer, or do you mean a self-powered true)?
A. Ho, no. A van-type trailer. A semi-trailer,
ft Okay. Did you also have vans, meaning self contained
trucks like — milk trucks?
1. No.
ft So, when you say "van* throughout this conversation,
you mean an enclosed body?
A. 44 trailer, eight foot high — so many feet high
that is pulled by a tractor,
ft Thank you.
Do you know whether or not Mr. Tenny
was on this site during the summer of 1979?
i. I don't know whether he was or not, but I would
see no reason why he would have bean. I don't
know.
ft Were you aware of any activities of drums on the
site operated by Industrial Tectonics during the
summer of 1979?
A. Some varnish drums were shipped to, were picked
up, and delivered off the site to Calumet Contraine r;
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1 but I don't remember the exact date. I could
2 find the invoice and tall you.
3 Q. So, someone from Industrial Tectonics moved drums
4 off the site to Calumet Container during the
5 summer of 1979?
6 A. I didn't tell you whether it was summer, but
7 some time in '79, yes. I recollect there was
8 some, and I can't tell yon how many. I don't
9 know if it was 20 or 80 or what number in-between.
10 ft Do you now remember any delivery of drums to
11 the site on —
12 A. Ho. If there .were any delivery of drums in '79,
13 very early ia the year, January, February, and
14 I don't recollect. We had no employees beyond
15 that period of time. Robinson at that time
16 had even left the By-Producta operation, as
17 I recollect, and I remember some conversations
is with Jack saying that he wanted
19 to buy some of the varnish, and I told him we
20 didn't have anybody to deal with it.
21 ft Other than yourself and your wife, who is the
22 treasurer of Industrial Tectonics and the book-
23 keeper for Industrial Tectonics Chemical Division,
24 were any other officers or — or employees,
25 officers of the corporation involved in the
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1 Chemical Division oparation?
2 JL No. Tha only othar officer i* David Licht,
3 in hi* oparation —- and ha*a functioning a* an
4 officer of tha company and i* general coun**l
5 to tha conpany, bat all of hi* ar* New York
6 baaed until tha visit we made to tba aita
7 several waak* ago. H* had n*var seen tha oparation.
8 ft Ha had navar aaan tha *it* prior to th* institu-
9 tional lawauit?
10 A. That1* right.
11 (X Did any employee of your othar division of
12 Induatrial Taqhtonica parfora any work on bahalf
13 of tha Cha»ical Division?
14 »• Tha Industrial Tectonics employees are all tha
15 people that wa have talkad about — th* people
16 on th* sit* or Delores Licht. There ar* no
17 oth*r employees. Tha activities that are
is carried out under tha of Xnudstrial
19 Techtonics and th* equipment activities ar*
20 basically complimentary to the engineering
21 company that I own, and sine* we don't want to
22 run, for example, if a piece of equipment is
23 to ba bought for a company, an energy company,
24 we don't want to run through the engineering
2s company client's book*. So, we run it through
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Industrial Tectonics books for the clients and
Delores handled the paperwork.
So, other than you and Delores, there are no
employed by Tectonics Chemical Division for the
other division?
That's correct.
What happened to the equipment that Industrial
Tectonics purchased for this use of the site?
The dump truck is on site at the present time
or adjacent to it on the road. The vacuum truck,
the Bobcat, and the Caterpiller frontend loader
were moved over to the By-Product* management
site in Sohererville.
Are they being utilised by that company over
a day to day basis or being stored?
Basically, they are being stored, but, you know,
they use them sometimes -- from time to time.
Does that constitute the operational business
use by Industrial Techtonics of an Industrial
site?
The two vans are over at Schererville also.
There was a device for deheading drums that
was bought and never used that I'm — I'm sure
is over by By-Produats Management. I can't
think of other things. There are other things
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wa purchased by DeHart that wara actually navar
dalivarad, that wara actually supposed to ba
ours. Thara ara a numbar of tanks that wara
not on tha site that ha had somewhere else, that
ha was supposed to dalivar and navar delivarad.
Tha Chemical Division of Industrial Taehtonica
has axistad sinca some tine in '77 until today,
is that corraet?
Yes.
And tha records, checks, and so forth of that
division have baan maintained separately from
your other business?
Tas, sir.
And where ara they housed, sir?
414 Nest Lincoln Highway is where they ara.
And where within that site are they housed?
Within the offices of Industrial Tachtonies and
Charles Licht Engineering at the lower level
of the building there and they're in some file
cabinets.
It takes more than one file cabinet for the
records of this?
No, it really doesn't, but Dalores has tha files
in a number of drawers — in a numbar of, I
think, two adjacent file cabinets.
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Apart from your permit application* and corres-
pondanca — your correspondence with the state,
various state agencies, your invoices, and
shipping records with your customers, the corres-
pondence with your O'Clair, Wisconsin, recipients
of the recoverable solvents, your correspondence
and bookkeeping antrias and invoices to the
Acme Barrel, your bills and checks paying the
bills from tha disposal and transportation companies
for tha disposal of tha material, your lease
with DaHart, and thraa bills of sale, tall me
what tha records of Industrial Tectonics Chemical
Division consist of?
Wall, there ara paid invoices for all tha equip-
ment supplies and miscellaneous activities,
insurance documents.
Payroll records?
Payroll records.
Employee records?
Employee records. Wall, I have those with me,
yes.
What else, if anything?
Wall, thera ara larga amounts of paperwork, and
frankly, Mr. Baker, I have not been in those
files for a long time. And I never really did
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go in the file* with any depth sine* Delores
Licht is a vary competent record keeper and
bookkeeper, and I'm sure that the records are
there in totality that'* necessary to run the
business.
Did you ever have any relative of DeHart on your
payroll?
Marvin DeHart, Ernie DeHart'» son.
Could you describe hia for us, please?
Well, he's a younger version of his father. He's
short, maybe a little bit taller than his father,
•aybe five-seven. Probably weighs 165, stocky —
huskily built fellow, red hair, balding. I
really, you know, as far as detail of his eye
color or anything, I don't know.
Did he wear glasses?
Ho, I don't believe he did.
Do you know what occupations he had other than
working for you?
Well, he worked for his father for a while, but
they had their falling out and he worked for
us. He worked for By-Product* Management after
our operation had shut down.
Okay. In what capacity did he work for you?
He worked on the dock emptying drums.
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Undar the supervision of Robinson?
Under Robin»on.
Bow long did he work for you?
Hot vary — three, four month*.
Did ha coma in at tha and of your enterprise or
beginning?
Ho, toward tha middle. Ha was not tha beginning
two, three months, four months into it that he
came to work for us and then left before the end.
Aad weat immediately to By-Products?
I don't remember if he went immediately to
By-Products.
Do yon know what other occupation he had?
Well, I just scanned his personal form a moment
ago -- a couple hours ago. Seems to me that
I recollect that he was high school education.
Is that the same educational background that his
father had or don't you know?
I don't know his father's background at all.
Was he married?
I believe, he was.
Do you know whether he had any children?
I don't know.
Do yon have his forms there in your files there?
Yes, okay. Yes, here it is. Yes, I have his
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forma, and I'm looking at both the application
for employment that ha filled oat on November 29,
1977, and also his withholding oartificata,
fadaral and state.
And what was tha data on thoee?
12-28-77. On tha fadaral, November 29, 1977,
and on tha stata, December 28, 1977.
How many dependents did ha list on there?
Three.
Anywhere on tha form does it list tha names of
those dependents?
Ho, sir.
Does it indicate tha age of those dependants?
No, sir.
Does it indicate tha aga of those dependents?
Ho, sir.
MR. BAKER: Off tha record.
(Whereupon, there was adiscussion off tha record.)
MR. BAKER: Q What association did Mr.
Eagan and Mr. Tanny have with Industrial Tectonics
Chemical Division?
Whan tha chemical operations ware established
basis for doing this was that Tenny and Eagan
were each going to put in an amount of money
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and Industrial Tectonic* was going to put in
a slightly larger amount of the money to be
able to finance the initial purchase of the
customer list and certainly the equipment that
had to be purchased from the DeBart's or from
other sources.
What forar was this business to take a new
corporation or Industrial Tectonics?
Industrial Tectonics, I was presided to let
this industrial corporation to come in auspicious
of Industrial Tectonics simply because we know —
because we were going to have to go into the
outside investors to put in distillation equip-
ment and certainly strick the relative to blue
sky.
MH. LIGHTi Flooding of new capital.
THE WITWESSr Capital and blue sky laws
which were existing — seen low. It was not a
very positive corporation that would have more
laid on it. So, this is why
I was persuading Industrial Tectonics to become
the base for this thing.
Did Mr. Tenny put any money into this enterprise?
Mr. Tenny put money in. Mr. Eagan bought in.
How much?
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They each put in about $11,000 — maybe a
little — maybe 11 or $12,000.
And Induatrial Tectonic* put in any money?
Induatrial Tectonic* aupplied a total of — well,
Delores Licht put in about 5,000 aa a loan to
Induatrial Teetonica, and then Induatrial
Tectonioa put in a total of about $20,000.
The agreement that waa never consumatad waa
that each of then were going to put in 15,000
and Industrial Teetonica waa going to have to
put the 20 in and after that, each would own
30 percent of .the company and I would retain
ownerahip of 40 percent of the company.
They paid that money in with no agreement
having been reduced to writing?
There waa an agreement that waa never aigned.
The agreement existed in an unsigned form in
Induatrial Teetonica?
Yea, air.
Bow much did you pay Mr. DeBart for the customer
liat?
The total amount of the money was — that waa
paid to DeBart waa something around 40 —
somewhere in the 40 plua thousand range.
MR. LIGHT: That would include also the
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1 equipaent?
2 THE WITNESS: The equipaent and everything
3 else. Actually, we ran into a problea in
4 terna of custoaer list as to whether or not
s they are depreciable. In this question there
6 is nothing, bat it is. Bat oar accountant
7 felt that we should put in aore value into
8 equipaent than perhaps the equipment was 11-
9 terally worth and undervalue the eustoaer list
10 to be able not to get into a fight with the
11 IKS relative to depreciating the custoaer list.
12 And so that was what was actually accoaplished.
13 Soae of this equipaent was grossly overvalued.
14 ft What is your educational background?
15 A. I'a a graduate engineer. I've got a degree in
ie Technical Engineering froa the Massachusetts
17 Institute of Technology. I also have a business
is in engineering administration in tha saae school.
19 0- Can you give ae the date of those two degrees?
20 *• The Technical 1948 and Business Adainistration
21 degree in 1948.
22 MX. BERMAHi is that a Bachelor's?
23 THX WITNESS: Both are Bachelor's.
24 MR. BAKER: Q Do you have any post-graduate
25 degrees?
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No, sir.
What wa« your employment following your graduation
I worked for American Steel Foundries in East
Chicago, Indiana, for a abort period of time.
I helped found Sepprioy, Incorporated,
S-e-p-p-r-i-o-y.
What ia that?
Nickel and copper smelting operation in Chicago.
Does it exist today?
It exists.
Do you have any part of the operation today?
No.
MR. LIGHT: Off the record.
(Whereupon, there was adiscussion off the record.)
THE WITNESS: Sepprioy, Incoporated, I
worked for them from 1950 to 1953. I worked
for Apex Smelting Company, of very large
business for zinc and magnesium reclaimer.
And where was that located?
In Cleveland, Ohio, for a short period of time.
I worked then approximately 14 years in a
variety of both engineering and management
positions with the D.S. Reduction Company in
East Chicago, Indiana. And then in February of
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1968, I left the U.S. Reduction Company. I
was vice-president for Engineering Technical
Service and set up my own counseling engineering
company and later incorporated and then a
year or so later, I set up Industrial Tectonics.
Does Industrial Tectonics have a private
for the year?
Yes. The company because of the — I advised
you earlier but not on this record, so let's
put it on the record.
Industrial Tectonics was originally
for the express purpose of air pollution
mechanics that I eould not get anybody in
the commercial world to invest in and this was
a unit of a type that was very, very advanta-
geous for the use and secondary low smeling
operation.
So, I set up the company basically
to provide this. Over the years we have
done other work. He have purchased equipment
for resale, some were working for a current
client, and we purchased it through there
without markup, but we are not dealing with
a current client or something that does not
relate to a current price. He take a reasonable
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1 markup on these Items we retail — Cotec
2 Division has always shown a profit. The
3 Chemical Division has never. Unfortunately
4 my accountant was not willing to set up two
5 independent statements so that the audit for
6 the return for '77 through '78 and '79 will
7 show the combined, and I will — I will be
8 very pleaaed to insist that my account breaks
9 those apart for me and show what the Chemical
10 Division did.
11 0 Did you have some to put on any other annual
12 report on this profit and loss statement?
13 A. Hell, It put out no profit and only report
14 put out that goes to the IRS.
is & You were contemplating, I believe, taking out-
16 side financing for the chemical company?
17 *. Yes.
is 0> Did you make any report in anticipating of
19 seeking that financing?
20 *• Yes. There was a prospectus that was developed.
21 It's in the file. I would be pleased to
22 see to it that you have a copy, if you want.
23 MR. LIGHTi I may ask why you're asking
24 for this?
25 - M R . BAKER: Just —
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MR. LIGHT: I merely mentioned it because
I know the aubjact matter of our lawsuit,
and while I'm not objecting to the answer,
you know, I question whether —
MR. BAKER: I'm just trying to find out
what records existed relative to the operation
out there to see whether or not they were
of importance to the invoices of income and
show the barrel and the amounts of the solvents
to any other place.
MR. LICET: How, I understand your point.
MB. BAXER: Q Do yon have any contractual
agreements which were reduced to writing
with By-Products?
Mo, sir.
Other than tlm lease of trucks, have you paid
money to By-Products for anything on behalf
of Industrial Tectonics?
I don't recollect, but it's possible that
we paid the lab for analytical work some time
or another. I'm not sure if it was done through
the engineering or Licht Engineering or if
was Industrial Tectonics. I know that we
ocassionally pay them funds, but I'm pretty
sure it was through — for engineering work,
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for third party and not —
As far as yon know, did Industrial Tectonics
ever receive any drums at the site containing
cyanida?
Absolutely not.
Are you aware of any trucks having existed at
the site or having existed at the site contain-
ing cyanide?
I'a not aware of any cyanide at that site.
MX. BAXMi I have no further questions.
MR. LICHTi I have no questions.
I should like to read the transcript,
and after the transcript is read by »e, it
will then be submitted for signature by
Mr. Charles Licht.
(Witness excused.)
(FURTHER DEPONZNT SAITH NOT.)
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C E R T I F I C A T E
I, Branda J. Cualler, being a qualified andcompetent shorthand court reporter, and being firstduly authorized to administer said oath, do herebycertify there appeared before me at 507 State Street,Hammond, Indiana, on the 4th day of January, 1980,the deponent, CHARLES A. LIGHT, who was thereupon firstduly sworn by ma to testify the truth and nothing butthe truth in response to questions propounded to saiddeponent at the taking of the foregoing deposition,relating to the above captioned cause now pending andundetermined in said court.
I further certify that I then and therereported in machine shorthand the testimony so givenat said tine and place, and that the testimony wasthen reduced to typewriting from my original shorthandnotes, and the foregoing typewritten transcript is atrue and correct record of said testimony given at saidtime and place.
I further certify that reading by the witnessand signature to the deposition were waived by theparties on the record.
Dated at Hammond,of February,1980.
Indiana, on the day
C.S.R.