7/30/2019 What Changes and What Doesn't an Interview With Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche

1/3

What Changes and What Doesn't: An interview with Dzongsar

Khyentse Rinpoche

by Kelly Roberts

Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche is an outstanding Buddhist teacher and director of The Cup, arguablythe first great Tibetan feature film. Hes young, thoroughly modern, and deeply concerned aboutcorruption of the dharma. He challenges Western Buddhists to uphold the unchangable truths ofBuddhism while letting go of its cultural trappings. Too often, he says, we do the reverse. DzongsarKhyentse is interviewed for the Shambhala Sun by his student, Kelly Roberts.

Kelly Roberts: I just wanted to say that your film, The Cup, reminded me so much of you,particularly when the Coca Cola can dissolved into Manjushri.Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche: Really.Kelly Roberts: In many places in your film, you replace traditional items with modern ones. Forinstance, the offering bowls on the shrine are replaced by the Coke can and the prayer flags on theroof of the monastery are replaced by a satellite dish. Im wondering why you did this, becauseusually you are so worried about Buddhist tradition being corrupted.

Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche: This is something that I want to tell my fellow Tibetans andBhutanesethat modern technology is not a threat to so-called traditional Buddhism. Their societyis just beginning to be exposed to the world of the fax, the telephone and the internet. They mayfeel uncomfortable with change, but the fact is we can no longer go to any place where there is nomodern technology.

We cannot avoid technologyits already at the doorstep, if not already inside our house.So instead of allowing these things to influence us, the wise thing to do is make use of their power

and speedto be the influence rather than the influenced. We can use the telephone, the web andtelevision to teach, instead of them teaching us. We can use their power and the speed.Kelly Roberts: You have compared your film to a modern version of a traditional thangka paintingor a Buddhist statue.Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche: Every culture has a different way of telling a story, and I felt thatmaybe I should just tell a story in a Tibetan way.Kelly Roberts: Would that be your way of teaching?

Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche: No, not at all. Buddhism has a long tradition of using images torepresent wisdom and compassion. In its 2,500-year history, we can see that Buddhism hasadopted many methods of expressing the dharmathrough painting, sculpture, architecture,performing arts. These existed even during the Buddhas time. The Buddha himself in the VinayaSutra discusses how to paint the five realms and the twelve interdependent links as we see in thewheel of life. So there is an old tradition in Buddhism of using images, and film can do that, too.Why not? For me, film can be modern day thangka.Kelly Roberts: How?Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche: Well, what is a thangka painting? It is an aid for your visualization.In the same way, film can help with visualization, perhaps even more effectively. For example, ifyou want to show what the hell realms are like, film could do that much better than a singlepainting.Kelly Roberts: Dont you ever worry, though, that with modernization certain aspects of the old

tradition will be lost?Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche: As long as the fundamental view of Buddhism is not lost, there is noproblem. We may try for sentimental reasons to preserve the traditional aspects as much aspossible, but they will eventually change. Dont forget that the customs and traditions that we aretrying to preserve today were once modern and progressive.Kelly Roberts: In the film, the Abbot writes about his wish that, Nyima and Palden would continueto uphold the Buddhas teachings according to these modern times. What is it youre trying to saywith that?Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche: It doesnt mean they will change the Buddhas fundamental view.That should never be changed. I have met people in the West who are excessively attached to theexternal trappings of Buddhism. There is all this sentimental attachment to Tibetan customs andculture, and the actual Buddhist view is overlooked. In fact, I have heard that in creating a so-called American Buddhism, some people are saying, Okay, maybe the Buddhas view should be

changed, now that Buddhism is in America. And thats not good.

I would prefer that Americans really stick with the Buddhas view: the emptiness ofinherent existence, that everything composite is impermanent, and so on. It doesnt matter if theyleave out Tibetan culture. The really important thing is that they should accept the dharma. They

7/30/2019 What Changes and What Doesn't an Interview With Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche

2/3

should not worry about trying to design something better suited to Americans. The Buddha was an

omniscient being. What he said was good for all sentient beings, and that includes us 2,500 yearslater. Nothing additional is necessary now.

I see Westerners wearing chubas and showing off their malas. But I think the more peopledo that, the more they forget the essence, the actual point of the Buddhas teaching. Its amazingto see how eager some people are to adopt what is not essential, and throw out what is essential!Kelly Roberts: I was a bit surprised that the Abbot would say something like this, since he is soattached to his homeland and its traditions, and doesnt understand much about the modern ways.

Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche: Although many of these older, experienced Tibetan teachers areattached to their homeland and might seem rigid, beneath this rigidity there is an openness.Sometimes its quite surprising to see certain lamas incorporating modern ways of life into theancient Buddhist thinking, especially when you know Tibetans. Tibetans can be so narrow-minded,so racist. They have such a superiority complex. Some of them are like missionaries who go toother countries and demand that the native people learn their culture. But at the same time,

teachers like Chgyam Trungpa Rinpoche created within the Tibetan wisdom lineage a space toaccommodate Japanese, French, British, American ways of teaching.Kelly Roberts: You say about the monks in the movie that Buddhism is their philosophy and socceris their religion. Do you think someone could become enlightened by playing soccer?Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche: You never know. Maybe. Some of the saints of the past, themahasiddhas, achieved enlightenment by telling lies or playing flutes. So if you meet the right

master, and if you have the merit, why not?Kelly Roberts: Because youre now in the film world, you seem to have become quite famous andare living a bit in the lap of luxury. Are you getting attached to it?Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche: So much. Im really going downhill! Im getting more and moreattached to this comfortable life. Even a small sesame seed in my bed bothers me. I used to travelin Indian buses, bumping along the whole night with Hindi film music blaring away, and stillmanage to do a lot of things the next morning. Nowadays, I might be driving in a limousine, butwhen things go wrong, I get very irritated. That is why I really think I need to shut myself in

retreat far away in India.Mind you, many other Rinpoches, from my impure perception, seem to be getting that

way, too. They are far too attached to the comfortable life. The life of simplicity seems to be lessand less important and a life of distraction seems to be getting more and more popular.Kelly Roberts: Do you tire of samsara?Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche: No, no, I am very much in love with samsara, not tired at all. Well,

perhaps a little, thanks to years and years of being brainwashed when I was younger. Theimpermanence and futility of samsara does come to mind from time to time. But it only comes fornine seconds, and then it disappears for another nine months.Kelly Roberts: You have always said that of the eight worldly dharmas, you have the greatestweakness for praise. How have you worked with all the praise you have received since your filmcame out?Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche: The Buddha said that if you know a trap is a trap, you will not be

caught. The Buddha is talking about mindfulness. But mindfulness is something that is foreign tome, so of course I get very much trapped by all the praise and criticism. Having said that, mygurus are very special, and I always say that if I do have a little bit of a spiritual quality, itsbecause of my teachers.

I remember something His Holiness Dilgo Khyentse once told me. I used to be very wild,and sometimes people would report my actions to him in hope that he would scold me and

discipline me. But instead, he would tell me who it was who told on me and would make a game ofit. He used to say, Dont worry. You must remember that whenever there is one person out therewho doesnt like you or who thinks you are crazy, there will be a hundred people who are going tolike you. And similarly, whenever there is one person who likes you, you shouldnt get too excitedabout it, because there will be a hundred people who cant stand you. So liking and disliking arecompletely irrelevant.Kelly Roberts: Speaking of being wild, you talked on The Roseanne Show, as well as on NPR, about

visiting strip clubs. I dont know how many people would view that favorably. Why did you go?Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche: I didnt have any profound reason. But it does show that youshouldnt come to me if you are looking for inspiration.Kelly Roberts: Why do you sometimes wear monks robes?Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche: In Buddhism, we talk about several different stages of degeneration.Theres one degenerated time that Buddha called tagtsam zinpey du, the time when monasticrobes are maintained just as a mark or symbol. Thats where we are now. At least Im trying to

hold on to that symbol.Kelly Roberts: Do you have any regrets regarding your film?Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche: A lot of regrets, but I think I will take the regrets as stepping stones

7/30/2019 What Changes and What Doesn't an Interview With Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche

3/3

for my further learning.

Kelly Roberts: It seems that one of your aims in the film was to demystify the Western idea ofTibet and its culture. Why is this so important?Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche: Preconceptions are not so good because they always mislead you.Kelly Roberts: So you tried to show the ordinary side of monastic life and how that was profound.Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche: Whatever I do, I have no profound motivation. I just wanted tomake a film.Kelly Roberts: But your film contained quite profound teaching.

Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche: That depends on the person watching. Not everybody sees it thatway. Maybe the success was just an accident.Kelly Roberts: You talk about your next film being the life of the Buddha.Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche: Only if I get enough money.Kelly Roberts: Isnt The Cup making enough money to finance another film?Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche: No, not nearly enough. Not even 10% of what I need to make my

next film.Kelly Roberts: So the life of the Buddha that you want to make is on an epic scale.Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche: Yes.Kelly Roberts: You must have done at least a hundred interviews by now. Are there any questionswhich you are surprised were never asked?Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche: I am surprised that no one has ever asked if Im gay or not.

Kelly Roberts: Are you gay, Rinpoche?Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche: I have a tendency.Kelly Roberts: If you were going to ask yourself a question, what would it be?Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche: I only have one big fear, thats all. Not a question.Kelly Roberts: What is your fear?Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche: As much as I want to be successful, I also have this growing fearthat I will become a prisoner of fame.Kelly Roberts: If you could have anything in the world, Rinpoche, what would make you happiest?

Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche: Spiritually, I would be so happy if I could see my twenty past livesand twenty future lives. That would probably give me some renunciation mind. On an ordinarylevel, I would be very happy if I could get my act together and finish the novels that I am writing.Kelly Roberts: I hear that you just offered 100,000 butter lamps at the Boudhnath Stupa in Nepal.What makes you happier, doing that or making films?Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche: I can definitely say that I am happier offering the butter lamps.

Kelly Roberts: Thank you, Rinpoche.Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche: Youre welcome.

What Changes and What Doesn't: An interview with Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche, Shambhala Sun,November 2000.