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Transcript of “282 with Neil Strauss”

Bulletproof Radio podcast #282

Bulletproof Radio Podcast #282, Neil Strauss

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DaveAsprey: Heyit'sDaveAspreyBeforewegettotoday'sepisode,let'stalkalittlebitaboutonlinedating.It'salittleknownfactthatin1991ImighthavebeenoneofthefirstpeopletohaveanonlinedatebecauseIhackedacutegirl'sterminalwhenIworkedatthecomputerlabsatUCSantaBarbarasoIcouldfigureoutwhoshewas.Wedidendupdatingforafewmonths.Thatwasanonlinedate,butthatwasbackwhenitwasn'tcool.

WithValentine'sDaycomingupthereisn'tabettertimetotakeadvantageoftheinternettofindyourperfectmatchnowthatwehavebigdataandalgorithmsandthingslikethat.It'swaymoreefficientthangoingtoabarandthere'snoalcoholsoyoudon'thavetoworryaboutahangoverwreckingyourperformancethenextday.

IrecommendeHarmonybecauseyouactuallyhaveprettygoododdsoffindingamatch.Theydeliverover10millionmatchesdaily,and600,000coupleswhometoneHarmonyhaveactuallytiedtheknot.That'saboutfourpercentofallUSmarriages,whichisprettyamazingforonewebsite.ThefounderofeHarmonywasactuallyaclinicalpsychologist,soyou'regettingthebenefitofover30yearsofresearchintowhatmakessuccessfulrelationshipsworkallinanappthatyoucanuseonlineorevenonyourphone.That'sprettycool.

Youdon'thavetoworryaboutallyourfriendsseeingthatyou'relookingeitherbecauseyouhavetobeamemberonthesiteandseeamatchtohaveeachother'sphotos,sononeofthisswiperight,swipeleftkindofthing.

HeadonovertoeHarmony.comandenterthepromocodeJANUARYLOVEtosave50percentofftheregularpriceforasixmonthmembership.That'seHarmony.com,JANUARYLOVE.

Announcer: Bulletproofradio.Astateofhighperformance.

DaveAsprey: Heyit'sDaveAspreywithBulletproofRadio.Today'scoolfactofthedayisthattheancientEgyptiansuseddriedcrocodiledungasacontraceptive.Theymadesomethingcalledapessary.Apessaryistheearliestcontraceptivedeviceforwomeneverknown,atleastthatweknowabout.Pessariesareobjectsormixturesofstuffthatyouputinthevaginatokeepspermfromswimmingupwhereitshouldn'tgo.TheEgyptiansdidthisstartingasearlyas1850BC.Itwascrocodiledung,honey,andsodiumcarbonate,whichisactuallykindofgross.

NeilStrauss: Howmanyinfectionsdidthatleadto?

DaveAsprey: Theydon'treallyknowfromthefossilorarchaeologicalrecords,butIsuspectnotthatmanybecausethere'sthatwholegutbiomething.Anotherfactthat'stotallyunknownisthatintheMiddleEastwhenpeoplewouldgetdysentery,Britishsoldiersaskedthelocalswhatdoyoudo.Theysaidyoufollowacamelaroundandyoueatfreshcamel


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poopandit'llfixthedysentery.Tothisdaythatstillworks,butIhaven'ttriedit,Ijusthearit'sgood.

NeilStrauss: Incredible.

DaveAsprey: Now.We'vegrossedeveryoneoutandwe'vealreadystartedtalking,butIhaven'tintroducedyou.Letmeintroduceyou.ThisisnoneotherthanseventimeNewYorkTimesBestseller,NeilStrauss.NeilisverywellknownforEmergency,forTheGame,andforhisnewbook,whichisreallygoodcalledTheTruth:AnUncomfortableBookAboutRelationships.Neilwelcometotheshow.It'sanhonortohaveyou.

NeilStrauss: Thanksforhavingmeon.I'velistenedtoitsomuchsoI'mhappytobehere.

DaveAsprey: Wow.Asalistenerthat'sevencooler.Yourotherbook,RulesoftheGame,Ididn'tmentionbutImeansevenbooks.Idon'tthinkI'vereadallseven,butthefirsttimeIbecamefamiliarwithyourworkwasactuallyEmergency.

NeilStrauss: Great.

DaveAsprey: Whichgoeswayback,whichwas...Bythewayifyou'regoingtogetabookfromNeilStrauss,youshouldbuyTheTruthbecauseit'saprofoundbookandit'smaybetheantithesisofEmergency.WasthatyourfirstNewYorkTimesBestseller?

NeilStrauss: No.Firstonewaswayback.IdidabookwithMarilynMansoncalledTheLongHardRoadOutofHellthatwasjustacrazyintenserockbio.

DaveAsprey: Youinspiredme.Idon'tthinkinthetimeswe'vemetI'veevermentionedthis.

NeilStrauss: No.

DaveAsprey: IwentandIdidtheurbanescapeandevasioncourse.Thisonewheretheykidnapyouandteachyoubreakoutofhandcuffsandallthisstuff.

NeilStrauss: Picklocksandhotwirecars.

DaveAsprey: Yeah.Infactintheclasswithmewasagirlyouweredatingatthetime.

NeilStrauss: Whowasthat?

DaveAsprey: Idon'tremember.Itwassixyearsagoorsomething.

NeilStrauss: Noway.

DaveAsprey: Shewasreallyhot.


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NeilStrauss: Uhhuh.

DaveAsprey: TherewasaPlayboyBunnyintheclasstoo.IwaslikeI'vebeenlockedinthesametrunkasthePlayboyBunny.Mylife'scomplete.Thiswasthecoolestthingthough.YourwholeexperiencetherewasthissetofexperimentswhereIwanttoknowwhatit'sliketokillandeatandanimal.Iwanttoknowwhatit'sliketopushmylimits.Youdidallthesecrazythings.It'sstilloneofmyfavoritebooks.

NeilStrauss: He'sactuallycomingtomyhousethisweekendbecauseI'mteachingabunchoffriendshowtodoallthisstuff.

DaveAsprey: Thelockpickkindofstuff?

NeilStrauss: Yeah.

DaveAsprey: Kevin-

NeilStrauss: KevinReeveiscomingtomyhomethisweekend.It'sactually,ifyouhadn'ttakenit,IwasgoingtoinviteyoutocomeFridayandSaturdaytodoit.

DaveAsprey: Ohwow.

NeilStrauss: It'llbesomeinterestingpeopletoo.

DaveAsprey: Imightbeabletodropin,ifwecan…

NeilStrauss: Yeah.Dropin.Maybeifyouwanttobeontheseconddaywhattheydoisthey,onceyou'velearnedalltheskills,I'mreallyintopracticalapplicationssoashedoesintheclass,whattheytheyistheyhandcuffyou,taseyou,waterboardyou,giveyousomestress,dropyouoffsomewhereandyouhavetocompletethesemissionswhilebeinghuntedbybountyhunters.IfyouwanttomaybebeabountyhunteronSunday,youcansearchfortheotherstudents.

DaveAsprey: IfI'm-ohwait,I'mgoingtobeinLasVegas.Darn.

NeilStrauss: Darn.

DaveAsprey: Ifyou'relisteningtothis,wemaybejustonlygotalittlebitofftrack.

NeilStrauss: Right?

DaveAsprey: Here'sthedealifyouwantedtoreallypushyourlimits,whenIdidthis,wheneveritwasfive,sixyearsago,IthoughtIwasreasonablycalm.Itpushedallmybuttons.Iwasflippingout.Havingbountyhunterschasingyou,eventhoughyouknowononelevelthey'renotgoingtoreallykillyou,butiftheycatchyoutheyhandcuffyouandtheydrop


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youoffinsomepartoftownwhereyouhavenophone,noresourcesunlessyouhidsomethinginadumpstersomewhere.It'sreallyrawandprimalandvisceral.

WhenIwasdoneI'mlike,okayIneedtogetbettercontrolofmynervoussystembecausemyfightorflightwasheavilyactively.

NeilStrauss: Yeah.Performingunderstressisawholenewexperience.Theyputyouunderstressallofasuddenalotofyourskillsgoaway.

DaveAsprey: Yeah.Thisisoneofthosethingswhereit'skindofabucketlistthing.Ifyou'resittingthereinyourcubiclegoingohmyGodthat'ssocooloryou'redrivingrightnow,youmightactuallyconsidercheckingthatoutasoneofthosethingslikeforabirthdaygiftorsomething.Ittakesthreedaysandwhenyou'redoneyou'llbeabletoopendoorsyou'renotsupposedtobeabletoopenwithlockpicks,it’sincredible

NeilStrauss: It'scomeinincrediblyhandy,thelockpickingandthesetofJigglerstobreakintocars,breakintoyourowncarofcourse.

DaveAsprey: Yeah.Ofcourse.Right.

NeilStrauss: Ofcourse.

DaveAsprey: IwilladmitthatonetimewhenIreallyhadtopeeinSanFranciscoIpickedalock.JustinanofficebuildingbecauseIdidn'twanttogotothefrontdeskandgetthekeybecauseitwastwofloorsaway.You'relike,okay,yousortoflikehavethatpeoplearelookingatyoufunnybutstillIgotit.

NeilStrauss: Yeah.Lostafilecabinetlockandreplace-thefunnythingisonceyouowntheseskillsyouneverknowwhenthey'regoingtohappen.ItookanEMTcourse,whichI'llsayIhighlyrecommendwithsomecaveats.It'sagreatwaytogetareallyquickemergencymedicaleducation.Thecaveatcaveat.Anywaythecaveatisthattheyteachyouhowtodomedicineemergencymedicinedoesn'tgetyousuedwhereasacorpsmanoramedicorsomeonewho'sonthebattlefield,doesstuffthat'sbetterthanEMTisn'tallowedtoused,butit'sagreatquickemergencyeducation.

DaveAsprey: YouinspiredmetolookintothatandthenumberofhoursofEMTtrainingwasmorethanIcouldstomach,andstilltothisday,butI'mmarriedtoadoctorsoIoutsourcethat.

NeilStrauss: You'regood.Yeahexactly.Exactly.

DaveAsprey: Ididbuysometraumakitsathome.


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NeilStrauss: Yeah.It'sgreat.Thenyou'reonahighwayandsomeonewipesoutontheirmotorcycle,youcanstop,youcancalltheparamedicsandthendealwiththemwhilethey'rewaiting.HappenssurprisinglyofteninLA.

DaveAsprey: OneofthethingsthatIfindinspiringaboutthewayyoulookattheworldisexactlywhatyoujustsaidthere.You'retalkingaboutbeingpreparedandhavingsituationalawarenessandpresence.Youhavesituationalawarenesswhenyouwalkintoabar.YouwroteaboutthatprettyheavilyinTheGame,eventhoughyou'vechangedsubstantiallysinceyouwrotethatbook.ThesamethingthattheyteachinUrbanEscapeandEvasionoranyoftheexplorationsthatyou'vewrittenaboutareaboutwhat'sgoingonoutthereandhowdoIhavecontroloverthis.

Let'stalkabouthowhavingthatmaybeextralevelofpreparednessandawarenessandsayingokayifsomethinghappensIknowI'vegotit.TalkmethroughhowyoutookthatintobasicallyyourlifeasapickupartistinTheGameandhowyoutransformedfromthereintowhereyouarenowwithyournewbook.Iwantto,justfromthatperspectiveofwatchingwhat'shappening,that'swhatbiohackersdo.

NeilStrauss: Right.Right.Iwanttogetbacktothewordcontrolyoumentioned.Ithinkit'sinterestingthatyouchosethatword.

DaveAsprey: Itwasconscious.

NeilStrauss: Yeah.IguessthewayI'vedonemywholecareerandeverythingisthatIhitproblemsinlifeandthenIstarttosolvethemandasthesolutionbecomesreallyinterestingorunique,IgettoalevelofmaybeknowledgethatIfeelotherpeopledon'thaveorwouldfinduseful.I'lljustsay,youknowwhat?MaybeIshouldactuallywriteabookaboutthisandIgettodedicatemywholeentirelifetodoingitthesamewaythatyouhavewhereasyou'redoingthestuffforyourselfandbecomemorehealthy,andthought,ohifIjustbuildabusinessaroundthisIwould’veguessedIcanactually...Theycometogether.Nowyougettodowhatyouloveanditisyourbusiness.

Yougettotalktointerestingpeopleandlearnmoreandit'sstillwhatyou'redoingforwork.

DaveAsprey: Itisaprettyamazingchangefromworkingincomputersecurity.

NeilStrauss: Right.Yeah,yeah,yeah,exactly.

DaveAsprey: Yeah.Tohaveaconversationlikethiseven,IwouldhavethisconversationwithnorecordingjustbecauseIwanttoknowwhatyou'rethinking.

NeilStrauss: Yeah.Exactly.Ithinkthat'soneofthegoalsoflife,atleastforme,ishowcanyouorganizeyourlifearoundthestuffyoulovethatyoustilldoitevenifyoudidn'tgetpaid.


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DaveAsprey: Right.Youwentonthis...anodysseyreally.

NeilStrauss: Right.

DaveAsprey: JustforEmergency.Thatwasmultiplethings,butatthesametimeIthinkyouwerealsohoningyourgame,sotospeak,sinceyourbookiscalledTheGame.Doingthat,youobviouslydidthesethingssimultaneously,butyouwerepickingtoppingsofinterest.Whatmadeyoudecidetostartthisreallyincrediblearcof,Iwanttobereallygoodatthegameofpickingupwomen,andatthesametime,itendedatthisarcwhereyou'relikeokaynowI'mgoingtotalkaboutthetruth.Walkmethroughhowhaving-

NeilStrauss: Sure.

DaveAsprey: Thisiswhat,abouta15yeararcwouldyousay?20years?

NeilStrauss: Itmightbeless.Itmightjustbemaybe10yearsor10yearsforthisstuffandIwaswritingfortheNewYorktimesandnewjournalismforprobably10yearsbeforethat.

DaveAsprey: Okay.You'rewritingfor10yearsandthenabout10yearsagoyou'relikeokayI'mgoingtotrythesethingsthataregoingtopushmylimitson,prettymuchallthelimitsyoucouldfinditlookslikeyoupush.

NeilStrauss: Iwasalwaysdoingthematthesametime.ThatwasthegreatthingaboutbeingajournalistisI'dbeattheNewYorkTimesandI'dhavetocoverwhatIhadtocover,butthenI'dsay,youknowwhat?...Comedy'sfascinatingtome,whatifIwentundercoverasastandupcomicfortheNewYorkTimesandjusttrytomakeitfromthatperspectivewroteaboutwhatwaslike?

Ipitchedthemonthatarticle,butIreallywantedtodowasgetovermystagefrightandsocialanxietyandIfiguredthatwasagoodwaytodoit.Ijustpitchedthemarticlesthatimprovedmylife.Iwantedtolearnsnowboarding,I'dsaywhydon'twedoaweekendpieceonlearningtosnowboardinVermont?

DaveAsprey: Okay.Youjustmadeeveryonelisteningwanttobeajournalistbecausethey'regoingtopaymetogodowhatIwantedtodo?

NeilStrauss: LiterallyI'dbelike,okaywhatcountrydoIwanttogotoandcanIinventaplausiblepretexttogohere.Okay,Ilooked,theFugeesaregoingtoHaititodotheirfirstconcertthere.Great.NotonlydoyougettogoHaiti,butyougettohangoutwithallthedictatorsthere.You'rewiththeFugeessoyou'regoingtothepresident'spalace,you'reseeingAristide,andthenyou'regoingintheghettos,you'regoingeverywhereandthenyou'reseeing-backstageofthisconcertwherethey'replayingonstageandthere's10guyswithmachinegunsstandingonstage.It'scrazy.


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Itwasreally,IguessIjustwasalwaysabletodothatbutinsteadofIguessthembeingjustarticles,becomingbooksreallyallowedmetoimmersefurther,togodeeperandtogettotheendofathreadofknowledgewhereyoufeellikeyou'vegottensomedegreeofmasteryversusbeingadilettanteasajournalist.

DaveAsprey: Youspentallthis10years-nowI'mkindofjealous.Youspentallthis10yearsdoingthisandoneofthethingsyoudecidedtodowaswriteaboutthepickupartistgame.

NeilStrauss: Yeah.

DaveAsprey: Thatgottobekindofaddictiveforyou.Walkmethroughthat.

NeilStrauss: SureI'llwalkyouthroughthat.Thatstartedbecausemybookeditor,whoI'ddonetheseotherbookswith,calledmeupandsaidheyIfoundasecretcommunityofpickupartistsonline.They'reguyswithoutmoney,withoutlooks,withoutfame,who'vecrackedthecodeofseductionandfiguredoutjusthowtodoitwithanyone.Menothavingmoney,looks,orfame,andbeingreallyalwaystheguywhowasinthefriendszonewhoyou'dthinkitwasthebigmoment,yougoinforthekissandyou'dgetthecheekturnandthelet'sjustbefriendsspeech.

InmyheadIthoughtthere'snowayIeverwanttowriteaboutthis,ever.

DaveAsprey: Thatwaspushingabiglimitforyou?

NeilStrauss: YetbutI'mgoingtopretendlikeIwanttowriteaboutitsoIcangetthisinformationformyself.

DaveAsprey: Okay.

NeilStrauss: That'skindofhowitbegan.IwishIcouldsayIdiditwithjournalisticobjectivity,butIdiditwithlowlymalepathetic-ness.

DaveAsprey: It'saskillthatjustabouteveryguywouldliketohavedependingonhowandwhenthey'regoingtouseit.

NeilStrauss: Whatwasfascinatingandisstillfascinatingaboutthisworldiswhatitwaswasguysallovertheworldwhowereinventingandcreatingthesetechniquesformeetingwomen.Itwasn'tjustforsex,itwasforsomeitwasrelationships,somewasforesteem,tobeliked,whatevertheirreasonswere.Obviouslyalotofbrokenpeople,butinteresting.

Itreallywaslikeaworldwidelab,butalabwithnovariables.Literallysomeofthethingsinthiscommunityyoulaterreadaboutinscientificstudiesorpeoplewouldstudyandthenprovethesethingsout.Itreallywaslikea...Itwasalab.Ifsomethingworkedforyouandthenyoushareditanditworkedforallthethousandsofotherpeopleovertheworld,thenyouknewokaytherewassomethingtothis.


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DaveAsprey: Thatwouldbethescientificmethod,eventhoughitwasn'tdoubleblinded.It'samazinghowyoucangatherthingsthatworkwithouthavingajournalinvolved.

NeilStrauss: Inaway,becausetherewerenovariablesbeingcontrolled,there'saplustothatandthere'salsotheminustothat.Itwasnicethatitwasintherealworld.Bis,itdidn'thavetowork100percentofthetimetohaveitbeproven,itjusthadtoworkenoughofthetime.Itwasgoodenoughtowalkuptosomeoneknowthatninetimesoutoftenit'sgoingtoworkout,that'sprettyawesomeodds.

DaveAsprey: That'sprofound.Ineverwentthroughanykindoftraininglikethat-

NeilStrauss: Right,becauseyou'resocool.

DaveAsprey: NoI'vejustbeenmarriedforalongtime.There'snopointtoit.WhenIwassingleifI'dhadthoseskillsIimagineIwould'veputthemtousequiteoften,andIthinkmostguyswould.Atleastnotnecessarilyinamanipulativeway.Thatwasalwaysthecriticismandthethingthatdidn'teverseemattractivetomewhereyou'relike,it'sonethingtoconnectwithsomeoneonanemotionallevelandallthat,it'sanotherthingtolike,we'regoingtojustlike,I'mgoingtotrickyouintobed.

Whatchangedafteryearsofdoingthis?TheTruthisaradicallydifferentbook.

NeilStrauss: I'lltellyouwhatchanged,andaswe'retalking,IthinkthemomentwhereIgotcaughtupandlostinthisworldwasreallythefirstmomentImetoneofthesepickupartists,thisguynamedMysterywho'sthemaincharacterinmybook.Wewereatahotelloungehere.AtthetimeScott-wewalkedinitwasalmostempty.Isaidheylet'sjustgosomewherewhereIcanwatchyouworkandseewhatitisyoudo.

Therewasliketwocouplestheretogether,fourpeople,andwasScottBaio,theactorfromHappyDaysorwhateverthathewasfrom.Hewastherewiththisbeautiful,beautifulwomanandanothercouple.He'slike,no,no.It'sokay.IcanshowyouwhatIdo.Hewalksuptothosefourpeopleandliterallywithin10minutesgotthephonenumberofScottBaio'sdate.Hewas-

DaveAsprey: InfrontofScottBaio?

NeilStrauss: ScottBaio.HewasamagicianandScottBaioturnedtomeandhegoes,isthisthemagictrickorishestealingmydate?WhenIsawthatIthought…anyone…

DaveAsprey: It'sunbelievable.

NeilStrauss: Anyonewhocouldjustwalkuptosomeoneoftheoppositeorsamesexandstartaconversationwasalready,inmybooks,hadmuchmorecouragethanIdidorwasmyhero.ForhimtowalkupanddothatIwaslike,okay.


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Ifyouaskedaboutthebeliefbefore,whatallowedme,Ithoughtifsomeoneelsecandoit,there'snoreasonwhyIcan'tdoitorwhyIcan'tlearntodoit.Maybewhat'sallowedmetodothatstuffisthebeliefthatheyifsomeoneelsecandoitandthere'snophysicallimitationtoit,thenIshouldbeabletodoitorlearnit.

DaveAsprey: I'mthinkingbackabout,alittlebit,maybe11orsoyearsago.IgotoutofalongtermrelationshipandIwasnotinrealgoodshapementallyaboutit.Oneofmyfriendshadgotteninvolvedinthepickupartistscommunity.Hewasinsane.Hewasnotanattractiveguy.

NeilStrauss: Right.

DaveAsprey: Hewaspickingupdifferentwomeneverynight.Irememberwewentouttosomebarandheliterallywaslike,hereI'llpickoneupforyou.That'snotpossible.Literallyhebringsagirloverwhositsonmylapandstartskissingme.I'mlikewhatplanetamIonbecausethat'snotreallysomethingthatIwould'veevenconceivedofasbeingpossible.Itwaskindofnice,butitwasstillsomethingthatkindofmademego...there'salotofstuffIdon'tunderstandaboutallthis,butmyfriend,manhewasputtingallofhisenergyintopickingupwomen.Hecouldn'tstopalmost.

NeilStrauss: Itreallybecamecompulsive.

DaveAsprey: Yeah.Whathappenedthere?

NeilStrauss: Thenegativesideofitisthecompulsion,obviouslythemanipulation,andtheobjectificationarejustnotspiritually,psychological,healthythings.

DaveAsprey: Itwasn'thealthy.Youcouldseeit.Allofhisfriendswhowerealsomyfriendswerelike,he'snotonagoodpath.

NeilStrauss: Right.I'llsay,thepositivesideaboutitis,heyistheresomethingthatyouwanttodointhislife,whynotlearntobebetteratit,whynotlearntounderstandpeoplebetter,howpeoplework.TherearepositivesidesofitaswellandI'veseenalotofpeople...ForexampleIwasjustatabooksigningonthenewbookandaguycameupandhewasaSyrianrefugee.Helosthisentirefamily.HegottoLondon,knewnoone,wasalmostkilledthreetimes.HesaidsomehowIgotyourbookandIreaditandthatallowedmetobuildanewsocialpeergroupandnetworkhere.

DaveAsprey: Beingabletoconnect,especiallyifyou'resomeonewho'sbeentraumatizedorjustdidn'thavesocialskillsgrowingup,whichactuallyIdidn'treallyhavesocialskillsgrowingup.IhadAsperger'ssymptomsmostofthetime.

NeilStrauss: Right.


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DaveAsprey: Havingaplaybookisimmenselyvaluable.Idon'tknowthatI'veevertalkedaboutthisontheair,thereasonIcandoalotofwhatIdoisbecausefortwoyearseveryThursdaynightIwouldshowuponStanford'scampusinSiliconValley.Theyhadthisbusinessnetworkinggroupfromwhendotcomswerefirstemerging.Iwouldgothereasthisfatdorkandwatchhowpeopleinteractedandpractice.

NeilStrauss: Right.

DaveAsprey: IactuallygottobegoodatbusinessnetworkingandIdevelopedsocialskillsandIlearnedhowtotalktopeopleandlistentopeople.Itwasactuallyconsciousefforttodothat.IreallywasasupergeekandIwouldn'tmakeeyecontactandallthatstuffbecauseitwasn'tnaturaltome.Nowitis.

NeilStrauss: That'sexactlywhatthisgroupwas.Itwasn'tliketheymadeitup,theywerebackwardengineerwhatwasworkingforpeoplewhowerenaturallysuccessful.Forexample,let'ssayyou'dbeoutthereinyourscrawny,likemescrawny5'6"guy,andsomehugefootballjock,you'retalkingtothiswoman,doingyourthing,justpicksyouupandmovesyoutoonesideandsaysallrightlittlemanrunaway.

Thenyouthink...InsteadofthinkingohI'mreallyhumiliated,thatguy'shurtmyfeelings,youthinkwhatdidhedoandthenhowcanIrespondtothatnexttimehedoesit?Youthink,okay,hethengoesandgowowlookatyou.Lookatthosemuscles.OhmyGod,whatcanyoubenchpress?You'regreat.YoushouldbemysecurityguardorsomethingnexttimeI'mgoingout.Withoutstartingafightoranything,youcanoutmaneuverthemonceyouunderstandwhattheirmovesare.

DaveAsprey: That'scontrolrightthere.That'sabout,beforeeven,I'moutofcontrol,thisguyjustpuntedmebasically.Allofasuddenyou'relikenowI'mincontrolbecause,A,youanalyzedthesituationandyoutookaconsciousdecisionversusanemotionalorjustareactionarykindofframe

NeilStrauss: Yeah.Themomenthegetsalittlebitofareactionthenyoulookatherandyougo,youknowwhatthisguy'skindofcreepingmeout.Let'sgetoutofhere.

DaveAsprey: OhGod.That'ssobad.

NeilStrauss: Yeah.Itwasfascinating.Itreallywaslikethislab.Thegoodsideofit,whatittaughtmewas,Iusedtothinktherewere-eitheryouhaditoryoudidn't.Therewerepeoplewhowerecoolorpeoplewhoweren't.

DaveAsprey: Yeah.

NeilStrauss: Withthatcommunitywaslikeyoucanactuallylearnit.Therewereguyswhowereliterally,justlikeyouatStanford,werewritingdownlongpostsonbreakingdownhumorbecausetheydidn'thaveasenseofhumorandtheyweretryingtounderstand


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howtohaveasenseofhumor.Itgetsamazingly...Itreally,Iguess,it'ssocialhackingIsuppose.

DaveAsprey: There'ssomethingnobleaboutsomeonewhorealizes,lookIhavenosenseofhumor,Ihavenosocialskills,Irecognizethatthat'smissing.Iwantthatinmylife,andI'mgoingtodowhateverittakestogetthat.Thatisactuallybadass.Itotallyrespectthat.Ifyouchoosetoapplythattobasicallyhavingsexwithdifferentwomeneverysinglenight,maybeIdon'trespectthatbecausespirituallythatwillharmyou.

NeilStrauss: Right.Mostofthoseguysdidnotwanttohavesexwithadifferentwomaneverynight.Theyjustwantedtobe...someguysdid.Bytheway,it'snottodefendit'sjusttosaysomepeoplewanttojustbeinarelationshipwiththepeopletheychosetobeinarelationshipwith,otherpeoplewantedtobesociallypopular,otherpeoplejustwantedoptions,otherpeoplewantedtogooutandnotbewallflowers.Everyonehadtheirownmotivations.Ithinkalotofitwasaboutesteem.

DaveAsprey: Youwouldimaginethat.Iknowforme,myabilitytodothatbusinessnetworkingkindofthing,Icertainlydidn'thavereallygoodselfesteemthere.IknewIwasdoingsomecoolstuffwithtech,butitwaslikeIwantedtoseehowthesepeopleweresuccessful.Iwasreallysuccessmotivated.Iwaslike,Iknowthere'sagamehere,Idon'tunderstanditatall,butIreallylearnedsomuchfromthatandfewpeoplewhojustknewhowtonetworkmentoredme.Ilearnedhowtodothat.

That'sdifferentthanthedatingworld,butactuallybusinessanddatingareincrediblysimilar.

NeilStrauss: It'salso,inawayit'salsooutcomeseeking.IgotacallfromanationalintelligenceorganizationandtheygiveTheGametoalltheirfieldagents.

DaveAsprey: Noway.

NeilStrauss: TheyreadTheGameandtheyusetheexactsameprocess,butthecloseisdifferent.Iwenttheretoactuallytrainthemusingtheexactsamestuffwe'retalkingabout.

DaveAsprey: Wow.

NeilStrauss: Onlytheclosemightbegettingsomeonetoturninformantontheirbossorgettingascientisttoturnoversecretsfromanotherstate.Itwasallthesamestuff.

DaveAsprey: Didyouthinkthatwouldhappen?

NeilStrauss: Never.I'vetrainedcharitiesonhowtogetdonorsandallthatstuff.Ineverthoughtitwouldhappen.

DaveAsprey: Thetechniqueswerethesamebutthecloseisdifferentbasically.


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NeilStrauss: Right,exactly.

DaveAsprey: Youcoulddonationalsalestrainingprobablyforcarsalesmenand…

NeilStrauss: Inasecond.DanKennedy,who'sagreatmarketer,saidTheGamewasoneofthebestsalesmanuals.

DaveAsprey: Yeah.Okay.Youcrackedthatcode,whichisremarkable,butnowTheTruthcomesout.

NeilStrauss: Yes.Right.

DaveAsprey: That'sactuallyfunny.Ididn'tplanthat.TheTruth,asinthetitleofyourbook,comesout.

NeilStrauss: Right.

DaveAsprey: Afterallthistimespendingagoodportionofyourenergyonthis,youshiftedgearsalot.Walkmethroughtheprecipitatingevent.Whatmadeyoudecidetochange?

NeilStrauss: Sure.Life'ssointeresting.Ithink,forme,Ilearnhowtomeetpeople,buthowdoyouactuallystayinrelationshipswiththem?

DaveAsprey: It'sdifferent.

NeilStrauss: Itwasn'tlikeIreallyobviously,itwasn'tthatIeverwantedtobeapickupartistpersay,Ijustwantedto,Ireallyalways-theplanistogetmarried,havekids,andbeagreatdadandallthatstuff,yetallmyrelationshipsjustflounderedandfailed.Itcamefromthat.Itwasreallytryingtofigureoutintimacyandconnection.

Igrewupbothmyparentsjusthateeachotherbutstayedtogetherhatingeachother.

DaveAsprey: Ohthat'snotagoodrolemodelsituation.

NeilStrauss: Yeah.Mymomwouldalwayssaywhateveryoudonevergrowuptomakeanyoneasmiserableasyourfathermakesme.YoucanseeIhavethepsychologicaltemplatetogetstuckintothatcommunity.

DaveAsprey: Yeah.That'snotanicethingtosaytoyourkids.Okay.

NeilStrauss: AssoonassomeonefeltunhappyorbadinrelationshipI'dthinklookatme,I'mruiningthem,Igottoprotectthemfromme.

DaveAsprey: Wow.

NeilStrauss: Ihadsomany-


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DaveAsprey: Youhadsomecodependencegoingonthereforsurethen.

NeilStrauss: Yeah.

DaveAsprey: Okay.

NeilStrauss: Ijustwantedtosolvethatproblem.

DaveAsprey: Iseeitnow.Firstoffyou'relikeIwanttolearnhowtomeetpeople,howtomeetwomen,howtoinitiaterelationships,thatwasonesetofskillsthatyouhacked.

NeilStrauss: Right.

DaveAsprey: Flatouthacked.

NeilStrauss: Yeah.

DaveAsprey: ThenthesecondonewasnowI'dliketoactuallybehappywiththemandstaywiththem,whichisaverydifferentsetofskillsandyoudecidedtohackthat.

NeilStrauss: That'sexactlyit.Thetwoexactincitinginstanceswhereoneisafriendwho'swatchedmethewholetimeandisamentor,reallysaywellyougoteverythingyouwantedwithwomen,whyyoustillnothappy?It'sgreat.Thebestthingyoucangetinlifeistogeteverythingyouwant,whetherit'smoney,fame,success,sex,marriage,whateveritisyouwant,andthenrealizethatithasn'tsolvedtheproblemsandyouhavetolookinside.

DaveAsprey: Ithinkthere'sanancientChineseproverbthatI'mprobablyhacking.It'slikeacurse.Yougeteverythingyouwant...

NeilStrauss: Right.Right.Right.It'sablessingbecausethenyoucanstarttorealize-IinterviewpeopleforRollingStone.WhenItalktopeoplewhoachievethatpinnacle,theyinstantlygotdepressed.Theygotdepressedbecausebeforewhentheywereunhappytheycouldsayit'sbecauseI'mnotthereyet.Thenwhentheygotthereandthey'restilldepressed,they'relikeokaymaybeithadnothingtodowiththat.

DaveAsprey: Itellyou,whenIwas16IwroteontothethinkandgrowrichkindofgoalonmymirrorthatIwaslikeI'mgoingtomakeamilliondollarsbythetimeI'm23.Idon'tknowwhythatwasmygoalbutIwasconvincedthatmoneywasjustthekeytohappiness.

Itdidn'tworkbecauseImadesixmilliondollarswhenIwas26.Okay,that'sstillprettybadass.Ineversaidmakeandkeep.IlostsixmilliondollarswhenIwas28.Ibrieflyhadit-

NeilStrauss: Becarefulwhatyouwishfor.


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DaveAsprey: Here'sthething.WhenIhadsixmilliondollars,youknowwhatwasgoingtomakemehappy?Tenmilliondollars.HowdumbcouldIhavebeen?Right?

NeilStrauss: Right.

DaveAsprey: Igotthereanditdidn'tchangemylife,itdidn'tmakememorehappy.Mycarwasfaster,butthatwasit.Myrelationshipsstillsucked,IstillhadalltheselfesteemthingsandalltheotherstuffIwasworkingon.I'mseeingyouhadthesamepatternhere,butitwasrelationshipbased.Igotin,itwasn'twhatIwantedoritwasn'twhatyouthoughtyouwanted.

NeilStrauss: Itevencouldbe,itcouldbethedatinggamethingthatIthinkifyou'relookingforsomethingoutsideyourselftomakeyourselfokay,thatjustbecomesadrugfix,whetheritis-

DaveAsprey: It'sadopaminething,right?

NeilStrauss: Yeah.Yeah.Exactly.Yeah.Whathappened,andtheincitingeventasmuchasIhatetosayitbutit'strueandit'sinthebookischeatedonmygirlfriendandthenfelthorrible.IfelthowcouldIhavedonethistosomebodywhoIcareabout,howcouldI'vehurtthis,howcouldIhaveruinedmychancesformyfuture,andsomewhathowcouldIbreakmyownmoralethicalcodejustforsexthatwasn'teventhatgoodanyway.ThenIreally,thebookbeginswithmecheckingintosexaddictionrehabwhichisafascinating,whichwasaironicplacetobe.HalftheguystherehadreadTheGame.

DaveAsprey: Sorrygoahead.

NeilStrauss: OneguywaslikethefactthatIwasintherewascrushingtohim.Itwasfascinating.That'swherethejourneybeganbecausethegreatthingaboutaddictionpsychologyisithastoworkbecauselivesareatstake.

DaveAsprey: Yeah.

NeilStrauss: Itwasreallytheturnaroundmomentwasnotthe,andI'mnottalkingaboutthe12stepstuff,I'mtalkingaboutyourcorechildhoodissuesthatarethesoftwareinwhichyou'reoperatingtodaythatregulartherapyyousitinaroomwithsomeonefor150or$250aweekwithnotreatmentplanjusttalkingtothem.I'mreallyskepticalofit.

DaveAsprey: Iamtoo.

NeilStrauss: Ifyou'reanaddictthat'snotgoingtowork.Whattheyreallyhavetodoissaveyourlifebecausethatnextdrink'sgoingtoburstanesophagealveinorthenextshotofheroin'sgoingtobeahotoneandyou'redone.Livesareatstakeandtheyjusthavetodowhatworks.That'sthemomentmylifewaschanged.


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Bytheway,notbecauseofrehab,becauseIstarted...IthoughtIwasthenormalpersonrunningbythecrazypeople.IdidabookwithMarilynManson,withMotleyCrue,allthejournalismstuff.Eventhepickupartist,Iwasthe"normalone"inthatbooklookingatthecrazypickupartists.ThiswasthefirsttimewhenIrealizedthatIwasjustascrazyasthemandsoiseverybody.Wejustdon'tknowitbecausewe'relivingwithourselvesandwe'resoclosetoourselveswecan'tseeit.Itseemsnormalbecausethat'showwe'vebeenhabituated.

DaveAsprey: There'ssomethingyoudescribedintherethatsoundedreallyfamiliartome.YoutalkabouthowcouldIhavedonethis,Icheatedonmygirlfriendanditwentagainstmybeliefs.Asa300poundobeseperson,I'dsitthereandI'dlookatthecrumbsfromthedonutandexactlythesamemind-

NeilStrauss: Right.

DaveAsprey: IsaidIwasn'tgoingtodothat.Idecidednottodoit,Isetanintentnottodothat,andthenanurgehappenedanditwasonethatIcouldn'tdeny.Mostlyit'sbecauseyouranoutofwillpowerbecausethatsameurgehappenedathousandtimesandIdiddenyitwhileIwaslookingatthething.Mybodywaslikeeatit,I'mlikeno,eatit,no.

Sexiskindofthesamewayright?Yousawwhoeveryoucheatedwithandyou'relikeshe'sreallyhot.I'dlikesomeofthat.Thenyou'relikeI'mnotgoingtodoit,butatsomepointyougavein.Wasitactually,didyourunoutofwillpowerwhenyoudidthat?

NeilStrauss: Icanseethatbeingit.Ithinkthat'sonewaytothinkabout.Ilovethat,it'sagreatbook,thatwillpowerbookandtheideathatit'sthislimitedresource.It'sreallyinfluencedsomeofthethingsIdoinmylife.ItrytoautomateasmanydecisionsthatareunnecessaryasIcantoconservethat.

DaveAsprey: Youandmeboth.Ilive,don'tmakemedecide.

NeilStrauss: Yeah.Yeah.Exactly.Allthe...allmylunchesarepreorderedfromeachofmyfavoriteplaceseachday.Youdothattoo?

DaveAsprey: Totally.AnytimeIcannothavetodecidewhat'sonmyplate,it'safreedecision.

NeilStrauss: No.Yeah,yeahexactly.WhatIthinkitis,thethingstorecognizeaboutyourselfareifyousayyou'renotgoingtodosomethingandyoudoit-let'sjustfaceit.Ifyoukeeplosingthatwillpowereveryday,it'snotthatyoujustranoutofwillpowerthatday,there'ssomethingmorecompulsivetakingaholdofyou.AnytimeyoumakethedecisionI'mgoingtostartdoingthisorstopdoingthatandyoucan'tdoit,andmaybeyousaiditacoupletimes,thenit'snotabehavioralproblem,it'sadeeperproblem.

DaveAsprey: It'slikeanemotionalthing.


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NeilStrauss: Right.Yeah.Iwouldsayifthere'sadifferencebetweenTheGameandTheTruth,it'snotjustone'saboutdatingandtheotherone's-one'saboutcourtship,one'saboutrelationships,it'sreallyTheGame'saboutbehaviors.HeyifItalktothispersonandItiltmybodytothislittleangleandsaythesewords,I'mgoingtohaveabetterresponse.It'seasytochangethosethings.TheTruthandthestuffinrelationshipsisreallyaboutyourbeliefs.They'remuchhardertorecognizeletalonechange.

DaveAsprey: Wow.Oneofthebiggestlearningsofmyownpathhasbeenthatit'snotenoughtositsomewhereandacttherightway.Atsomebaselevel,thepeopleyou'rearoundknowthatyou'rejustacting.

NeilStrauss: Right.

DaveAsprey: Youneedtoactuallybethatway.

NeilStrauss: Exactly.

DaveAsprey: You'vegottodoithere,inyourheartorinyourbody,viscerally,aswellasbehavingtherightway.Ifyoufeelitviscerallyandyoubehaveinthewrongway,thenyouprobablyshouldreadTheGame.

NeilStrauss: Right.Right.

DaveAsprey: AlotofpeoplewhoarereadingTheGameweren'tfeelingitoractingit.Theystartedactingitbuttheydidn'tlearnhowtofeelit.

NeilStrauss: Yeahexactly.

DaveAsprey: AmIgettingthisright?ThisismyperceptionofitjustbecauseIstruggledwithrelationshipsandallthiskindofstuffaswell.AmIputtingwordsinyourmouthoristhisjustwhatI’mhearing?

NeilStrauss: I'mhearingit,I'mjustthinkingofyourinterpretationofit.Justseeingasyourinterpretationofitbeingavalidinterpretation.Ithinkwecallitcongruence.Youwanttobecongruent.

DaveAsprey: Yeah.

NeilStrauss: What'sontheoutsidehastomatchontheinsideandpeoplepickuponthatinstantly.AlotofTheGameguysarelikethesefakealphamalesandthey'llhavetolearntositwiththeirlegsspreadoutreallywidebecausealphamalesdothatandthey'llwalklikethey'rewalkingaroundamassivepackagewiththeirarmsswinging.It'slikethey'removingaroundlargepecs.Youseethatpersonandyoujustthinkthey'reincongruent,they'refakingsomethingthatthey'renotversusapersonwhoactuallynaturallyislikethat.Youthinkthatguymustbeawrestlerorsomething.


19

DaveAsprey: Right.

NeilStrauss: Theotheroneisyouthinkthatmustbeaguywithproblems.

DaveAsprey: Totallyhearyou.Sobecongruentonit.

NeilStrauss: It'scongruenceandIthinkyouworktowardscongruence.Ifyou'regoingtochangeabehavior,there'samiddleperiodwhereyouareincongruentandattheendofityouwanttobebackinalignment.

Let'stalkaboutthebeliefstuffbecauseIthinkit'sfascinating.

DaveAsprey: Yeah.

NeilStrauss: Ithinkthatthebiglessonformewasthatthebigissueinrelationshipshasnothing-Ialwaysthoughtithadsomethingtodowiththeotherperson,thatsomethingwaswrongwith-theywerelikethis,theywerelikethat,whycan'ttheybemorelikethisorsomethingwaswrongwiththerelationship.WhatIrealizedamongstthousandsofotherlessons,isthatitwasonlyaboutmeandonlyaboutthewayIwasrelatingtothem.Hadnothingwhatsoevertodowiththem.

DaveAsprey: Yeah.

NeilStrauss: ItwasamazingthatbychangethewayIthoughtandperceivesomeonethattheybecameawholenewpersonandloveandintimacywerepossible.

DaveAsprey: Whatwasthemostimportantthingforteachingyouhowtochangehowyouthoughtorfeltaboutorperceivedanotherperson?

NeilStrauss: Beliefsareincredible.I'dlovetogodeeperintoitandhowtheyformandhowwecanseethemandhowtheycanreallydestroyourlives.Ialwaysthinkwhydopeopleselfsabotageorwhytheyhavethesegoalswhydon'ttheyreachthemanditallhastodowiththeirbeliefs.

DaveAsprey: It'sthesoftwareright?

NeilStrauss: Right.Yeahit'sthesoftware.Alotofthetruthisreallyaboutrunningavirusscanonyourselfandseeingwherethebugsinyoursoftwareare.Itreallyis.

DaveAsprey: Greatanalogy.Greatanalogy.

NeilStrauss: Yeahandhowisthisstuffprogrammedin?SomepeoplehaverealproblemsdoingitandI'llexplainwhythatis.Wait,whatwasthequestion?Iwasabouttoanswer.

DaveAsprey: Whatwasthemostimportant-


20

NeilStrauss: Themostimportant.

DaveAsprey: Understandaboutchangingthatstuff?

NeilStrauss: Here'sthecraziestmostannoyingthing.Thatwhenyourecognizewhatthebeliefis,it'sstillnotenoughtochangeit.

DaveAsprey: Yeah.Thatissotrue.

NeilStrauss: There'ssomuchhabit.Forexample,someoneIworkwithisanovereater.Healwaysgoesonthediets,they'reverysuccessfuldietsbuttheydon'tlast,right?

DaveAsprey: Yeah.

NeilStrauss: Ithasnothingtodowithwhathe'seating.It'sthat,inhiscase,asachildhismomwasn'tveryaffectionatebutshe'dshowherlovebycookingforhim.Whenhe'sfeelingbad,hegoesandeatshisfoodandgetshislove.Thathastoberewired.Evenifyourecognizethat'swhy,you'restillgoingtodoitandyouhaveto...thereareabunchofamazing-youhavetotreatthisissuealmostlikeapsychologicalcancerinasenseandreallyattackitwithwhatevertoolsaregoingtogothedeepestandwhy-

DaveAsprey: Whatarethetoolsyoulikeforattacking?I'msureeveryonelisteningknowstheyhaveaweaknessaroundsomethinglikethatoranareathey'dliketoimprove.

NeilStrauss: Noteverybody.Therearetwokindsofpeople.

DaveAsprey: Interesting.

NeilStrauss: There'speople,they'rethepeoplewhothinksomethingiswrongwiththem.

DaveAsprey: Okay.

NeilStrauss: Thentherearethepeoplewhothinksomething'swrongwitheverybodyelsebecausethey'reperfect.

DaveAsprey: Whyiseveryonesostupid?Right,right.

NeilStrauss: WeweretalkingearlierandIwasgoingtowriteabookoraKindlesinglecalledthePowerofLowSelfEsteem.

DaveAsprey: Yeah.

NeilStrauss: Likeweweretalkingearlier,thefactthatyoufeltdeficientorsomethingwaswrongwithyouandthefactthatIdidallowedustogrowandimprove.There'scertainpeople


21

whojustthinkthey'regreat,something'swrongwithsomeoneelseandtheycan'tlookatthemselvesandtheyhavedefensivegrandiosity.

DaveAsprey: Narcissistsbasically.

NeilStrauss: Yeah.Someonesaidtheotherdaynarcissismisareflectionofanemptinessinside.They'rereallytheonestofeelsorryfor.Theyneedtodode-affirmationsinthemirror.Yousuck.

DaveAsprey: Yousuck.

NeilStrauss: Notsogood.Yeah.Herearethethings...Ireallythinkthetherapymodelisbrokenbecausealotofthestuffdidn'tcomeintellectually,itcameinthroughfeelingsandthroughexperiences.

DaveAsprey: It'snotintellectual.Feelingsarenotintellectual.Theycan'tbebecausethey'renotthoughts.

NeilStrauss: Right.Bytalkingthroughitdoesn'tdomuch.HowIthinkthemodelshouldworkandthisiskindofwhatIdidisIwish-theotherproblemisA,healthinsurancedoesn'tcoverthis,isjustgosomewhereandgetthemedicationtocorruptthesymptoms.Onevisitandaprescription.

Oneoftheproblemsispsychologicalemotionalhealingisarichperson'sgameinthesensethatit'snotcheap.Justwiththatcaveat,andthesecondcaveatiswhat'sreallygoinlineisthatIhaveamissionnowit'sthatifwe'resickwedosomethingforourphysicalhealthandgotoahospital,forourintellectualhealthwehavetogotoschool,butwedon'tdoanythingasacultureforouremotionalhealthorlearningwhat'semotionallyhealthy.Manyofthethingsthatpeoplethinkareemotionallyhealthyarereallynotandwecandiscussthatlater.

Weonlydothatlaterinlifeifsomething'sreallyseriouslydebilitatingwrongthat'shurtingusorothersandthenthere'sasomewhatshamearoundit.Ithinklearningemotionalhealthwouldbeimportantforourculture.

DaveAsprey: Justevenbeingawareofshame.

NeilStrauss: Yeah.

DaveAsprey: Alotofpeoplehaveshameandtheydon'tknowtheyhaveshamebecauseit'salwaysbeenthere.It'slikebeingcolorblindorsomething.Youwouldn'tknowyouwerecolorblindbecauseyou'vealwaysbeencolorblind.

NeilStrauss: Yeah.WhydidIjustgetangrynowatsomeonethatactuallyhadnothingtodowiththem?Ifeltacertainwaythatwasalearnedresponsefromchildhood.


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DaveAsprey: Whatyou'resayingringstruetome.MypathwasprettydifferentinthatIbasicallyhookedaliedetectoruptomyheadandrealizedtherewasahugedisparitybetweentheemotionsandthethoughtsandmanagedtogetthemalignedthatwaywhereI'dtellmyselfsomethingthatwasnottrueandthecomputer'sshowingmethatit'snottrue.Dammit.How'dIgetthatbelief?

NeilStrauss: Right.

DaveAsprey: Thenalotoftranspersonalpsychology,whichisallfeelingbasedinsteadoftalkingbased.

NeilStrauss: Yeah.

DaveAsprey: WithoutthatIprobablywouldhavenoideawhatemotionsIwashavingrightnowbecauseIdon'tthinkInaturallyknew.

NeilStrauss: It'ssofunny.Wegetsomadatotherpeopleiftheysaysomethingtous,butthewaywetalktoourselvesisunconscionable.Thethingswesaytoourselves,ifsomeonesaidittous,wewouldhatethemfortherestofourlives.

DaveAsprey: Ifthevoiceinyourheadwasafriend,you'dfirethemasafriendinaminute.

NeilStrauss: I'mreallyinto,andbythewaywhenIclosethatlooponwhatIthinktherapyshouldbe,I'mreallyintothestorieswetellourselvesandthenthatwekeepprovingarerightandbecomemorereinforcedandgettingoutofthatbox.

DaveAsprey: Yeah.

NeilStrauss: Inmyidealmodelhowit'dworkisyou'dhaveaprimarycare,saypsychologistortherapist,whowouldsayokayhere'syourcoreissue.Yourcoreissueisyouhadaverycriticalparentoraparentwhowon'tsayandwewouldneedtoworkontheesteemissuesaroundthatortheywouldjustchooseone.Theywouldsayyouhadaparentwhowasn'tthereandnowyouhavefeelingsofworthlessnessandnotbeingvaluedandareworriedyourpartnersaregoingtoleaveyou.Oryouhadaparentwhoonlyjudgedyoubyyourresults,byyourgrades.Ithinkyoutalkedaboutachievers,sobyyourtouchdownsorbyyourgradesandthenthusyouthinkyouneedtoachievetogetlove.Thenyougetthosepeoplewhosay,likeyoujustsaid,onemillionwasn'tenough,Ineededtenmillionorwhathaveyou,orsixmillionwasn'tenough.

DaveAsprey: Right.That'slikethefoodishungryghostidea.Nomatteryoueat,you'realwayshungry.Noteatjustlikefoodwise,butjustnomatterwhatyouconsumeorwhatyoudoorwhatyouhave,there'salwaysmore.That'sthatbeliefyou'retalkingabout.

NeilStrauss: Right.Theysayheythisisthecoreissue,nowlet'sdevelopatreatmentplanforit.Thattreatmentplanmightbeokayyou'regoingtogoto...thereareallthesegreatweek


23

longprogramsthatreally-orweekendorthreeorfourdayprograms,whereyoureallygettotheemotionalrootofitandpurgeit,almostlikeanexorcismofthoseemotions

DaveAsprey: Ididatendayoneofthoseearlyoninmyown…

NeilStrauss: Whatwasthat?

DaveAsprey: ItwascalledtheStarFoundation.Itwasanonprofitthing,deeplytranspersonal,holotropicbreathwork.Even,Ididn'trealizeIhadPTSDaroundmybirth.Ihadthecordwrappedaroundmyneck,whichaffectsthewayyouseetheworld.

NeilStrauss: Itdoes.

DaveAsprey: Myworldwasathreateningplaceallthetime.

NeilStrauss: Right.You'reinparadise,rightawayit'slikeyou'reinhell.

DaveAsprey: Yeah.

NeilStrauss: Yeah.Allthosethingsplayinaffect.It'samazingwhenmysonwasbornatthehospital,I'mlikeokayyou'recaringforhisphysicalhealthbutnothispsychologicalhealth.

DaveAsprey: Theyabusebabiesinhospitals.

NeilStrauss: Noitreallyis.It'slikehisfirstexperienceisgettingpokedandprodded.FornoreasontheyputhiminNICUandgavehimaspinaltap.I'mlikenoevenasanadultyouwouldhatethat.It'sbreakingmyheart.I'mlike,wowIgottostartthehealingrightnow.

DaveAsprey: You'reright.That'sagiftthatyou'reabletodothat.Imagineifyoudidn'thavetheknowledgeyouhaveandthathappenedtoyourbaby.Thenyou'relikeIdon'tknowwhyI’mlike…

NeilStrauss: OhthankGodthey'retakingcareofmybaby.They'resavinghim.

DaveAsprey: Right.Whetherthosearenecessaryornot,thereisanemotionalhealingthathappensanytimeahuman'straumatized.Asanadultinsurgeryorasababy.Nooneevertaughtmethisstuff.I'mfromafamilyofhardcorenuclearscientistpeople.Formetorealize...ThisladyattheStarFoundation,she'sgotmynumberbecauseshelookedatmeandsheaskedmeonequestionaboutmybirthandwasabletodiagrammypersonality.IwaslikesheknowsallmyweaknessesandallthethingsI'mashamedof.Itwasweird.

NeilStrauss: Here'smyattitudewhenIgoin,there'ssomanythings.SayyourprimarycaretherapistsaysyouneedtogototheStarFoundationandthenyouneedsomeSomaticExperiencing.Haveyoudonethat?


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DaveAsprey: No.

NeilStrauss: SomaticExperiencingdealswithtraumatrappedinthebody.

DaveAsprey: Okay.Wedidn'tcallitthatbutthatwasmostofwhattheywoulddo.

NeilStrauss: It'sgreatstuff.ThisguyPeterLevinedevelopedit.It'salmostliketheway,inamovieaghostwillhauntahouseuntilhismurderer,hisorhermurderer,hasbeencaught,thisislikethetraumathat'sfloatinginyourbodywaitingtobereleasedandletgoofbecauseasachildyouit’ssomethingthatyoucan'treallyescapeitalltrapsinthere.MaybetheydothatormaybetheydoEMDRwhichdealswitheyemovements,leftandrighthemispheres.

DaveAsprey: Profound.Forpeoplelisteningrightnow,ifyouhavestuffthatyouknowespeciallyisatrauma,EMDRcandetunethat.I'vedoneEMDRonlytwice.ActuallyI'maprettycleanslaterightnow,buttherewasonethingIwasstuckonwhereIjustcouldn'tforgivethisthing.Itwasreally,reallyhardformetodothis.IhaveaforgivenesspracticeandI'mlike,youknowwhatI'mthinkingwaytoomuchaboutthings.Iknowthebehaviorsaboutanotherperson,it'sinthepublicsphere.I'mlikeI'mdone.IdidEMDRonetimeandliterallyI'mlikeohthereasonthisistriggeringthis,andIknowI'veneversaidthisontheradio.

SomethingthathappenedtomeinfirstgradesetupthisdynamicthatIwasunawareofasathinkingawareperson,thedynamicwasthatIwouldbeaccusedofsomethingthatIdidn'tdoandthenhavetotakethefallforit.SomekidsaidIdidsomethingIdidn'tdo.Atthetimeittraumatizedme.IwasfeelingalltheseweirdemotionsasanadultbecauseIwasaccusedofstuffthatIdidn'tdo.

OnceIfiguredoutwhatthatwas,wedidEMDRonetime,wheretheymoveyoureyesbackandforth,andallofasuddenitwasgone.ItwaslikethevoiceinmyheadthatIdidn'tknowhowtoshutup,wasgone.

NeilStrauss: Right.Thatwasyourstorylikeyouweresayingearlier.

DaveAsprey: Yeah.

NeilStrauss: Here'smythoughtonEMDRandFrancineShapiro,whoI'vetalkedtocreatedit,mightnotagreewithhowitworksbutit'showIthinkofit,iswhatyoudowithEMDRisthey'llwagthislittlepointerleftwhileyouthinkaboutthetraumaandgobackthere.Youreyesmoveleftandrightandthenthey'llputtonesinyourearthatgolefttorightandthenthey'lltapyourleftandrightknee.WhatIthinkaboutitisatrauma,likeIthinkofitasaconcentrated-itsortofgetsconcentratedinanareaofyourbrainandbywhileyou'rethinkingaboutitfromgoingtolefttorighthemisphereitjusttakesmaybeastainandspreadsitoutsoyoucan'tseeitasmuch.


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DaveAsprey: Greatanalogy.

NeilStrauss: That'sthewayIthinkaboutit.WhatIwantedtosayisforsomepeoplelistening,peoplemightgoonlineandlookupthisstuff.I'llsayisitproven,isitdisproven.Idon'tactuallycarebecausenoneofitisgoingtohurt.Itdoesn'thurttojusttryitandjustseewhatworksforyou.

Myattitudeis,Ithoughtofitlikethis,traumaandeverybodyhastraumaandcangetintowhythatisinasecond,buteverybodyhastrauma.Ithinkofitalmostlikeacancerousballattachedtoyourheartbyanelasticband.Whenyoudosomething,sayEMDR,itstretchesthatbandalittlebit.Thenmaybeyouleaveandyoufeellikeit'scuredandthensomethingelsehappensandyoudwellonbeingaccusedofthisstuffanditsnapsback.IfyoukeepstretchingthatelasticwithEMDRandSomaticExperiencing,someofthesedeepGestaltlikechairworkisgreat,allthesedifferentthingsandyoukeepstretchingandstretchingandeventuallyitlosesitsresiliencyanddoesn'thangonsotight.

It'slikeahalfwayforradioactivematerial.Youcanmaybenevergetridentirelybutyoukeepcuttinginhalfandinhalfandinhalfanditgetssmallerandsmaller,smalleruntilyoumeetthatbeautifulwomanandyou'reinarelationshipandyou'relike,yeahshe'sbeautiful,butIdon'thavetogodotheGameoryouseethatcakeandyoudon'thavetoeatit,oryouseethatmoneyopportunitythat'sgoingtotakeyouawayfromyourfamilyandyourfriendsandyourhappinessandyoudon'thavetotakeit.

DaveAsprey: That'sprettyprofoundstuff.Thefactthatyou'reso,actuallyinallofyourbooks,you'rereallyraw.EveninEmergencyyou'retalkingaboutwhat'sgoingonthefearyouhaveandthentotalkaboutintheGameandthennowtosumitupwithTheTruth,it'saremarkablepathyou'vebeenthrough.Ithinkit'sincrediblethatyou'rewillingtogooutthereandtalkaboutstuffthatalotofguyswouldn't,aboutEMDRandtraumaandbirthandallthatweirdstuffthatprogramsus.That'swhereallthatcrapcomesfromthatkeptyoufrombeinginagoodrelationship,right?

NeilStrauss: Yeah.Yeah.Exactly.ThethingIwantedtosayforthe35percentoflistenerswhoarelisteningandthinkingheythisstuffisn'tformeorwhathaveyouisthat,we'reborn,thisiswhyhumanbeingshavetakenovertheentireplanet,we'reborntobeadaptable.Thereasonwe'rebornsoearly-IhadgoatswhenIwasdoingEmergencyandassoonasIdeliveredthegoats,they'reupontheirfeetrunningaroundinstantly.Whenwe'rebornittakesacoupleyearsbeforeweevenhavedecentlanguageskillsandagoodyearuntilwecanwalkalittlebit.

Thereasonwe'rebornsoearlyissowecanadapttoourenvironmentandthat'swhywe'vedonesuchagoodjobofcolonizingthisplanetandpossiblytheuniverse,right?

DaveAsprey: Right.


26

NeilStrauss: Youthinkofyourbrain,alotoftheneuronsaretherebutthearchitectureisn'tthere.Thatarchitectureisdevelopedinthosefirstyears.Ithinkit'ssomething,thereareallkindsoffigures,somethingliketwomillionnewneuroconnectionsasecondachildismaking.Attheageofthree-doyouknowthis?Attheageofthreeyouhavetwiceasmanyneuroconnectionsasanadult.

DaveAsprey: Yeahandtheygetprunedintothis…

NeilStrauss: Thentheygetprunedthantheygoneaway.What'sthatshapedby?It'swhatareyourexperiences?Whatislovelike?Whatisyourrelationshiplike?Whenyoucryandyou'rehungryareyoubeingfedorareyounotbeingfed?Areyoubeingignored?Areyousafe,areyounotsafe?Allthesethingsarecreatingthat.Thenwhenthey'reprunedawayandthey'rereducedinhalf,thatthenbecomestheboxyouliveinandthat'sreality.That'syourreality.That'swhenyouseesomething.You'relikehowcansomeonedothat?Howcansomeonethinkthat?Whyarepeoplevotingfor-whyarepeoplesupportingTrumporsomething?Theywerejustbornwithdifferentboxes.

Itmakesnosense.Ican'tevenunderstandwhysomebodywouldsupportTrumpafterthethingshe'ssayingbutwhenI-thenwhenIdothesearticlesandItalktothesepeople,Istarttounderstandokaytheywereraisedinawaywhereanythingoutsideordifferentorforeignisdangeroustothemandathreat.That'stheirfalserealitythey'relivingin.

DaveAsprey: It'sreallyhelpful,andthisissomethingIdidn'tunderstand,isthatIalwaysthoughtotherpeoplewereeithercrazyorstupidbecausetheyweren'tlikeme.

NeilStrauss: Right.

DaveAsprey: Right?Justlikeyousaid,theirneuralpruningwasverydifferentthanmineandlikedifferentpeople'sdifferentthaneachother'stoo.JustbeingwillingtoacceptthatandrealizethatalmosteverythingthatIthoughtitwasaboutmewasactuallyaboutthem.Justhavingthatknowledge,forme,wasrelaxing.

NeilStrauss: Here'smyquestionforyou.

DaveAsprey: Okay.

NeilStrauss: Yousaidcontrolearlierandcontrol'stheissue,andIknowyouroriginstoryaboutwhyyoudowhatyoudo,butwhatdoyouthink-againIthinkalotofbiohacking,socialengineeringallthatstuffisalotaboutcontrol,whatdoyouthinkinyourfamilyoforiginmodelthereasoniswhyyouneedcontroltofeelsafe?

DaveAsprey: Formeit'snotaboutfeelingsafeanymorealthoughitcertainlywasIneverfeltsafeatall.IwasbulliedandI'vebeeninlikeahundredfistfightsandstuff.Plusjustcomingintotheworldbeingchokedbyanumbilicalcordwillmakeyoufeelunsafeconstantly,


27

chronicallyinthebackground.IthinkI'mdonewiththat.Formethough,mybrainwasgoingawayinmymidtwenties.Icouldn'tthink,Icouldn'tpayattentionwhenIwasreallyinterestedinsomething.Likethisconversation.ThereweremanytimesinmylifewhereI'dbelookingatyouandI'dbelikemyeyeswouldbeclosingandI'dbedroolingonmyselflikeIreallywanttodothisbutIcan't.

Thecan'tisn'tawordIuselightly.Ican'tbecausemyfreakingbrainwon'twork.Formeitwaslikemybodyisbetrayingme.Mykneeshurtallthetime,myfeetareflat,walkinghurtsallthetime.That'snotokay.FormehavingaweakbiologicalstartmeantthatifI'mgoingtodothethingsIwanttodo,havingcontrolofthatmeansthatmymeatwillsupportmybrain.That'swhatmakesmedoit.

NeilStrauss: Iwouldargue,Iknowwehavetoendinasecondbecausethedesperatehousewivesareoutsidewaitingtogetintoourstudio.

DaveAsprey: Theycanwait.They’redesperate.

NeilStrauss: Wegottodoit.Ithoughtthey'dbelate.

DaveAsprey: Ididtoo.

NeilStrauss: Maybewe'lltalkaboutthisoffair.

DaveAsprey: Sure.

NeilStrauss: Here'smythought.Mybeliefis,otherpeoplewouldbelikethatandjustmaybeacceptitorletgoofthisbecausethere'snothingIcando.IthinksomethinginyousaidI'mnotgoingtobeavictimofthis.Ihavecontroloverthis.Maybetherewassomethinginyourchildhoodwheremaybeyourneedsweren'ttakencareofinthesamewayandyoulearnedthatyoucouldbeselfsufficientandtakecontrol.

DaveAsprey: I'llexplorethat.Idon'tknowwhatprecipitatingthingthatwouldbe,butit'saveryvalidquestion.

NeilStrauss: Givemefiveminutesafter,we'lldiscussit.

DaveAsprey: Okay.Wewilltalkafterthis,I'mdyingtoknowwhatyouhavetosay.There'sonemorequestionI'mgoingtoaskyoubeforethedesperatehousewivescomeinandwrestleustothefloor.Thatisthefinalquestionforalltheinterviews.Threethings,ifsomeonecametoyoutomorrowsaidIwanttokickassateverything,whatarethethreemostimportantthingstoknow?

NeilStrauss: Humility.Numberonethingyoudoifyou'renotkickingass,andyou'vebeendoingyourbest,thenyou'vedoneyourbestwithyourcurrentbrain.Youneedtoacceptthatyoumaybeknownothing.B,mentorship.Findinganyonewho'sbetteratitthanyou.It


28

doesn'thavetobeDave,itcouldliterallybejustanyonewho'salittlebitbetterthanyou.Thirdone,andIjustlearnedthislessonrecentlyfromwatchingmyninemonthold,iswhenhe'stryingtorolloverorsituporwalkorlearningtheseskills,hecandoitalldaywithoutgetting-he'llpracticeit,he'llpracticeandpracticeallday.It'sonlytheveryfewtimeswhenhetriestodoitthathefailsorthathegetsfrustrated.There'snofailurewhenyou'repracticing,there'sonlyfailingwhenyou'retrying.Thethirdthingwouldbepracticeinsteadoftry.

DaveAsprey: Oohlovethatone.Veryprofound.Neil,it'salwaysapleasure.It'sbeenanhonortohaveyouontheshow.YournewbookTheTruthabsolutelyisworthreadingforawholevarietyofreasonsoutsideofrelationships.You'vedevelopedareallyinterestingsenseofjustselfawareness.Kudostoyouforthecouragetojustputitoutthereinprint.Wherecanpeoplefindyouandwherecantheyfindyourbook?

NeilStrauss: Thebook,hopefullyanywhereandneilstrauss.com.Idon’tknowwhyIsaydotcomanyway.JustGooglemyfriggingname.It'sthewebsiteandIdohaveamailinglistwhereIreallydon'tmarketstuff,IjustwritedowngreatideasthatIshareoccasionallythatIthinkaregood.

DaveAsprey: Awesome.Ifyouenjoyedtoday'sshowthere'ssomethingspecialyoucandobecauseBulletprooftheCookbookjustcameout.GotoAmazonandbuyTheTruthandbuyBulletprooftheCookbookatthesametime.Thenthey'llbebondedtogether.Thistimeeverytimesomeonewantstobuythecookbook,they'llseeNeil'sbook,everytimetheyseeNeil'sbookthey'llseethecookbook.Thenwebothwinandthatwouldbeawesome.

NeilStrauss: Youcanbehealthyphysicallyandpsychologically.

DaveAsprey: Yeah.Theygowelltogether,right?Neil,thanksagain.

NeilStrauss: Thanksthatwasgreat.

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