transcript – feasting and fasting with brad pilon -...

© The Bulletproof Executive 2013

Transcript – Feasting and Fasting with Brad Pilon -

#348

Bulletproof Radio Brad Pilon #348

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Speaker1: BulletproofRadio,astateofhighperformance.

Dave: It’sDaveAspreywithBulletproofRadio.Today’sepisodeisare-masteredversionofoneofthebestinterviewsI’vedonetodate.You’retotallygoingtoloveit.IpromiseyouthatIwillnottakeyourtimetodirectyourattentiontosomethingthatisn’tabsolutelystellar.Enjoythisepisode.We’veremastereditforyou.

Whatthisisdoingisit’sfreeingupalittlebitoftimeformetofinishthenewbook.It’salsomakingsurethatyou’veseenthemostimportant,mostimpactful,mostusefulcontent.IbelievereallydeeplywithBulletproofRadiothatgiventhatwe’repushing50milliondownloads,thenumberofhoursthatareconsumedjustlisteningtoBulletproofRadioismorethan100humanlifetimes.That’sabigresponsibility.I’mnotgoingtowasteyourtime,notwithnumberslikethat.Thisisoneofthoseinterviewsthatyouabsolutelyhavetohear.

Today’scoolfactsofthedayisthatpeoplewithredhairneedabout20%moreanesthesiathenpeoplewithbrownorblondehair.Wethinkthat’sbecausetheyhaveadifferentMC1Rgene,whichiswhatcausestheredhairandfairskin.Micewiththatgenehaveahighersensitivitytopainaswell.Thismeansthatifyouhaveredhair,Imeannaturalredhair,thatwouldmeanthatmaybeyoureallyaremoresensitivetopainandyoualsoprobablyhaveahardertimedetoxingsomeotherchemicalsintheenvironment.Thosefrecklesthatmakeyoucute,mayalsomakeyoualittlebitmoresensitivetotheworldaroundyou.

Heyguys,DollarsShaveClubjustkeepsgettingbetter.Fouryearsagotheystarteddeliveringtheiramazingaffordablerazors.Nowtheyhaveover3millionmemberswhonolongeroverpayforaqualitymorningshave.I’llneveruseanythingelseagain.Nownewmemberscan’tgettheirfirstmonthfree.

DollarShaveClubisaboutsomuchmorethanjustrazors.DollarsShaveClubhasamission.Theywantyoutolook,smell,andfeelyourbest.They’vebeeninvestingmillionsinRandDdevelopingtheirownoriginalgroomingformulasforyourface,hair,andbody.Thestuffisamazing.Pre-andpost-shaveformulas,skinprotectionformulas,killerhairstylingproducts,andliterallythemostamazingsoapandbodywashI’veeverused.

Goingtothestoretobuyarazorisactuallyawful.Allthestufflooksthesame,there’stoomanyoptions,noone’stheretohelpyoufindtherightproductsforyou,andfrankly,they’relockedbehindcabinets.Youhavetobringabellorgotothefrontandharasssomeonetounlocktherazorblade.Seriously?Doyouhaveanyideawhyyouwouldwanttodothatorwhyyoupicktheshampooorbodywashthatyoudo?IjustgetallmygroomingstuffshippedfromDollarShaveClub.

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onlyafewbucks.That’sDollarsShaveClubdotcomslashbulletproof.

Today’sguestisareally,reallyinterestingguy.I’vebeenafanofhisworkforawhile,andI’mreallystokedtohavehimontheshow.He’sanexpertonintermittentfastingandhowitcanhelpyouloseweightandgainmuscle.He’salsotheauthorofabookcalledEatStopEat,whichcoversamethodofintermittentfastingwhichistherespecificallyforlosingfatwhilekeepingyourmusclemassandenergy.

Ifyou’relisteningandyou’velistenedtoafewoftheseepisodesfromme,youwouldunderstandwhyIthinkit’sprettyexcitingthatwe’rehavingthisconversation.Idothissortofstuffalot.ThatmeansthatourguestisnoneotherthanBradPilon.Brad,welcometotheshow.

Brad: How’sitgoing,Bud?

Dave: I’vegottoadmitsomething,Brad.

Brad: Hitme.

Dave: I’vereadyourstuff.There’sonlyoneproblem.I’veneveractuallyheardyousayyourlastname,sotellmeIdidn’tjustbutcherit.

Brad: No,man.Pilonisthemostacceptedway.IfyouwanttogetFrench-CanadianyoucouldsayPilon,butPilonisthepreferredoverPilon,PalanandalltheotherweirdonesthatIget.

Dave: Awesome.IusuallyjustgetcalledAss-spray,soIthinkyouwin.

Brad: Fairenough.

Dave: Youcantellthisisthefirsttimewechatted,butIfeellikeIalreadyknowyoubecauseofyourworkandjustbecauseIthinkwehavealotincommonfromthatperspective.YourblogisonBradPilondotcom,andyou’realsosomeonewhogrewupinCanada,whichiskindofcool.IuphereinCanadanow,butyou’reonthatothersideofthecountrywheretheyspeakforeignlanguagesandstuff.

Brad: Exactly,overinOntariojustanhouroutsideofToronto.We’reinthesamecountrybut,man,we’rewhat,sevenhoursbyflights?

Dave: Exactly.

Brad: Differentworlds.

Dave: Speakingofdifferentworlds,you’reaninterestingguyfromaneducationperspective.There’slotsofpeoplewhostudiednutrition.ThereisevenmorepeoplewhostudiedPE,essentiallyphysicalexercise,exercisescienceandthingslikethat.You’vedoneappliedhumannutrition.Ihavetosay,thedifferencebetweennutritionandappliednutritionisn’tthatclearmymind.Willyouexplainwhatmakeswhatyoudidapplied?


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Brad: Iwill,andI’mgoingtoprefaceitbysayingitwasjustasconfusingtome.IknewIwantedtogo

intonutritionandI’mlookingatthecourseoutlinesatmyschool,UniversityofGuelph,forappliedhumannutritionandnutritionalsciences.Twodifferentcourses,completelydifferentcourses.I’mthinking,allright,appliedhumannutritionbecauseIlikehumans.I’llgothatway.

WhatIfoundoutaboutprobablyrightbytheendoffirstyearisappliedtohumannutritionisthecourseyouwouldtaketobecomeadietitian.Humanbiologyornutritionalsciences,that’swhatyoumorewouldtakeifyouwanttobecomealabgeekinnutrition.Myfriendsinnutritionalsciences,youknowit’strue.

Myoneendedupbeingnutrition,butoneofnutritionalcounseling.Ofcourse,IdidmyfirstcounselingclassandIsaidwhatisthis.Iactuallytriedtotransferout.It’sahugelongstory.Iwasn’tabletobutwasabletotakesomeofthecreditsinsomeofthecoursesthatIwantedtokindofblendit.

Togiveyouanideaofhowmessedupthatis,partofthecurriculum,thismayhavechanged,I’moldnow,butpartofthecurriculumfornutritionalscienceswasnutrition,exercise,andmetabolismwithDr.JerryGraham,afrontierguyinthecaffeineresearchknowshisstuff.Thatwasmandatoryfornutritionalsciences,butanoptionaloneifyou’reinappliednutrition.Alittledifferentthinkingthere.Myundergradisinappliednutrition,whichistheoneyouwouldtakeifyouwantedtobecomeadietitianinCanada.

Dave: Fromthereyouwenton,andforgivemeforgoingthroughyourbackground,butthere’salotofpeoplewhododifferentthings.You’vedonethisallthroughcollegebeforeyougotintobeinganauthor.ItalkedwithsciencejournalistsandItalkedwithbiohackersandthenyou’vegotthepedigree.It’scool.Youalsostudiedproteinsynthesisandspecificallytheaminoacid,leucine.

Brad: Yes.

Dave: Allofthatknowledgehappenedbeforeyoustarteddoingintermittentfasting,right?

Brad: Absolutely.

Dave: You’vegotaprettysolidfoundationhere.WhatinthosestudiesmadeyoustartlookingatintermittentfastingandcomeupwithEatStopEatideas?

Brad: Thatwaskindoffun.Iwentformyundergrad,didn’twanttobeadietitian.EndedupinresearchforasportssupplementcompanyinCanada.SpentsixyearsdoingRandDthere,creatineresearch,leucineresearch,proteinresearch,phenylalanine,younameit.Duringthoseconversations,IrealizedIwasonthewrongsideofthetable.IwastheguywiththemoneyfundingthetrialsandIwantedtobedoingtheresearch.

Decidedtoleavethejobbecauseit’swhateverysmart30yearolddoes,isdropagoodjobandgobacktoschool.Iwentbacktostudynutritionalsciences,thistimemoreofascience-baseddigin.Throughatonofcrazyhappenstance,weendedupdecidingthebestplacetostartwould


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betostudynonutrition,sowhathappenswhenyou’renoteating.Theideawas,becauseobviouslynoteatingishorribleforyou.

Dave: You’lldie.

Brad: Youdie.Youbuildonthat.Thisissobadforyou.Thisiswhymyawesomedietisgoodforyou.Inthefirstcouplemonthsofthatoriginalresearchlookingatnoeating,iswhenIhadtomakeadecision.EverythingwasdifferentthanwhatIthoughtitshouldbe.Ihad6yearsinthebodybuildingindustry.Iknewyouhadtoeatevery3hours,ithadtobe300gramsofprotein.Youhadtoeatatnight.Youhadtowakeupat2AMtoeat.Thiswascommonknowledge.

I’mreadingthroughthesepapersbeinglikethemetabolismdoesn’tslowdown.Thatpaper’sjustwrong.Garbage.Thenyoureadthenextone,didn’tlosemuscle.Moregarbage.Bythetimeyou’re12,13papersin,you’vegottomakeacall.Eithereverybodyelseiswrongandyou’rerightormaybeyoudon’tknowasmuchasyouthinkyoudo.Idecidedtoredirectandstudytheeffectsofshorttermfastingonhumanhealthmetabolism.Thatwasmygraduatework.

Dave: There’sthatinterestingphenomenonthathappenswithallresearchersbecausewe’rehumans.It’sitcan’tbebecauseitisn’toritisn’tbecauseitcan’tbe.Thatcan’tbepossibleandthatkindoflogicisharmfultotrueresearchbecauseitletsyouconvenientlythrowoutthegarbage.Thenyou’relike,wait,Ijusthadanexperiencethatmatchedthegarbage.Nowthere’sthreegarbagestudies.You’relike,wait,thatwasactuallyinnovationnotgarbage,butthefirstonemighthavebeengarbage.

Brad: Youneverknow.You’rebuildingup.

Dave: You’reexperiencedthis.You’relike,noteatinghasbenefitsthatwedidn’tknowabout.

Brad: Exactly.

Dave: Whatbenefitsdidyoufind?

Brad: TheonesIwasmostinterestedincomingfrombodybuilding,buildmusclelosefat.Everythingelsewasjustminutia.

Dave: Totally,likelivingalongtimeandstufflikethat.

Brad: Absmyfriend,that’sallthatmatters.Themainthingwasfromthebodybuildingperspective,ifyoudidn’teatevery3hours,youlostmuscle.Thiswasguaranteedknownfact.Tostartseeingpeopleintrialswherewe’remeasuringmeanbodymassinDEXAandwerenotseeingchanges,andDEXA’sprettygood,it’sagoodmeasurement,itwouldbeconsideredgoldstandard,thatwastheonethatreallystruckme.I’mlikeokay,holdon,ifthey’renotburningmuscle,whataretheyburning?Ofcourse,youlookbacktotheresearchandyou’relikethey’reburningfat.

Dave: Thatwasair.Youcan’tburnfatifyou’renoteating.


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Brad: Itwasair.Thehardpartwasifthey’reburningfat,buttheydidn’teatanything,thenit’sbodyfat.Thefunpartaboutthatwas,you’reawarebutforanybodywho’snot,themeasurementofthefuelmixthatyouareburning,it’savery,actually,simplemeasurementjustofyourbreath,theoxygenyou’rebreathingin,thecarbondioxideyou’rebreathingout.It’sfundamentaltohumanphysiologyandrespirationresearch.Ifthatwaswrong,everythingweknowabouthumanphysiologyiswrong.Thatmeasurement,theRQ,consistentlyshowedthatthesepeoplewereburningmorefatastherefastwenton.

I’mactuallygoing,areyoukiddingme?I’vebeeneatingeverythreehours,wakingupat2AMtoeatbecauseifyoudon’teat,youburnmuscle.I’mfindingouttheseguysareburningfat.That’sallIhadtodowasjusttakeabreakfromeating.Thatwasthepartthatwasmostinterestingtome.

Dave: Thewholeidea,inthe90s,Iwasintothenaturalbodybuilding.Iwasnevercompetitive.Iwasa300pounder.IhavestretchmarksthatmeanI’llneverbepullingmyshirtoffstagebecauseIwasafatass.WhenIlookbackonthat,Iwasdoingthesamething.Asyouprobablyfoundinyourresearch,ifyou’regettingexcessiveamountsofprotein,there’sthislittlethingcalledammoniathatcanaffecthumanperformance.

Also,Iwasoverfeedingonprotein.Iwasgettingnotenoughfat,notenoughoftherightkindsoffatandIwaseatingallthedamntimebecauseIdidn’twanttolosemusclebecausemusclehelpsyouburnfatandIwasdesperatetoburnfat.

Brad: Thereyougo,exactly.Myfavoritewasworkinginanofficebuildingwithabout200mostlyguysintobodybuildingwithfreeaccesstoprotein.Theventilationsystemhadtobeoneofthebestventilationsystemsintheworld.Itwasbadsometimes,especiallyyouadapttoit.Itwasthenewhires,thenewemployees.You’relikedude,I’mhappyyou’reintothelifestyle.Youshouldgohomeforacoupleofdays.

Dave: It’saknownproblemwithexcessiveprotein.Ittriestofermentinthegut.I’veseensomeresearch.It’sintheBulletproofDietBookthat’scomingoutaboutafermentabilityofdifferenttypesofproteinsinthegut.Collagenactuallymakesareasonablefermentthick,createsbutyricacidalmostaswellasresistantstarchanditdoesn’tsmelltoobadbutifyou’retryingfermenteggs...

Brad: Wheycaseineggs,thestandard.

Dave: That’sjustnotokay.

Brad: It’snotgoodforanybody.

Dave: Doyouthinkthereisabiotoxicpolysaccharidekindofeffectfromhavingproteindoingthatinyourgut?Haveyoucomeacrossthatinyourresearch?

Brad: Ihaven’tbutIwouldbeinterestedinlongterm.Sixto8weeksisatypicalhigh-proteindiet.Samethingaswhattheystudy.Youstartat16,yougountilyou’re25beforeyou’reoutofthe


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bodybuildinglifestyle.That’sabigperiodoftimetobereallyconsumingultra-highamountsofveryprocessedprotein,too.Whenyou’reeating300gramsofproteinadayplus,it’snottypicalforthat300gramstobefromsteakandvegetablesourcesandchicken.It’snormallyabouta50-50splitoffoodandwheycaseinshakes;very,veryprocessed,quicklydigested,hitsthegutvery,veryfast.There’snocoagulationoranything,it’sjustrightthrough.ThatwouldbewhatIwouldbereallyinterestedintoseewhatthatdoeslongterm.

Dave: Youalsohavethatideathatbetween16and25your-cortexjustfinisheswiringitselfinat24.Nowifyou’veincreasedthenumberofbiotoxinsinthegut,whichitsurelyhastodowiththebacteriathatarethereandlotsofotherfactors,butifyoudothatduringacriticalformationphaseofyourbrain,Idon’tknowwhathappens.Idon’tknowthatit’sbadeither,butit’saquestioninmymind.

Brad: We’reonalittletangentforasecond,Ilovethistopic.Applyingtheresearchtothepopulationbasedonresearchonthesmallsubsetofevenage,ismyfavoriteone.Upuntilageofabout24,25,wearegrowinganddevelopingphysically,mentallylikeyousaid.Thenafterthat,you’refightingperiodsofdecay.Youhaveastudygroupofpeoplewhoare18to45.Ontheedgesofthat,bringthembackin,youhaveverydifferenttypesofhumanbeings.Wejustlumpthemtogetherandapplyittoeverybody,right?Itotallyagree.BreakingitdownbyageisfundamentaltounderstandingnutritionbecauseIthinkitchangesasweage.

Dave: I’vetalkedtoafewcompanieswhohavenowstartedtodorealresearchlookingatyourgenome,lookingatyourgutbiome,lookingatyourage,lookingatyourgender,lookingatyouractivitylevelsandthenmunchingallthatdatatogether.Whoknows?Inanotherfiveyearswemayhaveshockinglygoodinformationthat’sforyoubecauseofwhereyourancestorsarefromandbecauseyouliveinthisregion.We’lljustpullallthattogether.Youridealproteinratioforthenexttwoyears,proteintofatandhowoftenyoushouldeatandeverythingelse,wemayactuallybeabletoteasethatouttothepointthatyougotoarestaurant.Iwouldlikeoptionseven-six.That’smydreamanyway.

Brad: Loveit.That’sgood.

Dave: ButcherBoxdelivers100%grass-fedbeef,organicchickenandporkdirectlytoyourdoor.Alltheirproductsarehumanelyraisedandfreeofantibioticsandhormones.YoucanthinkofthemastheneighborhoodbutcherfrommodernAmerica.Eachboxcomeswith7to10poundsofmeat,whichisenoughforabout20individualsizemealsdependingonhowbigyouareandhowhungryyouare.

Youcanchoosefromfourdifferentboxtypes:allbeef,beefandchicken,beefandporkorthemixedbox.Myfavoritewouldbetheall-beef.Youcanalsocustomizeyourboxwithadd-ontypeslikebacon,ribeye,andbeefbones.Ilovethatstuff.Yougetsomehigh-qualitybacon,yougetribeyewhichisthebeststeakyoucanget,andbeefbonesarehowyoumakebeefbroth.

It’sbasicallyyourmeatforthemonthinabox.Theyalsoincludestep-by-steprecipecardsandanotefromthebutcherdescribingthecutsandfarmsfeaturedthatmonth.I’veseentheseguyseverywherefromMarkSissonshowtotheTodayShowandforgoodreason.Sourcinghigh


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qualitymeatyoucantrustishard,especiallyinsomeareasofthecountry.Thefactthattheydeliverforfreenationwideisprettycool.

Bytakingoutthemiddleman,grocerystores,andpurchasingdirectfromfarms,ButcherBoxcanhelpyoubuymeatatalowercostandthenyoubenefitfromthat.It’sacoolbusinessmodelthatmakessureyougetthebestvalueinsteadofjustpassingitoffonthesupplychain.

Thepriceisjust$129amonthwhichworksouttolessthan$6.50ameal.Everyboxcomeswithenoughmeatforatleast20individualsizemealsandshippingisfreenationwideexceptforAlaskaandHawaii.Sorryguys.Ordernowandgetfree100%grassfedburgers.Youget66-ounceburgersinyourfirstbox.UsethecodeBulletprooftogetanextra$10off.

GetstartedbyvisitingButcherBoxdotcomslashBulletproof.Youcancancelanytimewithoutpenalty,sogiveitatry.VisitButcherBoxdotcomslashBulletprooftogetyourfree100%grass-fedburgers.Yougetsixofthemand$10offwiththecodeBulletproof.Getyourmeatnow.That’sButcherBoxdotcomslashBulletproof.Let’sjumpbacktointermittentfasting.

Brad: Let’sjustgorightbackintothat.

Dave: Let’stransitionsmoothly.

Brad: Ithinkthat’sagoodsegueway.Wedidwellthere.Hitme.

Dave: Talkaboutglucoseregulationandspecificallyneuronalresistancetoinjurywhenitcomesdowntointermentfastingbecausehavingtoughneuronsisbadass.

Brad: Itisbadass.Mypersonalviewonitwithoutgettingtootechnicalisit’sjustanotherexampleofhormeticeffectfasting.It’sasmallstressthatwegothroughthattendstostrengthenthesystem.Iguessthat’sagoodgeneralizeddescriptionofhormesis.Thebody’sintroducedtoasmallstress,andthatsmallstressactuallyhasbeneficialeffects.Ifthestressweretogettolarge,itwouldbecomeanegativeonthehumanbody,butasmallamounttendstoallowthebodytolearntoadapt.

Ithinkthatalotofwhathappensinbriefperiodsoffasting,somaybenotaprolongedfastbutabriefone,tendstofollowthiskindofhormediccurvewhenitappliestothebrain,whenitappliestoautophagy,whenitappliestoeveninflammationresponses,alloftheseareas,Ithinkit’sthatsmallbriefstressthatcausesthe,whatweconsiderabeneficiallong-termadaptation.Idon’tthinkit’smuchdifferentthanaweighttrainingsession,ifyouweretolookatyourbodyrightafterweighttrainingsession,whetherit’sfunctionalMRIorsomethingwhereyou’reactuallylookingintothemuscle.Ifitwasaminuteafteratonofcalffreezes,you’dbelike,don’teverdothatagain.Whateveryoujustdidtoyourcalf,don’teverdothatagain.It’sabloodymess.Itlookslikeagrenadewentoff.Youlookthreeorfourdayslater,you’relike,allthemusclefibersareorganized,they’reabitbigger.Whateveryoudid,thatwasgood.

Ithinkit’salotlikethat.Wheneveryoudealwithsmallfluctuationswhetherit’stheincreaseinbloodfreefattyacids,ifit’sadecreaseinbloodglucosebacktoabasallevelthathastobe


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supportedbytheliver,whetherit’schangingovertoamixofblendingfuelsthatincludesketones,allofthattendstobeasmallstressoratleastanintroductionofanewmetabolicpathwaymaybewehaven’tbeenusingbecauseweeatallthetime.Thatintroduction,itstrengthensthesystem.That’showIfeelitaffectseverything,notjustthebrainbutyourentirebodyasaholisticapproach.

Dave: Haveyoucomeacrossfastinginducedadiposefactorinyourresearch?

Brad: Idid,andyouprobablyfounditinthesameareawhenlookinginthegutmicrobiome.

Dave: Amenbrother.

Brad: Thereyougo.Iwasreallyinterestedinthat.Thenamewasatip-offthatIshouldmaybelookintoit.

Dave: Alittlebit.

Brad: Fastingintroduced,Pilonisin.Reallyfascinating.ThethingIlikebecauseI’vebeenveryinterestedinthegutmicrobiome,veryinterestedinevenendocrinedisruptersfromtheenvironment,butpeopleknowmeforfasting.Ialwaysliketotrytotieitin.WhenIfoundthat,Ithought,nowwehaveaconnection.Nowwehavesomewaythegutmicrobiomeisinteractingnotonlywiththefoodsyoueatbutit’salsocontributingattimesyoudon’teatoranequivalentmatter.Ithoughtthatwasaveryinterestingthingthatisn’tmaybegettingenoughplaytimeasitdeservesbutonlybecause,ofcourse,it’sknownbythreeorfourdifferentnamesrightnow.

Dave: IcovereditintheBulletproofDiet.There’sanotherunrelatedstudytothatonethatlookedattheimpactofcoffeeandbutteronthegutmicrobiome.Funnyenough,especiallyifyouaddthebrainoctaneoiltoit,it’sessentiallygoingtotellthebiomeinthegutit’snotagoodtimeforyoutotellmybodytostorefat.It’ssuppressivebasicallyofthatkindofbacteria.

Polyphenols,theonesyoufindincoffee,areactuallyfeedingthebacteroides,theonesthatdon’thavethefastinginducedadiposefactor.It’sacomplexwayofsayingyourgutbiomeistellingyourbodytostoreextrafatortoburnextrafat.It’samplifyingwhatyourlivermakes.Funny,oneofthemechanismsofactionthatI’mhypothesizingforwhyIwasmagicallyabletoeatstupidamountsoffoodandactuallyloseweightwhenIwastryingtogainwait,like4000,4500caloriesadayfortwoyears,thenIthinkthatIhadtodealwiththat.

Inthemorning,ifyou’renotfeedingthebacteriaanythingtheycaneat,whetherbecauseyou’rejusteatingnothingorwhetherbecauseyou’reeatingonlyfat,whichdoesn’treallyfeedthebacteria,youcan’thaveanamplificationofthatonesignal.That’sprobablyapartofwhypeoplegetsomebenefitsfromthingslikethat.

Brad: Justthink,becausetheonethingwedoknowfromresearchisthatwhileobviouslyaminoacidsandglucosedohavetheabilitytoknockyououtofthefastedstate,fatdoesn’t.Youstillhavetodealwiththefat,it’sstillthere.Itdoesn’tdisappear.IntermsofactuallyaffectingwhatIwouldconsideraclassicexampleofafastedstate,growthhormoneincreases,insulindecreases


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glucosebacktoabasallevel,thathappensevenwhenfatisfedatanamountthat’sroughlyequivalenttoyourbasalmetabolicrate,soldlargeamountsoffat.

It’sveryinterestingbecausenowwearelookingatreallytwoseparatesystems,yourbodyandyourgutmicrobiome,workingtogetherwhichonlymakessense,otherwise,whywouldtheybetogether.Theyhavetobesynergisticsomehow.

Dave: Theycouldbe.Theyalsocouldjustbeparasitic.

Brad: Synergistic,parasitic?

Dave: Icomeatthisfromacomputerhackperspective.Mybackgroundisdecisionsupportsystemswhichisasubsetofartificialintelligenceandliterallyhacking.IaccidentallyworeoneofmyhackerT-shirtstoday.Greatsegueway.

Anyway,oneofthefirstthingsyoudoifyouwanttotakecontrolofasystem,whetherit’syourbodyorsomeoneelse’scomputer,isyouwanttogetinthereandlookandseehasanyoneelsetakencontrolbecauseIcouldexploittheircontrolmechanisms.WhenIstartedlookingatmybody,IthinkwhywasI300pounds,whywasIfatandinflamedallthetime.Thatgutbiome,they’renotthereformybestinterests,they’retherefortheirbestinterests.TheirbestinterestisItookoverthebody.Idon’tcareifhedoesn’thaveasixpack.Iwanttomakesurehehasextrafuelincasethere’snotenoughfoodforme.Thisismywalkingsupportsystemasofbacterium.Yousaidtheyaren’tthatsmart,butemergentbehaviorhappenssotheydon’thavetobesmart.Theyjusthaveacoursesetofrules.

I’mlike,okay,theselittlebastardsaretellingmetostorefatwhenIdon’twantto,sotakethat.

Brad: Youlookathowtheircommunication,theyshareDNAthewaywewouldtextmessageeachother.It’slike,youneedthis?Here.Thereyougo.Theyadaptunbelievablyquickly.It’sfunnywearecallingthemtheylikethey’readifferentunitbecausetheyactuallyare.

Interestingfromwhatyoujusttalkedabout,theonlytakeawayIhaveisthatDaveisgoingtoberesponsibleforSkynet.Ithinkthat’swhatItookfromit.

Dave: BioSkynet,it’stotallydifferent.

Brad: Totallydifferent.Good.TheflesharoundtheTerminator,goodforyou.

Dave: That’sevil.

Brad: Thetermgutmicrobiome,andit’sroleinfasting,it’soneofthosenicheareasrightnowwherewealmosthavetolooktotheplacebogroupswhoweren’teatingandseewhathappenedtothemtogetanidea.Prettysoon,researchtakesawhile,soyou’vegotyour6to8weeksstudythatactuallytookabout14weekstodoandthenyouhaveyourwholeprocessofwriting,revisions,gettingitpublished.Inacoupleyears,Ithinkit’sgoingtobeanotherbigarea.


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Dave: Nowwe’vepumpedupintermittentfasting.I’mactuallyfascinatedthatyou’velookedintowhathappensifyoueatonlyfat.HonestlywhenIstartedsomeofmyBulletproofexperiments,Ifeelfreakingamazing,butIdidn’thavealltheresearchthatIhavenowaboutwhatarethereasonsit’sdoingwhatIcanfeelitdoingandIcanmeasureitdoing.Icameacrossstuffsimilartowhatyoudidthatsaidfatdoesn’thavethesameeffectasproteinorsugaronthebody.IfIjustdothat,whichisnotnatural,Idon’tthinkveryoftenwe...I’lljusteatthehumpofftheBuffalowithnothingelseandjust..

Brad: I’lljustleavetherestofthecrows.

Dave: MaybeI’llmakeanicesmoothieoutofit.Giventhatyou’vegotthat,Iwouldlovetogetyourprofessionalopinion,andyoucansaypositiveornegativeonthewholeideaofconsumingonlyfatduringanintermittentfastjustforenergyorforfeelinggood.

Brad: That’sthehardpartbecauseIknowfromaweight-losspointofview,youstillhavetodealwiththefat,itstillexists.Intermsofafeel-goodenergeticpointofview,it’shardtomeasureintrialsinawaythatwillevercomeacrossassignificant.Whatyou’reaskingyoursubjectstodoisbeintunedwithhowtheyfeelwithoutaplaceboeffectofmesaying,heyDave,howdoyoufeelrightnow?Ohcrap,good.Inevereventhoughtaboutit.

Ithinkthere’ssomethingthereandIthinkmaybethebestwaytodoitwouldbeinsteadoflookingatjustaplacebo,you’dalmosthavetogocoffeeversuscoffeewithfat,touseyourthingorfatversussomeformofplaceboratherthanjusttofast.

Dave: LikeOlestraorsomething?Ormaybe..

Brad: ...turnedoutgreatincomparison.Iseetheideaand...

Dave: Here’saninterestingresultthatIthinkisgoingtofascinateyou.Iactuallydidthisstudy.Wedidsevenmeasuresofshort-termexecutivefunction,likethreebackmemoryandfingertaptimeandstufflikethat,quantifiableuniversitygrademeasures.Wetestedpeopleoncoffeefromaselectionofcornercoffeeshops,coffeelabtestedtonothavemoldtoxinsinitandbothofthoseoptionswithbutter.Wearebasicallyblackcoffeeversusblackcoffeeandbutternomoldcoffeeandversusbutterandregularcoffee.

Whatwefoundwasputtingbutterincoffeeimproved,whetheritwasbadcoffeeorgoodcoffee,thatitimprovedalmosteverythingexceptonething.Ithinkitwasavisualcolorperceptionthingwentslightlydown.

Brad: Testor...okay.

Dave: Alltheotherones,essentiallynomoldcoffeeoutperformedmoldycoffee.Butterthough,didn’talwaysoutperform.Youknowifthereisbutterinyourcoffee.Wewereexpectingasubstantialplaceboresultforbutterbutbutterunder-performed,whichmeansthatweprobablydidn’thavetoomuchplaceboinit.Butterstilloutperformednotputtingbutter,buttherewereafewcaseswherebutterwasn’tasgoodasjustthedifferencebetweenthecoffees.


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Brad: You’dalmostwanttowonderifdoingthesametrialwiththesamecoffeesbutdecaf,ifpossible

andgetthecaffeineoutofthereasmaybeaconfounder.

Dave: That’sagoodidea.I’mfundingsomemoreresearchondifferentfrontsthere.Thereisaninflammationsideonwhatcoffeeoilsdoforyouandthenthereisacoffeegutbiome.Iamlookingintothismore.Ofcourse,everyonesaysyouhavecoffeeandyouhavethisexcessivelypurifiedcoconutoilstuff.Becauseyou’refromthesupplementbusiness,halfthepeoplewillsayitwasfundedbyindustry.I’mlike,I’mnotindustryandI’llpublishthedata.It’sthebestIcando.

Brad: Beingtheguywhohandedresearchersmoney,I’lltellthatyoudon’treallyhavethatmuchsay.Ifanybody’sknownaverywell-knownpersonwhoperformsresearch,theyareratheropinionatedandtheydon’treallytakeadvicekindly,especiallywhenyou’reyoungerandyoudon’thave20yearsofpostdoctoralexperience,theyjustignoreyou.

Dave: Hiringrealscientistsisamazing.Theyactlikescientists.It’sagoodthing.

Brad: Itisagoodthing.Withthecoffeethingandeventhebutterthing,Ifinditinterestingbecausegettingbacktosupplements,IhaveBrad’swheyprotein,butatanygiventime,Imaybesourcingmywheyproteinfromfourorfivedifferentprovidersdependingoncost.Myproteinmaybedifferentnowthenitwaslastyear.Nothing’schangedonthelabel,Ijustboughtitfromsomeoneelse.Yourbutters,ifyoudon’tknowexactlywhotheycomefrom,theymaychangedairiesdependingoncosting.

Dave: Wecontrolledthat.WetoldeveryonetouseKerryGoldIrishButterwhichcomesfromaselectionofIrishfarms.Whatdoeschangeingrass-fedbutteris-

Brad: Seasonal?

Dave: Seasonal.Theyalldidthetestsatthesametime,butwastheirbutterthreemonthsoldorsixmonthsoldbecausethatchangestheseason.Ididnotcontrolfortheagedateonthebutter.

Brad: Crap.

Dave: Weprobablycouldhaverecordedthatbutitwasn’tstatisticallysignificantbecausethesamplewasn’tbigenough.

Brad: Ihaveahardtimewithanydairystuff.YouandIarereally,reallylucky.BeinginCanada,alotofourcowsarejustgrass-fed.Youdrivebyandseethem.WheneverybodyintheUSwasupontryingtofindgrass-fedbutterandgrass-fed...I’moutinthecountry,too,soIshouldn’tcaveatthat,butIlookedaroundmeandhowdoyounotfindthem,they’rerighthere.Itwasn’tuntilgoingdownintotheUStovisitalotmorethatIwaslike,Igetit.ThereisfundamentaldifferencesbetweenCanadaandthenIreland,Scotland,theUS,intermsofyouraiseyourcows.

Dave: ItturnsoutthatgettingpasturedbutterhereinCanadaisreallyhard.Mostofitisfedgrain


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becauseyougethigherjustforthedairything.There’salsoanationalquotasystemwhere-

Brad: Wheretheyfinish,right,grainfinishing,Ibelieve.

Dave: Notfordairycows.Dairycowsarealwaysfedgrainbecauseyougettwiceasmuchmilkthatwayeventhoughit’slowerquality.Forthebeefcows,someofthemaregrass-fed,somearen’tandsomeofthemarefinishedtogetthemarbling.It’sgottentobesuchapointthatfinallyOrganicMeadowstartedputtingapasturedstickerduringthesummermonthsfortheirbutter.That’stheonlynationalbrandinCanadawhereyougetpasturedbutterandthere’safewlocalones.Beforethat,therewasthislittlebuttersmugglingracketwherepeoplewould-

Brad: Theblackmarketbutter-

Dave: Youhaveaspecialvestwithbuttersticksinit.Youwearitcarefullyandtryandmakeitover...Kidding.ThereareliterallythousandsofCanadianswhodriveovertheborderandbuytwocasesofgrass-fedKerryGoldIrishButterbecauseit’snotlegaltoimportinCanada.It’slike,comeone,couldn’twejustgetithere?What’sthedifference?

Brad: Youknowwhatwehavein...I’mgoingwayofftopichere,aGuernseymilk,cow.TheyhaveGuernseyicecreamandGuernseybutteraswell.Foranybodywhodoesn’tknowwhatwe’retalkingabout,differentcows,differentbreeds,Iguess..

Dave: Yeah,species.

Brad: Differentspecies,provesverymarkedlydifferentmilks,inflavor,incolor,inmacronutritionandmicronutritionprofiles.WeallhavegonewiththestandardacrosstheboardbutI’mjustlucky,Ithinkit’sEDManoristhenameouthereinOntario.They’vegotafantasticGuernseymilk.WhenItasteit,howcouldmilkbesodifferent?That’swhenIrealizedthatmustaffectthenicecream,butter,everythinggoingdown,creamer,everything.It’sinterestingwedon’thavethatmuchselectionavailabletouscomparedtowhatisactuallyavailabletous.

Dave: There’stheFrenchbuttersandtheGermanbuttersandallthis.Wemaysoundlikebuttersnobs,butIproudlycallmyselfabuttersnob,justlikeI’macoffeesnobandI’mabuttersnob.Itmatters,plusthere’sataste.

Brad: Thereisatastedifference.Absolutely.We’vedonebutter,we’vedonecoffee.Whatdoyouwanttodonow?

Dave: Iwasn’tplanningonanyofthat.YoucanactuallyanswerquestionsthatIhave.I’veneveraskedanyoneelseaboutfastinginducedadiposefactorwhoknewwhatitwas.Boom,yougotit.

Brad: Therewego.

Dave: Iwantedtoaskyouanotherquestionthat’snearanddeartome.I’vedonealotofresearchonfertilityandepigenetics.Infact,Iwasaco-authorofabookaboutthatwithmywife.Whenitcomestointermittentfastinginwomen,it’sbecomecommonpaleoknowledgethatwomencan


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getmoreadrenalstressandtheycangetfertilityorevenlosetheircycleentirelywhenthey’reintermittentfasting.What’supwiththat?

Brad: Iwon’tlie,thisirksme.Itirksmebecausewhatwe’vetakenisknownphysiology,knownbiologyandusedthecrapoutofitbecauseitwasbeautifulforSCO.Whenyoucouldn’tgetanySCOatallforintermittentfasting,allyouhadtodowasisintermittentfastingbadawomanandboom,youweregettinghits.

Ithappenedaboutayearagoandwhathappenedwaswetookaknownthing...Probablymostpeoplewouldhaverecognizedthisasafemaleathletetriad.Youhaveacombinationofverylowbodyfat,excessiveexercise,verylowcalorieintake.Thatsystemsetsupforamenorrheainwomenandmultipleotherproblems.I’llgettohowthisappliestomeninaminute,too.It’sthisideathatyougettotoolowofabodyfat.You’renoteatingenoughandyou’reexcessivelyexercising.Thingsaregoingtoshutdown.Thatincludesyourperiod.

Whatwasinterestingisthefitnessworldspecificallycaughtontotheideathatwomenshouldn’tfastatallbecausesomewomenatfourteenpercentbodyfatwhoaretakingpartinmarathonsandpreparingformassivecompetitionsstartedhavingproblems.

Thegeneralideahereisthatfasting’satooljustlikeanythingelse.Theleaneryouare,thelessyouneedtofastwhichtoanyoneoutsideoffitnessiscompletelylogical.Thelessbodyfatyouhave,thelessyouhavetodiet.It’stakesfastingrightoutofitbecauseyou’redone.Thegoalisn’tzeropercentbodyfat.You’reshredded,youhavesixpackabs,you’reokay.Youcantryeatingmaintenanceorabove.That’sthegoal.

Wetookittoapointwheretherewasneverabodyfatlevelthatwaslowenough,therewasneveralevelofperformancethatwashighenough.Wewentrightbackintothinkingthatwecould,insteadofEatStopEat,wediet,stop,diet,runourassesoffandthengetconfusedastowhybadthingswerehappening.

ThereasonI’msomewhatirkedaboutthisisthatitdidraiseaveryvalidpointwhichistoalotofwomen,ifyouareexcessivelyexercisingoryou’realreadylean,forgetfasting.Thetopicisdieting.Youdonotneedtodietveryhard.ThepartthatIwishwasbroughttomorepeople’sattentionwasthatthesamethinghappenstoguys.Wejustdon’thaveasobviousofmarkersforit.Agirldoesn’tgetherperiod,shewillgotoherdoctorandsaysomething’sup.

Dave: I’vegottosayBrad,womeningeneralarebetterbiohackersthanmenbecausetheyhavebettersignalingandbetterbodyawareness-

Brad: Exactly.

Dave: ...becauseoftheirmonthlycycle.They’llseeitbeforewewill.

Brad: Youandme,let’simaginewe’reinourtwentiesandwe’reathletes.We’relean,we’refasting,we’redietingandwedon’tgotit.We’relethargic,we’retired,can’tgetoutofbed,nosexdrive.You’regoingtogotellyourcoach,“Coach,Idon’tfeelsogood.I’mkindoftired.”He’dbelike,


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“Dave,laps.Go!Don’teverbringthatuptomeagain.”

That’sthethingthatirkedmewasthatmanorwoman,youhavetothinkofitthisway,theleaneryouare,thelessyouhavetodiet.Forgetfasting,diet.Ifyou’refasting,becausethat’smygig,thentheleaneryouare,thelessfrequently,solessoftenortheshorterthedurationbecauseyou’veearnedit.You’relean.You’veaccomplishedwhatyou’retryingtodo.Nowyou’rebasicallyfastingforhealthbenefitsandasawaytokeepyourweightincheck.

EatStopEatspecificallywasdesignedbecauseofthis.Mypersonalstyleoffastingisfast,eatnormal,eatnormal,eatnormal,fast,eatnotfastdietcrazy,fast,orfast,fast,fast,fast,fast.Iimagineit’sthesamethingthatyouhavewithyourcoffee.Youjustwanttoputyourheadthroughawallbecauseeverybody’sdoingBulletproofCoffee.Theyputmargarineintheircoffee,Bulletproofcoffee.Margin,done.

Intermittentfastingbecamewhatyoulabeleverythingthat’sfasting.Peoplewhoweredoingmyfavoritethingeverispeoplewhoaredoingthe24hourfasteveryday.Figureouthowtheydoitandthensayingfastingdidn’tmakemefeelgreat.

Dave: Becauseyou’redoingitwrong.

Brad: IpromiseyouIdidmyresearch.Whenwritingthatbook,Ididfastfor72hours,realizedI’mnoteverdoingthatagain.Idon’twantyoutodoitandthat’swhyIdidn’twritethebookthatway.

Itwasirksomebecauseitshouldhavebeenobvioustomostpeople.Insteadofblamingthefasting,youshouldhavebeenblamingthecombinationofthelevelofbodyfat,thelevelofexerciseandthedietwhichincludes,butnotexclusivelythefasting.Itworkedaroundthere,butthatwasmymainissue.Weknowfromwhetherit’sfertilitydatatofemaleathlete’sdata,weknowthosethreethingsaren’tgreat,andthenexasperatingtheproblemwithfastinganddietandthenwhateverotherweirdthingsyou’redoingwithyourdiet.It’sarecipefordisaster.That’soneofthethingsIalwayswanttogetacrosstopeoplewithmyviewonfasting.

Fastingshouldbeusedasawaytoallowyoutoeatnormallyonthedaysyou’renotfasting.Thefastformewasthediet.WhatIdon’tthinkIevergotacrossclearlyenoughwasthatexactpoint.Thefastisthediet.Idon’twantyoutolayeritontopofyourdiet.Iwantyoutoreplaceyourdietwithit.That’spartofthenextupdatedEatStopEatismaybememakingitabitcleareristhatthisisonthedaysyou’renotfastingwhenyou’redoingEatStopEatI’dlikeyoujusttoeatresponsibly.I’dliketosaylikeagrown-up,likeanadult.Youdon’tgettoeatlikeit’sHalloweeneveryday.WhatIdon’twantisfast,800caloriesaday,fast,800caloriesadaycombinedwithfourhoursofexerciseandwonderwhyyou’recrashing..

Dave: There’salsothenotionoftotalbiologicalstressloadwhichissomethingwebothunderstand.It’snotjustexercisebutyoudidn’tsleep.Youhadtwelvehoursofaggressivemeetingsandthenyougotinafight.Maybeyoushouldn’tfastthenextmorning.

Brad: Yougotfired,camehomeandfoundoutyou’regettingadivorce.Maybetakeiteasy.It’sweirdIsaythatbutweactuallyhademailcorrespondencefrompeople.“Honestly,fromallmy


17

backgroundIdon’tknowwhat’sgoingon.Youshouldbelosingweight,”andthenhegoes,“ThisishorriblebecausealsoIjustlostmyjobandmywife’sleavingme.”I’mlike,“Youleftthatpartout.”

Dave: There’salittlecortisolfactor.

Brad: Thisisfairlysignificant.Let’sworkonotherpartsfirst.Thetotalbiologicalstressissomethingthatwedon’twanttoadmit.Wewanttobelievewe’reallprofessionalathleteswhojustgotmissedinthedraft.

Dave: Totally.

Brad: Wecantrain4hoursadaydespitethefactthatforme,almosteveryprofessionalathletemyageisretired.No,IstillthinkIshouldbeabletotrainfor2or3hoursaday,competeatthehighlevel4or5timesinaweek.Youhavetorealizethat’sfor20yearoldsinpeakconditionandonlythetop1%of1%,andtherestofuswhoaren’tthatperson,wehavetomanagethesethingsandbalancethemout.

Dave: IfoundthatIdiddoalotofintermittentfastingwithnothinginthemorningwhenIwasputtingtogethermyexperiencesforthebookandlearninghowtocontrolmybiologymore.Especiallyearlieron,Iwouldgetthe11:30,11AMenergydip.Iwasn’tstarvingorlikeI’mgoingtodie.I’minthemiddleofmyworkday,Ihaveasociallifeandthingsarebusy.Ican’tbringitrightnow.Ineedtodoit.ThatwasoneofthethingswhereI’mlike,wait,whatifIjusthadsomefatbecauseIreallybelieveinfastingbutIalsodon’thavetheprofessionalathleteluxuryofworkmyassoffandthenrecovermyassoff.Myrecoverytimeisverylimited.

Brad: Takeanap.Can’tdothatatwork.Thelittledips,andthey’redifficultbecausethey’redifferentforeverybody.

Dave: Howdoyounoticethem?

Brad: Forme,whatIfoundagain,foreverybodywhohasn’treadmybook,shameonyou,but,no,EatStopEatisa24hourfastbutdividedbetween2days.IfDaveandIweretostartfastingtodayat3,wewouldfastuntiltomorrowat3,so24hours.Anybodywho’ssayingtheydidn’tgettoeatbyfastingforadaystraight,that’stechnically36becauseyougonight,day,night;24hoursdividedbetween2days.Youeffectivelygettoeateveryday.

Theotherthingitgivesyouiscontroloveryourstart,stoptime.WhenIfirststarted,7PMto7PMwasadreamforme.Itwastheperfectfast.Ididn’tevennoticeitwashappening.Thentwokidshappenedandtherewereotherchanges.Sevento7to7,itdidn’twork.Itdidnotwork.By4,Iwasanangryfrustratedfather.Itwasn’tmyfault.Itwasthekids,butithappens.

Dave: Igetit.

Brad: AllIhadtodowaschangeittoa2PMto2PMfast.Everythingchanged.AlotofithastodowithIalwayswantyoutobegoingthroughyourpersonalhardestpartofthefast,usuallymy


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personalthoughtisit’swhenyou’rereallyswitchingdowntoanexclusivelyfatburningmetabolism,Iwantyoutobeasleepforthatpart.Iwantyoutobecompletelyoutofit.If11iswhenyou’rehurting,changingthosetimesaroundtendstohelp.

Theotherthingistherearelotsofverysmallcyclesinthebodywedon’treallytalkaboutthatallowyoutochangethingslikepyruvateandlactatebackintoglucose.Anythingassimpleas,ifyouhavetheluxury,gettingupandgoingforawalk.Itdoesn’tneedtobealongone.Itcanalsohelpifitisabloodsugarissue,it’snotalways.Itcouldbebloodpressure,itcouldjustbeyoureallywanttoeat.

Finally,it’sacceptingforpeoplelikeme,thatalotofthemid-daygrumpies,itwasn’thunger,itwasn’tmetabolic.Iwasjusthabituallytrainedtoeatthen.Iwasbreakingthattraining.Thatwasthehardestpart,gettingallthewaybacktomyfirstattemptatfasting.Thehardestpartoffastingwasn’tthenoteatingbecauseIwashungry.Itwasthenoteatingbecauseofmyhabits.WhenIdrivedownthatroadatthattime,Istopforcoffeeeverytime.DrivingpasttheTimHorton’sbecauseI’mCanadian,itwaslikeakniferightinthegutbecauseIknewIshouldbepullingover.Ittookawhiletogetusedtolettinggoofmyentrainedeatingstyles.Thatcouldbeittoo.There’sallkindsofwork-arounds.It’snevernotimpossible.

Thelastthingwhichissupercoolisyoucanstopfasting.Twenty-fourispickedbecauseIlikeit.It’sagreatresearch,it’smemorable.Twentyisstillfantastic.IfpeoplearelikeIcanalwaysmakeitto22andtheneverythingcrashes,I’mlike,thengoto21.You’regood.

Dave: Itendtodo18alot.Isthatstillenoughinyour...

Brad: Yeah.Twelveto72ismyresearch.Behonest,that’sgettingoutthere,evenforme.Youstartseeingsignificantchangesatthe12hourmark,evenbefore,dependingonhowmuchyouateprevious,themealrightbeforeyoustarted.Anythingpast12tome,you’reenteringintothefastingstate,you’restartingtomaketheshift.Insulin’sgoingdown,growthhormoneisgoingup.You’reseeinginflammationresponses.You’reseeing,let’ssayautophagicresponses.Idon’tknowifthat’stherightwaytosayit,autophagy.

Youseesomeothercoolthings,yourexcretionofthiolatesisincreasing.Inaslittleas12to15hours,you’restartingtoseetheenvironmentaltoxinloadsdeceasing.Itdoesnothavetobe24.Ijustprefer24over2.TheoccasionalbreakfromeatingisreallyallI’masking.Eighteenifthat’swhatyoudoisbeautifulalso.

WhenI’mbelow10%,Idoone24hour,one20hour.IfI’mbeachreadyorI’mbeingreallyvainjustgettinglean,I’lldoa20anda20becauseI’mlean.Idon’thavetodomore.Alotofitdependsontheavailablefuelsourceofyourbodyfat.Ifyou’vegotatonofit,youcanprobablyhandle24.Ifyou’vebeendieting,you’releaner,and24isgettinghard,stopdoing24.That’showIviewit.

Dave: Beinglessdogmaticishelpful.Youmentionedthattoughpartwhenyou’rebody’skickingoverintoketosisandhowthat’sstressful.Doyouhaveanobjectiontousingatablespoonof,inmycaseIwouldusestraightC8MCTbecauseit’sthestuffthatgoesmostquicklyintobeta


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hydroxybuterateandthenintocoenzyme8andATP.Essentially,youcanmeasureketonesinbloodahalfhourafteryoutakethatstuff.Kickstartingketosisthatway,goodorbadduringANintermittentfast?

Brad: Idon’thaveaproblemwithanythingduringthefastingwithacoupleofcaveats.Ifyou’retryingtosneakyourwaythroughafast,youcouldhavetotallymadeit,you’rejustbeinglazyorgivingintothewant,there’sabigdifferencebetweendoingsomethinglikeyou’retalkingaboutandgrabbingahandfulofM&Msjustbecausetheywerethere.

Mybigthing,whenIfirststartedwritingEatStopEatanditwasbeforetheBulletproofcoffeemovement,itwascanIhavecreaminmycoffee.Isaid,“I’dpreferyounotto.”“IfIdon’thavecreaminmycoffee,I’mnotfasting.”“Thenhavethecreaminyourcoffeeifthat’sthedifferenceingettingthebenefits.Ifaddingthecreamintothecoffeereducedyoufrom100%fastingbenefitto98.72%,I’mcoolwiththat.”

Alotofit’sthementality.Ifyou’redoinglittlethingsbecauseyouthinkit’sgoingtoimproveit,byallmeans.Ifyou’redoingthingsbecauseotherwiseyou’renotgoingtomakeit,again,byallmeans.Ifyou’regettingawaywithdoinglittlethings,that’swhenIwantyoutogrowupand...YoureallyhavetowaitfourhoursandyoucanhavetheM&Ms.

Dave: Verywellsaid.Ireallyadmirethat.Forme,itwasIwanttobringitallthetime.Iwantthisenergy.Icandothis.I’vedoneitmany,manytimes,butIsufferaperformancedecreasetowardstheendofitthatIjustdon’twant.IcanstompthatoutandIcanstillgetwhatI’mlookingforfromitwhichiswhyIdoit.It’sveryindividual.Ilovethatyou’resoopenabouthowmanyhoursareyougoingtodothing.

Brad: Justdoit.There’snorightwaytodothis.Thereiswrongwaysforyou,butthere’snowayformetotelleverybodyexactlyhowtheentireworldshouldattemptfasting.Iintroduceyoutoitandyouplaywithituntilyougetwhatworks.

Dave: Let’sswitchgearsabit.Oneoftheotherareasofinterestformeisneuroplasticityandbraintraining.Idoalotofneurofeedback.I’vedonethisforyears,manytimesforweeks.Ifoundcertainlythathavingketonespresent,allowsmetospendmoretimetrainingmybrainbeforeIhitthewall.Youcanbonkfromridingtoofarorrunningamarathon.Youcanbonkfromneurofeedbacktoo.Iwasabletomovethewall.

Idon’tknowifthere’saneuroplasticitycomponentorifit’sjustaketonemakingATPthing.Sharewithpeoplewhoarelisteningwhatisneuroplasticity,theshortversion,andwhatdoesEatStopEatorothertypesofintermittentfasting,whatdotheydoforyourneuroplasticity?

Brad: I’veneverbeenaskedthat.Todefineneuroplasticityinageneralway?

Dave: Yeah.Theideathatyournervoussystemcangrownewnerves,BDEandFlikefactor,thingslikethat.

Brad: Iwanttosayit’stheflexibilityofyourneuronstoadapt.Idon’tknowifthat’sexactlytheeasiest


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waytoexplainit.You’rewiththebrainasasystem,isthewayIliketothinkofitandtrulyitsflexibilityalmostlikewetalkedaboutwiththehormeticresponse,itsabilitytoadapttoitsenvironmentandthestressesplacedonit.That’salotofwhatneuroplasticityis.WoulditbefairtosaythatneuroplasticityisalmosttheoppositeofAlzheimer’s?Wouldpeoplegetthat...

Dave: Maybe.Wecanlookatsynaptogenesis,growingnewsynapsis.Wefiguredoutyourbraincandothatwiththeresponsetoenvironmentalinputs,andthenthere’smyelinationormylenogenesiswhichisthebraincangrowinyourmyelinwhichhappenswhenyoupracticealot.Thosearethetwomechanismsthatweknowaboutfromneuroplasticity.Iknowthatyou’velookedatwhatintermittentfastingdoesforwhatthebraindoes.

Brad: It’shard.I’lltellyouwhereIgetcaughtonthisintermsofanysortofneuroplasticity,anysortofcognitionresearch,evenmemoryrecallStrooptest,isthere’salotofresearchouttherebuttheydon’tdividefastwithadequatehydrationawayfromthefastthatincludewaterandfundamentallytheshort-termfastthatdon’tincludewater,youhaveaprettyimmediatereductionincognitiveability,themanagementofstressloads,theabilitytore-countnumbers.YoudobloodyawfulonaStrooptest.

Theadditionofwaterseemstobeimportant,butwedoknowfromthewayintermittentperiodsofnoteating,sochronicallyeffectthebrain,we’regettingtothepointwhereitseemstobe...Idon’twanttocallitanimprovementmoreasIdowhatwe’reseeingasasuggestioninadelayednon-improvement,delayeddecay,delayedstiffeningorlackofflexibility.

That’swhereIamwithitnow.I’mnotfarenoughintounderstandingthatresearchtosaywhetherornotweevenhaveahopethatit’sgoingtoreverseanything.You,you’reprobablyfartherintothatthanIambasedontheexperimentsthatyou’redoing.

Dave: There’sdefinitelyatonofresearchaboutketonesandAlzheimer’s.IhadDr.MarionNewportontheshowprettyearlyon.Shewastalkingaboutcoconutoilandketonesandthings.Weknowfastingcreatesketones.WeknowketonesseemtohaveabeneficialeffectonAlzheimer’sfromthosebodiesofresearch.Whethersomeone’severtestedketonesfromfoodversusketonesfromfastingonAlzheimer’spatients,Idon’tknow.

Brad: Theonethathurtmewaswhenthatresearchcameout,Idon’tknowifitwasalocalnewspaper,butyougottheideaoffastingforAlzheimer’s.Iwaslike,don’t.Alzheimer’sissodevastatingthatIhateseeingthatwecanfixitinthreedaysbyfasting.It’sencouraging.Man,whenIsawthatresearchcomeoutbecauseatfirstyou’relike,thisisamazing.Youseetheheadlinesanhourlater.I’mbarelythroughanalyzingtheintroductionandtheheadlinesarealreadycomingout.Don’tdothat.It’ssobad.

Dave: Also,wecallAlzheimer’sdiseasetype3diabetesinsomebodiesofresearchthatIhavetosaytheevidenceisstilloutonthat,butthere’sclearlysomecognitiveorsomebraininsulinresistancegoingonthere.

Brad: Theglucosetoxicitytheory,right?


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Dave: Yeah.Ithinktellingsomeonewhohasabloodsugarregulationissuewho’soldandhasweakmitochondriathatdon’teatforawhileandyou’llgetbetter.Honestly,Idon’twanttobedramatichere,butyoucoulddieifyoudon’teatandyoursystemisweak.Thatcanhappen.

Brad: That’soneofthosethingswhereindividualtypestuffiswhatyouwantthere,youwanttodealwith,whichiswhatmedicaldoctorsaregreatfor,wheretheydealwiththeactualpersonasopposedtomewhojustwritesablogforanybodytoread.Youhavetobesomewhatrealistic.

Thetwothingsyouhavegoing,youhaveconceptofglucosetoxicityintheactualbrain.Youhavetheideathatketosisiseitherhelpingordelaying.It’sreallyeasytogo,obviously,boom,theproblemisglucose,goketosis,everything’sfixed.Idon’tthinkwe’reanywherenearthereyet,butontheprotectivesideofthings,that’swhereIthinktheresearchshoulddefinitelymoveveryquicklyisintermsofpeople,you’repronetoAlzheimer’s,youhaveahistoryofAlzheimer’s,istheresomethingwecandohere.

Dave: There’sdefinitelysomehacksforAlzheimer’sdiseasethatareoutthere.Therearesomanypeoplewhohaveitanddon’tknowit.TherearesomanypeoplewhoknowtheyhaveitoralovedonehasitthattheInternetishelpingpeoplebelike,funny,mygrandparentsormyparents,Icantalktothemwhentheydothis.Theytalkaboutthatenoughtimes..things.

Brad: I’mtryingtorememberhere.There’ssomesortofconnectionbetweenapseudo-Alzheimer’sandcertainbloodpressuremedications.

Dave: Yes,yes!

Brad: Literally,youthinkyouhaveAlzheimer’s.Idon’tknowwhatit’slikeintheStates,butinCanadathere’sahandfulofspecialistsinAlzheimer’s.Onceyouthinkthatmightbetheissue,you’rewaiting7,8monthstomeetaspecialist.Inthemeantime,you’reondrugsforsomethingelse,diabetesandthatleadstobloodpressure.You’reonabloodpressuremedthatcanactuallybecontributingtotheAlzheimer-likesymptoms.That’shorrible,butit’salsomind-blowingbecausehowmuchofthatskewthedata.

Dave: IactuallyhavechronicallylowbloodpressureandIhaveforawhile.It’sprobablyaresultofchronicneurotoxinexposurefromtoxicmold.Ilivedinsummerhousesthathadmoldthatjackedmybiology.

Brad: Theblackmoldofdeathbehindthewalls?

Dave: Yeah.Infact,I’mdoingadocumentaryonthat.It’sbecomesuchabigproblemthatIdon’tknowwhyeverything’sfallingapartandI’mfatandI’mtiredorIjustlostmyedge.

Brad: Studenthousingor...

Dave: It’snotjuststudenthousing.TheexpertsI’veinterviewedarelike50%ofhouseshavewaterdamageatthelowendanditgoesupfromthere.Ibroughtinallthesephysicianswhohavebeenmadeillbymoldtoxins,andsomeoftheworld’stopexpertsandinterviewedthemall.It’s


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goingtobeanamazingthing.

Brad: Ifyouwanttobashyourheadagainstthewall...Iwasinres.ThefirstfewyearsinuniversityinCanadayou’reinres.Afterthat,youtendtogoinahouseandlivewithagroupofpeople.Wewereina30-year-oldhouseandweusedtohavewatergunfightsallthetime.You’rejustsprayingthedrywallwithSuper-soakerguns.Sorryforanybodywho’slivinginthathousenow.Iapologize.

Dave: It’sfunnybecauseathirdofpeoplehavegeneswhereit’sgoingtojusttrashthem.Iremembermyfreshmanyearofcollege,wehadoneofthose5-gallonwatercoolersintheroomanditleaked.Myroommatewaslike,“Itsmellsliketurtlesinhereallthetime.”Wehadmoldinthecarpet.Ididn’tknowIwasgeneticallysusceptible.I’mgettingacneandI’mgainingweightandI’mfartingdeathallthetime,whicharesymptomsofthisandmynoseisbleedingmanytimesadayandallthisweirdstuff.Ofcourse,mygradesarenotdoingverywellbecausemybrainisshutdown.Ihadnoideaatthetime.Yearslater-

Brad: Whenyou’reastudent,youhaveawatercoolerthat’sleaking,youputatowelunderit.Done.Problemsolved.

Dave: Youmighthaveafan.Itturnsoutthatforeveryoneit’sbad.Formethough,havingacquiredchroniclowbloodpressureasaresultofthat,thecognitivethingiswhatmademethinkofthis.Thecognitivethingyou’retalkingaboutwithAlzheimer’s,it’smetabolic.Youdon’thaveenoughoxygeninyourblood,inyourbrain,thenyou’regoingtohavelowperformance.Youcanincreaseoxygen.Ifyoudon’thaveenoughfuel,eitherglucoseorketones,you’regoingtohavelowperformance.Ifyougetallthatstuffinthereandyourmitochondriaisdamagedbysomethingthenyou’regoingtohavelowperformance.It’slikethisstackwheregetthefuelinthereandthenlet’sseewhathappens.

Let’ssee,there’stwootherbigquestionsIwanttoaskyou.Oneofthemisaroundcheatdays.What’syourtakeoncheatdays?I’vehadpeopleontheshowarelikeeatwhatevertheheckyouwantandotherswhoareintelligentlydoingyourcheatdayanddon’tsetyourselfback.Whereareyouonthatspectrum?CanIgooutandhaveapplepieandcherryturnoversoristhatnottherightapproach?

Brad: Idon’tliketheideaofchronicdieting,there’sacalorierestrictionthing.Idon’tmindifyouaveragedoutyourcalorieintakeoverthecourseoftwomonthsifitwaslow,butIreallyfeellikeyouneedtohavedaysyou’reeatingtoatleastmaintenance.EastStopEat’sdesignedsoalmostallyourdaysaretomaintenance.Ifyoudidn’twanttofollowEatStopEat,butyoustillwantedmetohelpyouwithyourdiet,I’dhaveyoudietingfor4or5daysandjusteatinguptomaintenanceon2or3days.

Ilikethoseperiodsofthementalstress,theegodepletioniswhatwecallitofdieting.It’sdifficult.You’reconstantlymakingdecisionsaboutfood.It’sexhausting.EveryonceinawhileIwantyoutotakeabreak.Ifyou’redietingvery,veryhardfortwoweeksatatime,doesthatsuggestthatjustonedayofover-consumptionisasolutionorshoulditbelonger?


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Iwouldoptforlonger.Iliketheideaofeatingtomaintenance.Idon’tliketheideaofacheatdaybeing,onceaweekIpretendit’sHalloween,ThanksgivingandChristmasallmashedintoone,thenIjustgototown-

Dave: Youeat6000caloriesinjust...

Brad: Yeah,fromSkittlesandM&Msputonapizza,thatkindofthing.

Dave: That’saquestionthere.IsacheatdayofSkittles,M&Msandpizza,evenwiththerightcaloricnumber,isthatdifferentinyourexperiencethanacheatdaywith...Iwouldrecommendgrass-fedsteakandsweetpotatoeswhereyou’reeating...it’snotreallyacheatday,butit’safullfuelday.

Brad: Thosearedependentforme.AfullfueldayasopposedtoI’mgoingtotrytomakeupforaweeks’worthofcalorierestrictioninoneday.Mygeneralopiniononthatkindofcheatwhereit’sgoingtobealargeamountofcaloriesabovewhatyouneed,it’sgoingtohappen.Iwouldn’tplanitin.You’regoingtohaveaweddingtogoto.You’regoingtogotoakid’sbirthdayparty.You’regoingtoeatthecake.Iwouldprefernottoplanthatintomydietbecauseit’sgoingtohappen.

Dave: It’sgoingtohappennaturallysoyoudon’tneedtohaveaspecialwhereyougooutandyoubuyaweddingcakeandeatthewholething.

Brad: Exactly.Seeeat-updayasopposedtocheat.Cheatgivestheimpressionthatyou’regoingforanewrecordofcalorieintake,butjustadayofeatingbackup.Ithinkthatthey’reextremelyhelpful,ifnotphysically,mentally.Beittheegodepletion,thepsychologicalpartofdietingcanbeexhaustingandmostlythereasonmostpeoplestop.Mostly,mostly.Thereasonmostpeoplestopadiet.

Totakeabreakfromthateveryonceinwhilewithoutundoingthedamage,Ithinkisafundamentalpartofthelong-termdietstrategy.TheissueIrunintowithpeopleisthatyouhavetounderstandyou’refastedordietedweightisabitofanexaggeration.Youhavethewaterloss.It’snotyourtrueweight.Onyoureatday,ifyourweightgoesupbyapoundortwo,pleasedon’tfreakout.It’swhenyou’redoneyourdieting,thenafter3or4daysyou’relikealltheweightcameback.I’mlike,“No,itdidn’t.Thatwasjustanartificiallow.Thisisaboutwhereyouarenow.Youshouldbehappy.Nowtrytomaintainthat.”

Thatwouldbetheonlythingismentallyyouhavetobepreparedforonthecheatday,youweight’sgoingtogoup.Peopleatdietingingeneralwhenitcomestoweight,yougetreallyhyper-sensitivetothesefluctuationswithoutadmittingthatyouhadtheexactsamefluctuationsbeforewhenyouwereheavy.Justbeawareofthatifyou’regoingtoenterthemintothischeatday,eat-updayintoyourdietthatyourweightwillchange,butinlong-term,it’sprobablygoingtohelpyoustayonthatdietlonger.

Dave: Brad,it’sbeenamazinglyfuntohaveyouontheshowandgettoasksomeofthesehardquestionsthatmostpeoplehaveneverheardof.I’mhopingthateveryonelistening,just


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enjoyedlearningmoreaboutfasting.Ifullyrecommendthatifyou’relisteningtothisandyou’retryingintermittentfastingoryoupracticeitregularly,playwiththetiming.EatStopEat24hoursistotallylegit.ReadBrad’sbookbecauseit’salsototallylegit.

Brad: Why,thankyou.Everytimeyousee24fromme,inyourheadgo24-ishandthenyou’llgetaflowofwhatI’mtryingtodo.

Dave: That’saTweetrightthere.

Brad: Perfect.

Dave: Brad,there’sonemorequestionthoughthatIaskeveryguestandthisisyourtop3recommendationsforpeoplewhowanttoperformbetter.Youwanttokickassatlife.Thisdoesn’thavetohaveanythingtodowithfastingbutitcan.Whatareyourthreebiggestnuggets?

Brad: First,outsideofthingsthataregoingtolandyouinjail,rulesareguidelines.They’reonlyguidelines.Especiallywhenitcomestodietandexercise,yougethungupintheserules,it’lldefeatyou.You’resupposedtodo3setsof6.Yousaidinsteadof6,youdidasetof4,nottheendoftheworld.Pilonsays24hours.IfIdon’tdo24hours,I’mnotdoingEatStopEat,24-ish.Staycoolwithit.Theseguidelines,etcetera,they’remeanttheretohelpandguideyouonyourway.Ifyoutreatthemasthesehard-fastrules,you’llburnout.That’snumberone.

Number2istheupsanddownsoflife,whetherit’syourweight,whetherit’sperformanceinthegym.Thepeoplewhocometomewantinghelpontheirdiet,andtheypresentmewiththeirExcelspreadsheetofeverythingandthey’reworriedabouttheselittleblips,whatyouwanttodoisreallythinkabouttheoveralltrend.Ifyougetcaughtupinthe2poundsup,2poundsdown,1poundupmentalityandtrytogobackwardsandfindoutwhythathappened,youcanfindamazingthingsandmakebreak-throughs,butalsoyoucanmakeyourselfcompletelyneurotic.Alwaysgowiththetrendofwhat’sgoingon.

Again,anotherlifethingI’mtakingfromdietorexercisebutyoucanapplyittoeverything,isreproduceability’sthekeytoresearch.IfDavehadsomethinganditturnedoutreally,reallywellforhimandthenItrieditanditturnsoutreallywellforme,then3ofmyfriendstryitanditturnsoutwellforthem,it’smorelikelytoberightthantheoneoutlierwho’sbraggingontheforumsofhowhe’s302poundsand5%ofbodyfatandyougetupsetthatyou’renot.

Reproduceability,thethingsthathavehadresultsformostpeople,somethingyoushouldpayattentiontothat,butstopthinkingthatyou’regoingtobuckthatsystem.Ifyouthinkyou’rebrokenandthatspecificthingisn’tworkingforyou,ifit’sworkedforalotofpeople,solet’slookatotherpartsofyourlifethatmaybetheissue.

Thisgoesallthewaybacktothatguywhowasjustlosthisjobanddivorced.Generally,thedietthathewasonwasveryreproducible.Lotsofpeoplehadgoodresultswiththat.Hisexerciseprogram,lotsofresultswiththat.Becausethey’resoreproducible,Iwasabletolookinotherareasofhislifeandfindtheissues.That’sanotherthing,isalwaysbeawareofeverythingthat’s


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goingaroundandlookfortheweirdblipsratherthanthethingsthatobviouslysitrightinfrontofyourfacethatyouwanttochangethatmightnotneedtobechanged.Thatlastone,there’sapointthere,Ipromiseifyoureplaythat,it’llmakesense.

Dave: Iwill.We’llboilitdown.Justkidding.Wewillhaveafulltranscriptontheshow.

Brad: Perfect.

Dave: Ifyouenjoyedthispodcast,doBradafavorandcheckoutEatStopEat.PleasedomeafavorandheadonovertoiTunesandleaveareviewforBulletproofRadio.Dothisasalaboroflovetohelpalotofpeopletryandgetsmartpeopleontheshow.ThatsucceededthistimewithBrad.Ireallyappreciatekindreviewsbecausethosehelpotherpeoplefindtheshow.

Brad: Perfect.

Dave: Seeyouallonthenextepisode.

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