think it through.3.thurman · 08/05/2011 · dr. matt cassidy interviewing dr. chris thurman good...

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Think it Through: #3 “In Relationships – 5/8/2011

Dr. Matt Cassidy interviewing Dr. Chris Thurman Good morning, again, and Happy Mother’s Day.

We are talking about working through a series of thinking topics. This time we are thinking it

through in relationships. In a lot of ways, we are talking about the maturity or the nurturing of the soul.

Soul in Greek is the word psyche. A person who studies the psyche or the soul is a psychologist.

So if we are going to think it through when it comes to relationships and the health of our souls, especially

in relationships, we are going to need a psychologist.

There are a lot to choose from all around the country. We could bring in anybody for that. But let

me tell you a story. Not that anyone would do but the best.

About ten years ago, I was at a preaching conference. There is a national preaching conference

every year in Boston and Gordon-Conwell sponsors that. In the section about how to connect with your

audience and how to care for them, they had the guest speaker come in from the counseling department of

Gordon-Conwell. The gentlemen was talking to the gang about how to relate to the well-being of people’s

hearts and he said – I will tell you the fast way of getting to this is if everyone here would buy this book

and read it. – He held it up and it was “Lies We Believe” by Dr. Chris Thurman. I thought – the golfer?

He wrote a book? Oh my. I came home and said to him – You do other things besides loiter at golf

courses. Good for you.

Chris is here because he is one of our favorite Sunday school teachers. What class do you teach?

Chris: Young Married’s class.

Matt: He is a favorite there. He has made his way through a lot of our adult communities, even

our youth ministry. But he is here because he understands relationships. He spent most of

his career talking about that.

Why don’t you introduce yourself to us. Tell us about your family and your profession.

Chris: Thank you for the introduction. I appreciate that.

I grew up an Air Force brat, so home was all around the country. I became a believer when

I was 11 and felt pretty early on, when I was a freshman in high school, that God was

calling me into counseling. I always had an interest in people’s emotional well-being and

how they were doing. I always had a heart for hurting people.


I went off to UT in 1971 to study psychology. I proceeded to take intro psyche and made a

D. So, I thought - This is not starting well. I did my undergrad there. I came back and did

my PhD at UT also. I met Holly at UT and if anybody knows Holly, they know …

Matt: That was during a dark part of her life, wasn’t it.

Chris: So, I talked her into marrying me and she is just awesome. I got my PhD in 1981 and went

off to North Texas to teach and to counsel at the University of North Texas. I went on to

work in the Dallas area for a number of years. Then I came back to Austin in 1991 to

basically do private practice and to raise the kids.

I have three awesome kids: a son who is a lawyer; a daughter who is working on her PhD

in psychology, and the youngest who broke my heart by going off to A & M. She went

over to the dark side.

Matt: I can’t imagine what your life is like and what business is for you. So, help us

understand that.

Chris: Well, I thought I would show everybody a clip to drive home what my day-to-day

professional life is like.

Matt: A day in the life of Chris Thurman.

* * *

[video clip of “What About Bob”-1991 movie. Opens with psychiatrist, Dr. Leo Marvin, played by

Richard Dreyfuss sitting behind his desk and the patient, Bob Wiley, played by Bill Murray, is sprawled

on the rug on the other side of the desk.]

Dr. Marvin: Are you married?

Bob: I am divorced.

Dr. Marvin: Would you like to talk about that?

Bob: There are two types of people in this world – those who like Neil Diamond and those who

don’t. My ex-wife loves him.

Dr. Marvin: I see. So, what you are saying is that even though you are an almost paralyzed, multi-

phobic personality who is in a constant state of panic, your wife did not leave you. You left

her because she liked Neil Diamond.

Bob: No, you are saying that maybe I didn’t leave her because she likes Neil Diamond but

maybe she left me?

Dr. Marvin: Yes. Ow, ow, ow. Dr. Marvin, you can help me. For the first time in my life, I feel like

there is hope. I feel like I can be somebody.


* * *

Chris: So, that is what it is like in my office every day, just tremendous insights and people doing

radical 180’s.

Matt: Now, are you Bill Murray in that skit? When your office, which …

Chris: Funny.

Matt: Here are some observations I have seen over the years. It is very interesting. There are

some people who are able to have relationships, deep ones, rather easily. Then there are

others who require a lot more work. There is something in them that prevents them from

doing that. That is one observation: some are easy and some have difficulty.

The other thing that is unfortunate is that I have found there are a considerable number of

people with vast amount of Bible knowledge who fall into the category of not being able to

have great, deep relationships. Some of the best Sunday school teachers I have sat under –

they don’t know how to relate. I have seen pastors who went to seminary and they can’t go

deep. I have seen seminary professors who have some of the worst relational skills I have

ever seen.

While Bible knowledge is necessary to have, deep, understanding, forgiveness and

courage, that sort of thing, there is not a direct connection there. Why is it that people can

know the Bible so well but be so clumsy and mean-spirited or unable to forgive? Have you

seen that?

Chris: Yeah, I have seen that too. It concerns me that is the case. As believers, we can allow Satan

to blind us to the fact that it is primarily about relationship. You and I would be the last to

not encourage people into the Word. But sometimes we miss the main thing which is God

created us for relationship with Him and with one another. Sometimes people come to

Christ and they really earnestly study the Word of God but they don’t necessarily let God

have His way with them about ‘love one another’ and be close to one another and lift up

one another and encourage one another. So it is rather tragic that sometimes in

Christianity, we have not pulled off the level of relationship health that we need.

Matt: So, I would say, because of some passages in the Bible called 1 John that if a person thinks

they have a very deep relationship with God but cannot, because they choose not, to have

deep relationships with other people, they are deluding themselves. In other words, the

relationship with God that they are having is artificial. It is not really God; it is a figure in


their head because they can’t relate to their fellow man. How could they relate to God?

Would you agree with that?

Chris: It is a little bit tough to go after people like that without sounding like you are being

condemning. But I do think we are deluding ourselves if we think we have a close

relationship with the Lord but we are not loving His image bearers.

Matt: If we can’t hear a hard word from a fellow man, we are probably not going to hear a hard

word from God.

Here is what we are going to do today. Chris and I have met several times. Chris said

there are at least eight pillars to understanding how to have deep relationships, when you

think these things through, with our fellow man and with God. There are eight essentials to

do that and we could not do that today. We would not have time. But we were able to get

four that were absolutely elemental and a place from which to build. To understand these

four, we have notes provided. We would like to explain each one of those four measures of

maturity and then describe what they are and then look at the Bible passages that say they

are relationally centered passages in the Book. These are words from God on how to relate

to one another and how to relate to God. So let’s look at those passages in that context.

Then Chris has brought a number of clips from an award winning film called “The

King’s Speech” to help illustrate what that looks like in a contemporary relationship. It is a

fabulous movie. If nothing else, it is about the evolution of a deep relationship and how to

think that through in the four areas we are going to look at, but in general. Then we will

ask each of you to look at your sermon notes to ask yourself – How am I scoring on this?

How do I do in one of these four areas?

What I would really like is for everyone here to be able to walk out of the auditorium and

say – Okay, of the four areas, and I am looking at the scores, this is what I need to work on

for the next six months or so. This measure of depth, this is what I want to spend time on.

This is what I am going to pray for and ask other people to bring into my life.

With that in mind, the first one we are going to look at together is bonding.

Four Markers of a Psychologically Healthy Christian

I. Bonding – the willingness to meet the relational needs of others.

What does that mean, Chris?


Chris: Well, we want to communicate that God, when He makes people, He makes them needy.

God does not make people self-sufficient. So in a relational context, we are trying to drive

home the idea that bonding between people, intimacy, closeness, connection, whatever

synonym you use, is tied to knowing what the relational needs of a person are and being

selfless enough to meet those in that person. So, if everybody is doing that, then we are

going to end up with a healthy bond between us, whether husband and wife, or parent and

child, or friend to friend.

Matt: And up on the screen are needs that are God designed, that we are here on this planet to

help each other meet these needs.

Chris: Yes, these are a list of what I think our relational intimacy needs are:

Attention Acceptance

Appreciation Affirmation

Affection Comfort

Encouragement Respect

Security Support

Understanding

Appreciation would be an example. We all have a need for appreciation to be expressed

to us about things we do. With it being Mother’s Day, I would just say along those lines to

all of you moms, gratitude for all the sacrificial loving and giving that you have done with

your children. So appreciation is a valid relational need.

Encouragement which means to urge someone forward is a relationship need that we all

bring into our relationships.

Support is more acts of service, a need for people’s help.

But again, we are just trying to drive home the idea that bonding has to occur in the

context of meeting these needs in one another.

Matt: Seeing them and giving them. There is Jesus’ quote there:

Matthew 20:26-27 “Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be

your servant and whoever wants to be first must be your slave -- just as the Son of

Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for

many.”

He came as an example of bonding in serving other people. I think Jesus does a wonderful

job of modeling – and of course He would be the perfect model as He is the second Adam.


Bbut one of the ways He models it, because this is a two-way street, is that a lot of people

are givers but they won’t receive. I think it is interesting that when Jesus was desperate and

very needy, He asked His followers, His disciples, to pray with Him. – I am going to need

some prayer. I need you guys to help pray. – It didn’t work out so good for Him as His

disciples were sleepy but I like the fact that Jesus was looking for His disciples to help in

those relational needs as well.

Chris: I think it is staggering. You have God in human form and here He is serving us. You

just can’t wrap your mind around God serving His own creation. But then His putting His

needs in play, the vulnerability of that, the humanness of that.

Matt: He opens himself up. Some took advantage of it. Some did not. John was the one who

beloved Him.

We have a clip from “The King’s Speech” [2010 movie]. It is about bonding. It is

probably the first part of it and it is a little bit clunky, isn’t it.

Chris: Yeah, the movie for those of you who have not seen it, it is about Prince Albert [played

by Colin Firth] back around World War II time period, having a speech impediment. He

was a stammerer. He seeks out various kinds of help and ends up in the office of a speech

therapist, Lionel Logue [played by Geoffrey Rush]. This is the opening session between

the two of them where Geoffrey Rush as the speech therapist is trying to create a bond with

him. He is trying to get connected up with him so that he can do what he as a therapist

does. That is what this scene is about.

Matt: Well, the foundation of his counseling model is to befriend his client so that he can

encourage him. So this is his initial attempt at doing that with a prince.

* * *

[Scene is the therapist’s simple office, abutting his residence, with sparse and aged furnishings, tidy but

meager.]

Logue: Well, I believe, when speaking with a Prince, one waits for the Prince to choose the topic.

Prince Albert: [long pauses before and during sentences] Waiting for me to commence a conversation, one can

wait rather a long wait.

Logue: Ah, yes. Do you know any jokes?

Prince Albert: Timing isn’t my strong suit.

Logue: Cup of tea?

Prince Albert: No, thank you.


Logue: I think I’ll have one. [walks to fireplace, humming]

Prince Albert: Aren’t you going to start treating me, Dr. Logue?

Logue: Only if you are interested in being treated. Please, call me Lionel.

Prince Albert: I prefer doctor.

Logue: I prefer Lionel. What will I call you?

Prince Albert: Your Royal Highness and Sir after that.

Logue: That is a little bit formal for here. I prefer names.

Prince Albert: Prince Albert Frederick Arthur George.

Logue: How about Bertie?

Prince Albert: Only my family uses that.

Logue: Perfect. In here it is better if we are equals.

Prince Albert: If we were equals, I wouldn’t be here.[lighting up a cigarette]

Logue: Well, please don’t do that.

Prince Albert: I’m sorry.

Logue: I believe sucking smoke into your lungs will kill you.

Prince Albert: My physicians said it relaxes the throat.

Logue: They are idiots.

Prince Albert: They have all been knighted.

Logue: It makes it official then. My castle, my rules. Thank you.

* * *

Matt: So, in the initial introduction of a friendship, we can see that maybe because of the king’s

background, it is keeping him from being able to engage in any kind of relationship.

Chris: You know from watching the movie, he did not have a relationship with his father that was

very good, or with his older brother who became king. Here again Geoffrey Rush is trying

to get a relationship going with him from which he can be therapeutic, that he can help this

guy overcome his problems.

Matt: On scoring yourselves, the scale is from 1 on the left – are you a taker in relationships – or

are you a giver? Are you one that initiates things or are you one that just receives and that

is all?


Score yourself and think about that.

II. Beliefs – We have this icon up for beliefs [Britta pitcher with a filter] because that is a filter

for water. The most important thing you intake is water and the purer the water, the better it is for your

body. And so it is with your mind. You need to filter what goes into your mind.

The definition of beliefs is committed to believing and living out truth. It is the ability to filter

what is a lie and what is truthful and then believing it and then living it out.

If only someone had written a book, “The Lies That We Believe”, then we could pinpoint those

very lies that we live with. That is a great book.

So how does that play itself out in the context of being able to have relationships?

Chris: Well, you cannot have a healthy bond with anyone if you are filter situations through

faulty thinking. So, the idea is and the reason why the Bible camps out so much on the

renewal of your mind is – what you tell yourself, what you believe, your attitudes, your

expectations, those mental tapes that play in your head – make or break whether or not you

can successfully bond with somebody else. So, that is why another key to spiritual maturity

and psychological health is – Are you thinking truth? Are you really believing truth? Are

you filtering what happens between you and another human being through the right tapes

or the wrong tapes?

Matt: Right, there is a great Bible verse that lists those things that are true. Why don’t you

read that for us?


Philippians 4:8 “Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is

right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable – if anything is

excellent or praiseworthy – think about such things.”

Matt: A lot of times when people come to me and they have been hurt by someone else, the

words they have spoken, whether a friend or a lover or a parent, usually the first question I

ask is – “Is it true? Did what they say to you, is that true? If it is not true and we have run it

through the filter, then you need not contemplate it. If it is true, has truth to it, then let’s

talk and negotiate on what to do about that. But if we don’t have filters up, just because

someone knows you or is close to you, it does not mean that you have to listen to

everything they say. You have to have some sort of grid to run it through.

Chris: Absolutely. All of us, I don’t care what name or title you have before your name, or if you

are a senior pastor or anybody, you have tapes running the show that are not doing you

right, they are not going to help you relate healthfully to other people. We all have the need

for renewal of our minds, taking thoughts captive, whatever is true, think on these things.

Matt: In the clip we are about to see, the Prince is confronted with truth, by now a growing

friendship.

Chris: By this clip, they have worked with each other for a while. The relationship is beginning to

form but it is still pretty fragile. You will see from the clip that the relationship is not solid

yet. And Geoffrey Rush as the therapist is trying to bring some truth to bear on Colin Firth

as the prince. Boy, it goes south on him pretty quickly.

* * *

Logue: What is the matter? Why are you so upset?

Prince Albert: Logue, you have no idea. My brother is infatuated with a woman who has been married

twice. She is asking for a divorce and he is determined to marry her. Mrs. Wallace Simpson

of Baltimore.

Logue: That is not right. Queen Wallace of Baltimore. Unthinkable. Can he do it?

Prince Albert: Absolutely not. He is going to anyway. All hell is breaking loose.

Logue: Can’t they just carry on privately?

Prince Albert: If only they would.

Logue: Where does this leave you?

Prince Albert: I know my place. I would do anything in my power to keep my brother on the throne.


Logue: Is it that serious? Your place may well be on the throne.

Prince Albert: I am not an alternative to my brother.

Logue: You can outshine David.

Prince Albert: [shouting] Don’t take liberties! That is bordering on treason.

Logue: I am just saying you could be king. You could do it.

Prince Albert: That is treason.

Logue: I am trying to get you to realize you needn’t be governed by fear.

Prince Albert: I have had enough of this.

Logue: What are you so afraid of?

Prince Albert: Your poisonous words.

Logue: Why did you come to me? You are not some middle class banker who wants elocution

lessons so you can chit chat …

Prince Albert: Do not instruct me on my duties. I am the son of a king, the brother of a king. You are the

disappointing son of a brewer, a jumped up jacker from the outback. You are nobody.

These sessions are over. [walks away quickly, lighting up a cigarette]

* * *

Matt: All right. Just the choreography of that scene, you see that he is confronted with truth that

he could be who God made him to be and that is king. What happens often happens in a lot

of relationships where you attack the man; you attack the messenger of that truth instead of

having to live with it. Then, again the scene setting is beautiful in that he finds himself

distancing himself from his friendship and then returns to smoking, another truth that this

man gave him – that the prince did not want to hear. So, it is hanging on the edge here,

isn’t it.

Chris: Well, if we are in the process of change, then truth has to be part of that. Sometimes our

reaction to truth is that reaction, right? Sometimes if you are not in the place to hear it, you

are going to get angry, you are going to get defensive, and you are going to counterattack

the person trying to speak truth to you. So, it is a pretty tenuous thing to counsel and to try

to play that role of the messenger of what you hope is God’s truth to that person.

Sometimes you get your head handed to you by a client.

Matt: How do you score yourself on that? Do you believe and practice lies or believe and

practice truth? Can you give truth? Can you receive truth, the practicing of truth?


Matt

Matt: So we have had Bonding and we have had Beliefs.

III. Brokenness: Our next one is on Brokenness. There is a beautiful picture of one of the many paintings

of the Prodigal Son. This is the return of the younger son to his father.

We define Brokenness as being humbled by practicing godly sorrow and forgiveness.

Notice there are two parts. There is godly sorrow and forgiveness.

Godly sorrow is defined, kind of a strange phrase but it is found in the Bible and that is

why we are using it.

II Corinthians 7:10 “Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and

leaves not regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.”

Let me explain why Paul is using those two phrases in contrast to one another. The first

one over here, godly sorrow, that is the thing that causes grace to transform. That is

another one of our pillars of belief here at Grace Covenant Church. But you have to have

godly sorrow first. That means you don’t regret the cost of your decision; you regret the

decision. When you have godly sorrow, what weighs heavily on your heart is that you have

injured a fellow man and you have also injured the holiness of God. That hurts you and

you are happy to pay whatever it takes to restore that.

Worldly sorrow is when you regret getting caught, when you are heavy about the

consequences of your choices. – I don’t want to be embarrassed that people will find out


about this. I don’t want to have to go to jail or pay the fine or do whatever. And you are

throwing tantrums about the cost to you.

Godly sorrow over here – and this is how you know which one is which – is usually

looking forward to paying in order to make things right because that is the easy part. I want

to restore my relationship with God; I want to restore my relationship with you. I want to

pay back what it takes. – That is godly sorrow and it leads to life because that is what is

required for grace to transform. This person over here will say things like – Well, gosh, I

said I was sorry. – Like that is all I have to pay to this.

The other part of this is forgiveness, the ability to give forgiveness. There is the passage

from

Colossians 3:13 “Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may

have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.”

So, you need to be forgiven but you also need to give forgiveness.

We have seen this a lot in the life of Jesus Christ but certainly the reason we have the

Prodigal Son there is because that is the story. We shared a lot about the Prodigal Son

being a major theme in this brokenness.

Chris: Well, I think in using the word brokenness, we are really trying to say another

marker of spiritual maturity and psychological health is humility. Humble enough that

when you have hurt somebody, you have genuine sorrow. So that would be a marker that

you are a fairly healthy person, that you can have genuine sorrow when you have messed

up. And humble enough that you can offer forgiveness to people who have hurt you. The

other side of that coin is – if you let your ego get in the way, you are not going to have

godly sorrow about what you have done and you are going to be unforgiving toward

people who have wounded you. So, another key aspect of self-examination is – Am I

humble enough to have both – a genuine sorrow when I mess up, a genuine forgiveness, of

wiping the slate clean when someone messes up against me.

Matt: The younger son, when he comes to his senses, does not return to his father expecting to be

a son again. He just wants to be an employee. He does not have any expectations that are

outside of what should be. The father is so humbled, representing God himself, that he

receives that son and restores him by paying what it costs. He gives that forgiveness.

So, what is happening in “The King’s Speech” where forgiveness is given and

received?


Chris: Well, after they have had that horrific collision with each other in the park, this scene is

where Colin Firth comes back to see Geoffrey Rush and he is now King. He apologizes

and Geoffrey Rush apologies to him. So they repair via genuine sorrow in the seeking of

forgiveness, they repair their relationship with each other.

* * *

[King George VI (Prince Albert) and his wife go back to the office of Dr. Lionel Logue to make amends.]

King George: Waiting for a king to apologize, one can wait a rather long wait.

Queen Elizabeth: I am afraid we are slightly late.

Logue: This is home. Myrtle’s at bridge. I made sure the boys are out.

Queen: It is lovely. Absolutely lovely. Oh, may I sit down?

Logue: Yes, of course. Would you like some tea, ma’am?

Queen: Yes, I will help myself. Off you go or else I’ll knock your heads together.

King George: Here is your shilling. … I understand what you were trying to say.

Logue: I went about it the wrong way. I am sorry.

King George: So, here I am. Is the nation ready for two minutes of radio silence?

Logue: Every stammerer always fears going back to square one. I don’t let that happen.

King George: If I failed in my duty, David could come back. I have seen the placards. “God Save Our

King.” They don’t mean me. Every monarch in history has succeeded someone who is

dead or just about to be. My predecessor is not only alive but very much so and even gives

them a Christmas speech.

Logue: Like your dad used to do.

King George: Precisely.

Logue: But he is not here any more.

King George: Yes he is. He is on that shilling I gave you.

Logue: Easy enough to give away. You don’t have to carry him around in your pocket or your

brother. You don’t need to be afraid of the things you were afraid of when you were five.

You are very much your own man, Bertie. Your face is next, mate.

* * *

Matt: If you have a deep relationship, I want you to see that scene is part of a deep relationship.

You can’t have deep friendships without having confessions and forgiveness. If you can

get along for years without something like that happening, it is not a friendship but an

acquaintance, which makes for fun building projects or maybe some sports or social


engagements. But it is not a deep friendship. You have to be able to humble yourself with

godly sorrow and present your apology and you have to be able to receive an apology and

give that.

Chris: It is not negotiable. There are ways God has wired relationships that you cannot violate

and if you cannot get to a genuine apology, your relationship is over.

Matt: What is great in this story, like all the other stories, is their friendship becomes far deeper

as a result of the injury and scar and now they have grown deeper because they are able to

do this.

So, how do you score yourself on proud, unforgiving, unrepentant or humble, repentant

and forgiving?

Can you think of a story in your own mind with your mate or with a friend where you


IV. Boldness – If you can’t base jump, you can’t have relationships. Here is what boldness means.

It is the willingness to face problems head on. You are going to have problems. You are going to have

problems with your relationships and you have to be able to stand those down.

A great proverb that puts it succinctly is:

Chris: Proverbs 28:1 “The wicked man flees though no one pursues but the righteous are

as bold as a lion.”

Matt: If nothing, Jesus is an example of this. He was courageous in who He associated with. He

associated with people who were socially cancerous: tax collectors, prostitutes, those sorts

of people who were moral outcasts but not to Him. Then the people He was able to stand

up to were the religious self-righteous. Not all of them; there were humble men and

women there too. He stared Pilate in the face. He was able to face the Cross. In the battle

of the Garden of Gethsemane, He won that because He was courageous to do the will of

the Father. That is what we have to have to be able to have great relationships.

Chris: We have to be willing to go up to Goliath. We have to stare down problems. If you run

from problems, they get worse. It is another spiritual law you cannot violate. So if you run

from problems in your relationship, the relationship has to become worse. Courage,

boldness, whatever you want to call it, it has got to be in play for things to go well.

Matt: And this story “The King’s Speech” is a story of a friend encouraging, making his friend

be courageous.

What is the next clip about?

Chris: In this clip, the Prince has now become the King. He has found out that the therapist Lionel

Logue is not a doctor, is not credentialed. Not that Lionel ever told him he was. So they

have this collision over that and the King is now about to basically fire Lionel Logue as his

therapist but they have this classically wonderful scene about the King finding his own

boldness, finding his own courage.

Matt: But the King is attacking him because he is thinking the credentials are what are pushing

him out. If the credentials don’t exist, then he doesn’t have to be out there on that limb

after all. There is a lot going on here.


* * *

Logue: Lock me in the Tower.

King George: I would if I could.

Logue: On what charge?

King George: Fraud! With war looming, you have saddled this nation with a voiceless king. You have

destroyed the happiness of my family all for the sake of ensnaring a star patient you

couldn’t possibly hope to assist. It will be like Mad King George III, only it will be Mad

King George the Stammerer who let his people down so badly in their hour of need …

[The king turns and sees Logue sitting on the throne.]

King: What are you doing?! Get up. You can’t sit there. Get up!

Logue: Why not? It is a chair.

King: No, that is not a chair. That is St. Edward’s chair.

Logue: They even carved their names on it.

King: That chair is the seat on which every king has sat.

Logue: It is held in place by a large rock.

King: That is the Stone of Scone. You are trivializing everything. Listen to me!!

Logue: Listen to you? By what right?

King: By divine right if you must. I am your king.

Logue: No you are not. You told me so yourself. You said you didn’t want it. Why should I waste

my time listening …

King: Because I have a right! I have a voice!!

Logue: Yes you do……You have such perseverance, Bertie. You are the bravest man I know.

* * *

Matt: You know, what good friends can do is they can see what God meant you to be while you

are blinded to that. They can encourage you to be that.

Chris: To help you be who God meant you to be, even if it means that you go after each other to

some degree like that.

Matt: If you look at the icon up there, you see that the first guy was actually pushed off by the

second guy. He didn’t go up to base jump but he was going up for the view. [slide of two

base jumpers next to a building].

So, how do you score yourself on this one? Do you run from problems or do you face

them? Have you learned to negotiate a relationship?


One of the beautiful parts of this movie and one of the things we want to make sure you

understand here especially at Grace is that we appreciate that people are quite clumsy at

relationships, because of their background, especially in the contemporary culture we were

raised in, we don’t know how to have good relationships. So you have to struggle through.

You have to be patient. But you have to be courageous. How do you score on that?

Matt: Well, I want to know how the story ends. Help us understand where this thing eventually

goes and the power of deep intimacy.

Chris: Well, because they actually went through the four non-negotiables: bonded with each

other, worked on the faulty beliefs that were plaguing the king, both humbled themselves

enough to stay in the relationship with each other, and boldly went after facing the problem

and getting through it. They end up at the end of the movie with him about to give this

speech to England during World War II coming on line. So we have got the clip before he

actually gives the speech, where they have another moment that I think is real tender with

each other. Then they have a very tender moment after the speech has been given where

they talk to each other.

* * *

Aide: Forty seconds, Sir.


King: Logue, however this turns out, I don’t know how to thank you for what you have done.

Logue: Knighthood.

Aide: Twenty seconds.

Logue: Forget everything else and just say it to me. Say it to me as a friend.

---- After the speech.

Logue: Your first war time speech. Congratulations.

King: I expect I shall have to do a great deal more. Thank you, Logue. Well done, my friend.

Logue: Thank you, your majesty.

* * *

Matt: In the fullness of time, our freedom is rather fragile. It hinges at least in this story on a

king’s speech and that speech is hinging on the depth of friendship. When we think it

through and talk about relationships, we have to think about these four things and knowing

these four things and maybe an additional four can only go so far with us.

I bet you have probably said this in your practice but Jesus said one of the most

profound things when it comes to counseling, when he was speaking with someone at the

Pool of Bethesda, a pool that was known to heal people. The cripple had been there quite

some time, maybe most of his life or maybe his whole life, and he was giving excuses on

why he was still there. Jesus asks him this question.

Do you want to get better?

Now, that is either the dumbest question any human has ever asked or it is the most

insightful question. Have you ever asked a client, do you want to get better?

Chris: I have asked that question a few times and it is the most insightful question you can pose.

There are a lot of times for all of us where we want the nice outcome but we are not truly

willing to do the work that it takes to get us there. So, pushing somebody in a non-shaming

way – Do you really want this? Are you willing to do what it takes to have healthy

relationships vertically, horizontally, overcome problems you may have? We all stare that

eyeball-to-eyeball sometimes about truly wanting to get better or not.

Matt: Well, at Grace Covenant Church, what we want you to do is if you look at these four

things and say – Gosh, I want to get better at these things. We can’t end a sermon by taking

a pill like Bill Murray – Ow, ow, ow, I am all better now. – It takes time.


This church is structured around being transformed by God’s grace: committed to

service and committed through relationships. What we mean by that is we have so many

opportunities for you to be mentored by people in many of our Adult Communities, our

Sunday School classes or mid-week Bible studies which some are called Life Groups, in

MOPS [Mothers of Preschoolers], in Celebrate Recovery, in the Stephen Ministry. It is all

out there but you have to do something. You have to want to get better and be willing to do

that. You have to take the next step. It is one of the reasons that Chris comes to Grace. He

serves in one of our Adult Communities because he likes to see people’s lives changed

because that is what we do here. So would you consider that? If you don’t mark any of the

things on your bulletin today, would you consider jumping in a little deeper here at this

church or another church that is committed to relationships that way as well?

Chris, thank you, my friend. Thanks for helping us today.

Chris: My pleasure.

Let me close our time in prayer. We have a wonderful song to sing and an offertory.

Dear heavenly Father,

We lift up our church to You, that we could be a healing church, that we could be a church where

people’s understanding of having a relationship with their fellow man is just like having a relationship

with You. We can’t say we have a great one with You if we can’t have a great one with others. So, God,

would You cause us to desire more in relationships and be willing to pay the hard price to have that:

conflict and resolution and more conflict and more resolution, understanding, giving and not just taking.

Help us be well, Lord, and help us choose to be well. We pray this in Jesus’ name. Amen

think it through.3.thurman · 08/05/2011 · dr. matt cassidy interviewing dr. chris thurman good...

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