Sunni-Shia Debate On The Ahadith About Clinging To The Book Of Allah And The Sunnah

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Facebook debate between AbuJaiyana (Muslim) and Abe Dalagan (Shia)

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<p>http://www.facebook.com/groups/182400251905745/</p> <p>PINNED POSTS</p> <p>Dhulqarnin Bin AbdulJalil Limpao EXCLUSIVE DEBATE Abu Jaiyana (Sunni) VS Abe Dalagan (Shia) The topic : THE AHADITH ON "KITABULLAH WA SUNNATI" ARE AUTHENTIC. Affirmative: Abu Jaiyana Negative: Abe Dalagan PART I Introduction of debaters and Presentations of Arguments 1 Presentation of Arguments by Abujaiyana 2. Presentation of Arguments by Abe Dalagan PART II - Cross-Examination 3. Abujaiyana to ask question to Abe Dalagan (5) questions maximum 4. Response by Abe Dalagan 5. Abe Dalagan to ask question to Abujaiyana (5) questions maximum 6. Response by Abujaiyana PART III - Rebuttals 7. Rebuttal by Abujaiyana 8. Rebuttal by Abe Dalagan PART 4 - Conclusions 9. Conclusion by Abe Dalagan 10. Conclusion by Abujaiyana DEBATE RULES: ============================= 1. Presentation of arguments should not exceed 2000 word count (This can be checked by Microsoft office word count). In case Facebook refuses to accept a 2000 word count post at the same time, the debater/poster is allowed to divide his response in two or three posts right after the other but should not exceed the word count limit. Once posted, no editing is allowed. 2. Cross-exam questions should be limited to 5 questions maximum and all questions should not exceed 500 words. All 5 questions are to be posted at the same time by the questioner. 3. Responses to all questions should not exceed 2000 words 4. Rebuttals should not exceed 2000 words 5. Conclusions should not exceed 1500 words 6. No edition of posts is allowed. Violation to this would render the violator lost by default or by technicality. 7. Both Debaters is given 24 hours to reply. Failure to do so the Moderator/Admin will automatically declare him lost by default.</p> <p>8. Links posted as reference/evidence is included in the word count allotted for each debater. Scriptural quotations should be indicated, book, chapter, and verse/s. 9. No ad hominem (personal attacks) shall be allowed or posting of porno photos or anything indecent, or disrespectful to any faith or religion. 10. Since there is no Debate Moderator both debaters are expected to follow the format's sequence, and the rules correctly and in good faith. 11. All Observers are requested not to post any comment until both debaters have posted their respective conclusions. Please cooperate with us for our own good and for the sake of Gods guidance. 12. Any violation to the above format and rules will render the violator lost by default. The rules shall take effect as soon as Abujaiyana has posted his opening arguments. Thank you.Like Unfollow Post 420 Thursday at 11:58am</p> <p>o o</p> <p>Seen by 39 J.m. Singh and 3 others like this.</p> <p>oDhulqarnin Bin AbdulJalil Limpao Members and Visitors, please be reminded that this thread is an exclusive thread for Abe Dalaganand Abujaiyana upon both debater request to go into a one-on-one debate. It is therefore requested that others who may want to comment or join in the discussion you may post in the Peanut Gallery, where it would be a "free for all" discussion. Thank you. Thursday at 12:06pm Like 1</p> <p>oAbu Jaiyana I begin by mentioning the name of Allah, The Beneficent, The Merciful All praise due to Allah Alone, the sustainer, the cherisher of all the worlds. May peace and blessings of Allah be on our beloved Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. his family, and all of his companions, and all those who follow their Sunnah until the Last Day. I testify that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah alone. I further testify that Muhammad s.a.w is Allahs last prophet and messenger. Peace be unto those who follow the right guidance. I welcome Sir Abe Dalagan for challenging me to debate this topic. He, being a shia, has a big problem with the ahadith recor ded by several muhaddith having the Matn Kitabullah Wa Sunnati. It seems that the ahadith related to it are annoying to shia theology. These ahadith have been graded authentic by Muslim scholars, therefore, I dont need to prove this as authentic to anyone. Th ose who question the authenticity of the hadith have the burden of proof to prove the contrary. However, my opponent refused to put the burden of proof on him; he insisted that I have to present my case first even though I have no idea whatsoever about his possible objection to these ahadith. He is too technical in his position but for the sake of ent ertainment, I accepted his request that I should start first.</p> <p>There are many reports from the hadith collectors that this instruction of Prophet Muhammad pbuh is undoubtedly correct, and Muslims from the very beginning adhered and followed this command of the Prophet pbuh. Contemporary scholars, after laborious efforts in collecting all the evidences and reports related to these ahadith, confidently conclude that this statement or instruction from the Prophet pbuh is a hundred percent correct. The leading contemporary scholars, has graded this report as authentic. No reputable Muslim scholar on the face of the earth today</p> <p>objected to this fact. There are shia scholars however who, as usually expected, always object about reports related to the Quran and the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad. This is because they wanted to blind the people about their so-called love of the Ahlulbait and their obsessions about Imamah. Kitabullah wa Sunnati means the book of Allah and my tradition. This means the book of Allah which is the Noble Quran, and the Prophetic Traditions of Prophet Muhammad pbuh. Anything which the Prophet s.a.w said or did is considered to be a part of his Sunnah (i.e. way), which represents the practical application of Islam according to divine guidance. Term hadith in this discussion means whatever is transmitted from the Prophet of his actions, sayings, and tacit approvals. An Authentic Hadith is one which has a continuous isnaad, made up of trustworthy narrators narrating from trustworthy narrators, which is found to be free from any irregularities or defects. In case of dispute about the Isnad of one hadith, its isnad is to be collated to the sanad of other sahih ahadith reporting about the same subject matter in the Matn. If the sanad of the sahih ahadith corroborate the disputed hadith, the it is considered as sahih or authentic. Such hadith is graded as authentic due to external corroboration or sahih due to supporting narrations. A hadith has two parts: The Matn is the main body of the hadith . The Isnad is the chain of narrators on whom the Matn was transmitted. In this debate, we will ask ourselves this question: Did Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. really say to the Muslims to follow the Book of Allah, and his Sunnah? (Kitabullah wa Sunnati) Here is one of the examples of the ahadith which the shia people say not authentic: #18722 " " " Since I Muslims believed that this is an authentic report, and it has been graded as authentic, and I dont know yet what is the shia objection to it, I will present my argument first why I believe that they are authentic ahadith. Friday at 7:34am Like 1</p> <p>oAbu Jaiyana Proof from the Quran: With clear signs and Books (We sent the Messengers). And We have also sent down unto you (O Muhammad) the reminder and the advice (the Quran), that you may explain clearly to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought. [Surah Al Nahal, 16:44] "O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger, and make not vain your deeds!" (Sura Muhammad, ayah #33) "But those who disobey Allah and His Messenger and transgress His limits will be admitted to a Fire, to abide therein: And they shall have a humiliating punishment." (Sura An-Nisa ayah # 14) There are many ayat in the Quran emphasizing the obligation of the Muslims to obey Allah and the Prophet pbuh. This is because there are instructions in the Quran wherein their detail can only be found in the Prophets Sunnah such as the details of Salat, Z akat,Hajj, et cetera. Without the Sunnah, we would never understand Islam fully. So there is no doubt that the instruction of Prophet Muhammad to follow the Quran and his Sunnah (Sunnati) is 100% true because the Quran testifies to it. All ayat of the Quran is transmitted in a tawaatur manner. REJECTING THE MATN OF ANY HADITH RELATED TO KITABULLAH WA SUNNATI IS TANTAMOUNT OF REJECTING THE QURAN So only the STUBBORN DEVIANT PEOPLE reject the ahadith about Kitabullah Wa Sunnati. Allah warns this stubborn and deviant people in the Quran: "Anyone who does not believe in Allah and His Messenger, We have prepared a Searing Blaze for the rejectors." (48:13) I presumed that my opponent Abe Dalagan is not one of these stubborn and deviant people but he is a seeker of truth and guidance. He will accept the fact after this debate that Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. did really instruct the Muslims to cling to the Book of Allah, and his prophetic Sunnah. Is there any authentic hadith that corroborates the following of the Sunnah of the Prophet pbuh?</p> <p>In Sahih Al Bukhari Prophet Muhammad said Whoever dislikes/abandon my Sunnah is not of me [MAN RAGHIBA AN SUNNATI FA LAYSA MINNI] Narrated Hudhaifa: Allah's Apostle said to us, "Honesty descended from the Heavens and settled in the roots of the hearts of men (faithful belie vers), and then the Quran was revealed and the people read the Quran, (and learnt it from it) and also learnt it from the Sunnah." Both Quran and Sunnah strengthened their (the faithful believers') honesty. Volume 9, Book 92, Number 381: Some reports from the companions of Prophet Muhammad pbuh about following the Sunnah: Ibn Mas`ud (RAA) used to say, "Doing a little of the Sunnah is better than striving hard in innovation." Al-Hasan ibn Abil-Hasan (RH) said, "A little action following a Sunnah is better than a lot of action following an innovation." Ali (RAA) said, "I am not a Prophet nor have I received revelation, but I act according to the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad as much as I can." Reports from the early Muslim jurists: Imaam Ahmad bin Hanbal (RH) said: "Whoever rejects a statement of the Messenger of Allaah (SAW) is on the brink of destruction." Imaam ash-Shaafi (RH) reported a consensus among the scholars of the Sahaabah, the Taabi`oon and their followers that: "If a Sunnah of Allah's Messenger, sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam, becomes manifest to a person, he does not have any choice but to follow it, regardless of what other people say." [Quoted in Ar-Risaalah at-Tabookiyyah of Ibn ul Qayyim] So, as we can see here that we have very solid statements of reliable people from generation to generation to make us conclud e with certainty that the ahadith about kitabullah wa sunnati was really said by Prophet Muhammad pbuh. Moreover, and most importantly, there are numerous ayat in the Quran fully supporting and corroborating the ahadith to follow Allah i.e. the Quran, and also follow the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad pbuh. I believe that my statement is 100% correct that only the stubborn and deviant people would dare to question the ahadith related to kitabullah wa sunnati When Imam Malik, may Gods mercy be on him, recorded in his book Al Muwatta the hadith in which the Prophet pbuh is reported to have said during his last Hajj that he pbuh, instructed the Muslims to cling on the book of Allah and his Sunnah, people from different faith questions the authenticity of this hadith for nonsensical reasons. As if they havent read the Quran or they havent h eard of any other hadith corroborating to it, or they havent heard or read the statements of the companions of Prophet Muhammad pbuh. #1601 " " Imam Hakim has graded it sahih, Imam Dhahabi remained silent in talkhis so it shows his approval, and Shaikh Albani and Ibn Hazm (in al ahkam) also authenticated it. Also reported in Mustadrak al Hakim, Kinzul Ummal by Ali al Muttaqi al hindi, Mishkat al Masabih by Tibrizi, Jami al Saghir by Imam Suyuti, Sunan by Imam Darqutni, Sunan al Kubra by Imam Baihaqi (two different asnaad) al-aitqad by Abul Qasim, al Targheeb by Ibn Shaheen Shia apologists are trying to find technical problem in this hadith. They solicit opinions of some Muslim scholars to support their view that these ahadith is not authentic. I understand that some Muslim scholars in the past had different opinions about the technicality of this specific hadith when it comes to the acceptability of the chain of narrators (isnad). However, after gathering all evidences related to this dispute, contemporary Muslim scholars are now unanimous that this hadith is authentic especially when Shaykh Nasiruddin Al Albani and others graded this hadith as authentic after thorough investigation of the evidences. Moreover, this hadith is also corroborated by other sahih ahadith. The dispute with the isnad in this hadith is cleared out by the isnad by other authentic ahadith corroborating to it. Therefore, it is futile for anyone to painstakingly question the authenticity of Imam M aliks hadith because other ahadith which are authentic, authenticate this hadith. This is from the book of Al Kafi and Majlisi has graded it sahih: " " Emphasis [] So I leave the burden to my elderly shia opponent from Tawi-Tawi Mr. Abe Dalagan to prove to us that the ahadith about Kitabullah Wa Sunnati are not authentic. 1. He has to explain also his objection about the ahadith about Kitabullah Wa Sunnati when the Quran, and other authentic ahadith, the Companions of the Prophet, the early Muslim jurists, as well as the book Al Kafi unanimously agree to it.</p> <p>2. He has to refute the Matn as well as the different transmitters (Sanad) of the different ahadith corroborating each other. The ahadith in question are posted above. 3. He has to cite to us contemporary prominent hadith authority recognized by the majority of Muslim scholars falsifying Shaykh Nasiruddin Al Albanis and others in grading the hadith to be authentic (Sahih). I pray to God to guide the misguided members of this group who want to be guided, Ameen. Thank you very much. Friday at 7:35am Like 2</p> <p>Abe Dalagan Bismillahir rahmanir rahim Alhamdulillahil-ladzi khalaqana wasaqana wajaalana minal muslimin. Ashhadu alla ilaha illallah wahdahu la sharikalah Wa ashhadu anna Muhammadan abduhu wa rasuluh Allahumma salli ala Muhammad wa Ali Muhammad wa baad: Faqad qala taala fiy kitabihil aziz: Wama ata-kumur rasu-lu fakhudzhu wama naha-kum anhu fantah, wattaqulla-ha innalla-ha shadi-dul iqab. Wa qa-la rasu-lallah, sallalla-hu alayhi wa a-lihi wasallam:Ya ayyuhannas! Inniy ta-rikun fiykum ma in akhadztum bihi lan tadilluw, Kita-bullah wa Itrati Ahli Bayti. Sala-mun alaykum! The ahadith on Kitabullah wa Sunnati are not authentic. Or, in simple Arabic, Laysa Sahih. They are...</p>