transcript of “304 with gerald pollack” - bulletproof · bulletproof radio podcast #304, gerald...

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Transcript of “304 with Gerald Pollack”

Bulletproof Radio podcast #304

Bulletproof Radio Podcast #304, Gerald Pollack

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Female: BulletproofRadio,astationofhighperformance.

Dave: YouarelisteningtoBulletproofRadio,andIamDaveAsprey.Thanksfor

listening,youcanfindBulletproofRadiooniTunesbulletproofexec.com,podcast1,andeverywhereelsepodcastscanbefound,butyouprobablyalreadyknewthatbecauseyoufoundus.Today'scoolfactsofthedayisthatraincanbemorethanjustwater.RainonVenusoronotherplanetsormaybeevenmoonscanbemadeofsulphuricacid,orevenmethane.Andscientistfoundtheplanet5000lightyearsawaythathasrainmadeoutofiron,whichiswaycoolifyouaskme.Idon’tknoweverymanhastosayaboutthat,butit'sgottobecool.Today'sguestisaguyIhavewantedtointerviewforalongtimeeversinceI,Ireadhisbook.

AndheisadistinguishedprofessorofbioengineeringattheUniversityofWashingtonwhereheconductsresearchonwaterscienceatthePollacklaboratory.HeistheexecutivedirectorofTheInstituteforVentureScience,andthefoundingeditorinchiefoftheJournalofWater.HeisalsoafoundingfellowoftheAmericanInstituteofMedicalandBiologicalEngineering,andafellowoftheAmericanHeartAssociationandtheBiomedicalEngineeringAssociation.Inotherwordsheisacompletebio-hackingbadassalthoughIdon’tthinkanyonehasevercalledhimthat,andhisnameisDr.GeraldPollack.Gerrywelcometotheshow,it'sanhonortohaveyou.

Gerald: OhthanksDave,I'mreallyhappytobehereanduhthanksfortheintroduction.

Dave: You’re,you’resowelcome.Uhyourbookthat'sprobablymostfamousatleastinthecircleswhereIhangiscalledTheFourthPhaseofWater:BeyondSolid,LiquidandVapor,andit’sonamazon.com.Andthat’skindofwhatyouareknownforbecauseyou’resayingwhydoeswaterdotheweirdstuffitdoesthatnoonehaseverexplained,andyouhavethatnaturalsenseofcuriositycombinedwithsomeprettylegitimatescientificresearchbackground.Butyou’vealsolookedattheotherbookthat,thatchangedmyviewonuh,onhowtohackthehumanbodywhichwascalledCells,GelsandtheEnginesofLifefrom2001.


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ItjustplayedapivotalroleonmeprobablylikeIthinkIdohavecontrol

ofmyownbiology,andyou'vedonesomeotherworkonmusclesandmoleculesandallthis.And,andIwanttoknowhowdidyougetintothisstuff,likeyou'vedoingthisfor,forlongerthanIhavelikebyalongtime.What,whatbroughtonthislevelofcuriosityandinterestinsuchsmallthings?

Gerald: Whydoyouthinktheyaresmall?

Dave: (laughs)well,wecan'tseethemiswhyIthinktheyaresmall,Ithinktheyarefun…

Gerald: Ohyoumeanthemolecules;Ithoughtyoumeantuhthesubject.

Dave: No,nothesubjectsareactuallyfundamentaltoeverythingweare.Imeanhowourbodiesproduceenergy,uhhowweturnthatenergyintomotionIthoughtis,isfundamental.AndalmostallofwhatIdoisaroundtweakingthosethings.And,buthowdidyougetintothosethings,whenyoustartedthisresearchsolittlewasunderstoodaboutthisstuff.What,whatmadeyougothere?

Gerald: UmIwasstudyingmusclesandhowmusclescontract,andwhatstruckmeisreallyweirduhonedayuhisthatwhenwethinkofmusclesatthemolecularlevelweconsidertheproteinsandhowtheproteinsinteracttoproduceforce.Butyouknowmusclescontainnotonlyproteins,butalsowater,infacttwothirds,twothirdsofuhbyvolumeofourmusclesandallothercellstooareroughlytwothirdsofwater.Umit'sactually,it's,it’sevenmoredominantthanthatifyouconsiderthe,thefractionofmoleculesthatarewatermolecules.Youknowthewatermoleculeissosmallthatinordertofillthattwothirdsbyvolume,youneedtoputinuh,uhalotofwatermolecules.Andifyoudothemolecularcount,itturns,itturnsoutthatum99,morethan99outofevery100moleculesarewatermolecules.

Anditstruckmeasoddthatyoucoulddiscount99outofa100moleculeswhentryingtofigureouthowmuscleswork.Thereisa


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theoryuhthatprevailsnowaboutmusclecontractionandhowitworks,anditdatesbackabout60yearsormore.UhitwasdevelopedbyfamousNobellaureate,amemberoftheHuxley,famousHuxleyfamily,SirAndrewHuxley,andalmosteverybodyfollowsit.UhbutIfoundsomedifficultywith,withthattheorynamelythattheevidencedidn'tfit.

Dave: Oops.

Gerald: Andsoyeahoopsisright,oops.Uhpracticallyeveryexperimentthatwedidinthelaboratoryfailedtofitthetheory,and,andsowebeganthinkingalongotherlines.AndIbegantorealizethatcriticaltotheentiresubjectofcontractionwasthewater,that99outof100moleculesdidplaysomerole.

Sothenwestartedtofigureout,uhnotsomuchtheparticularroleofwater,but,butofwateritselfbecause,becausewaterasyousaidis,isacomplicatedsubject.Oritseemscomplicatedbecausetherearesomanyanomaliesuhthatuminotherwordspropertiesofwaterthatwecan'tpredictfromanytheory.AndsoIbegantoscratchmyhead,andIhadafewinterestingcontactswhouhIwouldn’tsayguidedmeuhalongtheway,butprovidedsomecluesthatwerereallyinstrumental.Andthenweturnedtowater,westoppeddealingwithmusclecontraction,andwebegantofigureoutthepropertiesofwater,andwefoundsomereallysurprises.And,andthosesurprisesare,arefoundin…EspeciallyinTheFourthPhaseofWaterbook,butalsosomein,intheCells,GelsandtheEnginesofLifebook.AndI'mflatteredthatyoureadthem.

Dave: Well,Cell,CellsandGelsisoneofthereasonsthatI,I’vebecameahugefanofcollagenprotein,becauseifyouwanttomakeagelyougottohavecollagen,andIpreparedcollagenproteinin,inmycoffee,andIthinkhavingproperlyphonecallsandit'sprobablyreallyimportant.Andofcourseyourbookmademepayattentiontothatandthat…Sothetakingtherightaminoacidstoformcollagenoreatingbonebrothisthewayswegetitproperly.EventhoughIprobablyhadnocollageninmydietforaverylongperiodoftime,soIdidn'tknowthatthatwouldbeimportant.


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So,sothanksforthatfirstpartthere,butthenewbookblewmeaway,because,letmejustaskyouafewquestions,IknowyouknowtheanswersbutjustbecauseIthinkourlistenersdon’t.Iswateractuallyliquid,what'syourtakenowthatyou'vestudiedit?

Gerald: Well,yesandno,uhsowaterisobviouslyaliquidbecauseyouhaveaglassofwateranditbehaveslikealiquid.Butthereisanotherphaseofwaterthatwediscovered,andthat'sreallyinbetweenaliquidandasolid.Somostofushavelearnedthatwaterhas3phases,weknowthereisthesolidphaseorice,thereistheliquidphase,theonethatweputintheglass,andthevaporphase.Umandumsothat'swhatwelearned,butwhatwefoundoutisthatyeahthereisafourthphasethat'sdistinctfromallofus.Andsoit'snot,it’snotaliquidandit'snotasolid,butsomewhereinbetweenthosetwo,andifyouhavealittlebitofitinyourglassofwaterwhichyouprobably,probablydo,youwon'treallydetectthedifference,butyouhavealotofitincertainexperimentalsetups.

Andyoucanactuallymeasureandfindoutthatthisishighlyviscous,it'skindoflikehoney.Uhit'sinbetweenhoneyisnotexactlyliquid,butnotexactlyasolid,andthisistheconsistencyofthisfourthphaseofwater.

Dave: Wow.

Gerald: Well,yeahuhithasuh,ithasalotofimplicationsbecauseyeahthereisalotofitaround.Andit'snotacompletesurprisebecauseuhtherewasaphysicalchemistmorethana100yearsago.UmtherewasHardy,andheprojectedthis,hewas,hewasacolloidchemist,andhesaidyouknowsomethingeven100yearsago,somethingdoesn'tmakesense,becausetherearepropertiesofwaterthatarebasicallynot,notunderstood.Andifyoutrytounderstandthemintermsofthe3commonphases,you’vefailed.Andheprojectedthatthereisaforthphaseofwater.Andanumberofpeopleactuallypickedthatupuhovertheyearsum,andthefourthphasewaskindofcalledstructuredwater.

Structuredyeahmeaning,meaningthemoleculeswerenotrandomlydisposed,buttheywereactuallylinedupinsomeway.Anduhthere


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wereactuallyquiteafewsuchpeople,themostprominentbeingGilbertLinn.

Dave: Yes,I’vejustbookedhim.

Gerald: YeahGilbertLinnisnow…YeahheisnowIthink97yearsold,andstillactive.UhandthentherewasalsoAlbertSaintGeorge,andSaintGeorgewas,youmightcallhimthe,thenobelistamongnobelistsbecausehewasuhrespectedandrevered.HegothisNobelPrizefordiscoveringvitaminC,andthenheworkedonmusclesandheworkedonwater.Andhe’sfamousfor,forafewquotesandoneofthemisthat,“Lifeiswaterdancingtothetuneofsolids.”

Soheknewthatthewaterwasintimatelyinvolvedineverythingthatthecelldoes.Andwhathappenedisthatuhpeopleumintheearlypartofthelastcenturyuptothemiddlepartweredeeplyinterestedinwater,theygot...Youmightsaydeeplyimmersedin,inthesubject.Andumandthentherewere2debaclesthatuhsetthescienceofwaterbackward.Therewere2incidentsthathappened,oneofthemiscalledthepolywaterincident,andtheotherwascalledwatermemoryincident,andumIcantellyouaboutthisbecauseuh,uh,they’re,theyarekindofinteresting.Uhwhatthe,thesummaryof,ofthestoryisthat,isthatthepeoplewhowerestudyingthese2phenomenawereroundlycriticizedbyuhbyscientists.And,andsoitbecamewater,thestudyofwaterbecameakindofscientificjoke,andpeoplethenbecamereluctanttopursueit.

So,sothefirstone,uhthesocalledpolywaterincidenttookplace.AnditbecamefromthelaboratoryofaguynamedBorisDerjaguin.DerjaguinwasaRussian.HewasthemostprominentphysicalchemistinallofRussia.Someonecametohislaband,andshowedhimsomethingthathe,thatgothimreallyexcited,andthenhepursuedit.Umwhathappenedwasthatifyouevaporatewater,sothewateris,ispureandthencondenseitagain,uhandcondenseitintosmallcapillarytubes,littleglasstubesorquartztubes,umthewatertookonverystrangecharacteristics.Uhthe,the,uh,itwasreallydifficulttofreezeit.Youcouldn'tboilituntilyoureachedveryhightemperatures.Itwasdenser


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thanordinarywater.

Andthepeoplewho,whothephysicalchemistswhomeasuredthespectroscopicpropertythatistheabsorptionproperty’sdifferentwavelengthsfounditwasreallystrange.Itdidn'tbehaveatallasthoughitwereregularwater.Andsothiswasthetimeofthecoldwar,and,and,andtheRussiansand,andthewestdidn'tcommunicateawholelot.SothepaperswerewritteninRussianlanguage.Whentheystartedtobetranslatedin,intoEnglish,theuhthepeople,thescientistsinthewestbecamereallyexcitedaboutthis.Andatfirsttheytookuptheresult,anduhthey,theyreallyhad2choices,youknowbecause,becauseoftheuhpoliticalbackground.Uhone,onechoicewasuhtodismissitasnonsense,becauseafterallyouknowtheRussiansareenemies,andhowcouldtheydoanythingmeaningfulinscience.

Theotheronewastrytopursueit,andfindsomethingthatuhusetheRussianfindingsasleveragetofindsomethingeven,evenmoreimportantorexciting.Itlookedasthoughtherewasadifferentphaseofwaterjustaswhat,whatwearetalkingabout.Umso,itwaspursuedreallyactivelyandtherewasa,a,aleadarticleintheJournalofSciencewhichisoneofthe,thecoupleofreallymajorjournals,andthetitlewasPolywater,whyPolywater?Becausethewaterbehavedlikeapolymer.Insteadofacollectionofindividualmoleculeswhobehavedasthoughthemoleculesweresomehowlinkedtooneanother.Andbecauseofthislinkage,thebehaviorchangedmarkedly.

Umsouhone,onegroup,IbelieveitwasanAmericangroupjustacoupleofmonthslater,foundout,ordidsomeexperiments,andtheyfoundoutthatitreallywasn’tpurewaterafterall.Theyfoundthatifyouputwaterinthesecapillarytubes,umitactually,thematerial,thesilicafromthecapillarytubesactuallydissolvesinwater,notmuchofit,atraceofit,butstilltheRussianshadarguedthatthiswaspurewater,anduhthisgroupfoundthatitwasnotpureatall.Actuallyitwascontaminatedbysilica.Andsotheysaiditwasasilicagel,andthereforenobigdealabouttheseinterestingproperties.

Andthenwhatmade,mademattersworseisthattherewasanother


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group.IbelievethiswasanAustraliangroup,andtheyputsaltinthewater.And,andwhentheyputthesaltinthewaterandmeasuredtheabsorptionspectra,thesameas,astheRussianshaddone,theygotpracticallyidenticalresults.Andsotheysaid,“Well,youknowtheRussiansmusthavebeensweatingintotheirwaterwhentheydidtheirexperiments.”Anditwasreallyembarrassingforuhforthesoviets.AndacoupleofyearslaterDerjaguinhimselfuhdrovethenailsintohisowncoffinifyouwillbypublishingapapersayingthatallofhiscriticswereright.Theyscrewedup,theymadeamistake,forgetpolywater,forgeteverythingthatwefound.

Sothatseemedtobetheendofthestory.And,andtheendofthestoryisthatwell,if,ifthegreatestscientistofphysicalchemistryinallofRussiacouldscrewupsobadly,thenuhnearmortalscientistshadbetterstayawayfromwater,becausetheyaregoingtoscrewupevenworsethanthat.Therewasthat,thatpotential.Umanditseemedlikethat’stheendofthestory,butit'snottheendofthestory.I'vehadnowfrom3differentpeoplewhowereclosetoDerjaguinthatdespitethefactthathewrotethatpaper,hewasactuallyforcedtowritethatpaper,becauseuhyouknow,it'sanembarrassmenttothesovietuhgovernment,andit's,it’seasiertoplacetheonusonthatparticularscientistthanuhsovietscience.

Sohebasicallytookfullresponsibility,andIsupposehisalternativewaswhoknowswhat...

Dave: Yeah,right.

Gerald: MaybeSiberiaorsomethinglikethis.Sotheyprofessedthatuntilthedayhedied,hewasabsolutelysurethathewasright.

Dave: Wow.

Gerald: Butyeahit’s,it'saninterestingstory.Itcouldmakeagoodmovie.

Dave: WehaveabetterwayintheUS.We,wesimplymakeitimpossiblefor,forresearcherstoworkiftheysaysomethingthat’snotpopular,soit’s


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not...

Gerald: OhIknow,Iknowwellaboutthatphenomenon.Itwasnotthatdifferent,butuhIthinktheconsequencesaremaybemoredire,wellmoredireforhim.

Dave: ForGulock’schangeofcareer.Yeah,yougottopointthat.

Gerald: MaybeGulock,I,I'mnotsure.But,butcertainlyhewouldnot,nothavebeenthefamousscientistthatheandrespectedthatheremainstoday.ButyouknowuhasIsaid,meremortalscientistswereencouragedtostayawayfromthesubjectofwater.Uhsothenyouknowuhwaterbegan;thescienceofwaterbeganitsrecovery.Umandthentheseconddebacletookplace.ThisonewasinFranceandtheFrenchareequallyproudoftheir,theirscience.Theyhaveuhbiologicalscientists,mathematiciansandmany,manydistinguishedFrenchscientists.

Thenalongcamethisguy,JacquesquesBenvenistewhoisafamousimmunologist,areallyhighlevelguywithalabof50,50people.Hewasdoingsomeuhexperimentson,oncells,uhwhitebloodcellscalledbasophils.Andhewould,hewouldpoursomeandperhapsyouknowthestory,hewouldpoursomeantibodiesonthecells,andwhen,whenthecellsreceivedtheantibodiestheygotactivatedandtheysecretedsomething,Ibelieveitwashistamine.Andtheywere,theywerestudyingthisaspartoftheirimmunologicalresearch.

Andsomeguycamealong,hesaid,“YouknowIcandilutethoseantibodiesagainandagainandagainandagainjustasthehomeopathsdo,andIcouldreallysomanytimesthatessentiallythere,therearenomoleculesofan,noantibodiesleft,justwater.Uhessentiallywaterthathadbeenincontactwiththeantibodies,andIcanpourthatonthecellsandgetthesameresponse.”Hesaid“Impossible.”Butyouknowbeinganintellectual,andopenmindedguy,hesaid,“Okay,youknowuhthere's,there’sacornerofthelaboratorythereandnobodyisworking.Youcanshowuswhatyouaredoingandyouknowwe’llseewhat,whatgoeson.”


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Dave: ThereasonI'mlaughing,sorrytointerruptyouthere,isthat,thatIthink80%ofpeopleouttherego,“That’simpossible,thereforeitcan’thappen,thereforewearenotgoingtotestit.”Andthey’vejustignoredapotentialofreallyrealthings.SoIloveit,okay.Andthisexperimentyouhadarealscientistwhosaid“Well,ifit'sreal,proveit,okay.”Thenwhathappenednext,Igottoknow.

Gerald: Well,whathappenednextisthatprettysooneverybodyinthelabwashoveringoverthisguytoseehisresults,becauseapparentlyitworked,andhecoulddothosedilutions.Hediditexactlythesameasthehomeopathsdo.Youdilutesay1to10,uhandthenyoushakeit,theycallitsuccussion.Andthentheydoitagainandtheyshakeitandsoon,downtheline.Andso,soheproduceditandJacqueswho,I,Iknewpersonally,hediedabout10yearsagoumwasofcoursesocuriousaboutthis,and,andfoundthatthisexperimentwassointeresting.Hehadnointerestwhatsoeverinhomeopathy,uhbuthewasreallyinterestedinwhatthesedilutionscoulddoand,andtheresponse.

Souhhedecidedtopublishapaperonthis.SohesendsthemanuscripttoNature,SirJohnMaddoxtheeditorofNaturereceivedit,andhesaid,“Noway.”Hesaid,“Ifyouareright,everybodyelseiswrong,andIrefusetobelievethateverybodyelseiswrong.Sorry,wewon’tpublishyourpaper.”SoJacquesbeingadetermineduh,uhscientist,and,andbelievinginhisresultsthoughhedidn'treallyunderstanduhthemechanism.AndwhenIchattedwithhimhesaid,“YouknowI'mjustanimmunologist,I'mnotaphysicistoraphysicalchemist,soIdon'tunderstandthemechanism.”And,andyouknowhewashonestenoughtosaythat,butasyousaidtherewassomethinggoingonthereandsomethingthatneededexplanation.

Sohethought,“Okay,naturerejectsit,I'mgoingtoaskmycolleaguesindifferentcountriestorepeatourexperimentsexactlyaswedid,andiftheygetthesameresultswe’llpublishtogether.”Theygotthesameresults,theysubmittedthemanuscripttoNature,theresponsewasthesame.Andbythewaythisis,the,thestoryiswritteninseveralbooks.Thebookswith,youmightsaydifferenttilts.Sometiltinfavorofthescientistdoingtheexperiments,and1or2infavorofNature,uhthe


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editorofNaturewhothey,theybelievedhadsome,somegoodpoints.

Andprettysoonwhathappenedisthatthehomeopathsuhrealizedthisfamousscientist,famousuh,uhscientistwasbasicallyabletofigureout,todemonstratethatwhattheydoclinicallyactuallyhassomekindofphysicalbasis.AndprettysoonNature’sheadquartersareacrossthechannelinLondon,uhheardaboutthis.Itwaspublishedinthenewspapersandsuchtheir,theirprotestsumhadtodosomething,hadtorespondinsomeway.AndJacqueswhenIwasvisitinghislabhesaid,“Ohyeah,andMaddoxhetelephonedmeonthattelephonerightthere,andhesaid,I’llmakeadealwithyou.”Sowhatwasthedeal?“Thedealwaswe’llpublishyourmanuscriptnextweek,nexteditionuhifyouallowuhagroupofpeerstocometoParisandwatchyoudotheexperiment,lookoveryourshoulders,andthenwewillreportbacktoourreadersinNature.”

SoJacquesthought,wellthismakestotalsense.Wecangetourpaperpublishedandwe’lldemonstratetothemthat,thatthisisreal.Sotheypublishedthepaperwithadisclaimersayingyouknowwearenotreallysureaboutthis,butinfairness,in“fairness”we’re,we’republishinguhthispaper.SothenextstepwasthatuhMaddoxgottogetherhiscommitteeofpeerstogoandvisit.Andthecommitteeconsistedof3people,1wasMaddoxwhowashimselfwho,whowastrainedasaphysicist.He,heneverquitemadeitthroughthisPhD.HebecameajournalistandworkedhiswayuptobeingtheeditorofNature,aratherdistinguishedposition.

Andfortheother2peers,uh1ofthemwastheamazingRandy,amagician,andperhaps,perhapsthoughtof,bymanyastheworld’sgreatestmagicianwithwonderfulcapabilityoffiguringoutthetricksofothermagicians.UhandthethirdonewasaguynamedWalterStewartfromNIHuhwho,whowasuhyoumightsaythefrauddepartment.It'scalledthe,thedivisionordepartmentofscientificintegrity.Uhand,andwhatthisdivisionis,doesistoinvestigateuhclaimsthatuhappeartobeumoutrageous.And,and,andtheygoandthey,theylookandheartheevidencefrombothsides,andtheycometoaconclusionastowhetherthescientistfindingsarerealorareactuallyfraudulent.


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Sothiswasthecommittee.Thiswasnotexactlyacommitteeofpeersas

abiologicalexperiment.Uhitwasuhyoumightsayacommandocommitteeuhdesignedtofigureoutwhatthetrickwas,becausetheyweresurethatitwasatrick,sotheycametoParis.Theycametothelaboratory,anduhandthefirstday,thetechnicianwhodoestheexperimentsregularlydidtheexperiments,andtheresultsturnedoutexactlyastheyhadpublished.Theseconddaythetechniciandidtheexperimentsagain,andeachofthetubesorthevileswascodedbythecommittee,onlytheyknewcoulddecodeit.Andwhentheydecodedtheyactuallyuhfoundthattheresultwasagainjustastheyhadpredicted.

Andthethirdday,umthedelusionsweredonebyWalterStewartthe,theNIHfellow,andtheresultsdidn'tturnoutthatway.AndIshouldsaythatintheirpapertheymentionedthattheresultdidn't,doesn'talwaysturnoutthewaythey,theysuggested,butstatisticallyanoverwhelmingthepercentageoftimesthattheygettheresultthattheyclaimedthattherewasnoquestion.Buttheydidn'tknowexactlywhysometimesit,itdidn'twork.Anyway,itdidn'tworkand,andsotheumthecommitteeofpeershuddledandtheydecidedthatwell,youknowwhentheFrenchdothedilutions,itworks,andwhentheyvisitingcommitteesdoesthedilutionsitdoesn'tworkandthereforeitmustbeafraud.Theycouldn'tfigureoutwhatthefraudwas...

Dave: KindoflikebytheFrenchparadox,right?

Gerald: Yeah,well,okayyeah.So,sothey,they…AndthiswastheendofBenvenistecareer,becausetheheadlinesinNaturewasthatthiswas,thisisadelusion,atrickofuhofsomesortandofcourseeverybodywantedtobelieveitwasatrick,because,becauseit'sunimaginablethatwaterhasthecapacitytostoreinformation.Andtheimplicationsofthiswasthatitdid,becausethiswaterhadbeenexposedtotheoriginalantibodymolecules,anditmustsomehowhaveacquiredinformationfromthosemolecules,otherwisetheexperimentwouldn’thaveworked.

AndJacquestoldmethatitwasarealmistaketocallitwatermemory,


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becauseformostpeopleitdidn'tconceivablethatwatercanremembersomething.Umitturnsoutthat,umwellIshouldsaythatuhacoupleofthingsabout,aboutJacquesBenveniste,aheroicguy.Andhis,hisexperimentshavebeenrepeated.Theywerefirstrepeatedbypeoplewhosaidtheycouldn'tgetthesameresult,andthatwaspublishedinNaturehappilyfortheNaturepeople,becausetheywantedtobevindicated.ButtheresponsefromuhfromJacquesBenvenistecrewisthatyouknowifyoureallysincerelywanttorepeatsomeofhisexperiments,andyoucan’tgetthesameresult,thefirstthingiscallthemandsaywhatamIdoingwrongifyouaresincereaboutit.

Umand,andsohearguedthatthesepeoplewere,theydidn'tfollowthesameprotocol,andthereforeit'sunlikelythattheywouldhavegottenthesameresult.HoweverIfoundthatafterwardthatthiswasmaybe5yearsafterward,I,Imetaguyatareviewin,inJapan.Andthisisahighlevelforeignscientistwhowasinadvisorytotheprimeministerorthepresidentorsomethingandhesaid,hewasonthecommitteethatmadesurethatBenvenistenevergotagrantagaindespitethefactthathisworkwasconfirmed,andhegavemethepapersthatconfirmedhisresults,andnowithasbeenconfirmedmanytimessincethen.Buthesaid,hesaidthatthereasonthattheydiscontinuedhisfundsisnotthattheydidn'tbelievehiswork,butthatitwasanembarrassmentforFrenchscientists,andforFrenchscience.It's,it’squiteanalogoustotheRussiadebaclethattookplace.

Andso,soFrenchsciencewasvindicatedand,andJacquesBenvenistewas,wasguilty.Andhebecameascientificjoke,youknowyouarehaving,havingtroubleremembering?Drinksomewaterandyouknowwatermemorywill,willrestore.And,andwhenIbeganmywork,uhIwasdiscouragedfrombeginningthiswork,becausefirstyouhaveuhBorisDerjaguin,andthenyouhaveJacquesBenvenisteandthese2debacles.Somanypeoplehavebeenreallyfearful,manyscientistsofimmersingthemselvesinwater.Soit'salongstoryandit'saninterestingstory,andthat’swhywaterisnotadiscipline.Uhyouknowwehavedisciplinesofnanotechnologyandgenomicsandsuch,andyouthinkthatwaterwouldbeimportant,butthere'salmostnofield.


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We,wetrytonucleateone.WehaveannualmeetingsthatIorganize.Uhit'scalledthe,theuhannualconferenceonthephysics,chemistryandbiologyofwater,andthatitattractsreallyinterestingpeoplewhoaredoinggroundbreakingexperiments,averyexcitingmeetingto,toattend.It's,it’s…Duringthepast3yearsorso,wehelditinBulgariawhichmaysoundlikeastrangeplace,butBulgariahashealingwaters,andmaybeIthinkit'ssomethinglike40%ofallthoseinEuropeareinBulgaria.Soit’s,it’sanappropriateplaceforawaterconference.

Dave: Sorry,Ihavearandomquestionrelatedtothat.

Gerald: Please.

Dave: IdrinkSanPellegrinoeventhoughit'sownedbyabigmeanwatercompanyNestle,butSanPellegrinoorSaintPellegrinohealingwaters,I,Ithinkit'sbetteralso,likethereisbottleinglass.Istheresomethingspecialabout,likeIdon’twanttocallthatonebrand,butaboutdrinkingbottledmineralwaterandthingslikethat,oramIjustdeceivingmyselfwhetherthisisBPAfree?

Gerald: Theanswerisyes.

Dave: Both?

Gerald: Well,youknowI,Ican’tprofessthatyouaredeceivingyourself.I,Ithinkum…Well,letmesaythatI'veseenevidencethatsomewatershavehealinguhcapacity.AndI'lljusttellyouaboutone,oneexample.Ontheotherhand,youknowyoubuy,theresomanywatersthatyoucanbuy,either,eitherinthesupermarketoronline,uhthere,theremustbedozensofthemonline,andtheyallprofesstohavehealinguhpowers.There'sonethatIcameacrossumIgotaphonecall4yearsagofromaguy,anduhhetoldmethatheworkedafamouslaboratory.Thelaboratoryshutdown,andhetooktheapparatustheyhadandhecreatedthewaterforhisownfamily,drinkinguhdrinkingwater.And,anduhthey,hetoldmetheyhaven’thadthefluoranythingfor2yearssincetheystarteddrinkingthat.Andsoyouknowmyreactionwas,okay,bigdeal,youknowuhmaybemanyreasonswhyyourfamily


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hasn’thadthefluforacoupleofyears.

Butthenhetoldmethattheneighbor,nextdoorneighborwhoknewaboutthiswaterthattheyweredrinking,theneighborknewofafriendwhowasondialysis,irreversiblekidneypathology.Anduhandshewantedtodrinkthewater,sohemanagedtogiveherthewaterandhetoldme,hesaiduhthatafter30daysofdrinkingthewater,uhshewentfromirreversiblepathologytonopathology.

Dave: Oops.

Gerald: HerreactionwasIdon’tbelieveyou.ActuallyIdidbelievehim,butI…Sohesentmethehospitalrecordsuhwhichconfirmedthatthatwasthecase,soIinvitedhimtoourconferenceuhtopresenthis,hisworkbecauseobviously,youknowifyouhave,ifyouhavewaterthatcanreverseirreversiblekidneypathologythat’s,that’squiteamazing.Andbythattimehehadmoreevidenceandoneofthepeopleattheconferencewentuhtovisithimwiththeprospectperhapsofprovidingthisonalargerscareforhumanity.Hecalledme,hetoldmethatthebusinessarrangementdidn’tworkout,howeverheinterviewed,sothehospitalrecordsandheinterviewedeverypatientwhothisguyhadclaimed,uhthepathologywasreversed,hesaidit’strue.SoI,Ibecamereallyimpressed,andheactuallyis,issellingthiswaterright,rightnow.Sothisis,thisisonecasewhereitappearsthatthereisrealevidence,youmightcallitanecdotalevidence,becausethere’vebeennoclinicaltrials,butitlookspromising.

Dave: Sojustsotobringthatoutfor,forthekindofskepticaround,anecdotalevidenceisstillevidence,right?Thisoneisstrong...

Gerald: Yeahabsolutely,yeah,yeah,rightit’s,it’sstatisticallyspeakinguhyouknowthepointisthere,theremaybe,theremaybeotherpeoplewhodrinkthewaterandwithnoresult,soandIguessaproperwaywillbeto,todoanextensiveseriesoftests,and,andblindordoubleblindtestandsee,seewhatworksandwhatdoesn’twork.Actuallyweproposethat,becausetherearesomanywaters,andIthinksomeofthemlookpromising,and,andneedtobedoneuhbyanindependentagent,


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someonewhounderstandsaboutwater.Todothatrequiresyouknow4,5milliondollarstodoitproperlytotestpatients,totestanimalswithtumor,oranimalswith,withirreversibleorgandiseaseliketheliverpathology,orwithkidneypathology.Otherwiseit’sdifficulttotellbecauseuhyougoontheinternet,andyoufindthesewatersand,andthey’reverysinceresoundingclaimthatthatwatercanreallyhelpreversepathology,youjustdon’tknowtotrustitornottotrustit,and,yeah.

Dave: Thereisareallyroughthinghere,becauseIlearnacompany,andwhen,there’rerulesrightnow,wherethegovernmentsayslikeyoumaynotmakeamedicalclaimaboutsomethingthatisnotadrug.Soifyouhaveawaterthat,thatmakespeopleyoungagain,thatactuallyworksanditworkseveninabunchoftrials,ifyoumakethatclaim,thosemightfinishyourcompanydown.It’slikeyou’remakingaclaimaboutwaterthatisnotadrugthereforeyoucan’tdothis,whichisentirescienceonhisphase,butit’strueforeveryfooditemoutthere.Sothese,thesepulllikeI’vemetIfewthatprobablymaybesomeofthosesameaspeople,wherethey’reworkingontheseamazingwatermachines,andyoudrinkthewaterandyou’relike,IcanfeelthereissomethinginhereandI’mprettysurethisisinplacebojustlikeyouknowyoufeellikecaffeinatedthedecafcoffee,it’sprettyhardforthatplaceboeffect,becauselikesomethinghappenedfromthecaffeine.

Gerald: Yeah.

Dave: So,youdrinkitlikeokay,likeIdon’tknowifIcanfinishthisbecauseI’mkindofbuzzing.Buttheniftheygooutthereandtheystartsayingthisstuffworks,thenassoonastheyhitalevelofcommercialsuccessthey’llgetshutdown.Ihavethisoverandover,it’smygreatfrustration.AndIdon’t,I,Idon’treallyknowhowtogetaroundthat,becausewhatweneedis,isalittlebitoffreedomofspeechforbusinessestosaywedon’tknow,butwe’reprettysureandhereisourevidenceandyoucandecideforyourselves,becauseitisunlikelytocauseharm.Butuntilwegetthatrightinthiscountrywhichwedon’thaverightnow,doyouthinkthatanyofthesewatercompanieshaveachancetostartseeingthelighttoday?


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Gerald: Well,theyhaveseenthelightandsomeofthemaremoresuccessful

thanothers,butasyousayyouknowtheycan’tclaimwhatmightactuallybethecase,thereisonethat’sdifferent.PerhapsyouknowabouttheKangenwaterinJapan.

Dave: Yeah,whatdoyouthinkaboutthat?

Gerald: Iknowcomments,Idon’tknowwesometimeswe,wedrinkit,uhbutIgottotellyouthatinJapantheydiddoclinicaltrialsthatandasaresultoftheclinicaltrialsthereisawholebunchofevidenceasaresultoftheclinicaltrials.IfyouhaveanykindofgastrointestinalprobleminJapanfromyourmouthdownallthewaytoyouranus,theyputyouonthiswaterandthegovernmentpaysforit.Governmentsdon’tpayforsomethingthatyouknowthatit,thatdoesn’thaveefficacy.Sotheyhavedoneenough,enoughtrialsonthat,butImeanstillthere’re,there’resomepeoplewhoclaimtherearesomelong-termeffectsthatmaybeuh,uhnegative.I’mnotsureaboutthat,butIjustwanttopointoutthatinJapantheclinicaltrialsworked,and,andpeopleareputonthatwater.

It’sactuallyverysimple,youjustputthewaterthrough2electrodesinthemachine,oneisnegativeoneispositiveandyoudrinktheonethatgoesandpassesthroughthenegativeelectrode,whichhasahighPH,andthestuffthatcomesoutthroughthepositiveelectrode,thereislowPHandifyoutrytodrinkit,youspititoutimmediately.Ittasteslikesomethinglikehighlychlorinatedwater,anditkillsbacteria,butit’s,it’scertainlynotgoodforyou.Ithinkthatthe,theyouknowour,ourresearchshowsthatthe,thenegativechargesis,isreallyimportantforuhforhealth.Andumitisadifferentissuebutumit’snotsomethingthatisakindofamainstreamkindofuhidea,but,butitgoesbacktothewaterthekindofwaterthatwiththisfourthphasethatwe’rediscoveringwhichisnegativelycharged,that’soneofthefeaturesofthiswater.Andit’sthekindofwaterthatfillsyourcells,so...

Dave: Doesthekangenmachinemakewaterlikethefourthphasewater?

Gerald: I’mnotsure,we,wetriedtestingthe,thatkindofwaterandusingthe


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testthatweusuallyemploy,itdidn’tshowit.However,inlaboratorywhenwedidexperimentsuhputtingthenegativeelectrodeinthewater,weactuallydidfindthiskindoffourthphasewaterthatwediscovered,sotheanswerisI’mnotsureifitdoesordoesn’t.Butforsureithasnegativecharge,and,and,andyeah,andyouknowsoyouknowyourcells,this,thiskindofwaterthatwe’retalkingabout,thefourthphasewaterformsnexttohydrophilicwaterlovingservices,andthecellisjustfilledwithwaterlovingservices.Alltheproteinsandothermacromoleculesarechargedonthesurface,andsothewaterthatsitsnexttothoseservicesshouldbeeasywater,orwecalledtheeasyexclusionsonthefourthphase,it’s,it’sjustdifferentterminologyforthesamething.

So,thisstarphaseisyourcellsarerepletewiththiskindofwater;it’snotordinaryH2Othat’sinyourcells.And,andyouknowphysiologistsknowthatcellshavenetnegativecharge,uhandit’sbeen…There’sbeensome,someuhhypothesisasto…For50yearsor60yearsastowhythecellhasanegativecharge.Butsincewefoundthatthewaterthatpopulatesthecellhasanegativecharge,wekindofunderstandthatonepossiblereasonforthecellsnegativechargeisbecauseithasthiskindofnegativelychargedwater.Youknowyouhaveasackwithsomenegativelychargedstuff,andthenit’sgoingto…Thesackisgoingtohaveanegativecharge,andwe’venurturedthat.Andsoumifyourcellsdon’thaveenoughofthiswater,thenyourcellsaregoingtobelessnegativelycharged,andIfyourcellshaveafullcomplementofthisstuff,they’regoingtohavemoreuhnegativecharge.Sowe,we’vecometouhkindofahypothesisthatmorenegativechargethatyouhaveinyourbodythehealthieryou’regoingtobe.

Dave: Nowthat’sdifferentthanthePHofyourcells,allright,becauseof…

Gerald: Well,yes,yesandyesandno.SoyouknowwethinkofPH,wethinkofPHastheconcentrationofhydrogenionsOHminus.Butsomeoftheexperimentsthatwe’vebeendoingindicatethatwhenyouhavelowPHthatisalotofproteins,youhaveanetnegative,netpositivecharge,andwhenyouhavemoreOHminusgroups,youhaveexcessnegativecharge.Soit’snotthatumit’snotthat,thateverysolutionisneutral,uh


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youknowuhandit’spossiblewe’restudyingthisrightnow.It’spossiblethatasarulewhen,whenyouhavesomethingthat’sacidic,thatisa,aanabundanceof,ofproteinsthatyouactuallyhavethatthissolutionthatyou’reholding,thebeakeractuallyhasnetpositivecharge,it’snotneutral.

Umchemistsliketoininvoketheprincipleofelectronneutrality,everythingshouldbeneutral,butweknoweverythingisnotneutral,becauseumyoucanactuallymeasure,youcouldtake2beakersuhwith1substanceandanothersubstance,andyoucanactuallymeasurepotentialdifferencebetweenthis,andyoucangetcurrentflowfromonetotheother.Andsoit,itseemspossibleit'snotlikelythat,thatyouknowthatliquidscansustaincharge.Andwedo,wemademeasurementsofpeople,uhandsoyouarenegativelycharged.I'mnegativelychargedtoo,butIthinkyouaremorenegativelychargedbecauseyouarehealthierthanIam.Oratleastyoudon'thaveasmuchgreyhair,so…Andthat'swhyyouknowuhthereisthisuhideaaboutearthlingyourselforgroundingyourself.

Youtakeawalkonthebeachwhereyoutakeoffyourshoesandyoufeelgoodafter10or20minutesorsoof,ofdoingthat.Andthepeoplewhohavestudiedthisunderstandthatwhatyouaredoingisyouareactuallysoakingupnegativechargefromtheearth.Theearthhasanetnegativecharge,thisisanotherfactthatisnotwidelyknown,butamongtheRussiansandinothercountries50yearsor60yearsagoitwascommonknowledge,butwe'veforgottenthat.Andsowhenyouconnectyourselftotheearth,yousupupthisnegativechargeandyoufeelbetter.Youfeelhealthier,sotheresearchhas,hasshownthat.SoI,Ijustwanttomakethatpointthat,thatumifyou…Anythingyoucandopractically,anythingyoucandotogainnegativechargeshouldintheorybegoodforyourhealth.

Antioxidantsare,areoneofthosebecause,becauseoxidationis,isloseofnegativity,andsoantioxidationuhmeansyoudon’tlosethat,thatnegativityandnegativityisreallyimportant.Thebodyactuallytriesitsbesttogetridofpositivecharge.Ifyouthinkaboutityouknoweverytimeyougotothetoiletandpee,thePHofthatislow,it’suh,and,and


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soyouare,you’regettingridofproteins,youaregettingridofpositivecharge.EverytimeyouexhaleyouaregettingridofCo2andwaterwhichiscarbonicacid,acidgettingridofpositivecharge.Whenyousweatuhit’ssimilar,youuhyouuhsweat,thesweatactuallyhaslowPH.Andacolleagueofmineuhwasactuallymeasuringhis,his,hisbody'schargeandtookadump,andfoundoutafterwardthathegotmorenegative.Andsoapparentlyhewaslosingpositivechargethatwaytoo.Thisneedstobestudiedofcoursein,ingreaterdepth,butit’sakindofprinciplethatcomesout.

Dave: Ihavedefinitelybeensleepingwithonetypeofearthingoranotherfor8yearsnow,Ithink9years.Andtalkingaboutit...

Gerald: Really?

Dave: That’soneofthe,thehacksthatyoucando,butIusedtoweigh300pounds.Ihadchronichealthproblemsasachild,arthritisat14and,andall,allsortsofstuffthatshouldn’thavebeen.IncludingbasicmitochondriapoisoningasfarasIcantellfromlivinginawaterdamagedbuildingwhereyougetairbornemicrotoxinsthatinhibitmitochondriarespiration.AndI’vesincewecoveredprettydowndramaticallyfromallthatkindofstuff.

Gerald: Itseemsso.

Dave: (Laughs)andoneofthethingsthathelpedthemostwasozonetherapy,whichuhyouactuallyuseozonegas,smalldosesofitdirectlywhichhaslotsandlotsoffreeelectronsinit,right?

Gerald: Yeah,(laughs)yeahyoufigureditoutanotherwaytodothat.

Dave: Yeah,andtheyactuallydoitintravenouslyaswell,and,andI’vealsodonealotofelectricalcurrentstuffuhovermybodythatseemstohaveplayedamajorrole.AswellasIhadanalkalinewatermachinestartingin96,IboughtonebeforeKangencameoutIthink.Butit,itactuallyjustcauseddiarrheabecauseitturnsoffstomachacidwhereyoukindofneedacid,soI,itturnsoutformeI'malreadytooalkaline.SoIhada


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weirdsituationwhereIwasactuallynotmakingenergywellinthecells,yetIwasalmostonhyperalkaline,which,whichstilldidn'tmakesense,butitwasbecausesomethingwasinhibitingrespiration.Soyougothroughallthat,alotofpeopleokaywecallthatchronicfatiguesyndrome,fibromyalgia,lungdisease,allthatstuff.

Gerald: Yeah,yeah.

Dave: What,whatisyourdiscoveryhavetosayaboutlikethosesituations,thosepeoplearerunningaroundrunningathalfstrength,likedotheyneedmoreeasywater,dotheyneedmoregroundinglike,likeImeanyouarestudyingbioengineering,someofthemaremostinterestingstuffIcanthinkof.If,ifeverythingsuckedinyourlife,becauseyoujustneverhadenoughenergyandnothingseemstobeworking,right?Whatwouldyoudowithwaterinordertoturnthingsbackon?

Gerald: Well,okayuhthereareacoupleofthings;um,umbesidesumdrinkingtherightwaterwhichisnot,notsoclearwhichoneis,istherightwater.Lightis,isalsoonereallypowerfulagent,andsowhyislightapowerfulagent?Well,sothiswaterthatwearetalking,thisfourthphasewaterisbuiltbylight.If,ifyoustartwithwaterumandyouwanttocreate...Youstartwithordinarywaterandyouwanttocreatethisfourthphaseofwater,lightistheagentistheenergythat,thatdoesit.Andespeciallyinfraredlight,souminfraredlightisallover,youcan'tgetridofit,isif,if,ifyouturnoffallthelightsintheroomand,andshuttheshadesandwipeoutyourinfraredcamera,youcangetabeautifulimage,it'ssortoflikethisnight,nightcameras.Everythinggeneratesinfraredatnight,novisiblelight,butlotsofinfrared,soyoucangetanimage.

Soit'sallover,andit'sactuallyliterallyfreeenergy,it'snotthekindoffreeenergythatwelearnaboutinourchemistryclass,butit'sliterallyfreeforthetaking,it'sthere.Whichmeansthatthiswater,thisfourthphasewateris,isalsothere.However,umyouknowifyouaresick,uhthereisafairlygoodchancethatyouaredeficientinthiseasywater,there,therearescientificreasonsthatwe,wewhichthisconclusionthatmaybebeyondgoing,goingin,intohere.ButIcanjustsaythatyouknowyour,yourcells,it’stheproteinsinyourcellsthatact,theyfoldin


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certainways,and,andthatmakesthecellwork.Andtheusualenvironmentforfoldingisthateachproteinissurroundedbyfourthphasewater.Andifyoudon’thaveenoughofit,thenyourproteinsarenotsurroundedbytheirusualmildewandtheycan'tdowhattheyordinarilydo,andsoyouaresuddenlysick,it'snotactuallyfunctioning.

Soone,onepossibilityisthatyouwanttobuildupthiseasywaterinuhinyourcells,andthewaytodoitisto…Onewaytodoitistoexposeyourselftoinfraredlight.Away…I,IjustcamefromRussia,Iwasthereafewdaysago,andthewaytheydoitisuhwecallitsonar,andtheycallitbonier,it’sthesamesortofthingyouknowthey...You,yougointoa,aroomanduhit'seitherwithwaterorwithoutwater,humidornothumidwithinfrared,it's,it’saverytemperatureandsoyousoakupthisinfrared.Andwhenyoucomeout20or30minuteslateryoufeellikeamilliondollarsorrobustifyoulike.And,andsowhyisthat?Well,wellthethought,oronethoughtisthatthisispurelypsychological,andmaybesomeofitis.

Butyouknowourexperimentsshowthatifyouaddinfraredlight,uminfraredenergy,youbuildeasyfourthphasewater.Anduhandthesamethinghappensinsideyourbody;yourbodysoaksupthisinfraredenergy,becausewaterinyourbodylikestoabsorbthatkindofenergy.Andfromourexperimentsweknowthatthatbuildeasywater.Soonepossibilityhypothesisis,isthatbysittinginthesonarorthebonier,thereasonyoufeelgoodisthatyourcells,particularlythecellsthathadbeendeficientineasywatertobeginwith,thewaterbuildsupandyouhavethenafullcomplementofeasywater.Andsoifyourmuscleswereaching,areasonwhytheymighthavebeenachingisthattheyarebasicallydehydrated.

Theydon’t,forwhateverreasondon’thaveenoughofthiswater,theygetre-hydratedwithit.So,sothereforeanditcouldbeuhthesamethinghappensinyourbrain,youarefeelingdepressed,yourcellsarenot…Yourbraincells,yourneuronsarenotfunctioningoptimally.Youwanttogetthemtofunctionthewaytheyshouldfunction,soyouaddtheinfrared,itbuildsupthewater,andthenyourcellsbeginfunctioningnormally.Soit’sthatkindofgeneraleffectumthatis


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infrared…

Dave: Sorrytointerrupt,isacampfiregoodenough,Imeanisaradiantheatergoodenough?

Gerald: Well,thatneedstobestudied.Peopleareusingdifferentwavelengthsof,oflight.Sittinginfrontofacampfireusuallyyoufeelgoodbasically.Youknowthesame,samekindoflight.Ihadn’tthoughtaboutthat,butperhapsitisgood.I,IknowthatinAsiaandsomecountrieslikeinKoreatheyhaveuhdifferentstones,differentcrystalsthattheyheatdependingonwhatyour,whatyourissueis,andwhatyour,yourproblemis.Andthisneedstobestudiedaswell,butitseemstobequiteeffective,soyouknowifyouhaveastomachproblemyou,yousubjectyourselftoonesetofwavelengthsofinfrared.Andifyou,youhavealiverproblemperhapsuhanothersetofwavelengths.SoIjustwanttosaythatit'snot,it’snotjustthesonar,orthebonier,it’sactuallylighttherapyis,isusedfor,formanyissuesuhfromdepressiontoskindiseaseand,andmoreandmorelighttherapyis,isbecomingroutine.Andit'sexpandingrapidly.

Dave: I'vehaduhdifferentcolorlasersfordoinglighttherapy,lowlevellasertherapybecamelowlevellighttherapy.Umgoingbackabout15years,with,withprofoundresultsuhon,onmyownlikemusclerelaxationandspeedofhealing,andthingsthatarealmostunexplainable.Ithinkwearediscoveringitnow.AndyourbookIthinkexplainssomeofthereasonswhythatmightwork,becauseIcan’ttellyouallthereasonsitworks.Uhthere'saresomethingsaboutnitricoxidethatareinterestingdependingonwhetherit'saredlightorwhateverelse.

ButIcantellyou,youputaninfraredLEDoraredLEDor,orsome,somecasesbluebutnotusually,youputthoseoneandsomethingverytangiblehappens.And,andasascientistmindedpersonyouarelike,“Okay,uhIdon’tknowwhy,butI,IknowifIdoA,thenBusuallyhappens,I'mgoingtotakeadvantageofthefactwell,Idiscovered,Idiscoveredwhy.”

Gerald: Absolutely,absolutely,sure.You,youneedto.I,I,Ijustwasexposed


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recentlytouhanotherkindoftherapy;theseguyswereusingultravioletlight.

Dave: Ohneat?

Gerald: Umyeah,sothisis,thisisdone…Uhit’salocal…

Dave: Intravenousor?

Gerald: Yeah,actuallyintravenous.

Dave: Idothattoo.

Gerald: Yousticka…Ohyou’vedoneit?

Dave: Yeah,absolutely.

Gerald: Ohyou,yeahhow,howdidyoufeel?

Dave: Itmakesyoufeelamazingand...

Gerald: Yeah.

Dave: SoWhydoyouthinkthatmightwork?Iknowthere'savitaminDeffectthat’sthat’s,that’slittleknown,but,butwhatisyourexperience.I'mreallyinterested.

Gerald: UmIhaven’t,Ihaven’tdoneitmyself.Ijustsawthatmachinethat’susedto,todemonstrateit.ButwellIthinkitworksbecauseuhwell,thisisabitofa,alongerstorybut,butI,Ithinkthatifyou,ifyoulookatthebloodflowthatoccursintheverysmallcapillaries,Ithinkit'sdifferentfromwhat,what,we,wepresume.AndI,Ifoundthisoutactuallyin,inRussia.Istartedmycareerstudyingtheuhdynamicsofthecardiovascularsystem,andyouknowtheheartdevelopingpressureandpumpingintothearteries,andarteriolesandsuch.AndIthoughtforsurethatwehadalltheanswers,andumthatIcouldexplainpracticallyanything.


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Peoplewhodevelopmodelsalmostuniformlythinkthat,andIguessI,I

wasoneofthose.AndwhenIwasinRussia,I,Igotherefairlyuhfrequently.IadmiretheRussianresearch,these,thesearepeoplewhoreallythink.IwasinMoscowuniversity,anduhsomefriendsofmyfrienduhsatdownwithmeandtheytoldmethisarealproblem.Andtheproblemis,is,isthatyouknowyouhavecapillariesandforyoungadults,healthyadults,thecapillariesare3or4micrometersindiameter,buttheredbloodcellsthatneedtopassthrougharealmosttwicethediameter.SoitlookslikeMotherNaturescrewedup,andthere'saplumingproblemhereandsortoflikeyouknowyougotothetoiletandthestuffthatneedstogothroughcan’tgothroughandyouneedtoplungerto…Yeah,soyouknowwhatI'm,I’mumtalkingabout.

So,it'skindofsimilarbecausethequestionisthattheyraiseis,well,Imeanhowdoyougetthoseredbloodcellstopassthroughsomethingthat’snarrower,andifyoulookatvideosshowing,showingthisyoucanseethatthebloodcellsactuallytheykindofsquangedowninordertogetthrough,butthatsquangingrequiresenergyyousee.Andwhattheypointedoutisthatiftheheartwerereallyresponsiblefordrivingthoseredbloodcellsthosetinycapillaries,theamountofpressurethattheywouldneedtodevelopissomethinglike1milliontimesthepressurethattheheartactuallydevelops.So,sosomethingelseisgoingonthere.Thereneedstobesomeofkindofassisttothis.AndIthinktheassistcomesfromlight,andthereasonIthinksois,isthatwecanputa,atubeinwateranduhlikeastraw.Justputitinthewater,layitdownhorizontally,andflowgoesthroughthattubeautomaticallyandendlessly.Itjustkeepsflowing.Andwediscoveredthatabout3yearsago,andwehaveafewpapersonit.

Dave: Thatsoundslikeaperpetualmotionmachine.Itsoundslikesomeoneshouldjusttakeawayyourlicenseright?

Gerald: Yeahitsoundslikeit.

Dave: Imean,youcan’ttalkaboutthesethings(laughs).Tellmemore,I'msointerested.


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Gerald: Yeah.No,no,noitsoundslikeaperpetualmotionmachine.Andof

courseitdoes…Usuallywhatyouneedispressuretodrivefluidthroughapipe,andifyouhavenoenergythen…Butweknowabouttheenergybecausewaterabsorbsenergyfromtheenvironment,theinfraredenergyforexample,oranykindoflightenergy,somewavelengthswillabsorbmorethanothers.Thewaterisreceivingenergyallthetimeandtransfusingthatenergy,convertingitintoothertypeofenergy.

Andsowepinpointedtheenergyiscoming,comingfromlight.Andyoucanlookattheflowgoingthroughthetube,uhthewaterflowingthroughthetube,weputlittleuhparticlesinthewater,sowecanactuallyvisualizemicroscopically,youcanseetheflowgoingthrough,andweturnupthelightandwewereabletogetupto5timesfasterflowjustbyturningupthelightintensity,that’sall.

Dave: Wow.

Gerald: Andthenturnitbackdown,it'sslowsdown.

Dave: Indarkness,there'snoeffect.

Gerald: Yes,andnobecause,becauseinfraredlightisdarklight.Imeanyouknowit'snotinthevisiblewavelengthrange.Soturningoffthelightsintheroom,wemoosethevisiblewavelengths,butsinceit'smostlybeyondthevisibleactuallysomeofitis,isinfraredred,butalsoultravioletlighthasaneffectas,aswell.And,and,andsoumandwefoundthefactthatultravioletlight,itwasreallyeffectivein,inspeedinguptheflowthroughthetube.Sointhelaboratoryweturnedonthelight,wegetflowthroughanarrowtube,whyshouldn’tthesamehappeninsideyourbody.Youturnupthelightsorthelightthat’sbeingabsorbeduhmaybeactuallydrivingthoseredbloodcellsthroughthosenarrowtubesjustaswesawinthelaboratory.Andwearenowdoingsomeexperimentstotestthisidea.

Dave: Doesitmatter,UVA,UVB,UVC?


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Gerald: Well,wearetestingthatrightnow.

Dave: Ohcool.I,Iwanttoseeyourresearch.I,Iexposemyselfeverymorning

forabout10minutes,becauseIliveonVancouverIslandupnearwhereyouareinSeattle.There'snotenoughsunhere,soeverymorningfor10minutesIgetmyultravioletradiationfromthesunlamp.I,Irememberjustonacallwith,withoneofthemembersofmyteam,andI'msortoflikenakedstandinginfrontofalight,butfortunatelyit’snotavideocall.Soit'sallgood.Uh,butI'mhopefulthatmaybebeneficialforthestaff,butIdon’tknowbutIknowforotherthingslikevitaminDandsulphationofvitaminDisprobablygood,but…Isthatagoodpractice?Wouldyourecommenditornot?

Gerald: I,I,Ican’tsay,allIcansayisthat,itprobablyisuhbutI,I,Iyouknow,I…We,wehaven’tdonetrialsonthat,soI'mnotsure.

Dave: Bythewaythankyouforthatanswer.The,theaverageuhscientistwhenyousaywellIknowyoudon’tknow,butifyouhadtobet,they,theyaresohesitant;Idon’treallywanttobetuntilIhavedoneadoublelinestudy.Andyou’relikesayingandyouarewillingtosayprobablyisactuallyareallycourageousthing.Sothankyouforthat,because…

Gerald: Ohwell(laughs)uhIhadtheriskuhcriticismfrommycolleagues.Umyeah,Imeanit'sgreatto,tohavehypothesisanduh,uhthenyougetsomewhere.

Dave: Aslongasyou’requalifiedIthinkyou,youarebeingveryscientific.Ihad,IhadachancetoaskCraigVenterlikegiveneverythingyouknowaboutthehumangenomeandallthoseincredibleresearch,likewhatshouldIdotodaybasedonyourbestpossibleguess?Isaidorshouldwejusthavepizzaandbeerandfigureitout.Andhegoes,let’stalkaboutitoverpizzaandbeer(laughs).Andsothey’llpulltheirhairout,becausehewassuchilluminatedbutthat’sscientifictheoryofI’mnotgoingtopickadirectionuntilI'mreallysureorI'mnotgoingto,I’mnotgoingtochooseadirection.AndwhatIwanttodo,Iwanttolive180yearsold.I'mgoingtopickadirection,becauseifIdon’tpickadirection,I'm


29

probablygoingtogothewrongway.AndImightpickthewrongdirection,butatleastItriedand...

Gerald: Yeah,andyoumightpicktherightdirection(laughs).180that’s,thatwouldbeimpressive.

Dave: I'mworkingonit,I...

Gerald: Goodluck.Hopeyougetthere.

Dave: Doyoudoanyworkwiththepiezoelectriceffectsofcellmembranebyanychance?

Gerald: No.Um,whydoyouask?

Dave: I,Ihaveamachinedownstairsthat’smadeoutof,of,cockpitfromafighterjet.Andittakesyouto22,000feetelevation,dropstosealevel,backto22,000inrapidsuccessionwhichpumpsallofyourcellmembranes,andhasabizarrepiezoelectric,likeitgenerateselectricityonthecellmembrane.Andit's,it’sareallycoolthingandit'salittlenoneffect.ButI’vejustthoughtofanyoneI'veeverspokentoonBulletproofradioifthatmightbeaneffectthatyoucomeacross.

Gerald: Howdoyouknowit'sthemembrane?

Dave: Umthere'sactually2studies,I’llsendthemtoyouafterwards,uhtalkingabouta,acellmembranepiezoelectriceffectaboutalittlelipiduhspheresonthesurfaceofthecellmembranes.Thattheythemselvesarepiezoelectricapartfromlikebonepiezoelectricity,andthingslikethat.SoIwasblownawaytoseeit,andyoucertainlyfeelaneffectfromit,butitmightbeanitricoxideeffectnotanythingmore,andthereappearstobeastencileffect,butit'sallcertainthingswhereyoucan’tsaywhatitdoesn'tevenifyouthinkyouknow,becausethenyouwillbesellingdrugs.Soit’samachinethatmakesyoufeelgood(laughs).

Gerald: Yeah,yeah.Thereare,there’remechanalelectricaleffectsforsure,becauseyouknowuhifyouhaveeasywatersittingnexttoordinary


30

water,oneismoredensethantheother,thatistheeasywaterisdenserthanthebulkwater.Ifyousqueezeit,putpressureonit,thenthetendencyistogotowardthemoredenseuhof,ofthe2.Andsowefoundexperimentallythatifwedidthat,ifweappliedpressure,wegetmoreeasywater.Andeasywaterisnegativelycharged,soitmeansyou,youapplyforceandyougetchargeoutofthat,soit’sessentiallyapiezoelectriceffect.Andthat’swhy,that'swhyIaskedyouhowsureyouwerethatitwasamembraneeffect.Manyscientistsattributealmosteverythingintothecellmembrane.

Dave: Membranedoesn'treallyaffect,itdoesn'treallyexistwhenyoulookatwhathappenswhenyoustripthemembrane,andtheinsideofthecellstillworks.Sothemembraneisnotwhatyouthinkisupwithyouthere.

Gerald: Absolutely,absolutely.YeahIthinkthat’strue,themembraneisoverrated.

Dave: Now,okay.Let’sassumethatIhaveacoupleofthousanddollars.AndI’m,Iactuallyliveonanorganicfarmumdoingmybestto,tokeepeverythingworkinginmybody.AndIcandowhateverIwanttomywaterfiltrationsystem.Ialreadyhaveactivatedacharcoal,Iguessawellthat’snot,notpolluted.IrunitthroughaUVfilterandthevariouspolishingthingsisabsolutelyneutralandfromaPHperspective.DoIneedtoinstallabigbankofinfraredLEDsin,inacleartube;doIneedtoinstallelectrodes?LikewhatdoIdotolikebasicallyshowerineasywaterthatdripsoutofthefossillikestrawsupeveryday?LikewhatshouldIdohere?

Gerald: Again,I,youknowI'mnotsure,butIcancertainlyuhspeculate,orhypothesize.Ithinklightisreallyimportant.UmIspendyour$2000uhputtinglightintoit,andifyouaskmewhichwavelengths,I'mnotsure.I,Iwouldsaythatprobably…Umwefoundthatinfraredlightatroughly3000nanometerwavelengthisverygoodforbuildingeasywater,especiallyifyouhavealittlebitofsalt,ifyouhavemineralsuhinthewaterwhichyouprobablydo,yeah,well…Andyou…Becausewhathappensisthattheeasyfourthphasewaterbuildsaroundthemineralsthemselves.


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And,andsoifyou,ifyouhadlight,the,thewavelengthsyoucanget

moreeasywater.AndI,Ithinkthatwater,atleasttheevidencesofaristhatifyoudrinkwaterthatcontainseasywaterit'slikelytobegoodforyou,becausethat’sthekindofwaterthat’sinsideyourcell.Soyouarebasicallyrefurbishingwaterinsideyourcells.SoIguessthat’sprobablywhat,whatIwoulddo,butagainI'mspeculating.

Dave: It’s,thankyouforlabelingitasspeculation.I,Itotallyunderstandit'sspeculation,andeveryonelistening,ifyougoandyoubuythisanditdoestheoppositeofwhatyouexpectittodo,itcouldhappen,right.Thisisn'ta…

Gerald: Yeah,itcouldhappenyouknow.Butthisis,youknow,you,youreallyputyourfingeronsomethingthat’sterriblyimportant.Waterissoimportantforourhealthiscentral,butthere'salmostnofundedresearchon,onwater.IfyoutrytogetmoneyfromtheNationalInstituteofHealth,ifyouwanttostudyadrug,it'sfine.There'snoproblemasyoupointedoutearlier.Butifyouwanttostudywater,thenthisissomethingthattheyalmostneverheardof.Umandsothere,therearenofundsavailabletodothat.Anduhwith,withyourinfluenceperhapsyou,(laughs)you,youcouldchangethat.It’sreally,reallyimportanttostudyuh,uhwater.

Dave: I'mreallyintrigued,Idoworkwiththe,theXPRIZEfoundation,they’retheguyswhodida10milliondollaruhgranttobasicallyuhturnonprivatespaceexploration,anditworked.ThereareabunchmoreXPRIZEslikethat.SothismakesmethinkthatmaybeweneedtodoanXPRIZEwithneuroXuharoundfundingsomefundamentalresearch.Letmekeepmymindworkingonthatbecausethisdoesdeservea,alotofattention.Uhhaveyoulookedatuhthe,theO16versus018DDW,likedeuteriumdepletedwater?Isthatanythingthattheyarespendingonyourresearch?

Gerald: No,wehaven’tdoneit,butI,Iknowthattherearesomescientistswhoarestudyingthat,andyouprobablyknowmoreaboutthatthanIdo.Itseemstohaveapositiveeffect.


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Dave: I'mthinkingaboutgettingsomethingthatmakesDDWwaterwhichisa,

asizableinvestment,butIwanttoliveto180.Ijustdon’tknowifit'skindofit’sworthit,right?

Gerald: WhataboutdrinkingtheHunzawater.YouknowabouttheHunza?

Dave: IknowabouttheHunzapeople,butI'mnotsureaboutHunzawater.

Gerald: HenriCoandăwhoisaNobellaureatestudyingfluidswenttovisittheHunzatofindoutwhytheylivedto,not180asfarasIknow,butcertainly110,120theyhavebabiesatage90…

Dave: I'mgoingtoraiseRayKurzweilaswell,that’smygoal(laughs).

Gerald: Oh(laughs).Wellso,sohefound,hefoundoutthatuhit'sthewater;uhit'sfullofminerals.It'sactuallythickwith,withminerals,andthetouristswhogotheredrinkthewater.I'mtoldtheyactuallyfilterthewaterforthem,becausethosepeoplewon’tdrinkthatwaterthat’s,that’skindofthickwith,withminerals.SoI'mnotsuretheygetthefullbenefitofit,but,I,I'mnotsureifyouknowPatrickFlanaganwho…Yeah,he’s,he’sstartedoutandheproduceduhaproductthat…

Dave: Themiraclecrystalstuff.Thelittledropletsyouput…Yeah,Iusedtousethat.

Gerald: Yeah,apparentlymimicswhattheHunzahave,have,haveused.Andumagainthat,thatmightbeanother,anotheruhgoodapproach.Imustmentiononemoresincewearetalkingabouthealth,andthatisjuicing.Probablyyoudothattoo.

Dave: YeahIhavetojuiceandinhaveappletrees.Idrinkthesapthatcomesoutbeforeyouconcentrateitintosyrup.That’sbasicallypureeasywaterasfarasIcantell.

Gerald: Yeah,itmusthavealotofeasy…UhbutI'mtalkingaboutthe,thesortofmorestandardwayoftakingvegetablesandmaybesomefruitsyeah,


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orkale,itdoesn'ttastegreat,butyoukindgetusedtoitandbegintolikeit.Andyouknow,sowhatyouaredoing,whatyouaredrinkingisessentiallycellwater,rightbecauseit'sthewaterthatyousqueezeout,it’swaterthat’sinsidethecellsoftheplants.And,anduhthephysiciansI'vespokentoyoumightcallthemalternativecomplimentarymedicine.Manyofthemuseit.

Andthepatientcomesinanditdoesn'tmatterwhattheproblemis,itdependsuhincludingsomeoftheonesyou’vementionedfibromyalgia,andkindofvague,vaguesymptoms.Anditseemsliketheyarealmostalwaysdrinkingthatstuffforafewmonthsis,isofgreathelp.AndasIsaidIthinkthereasonithelpsisthatyouareaddingcellwatertothewaterthatmaybedeficientin,inyourowncellwhichremindsmeofthefamousbookthatyouprobablyknowabout,theonethat’syouarenotsick,youarethirsty?Youknowthatbook?

Dave: Right,right.

Gerald: Yeah.And,andthatalsoisaantidotalevidence,butpowerfulantidotalevidenceby,bythisIranianphysicianwhowellbecameapoliticalprisoner,becausehewasasupporteroftheshah.Whentheshahwasdeposedhewasthrowninprison.So,sohewasaphysician,andsohewastheonewhohadtotreatalltheotherpoliticalprisoners,andallhehadavailablewaswater.And,andsofinallyhewrotethebookuhthatdescribeshisexperiencesnotonlyinprisontreatingpatients,butwhenheemergedfromprisonhecontinuedhisstudies.Ifoundmyselfreally;reallyimpressedbythesincerityof,ofthisbookwhichbythewayhissonwhoImetbychancetoldmesoldmorethan7millioncopies.

Dave: Wow.

Gerald: Yeah,reallypopular.It'scheap.YoucanbuyitonAmazon.It'sveryimpressiveuhonceyouhavetodealforexamplewithdiabetesinotherwordsheartdisease.Andhe,hetellsstoriesabouthispatientswhocameinandhesaid,justdrinkalotofwater.Andtheygotbetterjustbydrinkingalotofwater.


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Dave: IhadaweirdexperiencebackwhenIwasliving,itturnsoutinamolddamage,waterdamagebuilding.SoIwasgettingdailyexposurethatwascausingmetheinflammation.Idida24hoururinechallenge;youhadtocollectallyoururinefor24hours.Icollected7litersofurine.

Gerald: 7liters?

Dave: Yeah,okaygrantedIwasprobably280poundsatthetime,butIwasn’ttryingtodrinkextrawater,probablyIwasbecauselikeIknewifIdrinkmorewaterIwouldbehealthier.Iwasalwaysthirsty,butitwaslikethewaterwouldn’tstickinmybody.LikenomatterhowmuchIdrunk,Iwasalwaysthirsty.Is,isthisawaterstructuringissueoristhislikemykidneysareovertoxic?Whatwasgoingon?Doyouhaveanyidea?

Gerald: Itcouldbeawaterstructuring,yeahImean,so,sotheabilitytohydratemaydependonthetypeofwater,andIbetitdoes.Again,wehaveatheoryastowhythis,thismightbe.Youknowthecellsarenegativelychargedandumifyou,ifyouum,exposewaterthathascharge,socalleddipolewaterwhereyouhaveplusatoneend,minusattheother,uhitshouldbeabsorbedmorequicklybythisnegativelychargedcell,becausewhathappensisthatyouknowyougotablobofnegativecharge,andthenyouhavea,adipolesittingherewithaplusandminus.Thisisnegative,thepluswillorientclosestandgetpulledin,and,andthefourthphaseofwaterisdefinitelychargedseparated.It'sadipole.Ithashugeamountsofnegativeatoneendandpositiveattheother.Soitshouldbesuckedinbythecellmorequickly.Againthisneedstesting.It'sjustahypothesis.

Dave: Ofcoursewe,weareinthelandoftheoriesnow.AreyouatallconcernedabouttheseLEDlightsthatmakenoinfraredwhatsoever,buthavelotsofthebluespectrum?

Gerald: Yeah,IambecauseuhIheardsometalkatoneoftheconferencesaboutsocalledlightpollution.Andyouknowinsome,insomecitiesuhit’slightallnight,andthebluelightisassimilatory.AnditisassimilatorybecauseI,I,Ithinktheenergyfromthelightuhcreatesmoreofthis,umitseparateschargeandtheseparatedchargegivesyou,givesyou


35

energy.Soitkeepsyouenergizedjustwhenyouwanttogotosleep,anduhsoIthinkthisisproblematic.

Dave: Iswitchedalloftheexteriorlightingonmy,onmyhouse,soI'minthecountrylikeIhaveseenthoselightsfrommyhouse.AndIswitchedthemallfromwhatevertheywerehalogenforthemostparttoredLEDsthatareseaturtlefriendlyandall.AndthenightIdidthattheowlsstartedhangingoutrightnexttothehouse.

Gerald: Ohwow.

Dave: Beforetheywouldnotbeanywherenear,thereis2or3speciesthatarenearby,anditwasprofoundwiththeeffectonwildlifewasnottomentionmyownwhereIcouldwalkoutsideandseethestarsandthingslikethat.

Gerald: Fantasticyeah,thisisagrowingissueuhyouknowalongwithelectromagneticpollutionuh,butaseriousissuebecauseit'sreallynotclearwhat,whatcellphonesandsuch,butit'ssortofclearyouknowsomepeoplehavedonestudiesandthestudies…IhaveacolleagueinSeattlewho’sbeenstudyingthismostofhis,hiscareer.And,andhesaysyouknowthestudiesthatare,thatarefundeduhbythecellphonecompanies,95%ofthemreportnoproblem,butthestudiesthatarefundedbyfoundationsorotherorganizations,uhnotthecellphonecompanies95%ofthemreportseriousproblems.SoIactuallythoughtIwastheonlypersononthefaceoftheeearthwhodecidedtoownnocellphone,butI,Imetanotheroneyesterdayuh,andsoapparentlytherewereatleast2ofuswithoutcellphones(laughs).

Dave: (Laughs)isthisbecauseoftheeffectofEMFSonwaterorcellularbiology,mitochondriaactivation,likewhat'syourspecificconcernthere?

Gerald: Uhwell,the,thecolleagueofminehadstudiedDNAbreaks...

Dave: Uhthereyougo.


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Gerald: Thatoccurfrom...Uhyouknowandsoit'snotthekindofthingthatyouwanttohappen.Uhwehaven’tyethadallthestudytotheeffectsofdifferentwavelengthson,uhonwater.Butyouknowumsincewaterabsorbsmanyofthesewavelengthsyouknowyouputyour,putyourwaterinthemicrowaveoven,anditheatsupandthat'sbecausethesewavelengthsareabsorbedbythewater.Butwedon’tknowwhateachofthosewavelengthsactuallydoestoour,our,ourbody.Umandthisneedstobestudied,it'sreallyimportantto,todothisbecausewellyouknowfor,forobviousreasons…

Dave: Becauselifedependsonit?

Gerald: Ohyeahbecauselifedependsonit,(laughs)it'sterriblyimportant.

Dave: ThereisonemorequestionIwanttoaskyoubeforewecomeupontheendoftheshow,andthatiswell2ofmyquestions,orkindoffinalquestion.ButtheotheroneisIknowthatwhenyoudropthetemperatureofwaterit’seasierforeasywatertoform.Idocryotherapywithlikewithnitrogen.SoIstandinairthat'schilledto260degreesbelowzero,soit’saveryoutercentimeters,somyskingetsarealstrongsignalabouthowcolditis.Itdoesn'tfreeze,butitdropsthetemperatureprettydownfar.AmIdoingsomethingcellularwitheasywaterdoyouthink,Iknowthisisthelandofspeculationhere,oristhismoreaboutsignalingforessentiallymorecaloriesburnedandbrownfatactivationandthingslikethat?

Gerald: Wellthelatteriscertainlypossible,Icouldn’tcomment,but,butIthinkwhatyouaredoingisumyou’re,you’re,youaregeneratingalotofinfraredenergyinthecoreofyourbody,allthemetabolicreactionsdothat.Andwhenyoustandoutsideinthecold,thenyouhaveagradient,ahugegradientoftemperatureontheinsidetotheoutside.Sotheinfraredenergyforthat’sgeneratedinyourbodygoesthroughthebodytotheperforatedandouttowardsthecold.It'spassingthroughyourtissues,andwheninfraredenergypassesthroughyourtissuesitbuildseasywater.Andsoyeahsoyeah,soIthinkthatmightbewhat'sgoingonuh...


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Dave: That’scool,I’veneverheardthatandthatmakessomuchsense.

Gerald: Well,(laughs)it's,it’sinterestingtohaveaconversation,becausesomeofthese,theseissuesuhyouknowsimulatebothofustothinking,thereisnothinglikethinking.

Dave: Right,my,myunusualpathhasledmetobelievethatthereisquiteoften5or6differenteffectsthat’sstuckoneachotherwhenyoureallyfeelsomethingwork.Andyoucanhypothesistheseones,andsomuchofwesternsciencesaroundlookingforsinglevariables.Butalmosteveryproblemthat'severbeenmeaningfultomehasbeenamultivariedproblemwhichmakesitveryhardtostudybecauseyouknow...

Gerald: It'sreallyhardyeah,yeah,that'sreasonforsomebasicscienceifyoucould…Ifyoustartatthefundamentallevelandfigureoutwhat'sgoingon,thenyoucanapplyittothebodyandyouknowthatatleastthat'sperhapsoneofthefactorsthat’sinvolved.

Dave: Yeah,itmightbewhyitworks,butwestillcanmeasurethatitworks,solet'skeeplookingforallthereasonsright,andthat's,that’swhatgetsmeupinthemorning,it'ssoexciting.SpeakingofgettingupinthemorningIwanttoaskyouthequestionIhaveaskedeveryguestontheshow.

Gerald: Cool.

Dave: Andthisisifsomeonecametoyoutomorrowandsaidbasedoneverythingyou’veexperiencedinyourlifenotjustwithscience,butcertainlyincludingthat,ifIwanttokickmoreassateverythingIdo,likeIwanttobebetterateverything,whatarethe3mostimportantpiecesofadviceyouhaveforme,what,whatwouldyousay?

Gerald: Oh,okay,Ithinkmotivationis,isone,butumyouknowthequestionishowyoudevelopmotivation.Peoplewithoutmotivationarereallynotgoingtogetveryfar.Umcuriosityuhanduhyouknowaudacityumthe,theworldaroundisactuallytendstobeprettyconservative,wefeelcomfortablewithwhatweknow.We,ifwearebombardedwith


38

somethingasyousaidearlierthatwecan'texplain,we,wehaveatendencytodismissthat,uhbecauseifwecan'texplainit,itmustnotbetrue.

Dave: Yeah.

Gerald: Yeah,andthisisaveryseriousissueandIthinkit’s…Itaffectsmanyscientistswhowillreflexivelydismissideas.Because,ohifwas…Ifit’sagoodideasomebodywouldhavediscovereditbefore,sodon't,don’t,don’tbotheruswith,withthisidea.Andthatisreallya,a,acriticalone,it'scritical,it'snot,notjustforscience,butuhforotherrealmsandotherdisciplinestoo.

It'suhhavingtheaudacitytogoaheadandfollowyour,yourbeliefsystemwith,withsomereservationyouknowyouhavetolistenand,andhearthefacts.Butumit'soneofthereasonsuhIfeelreallystronglyaboutthisisoneofthereasonswhywe'vecreatedanorganizationcalledtheInstituteforVentureScienceIVS,thewebsiteisivcsci.org.Umwehaven’t,wehaven’tseenduringthepastfewdecadesuhverymanyscientificrevolutionsor,orbreakthroughs.Um100yearsagothereweremanyofthem,youcangobackandtherearefamiliar,familiarnamesofEinsteinandMaxPlunkandyouhavePasteurandthere,thereweresomanythatclearlythatoccurred.Andthequestionisyouknowatthattimetherewasverylittlemoneyforscience,nowthereisalotofmoney,weallcomplainthatthereisnotenoughandit'strue.

Butwehavealotofmoneycomparedtothen,andyetit’sreallyhardifyou,ifyoutrytoputyourfingeronfundamentalscientificbreakthroughs,nottechnological,evenlotsofthoseyouknowiPhonesandsuch.Butfundamentalscientificbreakthroughsthatarethesamelevelasthediscoveryoftheperiodictable,orthesplittingoftheatom,orthestructureofDNAwhichwasIthink60oddyearsago,youcan'tfindthem,it'sreallyhard.Umrevolutions,notpromisedrevolutions,butrevolutionsthathavechangedtheworld.AndIthinkoneofthereasonuhis,isthatit'sdifficultfor,forscientistswith,withfreshideastogaintraction,andthereasonistheonethatwediscussedthat,uhohifthat’struepeoplewouldhavediscoveredit100yearsago.


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Andsowecreatedthisinstitutetochangethat,and,andtheideaisthat

umitworkson2principles,andoneisthatifyouproposethattheearthisroundandeverybodyaroundyouknowsthattheearthisflat.Ifyouputaproposalthentoastandardgrantingagency,you'llbereviewedbytheexpertsnaturally,theexpertsinthefieldandthosearetheflatearthpeople,yourchancesofgettingmoneytopursuewhatyouwantarevanishinglysmall.Allrightandbysomequackifyouhappentogetthemoney,andyoustudyandyougain,uhobtainevenmoreevidencethattheearthisround,umyou'llbelabeledasacrackpad,becausemanypeoplearethreatenedbythat.

Alltheflatearthpeopledon’twantyoutobecorrectbecausemanyofthemaremoreinterestedintheiruhtheircareers,thantheyareinfindingthetruthshallwe,shallwesay.Umand,and,andmaintainingtheircareermeanstheyhavetoberight.Andifyouarerightwithroundearth,theyarewrong,andsotheyarenolongerthekingpinsinthefield,that'sverythreateningtopeople,that'sahumanissue.Andsowegetaroundthatbyactuallytakingroundearthideaslikethatideasthatuhwenottheexperts,uhpeoplewhocanunderstandwhatyouaretalkingabout,butdon’t,don’thavetheskininthegameuhto,to,towanttodismissyouridea.Soweacceptyouridea,wefundyouandthenwelookforothergroupsaroundtheworldwhohaveasimilarvisionthatyouhavethattheearthmayberound.

Andthennextyearwefundthem,andnextyearattheannualmeetingoftheshapeoftheearthsocietysuddenlytheremaybe10or12groupsusing…Eachoneusingadifferentmethoddemonstratingthattheearthisround,andyoucan'tignorethatanymore.And,and,andsothiswethinkis,isthekeytobreakthroughsciencerevolutionifyouwillfundingmultiplegroups,developingacriticalmass.Andwethinkthatit’sgoingtobeabletorestoreuhrevolutionarysciencethewayitwas100yearsago.

Dave: Well,I,uhIammorethanevermotivatedtointroducetoyouintothe,theheroXfoundationandtheXPRIZEpeople.Whattheymanagetodoisputalittlepricefirstonit,soinsteadofjustwritinggrantswhich,


40

whichisapossiblething,theteamthatwins,winsasizablepurseevenifit'sonlyahalfamilliondollars.That'sstillhugeamountofmoneycomparedtothe10milliontheyuseforspaceflight.Wellwhenyouhavethat,thatelementofcompetitionuhitseemstomovethingsforwardin,inareallycoolway.

Gerald: Itcouldbe,itcouldbe,itcouldbe.

Dave: Interesting.

Gerald: Yeah,yeahImeananythingyoucandouhthe,theworldreallyneedsuhfresh,freshthinking.Thereare,there’remanyideasIcomeacrossI'mfamiliarwithmanydifferentscientificfields.Peoplecometomebecausethey,theysenseanopenmindandtheyliketotellmeaboutwhattheyaredoing.It’ssomeotherstufffranklyI,Ithinkit'sflaky,otheris,is,isamazing,Imeantrulyamazing.UhthereisaguyuhwhoImetthepastcoupleofyearswhowasactuallyabletocurecancerwithhishands.UhhisnameisBillBengstonanduhhe’sdoneexperimentson,onmicewithtumors,it'samammarytumor,it's100%fatal.Andheputshis,hishandsaroundthemousethathasbeeninjectedwith,withthetumorandhasalreadydevelopeda,alargemass.

Andherunsthroughinhisminduhkindofalistofpositiveemotionalexperienceshe’shadinhislifeandherunsthroughagainandagainandhiscurerateis100%.Umthisis,thisisthekindofstuffpeopledon’t,don’tknowaboutthis,andofcoursealotofpeoplewillfeelthreatenedbyitbecauseit'syouknowamultibilliondollarbusinessifyouwill,notonlythepharmaceuticals,butalltheresearcherswhowerestudyinguhyouknowchemotherapyandotherkindsof,ofmeasurestocombatcancer.Sothisisentirelydifferent,andumit'snoteasyforhimto,togetresearchmoneyto,topursuethis.

Sothisisjustoneexampleof,ofmanyoutthere,manyreallypromisingideasthatneedtogaintractiontoseeiftheyarereallyasworthwhileassomeofthemappeartobe.It'sgoingtochangetheworld.

Dave: Itabsolutelywillchangetheworld,and,andtherearesomepeoplewho


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appeartohaveprettystrangeabilities.And,andthereisareflexamongtheskepticcommunitywhichisactuallysurprisinglysmallpercentageofpeople,butaveryvocalpercentageofpeople.Uhbutit'sprobably2to5%ofpeoplewhereevery,everythingisglasshalfempty.Buttherealscientistsoutthereuhwhoareactuallydoingrealevidencebasedmedicineversuswhatisonlydoubleblindstudybasedmedicine,whichisn’trealatall,uhintermsof,ofyouknowrealevidencethereismanykindsofthis.

Butwhenyoulookatsomethinglikethat,anytruescienceshouldgothat’s,thatsoundshardtobelieve,butifit'strueit'soneofthemostimportantthingsever,weneedtoseeifit’strue.Whereaswehavethis,thisresponsewhichisyouknowbullshit,thatcannotbe,thereforeanyonewhoeventalksaboutitisaconartistandaquackand…

Gerald: Pseudoscience.

Dave: Yeahandthatkindofreflectivestuffit'sjustfundamentalism,it'snodifferentthanISIS.Andit'sreallybadfortheworldlikeIwouldnothavethat,itisnotokay.

Gerald: Well,goodforyou.

Dave: Let'slookatthatstuff,let'sfigureitoutandsomeofitistotallyselfdeception,that'sgreatlet'sfigureitout.Butifyoudon’tapplysciencetofiguringthatoutandyouapplydogmatofiguringout,youarejerkandI'mtotallyhappytocallyouthat.WellI’llgoovermyselfbackthere,butyougotmejoking.

Gerald: NoI,I,I…BelievemeIhearyou.UhandIyouknowifyouarewellconnectedandyou,youknowsomeuhpeopleof,ofmeanswhowanttoreturnsomethingto,totheworld.ThisistheInstituteforVentureScienceistheperfectplacetodo,we'vejustlaunchedanduhandwearelookingfor,fordonorswho,whowanttoseechangesin,intheworldintheirownlifetime,haveafrontrowseatwherethey,theycanseethingshappening.Thisisagood…


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Dave: I,IthinkIknowagroupofextremelyfinanciallysuccessfulhundredsofmillionstobilliondollarkindofsuccess,peoplewhowillbereallyinterestedinyourwork,andIwillbedoingsomebackchannelintroductionsandthingslikethat.

Gerald: Ohthat’sgood,thankyouverymuch.

Dave: Fortunatelysomeofmycoachingclientshavebeenverysuccessful.Uhandsoletmejustdropafewlittlecommentsintherightplacesandmaybesomethinggreatwillhappen,ifnotIcanmakeafewinteresttopeoplewhocanmaybejustmovetheinitiativeforward.Sothisisimportantworkandthankyoufordoingit,andthankyouforyouraudacity,that'sexactlytherightword.Ireallyappreciateyourwork,andI'mgratefulthatyouareontheshowtoday.

Gerald: Wellthankyouforhavingme,itwasreallyfun,Iappreciateit.

Dave: Haveabeautifulday.

Gerald: Youtoo,takecare.

Dave: Ifyouenjoyedtoday’sshow,andlet'sfaceithowcouldyounotenjoytheshowuhGeraldPollackhas,hasspenthiswholelifedoingthisamazing,amazingwork.Andwhenyoureadhis,hisbookstheyaretechnical,butyourealizethereissomethinghappeningthatsciencedidnotknowabout.Andhe’sjusthadthe,thetenacitytodigin,andhe’sdiscoveredsomefundamentalthingsthatIbelievehaveareallygoodchanceofchangingthewayweunderstandbiology,andchangingtheworld.Soifyouenjoyedtheshowlikethat,Iwouldloveitifyousupportedtheshow.Andthereissomethinginlinewithwhatwetalkedabouttoday,anditistheZenTechskinprotector.

Thisissomethingyouslaponyourcomputer,youslapitonyourphone,youdoitonetimeanditblockssomeofthatbluelightwetalkedaboutthatcomeswithoutinfrared,whichlowerstheamountofstressonthecellmembranesinyoureyes.Anditlowerstheuh,itlowerstheeffectofbluelightonthebody,becauseitfiltersoutsomeofthebluelight.This


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isaprettycoolthing,andit’saonetimethingyoudo,youjustgotobulletproof.com,andsearchforZenTech,andyoucouldpickoneofthesethingsup,andyou'llprobablyfeelthedifferenceinyoursleep,andifyoudon’t,youcanalwayssenditback.

Haveabeautifulday,I'msoexcitedaboutthisinterview,I'msuperchargedbyit,I'mgoingtogogetsomeinfraredlightsandstickthemallovermywaterspray,haveagreatday.

transcript of “304 with gerald pollack” - bulletproof · bulletproof radio podcast #304, gerald...

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