Speaker1: BulletproofRadio.Astateofhighperformance.

DaveAsprey: HeyitsDaveAspreywithBulletproofradio.EverynowandthenIhavejustthe

perfectinterviewhappen.Whenithappens,IcanfeelitwhenI'mdoingtheinterview,andIwanttoshareitwithyou.Theoddsareprettyhighthatyouhaven'theardthisepisode.Iworkedwiththeteamheretoremastertheinterview,becauseitwasoneofthemostpopular,mostimpactfulones.I'mre-releasingitasaspecialeditionforyou.Thishasaseparatebenefitforyou,becauseI'musingsomeofthistimerightnowtofinishthefinaleditsonthebrandnewbookaboutmitochondria.I'mabouttotellyouthenameofitandwhereyoucanfindinformationonit.Thisbookiscool.Itsgotsomanyotherthingsinit,I'mgoingtofinisheditingthechapterstomeetmydeadlineandI'mofferingtoyourightnowoneofthemostimpactfulinterviewsI'veeverdone.Ithinkyou'llreallyenjoythis.

Today'scoolfactofthedayisthathumanshaveevolvedtohavelargerskullsandwe'dliketothinkanyway,smarterbrains.Itsseemslikeaprettygoodidea,exceptforthewayyourskullmakesroomforyourlargerbrainisbyusinglessbonehereinyourjaw.Whatthatmeansisitsharderforustoeattoughfood,whichisfine,becausethat'swhywehaverib-eye.Ontopofthatourteethhavestayedthesamesize,eventhoughourjawsaresmaller,andthat'soneofthereasonsthatyoucangetimpactedwisdomteeth,justbecauseyourbrain'stoobig.Youcanalsosayitsbecauseyourmom,oryourgrandmother,ategrains,whichcanalsoimpactionofyourteeth.

Ifyou'rearegularlisteneryou'veheardmesharemylistoftop10biohacks.Letstalkaboutnumber9.Buttonhacksforthebulletproofmind.Itmaysoundweird,buthangingupsidedownisagreatwaytohackyourbrain.Regularlyinvertingtrainsyourbraincapillaries,makingthemstrongerandmorecapabletobringoxygentoyoubrain,itsprettystraightforward.Moreoxygeninthebrainmeansbetterperformance.

Igetmydailystretchandmydoseofoxygenwithmyteeterinversiontable,whichissoessentialforoptimalfocus,concentration,andmentalenergy.Thatfullbodystretchelongatesthespineandtakesthepressureoffthediscssotheycanplumpbackup.Lesspressuremeanslesspain.Ifyouhavebackpain,evenifyou'vebeenluckenoughtoavoiditsofar,youreallywantateetertoinverteverydaytokeepyourbackandjointsfeelinggreat.Forover35yearsteeterhassetthestandardforqualityinversionequipmentyoucantrust.MyfriendsoveratteeterhavedecidedtoshowsomelovetoBulletprooflisteners.

Foralimitedtimeyoucangettheteeterinversiontablewiththebonusaccessories,andafreepairofgravitybootssoyoucaninvertathomeortakethebootswithyoutothegym.Togetthisdeal,whichisasavingsofover138bucks,gotogetteeter.com/bulletproof,you'llalsogetfreeshipping,anda60daymoneybackguarantee,andfreereturns.There'sabsolutelynoriskforyoutotryitout.Rememberyoucanonlygettheteeterwithbonusaccessoriesandafreepairofgravitybootsbygoingtogetteeter.com/bulletproof.G-E-T-T-E-E-T-E-R,

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.com/bulletproof.Checkitout.

Today'sguesthasbeenontheshowquiteawhileaback,anditsmygreatpleasuretointroduceaguywhoIreallyconsideragroundbreakingexerciseguy.ThisisDr.DougMcGuff.He'sanERdoctor,he'sanexercisegeek,andaweightlifter.He'soneofthosefewERdoctorswhohappenstohavehisowngym,calledUltimateExercise.He'soneoftheauthorsofBodybyScience,alongwithJohnLittle.Lookingatwhathighintensitytrainingdoesforyou.I'veusedhistechniquesforaverylongtimetosupportmyownlifestyle,whichisminimalamountsofexerciseformaximumgain.Dougdoesanamazingjobofhelpingpeopleunderstandwhatthey'redoingfromanexerciseperspective.Itsbeenmorethan100episodesbackwhenDougwason.We'vemetinpersonacoupletimes,andDougI'mjuststokedtohaveyoubackontheshow.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Awesome.I'mreallygladtobehere.Hey,mywisdomteeth,theycameinnoproblem.Ithinkmybrainmustbetoosmall.

DaveAsprey: That'stoofunny.Don'thavewisdomteethproblems?Itsbecauseyou'redumb,thatshouldbetheheadline.

Dr.DougMcGuff: [inaudible00:04:18]hasastudymorethanmostpeople,butyouknowohwell.

DaveAsprey: Youdidsomethingrightbecauseyou'vecomeupwithsomenewstuff.ThereasonthatIwantedtocatchupwithyou,asidejusttogetanupdatebecauseIknowyou'reconstantlyresearchingthisstuff,butyou'vebeenlookingatmyokines.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Yeah,itskindofmynewobsessionthesedays.Icertainlydidn'tcomeupwithit,Istumbledacrosssomeoftheresearchaboutit.TherewerealwaysthesethingsthatIjustbelievedbutcouldnotprove.Themyokinesisstartingtokindoffillinalittlebitofthatblackboxforme.

DaveAsprey: Whattheheckisamyokine?I'msureeveryonedrivingrightnowiswonderingwhatisthis?

Dr.DougMcGuff: Yeah.Amyokineisbasicallyjustachemicalsignaler.Themoregeneralizedtermforthatkindofmoleculeiscalledacytokine.Thereareallkindsofcytokinesthatdochemicalsignaling,endocrinesignalingfromoneorgantoanother,orparacrinesignalingwithinasignalorgantodirectthebodyastowhatitshouldbedoingatanygivenmoment.

Well,they'verecentlydiscoveredthatskeletalmuscleisnotjustthisreallygreattissuethatcontracts,makesusstrong,andabletomove.Itsactuallyoneofourlargestendocrineorgansinourbodyanditsignalstoothertissuesinourbodyinaverymeaningfulway.ArtDeVany,alongtimeago,madementionofthisconcept,thatthetissuesinyourbodydon'tnecessarilyallworktogetherinthisharmoniousfashionnecessarily.Inalotofwaysbodytissuescompetewitheachother.Alotofthiscompetitiontakesplacethroughcytokines.Specifically,bodyfatandmuscle

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tissuehavecytokines,thesesignalinghormones,thatworkinoppositionandincompetitionwitheachother.Howyoueatandhowyouexercisecangivethecompetitiveadvantagetoonesideortheother,suchthatreachingoptimalhealth,optimalbodycomposition,evenoptimalneurologicalfunctioning,canbeaugmentedbytippingthebalanceinfavorofoneversestheother.

DaveAsprey: Whataresomeofthemostfamousmyokines?Iknowalotofcytokines.ImonitorinflammationinalotofthebiohacksintheBulletproofdietbookarearound,ohlookyoucanlowerthisspecificinflammatorythingwiththisnutritionalintervention,orsleep,orstress.Myokinesareasubcategoryofcytokines,correct?

Dr.DougMcGuff: Correct.Mostofthemyokinesthathavebeenstudiedareactuallycytokinesthathaveananti-inflammatoryeffect.Muchofthemyokineswillhaveananti-inflammatoryeffectthatdirectlyopposestheinflammatoryeffectsofalotoftheinflammatorycytokines.Probablythelongestknownandmostdeeplyunderstoodmyokine,isonecalledinterleukin6.Thatmyokineisliberatedfromcontractingskeletalmuscle,particularlywhenitsdoinghighintensitywork,butprettymuchinanysortofmuscularactivityitisreleasedtosomedegree.Itisactually,astheintensityofexerciserises,itsreleasedinanexponentiallygreaterdegreebecauseitisdonebyanamplificationcascade.Meaningthatwhenitstriggered,2moleculeswilltrigger4molecules,and4moleculeswilltrigger8,andthatjustamplifiesveryquickly.

DaveAsprey: That'sabeautifulbiohackbecausewhatyou'resayingthenisbymodifyingtheintensityofyourexercise,you'rebasicallyexponentiallyincreasingtheamountofananti-inflammatorysubstanceinthebody?

Dr.DougMcGuff: Correct.

DaveAsprey: Wow.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Ithasthisanti-inflammatoryeffect,butitalsohasneatbiochemicaleffects.Itveryaggressivelyup-regulatestheuptakeofglucoseintothemusclecell,andglucoseutilization,andglycogenmobilization.Italsorampsupglycolysis,somobilizationoffattyacidfromstoredbodyfat.Itsrampingthroughthecell,thoroughthemitochondriatodobetaoxidationoffattyacids.Allofthatisaugmentedandrampedupbyinterleukin6.Otherthingsthatitdoes,itstimulatesthereleaseofnitricoxide,whichcausesvasodilatation,increasebloodflowintotheskeletalmuscle,buthasamorelongtermeffectofmodulatingbloodpressuretowardsmoreoptimallevels.Itactuallyactsasaleptinsurrogatetoincreaseinsulinsensitivity.Justthis1myokinehassomanybeneficialeffectsthatwe'relookingfor.That'sthethingthatIalwaysintrinsicallyfeltabouthighintensitystrengthtraining,isthatitwassomuchgreaterthanthesumofitsparts.Thereseemtobesomethingmoregoingonintermsofbodycompositionthencouldbeaccountedforsimplybytheenergythatitused.

DaveAsprey: Youmeanexerciseisn'tjusttoburncalories?

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Dr.DougMcGuff: Yeah,no.

DaveAsprey: Thisisfascinatingbecausenitricoxidehasbeen,reallyidentifiedasasignaling

moleculeinthebodythatwedidn'tknowthatmuchabouteven,wouldyousay5yearsago?Asamajorsignaler?Itjustsortofpoppedup.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Yeah.Letssee,interleukin6,itsprobablybeenknownaboutandsomeresearchdoneonitforthepast10years.

DaveAsprey: Yeah.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Theinterestinithasgoneupexponentially.Theneatthingforme,asanexercisegeekis,youknowIstarteddoingthisstuffbackinthe'70s,soI'vealwaysbeenanexercisegeekoverthelongspanoftime.WhatI'venoticedisthatallthemajoradvancementsinexercisephysiologydon'tcomeoutofexercisephysiology,theycomeyouofcellbiology,andbiochemistry.

DaveAsprey: Amen.Yes.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Freakinggeeksthathaveneverexercisedintheirwholelife.Whentheyfindsomethingthat'srelevanttoexercise,thenyoureallygotsomething.There'sverylittlethatcomesoutofexercisephysiologyliteraturethatreallyhasaneffectorchangesanythingatall.Whenitcomesfromsomebiochemgeek,manyou'reontosomethingbig.

DaveAsprey: Everythingthatyoujustsaid,probably,inmyexperienceI'mnotcertainthatitappliestomuscles,althoughIthinkitsprettydarnlikelyinmyexperience,butyoufocusedonthatmore.AllofthebraintrainingandcognitivestuffthatI'veworkedon,thesameexactstatementaboutwhenyouchangesomethingatthecellularlevel,everythingaboveit,includingthewayyouthink,andyourabilitytopayattention,allofthatchanges.I'mgoingtosendyou,IthinkitsSeptember10thI'llhavemyearlythings,anewmitochondrialthing,we'recallingthewholebodynootropic,calledunfairadvantage.

ItsthesinglemostexcitingnewsupplementI'vedone,asimportanttomyownperformancenowasBulletproofcoffee,thatup-regulatesyourmitochondria.Basicallyyoucanfeelitwithin5minutesoftakingitinabigway.I'mpredictingthere'llbenewworldrecordssetfrompeopleusingthisstuff,becausejustlikeyousaid.Whathappenswhenyoufixsomethingatthecelllevel,itgoesthroughoutthebody,I'vehonestlyneverbeenmoreexcited.I'llsendyouaboxofthisstuff,itsnotevenavailableforpre-orderyet,whenitcomesout,everyone'sgoingtotalkaboutit.

Dr.DougMcGuff: That'scool.Here'sanotherthingaboutthisinterleukin6,itisananti-inflammatorymolecule,butitsnotjusttheeffectofthemolecule,itstheeffectofitsreceptors.Itsnotonlyanti-inflammatory,itspro-inflammatoryintermsofitsreceptors.If

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you'regeneratinglotsofinterleukin6,thenyouup-regulateinterleukin6receptorsensitivity.Whenthathappens,ithasthatpro-inflammatoryeffectof,actuallyI'msayingitbackwards.Moreinterleukin6,youdownregulatethereceptors.Thefewerreceptorsyouhave,thelessinflammationyougenerate.

DaveAsprey: Ohwow.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Notonlyisthemoleculeanti-inflammatory,thedownregulationofitsreceptorsisanti-inflammatory.Itskindofadouble-whammywiththeproductionofthesecytokines.

DaveAsprey: I'minherentlyalazyguy,Icallitstrategiclaziness.WhereI'mnotlazybecauseIdon'twanttodothework,IjustwanttodotheworkfastersoIcandosomethingelsethat'smoreimportant.Couldn'tIjustgetanIL-6nasalspray,orinjectthestuff,downregulatemyreceptorsandjustnotevenpickupsomethingheavy?

Dr.DougMcGuff: Youknow,I'mbettingthattherearepharmaceuticalcompaniesworkingonthatrightnow.Nowtherearegeneticmanipulationsthatcanbedonetoincreaseordecreaseyourproduction.Alotoftheresearchthat'sbeendoneonhowinterleukin6isbasedontakingitawayfromexperimentalanimals.Thewaytheydothatisbygeneticmanipulationthatproducesaninterleukin6knockoutgene.

DaveAsprey: Wow.

Dr.DougMcGuff: TheDNAisjustabigseriesofbases,cytosine,adenine,guanine,anditsthislittlecode,andifyouframeshiftthecodealittlebit,whatevertranscribesthatparticulargenewillnowbecomegarglednonsense.Thentheanimaldoesn'thaveinterleukin6anymore,andtheninananimaldevoidorseverelyhamperedintheproductionofthathormone,youcanfigureoutexactlywhatitsdoing.

DaveAsprey: Wow.Whataboutgutbacteria?DotheymakeIL-6?Isthereagutbiomecomponenttothiswholething?

Dr.DougMcGuff: ThatIdon'tknow.That'smyotherbigfascinationthatI'mwaybehindthecurveon,isthewholeintestinalmicrobiome.I'mcertainthatishassomesortofinteraction,butI'venotreallytweazedthatoutofanythingthatI'vereadsofar.LikeIsaid,I'vejustkindofscratchingthesurfaceofthisstuff,butitsprettycoolstuff.

DaveAsprey: ItsremarkablehowmanyofthedifferentcytokinesaresomewaymanufacturedbythegutbacteriatothepointthatintheresearchthatI'vebeenworkingon,ontheBulletproofdietbook,theselittlebastards,someofthemaregoodforyoubutalotofthemarethere,they'rehackingyoursystem.Yourbodyhasitsownregulatorysystemforinflammation,andthentheselittlethingssitinthereandsay,ohwewantedyoutobemoreinflamedorlessinflamedforourownnefarioususes,whichismostlykeepingtheirlifesupportsystemalive.Inintriguedtoseewhathappenswhenwelookatbothhighintensityexerciseplusgutbiome.Istheresomegroupofpeoplewhoworkoutreallyhardbuthaveabadgutbiome,andeitheritdoesn't

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workbecause...thatwasmyexperience,anhourandahalfadayofheavyliftingforhalfofitandheavycardiofortheotherhalf.Icouldn'tloseweight,grantedIwasovertraininglikecrazy,butIweighed300poundsandIwasdesperate.I'mcertain,inretrospect,thatmygutbiomewasapartofthewholeequation.

Dr.DougMcGuff: YeahandIthinkthat'sprobablygoingtoturnouttobetrue.It'llprobablybetrueinafeedforwardkindofway.Inthesensethat,ifyou'redoingpropertraininganditshighintensity,anditsbriefenough,andyoushouldbeabletorecoverfromit.Ifyou'reoneofthesepeoplewhohastroublewithrecoveryoryou'rejusttotallyhammeredfor2daysafteraworkout,I'mhighlysuspiciousthattheanswermightbethatsomehowyourgutbiomeisdisrupted.Inthefeedforwardmechanism,Ithinkthedeliveryofanappropriateexercisestimulusmayreleasethosemyokinesinsuchawaythatdrivesbehaviortowardsreestablishingabettergutflora.Ithinkthatbothcanbenefittheother,andbothcanharmtheother,dependingonwhatyou'redoing.Ithinkifyou'resomeonewho'sgoingtochronicallyover-train,thatclearlygutinflammationfromischemia,relatedtoovertrainingmarathonrunners,canreallydisruptyourgutbiome,andinthatprocessturnyouintosomeonethat'sjustapoorexcersierandpoorrecoverer.

DaveAsprey: Yeah.Mylittlememorytricklebookmarkwasaccurate,Ijustpulleditup.There'sastudyfromactually10yearsago,wheretheywerelookingattheeffectofMCTs,thestuffinbrainoctaneandtheMCT,thatwhenyoucombinethatwithabacterialtoxin,inotherwordsyouhavebadbacteriainthegut,thatonlyinthatcaseinratsthatMCTchangesthesecretionofinterleukin6.Theprimarymyokinethatwe'retalkingabout.There'saninterestingthingfromwhatyoueatbasedonthetoxinsmadebywhat'sgrowinginyourgut,changesyourinflammatoryprofile,basicallyhowyourespondtoit.Itssocomplex,anditssoamazing,thatwhatyou'retalkingabout,whichiswe'lljustdownregulateyourreceptorsbyliftingheavythingssometimes.Itseemslikeanelegantwaytogetaroundalotofthiscomplexity.Evenifyouhaveaproblemwithyourgutbacteria,you'restillgettinglessofthisproblem.

Dr.DougMcGuff: YeahthemoreIreadonthis,that'sthecoolthingaboutallthiscomplexity.Allthatcomplexityandallthesefeedbackloopsseemtobenefitusbymakingwhatwehavetodoverysimple.Allthatcomplexityandallthatadaptabilitymeansthatwejusthavetohaveafewgrossheuristicstooperatewithin,inordertooptimizeeverything.Allthecomplexityofthatwilltakecareofitforus.

DaveAsprey: Dougthat'soneofthethingsIreallylikeaboutyourperspective.Youdiginwaymorethanmostpeoplewouldbecauseyou'reanexercisegeek,andbecauseyouhavealittlebitoftrainingthatwentintoyourmedicaldegree.Youhavethiswayofthinking,andthisbodyofknowledge.You'vegoneinatthatlevelonexercisewhichletsyoumakethosebasicheuristics.OneofthequestionsI'msurepeoplehavegottobeaskingthemselves,you'vetalkedaboutthebenefitsofliftingheavythingstoupregulatetheproductionofIL-6anddownregulatethenumberofreceptorsyouhavesoyou'llhavelessinflammation,buthowoftendoyouhavetodoit?

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Dr.DougMcGuff: Wellthatkindofdependsupontheindividualandtherecoverystatusatanypointintime.Ifsomeoneisinterestedinoptimizingtheirresults,youreallydon'thavetodoitthatoften.OvertimeI'vereally,Ireallylikeworkingout,andIwilldoitasmuchasIcangetawaywith,eventhoughI'mahugeadvocateofappropriaterecoveryanddoingverybriefworkoutsinfrequently.Toansweryourquestion,Ithinkitisalways,inexercise,agreatideatostriveforaminimaleffectivedose,becauseexerciseispro-inflammatory.Okay,ifyou'reapersonthatisnotlivingliferight,noteatingright,burningatbothendsofthecandleallthetime,youhavetounderstandthattheexerciseyou'redoing,atleastintheacutephase,isaddinganacuteinflammatoryeventontoachronicinflammatorystate.

Whenyou'remakingthistransitionfrom,letssayyou'refinallygoingtosay,lookI'mgoingtotakecareofmyself,I'mgoingtoliveliferight.Itsmostimportantforthatpersontodoexerciseinawaythatinvokesapro-inflammatorystate,butdoesitinawaythatallowsyoutomakethattransitionwithoutchronicallyheapingmoreandmorestressandinflammationontoachronicallystressedandinflamedbody.Minimaleffectivedoseisagreatwaytodothat.Asa52year-oldguy,whohasnomajorinjuriesfromtrainingoverthelongerterm,itsalsoimportantbecausereallywhatyoustarttofindoutisthatyouexperimentwithallthesedifferentwaysoftrainingisthatalltheextracrapthatIdidthroughtheyearsdidn'tmakeadifference.ActuallythebestresultscamewhenItruncatedandminimizedmytrainingandreallypaidattentiontorecoveryanddiet.Thingsontherecoverysideoftheequation.

DaveAsprey: Yeah.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Imeanyoucangetthehammerandpoundtheshitoutofthenail,butifyoureallytunetherecoverysideoftheequation,youdon'thavetohammer,andhammer,andhammer.Thetrainingbecomesanailgun,notahammer.

DaveAsprey: Whatabeautifulanalogy.IwishsomeonehadtoldmethatwhenIwas20atthegym,6,7,daysaweek.Itwasexactlywhatyouweredescribing.Ididn'tunderstandyoushouldrecoverlikeademon,notexerciselikeademon.

Dr.DougMcGuff: YouknowandIdon'tknowifayoungerguywilleverylistentothat.Somuchofhavingtobetoughinyouryouth,justhastodowiththefactthatyou'rejustfuckingstupid.

DaveAsprey: Yeah.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Andyoujustneedtobetoughbecauseyou'restupid,untilyougettohaveaccumulatedenoughlumpstoactuallybecomesmart.

DaveAsprey: YouknowI'vegota5year-oldboy,and7year-oldgirl,andIgottosaymaybethefactthathe'saboy,butI'lltellhimitsgoingtohurtifyoudothat.Thenhelooksatyouanddoesitanyway,likewellitsalearningexperience.We'vegotiodineforthatorwhateveritis.Itsfunnybecauseitcontinuesandweknowtheprefrontal

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cortexreallyfinishes,kindofsolidifiesaround24,somewherebetween23and24.Duringthattime,there'sawholesetofthesebehaviorsthataresubconsciousthatcomeout.

Ibeatthecrapoutofmybody,Ihaveascrewinmykneeand3kneesurgeriesbeforeIwasoldenoughtohavemyprefrontalcortexallthewayin.BecauseIwouldn'tlistentomybody,alsoIwasdoingthingsthatweresupposedtobegoodformethatjustsimplyweren't.That'soneofmymotivationsforwhatIdonow,whydon'twejustdowhatworksbecauseIwasstrategicallylazywhenIwasunder23.IfIdon'thavetodoit,Idon'twanttodoit.IthoughtIhadtodothingsthatwereactuallybadforme.That'skindofanobnoxiousthing.

You'resayingthoughthatyouliketoexercise?Youworkoutasmuchasyoucangetawaywith.Igetclientslikethat,whenIdocoaching.WiththeBulletproofdietbookcomingout,itsgettingharderandhardertodoone-on-onecoaching,butIstillmakesometimeforthis.Thereareoftentimes,liketypeAcareerCEOs,celebritytypes,they'reworkingreally,reallyhard.Notenoughsleep,frequenttravel,theyalsowanttoIronManathletes.Theywanttodosomeseriouslyintensestuff,andthenyoulookattheirbloodpanelsandthey'reclearly,CRPshigh,they'reHRV,heartratevariability,isallnotright.Classicalovertraining.Thenyoutellthem,youneedtobackoffabit,andthentheysortoflookatyoulikethey'regoingtocry,Ineedmyexerciseitmakesmefeelgood.There'ssomeopioidaddictionthere,butthere'sacomfortablelinebetweenhavingtobeatyourselfupeverysingleday,wheredoyoudrawthatline?Forpeoplewhowanttoexercisemoreatheminimumeffectivedose?Howdoyouknowifitstoomuch?

Dr.DougMcGuff: Well,thewayItellpeopletoassessitinthemselvesis,ifsomethingcomesupinyourdaytodaylife,onadaywhereyou'rescheduledtoworkout,andifsomethinginterfereswiththatandyouhavetocancelitandmoveittoanotherday,ifitfreaksyouout,orifitpissesyouoff,orifitruinsyourdayandyou'reinafoulmoodtherestoftheday,oryoucan'tstopthinkingaboutit,you'redoingtoomuch.ThatistheweirdthingabouttheovertrainingsyndromeisitisaformofOCD.ItsliketellingsomeonewithOCD,stopflickingthelightswitchmanitsnotgoodforyou.Wellyeah,butiftheydon'tthey'regoingtofeelenormousangstoverit.Thatangstisthesignalthatyou'rethere.

ThisiswhyIlikeyourconceptofstrategiclaziness,becausethat'swhatweevolvedoutof.Wewantthemostresultsfortheleasteffort,becauseintheevolutionaryenvironmentfromwhichourbodiesevolvedoutof,thatwasanabsolutenecessitybecausetherewasreallyseverescarcity.Nowintheageof,themodernagewherecapitalismhasprovided[inaudible00:26:11]abundance,wegotamismatchofthat.Ifindthatamongstharddrivingexecutivetypesthatyouservice,isthiswholeJohnnyQuestmentality.ThatI'mgoingtowork16hoursaday,I'mgoingtotravelallovertheworld,andI'mgoingtorunmarathons,doultraenduranceevents,andclimbmountains,andyouknowallthisJohnnyQuestcrap.

Intheend,whatyouendupfiguringoutisinordertobesuperhuman,youhaveto

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realizethatyou'reonlyhuman.Whenyouhaveaccountedforthat,andfollowedthebiologicalimperativetocoverandtakecareofyourselfwiththeappropriatenutrition,andthecorrectlymodulatedexercise,itsthenandonlythenthatyoureallydofeelsuperhuman.Ithinkthat'sabig,bigkeyinallofthis.Itsahardthingtogettheseharddrivingindividualstounderstand.

DaveAsprey: ItsreallysomethingIdidn'tunderstand,butresilienceisitselfapractice.Noone'slike,goodjobDave,youwerereallyresilient,itslikeyouwerestrong,andyoudidn'tgiveup.Bottomlineis,givingupisonething,decidingthatyou'vehadenoughandthatyouneedtorecovernow,sothatyoucangetupagainthenextdayanddoitover,isjustadifferentskill.Itsnotonethatwepraise,itsnotonethatwetrain,anditsnotonereallythatyou'relikelytoknowabout,unlessyou'vehitthewallreally,really,hardafewtimes.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Yeah.IjustwaswatchingaVimeoclip,andtheinterestingthingis...youtalkaboutanavyseal,orspecialforcestypepeople,thosepeopleareputunderhugeamountofstress.Bothasaweedingoutprocess,butalsoasstressinoculationtomakethem.

DaveAsprey: Yes.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Whattheyfoundisinalloftheirstressinoculationtraining,theonethingthatdecreasedthewashoutrateatBUD/Sfrom38downto23%wasonesimplething.Thatwastoteachcombatbreathing,whichisameditativeformofbreathing,wherewhenyou'refreakingoutandyouneedtoslowyourheartratedown.Becauseonceyourheartrategoesaboveabout145,motorcontrolanddecisionmakingcapacitygoestocrap.Whattheydidwas,theytaughttheseguyshowtomeditate,andhowtobreathe.4secondsin,hold4seconds,4secondsout.

DaveAsprey: Theboxbreathe.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Yes.Theboxbreathetraining,andlearninghowtomediate,thataloneprovedmorevaluable,intermsofstressinoculation,andmakingitthroughtheBUD/Scoursethanalltheothermoretraditionalstressinoculationtechniquesthattheyhaddone.Stressinoculationisagoodthing,anditsgoodtochallengeourselvesanddobigthings,butagainthatwholerealizingyou'reonlyhumantobecomesuperhumanisimportant.Thereareelementsofself-carethatmakeyouabletohandlethosestress-ablemoments.Asanemergencyphysician,I'vehada25careerinthisincludingresidency,so22naught,butalongcareerinemergencymedicine.AsgoingfromanewERdoctoanoldERdoc,onethingI'vereallycometorealizeisthattheanswertodealingwiththisuncontrolledpace,overwhelmingpace,andsickpeopleanddyingpeople,isnottogetyourselfallampeduponRedBullsandallhypedupandcrazy.You'vegottohaveanabilitytocalmyourself,tobetheeyeofthestorminordertofunctiontrulywell.

Nowyoucankindofgetyourselfthroughitwhenyou'renotasgoodasyoushouldbe,bydrinkingRedBullsandgoingapecrazy,butthebetterwayistohavethat

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kindofcalm.

DaveAsprey: Itsfunnyyoumentionthemedicalsideofthings.I'velearnedthosemeditativebreathingtechniquesandallthe40yearsofzenneurofeedbackandallthatsortofstuff.I'velearnedtocalmmyselfevenatinanER,whichusetobealwaysterrifying.Imadeacommitmenttrainingmykidsthesameway.BothmykidsplaytheHeartMathgame,theinnerbalancesensor,theyclipthelittlethingon.

Justlastnight,Anna,who's7,wasrunningandshetrippedonastairandlanded,skinnedall4jointsyoucanskinat1time.Screamed,andyouknowitwasadisaster.Shesatupandliterallydid4fullslowin,slowoutbreaths,stoppedcrying,pickedherselfanddecidedthatshewantedtogointotheforestbeforewecleanedupherwounds.Iwasjustflabbergastedtoseethis.Justteachingthosebasicskills.WhatwouldhappenintheERifeveryonewhocamein,withwhateverkindofcriticalinjurytheyhave,knewhowtobreathelikethat?Doyouthinkmorepeoplewouldsurvive?Idon'twanttoputyouonthespot,Iknowyouhavelicensingissuesorwhatever.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Wellyeah,no,you'retalkingaboutsurviving.Ikindofsuspectthatitmightbe,becauseonethingthatwefoundisthatincriticalcarepatients,someonethatisabadmulti-trauma,orsomeonewithbadsepsisthatyouhavetoputontheventilator,thatifyoudon'tprovideappropriatepaincontrolandanalgesics,thattheirmortalityisactuallysignificantlyhigher.Ifyouhaveabigdumpingofcatecholaminesduringanacuteinjuryorillness,yoursurvivalisactuallyworse.Wetrytomanagethatpharmacologically,andthroughmedicalintervention,butnowthatyouaskthequestion,someonethatwasabletoaccesstheirownphysiology,likeinmyopinioneveryhumanbeingshouldbetaughttodo.

DaveAsprey: Yes.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Iftheywereabletodothat,Ithinkitcouldmakearealdifference.

DaveAsprey: Probablynotinsomecases.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Peoplethatareunderacutestress.Theirabilitytomanagetheirownphysiologycansavetheirlifeinacriticalsituation,butcertainlyIthinkitcanalsodiminishthelikelihoodofdevelopingPTSDduringastressfulevent,orsomething.Becauseallofthese...youknowthisbigdumpofcatecholamines,andinflammatorycytokines,Ithinkhasalongtermeffectforsettingthestageforthosesortofbadthings,soyeah.I'venotthoughtthisoutaheadoftimebeforeyouaskedme,butwhenyouaskedmethatIthinkyeah.

DaveAsprey: Youknowwhatyou'redoing,becauseaccordingtomyfriendsoverattheHeartMathInstitute,I'manadvisorforHeartMathandjustafriendandsupporteroftheirkindoftechnology,they'velookedatthat.PeoplewhoaretrainedinheartratevariabilitybeforetheygointocombatarelesslikelytogetPTSD,becausetheycangetoutoffightorflight.Itsfunnythatyoupredictedthatbasedonyour

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knowledgefromER,infactthat'sstartlingthatyoudid.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Funnythatyouaskedmethat,becausenowwhenIthinkbackaboutit...rightnowIwork,thepast20yearsI'veworkedinahighvolume,highacuitycommunityemergencydepartment.WhenIwasinresidencyandwerotatedamongstdifferentbighospitals,atthechildren'shospitaltheyhadaspecialistcalledaChildLifeSpecialist.Permyrecollection,whenthechildrenwereinpainfulorstressfulsituations,theywouldcomeinandtheywouldactuallytalkthemthroughbreathingexercisesandthingsforselfcalming,anditreallydidmakeasignificantdifference.Ithinkwedothisforkids,whydon'twedothisforeveryone,andforadults?That'sprobablysomethingthatcouldbeappliedintheemergencymedicinesettingthatwouldbebeneficialforalotofpeople.Itellyou,Igotthesensethatonanygivenshiftonanygivenday,40%ofwhatIseeisdrivenlargelybyanxietystates.

DaveAsprey: Nohere'sanoddquestion,andthenwe'llgobacktosomeoftheotherexerciserelatedstuff,couldyousetaventilatortodoboxbreathing?

Dr.DougMcGuff: Yeah,youcan.

DaveAsprey: Doesitcalmpeopledown?

Dr.DougMcGuff: Youknow,Idon'tknow.

DaveAsprey: I'msointrigued.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Youcansetaventilator,mostlywhatwemanipulateventilatorsettingsforistodo3things.Oneistocontrolthelevelofcarbondioxidethat'scirculatinginthebloodbyhowwellyou'reblowingoffcarbondioxide,towhatextent.Theotheristoeffectoxygenationoftheblood,andthirdistoprovidepressuresupportforwhenthelungisill,whenitsgotfluidthat'scausingthealveolitocollapseandthingsofthatnature.Mostlytheventilatoristweakedtooptimizeacid/basebalanceintheblood,andtooptimizecardiacoutput.Toansweryourquestion,somecriticalcarespecialistthat'sveryadeptatmanipulating-youcould.

DaveAsprey: Wow,I'msointrigued.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Whatwe'refindingwithventilatorsettingsis,Imean10yearsagowewouldrunmuchhighertidalvolumesandrespiratoryratesthanwedonowadays.Nowthetidalvolumeisgonedownsignificantlyandthelevelofoxygenation,andrespiratoryrateshavebeenmodulatedsomewhat.Iguessinsomesortofsensethatwouldbetheventilatorversionofthatkindofapproach.

DaveAsprey: Letstakethatbacktoexercise.Giventhatyouknowsomuchaboutbloodgasmixes,morethananyonewithadegreeinexercisephysiologyislikelyto,haveyouappliedthattoexercisinginoxygentents,highaltitudevelocitytraining,liftingheavythingswithoutanyair,stufflikethat?

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Dr.DougMcGuff: No,notreally.Thethingwithbreathingandexerciseisthesamethingthatwe

weretalkingaboutearlierwiththecomplexityofmyokinesandgutbacteriaandhowallthestuffbeatsbackisthatifyou'redoingreallyhardwork,thebestventilatorymechanismthatyoucanuseistheonethatyoudon'tthinkabout.Becauseitauto-regulatesverywell.Whenyou'redoinghard,highintensityexercise,youstarttogeneratealacticacid,theproductionoflacticacid.TheautomaticresponseisthatpHisreceivedbythechemo-receptorsinyourcarotidarteriesandaroundyourbrainstem,automaticallyregulatesyourrespiratoryvolumeandratetoblowoffcarbondioxide,toaffectcarboxylicacidinyourbloodstream,tonormalizethepHrelativetothelacticaciddoses.Thatkindofauto-regulates.Goahead,itlookslikeyou'regoingtoasksomething.

DaveAsprey: There'sawholeschooloftraining,mostlyforenduranceguys,aroundlivehightrainlow,orviceversa,dependingonstuff.I'vebeenforthepastalmostmonthorsogettingmybloodoxygenlevels,veryshort,intermittentphasesdownintothehigh70sforupto6minutesatatime.I'minthemiddleofbasicallytryingtoraisemyEPOlevelsnaturallyasananti-agingtechnique.I'venoticedhugedifferencesinhowIfeelafterjustafewdaysofthat.Itsshowntoimproveathleticperformance.Itsfascinatingtolookathighintensityexposurestoreallyheavyexercise,whichyoujustfiguredoutwithsomeofthelatestresearchwe'redoing,whatitsdoingtomyokinesandthenumberofmyokinesyouhave.Itappearsyoucandothesamethingwithcold,coldthermogenesis,thesamethingwithbloodgaslevels.There'sallsortsofwaystoreachintothebodyandgiveitastrongsignaltomakeitchange,eventhoughthat'sasignalthatmightneverhavereallyoccurredformostpeopleinanormalwayofliving.I'mintriguedthatwe'regoingtofindalotmoreinthere.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Yeah,oxygenisawholedifferentballofwaxthencarbondioxidemonitoringforthebody.Howoxygenismovedaroundthebodyisthroughhemoglobin,whichisareallycoolmolecule,itsatetramer.Ithas4bindingsitesperoxygen.Itchangesitschemicalshapeasitbindsoxygen.Ifyouhaveatetramerwith4bindingsites,andyoubind1oxygen,theremaining3bindingsitesattractoxygenmoreaggressively.Thenyoubindthesecondone,thethirdone,andthefourthonenowbindmoreaggressively.Whenthey'reall4bound,hemoglobinholdsontooxygenveryaggressively.

Alotofpeoplethinkofoptimizingtheiroxygenationmeanshavingbetteroxygenbinding,andthat'snotthecase.Whatyouneedisoxygendelivery.Thehemoglobinmoleculehastobeabletoletgoofoxygenatthetissuelevel.Atsealevel,whenyouchronicallyhavegoodhighlevelsofoxygen,you'realwaysbindingoxygenaggressively,anditshardfortheoxygentoletgoatthetissuelevel.Thingsthatcanaugmentlettinggoofoxygenatthetissuelevelacutelyarelacticacidosisthensignalsthatthere'stissuehypoxia.Thatchangesagaintheshapeofthehemoglobinmoleculesoitletsgoofoxygenmorereadily.Onachronicbasis,whenyoutrainataltitude,oryoudowhatyou'redoing,you'reactuallyupregulatingamoleculecalled2,3-diphospoglycerte.Thatisamoleculethatchangestheshapeof

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hemoglobinoverthelongertimespan,soitbindsoxygenlessaggressively.

DaveAsprey: Really?

Dr.DougMcGuff: Thatmeansyou'reabletoletgoofoxygenmoreeasilyatthetissuelevel.Whatyou'llfindisifyoutrainataltitude,youreturntoamorenormalsealevel,whatyou'llfindisthatyouroxygensaturationratherthanalwaysbeing99or100%,you'llbeat95%.Someonethat'strainedinahypoxicenvironmentproducesmore2,3-diphospoglycerte,andtheythereforebindtheoxygentothehemoglobinmoleculealittlebitlessaggressivelyandarethereforemoreabletoletgoofoxygenatthetissuelevel,andpassoxygenfromhemoglobintomyoglobininthemusclewhereitcanbeutilized.

DaveAsprey: You'reincreasingthebioavailabilityofoxygentoyourmuscles?

Dr.DougMcGuff: Correct.Byactuallyholdingontoitlessstingilytoit.

DaveAsprey: DougI'msogladIaskedyouthat,becausenooneseverexplainedthattome.Idon'tevenknowthatmolecule,nowIhavetogolookitup.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Thecoolthingis,if,canyouseemeonthescreen?

DaveAsprey: Yeah.Althoughpeoplewho'reintheircarswon't,butalotofpeopleonYouTubewatch.

Dr.DougMcGuff: WellI'lltrytodescribeitverbally.Theoxygenbindingcurveforhemoglobinissigmoidal.Itstartsoffveryflat,andthenasoxygenlevelrisesinyourbloodstream,whenthepartialpressureofoxygenisabout20,youroxygensaturationisgoingtobe50-60%.Asthepartialpressureofoxygenrisesto30,40,and50yougetonthesteeppartofthecurvethatgoesup.Onceyougetapartialpressureofoxygenabout70or80,yourhemoglobinmoleculewillbeabout95%saturated.Thenyoucandriveoxygenuptopartialpressureof200andyou'renotgoingtoget,you'restillgoingtobottomoutat99-100%.Theshoulderwhereyougofromreallytightlyboundoxygenandfullysaturatedhemoglobinisatabout95%.Someonethat'strainedinahypoxicenvironmentwillsitrightatthatshoulder.

DaveAsprey: Oh.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Sothattheycandropoffonthesteeppartofthedissociationcurvereallyquickly.Thatpersonletsgoofoxygenmoreaggressivelyatthetissuelevel.Alotofpeoplewhentheydothisandtheyputthepulseoximeteronandthey'relikedamn,I'monlyat95%onroomair,thisisn'tworking.Whatthatreallymeansisthatitisworking,youshouldberunningaround95-96%,not100%.Theythink,I'mgettingworse,whenthey'reactuallygettingbetterbecauseyou'rebindingoxygenlessaggressively,youcandeliverittotissuemoreeasily.

DaveAsprey: Serendipityisawesome,becauseIputonmypulseoxygenmonitoranditwasjust

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at96andIwaslike,Goddamn,literallyithappenedtomelike30secondsago.Iwaslikeyeah,I'vebeenmonitoringmybloodoxygen,IwroteaboutwhathappenstoitwhenIfly,I'vebeenplayingwiththisforyears.IguessallthisstuffI'mdoing,firsttimeIsawit96duringtheday,hereitisyoupredictedthat.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Thatmoreisbetter,butwhenitcomestohemoglobinbindingyouwanttobindtheoxygenlessaggressively.Mostpeoplethatarewellconditionedwillfloataround95-96%,becausetheyletgoofiteasier.

DaveAsprey: Ohthat'sbeautiful.Allright.Letsgetbackintoexercise.CrossFitandfunctionalmovement.What'syourtakeon-clearlytheintensity'sthereanditseemslikeminimumeffectivedoseisn'tgoingtogiveyouthebenefitsofproperformthatyouwouldgetfromafunctionalmovementtraining,what'syourtakeonthatforaBodybyScienceperspective?

Dr.DougMcGuff: Idon'teverwanttobeaguythatcomesacrossasahater.Inthatcontext,IgototheCrossFitwebsiteeverydayandIlookatit.Iliketheirsenseoflife.

DaveAsprey: Amen.Yeah.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Ithinkthereisenormousvalueindoinghardthings.Ithinkthat'scoolstuff,okay.Thewholefunctionalmovementcrazeisalittleoffputtingtome,becauseIthinkitsoverplayed.Thehumanbody,ifitsappropriatelystrengtheningandconditioning,itsfunctionalandcangetintomostpositionsprettywell.Idon'tthinkyouhavetoconstructamajortrainingcomponentdedicatedexclusivelytothatforthattobeinplace.

NowmybeefwithCrossFit,fromtheBodybyScienceperspective,is2things.Oneisthatformostcircumstancesandmostpeopleyouhavecrossedthethresholdwaybeyondminimaleffectivedose.IfyoufollowtheWODsandyoudowhat'sgoingtobegoingonatmostboxes,you'regoingtobewellbeyondminimaleffectivedose.WhatthatdoesforCrossFitfromamarketingstandpointisitcreatesthefitnessversionofSEALBUD/Straining.Youkindofgetridofallthepeoplethatarenotintrinsicallytoughenoughtohandleit,ordon'thavethatgeneticallygiftedrecoverycapabilitytobeginwith.Youkindofweedouttheweak,andyou'releftwiththestrong.Itsagreatmarketingstrategyforgettingpeoplethatrespondwelltoexercise.Itscertainlygreatlyoverstepstheminimaleffectivedoseconcept,whichI'mabigfanof.

Thesecondthingis,Ithinktheyneedtore-thinkalotofthedifferentWODsthatarenamedafterwomen.Idon'tevenknowwhattheyare.Ithinkitcouldbearealproblemwhenyoutakeahighlycomplexskilledmovementpatternandmixitwithexhaustion.Motorskills,likewesaidbefore,motorcontroldegradeswhenheartrateelevatesaboveacertainpoint.Complexmotorskillsdegradewithexhaustion.Whenyou'regoingtoputa500or2,000meterrowanda100burpeesbeforeyoudosomecomplexOlympiclift,Ithinkthat'saprescriptiontomessyourselfupinabigway.

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DaveAsprey: You'reworriedabouttheinjurysideofit?

Dr.DougMcGuff: Yeah.BodybyScience,superslow,alotofthehighintensityworld,weareway,

wayontheotherspectrumofsafety.Weinvokesomuchsafetythatourmarginofsafetyisalmostridiculous.ImeanUltimateExercisehasbeenopensince1997,wedo120workoutsaweek,we'veneverhadaninjuryinthefacility.

DaveAsprey: Whereisyourfacility?Plugitforaminute.

Dr.DougMcGuff: We'reinSeneca,SouthCarolina.WhichisrightnexttoClemsonUniversity,ifanyone'sfamiliar.Wehavethishugemarginofsafety.I'mnotsayingthateverythingtheydoisunsafe,butIthinktherearecertaincombinationswhereyou'rebeggingforit.Imeanifyou'rereallydoingsomethingthat'shighlyexhaustive,itsstackingalotoffatigueandalotoflacticacidosis,andthenyou'regoingtodoacomplexmotormovementinastateofexhaustion.That'swhenyou'regoingtodropthebaronyourneck,oronyourback,you'regoingtolosecontrolofitgoingoverhead,andtearyourrotatorcuff,orgetaslapinjury.Ithinksomeofthatprobablyneedstoberethought.Peoplethataredoingitwellareprobablyarrangingthingsinawaywherethatdoesn'thappen.

DaveAsprey: ThecompositionoftheWODreallymattersforCrossFit,Ihearyouthere.

Dr.DougMcGuff: That'stheirproduct,andthat'stheirbusiness,I'llletthemhandleit.I'vegotmyproductandmybusiness.

DaveAsprey: Neitherofusisdumping.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Iloveanyonethatvaluesdoinghardthings,Ithinkitscool.

DaveAsprey: YeahIevenhaveKellyStarrettcomingtotheBulletproofconferencetospeak,he'sdoingsomeofboth.I'masupporterofit,butmanifyou'regoingtotrainthathardyoubetterrecoverjustashard.AlotofthetechniquesthatI'veworkedonaregoodforrecovering,resilience,whateverkindofyourstressis.Ifyou'reworkingout6daysaweek,yourphysicalstressisprettyhigh,soletshopeyouremotionalandjobstressaren'tsobad.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Thewaytheymarketthemselveswithallthemilitarydevotionandalltheworkoutsnamedafterdeadsoldiers,thewholeJohnnyQuestspecialforcesthingsreallyappealstothetypeAexecutives,thatyou'vespokenaboutearlier.ThatcanreallythrowgasolineonthefireoftheOCD,overaccomplishment,leadingtoovertrainingproblemthatwetalkedaboutearlier.

DaveAsprey: ItssomethingthatIthinkisheretostay,itssuperhighintensityanditfeelsgoodinthecommunity,there'salotofgoodstuffgoing.Ihearwhatyou'resayingthere,theconcernaboutinjuries,becausemeI'mactuallygratefulthatIwalkrelativelynormally.Aftermythirdkneesurgeryat23wheretheyputascrewinmyknee,

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theysortofsaidwell,begratefulyou'rewalking.FormetohavegonefromconstantkneepaininbothkneestobeingabletotracktotheHimalayasformonths,eventhoughmykneeshurtsomeofthetimetobehonest.Itdoesn'tmatter,Icoulddoit,anditwaswithinmycapabilityandIdidn'thaveanunstablekneeoranything,sowow.

Dr.DougMcGuff: That'sacoolpointthatI'venoticedovertheyears,bothintheemergencydepartmentseeingpatientsandinthetrainingfacilities,Iseealotofpeoplewithbummedupjoints,badknees,osteoarthritis.Thepeoplethataredoinghighintensitymuscularworkcanhaveaknee,thatbyradiographiccriteriaishorrendousosteoarthritis,butthey'reasymptomatic.Theydon'thavepain.

DaveAsprey: Wow.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Whereassomeonethatisnotdoingexercisethatchallengesmuscleinameaningfulway,thosepeoplehaveosteoarthritiswithinflammatorychangesandsignificantpainthatlimitstheiractivitiesindailylife.Ithinkithasalottodowiththismyokinestuffwe'vebeentalkingabout.Oneofthem,interleukin15,hasabigsystemicanti-inflammatoryeffectmainlybythefactthatitantagonizestruncalbodyfat,whichisthemajordistributorofalltheseinflammatorycytokines.Italsohasadirectanti-inflammatoryeffectasitcirculatesthroughthebody.That'soneofthosethingsthatIobservebutcouldnotexplain,thatIthinkmyokinesmightexplain.Itmightexplainwhyyougotthiskneethat'sfullofhardware,butitdoesn'treallybotheryouthatmuch.WhenifyoulookatitonX-ray,anyoneintheirrightmindwouldgo,ohshit.

DaveAsprey: Thatmaybethecase.Ididnotknowyouweresupposedtobeabletowalkwithoutpainuntilsometimeinmymid20s,likewowIactuallydidthat.Iplayedsoccerfor13years,ithurtstorun,ithurtstomove,that'sjusttheconditionoflife.GrantedIhadextremeinflammationbecauseIwasexposedtosomebiotoxinsandwhatnot.Iatelikecrapbecausewedidn'tknowanybetter,somistakesweremade.Still,lookingatallthisIL-6,IL-15,IL-8,allthedifferentinterleukinsandallthemyokines,itsbeenrevolutionaryformeandyou'vestudiedthemmuchmoresothanIhave.I'velookedatwhichsupplementsandinsomecaseswhichformsofthingslikegrowthandregenesisaregoingtodownregulateinflammation,becauseI'magingasawaragainstinflammation,sohowdowewin?Areyougoingtocomeoutwithabookonthese?Itseemslikeitsabouttime.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Oh,man.Thatwouldbecooltodo.Thenextgoaround,I'dliketodoanotherexercisebookthatincorporatesallofthissortofstuffagain.Yeah,Iprobablywillhavetodothat.Itsnotdefinitelyintheplansrightnow,becausethere'ssomuchothercrapgoingonrightnow.Especiallyasmyunderstandingofitdelveddeeper.Thecoolthingaboutit,itskindofthecoolstuffaboutwhatyoudo,isthatallofthiscomplexityandallthisstuffthatyoucanreallygeekouton,theneatmessagebehinditallisthatifyoujustfollowsomesimpleheuristicsandjustdothis,thenallofthattakescareofitself.Thatcomplexityistheretomakeitsimpleforus.

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DaveAsprey: Itsfunny,IdidnotknowhalfthereasonsBulletproofcoffeeworked.Iexperimentedwiththisideaofputtingbutterin,hastobebetterthantheothercrapthat'sincappuccino.Ifeltreallygood,IjustnoticeditinTibet.AsIwrotetheBulletproofdietbook,Ikeptcomingacrossresearchlike,ohmyGod,someoneactuallydidthisstudy?TheyfoundthesameresultsInoticedinmyself,butIdidn'tknowtherewasanythingsciencebehindthat.IwasabletogeekoutandfindreasonsIwasgettingeffectsthatshouldnothavehappenedaccordingtomyexpectations,butdid.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Yeah,andthat'sthethingovertheyearsexperimentinginthegymandcommunicatingwithotherpeoplethatareexperimenting.Istartedtoseethepattern.Everyonethinksscienceprecedesinventionandinnovation,butitdoesn't.Inventionandinnovationprecedesscience.Thenwegivesciencesomethingtofill,allthissciencethat'scomingoutonhighintensityexercisewasprecededby20yearsbutguyslikeArthurJonesandEllingtonDardenandpeoplethatwerelookingatthehighintensityexercise.Theintrinsicintuitive,manthisisreallygoodstuff,thatprecededanyscientificinvestigationintowhyitworked.WhatI'mreallystartingtounderstandisthatthere'ssomethingthatprecedesinnovation,itscalledtinkeringandfartingaround.Youknowthisfartingaroundandtinkeringwithshitleadstoinnovation.Thenoncetheinnovationexpressesitself,thensociety'slike,heywhataretheseguysdoingoverhereletsstudyit.That'sthewayitgoes.Scienceneverprecedesinnovation,thatIhaveeverseen.

DaveAsprey: Youlookatobservation,littlebitofhypothesizing,experimenting,andthenyoureallycomeinwiththehardcorestuff.Ijustfundedsomeresearchlookingatinflammation.IpaidfortheIRBapprovalforastudy.Itsfunny.ItsanobservationthatI'vemadethat,I'dsaythousandsofotherpeoplehavereportedtome,butnooneseverstudieditinasystematicway.Eithertheinflammationnumbersaregoingtogouporgodown,accordingtoasetofpracticesandthatsortofthing.There'snorealeconomicincentiveformuchofthishighintensity,who'sgoingtobenefitfromdoingthestudyonhighintensityexercise?Somenewgymorsomethingmaybe?Itsnotlikeitsabigpharmaceuticalcompany.I'mlookingforwardtomorequantifiedstuffhappening.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Ihavethisbookthat'scalledBodybyScience,andIhavebeendoggedbypeopleforalackofscientificrigorinsomeofthestuffIdiscussontheinternet,onmyblog,andinvideos,andwithyou.You'vegottenalotofcrap,becauseguyslikeuswhatwe'redoing,Imeanwethrowdogshitintothescreendoorandseewhatlandsontheotherside.

DaveAsprey: Yeah.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Whensomestufflandsontheotherside,thenohtheseriousscientistscomepickthatstuffupandrunwithit,itslike,oh.Thatwillingnesstosay,thisworksforreasonsIdon'tunderstandandI'mgoingtokeepdoingit,eventhoughtIcan'tproveit,isenormouslybeneficial.Sometimestheprovingpartofitdoesn'thappenfor20years,soyoudon'thavetimetowaitaround.

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DaveAsprey: Yeahagingdoesn'twait.I'mnotplanningondyingbecauseIwaswaitingfora

doubleblindstudythatsaiddyingwasbadforme.

Dr.DougMcGuff: I'm52,tomorrowIgototakemyboard,every10yearsyou'vegottore-certifyforyourboardcertificationemergencymedicine,tomorrowIgotakemysecond10yearcertification.WhichmeansthelasttimeItookitIwas42andIliterallyfeellikeitwas2weeksagothatIdrovedowntothetestingcenteranddidit.

DaveAsprey: Wow.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Thethingis,inourdaytodaylives,thedaysarelong,buttheyearsareshort.Wedon'thavetimetomessaroundwiththisstuff,Ibelievethatyou'vejustgottogetonwithit,anddothings.

DaveAsprey: Itstotallytrue.Igottosay,ifyou'rewatchingandyou'relookingonSkype,youdon'tlookanyolderthanIam,andI'm41,you'redoingsomethingright.Ilookoddtoday,ifanyone'snoticedmesittingwithmyeyesclosed,1ofmyeyesisfullydilatedbecauseIhadaneyeexamrightbeforethis.I'vebeenkindofsquintingandlookingfunnythewholetime.

Dr.DougMcGuff: WellyoulooklikeSatan.

DaveAsprey: NowletsseeI'vegot2morequestionsforyou.1ofthemis,haveyoulookedatinflammationormusclesandwholebodyvibrationatall?Itseemslikethere'sanotherwholesetofhackedwarmupstuffgoingonthere,andfulldisclosureIhavethewholeBulletproofvibeitsaverysmallpartofwhatIdo.

Dr.DougMcGuff: No,andthisisthesecondtimesomeone'sreallypingedmewiththat.IhadaninterviewwithJosephMercolaawhilebackandhepingedmeaboutit.IttriggeredmejustenoughtokindofhitPubMedandsee,ohisthereanyliteratureouthereaboutthatatall?Thereseemedtobeamother-loadofit,butI'venotdelvedintoityet.

DaveAsprey: Youwantmetosendyou1for3monthstoplaywith?I'dbehappyto.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Sure,yeah.

DaveAsprey: Allright,itsyours.TheBulletproofvibeisawesome.Istandonit,probablybetweenthisandmynextinterview,I'llgostandonitfor2minutesjusttogetthelymphaticsystemgoing,circulationandall.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Yeah.Toansweryourquestioninanyrealsenseandtobeabletocommentintelligentlyonit,no.

DaveAsprey: Okay,cool.

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Dr.DougMcGuff: Itdidpiquemycuriosityenoughtogoletslookseewhattheliteratureislike.There'salot.

DaveAsprey: Yeah.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Itsgottoberead.

DaveAsprey: Itgoesbacktothatwholestrategiclaziness,minimumeffectivedose.I'mabigbelieverinmovementandoneofthethingsthatIloveaboutyourbook,BodybyScience,isthatitslikelook,takingthestairsismovement.Itsnotexercise,soyou'renotgettingahormonalresponse.SometimesIdon'thavetimetogoforawalk,butIstillwantmybodytogetthemovementthathappens,ifIcanacceleratethatintoasmallerperiodoftime,itsmaybeinferiorbutitsbetterthannothing.Itendtolookatitlikethat.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Youknow,itsnotexercisebutIthinkthatkindofstuffisimportant.OnethingI'malsobecomingabigbelieverin,themyokineskindoffeedintothat,istheconceptofsignaling.I'vealwaysfoundthatwhenIspendalotoftimewalking,longdistances,anhour,2,walks.Goingonwalkswiththewife,I'malwaysleaning.Idon'tthinkitsbecauseofanyexerciseeffectorcalorieburningeffect,butIthinkitsendsabiologicalsignalthatsays,lookifyou'regoingtobemovingaroundthatmuch,thediminishingmarginalutilityofcarryingstoredenergyonyourbodyistoohigh.Itscostistoohigh.Sureyou'vegot2weeksofstoredenergy,butthecostofcarryingaroundallthatcrapistoomuchifyou'regoingtobemovingaroundthatmuch.Thebiologicalsignaladjustsbehaviorinawaythatallowsyoutobeleaner.Itsnotthatyou'reburningcalories,or10,000stepsadayburnsacertainnumberofcalories,that'scrap.

DaveAsprey: Itslaughable.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Idothinkitsendsabiologicalsignalthatsays,themarginalutilityofhavingstoredbodyfatisnowdiminished.

DaveAsprey: Ithinkwewouldbothagreethatthere'sgottobesomethinggoingonthere.Samething,itdoesn'tmakeanysensebecauseyouburn3potatochip'sworthonyourlongwalkifyou'rereallylookingatcalorieburn.Yeah,youfeelbetterandIalwaysassumeditwassomethingtowiththemuscle'seffectonlymph.Youincreaselymphflow,maybeyouhavemoreabilitytoburnfat.There'sclearlysomelittlemechanismthatweprobably-

Dr.DougMcGuff: YeahIthinkthatthere'sjustsomuchgoingoninsidethatblackboxthatyouknowwe'vejustgottobehappywithwhatcomesouttheotherside.

DaveAsprey: TheotherquestionIreallywantedtoaskyouissomethingIthinkthatwouldbenefitreaders,Bulletproofexecisrelativelycomplex,there'sabunchofcomehere,startherekindofstuff.Really,therearepeoplewhoreallygetintotheweedsandthere'salotofweedstherethatyoucangetintoifyoureallywanttogoand

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dosomething.WhenIgotoBodybyscience.net,you'vegotalotofcomplexityontheretoo.Iwanttoknowhowareyoudealingwiththat,andwhereshouldnewpeoplewanttogoandcheckoutyourwebsite?Whereshouldtheygotostartlookingatyourrecommendations?Honestlyyou'vegottonsofstuffonresearch,Ifinditausefulresource.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Yeah,Imeanthat'sagreatplacefor,itsmoreofagatheringcommunityforgeekslikemethatwanttocomethereandgeekout.IactuallyhaveawebsitethatIrunmostofmyconsultancythroughthathasadirectlinktoaYouTubechannelthat'sgotsomegoodvideos,andlectures,andthingsofthatnature.That'sjustDr.McGuff,D-R-M-C-G-U-F-F.com,soDrMcGuff.com,ifyougothereyoucanseeallthestuffonconsultancy.There'slinksonlearnandwatchandstufflikethat.WhereyoucangoandpickupsomeofthelecturesthatI'vegiventhat'vebeenrecorded,thatreallykindofparsesdownintotheessentials.Itcanevenbemuchsimplerthanthat.YouhaveagreatvisualanalogthingfordietthatIthinkisagreatheuristictooperateby.

DaveAsprey: Thankyou.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Myheuristicfordietisthis,andforexerciseis,dosomethingreallyhardeveryonceinawhileandremainactiveotherwise.

DaveAsprey: Holdonthat'stoohard,letmewritethatdown.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Dosomereallyhardstuffeveryonceinawhile,andremainactive.Dietisthis,ifyoudrawastraightlinebetweenthesunandyourbody,thenthat'sagooddiet.Yourdietcanbeyougettingdirectlyinthesun,andconvertingvitaminD3andprobablyalotofotherhormonallyactivesubstanceswedon'tevenknowaboutthatcomefromdirectsunlight.Orthesunlightactsonphytoplankton,thesunlightactsonplantsthatgothroughphotosynthesis,youcaneatthoselikeTerryWallsactivates.

DaveAsprey: Yup,whichisagoodfriendofmine.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Thereareanimalsthateatthoseplantsandyoucaneatthoseanimals.Youcanmoveupthefoodchain.Thatfoodchainisachainthatconnectsbetweenyouandthesuninastraightline.Whenyoudeviateoffthatstraightline,throughprocessing,that'swhereyougetintotrouble.Adietthatstaysonthatstraightlinetendstobeasingleingredientdiet.Youdon'tpickupaboxanditsgot40ingredientsthatyoucan'tpronounce,youpickupa,whatamIgoingtoeat,I'mgoingtoeatanegg.What'sinegg?Egg.What'sinapple?Apple.What'sinbroccoli?Broccoli.

DaveAsprey: Yeah.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Singleingredientdiets,straightlinebetweenyouandthesun,andthatworksout.Theheuristic,thatlittleanalogthing,good,better,best,foreachofthedifferent

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macronutrientsandstuff,that'sagreatgrossheuristic.Ithinkthosearethethings,thosegrossheuristics,thatsimplyeverythingsothatyoucandoitwithouthavingtodevotesomuchmentalenergytoit,youcangoonanddothemoreimportantthingsinlife.Ithinkthat'sreallykey.

DaveAsprey: Ithinkwehaveasimilarwayofthinking,becauseIthinkyoureallywelleditdowninyourbook,samethingwhenIreadthat,I'mlikeIdon'tneedtoknowallthedetailshere,I'mmoreaboutfeelingreally,reallygood,havingatonofenergy,havingmybrainworkallthetime,andlookingreasonablygood.I'mmarried,Ihavekids,Idon'thavetohaveachiseledHollywood6%bodyfat,infactIwouldprobablydiesoonerifIdid,likemostpeoplewholookthatway.Thewholepointthereislikethegoalsaren'treallydifferent,butwhenitcomestoexercise,Iknowyou'vegone2levelsdeeperthanIhave.Ilookatyours,here'sthe5thingsthatyoudo,anddothemaboutthisoftenwithaboutthislittleintensity,aboutthere.You'renottooperfectionistaboutit,loveit,that'sperfect.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Yeah.There'saletterofthelawandIlovediggingintothat.Thepurposeofletterofthelawissothatyoucanoperatewiththespiritofthelaw.Ifyoudothat,you're95%ofthewaythere,therestisjusticing,andifyoujustwanttogeekoutitsthereforyou.

DaveAsprey: Itstimetotestyourmemory,becausea100andsoepisodesago,Iaskedyouthinkquestion.Iwanttoaskittoyouagainisthefinalquestionintheinterview.Whatareyourtop3recommendationsforpeoplewhowanttoperformbetteratlife?Ifyouwanttokickmoreass,dothese3things,doesn'thavetobeanythingtodowithexercise,whateverelse.You'velearnedalot,youhaveaninterestingcareer,the3thingsthateveryoneshouldknow?We'regoingtotestandseeifthismatcheswhatyoudidbefore.Notreally,there'snotest.There'snotest.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Itwon'tmatch,becauseI'veseenyourotherinterviewsandIsawthequestionandIthoughtwhatdoIwanttosaythistime?ItsprobablygoingtobedifferentthanwhatIsaidbefore.

DaveAsprey: That'sactuallygood.Yeah,shareyourknowledge.

Dr.DougMcGuff: Itsnotgoingtorelatejustdirectlytoexerciseorphysicalaspects,butlifeingeneral.

DaveAsprey: Yes.

Dr.DougMcGuff: BecauseI'mstudyingformyemergencymedicineboards,thirdtimearound,thistimetherenewalevery10years,itgetsmethinkingaboutthingsinamoreglobalsense.Intheglobalsense,my3thingsforkickingassinlifeare,number1,justshowup.Justshowup,that's90%ofit,whateveritisjustdoit,justshowupandbethereandyou'reonyourway.Thenumber2thingisimagine.Actuallyifthere'ssomethingyouwanttodo,somewayyouwanttobe,beingabletoimagineitinyourmindsetsthestageforittohappen.Yougiveyourbraininyourmindatarget

BPR-DougMcGuff-2016 Page 22 of 23

tofocuson,andthatstartswithimagination.Thenonceyou'vedonethat,theotherthingisrehearsal.Justrehearseitinyourmind,overandoverandoveragain.There'scertainbigthingsthatyouhavetohaveworkedoutinyourmindaheadoftime,soyouknowwhatyou'recourseofactionisgoingtobe.Becausewhentheshithitsthefan,andyou'refreakingout,you'vegottobeabletogothere.

WhenIgotowork,intheER,everydaywhenI'mdrivingintowork,Irehearse3thingsinmyhead.1istodoathoracotomy,whichiswheresomeonesbeenshotinthechest,theyarriveinfullarrest,you'vegottoopenuptheirchest,openupthesacaroundtheheart,evacuatetheclot,savesomeone'slifethat'sbeenshotorstabbed.Theotheristheprocedureofcricothyrotomy,whichisgettingintothewindpipeforsomeonewhohashadmassivefacial,orishavinganallergicreactiontheretonguessoswollenthatyoucan'tgetatubeintotheirwindpipebytheusualroute.Youhavetodoitsurgically.Thethirdisapostmortemcesareansection.Apregnantwomanthat'sbeyond20-24weeksgestationthat'shadacardiacarrest.Within5minutesofcardiacarrest,theonlywayyou'regoingtosavethemotherandthebabyistocutandgetthebabyout.

Thethingaboutemergencymedicine,andthethingaboutsomanythingsinlife,isthegreateryourneedtoactquicklyanddecisively,thegreateryourtendencytohesitate.Theonlywaytoovercomethatisrehearsal.Thinkaboutthebigimportantissuesinyourlifeandhowyou'regoingtobehavewhenthosethingshappen,andrehearsethem.Rehearsethemeveryday,sowhenitdoeshappen,you'llknowwhattodo.Whenyou'reonthe114thflooroftheWorldTradeCenterandtheinstructionsare,welltheytoldusjusttostayputuntiltheygiveusinstructions,ifyou'vethoughtitoutaheadoftimeyou'llbetheguythatsays,screwthat,I'mgoingdownthestairs.

Whensomeoneholdsyouatgunpointintheparkinglotoftheshoppingcenterandsaysgetinthecar,you'lltheguythatsaysI'mnotgettinginthecar.Youcanshootmerighthereintheparkinglotinfrontofallthecameras.There'sallsortsofthings,you'vegotpickwhattheyare.Whateverthesebigissuesinyourlifethatyouforeseecomingsometimeinthefuture,thinkaboutwhatyou'regoingtodoandrehearseit.Thosearemy3secretstokickass.

DaveAsprey: Wellthosearedefinitelymoreimpactfulthanthelastones,becauseI'mnotsureIrememberthemwithoutgoingbacktolookattheshow,butIthinkI'llremembertheseDoug.

Dr.DougMcGuff: [inaudible01:12:25]Rabidlyscramblinghereonmycomputer,tryingtofindtheoldepisode.

DaveAsprey: Iwouldhavebeensadifyousaidthesameonesbecausepeoplecanalwayslistentothefirstinterview.Bytheway,youshouldifyouenjoyedthisone,thefirstinterviewwasgood.Wetalkedalotmoreinthatoneaboutthebasicsofexerciseandall.Dougitsalwaysapleasuretohaveyouontheshow,wouldyoutossoutDrMcGuff.comandBodybyscience.net,anyotherURLsbesidesthosethatpeople

BPR-DougMcGuff-2016 Page 23 of 23

shouldgoto?

Dr.DougMcGuff: IthinkthatwillgetyoutoeverythingthatissortofaportaltowhatIdo.That'sDr.McGuff,D-RMcGuff.com,andBodybyscience.netyoucanfindmefromthere.

DaveAsprey: Wonderful.HaveanawesomeafternoonandthanksagainforbeingonBulletproofradio.

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