PUBLIC RESPONSE TO GRIEF: POST MANCHESTER/LONDON/GRENFELL/FINSBURY

With: Sughra Ahmed from Woolf interfaith at CambridgeDavid Walker, Bishop of ManchesterLinda Woodhead – sociologist of religion, Lancaster

Main questions - How have expressions of public grief changed? –how has this been illustrated in recent tragic events? – what does this tell us about the changing religious and spiritual needs of people? – what does this tell us about the state of faith and interfaith in our society? Role of religious institutions and leaders etc.

Public response to tragedy – is it grief or is it something else? Allows focus on concert as well as more obvious grief focused ..,

Katie Harrison This is of course an important part of Cole Moreton's work a little while ago - public outpourings of grief, marking and sharing moments, emblems and visual representations of memorial.  it's the Is God Still An Englishman? book. Buy it!

Is it about the numbers? About the age? Is it human expression or change over time?

Social media enabling expressions of grief:The most encouraging thing I’ve seen over recent tragedies is the use of social media to offer practical help to each other – beds, blood, food, etc.

Radio sat night, anger around Grenfall – this vigil stopped a right – contained the anger… (EDL?). soc med cyberbullying .. pile on, open discourse (filter bubble) .. JK Rowling – work at closing down hate speech … Gestures – phones – 1000 roses by muslims get picked up, blindfold hugs for muslims – powerful/sharing – viral… world seems dreadful, individual responses = hope …

Latest talk I’ve done on that area - http://drbexl.co.uk/2017/05/23/social-media-helpful-hurtful-crisis-like-manchester-drive-delaneyman-talkradio/ (and similar http://drbexl.co.uk/2017/04/10/media-discussing-shocking-images-syrian-children-talkradio/).

https://www.facebook.com/drbexl/posts/10158721027345161?pnref=story

Thinking (as Christian, as historian, as socmed specialist) 1) How have expressions of public grief changed & illustrated in recent events? (Victorian, Ww1, ww2, Senna, Diana, 2017 events - others?) (The poem at Manc, the 'we will resist/the concert - too soon?) (The public minute silence - I was on bus for Manc arena one - socmed people trying to guess what going on at actual event?) 2) What does this tell us about changing religious & spiritual needs of people? (Do people turn to church, to civic institutions, are there no atheists when things get tough? Church & mosques etc offering practical responses/spaces for #prayfor etc)?3) What does it tell us about the state of faith/interfaith in our society, role of religious institutions/leaders etc (saw someone on BBC saying differences don't matter - it's all about getting together to help, but then socmed full of hate rhetoric - but love, etc, the use of FB checkin etc)

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Hannah Johnson 1) Victorians - death was a bit more part of daily life. Think about the sizes of families. They'd have multiple kids because the children didn't always survive past childhood. They'd also take photos of the dead sometimes posed with live family members. 

WW1/WW2 - there was the hope that people would come back from serving but some didn't come home. There's probably be gossip about how "so and so up the road got a letter. Her son/husband/father isn't coming home". 

I remember Diana dying - I was 11 I think. I'd been at a sleepover and we popped to the petrol station to get milk for my friend's mum and it was all over the front pages. I vaguely remember the Queen Mother passing too. My mum had had the news on because it was coming. Chances are my Dad was watching the F1 race when Senna had his accident. It used to be a thing - we'd be allowed to eat Sunday lunch in the living room to watch the F1 races after church. 2017 - I've usually seen it break on fb first and has often been one particular friend. I think it's more instant and more collective in a way. Not only do we share the information about what's going on. We share the missing people and pleas for help. Facebook has been where I've found out about who in Bedford is collecting physical stuff for the Grenwell Tower appeals. It's been FB and Twitter where news updates have started. We tried to honour the minute silences but I've often missed them because I've been juggling Jaxon or the group I've been at haven't realised the time. I know the Town Chaplaincy in Bedford have been holding memorials in town along with other faith groups. 2) Do we reach for people to rely on over God? However it's been the churches and other faith groups around Grenwell who were on the "ground" and doing what they could do help those out of the tower. Sometimes being salt and light and showing Jesus's love to those around us is more powerful than any words we can say. Within hours churches/mosques had open their doors even in the middle of the night to take in people both in London and Manchester. 3) With all the rubbish that has happened in the last few months I think more people are realising or having it reenforced that we as human beings on planet earth have more in common than the things that separate us. Also that the percentage of extremists compared to total is the minority affecting the majority. 

(Okay long comment on my phone so hopefully it makes sense!)

Where social media is less helpful: Questions whether the check-in feature is useful (don’t need to contact lots of

people), or unhelpful (complaints about geography, people wanting to be part of the ‘thing’, comparisons with ‘the past’ – but we now know so much about each other’s lives if go silent – may worry?). * Part of wider conversations about e.g. weddings, birth announcements, death announcements online – can deal with a lot of people at once rather than multiple phone calls.

“This Facebook post is how many of Lauren’s close friends learned that she had died. We—her family—hadn’t yet been able to call people. The first post sparked a cascade of statuses and pictures, many from people who barely knew her. It was as though an online community felt the need to claim a stake in her death, through syrupy posts that profoundly misrepresented who she was and sanitized what had happened to her. Lauren was an intensely private person, not one to identify with her diagnosis—a rare form of neurological cancer. And she would have had little patience for the mawkish kind of tributes on social media that followed…. Social media has increased the speed and ease of communication to an unprecedented degree, and yet sites like Facebook and Twitter are poorly suited to grief’s strangeness. By design, social media demands tidy conclusions, and dilutes tragedy so that it’s comprehensible even to those only distantly aware of what has happened. The majority of Facebook posts mourning Lauren’s death were full of “silver linings” comments that were so far

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removed from the horror of the reality that I found them isolating and offensive. Implicit in claims that Lauren was no longer suffering, or that “everything happens for a reason” are redemptive clauses—ones that have a silencing effect on those who find no value in their pain.” https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/06/internet-grief/485864/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2017/05/23/facebook-safety-check-mark-safe-manchester-attack/ https://www.engadget.com/2017/06/14/facebook-safety-check-new-features/ - new for London – community features, extra detail, etc. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40172377 - useful to let overseas family know – some felt is ‘riding on coattails of tragedy’ https://www.cnet.com/uk/news/facebook-safety-check-is-stressing-brits-out/ - esp Grenfell – small community, doesn’t need whole of London, but if puts others minds at rest. People don’t agree! Can use personal statement instead…

Rox Nicholl And what about the thing with the stickers on profiles - and then ppl don't take it off ....

‘Grief Tourists’ taking selfies - http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/18/grenfell-tower-residents-beg-people-not-to-take-selfies-at-scene-of-fire-6717132/

Josephine Elms My friend who lives next to Grenfell said they're fed up with "grief tourists". People saying they're there to pay their respects but really just wanting to join in the drama or worse, gawk

Mark Longbottom rubber necking of a different kind

Bex Lewis Yes, I felt a bit like that going to St Anne's Sq, but once I was there was struck by the atmosphere and stayed there for half hour in thought - and we don't do that much now...

Hannah Johnson Admittedly I did google it to see where it was geography wise and tried to figure out in relation to the tube line I was in when it was above ground but I wouldn't go to the site - I wouldn't want to get in the way of the work that needed to be done

Bex Lewis Went to Diana's funeral as well, as was already in London, and we literally said - this is a historical event, we should go. Something about it being a 'public life' giving legitimacy. The Senna one I was in Brazil for, and they were all lining up at the grave - I always said no one in Britain would understand it until Diana..

Hannah Johnson Bex I think Diana was the first where I "knew" the person as a kid if that makes sense. Prior to that it had always had been friends or family or I didn't really get it. Actually Dunblane would have been before then and I remember something happening because of stuff that happened around our school but i was still to young to really understand.

Josephine Elms I think there's a big difference between joining in with a public memorial or funeral and going to the scene, especially when the survivors are in such a desperate state still (there are still some without shoes... and worse I'm sure)

Pam Smith I was genuinely affected by Diana's death, I think it touched me because I was the mother of two young boys at the time. I was really interested in the relationship between Diana and 'the nation' that her death indicated - she seemed to have grown into the role of 'royal' as a figurehead, bringing healing with her touch etc.

Barbara Edwards I think I agree going to the scene, but I can slightly understand the need to see things for real. Maybe remind people that it isn't fair on the grieving and may get in the

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way of emergency services. I don't really like the whole narrative of shock and amazement, then the great and the good, heroes and villains, all in about a week. Diana, we had a neighbour party that night, went ahead and no one said a thing. But I have lost people in horrible car accidents in times of drinking without seat belts and I think felt the horror of divorced families and how you handle it.

Pre-WW1 (from Christina Welch) Regency: Black was expensive, so demonstrated wealth by being able to mourn properly. Others were socially disenfranchised from grief, as even a black armband was beyond some of them. Important that fair skin/black clothes, not black skin.

Victorian – when death became ‘big’. Socially stratified. Money meant one could be ostentatious. Huge memorials have become part of the landscape –making an impact beyond death/express power & status. See e.g. magnificent 7 graveyards in London, which became over-stacked with bodily fluids leaking, led to new legislation – graveyards were set up out of town – one way ticket for coffin, 2-way for mourners. Unusual – Thomas Sayers - http://www.victorianweb.org/sculpture/funerary/222.html - famous so people paid for his funeral/memorial.

People mourned those who were important figures in their lives – friends, family, the Queen, etc. Not uncommon for 1000+ to attend public figure’s funeral.

“The Victorians were the last generation to make a pageant of grief – female mourners were even required to wear black underwear – but clinging to elaborate public mourning practices during the First World War could have brought the country to its knees. Instead, the message that pain and grief should be packed away “in your old kit bag” was a powerful one.” http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/10639359/Have-the-British-forgotten-how-to-grieve.html

Barbara Edwards Big questions Bex, several volumes. Victorians were I think very sentimental but also very used to loss through disease and illness. Sentiment was round the family and nation maybe. But everyone wore mourning when Queen Victoria died, I think people need a feeling of mass sharing of grief. We had a WI talk on war memorials and the Commonwealth Graves Commission. German ones interesting in consuming history. I think people respond to prayer, it is the one bit of my Christianity that people accept and they like it when you pray for them. Interfaith, well meaning but the converted, no hammering out of real differences and the same goes within Christianity. Being global is a value but I think it is natural to want to stick to your tribe and to do it genuinely takes a lot of hard work. And maybe it's the culture not the economy, impressed with Salvation Army intercultural training. Now most of us have no where to go, the odd candle in the cathedral but what about admission charges? Mosque I wouldn't dare, no headscarf, not obviously for women. If you are non religious where would you go - a concert like Manchester? For me and my cousin, the National Arboretum means a lot and the war graves perhaps.

War & Memory: WW1 We need a bit of history, in looking at how expressions of public grief have changed  - first world war is an obvious watershed; mass loss of young life and the re-emergence of “catholic”. Note that re Manchester, and Finsbury Park in particular – young people and sense of life ahead wasted highlighted (cowardice of attackers)

https://www.bl.uk/world-war-one/articles/remembrance-and-memorials - how remembrance and memorialisation have been used by nations and communities to negotiate the overwhelming losses of World War One. (Dan Todman)

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The scale (global, upheaval, mass war) – bigger than Boer War, etc. The sense of ‘living through history’ that needed to be recorded. MEANING/

REMEMBRANCE – communal suffering, sacrifice, not the same.. not die in vain because x will change…

“Politicians, generals and governments attempted to justify losses and enthuse their populations for greater endeavours. Churches, charities and local civic leaders played an active role: providing solace by explaining the purpose of suffering was both a responsibility and a reinforcement of their position in society. Journalists, manufacturers, designers, sculptors, writers and publishers all responded to war as a creative stimulus and a commercial opportunity. Some of these responses were extremely modern in form, others reached back to more traditional representations of war, sacrifice and heroism in the search for comfort and understanding.” Cultural/political reasons, logistical reasons re bodies/ID

Cenotaph Whitehall, war graves - unknown soldier – sites of memory for people to return to.

Loss of Bodies“The focus of public grief was on the burial place. Visiting cemeteries to pay respects not only to loved ones but to socially significant others was considered a suitable activity for everyone, regardless of social background.But the 20th century changed all this. World War I robbed many of the bereaved of a body to bury – and so a focal point for grieving. Even among families who had a grave they could visit, the distance to battlefield cemeteries prevented it for all but the very affluent. So the focus of grief and memory shifted to war memorials constructed in almost every population centre in response to the public’s desire for a place to grieve.”https://theconversation.com/public-mourning-a-brief-history-35670

David Walker – pray for dead – not Catholic! Met needs, not turn to spiritualism (though Christina Welch uni of Winch, and founder of death conference, says not v successful – people didn’t buy in, and more move towards spiritual from dogmatic religion).

War & Memory: WW2Promised ‘Homes for Heroes’. Needed to make the sacrifices meaningful. So WW2, men said that if they were to fight/sacrifice, it had to lead to a better life. Led to Beveridge Report & the NHS – better life, and less swift journey to death!

First spoke about the following at Death Conference in Winchester May 2010, where I used to teach – still part of the Facebook group where we share stories about death, memory, grieving (I particularly re social media) - https://www.facebook.com/groups/104742819300/, also attended a conference in Durham re death and digital.

https://www.slideshare.net/drbexl/depicting-death-at-war-socrel13 During the [Second World] war, a ‘shared sense of national identity had to be mobilised amongst the people of Britain’. Achieved partly through propaganda posters, more and more people ‘were encouraged to identify themselves as active citizens, as active members of the nation’, a citizenship ‘to be earned by communal and individual service of one’s nation in wartime’. Lewis, R., Unpublished PhD thesis (2004), quoting Noakes, L., War and the British: Gender and National Identity, 1939-91, 1998, p.48.

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If we think about how the nature of that warfare has changed, weapons have become increasingly lethal, and the identification of acceptable target populations has widened. Well before the 20th century, warfare had become increasingly technologised, and social organisations of society had ensured that mass killings as an outcome of war, were normalised. Warfare became increasingly defined by the technological nature of war, and the increasingly efficient production through industrialised methods, not only in the production of weaponry, but in the increasing depersonalisation of the war, where every soldier was appearing to become part of an impersonal mass, interchangeable and therefore effectively ‘disposable’. // Disinhibition & cyber-bullying – forgot is a human being on other side.

Benedict Anderson - what ‘makes people love and die for nations, as well as hate and kill in their name’. Benedict Anderson offered the notion of ‘imagined communities’- citizens are likely to work together in ‘imagined communities’, “imagined because the members of even the smallest nation will never know most of their fellow-members, meet them, of even hear of them, yet in the minds of each lives the image of their communion.” Anderson examines how tradition is constructed, invented and appropriated, often through symbolism based on false tradition. Dying for one’s country, assumes a moral grandeur which dying for any other organisation (e.g. a political party) cannot rival, for these are all bodies one can join or leave at easy will – dying for your nation is seen as something that is fundamentally pure (and heroic). We will note in the upcoming images, that some of that symbolism, e.g. the use of skulls, shadows, a movement to light, are used within posters, and these were not produced in a cultural vacuum, but were drawing on longer term discourses - as with all types of language, the visual draws on the norms and assumptions of an established culture, and this is clearly demonstrated as the posters draw on established traditions, both in style and content.

Conversations about death were frequent in wartime – and when not all the facts can be published, it is natural that people will try and guess. During the first few months of war, particularly the first-few days, rumours were rife. Rumours included exaggerated numbers who died in bombings, the lack of wood resultant from the number of coffins made in preparation, and on bombings that were believed to have been hushed-up. Urging others not to spread rumours became a popular occupation as ‘[n]ewspapers harangued their readers, clergy their congregations, headmasters their pupils’.In the early days of the war, the Government was told the only real way to bring home to the public the real danger of careless talk was by ‘pictures which hurt’, but the scheme was turned down as ‘too tough and too realistic for the British public’. Norman Wilkinson’s realistic design (1940) & the second (from 1943) with a symbolic depiction of death, in some ways play upon the familiarity with marine landscapes, subverting the tradition, depicting destruction, rather than the magnificence of shipping. It was often difficult to be too realistic, as graphic images of death would not necessarily have been well received. [Use of Fougasse’s Humour].

Even in the serious posters - the victim is rarely visible in posters, or if he is, it is the risk of death that is posed, rather than the reality. Where the reality is shown, the human cost is rarely visible, rather a ship is seen sinking, or a plane is crashed….Exceptions to the rule, with depictions of individual death, were to be found were army posters. In 1945, however, a campaign aimed at soldiers returning from the fighting fronts was deliberately designed to be humorous, with the figure depicted in the bed deliberately drawn in a non-realistic manner, symbolic of the men who ‘shoot their mouth off’. It ‘was

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not policy to produce starkly realistic posters for men who already knew so much of reality’. Games was unafraid to subvert the realism of the image, and use abstract graphic techniques to provide visual links between ‘careless talk’/careless weapon handling.. and the victim. Drawing on psychological discourses, this was aimed directly at the soldiers, who were presumed to live with death on a far closer basis than civilians, and images could therefore be much harsher and more direct. You’ll note this is different from what we’ve just said – positive – democracy – allowed for such differences, negative – may have added to sense of confusion…

Death was not a key focus on my research, as it was largely conspicuous by it’s ever-present absence…. But it was something I was keen to return to, so I’m pleased at the opportunity that giving this paper has given me to revisit the material and think about how death is ever-present, although rarely acknowledged… When I was working for the University of Manchester, here’s a draft of a poster we created for a conference ‘War and our World’ – indicating the inextricable link between war & death – although this bottom/middle image we decided not to use – images of drama, but look too much like ‘real’ death, and that’s something that in the modern world we try and avoid coming face to face with… over time it has moved from being a natural part of life, to something that we frequently deny and try to ignore…

“In her book Death in War and Peace, Pat Jalland argues that Churchill’s propaganda broadcasts lauding the indomitable Blitz spirit were partly responsible for entrenching within our collective national psyche the sense that grief should be suppressed… As a result, says Evans, grief has become medicalised, rather than accepted as an inevitable response to a universal human condition. “The human emotions engendered by ‘ashes to ashes’ or a requiem Mass have saved people from the pits of despair as often as modern psychiatry,” he argues.”http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/10639359/Have-the-British-forgotten-how-to-grieve.html

Aberfan - 1966http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-150d11df-c541-44a9-9332-560a19828c47

Had been ongoing warnings, but the coal pit owners had ignored and threated the pit would close if complaints continued. Villagers said National Coal Board had ‘murdered’ children *Similarities to Grenfall. Lord Robens had tried to say not, eventually admitted ‘failure to heed clear warnings’ – went on to set up H&S at Work Act 1974

Survivor’s guilt, PTSD, 1000s of volunteers from around + the world’s media, trying to identify bodies – some unidentifiable (bodies in Welsh chapel, death certificates from chippie)

First broadcast live into people’s homes, 90k donations from across the world – “It reached a total of £1,750,000, an estimated £20m-plus today – only the Diana, Princess of Wales Memorial Fund has ever outstripped it.” Struggled to get access to the money with £150k taken to pay for removal of the tip to the coal owners! £500 per child, feeling ‘too much’ would have destroyed w/classes so unused to such money.

Waiting – with nothing able to do – was ‘the worst’. Need to talk about it (many didn’t) & set up choir/Young Wives Club.

Flowers sent from around the world at mass funeral, after which Queen/Prince Philip visited ‘proved that the world cared’.

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Photographer – uncomfortable but “In this case it’s pretty obvious what had happened was obscene; you wanted to show that this is exactly what happened so there could be no cover up, and that in my mind was a very powerful justification for what I was doing.”

Lockerbie, Zeebrugge, King’s Cross  - learnt from this tragedy re psychology.

Hannah Kowszun There was a really interesting programme (or series, can't remember!) by Ian Hislop a few years ago on the British public's relationship with emotion. He illustrated it by comparing the open sobs of men on episodes of Changing Rooms in the 90s with Aberfan, the first televised national disaster, where everyone was so stoic. He made some excellent points which I am completely ill-equipped to paraphrase! Perhaps if useful you could look it up??http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01n7rh4

Since Aberfan?Hillsborough (David Walker was there) changed things & do things – was church present?

What about public grieving for those we don’t know (ww1 we did, now don’t as we move more, etc.) and Diana - what has moved on since then?

I am very struck by how terror attacks in Paris/Brussels and Manchester have led to the response of “loving the place”. Sense of national identity … chance of birth?

24/7 News CycleNow, we have 24/7 news cycle, so if media was felt to be intrusive in 1966, what about in the digital age?

“But where does this leave the bereaved today [without rituals]? When Jo Smythe lost her five-year-old son to cancer, the internet became her lifeline. “It was such a relief finding people who had been through the same experience,” says Jo, a humanist, who channelled her grief into fundraising and volunteering at a cancer charity. “The support and guidance I found from real people online saved me, as I didn’t feel I could talk openly to anyone else about my son’s death.” “Facebook and the millions of photographs we take also mean there are endless ways to indulge in multimedia mourning.” Douglas Davies , same human suffering, “The difference may lie in the fact death feels “unrehearsed, because we’re used to feeling like we’re masters of our own destiny, and suddenly we don’t know what to do”.“ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/10639359/Have-the-British-forgotten-how-to-grieve.html

Flowers/Candles/Angelshttp://religionnews.com/2017/05/27/mourning-in-manchester-religious-and-secular-traditions-meet-and-meld .. “These vigils are a more contemporary, secular expression of ritual, with their ever-growing piles of flowers, candles and balloons left by people to honor the dead of the Manchester Arena atrocity. The laying of flowers and the lighting of candles do suggest Christian ritual, but they are the practices of people who are not necessarily members of a religion.” Since Diana died, become more secular. ““At least a quarter of the ‘nones’ do engage in prayer and you see expression of some kind of religiosity at times of horror and grief like this. When there is a pressure point something religious comes to the surface,” he said.” Woodhead = humanitarian – about being citizens of the city. Walker = well developed network of faith leaders ready to come together at speed.

What about the flowers/candles – pray for dead… intercede by saints.

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What’s the angels? Angels/going to heaven – started with Robbie Williams .. kids are angels, angel baby tattoos for miscarriage – semi secularised – not theology, cute fairies .

Nicola David People rushing to say 'U r wiv da angles now' - it has become a meme

“Flowers…became a visible means of displaying grief for dead people not in the immediate social circle of the sender.” https://theconversation.com/public-mourning-a-brief-history-35670

See photos of St Ann’s etc https://www.facebook.com/drbexl/media_set?set=a.10158471878400161.1073741953.656235160&type=3

(Not) Talking about DeathWhen mum died -“today we alienate the bereaved, treating grief as a private affair. I wanted a place to wail, light flares and chant incantations as old as the Earth, but got a distinct sense that society, at least, didn’t want me to behave like that.” http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/10639359/Have-the-British-forgotten-how-to-grieve.html

Indiv. grief you showed in public … don’t show our own, do we know who those people are as we passed? What is experience around private tragedy for those involved in these – they tend not to be the ones talking on the TV (or are they?)?

Organisations including ‘Dying Matters’, ‘Death Cafes’, CofE ‘Grave Talk’ encouraging people to talk about death more… mix of humanist, faith, etc.

#PrayForhttp://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/christopher-york/prayforlondon_b_11333740.html Pam Smith Interesting - brings to mind Jesus' recommendation to 'parade not thy piety before men'. I've stopped posting #prayfor hashtags or announcing that my prayers are with victims - that should be a given, as I am a person who prays. I am really concerned at the gulf between the overtly Christian response of praying and saying God/Love will win, and the questions of the bereaved, shocked and grieving. It can sound just too glib to be any help.

Heather Stanley It takes something quite specific for me to mention my faith at all when referencing any of these recent events online. I don't change my avatar, I would never tell anyone to do/not do something, but I just can't take the platitudes. Pray for, love wins, they're with the angels etc... I'm very anti-supressing anger and noisy, messy expressions of grief. Many of those well intentioned statements become platitudes, and, unintentionally usually, close down some really valid ways of reacting to events. Actually, love doesn't always win - the big picture doesn't matter to most people most of the time, and that's totally ok. It has become a parody and I think quite often does more damage than good. 

The only time I see those sort of postings and think, cool, is when it is from someone who it is very much how they live, how they constantly communicate, part of the message they are always projecting. When people who also shout and judge and shut down conversation say 'love wins' it bends my head.

Bex Lewis Heather Stanley in some ways find it so difficult to 'judge' why anyone does what they do - am interested in what they get out of it/why but I'm kinda like if that helps you a bit then does it cause problems for anyone else?

Heather Stanley Yup, understand. I guess *anything/everything* could *always* cause a problem for someone else and that means none of us would never say anything!  :) It is why I don't really like that THINK acronym for posting online which says "is it necessary, is it kind". It is rarely necessary that I open my mouth.... 

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I'm not sure it is even possible to pop something like #Prayfor up without it looking like an instruction to some people, a kind act to others, piety to more, and pointless to the rest. Sorry, this has gone a bit off topic!

Mark Longbottom Personally have an issue with so many people doing the 'pray for....' due to prayer being something I have no belief in, solidarity and support for sure.

Bex Lewis But in same way I don't have problem with people other/no faiths taking their approach ... why would it bother you? Genuine Qu BTW  ;-

)

Mark Longbottom It gets imposed by some people - even seen people agressively questioning those who don't change avatars or follow the crowd in sharing tags witj pray for xyz.

I have no debate over people having faith at all in fact see it as a positive - as long as it's not imposed. 

Can be a negative part of openly sharing everything online - I've no privacy set up to hide anything g it's easier nit doing certain things.

So the bother is when there is a corral ing of those who don't do as others wish.

Mourning Public Figures: Privatisation of Grief http://theconversation.com/public-mourning-a-brief-history-35670“The common thread in this public expression of grief is the untimely, unexpected deaths of people who are often in the prime of their lives; both the famous and the unknown.”Princess Diana/9/11/Madrid bombings 2004, etc. “These non-official responses to tragedy fill a need not always met by formal memorial services. Often such services don’t offer the opportunity for the general public to actively participate, and it is through actions, such as laying flowers, that the grief-stricken feel they have made more than a token effort.”

20th C – medicalization and institutionalisation of dying – funeral preparations moved from family to funeral directors. Death became more public, grief/mourning more private. Overt displays of grief = weakness.

“The Victorian era, at least, came with an instruction manual. Etiquette books described the minutiae of mourning. And in an increasingly secular society, religious rituals are being replaced by new rituals personalised to commemorate the deceased.”

Pam Smith I'm puzzled by the prevalence of 'passing' and 'passing away'. I recently started to feel as if I was committing a terrible faux pas by saying someone had 'died'.

Pauline Swindells I make a point of saying "died" rather than passed away!

Heather Stanley Me too. Died. Or murdered. Killed. Using the proper word is so important.

Hannah Johnson I didn't go to my first funeral until I was 20 something when my Great Grandma P died. When my Great Grandma B died, I was in the middle of my GCSE mocks and between Mum and I we decided that I wouldn't take the time off for the funeral but myself and my cousins would go up to the gravesite after school. Jaxon my boy is nearly 3. I'm not sure he understands what's going on but he's been to two funerals already both because I've wanted to go and say goodbye etc but not had childcare. Maybe that's a bad choice but he's been at the back playing quietly or sat next to me and not bothered anyone and in both cases the ladies we were saying goodbye to cherished Jaxon as if he was their own grandchild.

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Pauline Swindells Children have a marvelous ability to "normalise" death. I worked in a children's hospice for a decade so saw many deaths. The siblings coped, probably better than the adults, but the proper words needed to be used. I can remember one three year old asking where his brothers head was as his brother's body had been referred to as just that, "his body" so in his mind it was logical to ask where the head was!

Carrie Pemberton Ford Pam lament so impt it was good to see that being held by st james church

Princess Diana“Mourners, it seemed, felt they had grown up with her and had expected her to remain a part of their lives.”

Ayrton SennaAyrton Senna - https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/apr/30/ayrton-senna-death-funeral-formula-one, I was there, staying right next to Interlagos Race Circuit – always said others couldn’t understand it until Diana happened…

“Witnesses to this Mad Max remake of a grand prix lap of honour, the people of Senna's home town thronged the pavements and overpasses and the windows and parapets of their crumbling concrete canyons, applauding the passage of their champion, displaying their banners – one reading "Thank you, Senna, for making our Sundays so happy" – and shedding neither the first nor the last of their tears. Above them a dozen police and television helicopters hovered and circled, marking the motorcade's progress like a cloud of midsummer midges.” The HUGE queue to pay respects, the TV coverage, the half-mast, etc. A Catholic country, few heroes except sports heroes.

Manchester Manchester’s experience with the IRA bomb – the city survived that and had to get itself back on track, and although no one died, affected a lot of people’s lives afterwards, but with a sense of survival…

Was at Town Hall on the Weds after the vigil, watched the Vigil on FB. Tweeted some thoughts, inc Walker & ‘the poem’ (which has been around for ages), and feeling part of Manchester in a way that 12+ years ago wouldn’t have *Similar to why don’t associate as much with Syria – not been there.

http://ilovemanchester.com/2016/08/09/five-years-after-the-riots-how-the-city-fought-back-and-why-we-love-manchester.aspx - the riots of 2011 – like the IRA, rolled up sleeves and got on with it – sense of civic pride, someone created ‘We LOVE Manchester’ which has become so known now.

THE BEE – few people knew what this was about – but harks back to ‘the industrial city’ (hive of workers)– built into the Town Hall flooring , etc. http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/manchester-bee-symbol-meaning-tattoo-11793163 - worker bees – street art, etc. *Desire to be photographed with these, etc.

Watched the names of the young people emerge gradually via media digital outlets …

Silences: Civic Religion?“A moment of silence is a period of silent contemplation, prayer, reflection, or meditation. Similar to flying a flag at half-mast, a moment of silence is often a gesture of respect, particularly in mourning for those who have died recently or

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as part of a tragic historical event. Most commonwealth countries call it a minutes silence or a one-minute silence as that is the shortest period of silence that they observe after a tragic event. Silent prayer, including moments of silence practiced during other group activities, have been practiced by Quakers for more than 300 years. Since silence contains no statements or assumptions concerning beliefs and requires no understanding of language to interpret, it is more easily accepted and used than a spoken prayer or observance when persons of different religious and cultural backgrounds participate together.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moment_of_silence 1 minute traditionally, although may extend to minute for each victim, etc.

From WW1 “"On the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month, there may be for the brief space of two minutes a complete suspension of all our normal activities. ... So that in perfect stillness, the thoughts of everyone may be concentrated on reverent remembrance of the glorious dead," the king proclaimed.” https://mic.com/articles/98624/a-brief-history-of-the-moment-of-silence#.GjG8NbxuZ

““The absolute genius of the idea of the two-minute silence is that it is a silence,” Prof Adrian Gregory, a historian of the two world wars at Oxford University, has said, “and that means that what people think about during the two-minute silence is their own business … You can bring together a conventional patriot and a highly critical pacifist and they can do the same thing, but understand what they’re doing completely differently.” They both have to know about it, though.” “This tactful silence that surrounds our silences may be right and proper, but it is not necessarily what people need. “My view would be it is a failed social technology that rarely does the work we want it to do,” says Steven Brown, a psychology professor at Leicester University. “Silence works when it is performed on a small scale with people who have an ongoing relation to one another, not, I feel, when it becomes a national exercise, despite the doubtless good intention of producing a brief moment of national solidarity.” https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jul/03/what-merits-minutes-silence-remembrance

Pam Smith I'm increasingly uneasy about holding silences, 'suspending politics' and other public, collective demonstrations of respect. I don't know why - it just feels as if it's being orchestrated, an attempt to 'micromanage grief' as Lily Allen said (although I don't think this is what she meant). I'm also uneasy with Christians on social media attempting to explain God's role in all this, and the blanket offering of prayer. I think maybe we are shutting out lament.

Bex Lewis Yes, if we doing silences for this, what about that? Where are the boundaries - are people genuinely involved or want to feel a part of history? God/suffering a big topic - always has been!

Hannah Elizabeth Rose Mudge Yes I wonder if this is related to the more 'performative' nature of many aspects of life in general due to social media? Everyone feeling they have to have something public to say about something?

Nick Parish Absolutely agree about lament. A tendencies to 'Carry On, otherwise the terrorists have won' seems to me to run the very real risk of rushing past grief and lament in an effort to show fortitude. I think that's crazily dangerous.

Vanessa Harbour Everyone's grief now is public and a performance because of social media as Hannah mentioned and I think whether you want it or not. I am wondering also whether having a minute's silence for each event if this diminishes them when you have so many so

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close together - rightly or wrongly. I am not sure I haven't worked out my own answer to that. Just contemplating it. I can't bear the way the Sun has behaved towards survivors yet they are the one's organising charity record. Again how do I legitimise that? I find it all very challenging. Sorry this is a bit of stream of conciousness

Christina Welch Vanessa Harbour I would suggest this isn't quite correct. Back in the day people wore black armbands - very public (although of course the poor couldn't afford this so were marginalised in their grief) and to soem extend SM has mitigated this. Road side shrines are commonplace in some countries so again, very public and we did have them here at one time. We also used to have charnel houses so weren't so sqeemish about the dead either. It's very complex

Vanessa Harbour I can see your point Tina however what I meant was that with social media etc the stretch is so much further rather than keeping it within the neighbourhood which to a certain extent your black armbands etc still did do. I would say a black armband was an acknowledgement of grief, you were not necessarily expected to show any emotions, whereas now there seems to be a lot more emotion - probably for the best maybe who knows. But I am aware I am talking purely as a bystander and layman and must bow to you superior knowledge and am purely commenting on what I see and feel.

Christina Welch Vanessa Harbour you are right that the armband was social thing to show you were in mourning - too much grief (esp for men) would be frowned on - stiff upper lip and all that. I'm not sure about the showing emotion now though as people can see though false emotion, but SM does allow the sharing of emotion with friends (wider if you've got certain setiings on your FB account). It's very complex and I doubt much could be covered in a radio programme with multiple views. Claire Gittings wrote a great book on Death in England

Wayside shrines [what about park benches, etc somewhere for people to visit, has meaning for the person who is commemorated] and prayers for the dead [note what e.g. CofE produces ready for sharing]

When did we start using it more? 1950s in US, 1980s became common in UK – little concern for surrounding space - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roadside_memorial

Street shrines for people not known? St Eliz flowers as a shrine for people able to return to – but typically KNOWN

Rob Wylie We are exploring some of this for something we are doing at the holy biscuit linked to halloween this year... day of the dead, shrines, facebook memorial pages... how do we grieve, face death?

Pauline Swindells Death has become sanitised in our society, we see images of death & dying on our screens but when it affects us in real life we don't know how we are expected to react. We are "protected" from death, funeral directors can arrange everything so we don't have to face it. A few decades a go the dead were brought into the home before the funeral, people mourned with the family, curtains were drawn & everyone knew there had been a death, so shared some of the grief. Now there is little chance of doing this, people are afraid that they might be contaminated by it, so pull away from the bereaved. As Christians we can be as guilty of this, we talk about people "passing away" rather than saying "died". We never talk about Jesus "passing away" on the cross, we say he died on the cross, so why don't we do say this when talking about the dead? By "protecting" them we are taking them away from the reality of this situation.

Rob Wylie Interesting... i agree with a lot of that, but i think in the age of shrines where they are set up at the place the person died also makes death a reality. These are happening more and more... also loads of benches by the sea front where i live are dedicated to someone who has died and the flowers are regularly refreshed by loved ones... its like they have become places of pilgrimage and remembrance in the face of death.

Pauline Swindells Yes that's true, did you know that things council is supposed to remove road side shrines after 6 weeks, although it rarely happens!

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Religious Leaders I’d like to reflect too on the role of religious leaders in these latest tragedies. David Walker was on the steps of the town hall – but it was a civic show. Church there by invitation, not by right? And I’d be very interested in your thoughts about the vigil in London after the London Bridge attacks. I was talking to someone who said religious leaders were present but it was Sadiq Khan who fronted it all. Not even sure there were prayers. Will check. But faith groups all very visible in practical response to events. David/Linda/Sughra will all have masses to say on this. Linda – country doing non-religion v well, improvising. Churches not in leadership role… hmm, faith leaders … servant role? Congregation & community – vicars – practical & prayer…. St Clements. Serve community & RT stuff, etc strength of interfaith collab… doesn’t seem to matter who – get together .. Sighra – how Muslims allowed to respond to tragedies, now my public space … ownership/right to be here..

Mark Longbottom Definitely hearing atheists maybe that's down to who I am, respect people's faith at these times for sure but would suggest less band wagon jumping - sounds harsh but some people seem to feel the need to ho people they are following the consensus - is the consensus right though.

People seem to check in when I know they aren't close to a tragic event.

There are also different ways the media serve up the news as can be seen today after least nights event, I'm going on observations here and not making a point of any kind.

I was told off for working on the day Diana died and should have had more respect, that's because i was a street performer and not a train driver etc. Sad that she died but she wasn't really part of my life. 

Like everything technology just makes it easier to spread information and that's good, bad and ugly from governments shock that terrorists know how to use tech to people jumping all over it to show they care.

Silences are ok but definitely over done now and as for the term passing as suggested above for me it's not a good term, people die in my mind, they don't come back they don't go anywhere so that we are able to communicate with them as they would if passing through.

But who are people showing this grief to, is it the dead or to make themselves feel better.

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