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Paleo Magazine Podcast Episode 101

2015 Page !1

Podcast Episode 101

2015

Tony Federico: Hey, Paleo Nation. I’m Tony Federico and you’re listening to Paleo Magazine

Radio, the official podcast of the original Paleo lifestyle publication.

Today’s episode features the Bulletproof Executive, Dave Asprey, a man

equally known for Bulletproof Coffee and biohacking. Dave and I discuss the

differences between his Bulletproof Diet and Paleo; examples of how

technology can actually improve health; why avoiding anti-nutrients is a habit

to get into; what mycotoxins are, and why you should care about them; why

Europe and Japan send their reject coffee to the United States; and why he

doesn’t like cheat days.

In the second half of the show, Adam Farrah joins me for another installment

of Big Picture Paleo. Adam and I are both big fans of foam rollers, so we dive

deep into the benefits of myofascial release. So, grab a cup of buttered coffee

and kick back in your sensory deprivation chamber. Episode 101 of Paleo

Magazine Radio starts now.

{Music}

Tony Federico: Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Paleo Magazine Radio. I’m

here with the Bulletproof Executive, Dave Asprey. Dave, welcome to the

show.

Dave Asprey: Hey, Tony. Thanks for having me.


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Tony Federico: Well, this is a pleasure. I certainly have been wanting to get you on the

podcast for a while now. We had the opportunity to meet at Paleo f(x). And

the reason why this is such a pleasure is, I was moderating a panel, and I

believe it was on the subject of biohacking, or some such thing. But I think it

was probably the most fun that I had moderating a panel thus far.

And a big part of that is, your participation was great. I loved it. We did

something which we don’t normally do, which was run the audience through a

meditation experience, and you talked people through it, and how to do some

deep breathing. And I just really appreciated your willingness to step up and

make the experience fun and engaging and memorable for the people in

attendance. So, ever since then, I’m like, man, we’ve got to get this guy on

the show. So, I’m glad that we were able to make that happen.

Dave Asprey: It’s my pleasure to be here.

Tony Federico: {Laughter}. All right, man. So, as I said, first time on the program: I want to

give people an introduction to Dave Asprey; to the Bulletproof program. And

I think a good place to start is the Bulletproof Diet itself. And obviously our

listeners are well-acquainted with the Paleo diet. They know about eating all

their fruits, and vegetables, and grass-fed meats, and things of that nature.

There’s a lot of overlap with Bulletproof. Where are the differentiators?

Where are the things that really make Bulletproof different than Paleo, and the

key things that you want people to take away?

Dave Asprey: Sure. The Bulletproof Diet hit the New York Times best seller list—about

100,000 copies of it sold. And one of the big differentiators there is that it

derived from an anti-aging mindset. I’ve run an anti-aging nonprofit research


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and education group for a decade; and also from a fertility perspective,

including some Weston A. Price type of teachings, which are also precursors

to the modern Paleo movement.

Where it diverges from Paleo is in two big areas. One of them is that, I just

don’t believe that cavemen had mass spectrometers…

Tony Federico: They didn’t?

Dave Asprey: …and microscopes and things like that. So, I think we can do better than our

caveman ancestors. And one example there would be xylitol, which comes

from birch trees. And xylitol is not probably something that our cavemen

ancestors ate; yet, it’s a sweetener that doesn’t raise your insulin levels and

allows you to have a full spectrum of flavors that are out there.

I’m a huge proponent of Brain Octane Oil, which is not medium chain

triglyceride oil; it’s a subset of medium chain triglyceride oil that raises the

ketone levels in your blood much higher than coconut oil possibly can. A

caveman in a tropical environment would have eaten, say, whatever—two

tablespoons of coconut oil. But if, today, a biohacker on the Bulletproof Diet

eats two tablespoons of Brain Octane Oil, that is the equivalent of about 36

tablespoons of coconut oil, to get this kind of oil. You simply can’t get oil that

raises the ketones in your blood enough in the presence of carbohydrate.

So, what we’re doing is, we’re saying, we evolved to do these things; but, by

using science and technology, we can actually take advantage of what our

bodies were evolved to do, to make it do what we want, even though it’s not

necessarily what it would have done if we were just eating what cavemen ate.


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Tony Federico: So, maybe, rather than striving for an ancestral paradigm of health, you’re

trying to take it beyond that into a technologically-supplemented or enhanced

state of well-being.

Dave Asprey: That’s a good way of putting it. And there’s also this viewpoint in Bulletproof

that, actually, anti-nutrients are more important than micronutrients. They’re

both important. If you have a long-term micronutrient deficiency, you won’t

like how you feel.

But if you’re doing something lame like smacking yourself with anti-

nutrients, whether it’s from eating whole grains every day, or these other

micro – or, these other anti-nutrients that come from Mother Nature or from

manmade sources – one source of anti-nutrients is overcooking your protein

and fats, which is very common in Paleo. So, you do that, and you’re like, oh.

That’s not so good. It doesn’t matter that you made Paleo fried chicken. You

still fried it {laughter}.

Tony Federico: (Sounds like: That’s a shame).

Dave Asprey: It still was going to be inflammatory. So, cooking techniques matter, and

storage and processing techniques matter. And I’m one of the people

sounding the alarm about mycotoxins in food. And I have 1,200 studies about

one mycotoxin on the website here, and yet there are still some Paleo people

who are like, mycotoxins don’t matter.

I’m like, I just don’t get it. Because cavemen didn’t get mycotoxins. They ate

fresh food, or they ate no food. Or maybe they ate spoiled food; got sick;


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threw up. But they didn’t have a chronic low dose of these toxins. And that is

endemic in our food supply now, and it is harming our fertility; it’s harming

our cognitive performance. And it’s just bad for you.

Tony Federico: Well, let’s zero in on that. Because I think that that’s certainly a big

differentiator between Bulletproof and Paleo, is this discussion of mycotoxins.

Can you give us a little mycotoxin primer—a little breakdown? And then,

where are the most common sources, as you said, of these chronic exposures

to them?

Dave Asprey: Sure. Mycotoxins—it’s a fancy name for mold toxins. And whenever there’s

a mold or a fungus present, it tries to say, basically, this is my cheese

{laughter}. It says that by pumping out toxins.

Tony Federico: It’s very territorial.

Dave Asprey: It is. In fact, the first well-known mycotoxin is penicillin. And we discovered

that on a cantaloupe. And what they found in the laboratory was, wow, when

this mold is growing, it kills all the bacteria in the dish. Interesting. And what

happened what, the mold penicillium – which, by the way, does make one of

the really nasty toxins for humans; it also makes something that can save our

life. It’s not like all mold toxins are bad. It’s that the ones that are neurotoxic,

and the ones that cause oxidative DNA damage, and the ones that damage our

mitochondria—like the one most commonly found in coffee—those are

problems.


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And I’m working to eliminate those from our food supply as much as we can,

recognizing that you can never reach a level of absolute zero. Because one

part per trillion, one part per gazillion, is still going to be out there.

But what I’m finding is that, when you look at a global map of mycotoxins in

our food supply—and yes, we do track that, because all countries have limits

for which mycotoxins are allowed. But some countries have some limits for

some, but other countries don’t have limits for others. But we map this

globally because it’s such a major contributor to cancer, and it’s also

something that – the real reason we map it is that, if you want to raise

chickens or raise cows for food, if you feed them moldy grain, you don’t make

as much money. And this is well-documented, because they don’t grow and

because their baby cows basically get stillborn, and you can’t (inaudible).

Tony Federico: So, there’s some good financial motivation, so of course we’re tracking it.

Dave Asprey: Oh, yes. Well, we track it for animals. But there isn’t a financial reason to

track it for people. So, world governments put these limits in place in regions,

different amounts, and they don’t all agree with each other.

And that’s one of the reasons that I’m skeptical when people say, well, this is

a safe government level. It’s like, yes—in what country is that safe? Because

different countries have different economic definitions of safety, and I’m – my

definition is, what’s going to make me kick the most a-- [expletive] and live

the longest. That’s what I care about.

Tony Federico: You’re definitely more interested in that than the government is.


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Dave Asprey: You can say that.

Tony Federico: {Laughter}.

Dave Asprey: And when you look at one of these maps of where these things come from,

well, grains are the most – the biggest area. In fact, one of the reasons I

believe that the Paleo Diet is so successful in a lot of autoimmune conditions,

and a lot of GI issues, is that it’s inadvertently a lower-mycotoxin diet.

Because when you get rid of grains, you get rid of corn, and you get rid of

grain-fed animals that accumulate these toxins from things that grow on food,

you’re actually cutting out huge amounts of these mold toxins.

And what I would argue is that, if you cut out the rest of them as best you can,

by focusing on higher-quality chocolate, because chocolate’s a major source;

by cutting out beer, which is a major source of Ochratoxin A; and, yes, by

using lab-tested coffee, which I do sell and I have a financial motive to tell

you the truth about, and all that kind of stuff – or, you can say whatever. But

the bottom line is that I can feel the difference. I can measure the difference

in a laboratory. And that’s why I make all of my products mold-tested and

lab-tested to standards that exceed any government, because I think it matters.

Tony Federico: Now, you mentioned coffee beans. You mentioned chocolate and grains. Just

paint the picture for people and their – they might be thinking, well, where is

this stuff coming from? Would it primarily be due to the fact that these are

stored long-term – dark silos, and that’s basically a breeding-ground for these

molds? Is that what we’re dealing with? Is it a storage issue?


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Dave Asprey: It’s partly a storage – it’s also just an issue that, in nature, everyone wants

your starch.

Tony Federico: Oh, yes. They want to grab that starch.

Dave Asprey: So, if you’re a starch-bearing – some sort of plant, you can’t run away,

because plants don’t do that. And so, you tend to wrap your starch in stuff

that makes animals sick. And these are the anti-nutrients that are in whole

grains. And in Paleo, we all know about that. Well, when something does get

through there, one of the most common things that gets through is a fungal

infection. And we have rust on crops, and it’s a well-known agricultural issue

forever. Well, some rusts are toxic to people; some aren’t.

But when those rusts get in there, they’re actually getting in in the field. And

people don’t know this, but 98% of corn that you buy today, including the

organic stuff, has Fusarium growing in it. Fusarium makes well-known

mycotoxins, including (sounds like: fusarisin). And one of the reasons people

don’t tolerate corn as well as they’d like—they eat a dried corn product and

they don’t feel well—it may not be that they’re allergic to corn. It may be;

corn’s a common allergen. But it can also be because that batch of tortillas

had mycotoxins in them. It’s batch-dependent.

Tony Federico: Interesting. And you started going down the line of some of the health risks of

the mycotoxins. Can you go a little deeper into that, and really why we

should care about this subject?

Dave Asprey: Well, mycotoxins – the ones I’m talking about – by the way, there are tens of

thousands of them, and some of them are just not very harmful, or they don’t


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do much. Alcohol is a common mycotoxin. It’s what – one thing that yeast

makes, to make other stuff not eat its grain.

Tony Federico: Yes. I guess that would be true. It’s pretty protective.

Dave Asprey: And what we’re talking about here are actually secondary metabolites of

mold, which is maybe a technical differentiator. But what these are, are things

that would act as antibiotics. And a lot of them just act as what I call direct

toxins, in that they poison cells in the body. One of the effects they do is, they

attack your mitochondria, and they cause a flattening of the inner membrane

of the mitochondria, so you make less energy in your cells.

Tony Federico: Not a good thing if you want more energy in your life.

Dave Asprey: No, it’s not. And they also cause liver damage. In fact, the number one most

mycotoxic – or, sorry, the number one most cancer-causing toxin on earth is

aflatoxin, which is famous for being on peanuts, but it’s also in grain. Lots of

grain grows aflatoxin. And we talk about this in foods a lot. And I talk about

this in the Bulletproof Diet.

It’s even worse if it’s in the environment around you. I just did a documentary

called MOLDY, looking at the effects of mycotoxins growing in our homes; in

our buildings, when you inhale them. They’re even worse when you eat them.

But both can make you sick.

So, different people process different mold toxins in different ways and at

different levels. And what I’m finding is that it takes energy—it takes glucose

—in order to oxidize toxins. So, if you eat something that’s moldy, it’s going


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to cause your body to generate a demand for more blood sugar, so that you

can go to your kidneys or you can go to your liver and you can get rid of these

toxins. Humans are weak. Like pigs, in fact.


Dave Asprey: The reason for that…

Tony Federico: Just – no offense meant, but just objectively speaking.

Dave Asprey: {Laughter}. Exactly. I’m not talking about any specific humans {laughter}.

But humans and pigs have – a long, long time ago, we started using our

kidneys to get rid of toxins. Specifically, these mold toxins, but a lot of

environmental toxins too. These are normally – in most other animals, the

liver takes care of these. The liver’s good at getting rid of toxins; the kidneys,

not so good. So, we’re about 17 times more susceptible to these mold toxins

than rats are. Yet, they do most of the tests on rats. Rats have these giant

livers that can crunch through toxins, and they live in garbage and have

babies. When we live in garbage, we can’t have babies. And the reason for

this is that we use our kidneys instead of our liver.

So, when you look at the effects of eating mold toxins on pigs and pig fertility

and – oh, arterial lesions in pigs that are identical to the – basically,

atherosclerosis—they can induce those with mold toxins. In fact, one of my

favorite researchers who recently passed away—his name was A. V.

Costantini, World Health Organization researcher for 17 years—wrote a whole

book on heart disease and mold toxins in our food supply, and concluded that


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there’s a known cause of atherosclerosis. It is mycotoxins. That’s a direct

quote from his book.

Tony Federico: So, eliminating grains; getting the right kind of coffee beans, the right kind of

chocolate…

Dave Asprey: Spices are another major issue. Most people, including Paleo people, have

this box – like, one of those metal boxes of paprika, in the back of their

cupboard.

Tony Federico: I think I actually might have that exact box in my pantry.

Dave Asprey: {Laughter}. It’s like, we have to have it. And the thing is, all spices have the

really gnarly spores from bad mold on them, just by virtue of being spices.

Aflatoxin-forming spores are really, really common. And so, that’s okay,

because the spores probably haven’t generated if you have high-quality spices.

However, if it’s in one of those containers that you’ve opened, that may be

held over a steaming pot, and you sprinkled into the pot, and maybe you

didn’t seal it very well, and it’s been sitting there for a year or two—that stuff

will grow. And…

Tony Federico: So, you – basically, you’ve sprouted the mold spores.

Dave Asprey: Yes. This is happening. And I’m telling you, if you were to go out there and

get fresh paprika—which, by the way, is also a high-risk food for mold, even

when it’s fresh…

Tony Federico: Really?


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Dave Asprey: Because, well, it’s been dried somewhere. And dried peppers tend to have

high levels of aflatoxin in them. And I’m not just making this stuff up

{laughter}. There are studies from the agricultural side of the house, looking

at these levels around the world, because it matters. And by the time we get it,

we don’t pay attention to it.

And what I’ve found, because I lived in molds where – houses with toxic

mold, and I’m kind of a canary for this stuff—like, why do I feel different

when I eat that one, versus when I eat this other one? So, that’s why it’s kind

of a strange thing, where I could feel the difference, and a lot of people don’t

know that they’re feeling a difference. They just know, oh, I ate that meal and

I got tired. I ate that Paleo meal and I was kind of a jerk. Or, I had a half-

hour where I was kind of bleary, and I just had some coffee and I felt okay.

People deal with this all the time, and they don’t understand it’s because they

ate something that took glucose from their brain and shunted it to their liver

and kidneys to get rid of this toxin they eat. And the mindset is, oh, I can take

it. It’ll make me stronger. No, no, no. Oxidative DNA damage doesn’t make

you stronger. It’s cumulative. It causes cancer over time. There is no

argument any rational person can make…

Tony Federico: So, there’s no hormesis, as they say.

Dave Asprey: No. These are not hormetic. They’re direct toxins that just – they cause their

damage. Maybe you’ll filter them out efficiently; maybe you won’t. But they

never help you, even a little bit. They always make you weaker.


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Tony Federico: So, let’s talk about some of the Bulletproof foods. Because now I’m starting

to look at everything in my kitchen with a wary eye. What are some of the

lowest-risk for mycotoxin contaminants, in terms of foods that you might go

out and buy at the grocery store?

Dave Asprey: Grass-fed anything, as long as it’s not dry-aged. Now, this is a total eye-

opener for some people. Because we’ve all been taught that, at least in Paleo,

grass-fed meat—beautiful. Dry-aging is something you do. It’s like wine; it’s

so good. Well, when you dry-age a cow – and my cows eat grass that grows

in my front pastures, and they – the cows grow up next-door, and then we eat

them and put them in the freezer. It’s a good deal.

Tony Federico: Literally. So, we’re not – this isn’t a hypothetical. You could probably…

Dave Asprey: No.

Tony Federico: …throw a stone, hit the cow. It’s right there.

Dave Asprey: Yes. I’ve been to the place where the cows are butchered. I’ve put animals

through bandsaws. I’m – live this stuff. And – by the way, they were dead

first, just so we’re (inaudible) {laughter}.

Tony Federico: You don’t want PETA coming after you.

Dave Asprey: Exactly. But I’ve butchered animals that ate my grass, and then I ate the

animals. And I think that it’s important to be willing to do that, and to do it

respectfully.


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But when you age a carcass, it hangs there for a while, and it actually grows

black stuff on it. And that black stuff is mold. And it’s mold that eats meat.

Newsflash: we are made of meat. {Laughter}. Getting mold in your body

that eats meat is just not a good idea. And then, what they is – and it does

develop a nice flavor, and it gets more tender as the enzymes, and something

called hyphae—these are the roots of the mold—get into the meat. Then they

trim off all the visible mold. And this is particularly noxious: then they take

all that fat and stuff they trimmed off, and they render it to make beef tallow.

So, if you’re getting rendered beef tallow from grass-fed beef that was dry-

aged, you are almost always getting a load of mycotoxins that are fat-soluble.

Tony Federico: A nice, concentrated dose.

Dave Asprey: Yes. But if you’re taking an animal – I specify mine. I’m like, I would like to

have my cows hung for two or three days; no longer. Enough to allow the

meat to get a little bit tender, to bleed out, and to age a little bit. And then you

chill it slowly, not quickly. And I – on the Bulletproof Radio show I’ve

actually interviewed guys like Glenn from Alderspring—Glenn Elzinga, who

is a soil ecologist turned cattle rancher, about how to do this. Because it

actually matters. And then you eat this beef, and it tastes fresh and it’s – you

freeze it right away.

What we’re getting when we order grass-fed beef that ate GMO grass that

wasn’t high in nutrients, that’s then stored for six or eight weeks in these

vacuum-packed things so you can, quote, buy it fresh—sorry. Kill the animal;

freeze it so it stops decomposing; and then defrost it when you want to eat it,

and you’ll get less mycotoxins. But grass-fed beef is still wonderful, because

they didn’t bioaccumulate all the toxins.


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You can each chicken eggs, and these are good too, because even though

chickens eat grains and grains are full of toxins—you want to get the most

pastured chickens you can get—but the chicken naturally shields the egg from

these mold toxins as much as possible. Because the egg will be unsuccessful.

We have deformed, dead chickens, if you let the mycotoxin through. This is

one of the primary things that are affecting human fertility as well right now.

It’s just, we don’t know it, because the effect is hard to see.

The levels, for instance, in coffee, that Europe has limits for – five parts per

billion for one of the 25 toxins I test for. You can’t taste parts per billion. But

there are no limits in the US at all for that toxin in coffee. So, the stuff that’s

illegal to sell in Japan and China and Europe gets dumped in the US. And I

have actually world coffee experts…

Tony Federico: Thanks to globalization, we’re – the market’s working itself out.

Dave Asprey: And I have a former head of the Specialty Coffee Association of America, the

largest body of coffee – on video saying, yes, I was there when a thousand

containers were rejected from Japan and sent to the US, because it was legal

to sell it there. So, these toxins—they’re out there. But you want animals like

chickens who can filter them out, because you’re not going to taste five parts

per billion in an egg; but the chicken’s immune system will filter that out for

you. But the chicken that ate the toxic grain is not food and you shouldn’t eat

it.

The other thing that works: grass-fed butter. Vegetables. Wow, amazing

{laughter}. Eat lots of vegetables.


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Tony Federico: That was going to be my question: which veggies are okay?

Dave Asprey: Veggies are generally pretty good. The problem is that if the veggies are,

quote, fresh, but they’re on sale at the front of the store and looking a little bit

wilted, they’re going to explode in spores in the next couple of days. In fact,

if you want to really feel the difference, go buy raspberries that are on sale.

Because raspberries are almost always a little bit moldy.

Tony Federico: (Inaudible) funky pretty quick.

Dave Asprey: They just – fresh ones. Yes. Buy frozen ones. Frozen stuff is pretty amazing

that way. And you will feel the difference. The first thing you’ll feel,

probably, if you’re not in tune with your body so much, is if you eat

something that’s full of toxins, like raspberries or coffee – do you ever have

one of those times where you really have to pee, and you go to the bathroom,

and you didn’t pee that much, and it was kind of white? Well, it turns out that

– here’s what happens when you eat toxins like these.

I mentioned your bladder and your kidneys—those are the ones that are

affected. And the toxin that’s most common in coffee and beer, and a lot of

grains—this Ochratoxin A, it’s called—that hits the kidneys. And the body

sees this toxin coming through and goes, oh, my God. It’s an emergency.

Tony Federico: Interesting.

Dave Asprey: Step one: get glucose. Step two: pull hydration from the blood. Pull plasma.

Give me liquid. Because what do you do with the toxin? You dilute the toxin


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so it has less damage. And then it sends a signal to the body that says, urgent

need to pee, even though the bladder’s not full.

And then you’re like, okay: so, now I use some sugar to help process the

toxin, which may cause a blood crisis, may cause you to be tired, and may

cause a sugar craving. And then you got a little bit dehydrated, because it

pulled plasma; and then you had to pee all of a sudden, even though you

shouldn’t have had to pee, because you just peed a half-hour ago. Newsflash:

you ate moldy raspberries; you ate coffee that was – or, you drank coffee that

had mold in it, or whatever else the other source of the toxin was.

This is your body talking to you. You just need to know what the signal is.

This doesn’t happen randomly. You didn’t just have to pee. There’s a reason,

and it’s because your body is trying to protect your kidneys and your bladder

from something that’s pretty gnarly.

Tony Federico: Man. All right. So, I’ve got a lot to think about, and cleaning out my spice

drawer is definitely top on the list.

Dave Asprey: Yes.

Tony Federico: So, you mentioned MOLDY, which is the documentary. And this is something

that I could – not necessarily relate to, but we had a water leak in our house,

and we had the remediation crew out immediately, and that was…

Dave Asprey: Unfortunate.


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Tony Federico: That was one of the things where the plumber that I talked to is like, you’ve

got to do this right now. So, water leaks: boom, those guys are there, pulling

up carpet and running industrial-strength dehumidifiers that day. But I’m in

Florida. So, I mean, you can look around. You drop water anywhere, there’s

going to be mold real quick. So, this documentary – this is getting into some

of those household – some of those sick homes, I guess you could say, and

breaking down some of that. What else are we going to see when we check

this movie out?

Dave Asprey: Well, what you’re going to see is a dozen top doctors talking about what it

does to your brain and your body; and a dozen people who’ve been affected.

These are college professors; physicians—high-performing people. A very

successful guy in New York. And all of them, all of a sudden, moved into a

place that was moldy, or had a water leak, and their lives just went to hell.

And the reason for this is that, one of the experts in the movie says 50 to 80%

of houses have water damage in them. And 25 to 28% of us have genes that

make us permanently damaged by these mold toxins in our environment,

unless you take steps to reverse the chronic inflammation they cause. The rest

of us, they just cause cancer, and heart disease, and a bunch of other things.

They’re not the only causes of those, but they’re major contributors. So, this

is the number one source of kryptonite in the environment around us, that no

one knows about. And it’s very common.

So, what this movie does is, it lets you see that this is real and it applies to

you. And it also makes it really clear that, in the same household full of these

toxins, we have one case – two physicians living in the same house. One of

them feels it; the other one doesn’t. But it’s affecting both of them negatively.


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Just, one of them is a canary; the other one isn’t. So, the idea that, well, you

don’t want to have these in your house, especially if you’re looking at having

kids, or you have young kids around. These really affect the next generation a

lot more than they do you and I. And these are just big variables in overall

performance. They have nothing to do with diet. This has to do with what we

breathe.

And I’ve talked with a few people about the nutritional side of mycotoxins

there. But eating them is bad, and breathing them is bad. And if we can just

do a little bit to reduce, it’ll be better. And that’s part of the whole Bulletproof

philosophy in the Bulletproof Diet too. Some days, you’re just not going to be

100% Paleo. But there’s a spectrum that says, all right, if you’re going to

cheat, rather than just having the Tim Ferriss-style eat-whatever-you-want

cheat day, which is going to cause food cravings for four days afterwards…

Tony Federico: Yes, man. That thing – that’s – honestly, that’s never worked out for me. It

causes a whole collapse in my mental and emotional settings.

Dave Asprey: Yes. I love Tim. I love what he’s doing to bring that thinking to large

numbers of people, and there’s a huge amount of respect there. It’s just, that

idea of a cheat day—for me, it just causes cravings. It takes too much

willpower. So, the idea there is, on the Bulletproof Diet is, okay, so, there’s a

menu, and there’s nothing good to eat on it. How do you choose the least

harmful thing? So, there’s a spectrum for everything.

And the same goes with these toxins. You’re not going to eliminate every

toxin from your life, because you’re not going to live in a bubble. But when it

doesn’t cost you anything, when we just build processes in to make sure that


2015 Page !20

there’s not mold in your house; to make sure there’s not mold in your food –

you were going to eat something anyway; might as well pick the right one.

That’s all I’m saying. And that’s different than Paleo, which is defining

perfection. I’ll present people with a path of graceful degradation.


Dave Asprey: So, all right, I wasn’t going to be Paleo today; but at least I didn’t eat tofu.

Tony Federico: Exactly. Yes. Why not? I mean, go for something that’s going to cause the

least amount of damage. Life – no one’s perfect. So, you’re going to go off

plan, quote-unquote. Why not go off-plan in an intelligent and an informed

way? I like it.

Now, I know you’ve got to go here in a little bit. You’ve got a big event

coming up. Do you mind just taking a moment to tell us about the Bulletproof

Conference that’s about to start?

Dave Asprey: October 23rd through 25th in Pasadena, California. Three days. 1,000 people,

at bulletproofconference.com. We’re going to have dozens of people with

equipment that help to hack the human body. It goes far beyond just food and

supplements, and things like that. These are electrical devices—things that

put you in a flow state. Hyperbaric oxygen. Basically saying, Mother Nature

provides a signal to the body, and that we’re evolved to attenuate to that

signal. By changing the signal that goes into the body to be much stronger

than what Mother Nature would provide herself, we can do things to the

human body that are shockingly effective.


2015 Page !21

And that’s what we’re doing. We’re making it real, so you can feel it. And

it’s only about a half-hour from the Bulletproof Coffee Shop in Santa Monica,

California, where we serve food based on the Bulletproof Diet. Anyone who

eats Paleo can go there and find stuff they’ll love.

Tony Federico: Hey, that sounds great, man. Can’t wait to hear more about how the

conference all shakes out. I’m sure you’ll be putting information out on your

blog. I highly recommend people to go to bulletproofexecutive.com. And if

they want to get a whole breakdown of the Bulletproof Diet that we were just

talking about, if you go to bulletproofexec.com and join the newsletter, you’ll

get a full, detailed PDF that gives you all that information.

So, you’re putting this information out there. You’ve got the book. Got

another book coming up. You’ve got a conference. So, you’re doing your

part to educate the masses. Dave, I appreciate it. Appreciate you coming on

the show, man. And good luck with everything that you’re doing.

Dave Asprey: Thanks so much. It’s been a pleasure. Looking forward to seeing you at the

next Paleo f(x).

Tony Federico: That was the Bulletproof Executive, Dave Asprey. To find out more about

becoming Bulletproof yourself, including blogs, podcasts, and the Bulletproof

Diet Roadmap, go to bulletproofexec.com.

Just a quick note: the Bulletproof Biohacking Conference has already taken

place. We recorded this interview in October, prior to the conference. So,

that’s why we referred to it as an upcoming event in the interview.


2015 Page !22

Coming up next on Paleo Magazine Radio, Big Picture Paleo with Adam

Farrah. I’m Tony Federico, and you’re listening to PMR.

{Music}

Tony Federico: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another installment of Big Picture Paleo

with Adam Farrah. Adam, welcome back to the program.

Adam Farrah: Hey, Tony. What’s going on?

Tony Federico: Not much, man. Not much. Before I hit record, we were just chatting off-

mike, and the subject of the RumbleRoller and laminated butt cheeks came up.

And…

Adam Farrah: {Laughter}.

Tony Federico: …I think, out of context, both of those things might sound a little funny. But I

think once we kind of get into it, it’ll make a little bit more sense. So, let’s

just start off with the problem. What is the issue? And I think what we both

agree is that the issue is too much sitting down.

Adam Farrah: Yes. So, definitely, I mean, everyone talks about the sitting thing. Sitting’s

the new smoking. And I’ve been playing with all sorts of working positions,

and standing desks, and different arrangements for a bunch of years now. And

one of the things that I’ve been finding is that, even standing, even stretching,

even yoga, there’s other problems that might need to be addressed, especially

when we’ve spent a lifetime of sitting. So, that’s sort of the…


2015 Page !23

Tony Federico: So, you’re telling me there’s no cure-all; there’s no quick fix?

Adam Farrah: Definitely not. Because you’ve still got a – even if you’re standing, you’re

not doing further damage, but there’s still a lot of damage we need to be

thinking about correcting.

Tony Federico: The residue.

Adam Farrah: Yes. Definitely. The dysfunction that’s crept into our bodies. And, yes – so,

then the butt laminate thing is actually a term I got from Kelly…

Tony Federico: Let’s just get right into that.

Adam Farrah: Yes – I got from Kelly Starrett. And I’d never – I heard it, and it made sense,

and stuff. And then when I really started digging into this – because I was still

having trouble. Okay, well, I’m standing and I’m doing all this yoga, and I’m

doing all – I started a stretching routine out of 4-Hour Body by Tim Ferriss.

So, I was really getting after everything. And I was still having problems. I

was still having pain. I was still having weird sciatic pain, which I’ll get into,

because that’s really interesting, the way that works. But basically – so, Kelly

Starrett described it as a butt laminate. Which is basically, on your glutes you

have a bunch of different muscles, and they’re all criss-crossing on top –

they’re layered. They’re these layered muscles on your behind. And Tony,

you can probably speak to that even more than I can. But you have all…

Tony Federico: Yes. There’s – I guess what we’re getting at is, there’s not just, quote-

unquote, the glutes. It’s not like you have two big hams that are just


2015 Page !24

individual muscles. There’s multiple layers of muscles that we collectively

refer to as the glutes.

Adam Farrah: Yes. Exactly. And then, on top of that, the sciatic nerve is actually buried

underneath all of those. And so, what happens is, we sit and sit and sit, and

these muscles start to get laminated together because they’re – they’ve got so

much pressure, and they’re spending so much time being pressed. And so,

they press together. They get tangled up, for a non-technical term. And they

can actually put pressure on the sciatic nerve. So, a lot of times sciatic pain is

just because these muscles are all pounded down, and flattened out, and

they’re pressing on that nerve. So – and I’ve had a lot of problems with

sciatic pain over the last couple of years.

Tony Federico: So, those naturally smooth and gliding, sliding muscle surfaces get glued

together and trap that nerve—start causing some pain; some inflammation.

So, what was your experience with sciatica, or with sciatic nerve pain?

Adam Farrah: Yes. So, it was really bizarre. And I don’t know. Who knows? This’ll

probably help some people that had no – that could get no relief from this.

But, basically, I would – and it kind of happened while I was writing my book

{laughter}. I wonder why. But I was just sitting too much, and working too

much.

And what started happening is, it would alternate from side to side. So, it

wasn’t, where my left side is messed up. It would be – some days it would be

the left side; some days it would be the right side. Some days, yoga would

relieve it. Some days, yoga would cause it. Some days, stretching would fix

it. Some days, stretching would make it worse. Some days, I would be in so


2015 Page !25

much pain I couldn’t walk. Some days, I would train and have a – after

training, have my upper hamstrings would – right where the glute goes into

the hamstring, it would knot up, and I couldn’t even stand up straight. I was

having all these weird things.

And you could never pinpoint it. Because, well, I’m stretching; I’m doing

yoga every night. How much more can I do? And I could never really

pinpoint it. It would go away for weeks or months, and I’d be, oh, okay.

That’s all fixed. And then it would come back. And, like I said, alternating

sides. So, I never really knew – last time it was more pronounced on the right

side, but a year ago it was happening a lot on the left. Yes. So, that – it was a

tangled—no pun intended, it was a tangled mess to sort out.

Tony Federico: So, would you say you’re in a better place now? And I think that what

seemed to help, and from what I gather, is getting on the RumbleRoller and

really just tenderizing the meat a little bit.

Adam Farrah: Yes. I mean, I definitely – we talked a while back about my Yogibo bean bag

chair. So, I threw my couch out. I no longer have a couch. I have a standing

desk. I mean, the amount of sitting I do is dramatically reduced. And then,

jumping on the RumbleRoller, which is a foam roller with – basically, with

spikes on it. And I found that. I found Kelly Starrett’s Super Nova, I think, is

the ball. He’s got that – it’s that big, blue ball with some spikes on it. Any of

these spiky things. And I find different ones are – different one – so, one

works for one thing, one for the other.

But I’ve I found that just rolling my glutes and hamstrings on the

RumbleRoller—really going at it for an hour; just put the TV on and watch


2015 Page !26

something I want to watch, and just feel around and just, like you were saying,

absentmindedly roll on this thing—it – I mean, the feeling when I get off it is

incredible. Because my whole – everything feels alive. You can feel the

blood flowing. Everything changes. And the sciatic pain has pretty much

gone away.

Tony Federico: That’s awesome, man. It’s interesting. We did a little RumbleRoller product

review in Paleo Fitness, which obviously, if you’ve been listening to this

podcast, you know is available on iTunes. It’s a sister publication of Paleo

Magazine.

And, looking into it, the creators of the RumbleRoller—they were looking for

a way to provide the benefits of massage without a masseuse. How can you

create a level of self-care that is close to – and of course, you’re always going

to – I don’t know if you can really ever replace a skilled massage therapist.

But something that’s at least close to the benefits of a deep tissue massage, or

actually having a therapist work on you.

I mean, it’s certainly more economical for most people, I think, to invest $80,

$90, or whatever it is, for a full-size RumbleRoller, versus $80, $90 per

massage; or even if they’re getting a better deal than that, it’s probably not

much better of a deal than that. So, having something like this—it’s just

creating – it’s a powerful tool in your self-care arsenal, I guess, is what we’re

seeing.

Adam Farrah: Yes. And as far as the – I mean, I – one of my best friends is a massage

therapist, and she’s worked on me a bunch of times. And she’s amazing. But

what I’ve found with the RumbleRoller is, if you can situate yourself right on


2015 Page !27

it, you’re basically putting all your body weight onto it. And there’s no way –

I mean, as awesome as your massage therapist is, there’s no way anybody can

sustain that kind of pressure for any length of time. So, it actually is – it can

be deeper than a deep tissue massage. And then you get – you can do it every

day if you have to, which…

Tony Federico: And I think that that’s probably the biggest piece, is…

Adam Farrah: Exactly.

Tony Federico: If the damage was done day-by-day-by-day, of course undoing the damage is

going to have to be a day-by-day-by-day process.

Adam Farrah: Exactly. And that’s, I think – and, I mean, just in this case and generally, I

mean, Paleo-wise, it’s – I mean, if you still have a dysfunctional life 20 hours

out of the day, even that four hours you’re putting in may – I mean, it’s

awesome, but there’s so – it’s like, the more stuff you can be doing to reverse

the damage you’ve done – and I think probably after a year or two of this,

maybe I won’t have to do it for an hour or two a day, or want to. But in the

beginning, yes. Because you’re going to backslide. I’ve done it, where I’ve

rolled myself all out, I feel amazing, and I go sit in the car for 30 minutes and

I feel like c--p [expletive] again.

So, it’s definitely – you’re fighting a battle, because there’s so much – it’s

gone so far in the other direction that you’ve got to put a lot of time in upfront,

I think, to pull it back.


2015 Page !28

Tony Federico: Well, hey, man, we’ll include a link to the RumbleRoller for everyone

listening today so they can go check that out. And obviously, we don’t have

any financial connections to them. It’s purely a great product, and one – I’ve

got one at home. I do think, before we go, one thing that’s worth mentioning

is, I made a mistake of purchasing the extra-firm version of the RumbleRoller.

Thinking, of course, that I’m a bada-- [expletive].

But I found that it was a little bit too much for me to handle. And even though

I was comfortable with a firm foam roll, this is a whole different level. So, if

someone’s listening to this and they haven’t RumbleRolled before—and I’m

sure you’d back me up on this—I would go with the softer touch, and go with

the standard, regular-density RumbleRoller.

Adam Farrah: Yes. Absolutely. And the other thing I was going to say is, I start off very

slow. So, you do not want to lay on this thing and roll yourself. You want to

– I sit on it, and gently move around. I mean, it’s like warming up for a

workout.

Tony Federico: You’ve got to warm it up, yes {laughter}.

Adam Farrah: You’ve got to warm up. You’ve got to get the blood flowing. And, yes, I use

the standard RumbleRoller. I have the big one and the little travel one. But,

yes, it’s been hugely helpful. And I’m just finding in general that these

pressure-point, spiky sorts of implements—sitting on them, working on them,

seems to be, for me, more effective than just the foam rolling. I don’t know if

it’s because I’ve got so much damage that I’ve got to hit it harder. But, yes,

the spiky stuff seems to be really helpful for me.


2015 Page !29

Tony Federico: Well, you certainly – there’s layers. It’s like that quote from Shrek. It’s like

an onion: you start peeling them back. And I think a flatter – a traditional

foam roller that doesn’t have any projections or knobs or knuckles poking out

from it—that might get the tissue moving initially. But if you really want to

go in deep and create some real change, I think you might have to step it up

and get something with a little more ferocity, such as the RumbleRoller.

Well, hey, Adam. Thanks for joining us, man. I’m going to go ahead and hop

on my RumbleRoller now, and we’ll talk soon.

Adam Farrah: I’ll be right behind you. Thanks, man.

Tony Federico: All right, Paleo Nation. That’s going to do it for today’s episode. Next

week’s show features Ben Greenfield, and things get a little groovy. Here’s a

preview.

Ben Greenfield: CBD is going to primarily have antioxidant properties, anti-inflammatory

properties, and then—and this is really useful for a lot of people—

antispasmodic, antiepileptic, and relaxing properties.

Tony Federico: To find out more about the potential health benefits of cannabis and cannabis

extracts, you’re going to have to tune in to next week’s show. Until then, you

can check out the full archive of PMR and PMR Bites by visiting

paleomagonline.com. While you’re there, you can also learn more about

Paleo Fitness Magazine, the new digital sister publication of Paleo Magazine.

In the current issue of Paleo Fitness, you can read articles like, “10 Tips to

Balance your Paleo Lifestyle,” “How to Master the Training Mindset,” and

“How You Can Melt Away Chronic Pain.”


2015 Page !30

Each content-packed issue of Paleo Fitness is only $2.99, which is less than a

cup of Bulletproof Coffee. But just in case you’re not convinced that the price

is well worth it, we’ve made it so that you can check out our free, two-minute,

all-access preview of each issue, so you can try it before you buy it.

{Music}

Paleo Magazine Radio is brought to you by the Paleo Media Group. Our

show music features the song “Light It Up” by Morgan Heritage and Jo Mersa

Marley. Paleo Magazine Radio is produced by me, with additional editing and

transcription services provided by AudioFile Solutions.

If you enjoy listening to Paleo Magazine Radio and Paleo Radio Bites and

want to show your support, please subscribe to us on iTunes and leave a rating

and review. Each time you leave a rating and review, a little bell rings and a

caveman gets his wings. If you have an idea for a show, please email it to

[email protected] or tweet it to us @paleomagazine. Until next

time, I’m Tony Federico, and on behalf of everyone at Paleo Magazine, thank

you for listening.

{Music}

THE END

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