jhanas v. vipassana - page 4 - dhamma wheel

Jhanas v. Vipassana - Page 4 - Dhamma Wheel

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tiltbillingsPosts: 21231Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Jhanas v. Vipassana

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by tiltbillings » Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:08 pm

Alex123 wrote:

tiltbillings wrote:

Even worse are those who get waylaid by their jhana experience into thinking they have attained more than they have. It is all too easy to shape one's meditative experience to be in line with one's expectations and beliefs.

Same thing with "corruptions of insight".

Certainly, which is why one should never hang onto anything achieved and why working with a teacher is a big help. Way too many people fool themselves with assumptions of ariya status, and even worse publicly proclaiming it.

tiltbillings wrote:

Which is why working with an experienced teacher is a very good idea, but even that is no guarantee against a misapprehension of the jhana experience.

Same thing with "vipassana" practices as well. One may get a good understanding of Abhidhamma and wrongly believe that one is an Aryan.

Of course. As I like saying there is nothing worth hanging onto in terms of one's meditative experience.

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tiltbillings wrote:

The reality is that "insight methods" are not incompatible with jhāna, unless one is talking about the more highly absorbed understanding of jhanas.

Whats wrong with using a highly absorbed jhāna for insight? When you emerge from it you could do your favorite Mahasi or U Ba Khin techniques.

It can be done that way, but it is not a necessity. I was taught highly absorbed jhana by a Mahasi Sayadaw trained teacher. I gave it up.

.

++++++++++++++++This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

daverupaPosts: 5319Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm


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by daverupa » Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:24 pm

tiltbillings wrote:


Whats wrong with using a highly absorbed jhāna for insight? When you emerge from it you could do your favorite Mahasi or U Ba Khin techniques.

It can be done that way, but it is not a necessity. I was taught highly absorbed jhana by a Mahasi Sayadaw trained teacher. I gave it up.

The underlined portion puzzles me. If a "jhana" isn't sammasamadhi, then calling it "jhana" is almost a misnomer.

The italicized portion: sammasamadhi isn't necessary, then? Or you must mean wrong samadhi, surely, while jhana is sammasamadhi.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.








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- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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daverupa wrote:

tiltbillings wrote:


The underlined portion puzzles me. If a "jhana" isn't sammasamadhi, then calling it "jhana" is almost a misnomer.

Then be puzzled. What constitutes jhanas, as any number of threads here will show can be rather vexed. Any number of folks here make a distinction between commentarial jhana, which is the highly absorbed sort and a more fluid sutta jhana. See: http://www.leighb.com/jhanantp.htm

Let me also make it clearer. It is not that the highly absorbed jhanas can not be used for cultivation of insight. It is that the sort awareness necessary for insight is not necessarily possible within them, according to some.

The italicized portion: sammasamadhi isn't necessary, then? Or you must mean wrong samadhi, surely, while jhana is sammasamadhi.

Well, if jhana can be misapprehended (as the sutta says), then it is not samma samadhi at that time.

.



Alex123Posts: 3354Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm


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by Alex123 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:27 pm

1) Awakening requires N8P. Not Noble 7Fold path, or worse: Noble 1 fold path.2) N8P includes samma-samādhi3) samma-samādhi is defined as 4 Jhānas.Therefore Jhānas are required with all other 7 components.

As for the depth of Jhāna. My opinion is to go as deep as you can and develop as much wisdom as you can, and not be overly concerned with "what state have I reached"? Attainments don't come with billboard signs which say "You have achieve 1st Jhāna... That was Sotapatti magga attainment... That was that insight stage... etc" . Your power of wisdom and observation may




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Jhanas v. Vipassana - - Dhamma Wheel


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be required to investigate these thing, and so is with "depth" of concentration. As long as you do it correctly, go as deep as you can, or as deep as is most effective for you.

tiltbillings wrote:

I was taught highly absorbed jhana by a Mahasi Sayadaw trained teacher. I gave it up.

Ven. Vimalaramsi has said that he went through all insight know ledges, reached all that the method claimed, practiced Mahasi method for like 20 hours a day, for a long time - and that didn't lead him to Nibbāna... (I don't agree with his description of "Jhāna" and certain things he teaches).

'in 1988, I went to the famous mediation center-Mahasi Center-in Rangoon, Burma. There I did an intensive eight-month retreat, practicing for 22 hours a day...In 1990, I returned to Burma for an intensive two-year retreat, alternating walking and sitting meditations for about 18 hours a day. The teacher there told all the yogis to extend our sittings, so I began setting for longer periods of five to eight hours (without moving). After I had experienced all the stages of meditation that a Vipassana practitioner is supposed to experience, I remained unsatisfied." - http://www.dhammasukha.org/About/teacher_background.htm

Very impressive!

"The “Bhivamsas” he studied with were U Pandita, U Lakkhana, U Silinanda, U Janaka, U Dhammananda, U Dhammapia. He further studied with The Mingun Sayadaw, who had memorized the entire Tripitika, Sayadaw U Thatilla, who had a pure audiographic memory. Other teachers for long periods of time were K Sri Dhammananda, Venerable Punnaji, Ajahn Yanitra, Ajahn Buddhadasa, Ajahn Cha Lee, Ajahn Santititho, and many others in Thailand ."http://www.dhammasukha.org/About/teache ... ntials.htm

And apparently he had access and was taught by some of the best teachers...

I guess he was missing something... If only he did lots of Jhānas at that time, maybe it would be different.

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."



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Alex123 wrote:

. . . Ven. Vimalaramsi has said . . . .

Given his demonstrable lack of respect and disparagement for the teachers whose names he loves to drop, this is one individual for whom I have no respect.

The important issue is neatly spelled out by Leigh Brasington:

http://www.dhammasukha.org/About/teacher_background.htm

http://www.dhammasukha.org/About/teacher_credentials.htm









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> There are a number of different ways to interpret the ancient literature about the Jhanas. > We don't really know exactly what type of Jhanas the Buddha and his disciples were practicing. > Since it is very clear that the Buddha did not regard the Jhanas as anything more than a tool, what is really important is not so much which version you learn, but that you apply the jhanic state of mind to insight practice, either while still in the Jhana or immediately thereafter

Jhanas v. Vipassana is really an argument about preference, not real substance.

.



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by daverupa » Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:20 am

Are there cases of arupajhana attainment without rupajhana attainment in an individual, such that only jhanas 5-8 are available for practice?






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by Alex123 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:21 am

tiltbillings wrote:

There are a number of different ways to interpret the ancient literature about the Jhanas.

Why not try both kinds (light absorption, and heavy absorption). On the way to heavy absorption, the light absorption stage will be passed anyways.

tiltbillings wrote:

Since it is very clear that the Buddha did not regard the Jhanas as anything more than a tool...













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- Awakening requires N8P. - N8P includes samma-samādhi- samma-samādhi is defined as 4 Jhānas.-Therefore Jhānas are required with all other 7 components.


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Post

by tiltbillings » Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:46 am

Alex123 wrote:

tiltbillings wrote:

There are a number of different ways to interpret the ancient literature about the Jhanas.

Why not try both kinds (light absorption, and heavy absorption). On the way to heavy absorption, the light absorption stage will be passed anyways.

Why no go with what works for you and not assume that that must be the way it should be for everybody and that everything else is wrong?

tiltbillings wrote:

Since it is very clear that the Buddha did not regard the Jhanas as anything more than a tool...


And as we have seen, there is no firm consensus about the jhanas.

.




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by Alex123 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:50 am

tiltbillings wrote:











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Alex123 wrote:



If they don't believe in what the Buddha taught, then they can have different ideas on importance of Jhānas as culmination of N8P.

If light ones don't work, then hard ones may. Whatever works.




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Alex123 wrote:

tiltbillings wrote:

Alex123 wrote:



If they don't believe in what the Buddha taught, then they can have different ideas on importance of Jhānas as culmination of N8P.

"They" believe just as much as you or anyone else does in what the Buddha taught, but what "they" believe may not necessarily line up point by point with your point of view, and I have certainly seen nothing here that recommends your point of view, your interpretation, over everyone else's. Opinions and experiences vary.

If light ones don't work, then hard ones may. Whatever works.

That is what I said, and it is a matter of experience. The notion of "jhana vs vipassana" is not really meaningful.

.










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by Alex123 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:08 am

tiltbillings wrote:

They" believe just as much as you or anyone else does in what the Buddha taught, but what "they" believe may not necessarily line up point by point with your point of view, and I have certainly seen nothing here that recommends your point of view, your interpretation, over everyone else's. Opinions and experiences vary.

Opinions are opinions, but the suttas are clear:

"And what, friends, is the noble truth of the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress? Just this very noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration...."And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration. - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"In whatsoever Dhamma and Discipline, Subhadda, there is not found the Noble Eightfold Path, neither is there found a true ascetic of the first, second, third, or fourth degree of saintliness. But in whatsoever Dhamma and Discipline there is found the Noble Eightfold Path, there is found a true ascetic of the first, second, third, and fourth degrees of saintliness - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... tml#fnt-54

People of course may reject the suttas, but then it is they who don't agree with the suttas.






http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.141.than.html

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.141.than.html

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html#fnt-54





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Alex123 wrote:

tiltbillings wrote:

They" believe just as much as you or anyone else does in what the Buddha taught, but what "they" believe may not necessarily line up point by point with your point of view, and I have certainly seen nothing here that recommends your point of view, your interpretation, over everyone else's. Opinions and experiences vary.

Opinions are opinions, but the suttas are clear

And how the suttas are interpreted is going to vary.

.



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groundPosts: 2592Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:01 am


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by ground » Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:32 am

I think the issue here is mainly a linguistic one. The nuances that make the difference seem not to be definitely expressible in terms and terminology.

In the suttas we have several different types of "concentrations" and meditative states and it is not quite clear how these exactly relate to each other.E.g. Signless concentrations vs Jhana vs Vipassana? Or "Dwelling in emptiness" vs mindfullness vs concentration?

Kind regards

To



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by Alex123 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:33 am

tiltbillings wrote:


Such as, "When Buddha taught to do X, he really taught not to do X" ? ?



















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Alex123 wrote:

tiltbillings wrote:


Such as, "When Buddha taught to do X, he really taught not to do X" ? ?

No. Now you are simply being argumentative. What might vary is what "x" means, as we see with the varied opinions about what jhana means. See:


and as Leigh Brasington stated:

> There are a number of different ways to interpret the ancient literature about the Jhanas. > We don't really know exactly what type of Jhanas the Buddha and his disciples were practicing. > Since it is very clear that the Buddha did not regard the Jhanas as anything more than a tool, what is really important is not so much which version you learn, but that you apply the jhanic state of mind to insight practice, either while still in the Jhana or immediately thereafter.

.



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groundPosts: 2592Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:01 am


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by ground » Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:42 am

If one wants to go from A to B and needs a car for that it may be better not to get obsessed with the descriptions of color and type of the car but to take as the relevant measure whether the car functions in a way that it may take one from A to B. The measure is the progress made with the car not the wording of the descriptions of color and type of the car.

Kind regards


Po

by Ben » Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:02 am

















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tiltbillings wrote:

That is what I said, and it is a matter of experience. The notion of "jhana vs vipassana" is not really meaningful.

That is absolutely correct. "jhana vs vipassana" presupposes an assumption that one only requires only samatha or only vipassana for liberation. That doesn't seem to be supported by the Suttas, the ancient commentarial literature nor the writings of later scholars. Both samatha and vipassana support each other - as anyone who has any experience will tell you. Having said that, there are instances recorded in the suttas of individuals who practice 'dry insight', however, these individuals still require some samatha to develop sampajjano. THe commentarial, perhaps Abhidhamma literature, the arising of the sotapanna magga and phala arise with the jhana factors. So, even if one has not attained first jhana before hand or is not in the absorption state of jhana when one averts one's attention to the rise and fall of phenomena (vipassana), jhana occurs with magga and phala of sotapatti. It is one of the reasons that some vipassana teachers will get their students to try and develop moment-to-moment samadhi, or neighbourhood samadhi before moving to vipassana. Another reason why this is employed is so that the student is well established in vipassana before they experience jhana. The experience of real jhana is seductive and without first being established in the insight exercises of vipassana, one can easily mistake the jhanas as the final goal and be seduced by the pleasurable state and be stuck there.

Anyone who has had any depth of experience will tell you that both samatha and vipassana are interdependent and both are indispensible.kind regards

Ben

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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JackVPosts: 93Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:19 am


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by JackV » Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:42 pm

Nibbida wrote:

There is no general consensus on this issue. Some teachers recommend jhana first and then doing vipassana, others recommend dry insight by developing access concentration and using that to develop insight through vipassana. Both are legitimate and effective ways. I'm not sure that any one is better than the other. Richard Shankman does a thorough and balanced job of talking about this in his book The Experience of Samadhi.

My personal preference is to develop jhana first. When the hindrances are held at bay, vipassana becomes very effective. The development of jhana has many beneficial effects on a person's



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mood and attention which carry over into everyday life. Whatever the mind dwells on becomes the inclination of the mind. However, the most convincing reason for me is that dry vipassana is notorious for having a difficult time through the tougher insight knowledges, though certainly not in all people. The emotinal and cognitive effects of jhana can greatly mitigate that. On the other hand, people can get potentially preoccupied with the bliss and peace of jhana that they don't go on to do the insight practice needed for awakening. However, with the guidance of a teacher, this tends not to be a problem.

But to each their own.

Just a quick question on this.

I personally agree with the logic of trying to realise Jhanna before Vipassana. Being able to focus ones attention for a large period of time will surely make Insight easier or clearer.

My question is though what system of practice leads to Jhanna? I currently am focusing on the rise and fall of the abdomen, noting each rise as such and each fall as such. This I know is considered Vipassana; the temple which instructed me in this method considers it as such. So can this sytem or method lead to Jhana or is it simply for Insight? This is what always confuses me. Initially I was focusing on the sensation of air entering and leaving the nostrils and the instructor at the temple told me that this is focusing on the air element as opposed to something else and as such I should - for what of a better word - switch up.

As always, everytime I read any thread on here I get very confused.

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by daverupa » Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:48 pm

JackV wrote:

My question is though what system of practice leads to Jhanna?

Anapanasati, hands down.












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JackVPosts: 93Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:19 am


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by JackV » Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:16 pm

daverupa wrote:

JackV wrote:

My question is though what system of practice leads to Jhanna?

Anapanasati, hands down.

Ok. So what should I focus on during meditation? I'm not sure of these different elements that the lady at temple was talking about etc. Should I just be mindful of breathing as a whole?I will still keep on with the Vipassana as well but I have always been aware that my focus, attention etc could be increased, like a work out of sorts, should I practice anapanasatti.

Can someone advise?

Here where a thousandcaptains swore grand conquestTall grasses their monument.

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