how many has god killed
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ÂTRANSCRIPT
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
I kill ... I wound ... I will make my arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh. -
- Deuteronomy 32:39-42
The table shows two numbers: the number given by the Bible, if any, and an estimate, when no biblical number is available.
Grand totals are shown below.
Biblical number 2,552,452
Estimate 25 million
6 July 2012 Note: Since a billion or so Christians (Catholics and Eastern Orthodox) accept the deuterocanonical books as canonical, I'm revising the list to include God's killings as told in
these books. When I finish with that, I'll revise the DWB book accordingly. And I suppose I'll eventually have to separate God's killings into two lists: one for the Catholics and one for the
Protestants.
Killing Event Scriptural Reference
Biblical number
Estimate
1 The Flood of Noah Gen 7:23 - 20,000,000
2 Abraham's war to rescue Lot Gen 14:17-19 - 1000
3 Sodom and Gomorrah Gen 19:24 - 2,000
4 Lot's wife Gen 19:26 1 1
5 The Shechem/Dinah love story/massacre
Gen 34:1-31
Judith 9:2-3
2 1000
6 Er for being wicked in the sight of the Lord
Gen 38:7 1 1
7 Onan for spilling his seed Gen 38:10 1 1
8 God's seven year, world-wide famine Gen 41:25-54 - 70,000
9 The seventh plague of Egypt: Hail Ex 9:25 - 300,000
10 God killed all first born Egyptian children
Ex 12:29-30 - 500,000
11 God drowned the Egyptian army Ex 14:8-26 600 5,000
12 Amalekites Ex 17:13 - 1,000
13 Who is on the Lord's side? Ex 32:27-28 3,000 3,000
14 God plagued the people because of Aaron's calf
Ex 32:35 - 1,000
15 God burns Aaron's sons to death Lev 10:1-3 2 2
16 A blasphemer is stoned to death Lev 24:10-23 1 1
17 God burned people to death for
complaining Num 11:1 - 100
18 God plagued the people for
complaining about the food Num 11:33 - 10,000
19 Ten scouts are killed for their honest report
Num 14:35-36 10 110
20 A man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day
Num 15:32-35 1 1
21 The opposing party is buried alive (with their families)
Num 16:27 3 9
22 250 burned to death for burning
incense Num 16:35 250 250
23 For complaining about God's killings Num 16:49 14,700 14,700
24 The massacre of the Aradites Num 21:1-3 - 3,000
25 God sent snakes to bite people for complaining
Num 21:6 - 100
26 Phinehas' double murder: A killing to end God's killings
Num 25:1-11 24,002 24,002
27 The Midianite massacre: Have you saved the women alive?
Num 31:1-35 6 200,000
28 God slowly kills the Israelite army Dt 2:14-16 - 500,000
29 God the giant killer Dt 2:21-22 - 5,000
30 God hardens King Sihon's heart so he
can kill him and all his people Dt 2:33-34 1 3,000
31 Og and the men, women, and children Dt 3:3-6 - 60,000
of 60 cites
32 The Jericho Massacre Jos 6:21 - 1,000
33 Achan and his family are stoned and burned to death
Jos 7:10-12, 24-26 1 5
34 The Ai massacre Jos 8:1-25 12,000 12,000
35 God stops the sun so Joshua can kill in the daylight
Jos 10:10-11 - 5,000
36 Five kings killed and hung on trees Jos 10:26 5 10,000
37 Joshua utterly destroys all that breathes
as God commanded Jos 10:28-42 7 7,000
38 Jabin, Jobab, and all the people of 20 cities
Jos 11:8-12 2 20,000
39 The Anakim: More giant killing Jos 11:20-21 - 5,000
40 The Lord delivered the Canaanites and
Perizzites Jg 1:4 10,000 10,000
41 The Jerusalem Massacre Jg 1:8 - 1,000
42 Five massacres, a wedding, and some
God-proof iron chariots Jg 1:9-25 - 5,000
43 The Lord delivered Chushanrishathaim Jg 3:7-10 1 1,000
44 Ehud delivers a message from God Jg 3:15-22 1 1
45 God delivers 10,000 lusty Moabites Jg 3:28-29 10,000 10,000
46 Shamgar killed 600 Philistines with an
ox goad Jg 3.31 600 600
47 Barak and God massacre the
Canaanites Jg 4:15-16 - 1,000
48 Jael pounds a tent stake through a sleeping man's skull
Jg 4:18-22 1 1
49 Gideon's story: The Lord set every man's sword against his fellow
Jg 7:22 120,000 120,000
50 A city is massacred and 1000 burn to death because of God's evil spirit
Jg 9:23-57 1,001 2,000
51 The Ammonite Massacre Jg 11:32-33 - 20,000
52 Jephthah's Daughter Jg 11:39 1 1
53 42,000 killed for failing the "shibboleth" test
Jg 12.4-7, Heb 11.32 42,000 42,000
54 Samson murders 30 men for their clothes
Jg 14:19 30 30
55 Samson kills 1000 men with the
jawbone of an ass Jg 15:14-15 1,000 1,000
56 Samson kills 3000 in a suicide terrorist
attack Jg 16:27-30 3,000 3,000
57 A holy civil war (called by rotting concubine body part messages)
Jg 20:35-37 65,100 65,100
58 The End of Judges: Two genocides and 200 stolen virgins
Jg 21.10-14 - 4,000
59 God kills Eli's sons along with 34,000 Israelite soldiers
1 Sam 2:25, 1Sam 4:11
34,002 34,002
60 God smote them with hemorrhoids in
their secret parts 1 Sam 5:1-12 - 3,000
61 God killed 50,070 for looking into the
ark of the Lord 1Sam 6:19 50,070 50,070
62 The Lord thundered great thunder upon the Philistines
1 Sam 7:10-11 - 1,000
63 Another Ammonite Massacre (and another God-inspired body-part
message)
1 Sam 11:6-13 - 1,000
64 Jonathan's very fist slaughter (not counting the one before)
1Sam 14:12-14 20 20
65 God forces the Philistines to kill each other
1 Sam 14:20 - 1,000
66 The Amalekite genocide 1 Sam 15:2-3 - 10,000
67 Samuel hacks Agag to death before the Lord
1 Sam 15:32-33 1 1
68 David or Elhanan killed Goliath 1 Sam 17.51, 2Sam 1 1
21.19
69 David killed 200 Philistines for their
foreskins (to buy his first wife) 1 Sam 18.27 200 200
70 The Lord said to David, Go and smite
the Philistines 1 Sam 23:2-5 - 10,000
71 God killed Nabal (and David got his wife and other stuff)
1 Sam 25:38 1 1
72 David committed genocides for the Philistines
1 Sam 27.8-11 - 60,000
73 David spends the day killing Amalekites
1 Sam 30:17 - 1,000
74
God kills Saul, his sons, and his men
because Saul didn't kill all the Amalekites
1 Sam 31:2, 1Chr 10:6
4 100
75 David killed the messenger 2 Sam 1.15 1 1
76 David killed Rechab and Baanah, cut off their hands and feet, and hung up
their dead bodies
2 Sam 4.12 2 2
77 God helps David smite Philistines from
the front and the rear 2 Sam 5:19-25 - 2,000
78 God killed Uzzah for trying to keep the ark from falling
2 Sam 6:6-7, 1Chr 13:9-10
1 1
79 David killed 2/3 Moabite POWs and enslaved the rest
2 Sam 8.2 - 667
80 The Lord gave David victory wherever he went
2 Sam 8.5, 10.18 65,850 66,850
81 David killed every male in Edom
2 Sam 8.13, 1 Kg
11.15-16, 1 Chr 18.12, Psalm 60:1
15,000 65,000
82 Thus did David unto all the children of Ammon
2 Sam 11.1, 1 Chr 20.1
- 1,000
83 God slowly kills a baby 2Sam 12:14-18 1 1
84 Famine and human sacrfice: Seven 2 Sam 21:1-9 7 3,000
sons of Saul are hung up before the Lord
85 David's mighty men and their amazing killings
2 Sam 23, 1 Chr 11 1,403 3,400
86 A couple hundred thousand die because David had a census
2 Sam 24:15, 1 Chr 21:14
70,000 200,000
87
Solomon carried out the deathbed wish
of David by having Joab and Shimei murdered
1 Kg 2:29-34, 2:44-46
2 2
88 A tale of two prophets 1 Kg 13:11-24 1 1
89 Jeroboam's son: God kills another child 1 Kg 14:17 1 1
90 Jeroboam's family 1 Kg 15:29 - 10
91 Baasha's family and friends 1 Kg 16:11-12 - 20
92 Zimri burns to death 1 Kg 16.18-19 1 1
93 The drought of Elijah 1 Kg 17.1, Lk 4.25, James 5.17-18
- 3,000
94 Elijah kills 450 religious leaders in a
prayer contest 1 Kg 18.22-40 450 450
95 The first God-assisted slaughter of the
Syrians 1 Kg 20:20-21 - 10,000
96 God killed 100,000 Syrians for calling him a god of the hills
1 Kg 20:28-29 100,000 100,000
97 God killed 27,000 Syrians by making a wall fall on them
1 Kg 20:30 27,000 27,000
98 God sent a lion to kill a man for not smiting a prophet
1 Kg 20:35-36 1 1
99 God kills Ahab for not killing a
captured king 1Kg 20:42, 22:35 1 1
100
God burned to death 102 men for
asking Elijah to come down from his hill
2 Kg 1:10-12 102 102
101 God killed King Ahaziah for asking the 2Kg 1:16-17; 2Chr 1 1
wrong God 22:7-9
102 God sent two bears to rip apart 42 boys
for making fun of a prophet's bald head 2 Kg 2:23-24 42 42
103 The Lord delivered the Moabites 2 Kg 3:18-25 - 5,000
104 A skeptic is trampled to death 2 Kg 7.2-20 1 1
105 Another seven year famine 2 Kg 8:1 - 7,000
106 Jehoram of Israel 2 Kg 9:24 1 1
107 Jezebel 2 Kg 9:33-37 1 1
108 Ahab's sons: Seventy heads in two
heaps 2 Kg 10:6-10 70 70
109 Ahab's hometown family, friends, and priests
2 Kg 10:11 - 20
110 Jehu killed Ahaziah's family 2 Kg 10.12-13, 2 Chr 22.7-9
42 42
111 Jehu and his partner kill the rest of Ahab's family
2 Kg 10:17 - 20
112 Jehu assembles the followers of Baal
and then slaughters them all 2 Kg 10.18-25 - 1,000
113 Mattan the priest of Baal and Queen
Athaliah 2 Kg 11.17-20 2 2
114 God sends lions to eat those that don't fear him enough
2 Kg 17:25-26 - 10
115 An angel killed 185,000 sleeping soldiers
2 Kg 19:34, Is 37:36 185,000 185,000
116 God caused Sennacherib to be killed by his sons
2 Kg 19:37, Tobit 1:21
1 1
117 Josiah killed all the priests of the high
places 2 Kg 23.20 - 100
118 Another holy war 1 Chr 5:18-22 - 50,000
119 God killed a half million Israelite soldiers
2 Chr 13:17-18 500,000 500,000
120 Jeroboam 2 Chr 13:20 1 1
121 God killed a million Ethiopians 2 Chr 14:9-14 1,000,000 1,000,000
122 Friendly Fire: God forced "a great multitude" to kill each other
2 Chr 20:22-25 - 30,000
123 God made Jehoram's bowels fall out 2 Chr 21:14-19 1 1
124 God killed Jehoram's sons 2 Chr 22:1 - 3
125 Ahaziah (of Judah) 2 Chr 22.7-9 1 1
126 Joash, the princes, and army of Judah 2 Chr 24:20-25 1 10,000
127 God destroyed Amaziah 2 Chr 25:15-27 1 1000
128 God smote Ahaz with the king of Syria 2 Chr 28:1-5 - 10,000
129 God killed 120,000 valiant men for forsaking him
2 Chr 28:6 120,000 120,000
130 The fall of Jerusalem 2 Chr 36:16-17 - 10,000
131
The Purim killings
God hath done these things
Esther 2-9 (KJV),
Esther 10:4 (Douay-Reims)
75,813 75,813
132 God and Satan kill Job's children and
slaves Job 1:18-19 10 60
133 Hananiah Jeremiah 28:15-16 1 1
134 Ezekiel's wife Ezek 24:15-18 1 1
135 Judith cut off a sleeping man's head Judith 13:6-10 1 1
136 The Judith massacre Judith 15:1-6 - 1000
137 Annanias and Sapphira Acts 5:1-10 2 2
138 Herod Acts 12:23 1 1
139 Jesus Rom 8:32, 1 Pet 1.18-20
1 1
Total 2,552,452 24,712,019
Posted by Steve Wells at 4/10/2010 04:16:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to Facebook
Reactions:
120 comments:
psybermonkey said...
This is quite impressive and I cannot thank you enough for going through in continuing to modify this table. May I make a suggestion though? When I often debate people on God's morality and use
examples of unjustified murder in the bible, the ones that have the best chance at getting through to them are obviously those which are the MOST clearly unjustified - which
include the killing of children and innocent people/civilians. Such examples are bears mauling 42 children, Jephthah sacrificing his daughter, God
killing King David's child to punish David, God inflicting thousands if not millions of civilians with tumors, Moses' army killing women and children, etc.
Would you be willing to make a smaller chart or color code particular killings on this one which show God's most clearly unjust killings - which apologists should have the hardest
time finding excuses for? It would be a big time saver for people like me looking for the best examples to depict his barbaric character.
Thanks!
Sun Apr 11, 01:07:00 PM 2010
skanksta said...
Great stuff Steve - you've created a wonderful resource for logic. Now your task is documenting the animal death and suffering caused by this monster. Or
are you gonna do the Koran next ? Come on - work to do - no rest for the wicked....!
Mon Apr 12, 04:08:00 AM 2010
Brucker said...
Steve, I don't recall, but have I ever told you that among many evangelicals, the belief is that the population of the world at the time of Noah was in the billions? This is usually figured due to the idea that the extremely long ages of the antedeluvian forefathers should
indicate extreme health, including excellent fertility. Imagine a world where people have lifespans averaging somewhere around 700 years, and they're mutliplying like rabbits. In
short, your estimate for the flood may be way too small for literalists.
skanksta, as I'm certain I've said before, the work of estimating animal deaths is essentially insurmountable. You've got to consider the enormity and complexity of the
Israelite sacrificial system, and realize there's just no way to figure it out. It's easily in the billions if not trillions. (Not to mention trying to estimate animals killed in the flood; see above.)
Mon Apr 12, 08:55:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
psybermonkey, thanks for the suggestion. I'm working on it. I hope to have a post with God's killings ranked with a five star scale of nastiness later today.
skanksta, I'd like to make a list of God's animal killings and I may do that someday. But it's going to be kind of boring. All the sheep, and goat, and bull slaughters! Still, it would be an impressive list.
Of course, I'd also like to get to the Quran and Book of Mormon. I feel kind of guilty
about neglecting them. Brucker, I'd never heard that before. The human population at the time of the flood was
in the billions? Do you have a link where that idea is expressed? I'd like to add a note about it on the flood post.
Mon Apr 12, 09:12:00 AM 2010
Brucker said...
This guy gives some discussion, but on a quick scan, I can't figure out his conclusion: http://ldolphin.org/popul.html
Mon Apr 12, 10:05:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
That is too funny! So God drowned 9 billion people in the flood? (And the author says he's being conservative.)
I guess I should revise my numbers.
Mon Apr 12, 10:19:00 AM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
There's no way in hell that nine million people were alive at the time these half-crazed theologians spectulate... mostly because at no point in history, until now, has the
population of Earth ever exceeded a billion.
Wanna know what actually caused so many people on Earth, today? Centuries of inbreeding. That's right, the Hapsburgs had it right; however, it was not through brother-sister relationships, but more of distant-cousin- in-the-same-village/tribe/township
relationships, that humanity "divided and prospered" .
Archeological facts don't fit with the sacred texts of these hare-brained schemers, however, so they have to rejigger the facts to their satisfaction... oftentimes, with the blatantly amusing results documented above.
Mon Apr 12, 11:43:00 PM 2010
teavee said...
Voted at Flood post. Seems to work.
Tue Apr 13, 12:33:00 AM 2010
Andrew said...
> And the author says he's being conservative or "Conservative"
Thu Apr 15, 07:01:00 AM 2010
The Boy Who Couldn't Fly said...
Incredible. Thanks so much for supplying such a massive amount of ammo. Although I'm long past trying to "win" an argument with a true believer, I can't help imgining that this
list would shake the foundational beliefs of the best (worst) of them.
Them: "God loves us!" Us: "What about (hyperlink to site)?"
Them: "They weren't US!"
Thu Apr 15, 10:41:00 AM 2010
damian said...
Not only did you leave a good moral deal breaker for Christianity, but you dealt another blow by pointing out the iron Chariots. So much for omnipotence. If Satan just learns to
drive a tank, then it looks like the Cristian myth will be a ton brighter.
Wed May 05, 09:40:00 PM 2010
Robert said...
Steve, The Book of Mormon (though fraudulent, probably like 99 percent of the bible)is full of battles and killing - my partner is a Jack-Mormon. The Koran too is just riddled
with devouring flesh eating the swords.
Wed May 12, 08:51:00 AM 2010
Lewis said...
I just found your site today--FABULOUS! As an Atheist working in an ofc of "believers," I am sick and tired of having their hogwash shoved in my face. I've known for a very long time that the Bible is 99% hateful, racist BS. Now, thanks to your
AMAZING efforts, I can pinpoint specific examples of it. THANK YOU!!! Please keep up the GREAT work!
Sun Aug 22, 12:07:00 PM 2010
Robert said...
Stunning animals before slaughter is permitted in Islam, not in kosher slaughter. Mohammed condemned cruelty to animals.
Animals are not supposed to see other animals of the same species slaughtered. These rules are not always obeyed.
Thu Aug 26, 12:03:00 AM 2010
agema-makedonin said...
Yahweh is a God of war as it is clearly stated in Exodus 15:3. But his concept in the bible shows clear patter of evolution:
http://www.godweb.org/fosdickguide.htm
Sun Sep 05, 02:10:00 AM 2010
Bill Hartley said...
Just a quick post from an Evangelical.
Interesting stats. I'm going to use them during a teaching time at our church tomorrow. I'll be interested to see how believers synthesize these truths.
I'm not quite sure why you take the time to work through statistics concerning a God you don't believe, and from a source you do not give credence to, the Bible.
For those who might believe it, Genesis 6 shares these words from God in light of his
creation of man: "The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that EVERY inclination of the thoughts of his heart was ONLY evil ALL the time (emphasis mine). The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his
heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, 'I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth — men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground,
and birds of the air — for I am grieved that I have made them.'" ... Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight and was full of violence. God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. So God said 'I am going to
put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.'"
I share this in light of common secular research that claims that over 100 billion people have lived on earth. That would mean God has specifically killed .0024% of the
population (though I would say that 100% of our race dies under the sovereign hand of God). To me, this stokes my understanding of God as graceful, given his anger,
disappointment and pain with the human race. I hope that you also give some thought to the main theme of the Biblical story - about a
God who creates a rebellious world, and goes to great lengths to save it, not leave it to its own self-destruction. We are all on death row, unless someone intervenes. I believe God
has done so. All the best,
Bill, Mesa AZ
Sat Sep 11, 01:33:00 PM 2010
Daz said...
"a God who creates a rebellious world, and goes to great lengths to save it, not leave it to its own self-destruction"
Assuming you ever come back to check for replies...
See, this is the bit that some of us have trouble with, when you folks start trying to use this as a guide to morality. He created the rebellious world, knowing it would be rebellious, tried to save it from destruction (by who? they had stone-age nukes?), then
destroyed it himself, killing, one would assume, a large number of sinless children and unborn babies.
If you can't see the irony in this, and the idiocy of using it as a model to teach moral
behaviour, you are truly lost.
Tue Sep 14, 01:43:00 AM 2010
creaturagirl said...
bill, your last paragraph sums it all up very well for me; which is to say that none of what you said made any sense whatsoever to me. also, asking the question why a non believer
would go to the lengths to put up this information doesn't compute. it makes perfect sense to me. it is to show the absolute hypocrisy in "religious" texts. theologians study these texts but that doesn't mean they take them as facts.
lots of religious people, or devout people do wonderful things in small communities. i really think that is wonderful. however, i don't have to put up any proof here to back up
what i am about to say: more violent acts are done in the name of religion than in the name of any other thing. and that goes for ALL religions, especially christianity. put that in your pipe and smoke it....
Wed Sep 15, 10:44:00 AM 2010
Maeryn said...
@ Bill Hartley Regardless of anything these other commentators say, they still are not disproving the existence of God.
I found this chart mildly amusing. and rather enjoyed it. Really puts in a new kick in
regards to fearing our Lord. One problem I noticed, is that this chart does not take into consideration the fact that God
ends all of our lives. Taking us Home or letting us wander for eternity is His choice alone.
Cheers.
Wed Sep 15, 11:43:00 AM 2010
Sebby said...
@Maeryn
The existence of God does not need to be disproved. I would suggest you read up on a concept called 'burden of proof'.
Even then, evolution and the big bang provide a way to scientifically and empirically
explain the creation and development of the universe. Humanity no longer needs to invoke God as the supreme creator as we did in the days
before science.
All this chart shows is that were God to exist (an assumption for which there is no proof, no need and little basis), he is a cruel, temperamental and vindictive character who is hardly worthy of our worship.
Peace
Sat Sep 18, 11:14:00 PM 2010
edwin (aka theven or stein) said...
wow this is great!
Mon Oct 25, 11:15:00 PM 2010
Harri said...
As far as I understand, God has killed every single individual (animals too) that has ever lived.
Sun Nov 14, 05:32:00 AM 2010
Annette Gallagher said...
Not arguing with your estimates, but how did you arrive at these numbers? I was raised a
Baptist preacher's daughter, and I PROMISE that is the first question anyone in my family would ask.... and they'll probably deride the answer as "the work of Satan" anyway, but I'd like to have one! Interesting table - thanks for the info!
Sun Nov 14, 07:08:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Annette, As you probably noticed, there are two set of numbers: one that I call the "Biblical number" and the other that is an "estimate". The Biblical number includes only those
numbers that are given in the Bible, leaving out things like the victims in Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc. The estimate column includes estimates for these killings (20
million flood victims, 2000 inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah, etc.).
Sun Nov 14, 08:17:00 AM 2010
Lojiko said...
Roughly equivalent to Stalin.
Sun Nov 14, 09:12:00 AM 2010
Robken said...
OK I have been reading your comments and most are intelligently based. Though, I would like to throw out another hypothesis (the bible being one of course). Our universe
is about 13 billion years old and if the big bang occurred one second later we wouldn't exist as we are today on planet Earth. To have a bang there must be space, the space that was there at the time of the big bang became empty because of the massive reduction of
matter and anti matter. Therefore, there have been uncountable numbers of big bangs and each creating its own universe. Now come the interesting part: because of evolution we
are what we are today which has only taken less than a million years which is a blink to fast to see; so, let's apply that evolutionary process to the energy our minds create which is neither matter or anti-matter, now multiply that process of creating energy (call it what
you wish, soul, etc)a trillion, trillion, trillion, times and think, just think, and contemplate this as a possible result, that there is a dynamic force in the universe that is totally at war
with itself because of the ying and yang theory and positive and negative, etc. So, when we die what may exist is the energy we leave behind which becomes part of the Universal collective. We have no idea whatsoever of the force, that through the universal
evolutionary process, has harnessed and has become an intelligence we can't even begin to imagine. Another interesting thought is that there may be parallel Universes that were
formed because of the splitting during the big bang of other universes that didn't coalesce. Or, during the contraction process of the Universe it split into two or more contraction entities and they each create their own universe.
Sun Nov 14, 12:58:00 PM 2010
Eric Michalak said...
By making this list the author and those commenting seem to acknowledge that God exists, which is a step in the right direction. In light of that, I would like to point out a little fact. While God does take some lives without apparent reason or a reason that you
may not deem reason enough, you forget that God is also the crea tor of all life and He is at worst ending something He began. In short, God takes life, but he also created all life.
One final point. None of us here on earth are omniscient, and it is unwise in our uninformed state to question the actions of a being who is all knowing.
I hope this gets some people thinking in a productive manner.
Mon Dec 06, 07:05:00 PM 2010
Dee said...
Ezekiel 18:30 and following:
"Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord God. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, LEST INIQUITY BE YOUR
RUIN. Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! WHY WILL YOU DIE, O house of Israel? For I
HAVE NO PLEASURE IN THE DEATH OF ANYONE, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live."
Ephesians 4:14 and following:
For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and earth is named... so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith - that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may have the strength to comprehend with all the saints
what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness o f God."
There are many things I don't understand about God. But I have experienced His love, and I cannot argue with it any longer. He says His ways are higher than our ways. How
can we expect to figure out the Creator of the universe? We can't even figure out what He created (see Job 38-41).
I have nothing to prove. God can stick up for Himself. When He shows up for you, you'll know what I mean. I pray it's soon.
Tue Dec 07, 12:13:00 AM 2010
Luis said...
''He says His ways are higher than our ways.'' He would, but apparently they aren't (check out the kill board. Did you actually look at it, or did over 20 million murders just skip your mind, expunged from relevance by the
killer's soothing words that all is well?), unless by ''higher'', you mean 'acting like a bloodthirsty human', in which case I eminently agree with you.
God is the lowest of the low. Fuck him. But by all means, if you want to wait for him, then fill your boots.
Tue Dec 21, 05:33:00 AM 2010
Luis said...
''By making this list the author and those commenting seem to acknowledge that
God exists, which is a step in the right direction.''
<--- retarded comment. The author does NOT acknowledge God's existence. He merely tallied the murders that God is PURPORTED to have carried out acording to the events depicted in the Bible, and which Christians who believe in God on the basis of the Bible
are obligated to defend. Your comment was as stupid as saying that the author of an article tallying the body count of John McLane believes that Die Hard is a documentary.
Weasel, disingenuous comment.
Tue Dec 21, 05:40:00 AM 2010
Princess D. said...
And that's just biblical quotes. Just look at how much war and genocide has been committed in the name of G-d. To name a few: The inquisition nearly decimated the
entire female population of Europe. The crusades killed G-d followers on both sides. The English reformation killed Catholics because they didn't worship G-d the right, protestant way. The KKK believed they were following G-d's orders by slaughtering blacks. And
pretty much every monarchical leader felt their every act was ordained by G-d, including war and executions. And that's just the surface.
Mon Jan 03, 03:49:00 PM 2011
Dee said...
What of the human person Jesus of Nazareth. Any record of him killing anyone? Not that
I recall. I rather remember him doing the opposite - healing everyone who came to him and raising more than one person from the dead. Perhaps one should try to make a chart of all the healings Jesus did in his time on earth. Not to mention his giving up his own life
to provide life for others. Could it be that this more clearly demonstrates the character of God? I don't think you will find God commanding to kill anywhere in the New
Testament. Therefore I don't believe any of the post-biblical "God-willed" massacres as mentioned by Princess D were truly the will of God but rather a result of the corruption of human power.
Mon Jan 03, 10:42:00 PM 2011
Luis said...
''Therefore I don't believe any of the post-biblical "God-willed" massacres as
mentioned by Princess D were truly the will of God but rather a result of the
corruption of human power. ''
1) By that rationale, why can't the good that Jesus is purported to have carried out also be the result of 'human power'? Why just filter out the bad stuff and leave in the good? Why not be consistent?
2) The OT says things, and the NT says things. What's your basis for choosing what's
'really' the 'result of the corruption of human power' and what's genuinely God ordained? It sounds an awful lot like your criteria is simply 'whatever Dee likes and doesn't like'.
In other words (for the serious people), it's ALL human made, the good and the bad. The labels - 'human corruption' or 'God's goodness' - are slapped on according to the
convenience of the believer. It's odd that people can't seem to fathom the simple notion that humans can be responsible for both; so anxious to believe that if something is good, it comes from God, but if it's bad, it comes from them. Y'all need to start using your
book-smarts to exercise your critical faculties rather than just your limbic systems.
Tue Jan 04, 08:20:00 AM 2011
larry said...
The Bible is the mythical history & culture of the Hebrews & the Tribes of Israel. The murderous spirit that is shown in the Bible, is shown in Israel today.
The "John Boy Walton" beliefs of Evangelical Christians ignores the Blood & Gore that streams through the Bible & they pretend that this is the work of a Holy God. If one
could print photos of human carnage along side the parts of the Bible that depicts bloody carnage, then these hypocrites would have a hard time explaining.
Wed Jan 05, 11:27:00 PM 2011
sim1kinu said...
God sent two bears to rip apart boys for making fun of a prophet's bald head: -42peoples
Being burned to death for burning incense: -250peoples
God stops the sun so Joshua can kill in the daylight: - 5000peoples
Some God-proof iron chariots: another -5000peoples
Knowing that there are idiots that will believe this shit and will have meaningless lives because they worship it: priceless
There are some things you shouldn't believe because they are utterly ridiculous. For
everything else, there's MASTERGOD!
Thu Jan 06, 07:09:00 PM 2011
Jersey Boy said...
can you post the people satan killed in the bible because i would find it hilarious to point out the difference . although neither are real i think it would make a christian turn blue in the face
Thu Jan 20, 12:52:00 PM 2011
Wikkid said...
In the "God's Killings in Genesis" list, the number for Noah's Flood is 30 million while in this list it is 20 million. Other estimates I have seen have guessed it was 3 million.
Mon Jan 24, 02:22:00 AM 2011
Steve Wells said...
Thanks, wikkid. I've changed the Genesis list to 20 million. I used McEvedy and Johes' Atlas of World Population History for the estimate (which is the most conservative estimate that I've seen from a serious historian). There certainly would have been more
than 3 million people living in 2400 BCE.
Mon Jan 24, 08:24:00 AM 2011
GLaDOS said...
Who said God loves us?
Fri Jan 28, 02:31:00 PM 2011
Dee said...
Jesus did. And not just with words. To answer the comment about why don't we believe that the good things happen by
human power... Humans are very capable of taking life, killing each other, and destroying
things. Not to say that God doesn't do that ever. But when it comes to instantaneously healing people from long-suffering diseases and raising people from the dead - after 4
days, I find it hard to write that off as "human power".
Sun Jan 30, 01:55:00 PM 2011
P said...
Me neither I would attribute it to "human imagination". Btw the whole giving up his live thing? He knew he would come back, he knew he would
spend eternity in heaven and he died quite quick compared to some humans who died on the cross. Oh and he died to enable god to save us from god and with the whole trinity thing that is similar to saying that a hostage-taker who killed a few hostages saved the
surviving hostages because he surrendered to the police instead of killing them as well.
(It shouldn't be necessary to say this but sadly some christians are quick to claim that someone just admitted that he believes in god: I talk like jesus really sacrificed himself and came back from the death and as if heaven existed. That doesn't mean I believe it, it's
just inconvenient to write things like "If the story described in the NT were true, then". Or do you add such disclaimers when you talk about Harry Potter oder Darth Vader?)
Wed Feb 09, 09:26:00 AM 2011
Anton said...
Pop Quiz...
If there are six billion people on earth at the beginning of the Apocalyse, how many people will be left after the angel casts Satan into the pit and bound him for a thousand
years? How many kill offs are there in Revelation?
Fri Mar 18, 08:14:00 PM 2011
Jens said...
God always gets his man eventually, even if he has to roast the earth with the sun to do it. I'm not sure if this has resulted in attempts to get off earth (going to the heavens ?).
Thu Apr 07, 01:16:00 PM 2011
Jens said...
God always gets his man in the end, even if he has to roast the earth, dissolve it, flood it, rock it to and fro, turn it upside down or bring hell up from the bowls of the earth. This
may have lead to attempts to get off the earth (shooting for heaven ?). ;-)
Thu Apr 07, 02:05:00 PM 2011
John said...
If you want to scare people into being obedient slaves you need a mean son of a bitch god to threaten them with.
When I started read the bible as a child I immediately realized what a crock of shit is was just because the god was such a bastard. If god's is really like that then fuck him.
Mon Apr 11, 11:31:00 AM 2011
Ahmad said...
The bible has been corrupted. That is obvious. Do not attribute strange things that is in the bible to God. You need to step back and ask yoursleves is He who created your eyes and everything wonderful you see capable of injustice. It is impossible that God would do anything evil. I challenge you to reflect and have a conversation with God and ask Him to
guide you. You should read the Quran and open your mind
Mon Apr 11, 11:42:00 AM 2011
cuthulan said...
A great article and a lot of good work.I have done some work on this subject myself and you might like some of my posts too.
Abrahamic monotheism is just original fascism. Its a DEATH CULT that has spread ignorance disease and excused genocide ,theft and book burning!
Its symbols are the star(jewish)the moon(islam) which are symbols of the night, and the cross(christian) which is a death and torture device!
Judaism was originally invented by Cyrus the Great! Its Egyptian SET worship converted to zoroastrianism! Read more; http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2009/09/02/the- invention-of-judaism/
christianity was invented by Emperor Constintine ,he was trying to unite his west and east Roman empires.It was Druidic/Egyptian/Eastern sun worship.His book was the New
Testamonies his city Constantinople. The BI-BLE(2 books)and "messianic judaism",was a later Byzantine invention http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2009/09/02/the- invention-of-christianity/
Islam was Quyrsh moon worship converted to messianic judaism by "heretic" monks that lost a constantinople power struggle.
http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2009/09/02/the- invention-of-islam/
Mon Apr 11, 11:51:00 AM 2011
paul said...
To a earlier comment, I believe the Koran has the same GOd... so in effect god would be killing even more people....
Mon Apr 11, 01:42:00 PM 2011
wgabler said...
Nice, I was looking for something that would give me the list of the people in quotes in the verse below. 25 million more to be given life in the 1,000 year reign. God is probably quite proud of you at the moment. lol
Re:20:4: And I saw thrones,
and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:
and I saw "the souls of them that were beheaded" for the witness of Jesus, "and for the word of God, " and which had not worshipped
the beast, neither his image,
neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
lol
Mon Apr 11, 01:54:00 PM 2011
allat said...
You forgot the Book of Esther, where Haman is hung on a gallow, and all his sons are killed and his family sold as slaves.
And further, where all the Persians = in the thousands -that plotted against the jews were
killed by the jews. Revenge by any other name!
THAT'S what the jews celebrate so gleefully today! Mass slaughtering in revenge!
NOT forgiveness or anything that that!
Mon Apr 11, 04:00:00 PM 2011
SurferJoe said...
and that is only one god you are talking about...how about the other gods? were they as nice? just wondering, i dont really care, but does anyone know?
Tue Apr 12, 04:51:00 AM 2011
Egoigwe said...
Nice... but a distinction is important here. The Old testament is essential Hebrew history. The god to which all this is attributable is the god of the Jews (or Lucifer, as he is fondly called by Zionists) and perhaps through this we see the origins of the blood lust that is
Israel's campaign today in Palestine. This belief in a god of vengeance and war underlines Zionist attitudes and that
diminishing respect for human life.
The God of the Christians is a loving God. A God, which according to narratives, so loved us (sinners) that He gave His only Begotten son that we may live... and which His son urged that we should turn the other cheek.
We are all God's children, like it, know it or not. Clearly, there is a distinction between
the god of the Jews and the God that Jesus spoke to us about. You have defined a killer god not a loving God.
Tue Apr 12, 01:58:00 PM 2011
stefan said...
I think as human beings, we are curious and need to believe in some kind of god, i dont but thats me, i kind of wish i did, would make life a lot easier and death a lot less scary,
but come on i think we all know deep down , there is no such thing as god....it is a scary thought at first, but once you begin to understand the universe and our place in it, it becomes fascinating, and if anything religion becomes very dull. i find peace in the fact
that when i die i will become eventually part of a new star, gosh even a different life form.
it's science all the way for me, it makes sense, and is a credit to us
Fri Apr 15, 03:29:00 AM 2011
ben.scheri said...
You forgot the book or revelation where 2/3 of the worlds population will be killed which is ordained by god, including the gog/magog wars where the blood will reach up to the
bridles. Talk about violent exclusivism. and then we're supposed to believe that not only does "god" kill people, but then he tortures them for eternity. To borrow the saying from
the great christopher hitchens- "no thinking person can believe this"
Thu Apr 21, 10:34:00 AM 2011
Mike Haubrich, FCD said...
"We are all God's children, like it, know it or not. Clearly, there is a distinction between the god of the Jews and the God that Jesus spoke to us about. You have defined a killer
god not a loving God. " What are you talking about? Nowhere in the Nice Testament does anyone say that this is
about a different God. And the God of the Nice Testament is not so nice, either. He just made a new rule, and people who don't follow that rule go to Hell.
Wed Apr 27, 06:28:00 AM 2011
Torbjörn Larsson, OM said...
@ Robken: OK I have been reading your comment and it is difficult to view it as intelligently based.
- What is your point in this context (of a murderous insane god)?
- Your ideas doesn't portray standard cosmology or evolution.
* The universe is ~ 14 Gy.
* The inflationary cosmology doesn't depend on a big bang moment but gives an initial condition (inflation) to the big bang cosmology (expansion). In any case it doesn't make sense to say "later" relative spacetime if spacetime isn't there. Nor would it affect the later
process.
* Spacetime as regards inflation and pre- inflation is iffy. There was semiclassical worldlines, but if there was spacetime is uncertain. In any case spacetime is constituted latest after the end of inflation.
* Recombination after reheating didn't empty spacetime but converted particles to
radiation. Any energy density decrease was due to big bang expansion. * End of inflation makes multiverses in _some_ theories, but not by splitting but different
destinies for different worldlines.
* Evolution on Earth has taken all extant species to today in ~ 4 Gy.
* Biological evolution applies only to biological systems of course.
- And dualism is plain nuts when it isn't observed, which brings us back to the murderous myth described in the post.
Wed Apr 27, 09:56:00 AM 2011
Dee said...
first of all, @ Egoigwe: same God in the Old and New Testaments. That's important. The Old Testament God is not Lucifer - that is another name for the devil brought out of the
King James Version translation of Isaiah 14.
I don't claim to understand why God does the things He does, but i don't believe I have to. There are a few things I have come to understand about Him though: 1. He has always promised to be found by those who seek Him (ex. Jeremiah 29:11-14
and Matthew 7:7-11 are examples) 2. He will never destroy without warning, as seen throughout all the prophets and
Revelation. He will first warn and call out for the evil to stop. 3. When His message is responded to and the people return to justice and worship God, He relents or provides a way of escape. (Old Testament examples include Josiah, the city
of Nineveh, Hezekiah, Lot, and even the evil King Ahab of Israel). As the Old Testament is a story of the Hebrew people, we see few examples of how God rescued people from other nations from His destruction. (There are some key ones: Rahab, Ruth, Tamar.)
God's message to the people of Judah through Ezekiel: "As I live, declares the Lord, I
have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, TURN BACK from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?" (Ez 33:11)
@ Anton: there's a lot of mystery about what will happen at the end. I expect it could be
very terrible. I will want to be on the right side because God will provide strength to those who trust in Him and will bring us to a glorious end.
All humans stand hopeless before the Almighty, All-Holy God. We all deserve to be consumed by the fire of His wrath for any less-than-perfect thing we have done. Problem
is, He doesn't actually want anyone to die, so He does all He can to save us short of taking away our free will. Scripture indicates that everything/anyone who rebels against their Creator by refusing to worship Him will meet a fiery end - that is a matter of choice
for us. I challenge you to try and get to know Him though - you'll be surprised by His mercy and grace. I mean, how is it that a nation about to be destroyed calls out to God
after pages and pages of oracles about His coming wrath and asks for compassion based on His character (Jeremiah 21:2)? Somehow, the God they knew had a reputation of great love and compassion amidst all the destruction.
Sun May 01, 02:54:00 PM 2011
Stephen said...
Dee said...
I challenge you to try and get to know Him though - you'll be surprised by His
mercy and grace.
Sun May 01, 02:54:00 PM 2011
Oh, my sweet beejeebers... I almost couldn't breathe for a good couple minutes after reading this. Thanks for the belly laugh!
Steve Weeks
Sat May 14, 12:44:00 PM 2011
kathy said...
You do not know who you are talking about. He is the High and Holy one that inhabits eternity...he is the Sovereign One, the Great One, Our Wonderful, Counselor, The Way the Truth and the Life...no man comes to the Father but through Jesus....and because you
do not know him, your infinite mind cannot grasp the truth. God does not need to answer to you or anyone else. He established his will before the foundations of the world and
infinite man cannot go up against a finite God who is majestic in all his ways. Wow do I love him for not thinking or behaving like man...thank you Lord for being IN control. He is the only one to whom we can trust our lives. Our God is a Consuming Fire....
Thu May 19, 07:57:00 AM 2011
Dest_Truth said...
Dee said... What of the human person Jesus of Nazareth. Any record of him killing anyone? Not that I recall.
Dee, I recommend you read the book of Thomas the Saint. The book of Thomas was removed from the published bible in order to keep the myth of a perfect Jesus intact. In
the book of Thomas it states clearly that Jesus, while exceptionally smart and gifted with crazy powers, was just like any other child... mean spirited, arrogant and completely out
of control at more than one point. And yes, he did strike a few people down.
Mon Jun 06, 09:11:00 AM 2011
Megaphon said...
Religion of peace strikes again!
Sun Jun 12, 03:36:00 PM 2011
WhatifI said...
our life our death r in hand of God. so everyone being born and died is just returning to him! we all r 1 being!
Fri Jun 24, 07:27:00 AM 2011
Chankey Pathak said...
Nice efforts man! Made a great list. Good work, keep it up!
Fri Jun 24, 07:34:00 AM 2011
wynd.and.fury said...
For an argument to be effective, it needs to be in terms that the listener can relate to. Seeing that a lot of the arguments for God are in terms relative to faith rather than facts or just common sense is rather embarrassing. So here's my food for thought:
1) All historical accounts should be taken with a grain of salt, holy book or not. Seeing as the Bible is not absolute - since it was written BY humans and EDITED by humans - it
certainly makes little sense to take everything absolutely literally. If anything, it is a guide, a reference, just like any other historical document. The difference is the message
and original intent of the piece, the aspect that makes it "God- inspired," that is what makes it holy, not the literal words. All that being said, the numbers being presented seem to line up with the Bible's take on history. Way to do your homework Steve.
2) My only argument that seems to be consistent in the proof of God's existence is the Earth itself. I'm okay with the Big Bang Theory, the Evolutionary Theory, or even String
Theory. Why? Because these are not laws of nature or facts; these are ideas for how the world works, and for the most part they do a decent job of explaining many a process.
The only issue I have is that they do not explain how any of these processes started and do not effectively convey why our planet has managed to exist without being in total chaos from the start. Case in point: If I were to walk up to any structure - Eiffel Tower,
Sistine Chapel, Statue of Liberty - it would be preposterous for me to say that, because I did not see its creation, it appeared here randomly or of its own volition. Nothing in life
has demonstrated that things occur consistently or just "come together" by sheer odds or extended periods of time. If I leave a pile of concrete blocks, steel beams and some bolts all on top of a concrete slab for a thousand years, time will not just lead to the creation of
a building. The pieces will simply stay right where they are, or wither away.
Everything in nature has a source for its existence and we can nearly always prove how. The only thing we cannot prove with science is that which we cannot reproduce ourselves. We can provide evidence in the forms of theories, but without witnessing the
phenomena ourselves, we will be unable to conclude it as fact. Fortunately, with our level of intelligence, we are capable of achieving so much simply on theories (I'm looking at
you quantum mechanics).
Please respond full force, I love debates haha
Fri Jun 24, 08:48:00 AM 2011
teresa said...
Dear God, please provideth a dictionary for kathy so that she may look up the difference between infinite and finite. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
PS- make her less crazy.
Fri Jun 24, 09:11:00 AM 2011
paulie09 said...
The Bible yet speaks about a time of coming judgement. You have a choice now to heed or ignore.
If you ignore - how could you possibly blame God for executing the judgement He has clearly warned you about?
Wed Jun 29, 04:34:00 AM 2011
Seymour13 said...
@Paulie09 "The Bible yet speaks about a time of coming judgement. You have a choice now to heed
or ignore." That's like a mobster holding a shotgun to your kneecap and giving you the "choice" to
either pay protection money (in this case; unwarrented faith) or get your leg blown off (judgement).
Difference is, I actually have reasonable grounds for assuming the mobster is real, as opposed to a supposedly unobservable "god".
1- One can't distinguish between the unobservable and the non-existant. 2- Extra-ordinary claims require extra-ordinary evidence.
3- What can be assumed without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. "If you ignore - how could you possibly blame God for executing the judgement He has
clearly warned you about?"
What an utterly vile and disgusting thing to say. You are the textbook example of someone who's morals have been utterly corrupted by
his religion. Your mother would be so proud...
Sat Jul 16, 04:42:00 PM 2011
YS said...
i suppose people will just rip me up for writing this but...
ok I don't condone killing. murder is a sin. that is very clear in the Bible.
But yes also God has killed according to the Bible. Directly, indirectly. the numbers don't really matter i think.
However, a reason why Christians still proclaim our God is good despite this is because
God is not a man. He is the Creator of men. As the Creator, he has the right to destroy.
A common rebuttal to that statement is that many he killed were innocent. You are forgetting then that according to the Bible, no one is innocent. Through the original sin of
Adam and Eve, not a single one of us is clean. And it is only through grace and mercy that we live at all. And through greater grace and mercy that we are allowed salvation.
I know what I said wont convince most people. But I feel like those are points that are not commonly said. It's impossible to logic your way into the Christian faith, even when
logic points to the faith. It says so in the Bible itself. But at least I can show some of the reasoning.
Sun Jul 24, 06:00:00 PM 2011
Seymour13 said...
-"ok I don't condone killing. murder is a sin. that is very clear in the Bible."- So we agree on that.
-"But yes also God has killed according to the Bible. Directly, indirectly. the numbers don't really matter i think."-
Again, agreed. A single life taken absent cause is already too much.
-"However, a reason why Christians still proclaim our God is good despite this is because
God is not a man. He is the Creator of men. As the Creator, he has the right to destroy."-
Any being that calls itself our god is subject to atleast the same standards of critique as we are, if not MUCH higher standards.
To excuse or even condone incompetence and cruelty (especially from a god) is something I will not do.
Besides, only a sick individual (probably glutton for punishment/masochist aswell) would think of or even accept something like "As the Creator, he has the right to destroy".
Generally this line of thought reveals a state of mind corrupted by religion, I'd call it a classic case of stockholm syndrome, except ofcourse that this supposed angry god is just imaginary.
Mon Jul 25, 10:01:00 AM 2011
Seymour13 said...
-"A common rebuttal to that statement is that many he killed were innocent. You are forgetting then that according to the Bible, no one is innocent."-
Now that is one of my main problems with biblical scripture (and one of the main reasons why it is a corrupting force in this world), it teaches you you're "dirty", "you're sinful and
you deserve WHATEVER you get" all for being how GOD MADE YOU, and instead of dealing with his own incompetence he takes it out on YOU and ME.
(I'll just assume that you're putting these points up for argument's sake, and don't actually believe this yourself. Because if you do actually believe any of this you've automatically disqualified yourself
from any intelligent discussion or debate.)
-"Through the original sin of Adam and Eve, not a single one of us is clean."- Adam and eve got punished for god's incompetence, he put the fucking tree there
knowing beforehand they were gonna eat from it (omniscient), ergo; he shouldn't have put the fucking tree there.
Besides, it's not much of a choice for adam and eve since the very framework they needed to actually REALIZE eating the apple is bad (instead of just hearing the word "bad" but not understanding the implications).
To make any kind of judgement call regarding eating the apple they would have needed
knowledge of good and evil beforehand, so they could actually UNDERSTAND that eating the apple was bad, and WHY. They didn't, so they didn't really know that eating the apple and going against god's
wishes was "bad", and thus were so easily influenced by the talking snake.
But let's leave that aside for the moment, what's even worse about this is that the very
concept of original sin is that WE'RE actually paying for the wrongdoings of long gone and non-existant ancestors.
Adam and Eve supposedly ate the apple, not us, yet god supposedly lets us suffer and even adds to that suffering instead of just *poof*- ing sin away, completely.
Because, after all, WE weren't the ones that ate from the apple.
Mon Jul 25, 10:03:00 AM 2011
Seymour13 said...
-"And it is only through grace and mercy that we live at all. And through greater grace and mercy that we are allowed salvation."-
Don't even get me started on the biblican loophole concerning sin (jesus sacrifice), that may actually be the most immoral part in the entire bible (redemption through proxy, and
making one person pay for another's sins). The whole mob-boss analogy (while very accurate) is just icing on the cake in this case.
-"I know what I said wont convince most people. But I feel like those are points that are not commonly said."-
Not anymore, no.
Because MOST people (even the religious) realize exactly how big a pile of bullshit those "points" are. And everyone seriously using them basically disqualify themselves from any kind of
(intelligent) discussion or debate (as I said before) in addition to revealing themselves as morally inferior.
-"It's impossible to logic your way into the Christian faith, even when logic points to the faith."-
Logic actually points AWAY from religion. Faith is unwarranted absolute belief in something without any proof or even just cause to
make an assumption. And to have "faith" is in and of itself, illogical.
Religion starts where you assume without reason or cause, and assumption is the mother of all fuck-ups.
PS: Something to think about; how does supposedly perfect god create an IMPERFECT creation? a perfect being does not make mistakes yet according to scripture MANY
mistakes have been made by god.
Mon Jul 25, 10:10:00 AM 2011
wynd.and.fury said...
@Seymour13:
Here's one way to look at it: Humans are not imperfect because of their design. We are imperfect because we do not automatically default to making one choice - i.e. the "right"
choice - in every situation. The amazing thing about our species is the depth of our choice palette; the very fact that so many people on this single post alone have varying views on a single topic demonstrates that. It allows us to experience life uniquely by our own
volition, and part of that experience is deciding whether or not you put your faith in that which cannot be readily seen.
But like I had mentioned in my previous post, one of the main issues seems to be the literal acceptance of what the words in any given translation of the Bible say. So even if
you say "MANY mistakes have been made by god," you cannot definitively say that because 1) you, nor I, nor anyone else can truly attest to that fact and 2) the definition of
a mistake is too fluid. I would address your other points against YS but I want to hear your thoughts first.
Tue Jul 26, 05:32:00 PM 2011
Seymour13 said...
"Humans are not imperfect because of their design. We are imperfect because we do not automatically default to making one choice - i.e. the "right" choice"
If you assume that we were designed, then it's still a design flaw because in that case we are how we were made, and we weren't made to default to making the "right" choice.
But we are more or less wired as far as choices are concerned, our actions and choices are "predetermined", we act- and react to things the way we do because we are who we are
(influenced by both the circumstances of the situation and things we've seen, done, went through, and otherwise experienced). If we made different decisions we wouldn't be ourselves, but someone else entirely.
"But like I had mentioned in my previous post, one of the main issues seems to be the
literal acceptance of what the words in any given translation of the Bible say. So even if you say "MANY mistakes have been made by god," you cannot definitively say that because 1) you, nor I, nor anyone else can truly attest to that fact"
True, the bible is a book that has been re-translated and re-written far too often and no-
one can say that what the bible says is how things actually happened, or even assume that it is inspired by god (I find it hard to believe that a god's best attempt at communication is a corrupted book).
I was just addressing what the book itself says, as there are (illogical (and even immoral) parts in there.
And while there are some people who are a bit more open minded, alot of people take the
bible (at least partially) literally.
"and 2) the definition of a mistake is too fluid."
That depends, when I say "god's mistakes" in biblical context I'm generally leaning toward things like an omniscient/omnipotent being putting a certain tree in the garden of eden, giving the talking snake a chance to dupe adam and eve, and so on and so forth, and
ultimately failing to solve the problem he created (sin) with the inadequate jesus loophole.
Then there's biblical law, there are truly unreasonable and even immoral laws in the bible. Some of which involving sacrifice, murder, thought crime, (self-)mutilation,
discrimination, rape and slavery. Yet this is the same book that is claimed to have been inspired by god, I don't buy it,
those laws could not have come from a god. No ammount of good excuses the ammount of bad that is in there, and the hand of man is far too evident in this book to take it as anything short of a mockery.
These things just don't make sense unless the biblical god lacks the qualities (by
admission of the very same bible) it claims god has, in which case we're not talking about a god, but a fraud.
Thu Jul 28, 02:52:00 AM 2011
wynd.and.fury said...
@Seymour13:
I numbered my responses according to the quotes you responded to. 1) Do you consider your ability to choose how to live your life as a "design flaw"? I
would think that the single most important aspect of our lives is the fact that we can shape them as we will, regardless of how anyone else - ethereal or otherwise - wants us to
live. As for your "predetermined" argument, you are for the most part correct. People do
indeed live according to their experience and their inherent qualities they are born with. But again, no person is a slave to their circumstance. Even if two people are subjected to
the same hardships, those two people are still capable of choosing for themselves how they wish to live. THAT, in my opinion, is what identifies us uniquely: not our experiences, but our choices because - or in spite - of them.
2) In my opinion, the Bible was never meant to be God's "best attempt at
communication," whether you believe in Him or not. While you are right that Bible thumpers and the like may take it literally, I honestly think that the purpose of the Bible is a literary piece like Shakespeare and other great writers and historians: a book filled with
stories and historical pieces that differentiates itself because it's "God-inspired." And just because people have put their own spin or flavor on the translation doesn't mean the
original intent of the piece is totally lost. However you wish to take it is obviously up to you.
One thing I can't understand though is how you determine morality. To claim that certain acts of God are immoral makes me wonder what your basis for that claim is. I'd like to
hear your take on that.
3) Once again, I'm curious where your standard for the proper behavior of an omnipotent, omniscient being comes from, considering you are a finite, limited being like the rest of us. If an all-knowing, ever-present being exists, then how would you comprehend it? We
can hardly comprehend the distance from the Earth to the Sun - and that's a limited distance. If there is anything remotely close to infinite in this universe, can we truly
quantify or understand it? I have never seen anything outside of the Milky Way personally, and I'm assuming you
haven't either. But scientists that do research and look out into the cosmos present beautiful and amazing pieces from the stars in photographs for the rest of us to
appreciate; if you did not witness it yourself, does that mean you immediately discount it? You may surely doubt it, as would I. But simply not witnessing something for yourself does not discredit it. In regards to God, even if you don't buy any of the fluff or facts
pushed in front of you, "the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence," as they say right?
If there is a God that is anywhere remotely close to how He is described in a "corrupted book," then we still have no argument. Because ultimately, our life spans are limited to
about 80 years or so, and we have no idea who originally wrote anything outside of our immediate scopes or lifetimes. And we are - as you say - limited by our experiences.
Many things we do are based on the faith we put in others.
Thu Jul 28, 10:52:00 AM 2011
Seymour13 said...
"Do you consider your ability to choose how to live your life as a "design flaw"?" No, because I don't believe we were designed.
Ehm, I'll just assume you missed the point of that bit entirely...
"those two people are still capable of choosing for themselves how they wish to live." What's more a part of who you are than how you wish to live?
I believe I had that covered with "because you are who you are".
"One thing I can't understand though is how you determine morality. To claim that
certain acts of God are immoral makes me wonder what your basis for that claim is. I'd like to hear your take on that."
Excuse me, but are we not on a blog that lists god's supposed killings?
Add to that biblical law of which I previously gave examples and you've already got (the first part of) your answer. Everyone who reads the bible can clearly read the atrocities supposedly ordered and
condoned by god, also including disgusting mind games such as abraham being told to sacrifice his son as a "test of faith".
Ofcourse we know none of this actually happened, but as always I'm addressing the biblical god (as is the point of this blog itself) and the biblical account of history.
"Once again, I'm curious where your standard for the proper behavior of an omnipotent, omniscient being comes from, considering you are a finite, limited being like the rest of
us. If an all-knowing, ever-present being exists, then how would you comprehend it? We can hardly comprehend the distance from the Earth to the Sun - and that's a limited distance. If there is anything remotely close to infinite in this universe, can we truly
quantify or understand it?"
The standard is MY moral standard, I compare the biblical god to myself and find him utterly inferior to both myself, and to people in general.
I also spotted an argument from ignorance (logical fallacy).
Sat Jul 30, 05:33:00 AM 2011
Seymour13 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sat Jul 30, 05:36:00 AM 2011
Seymour13 said...
(Steve, I only saw half my post come up, and since I've sometimes seen this happen on other sites due to bugs I'm reposting the 2nd part, feel free to disregard this if the original part 2 was posted)
"I have never seen anything outside of the Milky Way personally, and I'm assuming you
haven't either. But scientists that do research and look out into the cosmos present beautiful and amazing pieces from the stars in photographs for the rest of us to appreciate; if you did not witness it yourself, does that mean you immediately discount
it?"
It depends, I have reasonable trust in scientists because it is their job to figure out how things work and results can actually be tested, repeated, and affirmed. And in case of the picture I would actually be able (consider I'd have access to the
equipment needed) see it for myself.
"But simply not witnessing something for yourself does not discredit it. In regards to God, even if you don't buy any of the fluff or facts pushed in front of you, "the absence o f
evidence is not the evidence of absence," as they say right?" Partially true, however it does not help it's credibility along either, and the greater the
claim the greater the need for evidence to substantiate that claim is. But as they also say: "what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed
without evidence" and "extra-ordinary claims require extra-ordinary evidence". "If there is a God that is anywhere remotely close to how He is described in a "corrupted
book," then we still have no argument. Because ultimately, our life spans are limited to about 80 years or so, and we have no idea who originally wrote anything outside of our
immediate scopes or lifetimes. And we are - as you say - limited by our experiences." Not quite sure what your point is with this bit.
But I do see yet another argument from ignorance.
"Many things we do are based on the faith we put in others." Srry, I don't do faith.
Faith is absolute belief in something regardless of (and often even in spite of) reason and evidence.
Sat Jul 30, 07:55:00 AM 2011
Misael1973 said...
Have you ever considered WHY these people died because God made it so? Yeah... please read the WHOLE stories in the bible before u pass judgement on our righteous and
Almighty God.
Mon Aug 15, 12:28:00 PM 2011
Seymour13 said...
@Misael1973
What makes you think he hasn't read the whole stories? See Steve's other site: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com
Wed Aug 17, 09:14:00 AM 2011
tramsbyxan said...
in what context is slavery ok? or killing homosexuals?
Sat Sep 17, 04:11:00 PM 2011
Matt said...
@wynd.and.fury
As nobody seems to have addressed your argument from design I thought I'd have a go. While I think you're correct in describing the way we instinctively seem to be able to
identify things which are designed, it would be a mistake the conclude that we are doing anything other than comparing what we see with what we've already seen. Buildings, watches, airplanes, paintings - these are all things for which we have widely held
explanations and clearly defined creators. If you find a watch in the desert, or even some machine of unknown origin, you assume design because man-made things all have a
signature that is unmistakable. Common components will recur if the device makes use of electronics, plastic is easily identified, etc. We're not assessing the relative complexity of each hypothetical artifact we come across - we're just checking our memory for enough
close matches to conclude someone designed it.
Note that there are all kinds of incredibly complex things that occur without our intervention - at every order of magnitude in size examples are everywhere. Snowflakes, crystals forming in mineral rich lakes. At a lower level there's water, which minus
external energy will freeze, going from a state of high entropy to a lower one, both putting to rest the simplistic notion that disorder is the only thing that happens without divine or human intervention and providing yet another example of something which is
surely complex enough that someone might confuse it for having been designed.
But we don't. Not because these things aren't complex, but because we have plenty of experience to fall back on. We know what stuff we design looks like.
We've only ever seen this one universe, this one planet. What would a non-designed universe look like, next to a designed one? Here our complete lack of experience makes it
impossible to take anything more than a wait and see attitude towards whether or not the thing that contains us and our planet was designed or came about some other way. Luckily science does its best not to jump to conclusions that are unwarranted, no matter
how much people might want those conclusions to be true. If there's one thing I think I can state unequivocally about Christians without risk of contradiction, it's that the way
they think the universe works is also the way they hope it works. Not true for the rest of us. A benevolent creator and a cushy afterlife would be awesome.
I'm not so keen on the god that's currently top of the charts, or the snoozefest/eternal punishment binary option currently on offer, but at least the idea of a nice god who takes
a personal interest in me is something I can understand might be nice. Sadly, the evidence doesn't point towards that. So it's integrity that keeps me on the side
of reason, science, and logically consistent morality. To revert to what I see as a more primitive state, cringing whenever loud noises come from on high and walking around on
eggshells trying to follow rules that nobody understands, let alone agrees upon - to do that would mean jettisoning the bits of me that religious types would describe as "god
given."
Sat Nov 05, 12:49:00 AM 2011
wynd.and.fury said...
@Matt: Well spoken, Matt. You do bring up a good point that we do tend to base our
understanding of the world upon that which we can compare. And to be honest, I can't really see us functioning any other way. Even now, we are forced to rely on the
experiences of others around us for knowledge we have yet or may never attain without outside help. I don't see anything wrong with that; the various sciences are designed to be built upon the previous works of generations past, while continuously being questioned
and refined for holes in understanding.
As for your comment, "Luckily science does its best not to jump to conclusions that are unwarranted," I would say that inherently, you are correct. The nature of how science works is that it is an art of observation. However, just like anything else, data can be
skewed or presented for whatever agenda one is trying to present. So when it comes to theories like evolution or even creationism, whether you stand for or against them, you can present the data however you wish to give the impression and/or conclusion that you
seek. So when you say "the way [Christians] think the universe works is also the way they hope it works," you can say that about nearly anybody. And just as there are a
variety of scientists with a variety of viewpoints, so are there a variety of believers in any faith who will have different stances on different issues. Exhibit A: The outrageous number of denominations under the Christian banner.
As for scientific evidence of the nature of God, that idea is lud icrous. Science cannot
observe that which cannot be observed empirically, so anyone suggesting that idea cannot stand behind it. The nature of God can be explored through historical texts and the like, but in reality, this isn't "data." One could - in my opinion - treat the Bible like any other
holy text or classic literature that people hold in high regard; it is a source of knowledge based on the inspirations of ancient authors. There is information that lines up with
events in history, and prophecies that line up with documents outside of the Text, but other than that, it's merely a Book. That alone is not enough.
I ask this of people often when it comes to this, what is the nature or purpose of science? Is it to explain the "why" or the "how"?
I'd also like to hear your stance on "logically-consistent morality." In your mind, is morality determined on an individual level, based on how one views it?
Sat Nov 05, 01:51:00 PM 2011
moe said...
If you could create people or restore them why would it matter if you killed them after they decided to try it their way?
Mon Nov 21, 04:00:00 PM 2011
Adaml11600 said...
You forgot the billions that will be killed in Revelations as only 144,000 will go to heaven. And since most of us are not Jewish we will all go to hell. Oh dear. Might as well we sin. Revelation 7:3-8 (ESV)
saying: "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the servants of God on their foreheads." And I heard the number of the sealed, a hundred and
forty- four thousand, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel: 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed, 12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad, 12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali, 12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh, 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi, 12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun, 12,000 from the tribe of Joseph, 12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.
Wed Nov 23, 01:06:00 AM 2011
Best Value said...
25 million huh? Not bad. So in 6,000 years, God only killed a quarter of what atheists killed (100 million) in the last 100 years.
Tue Dec 06, 01:15:00 AM 2011
wynd.and.fury said...
Best Value, How does your comment at all encourage discussion? You're practically dangling raw
meat before a pack of wolves, expecting not to be bitten.
Wed Dec 07, 07:06:00 AM 2011
Moral Movement said...
Best value misses a point. If any atheists killed anyone, and God actually existed, then God has instigated or allowed these killings. God is guilty by actively or passively having
people killed. Furthermore, Steve has only mentioned biblical killings. That does not include the
millions that have died through crusades, jihads and various and numerous religiously inspired wars and conquests.
Steve, I think you missed that Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge, and as a result of this act mankind would not live an eternal life. In other words the entire human
race - billions of us - would die because these two people ate some fruit. Seems a pathetically vile god to me.
Sat Dec 17, 03:34:00 PM 2011
shelb said...
Some live as parasites, and with assumptions they cut the cord on life at the moment of the passing body unlike God who blesses more than one lifetime in the hope people learn from their mistakes..
Tue Jan 24, 12:28:00 PM 2012
shelb said...
Save the judgement for yourself, bad interpretations and one sided views without overall conclusions lack factual framework ,you can come back at this with a smart answer but in
the end the justification for these deaths will be revealed and you my dear friend will look as foolish as your scribblings ,for somebody who apparently does not exist you sure have a hard on for God..x
Tue Jan 24, 12:42:00 PM 2012
Moral Movement said...
Shelb, I guess that you not only believe in an unprovable God, but that you also believe in unprovable angels and Satan as well as an unprovable heaven and hell. You certainly seem to also believe in an unprovable after life that your ilk aspires to go to after an
unspecified time. Some of you think that this will happen pretty much after you die, whilst others of you think it will happen on the Day of Judgement.
Your tone would suggest that you will be very happy for a person like me to go to the
unprovable hell, as nasty as it might be, simply because the god that you espouse can't prove itself to me.
So you think that I should suffer because of its incompetence.
Nice one.
Wed Jan 25, 08:12:00 PM 2012
keith burrow said...
@Moral movement....I dont hope nor pray for you to go to the Hell you insist cant be proven; on the contrary....I pray that you get a revelation of the God who is revealing
himself to me....he's awesome....even more so than the one I tried to create in my own mind before he was ready for me to know Him. ...absolutely unfathomable....as far as the
main-body of this article....Arent we glad that all those things happened when mankind was at enmity with God and not today....it'd be a pretty nasty world to have to navigate with a God like Him at war with us....FORTUNATELY, the war was over at the point of
atonement when Jesus said "It is finished" and now we have a covenant that covers ALL of mankind (Those who choose to enter it) and not just one nation. And this new one
requires NO blood sacrifice beyond the one that has already been made and this covenant includes PROSPERITY in exchange for belief and wholeness & wellness in exchange for faith....and ETERNAL LIFE in exchange for believing in a Messiah who gave His perfect
self in exchange for those of us who were doomed....and EVERY BIT OF IT IS BOUGHT AND PAID FOR AND FREE FOR THE TAKING....and it requires NO PERFORMANCE STANDARDS....as a matter of fact you cant buy it with behavior and
performance if you TRIED....Nope....it's GRACE and it's FREE through FAITH!!!! Find me and "In-box" me at facebook if you'd like to learn how to get in on it-- Keith Burrow,
Scroggins Texas....Im the one wearing the red ball-cap.
Sun Jan 29, 11:16:00 AM 2012
keith burrow said...
One more thing for Moral Movement: The "Pathetically vile" comment....let me help you to understand where you are missing the mechanics here....Adam was given DOMINION over the creation BEFORE Satan deceived Eve...when Adam agreed to indulge her sin
and sin along with her he CEDED Dominion to Satan....that DOMINION was a sovereign dominion and it was given to Adam via the WORD of god....since the WORD
of god actually holds together everything that forms the universe (Everything created was created through the Word of God) if he violated His word in any way at any time the entire universe would disintegrate and the entire creation would be lost so he couldn't just
"intervene" and violate his word by taking dominion back from Satan....so he had to create a plan to rescue us that included blood atonement and since the blood of men and
animals is tainted by the fall of the creation, he had to organize and conduct a 4000 year plan to use WORD to get HIS OWN BLOOD worked into the human race via a virgin
birth so he could sacrifice that perfect blood and free us from the curse of the fall....its very very complicated, yes....but it's NOT a sci- fi and it's not just a fairy tale....there are
answers for EVERY question....they just have to be ferreted out
Sun Jan 29, 11:29:00 AM 2012
keith burrow said...
Oh ....and one last note for Moral Movement: Dont let the truth make you reluctant....sometimes when folks start to come to terms with the truth that there really is
a God who loves them, they dig their heels in because there is a part of their mind that says "If Im going to admit that this God really does exist, Im gonna have to become one of THEM" eewwwwww!!! .....well those people who have turned you off, because of the
goofy crap they spew that doesn't add up and is so condemning and condescending??? ....Those people are as lost as a goose in a snowstorm and I have to pray for them more
than anyone, because when someone THINKS they know something they dont know....it's really hard to get to them and get them to open their minds and think. So when you start to ask God that question most TRUE believers have asked (The one that
goes: "alright God....I dont think you're real, but if you are I WANT TO KNOW YOU...because if you really are REAL and my mind simply doesn't comprehend you yet,
then I REALLY NEED to know you)remember that those of us who are TRUE believers....dont care anything at all about being better than anyone else and we dont want to CHANGE anyone else and we dont care to condemn anyone else.....we simply want
people to open their minds to the real truth and then decide whether or not they care to pursue the REAL God.
Sun Jan 29, 11:40:00 AM 2012
keith burrow said...
The point in probability where "Possibility" ceases to exist is somewhere around 10 to the 10th power to one ......mathematics, as far as anyone has sought to reckon, sets the odds
of "evolution" or "spontaneous generation" generating the Known universe in it's current known state at UPWARDS OF (10 to the TRILLIONTH power) to (one) ....wouldn't
anyone in their right mind stop at about ....oh...lets say (10 to the 11,473,311th power)to (one) and say...."FELLAS, it looks like this place had some help getting here!"
Sun Jan 29, 11:53:00 AM 2012
Moral Movement said...
Keith Burrow, it is interesting that you get onto a website like this, that allows you to babble on, yet a religious website would bar someone like me.
Regarding Adam and Eve. If Eve came from the rib of Adam, the cloned person would be a male, so Adam and Steve rather than Adam and Eve.
Why would you believe primitive stories that are 2,000 3,000 years old. Why would you
believe primitive stories about gods, angels, ghosts, devils, heaven, hell and an after- life, none of which has any proof?
You speak out against blood sacrifices, and indeed it is stated that your make-believe god thought that this was a bad idea. Yet, guess what your god did? We are led to believe that
he sacrificed his only son. And guess why he did this? Because he was so incompetent with his human creation that his human creation would not grovel to him as much as he desired. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Perhaps you might read "The Man Who
Created God." by Stephen Marton. It tells exactly how your God was created.
Wed Feb 01, 09:26:00 PM 2012
Texture said...
Hello. I would like to see a list of whom the "Christians" have murdered. (A real Christian would ache till their death showing LOVE instead of violence
(Something we only see the Amish do) - Sadly all the other "CHRISTian$" seem to be way over on the other side - choosing the powerful (Murderers) side instead of the
cooperative, loving ones (real Christians). Aside from the young boys molested - I would like to see a list of whom and how many
the "Christian$" have killed in our history of having Christians (or "Christians") on the planet.
Please remember to include the murders of the North American Indians (whom were read their new laws in Spanish & Latin by Christians- and if they did not bow down to this new religion (and taking of their land & possessions & sometimes wives & children -
they would be murdered.) Custer fancied himself a good Christian. So did Andrew "The only good Indian, is a DEAD Indian" Jackson (yeah that guy on the 20.$ bill!) - So do most of the hicks
wearing the shirt, "KILL 'em all, let GOD sort 'em out!" - - - We realize that a bad apple simply calling themselves a Christian (or whatever) does
NOT make them so - but we are talking about mass murder/extinction from the planet with the okay from the church! (Think of the ties from the Popes to the one$ in power/politics from many countries that wanted more power. "Well, as long as you're
spreading Christianity... ok rape and murder as you see fit."
Fri Feb 10, 06:33:00 AM 2012
VOXDEI said...
en la manera como describes a Dios parece ser que es malvado para ti o para muchos que pueden estar de acuerdo contigo, sin embargo yo quiero hacer varias preguntas:
1. los que colonizaron EEUU cuanta gente asesinaron para obtener sus tierras? 2. en la independencia EEUU cuanta gente fue asesinada para libertar su país? 3. en la guerra primera y segunda guerra mundial cuanta gente mato para defender su
país? 4. En la guerra civil de EEUU cuanta gente asesinó el gobierno para defender su país de
sus mismos habitantes? 5. cuanta gente asesino EEUU en la guerra contra el medio oriente para defender su tierra
de los talibanes? Y la cantidad de muertos supera mas de 24.000.000 de asesinatos pero el gobierno de los
estados Unidos de America dice que lo hacen para mantener la libertad de su pueblo y nación, calificando a las demas naciones como agresoras de esta ¿y quién dice que no es así?
si un país como Estados Unidos que su gobierno es finito, puede asesinar justificando su causa en defender la libertad de una nación, ¿quien cuestiona a Dios todo poderoso Dador
de Vida, tomar de lo que le pertenece y quitarle la vida a las naciones que atentan contra su pueblo escogido o de reprender a los civiles de se rebelan sin causa contra su propio pueblo para hacer daño?
no es muy diferente de lo que en algunos estados en Estados Unidos, por conservar la paz y la armonía de la sociedad, dan pena de muerte.
Se juzga a Dios por defender su pueblo escogido, solo para justificar un corazón alejado de Él y que necesita de Él. Dios es Dios de Amor y de toda consolación, no hay que buscar lo malo de Dios por que en el no hay nada malo, es lo que haría un padre por un
hijo al que ama... y creo que no haces parte de una nación del antiguo testamento asolada por Dios. tienes la oportunidad de acercarte a Dios confiadamente al trono de la gracia .
Dios no va hacer contigo lo que los malvados han hecho en el transcurso de la historia por lo que Dios los ha reprendido. Cristo a ti te ama y te quiere salvar. y tienen que alejarte de Dios para justificarte sabiendo que tienes un vacío en tu corazón que solo
Jesucristo te puede llenar... Dios es un padre amoroso que esta esperando a que tu te arrepientas para sanar las heridas de tu corazón.
Jeirlen Padilla Molina [email protected]
Colombia
Tue Feb 28, 04:19:00 PM 2012
VOXDEI said...
en la manera como describes a Dios parece ser que es malvado para ti o para muchos que pueden estar de acuerdo contigo, sin embargo yo quiero hacer varias preguntas: 1. los que colonizaron EEUU cuanta gente asesinaron para obtener sus tierras?
2. en la independencia EEUU cuanta gente fue asesinada para libertar su país? 3. en la guerra primera y segunda guerra mundial cuanta gente mato para defender su
país? 4. En la guerra civil de EEUU cuanta gente asesinó el gobierno para defender su país de sus mismos habitantes?
5. cuanta gente asesino EEUU en la guerra contra el medio oriente para defender su tierra de los talibanes?
Y la cantidad de muertos supera mas de 24.000.000 de asesinatos pero el gobierno de los estados Unidos de America dice que lo hacen para mantener la libertad de su pueblo y nación, calificando a las demas naciones como agresoras de esta ¿y quién dice que no es
así? si un país como Estados Unidos que su gobierno es finito, puede asesinar justificando su
causa en defender la libertad de una nación, ¿quien cuestiona a Dios todo poderoso Dador de Vida, tomar de lo que le pertenece y quitarle la vida a las naciones que atentan contra
su pueblo escogido o de reprender a los civiles de se rebelan sin causa contra su propio pueblo para hacer daño? no es muy diferente de lo que en algunos estados en Estados Unidos, por conservar la paz
y la armonía de la sociedad, dan pena de muerte. Se juzga a Dios por defender su pueblo escogido, solo para justificar un corazón alejado
de Él y que necesita de Él. Dios es Dios de Amor y de toda consolación, no hay que buscar lo malo de Dios por que en el no hay nada malo, es lo que haría un padre por un hijo al que ama... y creo que no haces parte de una nación del antiguo testamento asolada
por Dios. tienes la oportunidad de acercarte a Dios confiadamente al trono de la gracia . Dios no va hacer contigo lo que los malvados han hecho en el transcurso de la historia
por lo que Dios los ha reprendido. Cristo a ti te ama y te quiere salvar. y tienen que alejarte de Dios para justificarte sabiendo que tienes un vacío en tu corazón que solo Jesucristo te puede llenar... Dios es un padre amoroso que esta esperando a que tu te
arrepientas para sanar las heridas de tu corazón.
Jeirlen Padilla Molina [email protected] Colombia
Tue Feb 28, 04:26:00 PM 2012
CK said...
I hope God doesn't get offended by your chart and smite you!
Sun Mar 11, 10:56:00 PM 2012
Morgaine said...
Wow - interesting debate. I'm sorry I missed it. I'm a Goddess worshiper so I usually straddle the two sides - I demand that religion agree with science but I also have experienced perfectly natural phenomena that most people would define as
"supernatural."
I do a lot of fact-checking on the Abrahamic death cults - Judaism, Catholicism, Greek orthodoxy, Protestantism, Islam and Mormonism - because I think Yahweh is the worst thing ever conceived by the minds of men. We've had 6,000 years of an unnatural social
order because of these moldy old scrolls, and it's time we put an end to "his" reign of terror.
Thanks so much for all your work! I'm so glad you've created this blog as well as your annotated Skeptic's texts. Happy Spring!
Sun Apr 01, 10:37:00 AM 2012
Salt of the earth said...
Your argument is basically nonsense. Here is why. God is the creator of everything in existence. Therefore, human beings are subject to His will and His judgement. God is just in every action He takes. The penalty for sin is death. Therefore, all of the people that you
think were innocent that God killed were not innocent at all. They were guilty of sin and therefore, the just punishment is death. Also, killing a criminal is not murder. Killing a criminal is just punishment.
Wed Apr 25, 08:54:00 AM 2012
Leonidus the Great. said...
to Salt of the Earth.. so your argument is that sinners are killed because it is just action by God? In that aspect, shouldn't God kill you for your sins?
Sun May 06, 04:55:00 PM 2012
Dee said...
In answer to that, yes He should. I am completely at His mercy. See, of God was ONLY just, all of us would be goners. But He is also (and dare I say, more predominately) love. He has an obligation to obliterate sin. Sadly, all of his beloved race of humans have
chosen to embrace it and thus attach themselves to the problem. Easiest solution: wipe us all out (see Genesis 6). But no, He had mercy enough to let one sinner and his family
live, and the problem persists. His eternal solution: let His Son take the sin away. Now, through Jesus, God has invented a way to separate sin and sinner so that sin can be aptly obliterated and love can prevail. But since all of us have free choice, we can still choose
to love sin and that's what breaks God's heart
Tue May 08, 11:46:00 AM 2012
Eehlex said...
So your great omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent God got it wrong the first time, didn't he...! Like a real Middle Eastern dictator, like the people who edited and re-invented their tribal stories about this out-of-date, contradictory killing machine.
Sat May 12, 06:01:00 AM 2012
pyromaniac77 said...
Although this doesn't seem like much when you look at Satan's whopping killstreak of... 10. (All of Job's children)
Thu May 24, 04:43:00 AM 2012
bob said...
Can someone make a count of how many deaths and how much misery, blood, guts and suffering has been caused by evolution (survival of the fittest) over millions of years?
How many people did the leaders of athiestic 'survival of the fittest' regimes (Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc) torture and murder? Actually, more than anyone else in the rest of history.
These men were great admirers of Darwin. Human life had no more worth to them than that of cattle, which made sense from their
perspective since we are just rearanged pond scum, as per evolutionary teaching. But far from being insane they thought they were doing good by taking evolution to its
logical conclusion and getting rid of all the physically and phychologically damaged, and 'racially inferior' human 'parasites', and thereby creating a better humanity.
So the real question is, which is more cruel, God or evolution?
Thu Jul 12, 01:06:00 AM 2012
Jferrin said...
Bob-
First, They did not kill in the name of atheism, however, many religious zealots did their killing in the name of the lord. That is no small thing there. They killed because of religion, because of God.
Second, Hitler was a self-professed Christian.
Third you ascribe philosophies and motivations on people that you have no way of knowing.
Thu Jul 26, 10:49:00 AM 2012
Jferrin said...
Bob- First, They did not kill in the name of atheism, however, many religious zealots did their
killing in the name of the lord. That is no small thing there. They killed because of
religion, because of God.
Second, Hitler was a self-professed Christian.
Third you ascribe philosophies and motivations on people that you have no way of knowing.
Thu Jul 26, 10:50:00 AM 2012
Kristen Helton said...
I have never understood the passion of those who believe we are all just a cosmic accident. As though things matter like truth and justice. Where do these concepts come
from? So a fairytale book says a fairytale creator killed some fairytale people. If the re is no meaning and purpose behind our creation and therefore no meaning in our existence,
why do you care enough to argue with passion against what is not real? Death occurs by the millions everyday in our world. People die, plants die, bugs die. WHO CARES!!! This is meaningless chaos. Unless it is not. Maybe there is intention and meaning behind
our creation. What caused the big bang? What was before the big bang? When you reach the end you are left with SOMETHING or SOMEONE that is SELF EXISTENT. The
science you so rely on proves that something cannot be created by nothing - cause and effect. We can observe the effect (creation) this PROVES a self existant cause because it has to begin somewhere. The only thing that can begin it would have to be beyond o ur
natural world that we can measure with science because it breaks the law of cause and effect. It causes out of nothing just as the Bible teaches. The Bible also proves itself through hundreds and hundreds of predictions that have come to pass which would be
mathematically impossible to predict. Thank God for science.
Sat Jul 28, 12:37:00 AM 2012
bob said...
Jferrin- First, they killed in the name of evolution as the ideology displayed in their public
speeches records. Second, self professed Christian does not mean genuine Christian as Hit ler and countless
others throughout history have demonstrated. A crimminal will say anything to get his foot in the door.
Third, "For a tree is known by its fruit." Mat 12:33. Philosophies and motivations are known by the fruit they end up bearing.
In Hitlers case alone, about 50 million killed as a result of the war that he instigated in the name of his Darwinian, survival of the fittest ideology.
For further proof, listen to some of his speeches or read his book, 'Mien Kampf' (My Struggle)and his philosophy soon becomes apparent.
Mat 12:33 is the way to differentiate between true Christian's and false Christian's, that is,
by their fruit.
Mon Jul 30, 09:22:00 PM 2012
Fred Good said...
I believe there are some things we can't possibly understand, and unlike those who believe in a man who lives in the sky, I will admit that I do not know. But I will never
believe a person who tells me that they know for sure that there is a God.
Tue Jul 31, 10:57:00 PM 2012
bob said...
Fred Good- True, there are some things we cannot understand. But we can easily understand that God
exists. To prove that there is a God can be done simply by disproving the validity of the only
other option for the existence of life. That is, that everything brought itself into existence through evolution (the naturalistic origin of life and its diversity).
The following questions demonstrate that evolution is simply not possible.
How did life originate? Evolutionist Proffessor Paul Davies admitted, "Nobody knows how a mixture of lifeless chemicals spontaneously organized themselves into the first living cell." Andrew Knoll,
professor of biology, Harvard, said "We don't really know how life originated on this planet." A minimal cell needs several hundred proteins. Even if every atom in the
universe were an experiment with all the correct amino acids for every possible molecular vibration in the supposed evolutionary age of the universe, not even one average-sized functional protein would form. So how did life with hundreds of proteins
originate just by chemistry without intelligent design?
How did the DNA code originate? The code is a sophisticated language system with letters and words where the meaning of the words is unrelated to the chemical properties of the letters - just as the information on
this page is not a product of the chemical properties of the ink (or pixels on a screen). What other coding system has existed without intelligent design? How did the DNA
coding system arise without it being created? [The DNA molecule is the most compact and efficient information storage system in the
known universe. For example, the amount of information that could be stored in a single pinhead of DNA would be equivalent to a pile of paperback novels 240 times as high as
the distance from the earth to the moon, or 100 million times more information than a 40 gigabyte hard drive could hold on your computer. Even if we could explain the creation
of complex coded information by chance, there would be another problem. We would need at the same time to create a mechanism capable of reading and using this coded
information; otherwise, the information alone is useless. A fully functional system for writing, reading, and using information is required. This is an example of "irreducible complexity." That is, to be fully functional, the writing
mechanism, the reading mechanism, and the mechanism for using the information must all be present at the very first instance it appears. If one of these components is missing,
the system won't work. Since life is built on a hierachy of such "irreducibly complex" machines, the idea that natural processes could have made mere chemicals into living systems is untenable]
Why are the (expected) counless millions of transitional fossils missing?
Darwin noted the problem and it still remains. he evolutionary family trees in textbooks are based on imagination, not fossil evidence. Famous Harvard paleontologist (and evolutionist), Stephen Jay Gould, wrote, "The extreme rarity of transitional forms in the
fossil record persists as the trade secret of paleontology." Other evolutionist fossil experts also admit the problem.
Thu Aug 02, 01:08:00 AM 2012
Stephen Buchanan said...
@Kristen Helton: "I have never understood the passion of those who believe we are all just a cosmic accident"
Well, actually most of us who choose to NOT believe in something (e.g. Christianity)
aren't really passionate about that at all. Are you passionate about NOT collecting stamps? We actually have lives to get on with here. I have a beautiful wife and a delightful child and two Burmese cats and two energetic Ridgebacks running around in
my garden that I love to plant trees in... And so on..
We only get passionate about things like Christianity because it refuses to go away, it wants to indoctrinate our children, deny rights to gays, teach fairy tales instead of evolution in science classes, keep women as second-class citizens, and... so much more.
If Christianity goes away, or at least learns to keep to itself, we can stop all the "passion" you object to.
Besides, you paint this incredibly bleak picture of the "meaningless chaos" in which we live. Yes, bad stuff happens. But good stuff happens all the time, too. It is a miracle to be
alive, haven't you noticed? What a beautiful world we live in. At least when bad stuff happens, I know there's nothing "behind" it - shit just happens. But when bad stuff
happens and you're a Christian, well, YOU are the one with a lot of explaining to do...
Thu Aug 02, 04:01:00 AM 2012
SamEdge said...
I don't know if someone has already asked this, so sorry if it is a repetition. I've noticed that the estimate of populations often differ from the bible versus scientific data. Have
you considered having two separate estimates for the cases where the exact number of people killed isn't clearly stated in the bible? One based on scientific data of populations and one based on what the bible says?
Great blog by the way. Very concise, informative and often times amusing.
Tue Aug 21, 11:13:00 AM 2012
Steve Wells said...
SamEdge, I try to give the biblical number of victims when numbers are given in the text, and estimates when no numbers are provided. Of course, it's hard to give reasonable estimates
to imaginary events, but I do what I can.
Tue Aug 21, 11:34:00 AM 2012
edgar verdin said...
En primer lugar, mataron en nombre de la evolución como la ideología aparece en sus registros de discursos públicos???
Tue Aug 21, 01:10:00 PM 2012
JJ Pearson said...
I apologize for not reading all of the comments, and if the following points have previously been raised, I apologize.
God created a perfect world, with but one restriction, and gave us the opportunity to live
in it. We abused that privilege. Hence, for defying the Creator, we all deserve death and damnation. The fact that God has only directly killed this few is a measure of His mercy and forgiveness. Furthermore, so as not to go against His perfect justice, He provided His
Son as a payment for the debt our sins require.
Tue Sep 04, 08:50:00 AM 2012
wakawakwaka said...
@Bob i am sorry but you are an idiot,they did not kill in the name of evolution , they killed in the name of their own egos,besides hitler hated athiests and banned teaching
evolution in Germany...
Besides how come racists are more likely to be creationists than evoltuionists.....For example all of the creation scientists in Darwins day where EXTREMELY racist, while Darwin himself opposed it, and the kkk and Christian indenity movement are al
creationists as well
Wed Sep 19, 01:53:00 PM 2012
wakawakwaka said...
@ JJ but blood is not required for forgivness from God....like in the book of Jonah
Wed Sep 19, 02:00:00 PM 2012
igorc said...
you know, if you think about it, God actually is responsible for all deaths that have ever taken place. I mean, He did introduce 'death' when He banished Adam from the Garden of Eden, so without that, death wouldn't exist. So there you have it: God is responsible for
100% of the deaths in the world.
Tue Nov 13, 12:46:00 AM 2012