HOUSE OF KEYS.DOUGLAS, TUESDAY, APRIL 13, 1920.

Present: The Speaker (Mr G. F. Clucas, J .P .), Messrs C. Gill, T. Gerald Bridson, E. Callister, F. S. Dalgleish, G. B. Ker- mode, D. J. Teare, It. S. Corlett, J. I). Clucas, T. S. Corlett, W . Kermeen, A. H. Teare, 0 . P . Shimmin, Richard Cain, J. P . Corrin, A. Qualtrough, W. Moore, S. Norris, R . C. Cain, R . B. Moore, J. D. Qualtrough, A. J. Teare, J. L. Goldie- Taubman, and E. J. Curphey. The Secretary (Mr P . D. Gelling) was in attendance.

OLD AGE PENSIONS AND HEALTH INSURANCE.

The Speaker: The Old Age Pensions and Health Insurance Bill, from the Council, is down for first reading. It has not been circulated to the House, but the Bill as it went to the Council has been circulated, and I understand that there are no material alterations. Perhaps the House will be willing to have it read a first time, as 1 understand it is urgent.

Agreed.The Bill was read a first time.Mr A. Q u a ltr o u g h I beg to move that

the Standing Orders be suspended, and that we read the Bill a second time.

The Speaker : You will have to wait until the Bill is circulated.

-T H E EDUCATION BILL.The Speaker: Before the House rose, Mr

Norris had moved as an amendment to clause 5 in the Education Bill, that the word “ eleven” be deleted and “ twelve” inserted, and that one of the electoral districts be the O rich an village district. That was seconded by the hon. member for Middle, Mr Gill, and the hon. member for Glenfaba moved that consideration be adjourned. Does the hon. member wish to speak ?

Mr Callister: I would prefer to reserve my remarks.

The Speaker: The hon. member cannot do that.

Mr Callister: I would like to say that if

this Bill is to be materially altered as regards the method of representation, the likelihood is that when it comes up for third reading, those who are trying to secure the whole of the representation may wake to find that the Bill will not pass at all. I would advise hon. members to be reasonable, and to allow some representation for the country districts. Even though they are so little thought of, you expect some revenue from them, I suppose, and there^ fore we feel justified in asking for reasonable representation from the village and parish districts.

Mr A. H. Teare : I should like to support the amendment providing representation for Onchan. It was my intention to move an amendment affecting to some extent the representation of Douglas, and increasing the number of representatives for that constituency, but I feel that this amendment will go part of the way, at any rate, to meet the situation, and the addition o f a member for Onchan will perhaps obviate the necessity of any further tampering with the composition of the authority. I am glad to be able to associate myself with the hon. member for Rushen, Mr Moore, in thinking that we shall now be well advised to proceed with the Bill, so far as possible, as it stands, without dissecting and dividing it up in perhaps too advanced a manner. I believe the claim for Onchan is good, but I hope the House will be inclined to stop there.

Mr R. B. M oore: I propose to voteagainst the amendment. The moment you start tampering with what is really a well- balanced scheme, you are asking for further trouble. Onchan is very close to Douglas, and one cannot help recognising the fact that it takes all the advantages of the education provided in Douglas, and if you had a member for Onchan, that means that the towns would have a majority, while the present scheme leaves both town and country about equal. It is not that Onchan may not have a certain amount of claim, but when once you re-open the question, you may spend the whole day thresli-

Old Age Pensions and( National Health Insurance.— The Education Bill.

HOUSE OF KEYS, APRIL 13, 1Ö20. 475

iug out a question that we have already discussed at considerable length. AVe have to get on, and there is a considerable amount of legislation before us, and if this scheme commends itself to the House as substantially fair, we ought not to go into the niceties of 'the representation of every little district, but should take it as a whole, and get on to the real question of edueational reform.

On a division there voted :—For the amendment: Messrs T. S. Oorlett, Gill, Bridson, A. Qualtrough, A. H. Teare, Norris, J. D. Qualtrough, and the Speaker — 8. Against: Messrs Callister, Dalgleish, Kermode, R. S. Corlett, J. D. Clucae, I). J. Teare, Richard Cain, Kermeen, Corrin, W . Moore, Sliimmin, R . C. Cain, R. B. Moore, A. J. Teare-, and Goldie-Taubman — 15. The amendment was lost.

Clause 5 was carried.Clause 6 defines the number of members

which each district is entitled to elect.Mr R. B. M oore: I move that. This re

presentation of the electoral districts now suggested was proposed by the old Council of Education. It is not a basis upon which the new Council have anything to say ; we accepted it. We allocate to Douglas eight members, to Ramsey two, to Castletown one, and to Peel one—twelve altogether for the towns; and we allocate to the sis sheadings two members each— twelve members for the country; and the district of Port Erin and Port St. Mary, which is partly town and partly country, to a certain extent, makes the odd number. I said at the outset that I didn’ t suppose any member of the House would agree with the division of representation that was made, and I just realise now that every one of us wants to get a. little more for his own district. But I doubt if, after you have hammered the thing out and out, you will find anything fairer. Neither coulitry nor town predominates; no single district in the Island commands a majority, or is able to dominate the situation. I suppose the district that is in some sense most unfairly represented is Douglas, considered on grounds of population and rateable value; but on the other hand, we in Douglas have the advantage that is bound to accrue from the fact that meetings will be held here, and it is easier for our members to get to the meetings, and perhaps that advantage is worth a, member or two to us in any ordinary meeting. I quite realise that the Douglas School Board,

The Education

who have urged that Douglas should have higher representation, might be able to make a very good case; but it would alter the balance, and we should have to start all over again. I f we work things out arithmetically, we find that the proportions are different in every district. If we tried to make the representation exactly proportional, we should be here till this time next year. I put it to the House that this scheme, which has come from the old Council. is as fairly balanced as you can make it, and does justice to town and country, without submitting any part of the Island to the tyranny of another, and gives the prospect of a, good working Board.

M r J. D. Qualtrough seconded, and the clause was agreed to.

Mr R. B. M oore: This enables us nowo complete clause 4, which we left orer,

as the House will remember, in order to fill in the figure. Clause 4 will now read that the Central Authority shall consist of 29 members, of whom 25 shall be elected in manner provided by this Aot by the registered voters, and four shall be coopted, of whom such number shall be women as shall be required to make up the number of women on the authority to not lees than four. On that, I don’t know wdietlier all members have received a. circular letter from the Isle of Man branch of the National Union of Teachers, which I have had. The teachers suggest that they should have the right to nominate tw o members of the Board. T am not going to move th a t; it doesn’ t arise at this point. I f any member feels very keenly on it, perhaps this will be the best place to raise the question.

The Speaker: Would that be in order? Clauses 4a, 5, and 6, have been passed, and as a result of our decisions on 5 and 6, the figures fall automatically in 4. I don’ t think we can go back on the general question.

Mr R. B. M oore: Then I simply move that the blanks be filled in.

Mr Rio’ "d Cain: I would point out that the educational authorities across the water are composed, in some cases, of ten members appointed by the municipal authority, and then they nominate five educationists to join with them. W e have no provision in this Bill for that, and seeing that the teachers have such an interest in this question, I think it would be advisable to have someone representing the teachers on the Central Authority. I f

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476 k o iM E OF KEYS, APBilL 13, 1920.

that can be done, I think it would be a wise step.

Mr Alfred Teare : I support that, because my feeling is that the child, while it is of elementary school age, is more in the care of the teacher than of the parent.I f anybody is likely to watch carefully the interests of the child during school years, it will be the teacher, and I think that if it is possible, a representative of the teachers should be on the authority.

The Speaker: It is not strictly in order to re-open clause 4a, but it can be done by general consent.

Mr J. D. Qualtrougb : I think the question was fairly well considered by the House at its last sitting. Whilst this question of appointing teacher representatives j was not definitely threshed out, I think members had in mind, when discussing the general co-optation of members, the possibility of co-opting teachers, and a compromise was finally accepted that four persons should be co-opted, which gives, iu certain instances------

Mr Richard Ca,in : Not necessarily men.Mr J. D. Qualtrough : Teachers, after

all, are not necessarily men. I take it that if there is a strong view that teachers should be on the Authority, the members of the Central Authority, when coopting, can carry out that view.

The Speaker : I suggest that it is open to the Legislative Council to insert such a provision.

Mr Norris : It is open to the Central Authority to do what is done in England— co-opt teachers on the boards of managers.

Mi’ Richard Cain : I f no women areelected by the people, the co-opted members will all have to be women.

Mr Kermode : They might be lady teachers.

Mr R . B. Moore : Seeing that it is not the general wish of the House to re-open the clause, I think you have ruled, sir, that we cannot go back upon it.

Clause 4 as amended by the insertion of the figures was agreed to.

Clause 7 provides that the franchise for elections to the Central Authority shall be the House, of Keys franchise.

Mr R. B. M oore: I move that clause. It follows the lines of the existing qualifications for the election of School Boards and Higher Education Authorities. It is not the adult suffrage franchise which

operates in House of Keys elections, but the more restricted franchise under which local government elections take place. The Council have followed that because, to begin with, it is the rule in England. The Representation of the People Act, which adopted adult suffrage for Parliamentary elections, was not extended to local government elections, and of course it would be introducing an entirely new principle to have persons other than ratepayers voting for rating boards. The lion, member for Ayre, Mr Cain, has given notice of motion to widen the franchise, and I shall have an opportunity to speak on that. All I need say at present is that this is following the principle which is already established, and that when you come to change it, you have to' remember that you are dealing not with a Parliamentary election, in which everyone has a direct interest in the questions at stake, but with an election to a

. rating Board, where the principle followed ! in the past has been that the ratepayers

are the only persons entitled to vote.Mr J. D. Qualtrough: I second the

j adoption of the clause as it stands. I would simply point out that this has always been the basis of election in educational matters, and also that no other scheme was before the country at the last General Election, and it was certainly a surprise to me, and probably to others, to see that a different basis was proposed. I don’t know that the country at the present moment is prepared to endorse this proposal, which they have not had before them, and I think the House will be well- advised to stick to the basis now proposed.

Mr Richard Cain : I move as an amendment—

That the the House of Keys franchise be substituted for the Local Government franchise provided by the Bill.

I t is with a view of gaining an increased interest in education that I move this amendment, which gives to the mothers of the children, and to the young people, who are the future fathers and mothers, the opportunity of voting for members of the Central Authority. It must be patent that people who are advanced in years, or people who have property in the district, but do not reside in the district, will not have the same interest in the education of the young as people of from 21 to 30, who, not being married, have no votes, and yet are the persons whom we may depend upon tio makei this Bill ai succiess. I t is said that it is not a proper thing for persons

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HOUSE OP KEYS, APRIL 13, 1920. 477

who are not ratepayers to send representatives to a hody which has to levy a orate. But I would point out that the ratepayers are not providing all the cost of education, and that education stands in a different position from that of any other form of local government. A deputation some time ago waited upon the President of the Board of Trade, or some other Minister, asking that the Parliamentary franchise should he extended to municipal elections.I have no doubt that it will be -said by another speaker later on that the fact that that principle has not been adopted in England is a reason why we should not adopt it here. But I think that is one of the reasons why we should adopt it here. The very fact of people in England asking for it there shows that there is a feeling in the country in that direction. I would not be- in favour of the Parliamentary franchise being used in all local government elections, because in Douglas, for example, matters of water and lamps and streets and trams belong to the ratepayers of Douglas exclusively. But in education, where the ratepayers do not provide more than half of the money, and where the tendency is to make the proportion paid by the ratepayers a. diminishing quantity, I maintain that, if we are to- proceed oil progressive and democratic lines, it is only fair that the young people and the mothers should be given the opportunity of voting. Another amendment has been circulated by the lion, member for North Douglas, Mr Norris, which goes a long way in support of what I am contending for. He suggests that the wives of ratepayers should be allowed to vote. Once you accept the principle of having the mothers included, you have to remember the sons and daughters, who have been fighting for the eoun. try, and who have made progress, and indeed the maintenance o-f all our free institutions, possible, and who are surely deserving o-f some rights of citizenship. I am told that 8,000 young people went from the Island to fight in the war, and probably 5,000 or 6,000 of them are in the Island to-day. I met a young lady the other day, who had been helping in the war, and I asked her, “ What have you been doing?” She said, “ I was in charge of a hospital train in Italy, and two of my sisters are nurses. My brothers, too, have all been fighting or have been engaged in Government duties connected with the war.” There are thousands of people like that in the Island— quite as able and competent, and more interested by far, than

many of the ratepayers who have the franchise. I f you want to imbue the young people with a proper enthusiasm for education, the best way is to give them a share in the control. The very thing that we are complaining o f in this Legislature is that we have not control, and this lack of control all tends to- lessen interest in matters affecting the welfare o f the public. In England, in 1902, they did away with the parish hoards, and set up a new system Altogether. But they found that interest in education had diminished enormously, and the only way to bring it back was to get the members of the old boards appointed as managers. But even then they find, in the agricultural districts especially, that public interest ha-s diminished enormously. How are you going to have interest in education maintained unless you have some system by which people who are young and energetic and intelligent have some share in its administration ? Unless the system proposed in this Bill of electing managers for the different schools, a manager might live in the district or lie might not, and you are up against a very big order if you think you can simply press a button and make everybody march in time. But I am satisfied that the scheme which I propose should commend itself to all the members of the House, especially the progressive members. Many members are like a horse and trap which I saw crossing the Sulby river the other day. The horse was up to its knees in water, and a strong current was running. It got safely to the other side, but after crossing the river, it shied at a. pool about a yard wide, and nearly overturned the trap. I. find that many members of the House of Keys are like that. (Laughter.) They -«all shy at anything which really does give effect to the wishes of the democracy, but they will take a nine-barred gate at one leap if they find there is Constitutional Reform on the other side. I suggest that the way to make this Bill a real live factor in the development of education in the Island, is to give to the young people and the mothers a real live interest in the matter.

Mr Alfred Tea-re seconded the amendment.

Mr A. H . Teare: I recognise that the time of the House is valuable, and therefore that it is not advisable to make long speeches. I would like to point out that there are two parties, first, there is the taxpayer, who has to find a considerable

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478 HOUSE OF KEYS, A PM Tj 13, 1920.

proportion of the money, and secondly, there is the ratepayer. The taxpayer is represented in Tynwald, and on financial matters can make his voice felt. They will have most valuable control in the interests of taxpayers, and the ratepayers can make their voice heard on the Central Authority at the local elections.

The amendment was put and lost, the division being :—F o r : Messrs R. Cain,Brid&on, Corrin, A. Qualtrough, Shimmin, and A. J. Teare—8’. Against: Messrs Cal- lister, Dalgleish, Kermode, R. S. Corlett, J. D. Clucas, D. J. Teare, T. S. Corlett, Kermeen, Gill, W. Moore, A. H. Teare, Norris, R . C. Cain. R. B. Moore, Goldie- Taubman, J. D. Qualtrough, and the Speaker— 17.

Mr Norris moved—The persona entitled to vote at an election of

members for any electoral district under this Act shall be—

(a) In Douglas, the persons whose names appear upon the burgees lists for the time being in operation;

(b) In any other electoral district, the registered voters for the time being upon the register of voters made under the Loo.il Ballot Act for any local Govern ment district ard who are entitled to vote for the commissioners of any local government district wholly or partly within the electoral district under this Act; and

c) The wives of any such burgesses and registered voters aforesaid, and whose name * appear on the last register of voters for such diftfru t, made under the House of Keys Election Acts: Provided that a voter 'eiball be entitled to vote in one district only, and to vote only once, for a3 many candidates as there are vacancies in that district.

Mr Norris (continuing): I hope that I will be able to convince the House that my amendment is in a different position to the amendment that has just been lost. I could not bring myself to vote for the House of Keys franchise, for the reason that the electors would not be responsible for the provision of the funds, the same as ratepayers j)re It seems to me that that to extend the full House of Keys franchise to the election of the Central Authority would be unworkable. Members "'ill see that I have drafted word for word the clause in the Bill with the addition that the wives of the ratepayers shall also be electors. Who are these people I propose should be added ? They are mothers, and are ratepayers quite as much as their husbands are, they work, and they are responsible for the payment of the rates. I venture to say that to a,n

even greater extent than the men, the women are responsible for the payment of the rates, and on that ground are entitled to vote. Also, they are the mothers of the children who are to be educated. It is said that taxpayers provide half the money that will be required for education, but a man who occupies property pays 100 times as much as he would do if he was only a taxpayer. The proposal I make is a reasonable one, and I hope it will be accepted.

Mr A. Qualtrough seconded.I The amendment was then put and lost,' only Messrs Conrin, A. Qualtrough, Shim

min, and Norris voting for.Mr Norris : I now move a further amend

ment, if I am in order. After the word “ once” there should be added “ and in one district only.” That means that o-ne man will only have one vote and not be entitled to vote in several districts in which he holds nrowerty.

Mr J. T>. Clucas: Is the lion, member in order in moving a second amendment to the same clause ?

The Speaker: He is in order.Mr Norris : Tinder the clause as it stands

the property qualification for the election of the school authority is continued.

The Speaker: I am afraid I must amend my previous ruling. The hon. member is not in order.

Mi' A. Qualtrough : I beg to move the amendment the hon. member has i-ead out.

Mr A. H. Teare: The hon. member does not know what the amendment is. (Laughter.)

Mr A. Qualtrough: T know the meaning of it.

Mr Alfred Teare: It is to do away with the plural vote. I will second it.

Mr Nonris: I am in order in speaking in support of it. It means one vote, one value; one ratepayer, one vote. In the clause as it stands, a man might have 25 votes if he has property in the 25 districts.

Mr J. D. Qualtrough: There is a. good deal to be said for the amendment, but there will be considerable difficulty in making out a list of voters. As the clause stands the lists as prepared for the Commissioners and Poor Law Guardians will be available, but if the amendment is carried, a new list will have to be made out, which will include only those electors living in the district, and owners living outside the district will be struck out.

The Education Bill.

HOUSE OF KEYS, APRIL 13, 1920. 47

Mr Rridson: There will be 110 difficulty, as a. man will only be able to vote in tlie district in which he lives^

Mr R. B. M oore: I agree with theamendment if it was made to apply to the House of Keys arid every other election. If the lion, member would bring it in as a separate measure, to apply to all elections, it would receive a good deal of support, but it is not a. matter that should be introduced into a Bill of this sort.

The amendment was then put and lost, the voting being:—F or : Messrs Bridson, Corrin, A. Qualtrough, Shimmin, Norris, R. C. Cain, and A. J. Teare—7. Against: Messrs Callister, Dalgleish, Kermode, 1!. S. Corlett, J. D. Clucas, I). J. Teare, Richard Cain, T. S. Corlett, Kermeen, Gill, W. Moore, A. H. Teare, R . B. Moore, Goldie- Taubman, J. D. Qualtrough, and the Speaker— 16.

Mr Norris : I trust- that the House will be more amenable to the new clause of which I have given n otice :—

A woman whose name is on the burgess lisi or register of voters for local government dis

tricts referred to in the preceding clause shall not be debarred from voting merely by reaeon of her marriage.

Mr J. D. Qualtrough: I f they are married, how do they get on the list of voters?

Mr J. D. Clucas: They can only be on as spinsters or widows.

Mr N orris: No. Married women are on the list. Supposing a married woman who is living apart from her husband keeps a house, she pays the rates, and the rate collector puts her name on the list, and she ought to be entitled to vote. But is she entitled to- vote? No, because she is a married woman living away from her husband. She is liable to pay the rates, but cannot v-ote. This is because a married woman lias no rights in the Island, and I wish all married women, whether in this position or not, to have a vote under this Act. I move the clause.

Mr J. D. Qualtrough: If a woman’ sname is on the list, she is entitled to vote.

Mr Norris: No, she is not. The return- ing-officers have held that because she is a. married woman she is not entitled to vote.

Mr G ill: Is this not a. matter for the Married 'Women’s Property Act?

Mr Norris : No, it is not.The Speaker: We had better have the

amendment seconded if y-ou are going to discuss it.

Mr A. Qualtrough : I second the amendment.

Mr R. B. M oore: I t is quite true that under the Bill a married woman is not entitled to' vote, but if her name appears on the list she is so entitled to vote. Anyone at all whose name is on the list of voters can vote. In a recent election in England a, boy six years old, whose name appeared on the list o f voters by mistake, was entitled to vote, and did vote, and the re- turning-officer had no power to refuse. I think that the hon. member is wrong in saying that women' whose names are on the list have been refused a vote. They may have no right to be on, hut if their name is on the list, they can vote.

Mr N orris: No.Mr R. B. Moore : Not if she is on the

list ?Mr A. Qualtrough: I know personally

that women have been refused the vote who were on the list for the parish of Bu alien.

Mr Norris : The same thing happened in On chan.

The amendment was put and lost, the voting being:— F or: Messrs Bridson, Corrin, A. Qualtrough, Shimmin, Norris, R . C. Cain, and A. J. Teare— 7. Against: Messrs Callister, Dalgleish, Kermode, R . S. Corlett, J. D. Clucas, D. J. Teare, R. Cain, T. S. Corlett, Kermeen, Gill, W . Moore, A. H. Teare, R. B. Moore, Goldie-Taubman, J. B. Qualtrough, and the Speaker— 16.

Mr Norris: As the House has not adopted my previous amendment, I beg to withdraw the other amendment of which I have given notice.

[The amendment divided Douglas into districts for election purposes.]

Agreed.Mr N orris: I beg to move an additional

clause:—The polling places «hall be fixed so a« to in

clude all voters resident in that particular district or part of a district.

I hope the House will carry this, so that the polling places shall be so fixed so as to enable all people to vote with the least inconvenience. The House will no doubt be aware that in the elections in Douglas the polling places are fixed in alphabetical order, and in order to vote people had to travel to the booths furthest from their own homes. The amendment provides that these booths must be placed in the districts where the people reside.

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480 HOUSE OF KEYS, APRIL 13, 1920.

Mr Callister: I second that, and I would like to say a good deal in favour of the proposal. I am rather surprised that the member for North Douglas, while he recognises the great inconvenience caused Douglas, did not recognise the inconvenience caused in the country districts when we wished to divide the electoral districts into parishes. They have to come all the way from Dalby Laggs to Patrick school to vote. I do think in all these elections that we ought to have more booths and more convenient places for the people in each parish. If we don’t have some reform in this respect, I quite see that we will not get the people to vote, and we will not have the return of voters we ought to have, as it is impossible for some to spare the time to vote.

Mr J. D. Clucas: I believe in New Zear land an elector can vote at any booth.

Mr Richard Cain : In a, recent election in Ay re, 50 or 60, or at any rate less than 100 people in the parish voted because of the inconvenience o f the booths. We ought to have in the School Board elections at least as many booths as they have in a House of Keys election.

Mr R B. Moore : In the Registration of Voters and Election by Ballot Act, 1904, it is provided— “ The returning officer shall provide a sufficient number of polling places for the accommodation of the electors entitled to vote in such district, and shall distribute the polling places amongst those electors in such a manner as he thinks most- convenient.”

Mr N orris: It is not so much a question of the number of booths, blit that they have to vote alphabetically instead of in areas.

M r R. B. Moore : It is a matter for the re turnin g-officer.

Mr W. Moore : And he makes them vote alphabetically.

Mr J. D. Qualtrough : There is a. good deal to be said for the suggestion that the number of palling booths ought to be increased. There ought to be three or four in Rushen, and three or four in Malew, but I don’ t see that the amendment provides for that.

M r Dalgleish : Just a word of light on the matter. I think with the hon. member who has charge of the Bill, that we simply want more polling booths, where it will be easy to vote. That is the whole need of the thing.

The amendment was negatived without a division.

Clause 7 as it appeared in the Bill was then passed.

Several clauses dealing with the method of election, appointment of retiring officers, etc., were adopted, with slight drafting alterations.

Clause 14, which provided that the elected members of the Council should be appointed within 14 days, was. struck out as uunecessary.

Mr N orris: I will propose a new cia.use in the place of clause 14, that members of the Council of Education shall not be eligible for election as members of the Central Authority. There is no provision at present that members of the Council cannot act as members of the Central Authority.

Mr R . B. M oore: Members of the Council of Education cannot at present sit on School Boards. This clause should be in the Bill. I second it.

Agreed.Clause 17 deals with the appointment of

managers or governors by the Central Authority.

Mr R . B. M oore: I beg to move that clause, and that at the end be added— “ A person shall not be disqualified from being a manager or g o v e rn « by reason of his being a teacher in another school of the Central Authority, or otherwise employed by such Authority.” That will enable us to get the benefit of the teachers’ experience.

Mr J. D. Qualtrough seconded.Mr Richard Cain : I would like the hon.

member to explain this section:—The Central Authority may, it they think

tit, from tinii to time delegate any of their powers (except as hereinafter excepted) under t.liia Act or the Education Acts, except the power of raising money, and, in particular, may delegate the control and management of any school provided by them with or without any conditions or lestriations to a body of managers or governors appointed by them consisting of not lew than three persons. The Central Authority may. from time to time, remove all or any of such managers or governors, and, within the limits allowed by this section, add to or

HOUSE OF KEYS, APRIL 13, 1920 481

Mr R. B. M oore: This gives a general power o f control, so that the managers can be granted almost absolute powers, or such restricted powers as the Central Authority desire. As a matter of fact, what will probably happen is what has happened in the Eastern District. What has been done there has been to appoint the representative from the district governors or tljeir school, along with some outside representative. They have power to deal with all the details of the management of the school, but everything they do is subject to confirmation by the Board. It is a system that has« been established in the Island for eleven years, and has worked well.

Mr Richard Cain : Two different classes o f school managers may result.

Mr R. B. M oore: What will probably happen will ble that the Islfind will be divided into four bodies, which will deal with all the details in their districts, leaving the Central Authority to deal with big policies. They will have wide powers, and we don’ t want to tie their hands too nijuch.

The clause was agreed to.Clause 20 deals with disqualification of

members o f the Central Authority and governors and managers.

Mr R. B. M oore: This will disqualify a teacher from acting as a governor unless we add, “ except as provided bv Section 17.”

Mr J. D. Qualtrough: Will teachers be paid as governors?

Mr Kermode : No, or they will be g et ting paid twice for the same work.

Mr J. D. Clucas: W e might leave the clatise over till w© come to that dealing with the payment of members.

Agreed.Clause 21 provides for the appointment

o f officers and teachers by the Central Authority, and provides that no appointment or removal of directors of education, inspectors, or medical officers, shall take effect until approved by the Council.

Mr A. H. Teare: What is the exact meaning of this, that the teachers and other officers can be appointed by the Central Authority, but that the medical officer and director of education can only be appointed or dismissed if approved by the Council of Education. Under this, the Central Authority will have no power to remove or dismiss a medical officer or director. Might T ask the reason for that provision?

Mr R. B. M oore: Perhaps I ought to have given an explanation. I want to remind the House of the changes proposed by this section. Under the present Edii- cation Acts the School Boards and the Higher Education Boards cannot dismiss a head teacher without the approval of the Council of Education. The reason for that was no doubt that with these little authorities more or less local matters might be introduced into the question, and this must have been felt from the very first, as it appears in the Act of 1872, and head teachers have had the right to appeal to an outside body. It is a protection that has been extremely useful. Without going into details, there have been cases where

. differences of opinion have arisen between the head masters and the Board, not on educational grounds, and the Council have had to exercise the power that a teacher should only be dismissed on educational grounds. That was, o f course, desirable, with little local authorities, but now that there is to be one authority for the Island, these little local differences will be overridden owing to the wider area. No teacher will be under one little district authority, but will really have an appeal to the Central Authority. For instance, if the present Board at Marown wished to dismiss their head teacher, they would have to. get the approval of the Council of Education, and under the new Bill the Marown governors will have to get the approval of the Central Authority. W ith reference to. the director of education and the medical officer. these are not local officials. They are not under any branch managers, and therefore in their cases it was felt that these officers will have a right of appeal to some outside authority.

Mr Alfred le a r e : I move the insertion of the words “ certificated and uncertificated teachers” after the words “ director of education,” which will give the teachers the same protection as the director and the medical officer.

Mr A. H. Teare: It will cause trouble if this clause is inserted, because if the Council do not confirm the decision of the Central Authority they would be looking for trouble. I would like to point out that the Central Authority are directly elected by a, vote of the people, and if theiir decision is not carried out in such extremely important matters there will be trouble.

Mr R. Cain : I think that the last three lines— “ Provided that no appointment or removal of a director or medical officer

The Education Bill,

482 HOUSE OF KEYS, APRIL, 13, 1920.

shall take effect until approved by the Council,” should be struck out.

M r Callister: I second the amendment of the hon. member For South Douglas.

Mr R. B. M oore: That goes further than the Acts at present. This will mean that no teacher can be dismissed without the approval of the Council, and the Act only protects head teachers. You are asking the Council of Education to take the whole authority into its hands.

M r Alfred Teare : All teachers shouldhave a right of appeal just the same as those in a higher position.

Mr J. D. Qualtrough: I would like to point out that we have now before us two directly opposite views. The hon. member Tor Sokith Douglas wants to increase the powers of the Council of Education, and the hon. member for Ayre wants to do away with it altogether in regard to this matter. Might I suggest that the clause as it is printed holds the balance between the tw o? The director of education is an extremely important officer, and it is only reasonable that the Council should have the approval of his appointment or removal. That approval is surely not exercised in an arbitrary manner, and the Council and the Central Authority are not likely to fall out over the matter. I suggest that you carry the clause as it stands.

The amendment proposed by Mr Alfred Teare was lost without a division.

Mr Richard Cain : I now move that the last three lines of the clause be struck out. The Central Authority are the proper people to have control of the director of education and the medical officer.

Mr J. D. Clucas: I beg to second that. If two parties are to have control, it will not work satisfactorily. I think that there is no doubt that the Central Authority should have control of its own officials. I think that you will find that the whole thing will work more smoothly if the people who give the orders have the power of dismissal. I agree with the hon. member for Ramsey that if the Central Authority wish to dismiss any of these officials, and the Council disagree, it will cause bother and will cause a new election.

Mr A. H. Teare: I am not prepared to go as far as the hon. member. There are two sides to this question, and occasions may arise where there woSuld be a very serious difference of opinion on policy between the director or the medical officer and the Central Authority. The Authority may say that this is our policy, which you must carry out, and then there would be an ap

peal to the Council o f Education, and a flurther appeal, if necessary, to Tynwald. I quite see that the pa'oposal is a safeguardto a man of strong independent views, such as the director of education or the medical officer might be. On the other hand, there is a possibility of conflict between the two bodies. The hon. member for Castletown has pointed out that the Council will exercise thei.r power of veto with wisdom and discretion Though I do: think that there is danger of a conflict, I would not go as far as to remove the safeguard.

Mr Corrin : I beg to s.upport the amendment, as there should be one la,w for the teachers and for the medical officer and director o f education. I also' support it for another reason, as I see the possibility of trouble if there is a conflict between the Central Authority and the Council of Education, so that it would be wiser to delete that part of the clause altogether.

The amendment was put and carried on a division, the voting being :—For : Messrs Dalgleish, R. S. Corlett, J. D. Clfacas, D. J. Teare, R . Cain, T. S. Corlett, Bridson, Corrin, W . Moore, Shimmin, Norris, andA. J. Teare— 12. Against: Messrs Ker- mode, Kermeen, A. H. Teare, R . C. Cain, R. B. Moore, Goldie-Taubman, J. D. Qualtrough, and the Speaker— 8.

Mr R B . M oore: Clause 24 is rather a high-sounding clause, which comes from the Fisher Bill of 1918. Within it is wrapped a really very serious principle. I t becomes now a duty, where it previously was a power, not only to provide for elementary education, but to provide a scheme for the progressive development and comprehensive organisation of education in every part of the Island. It becomes the absolute duty of the Central Authority, when required by ’ the Council of Education, to siubmit schemes to the Council, showing the manner in which the powers given under the A ct are to be exercised. The phrasing is very fine, but it is more than fine phrasing —it really means business.

Mr K erm een: Are any penalties provided ?

Mr R . B. M oore: Oh, yes, there are any amount of provisions in case the Central Authority fails to discharge its duties. The Council of Education may cut down the grant, or even refuse it altogether. The clause sets up a very high ideal; it is a great step forward, which contains the kernel of a.ll the fu tu re; the rest of the Bill is machinery for putting .the ideal into practice.

The clause was agreed to.

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HOUSE OF KEYS, APRIL 18, 1920 483

CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM.— NO REPLY YET FROM THE HOME OFFICE.Mr N orris: Before we adjourn for

lunch, I would like to ask if any communication lias been received from the Lieutenant-Governor as to the Home Secretary’ s decision on the subject on which a deputation from this House interviewed the Home Secretary?

The Speaker: No communication haJ- .yet been received. I understand that a short time ago a letter was sent from Government Office, asking the Home Offioe authorities to let us know a« soon as possible. I have heard indirectly, but not officially, that Mr Wilkin, who is the official of the Treasury who dleals with our affairs, wau hastily summoned to Jersey in connection with some trouble ihat has arisen there. That may occasion a short delay.

Mr Norris : Would it help matters if a deputation waited upon the Governor today to obtain information, and to urge his Excellency to ask the Home Offioe to ex-¡-rdiatc matters?

Agreed.The Speaker nominated Messrs Norri*

and J. D. Olucas to serve on the deputation.

Later in the day,Mr Norris reported : His Exoellency said

he was in communication with the Home Office, who had promised to send a letter to lay before the House giving their decisions. His Excellency has urged within f - c 1-st few clays, bv telegram and by letter, that they should send an early communication on this ‘subject.

Mr Olucas : No decision has been arrived at yet, but as soon as it comes, we are to have it communicated to this House.

THE-PRICE OF BREAD.— DEPUTATION APPOINTED TO INTERVIEW THE

GOVERNOR,Mr Alfred Teare: Before this deputation

waits on his Excellency, I would like them also to bring before him the question of the bread crisis, and ascertain what steps his Excellency intends to take in the matter.

The Speaker: Do you think it is possible that the deputation may be met by his Excellency saying that the steps he proposes to take depend upon his having an opportunity of consulting the members of the Tynwald Court?

Mr R. B. Moore: I think things are

getting to the point when we shall have to consider meeting in Tynwald. There are before us very grave matters of great public urgency This big bread question is coming on, and here we are with out hands over our mouths, unable to say a single word upon a matter that may involve anything up to a general strike, and which must at least affeot every home most seriously. It means that we are leaving the Governor to act upon his own responsibility, and we cannot say a single word tapoin whatever1 (happens .afterwards, because we have shut ourselves from his counsels. 1 suggest that we should, this afternoon, consider whether or not we should go back to discuss this matter. In addition to that, the Old Age Pension grant will expire in a few weeks— four or five, I think,—and from that day onward, the Governor has no money to pay for pensions, and the very earliest date at which you can get the new Bill through will not be in time.

Mr Norris: Are we in that position today? Is there any reason in the world why the deputation shotdd not ascertain from his Excellency what attitude he proposes to take on the bread question? It is a very big question, but are our mouths shut ? It is always open to the House to pass a resolution. I submit that, as a matter of urgency, the House should, this afternoon, pass a motion on the bread question, and ascertain the position taken up by the executive government of this Island. To say that we are bound to go back to Tynwald in order to discuss this and other vital questions, is to cut down the powers of the House to an extent to which I think the House will never agree. I support the hon. member for South Douglas in asking his Excellency for information on this matter, also. I have drafted a resolution to this effect: ‘ ‘That theHouse is of opinion that bread should be made available to the poorer and labouring classes of this Island at not more than 9d per 41b. loaf, and requests his Excellency---------- ”

The Speaker: That should be brought on later. The question is, whether a deputation should ask for information with regard to the bread subsidy. Is the House agreeable ?

Agreed.The Speaker: With regard to any motion

which hon. members may wish to move, I would point out that no motion would he in order which would infringe upon the

Constitutional Reform.— The Price of Bread.—Deputation Appointed to Interviewthe Governor.

484 HOUSE OF KEY'S, A PB IL 13, 1920.

privileges of the Tynwald Court. We cannot carry on the business -of the Tynwa'd Court constitutionally in two separate bodies.

M r Norris: We may express an opinion The Speaker: W e can express an

opinion upon anything.The House then adjourned for luncheon. Later on in the day,Mr Norris, who with Mr J. D, Clucas

formed the deputation said: With regard to the question o f the bread subsidy, the deputation obtained a certain amount of opinion which it was thought extremely desirable to lay before the House and the public. To begin with, the common impression is that the subsidy is being reduced. The subsidy which has been paid since the scheme first became operative has not been reduced in the least. The full amount of the subsidy is being paid to-day, and will continue to be paid.

Mr Richard Cain : In England p Mr N orris: Both in England and in

the Isle of Man. That subsidy amounts to 24s per sack, and the amount which has been paid from the revenue of the past financial year, which lias just ended, was £55,000 13s 9d. The whole of that ha® been charged to the Income Tax account. His Excellency pointed out to us that, if this Island was to be called upon to provide a further subsidy to meet the increased cost of the loaf, namely, 3Jd, it would increase the subsidy by practically an equal amount, certainly to £50,000. I may say at once that his Excellency gave no hope whatever that he, as the head of the Executive, could be expected to provide an additional subsidy cf that description, or to provide any additional subsidy.

Mr Gill: Did he say “any subsidy,’ o>' did he mean that he would continue thf-

f old subsidy9Mr Norris: Oh, the old subsidy is to be

continued. There is no intention in England to increase the subsidy, and his Excellency has no intention to depart from the existing arrangement, which leaves the Isle of Man exactly on all fours with Eng land. The reason for the increase is that the price of wheat imported into the United Kingdom has increased by 19s 3d per sack, and that increase has to be met by the consumer. That means an increase of 2d.— (Mr A. H. Teare: 2Jd.)—-per 41b. loaf, and the further rise of a penny, if the price is to be Is Id, is due to the increased cost of Pabour, and freights, and other

charges. His Excellency lias had the master bakers before him, so lie assured us, and went thoroughly into the question, and while he has not agreed that the price should be Is Id, yet he seemed to be of the opinion, upon his present information—he is not tied—that Is Id is a fair charge, in view of the statements made by the master bakers that they are immediately met by increased wages and other increased charges. In view of this information, and o f the attitude— [ think I may say the correct attitude— which his Excellency has taken in the matter, I cannot feel that I ought to move the, resolution which I mentioned this morning— although I did .wonder, when the matter was - being discussed with his (Excellency, whether it would not be possible in some form to reduce the cost from Is Id to something in the neighbourhood of 9d to those people who cannot get increased wages, those with fixed incomes, the new poor as well as the old poor, old age pensioners, and the like. But we are confronted with the great antagonism which existed, and still exists, and naturally exists, to a scheme for giving assistance to any section of the community which would imply charity. But I am sure that if any reasonable sc: erne, reasonable in cost, and going to the right quarters, oould b propounded — I am now speaking for myself, and not as a member o f the deputation—I should be only too delighted to support it, even if it involved a certain amount of increased subsidy I trust the House will be satisfied with the information which the deputation have elicited.

Mr Clucas: What the lion, member for North Douglas has said is what his Excellency told us. Personally, I was under the impression that the subsidy in England had been redueed, and I think that was the view of several members. But it seems there has been no reduction in the subsidy whatever, neither has there been here. A charge has arisen owing to the increase in the price of flour, but the English Government has refused to advance any further subsidy, and similarly, the Governor here has refused to advance. That is, we shall continue to pay the old subsidy, but no more. Flour has gone up, as the hon. member has said, at the rate of 19< 3d per sack. The price was 43s 9d, and 19s 3d is added to that. We were told th -t the export licence was 24s. As regards the present price o e bread, 2d per loaf would meet the increased cost

The Price of Bread.— Deputation Appointed to Interview the Governor,

HOUSE OF KEYS, APRIL 13, 1920 4S5

caused by the rise in flour.— (Mr A. H, Teare : 2Jd.)— Take it at 2£d, then. But the increase over and above that was caueed, I understand— I was surprised to hear it—by the operative bakers saying, “ If you increase the nrice of flour, you must increase our wages. ’ Whether that is necessary or not, it means that by in creasing the wage in that way, you in crease the price of bread not only to yourselves, but to the rest of the community, many of whom have fixed incomes, and cannot get increases. On the question oi whether the price should be Is Id, his Excellency stated that he had gone very carefully into the matter with the master bakers, and he was satisfied at the present that Is Id was a, fair and reasonable charge.- He is not tied, but he is mot going to say tliat Is Id is not fair. Of course, it may be said that some bakers could possibl) bake for less than that. But, on the othet hand, if you reduce the price, you mighl drive some of the smaller men out o f the business altogether, and that means reducing the bread production. That consideration has to be kept in mind, and taking all these facts into account, his Excellency is of the opinion that Is Id is a fair and reasonable charge to make, to cover these various extra charges.

Mr Alfred Teare: May I ask the depu tation whether the operative bakers have received these increased wages? It seems rather unfair to throw the blame upon the shoulders of the operative bakers.

Mr Clucas: We are only reporting what was told us.

Mr Alfred Teare: I don’t know that the men have yet received the extra wages; but I do know that the public are paying Ls Id per loaf.

Mr Olucas: I understand the increased price only came into operation on Monday.I take it that the operative baker's will not get their increased wages until next Saturday.

Mr J. D. Qualtrough: That would be a matter of agreement between master and man. And, if no agreement has already been entered into, it is obvious that the bakers are making an extra penny on the loaf.

Mr A. H. Teare: l'eruaps the hon. member for South Douglas can inform us as to this ? Is it not a fact that the operatives applied for an increase of 14s per week, and an offer was made of 10s ? No doubt the hon. member has some knowledge.

Mr Alfred Teare: I know that an application was made, but I am not sure that the increase has been given. I would also like to ask whether the Governor has any assurance that all the flour that is being used in the production of the loaf at Is Id is being paid for at this increased price of 19s Sd, or whether bakers have not in stock great quantities of flour purchased quite recently at the lower price?

Mr Clucas: We did not get tihat information.

Mr A. H. Teare: A Ramsey baker,tvhom I interviewed on this subject, informed me that a return had to be made of the stocks in hand, and they had to pay an additional 19s 3d per sack for every pound of flour they had in stock, under, I believe, a very severe penalty.

Mr R. B. M oore: Is this subject really open to discussion? I have quite a lot to say, if it is.

The Speaker: There should be somemotion before the House before we have a general discussion. We have merely received the report of the deputation.

Mr R . B. Moore: Apparently, then, we must continue to ask questions of the members of the. deputation. May I ask if they called the attention of the Governor to the fact tihat the loaf is being sold in London, where expenses are much greater than they are here, at Is, and in some areas at l l j d ? May I ask if they also inquired from his Excellency whether, seeing that the extra penny is put on to meet the extra 10s per week in wages, and therefore represents 120 loaves per week— whether he thinks that an operative baker can only turn out 120 loaves per week? This subject is as thorny with difficulties as anything can well be. May I ask if the deputation inquired of his Excellency whether the master bakers had produced their books, and shown whether this extra penny was clear profit, or not ?

Mr Clucas: It was stated that ls Id was the price in Liverpool.

Mr R. B. M oore- That is beoause they happen to have a big union of master bakers in Liverpool, as they happen to have in the Isle of Man.

Mr Olucas: We did not debate thematter with his Excellency.

Mr R. B. M oore: I think the House will see that this is a matter which ought to he debated in Tynwald.

The Price of -Bread.—Deputation Appointed to Interview the Governor,

486 HOUSE OF KEYfe, APRIL 13, 1920.

Mr B. C. Gain: Perhaps the House will expect me to say something on this matter, i want to assure the House that I am not ,a the least degree financially interested in what the Governor may do in this connection. The lion, member for Ayr© told . lie House that the increased price of flour ,-i 19s 3d per sack. Quite correct. And the freight to the Isle of Man is 3s Id per jack more than to London.

Mr R . B. M oore: They don’ t pay aquarter as much in Income Tax.

Mr R . C. Cain: I have gone into the natter very carefully, so that I could judge

whether the price asked to-day was reasonable, or otherwise. I think that it was in October that the price was advanced to S)id. I think you yourselr, sir, were a .nember of the Arbitration Board who met the master bakers. You fixed the price at that time at 9|d, on account of the increased cost to the baker. But there was also a provision that the baker could charge more than that in the case of delivery. Now, the custom in the Isle of Man has been—I am not going to argue whether it is wise, or not— to deliver the bread for the same price as that for which it is sold in the shop. Eighty per cent, of the bread baked in the Isle of Man is delivered, while under 16 per cent, is delivered in London. You will see that there is a great deal of difference.

Mr R B. M oore: They save shop rents.Mr R . C. Cain: If the hon. member had

to have a horse and cart on the road today—*1 have figured it out as closely as possible— it would cost him £o a week, and then 1 am giving the minimum. With regard to the last advance in wages, as to -whether it is 10s or 4s, I understand that 14s is to be paid to the men either this Saturday, or the week after- -at all events, they have got the assurance that they are to get 14s. With regard to the point raised by the hion. member for South Douglas, as to existing stocks of flour, it is rather a difficult question to answer, except to say th is: The Isle of Man during the last two years has come under the “ Remote Districts Clause.” When you are ordering flour from across the water, you have to fill in certain forms, to show how your stocks are. But the Isle of Man, not being absolutely sure of its regular supply, came under the clause dealing with remote districts, and it was possible for a man to get a greater supply than, perhaps, he would otherwise

have got. Whether there has been any incentive to get an extra suppiy in, I cannot say. I admit that, if I had been in business myself, T would have done it on this occasion, for this reason : Flour today is inferior to flour supplied three weeks ago. That is an inducement to a man to stock more. Whether such a man will have to repay the IPs 3d, 1 don’ t know; but it must be remembered that, if the price had gone down by so much, instead of going up, lie would have lost his 19s 3d. It works both ways. I hold no brief for the master bakers, but I have come to the conclusion that, considering all the extraordinary charges that they have to meet, the bakers to-day are not making as much profit as they were in the days when the 21b. loaf was sold for 2Jd. I am confident of that. Whilst the price here is Is Id, we must not forget that the price in New York, where the wheat is grown, practically, is ls .4d. In Southport, it is Is 2d, and all last summer it was a penny more than in the Isle of Man. In Liverpool it is Is Id. in the matter of delivery, I suppose the bakers will continue to do as they have done in the past. The reason is that they have such a wide area of customers over the whole place, and if they discontinued delivery, they would lose a certain amount of custom. Taking all things into consideration, I think the price of Is Id is as reasonable as could be expected.

ivJr Clueas: The price suggested by the bakers was Is 3d.

Mr Norris: Yes, his Excellency informed as that the master bakers had suggested that the reasonable price would be Is 3d. His Excellency’s hands are perfectly free. He does not aotuafly agree to Is Id, and if any cause can be shown why the price should be Is, he is willing to fix it at Is, and is free to do so.

Mr G ill: May I ask the deputation ifhis Excellency was able to tell them what profit per sack the bakers are making? How do they arrive at this Is Id ? I think we should have a! return of the number of loaves per sack.

Mr J. D. Qualtr u gli: It is a great pity we had not his Excellency here.- ( Laughter.)

Mr N rris: The proper thing for Mir House to do i s ---------.

Mr R . B. Moore: To go back to Tyn wald ?•—(Laughter.)

Mr Norris: What further information

The Price of Bread. Deputation Appointed to Interview the Governor.

HOUSE OF KEYS, APRIL IS, 1920. 487

could we have had, than what we have got to-day? If his Excellency is going to Tynwald with a scheme, well and good ; we will go back to Tynwald, if we can get anything out of it. If we can get anything hy stopping out, we will stop out. I suggest that the House should appoint a deputation and put my colleague on it, and he will be able to put the Governor through to his heart’s content, and give the information to the House. I am going to move that a deputation he appointed 'to confer with his Excellency on the price of bread, and consider the question in all its bearings, and report to the House at the next sitting as to whether the price of Is Id is reasonable under the circumstances. If the operatives don’ t get their advance, or the increased cost is not sufficient to justify this extra penny, then it is open for the Governor to reduce the price, if it is only by a halfpenny per loaf, and I am sure his Excellency is only too anxious, and the House is only too anxious, to do anything reasonable that will reduce the price of bread, and to see that the master bakers, and the operatives, too, don’t get more than their fair and reasonable share out of the increased price charged to the public.

Mr Callister: I seciond that m otion ;but may I ask the horn, member for North Douglas, Mr Cain, if 14s was a reasonable rise for the operatives? Does he tihink it is too much, or too little? How does the present scale of wages compare with that paid to other workmen, in the Island?

Mr R. C. Cain: There are ether tradesmen in the town getting more than the operative bakers will get if this increase is granted.

Mr Callister : What is the present wage ?Mr Alfred Teare: More than that of

the agricultural labourer, anyway.— (Laughter.)

Mr Callister: I should think so, andmore than that o f a good many others. It seems a wonderful rise, 14s per week.

Mr R C. Cain: Not so much as the railway men are asking for. They have a^ked for an extra £1 per week.

Mr Callister. There is a di tlierence between asking and getting. It seems rather a cooked affair, as if it were a division of the profits.

Mr R, C. Cain: Nothing of the kind. So far as I understand, these increased wages will do nothing more than compare

with the wages paid in other trades in Douglas.

Mr Daigleish : Will the hon. member tell us what is the wage to be paid?

Mr R. C. Cain: I understand it willbe 70s. I have no object in withholdingany information I have from any hon. member. There are different grades.

Mr A. Qualtrcugh: I may point out that the harbour master in Port Erin is getting 30s, There is something wrong as between the bakers and the harbour master.

I Mi- Dalgleish: He gets that for lighting a lamp in the evening, as the hon. member well knows. Does he want £3 10s, too?

The motion was put, and carried, several members voting “ No.”

Mr Corrin: Would I be in order inmoving a further resolution?

The .Speaker: Is it in the nature of an amendment ?

Mr Cor rin : It is an addition, as follows : “ That, in the opinion of this House, the flour subsidy should be so increased as to enable the people of the Isle of Man to purchase the 41b. loaf for not more than iOd.”

The Speaker: Would not that resolution come on when the Committee reports? That will deal with the position, and it will be open to any member then to move what steps he thinks ought to be taken.

Mr Corrin : My point of view is that, if this resolution is passed now, it might assist the Governor.

The Speaker.: Is the hon. member asking the House to make up its mind before it receives the report of the Committee ?

Mr Corrin: My opinion is, that it isimpossible to reduce the price of bread without a further subsidy.

The Speaker: That will all be gone into by the Committee The appointment of a deputation is broad enough to cover that.

Mr A. H. Teare: I think the hon. member really intended to move this as an amendment, but failed to catch the Speaker’s eye. He is anxious to get it in now, and I don’ t know whether the House will extend its Clemenpy to him.

The Speaker: I suggest that the hon, member does not lose anything by not proceeding with his resolution now. H e is merely deferring it until the deputation have reported.

Mr Corrin: It is a very important

The Price of Bread.—Deputation Appointed to Interview the Governor.

488 HOUSE OF KEYS,

matter, and might lead to very serious trouble, and it should lie dealt, with as soon as possible.

The Speaker: I think the lion, member can trust the Committee.

Mr J. D. Qualtrough: May I suggest that it might be of some interest to the publio to know what the attitude of the House of Keys is on this question. There is a certain amount of talk being indulged in to the eifect that the subsidy ought to be increased. Perhaps, if it was known that the House was, or wf.s not, in favour of an increase of subsidy, it might have some influence on the present situation, which I believe is rather acute.

The Speaker: Are not you asking members to vote on a very important matter without having had the report?

Mr J. D. Qualtrough: By the time the deputation has reported, decisions may be taken elsewhere which will seriously affect the situation.

Mr R . B. M oore: On the other hand, it. is obvious that the House will not express an opinion, unless it knows the facts. Suppose we have to pay £30,000 lor a subsidy in respect of the visitors who come over?I am not arguing the matter one way or another, but, surely, these are facts which we want to know before we make up our minds. The whole question of subsidy is one for Tynwald.

Mr Norris: I don’ t know that it shouldbe. We can pass resolutions here.

M r Richard Cain: I don’ t think it would be the wish of the House to increase the subsidy by £50,000; but I think that, if a scheme could be brought forward to give the cheaper loaf to the poorer people----------.

The Speaker: I think the discussion is getting very irregular. The House has decided to appoint a committee. What shall be the number ?- Mr Norris: I suggest five.

Agreed.Nominations were taken, and Messrs R.

B. Moore, J. D. Clucas, A. H. Teare, R.C. Cain, Corrin, Alfred Teare, and Norris, were proposed. Messrs R . B. Moore and J. D. Clucas asked to be excused, and on a ballot these gentlemen were not elected. The deputation was constituted by the appointment of Messrs Norris, R. C. Cain,A H. Teare, Corrin, and Alfred Teare.

The Speaker requested Messrs Norris and Cain to. ask the Governor at wfhat time

Education Debate

APRIL 13, 1920.

on the following day he could receive the deputation.

Mr J. D. Qualtrough: Before the hon. members go to see the Governor, would it be in order to suggest that this interview should be open to the public, or that the Press should be present?

Mr A. H. Teare: I think it is extremely undesirable. The Governor might have something to say on that matter.

Mr Cluoas: The deputation can keep it in their minds.

Messrs Cain and Norris then, withdrew, and the subject dropped.

Later, it was announced that his Excellency would receive the deputation at 11 o ’clock on the following morning.

EDUCATION DEBATE CONTINUED.Mr R . 13. M oore: The idea of clause 25 is

that in a.ny schemes prepared by the Central Authority, there should be fair consideration of the local interests and the local views, and that there should be an inquiry, if need be, and due publicity should be given, and that the existing supply shall be fairly taken into account. There is also a. sub-section that no child shall be debarred, by inability to1 pay fees, from receiving any form of education for which it is capable. I think that is a sound principle, and 1 beg to move that the clause stand part of the Bill.

Mr Alfred Teare seconded.Mr Richard Cain : It is felt that power

should be allowed to give grants for maintenance. I jtust throw out that suggestion to the promoters of the Bill.

Mr R . B. M oore: That is in the Bill, later on.

Mr A. H. Teare: W e Northside members « ’ere invited by representatives of the local education authorities to do something which should, if possible, secure that provision should be made a.t the earliest possible date for the North of the Island. It was suggested that we should try to have inserted into the Act, a clause to the effect that the Central Authority should at the earliest date consider a scheme for the establishment of a. school in the town of Ramsey for the benefit of the children residing in the North. Whilst I sympathise with that idea., I am not going to ask that any such provision should be inserted in the Bill. But I wduld only ask the House to keep in mind the frequent assurances

(Continued).

H o u s e o f k e y s , a p r .it , 13, 1920/ 4S9

that have been given by the lion, member in charge of the Bill, and others, with regard to the extreme urgency for providing some scheme of secondary education in the North. With regard to the existing supply, there is a Grammar School doing good work, and it is quite reasonable to assume that that school could be made the nucleus of some provision for the North. I heartily support the clause ; at the same time I wish to register my strong conviction, as one of the representatives of the North, that we have a very, very strong case for the provision locally, at the earliest possible date, of some scheme o f advanced education.

Mr Callister: I heartily support theclause, hut I would like to request the promoter of the Bill, and also the Central Authority, to hear in mind that there should be some provision for the children from the various districts of the Island. I don’t see any clause in the Bill which secures that.

Mr R. B. M oore: Oh, yes, there is— clause 32.

Mr Callister: If there is, I am quitesatisfied with the clause. Hut unless some such provision is made, the Council cannot “ take steps for the progressive development and comprehensive organisation of education in the Island,” as clau-e 32 says it is their duty to do. We have had an experience in the past which I hope will never occur again. As for having a school in the North of the Island, we in the AVest claim, too, that our children will not have that chance of development in the matter of education which they ougiiu to have unless a. school is provided in the West. It is easier to bring a teacher, or two or thz'ee, to perhaps 200 scholars than to bring that number of scholars to the teachers. From the very beginning I have wholeheartedly supported One Authority, because I tliink that that is the only way in which we shall do radical justice to all parties concerned.

The clause was carried.Clause 26 empowers the Council of Edu

cation to give approval to schemes submitted by the Central Authority. Any scheme thus approved shall be laid before Tynwald, and if Tynwald by resolution disapproves of such scheme, it shall be referred back to the Council for reconsideration in conjunction with the Central Authority. If the Council are unable to agree with the scheme, they shall offer to hold a conference with the Central Authority, and

if finally they disapprove of it, they shall lay before Tynwald a report stating their reasons for disapproval.

Mr R. B. Moore : I should like to insert an amendment more clearly defining the expression “ secondary school” in this clause. There is a definition in the interpretations clause, as follows :—

“Secondary school” means a day or evening school or class for education other than elementary, and includes a day or evening school or class for instruction in science and art.

But I now want to insert a different definition:— ̂For the purposes of this section, the term

“secondary school” shall mean a school to be provided and maintained in accordance with the regulations of the Board of Education for the time being in force relating to secondary rchools.

It is obvious that you would not want all this procedure of approval or inquiry for the sake of any little evening class. The House will see that this clause covers both approval and disapproval of schemes by the Council of Education. When a scheme submitted by the Central Authority is approved, it then comes into operation only if Tynwald does not refer it back or disapprove of it. The object of it is that any scheme in connection with the secondary schools of the Island shall really come before Tynwald, so that the districts outside Douglas may have the right to see that their case has been fairly considered. Subsection 3 provides that if the Council disapprove of the scheme, they must also notify Tynwald. So, whether wTe approve or disapprove, it comes before Tyiwald, and that gives the outside districts the opportunity of seeing that their case is fairly ventilated, and full justice done to them.

Mr Norris: I second that, but there is one point^I would like to be clear about— the word “ disapprove.” “ Disapproved by Tynwald.” Of course Tynwald is a peculiar body, and the voting there is very different from the system which obtains in the House of Commons or the House of Lords. I suggest that, instead o f the word “ dis- r.pprove,” we should insert “ do not approve.” A resolution may be put that we disapprove, and it may be carried in the Keys and lost in the Council. Under the Profiteering Act resolution which came before Tynwald recently, the word “ disapprove” would not have been siufficient. If the motion to disapprove is not carried in both branches, it falls.

Education Debate (Continued).

49Û HOUSE OF KEYS,

Mr J. D. Qualtrougli: What the hon.member wants is that unless Tynwald actually approves by resolution, the scheme shall be referred back. In that case, of course, one branch by disapproving could cause the scheme to be referred back. That is rather a dangerous thing to attempt. Suppose a scheme is submitted to Tynwald, and a motion is made that the scheme be now approved, and that motion is carried in the Keys and lost in the Council, then the motion drops. I take it that under those circumstances the scheme will stand.

Mr Clucas: But the intention of the promoters is that Tynwald must approve.

Mr Norris : That is, both branches must approve.

Mr It. B. Moore : I think we must be quite clear as to what the House desires. The Central Authority, who are really the responsible authority, propound a scheme. When they get the approval of the Council of Education, they get the approval of what may lie supposed to be that portion of Tynwald to whom is specially delegated the administration of education. This next provision, of coming to Tynwald, is put in so as to secure a sort of ventilation of the matter in Tynwald.

Mr Clucas : Giving Tynwald a veto.M r I ! . B. M oore: Yes. If tlie two

branches disagree, then I think the scheme ought to stand, because the two responsible authorities have agreed to it. But if a dissentient district was able to convince Tynwald that tlie scheme was not right, and to effect the carrying in Tynwald of a resolution of disapproval, then the scheme would go down. But it ought not to go down because the two branches disagree. The Htiuse will decide whether they want the scheme to come into operation unless the Court in both branches disapproves, or whether they want it not to come into operation unless both branches approve.

M r Norris: May I point out that five members in the Upper House can outvote the rest of the Court. The House of Keys might be unanimously against the scheme submitted, and yet, if five members out of 34 vote for it, the scheme would go tlurciugh.

M r K erm ode: In Tynwald we have only 24 representatives elected by the people, whereas on the Central Authority you will have 25. Leave the clause as it stands, and it will be right.

Mr Norris: What is the good of submitting the scheme to Tynwald for approval if five members are to outvote the rest?

APRIL 13, 1920.

On a division there voted:— For Mr Norris’s amendment : Messrs Callister,Curpliey, R. S. Corlett, J. D. Clucas, T. S. Corlett, Kermeen, Gill, Bridson, and Norris —9. Against: Messrs Dalgleish, Kermode, Daniel J. Teare, Corrin, A. Qualtrougli, W. Moore, Shimmin, A. H. Teare, R . C. Cain, R . B. Moore, Alfred J. Teare, Goldie- Taubman, Richard Cain, and the Speaker— 14.

The amendment was lost.Tlie clause was carried.Clause 27 defines the powers of the

Central Authority with respect to the provision of higher education.

Mr R . B. Moore : In this clause we have followed the lines of the 1905 Act. We do not confine ourselves to the regulations of the Board of Education in England, or that in Scotland ; we enable the new Council of Education in the Isle of Man, if they like, to adopt the suggestion of the lion, member for Rushen, Mr Qualtrougli, and go to Germany— they might do worse, in matters of education— and to make regulations for themselves. Sub-section 2 requires a little explanation. In England, under the Fisher Act, continuation schools and classes are now in operation. Two years after the coming into operation of the Act, continuation schools and classes became compulsory. We have suggested tlie compulsory operation of this clause after three years. It is really necessary to suspend the operation in that way, beca.use tlie changes that this Act will bring about require time to take effect, before we open up another big branch of ed'ucational work. At the end of three years, we shall, I hope, have settled down, and got into our stride, and it will then be time to consider whether we shall make attendance at such schools or classes compulsory. Tlie suggestion is that the Council of Education shall then have power to make this provision compulsory, unless Tynwald, when the matter*is laid before it, disapprove. That gives a veto to Tynwald. That is consistent with what the House has already decided, and that is tlie power which I think Tynwald should have. When authority is definitely delegated to some public board, Tynwald should not be able to “ butt in” too frequently. They only have tlie power of disapproval, and I think we must take it that Tynwald as a whole will act reasonably, and will only exercise its authority when a good case has been made out. It may be that the House will decide that continuation classes shall come into opera

Education Debate (Continued).

HOUSE OF KEYS, APRIL 13, 192Ó. 491

tion immediately the three years have expired, without further reference to Tynwald. But if not, then, when the Council think that sufficient teachers for this pulpóse can be obtained, and feel that they have got into working order sufficiently to justify a new departure, they will submit their decision to Tynwald, and if Tynwald does not disapprove, then attendance will be compulsory.

Mr J. D. Qualtrougli seconded.Mr Norris: I would like to know if parar

graph (e) in sub-section 1 of tlii.s clause covers the case of blind children. It may be that the existing law is sufficient, but we are now dealing with young persons, and I have understood that the existing law does not deal with young persons. 1 move the insertion of words providing for the education and industrial training of blind children or young persons. I don’ t think I need labour the question; it is extremely desirable that what little we can do for the blind should be done.

Mr J. D. Qualtrougli : Clause 31 deals with children who are physically or mentally defective, and I should think that “ physical defects” would include blindness. I may point out that there is at present before the House of Commons a Bill dealing with the whole question of aid to the blind. I am not sure whether it refers to children, but I think it does. The treatment of blind children may or may not be most suitably dealt with by the education authorities, but I believe that as a matter of fact there are very few, if any, blind children in the Isle of Man. I do not know whether there is a single blind child in the Island to-day. So that we are making provision for a very, very small proportion of the community.

Mr Alfred Teare: I think sub-section (e) covei'S the lot. I t provides for all children, I take it, being properly looked after.' The clause was carried.

Clause 29 gives the Central Authority power to promote social and physical training.

Mr R. B. M oore: This is a development in the right direction. Sub-section (d), relating to the provision of libraries, is not in the English Act. I t was inserted into this Bill largely through the influence of the Archdeacon, as a member of the old Council, as a means of providing libraries in the country districts. I was going to ask the hon. member for Glanfaba, Mr Callister, to second it— (laughter)— but he

is not here at the moment. It means no reflection on the country districts— of course we have to say that every time now. It is an attempt to provide a library where none exists, and to give the adult people the benefit of it. Where it is provided for the benefit of the whole town or district, the Bill authorises a halfpenny rate to be levied for the purpose. I think it is an admirable scheme; I wish the halfpenny had been a penny, the same as in the towns, but after it has been in existence, no doubt we shall have the representatives of the districts who benefit coming and asking that the rate shall be increased.

Mr Corrin seconded, and the clause was carried.

ASSISTANCE IN SECURING EMPLOYMENT.

The Speaker: Perhaps it will be convenient now to take the amendment circulated in the name of the hon. member for North Douglas, Mr Cain.

Mr R. C. Cain m oved:—The Central Authority shall, ill addition to

its powers in connection with the provision of education other in an elementary, have powei t j make arrangements, subject to the approval of the Conniil of Education, for assisting hoys and. girls who attend, or have attended, any X ublic elementary or seoindary soh>ol in this Is'and to enter into apprenticeship or training in suitable employment, whether in the Isle of Man or elsewhere, and, for such purpose, to collect and communicate information, and to advise and make arrangements for such apprenticeship and training.

The Central Authority may, subject to the approval of the Council, provide for the payment of such sums as they may consider advisable to assist such boys and girls while serving their apprenticeship or undergoing their training, and may make arrangements for obtaining and securing the repayment of any sums so expended by such boys and girls, or their parents or guardians.

He said : This is really an addition to the clause which has just been passed. The House may think this is a very bold and revolutionary step to take. Perhaps it would have been so some years ago-, but I think we look at things in a different light now. The House has recently made provision for old age, we are about to consider a measure of health insurance which will affect people in middle life, and this Bill now before us is framed in the interests of the children. But I think there is no more pressing need than that of our young people who are just leaving school. It is at this point that our system breaks down, or

Education Bill.— Assistance in Securing Employment.

•492 HOUSE ÒF KEYS, APR IL 13, Ì92Ò.

at least partially breaks down. Whether the young people have passed through the secondary school, the supplementary class, or the elementary school, they are now ready , and eager to turn to account their natural gifts, and at this critical juncture we have no provision made for them. Perhaps, because we are a, small and isolated community, the problem has become more acute in the Island than elsewhere, and it has become more acute still since the application to the Island of the industrial trades rules. What I mean is th is : There are so many men working in a particular shop, and only so many apprentices are allowed in proportion to so many workmen. I am not arguing whether that is a wise rule or not. I am only saying that it means fewer openings for boys than there otherwise might be. The position of the Manx parent with regard to his child at the age of leaving school is much more perplexing than on the mainland. Take Liverpool, which is the nearest centre to ns. There are any amount of trades—engineering, electricity, shipbuilding, and the manufacture of every known article— where, if one place for which a boy applies is filled up, there are numbers equally ready to receive him. His future is assured. I f a boy wishes to enter the mercantile marine, there are numbers of shipping companies that make special provision for such cases, and give special training. But a boy in the Isle of Man does not find such openings ready for him. In the engineering line— and I believe that it is admitted that the boys who are turned out from the Isle of Man as engineers are as capable, if not more so, as those turned out anywhere else—for one boy that is taken on, there are ten or twelve ready and waiting. Now, the first step linden' this proposal would be that the Government should get information from these firms I have spoken of-—I could mention a good many, but it is not necessary. Of course that would cost something. But surely, a scheme could be devised whereby, in the first years of the apprenticeship, or training, assistance should be given by the Government, and arrangements made to have the money repaid, either by the boy when he is out of his time, or partly so, or by the parent. In the Colonies, or at least in one colony that I know of, the Government gives such assistance to parents who reside in remote parts of the colony, and I understand, though I am not quite' sure, that arrangements are made whereby the parents refund the money later. The

Education Bill.—

problem is perhaps more acute through the Island being a seasonal place. I believe that between 400 and 500 boys and girls leave the schools of Douglas every year, and large numbers will leave the schools in other parts of the Island, and what is there for them to do ? This is not a new question. I believe it has been introduced in Tynwald before, and it was referred to the Council of Education, and I have not heard anything of it since. What has the Government done for apprentices who left in the middle of their training to go- to the war? The provision made in such cases is a very excellent thing, and I am now asking that, whereas the Government then gave assistance at the end of the apprenticeship, it should now give assistance at the beginning of the apprenticeship. I remember having a conversation with one of the then members for South Douglas, the late Ca.pt. Moughtin, and remarking that at the end of every season— this was more noticeable before the war than it is now—you would see boys of from 15 to 18 with nothing to do. They were clever boys, some of them— much too clever to be allowed to drift into the ranks of the unskilled, and perhaps eventually to swell the numbers of unemployable. I have put the matter very crudely before the House, I know; but J. think I have conveyed what is in my mind, and I feel sure it will find favour with at least a section of the House.

M r A. Qualtrough seconded.M r Richard Cain : I w'ould like to em

phasise what the lion, member lias said with regard to the difficulty of getting boys into situations. W hat lie has said with regard to the engineering trade is absolutely true. There was a Manx engineer, Robert Quayle, who had the good fortune to go to America, instead of staying on the Island, and he has just set up an electrical engineering department of a laa'ge American railway where there are 12,000 men under his care. I have interested myself at various times in trying to get boys into situations as engineers’ apprentices, and it is quite impossible to succeed, and I am sure this resolution would be a very good thi