Professorb

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Join Date: Mar 2008

Posts: 454

Good Enough is Good Enough

Here is the question of the day or for me the question of several years. If 316L is 316L, a Swiss

movement a Swiss movement, and a Sapphire crystal just that, what is the difference other than brand

name between a Swiss Made (yes I know about the content rules) "name brand" watch and a Swiss

Made Invicta? Some will say the "quality" of the build and that is certainly a good retort but some (not

all) of my Invictas are just as high quality (as I look at my Ocean Quest on my wrist). I get a better

warranty with my Invictas and depending upon the model a state of the art quartz watch or an

automatic with a respected movement like the 7750, 2824, or the new breed coming from Selita. If the

materials are equal and the movements are equal and finally the build quality on many of the models is

equal then to me it boils down to the panache of the brand. Now, paying for panache or status is fine

and I have some traditional Swiss brands especially my beloved Hamilton collection. My point is that

other than the name on the dial, a well built watch should be evaluated and appreciated for the design,

the components, and the build quality and not the name on the dial or the prejudice of the jeweler in

the local jewelery store that dismisses Invicta as a "cheap TV brand". That type of thinking flies in the

face of the facts and the quality of design, components and build that Invicta is capable of bring to us

Geeks.

ProfessorB

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Good Enough is Good

Enough General Invicta Watch Discussions Hotspur 17 254

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06:55

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FS: Swiss Legend Ceramic

Commander in Black For Sale by Owner Professorb 3 552

02-

07-

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07:51

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The Professor's Let's Cheer

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#2

Today, 07:08 AM

mikepbrowning

Super Geek

Join Date: Mar 2010

Location: Lebanon Indiana

Posts: 1,503

Real Name: Mike Browning

I agree. Xenophobia(fear of the unknown)is a big issue with a lot of people. People tend to put down or

disassociate with things at which we are not familiar. Why?, because it is easier than taking the time to

learn and be wrong. Just my opinion on the topic, and life in general. Admit you are wrong and you will

be right much sooner.

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#3

Today, 07:13 AM

reliefcp

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Join Date: May 2009

Location: Everett Wa.

Posts: 8,956

Real Name: C.J.

QC Sapphire Superluminova and materials used to start.Have you ever had the hands fall off of any of

your Hammys? When a watchmaker opens up the caseback and it says Made in China maybe thats what

they are basing it on. Invictas pluses are design wrist presence and price after it drops from its initial

offering.

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#4

Today, 07:13 AM

da40kay

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Join Date: Jun 2009

Location: in the woods

Posts: 705

Real Name: David

uuuummmmm what like ya

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#5

Today, 07:19 AM

Wotan

Senior Geek

Join Date: Apr 2011

Location: Mulvane, KS (12 miles south of Wichita)

Posts: 222

Real Name: Paul

Truer words were never spoken; there will always be a "snob factor" be it watches, cars, guns or even

one's choice of a mate. It's been that way since we came down from the trees and it'll be that way till

we go back to them (which from the way the world's going may be sooner rather than later.)

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#6

Today, 07:26 AM

El Don Juan

Super Geek

Join Date: Aug 2008

Location: Woonsocket RI

Posts: 1,369

Real Name: Charlie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Professorb

Here is the question of the day or for me the question of several years. If 316L is 316L, a Swiss

movement a Swiss movement, and a Sapphire crystal just that, what is the difference other than brand

name between a Swiss Made (yes I know about the content rules) "name brand" watch and a Swiss

Made Invicta? Some will say the "quality" of the build and that is certainly a good retort but some (not

all) of my Invictas are just as high quality (as I look at my Ocean Quest on my wrist). I get a better

warranty with my Invictas and depending upon the model a state of the art quartz watch or an

automatic with a respected movement like the 7750, 2824, or the new breed coming from Selita. If the

materials are equal and the movements are equal and finally the build quality on many of the models is

equal then to me it boils down to the panache of the brand. Now, paying for panache or status is fine

and I have some traditional Swiss brands especially my beloved Hamilton collection. My point is that

other than the name on the dial, a well built watch should be evaluated and appreciated for the design,

the components, and the build quality and not the name on the dial or the prejudice of the jeweler in

the local jewelery store that dismisses Invicta as a "cheap TV brand". That type of thinking flies in the

face of the facts and the quality of design, components and build that Invicta is capable of bring to us

Geeks.

ProfessorB

I completely agree with you ProfessorB, you hit the nail right in it`s ugly head!!!

Charlie

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#7

Today, 11:55 AM

Hotspur

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Join Date: Feb 2010

Location: Here - now

Posts: 2,490

Real Name: William (Bill)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Professorb

Here is the question of the day or for me the question of several years. If 316L is 316L, a Swiss

movement a Swiss movement, and a Sapphire crystal just that, what is the difference other than brand

name between a Swiss Made (yes I know about the content rules) "name brand" watch and a Swiss

Made Invicta? Some will say the "quality" of the build and that is certainly a good retort but some (not

all) of my Invictas are just as high quality (as I look at my Ocean Quest on my wrist). I get a better

warranty with my Invictas and depending upon the model a state of the art quartz watch or an

automatic with a respected movement like the 7750, 2824, or the new breed coming from Selita. If the

materials are equal and the movements are equal and finally the build quality on many of the models is

equal then to me it boils down to the panache of the brand. Now, paying for panache or status is fine

and I have some traditional Swiss brands especially my beloved Hamilton collection. My point is that

other than the name on the dial, a well built watch should be evaluated and appreciated for the design,

the components, and the build quality and not the name on the dial or the prejudice of the jeweler in

the local jewelery store that dismisses Invicta as a "cheap TV brand". That type of thinking flies in the

face of the facts and the quality of design, components and build that Invicta is capable of bring to us

Geeks.

ProfessorB

I guess it would depend on which "traditional" Swiss brand to which you wish to compare. If, as you say,

"all things are equal", then there is no difference.

Unfortunately, all things aren't necessarily equal. There is a great deal more to compare than whether

two watches use the same grade of steel, same movement and a sapphire crystal. You've made an

assumption that the cases made from that steel are of the same quality and from the same place. If they

are, no difference - If one, however is made in China and the other made in Switzerland, there is certainly

a difference in cost if not in quality of the work. If one case is selected from a catalog of ready made

cases and another is designed from scratch and machined specifically for a given model, then there is

another costly difference. How about how well it is put together? Quality control and inspections? The

"build quality" in other words. Do the hands fall off? Are the caseback screws loose? Does the second

hand line up with the indices? Did the crown fall out when you pulled it? Did screws fall out of the

bracelet? Is it moldy? How about the actual quality of the machining and finishing of the parts, both

internal and external? Smooth, polished surfaces throughout? High quality lume? You've also assumed

that a particular "Swiss Made" movement is the same for all who use it. Hardly - some watch companies

just case it as it comes from whichever factory made it and others practically rebuild it to ensure

optimum performance, a far more expensive process. You may or may not be aware that there are in fact

several grades of sapphire crystal as well, another potential expense for those who choose a higher

grade. If you are indeed aware of the regulations regarding the use of "Swiss Made" on watch dials, then

you may have another part of the answer. How much actual content of the watches being compared is

Swiss, or even European as opposed to Chinese? More expense.

You say that some of your Invictas are "just as high quality" as some "traditional brands". How do you

know that? Also, what "traditional" watch brand are you comparing them to? How did you compare

them in order to "know"? Are we talking Patek? Rolex? Omega? TAG Heuer? Tissot? Longines? Movado?

I don't know that you get a "better" warranty with Invicta, but you do get a longer one. At least for the

movement. Of course, if that is the measure of quality, then Croton is a "better" watch than Invicta - they

offer a lifetime warranty. Again, if length of warranty is a measure of qualty, that would mean that Invicta

is a "better" watch than my Patek, Vacheron, Jaeger LeCoultre, Audemars Piguet, Hublot, Girard

Perregaux, Omega or any of my Rolexes that all came with only a one year warranty. I've never needed to

make a warranty claim with any of them - just lucky, I guess.

As far as the "panache" of a given Swiss brand, I think you are really referring to "cachet". In other words,

whether or not a particular brand is considered to be desirable, exclusive and worth its price.

Fortunately, true cachet is not something that can be bought, created with an advertising campaign or

simply made up - it must be earned. It is typically developed over the course of many years and has to do

with a brand's reputation, integrity, consistent high quality over the course of time and technological

innovation. These are the attributes that contribute to a brand's exclusivity, cachet and ultimately, it's

price. Watches that have not earned that reputation will certainly sell for less.

So, if you won't or can't pay the going rate for a particular watch for whatever reason, then you choose

something else that suits you.

Finally, I agree with you, Professorb, watches should be appreciated for the design, the components and

the build quality - not the name on the dial - especially now that you've seen how different two watches

made of 316L steel, with a particular movement and a sapphire crystal can be. Unfortunately all "Swiss

Made" watches aren't equal and making assumptions about a brand's quality, in comparison with

another's, flies in the face of simple logic. If only all things were equal....

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Last edited by Hotspur; Today at 12:13 PM. Reason: capitalized the "p" in "Professorb"

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#8

Today, 12:10 PM

pokerhustler

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Join Date: Mar 2010

Location: Kentucky(USA)

Posts: 1,400

The case has been made that we're paying for the name a lot of times.

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#9

Today, 12:34 PM

OMaxgeek

Senior Geek

Join Date: Mar 2010

Location: Bedford, Ohio

Posts: 349

Real Name: Mark

A little leavity

I know this is a hot topic for a lot of us. Swiss Made...Swiss Parts...Swiss movements, Chinese made Swiss

movements, 1 yr warranty, 5 yr warranty, LIFETIME warranty. This brand, that brand. Well my mind

works in a weird way sometimes and reading this thread, all I could think about was the scene in Tommy

Boy when He is trying to sell his brake pads and the question about the guarantee comes up. Here is the

excerp from it. No disrespect meant to anyones opinins on this subject...this just made me laugh.

Mark zzz

Tommy: Let's think about this for a sec, Ted. Why would somebody put a guarantee on a box? Hmmm,

very interesting.

Ted Nelson, Customer: Go on, I'm listening.

Tommy: Here's the way I see it, Ted. Guy puts a fancy guarantee on a box 'cause he wants you to feel all

warm and toasty inside.

Ted Nelson, Customer: Yeah, makes a man feel good.

Tommy: 'Course it does. Why shouldn't it? Ya figure you put that little box under your pillow at night, the

Guarantee Fairy might come by and leave a quarter, am I right, Ted?

[chuckles until he sees that Ted is not laughing]

Ted Nelson, Customer: [impatiently] What's your point?

Tommy: The point is, how do you know the fairy isn't a crazy glue sniffer? "Building model airplanes" says

the little fairy; well, we're not buying it. He sneaks into your house once, that's all it takes. The next thing

you know, there's money missing off the dresser, and your daughter's knocked up. I seen it a hundred

times.

Ted Nelson, Customer: But why do they put a guarantee on the box?

Tommy: Because they know all they sold ya was a guaranteed piece of poop. That's all it is, isn't it? Hey, if

you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will. I got spare time. But for now, for

your customer's sake, for your daughter's sake, ya might wanna think about buying a quality product

from me.

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#10

Today, 01:06 PM

BigBully

True WatchGeek

Join Date: Aug 2009

Location: Long Island, NY

Posts: 5,291

to the original poster.... let me rephrase your question using different products....

Chevy, GMC, Cadillac. all use the same drive train, same engines, same suspension parts, brakes etc... but

we pay more for Cadillac dont we?

Alot of cars are built on the same Chrysler, or GM frame. Even VW uses the same frame as some high end

cars. Mercedes, Jaguar, etc... so what makes the high end cars more $ or more prestigious... It's us and

the clout we give them....

Hey your Hyundai Elantra gets you from A to B just as effective as your neighbors Mercedes AMG. One

costs $13,000 and the other $130,000. which one do you drive? whatever your wallet can afford.

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#11

Today, 01:14 PM

Professorb

Senior Geek

Join Date: Mar 2008

Posts: 454

Dear Hotspur,

As an old debate coach I love a good argument and you made a few fair and some leap of faith comments

as did I in my original post. In terms of cases, I understand some are bought out of a catalog and yet

others are custom made. NFW is a case in point (Pun intended) as well as Invicta who custom make some

but not all of their cases. Those that are custom made can be and in some instances are of a quality that

rivals more well known brands. It is also a fact than many well known brands have their cases made in

the orient as well to save costs. My point is that a well made case is a well made case irrespective of

country of origin and that their may be little difference between a well made Swiss manufacturer of cases

and a top tier manufacturer in the orient. Turning to crystals, I do know that their are different grades

and as with cases, some are custom made to a specific shape and quality of finish and others are bought

from a catalog. Once again, if the case is of equal quality and the crystal is of equal quality (and they can

be as you know) then we turn to the last three issues of the discussion. Lets start with movements and

you definitely have a fair point in that most but not all of the so called TV brands simply buy a movement

and slap it into the watch whereas top tier brands typically hand assemble each movement (in most but

not all cases either by the way) and adjust them at or near chrono specs of running accuracy. There are

exceptions in less expensive watches as well with Android being the most viable on this forum. The

reassemble each movement and set it at their factory.This leaves us quality control and in this instance,

the high end brands win hands down. While I have not had major problems, most of us have had quality

issues with Invicta due to poor quality control. IMHO this is the major trade off between some brands like

Invicta and the top tier brands from both Switzerland and Japan by the way. My original point was "all

things being relatively equal" and the if the case is first rate, and the crystal is first rate and the

movement is first rate in line with quality control and assembly being done in line with "Swiss Made" the

major differentiator ends up being quality control and the pride of owning a true high end time piece

that has earned a great reputation over the years and that is great but the "haters" of Invicta and some

other brands totally discount these watches as junk or near junk and that is simply not true. Is an Invicta

a Breitling or Omega? Certainly not and for the reasons you state but in terms of value (brand equity

aside) can a given model of Invicta (not all of course) be near the same level of materials and

craftsmanship? Yes they can and in the process they lead in design and value. My final point is one that

some will take offense at but as a teacher, I simply cannot afford a $5k and above time piece but I do

want to have watches in my collection that can be of a quality that is near the high end brands you

espouse. Selective Invictas and Androids with my Hammys on the top end of my collection suit me just

fine but if somebody wants to think of them as junk or orders of magnitude inferior to some of the top

tier brands, the facts do not bear this out.

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#12

Today, 01:37 PM

socrates

Master WatchGeek

Join Date: Feb 2010

Location: Live in Hawaii on the island of Oahu

Posts: 3,805

Real Name: Paul

Quote:

Originally Posted by reliefcp

QC Sapphire Superluminova and materials used to start.Have you ever had the hands fall off of any of

your Hammys? When a watchmaker opens up the caseback and it says Made in China maybe thats

what they are basing it on. Invictas pluses are design wrist presence and price after it drops from its

initial offering.

I have had three Invictas that had their day hands fall off. Not just one but three and by the way a

fourth that the day hand is a click off. All one need do is read the posts here to see what watches are

more dependable and which have better or worse QC. I am not going to fall into this pit. Do a study of

all the watches discussed here and chart all of the issues good or bad. The heck with debates do a

study. I am not Invicta bashing, just purchased one last week but these discussions are getting old. Do

a study based on posts here then publish the results and what it says is what it says.

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#13

Today, 01:46 PM

socrates

Master WatchGeek

Join Date: Feb 2010

Location: Live in Hawaii on the island of Oahu

Posts: 3,805

Real Name: Paul

Quote:

Originally Posted by reliefcp

QC Sapphire Superluminova and materials used to start.Have you ever had the hands fall off of any of

your Hammys? When a watchmaker opens up the caseback and it says Made in China maybe thats

what they are basing it on. Invictas pluses are design wrist presence and price after it drops from its

initial offering.

I have a simple question. Can a watch be marked "Swiss Made" with a Chinese movement? Is all that is

needed is to be assembled in Switzerland? Same old question.

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#14

Today, 01:56 PM

Leed24

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Join Date: Sep 2009

Location: St. Louis, MO.

Posts: 2,400

Real Name: Lee

We had this debate earlier in the year about Rolex. Some defending their belief strongly that a Rolex

Speedway was worth roughly $10,000 more than the Invicta Speedway. I disagreed.

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#15

Today, 02:11 PM

EAS

Veteran Geek

Join Date: Oct 2009

Posts: 863

Real Name: Mark

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotspur

I guess it would depend on which "traditional" Swiss brand to which you wish to compare. If, as you say,

"all things are equal", then there is no difference.

Unfortunately, all things aren't necessarily equal. There is a great deal more to compare than whether

two watches use the same grade of steel, same movement and a sapphire crystal. You've made an

assumption that the cases made from that steel are of the same quality and from the same place. If

they are, no difference - If one, however is made in China and the other made in Switzerland, there is

certainly a difference in cost if not in quality of the work. If one case is selected from a catalog of ready

made cases and another is designed from scratch and machined specifically for a given model, then

there is another costly difference. How about how well it is put together? Quality control and

inspections? The "build quality" in other words. Do the hands fall off? Are the caseback screws loose?

Does the second hand line up with the indices? Did the crown fall out when you pulled it? Did screws fall

out of the bracelet? Is it moldy? How about the actual quality of the machining and finishing of the

parts, both internal and external? Smooth, polished surfaces throughout? High quality lume? You've

also assumed that a particular "Swiss Made" movement is the same for all who use it. Hardly - some

watch companies just case it as it comes from whichever factory made it and others practically rebuild it

to ensure optimum performance, a far more expensive process. You may or may not be aware that

there are in fact several grades of sapphire crystal as well, another potential expense for those who

choose a higher grade. If you are indeed aware of the regulations regarding the use of "Swiss Made" on

watch dials, then you may have another part of the answer. How much actual content of the watches

being compared is Swiss, or even European as opposed to Chinese? More expense.

You say that some of your Invictas are "just as high quality" as some "traditional brands". How do you

know that? Also, what "traditional" watch brand are you comparing them to? How did you compare

them in order to "know"? Are we talking Patek? Rolex? Omega? TAG Heuer? Tissot? Longines?

Movado?

I don't know that you get a "better" warranty with Invicta, but you do get a longer one. At least for the

movement. Of course, if that is the measure of quality, then Croton is a "better" watch than Invicta -

they offer a lifetime warranty. Again, if length of warranty is a measure of qualty, that would mean that

Invicta is a "better" watch than my Patek, Vacheron, Jaeger LeCoultre, Audemars Piguet, Hublot, Girard

Perregaux, Omega or any of my Rolexes that all came with only a one year warranty. I've never needed

to make a warranty claim with any of them - just lucky, I guess.

As far as the "panache" of a given Swiss brand, I think you are really referring to "cachet". In other

words, whether or not a particular brand is considered to be desirable, exclusive and worth its price.

Fortunately, true cachet is not something that can be bought, created with an advertising campaign or

simply made up - it must be earned. It is typically developed over the course of many years and has to

do with a brand's reputation, integrity, consistent high quality over the course of time and technological

innovation. These are the attributes that contribute to a brand's exclusivity, cachet and ultimately, it's

price. Watches that have not earned that reputation will certainly sell for less.

So, if you won't or can't pay the going rate for a particular watch for whatever reason, then you choose

something else that suits you.

Finally, I agree with you, Professorb, watches should be appreciated for the design, the components and

the build quality - not the name on the dial - especially now that you've seen how different two watches

made of 316L steel, with a particular movement and a sapphire crystal can be. Unfortunately all "Swiss

Made" watches aren't equal and making assumptions about a brand's quality, in comparison with

another's, flies in the face of simple logic. If only all things were equal....

I agree with Bill on most of what he states...the OP question is a loaded question...Invicta lovers will tell

you and swear that the brand is as good as a name brands....

Depends on what you are refering to as name brands...Breitling..Tag..Omega..Oris...Rolex....if so I beg to

differ...the Q/C that goes into those watches plus the sappahire crystals, superluminova and most have

been modified by the brand...you are comparing apples to oranges if you are putting Invicta in that

league. I had nine Invicta's not a lot by many here..down to 4 now..SANII,SANII,Bolt and Ocean Ghost.

I also have about 25 luxury or high end watches...I do not compare the two regardless of movements in

the watch...too many Q/C, C/S and credibility issues to put high dollar amounts in that brand anymore.

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#16

Today, 02:18 PM

sweetlou

Senior Geek

Join Date: Apr 2010

Location: MA

Posts: 109

My two cents.

I love my Ocean Ghosts both stainless and just recently purchased gold version. However I own many

vintage watches. I must say I have read here that many have had parts fall off their watches.

My vintage watches all higher brand name never once had issues. I love both styles high end and what I

call fashion. However they are not all made equal.

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#17

Today, 02:18 PM

fxdb10

Veteran Geek

Join Date: Jan 2010

Location: oklahoma

Posts: 713

Real Name: NICK

Quote:

Originally Posted by OMaxgeek

I know this is a hot topic for a lot of us. Swiss Made...Swiss Parts...Swiss movements, Chinese made

Swiss movements, 1 yr warranty, 5 yr warranty, LIFETIME warranty. This brand, that brand. Well my

mind works in a weird way sometimes and reading this thread, all I could think about was the scene in

Tommy Boy when He is trying to sell his brake pads and the question about the guarantee comes up.

Here is the excerp from it. No disrespect meant to anyones opinins on this subject...this just made me

laugh.

Mark zzz

Tommy: Let's think about this for a sec, Ted. Why would somebody put a guarantee on a box? Hmmm,

very interesting.

Ted Nelson, Customer: Go on, I'm listening.

Tommy: Here's the way I see it, Ted. Guy puts a fancy guarantee on a box 'cause he wants you to feel all

warm and toasty inside.

Ted Nelson, Customer: Yeah, makes a man feel good.

Tommy: 'Course it does. Why shouldn't it? Ya figure you put that little box under your pillow at night,

the Guarantee Fairy might come by and leave a quarter, am I right, Ted?

[chuckles until he sees that Ted is not laughing]

Ted Nelson, Customer: [impatiently] What's your point?

Tommy: The point is, how do you know the fairy isn't a crazy glue sniffer? "Building model airplanes"

says the little fairy; well, we're not buying it. He sneaks into your house once, that's all it takes. The next

thing you know, there's money missing off the dresser, and your daughter's knocked up. I seen it a

hundred times.

Ted Nelson, Customer: But why do they put a guarantee on the box?

Tommy: Because they know all they sold ya was a guaranteed piece of poop. That's all it is, isn't it? Hey,

if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will. I got spare time. But for now, for

your customer's sake, for your daughter's sake, ya might wanna think about buying a quality product

from me.

+1 I'll only add that some have rolley's and some have invicta's and that's what makes the world

great,buy what you can afford.I buy Invicta's,Android's,DB's and Stuhrling's and they make me happy!

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#18

Today, 03:09 PM

Hotspur

Super Geek

Join Date: Feb 2010

Location: Here - now

Posts: 2,490

Real Name: William (Bill)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Professorb

Dear Hotspur,

As an old debate coach I love a good argument and you made a few fair and some leap of faith

comments as did I in my original post. In terms of cases, I understand some are bought out of a catalog

and yet others are custom made. NFW is a case in point (Pun intended) as well as Invicta who custom

make some but not all of their cases. Those that are custom made can be and in some instances are of a

quality that rivals more well known brands. It is also a fact than many well known brands have their

cases made in the orient as well to save costs. My point is that a well made case is a well made case

irrespective of country of origin and that their may be little difference between a well made Swiss

manufacturer of cases and a top tier manufacturer in the orient. Turning to crystals, I do know that

their are different grades and as with cases, some are custom made to a specific shape and quality of

finish and others are bought from a catalog. Once again, if the case is of equal quality and the crystal is

of equal quality (and they can be as you know) then we turn to the last three issues of the discussion.

Lets start with movements and you definitely have a fair point in that most but not all of the so called

TV brands simply buy a movement and slap it into the watch whereas top tier brands typically hand

assemble each movement (in most but not all cases either by the way) and adjust them at or near

chrono specs of running accuracy. There are exceptions in less expensive watches as well with Android

being the most viable on this forum. The reassemble each movement and set it at their factory.This

leaves us quality control and in this instance, the high end brands win hands down. While I have not had

major problems, most of us have had quality issues with Invicta due to poor quality control. IMHO this is

the major trade off between some brands like Invicta and the top tier brands from both Switzerland and

Japan by the way. My original point was "all things being relatively equal" and the if the case is first

rate, and the crystal is first rate and the movement is first rate in line with quality control and assembly

being done in line with "Swiss Made" the major differentiator ends up being quality control and the

pride of owning a true high end time piece that has earned a great reputation over the years and that is

great but the "haters" of Invicta and some other brands totally discount these watches as junk or near

junk and that is simply not true. Is an Invicta a Breitling or Omega? Certainly not and for the reasons

you state but in terms of value (brand equity aside) can a given model of Invicta (not all of course) be

near the same level of materials and craftsmanship? Yes they can and in the process they lead in design

and value. My final point is one that some will take offense at but as a teacher, I simply cannot afford a

$5k and above time piece but I do want to have watches in my collection that can be of a quality that is

near the high end brands you espouse. Selective Invictas and Androids with my Hammys on the top end

of my collection suit me just fine but if somebody wants to think of them as junk or orders of magnitude

inferior to some of the top tier brands, the facts do not bear this out.

Always happy to split a hair or two! I will certainly agree that, if everything is indeed equal, there is no

difference between a given Invicta and a given Patek - but that is a zero sum equation. If blue is red, then

they're the same color - no comparison can be made. Speaking of splitting hairs though, I'm reminded of

the logical fallacy of the argument of the beard. As a debate coach, you are familiar with it - others may

not be. It goes: If it is agreed that 400 hairs makes a beard, then why not 399? 399 is almost 400 - in fact

it is as close as you can get to 400 without actually reaching it. If you allow 399, then why not 398? 397?

396? Continuing in that way, it can be argued that it really only takes one hair to make a beard - which is

of course absurd. The fallacy lies in the allowance of qualifiers - the "almost" factor. In your argument,

"can be - may be - relatively equal - near the same level" are all qualifiers in this same vein. It either "is"

or it "aint"!

I'm certainly not going to assert that Swiss manufacturers aren't capable of turning out crap - they are.

But I'm equally not going to buy into the "value" argument. Value is no substitute for real world

performance. If the hands fall off, where's the value? How much is that 316L and ETA 2824 worth in that

case? You've made a substantial leap of faith in stating that a particular Invicta, because of its "value" to

be near Breitling and Omega in quality of materials and craftsmanship. Value is always a trade-off and

always involves giving up something for a lower price. Now, I'll ask again - how did you arrive at that

conclusion? Have you actually compared that particular watch to Breitling and Omega? How many orders

of magnitude actually separate your chosen Invicta from them - and how many orders of magnitude

separate Breitling and Omega from Patek Philippe? Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny - as above, so

below.

I certainly understand your desire to have watches in your collection that you can be proud of owning

and I absolutely get that you've got to work within a budget, but you can't make a valid comparison

without actual demonstrable facts. You can't just wish it true. Enjoy your Invictas for what they are - not

what they are not.

__________________

They all wound - the last one kills

(inscribed below a 15th century clock)